January 7, 2025 • 52 mins
Hey, Fellow Travelers. This week we’re checking in with Elena, Libby, Liam, and Haley for an update since their sessions with us last year. All of them were grappling with how to free themselves--from a person, situation, or their own problematic beliefs--and we think you’ll be inspired by hearing what’s happened in their lives since then.
If you have a dilemma you’d like to discuss with us—big or small—email us at LoriAndGuy@iHeartMedia.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
find out how our advice worked out.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
A year later, Guy had said that he didn't think
I understood how bad it had been, and then Laurie
actually later on said that oftentimes people are hesitant to
confront those painful experiences because of what it might say
about them.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And I'll be honest, that was a really hard one.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
But getting unstuck is also what's open myself up a
lot more to finally feeling happy and hopeful.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
First, a quick note, theo therapist is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not
a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:26):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity. And the sessions you'll hear all names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Hi, Guy, Hey Laurie.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
So guy.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
I'm really excited because today we're doing another special episode
where we are hearing updates from our season one sessions
and the theme of today is freeing yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
That is an important theme and the first person we're
going to hear from is Elena. Elena, to remind our listeners,
came to us to get help because she had the
chronically cheating husband who she had been with for seventy years.
And by chronically cheating, I literally mean could enter the
Cheating Olympics with how much cheating was going on.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yes, I remember that they would go to a therapy
session and he would say, Okay, I'm not going to
cheat and then within twenty four hours he would be
cheating again.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Right, So let's get a reminder of what was going
on for Elena in last year's session.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
So it has come out that the relations have been
with men. However, my husband is very closed off. He
kind of just wants it to go away. He doesn't
want to discuss it in detail. He acknowledges that it happened,
yet he doesn't want to talk about it. He just
kind of wants to forget about it. Then there's that
(02:45):
wall built, that avoidancy of him not talking about it,
shutting down, refusing to discuss it, and eventually he'll leave
the home or the other side where he's angry and
super distant. The other side of it is when we're
in therapy, it's like a twitch, like he'll talk about
(03:06):
it and he'll say he feels attacked, or he feels
like he's disgusting, or he feels that I find him disgusting,
kind of working through how he feels.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, it was not a good situation. So I am
very curious to hear where Elena is today.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah, let's take a listen.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
My name is Elena, and I called and spoke with
Lauri and Guy in regards to my husband who was
having affairs, and I was also stationed overseas, so I
was isolated away from any family and friends and really
any support system to confide in and deal with, you know,
(03:56):
all that which was going on. So since I've spoken
with them, it's been a little over a year. My
husband and I are no longer together. We've separated officially
just a few months after I spoke with Gloria Guy,
and then the divorce was finalized in October of twenty twenty.
(04:17):
So is pretty quick.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Wow, that is very quick. That's less than a year.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, And on the one hand, I'm a little bit
surprised that it was that quick because she was so
reluctant to make a move when we talked. And I
think it's interesting because you and I felt like he's
not changing. She's been through so much with him, and
he is not interested in changing. So sometimes people say,
(04:44):
why won't this person change even though they say they
want to change. I think he knew he didn't want
to change, but he wasn't willing to say that to
her because of the consequence, which is that she would
probably leave. And sometimes therapists, you know, we don't tell
people what to stay in marriages or leave, but when
they're so problematic and there is so much suffering, we
(05:05):
hope that someone will come to that conclusion to save themselves.
And when Elena came to us, she seemed clear that
she was done, but she also wasn't ready to move
forward because I think she had so much grieving to
be done.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, we often don't say to someone, hey, you should
really leave this marriage, but we will leave a trail
of bread crumbs leading them to that conclusion if it's warranted.
In this case, it wasn't even bread crumbs. Loaves of
bread led a trail to like, hey, Elena, get out.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
And I want to be clear that we aren't there
to decide for people what they should do. So when
we say we leave the bread crumbs, it's not as
though we think we know best for them, because there
are people who they would rather be in a situation
that maybe you or I guy would say, oh that's
not for me, but it is for them, and even
though it's not ideal, it's problematic, they would rather be
(05:59):
in that for whatever reason. So we want them to
ask the important questions of themselves so they can come
to their own conclusion about what they want to do,
and that's what I think the breadcrumbs are.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
The thing is about Elena is that she actually knew
that this was really bad for her, that he wasn't changing,
that this wasn't working. The thing she really struggled to
do was to cut the cord and make the decision,
and given how quickly the divorce was finalized after speaking
with her, just months after we spoke with her, I
am so curious to hear what happened.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, I am too.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
So what happened is so we were living in Italy
overseas and March then my husband got called back to
the States. Well, I and his children from a previous
marriage were left in Italy. When he went back to
(06:57):
the States and the country we went into complete shutdown.
We were unable to leave the country and get back home,
and that just increased the stress in our relationship at
the time, but also just me being the only adult
in the household with three kids depending on me. I'm
(07:19):
not the biological mother, but you know, the step parent. There.
Further complicated things were my husband wasn't really communicating during
this time. He wasn't calling us on the phone, he
wouldn't answer I don't know messages. Really really kind of
(07:41):
left alone, you know, with the stresses of going to
school online and three different kids in three different grades
and three different schools. You know, I was really overwhelmed.
That was something that my husband couldn't be empathetic about,
and so that really hurt the marriage further.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
So Wow, and there are a couple of Wow moments
for me, I guess the biggest one is that we
didn't know there were kids in the picture. Now, in
regular psychotherapy, we get to ask a lot of background
questions and we will find out very soon if there
were children or any other people that are relevant in
the picture. But in the sessions we do for the podcast,
(08:26):
we only have a very short amount of time, and
there was nothing in what she was telling us to
indicate that there were children there, and certainly that there
were his children from a previous marriage, and even more
so that she was a big part of taking care
of them. That is a big surprise for me.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, that is such a surprise that we had that
entire session with her and not want did it come
up that he had kids from another marriage. And it's
not uncommon for people to leave things out in sessions,
even when we are seeing them for psychotherapy. And I
think that the reason that people leave things out is
(09:08):
because if they bring something up, it forces them to
face a truth that they might not be ready to.
And so for Elena, if she had added this information that, oh,
by the way, not only is he chronically cheating on
me and lying to me and gaslighting me and calling
me crazy, but also I'm taking care of his three kids,
(09:29):
And if she had added that, it would be even
more clear how untenable the situation was at a point
when she wasn't quite ready to face it entirely.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And the fact that while he was in America and
Elena was taking care of his three kids, he wasn't
reaching out even to be in touch with his kids,
so he was abandoning the kids as well, just shows
such a complete disregard for his family relationships and how
much he was incredibly focused on himself and on what
(10:02):
he wanted and needed in that time and truly shut
everyone else out, including apparently Elena, not just Elena.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And even then, even with the anxiety that she must
have been experiencing to be with his kids and to
be so far away, and to not know what was
going on with him and to not be in any
contact with him. That just incredibly anxiety provoking, and still
she was not ready to leave. So let's hear what
(10:32):
happened next.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
And then, you know, I found out that while he's
in America and I'm in Italy with his kids, he's
having affairs still, and he was open to me about
that that he was seeing someone and not just one time,
but multiple times. So when it was time that we
could finally leave the country to come back to America,
(10:56):
I asked him not to pick me up at the airport.
Needed some time to myself to kind of really decide
if I wanted to move forward. So I think I
landed on a Tuesday, and then on that Thursday is
when he told me he no longer wanted to work
(11:17):
on the relationship. And that's something that I struggle with
because I know that our marriage ended because he chose
to walk away, and I don't know if that's something
that I could have done eventually or maybe in six months,
(11:42):
maybe in a year, maybe in three years. It's something
that I kind of struggle with, knowing what is in
my past or what is going on internally that made
me stay in that relationship for as long as I did,
with as much toxicity and it that there was. You know,
(12:02):
it was definitely something that needed to happen, and I
think the timing was well when it happened. It was
just I wasn't there yet. I wasn't ready to walk
away yet, and it was it was very difficult for me,
So I can't take the credit of walking away from
that relationship. But now I am understanding that it needed
(12:25):
to happen and it was for the best.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So here again, even with him not being a real
partner and communicating during COVID while she's alone with his
three kids and telling her he was sleeping with other people,
Elena still wasn't ready to leave him, and it's going
to be very important for her to understand why that is.
I'm glad that she's asking herself that question. I remember
(12:50):
in our session she mentioned that her mother had been
cheated on as well, and so I'm guessing that there's
some intergenerational pattern or tree trauma that's being played out
here that she's going to have to understand better.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I think part of why Elena really couldn't leave and
I certainly understand why it's upsetting for her that, given everything,
he was the one to break up with her. But
when you live with somebody who's gaslighting you so profoundly
and for such a long time, doing outrageous, outrageous things,
and telling you that your reactions are outrageous or out
(13:24):
of control or you're the crazy one, it makes you
lose touch with your internal compass. You no longer know
what's up and what's down, on what's right and what's wrong.
And even if you think you're justified, you're just not
sure because all you hear is that's an overreaction, you're
out of control, you're crazy. And I think over the
years what happened to Elena is she just lost all perspective. Now,
(13:48):
we gave her an assignment to help get some of
that back, but I think that loss for her was profound.
She simply couldn't trust herself, and she didn't trust herself
to make that decision, especially when she was still isolated
in a foreign country. I think she lost all ability
to be in touch with what reality is and what's reasonable.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, the isolation was a big part of it, and
that's why we had her tell her friends what was
going on, so she could get a reality check on that.
And we also had her write down every incident that
happened so that she could see it on the page,
which also helps with reality checking. But then you still
have him coming in saying, Oh, you're getting upset about
this thing. You're overreacting what's happening. You're crazy, And you
(14:33):
know that goes on for years and years, and it
becomes very hard to locate your internal compass.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
And I guess in that way, his leaving was a
gift for help because she wasn't able to and maybe
she would have become more able to once she got back,
but him leaving and doing it so abruptly and so
much in line with his other inconsiderate, really selfish actions,
I think was nonetheless a gift. Because she wasn't able
to push the check button, he pushed it for her.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, and I think she needs to reframe it that way.
I think a lot of people feel like, I've been
through all of this with you, and you're the one
who's dumping me, which is I think what she kind
of grapples with a little bit here, and what I
want to say to Elena is this absolutely was a
gift to her. I hope that she will consider it
that and especially moving forward when she experiences and tastes
(15:25):
her freedom, I think she's going to see it more
and more as a gift.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
So let's here's the more. There's more from Elena Lettier.
What happens next?
Speaker 5 (15:34):
So yeah, so he still oversees and I am a
stateside in a city with friends and family. When I
got back to the States, my family and friends threw
me a big welcome home party. I just broke down
in tears with the amount of love that was shut
on me. They're at that party. Since all of this,
(15:54):
I've met someone super wonderful and great. They've been really
patient with mine a healing process of everything.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I love hearing this because once you leave a situation
like that, you often find the people who are there
for you and who want to meet your needs. So
that great reception and homecoming from family and friends and
now a new boyfriend who's there for her and having
that understanding with her healing process, I'm just so delighted
(16:23):
to hear this.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
And I think it's not a coincidence that once she
was able to receive in person and true love and
care from the people around her. Then it opened her
up and allowed her to receive it from a romantic
partner as well.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
That's right. There's a two way dynamic going on, which
is not only when you're in that situation can you
not see things clearly, but you're not open to the
kind of person who's going to give you what you
want and what you need. And once she was out
of that situation, that opened her up to the possibility
of something new, and Elena had a little bit more
(17:02):
to say. Let's hear what that is.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
Some of the things that I took away were at
one point they said that I was having these big
emotional reactions to traumatic events, and that validated my feelings
of like, yeah, these are big traumatic events, and you know,
having an emotional reaction is okay. Because at that point,
(17:28):
I'd been called crazy. I'd been called out of control
so often that I felt that, well, maybe I am irrational,
maybe I am crazy. But when they kind of said that,
that really helped validate my feelings.
Speaker 7 (17:41):
You know.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Also, with my husband calling me out of control all
the time, you're out of control, you know, guy said, well,
aren't his actions out of control? And so that really
validated for me those feelings.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yes, this is exactly what we were talking about. I'm
so glad she can see that.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Absolutely. That's really good to hear that she's clear about
those things. So there's just one last piece I think
that we haven't heard yet. Let's hear the end and
have things are really in now.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
The other thing that I've done, I guess, is create
boundaries in my life and other relationships. So with family
members that I needed to have boundaries, and then also
with friendships even I've had to put some boundaries. And
(18:32):
then even as far as getting back into dating after
the divorce, I would see those all too familiar red
flags and know like, okay, I've been here, done that. No,
thank you, this is a boundary for me, and this
isn't acceptable.
Speaker 8 (18:52):
So that's really you know.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
I can't thank Glory and Guy enough for what they've
done in my life and hopefully my story has had
some impact on someone else's life. And I just really
appreciate this avenue here for people to listen or to
hear from you guys in something that they might really
(19:15):
be struggling with. So thank you so much, Lori and Guy.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Right so here again once you become aware of what
you need, you feel empowered to ask for that in
relationships going forward, and you won't settle for less. And
she found someone who seems to meet those desires that
she has about how she wants to be treated, about honesty,
about presence, about connection. And the reason that we do
(19:39):
this podcast is that we feel that each person's story
in session does impact someone else's life. And there are
many Elena's out there who have been lied to, are gaslighted,
and we really hope that this session is helpful to them.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So thank you Elena for coming on and sharing your
story with us and with our listeners. And you know
that exercise we gave you to think about a good
life you might have in five years time. We actually
think it might be quite good.
Speaker 9 (20:08):
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Absolutely, you're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 9 (20:15):
We'll be back after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and.
Speaker 9 (20:25):
I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So let's hear our next update. Our next fellow traveler
from season one also had to free herself, but this
time it was from the pressure that she was putting
on herself. And I love this one because Libby was
only sixteen, but she knew something had to change.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
And I love it because that same insight took me
probably a couple of decades longer than Libby to figure
out me too. So just as a reminder, Libby was
a junior in high school and she was putting a
lot of pressure on herself to do super well, so
much so that she really didn't have much of life
and she was feeling very stressed out. And we helped
(21:08):
Leby see that real success means having ambition but also
having a life.
Speaker 10 (21:15):
My course load is pretty heavy. I'm on the leadership
I think five different clubs at my school, and two
of them are extremely prominent, so I usually have about
like three meetings a week with that, and I also
volunteer at the food bank eight hours every Saturday. I
really do try to like put a lot of effort
(21:36):
into my school work. I do feel like the way
that like the college system and everything is kind of
set up is that you kind of have to go
through this in your teenage years, like there's not really
much time for taking it easier, just like taking a
step back, and especially because I know so many other
kids are competing It's just I do think I'd saying
(22:00):
that makes me happy. I just I don't know if
I'm able to do that to reach my goals.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
She had put a lot of our advice into practice
that very first week and seemed to be doing better.
I'm curious to hear how she's doing now about a
year later.
Speaker 8 (22:17):
Hi, guys, it's Libby here.
Speaker 10 (22:19):
I just finished up junior year, and I can definitely
see improvement in myself, not just in grades in my resume,
but ultimately in my sense of self. School did get
a lot more stressful, and I did of those weeks.
Speaker 8 (22:29):
Of crunch time.
Speaker 10 (22:30):
But the biggest change I made was just letting my
brain chill out by scheduling and time to relax.
Speaker 8 (22:35):
None mind.
Speaker 10 (22:36):
I taught myself that this rest was a given, not
something I should feel guilty about. I tried to listen
to my body in my brain, and I recognized and
I was just tired and needed that rest. I began
treating myself like a friend who I wanted to help succeed.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Wow. That was great to hear. There's so many key
elements that are important in what Libby said. First of all,
she switched from self criticism when she felt the urge
to take a break to self compassion, which was a
very important move because then she's able to actually take
a break and not feel bad about it. She's also
paying attention to her body and how she's feeling, and
she's using that to signal her when she might need
(23:13):
to take a break, which is also another great move.
And the last thing, which I think is crucial for
so many people, is she's scheduling downtime. And for people
who have a lot on their plate, who tend to
be busy and overstressed, if you don't schedule downtime, if
you don't schedule me time or we time, it often
just doesn't happen.
Speaker 8 (23:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
And she also reframed downtime as essential as opposed to
wasting time. So I think before she felt like, oh
if I do something that is relaxing, that I'm not
being productive, And you think that that reframe helped to
minimize her guilt around taking the downtime and also being
able to benefit from it. And this is something that
highly driven people tend to struggle with.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Absolutely they do, and I'm one of them, and we
all need those reminders we do.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
We do sometimes here's a confession. Sometimes I actually listened
to this episode because I need the reminders myself in
my own life.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Right we called her Libby two. Libby Too was the
version that actually was more integrated and recognized the importance
of having a personal life. And sometimes I'll say to myself,
don't be Guy one, be Guy too. Right now, you
know and.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Schedules same.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, let's see what else we can done from Libby.
Speaker 10 (24:27):
My life was a lot of school and extracurriculars, yes,
but I can also pinpoint a lot of fun in
the last six months, dinner with an old friend or
a day out getting ice cream and driving with my
little brother. I feel more outgoing, more capable, and more
nuanced as an individual after making my life less black
and white of things I had to do and making
it more contechnicolor of things I wanted to do. Instead
(24:48):
of viewing this practice as self indulgent, I thought of
Luring Guy's advice that this balance was the most important thing.
Thank you so much, Louriing Guy. I'm going to try
and continue this path. I lot my best be shine through.
Speaker 11 (25:02):
Well.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
The best Libby is definitely shining through. And I love
that she mentioned the word fun, because I think so
many of us, as we get older, forget to have fun,
We forget that fun is an essential part of our lives.
We think I don't have time for that, and we
think it's optional. But it's not optional. And so I
think when we suggest a different perspective and a way
(25:24):
to reframe something, we can tell when somebody really gets it.
And it was clear in this episode that Libby really
got it. She said, you know, it clicked, And once
it does, then someone can make a whole bunch of
meaningful changes in lots of areas of their lives. And
you can see that Libby did that. And I want
our listeners to think this week about fun and when
(25:46):
they have fun, and if they're not having fun, what
can they do to have fun? And how can they
do it in the way that we suggested to Libby.
So it's not that you're dropping all of your responsibilities.
It's that one of your responsibilities is to have fun.
And I hope they'll re listen to the episode.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
That's so important because while they're people who throughout their
lives can have fun, naturally, most of us do get busy,
do have responsibilities, and there has to be a certain
intentionality about clearing the space and having the mindset for
just letting loose and having fun. And I am so
glad that Livy has that in mind. And I urge
(26:21):
all our listeners who have high pressure or high stressed
situations or lots of responsibilities to really make time and
have the intention to truly have fun.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And while we're talking about fun, our next update of
a fellow traveler from season one is from Liam, and
we really wanted Liam to have fun at his sister's wedding,
but he also was really struggling with this concept of freedom.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Liam was transitioning from female to male, but he was
very early on in his transition, and it brought up
the question of what does he wear to his sister's
wedding because it had gotten postponed because of COVID and
was supposed to happen before the transition began, but now
that it had, and now that it was still very early,
what does he wear that would make him comfortable that
(27:18):
his sister would be comfortable with. And that was the
conflict that he came.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
To us with, right, so let's hear what was happening
with him last year.
Speaker 7 (27:26):
As much as my family is very accepting. I think
that this issue really it shows that they aren't as
accepting as they think they are. Like my mother will
go march for gay rights and all of these things,
but you know, as soon as her son comes out
to her that he is part of the transgender community,
that's where issues start arising. And then it's like, Okay,
(27:48):
well maybe you're not as accepting as you think that
you are. And I think that that is showing a
little bit. With my sister, she has traditional values. It's
harder for me to fit those traditional values and still
be true to myself.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
So let me ask you this, what would it look
like to be true to yourself at Sarah's wedding?
Speaker 7 (28:09):
What would make me feel comfortable? Would be wearing men's
formal wear. The day of her wedding, I will be
taking my seventh testosterone shot, So my mind is somewhere,
and then my outer appearance is I feel is being
stuffed back into a closet.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
A lot of people said to us after they heard
this episode that even though a lot of the situations
in our podcast might not apply to them, that what
they heard in the podcast applied so much to their
own lives. So let's hear what happened with Liam, because
I think that it's going to be really relevant to
people who are both in Liam's situation and people who
(28:53):
maybe need to free themselves, both externally and internally in
various ways.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Hy Laurie Guy.
Speaker 12 (29:01):
When I first came on the show, I think I
was about one month on testosterone. Now I'm about eight
months on testosterone. I'm constantly feeling better and better about
myself every day, emotionally and physically, so that's been really nice.
I do have more trans friends as well. It's really
(29:22):
nice having friends within my community that can really understand
the problems that I face. Just really nice to be
able to talk to somebody. And I also am pretty
much out at work. Everybody pretty much uses my real name,
which is really nice.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
So I did follow the advice.
Speaker 12 (29:43):
The first bit I've actually failed to mention when I
did my initial callback, which was to sit down with
Sarah and just say, hey, I am really excited for you.
Sorry if that got lost in translation. The outfit is
not the focus. The focus is celebrating you and your
husband on your day. We did have that talk, and
(30:03):
I think it was a big sigh of relief for her.
I think it was really great that you guys pointed
out that she probably needed to hear that, because I
think she really did.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
So I'm smiling because what Liam was referring to is
that his homework was to talk to his sister about
what he would wear, but to tell her that he
was actually really excited about the wedding and excited for
her and all that stuff. And in the voicemail he
left us with the update that was included in that episode,
he forgot to mention that he did have that part
(30:37):
of the conversation, and he felt so bad about it.
He reached out to me on social media and said,
you know, I did tell her I was excited. I
did tell her that was the most important thing, and
I didn't mention that, And people are going to think
I'm terrible, and I'm like, no, no, no, I think
people know you really care about your sister. But I'm
so glad we gave him this opportunity now to correct
the record and let people know that he was very
focused on the sister and her happiness and her husband,
(31:00):
and in that conversation we absolutely emphasize those things.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah, and one thing I loved about that episode was
it was so clear how much Liam and his sister
cared about each other and loved each other and were
trying to be so respectful of one another, and they
both wanted the other person to be comfortable, and they
were sort of in a gridlock because of that, So
it was it was great that they were able to
(31:25):
have that conversation. And also going back to what Liam
said about finding a support network of other trans people,
which was another assignment that we had given him. We
had suggested virtual groups at the time, but he actually
went and found people in his community, which is of
course much better. Having that support as well as the
support in his family probably helped him to come out
(31:46):
at work as well, and so now that he's out everywhere,
that's such an important step in this process for him.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
And also the reminder that the two things that are
really important and way more than too frankly, but two
things that are important is the corrects and the correct name.
And the fact that he said people are using his
name at work his correct name at work was also
great to hear because that's a very meaningful thing. So
let's hear some more about what's happening with Liam.
Speaker 12 (32:13):
You guys touched upon two things that have since stayed
with me. The first, I think Laurie was the one
that said, how I externalize an internal conflict, and I
think I have done that so much in the past.
I'm so grateful that she mentioned that because I've been
way more vigilant about it. It's just something that I
(32:37):
can see a past pattern that I've had, so I've
definitely been working on that and figuring that out. And
the second bit that sometimes I'm so empathetic that I
don't prioritize myself enough. That is also something I've seen
a pattern in my past about tremendously. I'm not going
to lose that empathy that I have for others, but
(33:00):
I'm also not going to allow it to be prioritized
in front of things I need to do for myself.
So those two things have really stayed with me.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I remember exactly when I said that to Liam in
the session. I was talking about how sometimes what we
think is an external conflict actually becomes an internalized conflict,
Meaning our culture tells us one thing, and we think
that we're fighting the culture, which we are, but then
we have bought into that so much that we're fighting
(33:33):
ourselves at the same time, and so now he was
dealing with not just this outside conflict, but the one
that he had brought into himself, into his own psyche,
and he had to really tackle both of those things
at the same time.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
That's absolutely true, and it's true for anyone who was
living their lives and their identities go against whatever culture
is that they were raised in, because we tend to
internalize the cultures we were raised in, messaging we've got
for many, many formative years. When we go against it,
it actually takes a while to confront those differences, both
(34:08):
externally and especially internally.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
When we talk about external we also are talking about
our families. So sometimes we'll get messages from our families
about who we are that we internalize, You're the sensitive
one in the family, you're the difficult one in the family,
whatever that identity is. And then we start to think, oh,
maybe I'm too sensitive, maybe I'm too difficult, And so
(34:32):
we're fighting not just this perception that somebody else has
about us, but we're fighting the perception that now we
start to believe about ourselves as well.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
And it's an interesting exercise to sometimes take notes for
yourself about what was your role in your family, how
were you known quote in your family, how are you
known in school? What was your role or your identity?
And how much of that are you holding onto? How
much of that do you still want to hold on to,
and how much of that is still even correct?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
And I think sometimes that does make us more empathetic,
because when we have experienced something, we feel for other people,
but we forget to feel enough for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Empathy can indeed be a double edged sword, and especially
for people who have it very automatically. For some people,
empathy is a thought exercise. They have to pause and
put themselves in the other person's shoes and figure it out.
For others, it comes very automatically. And when it comes
very automatically that I get what the other person is
thinking or feeling, then sometimes your own needs and thoughts
(35:35):
and feelings can come second. And we both see that
in our offices when we talk to someone who's very
very empathetic and we're talking about a relationship and we
ask them what they feel, and they keep going to
what the other person feels, and we have to keep saying, no,
I'm asking you what you feel, and you keep talking
about the other person. It's an example of people who
are very high in empathy, and Liam was at risk
(35:56):
for that, so I'm glad that he is aware of it,
because you literally have to consciously remind yourself not to
not think of the other people because that comes automatically,
but to push up your own priority in that order
of things.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
And I think there's one last piece Lee and wanted
to share with us.
Speaker 12 (36:14):
Most importantly would have gained about myself is that there's
a lot more love and support in my family than
I had initially thought. Sad to say, but I would
have never described my family as very close knit or
very emotional before that. But listening to that conversation again,
(36:35):
it is so apparent how much love and support I
get from them. The love between my sister and I
specifically is just so apparent and limitless. Getting to listen
to it almost from an outsider perspective, made me realize
that it was in front of my face the whole time.
(36:56):
This is probably an issue that is faced every day
by somebody somewhere. It's really hard to be true to yourself.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
I hope that other people dealing with this.
Speaker 12 (37:12):
Do get the support and the love that I receive
from my family, and even if they don't, I hope
they have the strength in them to be true to themselves.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
There's any trance people listening to this.
Speaker 12 (37:25):
I just wanted to say that you are valid and
you are loved, and that does not depend on whether
your family or friends accept you or not, and most importantly,
you are not alone. Thank you so much, Guy and Laurie.
It has been such an honor and getting such helpful feedback.
(37:49):
You have absolutely changed my life for the better. I
can't even put into words what this has meant to me,
so thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
I really appreciate you guys.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
There really is a lot of love in that family,
and sometimes it's hard to see it. I remember with
Liam's mom. At first, she was very supportive when he
told her that he was going to be transitioning, and
then the next time they spoke, she had kind of
changed a little bit in terms of how accepting she
was of that and how on board she was. And
(38:24):
I think that sometimes that can be confused with a
lack of love. But we have to remember that when
somebody in a family system changes, no matter what kind
of change it is, it takes a beat for other
people in the family to process that change, and when
the love is there in that way, people generally do
come around. There are so many times that we hear
about unfortunately where people don't come around, where people don't
(38:47):
embrace the person for who they really are. But in
this case, just from everything Liam was saying, it felt
like there was so much love in that family, not
just between the sisters but amongst all of them in
different ways. Is that it's so beautiful to hear how
it's all coming together now a year later.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It is really lovely to hear, you know. The thing
I'm thinking, Laurie, is that when somebody has a change
in identity, then they've been thinking about it for a
long time before they really come out and talk to
their family about it. And by the time they do,
they're often so impatient to get going and to move
on with this next phase of their life that they
(39:27):
want their family to come around immediately, and they forget
sometimes that you've been thinking about this for many years.
For some members of your family, it's very new and
it will take them time. Not that they won't get there,
but they still have to go through a little bit
of an adjustment, a little bit of a transition, and
I think the benefit of hearing from Liam now is
that enough time has passed and it's just lovely to
(39:49):
hear that. That's something that's so much coming to the
surface now.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
And what's so important here is that no matter what
I think, what Liam is saying to people is you
need to be true to yourself. People will have reactions,
people will do what they're going to do, But at
the end of the day, how do you free yourself?
You need to be true to yourself. You're listening to
(40:14):
Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back after
a short break. So guy, the last person we're going
to hear from today also is struggling to free herself
(40:37):
and also has an issue with her sister.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah, that was Hailey. Hailey lived by her parents and
was the only one taking care of them. She had
two sisters who lived further away, so it all kind
of fell on her and had for years. And Hailey
was really resentful because her parents kind of took her
for granted. She didn't feel seen or heard, and then
one of the sisters would fly in once a year
and the parents treated it like a visit. For Mary
(41:02):
Poppins and Hailey had a lot of feelings about it.
Let's get a reminder of that session.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
I think that there's still a yearning for you to
have them appreciate who you are as a person. And
so when your sister comes in and you said, like
Mary Poppins, and what they see is not just everything
she's doing that week, but I think that you have
a sense they see something else in her that they
(41:29):
haven't really looked hard enough to.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
See in you.
Speaker 8 (41:32):
Sometimes I think I should ask them more questions, because
that's what Jill does when she's there. She writes questions
for the night and has people discuss memories and labels
the antiques and oh.
Speaker 9 (41:45):
My goodness, she is Mary Puppins.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (41:47):
I can't compete with that. I don't know how to
do that. I remember.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
One of the things we talked about with Hailey was
the fact that sometimes when people don't appreciate you, you
don't realize that you have that right in front of you,
and sometimes you take that for granted. And so one
of the things we asked about was where she was
getting that in her life. And she started talking about
her husband that he was very supportive of her and
she also wanted to feel closer with him, and I
(42:17):
remember we gave her that exercise to really share with
each other what they appreciated about one another. And after
the first week she was so excited about that. She
said it had gone very well. It made her feel
so good, and it made him feel so good. And
let's hear now where Haley is with everyone in her family.
Speaker 8 (42:40):
Hi, Laurie and Guy, it's Haley.
Speaker 11 (42:42):
Your invitation to reconnect could not have come at a
better time.
Speaker 8 (42:49):
Mostly it's with my husband.
Speaker 11 (42:51):
I have not followed through on your advice of appreciating
him having him tell me what he appreciates about me.
Speaker 8 (42:58):
And I realized the assignment. It was only for.
Speaker 11 (43:01):
A week, and hey, that was a great week. I
think I have said to him several times, you know,
we need to work on this. I want to feel
closer to you. Let's at least start doing this thing
that Guy and Laurie suggested I do and tell each
other what we appreciate about each other, because I really
do need to hear that from him, and I would
(43:22):
really like to feel comfortable with feeling intimate with my husband,
which is it's work. I'll admit that's work. Because I
was not trained in this way, you know, Laurie.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
It's so common and we see this all the time
with couples we work with that couples will try something
that works for them and they'll say, wow, that really worked,
But then they'll fall out of the hat really quickly
and go back to something that didn't work and created
more distance. And people might think, but if Haley felt
that that was really useful, why didn't you just keep
doing it? And there are many reasons people fall back
(43:57):
into the world have its First, as Haley mentioned, you're
doing something that doesn't come naturally, so it requires some
kind of emotional effort and the cooperation of the other
person in this case, so it's not that easy. And
the other part is that once we get our partner
to do something that is better for us, we often
have this fantasy that, well, they see it's better for us,
they should keep doing it naturally because they know it
(44:19):
makes me happy. But it's just as hard for Hade's
husband to keep it up as it is for Hayley,
because again, it's not something that comes naturally, either to
them individually or to them in their couple dynamic.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Right now, right I don't see this as discouraging it
all for those reasons, because I think it's hard to
go out of our comfort zones, and here you have
two people who are trying to do that. And I
remember when she reported back after the first week, they
both really enjoyed the appreciation exercise. They both seem to
have gotten a lot out of it, and her husband
(44:51):
sounded so willing. You know, it wasn't like she had
to force him to do it or try to convince
him to do it. And so I'm glad that she
is continuing to voice this to him because he does
seem willing, and she realizes that she needs to take
an active role in this request.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
And one way to take an active role is to
schedule the exercise and do it at specific times, like
I don't know, every Friday and Monday, say to end
and start the week, because then it becomes more automatic
and something they can both look forward to.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
One of the nice things about this appreciation exercise is
that we're not saying, go have a heavy talk about
everything that's not working in your relationship, which you know
some couples are needing to deal with. They actually have
a really nice relationship. What they want is they want
more closeness. And I think that that appreciation piece and
not feeling alone is really important to Haley. So this
isn't a talk that people dread. This is a we're
(45:40):
going to schedule twice a week at the beginning and
end of the week where we have a time where
someone's going to tell me some really nice things about me.
That's something that people look forward to.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Absolutely, let's hear some more from Haley.
Speaker 8 (45:55):
So on to my parents.
Speaker 11 (45:56):
One of the things I found most valuable in re
listening to the podcast was that metaphor that I made
up about this currency that I have and maybe my
dad doesn't appreciate this currency, like I'm a Euro and
he's a rupee and he doesn't value my currency, And
that was just such a great reminder about my own worth.
Speaker 8 (46:22):
So in that way it was very helpful.
Speaker 11 (46:26):
And just hearing your kind voices again and all of
your praise about that I'm a great listener and then
I write good metaphors, that was just very nice to hear.
On a final note, the whole thing makes me realize
how often I kind of walk around with my hand
out like, oh please like me, oh please like me, Oh,
(46:47):
please like me? Overdoing things for people, over you know,
like I said.
Speaker 8 (46:53):
With my parents, entertaining.
Speaker 11 (46:54):
Like I'm a fool with a juggling ball and plates
everywhere I go to get people to like me.
Speaker 8 (47:02):
And I really shouldn't have to try that hard.
Speaker 11 (47:04):
I should really value my own currency and see my own.
Speaker 8 (47:10):
Worth, which I think speaks to the whole issue, like
how do you.
Speaker 11 (47:16):
Survive growing up in a house where people didn't value
your currency and then become an adult and learn how
to value your currency, which is why it hurts so
bad when you know, Mary Poppins comes in and everybody
loves Mary Poppins.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
So I think what we see with Haley here is
how strong the pull of our own history can be,
where our old habits and our old dynamics come back in,
and how often what we do is we take a
few steps forward and then we slip back. And I
think that the lesson here is that when you are
making a change, you should know that you will slip
back sometimes, that it's not a linear progression, and that
(47:55):
you have to have a lot of compassion for yourself
and say, okay, so I slip back, and now now
I'm going to get back on track. And I think
that it's not a sign that a lot of people
take of well, I slip back, so I can't do this.
You absolutely can do this, and this is just part
of the process.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
And you know what I say to people all the time,
and they don't believe me until they're right, and then
they go, oh yeah, right. Is that the same ease
and the same quickness with which you can slip off track,
with which you can go back to the old habits.
It's true that you can then slip back on the
right path that quickly as well, because we know for
Haley that one week of doing the appreciation exercise with
(48:35):
her husband and changing the dynamics with her parents made
a real difference. It took her a week to make
that change. It will take less than a week to
change back into that way of thinking and doing. And
so the message to all our listeners is, if you
started a new habit, a new dynamic with your partner
or with your family, and you slip out of it,
it's just as easy to slip back in. So let's
(48:57):
hear the end of Haley's update.
Speaker 11 (49:00):
I am probably going to listen to this podcast now
every other month just the advice part to make sure
that I stay on track, to make sure that I
remember this feeling of self worth I guess is what
that currency thing gets down, and to staying there, and
(49:21):
also to working on the relationship with my husband and
feeling more comfortable being intimate.
Speaker 8 (49:28):
And I want to thank.
Speaker 11 (49:29):
You both again for your time and your insight and
choosing my letter out of all the ones I'm sure
you get, because if I let it, it really could.
Speaker 8 (49:40):
Change my life.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
So this is exactly what we were saying that as therapists,
we assume that repetition will be required, and that when
you don't have a therapist to keep you on track
and remind you that you're going off track, you have
to find other reminders. And for Haley, listening to the
podcast a month is a great way for her to
do that.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
And for our listeners who are dealing with creating change
in their own lives, schedule a monthly check in your
calendar in which you ask yourself, have I been keeping
up with my new habit or my new intention or
my new form of communicating the new dynamic whatever it
is you're trying to change. Have you been keeping up
with it? Have you been keeping up with all the
necessary support systems you have in place to facilitate that
(50:25):
check in with yourself, because you've had decades of establishing
sometimes poor habits, and to free yourselves from those, you
really need to check in regularly, at least at the beginning,
to make sure you're developing the new habits that are
best for your emotional health.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
We've heard a lot about freedom in today's updates, and
it's so great to hear how people are doing a
year later. We become very attached to the people that
we talk to in their sessions, and we think about
them and we wonder how they're doing. And I know
that our listeners do too, and I hope that our
listeners are gaining something from hearing these updates, just like
(51:02):
they do when they hear our initial sessions.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
And that's why I'm so grateful to Haley, also, because
she reminded us all of something very important. That change
requires maintenance, and that's something we should all keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
I love hearing these updates a year later, So we
will be bringing more updates later in the season. But
next week we will be back to our regular sessions
and we'll be hearing from a woman who comes to
us to talk about her ex husband, who she believes
is a narcissist.
Speaker 13 (51:37):
And he said, so, I have four major stressors in
my life. My marriage, my health, my work, and that
I'm a father. He said, one of those things is
on the chopping block, and that's the marriage.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
apple podcas. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Each week we invite you into a session so you
can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
in their lives.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So sit back and welcome to today's session.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
This week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
find out how our advice worked out.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
A year later, Guy had said that he didn't think
I understood how bad it had been, and then Laurie
actually later on said that oftentimes people are hesitant to
confront those painful experiences because of what it might say
about them.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
And I'll be honest, that was a really hard one.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
But getting unstuck is also what's open myself up a
lot more to finally feeling happy and hopeful.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
First, a quick note, theo therapist is for informational purposes only,
does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and it's not
a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always
seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or
other qualified health provider with any questions you may have
regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
(01:26):
you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
or in full, and we may edit it for length
and clarity. And the sessions you'll hear all names have
been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Hi, Guy, Hey Laurie.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
So guy.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
I'm really excited because today we're doing another special episode
where we are hearing updates from our season one sessions
and the theme of today is freeing yourself.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
That is an important theme and the first person we're
going to hear from is Elena. Elena, to remind our listeners,
came to us to get help because she had the
chronically cheating husband who she had been with for seventy years.
And by chronically cheating, I literally mean could enter the
Cheating Olympics with how much cheating was going on.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yes, I remember that they would go to a therapy
session and he would say, Okay, I'm not going to
cheat and then within twenty four hours he would be
cheating again.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Right, So let's get a reminder of what was going
on for Elena in last year's session.
Speaker 6 (02:24):
So it has come out that the relations have been
with men. However, my husband is very closed off. He
kind of just wants it to go away. He doesn't
want to discuss it in detail. He acknowledges that it happened,
yet he doesn't want to talk about it. He just
kind of wants to forget about it. Then there's that
(02:45):
wall built, that avoidancy of him not talking about it,
shutting down, refusing to discuss it, and eventually he'll leave
the home or the other side where he's angry and
super distant. The other side of it is when we're
in therapy, it's like a twitch, like he'll talk about
(03:06):
it and he'll say he feels attacked, or he feels
like he's disgusting, or he feels that I find him disgusting,
kind of working through how he feels.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, it was not a good situation. So I am
very curious to hear where Elena is today.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Yeah, let's take a listen.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
My name is Elena, and I called and spoke with
Lauri and Guy in regards to my husband who was
having affairs, and I was also stationed overseas, so I
was isolated away from any family and friends and really
any support system to confide in and deal with, you know,
(03:56):
all that which was going on. So since I've spoken
with them, it's been a little over a year. My
husband and I are no longer together. We've separated officially
just a few months after I spoke with Gloria Guy,
and then the divorce was finalized in October of twenty twenty.
(04:17):
So is pretty quick.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Wow, that is very quick. That's less than a year.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, And on the one hand, I'm a little bit
surprised that it was that quick because she was so
reluctant to make a move when we talked. And I
think it's interesting because you and I felt like he's
not changing. She's been through so much with him, and
he is not interested in changing. So sometimes people say,
(04:44):
why won't this person change even though they say they
want to change. I think he knew he didn't want
to change, but he wasn't willing to say that to
her because of the consequence, which is that she would
probably leave. And sometimes therapists, you know, we don't tell
people what to stay in marriages or leave, but when
they're so problematic and there is so much suffering, we
(05:05):
hope that someone will come to that conclusion to save themselves.
And when Elena came to us, she seemed clear that
she was done, but she also wasn't ready to move
forward because I think she had so much grieving to
be done.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Yeah, we often don't say to someone, hey, you should
really leave this marriage, but we will leave a trail
of bread crumbs leading them to that conclusion if it's warranted.
In this case, it wasn't even bread crumbs. Loaves of
bread led a trail to like, hey, Elena, get out.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
And I want to be clear that we aren't there
to decide for people what they should do. So when
we say we leave the bread crumbs, it's not as
though we think we know best for them, because there
are people who they would rather be in a situation
that maybe you or I guy would say, oh that's
not for me, but it is for them, and even
though it's not ideal, it's problematic, they would rather be
(05:59):
in that for whatever reason. So we want them to
ask the important questions of themselves so they can come
to their own conclusion about what they want to do,
and that's what I think the breadcrumbs are.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
The thing is about Elena is that she actually knew
that this was really bad for her, that he wasn't changing,
that this wasn't working. The thing she really struggled to
do was to cut the cord and make the decision,
and given how quickly the divorce was finalized after speaking
with her, just months after we spoke with her, I
am so curious to hear what happened.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, I am too.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
So what happened is so we were living in Italy
overseas and March then my husband got called back to
the States. Well, I and his children from a previous
marriage were left in Italy. When he went back to
(06:57):
the States and the country we went into complete shutdown.
We were unable to leave the country and get back home,
and that just increased the stress in our relationship at
the time, but also just me being the only adult
in the household with three kids depending on me. I'm
(07:19):
not the biological mother, but you know, the step parent. There.
Further complicated things were my husband wasn't really communicating during
this time. He wasn't calling us on the phone, he
wouldn't answer I don't know messages. Really really kind of
(07:41):
left alone, you know, with the stresses of going to
school online and three different kids in three different grades
and three different schools. You know, I was really overwhelmed.
That was something that my husband couldn't be empathetic about,
and so that really hurt the marriage further.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
So Wow, and there are a couple of Wow moments
for me, I guess the biggest one is that we
didn't know there were kids in the picture. Now, in
regular psychotherapy, we get to ask a lot of background
questions and we will find out very soon if there
were children or any other people that are relevant in
the picture. But in the sessions we do for the podcast,
(08:26):
we only have a very short amount of time, and
there was nothing in what she was telling us to
indicate that there were children there, and certainly that there
were his children from a previous marriage, and even more
so that she was a big part of taking care
of them. That is a big surprise for me.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Yeah, that is such a surprise that we had that
entire session with her and not want did it come
up that he had kids from another marriage. And it's
not uncommon for people to leave things out in sessions,
even when we are seeing them for psychotherapy. And I
think that the reason that people leave things out is
(09:08):
because if they bring something up, it forces them to
face a truth that they might not be ready to.
And so for Elena, if she had added this information that, oh,
by the way, not only is he chronically cheating on
me and lying to me and gaslighting me and calling
me crazy, but also I'm taking care of his three kids,
(09:29):
And if she had added that, it would be even
more clear how untenable the situation was at a point
when she wasn't quite ready to face it entirely.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And the fact that while he was in America and
Elena was taking care of his three kids, he wasn't
reaching out even to be in touch with his kids,
so he was abandoning the kids as well, just shows
such a complete disregard for his family relationships and how
much he was incredibly focused on himself and on what
(10:02):
he wanted and needed in that time and truly shut
everyone else out, including apparently Elena, not just Elena.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And even then, even with the anxiety that she must
have been experiencing to be with his kids and to
be so far away, and to not know what was
going on with him and to not be in any
contact with him. That just incredibly anxiety provoking, and still
she was not ready to leave. So let's hear what
(10:32):
happened next.
Speaker 5 (10:33):
And then, you know, I found out that while he's
in America and I'm in Italy with his kids, he's
having affairs still, and he was open to me about
that that he was seeing someone and not just one time,
but multiple times. So when it was time that we
could finally leave the country to come back to America,
(10:56):
I asked him not to pick me up at the airport.
Needed some time to myself to kind of really decide
if I wanted to move forward. So I think I
landed on a Tuesday, and then on that Thursday is
when he told me he no longer wanted to work
(11:17):
on the relationship. And that's something that I struggle with
because I know that our marriage ended because he chose
to walk away, and I don't know if that's something
that I could have done eventually or maybe in six months,
(11:42):
maybe in a year, maybe in three years. It's something
that I kind of struggle with, knowing what is in
my past or what is going on internally that made
me stay in that relationship for as long as I did,
with as much toxicity and it that there was. You know,
(12:02):
it was definitely something that needed to happen, and I
think the timing was well when it happened. It was
just I wasn't there yet. I wasn't ready to walk
away yet, and it was it was very difficult for me,
So I can't take the credit of walking away from
that relationship. But now I am understanding that it needed
(12:25):
to happen and it was for the best.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So here again, even with him not being a real
partner and communicating during COVID while she's alone with his
three kids and telling her he was sleeping with other people,
Elena still wasn't ready to leave him, and it's going
to be very important for her to understand why that is.
I'm glad that she's asking herself that question. I remember
(12:50):
in our session she mentioned that her mother had been
cheated on as well, and so I'm guessing that there's
some intergenerational pattern or tree trauma that's being played out
here that she's going to have to understand better.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I think part of why Elena really couldn't leave and
I certainly understand why it's upsetting for her that, given everything,
he was the one to break up with her. But
when you live with somebody who's gaslighting you so profoundly
and for such a long time, doing outrageous, outrageous things,
and telling you that your reactions are outrageous or out
(13:24):
of control or you're the crazy one, it makes you
lose touch with your internal compass. You no longer know
what's up and what's down, on what's right and what's wrong.
And even if you think you're justified, you're just not
sure because all you hear is that's an overreaction, you're
out of control, you're crazy. And I think over the
years what happened to Elena is she just lost all perspective. Now,
(13:48):
we gave her an assignment to help get some of
that back, but I think that loss for her was profound.
She simply couldn't trust herself, and she didn't trust herself
to make that decision, especially when she was still isolated
in a foreign country. I think she lost all ability
to be in touch with what reality is and what's reasonable.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, the isolation was a big part of it, and
that's why we had her tell her friends what was
going on, so she could get a reality check on that.
And we also had her write down every incident that
happened so that she could see it on the page,
which also helps with reality checking. But then you still
have him coming in saying, Oh, you're getting upset about
this thing. You're overreacting what's happening. You're crazy, And you
(14:33):
know that goes on for years and years, and it
becomes very hard to locate your internal compass.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
And I guess in that way, his leaving was a
gift for help because she wasn't able to and maybe
she would have become more able to once she got back,
but him leaving and doing it so abruptly and so
much in line with his other inconsiderate, really selfish actions,
I think was nonetheless a gift. Because she wasn't able
to push the check button, he pushed it for her.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Yeah, and I think she needs to reframe it that way.
I think a lot of people feel like, I've been
through all of this with you, and you're the one
who's dumping me, which is I think what she kind
of grapples with a little bit here, and what I
want to say to Elena is this absolutely was a
gift to her. I hope that she will consider it
that and especially moving forward when she experiences and tastes
(15:25):
her freedom, I think she's going to see it more
and more as a gift.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
So let's here's the more. There's more from Elena Lettier.
What happens next?
Speaker 5 (15:34):
So yeah, so he still oversees and I am a
stateside in a city with friends and family. When I
got back to the States, my family and friends threw
me a big welcome home party. I just broke down
in tears with the amount of love that was shut
on me. They're at that party. Since all of this,
(15:54):
I've met someone super wonderful and great. They've been really
patient with mine a healing process of everything.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
I love hearing this because once you leave a situation
like that, you often find the people who are there
for you and who want to meet your needs. So
that great reception and homecoming from family and friends and
now a new boyfriend who's there for her and having
that understanding with her healing process, I'm just so delighted
(16:23):
to hear this.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
And I think it's not a coincidence that once she
was able to receive in person and true love and
care from the people around her. Then it opened her
up and allowed her to receive it from a romantic
partner as well.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
That's right. There's a two way dynamic going on, which
is not only when you're in that situation can you
not see things clearly, but you're not open to the
kind of person who's going to give you what you
want and what you need. And once she was out
of that situation, that opened her up to the possibility
of something new, and Elena had a little bit more
(17:02):
to say. Let's hear what that is.
Speaker 5 (17:04):
Some of the things that I took away were at
one point they said that I was having these big
emotional reactions to traumatic events, and that validated my feelings
of like, yeah, these are big traumatic events, and you know,
having an emotional reaction is okay. Because at that point,
(17:28):
I'd been called crazy. I'd been called out of control
so often that I felt that, well, maybe I am irrational,
maybe I am crazy. But when they kind of said that,
that really helped validate my feelings.
Speaker 7 (17:41):
You know.
Speaker 5 (17:41):
Also, with my husband calling me out of control all
the time, you're out of control, you know, guy said, well,
aren't his actions out of control? And so that really
validated for me those feelings.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yes, this is exactly what we were talking about. I'm
so glad she can see that.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Absolutely. That's really good to hear that she's clear about
those things. So there's just one last piece I think
that we haven't heard yet. Let's hear the end and
have things are really in now.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
The other thing that I've done, I guess, is create
boundaries in my life and other relationships. So with family
members that I needed to have boundaries, and then also
with friendships even I've had to put some boundaries. And
(18:32):
then even as far as getting back into dating after
the divorce, I would see those all too familiar red
flags and know like, okay, I've been here, done that. No,
thank you, this is a boundary for me, and this
isn't acceptable.
Speaker 8 (18:52):
So that's really you know.
Speaker 5 (18:54):
I can't thank Glory and Guy enough for what they've
done in my life and hopefully my story has had
some impact on someone else's life. And I just really
appreciate this avenue here for people to listen or to
hear from you guys in something that they might really
(19:15):
be struggling with. So thank you so much, Lori and Guy.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Right so here again once you become aware of what
you need, you feel empowered to ask for that in
relationships going forward, and you won't settle for less. And
she found someone who seems to meet those desires that
she has about how she wants to be treated, about honesty,
about presence, about connection. And the reason that we do
(19:39):
this podcast is that we feel that each person's story
in session does impact someone else's life. And there are
many Elena's out there who have been lied to, are gaslighted,
and we really hope that this session is helpful to them.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
So thank you Elena for coming on and sharing your
story with us and with our listeners. And you know
that exercise we gave you to think about a good
life you might have in five years time. We actually
think it might be quite good.
Speaker 9 (20:08):
Now.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Absolutely, you're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio.
Speaker 9 (20:15):
We'll be back after a quick break.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
I'm Lori Gottlieb and.
Speaker 9 (20:25):
I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
So let's hear our next update. Our next fellow traveler
from season one also had to free herself, but this
time it was from the pressure that she was putting
on herself. And I love this one because Libby was
only sixteen, but she knew something had to change.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
And I love it because that same insight took me
probably a couple of decades longer than Libby to figure
out me too. So just as a reminder, Libby was
a junior in high school and she was putting a
lot of pressure on herself to do super well, so
much so that she really didn't have much of life
and she was feeling very stressed out. And we helped
(21:08):
Leby see that real success means having ambition but also
having a life.
Speaker 10 (21:15):
My course load is pretty heavy. I'm on the leadership
I think five different clubs at my school, and two
of them are extremely prominent, so I usually have about
like three meetings a week with that, and I also
volunteer at the food bank eight hours every Saturday. I
really do try to like put a lot of effort
(21:36):
into my school work. I do feel like the way
that like the college system and everything is kind of
set up is that you kind of have to go
through this in your teenage years, like there's not really
much time for taking it easier, just like taking a
step back, and especially because I know so many other
kids are competing It's just I do think I'd saying
(22:00):
that makes me happy. I just I don't know if
I'm able to do that to reach my goals.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
She had put a lot of our advice into practice
that very first week and seemed to be doing better.
I'm curious to hear how she's doing now about a
year later.
Speaker 8 (22:17):
Hi, guys, it's Libby here.
Speaker 10 (22:19):
I just finished up junior year, and I can definitely
see improvement in myself, not just in grades in my resume,
but ultimately in my sense of self. School did get
a lot more stressful, and I did of those weeks.
Speaker 8 (22:29):
Of crunch time.
Speaker 10 (22:30):
But the biggest change I made was just letting my
brain chill out by scheduling and time to relax.
Speaker 8 (22:35):
None mind.
Speaker 10 (22:36):
I taught myself that this rest was a given, not
something I should feel guilty about. I tried to listen
to my body in my brain, and I recognized and
I was just tired and needed that rest. I began
treating myself like a friend who I wanted to help succeed.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Wow. That was great to hear. There's so many key
elements that are important in what Libby said. First of all,
she switched from self criticism when she felt the urge
to take a break to self compassion, which was a
very important move because then she's able to actually take
a break and not feel bad about it. She's also
paying attention to her body and how she's feeling, and
she's using that to signal her when she might need
(23:13):
to take a break, which is also another great move.
And the last thing, which I think is crucial for
so many people, is she's scheduling downtime. And for people
who have a lot on their plate, who tend to
be busy and overstressed, if you don't schedule downtime, if
you don't schedule me time or we time, it often
just doesn't happen.
Speaker 8 (23:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
And she also reframed downtime as essential as opposed to
wasting time. So I think before she felt like, oh
if I do something that is relaxing, that I'm not
being productive, And you think that that reframe helped to
minimize her guilt around taking the downtime and also being
able to benefit from it. And this is something that
highly driven people tend to struggle with.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Absolutely they do, and I'm one of them, and we
all need those reminders we do.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
We do sometimes here's a confession. Sometimes I actually listened
to this episode because I need the reminders myself in
my own life.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
Right we called her Libby two. Libby Too was the
version that actually was more integrated and recognized the importance
of having a personal life. And sometimes I'll say to myself,
don't be Guy one, be Guy too. Right now, you
know and.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Schedules same.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Yeah, let's see what else we can done from Libby.
Speaker 10 (24:27):
My life was a lot of school and extracurriculars, yes,
but I can also pinpoint a lot of fun in
the last six months, dinner with an old friend or
a day out getting ice cream and driving with my
little brother. I feel more outgoing, more capable, and more
nuanced as an individual after making my life less black
and white of things I had to do and making
it more contechnicolor of things I wanted to do. Instead
(24:48):
of viewing this practice as self indulgent, I thought of
Luring Guy's advice that this balance was the most important thing.
Thank you so much, Louriing Guy. I'm going to try
and continue this path. I lot my best be shine through.
Speaker 11 (25:02):
Well.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
The best Libby is definitely shining through. And I love
that she mentioned the word fun, because I think so
many of us, as we get older, forget to have fun,
We forget that fun is an essential part of our lives.
We think I don't have time for that, and we
think it's optional. But it's not optional. And so I
think when we suggest a different perspective and a way
(25:24):
to reframe something, we can tell when somebody really gets it.
And it was clear in this episode that Libby really
got it. She said, you know, it clicked, And once
it does, then someone can make a whole bunch of
meaningful changes in lots of areas of their lives. And
you can see that Libby did that. And I want
our listeners to think this week about fun and when
(25:46):
they have fun, and if they're not having fun, what
can they do to have fun? And how can they
do it in the way that we suggested to Libby.
So it's not that you're dropping all of your responsibilities.
It's that one of your responsibilities is to have fun.
And I hope they'll re listen to the episode.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
That's so important because while they're people who throughout their
lives can have fun, naturally, most of us do get busy,
do have responsibilities, and there has to be a certain
intentionality about clearing the space and having the mindset for
just letting loose and having fun. And I am so
glad that Livy has that in mind. And I urge
(26:21):
all our listeners who have high pressure or high stressed
situations or lots of responsibilities to really make time and
have the intention to truly have fun.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
And while we're talking about fun, our next update of
a fellow traveler from season one is from Liam, and
we really wanted Liam to have fun at his sister's wedding,
but he also was really struggling with this concept of freedom.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Liam was transitioning from female to male, but he was
very early on in his transition, and it brought up
the question of what does he wear to his sister's
wedding because it had gotten postponed because of COVID and
was supposed to happen before the transition began, but now
that it had, and now that it was still very early,
what does he wear that would make him comfortable that
(27:18):
his sister would be comfortable with. And that was the
conflict that he came.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
To us with, right, so let's hear what was happening
with him last year.
Speaker 7 (27:26):
As much as my family is very accepting. I think
that this issue really it shows that they aren't as
accepting as they think they are. Like my mother will
go march for gay rights and all of these things,
but you know, as soon as her son comes out
to her that he is part of the transgender community,
that's where issues start arising. And then it's like, Okay,
(27:48):
well maybe you're not as accepting as you think that
you are. And I think that that is showing a
little bit. With my sister, she has traditional values. It's
harder for me to fit those traditional values and still
be true to myself.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
So let me ask you this, what would it look
like to be true to yourself at Sarah's wedding?
Speaker 7 (28:09):
What would make me feel comfortable? Would be wearing men's
formal wear. The day of her wedding, I will be
taking my seventh testosterone shot, So my mind is somewhere,
and then my outer appearance is I feel is being
stuffed back into a closet.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
A lot of people said to us after they heard
this episode that even though a lot of the situations
in our podcast might not apply to them, that what
they heard in the podcast applied so much to their
own lives. So let's hear what happened with Liam, because
I think that it's going to be really relevant to
people who are both in Liam's situation and people who
(28:53):
maybe need to free themselves, both externally and internally in
various ways.
Speaker 4 (28:59):
Hy Laurie Guy.
Speaker 12 (29:01):
When I first came on the show, I think I
was about one month on testosterone. Now I'm about eight
months on testosterone. I'm constantly feeling better and better about
myself every day, emotionally and physically, so that's been really nice.
I do have more trans friends as well. It's really
(29:22):
nice having friends within my community that can really understand
the problems that I face. Just really nice to be
able to talk to somebody. And I also am pretty
much out at work. Everybody pretty much uses my real name,
which is really nice.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
So I did follow the advice.
Speaker 12 (29:43):
The first bit I've actually failed to mention when I
did my initial callback, which was to sit down with
Sarah and just say, hey, I am really excited for you.
Sorry if that got lost in translation. The outfit is
not the focus. The focus is celebrating you and your
husband on your day. We did have that talk, and
(30:03):
I think it was a big sigh of relief for her.
I think it was really great that you guys pointed
out that she probably needed to hear that, because I
think she really did.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
So I'm smiling because what Liam was referring to is
that his homework was to talk to his sister about
what he would wear, but to tell her that he
was actually really excited about the wedding and excited for
her and all that stuff. And in the voicemail he
left us with the update that was included in that episode,
he forgot to mention that he did have that part
(30:37):
of the conversation, and he felt so bad about it.
He reached out to me on social media and said,
you know, I did tell her I was excited. I
did tell her that was the most important thing, and
I didn't mention that, And people are going to think
I'm terrible, and I'm like, no, no, no, I think
people know you really care about your sister. But I'm
so glad we gave him this opportunity now to correct
the record and let people know that he was very
focused on the sister and her happiness and her husband,
(31:00):
and in that conversation we absolutely emphasize those things.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah, and one thing I loved about that episode was
it was so clear how much Liam and his sister
cared about each other and loved each other and were
trying to be so respectful of one another, and they
both wanted the other person to be comfortable, and they
were sort of in a gridlock because of that, So
it was it was great that they were able to
(31:25):
have that conversation. And also going back to what Liam
said about finding a support network of other trans people,
which was another assignment that we had given him. We
had suggested virtual groups at the time, but he actually
went and found people in his community, which is of
course much better. Having that support as well as the
support in his family probably helped him to come out
(31:46):
at work as well, and so now that he's out everywhere,
that's such an important step in this process for him.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
And also the reminder that the two things that are
really important and way more than too frankly, but two
things that are important is the corrects and the correct name.
And the fact that he said people are using his
name at work his correct name at work was also
great to hear because that's a very meaningful thing. So
let's hear some more about what's happening with Liam.
Speaker 12 (32:13):
You guys touched upon two things that have since stayed
with me. The first, I think Laurie was the one
that said, how I externalize an internal conflict, and I
think I have done that so much in the past.
I'm so grateful that she mentioned that because I've been
way more vigilant about it. It's just something that I
(32:37):
can see a past pattern that I've had, so I've
definitely been working on that and figuring that out. And
the second bit that sometimes I'm so empathetic that I
don't prioritize myself enough. That is also something I've seen
a pattern in my past about tremendously. I'm not going
to lose that empathy that I have for others, but
(33:00):
I'm also not going to allow it to be prioritized
in front of things I need to do for myself.
So those two things have really stayed with me.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I remember exactly when I said that to Liam in
the session. I was talking about how sometimes what we
think is an external conflict actually becomes an internalized conflict,
Meaning our culture tells us one thing, and we think
that we're fighting the culture, which we are, but then
we have bought into that so much that we're fighting
(33:33):
ourselves at the same time, and so now he was
dealing with not just this outside conflict, but the one
that he had brought into himself, into his own psyche,
and he had to really tackle both of those things
at the same time.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
That's absolutely true, and it's true for anyone who was
living their lives and their identities go against whatever culture
is that they were raised in, because we tend to
internalize the cultures we were raised in, messaging we've got
for many, many formative years. When we go against it,
it actually takes a while to confront those differences, both
(34:08):
externally and especially internally.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
When we talk about external we also are talking about
our families. So sometimes we'll get messages from our families
about who we are that we internalize, You're the sensitive
one in the family, you're the difficult one in the family,
whatever that identity is. And then we start to think, oh,
maybe I'm too sensitive, maybe I'm too difficult, And so
(34:32):
we're fighting not just this perception that somebody else has
about us, but we're fighting the perception that now we
start to believe about ourselves as well.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
And it's an interesting exercise to sometimes take notes for
yourself about what was your role in your family, how
were you known quote in your family, how are you
known in school? What was your role or your identity?
And how much of that are you holding onto? How
much of that do you still want to hold on to,
and how much of that is still even correct?
Speaker 1 (35:02):
And I think sometimes that does make us more empathetic,
because when we have experienced something, we feel for other people,
but we forget to feel enough for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Empathy can indeed be a double edged sword, and especially
for people who have it very automatically. For some people,
empathy is a thought exercise. They have to pause and
put themselves in the other person's shoes and figure it out.
For others, it comes very automatically. And when it comes
very automatically that I get what the other person is
thinking or feeling, then sometimes your own needs and thoughts
(35:35):
and feelings can come second. And we both see that
in our offices when we talk to someone who's very
very empathetic and we're talking about a relationship and we
ask them what they feel, and they keep going to
what the other person feels, and we have to keep saying, no,
I'm asking you what you feel, and you keep talking
about the other person. It's an example of people who
are very high in empathy, and Liam was at risk
(35:56):
for that, so I'm glad that he is aware of it,
because you literally have to consciously remind yourself not to
not think of the other people because that comes automatically,
but to push up your own priority in that order
of things.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
And I think there's one last piece Lee and wanted
to share with us.
Speaker 12 (36:14):
Most importantly would have gained about myself is that there's
a lot more love and support in my family than
I had initially thought. Sad to say, but I would
have never described my family as very close knit or
very emotional before that. But listening to that conversation again,
(36:35):
it is so apparent how much love and support I
get from them. The love between my sister and I
specifically is just so apparent and limitless. Getting to listen
to it almost from an outsider perspective, made me realize
that it was in front of my face the whole time.
(36:56):
This is probably an issue that is faced every day
by somebody somewhere. It's really hard to be true to yourself.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
I hope that other people dealing with this.
Speaker 12 (37:12):
Do get the support and the love that I receive
from my family, and even if they don't, I hope
they have the strength in them to be true to themselves.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
There's any trance people listening to this.
Speaker 12 (37:25):
I just wanted to say that you are valid and
you are loved, and that does not depend on whether
your family or friends accept you or not, and most importantly,
you are not alone. Thank you so much, Guy and Laurie.
It has been such an honor and getting such helpful feedback.
(37:49):
You have absolutely changed my life for the better. I
can't even put into words what this has meant to me,
so thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
I really appreciate you guys.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
There really is a lot of love in that family,
and sometimes it's hard to see it. I remember with
Liam's mom. At first, she was very supportive when he
told her that he was going to be transitioning, and
then the next time they spoke, she had kind of
changed a little bit in terms of how accepting she
was of that and how on board she was. And
(38:24):
I think that sometimes that can be confused with a
lack of love. But we have to remember that when
somebody in a family system changes, no matter what kind
of change it is, it takes a beat for other
people in the family to process that change, and when
the love is there in that way, people generally do
come around. There are so many times that we hear
about unfortunately where people don't come around, where people don't
(38:47):
embrace the person for who they really are. But in
this case, just from everything Liam was saying, it felt
like there was so much love in that family, not
just between the sisters but amongst all of them in
different ways. Is that it's so beautiful to hear how
it's all coming together now a year later.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It is really lovely to hear, you know. The thing
I'm thinking, Laurie, is that when somebody has a change
in identity, then they've been thinking about it for a
long time before they really come out and talk to
their family about it. And by the time they do,
they're often so impatient to get going and to move
on with this next phase of their life that they
(39:27):
want their family to come around immediately, and they forget
sometimes that you've been thinking about this for many years.
For some members of your family, it's very new and
it will take them time. Not that they won't get there,
but they still have to go through a little bit
of an adjustment, a little bit of a transition, and
I think the benefit of hearing from Liam now is
that enough time has passed and it's just lovely to
(39:49):
hear that. That's something that's so much coming to the
surface now.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
And what's so important here is that no matter what
I think, what Liam is saying to people is you
need to be true to yourself. People will have reactions,
people will do what they're going to do, But at
the end of the day, how do you free yourself?
You need to be true to yourself. You're listening to
(40:14):
Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be back after
a short break. So guy, the last person we're going
to hear from today also is struggling to free herself
(40:37):
and also has an issue with her sister.
Speaker 2 (40:40):
Yeah, that was Hailey. Hailey lived by her parents and
was the only one taking care of them. She had
two sisters who lived further away, so it all kind
of fell on her and had for years. And Hailey
was really resentful because her parents kind of took her
for granted. She didn't feel seen or heard, and then
one of the sisters would fly in once a year
and the parents treated it like a visit. For Mary
(41:02):
Poppins and Hailey had a lot of feelings about it.
Let's get a reminder of that session.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
I think that there's still a yearning for you to
have them appreciate who you are as a person. And
so when your sister comes in and you said, like
Mary Poppins, and what they see is not just everything
she's doing that week, but I think that you have
a sense they see something else in her that they
(41:29):
haven't really looked hard enough to.
Speaker 4 (41:31):
See in you.
Speaker 8 (41:32):
Sometimes I think I should ask them more questions, because
that's what Jill does when she's there. She writes questions
for the night and has people discuss memories and labels
the antiques and oh.
Speaker 9 (41:45):
My goodness, she is Mary Puppins.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (41:47):
I can't compete with that. I don't know how to
do that. I remember.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
One of the things we talked about with Hailey was
the fact that sometimes when people don't appreciate you, you
don't realize that you have that right in front of you,
and sometimes you take that for granted. And so one
of the things we asked about was where she was
getting that in her life. And she started talking about
her husband that he was very supportive of her and
she also wanted to feel closer with him, and I
(42:17):
remember we gave her that exercise to really share with
each other what they appreciated about one another. And after
the first week she was so excited about that. She
said it had gone very well. It made her feel
so good, and it made him feel so good. And
let's hear now where Haley is with everyone in her family.
Speaker 8 (42:40):
Hi, Laurie and Guy, it's Haley.
Speaker 11 (42:42):
Your invitation to reconnect could not have come at a
better time.
Speaker 8 (42:49):
Mostly it's with my husband.
Speaker 11 (42:51):
I have not followed through on your advice of appreciating
him having him tell me what he appreciates about me.
Speaker 8 (42:58):
And I realized the assignment. It was only for.
Speaker 11 (43:01):
A week, and hey, that was a great week. I
think I have said to him several times, you know,
we need to work on this. I want to feel
closer to you. Let's at least start doing this thing
that Guy and Laurie suggested I do and tell each
other what we appreciate about each other, because I really
do need to hear that from him, and I would
(43:22):
really like to feel comfortable with feeling intimate with my husband,
which is it's work. I'll admit that's work. Because I
was not trained in this way, you know, Laurie.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
It's so common and we see this all the time
with couples we work with that couples will try something
that works for them and they'll say, wow, that really worked,
But then they'll fall out of the hat really quickly
and go back to something that didn't work and created
more distance. And people might think, but if Haley felt
that that was really useful, why didn't you just keep
doing it? And there are many reasons people fall back
(43:57):
into the world have its First, as Haley mentioned, you're
doing something that doesn't come naturally, so it requires some
kind of emotional effort and the cooperation of the other
person in this case, so it's not that easy. And
the other part is that once we get our partner
to do something that is better for us, we often
have this fantasy that, well, they see it's better for us,
they should keep doing it naturally because they know it
(44:19):
makes me happy. But it's just as hard for Hade's
husband to keep it up as it is for Hayley,
because again, it's not something that comes naturally, either to
them individually or to them in their couple dynamic.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Right now, right I don't see this as discouraging it
all for those reasons, because I think it's hard to
go out of our comfort zones, and here you have
two people who are trying to do that. And I
remember when she reported back after the first week, they
both really enjoyed the appreciation exercise. They both seem to
have gotten a lot out of it, and her husband
(44:51):
sounded so willing. You know, it wasn't like she had
to force him to do it or try to convince
him to do it. And so I'm glad that she
is continuing to voice this to him because he does
seem willing, and she realizes that she needs to take
an active role in this request.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
And one way to take an active role is to
schedule the exercise and do it at specific times, like
I don't know, every Friday and Monday, say to end
and start the week, because then it becomes more automatic
and something they can both look forward to.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
One of the nice things about this appreciation exercise is
that we're not saying, go have a heavy talk about
everything that's not working in your relationship, which you know
some couples are needing to deal with. They actually have
a really nice relationship. What they want is they want
more closeness. And I think that that appreciation piece and
not feeling alone is really important to Haley. So this
isn't a talk that people dread. This is a we're
(45:40):
going to schedule twice a week at the beginning and
end of the week where we have a time where
someone's going to tell me some really nice things about me.
That's something that people look forward to.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Absolutely, let's hear some more from Haley.
Speaker 8 (45:55):
So on to my parents.
Speaker 11 (45:56):
One of the things I found most valuable in re
listening to the podcast was that metaphor that I made
up about this currency that I have and maybe my
dad doesn't appreciate this currency, like I'm a Euro and
he's a rupee and he doesn't value my currency, And
that was just such a great reminder about my own worth.
Speaker 8 (46:22):
So in that way it was very helpful.
Speaker 11 (46:26):
And just hearing your kind voices again and all of
your praise about that I'm a great listener and then
I write good metaphors, that was just very nice to hear.
On a final note, the whole thing makes me realize
how often I kind of walk around with my hand
out like, oh please like me, oh please like me, Oh,
(46:47):
please like me? Overdoing things for people, over you know,
like I said.
Speaker 8 (46:53):
With my parents, entertaining.
Speaker 11 (46:54):
Like I'm a fool with a juggling ball and plates
everywhere I go to get people to like me.
Speaker 8 (47:02):
And I really shouldn't have to try that hard.
Speaker 11 (47:04):
I should really value my own currency and see my own.
Speaker 8 (47:10):
Worth, which I think speaks to the whole issue, like
how do you.
Speaker 11 (47:16):
Survive growing up in a house where people didn't value
your currency and then become an adult and learn how
to value your currency, which is why it hurts so
bad when you know, Mary Poppins comes in and everybody
loves Mary Poppins.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
So I think what we see with Haley here is
how strong the pull of our own history can be,
where our old habits and our old dynamics come back in,
and how often what we do is we take a
few steps forward and then we slip back. And I
think that the lesson here is that when you are
making a change, you should know that you will slip
back sometimes, that it's not a linear progression, and that
(47:55):
you have to have a lot of compassion for yourself
and say, okay, so I slip back, and now now
I'm going to get back on track. And I think
that it's not a sign that a lot of people
take of well, I slip back, so I can't do this.
You absolutely can do this, and this is just part
of the process.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
And you know what I say to people all the time,
and they don't believe me until they're right, and then
they go, oh yeah, right. Is that the same ease
and the same quickness with which you can slip off track,
with which you can go back to the old habits.
It's true that you can then slip back on the
right path that quickly as well, because we know for
Haley that one week of doing the appreciation exercise with
(48:35):
her husband and changing the dynamics with her parents made
a real difference. It took her a week to make
that change. It will take less than a week to
change back into that way of thinking and doing. And
so the message to all our listeners is, if you
started a new habit, a new dynamic with your partner
or with your family, and you slip out of it,
it's just as easy to slip back in. So let's
(48:57):
hear the end of Haley's update.
Speaker 11 (49:00):
I am probably going to listen to this podcast now
every other month just the advice part to make sure
that I stay on track, to make sure that I
remember this feeling of self worth I guess is what
that currency thing gets down, and to staying there, and
(49:21):
also to working on the relationship with my husband and
feeling more comfortable being intimate.
Speaker 8 (49:28):
And I want to thank.
Speaker 11 (49:29):
You both again for your time and your insight and
choosing my letter out of all the ones I'm sure
you get, because if I let it, it really could.
Speaker 8 (49:40):
Change my life.
Speaker 1 (49:42):
So this is exactly what we were saying that as therapists,
we assume that repetition will be required, and that when
you don't have a therapist to keep you on track
and remind you that you're going off track, you have
to find other reminders. And for Haley, listening to the
podcast a month is a great way for her to
do that.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
And for our listeners who are dealing with creating change
in their own lives, schedule a monthly check in your
calendar in which you ask yourself, have I been keeping
up with my new habit or my new intention or
my new form of communicating the new dynamic whatever it
is you're trying to change. Have you been keeping up
with it? Have you been keeping up with all the
necessary support systems you have in place to facilitate that
(50:25):
check in with yourself, because you've had decades of establishing
sometimes poor habits, and to free yourselves from those, you
really need to check in regularly, at least at the beginning,
to make sure you're developing the new habits that are
best for your emotional health.
Speaker 1 (50:42):
We've heard a lot about freedom in today's updates, and
it's so great to hear how people are doing a
year later. We become very attached to the people that
we talk to in their sessions, and we think about
them and we wonder how they're doing. And I know
that our listeners do too, and I hope that our
listeners are gaining something from hearing these updates, just like
(51:02):
they do when they hear our initial sessions.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
And that's why I'm so grateful to Haley, also, because
she reminded us all of something very important. That change
requires maintenance, and that's something we should all keep in mind.
Speaker 1 (51:21):
I love hearing these updates a year later, So we
will be bringing more updates later in the season. But
next week we will be back to our regular sessions
and we'll be hearing from a woman who comes to
us to talk about her ex husband, who she believes
is a narcissist.
Speaker 13 (51:37):
And he said, so, I have four major stressors in
my life. My marriage, my health, my work, and that
I'm a father. He said, one of those things is
on the chopping block, and that's the marriage.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by
telling your friends about it and leaving a review on
apple podcas. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1 (52:29):
Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio
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