Encore: Ep 15 - Molly's Father's Suicide

This week, Molly has always had a critical mother, but even she was shocked when her mom blamed her for her father's recent suicide. We help Molly take the steps to separate truth from fiction and to set boundaries in her life that will free her from her mother's shackles.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear
Guy column for Ted. And this is Dea Therapists. This week,
a woman deals with the fallout after her mother blames
her for her father's suicide. She said, you know why

(00:26):
he killed himself, So she made it sound like she
knew the reason, like he left it in the suicide note. Basically,
I don't believe her anymore. I feel like she's lying.
Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself in the process.
Dea Therapists is for informational purposes only, does not constitute

(00:48):
medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,
or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental
health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions
you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,
you are agreeing to let Ihart Media use it in
Potter and Full, and we may edit it for length.
End a clarity, Hi Guy, Hi Laurie. So this week's

(01:14):
letter just slayed me. It's so painful. I'm gonna read
it to you. Here's how it goes. I'm ready, dear therapists.
My parents and I immigrated to the US when I
was six. I am now forty eight. My parents never
learned English and relied heavily on me, especially since I
was an only child. So I focused on them, drove

(01:37):
them around doctors, dentists, financial advisors, shopping, went through their mail, etc.
When I got married, my parents lived with us, since
I was taught that this was Chinese tradition. Because I
have children now one little disability, my priorities started to shift.
I didn't do things for them immediately like I used to,
even though it would get done, but not in the
urgent manner they were accustomed to. I think my parents

(02:00):
may have felt neglected and lost because of this. In
twenty seventeen, my father took his own life for reasons
I'm not sure about. My aunts and cousins were there
for us during this hard time. I took my mom
to China to visit her sisters that same year, thinking
the trip would help her in her healing. Everything seemed
fine for a while. I would take a day off

(02:20):
work each month to dedicate to her for shopping, eating out,
or visiting with family, in addition to going anywhere as
needed during the week. One day in January twenty nineteen,
as I was driving her to go shopping, she said,
you know why your dad killed himself? And before I
had a chance to say anything, she said, because of you.
You never read our mail and he was so concerned.

(02:42):
I'm sure she said more, but I don't remember the rest.
I confronted her two weeks later because if this was true,
why didn't she blame me earlier. I've been broken since this.
I can't even look at her now, even though she
lives with me, but I feel imprisoned because she has
nowhere else to go. I barely talked to her maybe
two sentences a week. I don't even go to her

(03:03):
doctor appointments with her to translate. I leave it to
the clinic to use the translation line. But I do
drive her in complete silence. She did approach me early
this year. She asked me, now that everything is out,
can we go back to how our relationship was before.
I'm disgusted and insulted that she can even ask me
such a thing. Can you offer me some advice as

(03:23):
to how I can move on. I carry a lot
of hurt and I don't think she cares, because if
she did, she would never have said something so hurtful
to me. Thank you, Molly, Okay, So I can see
why that letter slayed you. This is one of those
where everyone is hurting and everyone is hurting alone. And

(03:44):
that's in part why this is so difficult. What happens
often with immigrant families when they come with a young
child is that that young child becomes very parentified because
they're the ones that have to translate and mediate between
their parents and the world at a young age. So
then their parents become very dependent on the six, seven,
eight year old child, etc. And that of course creates

(04:07):
a whole dynamic unto itself that can be very problematic.
So there is so much here. You're right, there's that
whole experience layered on top of something that often happens
around suicide, which is all of these questions about what
happened and why and what could have been done Had

(04:29):
I known what I have done something differently. But to
say to somebody, especially the daughter, this is your fault,
it's so incredibly toxic because Guilt is such a natural
phenomenon around suicide. People feel like, oh, what if I

(04:50):
had said something? Maybe when they said that thing that
was a hint of it. People go through that in
their heads and search, often without reason, because often the
suicide is about that person, so not about the failure
of anyone around them. So yeah, so to go through
that questioning and then to get that from her mother
is so painful. But she still has to be the
caretaker for her mom despite this. So that's why this

(05:14):
seems like such a torture of aus situation. I feel
like this is going to be a difficult conversation, but
I also hope that we can help her, So let's
bring her in. You're listening to Dea Therapists from iHeartRadio.
We'll be back after a quick break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb

(05:37):
and I'm Guy Wench and this is Dea Therapists. So Hi, Molly, Hi,
thank you for accepting my letter and talking to me today.
Of course you're very welcome, and thank you for coming
on the show. So your letter was really painful to read,
to be honest with you, and so first, our condolence
is about your dad and our condolence is about the situation,

(06:00):
because it really such a painful situation. Thank you, and
I guess we wanted to start by getting a little background,
if that's okay. You came with your parents, you were six,
They didn't speak the language. You probably learned it very
quickly at that age. Could you tell us a little
bit about what life was like for you growing up.
I'm sure all my cousins, my aunts, and my grandmother,

(06:20):
we all came here together and we learned the language.
The little ones and the older ones never really learned,
and they depended upon the younger ones to translate. Well,
can you tell us why your family decided to come here.
My uncle moved here and he thought it was a
good area where we can grow and have freedom and

(06:44):
have choices and not be restricted by the government. And
you know, it's everything he said. The majority of us
have great careers, and that's mainly the reason. When you
were young, all the translating fell to you, whereas with
your cousins there was more than one kid, so they
could probably divvy it up a little bit. But when

(07:06):
you're translating all the time, you're exposed as a young
kid to a lot of things that parents wouldn't ordinarily
expose their young child too, because they don't want them
to know necessarily what's the balance in the bank. In
other words, you have to carry this responsibility of not
just the translation, but of the knowing at an age
where you're really too young to have to deal with it. Right.

(07:29):
And even when my parents their house was broken into,
instead of calling nine to one one, they called me.
So this is basically my life and I didn't know
any different, and I was okay with it until I
got older and I have children, and my priority shifted.
And that's where I feel that maybe they never accepted

(07:52):
that because I always put them first. What they want,
I did it immediately, So I just did as I
was told. And that's also the expectations of our tradition,
our culture. What was your world outside of your family,
If you had any world outside of your family when
you were growing up. Did you have friends at school?

(08:14):
Did you have people come over to the house, did
you go to their houses? Did you participate in extra
curriculars at school? Oh, I mainly hung out with my
cousins and we were always together until maybe junior high school.
I didn't participate in law school activities because my parents
never really encouraged me to do that. I play the piano.

(08:36):
I think that's very very Asian thing. So I did
the piano, but I had wanted to do ballet because
my friends were doing it. If my mom has a
thing where she likes to I think she likes to
say statements just to get a reaction. But I've always
been overweight, and she would instead of telling me no

(09:00):
hand or she does not sign up, she would just say, oh,
you're too fat, You're going to fall and break the floor.
It would just lead to a comment where it's like hurtful,
and she would always say it in front of everybody.
So how would you react when when she would say
things like that. I mean it sounds like maybe it

(09:20):
became something that you got used to in a way,
so it wasn't as surprising, even though it probably was
always painful. It is painful. I mean, you know, who
wants to be reminded that you're overweight, especially as a child.
And she would always say it in front of my
family and to get them to laugh, which I mean
I never laughed. You said, up until junior high, you

(09:43):
mainly hung out with your cousins was our point in
junior high in high school when you started to make
outside friendships. Yes, I did make some friendships, but they
would say, oh, this person's no good, so you can't
be friends with them, or you know, maybe you shouldn't
hang out with this person. So I had a very
small group, which is fine because I'm an introvert anyway,

(10:04):
so I didn't like a big social group. So to me,
that was somewhat normal. I don't know if it is
or not. Well, it's restrictive for sure, right, I mean,
it's quite restrictive because coincidentally, all these things involve you
leaving the house and having your life away from them,
whether it's dancing, whether it's socializing. You know, piano you

(10:26):
practice mostly at home, So somehow there was a way
of keeping you tethered to the home. I could see that.
Did you go away to college and move out of
the house. No, That's the other thing I was resentful
for because I had wanted to see what was out
there for me, but I didn't dare do that because

(10:50):
they relied on me. Who else are they going to call?
So I stayed at home. Resembments build, But again that's
part of my life, so I just let go. If
I didn't have this like rope against me on me,
I wouldn't be with her. Was there a point in
which you actually lived separately from your parents for a

(11:14):
very short time? I did. After I graduated, I went
to Asia because I really wanted to travel. So before I,
you know, got serious and had responsibilities, had had more responsibility,
you had plenty of responsive So I went to Asia
and I traveled for almost a year. But I came

(11:34):
back because it was tax time and they wanted me
to help them with their taxes. So I flew back
because of that. But what was it like then, that
year abroad when you were away from them and you're
truly independent for the first time without all those responsibilities.
What was that night fear? I described that as probably

(11:55):
the happiest time in my life. I didn't have to
do them. Hear about it here the complaints, hear the
constant can you do this, can you do this? Or
you did this wrong? You know, it was just it's
such a great time, so stupid, this it's a great time.

(12:18):
Tell us about the joy of your liberation. Tell us
what brought you so much joy? I think freedom, not
the obligation. I don't have to be told what they
wanted me to do, command what they wanted me, and

(12:39):
not only command, but my mom, which is insults in
top of commands, you know. So it was just nice
to not have to hear that. It's just happiness. Did
you meet friends that year and start to have a
social idea? I met a lot of people, was right,

(13:00):
It was really fun. That was the only period though,
in your life. So you came back, How did you
go into your life? I came back, got a job,
I met my now husband. How did you meet your husband?
I was working for the government. We didn't have any
snacks or anything in the building, so we would have

(13:21):
to go next door take this gas station, and he
was working there, and that's how I met him. And
how did your parents react to the fact that you
had a boyfriend? And what was dating like under those
circumstances where you're living at home and your parents are
relying so heavily on you. Dating it was fine because

(13:44):
I was out of school, so it wasn't as though
I had to focus on my schoolwork or anything. But
I think they would prefer that I would marry an
Asian person, so that was probably their dislike how vocal
is the disapproval. Ever since I was a child, they
always said, you should marry somebody Asian, and that's gonna

(14:05):
understand our tradition, our language, our culture, which I think
is kind of common. And I understood that. But you
bring me to Florida and there's not a lot of
Chinese specifically, so it's not like I'm in New York
at California, So I think that was unfair. How do

(14:26):
you know that they had reservations about him? They repetitively said,
if you dated an Asian person, this person would understand.
This is what you do with elderly you respect them.
So it was constantly you should married an Asian person
so they would understand and we could communicate also better
with them. So they don't speak much English at all,

(14:50):
so they can't really have a conversation with exactly. Yeah,
so you translate. Is that what happens when you're all together?
I would translate, But honestly, they didn't talk that much
to each other, or still don't, so you're kind of
in the middle of meeting. Always it's not your parents
and the authority, but now it's your parents and your husband.

(15:11):
Ye again, you get stuck with that duty of your
this essential component your parents life. Yeah, that's my life.
So when you get married, since you were living with
your parents, was it now the four of you find
a place and move in together or was there some
time that you had just the two of you? So
I moved in with my fiance at the time for

(15:33):
less than a year, and then we bought a house,
and then maybe two months later they sold their house
and they were anxious to move in. Did you and
your husband talk about the fact that your parents were
coming to live with you and how did he feel
about all of it? I told him at the beginning,
I said, we're a package deal. And I said, you know,

(15:54):
I understand it's not something you expect in the US,
but I said that this is going to happen, and
if you can't handle it, I understand. He was okay
with it because it would be also like um live
in babysitters. So the four of you living together, in

(16:15):
what ways does your husband take care of you? He
was comforting to me whenever I'm upset with them. He's
my best friend too, But I also didn't want to
bring too much to him. My problems of my parents
because that would make him upset. So I kind of

(16:36):
had to just keep it to myself. I would speak
to some friends, but really nobody understands. Nobody understands that
it's a lonely place to be when you're going through
something so intense your entire life and there's no one
around who truly get it. It is what I'm hearing
in all of this is your isolation. That you came

(17:02):
here as a child, You took care of your parents,
You had to be what we call a parentified child,
which means you took on a lot of responsibilities that
normally would be in the adult sphere as a child.
And then you grow up, you experience some period of

(17:23):
time where you are abroad and you get to kind
of say, oh, this is who I am. But then
you're brought back into this right so you got out
of the isolation a little bit. You started to make friends,
you started to make connections, you started to make a
connection to yourself, and then it was about, oh, I'm
going to disappear again in the service of all of

(17:45):
my other responsibilities. And then you meet this guy and
you're kind of isolated again. Even though he loves you,
and he's very supportive because there's this whole family dynamic
where if you talk to him too much about your
frustration with your parents and he's living in the house
with your parents, that might cause some problems. And I

(18:07):
imagine it's isolating too, because you probably don't have a
lot of privacy in terms of just being married and
being a parent without your parents interfering in some way.
So when your father was alive, what was their relationship
like with your children and did they did they respect

(18:29):
you as the mother of your children, meaning without interfering. Well,
things got worse after I had kids because they took
on the parent role because they were with them all day.
I think they really forget that they were the caretakers
and not the parents. Like nighttime, you're supposed to teach
them to soothe themselves to sleep. So I would wait

(18:53):
outside their door. And this is Western style, so Western
style doesn't connect with their Eastern style. So when my
son was crying, I remember one time she came down
the hallway pushed me out of the way to get
to his room and pick him up. At one point
she would tell me, just because you gave birth doesn't
make you a mother, So that was very hartful to me.

(19:17):
So you know, these these comments are so devastatingly cruel. Yeah,
it was very artful. Yeah. Sometimes when she made these
comments and my dad would hear them, he was the
one that would apologize to me. He's like, you know,

(19:39):
your mom didn't really mean that. She's just saying that,
so you know, don't don't be mad, because he was
always the one that apologized for her. Did she make
comments like that to your dad as well? I'm sure.
I'm very sure she did, because they're always bickering and

(19:59):
I would all here my dad say the first one
says it wins, but in cantonese. So I'm thinking she
probably said something outrageous to him, and that's that's probably
why he submits that comment. You know, Molly, I'm thinking
about the fact that you grew up with a mom

(20:21):
who had really cruel comments and a lot of them,
and that I'm thinking of you growing up and thinking,
but this is just how it is. This is my life,
this is my responsibility. This is just how it is.
Without feeling any avenue in which you get to rebel,

(20:42):
find comfort for it, get someone to tell you no,
that's not okay, that's not reasonable. You were so alone
in this, and you probably were wondering for many years
is she cruel? Or am I just sensitive? Or like
what's going on over there? And I think you're still
living that life than that one year in Asia. You've
been shackled all the time by expectation, by tradition, by culture,

(21:05):
by obligation, whatever it is. And when you're shackled, you
can say, wait, this is not okay because you just
don't feel like you have an option. Even today, it
doesn't seem like there's a lot of opportunity for you
to really express get support, get vnidation. I did talk
to my two cousins, and I was hoping that they

(21:27):
would understand, and it really heard me that they took
her side, and all they said to me was just
just let it go. Just forget about it. She's old,
she has diabetes. I don't know what that has to
do with it, but she's old. Just let it go.
You're you're overthinking it, basically. So they're referring to what

(21:49):
to the comment, to the comment that she made about
your the cause of your suicide, right, That's what they said, Yeah,
just let it go. It's fine, just that's she's just old.
She doesn't even know what she's she does know what
she's saying because she's been saying your whole life. This
might have been sort of those comments on steroids, but

(22:13):
it wasn't out of character. No, it wasn't an isolated
comment where you can say, well, maybe she's getting old
and there's something going on neurologically with her. This was
pretty consistent with the way that she's spoken to your
whole life. And what makes this even more painful is

(22:36):
that it was your father who would be the voice
of reason in this, who could see you. He was
the one who said, I'm sorry she said that, even
if he didn't stand up to her, he acknowledged that
it was not okay what she said. And now this
comment is about your father. So not only is he
not here as the one person who acknowledged that what

(23:01):
she was saying was not okay, but he's not here,
and the comment is about your aliming. Yeah, And you
know what the thing is, she never even apologize or anything.
Because she doesn't apologize, that's just her thing, and he's
not here to apologize for her anymore. So I had

(23:21):
to actually confront her. So when she said it, that
was driving. She just made this offhand comment when I
was driving her to go shopping. It's like, who says that?
So what happened right after she said that. It sounds
like you didn't react to it. In the moment. It
was probably quite shocking. But between the time of the
comment and two weeks later when you confronted her, the

(23:44):
two of you pretended it didn't happen. Les's very common
with her. She'll say something very shocking and it acts
as though nothing ever happened. So I think I was
still processing it because it's such a shocking statement that
anybody can make, especially to their child. I can't even
imagine myself making those comments to my child. Did you

(24:06):
tell your husband? I told my husband and he was
just he apologized. He's like, no, you didn't do anything
like that, So he's very upset. But I told her
not to say anything because I really can't handle like
my feud with her and then him having a feud
with her. So I said, please just don't talk to

(24:27):
her because I can't handle more conflict. It was just
too much. There's a certain expectation that you have only
that your role is always to mediate. Your role is
always to make sure everything's okay, And unfortunately, in this
case and maybe in others, what it did is it
actually locked your husband from being able to be as

(24:49):
supportive as he wanted to be and as you needed
him to be, because if he had a feud with
her over this as well, he would have been aligned
with you. And I think because you're so used to
feeling the obligation and responsibility to take care of the
people around you, you miss out on his being at

(25:09):
your side, supporting you, getting the same message, and really
feeling that you're not alone in this. I guess I'm
just afraid of a blow up because he would be
in her face and she wouldn't even know what she's
talking about. Maybe I just feel bad for her because
I've always been her protector, you know, so that's just

(25:35):
my role, so it's hard for me to let that go,
especially she's getting older. There's nobody else speaking up for her,
so I feel bad. You want to be her protector,
but when someone offers to protect you, you decline. So

(25:56):
when your husband could be there to tect you, you're
worried that then you will be protecting your mother, Yeah,
it's messed up. Well, I think what it is is
is the parentified child again, as the child feels that
intense responsibility that I have to protect my parents from

(26:17):
all of the things in this new land where they
don't understand anything. I have to help them acclimate, I
have to protect them from everything. And then you become
an adult and you don't realize that you might need
protecting too, And so I wonder, what are you actually
protecting her from from being heard? Because she lives in

(26:39):
this bubble where everybody speaks for her, drives her places,
you know, and does everything for her and keep her
in this bubble. And I guess that's just my role
is to continue this keeping her in this bubble, because
I'm not really sure how to do anything else other
than that. But the unfortunate part of that is that

(27:04):
you didn't have that as a kid. You had to
squelch your own feelings because there was no outlet for them.
There's no point in recognizing how upset you are, how
hurt you are, how limited you feel, because there's nothing
you can do about it. So you just are not
used to asking yourself, but what about my feelings? Not
just what about hers, what about mine? And I think

(27:24):
that still carries over that her needs loom so large
in front of you, and your needs are going to
have to wait, and they've been waiting for a long
time now. And when I think about your feelings that
have been squelched, your father died, and he died in
a really, really painful way. Suicide is one of these

(27:46):
things where families often have so many questions, what happened?
What was really going on? Could we have seen signs
of this? Was that a cry for help? That's what
happens in families with suicide so often. And then on
top of that, the person isn't there anymore, So you've
lost the person that you love. And I wonder how

(28:09):
you have before this comment, how you grieved your father's stuff.
I didn't know that it was going to happen because
he's just always so quiet. You just never know what's
going on with him. All he does was eat, read
his newspaper, watch TV, and that's pretty much his basic life.

(28:30):
And my mom always did the talking, so you always
know about her, but you never really know about him
unless you ask him. And sometimes when I asked him,
she would speak for him, and I would have to
remind her, like, I'm not asking you, I'm asking him.
I guess maybe I don't know why he did that, Molly.
I'm not asking why he did it, although I'm pretty

(28:52):
sure it's not the answer your mother gave you. But
what I'm asking is how you grieved the loss of
your time. Oh how I agreed, Mia, just cried for
a long time, mostly my car when I was driving
to work. So by yourself, did your husband ever hold

(29:17):
you or see you cry? I think I'm shy about
my feelings and crying in front of him because I
didn't want him make him feel bad. Yeah that's not shy, Molly.
That's that I need to make sure everyone else's feelings
are okay. Mine don't matter, And I'm the protector for everyone,
but no one's the protector for me. When you grow

(29:39):
up and you can't express your feelings, and if you do,
you don't get validation, you get criticism for it, you
learn pretty quickly not to express your feelings, and you
can carry that into adulthood, so that even though there
is now someone in your life who wants to be
there for you, who wants to protect you, who wants
to help soothe your feelings and you're not fully letting him.

(30:00):
Isn't it okay just to cry privately or feel so privately.
There's a difference between having some private moments too mourn
and feeling like there's no one who can really understand
you or support you, and that's why you're crying alone
in your car. I think what's going on as you
felt like your mourning would be a burden on your husband.

(30:21):
So it wasn't just I'm choosing to grieve in the car,
which of course people do. It was I'm grieving in
the car because if I do it anywhere else, I
will upset other people. I will be a burden to them. Dude,
I can see that. I mean, I didn't want him
to feel like he had to cheer me up or something.

(30:42):
So why But this is exactly this is what it's
correct with Laurie's saying that is this feeling of asking
anyone to have a response to your feelings is burdening them.
I think in some ways this is how you felt
as a child, that the burden was on you to

(31:02):
make sure your parents were happy, and you didn't like
that for the reasons. That makes sense, right, You were
a kid, wasn't your job, And as an adult, you
don't want to put your husband in that situation because
your idea of giving support is wrapped up in this
experience as a child. And so now when you think

(31:25):
about your husband having that responsibility for you, you have
negative associations with it, as opposed to the positive associations
of what it means to be close to somebody, what
it means to sit with them in their pain, what
it means to see them in their loss, in their grief.
That's intimacy. Growing up, that wasn't intimacy. It was responsibility

(31:48):
and burden. And you're confusing that with what it would
be if your husband gave that to you. If he
gave that to you, it wouldn't be responsibility and burden.
It would be love starting pull him into my black hole.
Usually a spouse who loves you wants to be able

(32:08):
to be there for you, maybe not fall into a
black hole, but to be able to pull you out
of one. Yeah, I just I guess my thought is like, well,
he didn't ask for this, so I don't want to
make his day bad or something. I don't know. It's
just if he lost a parent, and he was really

(32:30):
upset and he wanted your support. Would you in any
way feel like, oh, he's making my day difficult now,
Like would that even cross your mind? No? No, I'm
that's right because you love him. I guess maybe if
she didn't live here, maybe I would turn to him

(32:50):
a little more. But I feel like if she's here,
I have to be stronger. Why that's the most important
reason mother to turn to him, because she's there, and
that's why you need his support. I think I just
feel sorry for her. She is like nobody's one of

(33:12):
the things you feel is sorry. I think you have
a lot of anger, and you have a lot of guilt,
and that's a perfect storm of things to come together
to make you feel like I don't know what I'm
going to do with these things. They're so big. And
I think that's the theme of what's going on with

(33:33):
a lot of people in your family, or this feeling
of being trapped. So your parents brought you here, but
now they're trapped because without you they can't manage, and
you feel trapped because now you're the only one who
can help them manage. And so now you feel trapped,
and your husband might feel a little bit trapped because
you're the package deal. He signed up for it and

(33:54):
all of that. But you know he wants to help you.
He sees what goes on, he sees that you get
upset sometimes, but he's not free to be there for you,
to support you in the way that he would like to.
So there's a lot of feeling of helplessness, of feeling
trapped like this. This is a terrible situation and there's
nothing that can be done to change any of it.

(34:14):
It's pretty much explains it. I'm wondering about where you
are with your children and what's the day to day
like with that? And you smiled, men, and I said,
your children. So tell me about your children. Tell me
about your relationships with them. My son just learned to
drive these sixteen. He's really a good kid. My daughter,

(34:35):
she has a disability. She goes to a charter school.
She's doing well too. And I think sometimes it's hard
because they see the tension between me and my mom.
What was the kid's reactions to their grandfather's death. Do
they know that it was a suicide? And they must
have been very close with him because your mom and

(34:57):
your father were the caretakers for your kids growing up.
My daughter, I think because of her disability, she doesn't understand.
My son took it really hard. He was very close
to my dad, but I guess he just kind of
pushes it aside. I told him, my son, you know,
he just wasn't happy he took his life, and we

(35:20):
don't know what's the reason. We may never know, but
it's not anybody's fault. So I told him, you know,
if he has any questions, he can always ask me.
But I don't. I don't know what to tell him.
I don't know myself. That's beautiful how you talk to
him about it. It was so honest and so authentic,

(35:43):
and unlike your mother's comment, so true. We don't know
he was struggling. We don't know why, and this is
so hard, and for a family that doesn't talk, to
give him permission to ask about it and say things
come up, you can ask, is such an important edition
that you put in there? Well, what I did learn

(36:05):
is that I don't want to be like her, so
I try to be the opposite. You're trying to give
your kids a lot of what you needed as a child. Probably, man,
how old is your mom? Seventy seven? Are there any
options for her to live anywhere? I did bring that
up or not whether she would agree to it, But

(36:27):
what are the theoretically the options. I told her the
best option is to live with my aunt, who's also
a widow, and they call each other like ten times
a day, and I said, it's perfect. You guys both
you know, can gossip and talk and you do whatever
you guys do instead in person, and I would just

(36:49):
pay her rent, but she doesn't want to do that
because she is very comfortable and set in her way.
Does your aunt live by herself? She does. She lives
by herself. So that's very interesting because what you've said
is that you grew up hearing that dutiful children have

(37:11):
their parents lived with them throughout the lifespan, and yet
your cousins said, hey, mom, here's a great apartment for you,
and your aunt seems to be quite content living the
way she does. I guess the way you're formulating this
in your head is that, well, that wouldn't happen because

(37:32):
my mom wouldn't agree to go live with my aunt. However,
right now, what's happening is that you are agreeing for
your mom to live with you it's your home. I'm
not sure you see that this is actually not her
call to make necessarily, but yours kick her out. Look,

(37:56):
you say that very harshly. I would maybe think more
of ease her out. I'm not even saying that's the thing,
but I'm just pointing out that you're the one who
has the control or the power of that decision, and
there are options in between that, like, if you're going
to live here, we need to make this a harmonious place, right,

(38:17):
There are a lot of options. Whereas you're presenting this
as this is the situation, it's immutable and I just
have to suck it up and find a way to
deal with it. I want to ask you one more
thing about what's happened since your mom made that comment.
What did she say to you in that conversation? So

(38:38):
she made it sound like she knew the reason, like
he left it in the suicide note. There was a
side suicide note which you didn't see only she did. Yes,
And I was talking to my therapist about that note
in having it translated, and she asked me, if I
really want to do that, do you kind of? I

(39:05):
guess I'm scared. Two, I feel like waiver you know,
should I should I not? If I know? And if
it's true, can I you know, can I deal with that?
And if it's not, I guess. If it's not, it's
it's fine. But if it is, because why does she

(39:26):
just suddenly say that too? But is there a value
add in translating the note? There's a downside potentially if
that's what's in there. But is there a upside maybe
that you can say, don't blame yourselfselves. He loved us
and it's not your fault. So you know, you said

(39:48):
that your dad was somebody who you didn't know a
lot about because your mother spoke for him. Whenever you
tried to ask how he was doing, she would answer
for him. He was very quiet. Can you imagine a
scenario in which your father suffered from depression? Yeah, he

(40:10):
was just a quiet person. So I don't know if
like depression meant quiet or quiet meant depression. I have
a question about what happened right after his death, because
she brought this up about a year or two later.
When somebody kills themselves, often people start to wonder, They

(40:32):
talk why why did this happen? What was the conversation
in your family. Did you and your mother or your cousins,
or your aunts or anybody have a conversation around just
why you thought this had happened. Did you ever say
to your mom at that time? What did he say
in the note? Did you ever ask? She told me
it wasn't my business. She really didn't say anything like why.

(40:57):
She would just tell my aunt's like, oh, I think
he wasn't feeling good. But there was a note, and
she didn't share it with your aunt's. She didn't share
it with your cousin. She didn't share it with anybody body.
What strikes me about her comment is that I think
it's really her very mixed up, an indirect way of

(41:18):
telling you that she is unhappy with the care that
you're giving her, the amount of attention that you're paying
to her. And so she said something quite provocative, Your
father wasn't getting this from you, and he killed himself.

(41:38):
I think she was really speaking for herself, which was
I'm not getting this and I am furious. Yeah, I
can see that. I could see that I do so
much for her. She doesn't drive, so I drive her everywhere.
I make her doctor's appointments, I do in the prescription

(42:00):
I buy stuff for her, I take her out to eat,
take her to my aunt's house. Everything you can think of,
I do. I even did it after my father passed away,
because he was driver and everything. So I picked up
the slack where he left off. So how I'm not
doing things for her? I mean, that's a private butler.

(42:22):
Here's something that happens when reality is distorted from a
very young age. So your mother says, you can't do
ballet because you're overweight. Nothing's good enough. Even if you're
doing something, you did it wrong. And so reality gets
distorted and you're saying, look at all these things I
did for her, how could she possibly think that? Yeah,

(42:42):
and you're trying to reconcile reality, which is you do
a tremendous number of things for her. With her way
of going through life, which is nothing measures up right,
she's disappointed in everyone and everything. So you're never going
to win that case. You're right, you know, Exhibit A,

(43:03):
Exhibit B, Exhibit C. It doesn't matter. You will lose
that case in the jury of your mother. You're absolutely right.
One of the reasons you'll lose the case is because
in your mother's head, your feelings and needs are not
a mediating facia. It wasn't. But she's a child. She
wants to do balletter, to go have some fun. She's

(43:24):
here on duty all the time. It never factored in.
So that's why you can never win the case. There's
no mediation there for your needs, your feelings, your side
of things, only what she needs. You're right, and that's
why I feel as though the purpose of my life
was to serve her, and there's like nothing else. So

(43:49):
when you confronted her, did you tell her how much
that hurt you? No? I didn't tell her. Why not?
It's because I think it's logical, you know, Oh you
think what's logical if you accuse somebody of you know,
hurting your father, that it's logical. That is painful that

(44:15):
I shouldn't have to say that, right, right, But you
didn't say it because it never mattered to her whether
it was hurtful to you or so. Earlier this year
I said to her, I said, why would you say
something like that? And she gave me gibbers. She goes,
I know you didn't do anything. It was all my fault.

(44:35):
Can we just go back to the way it was?
It was just so nonchalant, you know, like, let's just
put it under the rug like it never happened. And
I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it.
Be all my fault. I wonder if there's a part
of her that feels like she's to blame. Yeah, I

(44:56):
probably think it is, because if I was my dad,
I probably will have left her. She would accuse him
of having an affair. My dad never left the house,
he didn't speak English. He'll leave the house having an
the fair taking money from their account. That is not

(45:18):
even believable at all. You said that your mother behaves
like and probably believes that your purpose in life is
to serve her. And I want to know whether you
still believe that or whether you're willing to put that
aside and that and redefine what your purpose is in

(45:41):
a way that doesn't limit you to serving her. I
think it's hard now to put that aside, especially since
she's older. But this is what happens in your thinking, Molly.
It goes to either I serve her completely or am
abandoning her. I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm saying
that that purpose, that number one directive of must serve

(46:03):
mom is what she thinks your number one directive in
life should be, and you live like that innocence, And
I'm asking if you're willing to adjust that, not abandon her,
but adjust it so that it is not your soul
or primary purpose in life, and maybe only a minor
secondary one. I would like to adjust that. I think

(46:27):
the only way I can adjust it is if she leaves,
because when she's here is a constant reminder of all
the hurt and anger and burden that she is on me.
Maybe I can ask my cousin if she can move
in with my aunt, and then he can ask my
aunt about it. Molly, we do have some advice for you,

(47:04):
and it comes from the place in which we feel
like you've been trapped really your whole life, and it's
time for you to escape the trap. It's time for
you to be free to truly parent the way you want,
attend to your needs the way you want, and not
to have to live with a parent breathing down your

(47:25):
neck who's a cruel parent because you're no longer a child.
You feel really trapped because our duty is for her
to live with us. But you also know how to
go against that expectation because you ended up marrying someone
who wasn't Chinese, so you've already done a bit of that.
So what we want you to do this week if

(47:48):
you want you to have a talk with your mom
and which you let her know that Mom, I don't
think this is working well at all. You're living here,
it's tense, our relationship has gone downhill. We're barely speaking,
and I don't think it's good for either of us,
and it's not good for our relationship. And so I

(48:09):
want you to go and live with that aunt and
I will continue doing things for you. I'll take care
of you in most of the ways that I already do.
I'm not abandoning you, but I want you to live there,
and we want you to also say to her and
ma'am to be clear, if that doesn't work out, we'll

(48:31):
find another arrangement. I think that's the best option for you.
But if that doesn't work out, we'll find another option.
It might not be as good, just so that she's
not too motivated to go and sabotage that option. And
once she is moved, then you will continue to do
for her what you can do for her. But if

(48:52):
she's cruel to you. At that point, then you'll get
to say to her, Mum, I am doing these things
for you because I know you need me to do
these things for you. But if you keep being cruel
to me, I will not be that motivated to do them.
You have to be kinder to me. We want you

(49:12):
to set limits without going forward with the cruelty that
you don't have to put up with it. You don't
have to absorb it, you don't have to hear those
horrible things that you can't then and here FEELI she
would refuse. Okay, I'm glad you brought that up, because

(49:34):
it's not her care, Molly, and that has been part
of your problem. Your problem is you are convinced that
the cage you see around you as real, and it's
not because it is your care. Whether she lives with you,
it is your home what I call a corps where

(49:55):
she refuses to move. I don't think we're there yet.
I think that she is going to unleash her cruelty
on you if she is displeased with this, and she
will be displeased with this, so you want to prepare
for that. If she's already at a ten, it's going

(50:16):
to go to one hundred very quickly. Or she will
do the opposite, and she will do everything to be
incredibly kind to you and say, look, no we get along, well,
look this works out great, and and she'll try to
get in your good graces. Neither of those things changes
the fact that you deserve to live your life. And

(50:41):
I want to emphasize again, you are not abandoning her.
You're still going to be doing all the things that
you do for her. You know what you want, but
you're so afraid to give yourself something in life. It's true,
it's all about everybody else, and this is not abandoning
your mother. This is where you have to really reframe

(51:03):
this and change your mindset that has been so indoctrinated
in you from a very early age that your purpose
in life is to serve your parents. You're still going
to be doing a tremendous amount for your mom and
feeling resentful about it. Yes, yes, all you're saying is
this arrangement is not working. The thing that I think

(51:27):
is hard for you to wrap your mind and heart
around is this idea that you're not just abandoning your mom,
but you're abandoning your culture. And we don't want to
lose sight of a cultural piece, which is yes, there
is a very strong mandate to take care of your parents,

(51:53):
but that doesn't mean that when you are subjected to
such extreme cruelty on a regular base, that you can't
help to define for yourself what taking care of your
mom meets. So you're still protecting that cultural heritage. We
do want you to have your husband on standby before

(52:17):
and after that conversation, because you will need someone who
you convent to or cry to, or will talk you
down about the guilt and say no, no no, no, You've
been an amazing daughter. You deserve to have a life.
We deserve to have a life, but you will need
support leading up to it and certainly right after. Okay,
what is the worst case scenario of having that conversation

(52:41):
with your mother just probably towing me I'm like a
horrible daughter, I'm useless. Yeah, she will yep, she'll tell
you all that. Yeah, I don't even know why, or
keep birth to you. You're just horrible mother. You know,
it is very difficult to set limits. It's somebody who's

(53:03):
treating you very poorly when they don't think they're treating
you poorly because they look at you like, what are
you talking about? You're being the terrible person. Now it's
not exactly gas lighting, because that's her perception, but it
is very bizarre world in the sense of no, you
are the one that's put up with her cruelty. Making

(53:23):
it stop is not cruel Making somebody who treats you
very poorly stop doing it is not a cruelty on
your part. It's essential. I know I kind of knew it.
It's been there. I know she has to leave. I

(53:43):
just always proprastinated. And now you have a week. Part
two of the advice is we want to talk about
the grieving that you're doing and the grieving that maybe
still needs to be done for the loss of your father.
And you're talking about how you go in the car
and you cry in the car and you don't really

(54:06):
share your loss with him. So we want you to
share your grief and loss with him even a little bit,
so that instead of pushing away the very thing you
wanted so badly as a child, you have it right here,
and we want you to taste it a little bit.
And so we want you to say to him, I

(54:27):
still think about my dad a lot. I'm so sad
about my dad. I miss my dad. Here's what's going on,
and have him be there. That's part of the grieving,
and the other part of the grieving is we feel
like you need the truth about what happened with your
father inasmuch as you can get it, and we feel
like that note is very important. So reading that note

(54:48):
will be very painful, but it won't be as painful
as not knowing the truth. I think he left two notes,
because one she says she found in the medicine bottle,
and then when I went to go pick up because
he had committed suicide in this car, and there was
another note when I went to go pick up the

(55:09):
stuff from the sheriff's office. I have another one. I
don't know if it's duplicated, but you haven't had the
one you have translated correct. So what we'd like you
to do this week is have the conversation with your mother,
let us know how that felt, not just what happened,
but how it felt for you, and then what arrangements

(55:30):
have been made. And we'd like you to share a
little bit of your grief with your husband so that
you're not hiding that piece of you from him, and
we would like you to see if you can investigate
options for getting the letter translated by somebody who is
not involved with your family, so that you could tell

(55:52):
us what it was like for you to really find
out directly what your father left behind. Okay, And if
you do get it translated, Molly, we would like you
to read the translationship with your husband at your side.
You will need that support. Okay, I'm afraid let us
in there, but okay, So the thing is, you talk

(56:16):
about being afraid of what's in there, but I think
what's even scarier is that if you don't find out
what's in there, you will live with the pain of wondering.
All right, Okay, all right, all right, thank you so much.

(56:43):
Molly has been in prison her entire life, in servitude
really to her mom, to her dad, in that role
that she had to play. She then became an adult,
moved out, moved in with her husband, and moved to
prison in with her She doesn't realize that she is free.
That happened so often where people are imprisoned as children

(57:03):
and then they grow up and they don't realize that
they are their own jailers now. And we kept saying
to her, it's your call whether she lives with you,
and I think that's going to be a big shift
for her. And the other part of it is that
I really want her to do some grieving because her
dad was the parent who saw her, who noticed that

(57:23):
the mother was talking to her in a way that
was abusive, and I think she lost her ally when
he died and in such a tragic way. So I
really hope that she can talk to her husband about
her grief, and I hope that she can have the
courage to translate that letter so that she has the
truth once and for all. You're listening to Dear Therapist

(57:52):
from My Heart Radio. We'll be back after a quick break.
So guy, we heard back from Molly. And to be honest,
this is one where I think maybe people don't realize

(58:14):
that his therapists. We're really rooting for people, and with
a delicate situation like this, sometimes we can be a
little bit apprehensive about what might happen. And this is
one of those situations where I really want to hear
what happened, and I'm also a little bit nervous, quite frankly,
to hear what happened. Yeah, anything we would have suggested

(58:36):
that we think would have been useful, would have been
painful and difficult to do, and really hoping it went
well because it's going to be painful one way or
the other. All right, well, let's listen to it. Hi,
Laurie and Guy. I just wanted to give you an
update on my homework. My friend translated the suicide note.
She told me that his mental and physical health was improving,

(59:01):
so he decided to take upon himself to make this
decision to take his life, and he didn't want to
be a burden to his family. Number two is leaning
on my husband. I have been doing that a lot
more often now, so that's been going well. Number three
is getting my mom out. I have had some guilt

(59:23):
in doing that, but I know that just to have
her leaf is the best thing. I went to her
on Sunday morning and I asked I told her that
I was really unhappy. I couldn't stand the sight of her,
and I really hated living with her. I was very upset,
and I told her that she really should live with

(59:45):
my aunt. But she refuses to live with my aunt
for whatever reason. So it seems like we're going to
have to find some money and find her some housing,
and don't worry, it will be done soon because I
need her out for my own well being, so that
will be done within a couple of weeks. I'm looking

(01:00:05):
into some finances, and once she has that money, she
is to leave. I want to thank you guys for
helping me, giving me the push, giving me all the advice,
and spending that time with me. Thank you so much.

(01:00:27):
So wow, this must have been an unimaginably hard week
for Mollie. She got the letter translated, which is something
that I think had been this big question mark weighing
over her. She shared some of her inner life with

(01:00:49):
her husband, which I'm really glad she was able to do,
and she took action with her mother. Now, the thing
is that I noticed in her response that she had
like one sentence about, yeah, I got the letter translated
and here's what it said, and yeah, I talked to
my husband and here's what happened. There was no emotion
in that at all, and I thought that was really notable.

(01:01:13):
And then we didn't suggest that she say to her mother,
you know, I can't stand to look at you that.
We didn't want it to be positioned in that way.
But I think what happened was she must have had
a reaction to seeing that the letter really did vindicate her,
and then feeling even more anger at her mother for

(01:01:35):
putting her through that psychological torture of this was your fault,
your father killed himself because of you, which was blatantly untrue.
And I'll bet she was so angry relieved first of
all that was not true, but then really grasping with
the reality of my mother tortured me psychologically in that

(01:01:57):
way with this lie. I think made it hard for
her to contain that anger when she asked her mother
to move out. I agree with you, and I think
the other thing that made it hard for her to
contain her anger is that she had to stuff down
so much resentment, so much anger over the years, and

(01:02:17):
I think that at the point where she's allowing herself
to get in touch with it, because she's allowing herself
to act on it, and then it bursts out in
a volcanic kind of stream, right, And I think we
should go back to that cultural piece, which is that
maybe in another culture, the kinds of comments that her
mother made would be maybe harsh, but not abusive, And

(01:02:43):
so I think we have to be sensitive to the
culture in which the mother grew up, because it might
be that from the mother's point of view, she was
being helpful to her daughter. She was saying, Look, these
are the things you can improve on. We don't know,
but we do know that Molly, from a young age
grew up here and really did not like the criticisms,

(01:03:08):
did not like the responsibility, and did not feel like
she ever got to have a life of her own.
I do think she was caught between two worlds her
entire life. The obligation from the cultural Chinese perspective of
you must take care of your parents, especially when they
sacrificed so much and they don't speak the language and
they're dependent on you. There was such a strong demand

(01:03:29):
for that, in such a strong expectation, she internalized it completely,
and I think that this made her take the step
towards yes, I might be bicultural, that nice standards are
these standards. The other thing, too, is that she's seeing
as she moves closer to her husband, what reciprocity in
a relationship looks like, what empathy looks like. One of

(01:03:51):
the things we were talking with her about was about
grieving her father's death, and part of that was getting
the truth, and part of that was to be able
to have the space without her mother's voice in her
head and without the guilt and without the question about
her responsibility in it. And now that she's able to
talk about that more with her husband and to sit

(01:04:12):
with that with herself, I think she's going to have
a lot of room to do that. It's going to
be really hard, and it's really painful, but far less
painful than not being able to feel those feelings and
then also to feel like maybe she had a role
in this. And one last thing, I'll say, I did
not expect that she would pull all of this off

(01:04:34):
so quickly. The amount of emotional strength it required for
her to do the things that she's been fighting against
all her life to finally do these things, I think
it was remarkable what she pulled off. I'm just blown away.
When we were listening to her voicemail, you and I
were looking at each other in just awe that she

(01:04:57):
was able to accomplish so much in a week. I
think it's been long overdue, and she was ready to
do something. But sometimes people are ready to do something
and then when it comes to actually executing it, they
get cold feet, and she didn't. I think this is
the beginning of a new chapter in her life that
is going to feel very different and very positive for her.

(01:05:19):
It's a new chapter, but it might even feel like
a new life entirely, and to the extent that it does,
I hope it feels like a great one. Hey, fellow travelers,
if you've used any of our advice from the podcast
in your own life, send us a quick voice memo
to Lori and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell

(01:05:39):
us about it. We may include it in a future show.
Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show,
please take a moment to rate and review it. You
can follow us both online. I'm at Lori Gottlieb dot
com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lori
Gottlieb one or on Instagram at Lori Gottlieb Underscore Author,

(01:05:59):
and I at Guyinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and
on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd
like to discuss with us, big or small, email us
at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive producers,
Christopher Hasiotis were produced and edited by Mike John's Special
thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy Godmother

(01:06:23):
Katie Curuk. And next Week, a man feels guilty that
he isn't connecting enough with his mother in another country
during COVID. Oh and he's not just any fellow traveler.
He's a special guest that you may already know. We
expect our parents, or at least for some parts of
our lifestyle. There are superheroes and then often the roles
reverses we get older. And one of the things that

(01:06:43):
I've noticed in that role reversal is there can be
a lot of feelings of guilt. Dear Therapist is a
production of iHeartRadio.