February 4, 2025 • 41 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week, we’re checking in with Savannah, Ryan and Beth, Danica, and Amy to hear how our sessions have impacted their lives since we last spoke. All of them had trouble communicating with someone--a spouse, sibling, boyfriend--about an important issue in their relationships, and if you’ve been avoiding having a hard but necessary conversation (especially one that involves setting some boundaries!), this episode is for you.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
find out how our advice worked out.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
A year later, there were two big aha moments that
I had after we spoke. One of them was that
if I'm not able to communicate on what I need,
then he's never going to be able to understand. The
other is that I realized I need to be able
to communicate what I want, and in order for me
to be able to communicate that, I need to figure
(01:00):
it out first.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
A quick note, deo therapist is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:22):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey, Laurie,
Hi guy, I'm excited about this week's episode. We're checking
in with four of our guests from season one, Savannah,
Ryan and Beth, Danika and Aby. I'm really curious to
(01:44):
hear how our sessions have impacted them since we last chatted.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yahmi too. And what was interesting about those five people
was that all of them had trouble communicating with someone
about an important issue in their relationships, whether it was
with a spouse or a sibling or a boyfriend.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
They were avoid having hard conversations, and that's something so
many people do.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, and if any of our listeners have been avoiding
having a hard but necessary conversation, especially one that involves
setting some boundaries, this episode is for you.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
The first person we're going to hear from today is Savannah.
Savannah and her husband are a young couple, but they're
dealing with a really difficult issue. Her husband has sickle
cell anemia, which is a chronic condition that can interfere
with daily life and sometimes cause tremendous pain.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And Savannah was trying to figure out how to be
there for him as his partner, but also how to
be there for herself because she was really struggling. But
she was trying to protect him by avoiding having important
discussions about what was actually going on between them, and
that was having an impact on their marriage. So let's
get a reminder of last season's session.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
There was this one supplement that his doctor recommended that's
supposed to help, but he hasn't been taking it in
the quantity that he's supposed.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
To be, and so it wasn't really helping.
Speaker 6 (03:01):
Do you know why he wasn't taking it? I don't,
So what happens when you ask him?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
He kind of brushes it off and just says that
he will or he forgets or something.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
And then I try and remind him any things.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I'm putting too much emphasis onto this supplement and it's
supposed to.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
Have some benefits for sickle cell patients.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
You know what I'm hearing is that when you say
he brushes it off, I think you both brush it off,
because what happens is you're talking about take the supplement,
don't take the supplement as.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Opposed to what's going on emotionally for both of you.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
And this is in part why you wrote to us
being able to talk to him more about Look, this
is really hot for me and I need us to talk.
What's your fear.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I'm definitely scared that our marriage could fall apart.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Wow, that took me right back to the session. So
let's hear how things are going for her now.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
Hy learning guy.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
One of the biggest changes that's happened is not my
husband and I moved back to the East Coast, which
is where we're originally from. We are now much closer
to both of our family as all of our friends,
and we just have this huge support network that's been
really beneficial for both of us over the past few months,
and so we're really really excited to be back and
(04:23):
be closer to the people who are most important to us.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Well, it's great to hear that they move closer to
family and friends, because when someone has a chronic illness,
getting social support and having people to go to for help,
and I mean help both practically and emotionally, both for
the person who has the chronic illness and also for
their partner is so important. So having that network must
(04:48):
be making everything a bit easier for both of them.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
That's exactly why we suggested this support group for Savannah,
because her family and friends were so far away, so
this is such a smart move on their part. I'm
delighted to hear they did that. Let's hear some more
from Savannah.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
After we spoke, we made those lists about things we
wanted to talk to and went through and picked the
other person's items and had.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Those conversations and it was really helpful.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
And one of the things that came out of that
is just me being more comfortable opening up and talking
about the things that are important.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
And so since then.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
We've had more open conversations, regardless of how hard they are,
and we no longer need to follow the lists. It's
a lot more natural now, so that has been really
amazing to see.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
One of the things that we asked her to do
was to create a menu to make it kind of
fun with her husband, where they would write down the
things that they wanted to talk about with each other,
and then the other person gets to pick from that
menu what they are going to discuss in that conversation.
And so it kind of lightened things up a little
(06:06):
bit because these were very heavy topics that they were discussing,
and it also gave the other person some control over
what they would talk about. And it sounds like it
really opened up a space for them to continue to
have these kinds of conversations and really get the communication
going between the two of them.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
It really opened up a logjam because when there are
such important things that aren't being discussed, it's not just
that they're not being discussed, but then each person has
their own feeling and story about why it's not being
discussed and why they aren't, why the other person isn't,
and so having those discussions just freeze up communication in
all kinds of ways.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
And I think it's a sign that the homework assignment
was effective when they're still doing some form of that
a year later. And there's more to Savannah's updates, So
let's take a listen.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
There were two big moments that I had after we spoke.
One of them was that if I'm not able to
communicate on what I need, then he's never going to
be able to understand and get on the same page.
And while it's difficult, it is necessary. And if I
continue to shy away and not speak to it, even
if I'm doing it for what I think is a
(07:15):
good reason, We're never going to be able to move forward.
And so that has been one of the things that's
changed quite dramatically. The other big moment is that in
order for me to be able to communicate that I
need to figure it out. And so I am now
constantly working on figuring out what it is that I
(07:38):
want from life, for myself and for our relationship. And
it has been a really fun process, kind of scary,
but also necessary. And going through that process and bringing
him into that has been truly helpful. It's brought us closer,
and you know, I think he appreciates me doing something
(08:00):
for myself that is going to benefit.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
The both of us.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Thank you again, and I'm really excited to see what
the future has in store for us.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
This is something our listeners might be able to see
in their own lives. Here's how this happens. When you
feel unable to communicate your feelings and needs to someone
for whatever reason, you can lose touch with what those
feelings and needs are because what's the point in trying
to figure them out if you're not going to communicate them,
And that can become such a vicious cycle.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well, sometimes when we feel shut down in a relationship,
we realize that we're the ones shutting ourselves down. You
see how he was very receptive and welcomed, and it
was almost a relief to him to be able to
open up these lines of communication, and I think for
both of them. So sometimes we don't realize it, but
we're the ones who are shutting ourselves down because we're
afraid of what might happen if we voice what we're
(08:52):
really thinking or feeling. So I think this is a
great lesson for people that first get in touch with
what you're thinking and feeling and then make sure that
you communicate it.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And this is a dynamic that we see often in
couples in which one of them has a chronic illness
or they're going through an extended crisis, that their communication
starts to become transactional. They talk about all the stuff
that needs to get done, and they stop going deeper.
One person feels hesitant to bring up their feelings because
they don't want to overburden the person who's suffering. Meanwhile,
(09:25):
the person who's suffering is feeling guilty about putting out
their partner, and so they sit on their feelings and
it can really create this dynamic in which they basically
stop talking about meaningful things.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And it sounds like Savannah and her husband have started
to find those things again. What are the other parts
of their lives that they had been neglecting.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
You're listening to deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy
Wench and this is THEO therapist.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So really, with Savannah, it ended up being a session
about communication, and communication between couples comes up so much,
but usually we just hear from one person in the couple.
And in this next follow up, we have Ryan and
Beth from season one who came on the show together
to help resolve a disagreement that they've had for the
entire length of their marriage. They haven't been able to
agree on where they should live, and they both had
(10:30):
very compelling reasons to want to be in their respective cities,
and they've been in an impasse for a very long time.
Let's get a reminder.
Speaker 7 (10:41):
The level of importance that she and I would say
each of us put on being near family. After the
first eight years of our relationship, we had no family around,
and the fact that all of a sudden that was
like a number one primary desire was a little bit surprising.
(11:05):
I guess, so that would probably be my take.
Speaker 8 (11:08):
I think I learned how much you really didn't want
to live in New York.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
I think I thought you were trying, that you.
Speaker 7 (11:17):
Were really just over it and wanted to get out
of there. I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So often when we see couples in therapy, people assume
that they're coming to us because they are arguing all
the time. There's a lot of acrimony between them, and
that's often not the case. In Ryan and best case,
they had this decision to make about where to live
and for their entire marriage. Even though they loved each
(11:46):
other very much and were able to communicate about other
things pretty well, they weren't able to resolve this issue
of do we live where Ryan's parents live, or do
we live where Best's mom lives? And it was a
very big issue that was causing a lot of resentment
for both of them. So let's hear what happened since
(12:07):
the session.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
This is Beth and this is Ryan.
Speaker 7 (12:11):
Good news is we are communicating better.
Speaker 8 (12:14):
Yeah, and from just a point of view for twenty
twenty one versus where we were in twenty twenty, we
went through an entire first floor innovation on our house
and one of our mantras was we will not divorce
over this, and we didn't, so that's good success. We
(12:36):
successfully also visited with family, which was really important and
helpful for all of those relationships. And it sounds a
little silly when you're a grown up, but we've made
some friends and that feels like really important outlets for
both of us. We made friends through different exercise programs
(13:00):
and a lot of our friends overlap and it's been
huge for us.
Speaker 7 (13:05):
Yeah, And just tonight I went over and helped the
neighbor move a bed and it felt very neighborly in
settled and it was nice.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So it sounds like they're settling into where they have been,
which is where Ryan's family is and I think the
important piece here is that they're learning to communicate with
each other differently. And once they have started to communicate
differently with each other, you can see how that opens
up the possibilities.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Part of what was happening with them because of this
disagreement about geography was they weren't really making a home
anywhere anywhere, And so at least now they're starting to
actually make a home, put down roots, make friends, do
the things you need to do to feel like you
belong somewhere.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And I think that's important because as an adult, it's
much harder to make friends, especially in a new place,
because I think that for most of us as adults,
we either have made friends when we were younger that
come with us in some way, or were already ensconced
in a community and we've established roots there and they
hadn't done that yet, or we make them through our kids.
And here she was really making an effort to kind
(14:16):
of feel settled and make this place her home.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
So let's hear some more from Ryan and Beth.
Speaker 7 (14:22):
I think it helped us. I recognize that we did
have one upsmanship, and so we came to realize that
we needed to back off of that and focus on
the tender core and getting past those hard outer feelings.
So that I think helped us a lot as we
talked through our communication challenges.
Speaker 8 (14:45):
Yeah, and that this doesn't have to be brin smanship.
It doesn't have to be you know, well, my pain
is worse than your pain and we can hold both
at the same time, and that's life. And I think
it helped us both really understand that about it each other.
I think we've also let ourselves feel settled. I think
that was one of the things that Laurie pointed out,
(15:06):
that if we're always feeling a little like we're nomads,
then will we ever feel settled? And will we ever
feel good.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
About where we are?
Speaker 8 (15:14):
And we have met some great people and our kids
are settled, I would say, in good community and family
nearby and all of that.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
So I think things are going better. I think we're
communicating better.
Speaker 8 (15:25):
I think that realization about the tender core underneath the
herd outer shell to sound cliched was kind of a
game changer, just thinking through, yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
How you can.
Speaker 8 (15:39):
Want to hide true emotions.
Speaker 7 (15:41):
And then I'll say it has helped me have more
direct and open conversations with many of my male friends,
which is not something that we generally do. So it's
been positive to help me work through that tough, manly
outer shell that many of us carry and talk more
openly with men.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
What I think is really hopeful here is that no
matter what they end up deciding, and I don't think
that they're quite there yet. I think that Beth is
kind of trying this on right now, and it might
not be where they ultimately end up, but I think
what's important here is that they've learned what was tripping
them up in the kind of communication they had around this,
which can also translate to the other kinds of conversations
(16:25):
that they will inevitably have to have in the course
of a marriage. And one of the things that they
were doing was they had this, whose pain is greater
if I go to your city, will my pain be greater?
So therefore we should go to my city, And it
was sort of this one upsmanship, you know, the pain
Olympics that they were going through, and I think that
they're starting to realize, wait a minute, there also are
(16:46):
reasons that each of us wants to be in these
respective cities. And when they could see the very tender
parts of each other and the very vulnerable parts of
each other. It gave them so much more compassion for
the other person and for the other person's reasons for
wanting to be somewhere else, and also the sacrifices that
they would be making if they ended up in a
(17:08):
city that was not their first choice.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And I think Ryan is being very supportive, which is great,
but really my head soft to Beth. I think she
went from being in such a rigid place of that
brinksmanship of the pan Olympics to known I could never
ever ever be happy there, and one of the exercises
we actually gave her was to imagine being happy there.
(17:31):
But I think she did such a great job of
opening up and really giving it a chance and being
very authentic about it. And my hands off to her.
That was a big, big shift that she did.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
And I would also say hats off to Ryan because
he really was able, for maybe the very first time
in his life to go to that more vulnerable place
that he tends to avoid. And he was talking about
how he normally doesn't go there, and I think that
that happens more often with men than with women, and
(18:05):
I don't want to make a sweeping statement about gender.
But I see that in our culture we tend to
give a message to men that being vulnerable is weak.
And what Ryan did was not only was he able
to be vulnerable with Beth, but then he started to
be more open and vulnerable with his male friends. And
I think that that really speaks to the shift that
(18:27):
he made from this conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
And Ryan and Beth had one last thing to share
with us.
Speaker 7 (18:34):
One of the things I realized was we were also
escalating with our kids. Oh yeah, and so it's helped
us be better parents of don't escalate and just be
open and love them and hug them if need be,
but don't escalate. Thought that was wonderful guidance for parenting.
Speaker 8 (18:54):
Yeah, with marriage, our older son is an escalator.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I don't know where he gets from.
Speaker 8 (19:00):
So it's helpful to kind of remember that when he's
escalating too, there's probably something to work through underneath that.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
So thank you Thinks.
Speaker 7 (19:11):
For lessons and insights.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Couples tend to escalate a lot, especially when they're dealing
with conflictual issues like Beth and Ryan were, but they
also learn how to manage their feelings and to de
escalate and to prevent that, and their healthy communication has improved.
And so for couples, when they do that kind of
work with their emotional regulation and their healthy communication is improving.
(19:38):
It's really beneficial for the kids. The kids get to
see good modeling. They learn that you can be upset,
but you can also manage those feelings and cope with
all the frustrations that you might have when you love someone.
So I think they're doing a great job of not
just managing their own relationship, but really modeling a new
and improved one for their kids.
Speaker 7 (19:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
One of their concerns about where they were going to
live was how that was going to affect the lives
of their kids. They wanted to pick a place that
not only each of them wanted to be in, but
where would their kids have the best upbringing. One of
the best gifts that you can give your kids is
modeling emotional regulation. Modeling what do you do with your
(20:18):
feelings and when you have parents who can communicate well
and effectively and in a healthy way and be vulnerable too.
So emotional regulation is not about don't have feelings, It's
about being able to have your feelings and then to
manage them in a productive way in the family, and
no matter where they decide to live, the gift that
(20:40):
has come out of this is that their kids are
going to get that good modeling from their parents.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So communication problems don't just happen between couples. They happen
among siblings as well. And when we met Danica, she
was really struggling with her younger brother, Blake, who felt
very much left out of the family. She and her
brother John were older than Blake and his kids. They
(21:11):
were quite cruel to him and he has never gotten
over it and he feels very much apart from them,
and she wants to rectify the situation, but she doesn't
know how and anything she's tried hasn't worked. Let's get
a reminder of our session with Danica.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Blake asked us repeatedly, what does it mean to you
to be a sibling?
Speaker 7 (21:37):
To me? Like, what.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Can he really count on from us? We would say, well,
what does family look like for you? And it would
be I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I think because what he's trying to convey to you
is a feeling, and the feeling that he has is
that I'm not part of this group.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
Still, what have those conversations been like where you go
back and take full responsibility for the extent of the
pain that you caused him.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
It's very emotional, you know, to say that, yes, I
was awful, you were very much on your own as
like a five or a six year old. Yes, I
did ignore you, didn't play with you. To have said
that I wish you weren't born, you know, to a
little kid like that, and I have said that I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
So let's hear how things are going between them now, Hi.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Laurie, Hi guy. Unfortunately, I can't say that there has
been dramatic changes. So what has changed is I try
to reach out to Blake more regularly. He actually doesn't
seem all that receptive towards phone calls. He's pretty sensitive
(23:03):
about feeling like I'm making a forced effort to contact him.
I don't think he likes feeling like I'm contacting him
out of obligation or as like a chore, and so
he doesn't like having scheduled calls. So I've been texting
(23:26):
him more and catching up that way.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
You know, Laurie, there might not be dramatic changes in
how Blake feels, but there are meaningful changes in Danaka's
understanding of the dynamics between them in how they communicate. Blake,
for example, convoys that he needs her efforts to feel authentic,
and when she hears that, she goes okay. So maybe
scheduled calls doesn't do that. Let's pivot to texts because
(23:52):
those tend to be most spontaneous and casual, and maybe
that will feel better to him. So she's willing to
change what she's doing and try and find ways to
connect with him, and so far it doesn't sound like
it's gone amazingly will but the fact that those efforts
are going forth, that he's able to voice his concerns,
that she's able to hear them, that's an improvement.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
And building trust takes a lot of time, and I
think there were two things that were really important for
Danica to keep in mind when it came to Blake.
The first was that he did want to have the
sense of being part of the family, feeling like he
was one of the siblings, and that there wasn't this
kind of feeling of being an outsider. But I think
the other part that was extremely important was for Danica
(24:34):
to acknowledge and very directly that she did not treat
him well as a child, and I think he really
needs to hear that and to hear it from an
authentic place where she really gets it. And I think
in our session it did take a little bit of
work for her to really get to a place where
she could do that without the butts or the reasons why.
(24:54):
And the more that that happens, the more trust will
develop between the two of them.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
The other thing in the session was that she kept
tethering herself to John, to the other brother and at
least it sounds like the communication now is just between
Danica and Blake in that way, so it's not we
me and John and then Blake is over there. It's
Danika trying to fold some kind of connection that's just
her and Blake. Let's hear some more from Danica.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I do feel more at peace with how things are.
It was helpful talking with you and for me either.
The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with
Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship
because of our circumstances in childhood and how that's still
(25:47):
carrying over into adulthood, and that kind of framing really
helped me feel less confused about what it was that
Blake was looking towards me for and to some extent,
what it is that he's looking for me now. I
think for us it's going to be a matter of
(26:10):
incremental improvements as I show consistency in reaching out to
him and taking an interest in his life, hopefully will
cease positive change over time. Thank you again for all
of your help and time and insights.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
One of the things that happens when you have parents
who maybe aren't really as present as you would like
them to be, and you're the younger sibling and then
you have two older siblings who are very close with
each other, is that those two older siblings become the
surrogate parents. And Blake was really left alone so much
of the time on his own with nobody there, and
(26:56):
Danica talked about how neglectful she and John and her
brother were toward Blake, And so I think that there's
some of that repair work to do around that piece
in terms of not only what happened, but who are
they to each other now as adults where there isn't
that parental relationship, but they really are adult siblings. And
(27:18):
I think Danica still has this story in her head
that somehow she has so much more in common with
John and she can't possibly find overlap with these interests
with Blake, even though they did when they were in
their early twenties have some of that relationship where they
found some overlap. And I think she has more work
to do to understand why she's so blocked there, because
(27:40):
I think that when she gets unblocked there, she will
naturally become more authentic in the way she relates to Blake,
and Blake will feel her presence in a way that
he never did as that abandoned little child growing up.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I agree, And I think the part of the hurdle
Danka faces is that she is very sensitized to how
hurt Blake is and how rejected he still feels so
many years later. And I think that that makes it
very difficult for her because we're saying to her, yeah,
be authentic with him, but it's so hard to be
(28:15):
authentic when she's worried about hurting his feelings, when she's
worried about saying the wrong things. And so I think
it's really a delicate, difficult path that she has to
find there, And I think the best way for her
to find it is really just to get interested in
who this person is now as an adult, get to
know him in a way that you haven't before you're
both older. You get to know him, ask him questions.
(28:37):
Almost start from scratch, and I hope she can get
over the hesitation she has because of wanting to not
hurt him in any way, shape or form again, so
that she can be more authentic with him and he
would feel that and probably respond quite well to me.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I like what you said about starting from scratch, because
I think these roles that we have as children become
so ingrained that it's very hard to pivot from them,
and so I think that we do have to do
this with our siblings as adults, no matter what the
issue is, is to really start from scratch and not
be like, well, you were always the smart one, or
you were always the favored one, or you were always
(29:14):
the beautiful one, or you know, whatever it might be,
and to really say who are we now that we
are adults and we are not children living in that
house anymore.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And I think any siblings who have not had a
close relationship as adults can do that. Get to know
one another as if you were strangers. And you'll be
really surprised to learn who that sibling is now and
for them to get to know who you are now.
And it's a great way to think about how to
connect with siblings or any family members with whom you
(29:45):
haven't been closed and adulted.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
And I think that starts with curiosity, being really curious
about the other person, and not just in the sibling situation,
but I think in any situation where we're talking about
improving communication, it has to start with curiosity. You're listening
to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back
after a short break, so I'm thinking about the last
(30:20):
person we're going to catch up with today, and that
is Amy. And Amy came to us because she was
uncomfortable with the fact that her boyfriend that she was
very serious with was still taking care of his ex
girlfriend's dog and I think the dog was actually living
with him at times, and the boundaries just seemed very
(30:41):
blurred to her and she did not know how to
communicate effectively with him around this. So let's get a
reminder of what was going on.
Speaker 9 (30:52):
I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never
met this person, but I hate her already.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Because she is.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
In the middle of our relationship.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You are very clear with him that the dog bothers you,
but you also say that you don't want to tell
him what to do about the friendship quote unquote correct
with this X if you feel comfortable saying to him,
this dog shouldn't be here, why don't you feel comfortable
saying and your friendship with this woman who keeps reappearing
and sabotaging the dates you have, she shouldn't be in
(31:23):
the picture either.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I guess you doubt yourself. I think, Okay, does this.
Speaker 9 (31:27):
Dog represent the woman? Is this dog a connection? Or
am I just totally over analyzing a situation. Can he
have a friendship with this person? I mean, he has
mentioned that he's known for twenty something years, But I said,
this is not a friend. I said, I don't have
sex with my friends.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
You know, Laurie, Amy had reason to be concerned about
his ex because she had a history of sabotaging his relationships,
including his marriage, So there was all kinds of reasons
for concern. There here where Amy is today and the
dog and the boyfriend.
Speaker 9 (32:04):
Hi, Laurien guy, this is Amy. I am happy to
report that my boyfriend and I are still together and
the dog has not reappeared, and neither has the ex girlfriend.
Something that I have learned and reflected on a lot, though,
is I don't know that the dog incident was isolated.
(32:24):
And what I mean by that is, I think it's
tied to bigger issues. I know we spoke about boundaries,
so it's tied to bigger issues of boundaries and also guilt.
I know he suffers from just an incredible amount of
guilt from his divorce and not being able to spend
time with his kids. So I think the dog not
only for him did it mean a failed relationship guilt again,
(32:49):
but giving it back was also for him. He felt
guilty because he wasn't sure it was going to be
well taken care of well.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
I think Amy's right that it's never just about the dog,
and member that her boyfriend had so much guilt that
he was holding about having disappointed his wife and leaving
the marriage, and then the question of what was going
to happen to his kids and how were they going
to be affected by the divorce, and then how was
(33:18):
his ex girlfriend going to feel. They also had an
on again, off again relationship that kept reappearing, but they
were also friends for a very long time, and he
was going to disappoint her. So I think there were
so many things going on for him in addition to
the bigger issue of really cutting ties with that part
(33:39):
of his life and being able to move on to
a healthy relationship with Amy.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
And I think what we usually see in our office
is that when somebody has murky boundaries in one area,
for example, who's taking care of the dog, we will
find those milky boundaries in another area. People tend to
either like clarity or avoid creating it. And if he's
the kind of person that really finds it hard to
(34:06):
set clear boundaries and expectations in his own head, let
alone for others, that's probably something that goes on in
all kinds of different areas of his life.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
And I think it's very hopeful that when they had
a direct conversation about this, that he really stepped up
and set those boundaries that he was saying to her,
you were important to me, I value you, and I
know that I need to do this for our relationship
to succeed. And I think that sent her a very
strong message of support. So let's hear what else happened.
Speaker 9 (34:37):
I think the biggest hurdle we have is when they
got divorced while it was amicable, because he felt so guilty,
he assumed ninety nine point nine percent of all the
financial responsibilities. His ex wife doesn't work. She still has
a credit card with him, which is supposed to be
(34:57):
exclusively for growth trees things for the kids, but it's
just really murky. I mean, they are legally divorced, but
he still pays for everything. So that's a really big
challenge for us right now because we're communicating very openly
about it. How if it's not fixed, we can't move forward.
(35:18):
He's slow to act, and I know why. I know
he doesn't. He doesn't like conflict, so he feels like
by engaging in this negotiation, the ex wife might prevent
him from seeing his kids as often as he liked
because they co parent, and might even request SPO custody.
(35:39):
So that's the big hurdle that we're facing now. And
I reflect a lot on what you said, Laurie during
our last call, which was make sure you don't wait
too long. So thank you again for listening.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Well, I think it's great that she got the message
that she shouldn't wait too long to have these conversations,
because she talked about how he avoids conflict, and I
think that when you're in a relationship with someone who
avoids conflict, it's really important that you don't become complicit
in that that you then don't say, well, I'm just
not going to bring it up because I know that
(36:12):
it makes the other person uncomfortable for me to bring
it up. And I think that that worked very well
with setting some clear boundaries around the other woman with
the dog, who he had trouble not having sex with
whenever she would come around. And while there were times
where he could hold that boundary, there were times when
he couldn't. So that was a very clear cut situation
(36:34):
where she knew what she needed, he knew if he
wanted to have this relationship with Amy, and that seemed
to work out well so far. I think here it's
a little more complicated because not only is he conflict avoidant,
but there's a real consequence to bringing this up with
his ex wife, which is that it might affect how
she handles the custody situation around the kids, And so
(36:58):
I think that it's important for them to really talk
about money in their relationship and how money is going
to be handled between them and also with his kids
and his ex wife. But I think she also has
to understand that there's a consequence out there for him
that he kind of has to dance around a little
bit differently. So it doesn't mean don't set the boundary.
(37:18):
It means they're really going to have to work together
to come up with something that works for both of
them in this relationship.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
And here again, as we've seen in the other updates,
communication is absolutely key because Amy has a need to
have clarity about what are the parameters of our relationship
hers and her boyfriends, and that is related to the
parameters of his relationship with his ex wife, his parenting,
all those things. And I'm really glad to hear that
(37:49):
Amy is still as she was when we spoke to her,
really clear about being able to voice what her needs
and feelings are and getting her boyfriend, who is much
less prone to clarity, to become more and more clear
about his needs and feelings and what she can expect.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
And I think that when two people start communicating, it's
beneficial to both people. So it's not like they started
communicating and Amy got things in the relationship that benefit her,
but it also benefits him to be in a healthier
relationship with Amy, and in this case, to really examine
his guilt and his avoidance and his blurry boundaries that
(38:30):
maybe have tripped him up in relationships before, so that
he can have a healthier path moving forward. So he's
got to really differentiate here, what are some boundaries I
can set around money with my ex, and what are
some things where it's really the guilt talking and not
about some negative consequence that might happen. And I think
that what we've seen with all of the updates that
(38:51):
we've gotten this week is that communication might not solve
the problem immediately, but it gets people on a path
so that they can start to get to a place
where they will be able to move forward and negotiate
their relationships in a much smoother way.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
And I think the other thing that we've seen is
that when one person in a family, or in a couple,
or in any kind of relationship starts to communicate more
clearly and more openly, it forces in a way, the
other person to match that or to come toward it,
and so that can really have a ripple effect. I'm
sure Amy's X is learning a lot about communication from
(39:30):
being with Amy, and I'm sure that the family members
and partners of all our guests that we covered this
week have learned from them as well. And so I
just want to urge our listeners. If you are in
a situation that you feel is murky, clarify what your
thoughts and feelings are and then speak up and communicate
(39:52):
openly with the other person.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Because it always feels like a relief. So next week
we'll be back with our regular sessions, and we'll be
talking with a woman who has a history of addictions
that she is now in recovery for, but she has
recently developed a new addiction, and that is to shopping.
Speaker 7 (40:16):
I didn't realize that that's what was happening until I
was six thousand dollars in debt.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
I think that's what makes me feel vulnerable. Is to
say this a loud.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, And please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Big O Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia
dot com.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lyfton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
find out how our advice worked out.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
A year later, there were two big aha moments that
I had after we spoke. One of them was that
if I'm not able to communicate on what I need,
then he's never going to be able to understand. The
other is that I realized I need to be able
to communicate what I want, and in order for me
to be able to communicate that, I need to figure
(01:00):
it out first.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
A quick note, deo therapist is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not
a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:22):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hey, Laurie,
Hi guy, I'm excited about this week's episode. We're checking
in with four of our guests from season one, Savannah,
Ryan and Beth, Danika and Aby. I'm really curious to
(01:44):
hear how our sessions have impacted them since we last chatted.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yahmi too. And what was interesting about those five people
was that all of them had trouble communicating with someone
about an important issue in their relationships, whether it was
with a spouse or a sibling or a boyfriend.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
They were avoid having hard conversations, and that's something so
many people do.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Yeah, and if any of our listeners have been avoiding
having a hard but necessary conversation, especially one that involves
setting some boundaries, this episode is for you.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
The first person we're going to hear from today is Savannah.
Savannah and her husband are a young couple, but they're
dealing with a really difficult issue. Her husband has sickle
cell anemia, which is a chronic condition that can interfere
with daily life and sometimes cause tremendous pain.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And Savannah was trying to figure out how to be
there for him as his partner, but also how to
be there for herself because she was really struggling. But
she was trying to protect him by avoiding having important
discussions about what was actually going on between them, and
that was having an impact on their marriage. So let's
get a reminder of last season's session.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
There was this one supplement that his doctor recommended that's
supposed to help, but he hasn't been taking it in
the quantity that he's supposed.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
To be, and so it wasn't really helping.
Speaker 6 (03:01):
Do you know why he wasn't taking it? I don't,
So what happens when you ask him?
Speaker 3 (03:07):
He kind of brushes it off and just says that
he will or he forgets or something.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
And then I try and remind him any things.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I'm putting too much emphasis onto this supplement and it's
supposed to.
Speaker 5 (03:17):
Have some benefits for sickle cell patients.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
You know what I'm hearing is that when you say
he brushes it off, I think you both brush it off,
because what happens is you're talking about take the supplement,
don't take the supplement as.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Opposed to what's going on emotionally for both of you.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
And this is in part why you wrote to us
being able to talk to him more about Look, this
is really hot for me and I need us to talk.
What's your fear.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
I'm definitely scared that our marriage could fall apart.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Wow, that took me right back to the session. So
let's hear how things are going for her now.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
Hy learning guy.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
One of the biggest changes that's happened is not my
husband and I moved back to the East Coast, which
is where we're originally from. We are now much closer
to both of our family as all of our friends,
and we just have this huge support network that's been
really beneficial for both of us over the past few months,
and so we're really really excited to be back and
(04:23):
be closer to the people who are most important to us.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Well, it's great to hear that they move closer to
family and friends, because when someone has a chronic illness,
getting social support and having people to go to for help,
and I mean help both practically and emotionally, both for
the person who has the chronic illness and also for
their partner is so important. So having that network must
(04:48):
be making everything a bit easier for both of them.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
That's exactly why we suggested this support group for Savannah,
because her family and friends were so far away, so
this is such a smart move on their part. I'm
delighted to hear they did that. Let's hear some more
from Savannah.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
After we spoke, we made those lists about things we
wanted to talk to and went through and picked the
other person's items and had.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
Those conversations and it was really helpful.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
And one of the things that came out of that
is just me being more comfortable opening up and talking
about the things that are important.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
And so since then.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
We've had more open conversations, regardless of how hard they are,
and we no longer need to follow the lists. It's
a lot more natural now, so that has been really
amazing to see.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
One of the things that we asked her to do
was to create a menu to make it kind of
fun with her husband, where they would write down the
things that they wanted to talk about with each other,
and then the other person gets to pick from that
menu what they are going to discuss in that conversation.
And so it kind of lightened things up a little
(06:06):
bit because these were very heavy topics that they were discussing,
and it also gave the other person some control over
what they would talk about. And it sounds like it
really opened up a space for them to continue to
have these kinds of conversations and really get the communication
going between the two of them.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
It really opened up a logjam because when there are
such important things that aren't being discussed, it's not just
that they're not being discussed, but then each person has
their own feeling and story about why it's not being
discussed and why they aren't, why the other person isn't,
and so having those discussions just freeze up communication in
all kinds of ways.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
And I think it's a sign that the homework assignment
was effective when they're still doing some form of that
a year later. And there's more to Savannah's updates, So
let's take a listen.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
There were two big moments that I had after we spoke.
One of them was that if I'm not able to
communicate on what I need, then he's never going to
be able to understand and get on the same page.
And while it's difficult, it is necessary. And if I
continue to shy away and not speak to it, even
if I'm doing it for what I think is a
(07:15):
good reason, We're never going to be able to move forward.
And so that has been one of the things that's
changed quite dramatically. The other big moment is that in
order for me to be able to communicate that I
need to figure it out. And so I am now
constantly working on figuring out what it is that I
(07:38):
want from life, for myself and for our relationship. And
it has been a really fun process, kind of scary,
but also necessary. And going through that process and bringing
him into that has been truly helpful. It's brought us closer,
and you know, I think he appreciates me doing something
(08:00):
for myself that is going to benefit.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
The both of us.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
Thank you again, and I'm really excited to see what
the future has in store for us.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
This is something our listeners might be able to see
in their own lives. Here's how this happens. When you
feel unable to communicate your feelings and needs to someone
for whatever reason, you can lose touch with what those
feelings and needs are because what's the point in trying
to figure them out if you're not going to communicate them,
And that can become such a vicious cycle.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Well, sometimes when we feel shut down in a relationship,
we realize that we're the ones shutting ourselves down. You
see how he was very receptive and welcomed, and it
was almost a relief to him to be able to
open up these lines of communication, and I think for
both of them. So sometimes we don't realize it, but
we're the ones who are shutting ourselves down because we're
afraid of what might happen if we voice what we're
(08:52):
really thinking or feeling. So I think this is a
great lesson for people that first get in touch with
what you're thinking and feeling and then make sure that
you communicate it.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
And this is a dynamic that we see often in
couples in which one of them has a chronic illness
or they're going through an extended crisis, that their communication
starts to become transactional. They talk about all the stuff
that needs to get done, and they stop going deeper.
One person feels hesitant to bring up their feelings because
they don't want to overburden the person who's suffering. Meanwhile,
(09:25):
the person who's suffering is feeling guilty about putting out
their partner, and so they sit on their feelings and
it can really create this dynamic in which they basically
stop talking about meaningful things.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
And it sounds like Savannah and her husband have started
to find those things again. What are the other parts
of their lives that they had been neglecting.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
You're listening to deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back
after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy
Wench and this is THEO therapist.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So really, with Savannah, it ended up being a session
about communication, and communication between couples comes up so much,
but usually we just hear from one person in the couple.
And in this next follow up, we have Ryan and
Beth from season one who came on the show together
to help resolve a disagreement that they've had for the
entire length of their marriage. They haven't been able to
agree on where they should live, and they both had
(10:30):
very compelling reasons to want to be in their respective cities,
and they've been in an impasse for a very long time.
Let's get a reminder.
Speaker 7 (10:41):
The level of importance that she and I would say
each of us put on being near family. After the
first eight years of our relationship, we had no family around,
and the fact that all of a sudden that was
like a number one primary desire was a little bit surprising.
(11:05):
I guess, so that would probably be my take.
Speaker 8 (11:08):
I think I learned how much you really didn't want
to live in New York.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
I think I thought you were trying, that you.
Speaker 7 (11:17):
Were really just over it and wanted to get out
of there. I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So often when we see couples in therapy, people assume
that they're coming to us because they are arguing all
the time. There's a lot of acrimony between them, and
that's often not the case. In Ryan and best case,
they had this decision to make about where to live
and for their entire marriage. Even though they loved each
(11:46):
other very much and were able to communicate about other
things pretty well, they weren't able to resolve this issue
of do we live where Ryan's parents live, or do
we live where Best's mom lives? And it was a
very big issue that was causing a lot of resentment
for both of them. So let's hear what happened since
(12:07):
the session.
Speaker 5 (12:09):
This is Beth and this is Ryan.
Speaker 7 (12:11):
Good news is we are communicating better.
Speaker 8 (12:14):
Yeah, and from just a point of view for twenty
twenty one versus where we were in twenty twenty, we
went through an entire first floor innovation on our house
and one of our mantras was we will not divorce
over this, and we didn't, so that's good success. We
(12:36):
successfully also visited with family, which was really important and
helpful for all of those relationships. And it sounds a
little silly when you're a grown up, but we've made
some friends and that feels like really important outlets for
both of us. We made friends through different exercise programs
(13:00):
and a lot of our friends overlap and it's been
huge for us.
Speaker 7 (13:05):
Yeah, And just tonight I went over and helped the
neighbor move a bed and it felt very neighborly in
settled and it was nice.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
So it sounds like they're settling into where they have been,
which is where Ryan's family is and I think the
important piece here is that they're learning to communicate with
each other differently. And once they have started to communicate
differently with each other, you can see how that opens
up the possibilities.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Part of what was happening with them because of this
disagreement about geography was they weren't really making a home
anywhere anywhere, And so at least now they're starting to
actually make a home, put down roots, make friends, do
the things you need to do to feel like you
belong somewhere.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And I think that's important because as an adult, it's
much harder to make friends, especially in a new place,
because I think that for most of us as adults,
we either have made friends when we were younger that
come with us in some way, or were already ensconced
in a community and we've established roots there and they
hadn't done that yet, or we make them through our kids.
And here she was really making an effort to kind
(14:16):
of feel settled and make this place her home.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
So let's hear some more from Ryan and Beth.
Speaker 7 (14:22):
I think it helped us. I recognize that we did
have one upsmanship, and so we came to realize that
we needed to back off of that and focus on
the tender core and getting past those hard outer feelings.
So that I think helped us a lot as we
talked through our communication challenges.
Speaker 8 (14:45):
Yeah, and that this doesn't have to be brin smanship.
It doesn't have to be you know, well, my pain
is worse than your pain and we can hold both
at the same time, and that's life. And I think
it helped us both really understand that about it each other.
I think we've also let ourselves feel settled. I think
that was one of the things that Laurie pointed out,
(15:06):
that if we're always feeling a little like we're nomads,
then will we ever feel settled? And will we ever
feel good.
Speaker 5 (15:13):
About where we are?
Speaker 8 (15:14):
And we have met some great people and our kids
are settled, I would say, in good community and family
nearby and all of that.
Speaker 5 (15:22):
So I think things are going better. I think we're
communicating better.
Speaker 8 (15:25):
I think that realization about the tender core underneath the
herd outer shell to sound cliched was kind of a
game changer, just thinking through, yeah.
Speaker 5 (15:35):
How you can.
Speaker 8 (15:39):
Want to hide true emotions.
Speaker 7 (15:41):
And then I'll say it has helped me have more
direct and open conversations with many of my male friends,
which is not something that we generally do. So it's
been positive to help me work through that tough, manly
outer shell that many of us carry and talk more
openly with men.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
What I think is really hopeful here is that no
matter what they end up deciding, and I don't think
that they're quite there yet. I think that Beth is
kind of trying this on right now, and it might
not be where they ultimately end up, but I think
what's important here is that they've learned what was tripping
them up in the kind of communication they had around this,
which can also translate to the other kinds of conversations
(16:25):
that they will inevitably have to have in the course
of a marriage. And one of the things that they
were doing was they had this, whose pain is greater
if I go to your city, will my pain be greater?
So therefore we should go to my city, And it
was sort of this one upsmanship, you know, the pain
Olympics that they were going through, and I think that
they're starting to realize, wait a minute, there also are
(16:46):
reasons that each of us wants to be in these
respective cities. And when they could see the very tender
parts of each other and the very vulnerable parts of
each other. It gave them so much more compassion for
the other person and for the other person's reasons for
wanting to be somewhere else, and also the sacrifices that
they would be making if they ended up in a
(17:08):
city that was not their first choice.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
And I think Ryan is being very supportive, which is great,
but really my head soft to Beth. I think she
went from being in such a rigid place of that
brinksmanship of the pan Olympics to known I could never
ever ever be happy there, and one of the exercises
we actually gave her was to imagine being happy there.
(17:31):
But I think she did such a great job of
opening up and really giving it a chance and being
very authentic about it. And my hands off to her.
That was a big, big shift that she did.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
And I would also say hats off to Ryan because
he really was able, for maybe the very first time
in his life to go to that more vulnerable place
that he tends to avoid. And he was talking about
how he normally doesn't go there, and I think that
that happens more often with men than with women, and
(18:05):
I don't want to make a sweeping statement about gender.
But I see that in our culture we tend to
give a message to men that being vulnerable is weak.
And what Ryan did was not only was he able
to be vulnerable with Beth, but then he started to
be more open and vulnerable with his male friends. And
I think that that really speaks to the shift that
(18:27):
he made from this conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
And Ryan and Beth had one last thing to share
with us.
Speaker 7 (18:34):
One of the things I realized was we were also
escalating with our kids. Oh yeah, and so it's helped
us be better parents of don't escalate and just be
open and love them and hug them if need be,
but don't escalate. Thought that was wonderful guidance for parenting.
Speaker 8 (18:54):
Yeah, with marriage, our older son is an escalator.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I don't know where he gets from.
Speaker 8 (19:00):
So it's helpful to kind of remember that when he's
escalating too, there's probably something to work through underneath that.
Speaker 4 (19:08):
So thank you Thinks.
Speaker 7 (19:11):
For lessons and insights.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Couples tend to escalate a lot, especially when they're dealing
with conflictual issues like Beth and Ryan were, but they
also learn how to manage their feelings and to de
escalate and to prevent that, and their healthy communication has improved.
And so for couples, when they do that kind of
work with their emotional regulation and their healthy communication is improving.
(19:38):
It's really beneficial for the kids. The kids get to
see good modeling. They learn that you can be upset,
but you can also manage those feelings and cope with
all the frustrations that you might have when you love someone.
So I think they're doing a great job of not
just managing their own relationship, but really modeling a new
and improved one for their kids.
Speaker 7 (19:57):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
One of their concerns about where they were going to
live was how that was going to affect the lives
of their kids. They wanted to pick a place that
not only each of them wanted to be in, but
where would their kids have the best upbringing. One of
the best gifts that you can give your kids is
modeling emotional regulation. Modeling what do you do with your
(20:18):
feelings and when you have parents who can communicate well
and effectively and in a healthy way and be vulnerable too.
So emotional regulation is not about don't have feelings, It's
about being able to have your feelings and then to
manage them in a productive way in the family, and
no matter where they decide to live, the gift that
(20:40):
has come out of this is that their kids are
going to get that good modeling from their parents.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
So communication problems don't just happen between couples. They happen
among siblings as well. And when we met Danica, she
was really struggling with her younger brother, Blake, who felt
very much left out of the family. She and her
brother John were older than Blake and his kids. They
(21:11):
were quite cruel to him and he has never gotten
over it and he feels very much apart from them,
and she wants to rectify the situation, but she doesn't
know how and anything she's tried hasn't worked. Let's get
a reminder of our session with Danica.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Blake asked us repeatedly, what does it mean to you
to be a sibling?
Speaker 7 (21:37):
To me? Like, what.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Can he really count on from us? We would say, well,
what does family look like for you? And it would
be I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
I think because what he's trying to convey to you
is a feeling, and the feeling that he has is
that I'm not part of this group.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
Still, what have those conversations been like where you go
back and take full responsibility for the extent of the
pain that you caused him.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
It's very emotional, you know, to say that, yes, I
was awful, you were very much on your own as
like a five or a six year old. Yes, I
did ignore you, didn't play with you. To have said
that I wish you weren't born, you know, to a
little kid like that, and I have said that I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
So let's hear how things are going between them now, Hi.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Laurie, Hi guy. Unfortunately, I can't say that there has
been dramatic changes. So what has changed is I try
to reach out to Blake more regularly. He actually doesn't
seem all that receptive towards phone calls. He's pretty sensitive
(23:03):
about feeling like I'm making a forced effort to contact him.
I don't think he likes feeling like I'm contacting him
out of obligation or as like a chore, and so
he doesn't like having scheduled calls. So I've been texting
(23:26):
him more and catching up that way.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
You know, Laurie, there might not be dramatic changes in
how Blake feels, but there are meaningful changes in Danaka's
understanding of the dynamics between them in how they communicate. Blake,
for example, convoys that he needs her efforts to feel authentic,
and when she hears that, she goes okay. So maybe
scheduled calls doesn't do that. Let's pivot to texts because
(23:52):
those tend to be most spontaneous and casual, and maybe
that will feel better to him. So she's willing to
change what she's doing and try and find ways to
connect with him, and so far it doesn't sound like
it's gone amazingly will but the fact that those efforts
are going forth, that he's able to voice his concerns,
that she's able to hear them, that's an improvement.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
And building trust takes a lot of time, and I
think there were two things that were really important for
Danica to keep in mind when it came to Blake.
The first was that he did want to have the
sense of being part of the family, feeling like he
was one of the siblings, and that there wasn't this
kind of feeling of being an outsider. But I think
the other part that was extremely important was for Danica
(24:34):
to acknowledge and very directly that she did not treat
him well as a child, and I think he really
needs to hear that and to hear it from an
authentic place where she really gets it. And I think
in our session it did take a little bit of
work for her to really get to a place where
she could do that without the butts or the reasons why.
(24:54):
And the more that that happens, the more trust will
develop between the two of them.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
The other thing in the session was that she kept
tethering herself to John, to the other brother and at
least it sounds like the communication now is just between
Danica and Blake in that way, so it's not we
me and John and then Blake is over there. It's
Danika trying to fold some kind of connection that's just
her and Blake. Let's hear some more from Danica.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I do feel more at peace with how things are.
It was helpful talking with you and for me either.
The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with
Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship
because of our circumstances in childhood and how that's still
(25:47):
carrying over into adulthood, and that kind of framing really
helped me feel less confused about what it was that
Blake was looking towards me for and to some extent,
what it is that he's looking for me now. I
think for us it's going to be a matter of
(26:10):
incremental improvements as I show consistency in reaching out to
him and taking an interest in his life, hopefully will
cease positive change over time. Thank you again for all
of your help and time and insights.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
One of the things that happens when you have parents
who maybe aren't really as present as you would like
them to be, and you're the younger sibling and then
you have two older siblings who are very close with
each other, is that those two older siblings become the
surrogate parents. And Blake was really left alone so much
of the time on his own with nobody there, and
(26:56):
Danica talked about how neglectful she and John and her
brother were toward Blake, And so I think that there's
some of that repair work to do around that piece
in terms of not only what happened, but who are
they to each other now as adults where there isn't
that parental relationship, but they really are adult siblings. And
(27:18):
I think Danica still has this story in her head
that somehow she has so much more in common with
John and she can't possibly find overlap with these interests
with Blake, even though they did when they were in
their early twenties have some of that relationship where they
found some overlap. And I think she has more work
to do to understand why she's so blocked there, because
(27:40):
I think that when she gets unblocked there, she will
naturally become more authentic in the way she relates to Blake,
and Blake will feel her presence in a way that
he never did as that abandoned little child growing up.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
I agree, And I think the part of the hurdle
Danka faces is that she is very sensitized to how
hurt Blake is and how rejected he still feels so
many years later. And I think that that makes it
very difficult for her because we're saying to her, yeah,
be authentic with him, but it's so hard to be
(28:15):
authentic when she's worried about hurting his feelings, when she's
worried about saying the wrong things. And so I think
it's really a delicate, difficult path that she has to
find there, And I think the best way for her
to find it is really just to get interested in
who this person is now as an adult, get to
know him in a way that you haven't before you're
both older. You get to know him, ask him questions.
(28:37):
Almost start from scratch, and I hope she can get
over the hesitation she has because of wanting to not
hurt him in any way, shape or form again, so
that she can be more authentic with him and he
would feel that and probably respond quite well to me.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I like what you said about starting from scratch, because
I think these roles that we have as children become
so ingrained that it's very hard to pivot from them,
and so I think that we do have to do
this with our siblings as adults, no matter what the
issue is, is to really start from scratch and not
be like, well, you were always the smart one, or
you were always the favored one, or you were always
(29:14):
the beautiful one, or you know, whatever it might be,
and to really say who are we now that we
are adults and we are not children living in that
house anymore.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
And I think any siblings who have not had a
close relationship as adults can do that. Get to know
one another as if you were strangers. And you'll be
really surprised to learn who that sibling is now and
for them to get to know who you are now.
And it's a great way to think about how to
connect with siblings or any family members with whom you
(29:45):
haven't been closed and adulted.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
And I think that starts with curiosity, being really curious
about the other person, and not just in the sibling situation,
but I think in any situation where we're talking about
improving communication, it has to start with curiosity. You're listening
to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back
after a short break, so I'm thinking about the last
(30:20):
person we're going to catch up with today, and that
is Amy. And Amy came to us because she was
uncomfortable with the fact that her boyfriend that she was
very serious with was still taking care of his ex
girlfriend's dog and I think the dog was actually living
with him at times, and the boundaries just seemed very
(30:41):
blurred to her and she did not know how to
communicate effectively with him around this. So let's get a
reminder of what was going on.
Speaker 9 (30:52):
I said, you know, it's really funny. I have never
met this person, but I hate her already.
Speaker 5 (30:58):
Because she is.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
In the middle of our relationship.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You are very clear with him that the dog bothers you,
but you also say that you don't want to tell
him what to do about the friendship quote unquote correct
with this X if you feel comfortable saying to him,
this dog shouldn't be here, why don't you feel comfortable
saying and your friendship with this woman who keeps reappearing
and sabotaging the dates you have, she shouldn't be in
(31:23):
the picture either.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
I guess you doubt yourself. I think, Okay, does this.
Speaker 9 (31:27):
Dog represent the woman? Is this dog a connection? Or
am I just totally over analyzing a situation. Can he
have a friendship with this person? I mean, he has
mentioned that he's known for twenty something years, But I said,
this is not a friend. I said, I don't have
sex with my friends.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
You know, Laurie, Amy had reason to be concerned about
his ex because she had a history of sabotaging his relationships,
including his marriage, So there was all kinds of reasons
for concern. There here where Amy is today and the
dog and the boyfriend.
Speaker 9 (32:04):
Hi, Laurien guy, this is Amy. I am happy to
report that my boyfriend and I are still together and
the dog has not reappeared, and neither has the ex girlfriend.
Something that I have learned and reflected on a lot, though,
is I don't know that the dog incident was isolated.
(32:24):
And what I mean by that is, I think it's
tied to bigger issues. I know we spoke about boundaries,
so it's tied to bigger issues of boundaries and also guilt.
I know he suffers from just an incredible amount of
guilt from his divorce and not being able to spend
time with his kids. So I think the dog not
only for him did it mean a failed relationship guilt again,
(32:49):
but giving it back was also for him. He felt
guilty because he wasn't sure it was going to be
well taken care of well.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
I think Amy's right that it's never just about the dog,
and member that her boyfriend had so much guilt that
he was holding about having disappointed his wife and leaving
the marriage, and then the question of what was going
to happen to his kids and how were they going
to be affected by the divorce, and then how was
(33:18):
his ex girlfriend going to feel. They also had an
on again, off again relationship that kept reappearing, but they
were also friends for a very long time, and he
was going to disappoint her. So I think there were
so many things going on for him in addition to
the bigger issue of really cutting ties with that part
(33:39):
of his life and being able to move on to
a healthy relationship with Amy.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
And I think what we usually see in our office
is that when somebody has murky boundaries in one area,
for example, who's taking care of the dog, we will
find those milky boundaries in another area. People tend to
either like clarity or avoid creating it. And if he's
the kind of person that really finds it hard to
(34:06):
set clear boundaries and expectations in his own head, let
alone for others, that's probably something that goes on in
all kinds of different areas of his life.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
And I think it's very hopeful that when they had
a direct conversation about this, that he really stepped up
and set those boundaries that he was saying to her,
you were important to me, I value you, and I
know that I need to do this for our relationship
to succeed. And I think that sent her a very
strong message of support. So let's hear what else happened.
Speaker 9 (34:37):
I think the biggest hurdle we have is when they
got divorced while it was amicable, because he felt so guilty,
he assumed ninety nine point nine percent of all the
financial responsibilities. His ex wife doesn't work. She still has
a credit card with him, which is supposed to be
(34:57):
exclusively for growth trees things for the kids, but it's
just really murky. I mean, they are legally divorced, but
he still pays for everything. So that's a really big
challenge for us right now because we're communicating very openly
about it. How if it's not fixed, we can't move forward.
(35:18):
He's slow to act, and I know why. I know
he doesn't. He doesn't like conflict, so he feels like
by engaging in this negotiation, the ex wife might prevent
him from seeing his kids as often as he liked
because they co parent, and might even request SPO custody.
(35:39):
So that's the big hurdle that we're facing now. And
I reflect a lot on what you said, Laurie during
our last call, which was make sure you don't wait
too long. So thank you again for listening.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Well, I think it's great that she got the message
that she shouldn't wait too long to have these conversations,
because she talked about how he avoids conflict, and I
think that when you're in a relationship with someone who
avoids conflict, it's really important that you don't become complicit
in that that you then don't say, well, I'm just
not going to bring it up because I know that
(36:12):
it makes the other person uncomfortable for me to bring
it up. And I think that that worked very well
with setting some clear boundaries around the other woman with
the dog, who he had trouble not having sex with
whenever she would come around. And while there were times
where he could hold that boundary, there were times when
he couldn't. So that was a very clear cut situation
(36:34):
where she knew what she needed, he knew if he
wanted to have this relationship with Amy, and that seemed
to work out well so far. I think here it's
a little more complicated because not only is he conflict avoidant,
but there's a real consequence to bringing this up with
his ex wife, which is that it might affect how
she handles the custody situation around the kids, And so
(36:58):
I think that it's important for them to really talk
about money in their relationship and how money is going
to be handled between them and also with his kids
and his ex wife. But I think she also has
to understand that there's a consequence out there for him
that he kind of has to dance around a little
bit differently. So it doesn't mean don't set the boundary.
(37:18):
It means they're really going to have to work together
to come up with something that works for both of
them in this relationship.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
And here again, as we've seen in the other updates,
communication is absolutely key because Amy has a need to
have clarity about what are the parameters of our relationship
hers and her boyfriends, and that is related to the
parameters of his relationship with his ex wife, his parenting,
all those things. And I'm really glad to hear that
(37:49):
Amy is still as she was when we spoke to her,
really clear about being able to voice what her needs
and feelings are and getting her boyfriend, who is much
less prone to clarity, to become more and more clear
about his needs and feelings and what she can expect.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
And I think that when two people start communicating, it's
beneficial to both people. So it's not like they started
communicating and Amy got things in the relationship that benefit her,
but it also benefits him to be in a healthier
relationship with Amy, and in this case, to really examine
his guilt and his avoidance and his blurry boundaries that
(38:30):
maybe have tripped him up in relationships before, so that
he can have a healthier path moving forward. So he's
got to really differentiate here, what are some boundaries I
can set around money with my ex, and what are
some things where it's really the guilt talking and not
about some negative consequence that might happen. And I think
that what we've seen with all of the updates that
(38:51):
we've gotten this week is that communication might not solve
the problem immediately, but it gets people on a path
so that they can start to get to a place
where they will be able to move forward and negotiate
their relationships in a much smoother way.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
And I think the other thing that we've seen is
that when one person in a family, or in a couple,
or in any kind of relationship starts to communicate more
clearly and more openly, it forces in a way, the
other person to match that or to come toward it,
and so that can really have a ripple effect. I'm
sure Amy's X is learning a lot about communication from
(39:30):
being with Amy, and I'm sure that the family members
and partners of all our guests that we covered this
week have learned from them as well. And so I
just want to urge our listeners. If you are in
a situation that you feel is murky, clarify what your
thoughts and feelings are and then speak up and communicate
(39:52):
openly with the other person.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Because it always feels like a relief. So next week
we'll be back with our regular sessions, and we'll be
talking with a woman who has a history of addictions
that she is now in recovery for, but she has
recently developed a new addiction, and that is to shopping.
Speaker 7 (40:16):
I didn't realize that that's what was happening until I
was six thousand dollars in debt.
Speaker 5 (40:22):
I think that's what makes me feel vulnerable. Is to
say this a loud.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, And please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Big O Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia
dot com.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lyfton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
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