May 10, 2023 • 37 mins
We revisit the murders of Hanna Witheridge and David Miller on Koh Tao. With new information coming to light regarding key evidence, we dig deeper into the case.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
On September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, twenty three year old Hannah
Witherich and twenty four year old David Miller, who'd only
just met by chance on Catau, were talking at the
ac Bar. The pair, both from the UK, left the
bar together around one am. It was the last time
either of them was seen alive. Early the next morning,
(00:25):
on September fifteenth, a beach cleaner found their partially clad bodies.
David was floating in the water, Hannah was found on
the sand, the waves lapping over her. Detectives discovered a
garden hoe covered in blood near their bodies, and autopsy
(00:45):
revealed that David had scratches on his back and water
in his lungs, indicating he'd drowned. Hannah's body was covered
in wounds, bruising, and scratches. Their deaths sparked international outrage
and question about a lack of justice on Katau. Welcome
to Death Island, a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio,
(01:10):
Episode eight, The Case of Hannah Withtheridge and David Miller.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm Connor Powell, an investigative journalist at kat Studios. With
Stephanie Leidecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnow and Jeff Shane. So
it's been a few episodes since we touched on the
murders of Hannah and David on Kotel, but I think
we need to revisit their deaths because as we've been
working on this and producing this series, some new information
(01:39):
has come in about their deaths, and it has to
do with the DNA evidence that led to the conviction
of Wapo and zeal Lyn.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Two Bummy smigrant workers were arrested in Charshton Friday with
a killing of two British tourists on the Pie island
of Kota. The arrest come amid mounting pressure on police
to solve the murders. Pol have come under international and
domestic scrutiny for their halpisode handling off the kids.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Both Waypo and Zouln could face death sentences if convicted.
Veteran international journalist Sarah Yun, who lived on Thailand for
eight years, reported on the arrest and subsequent trial of
the Burmese immigrants.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
The biggest thing we found strange was the size of
these two Burmese men, who were smaller than the normal
Western female maybe five foot three five foot four and
very small, and given how tall the male victim, David Miller,
it was kind of impossible to believe that these two
men would have overpowered him supposedly during an amorous moment
(02:41):
on the beach and killed him, though the doubt was
being ceded into our mind straight away in the fact
they said they didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
According to Tay Police, Waypo and Zoln initially confessed to
the murders, but some say the interrogation had issues. The
first potentially problematic part had to do with the interpreters
that Thai police allegedly hired.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
The interpreters for the police, who they said they were
using to talk to Wifo and Zorlin did not speak
any Tie. Their comprehension of Tie was almost incomprehensible, and
they could hardly speak any Burmese. They were pancake vendors
that the police said they'd used to be present during
the interrogation of both men.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
What language did they speak?
Speaker 4 (03:29):
They speak a dialect, a Burmese dialect which is not
normal common Burmese and which was not what either Wifo
was or Lin spoke interesting, and both Wifo and Orlin
said that the interpreters didn't understand them, and they were
asked to sign all sorts of papers to admit their guilt,
and they didn't know what they were signing, and nor
did their translator. And that the under Thai police law,
(03:50):
a translator in a police station must have a state
recognized certificate, and neither of these two did.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Arthur and journalist Sue Buchanan lived on Thailand for years
and wrote the book The Curse of the Turtle, the
true story of Thailand's backpacker murders. She shares her thoughts
on the interpreters.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
They had two interpreters, one of whom is Rahingi, and
he was a pancake vender. And he doesn't even speak Thai.
I mean when he was giving evidence of their interrogation
at the trial, he himself had to have an interpreter,
so his language skills were useless. I mean, what was
he doing there? This guy's Thai skills were so rubbish
(04:28):
that when he was in court he had to have
his own interpreter.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Eighteen days after initially confessing to the crime, Zoulin and
Wapo withdrew their confessions.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
According to Zorlin's letter, which is here in front of me,
they were just beaten up and attacked and hurt and told,
you know, you have to confess to this. If you
confess to this, you're only do two or three years
in prison. But they had no legal representation. During that interrogation,
the defendants said they were tortured.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
They said they had that genitalia was flicked very hard.
They were told that if they didn't agree, they were
going to be put in some rubber tires and the
rubber tires would be set on fire. They were told
they'd be putt in a black bag and towed along
underwater until they were dead. They were flicked on the
ends of their feet. There was a whole list of
things that they said had happened to them. The cellmates
testified to their injuries all over their chest. The police
(05:15):
officer in court, who was asked about this, confirmed that
a doctor had been called for wife foe after his
initial interrogation, that no doctor had ever come forward. The
Human Rights Thailand had summoned the Royal type Police five
times to talk about the potential torture of these two men.
No police officer ever came. According to them. Wifo said
(05:36):
that they told him that no one would care if
he died because he was just another Burmese worker, and
that if he was burned alive, no one would care
and no one would probably know.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
For a couple of years, Tomstone was able to covertly
film interviews with Waypo and Zalin in prison. He did
this for his documentary Murder in Paradise. Here he is
speaking with Connor.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
You also interviewed Allen and Wepo in the prison. Talk
about the experience of getting in the prison, but I
also talk about interviewing them and how they responded to
your questions.
Speaker 7 (06:09):
So the interview in the prison was too a huge
amount of planning. I've run lots of undercover investigations. I've
got undercover myself, I've sent lots of other people undercover,
and they require really close cooperation from the team on
the ground and a lot of planning in advance. And
you have to go through quite a complicated process in
the UK with your lawyers getting what we call public
(06:32):
interest evidence in advance to justify invading people's to secrecy
and secretly filming them. So long before I have ever
set foot in the prison, I'd already written there twenty
five page document laying out the case, laying out the
areas of concern and why it was justified to take
this risk go into the prison and try to secretly
(06:54):
film them, so that before I even set foot on coach.
How but on the day of going to the prison,
I was very nerve. I was very apprehensive. It was
high stakes on lots of levels. There was a risk
to me, but in truth, there was a far greater
risk to the translator who was helping me, because if
she had been caught, or I'd been caught with the cameras,
(07:14):
then she would have been almost certainly imprisoned along with me.
And while there would have been lots of people back home
making a great deal of noise about helping to get
me free, I imagine they'd be less for her. But
the people who risk was greatest for were YPO and Zorlin,
because if it was ever perceived that they were somehow
in alliance with us, then they might be an even
(07:35):
greater jeopardy than the potential death sentence that they were facing.
So when I get into the prison, it's very early
in the morning. I've got two secret cameras and they're
sweat rolling down the back of my neck. I find
that there's an incredibly long cue, and I actually miss
the first slot because there's so many people to visit
the prisoners that day. Now that's a big problem because
(07:57):
Secret Filming Kit has a limited battery life. On one
of my devices, it was only forty five minutes. And
so now I'll have to make this very careful decision
about do I risk going to the loo and trying
to change battery in my device? Will I be spotted
or shall I just risk it and see if it
lasts long. Now, so clock sticking down, I know I'm
going to get into the second session. Eventually, the first
(08:20):
set of visitors leave, and then the door goes back,
and I set off, and I go in with the translator,
and I go down this narrow corridor, and at each
window as I go down, I see people waiting for
their visitors, and eventually I see y Pure and Zorolin.
And so the first thing that strikes me, because I'm
(08:41):
walking down the corridor is that the two Burmese men
are tiny. You know, I'm only five for eight and
they were well under me. And this only might be
an initial impression, but it's very very jarring when you
know the violence of the prime which.
Speaker 8 (08:58):
They've been a cute used.
Speaker 7 (09:00):
And it is completely at odds with the idea that
they had used a garden hoe to violently kill two
people and rate one of them because they're so small.
And I tried, in the little bit of time that
I had, whilst using a telephone and a translator, to
get through a few crucial things from the case. But
(09:21):
there is nothing like as a journalist seeing these things
for yourself and seeing the whites of someone's eyes when
you put these questions to them. The other thing, in
the limited amount of time I had them, I was
able to get into and which they were willing to
give details on, is they talked about how they were
how they say they were tortured whilst in custody. They
talked about being burnt, they talked about being threatened, and
(09:43):
it sounded it sounded terrifying.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Tai Police Major General swat Jan Yatsuk refuted the accusations
that Wapo and Zelln were tortured. Here's a portion of
his audio taken from Tomstone's documentary.
Speaker 9 (10:00):
It's not cool. When they are in our custody. We
send them to the hospital to melory. Part of the
record about their physical death. No brus even their statemen
are even asking for any darker.
Speaker 7 (10:16):
So can you tell me one hundred percent that neither
Zulin or wi Fo were tortured.
Speaker 10 (10:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Sure, And they weren't the only ones of the Burmese
community to say that they had been abused while being
interrogated and asking questions.
Speaker 7 (10:35):
Correct, that's right. When the investigation kicked off, you know,
probably a day or so after had a weather Ridge
and David Miller's bodies have been found. The police went
to a well known area on the island. It's clearing
in the middle of some trees where the main part
of the Burmese community is located, and the police have
(10:58):
been accused of intimidating and attacking local Burmese people. One
person we were given provided photos of who had apparently
had boiling water poured on him, and lots of people
were bruised. I was given lots of photographs of bruised
various body parts. I mean it. Accounts that were given
were absolutely appalling, and the overwhelming message from the Burmese
(11:21):
community and their supporters was that they were being skateegated,
that they were a convenient target for this investigation.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
The hacker group, Anonymous obtained footage that appears to be
Thai military police interrogating a Burmese migrant.
Speaker 10 (11:38):
Anonymous has learned that the Tye police have accused innocent
people before and would rather blame foreigners or migrants for
such crimes so as to protect their tourism industry. That
here is a quick video of General prey youth Channecker's
military men under him, showing just how much the Taime
military views were Amese migrants.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
I'm watching the video now and I'll describe what I'm seeing.
The Burmese migrant is wearing a black and white striped
shirt and is sitting on a rock. A man in
a uniform is punching and kneeing him in the face.
The Burmese migrant worker is putting up only a little
bit of resistance, trying to defend his head from the blows.
There are soldiers standing around laughing, and then there's a
(12:21):
brief pause. They stop for a second, and another one
comes in and kicks the migrant worker in his head.
A third soldier comes in and starts slapping the Burmese
migrant worker in his face, and then all three of
them come in punching, kicking, and slapping him all at
the same time.
Speaker 10 (12:40):
No wonder the time military general blame this crime on migrants.
As mentioned before, it is part of Thai culture to
blame migrants, especially from Burma.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Journalist Sarah Yune also interviewed Waypo and Zalin
while they were in prison.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
I managed to see them and I asked them, then,
had they carried out this murder that I spoke specifically
to Zorlin, the larger of the two boys, and I
asked him if he'd done it. He said no. He
said they were on the beach that night. He admitted
that they'd been spending It was the payday. They've been
spending the money that they weren't going to send home.
They had a bottle of wine and then he claims
(13:34):
that they went for a swim and then they went
home and they didn't see anything on the beach. Think
so he did look very scared, very nervous. And one
thing he said as I was leaving, he said, I
really can't spend my life in prison. I didn't even
get to sleep with a girl. And I laughed at
him with him at the time and said, you know,
don't worry. I'm sure things will come to light and
(13:55):
you will leave. But then later I thought the strange
thing for a young man to say when he's been
accused of rape and also murder, that his biggest regret
was that he'd never even slept with a girl. They
were very scared, obviously, they wanted messages to get to
their parents, which I did, and then they asked me
to come back again because they felt like they were
(14:16):
just going to be forgotten now.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Sarah Yun continued to visit the man while they're waiting
for the child to begin.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
At one point their parents came over, which is an
incredibly sad moment, and I went and spoke to both parents,
who insisted that the boys had absolutely no prior criminal
convictions and they had never done anything like this. Beca
Zorlin's father was very ill and he didn't come, but
Why Foe's father came and he subsequently died while his
songs was still in prison, which is very very sad.
(14:45):
That they cried outside the court for almost an hour
at what was happening to their children and said that
this was not unusual for people from Burma to end
up in these situations, but they were horrified, obviously, But
then it was simply a case of waiting for the trial.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
On July eighth, twenty fifteen, the trial of Zoolin and
Wpo began. Journalists had difficulty gaining access to the proceedings
from the start.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Now, what the Ties tried to do to limit international
coverage of this trial was to put it over individual days.
So in one month there might be two days for
them to go to the court, and then the next
month maybe nothing, and then the month after just two
days together, and then the next month just three days.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
Is that common in Thai trials or is this unique
to this trial?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
I understood from the Thaie reporters who were there it
is not at all common, had never happened before. But
unfortunately for the Thai authorities, I lived ten minutes from
the court.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
I mean, it.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
Seems like the Thai authorities during the trial are trying
to make it as difficult as possible, and the only
reason to conclude is that they don't really want coverage.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Obviously, as journalist, we try to find some relyable indicator
as to whether the information being presented is true. Or false.
It was very apparent from the first day of the
court case that the police investigation was fulled.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
One of the pieces of evidence presented by the prosecution
involved David and Hannah's cell phones.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
One of the other things that we're trying to sort
of clarify is the issue of Hannah's mobile phone. The
police General Somyacht claimed that investigators found the phone in
Wapo or z Allen's room. But there's a claim that
that phone was turned in by Hannah's friend to the police.
Can you just explain what you understand about the phone.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Here again, su b Buchanan.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
So, first of all, the police said one of the
boys that had Hannah's phone they found it. Now, on
the night of the murders, Zorlin told me that he
and Wapiole were out with Muong Muang. They were all
on the beach Muang Muang or MGMG. He worked at
AC which is Mon's bungalows. He wanted to borrow Zorlan's
motorbike so he could go and visit with his girlfriend.
So way Pur and Zolian were left alone on the
(17:11):
beach when they decided they wanted to go home. He'd
not returned with the motorbike, so they're left with no motorbike.
That they're left with no transport. It was too far
for them to get back to their own area where
the Burmese live and Muang Muang he was living in
accommodation for staff provided by Montuat's bungalows, so they walked
to his bungalow and slept in his bungalow. The police
(17:34):
said they've found Hannah's phone behind that bungalow and someone
had thrown it, and we had like, well, hang on
a minute. We have got photographic evidence of Hannah's pink
phone with Hannah in choppers bar, and there's photographic evidence
of Hannah's travel companions handing that phone into the police,
and we have a picture of that phone on the
police desk, so we're like that this can't be true.
(17:57):
Then they changed their story and said it was David's
mobile that was found behind the bungalow of Mumuang and
not Hannah's phone, so that you know they even got
that wrong.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
But one of the two Zelen Or Wapo did admit
to finding David's phone.
Speaker 8 (18:10):
Is that correct?
Speaker 6 (18:11):
Yeah, So Waypure said that he found David's phone on
the beach. He picked it up, it was smashed, it
wasn't working.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
The Taye police said Zalin and Wapo had intended to
take David Miller's black iPhone four, but later found that
the device couldn't be used in Thailand. Police say they
smashed the phone and discarded it behind their living quarters,
but it's not clear whose living quarters the police are
talking about. In many of the statements, it sounds like
the police are referring to their friend Mau Mause living quarters,
(18:40):
who lived in a bungalow on Mantrawattavichian's property near Sari
Beach Waypo and Zalin they didn't live there. They lived
in a migrant camp far away from the beach area,
but they did spend the night of mal Maos. But
the bigger question is why would Zalin and Wapo smash
the phone and discard it when they could have sold
the phone for at least a month salary, And if
(19:01):
they were concerned about possible incrimination, would they keep it
or discard it anywhere near where they had been.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
I don't know whether he's going to try and get
it fixed or sell it or return it to its owner,
you know, but he's never denied having it. Now, if
i'd have murdered somebody, I would deny having their phone.
You know, they don't think they've ever found his fingerprints
on it or anything like that. You know, why would
you admit to having somebody's phone if you'd killed them?
Why would you take their phone if you'd killed them? Like,
if I'm going to kill you, I'm not going to start,
(19:32):
you know, unless I'm a serial killer and I'm looking for,
you know, trophies. I'm not going to start taking your
possessions and then just lobbing them behind my bungalow where
someone could find them. Hey, I wouldn't take them and
be I'm going to dispose of them in a way
no one's ever going to find them and link me
to that crime.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Also, with the phone, it's clearly identifiable to a person,
and it can be tracked through GPS, And I mean, like,
if you're murdering somebody, the phone is like the last
thing you want to be connected to because it can
pinpoint a whole lot of information that you know, would
get your cart essentially.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
Yeah, exactly. But they weren't even sure it was David's phone.
And eventually the National Crime Agency in the UK gave
him the information to say it was David's phone. They
did that and that's illegal because they're not allowed to
give evidence that can help someone get the death penalty.
So the British broke the law. You can just google that,
you know, it's quite clear. It's documented in the press.
But the British broke the law by the National Crime
(20:23):
Agency giving that information. But even if it is his phone,
you know, way Peole never denied having his phone. I mean,
waye Puer is not, you know, university educated, but he's
not stupid.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Waypo came across David Miller's iPhone on Sorry beach. According
to the prosecution, this put him in the vicinity of
where Hannah and David were murdered, but there were a
lot of people on the beach that night. The prosecution's
case also relied heavily on DNA evidence. Jonathan Samuels covered
the trial for Sky News.
Speaker 11 (20:55):
I very much look at the facts that have got
in front of me and I try and be as
impartial as I possibly can. And I did cover the
start of the trial and I heard the prosecution's case
and when you listen to the case against these two
young Burmese migrants. It is very strong. DNA was found
(21:16):
at the scene in Hannah from both men. Both men's
DNA was found on a cigarette but found at the scene.
David's phone was found at the home of one of
their friends. Both confessed there was a huge amount which
pointed the finger towards these two young men. What there
wasn't really was a motive. They had no previous convictions,
(21:41):
there were no witnesses. And the other thing that struck
me when I saw them gether is they both looked petrified.
They looked tiny, they looked so young, and David was
a big guy, you know, he was a big, well
built guy, and I did wonder how these two slight
Burmese young could have overpowered someone as big as David.
(22:03):
So all that sort of went through my mind as well.
But certainly the evidence that the prosecution put forward was
very strong, and the defense really struggled to come up
with anything to counter it.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
On the surface, the prosecution's DNA evidence looked strong, but
upon further examination there are some who believe a lot
of it may not hold up. Again. Journalist Sarah Yun.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
For instance, they pretty much hung this case on DNA.
But when they went to court, they announced in court
that there was no DNA on the alleged murder weapon,
which was a hoe. But they said that the reason
that they said there was no DNA on the murder
weapon was that they'd looked at it under a magnifying
(22:49):
glass and they couldn't find any DNA. Now, obviously you
don't have to know a lot about DNA to know
you're not going to see it under a magnifying glass.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Necessarily, the police claim that Zaln and Wapo were perfect
matches to the DNA found at the crime scene and
on Hannah's body.
Speaker 9 (23:07):
We found inside their body, we found had a secret
and so many that's enough for us.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
The biggest thing that at the time was they pulled
me aside for an interview the police, and they told
me that they had sent DNA samples to Singapore and
they had received twenty four hours before they'd sent them,
and they'd received back an affirmative that the DNA samples
completely matched these two men and for their.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Hold on in twenty four hours they got DNA samples.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Back, so exactly, the police spokesman told me, we sent
the samples yesterday, which was a Friday, to Singapore, and
we got the samples back this morning, which was a
Saturday morning, and they completely match the two boys who
are standing there today and that is why they've been
(24:03):
arrested and we know they did it. And I have
this interview on camera and when I said, I don't
think it's possible to get a match back in twenty
four hours. I think sometimes that takes anything up to
two weeks, and he said, no, they have special technology
in Singapore. That's why we sent it to Singapore and
we were therefore able to get it back in twenty
four hours. Now, by the time that went to court,
(24:25):
there was no mention of Singapore and they hadn't even
given it to the Thailand National Forensics Laboratory. So what
was said in that interview on that beach was one
hundred percent incorrect. According to the police chief who attended
the court case. One thing I did say to him was,
as I understood it, there is never a direct match
on DNA, and you can only get the ninety nine
(24:48):
point five percent match and that has to be deemed circumstantial.
And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was
a match it's a match. We know it's them.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Tier Police testified the samples were received on the morning
of September seventeenth, and started a DNA extraction at eight
am local time. This seems unlikely, as a pathologist only
started his autopsy at eleven am. The successful profiling of
the two men was announced around ten pm. It suggests
remarkably rapid analysis in less than twelve hours from samples
(25:20):
in which at least three people's DNA the victims and
two men were mixed. Connor as forensic expert Joseph Scott
Morgan for his take on the speed in which the
results were received.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
One of the other things that struck me and Andrew
and others that we've read and talked to people about
this is the quickness in which they turned the DNA
evidence around. And I'm sort of curious. There's references to
having this results back in less than twenty four to
thirty six hours. Is that possible if you think of
it as it has to leave the island, be sent
(25:52):
somewhere else, process and then results back. Is that Is
that just bullshit?
Speaker 8 (25:57):
Yeah? I think it is. I think it's complete bullshit.
We cannot judge this based upon twenty twenty two. Let's
just go back to twenty fourteen, but back then you'd
be looking generally at a six to eight week window.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
The DNA samples themselves could potentially have been compromised by
the way they were handled. But remember there were questions
over the collection of DNA at the crime scene. One
factor to consider there were people walking all over the
crime scene after Hannah and David's bodies were discovered.
Speaker 7 (26:28):
Six police officers that were on that island at the
time aren't really equipped for a complicated murder investigation. Now
that becomes significant because the forensic evidence in the case
of YPO and Zoylin will be absolutely crucial. Yeah, they
were say in court that it was one hundred percent
match from that crime scene for YPO and zao LN.
(26:50):
So the inability to look after that crime scene properly
will have an enormous bearing on the credibility of the investigation.
That we know that from what was heard in court
that there were several mixed DNA samples. Now that's really
important because that means that on one sample, when they're
trying to detect one person's DNA, it's very hard to
(27:13):
untangle back from another person.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
Another thing that was very interesting from day one was
there had been no chain of custody on the DNA samples.
So when you take DNA from someone, obviously it has
to be signed over to someone else, and signed over
to someone else, and signed over to someone else, so
by the time it reaches a testing lab, you know
exactly that that DNA sample has not been tampered with.
(27:35):
But in this case fully admitted in court with absolutely
no sense that this was something that was wrong. They
admitted there was no chain of custody on the DNA,
so it could have been anybody's DNA.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Angely I turned twenty fifteen, the defense lawyers requested to
retest the DNA samples received from Hannah weather Or's body
and from zell In and WPL.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
And when the defense asked to retest the samples that
they had to and the police chief stood up in
court and said, sorry, it's been used up. And when
asked by the judge what he meant by used up,
he answered and said it's used up. It's nothing left
to test and it's all gone now, nothing for you
to test.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Again. Subiuchanan.
Speaker 6 (28:16):
The Ties are known for getting rid of evidence that
could exonerate the people they have decided are guilty, like
in the case of way Puran is all In. You know,
they take the samples of DNA supposedly from Hannah. We
have no proof those DNA samples came from Hannah. They
tested them and then they probably lost them the amplified
part of them and lost the rest. And then when
(28:37):
the defense wanted to independently retest the DNA, they were told, well,
we've lost it or has been used up. There's none
left for independent testing. We've only got amplified samples. Well,
the amplified samples, we don't know which string of DNA
that came from. And while it very well could have
matched all In in wag Pure, it matched about nine
million other people. So you can't say with one amplified sample,
(28:57):
one amplified mixed sample without any supporting evidence documents, probability studies,
that that matched the boys. It may well have matched
the boys, but it probably matched me and you and
everybody listening to this podcast.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
And there are questions about some pieces of evidence that
either went missing or were never tested.
Speaker 12 (29:18):
The defense also argues that the police failed to test
a number of items from the crime scene including blood
on the rocks and sand, and Hannah's clothes.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Hannah's underwear was missing, even though that the police said
that they'd had it as evidence, when it got to
the court they didn't have it, and she was reported
to have a lock of hair in her fingers when
they found her body, which obviously could well have belonged
to whoever assaulted her. And when they got to court,
the police chief, who was Lieutenant Colonel Somsek, admitted that
(29:53):
there was a lock of hair taken from Hannah's hands,
that the sample had been lost. When the judge said
to him, what do you mean lost, she said, oh,
it's just gone. We don't know where it is.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
It's just lost. Let's stop here for another break. This
brings us to what police claim was the murder weapon,
(30:22):
a garden hole. The defense as the top expert from
the Central Institute of Forensic Science and Thailand, doctor Porntip,
to examine the murder weapon.
Speaker 12 (30:32):
Doctor Porte reveals to the court that she has retested
the garden hoe. She says she found DNA from David
Miller and another unknown male who is neither Zorlin nor Waypo.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Here's a portion of Tomstone's documentary Murder in Paradise. In it,
you'll hear doctor portneb saying, from the pieces of evidence
that are sent to me, there is only one that
is relevant. That is a hoe. By examining the DNA
found on the end of the whole, the DNA profiles
that are detected belong to two humans. Both are male.
(31:07):
We compared it with the defendant's DNA, but they did
not match. The result is that the DNA belonged to
two men, but not the two defendants.
Speaker 7 (31:16):
The defense forensic experts said that she'd found another sample
of somebody else who was not Ypoor was all in,
and I think that reflects just how difficult it was
that the crime team to properly wrote it off keep
other people off the grounds. And we don't know what
happened after David Na and Halloweerrich had died. We don't
(31:39):
know who else had passed through at that time. We
don't know what other contamination issues they might have had.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Here's what one time major general responded when asked about
the quality of their DNA analysis.
Speaker 9 (31:51):
I have no idea why people doesn't believe in that evidence.
We'd did it in the laboratory. We did it with
the specialist. The equipment that they use is come from
European standards, things like that comply with IS or something
(32:14):
I cannot remember, but.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Subi Canon says. The defense's forensic expert pushed back against
the way the prosecution was presenting the DNA evidence.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
She was sent the garden hoe and she tested it,
and she said that the two DNA samples she found
on the garden hoe didn't match waypure or sort in. Now,
you can argue that those DNA samples, it was all
in way pure could easily been washed off that garden hoe.
But if you're washing a garden hose so thoroughly that
those DNA samples have gone, how come you know David's
(32:49):
DNA was on there and another Asian male has not
been washed that thoroughly.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
You would think that if they were hanging their case
on it, they would have made sure that they had
a tight case with Internet organizations or east their own
national forensics laboratory would have agreed. And in this case
was interesting that the National Forensics Institute in Thailand testified
for the defense. So as soon as that happened, they
(33:13):
at least closed down the DNA argument.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Overall, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan has five words for
the forensic evidence gathered in the case against Sauln and WPO.
Speaker 8 (33:25):
It's an absolute train wreck, and it seems like it
keeps repeating itself over and over again.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Joseph Morgan brings up one more important detail that should
be considered.
Speaker 8 (33:36):
Remember, they've put forth this idea of sexual assault okay
on this poor young woman and a disfigurement of her face.
Whoever did this would have potentially been bathed in blood.
Let's just say that you have an individual who has
facilitated this, they're going to be potentially saturated in blood.
(33:58):
These are fine pits of evidence. If they're walking away,
you can actually have passive blood droplets that are being
cast off from the hands or just dripped passively as
they're walking away. Can you imagine the wealth of information
if you had taken the time surveyed the scene. You
had to remember, we saw those images of the blood
where the body was kind of resting in the sand.
(34:19):
What if you had a trail concurrently with footprints where
the individual is walking away and you've got droplets of
blood that are leading away, Well, that stuff is very minute.
If you have everybody and their brother walking through the scene,
the slightest scuff on the ground can compromise any of
that very delicate evidence that's left behind. So that's the
(34:40):
kind of thing that you're looking at. It's very delicate work.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
And I want to make sure I understand you correctly.
What you are saying is is if our convicted suspects
probably did wield this hoe, they would have been covered
in blood, both on their skin, their fingernails, their hair,
and more importantly probably their clothes.
Speaker 8 (35:00):
Oh absolutely, And again I go back to the intimacy
of this assault. Connor, We're talking about very horrendous sexual assault.
And admittedly, you know, one of the things that the
authorities have put forward this poor young lady was struck
in the head in order to initially kind of stun
her so that this horrendous event could be carried out.
(35:24):
We don't know the volume of blood that issued forth
from her body, but I know this, the head is
one of the most vascular areas of the body, both
internally and externally. Ask anybody that's ever split their scalp
open in any passive thing and get blood that's going everywhere.
It looks like a horrorship.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
In our research on this case, we couldn't find any
evidence that Wapo or Zelen had clothing covered in blood.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
The next day, Zelln and Wapo reported to work and
they didn't have any marks on them, right, well.
Speaker 6 (35:55):
If they did, nobody noticed them. I mean, bearing in mind,
you know, two massive brutal murders of just and Place.
I think if anyone turned up to work with scratch
wounds and bruises and looking like they've been involved in
a fight, then you know they're going to be suspects,
aren't they. And I spoke to both Wape your Anzelin's boss,
and they both confirm they turn up to work as
normal the next day with you know, nothing unusual whatsoever.
(36:16):
And you know, if you committed the crime of that magnitude,
would you really spend the next two and a half
weeks sitting on the island when there's eight or nine
boats leaving every day and you can go back to
your family in Burma.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
More on that this season. If you have any information
about Hannah Withatheridge and David Miller, please contact us at
producers at Katdashstudios dot com for more information and relevant photos.
Follow us on Instagram at Kat Underscores Studios. Death Island
(36:49):
is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Jeff Shane,
Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and
sound design Jeff Trois. Music by Vanicor Music. Death Island
is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(37:12):
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
On September fourteenth, twenty fourteen, twenty three year old Hannah
Witherich and twenty four year old David Miller, who'd only
just met by chance on Catau, were talking at the
ac Bar. The pair, both from the UK, left the
bar together around one am. It was the last time
either of them was seen alive. Early the next morning,
(00:25):
on September fifteenth, a beach cleaner found their partially clad bodies.
David was floating in the water, Hannah was found on
the sand, the waves lapping over her. Detectives discovered a
garden hoe covered in blood near their bodies, and autopsy
(00:45):
revealed that David had scratches on his back and water
in his lungs, indicating he'd drowned. Hannah's body was covered
in wounds, bruising, and scratches. Their deaths sparked international outrage
and question about a lack of justice on Katau. Welcome
to Death Island, a production of Kati's Studios and iHeartRadio,
(01:10):
Episode eight, The Case of Hannah Withtheridge and David Miller.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I'm Connor Powell, an investigative journalist at kat Studios. With
Stephanie Leidecker, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnow and Jeff Shane. So
it's been a few episodes since we touched on the
murders of Hannah and David on Kotel, but I think
we need to revisit their deaths because as we've been
working on this and producing this series, some new information
(01:39):
has come in about their deaths, and it has to
do with the DNA evidence that led to the conviction
of Wapo and zeal Lyn.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Two Bummy smigrant workers were arrested in Charshton Friday with
a killing of two British tourists on the Pie island
of Kota. The arrest come amid mounting pressure on police
to solve the murders. Pol have come under international and
domestic scrutiny for their halpisode handling off the kids.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Both Waypo and Zouln could face death sentences if convicted.
Veteran international journalist Sarah Yun, who lived on Thailand for
eight years, reported on the arrest and subsequent trial of
the Burmese immigrants.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
The biggest thing we found strange was the size of
these two Burmese men, who were smaller than the normal
Western female maybe five foot three five foot four and
very small, and given how tall the male victim, David Miller,
it was kind of impossible to believe that these two
men would have overpowered him supposedly during an amorous moment
(02:41):
on the beach and killed him, though the doubt was
being ceded into our mind straight away in the fact
they said they didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
According to Tay Police, Waypo and Zoln initially confessed to
the murders, but some say the interrogation had issues. The
first potentially problematic part had to do with the interpreters
that Thai police allegedly hired.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
The interpreters for the police, who they said they were
using to talk to Wifo and Zorlin did not speak
any Tie. Their comprehension of Tie was almost incomprehensible, and
they could hardly speak any Burmese. They were pancake vendors
that the police said they'd used to be present during
the interrogation of both men.
Speaker 5 (03:27):
What language did they speak?
Speaker 4 (03:29):
They speak a dialect, a Burmese dialect which is not
normal common Burmese and which was not what either Wifo
was or Lin spoke interesting, and both Wifo and Orlin
said that the interpreters didn't understand them, and they were
asked to sign all sorts of papers to admit their guilt,
and they didn't know what they were signing, and nor
did their translator. And that the under Thai police law,
(03:50):
a translator in a police station must have a state
recognized certificate, and neither of these two did.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Arthur and journalist Sue Buchanan lived on Thailand for years
and wrote the book The Curse of the Turtle, the
true story of Thailand's backpacker murders. She shares her thoughts
on the interpreters.
Speaker 6 (04:08):
They had two interpreters, one of whom is Rahingi, and
he was a pancake vender. And he doesn't even speak Thai.
I mean when he was giving evidence of their interrogation
at the trial, he himself had to have an interpreter,
so his language skills were useless. I mean, what was
he doing there? This guy's Thai skills were so rubbish
(04:28):
that when he was in court he had to have
his own interpreter.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Eighteen days after initially confessing to the crime, Zoulin and
Wapo withdrew their confessions.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
According to Zorlin's letter, which is here in front of me,
they were just beaten up and attacked and hurt and told,
you know, you have to confess to this. If you
confess to this, you're only do two or three years
in prison. But they had no legal representation. During that interrogation,
the defendants said they were tortured.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
They said they had that genitalia was flicked very hard.
They were told that if they didn't agree, they were
going to be put in some rubber tires and the
rubber tires would be set on fire. They were told
they'd be putt in a black bag and towed along
underwater until they were dead. They were flicked on the
ends of their feet. There was a whole list of
things that they said had happened to them. The cellmates
testified to their injuries all over their chest. The police
(05:15):
officer in court, who was asked about this, confirmed that
a doctor had been called for wife foe after his
initial interrogation, that no doctor had ever come forward. The
Human Rights Thailand had summoned the Royal type Police five
times to talk about the potential torture of these two men.
No police officer ever came. According to them. Wifo said
(05:36):
that they told him that no one would care if
he died because he was just another Burmese worker, and
that if he was burned alive, no one would care
and no one would probably know.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
For a couple of years, Tomstone was able to covertly
film interviews with Waypo and Zalin in prison. He did
this for his documentary Murder in Paradise. Here he is
speaking with Connor.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
You also interviewed Allen and Wepo in the prison. Talk
about the experience of getting in the prison, but I
also talk about interviewing them and how they responded to
your questions.
Speaker 7 (06:09):
So the interview in the prison was too a huge
amount of planning. I've run lots of undercover investigations. I've
got undercover myself, I've sent lots of other people undercover,
and they require really close cooperation from the team on
the ground and a lot of planning in advance. And
you have to go through quite a complicated process in
the UK with your lawyers getting what we call public
(06:32):
interest evidence in advance to justify invading people's to secrecy
and secretly filming them. So long before I have ever
set foot in the prison, I'd already written there twenty
five page document laying out the case, laying out the
areas of concern and why it was justified to take
this risk go into the prison and try to secretly
(06:54):
film them, so that before I even set foot on coach.
How but on the day of going to the prison,
I was very nerve. I was very apprehensive. It was
high stakes on lots of levels. There was a risk
to me, but in truth, there was a far greater
risk to the translator who was helping me, because if
she had been caught, or I'd been caught with the cameras,
(07:14):
then she would have been almost certainly imprisoned along with me.
And while there would have been lots of people back home
making a great deal of noise about helping to get
me free, I imagine they'd be less for her. But
the people who risk was greatest for were YPO and Zorlin,
because if it was ever perceived that they were somehow
in alliance with us, then they might be an even
(07:35):
greater jeopardy than the potential death sentence that they were facing.
So when I get into the prison, it's very early
in the morning. I've got two secret cameras and they're
sweat rolling down the back of my neck. I find
that there's an incredibly long cue, and I actually miss
the first slot because there's so many people to visit
the prisoners that day. Now that's a big problem because
(07:57):
Secret Filming Kit has a limited battery life. On one
of my devices, it was only forty five minutes. And
so now I'll have to make this very careful decision
about do I risk going to the loo and trying
to change battery in my device? Will I be spotted
or shall I just risk it and see if it
lasts long. Now, so clock sticking down, I know I'm
going to get into the second session. Eventually, the first
(08:20):
set of visitors leave, and then the door goes back,
and I set off, and I go in with the translator,
and I go down this narrow corridor, and at each
window as I go down, I see people waiting for
their visitors, and eventually I see y Pure and Zorolin.
And so the first thing that strikes me, because I'm
(08:41):
walking down the corridor is that the two Burmese men
are tiny. You know, I'm only five for eight and
they were well under me. And this only might be
an initial impression, but it's very very jarring when you
know the violence of the prime which.
Speaker 8 (08:58):
They've been a cute used.
Speaker 7 (09:00):
And it is completely at odds with the idea that
they had used a garden hoe to violently kill two
people and rate one of them because they're so small.
And I tried, in the little bit of time that
I had, whilst using a telephone and a translator, to
get through a few crucial things from the case. But
(09:21):
there is nothing like as a journalist seeing these things
for yourself and seeing the whites of someone's eyes when
you put these questions to them. The other thing, in
the limited amount of time I had them, I was
able to get into and which they were willing to
give details on, is they talked about how they were
how they say they were tortured whilst in custody. They
talked about being burnt, they talked about being threatened, and
(09:43):
it sounded it sounded terrifying.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Tai Police Major General swat Jan Yatsuk refuted the accusations
that Wapo and Zelln were tortured. Here's a portion of
his audio taken from Tomstone's documentary.
Speaker 9 (10:00):
It's not cool. When they are in our custody. We
send them to the hospital to melory. Part of the
record about their physical death. No brus even their statemen
are even asking for any darker.
Speaker 7 (10:16):
So can you tell me one hundred percent that neither
Zulin or wi Fo were tortured.
Speaker 10 (10:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Sure, And they weren't the only ones of the Burmese
community to say that they had been abused while being
interrogated and asking questions.
Speaker 7 (10:35):
Correct, that's right. When the investigation kicked off, you know,
probably a day or so after had a weather Ridge
and David Miller's bodies have been found. The police went
to a well known area on the island. It's clearing
in the middle of some trees where the main part
of the Burmese community is located, and the police have
(10:58):
been accused of intimidating and attacking local Burmese people. One
person we were given provided photos of who had apparently
had boiling water poured on him, and lots of people
were bruised. I was given lots of photographs of bruised
various body parts. I mean it. Accounts that were given
were absolutely appalling, and the overwhelming message from the Burmese
(11:21):
community and their supporters was that they were being skateegated,
that they were a convenient target for this investigation.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
The hacker group, Anonymous obtained footage that appears to be
Thai military police interrogating a Burmese migrant.
Speaker 10 (11:38):
Anonymous has learned that the Tye police have accused innocent
people before and would rather blame foreigners or migrants for
such crimes so as to protect their tourism industry. That
here is a quick video of General prey youth Channecker's
military men under him, showing just how much the Taime
military views were Amese migrants.
Speaker 5 (12:00):
I'm watching the video now and I'll describe what I'm seeing.
The Burmese migrant is wearing a black and white striped
shirt and is sitting on a rock. A man in
a uniform is punching and kneeing him in the face.
The Burmese migrant worker is putting up only a little
bit of resistance, trying to defend his head from the blows.
There are soldiers standing around laughing, and then there's a
(12:21):
brief pause. They stop for a second, and another one
comes in and kicks the migrant worker in his head.
A third soldier comes in and starts slapping the Burmese
migrant worker in his face, and then all three of
them come in punching, kicking, and slapping him all at
the same time.
Speaker 10 (12:40):
No wonder the time military general blame this crime on migrants.
As mentioned before, it is part of Thai culture to
blame migrants, especially from Burma.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Journalist Sarah Yune also interviewed Waypo and Zalin
while they were in prison.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
I managed to see them and I asked them, then,
had they carried out this murder that I spoke specifically
to Zorlin, the larger of the two boys, and I
asked him if he'd done it. He said no. He
said they were on the beach that night. He admitted
that they'd been spending It was the payday. They've been
spending the money that they weren't going to send home.
They had a bottle of wine and then he claims
(13:34):
that they went for a swim and then they went
home and they didn't see anything on the beach. Think
so he did look very scared, very nervous. And one
thing he said as I was leaving, he said, I
really can't spend my life in prison. I didn't even
get to sleep with a girl. And I laughed at
him with him at the time and said, you know,
don't worry. I'm sure things will come to light and
(13:55):
you will leave. But then later I thought the strange
thing for a young man to say when he's been
accused of rape and also murder, that his biggest regret
was that he'd never even slept with a girl. They
were very scared, obviously, they wanted messages to get to
their parents, which I did, and then they asked me
to come back again because they felt like they were
(14:16):
just going to be forgotten now.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Sarah Yun continued to visit the man while they're waiting
for the child to begin.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
At one point their parents came over, which is an
incredibly sad moment, and I went and spoke to both parents,
who insisted that the boys had absolutely no prior criminal
convictions and they had never done anything like this. Beca
Zorlin's father was very ill and he didn't come, but
Why Foe's father came and he subsequently died while his
songs was still in prison, which is very very sad.
(14:45):
That they cried outside the court for almost an hour
at what was happening to their children and said that
this was not unusual for people from Burma to end
up in these situations, but they were horrified, obviously, But
then it was simply a case of waiting for the trial.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
On July eighth, twenty fifteen, the trial of Zoolin and
Wpo began. Journalists had difficulty gaining access to the proceedings
from the start.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
Now, what the Ties tried to do to limit international
coverage of this trial was to put it over individual days.
So in one month there might be two days for
them to go to the court, and then the next
month maybe nothing, and then the month after just two
days together, and then the next month just three days.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
Is that common in Thai trials or is this unique
to this trial?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
I understood from the Thaie reporters who were there it
is not at all common, had never happened before. But
unfortunately for the Thai authorities, I lived ten minutes from
the court.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
I mean, it.
Speaker 5 (15:47):
Seems like the Thai authorities during the trial are trying
to make it as difficult as possible, and the only
reason to conclude is that they don't really want coverage.
Speaker 4 (15:57):
Obviously, as journalist, we try to find some relyable indicator
as to whether the information being presented is true. Or false.
It was very apparent from the first day of the
court case that the police investigation was fulled.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
One of the pieces of evidence presented by the prosecution
involved David and Hannah's cell phones.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
One of the other things that we're trying to sort
of clarify is the issue of Hannah's mobile phone. The
police General Somyacht claimed that investigators found the phone in
Wapo or z Allen's room. But there's a claim that
that phone was turned in by Hannah's friend to the police.
Can you just explain what you understand about the phone.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Here again, su b Buchanan.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
So, first of all, the police said one of the
boys that had Hannah's phone they found it. Now, on
the night of the murders, Zorlin told me that he
and Wapiole were out with Muong Muang. They were all
on the beach Muang Muang or MGMG. He worked at
AC which is Mon's bungalows. He wanted to borrow Zorlan's
motorbike so he could go and visit with his girlfriend.
So way Pur and Zolian were left alone on the
(17:11):
beach when they decided they wanted to go home. He'd
not returned with the motorbike, so they're left with no motorbike.
That they're left with no transport. It was too far
for them to get back to their own area where
the Burmese live and Muang Muang he was living in
accommodation for staff provided by Montuat's bungalows, so they walked
to his bungalow and slept in his bungalow. The police
(17:34):
said they've found Hannah's phone behind that bungalow and someone
had thrown it, and we had like, well, hang on
a minute. We have got photographic evidence of Hannah's pink
phone with Hannah in choppers bar, and there's photographic evidence
of Hannah's travel companions handing that phone into the police,
and we have a picture of that phone on the
police desk, so we're like that this can't be true.
(17:57):
Then they changed their story and said it was David's
mobile that was found behind the bungalow of Mumuang and
not Hannah's phone, so that you know they even got
that wrong.
Speaker 5 (18:05):
But one of the two Zelen Or Wapo did admit
to finding David's phone.
Speaker 8 (18:10):
Is that correct?
Speaker 6 (18:11):
Yeah, So Waypure said that he found David's phone on
the beach. He picked it up, it was smashed, it
wasn't working.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
The Taye police said Zalin and Wapo had intended to
take David Miller's black iPhone four, but later found that
the device couldn't be used in Thailand. Police say they
smashed the phone and discarded it behind their living quarters,
but it's not clear whose living quarters the police are
talking about. In many of the statements, it sounds like
the police are referring to their friend Mau Mause living quarters,
(18:40):
who lived in a bungalow on Mantrawattavichian's property near Sari
Beach Waypo and Zalin they didn't live there. They lived
in a migrant camp far away from the beach area,
but they did spend the night of mal Maos. But
the bigger question is why would Zalin and Wapo smash
the phone and discard it when they could have sold
the phone for at least a month salary, And if
(19:01):
they were concerned about possible incrimination, would they keep it
or discard it anywhere near where they had been.
Speaker 6 (19:11):
I don't know whether he's going to try and get
it fixed or sell it or return it to its owner,
you know, but he's never denied having it. Now, if
i'd have murdered somebody, I would deny having their phone.
You know, they don't think they've ever found his fingerprints
on it or anything like that. You know, why would
you admit to having somebody's phone if you'd killed them?
Why would you take their phone if you'd killed them? Like,
if I'm going to kill you, I'm not going to start,
(19:32):
you know, unless I'm a serial killer and I'm looking for,
you know, trophies. I'm not going to start taking your
possessions and then just lobbing them behind my bungalow where
someone could find them. Hey, I wouldn't take them and
be I'm going to dispose of them in a way
no one's ever going to find them and link me
to that crime.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Also, with the phone, it's clearly identifiable to a person,
and it can be tracked through GPS, And I mean, like,
if you're murdering somebody, the phone is like the last
thing you want to be connected to because it can
pinpoint a whole lot of information that you know, would
get your cart essentially.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
Yeah, exactly. But they weren't even sure it was David's phone.
And eventually the National Crime Agency in the UK gave
him the information to say it was David's phone. They
did that and that's illegal because they're not allowed to
give evidence that can help someone get the death penalty.
So the British broke the law. You can just google that,
you know, it's quite clear. It's documented in the press.
But the British broke the law by the National Crime
(20:23):
Agency giving that information. But even if it is his phone,
you know, way Peole never denied having his phone. I mean,
waye Puer is not, you know, university educated, but he's
not stupid.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Waypo came across David Miller's iPhone on Sorry beach. According
to the prosecution, this put him in the vicinity of
where Hannah and David were murdered, but there were a
lot of people on the beach that night. The prosecution's
case also relied heavily on DNA evidence. Jonathan Samuels covered
the trial for Sky News.
Speaker 11 (20:55):
I very much look at the facts that have got
in front of me and I try and be as
impartial as I possibly can. And I did cover the
start of the trial and I heard the prosecution's case
and when you listen to the case against these two
young Burmese migrants. It is very strong. DNA was found
(21:16):
at the scene in Hannah from both men. Both men's
DNA was found on a cigarette but found at the scene.
David's phone was found at the home of one of
their friends. Both confessed there was a huge amount which
pointed the finger towards these two young men. What there
wasn't really was a motive. They had no previous convictions,
(21:41):
there were no witnesses. And the other thing that struck
me when I saw them gether is they both looked petrified.
They looked tiny, they looked so young, and David was
a big guy, you know, he was a big, well
built guy, and I did wonder how these two slight
Burmese young could have overpowered someone as big as David.
(22:03):
So all that sort of went through my mind as well.
But certainly the evidence that the prosecution put forward was
very strong, and the defense really struggled to come up
with anything to counter it.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
On the surface, the prosecution's DNA evidence looked strong, but
upon further examination there are some who believe a lot
of it may not hold up. Again. Journalist Sarah Yun.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
For instance, they pretty much hung this case on DNA.
But when they went to court, they announced in court
that there was no DNA on the alleged murder weapon,
which was a hoe. But they said that the reason
that they said there was no DNA on the murder
weapon was that they'd looked at it under a magnifying
(22:49):
glass and they couldn't find any DNA. Now, obviously you
don't have to know a lot about DNA to know
you're not going to see it under a magnifying glass.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Necessarily, the police claim that Zaln and Wapo were perfect
matches to the DNA found at the crime scene and
on Hannah's body.
Speaker 9 (23:07):
We found inside their body, we found had a secret
and so many that's enough for us.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
The biggest thing that at the time was they pulled
me aside for an interview the police, and they told
me that they had sent DNA samples to Singapore and
they had received twenty four hours before they'd sent them,
and they'd received back an affirmative that the DNA samples
completely matched these two men and for their.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Hold on in twenty four hours they got DNA samples.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Back, so exactly, the police spokesman told me, we sent
the samples yesterday, which was a Friday, to Singapore, and
we got the samples back this morning, which was a
Saturday morning, and they completely match the two boys who
are standing there today and that is why they've been
(24:03):
arrested and we know they did it. And I have
this interview on camera and when I said, I don't
think it's possible to get a match back in twenty
four hours. I think sometimes that takes anything up to
two weeks, and he said, no, they have special technology
in Singapore. That's why we sent it to Singapore and
we were therefore able to get it back in twenty
four hours. Now, by the time that went to court,
(24:25):
there was no mention of Singapore and they hadn't even
given it to the Thailand National Forensics Laboratory. So what
was said in that interview on that beach was one
hundred percent incorrect. According to the police chief who attended
the court case. One thing I did say to him was,
as I understood it, there is never a direct match
on DNA, and you can only get the ninety nine
(24:48):
point five percent match and that has to be deemed circumstantial.
And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it was
a match it's a match. We know it's them.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Tier Police testified the samples were received on the morning
of September seventeenth, and started a DNA extraction at eight
am local time. This seems unlikely, as a pathologist only
started his autopsy at eleven am. The successful profiling of
the two men was announced around ten pm. It suggests
remarkably rapid analysis in less than twelve hours from samples
(25:20):
in which at least three people's DNA the victims and
two men were mixed. Connor as forensic expert Joseph Scott
Morgan for his take on the speed in which the
results were received.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
One of the other things that struck me and Andrew
and others that we've read and talked to people about
this is the quickness in which they turned the DNA
evidence around. And I'm sort of curious. There's references to
having this results back in less than twenty four to
thirty six hours. Is that possible if you think of
it as it has to leave the island, be sent
(25:52):
somewhere else, process and then results back. Is that Is
that just bullshit?
Speaker 8 (25:57):
Yeah? I think it is. I think it's complete bullshit.
We cannot judge this based upon twenty twenty two. Let's
just go back to twenty fourteen, but back then you'd
be looking generally at a six to eight week window.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
The DNA samples themselves could potentially have been compromised by
the way they were handled. But remember there were questions
over the collection of DNA at the crime scene. One
factor to consider there were people walking all over the
crime scene after Hannah and David's bodies were discovered.
Speaker 7 (26:28):
Six police officers that were on that island at the
time aren't really equipped for a complicated murder investigation. Now
that becomes significant because the forensic evidence in the case
of YPO and Zoylin will be absolutely crucial. Yeah, they
were say in court that it was one hundred percent
match from that crime scene for YPO and zao LN.
(26:50):
So the inability to look after that crime scene properly
will have an enormous bearing on the credibility of the investigation.
That we know that from what was heard in court
that there were several mixed DNA samples. Now that's really
important because that means that on one sample, when they're
trying to detect one person's DNA, it's very hard to
(27:13):
untangle back from another person.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
Another thing that was very interesting from day one was
there had been no chain of custody on the DNA samples.
So when you take DNA from someone, obviously it has
to be signed over to someone else, and signed over
to someone else, and signed over to someone else, so
by the time it reaches a testing lab, you know
exactly that that DNA sample has not been tampered with.
(27:35):
But in this case fully admitted in court with absolutely
no sense that this was something that was wrong. They
admitted there was no chain of custody on the DNA,
so it could have been anybody's DNA.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Angely I turned twenty fifteen, the defense lawyers requested to
retest the DNA samples received from Hannah weather Or's body
and from zell In and WPL.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
And when the defense asked to retest the samples that
they had to and the police chief stood up in
court and said, sorry, it's been used up. And when
asked by the judge what he meant by used up,
he answered and said it's used up. It's nothing left
to test and it's all gone now, nothing for you
to test.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Again. Subiuchanan.
Speaker 6 (28:16):
The Ties are known for getting rid of evidence that
could exonerate the people they have decided are guilty, like
in the case of way Puran is all In. You know,
they take the samples of DNA supposedly from Hannah. We
have no proof those DNA samples came from Hannah. They
tested them and then they probably lost them the amplified
part of them and lost the rest. And then when
(28:37):
the defense wanted to independently retest the DNA, they were told, well,
we've lost it or has been used up. There's none
left for independent testing. We've only got amplified samples. Well,
the amplified samples, we don't know which string of DNA
that came from. And while it very well could have
matched all In in wag Pure, it matched about nine
million other people. So you can't say with one amplified sample,
(28:57):
one amplified mixed sample without any supporting evidence documents, probability studies,
that that matched the boys. It may well have matched
the boys, but it probably matched me and you and
everybody listening to this podcast.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
And there are questions about some pieces of evidence that
either went missing or were never tested.
Speaker 12 (29:18):
The defense also argues that the police failed to test
a number of items from the crime scene including blood
on the rocks and sand, and Hannah's clothes.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
Hannah's underwear was missing, even though that the police said
that they'd had it as evidence, when it got to
the court they didn't have it, and she was reported
to have a lock of hair in her fingers when
they found her body, which obviously could well have belonged
to whoever assaulted her. And when they got to court,
the police chief, who was Lieutenant Colonel Somsek, admitted that
(29:53):
there was a lock of hair taken from Hannah's hands,
that the sample had been lost. When the judge said
to him, what do you mean lost, she said, oh,
it's just gone. We don't know where it is.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
It's just lost. Let's stop here for another break. This
brings us to what police claim was the murder weapon,
(30:22):
a garden hole. The defense as the top expert from
the Central Institute of Forensic Science and Thailand, doctor Porntip,
to examine the murder weapon.
Speaker 12 (30:32):
Doctor Porte reveals to the court that she has retested
the garden hoe. She says she found DNA from David
Miller and another unknown male who is neither Zorlin nor Waypo.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
Here's a portion of Tomstone's documentary Murder in Paradise. In it,
you'll hear doctor portneb saying, from the pieces of evidence
that are sent to me, there is only one that
is relevant. That is a hoe. By examining the DNA
found on the end of the whole, the DNA profiles
that are detected belong to two humans. Both are male.
(31:07):
We compared it with the defendant's DNA, but they did
not match. The result is that the DNA belonged to
two men, but not the two defendants.
Speaker 7 (31:16):
The defense forensic experts said that she'd found another sample
of somebody else who was not Ypoor was all in,
and I think that reflects just how difficult it was
that the crime team to properly wrote it off keep
other people off the grounds. And we don't know what
happened after David Na and Halloweerrich had died. We don't
(31:39):
know who else had passed through at that time. We
don't know what other contamination issues they might have had.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Here's what one time major general responded when asked about
the quality of their DNA analysis.
Speaker 9 (31:51):
I have no idea why people doesn't believe in that evidence.
We'd did it in the laboratory. We did it with
the specialist. The equipment that they use is come from
European standards, things like that comply with IS or something
(32:14):
I cannot remember, but.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
Subi Canon says. The defense's forensic expert pushed back against
the way the prosecution was presenting the DNA evidence.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
She was sent the garden hoe and she tested it,
and she said that the two DNA samples she found
on the garden hoe didn't match waypure or sort in. Now,
you can argue that those DNA samples, it was all
in way pure could easily been washed off that garden hoe.
But if you're washing a garden hose so thoroughly that
those DNA samples have gone, how come you know David's
(32:49):
DNA was on there and another Asian male has not
been washed that thoroughly.
Speaker 4 (32:53):
You would think that if they were hanging their case
on it, they would have made sure that they had
a tight case with Internet organizations or east their own
national forensics laboratory would have agreed. And in this case
was interesting that the National Forensics Institute in Thailand testified
for the defense. So as soon as that happened, they
(33:13):
at least closed down the DNA argument.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Overall, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan has five words for
the forensic evidence gathered in the case against Sauln and WPO.
Speaker 8 (33:25):
It's an absolute train wreck, and it seems like it
keeps repeating itself over and over again.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Joseph Morgan brings up one more important detail that should
be considered.
Speaker 8 (33:36):
Remember, they've put forth this idea of sexual assault okay
on this poor young woman and a disfigurement of her face.
Whoever did this would have potentially been bathed in blood.
Let's just say that you have an individual who has
facilitated this, they're going to be potentially saturated in blood.
(33:58):
These are fine pits of evidence. If they're walking away,
you can actually have passive blood droplets that are being
cast off from the hands or just dripped passively as
they're walking away. Can you imagine the wealth of information
if you had taken the time surveyed the scene. You
had to remember, we saw those images of the blood
where the body was kind of resting in the sand.
(34:19):
What if you had a trail concurrently with footprints where
the individual is walking away and you've got droplets of
blood that are leading away, Well, that stuff is very minute.
If you have everybody and their brother walking through the scene,
the slightest scuff on the ground can compromise any of
that very delicate evidence that's left behind. So that's the
(34:40):
kind of thing that you're looking at. It's very delicate work.
Speaker 5 (34:45):
And I want to make sure I understand you correctly.
What you are saying is is if our convicted suspects
probably did wield this hoe, they would have been covered
in blood, both on their skin, their fingernails, their hair,
and more importantly probably their clothes.
Speaker 8 (35:00):
Oh absolutely, And again I go back to the intimacy
of this assault. Connor, We're talking about very horrendous sexual assault.
And admittedly, you know, one of the things that the
authorities have put forward this poor young lady was struck
in the head in order to initially kind of stun
her so that this horrendous event could be carried out.
(35:24):
We don't know the volume of blood that issued forth
from her body, but I know this, the head is
one of the most vascular areas of the body, both
internally and externally. Ask anybody that's ever split their scalp
open in any passive thing and get blood that's going everywhere.
It looks like a horrorship.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
In our research on this case, we couldn't find any
evidence that Wapo or Zelen had clothing covered in blood.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
The next day, Zelln and Wapo reported to work and
they didn't have any marks on them, right, well.
Speaker 6 (35:55):
If they did, nobody noticed them. I mean, bearing in mind,
you know, two massive brutal murders of just and Place.
I think if anyone turned up to work with scratch
wounds and bruises and looking like they've been involved in
a fight, then you know they're going to be suspects,
aren't they. And I spoke to both Wape your Anzelin's boss,
and they both confirm they turn up to work as
normal the next day with you know, nothing unusual whatsoever.
(36:16):
And you know, if you committed the crime of that magnitude,
would you really spend the next two and a half
weeks sitting on the island when there's eight or nine
boats leaving every day and you can go back to
your family in Burma.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
More on that this season. If you have any information
about Hannah Withatheridge and David Miller, please contact us at
producers at Katdashstudios dot com for more information and relevant photos.
Follow us on Instagram at Kat Underscores Studios. Death Island
(36:49):
is produced by Stephanie Leidecker, Connor Powell, Andrew Arnell, Jeff Shane,
Chris Cacaro, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and
sound design Jeff Trois. Music by Vanicor Music. Death Island
is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
(37:12):
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
Conor Powell
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