June 18, 2024 • 31 mins
Hello, Fellow Travelers. This week we explore the challenges of blending families together. Priscilla is struggling to deal with her boyfriend’s six-year-old daughter and is wondering if it's even possible to build a relationship with the girl who constantly says she hates her.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write a Dear
Guy column for Ted And this is Dear Therapists. This
week we'll talk about the challenges of blending families together
when young children are involved and say, oh, everything is
(00:26):
going fine. Maybe says going to be a good day,
and I certainly don't know what to say when she's like,
I hate you. Get away from me, listen in and
maybe learn something about yourself in the process. Hi Laurie,
Hey Guy, Ready for this week's letter. I am great
Dear Therapists. I've been dating a single dad for two years.
(00:47):
We've known each other for thirteen years, and we've reconnected
after our divorces. I do not have any kids and
his are six and eight. We do not live together,
and I see them two to three weekends a month.
His son, he is eight, he's a sweetheart. His daughter,
the six year old, she hates me one minute and
loves me ten minutes later. This rollercoaster usually lasts throughout
(01:10):
the weekend. She says mean things like I'm fatter than
her mom, or I make crappy grilled cheese, or that
she reminds me constantly that I'm not her mom and
I can't tell her what to do. Even though I
don't discipline, I follow all the books that say not to.
I'm not trying to be her mom at all. So
how do I help this little girl with a divorce
or me? Oh, how do I at least try to
(01:32):
survive it? Being in my position? I feel like I
should love her, but I don't even like her most days.
Signed Priscilla. So blended families, even though they're not married.
Let's call them a blended family because that's basically what
they are operating as. And they're really hard because in
any relationship, you're navigating the couple itself, but there are
(01:54):
all these other people involved. You have exces and children involved,
and the children are integral part of the couple's relationship.
And learning families takes time, often as he years before
the family can feel, you know, fully comfortable and that
they've made the transition. And that's when it's happening almost
full time. Here, she's there just a few weekends a month.
(02:15):
But what I think is that she's underestimating how it's going.
The fact that the boy is fine with her, the
fact that the little girl, ten minutes after she says
I hate you, says I love you and it's cool
with her, And I think she's perhaps having too high
a bar of how it should go. Yeah, she's thinking
to herself, well, why is the girl acting this way
(02:36):
when I'm doing nothing to try to be her mom?
And she can't imagine the kid's point of view instead
of thinking about why is she accusing me of things
that I'm not doing? To try to understand what is
actually going on with this little girl, right, And I
think that the only way she can fully understand the
little girl's point of view is to understand the mom's
(02:58):
point of view, because the girl is representing her mom
here in quite a significant way, and so the president
needs to understand not just the girl's point of view,
but the girl's mother's point of view. So she knows
that when she's talking to the girl, she's really talking
to the mom A lot of the time. That's true.
She's so young, you think they've been together for two years.
And so the girl was four when this couple got together,
(03:22):
and I'm imagining that the mom had concerns about how
much this new woman was going to be a maternal
figure to her daughter. Would the mom be left out?
The age of the kids is really important here too.
Some people think, oh, when they're younger, it's easier. In
some ways, when they're younger, it's harder. And I think
(03:42):
we need to understand the system as a whole. How
is that different from the family system they used to have,
and also the system that they have when they're spending
time with their mom. And it also cures a little
bit about the boy. He doesn't seem to be a
big player here at all. He just seems to be
fine with whatever. It could be that the conflict with
the girl is orienting Priscilla towards the girl and she's
ignoring stuff that might be happening with a boy. Yeah,
(04:05):
we're talking about family systems. We should mention that there's
always an identified patient, what we call an i P.
And it might be that the girl is holding all
the symptoms for whatever distress this disruption has caused, and
she looks like the problem, But we don't really know yet,
and we'll get Priscilla in for a consultation after a
(04:26):
quick break. You're listening to Dear Therapists from my Heart Radio.
This is der Therapists. Thanks for listening, So why don't
(04:49):
we go and talk to Priscilla. Hi, Priscilla, Hi, Yes,
thank you so much for coming on our show. We
really want to ask you a few questions about you letter,
and one of those is we wanted to get a
better sense of your boyfriend of the dad, what his
position in all of this? What does he do when
his daughter is criticizing you. Sure, when he's there, he's
(05:12):
very good at saying, you know that's not very nice,
please apologize. Uh. Sometimes he's not there, then I don't
tell him about it because I don't want to be
a taddle tale. So if he is there and he
hears it, he does support me and he lets them
know that what she's doing is not right. Okay? And
how frequent are these moments? Although I hate you and
(05:34):
you don't make good gluechi sandwiches, I would say it's
her saying I love you. Can you come play with me?
Right after a time that she has been been pretty mean?
But most of the times that are difficult or about
seventy five percent at the time. Well, you're actually doing
a really good job. And I know that sounds off
(05:55):
because of the ratio that you just gave us, but
blended families are really hard, and I think you have
to remember that whatever is going on with the kids
has a lot to do with what's going on in
the family she is coming from, and part of that
family is her mom. And I want to be really
(06:15):
careful here not to criticize the mom, because the mom
probably has a lot of feelings about the fact that
she is not seeing her children all the time now
that there's another adult in her children's lives, and that
could be really hard on her. And the little girl
(06:38):
probably feels torn between seeing that her mother might be
struggling with this and also wanting to form a relationship
with you, but maybe feeling almost disloyal in doing so.
So in essence, what the girl is representing is her
(06:58):
idea of what the mom needs her to represent, whether
the mom expressed that or not, wants to have to
do that or not. So you're not really talking to
the girl a lot of the time. You're talking to
the mom through the girl, and so it's important to
consider that because the girl is not just being rude
(07:20):
or defiant, she's actually being loyal, she's actually being loving
toward her mom. But once she has she's you know,
kind of checked the box, done her duty, then she
can afford to just be how she really feels with you. Okay,
So that makes a lot of sense than she I think.
I have a hard time switching back and forth, and
I certainly don't know what to say when she's like,
(07:41):
I hate you. Get away from me after we've just
been playing and say, oh, everything is going fine, Maybe
today is going to be a good day, and then
obviously it's not until it is again maybe half an
hour later. Priscilla, I'm wondering, what do you say in
those moments when she says the mean things. Well, sometimes
I say I'm sorry, I don't hate you. I I'm
(08:01):
your friend and I really like hanging out with you.
There are moments where I'm not so great and I say, well,
why would you say that? I need to know why
why do you hate me? The important thing here to
remember is that it's okay for her to have the
feelings that she's having. The way that she expresses them
is problematic, but it's okay for her to feel how
she feels. She doesn't know what to do with these
(08:24):
very big feelings that she's having, and so trying to
talk her out of her feelings or trying to have
her back up her feelings with I need three bullet
points on why you hate me. Yeah, she's not able
to do that. She's six years old, and so I think,
first of all, what would feel so good for her
is for her mom and her dad to be talking
to her about what is going on and how are
(08:46):
you feeling about all of these changes? And when she
says I don't like Priscilla, that they said, you don't
have to like Priscilla, but you do have to be
kind and respectful, and and it gives her the freedom
to be okay with the conflict of I'm having these feelings,
I don't like the divorce, and I also kind of
(09:08):
I'm starting to like this other woman. You said. So
we we we're playing. Everything's very nice, and suddenly I see,
you know the next thing, because we're having a good time,
and she's like, no, I hate you. I don't want
to talk to you. Ye, she's saying that because you
just had a good time she hates you after she
feels that she loves you. The picture of what the
(09:30):
I hate you statement is about it in fact means, oops,
I love you too much right now now I need
to hate you because I'm going to feel guilty. The
thing is that for her, liking you is dangerous. The
minute that she feels that she likes you, this alarm
bell goes off in her and she doesn't know what
to do with it. And you say, that's not going
(09:51):
on with the boy. What's his relationship like with his
mom compared to what the girl's relationship is like with
her mom? From what I hear, because Um, their their
mom doesn't want to meet me if he's very affectionate
with her too, And it seems that his daughter is
very touch and go with the mom too, meaning that
she's having conflict with her mom as well. Yes, it's
(10:14):
interesting too that you've been dating for two years and
there's this co parenting situation, but that she has not
wanted to meet you, and yet her kids are spending
a significant amount of time with you. How does your
boyfriend talk to you about what's going on with his divorce? Um,
(10:35):
it's a pretty contentious situation. Um, they aren't in a
o I think what I would say a co parenting situation.
There in a limited speaking situation. Most communication happens via email.
And how do you and your boyfriend talk about your
role in this emerging family that you're creating With the boyfriend,
I don't know that we talk about my role and
(10:57):
that he says, I'm very happy that you're in their life,
happy that you're a friend for them, and he wants
me to be comfortable spending time with them. Of course,
I think he does very much want me to live
with them. I have put the brakes on that because
I don't think it's a good time right now. So
that's that's how we've talked about it. Look, you are
in the toughest position in the blended family scenario because
(11:20):
her parents are not communicating other than in emails. They're
not really having a productive conversation to try and co
parent and help this girl deal with the emotional conflict
the divorce presents. So she's left to deal with it
on her own with messages from mom that you are
not to be greeted. Then here's what sets up a
loyalty conflict if nothing else, and there's plenty else. That's
(11:43):
why this girl is in conflict. She likes you, she
has fun with you, yet mom doesn't like you, and
so it's not okay to really like you. And so
she can get over that a lot of the time,
but not all of the time, and not even most
of the time. And I just want you to have
a very different perspective on what's going on, so that
you see it that way rather than I must be
(12:03):
failing or the girl must be too difficult because we're
not connecting all the time, both of those things. Actually,
I think I think both of those things, and I
have never thought of it that way. And honestly, in
the first time in two years, I feel bad for
her because I have not felt that way the whole time.
It has just been difficult. So thank you for I think,
(12:24):
allowing me to feel bad for her. And I don't
know if there is a role for me to help
her in this. We're gonna talk in a second and
come up with some advice for you and will help
you manage that a little bit. But first I had
one more question. I'm want to know more about your
relationship with your boyfriend. Tell me about the relationship and
tell me about the quality and the depth of the
(12:45):
kinds of conversations that you have, because it sounds like
this divorce is a big, big part of his life,
and I don't know how much you talk about that.
Is that compartmentalized so that you guys have this romantic
time together, but you're not really talking of this whole
other piece of his life that's going on in the background.
How are things between the two of you? And and
(13:05):
in terms of even talking about your life goals, when
he says I want you to move in with me
and you're not really ready, do you have the same
ideas about what you both want in the future. So, yeah,
we've known each other for thirteen years. We liked each
other back then. Timing wasn't right, and you know, over
the years we loosely stayed in touch, and then we
got married and divorced, and I've been divorced for two years,
(13:26):
uh he roughly the same time it was official, about
a year ago. The first year, I think we were
very much, yes, trying to be focused on building a
relationship for us one to two days a week, which
is kind of tough, So we didn't talk too much
about those other things. Um, but now that his divorce
has been final and they're having some he and his
ex wife are having some difficulties dealing with custody issues
(13:49):
and child support and school choices and all that sort
of stuff. I hear about it, and I think it's
been starting to weigh on us as a couple, because
I think he is missing me lot and he wants
me to spend more time with them, and just having
two years out from a divorce, I'm really finally for
once I had a difficult marriage. I'm very happy in
(14:10):
my life where it is right now that I get
to have some peaceful time on my own, I get
some time with him, we get some time as a
group together. I know he wants it to happen right
now because he really wants me to be there and
he loves having his time with me, and he has
expressed to me that's brings him peace uh and calmness
when I'm there with him or or there with him
and his kids. Um and I would agree. I love
(14:31):
spending time with him. I think we we do have
the same goals as far as living together. I'm looking
at it as a couple of years down the road
when because in my mind, the child's situation settles down
a little bit, and I didn't have kids in my life,
so I think I'm still trying to adjust to having
kids and what that means. I did not grow up
around little children either, so there's also a lot for
(14:53):
me to adjust to that too. Did you plan on
not having children? I do it if I was married
to an alcoholic for ten years and so I chose
to not have kids with him for a very good reason,
and then just kind of a custom myself to saying
I'm not going to be someone that is able to
have kids. So it wasn't that you didn't imagine yourself
(15:14):
as a parent, It was that you didn't imagine yourself
in that situation as a parent. That's right. Let me
just ask you, what is your boyfriend's relationship with his daughter? Sure,
in the beginning, I saw how does he love his
child so much when she's so difficult to him as well?
I think she she acts out quite a bit, pushes
his boundaries as well. I think we all walk on
eggshells around her, waiting for her to kind of erupt
(15:36):
with some sort of behavior. So he really really wants
to try to have a better relationship with her. If
the girl were easier, would you consider moving in sooner?
Or is it's not that necessarily that's stopping you. Oh,
such a good question, because I have asked myself that
I almost have said if she wasn't in the picture
and it was just me and my boyfriend and his son,
(15:58):
would I want to do it. I think the timeline
would be shorter, but I still wouldn't be ready to
move in right now. I am still enjoying my life
as it is right now. So guy, let's give Priscilla
some advice. So you know, it's an interesting thing that's
(16:18):
going on, because to us, it seems that everyone's struggling here.
It's not just the girl who's struggling or you that's
struggling because of her. Everyone seems to be struggling, and again,
completely normative given the situation. Divorces are difficult, Blended families
are difficult, but when a divorce is really contentious and
there's not a lot of co parenting or good communication
(16:42):
going on between the parents, it does make things trickier
and more difficult for all and often especially for the kids.
So the first thing we want to suggest to you
is that you and her dad need to have a
different way of responding to the girl when she's having
these difficult moments, because they come out angry, they come
(17:05):
out hostile, But what's beneath both of those is pain.
She's in pain. She has no idea why or what
to do with it, and so it's okay to say
to her. And this is the most important part to
give her permission to be upset, to be angry, to
feel whatever she's feeling, because when you say to her
(17:27):
that's not nice apologize, or when her dad says that,
it really doesn't give her the room to have the
feelings that she's having, So it just frustrates her more
because it's in denial of what she's feeling. So it's
more important that you and the dad respond by saying,
I know you don't like my grilled cheese, and I
know you might be missing mom now and missing Mom's
(17:47):
grilled cheese, and that's okay. You're allowed to miss Mum,
you're allowed not to like my grilled cheese, but you
do need to say it more nicely, you know, the
messages like that that let her know that you get
that she's in distress, but have a limit attached to
them about um, but it's not okay to express it
this way, and maybe there are other ways you can
(18:08):
express it and offer those to her in the moment,
and she will use them or not, but over time
they'll begin to fold more into her repertoire. I think
she understands that there's a lot of conflict between her
parents right now, and that there probably aren't a lot
of positive things being said about her mom. And so
(18:28):
it sounds like some of the comments that she makes
to you set up a comparison between you and the mom,
like you're fatter than my mom, her grilled cheese is better.
It's not just a comment about your body separate from
her mom or your grilled she's separate from her mom.
It's it's a comparison. And I think that you need
to keep out of that comparison. And so if she says,
(18:52):
you know, you're fatter than my mom, you can say, yeah,
you know, she's spinner and we both like our bodies.
You can talk to her more generally, be not in
that moment about what we do when we are sad
or mad or anxious, and and really give her that vocabulary.
It sounds like neither of her parents has really had
(19:16):
that conversation with her, And so if you can approach
her with more compassion in those moments, and I know
it's hard to do because she's saying things that are
very provocative, but if you can have a lot of
compassion for the pain she's feeling that made her say
what she said, I think that you will respond to
her in a way that allows her to have to
have the feelings that she's having. But again, if her
(19:37):
mom is not going to have that conversation with her,
her dad certainly needs to. Which is I know that
it's hard going back and forth. I know it's hard
getting used to a new person. And I know at
times you're going to have feelings about that. Your mom, me,
your brother, we all have feelings about it, and we
are here to talk about what you're feeling. A lot
(19:58):
of the times with divorce, especially two years out, the
feeling of the parents side is world. We're getting over it.
But divorce is a live issue for kids. They go
back and forth, it's it's real for them every day.
It's live for them every day. It doesn't go away.
So I think her dad, especially has to have an
(20:18):
ongoing dialogue with her that mentions the divorce, mentions the separation,
the difficulty of the back and forth, the missing her mom,
because that has to be legitimized. That does actually make
sense because they never talk about it at all, and
the kids sometimes do mention I hate having to switch
houses all the time, and it's not responded to, and
(20:39):
I certainly don't say anything to that, So I think
that would be very helpful. And when you say it's
not responded to, you mean their dad doesn't respond to it.
That's that's correct yet, right, So part of our advice
is about how their dad can talk to the kids
about what's going on, because it's always the unspoken thing
that creates it comes out somehow, So people cannot speak
(21:01):
about something and think was not going to come up. Well,
it does come up. It comes out, especially with kids
through behavior, so it's really important for him to talk
about it. I was also struck by the fact that
you said that he your boyfriend, wants you around more.
Part of it is obviously he wants to be with you,
but part of it is that something he's having a
little bit of trouble managing being a single dad. So
(21:23):
part of it is having the dad talked to the
girl and the boy because he needs it as well,
even if he's not acting out. And part of it
is the two of you having a conversation about what
really is going on. M and I don't know how
much the two of your talking about the fact that
you don't want to move in partly because you're enjoying
(21:44):
your life right now. And one last piece of advice
would be that there's there seems to be so much
conflict between the parents and it would really help this
girl manage her conflict between being loyal to the mom
and also being able to adjust to this new situation
that the mom really doesn't like. If you give her
(22:05):
some wins, if you give her the mom some clear winds.
So is there something that you can say positive lee
about the mom. I know you haven't met her, but
grilled cheese. Let's just start with grilled cheese much better
than mine. You're absolutely right, or even yeah, your mom's
really pretty rite, anything like oh, your your mom must
(22:27):
do that really well. I really like the outfit that
you're wearing. That did your mom get that? Really? That's beautiful?
It will help the girl with that conflict so much
if she knows that, Oh, it's okay for Priscilla to
say positive things about my mom, So I can now
say positive things about my mom too. I don't have
to have that conflict of who's better and who likes
whom better. They both have positive qualities. I have never
(22:51):
heard that before, so that's going to be it. I
have never known how to address those statements when she
does say, then, my mom loves this kind of music,
and I'm like, okay, well you can say that's great,
your mom has really good taste in music. These are
easy winds percenta right because it doesn't cost you anything
to say mom has good taste in music and clothes.
He makes good food, like none of it matters. But
(23:13):
the girl will feel less in conflict, and some of
that will get back to the mom, and the mom
will feel less threatened, and so it will ease things
all around. So you look for winds that you can
give mom whenever they're presented, and you will see that
it will ease the girl's tension in the moment, but
(23:34):
over time, especially, which I think is important. Yeah, you
guys are geniuses that that's that to me, I think
will make her really happy and it would help if
her dad could do that too, and you might want
to talk to him about it. That she needs to
know that it is okay between her parents, not that
(23:55):
they're going to be best friends, but that they can
respect each other. If you're asked her to be respectful
to you and to her dad and to her brother,
she needs to see the adults being respectful. And if
she's not seeing adults, who can say. We're not married anymore,
but your mom has these great qualities, and I really
admire this about your mom. I understand why you love
(24:18):
your mom so much, and and there are things that
we like in respect about your mom too, even though
your mom and I aren't married anymore. Mm hmm, Okay,
do you have any questions for us? I don't think so.
I think this is a lot of really really great
advice that um, I'm looking forward to trying. And these
(24:38):
are all pieces that I didn't know what to do
in these situations has come up, and they seem very simple.
Like you said in very quick wins, what we're gonna
do is we're gonna have you tried them, and then
we're gonna have you come back and tell us how
it went. That sounds great. Thank you so much. I'm
really looking forward to putting these these things into action.
(25:01):
So that was really interesting because when we have patients
come and we give them a specific suggestions, you can
tell who's hungry for them yet might not be able
to act on them, will be ready to act on them,
and who's hungry for them and eager to act on them.
Priscilla strikes me as eag attact. I would anticipate she
(25:23):
would go and give an earnest try of putting all
these things into action. I agree with that, and from
what I'm guessing, her boyfriend might have been less eager.
I have a feeling that he's going to have a
harder time implementing this than she is. And I'm not
sure how ready he will be too, for example, give
(25:45):
the wife props, or how ready he is to talk
about this with his daughter, because it's really kind of
remarkable that after two years he has not had a
conversation with her about this divorce. That's striking to me, right,
And I always tend to think that if somebody's not
doing that, then they're afraid of doing it because they
don't think they have the tools with which to do it,
(26:07):
or they don't think they can handle it well, or
they don't literally know how or to what end they
would be doing it. But I think my hope is
that her coming and saying, here are some tools, here
are some ideas we can both implement, and it's both
of us that need to do it. It's not just you.
You're not alone in this fight. That might ease him
into it, or reassure him a little bit or give
(26:28):
him a little bit more confidence. A lot of times
parents are reluctant to bring up something painful with their
kids because they feel like if I don't talk about it,
they won't feel the pain. And if I bring it up,
I'm going to have them experience pain that they aren't experiencing.
It's like, let's not talk about this thing that's painful
to you because I'm reminding you of your pain, which
(26:50):
is completely wrong, because the kid doesn't need reminding of
her pain. She's in pain. It'll be interesting to see
what he's actually able to do, So I'm excited to
have her back too. This is dear Therapist, and we'll
be back after a short break. I'm and I'm Laurie Gottlieb,
(27:18):
and this is dear therapists. Well, let's listen to the voicemail.
Hey Laurie and Guy, thank you for the advice you
gave me on how to have a better relationship with
my boyfriend's six year old daughter. I have been able
to put some of the things that you suggested into play.
The biggest game changer for me and I think her
was how to respond when she was yelling at me
(27:38):
or calling me harsh names, or more recently, telling me
to get out of her house. Since she makes those
statements pretty suddenly, you said to say something like, it's
okay if you don't want to play with me or
you don't like me right now, but it's not okay
how you're talking to me. Um. I said that exactly,
and she stopped immediately. I'm not gonna lie. It was
really hard, Um. I was really nervous saying it to
(28:01):
her because if she didn't stop, I had no game
plan on what to say next. But it has worked
every time. Um. Of course, she didn't behave that way
just once. It's usually each time I see them there
is an outburst like that. So that sentence has been
my go to and it's been easier to use each time.
Just getting it to stop has been really helpful. Um,
(28:22):
there's still lots of things that need help and guidance
with her. She is going to be talking to a
therapist to help her with her emotions and what seems
to be a lot of anger. I mean, she's only six,
and we really want to help her because I can't
imagine she likes feeling like this. We still have no
plans on living together, which is what's best for me
and his daughter and I still do have really great
moments together that have been and I think sometimes continue
(28:45):
to be overshadowed both by those really tough times. But
thank you for helping me see that she is probably
feeling a connection with me and and struggling with that
betrayal in her mind to her mom. So we're all
working on ourselves and hopefully that means a better family dynamics.
So thank you again. I really feel good about how
(29:09):
she took the advice. It definitely sounds like Priscilla has
a new arrow in her quiver and she's robin hooding
all over the place where that arrow as she should.
And I think it's effective, and I think that's what's
helping her calm down that she found something that works. Yeah,
and I think her situation is so relatable, not only
two people in blended families, but just as a parent.
(29:29):
Sometimes your child will say something so provocative and you
want to react in that moment. And what she's getting
really good at is just taking a breath and realizing
that what she's feeling doesn't necessarily match what's going on,
and that there's much more to it and it's much
more complicated. And so when she responds more calmly um,
(29:50):
so does the little girl. And I'm really glad to
hear that despite all these difficulties, she hasn't lost sight
of the good moments and she's still able to enjoy them,
as is the girl and I'm sure the entire family. Yeah.
Sometimes I think people feel like they have to change
everything at once, and they get overwhelmed by that. But
you can see here that when you when you change
one small thing, it can have a huge ripple effect.
(30:18):
That brings us to the end of our show for
this week. Thank you so much for listening. You can
follow us both online. I'm at Lori Gottlieb dot com
and you can follow me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lori Gottlieb, Underscore author and
I'm at guy Winch dot com and on Instagram at
guy Winch. If you have a dilemma you'd like to
(30:39):
discuss with us, big or small, email us at Lorian
guy at I heart media dot com. Our executive producers
Christopher hasci Otis, were produced and edited by Mike John's
Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy
Godmother Katie Couric. Next Week, a man who left his
wife for the up of his life wonders if that
(31:01):
makes him a bad person. I mean, I did leave
my wife for another woman, but the rumors that were
about were as nasty as can be and set the
timeline very differently than what reality was. Dear Therapists is
a production of I Heart Radio
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic. And I'm Guy Wench.
I wrote Emotional First Aid, and I write a Dear
Guy column for Ted And this is Dear Therapists. This
week we'll talk about the challenges of blending families together
when young children are involved and say, oh, everything is
(00:26):
going fine. Maybe says going to be a good day,
and I certainly don't know what to say when she's like,
I hate you. Get away from me, listen in and
maybe learn something about yourself in the process. Hi Laurie,
Hey Guy, Ready for this week's letter. I am great
Dear Therapists. I've been dating a single dad for two years.
(00:47):
We've known each other for thirteen years, and we've reconnected
after our divorces. I do not have any kids and
his are six and eight. We do not live together,
and I see them two to three weekends a month.
His son, he is eight, he's a sweetheart. His daughter,
the six year old, she hates me one minute and
loves me ten minutes later. This rollercoaster usually lasts throughout
(01:10):
the weekend. She says mean things like I'm fatter than
her mom, or I make crappy grilled cheese, or that
she reminds me constantly that I'm not her mom and
I can't tell her what to do. Even though I
don't discipline, I follow all the books that say not to.
I'm not trying to be her mom at all. So
how do I help this little girl with a divorce
or me? Oh, how do I at least try to
(01:32):
survive it? Being in my position? I feel like I
should love her, but I don't even like her most days.
Signed Priscilla. So blended families, even though they're not married.
Let's call them a blended family because that's basically what
they are operating as. And they're really hard because in
any relationship, you're navigating the couple itself, but there are
(01:54):
all these other people involved. You have exces and children involved,
and the children are integral part of the couple's relationship.
And learning families takes time, often as he years before
the family can feel, you know, fully comfortable and that
they've made the transition. And that's when it's happening almost
full time. Here, she's there just a few weekends a month.
(02:15):
But what I think is that she's underestimating how it's going.
The fact that the boy is fine with her, the
fact that the little girl, ten minutes after she says
I hate you, says I love you and it's cool
with her, And I think she's perhaps having too high
a bar of how it should go. Yeah, she's thinking
to herself, well, why is the girl acting this way
(02:36):
when I'm doing nothing to try to be her mom?
And she can't imagine the kid's point of view instead
of thinking about why is she accusing me of things
that I'm not doing? To try to understand what is
actually going on with this little girl, right, And I
think that the only way she can fully understand the
little girl's point of view is to understand the mom's
(02:58):
point of view, because the girl is representing her mom
here in quite a significant way, and so the president
needs to understand not just the girl's point of view,
but the girl's mother's point of view. So she knows
that when she's talking to the girl, she's really talking
to the mom A lot of the time. That's true.
She's so young, you think they've been together for two years.
And so the girl was four when this couple got together,
(03:22):
and I'm imagining that the mom had concerns about how
much this new woman was going to be a maternal
figure to her daughter. Would the mom be left out?
The age of the kids is really important here too.
Some people think, oh, when they're younger, it's easier. In
some ways, when they're younger, it's harder. And I think
(03:42):
we need to understand the system as a whole. How
is that different from the family system they used to have,
and also the system that they have when they're spending
time with their mom. And it also cures a little
bit about the boy. He doesn't seem to be a
big player here at all. He just seems to be
fine with whatever. It could be that the conflict with
the girl is orienting Priscilla towards the girl and she's
ignoring stuff that might be happening with a boy. Yeah,
(04:05):
we're talking about family systems. We should mention that there's
always an identified patient, what we call an i P.
And it might be that the girl is holding all
the symptoms for whatever distress this disruption has caused, and
she looks like the problem, But we don't really know yet,
and we'll get Priscilla in for a consultation after a
(04:26):
quick break. You're listening to Dear Therapists from my Heart Radio.
This is der Therapists. Thanks for listening, So why don't
(04:49):
we go and talk to Priscilla. Hi, Priscilla, Hi, Yes,
thank you so much for coming on our show. We
really want to ask you a few questions about you letter,
and one of those is we wanted to get a
better sense of your boyfriend of the dad, what his
position in all of this? What does he do when
his daughter is criticizing you. Sure, when he's there, he's
(05:12):
very good at saying, you know that's not very nice,
please apologize. Uh. Sometimes he's not there, then I don't
tell him about it because I don't want to be
a taddle tale. So if he is there and he
hears it, he does support me and he lets them
know that what she's doing is not right. Okay? And
how frequent are these moments? Although I hate you and
(05:34):
you don't make good gluechi sandwiches, I would say it's
her saying I love you. Can you come play with me?
Right after a time that she has been been pretty mean?
But most of the times that are difficult or about
seventy five percent at the time. Well, you're actually doing
a really good job. And I know that sounds off
(05:55):
because of the ratio that you just gave us, but
blended families are really hard, and I think you have
to remember that whatever is going on with the kids
has a lot to do with what's going on in
the family she is coming from, and part of that
family is her mom. And I want to be really
(06:15):
careful here not to criticize the mom, because the mom
probably has a lot of feelings about the fact that
she is not seeing her children all the time now
that there's another adult in her children's lives, and that
could be really hard on her. And the little girl
(06:38):
probably feels torn between seeing that her mother might be
struggling with this and also wanting to form a relationship
with you, but maybe feeling almost disloyal in doing so.
So in essence, what the girl is representing is her
(06:58):
idea of what the mom needs her to represent, whether
the mom expressed that or not, wants to have to
do that or not. So you're not really talking to
the girl a lot of the time. You're talking to
the mom through the girl, and so it's important to
consider that because the girl is not just being rude
(07:20):
or defiant, she's actually being loyal, she's actually being loving
toward her mom. But once she has she's you know,
kind of checked the box, done her duty, then she
can afford to just be how she really feels with you. Okay,
So that makes a lot of sense than she I think.
I have a hard time switching back and forth, and
I certainly don't know what to say when she's like,
(07:41):
I hate you. Get away from me after we've just
been playing and say, oh, everything is going fine, Maybe
today is going to be a good day, and then
obviously it's not until it is again maybe half an
hour later. Priscilla, I'm wondering, what do you say in
those moments when she says the mean things. Well, sometimes
I say I'm sorry, I don't hate you. I I'm
(08:01):
your friend and I really like hanging out with you.
There are moments where I'm not so great and I say, well,
why would you say that? I need to know why
why do you hate me? The important thing here to
remember is that it's okay for her to have the
feelings that she's having. The way that she expresses them
is problematic, but it's okay for her to feel how
she feels. She doesn't know what to do with these
(08:24):
very big feelings that she's having, and so trying to
talk her out of her feelings or trying to have
her back up her feelings with I need three bullet
points on why you hate me. Yeah, she's not able
to do that. She's six years old, and so I think,
first of all, what would feel so good for her
is for her mom and her dad to be talking
to her about what is going on and how are
(08:46):
you feeling about all of these changes? And when she
says I don't like Priscilla, that they said, you don't
have to like Priscilla, but you do have to be
kind and respectful, and and it gives her the freedom
to be okay with the conflict of I'm having these feelings,
I don't like the divorce, and I also kind of
(09:08):
I'm starting to like this other woman. You said. So
we we we're playing. Everything's very nice, and suddenly I see,
you know the next thing, because we're having a good time,
and she's like, no, I hate you. I don't want
to talk to you. Ye, she's saying that because you
just had a good time she hates you after she
feels that she loves you. The picture of what the
(09:30):
I hate you statement is about it in fact means, oops,
I love you too much right now now I need
to hate you because I'm going to feel guilty. The
thing is that for her, liking you is dangerous. The
minute that she feels that she likes you, this alarm
bell goes off in her and she doesn't know what
to do with it. And you say, that's not going
(09:51):
on with the boy. What's his relationship like with his
mom compared to what the girl's relationship is like with
her mom? From what I hear, because Um, their their
mom doesn't want to meet me if he's very affectionate
with her too, And it seems that his daughter is
very touch and go with the mom too, meaning that
she's having conflict with her mom as well. Yes, it's
(10:14):
interesting too that you've been dating for two years and
there's this co parenting situation, but that she has not
wanted to meet you, and yet her kids are spending
a significant amount of time with you. How does your
boyfriend talk to you about what's going on with his divorce? Um,
(10:35):
it's a pretty contentious situation. Um, they aren't in a
o I think what I would say a co parenting situation.
There in a limited speaking situation. Most communication happens via email.
And how do you and your boyfriend talk about your
role in this emerging family that you're creating With the boyfriend,
I don't know that we talk about my role and
(10:57):
that he says, I'm very happy that you're in their life,
happy that you're a friend for them, and he wants
me to be comfortable spending time with them. Of course,
I think he does very much want me to live
with them. I have put the brakes on that because
I don't think it's a good time right now. So
that's that's how we've talked about it. Look, you are
in the toughest position in the blended family scenario because
(11:20):
her parents are not communicating other than in emails. They're
not really having a productive conversation to try and co
parent and help this girl deal with the emotional conflict
the divorce presents. So she's left to deal with it
on her own with messages from mom that you are
not to be greeted. Then here's what sets up a
loyalty conflict if nothing else, and there's plenty else. That's
(11:43):
why this girl is in conflict. She likes you, she
has fun with you, yet mom doesn't like you, and
so it's not okay to really like you. And so
she can get over that a lot of the time,
but not all of the time, and not even most
of the time. And I just want you to have
a very different perspective on what's going on, so that
you see it that way rather than I must be
(12:03):
failing or the girl must be too difficult because we're
not connecting all the time, both of those things. Actually,
I think I think both of those things, and I
have never thought of it that way. And honestly, in
the first time in two years, I feel bad for
her because I have not felt that way the whole time.
It has just been difficult. So thank you for I think,
(12:24):
allowing me to feel bad for her. And I don't
know if there is a role for me to help
her in this. We're gonna talk in a second and
come up with some advice for you and will help
you manage that a little bit. But first I had
one more question. I'm want to know more about your
relationship with your boyfriend. Tell me about the relationship and
tell me about the quality and the depth of the
(12:45):
kinds of conversations that you have, because it sounds like
this divorce is a big, big part of his life,
and I don't know how much you talk about that.
Is that compartmentalized so that you guys have this romantic
time together, but you're not really talking of this whole
other piece of his life that's going on in the background.
How are things between the two of you? And and
(13:05):
in terms of even talking about your life goals, when
he says I want you to move in with me
and you're not really ready, do you have the same
ideas about what you both want in the future. So, yeah,
we've known each other for thirteen years. We liked each
other back then. Timing wasn't right, and you know, over
the years we loosely stayed in touch, and then we
got married and divorced, and I've been divorced for two years,
(13:26):
uh he roughly the same time it was official, about
a year ago. The first year, I think we were
very much, yes, trying to be focused on building a
relationship for us one to two days a week, which
is kind of tough, So we didn't talk too much
about those other things. Um, but now that his divorce
has been final and they're having some he and his
ex wife are having some difficulties dealing with custody issues
(13:49):
and child support and school choices and all that sort
of stuff. I hear about it, and I think it's
been starting to weigh on us as a couple, because
I think he is missing me lot and he wants
me to spend more time with them, and just having
two years out from a divorce, I'm really finally for
once I had a difficult marriage. I'm very happy in
(14:10):
my life where it is right now that I get
to have some peaceful time on my own, I get
some time with him, we get some time as a
group together. I know he wants it to happen right
now because he really wants me to be there and
he loves having his time with me, and he has
expressed to me that's brings him peace uh and calmness
when I'm there with him or or there with him
and his kids. Um and I would agree. I love
(14:31):
spending time with him. I think we we do have
the same goals as far as living together. I'm looking
at it as a couple of years down the road
when because in my mind, the child's situation settles down
a little bit, and I didn't have kids in my life,
so I think I'm still trying to adjust to having
kids and what that means. I did not grow up
around little children either, so there's also a lot for
(14:53):
me to adjust to that too. Did you plan on
not having children? I do it if I was married
to an alcoholic for ten years and so I chose
to not have kids with him for a very good reason,
and then just kind of a custom myself to saying
I'm not going to be someone that is able to
have kids. So it wasn't that you didn't imagine yourself
(15:14):
as a parent, It was that you didn't imagine yourself
in that situation as a parent. That's right. Let me
just ask you, what is your boyfriend's relationship with his daughter? Sure,
in the beginning, I saw how does he love his
child so much when she's so difficult to him as well?
I think she she acts out quite a bit, pushes
his boundaries as well. I think we all walk on
eggshells around her, waiting for her to kind of erupt
(15:36):
with some sort of behavior. So he really really wants
to try to have a better relationship with her. If
the girl were easier, would you consider moving in sooner?
Or is it's not that necessarily that's stopping you. Oh,
such a good question, because I have asked myself that
I almost have said if she wasn't in the picture
and it was just me and my boyfriend and his son,
(15:58):
would I want to do it. I think the timeline
would be shorter, but I still wouldn't be ready to
move in right now. I am still enjoying my life
as it is right now. So guy, let's give Priscilla
some advice. So you know, it's an interesting thing that's
(16:18):
going on, because to us, it seems that everyone's struggling here.
It's not just the girl who's struggling or you that's
struggling because of her. Everyone seems to be struggling, and again,
completely normative given the situation. Divorces are difficult, Blended families
are difficult, but when a divorce is really contentious and
there's not a lot of co parenting or good communication
(16:42):
going on between the parents, it does make things trickier
and more difficult for all and often especially for the kids.
So the first thing we want to suggest to you
is that you and her dad need to have a
different way of responding to the girl when she's having
these difficult moments, because they come out angry, they come
(17:05):
out hostile, But what's beneath both of those is pain.
She's in pain. She has no idea why or what
to do with it, and so it's okay to say
to her. And this is the most important part to
give her permission to be upset, to be angry, to
feel whatever she's feeling, because when you say to her
(17:27):
that's not nice apologize, or when her dad says that,
it really doesn't give her the room to have the
feelings that she's having, So it just frustrates her more
because it's in denial of what she's feeling. So it's
more important that you and the dad respond by saying,
I know you don't like my grilled cheese, and I
know you might be missing mom now and missing Mom's
(17:47):
grilled cheese, and that's okay. You're allowed to miss Mum,
you're allowed not to like my grilled cheese, but you
do need to say it more nicely, you know, the
messages like that that let her know that you get
that she's in distress, but have a limit attached to
them about um, but it's not okay to express it
this way, and maybe there are other ways you can
(18:08):
express it and offer those to her in the moment,
and she will use them or not, but over time
they'll begin to fold more into her repertoire. I think
she understands that there's a lot of conflict between her
parents right now, and that there probably aren't a lot
of positive things being said about her mom. And so
(18:28):
it sounds like some of the comments that she makes
to you set up a comparison between you and the mom,
like you're fatter than my mom, her grilled cheese is better.
It's not just a comment about your body separate from
her mom or your grilled she's separate from her mom.
It's it's a comparison. And I think that you need
to keep out of that comparison. And so if she says,
(18:52):
you know, you're fatter than my mom, you can say, yeah,
you know, she's spinner and we both like our bodies.
You can talk to her more generally, be not in
that moment about what we do when we are sad
or mad or anxious, and and really give her that vocabulary.
It sounds like neither of her parents has really had
(19:16):
that conversation with her, And so if you can approach
her with more compassion in those moments, and I know
it's hard to do because she's saying things that are
very provocative, but if you can have a lot of
compassion for the pain she's feeling that made her say
what she said, I think that you will respond to
her in a way that allows her to have to
have the feelings that she's having. But again, if her
(19:37):
mom is not going to have that conversation with her,
her dad certainly needs to. Which is I know that
it's hard going back and forth. I know it's hard
getting used to a new person. And I know at
times you're going to have feelings about that. Your mom, me,
your brother, we all have feelings about it, and we
are here to talk about what you're feeling. A lot
(19:58):
of the times with divorce, especially two years out, the
feeling of the parents side is world. We're getting over it.
But divorce is a live issue for kids. They go
back and forth, it's it's real for them every day.
It's live for them every day. It doesn't go away.
So I think her dad, especially has to have an
(20:18):
ongoing dialogue with her that mentions the divorce, mentions the separation,
the difficulty of the back and forth, the missing her mom,
because that has to be legitimized. That does actually make
sense because they never talk about it at all, and
the kids sometimes do mention I hate having to switch
houses all the time, and it's not responded to, and
(20:39):
I certainly don't say anything to that, So I think
that would be very helpful. And when you say it's
not responded to, you mean their dad doesn't respond to it.
That's that's correct yet, right, So part of our advice
is about how their dad can talk to the kids
about what's going on, because it's always the unspoken thing
that creates it comes out somehow, So people cannot speak
(21:01):
about something and think was not going to come up. Well,
it does come up. It comes out, especially with kids
through behavior, so it's really important for him to talk
about it. I was also struck by the fact that
you said that he your boyfriend, wants you around more.
Part of it is obviously he wants to be with you,
but part of it is that something he's having a
little bit of trouble managing being a single dad. So
(21:23):
part of it is having the dad talked to the
girl and the boy because he needs it as well,
even if he's not acting out. And part of it
is the two of you having a conversation about what
really is going on. M and I don't know how
much the two of your talking about the fact that
you don't want to move in partly because you're enjoying
(21:44):
your life right now. And one last piece of advice
would be that there's there seems to be so much
conflict between the parents and it would really help this
girl manage her conflict between being loyal to the mom
and also being able to adjust to this new situation
that the mom really doesn't like. If you give her
(22:05):
some wins, if you give her the mom some clear winds.
So is there something that you can say positive lee
about the mom. I know you haven't met her, but
grilled cheese. Let's just start with grilled cheese much better
than mine. You're absolutely right, or even yeah, your mom's
really pretty rite, anything like oh, your your mom must
(22:27):
do that really well. I really like the outfit that
you're wearing. That did your mom get that? Really? That's beautiful?
It will help the girl with that conflict so much
if she knows that, Oh, it's okay for Priscilla to
say positive things about my mom, So I can now
say positive things about my mom too. I don't have
to have that conflict of who's better and who likes
whom better. They both have positive qualities. I have never
(22:51):
heard that before, so that's going to be it. I
have never known how to address those statements when she
does say, then, my mom loves this kind of music,
and I'm like, okay, well you can say that's great,
your mom has really good taste in music. These are
easy winds percenta right because it doesn't cost you anything
to say mom has good taste in music and clothes.
He makes good food, like none of it matters. But
(23:13):
the girl will feel less in conflict, and some of
that will get back to the mom, and the mom
will feel less threatened, and so it will ease things
all around. So you look for winds that you can
give mom whenever they're presented, and you will see that
it will ease the girl's tension in the moment, but
(23:34):
over time, especially, which I think is important. Yeah, you
guys are geniuses that that's that to me, I think
will make her really happy and it would help if
her dad could do that too, and you might want
to talk to him about it. That she needs to
know that it is okay between her parents, not that
(23:55):
they're going to be best friends, but that they can
respect each other. If you're asked her to be respectful
to you and to her dad and to her brother,
she needs to see the adults being respectful. And if
she's not seeing adults, who can say. We're not married anymore,
but your mom has these great qualities, and I really
admire this about your mom. I understand why you love
(24:18):
your mom so much, and and there are things that
we like in respect about your mom too, even though
your mom and I aren't married anymore. Mm hmm, Okay,
do you have any questions for us? I don't think so.
I think this is a lot of really really great
advice that um, I'm looking forward to trying. And these
(24:38):
are all pieces that I didn't know what to do
in these situations has come up, and they seem very simple.
Like you said in very quick wins, what we're gonna
do is we're gonna have you tried them, and then
we're gonna have you come back and tell us how
it went. That sounds great. Thank you so much. I'm
really looking forward to putting these these things into action.
(25:01):
So that was really interesting because when we have patients
come and we give them a specific suggestions, you can
tell who's hungry for them yet might not be able
to act on them, will be ready to act on them,
and who's hungry for them and eager to act on them.
Priscilla strikes me as eag attact. I would anticipate she
(25:23):
would go and give an earnest try of putting all
these things into action. I agree with that, and from
what I'm guessing, her boyfriend might have been less eager.
I have a feeling that he's going to have a
harder time implementing this than she is. And I'm not
sure how ready he will be too, for example, give
(25:45):
the wife props, or how ready he is to talk
about this with his daughter, because it's really kind of
remarkable that after two years he has not had a
conversation with her about this divorce. That's striking to me, right,
And I always tend to think that if somebody's not
doing that, then they're afraid of doing it because they
don't think they have the tools with which to do it,
(26:07):
or they don't think they can handle it well, or
they don't literally know how or to what end they
would be doing it. But I think my hope is
that her coming and saying, here are some tools, here
are some ideas we can both implement, and it's both
of us that need to do it. It's not just you.
You're not alone in this fight. That might ease him
into it, or reassure him a little bit or give
(26:28):
him a little bit more confidence. A lot of times
parents are reluctant to bring up something painful with their
kids because they feel like if I don't talk about it,
they won't feel the pain. And if I bring it up,
I'm going to have them experience pain that they aren't experiencing.
It's like, let's not talk about this thing that's painful
to you because I'm reminding you of your pain, which
(26:50):
is completely wrong, because the kid doesn't need reminding of
her pain. She's in pain. It'll be interesting to see
what he's actually able to do, So I'm excited to
have her back too. This is dear Therapist, and we'll
be back after a short break. I'm and I'm Laurie Gottlieb,
(27:18):
and this is dear therapists. Well, let's listen to the voicemail.
Hey Laurie and Guy, thank you for the advice you
gave me on how to have a better relationship with
my boyfriend's six year old daughter. I have been able
to put some of the things that you suggested into play.
The biggest game changer for me and I think her
was how to respond when she was yelling at me
(27:38):
or calling me harsh names, or more recently, telling me
to get out of her house. Since she makes those
statements pretty suddenly, you said to say something like, it's
okay if you don't want to play with me or
you don't like me right now, but it's not okay
how you're talking to me. Um. I said that exactly,
and she stopped immediately. I'm not gonna lie. It was
really hard, Um. I was really nervous saying it to
(28:01):
her because if she didn't stop, I had no game
plan on what to say next. But it has worked
every time. Um. Of course, she didn't behave that way
just once. It's usually each time I see them there
is an outburst like that. So that sentence has been
my go to and it's been easier to use each time.
Just getting it to stop has been really helpful. Um,
(28:22):
there's still lots of things that need help and guidance
with her. She is going to be talking to a
therapist to help her with her emotions and what seems
to be a lot of anger. I mean, she's only six,
and we really want to help her because I can't
imagine she likes feeling like this. We still have no
plans on living together, which is what's best for me
and his daughter and I still do have really great
moments together that have been and I think sometimes continue
(28:45):
to be overshadowed both by those really tough times. But
thank you for helping me see that she is probably
feeling a connection with me and and struggling with that
betrayal in her mind to her mom. So we're all
working on ourselves and hopefully that means a better family dynamics.
So thank you again. I really feel good about how
(29:09):
she took the advice. It definitely sounds like Priscilla has
a new arrow in her quiver and she's robin hooding
all over the place where that arrow as she should.
And I think it's effective, and I think that's what's
helping her calm down that she found something that works. Yeah,
and I think her situation is so relatable, not only
two people in blended families, but just as a parent.
(29:29):
Sometimes your child will say something so provocative and you
want to react in that moment. And what she's getting
really good at is just taking a breath and realizing
that what she's feeling doesn't necessarily match what's going on,
and that there's much more to it and it's much
more complicated. And so when she responds more calmly um,
(29:50):
so does the little girl. And I'm really glad to
hear that despite all these difficulties, she hasn't lost sight
of the good moments and she's still able to enjoy them,
as is the girl and I'm sure the entire family. Yeah.
Sometimes I think people feel like they have to change
everything at once, and they get overwhelmed by that. But
you can see here that when you when you change
one small thing, it can have a huge ripple effect.
(30:18):
That brings us to the end of our show for
this week. Thank you so much for listening. You can
follow us both online. I'm at Lori Gottlieb dot com
and you can follow me on Twitter at Lori Gottlieb
one or on Instagram at Lori Gottlieb, Underscore author and
I'm at guy Winch dot com and on Instagram at
guy Winch. If you have a dilemma you'd like to
(30:39):
discuss with us, big or small, email us at Lorian
guy at I heart media dot com. Our executive producers
Christopher hasci Otis, were produced and edited by Mike John's
Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our podcast Fairy
Godmother Katie Couric. Next Week, a man who left his
wife for the up of his life wonders if that
(31:01):
makes him a bad person. I mean, I did leave
my wife for another woman, but the rumors that were
about were as nasty as can be and set the
timeline very differently than what reality was. Dear Therapists is
a production of I Heart Radio
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