December 31, 2024 • 49 mins
How’s your heart?
Joel Cross, known by his students and fans as A Soul Called Joel, joins us today to discuss the extraordinary power of mindful awareness through music, poetry, and meditation. Joel shares his journey as a musician and meditation teacher and how his travels have helped him heal and transform.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Take a deep breath in through your nose. Hold it
now release slowly again deep in helle hold release, repeating
(01:02):
internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I
am deeply, deeply well. I I am deeply well. I
(01:23):
am deeply wow. I'm Debbie Brown and this is the
Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place
(01:44):
to land on your journey of podcasts for those that
are curious, creative, and ready to expand in higher consciousness
and self care. This is where we heal, this is
where we come. Welcome back to the show. I'm Debi
Brown and today's episode we are deep, deep, deep deep,
diving and expanding in one of the most beautiful subjects
(02:08):
ever to grace this planet, one of the most masterful
tools to ever be given to us, and that is meditation.
Today's episode, I am joined by a very special guest,
one who I have loved watching from afar on Instagram
and connecting with their work and connecting with their daily inspiration.
(02:30):
Today's guest is Joel Cross, also known as a soul
called Joel. He's a certified meditation teacher, mindfulness coach, and
accomplished musician. He has been Grammy nominated for his collaborations
with India Ari Swoon. As a songwriter and a guitarist,
he has spent more than a decade immersed in research
(02:52):
and practice, and his wellness based offerings include the Rise Journal,
I Got That Poetry Music, and the Beautiful Mindfulness Community,
where he leaves guided meditations every morning. With a practical
approach to ancient meditation techniques, Joel helps individuals cultivate inner
peace and emotional stability while honoring their personal truths. A
(03:16):
soul called Joel, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
M thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
How is your heart full? In yours so expansive? My
heart feels really really grounded and also vast in some
new ways right now.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So it's a good space to be in. Yeah, yeah
it is.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Where do I even want to begin? You know what? Actually,
the first question I'm going to ask you before we
dive into all of the questions, what is your favorite
NDR RE album?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
From being really honest, it's still a sick soul. Oh yeah,
it's acoustics song. I remember being a teenager, I just
barely started playing guitar, didn't have any formal training. It
was just you know, messing with the instrument and I
heard the truth.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I heard Ready for Love heard video.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Of course, and I just remember thinking, that's what music's
supposed to sound like, that's what music is supposed to
be about.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
And of course as a guitar player, I totally nerded
out on all of the great musicians ever on the ring.
But yeah, I think that was the first time I
heard someone speak kindly about someone with a gap, which
was one of my insecurities I was working through as
a you know, a young man. But yeah, definitely acoustic soul.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Oh andr ree, It's just my god, what a gift
to this planet. Yes, what are her music and teachings
have just done? Especially I think back like on a
subconscious level, because there were songs that I connected to
so deeply at ages that I didn't have any depth
(05:13):
of self exploration in the way that I do now.
And I remember hearing those songs and then forgot and
I heard some recently and I was like, oh my god,
like she has been sharing the path for so long. Yeah,
you know, it's just like wow, I love her. I
(05:34):
love her. I love her. My favorite album is I
Might butcher this Because I always get a couple of
words Switched but Testimony, Love and Relationships Volume one, Oh
my god, Oh my god. Yeah, yeah that that has
been such a beautiful homecoming for me for over ten years.
(06:00):
Every time I get to reconnect with that album, I'm
it's just.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Like, what a genius. What a genius? Yes, she really is.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I would love to get started Jel by asking you,
how did you connect to meditation for the first time
and how did you start that personal journey with it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah, it's really kind of odd, but I come from
a very spiritual background, but it was very Christian traditional,
and around my early twenties, I felt myself wanting to
expand beyond that, not knowing what to do or where
(06:40):
to go. But meditation was loud in my intuition, just
like a spotlight on it in my life. And one
day I was finding like, Okay, I guess I'm going
to meditate. I have no idea what I'm doing. I
sit down in the corner of my room. I find
some meditation music on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I put it on.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I was so inflexible I couldn't even sit cross legged right.
So I'm just kind of like hunkered down in this
corner and I have the most profound experience. I just
start intuitively breathing, and with each in breath, I would
focus on my thought out breath, I would visualize it
(07:21):
dissolving until there was nothing else in my mind. And
then I had this amazing visualization.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It was.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
This intertwined connection with all of life. So as I exhaled,
whatever that last thought was disappeared, and I was shown
light coming down on it, and that light was combined
with the energy of that thought, of that idea and
being dispersed throughout the cosmos. Right, And then I saw
(07:54):
the water running through the plants, turning into the air
we breathe, and then someone harvesting that tree, turning it
into the desk that was in my room, right, And
then even driving down the road, feeling the energy of
the person next to me, and how that impacted me
very subtly, but very profoundly. And next thing I knew
(08:16):
it was about an hour later. I felt so light
I thought I was going to take flight. And I
came out of my room, still had my college roommates,
and I was like, guys.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I don't know what just happened, but you got to
dry this. Yeah. Wow, that was my first.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Experience You're first was the awakening?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
And so what changed after that?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Well, after that I started diving more deeply into the practice, certainly.
But what was interesting about six months later, I was
still very much a musician and only a musician, and
I caught tendinitis in my hand, and so my identity
was very wrapped up in music and only music. And
(09:14):
there was a bit of a crumbling of that whole
egoic structure because I went from practicing ten twelve hours
a day playing very fast jazz music to not being
able to play very basic songs I had learned when
I was a teenager. And I dove into the practice
(09:35):
and actually found this book You Can Heal Your Life
by Luise Hay, and she started talking about, well, all
of our illness is coming from where areas we haven't forgiven.
And in my mind, I'm like, I'm not holding anything
against anyone. I love everybody right, And she has this
(09:57):
dissolving resentment exercise that's I think it was created by
emmid Fox, where you're visualizing all the people in your
life on a stage doing the thing they love to
try to get into your subconscious And so I'm going
through different family members, friends, and I get to my
(10:18):
father and I couldn't do it, and I broke down bawling.
And so that became my meditation practice, just sitting on
my front porch in North Texas underneath an oldal tree
and trying to visualize my father having an enjoyable experience
(10:38):
as a way to heal and forgive. And after a
few months I was able to do it, and it
just kind of broke me open the whole other perspective
of my life on ways to connect to how I
perceive my reality, receive the world around me, but also
(11:01):
how absent I was from my feelings.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Oh yeah, that part, you know, yeah, that piece of
the dance of surrendering into meditation is it's just so
beautifully designed, so interesting, and so challenging. Yes, you know,
(11:30):
I don't. There are so many things that I want
to bring up right now at the same time about
things that you said, gosh so much. I think you
bring up the piece that I think keeps so many
people from going past that one or two times with
(11:51):
like a five minute practice or like a five minute
guided session to doing the deeper part of the truth,
sitting in silence with self. You know as a meditation teacher,
the first thing that I think many of us find
that we have to deal with is every person, every
(12:12):
single person that can test that they think too much.
You know, everyone thinks they're the only one that thinks
too much. It's like me too, before, I before, I
keep going, you know, but that is to be human.
It's why we're here. We're constantly processing and churning and
releasing this lifetime and so many so it's of course
(12:34):
we have thousands and thousands, but you know, the piece
about being able to access those deeper levels of our
own emotional life. I think that's where the fear comes
in for many that are desiring to start a practice.
You get through a couple guided meditations, you kind of
get into that five minute and you're feeling good because
(12:55):
you're feeling that initial kind of gratefulness for being able
to do it, noticing that you're not used to being
that still or that quiet, and then after a couple
of weeks, like the portal opens for you to start
releasing and noticing, why don't my hips come down when
I'm first trying to sit in a meditative posture, or
(13:16):
why does that stiffness come up, and why do I
judge it and get angry with it? And would you
speak to some of the ways to approach that feeling
when it begins and how to meet it, what to
do with it.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yeah, I demystify by reframing the definition of meditation, and
I try to keep it as simple as possible. It's
self regulating your attention with intension, So I try to
let go of all of the ideas around this is
(13:53):
how I'm supposed to sit, this is the rigid structure
of what is kind of the mainstream idea of meditation.
And then I actually just send them to the journal, like,
don't even worry about how you're sitting, don't worry about
what's going on in your brain. Be active, right, So
focus your attention on writing and don't even judge it.
(14:15):
It's kind of how the Rise journal came about, because
the start of it is all about just really seeing
stream of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Writing.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You're letting go of what's happening, You're being present to
what you're thinking, but you're also detaching at the same time.
So from that space it's like, oh wait, meditation can
be journaling. It opens them wide and then they start
building the confidence in the practice still yielding some of
(14:43):
the similar results, but from a totally different vantage point. Then,
of course, as you create that space, asking deeper questions,
asking hard questions as I like to call them, and
then holding space to hear from your heart right just
a few breaths opens you up in a way where
(15:05):
you're not worried about how you're sitting or judging yourself.
It's like you can do it for three breaths. Yeah,
and it's been so beautiful to hear the feedback from
the individuals who have started the journal on how much
it's really had an impact on their journeys.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, that's the journey of meditation. It brings you so
many things you never knew to know you needed, especially
getting back into your body. I think that is a
big piece where when you start a meditation practice, you
(15:47):
don't realize that that's one of the fruits of it.
You don't even know that maybe you're out of your body,
or that you don't feel less connected to your emotional life,
and that you've never investigated why don't I? And you know,
then it all pours in slowly over time. You so
you begin every morning with your opening grading on Instagram,
(16:09):
and as I look at your page, I see how
much everyone that connects with your work especially connects with
that invitation to join the experience. So you begin by saying,
good morning, beautiful soul, how's your heart? How did that
come to you?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
You know?
Speaker 3 (16:31):
I think the first time someone asked me how my
heart was, it was a dear friend I call her
mama A. She's like a second friend, a second mom.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Excuse me.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
And she's also in the wellness space psycho therapist and
a healer and showed up better space and she asked
me that. I was like, oh, I feel like I've
asked myself that in my journal in a way, but
I hadn't heard it from the outside. And you know,
this was maybe over a decade to go, and I
(17:01):
carried that, it's like someone else really in my space.
I was doing that, and I also at that same
time wanted to do it, but didn't know how to
initiate it with people.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
So, as I've been on this kind of wild journey
the last few years of kind of transitioning away from
this solo identity as a musician to sharing some of
my spiritual, spiritual parts of my life, with the world.
It's my creative process is all about flow. It stems
(17:34):
from this book Effortless Mastery, which changed my life. Literally
it's actually part of the way I met India. I'll
have to tell you that story at some point, but
it's literally about getting into this space or understanding this
idea that every other part of life is happening effortlessly right.
And a lot of those practices were all about channeling
(17:57):
the force of life as you breathe, own your mastery
as Debi, as Joel, and understanding that's not going to
look like any other person, and allowing it to float
through you.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
And from that place, all you have to do is
connect to the heart, listen, receive, and share. And as
I'm out of my hikes, walking meditation is my jam.
So I get into flow state on my hikes and
then once I feel connected, I just kind of turn
on the camera. And one day that came out and
(18:32):
I started sharing it and people really resonated with it,
and so I shared it more.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, those daily videos are so soothing, I think, especially
to the nervous system, because you are always in this
stunning backdrop somewhere where you know it is just like
the wild natural, you know, experience of being on earth
and being alive of what does your day to day
(19:01):
life look like? What is Have you always kind of
lived on the land or Okay.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
No, definitely not. So my day to day life now
is very different from how I grew up or how
I've lived up until about three years ago. I was
in New York City, living in the middle of Manhattan. Wow,
writing music, playing music, and that's what I did.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Was married.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
That marriage didn't work out, and as I transitioned from
that lifestyle, I went into a deep, deep surrendering to
my heart. And for a long time I wanted to travel.
I wanted to explore nature and really dive into a
minimalist lifestyle. And of course it was also the middle
(19:51):
of COVID, so that dream of doing that in Spain
wasn't going to happen. So the next best thing was
the RV. So I got an RV, got a truck,
and my gut was saying, get a field recorder, go
(20:12):
follow the resonance, the energy of the space. My intention
was to be able to navigate the energy of home
in any space right And so it led me actually
back to Maine that first summer, so I had gone
back to Texas to be with family for a while
to kind of regroup, and then I drove up to
(20:35):
literally the northern farthest most east point in the country,
and I thought I was going to stay a week,
ended up staying for two months.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
And every day it was literally, Okay, how's my heart.
That's a check in, But then it's what does my
heart want me to do today? Be very simple. Sometimes
we just go check out this trail, go check out that.
And I would always have my guitar in the truck,
(21:06):
in my chair, And one day I found some random
beach and it's rocky. I had to like off road.
I'm the only person out there, and I hear very
loudly just play. So I just kind of set up
things and I start playing, and I'm just in this
state a deep connection to source and nature. And there's
(21:31):
this beautiful thing that happens when you get far enough
away from the collective energy that you feel this clarity
and this piece of just being a human animal on
this planet. Right, And we try to separate ourselves from
the other animals. We're human animals, right. We have a
(21:52):
lot of gifts that they don't have, but reconnecting to
the earth in a way where there's no distraction, there's
no need to do anything. Thing else would be And
in that heart space is where all the gold lies.
It's our seed, right, you're planning seed for a flower.
You give it the proper environment you will grow for us,
(22:15):
listening to the wisdom and instructions in our seed is
how we grow.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
That must have felt so extraordinary, especially processing the ending
of something meaningful to you in the midst of a
global reckoning. To have this space, like very literally, like
to be in such an expansive element, all your cells
(22:47):
kind of follow suit. You know. How did that process
feel for you? And how do you feel that you
emerged from the pendemic?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Oh wow, it's like a cocoon going into a cocoon,
if you will. Yeah, that travel trailer was my cocoon.
It was a deeply challenging process. Right, I don't even
remember what you asked me earlier, totally like went left
and I'm realizing that now, so you'll have to ask
(23:23):
me to get But that process felt like a deep
shedding of the disguises and masks and the unconscious manipulation disguises. Yeah, Yeah,
there's a song I wrote with India called the Hour
of Love, and it's all about taking an hour each
(23:45):
day for your practice or your prayer, whatever your rituals are.
And at the end we have the refrain be rid
of your disguises again, Be rid of your disguises again,
Be rid of your disguises again, because every day we
have a sense memory with all of these spaces and people,
and we forget, right, we have to forget ourselves to
(24:08):
feel safe or to protect ourselves in those situations, not
realizing that we could reconnect to hope and transform our
situation or rather set the tone in those spaces deeply.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Well, how many years have you been in the RV now?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Three?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
This is a big question that I know has like
such a multitude of answers, But I will attempt that
experience of being by yourself and also very consciously being
(24:57):
intuitively led about where your next destiny. I just you know,
I can't even imagine how masterful and healing having that
as an addition to the process of everything else right,
because it's like then you are living in intuition and
you're also not being You're not leaking energy in any
(25:20):
way especially from those day to day interactions or you know,
just bumping up against a lot of the fear and
the grief that's present in people right now.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, So looking back who you were when you stepped
in to right now three years later in this moment,
what are you noticing as some of the greatest gifts
of this experience.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Oh, freedom is the one word answer, but there's so many.
I remember before maybe twenty eighteen, there was a meme
that said I want a life, I don't need a vacation,
(26:07):
and I was like, Oh, that's so great, and then
I see that with that, I was like, what does
that even mean for me? You know, what would that
look like? And I knew that I didn't want to
have as spontaneous a schedule as I did as only
a musician, because I wanted to have children one day
(26:28):
and you know that'll come at some point. But a
large part of that was i'de work an hour or
two each day. I have a lot of time to
connect to nature, have a lot of time to be
with my family and those who I care about, because
(26:48):
I know that I don't need much, but I also
know that I'm happiest when i'm connected to those things.
So the greatest gift is that now I'm closer to
that dream than ever, and I feel more embodied than ever.
I had to face a lot of my own demons
(27:08):
through that process, the ways that I created a partnership
that wasn't resonant with who I am because of all
those masks and disguises. Doing some deep soul healing work
with my family. Of course, we all know those things
start in childhood. Yeah, and to face one of my
greatest fears, which was to be rejected by my family
(27:29):
as maybe one of the as the only individual and
the immediate family who doesn't adhere to the tradition.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
That we were brought up in. Wow.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
So's it's freedom to know that beyond that fear, we
still love each other.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Had a lot of growing.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Pains and learning how to accept the things that may
or may not ever be.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
What we want.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You know, when you speak about especially the dynamic that
the Christian Church and black family in the Christian Church,
you know the role that that plays, both the deep
importance especially historically, and also some of the ways that
I think collectively were exploring some of the negative aspects
(28:19):
of that and relationships of that. How has as a
black man, how has that? What have you been noticing
with that? I don't necessarily have a question around it,
because I've been observing it myself. And you know, as
someone I didn't grow up in the church, I kind
of grew up with all beliefs, none that were given
(28:42):
to me, but I was always exploring them everywhere. But
you know, I remember when I first started teaching meditation,
it really caught me by surprise how substantial that part
of our belief was is, and how many spaces I
was going into and it was being so rejected, and
(29:05):
how as a teacher I had to really adopt and
study different ways of teaching this so that people didn't
think it was a competitor of God. They understood it
was one and the same. And you know, is often
shared in this work prayers, when you talk to God,
meditation is when you listen for the answers. So to
(29:29):
take up a lifestyle like this in many regards right,
like being out alone in nature right, And so many people,
especially in communities of color, historically haven't always had access
to nature because of you know, laws during segregation that
then led us to thinking that that's not for us,
and so you're you're you're kind of shifting a lot
(29:52):
of things by existing, by being yourself right now in
this moment, and so what are I'm just curious any
thoughts or observations you've had out kind of those polarities
and navigating conversations with people from more of a Christian community.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, you know, so for a more accurate depiction of
my upbringing, my dad's like a third generation Southern Baptist.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Wow, so's it's thick family.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
My grandfather at a church in New Orleans. My great
grandfather started that church and now I think my cousin's
the lead pastor of that church. So there's a long,
a long history there. And now within the black community
in general, I think there is a lot of different misunderstandings.
(30:55):
I think because there hasn't been a lot of exposure
in those spaces, because we have a lot of trauma
in our community, right and that's where we found safety.
That's where we found ways to connect and transcend mentally
and spiritually. The injustices and the hatred and the murders
and everything that we endured as a community. That was
(31:17):
our anchor. And so we learned through that history that
anything other than may disrupt that feeling of security, and
so my approach now it's one of the reasons that
I use the language of the heart, because I wanted
to find the language that we can agree on. And
(31:37):
when I use words like God or even the divine,
it gets there's a lot of questions, right, So when
I think of hard I'm like, well, we're all off heart,
we all have love. How can we approach this from
a vantage point of connection, right and harmony? But even
(31:58):
still there's those who will be close to that. But
I recognize that it's really about exposure, and I know
that within my community, my family unit, that I've softened
a lot of those rough edges in a way because
(32:18):
as family, even though there were periods where we struggled,
there was still that pure intention of wanting to stay connected,
wanted to be as loving as we knew how, and
learning that unconditional love means showing up to meet people
where they are right, and how we find constancy in
(32:41):
that is grace and compassion. The other thing I wanted
to share about our community and this whole piece with nature,
going back to George Floyd, for me, I had a
deep I think we all had a deep awakening of
sorts around injustice in our country. I had to figure
(33:09):
out how I wanted to approach that topic in a
way that would transform our community while also maintaining who
I am. And one of the intentions around my travel
was to embody us reclaiming our bodies in nature as
(33:31):
grounding as we know it is to see, you know,
if I'm in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest or
by a river or whatever it may be, for us
to reclaim a right as humans, human animals, human species
on this planet out of nature. Because I can tell
you when I told my parents what I was going
to do, they were like, where are you going?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Why? Right? You know.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Where you're going to the remote places? You know, I've
been way off grid. And but you know, part of
that was healing my own trauma around nature and having
those fears and fixing them. And you had a Resma
Minicum on your show.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yes I did, good brother, Yes, Yes.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Thank you Resma. In order to learn thank you. But
after doing some work through his book Grandma's.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Hands, God, My Grandmother's Hands.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Yes, yeah, like healing some of that trauma around police
and injustice. It shifted my perspective on how to honor
this wow right as a black man out of nature,
not just the stigma we have around going out, but
also culturally the identity that we bear within the stereotype
(34:53):
as black people don't do certain things.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, yeah, and how.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Just limiting that can be and misleading you know. So
that was Those are the ways that I approach those things.
But it's still a journey, journey for sure.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
What are some of the things you like to do
when you're alone in nature?
Speaker 3 (35:22):
I'm alone. I will put on a fire if the
weather's great, make a kettle of tea and play guitar.
Or I will write poetry, read are just ground, just ground,
and enjoy it. And of course it's all all of
(35:45):
that is a meditation to me, it's not separate.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I went through this thing of recognizing all these identities
we attached to right as a black man, as a
man of a certain age, assistant mail and realizing I
kind of bust a lot of those things wide open, right,
And realizing on a fundamental level is human animals. We
(36:12):
are supposed to be connected to nature, and the way
I feel comfortable doing that is by just honoring the pool.
I don't have to overthink it. It doesn't have to
be again this whole life that I don't want to
vacation from.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
If I'm connected every day, I'm not stressed, I'm not
overworking myself. I'm not stuck in the productivity, capitalistic identity
or pattern. It can be connect to the community in
the mornings and enjoy the day deeply.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Wow. Connecting with nature has been one of the most like,
surprisingly pleasurable, exciting, incredible experiences. I think of my life
and I grew up in La so we have a
beautiful city.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
It's not that I'm far from nature, but it's not
outside of the beach. It's not something like you're going
out of your way to do. But that forest energy,
like that river energy, is crazy. It's just like, Wow.
I had this experience recently. I just shared it on
(37:34):
this last episode. But it's so much funnier than I've
even told it now. But I'm going to tell it
more of a basic way. But I went. I was
visiting Paris a couple weeks ago, and by surprise, I
found this tiny little forest on the outskirts of Paris,
which was like I did not expect that to happen. Yeah,
(37:57):
And the second I walked in it almost felt like
a movie Like it was like, you know, secret garden
or something like you push through this little path and
you open up, you know, the branches, and all of
a sudden, it's like, ha, you know, it's just this
whole ancient forest with moss grown over all of the bark.
And that takes a certain amount of years and decades
(38:19):
to happen, and you know, it's just being able to
I love to like bury my hands and feet and
like the soiler and like especially if I'm somewhere like Sedona,
but having opportunities for me now to be out traveling,
whether for work or pleasure, and find like a beautiful
(38:39):
natural element of that area and almost you know, it
feels as if I my soul longs to pay homage
to the earth in that area and to learn from
it while I'm there. So it's been exquisite getting to
know nature, and for so I think for so many
of us, that is the piece where it's like when
(39:01):
we first think of our practices, it's kind of your
your I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this,
I'm gonna do this. I'm going to do something for
you know, my mind, my spirit, my body. And it's
such a checklist kind of thing that it can be overwhelming,
so it doesn't even feel good for quite a while.
It feels like a chore. But turning your practice into
(39:23):
everything that you just said, which is it's not rigid,
it's flexible. It's based on your intuition, it's based on
the longings of your being for that day, for that moment,
and then getting out and just being at play.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
We're really simple beings.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, and we live in a world that's been complicated.
This The thing that kind of brought me back was
have you read Miracle of Mindfulness? Taking that hon Oh?
That was my first book on meditation. I read very
simple manual. I was inspired by him because he was
(40:07):
a mentor for our Martin Luther King, one of many,
I'm sure, but so I read this book and keeps
it very simple. He's like, when eating an orange, you
should know how to eat an orange. When washing the dishes,
you should know how to wash the dishes. And at
(40:27):
first it was like, I don't get it, what are
you talking about? This is so weird, and he repeats
all of these different daily activities, and then he mentions
this manual that a lot of the monks had, which
is called the Essential Discipline for Daily Use, And they
had all of these little mantras that they would apply
to different daily activities. And one of the ones I
(40:47):
remember well is washing my hands. I hope that every
being has pure hands to receive reality. Yeah, right, right,
And so I went looking for this book, couldn't find
it at the time, so I started writing my own
(41:07):
and I would do that. As I washed my hands,
I would have these intentions or as I brushed my teeth,
little daily things a few moments, right, thirty seconds, whatever
it is, a few breasts, and I realized I developed
a sense memory with these spaces, right, So as I
would make my tea, I would just feel peaceful and
drownded as I washed my hands, and then I would
just kind of stay mostly in the flow throughout the day,
(41:31):
where there wasn't this heavy partition of I need to
spend an hour a day because this week just was
like ruined me. I've been so overwhelmed. But these little
moments of all the things you're going to do anyway
now become a part.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Of the practice.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
That's mastery. Yeah, Like it's devotional, ritualistic to master something
with ease, with grace, to commit the knowing to your body. Yeah,
and to make it. The word that I keep using
for for what I experience in that way is like pleasurable,
you know, to make it feel good throughout.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
That.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah, that is that has been the change, the deepening
I think I've been most excited about in my own
life and practice. You know, practicing meditation for quite a while,
but it takes time to get to the places you
need to get to. And it's been in the last
couple of years that it's just felt no matter what
(42:39):
you could be going through, just almost it's just such
a craving to have this spiritual practice. There is no
way I would miss a second of it. I'll move
anything else around in my life to make time for that.
You know, any meeting can be canceled for my meditation
and to hit that point and to really know what
(43:05):
it took to get there. For each of us individually,
when we make it there, whatever that looks like for
each of us, it's just so beautiful, you know, just
such a pride really sets in for what you were
willing to dance with and let go of. Wow.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Yeah, it's so beautiful to hear the stories of others
and when, where and how and their avenue. Even you
describing this little forested area in Paris that was naturally touched.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Oh my god, it's so avid.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Because on one hand, you're in Paris right right, and
then there's this natural area that's just captivating and resonating.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
I was ret force for three hours, you know, like
it was just and I really and there were so
many tiny paths, there was a there was just this
like insane amount of crows filling the forest talking to
each other. And I'm rarely around crows. It was just like,
(44:12):
oh god, it was so good.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so it's funny, right, Yes,
that's that's the thing for me. I had this awakening
in twenty twenty one, this moment, like a third eye thing,
and I went out on this walk, long walk, like
ten miles, and the birds. It was like I could
(44:40):
hear the birds. It was like I've lived my whole life,
but I haven't heard the birds. They really taken in
their unique song, their essence, their brightness, They're brilliant and
feeling it like letting it move you. And it was
the most beautiful thing. And so it joy. Now just
(45:00):
to hear bird songs, I laugh and I'm taken because
I feel like I understand something about them that I
never had access to.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Oh God, to be alive, be alive, to be awakened,
what a joy, what a gift to witness it all
a soul cultural I think as my final question on
(45:33):
this episode, I would like to ask you if you
could share some soul work with us. Is there a
prompt that you can leave with our audience for self awareness,
for reflection, something to meditate to, to savor throughout today?
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Hm, there is this size this year with my community
over the weekend. It's really simple and it's you know,
you think average lifespan about eighty years. Subtract whatever your
age is, right, and now'll think of your favorite season
(46:20):
you have that many of those seasons left?
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Right?
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I feel like years for some reason goes over our head.
But if you think of your favorite season and the
scarcity of that season, something turns on.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
And now.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
It's very simple, right, So just close your eyes, breathing
into the heart space and simply as the heart, what
does it want those seasons to be? What is it
(47:00):
want them to look like? I feel like? And then
(47:21):
once that vision arises, simply set the intention to honor
the vision of your heart. And another breath, simply returning
(47:45):
to the room.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Thank you, m welcome, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
How can everyone get connected to you?
Speaker 2 (47:59):
That's the.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
On all the social media, the Soul Cultural and a
soul Cultural dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
And rise journal and Amazon Primeate. Yes, Joel, thank you
so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
We'll be back next week, no mistay. Connect with me
on social at Debbie Brown that's Twitter and Instagram, or
you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.
And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,
don't forget. Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this
(48:39):
episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacqueis Thomas,
Samantha Timmins and me Debbie Brown. The beautiful Soundback You
Heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Wherever you listen
(49:01):
to your favorite shows,
Take a deep breath in through your nose. Hold it
now release slowly again deep in helle hold release, repeating
(01:02):
internally to yourself as you connect to my voice. I
am deeply, deeply well. I I am deeply well. I
(01:23):
am deeply wow. I'm Debbie Brown and this is the
Deeply Well Podcast. Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place
(01:44):
to land on your journey of podcasts for those that
are curious, creative, and ready to expand in higher consciousness
and self care. This is where we heal, this is
where we come. Welcome back to the show. I'm Debi
Brown and today's episode we are deep, deep, deep deep,
diving and expanding in one of the most beautiful subjects
(02:08):
ever to grace this planet, one of the most masterful
tools to ever be given to us, and that is meditation.
Today's episode, I am joined by a very special guest,
one who I have loved watching from afar on Instagram
and connecting with their work and connecting with their daily inspiration.
(02:30):
Today's guest is Joel Cross, also known as a soul
called Joel. He's a certified meditation teacher, mindfulness coach, and
accomplished musician. He has been Grammy nominated for his collaborations
with India Ari Swoon. As a songwriter and a guitarist,
he has spent more than a decade immersed in research
(02:52):
and practice, and his wellness based offerings include the Rise Journal,
I Got That Poetry Music, and the Beautiful Mindfulness Community,
where he leaves guided meditations every morning. With a practical
approach to ancient meditation techniques, Joel helps individuals cultivate inner
peace and emotional stability while honoring their personal truths. A
(03:16):
soul called Joel, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
M thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
How is your heart full? In yours so expansive? My
heart feels really really grounded and also vast in some
new ways right now.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
So it's a good space to be in. Yeah, yeah
it is.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Where do I even want to begin? You know what? Actually,
the first question I'm going to ask you before we
dive into all of the questions, what is your favorite
NDR RE album?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
From being really honest, it's still a sick soul. Oh yeah,
it's acoustics song. I remember being a teenager, I just
barely started playing guitar, didn't have any formal training. It
was just you know, messing with the instrument and I
heard the truth.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I heard Ready for Love heard video.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Of course, and I just remember thinking, that's what music's
supposed to sound like, that's what music is supposed to
be about.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
And of course as a guitar player, I totally nerded
out on all of the great musicians ever on the ring.
But yeah, I think that was the first time I
heard someone speak kindly about someone with a gap, which
was one of my insecurities I was working through as
a you know, a young man. But yeah, definitely acoustic soul.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Oh andr ree, It's just my god, what a gift
to this planet. Yes, what are her music and teachings
have just done? Especially I think back like on a
subconscious level, because there were songs that I connected to
so deeply at ages that I didn't have any depth
(05:13):
of self exploration in the way that I do now.
And I remember hearing those songs and then forgot and
I heard some recently and I was like, oh my god,
like she has been sharing the path for so long. Yeah,
you know, it's just like wow, I love her. I
(05:34):
love her. I love her. My favorite album is I
Might butcher this Because I always get a couple of
words Switched but Testimony, Love and Relationships Volume one, Oh
my god, Oh my god. Yeah, yeah that that has
been such a beautiful homecoming for me for over ten years.
(06:00):
Every time I get to reconnect with that album, I'm
it's just.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Like, what a genius. What a genius? Yes, she really is.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
I would love to get started Jel by asking you,
how did you connect to meditation for the first time
and how did you start that personal journey with it.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah, it's really kind of odd, but I come from
a very spiritual background, but it was very Christian traditional,
and around my early twenties, I felt myself wanting to
expand beyond that, not knowing what to do or where
(06:40):
to go. But meditation was loud in my intuition, just
like a spotlight on it in my life. And one
day I was finding like, Okay, I guess I'm going
to meditate. I have no idea what I'm doing. I
sit down in the corner of my room. I find
some meditation music on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
I put it on.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I was so inflexible I couldn't even sit cross legged right.
So I'm just kind of like hunkered down in this
corner and I have the most profound experience. I just
start intuitively breathing, and with each in breath, I would
focus on my thought out breath, I would visualize it
(07:21):
dissolving until there was nothing else in my mind. And
then I had this amazing visualization.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It was.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
This intertwined connection with all of life. So as I exhaled,
whatever that last thought was disappeared, and I was shown
light coming down on it, and that light was combined
with the energy of that thought, of that idea and
being dispersed throughout the cosmos. Right, And then I saw
(07:54):
the water running through the plants, turning into the air
we breathe, and then someone harvesting that tree, turning it
into the desk that was in my room, right, And
then even driving down the road, feeling the energy of
the person next to me, and how that impacted me
very subtly, but very profoundly. And next thing I knew
(08:16):
it was about an hour later. I felt so light
I thought I was going to take flight. And I
came out of my room, still had my college roommates,
and I was like, guys.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I don't know what just happened, but you got to
dry this. Yeah. Wow, that was my first.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Experience You're first was the awakening?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
And so what changed after that?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Well, after that I started diving more deeply into the practice, certainly.
But what was interesting about six months later, I was
still very much a musician and only a musician, and
I caught tendinitis in my hand, and so my identity
was very wrapped up in music and only music. And
(09:14):
there was a bit of a crumbling of that whole
egoic structure because I went from practicing ten twelve hours
a day playing very fast jazz music to not being
able to play very basic songs I had learned when
I was a teenager. And I dove into the practice
(09:35):
and actually found this book You Can Heal Your Life
by Luise Hay, and she started talking about, well, all
of our illness is coming from where areas we haven't forgiven.
And in my mind, I'm like, I'm not holding anything
against anyone. I love everybody right, And she has this
(09:57):
dissolving resentment exercise that's I think it was created by
emmid Fox, where you're visualizing all the people in your
life on a stage doing the thing they love to
try to get into your subconscious And so I'm going
through different family members, friends, and I get to my
(10:18):
father and I couldn't do it, and I broke down bawling.
And so that became my meditation practice, just sitting on
my front porch in North Texas underneath an oldal tree
and trying to visualize my father having an enjoyable experience
(10:38):
as a way to heal and forgive. And after a
few months I was able to do it, and it
just kind of broke me open the whole other perspective
of my life on ways to connect to how I
perceive my reality, receive the world around me, but also
(11:01):
how absent I was from my feelings.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Oh yeah, that part, you know, yeah, that piece of
the dance of surrendering into meditation is it's just so
beautifully designed, so interesting, and so challenging. Yes, you know,
(11:30):
I don't. There are so many things that I want
to bring up right now at the same time about
things that you said, gosh so much. I think you
bring up the piece that I think keeps so many
people from going past that one or two times with
(11:51):
like a five minute practice or like a five minute
guided session to doing the deeper part of the truth,
sitting in silence with self. You know as a meditation teacher,
the first thing that I think many of us find
that we have to deal with is every person, every
(12:12):
single person that can test that they think too much.
You know, everyone thinks they're the only one that thinks
too much. It's like me too, before, I before, I
keep going, you know, but that is to be human.
It's why we're here. We're constantly processing and churning and
releasing this lifetime and so many so it's of course
(12:34):
we have thousands and thousands, but you know, the piece
about being able to access those deeper levels of our
own emotional life. I think that's where the fear comes
in for many that are desiring to start a practice.
You get through a couple guided meditations, you kind of
get into that five minute and you're feeling good because
(12:55):
you're feeling that initial kind of gratefulness for being able
to do it, noticing that you're not used to being
that still or that quiet, and then after a couple
of weeks, like the portal opens for you to start
releasing and noticing, why don't my hips come down when
I'm first trying to sit in a meditative posture, or
(13:16):
why does that stiffness come up, and why do I
judge it and get angry with it? And would you
speak to some of the ways to approach that feeling
when it begins and how to meet it, what to
do with it.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Yeah, I demystify by reframing the definition of meditation, and
I try to keep it as simple as possible. It's
self regulating your attention with intension, So I try to
let go of all of the ideas around this is
(13:53):
how I'm supposed to sit, this is the rigid structure
of what is kind of the mainstream idea of meditation.
And then I actually just send them to the journal, like,
don't even worry about how you're sitting, don't worry about
what's going on in your brain. Be active, right, So
focus your attention on writing and don't even judge it.
(14:15):
It's kind of how the Rise journal came about, because
the start of it is all about just really seeing
stream of consciousness.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Writing.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
You're letting go of what's happening, You're being present to
what you're thinking, but you're also detaching at the same time.
So from that space it's like, oh wait, meditation can
be journaling. It opens them wide and then they start
building the confidence in the practice still yielding some of
(14:43):
the similar results, but from a totally different vantage point. Then,
of course, as you create that space, asking deeper questions,
asking hard questions as I like to call them, and
then holding space to hear from your heart right just
a few breaths opens you up in a way where
(15:05):
you're not worried about how you're sitting or judging yourself.
It's like you can do it for three breaths. Yeah,
and it's been so beautiful to hear the feedback from
the individuals who have started the journal on how much
it's really had an impact on their journeys.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, that's the journey of meditation. It brings you so
many things you never knew to know you needed, especially
getting back into your body. I think that is a
big piece where when you start a meditation practice, you
(15:47):
don't realize that that's one of the fruits of it.
You don't even know that maybe you're out of your body,
or that you don't feel less connected to your emotional life,
and that you've never investigated why don't I? And you know,
then it all pours in slowly over time. You so
you begin every morning with your opening grading on Instagram,
(16:09):
and as I look at your page, I see how
much everyone that connects with your work especially connects with
that invitation to join the experience. So you begin by saying,
good morning, beautiful soul, how's your heart? How did that
come to you?
Speaker 2 (16:30):
You know?
Speaker 3 (16:31):
I think the first time someone asked me how my
heart was, it was a dear friend I call her
mama A. She's like a second friend, a second mom.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Excuse me.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
And she's also in the wellness space psycho therapist and
a healer and showed up better space and she asked
me that. I was like, oh, I feel like I've
asked myself that in my journal in a way, but
I hadn't heard it from the outside. And you know,
this was maybe over a decade to go, and I
(17:01):
carried that, it's like someone else really in my space.
I was doing that, and I also at that same
time wanted to do it, but didn't know how to
initiate it with people.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
So, as I've been on this kind of wild journey
the last few years of kind of transitioning away from
this solo identity as a musician to sharing some of
my spiritual, spiritual parts of my life, with the world.
It's my creative process is all about flow. It stems
(17:34):
from this book Effortless Mastery, which changed my life. Literally
it's actually part of the way I met India. I'll
have to tell you that story at some point, but
it's literally about getting into this space or understanding this
idea that every other part of life is happening effortlessly right.
And a lot of those practices were all about channeling
(17:57):
the force of life as you breathe, own your mastery
as Debi, as Joel, and understanding that's not going to
look like any other person, and allowing it to float
through you.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
And from that place, all you have to do is
connect to the heart, listen, receive, and share. And as
I'm out of my hikes, walking meditation is my jam.
So I get into flow state on my hikes and
then once I feel connected, I just kind of turn
on the camera. And one day that came out and
(18:32):
I started sharing it and people really resonated with it,
and so I shared it more.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, those daily videos are so soothing, I think, especially
to the nervous system, because you are always in this
stunning backdrop somewhere where you know it is just like
the wild natural, you know, experience of being on earth
and being alive of what does your day to day
(19:01):
life look like? What is Have you always kind of
lived on the land or Okay.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
No, definitely not. So my day to day life now
is very different from how I grew up or how
I've lived up until about three years ago. I was
in New York City, living in the middle of Manhattan. Wow,
writing music, playing music, and that's what I did.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Was married.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
That marriage didn't work out, and as I transitioned from
that lifestyle, I went into a deep, deep surrendering to
my heart. And for a long time I wanted to travel.
I wanted to explore nature and really dive into a
minimalist lifestyle. And of course it was also the middle
(19:51):
of COVID, so that dream of doing that in Spain
wasn't going to happen. So the next best thing was
the RV. So I got an RV, got a truck,
and my gut was saying, get a field recorder, go
(20:12):
follow the resonance, the energy of the space. My intention
was to be able to navigate the energy of home
in any space right And so it led me actually
back to Maine that first summer, so I had gone
back to Texas to be with family for a while
to kind of regroup, and then I drove up to
(20:35):
literally the northern farthest most east point in the country,
and I thought I was going to stay a week,
ended up staying for two months.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
And every day it was literally, Okay, how's my heart.
That's a check in, But then it's what does my
heart want me to do today? Be very simple. Sometimes
we just go check out this trail, go check out that.
And I would always have my guitar in the truck,
(21:06):
in my chair, And one day I found some random
beach and it's rocky. I had to like off road.
I'm the only person out there, and I hear very
loudly just play. So I just kind of set up
things and I start playing, and I'm just in this
state a deep connection to source and nature. And there's
(21:31):
this beautiful thing that happens when you get far enough
away from the collective energy that you feel this clarity
and this piece of just being a human animal on
this planet. Right, And we try to separate ourselves from
the other animals. We're human animals, right. We have a
(21:52):
lot of gifts that they don't have, but reconnecting to
the earth in a way where there's no distraction, there's
no need to do anything. Thing else would be And
in that heart space is where all the gold lies.
It's our seed, right, you're planning seed for a flower.
You give it the proper environment you will grow for us,
(22:15):
listening to the wisdom and instructions in our seed is
how we grow.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
That must have felt so extraordinary, especially processing the ending
of something meaningful to you in the midst of a
global reckoning. To have this space, like very literally, like
to be in such an expansive element, all your cells
(22:47):
kind of follow suit. You know. How did that process
feel for you? And how do you feel that you
emerged from the pendemic?
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Oh wow, it's like a cocoon going into a cocoon,
if you will. Yeah, that travel trailer was my cocoon.
It was a deeply challenging process. Right, I don't even
remember what you asked me earlier, totally like went left
and I'm realizing that now, so you'll have to ask
(23:23):
me to get But that process felt like a deep
shedding of the disguises and masks and the unconscious manipulation disguises. Yeah, Yeah,
there's a song I wrote with India called the Hour
of Love, and it's all about taking an hour each
(23:45):
day for your practice or your prayer, whatever your rituals are.
And at the end we have the refrain be rid
of your disguises again, Be rid of your disguises again,
Be rid of your disguises again, because every day we
have a sense memory with all of these spaces and people,
and we forget, right, we have to forget ourselves to
(24:08):
feel safe or to protect ourselves in those situations, not
realizing that we could reconnect to hope and transform our
situation or rather set the tone in those spaces deeply.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Well, how many years have you been in the RV now?
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Three?
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Wow?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
This is a big question that I know has like
such a multitude of answers, But I will attempt that
experience of being by yourself and also very consciously being
(24:57):
intuitively led about where your next destiny. I just you know,
I can't even imagine how masterful and healing having that
as an addition to the process of everything else right,
because it's like then you are living in intuition and
you're also not being You're not leaking energy in any
(25:20):
way especially from those day to day interactions or you know,
just bumping up against a lot of the fear and
the grief that's present in people right now.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Yeah, So looking back who you were when you stepped
in to right now three years later in this moment,
what are you noticing as some of the greatest gifts
of this experience.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Oh, freedom is the one word answer, but there's so many.
I remember before maybe twenty eighteen, there was a meme
that said I want a life, I don't need a vacation,
(26:07):
and I was like, Oh, that's so great, and then
I see that with that, I was like, what does
that even mean for me? You know, what would that
look like? And I knew that I didn't want to
have as spontaneous a schedule as I did as only
a musician, because I wanted to have children one day
(26:28):
and you know that'll come at some point. But a
large part of that was i'de work an hour or
two each day. I have a lot of time to
connect to nature, have a lot of time to be
with my family and those who I care about, because
(26:48):
I know that I don't need much, but I also
know that I'm happiest when i'm connected to those things.
So the greatest gift is that now I'm closer to
that dream than ever, and I feel more embodied than ever.
I had to face a lot of my own demons
(27:08):
through that process, the ways that I created a partnership
that wasn't resonant with who I am because of all
those masks and disguises. Doing some deep soul healing work
with my family. Of course, we all know those things
start in childhood. Yeah, and to face one of my
greatest fears, which was to be rejected by my family
(27:29):
as maybe one of the as the only individual and
the immediate family who doesn't adhere to the tradition.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
That we were brought up in. Wow.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
So's it's freedom to know that beyond that fear, we
still love each other.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Had a lot of growing.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
Pains and learning how to accept the things that may
or may not ever be.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
What we want.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You know, when you speak about especially the dynamic that
the Christian Church and black family in the Christian Church,
you know the role that that plays, both the deep
importance especially historically, and also some of the ways that
I think collectively were exploring some of the negative aspects
(28:19):
of that and relationships of that. How has as a
black man, how has that? What have you been noticing
with that? I don't necessarily have a question around it,
because I've been observing it myself. And you know, as
someone I didn't grow up in the church, I kind
of grew up with all beliefs, none that were given
(28:42):
to me, but I was always exploring them everywhere. But
you know, I remember when I first started teaching meditation,
it really caught me by surprise how substantial that part
of our belief was is, and how many spaces I
was going into and it was being so rejected, and
(29:05):
how as a teacher I had to really adopt and
study different ways of teaching this so that people didn't
think it was a competitor of God. They understood it
was one and the same. And you know, is often
shared in this work prayers, when you talk to God,
meditation is when you listen for the answers. So to
(29:29):
take up a lifestyle like this in many regards right,
like being out alone in nature right, And so many people,
especially in communities of color, historically haven't always had access
to nature because of you know, laws during segregation that
then led us to thinking that that's not for us,
and so you're you're you're kind of shifting a lot
(29:52):
of things by existing, by being yourself right now in
this moment, and so what are I'm just curious any
thoughts or observations you've had out kind of those polarities
and navigating conversations with people from more of a Christian community.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Yeah, you know, so for a more accurate depiction of
my upbringing, my dad's like a third generation Southern Baptist.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Wow, so's it's thick family.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
My grandfather at a church in New Orleans. My great
grandfather started that church and now I think my cousin's
the lead pastor of that church. So there's a long,
a long history there. And now within the black community
in general, I think there is a lot of different misunderstandings.
(30:55):
I think because there hasn't been a lot of exposure
in those spaces, because we have a lot of trauma
in our community, right and that's where we found safety.
That's where we found ways to connect and transcend mentally
and spiritually. The injustices and the hatred and the murders
and everything that we endured as a community. That was
(31:17):
our anchor. And so we learned through that history that
anything other than may disrupt that feeling of security, and
so my approach now it's one of the reasons that
I use the language of the heart, because I wanted
to find the language that we can agree on. And
(31:37):
when I use words like God or even the divine,
it gets there's a lot of questions, right, So when
I think of hard I'm like, well, we're all off heart,
we all have love. How can we approach this from
a vantage point of connection, right and harmony? But even
(31:58):
still there's those who will be close to that. But
I recognize that it's really about exposure, and I know
that within my community, my family unit, that I've softened
a lot of those rough edges in a way because
(32:18):
as family, even though there were periods where we struggled,
there was still that pure intention of wanting to stay connected,
wanted to be as loving as we knew how, and
learning that unconditional love means showing up to meet people
where they are right, and how we find constancy in
(32:41):
that is grace and compassion. The other thing I wanted
to share about our community and this whole piece with nature,
going back to George Floyd, for me, I had a
deep I think we all had a deep awakening of
sorts around injustice in our country. I had to figure
(33:09):
out how I wanted to approach that topic in a
way that would transform our community while also maintaining who
I am. And one of the intentions around my travel
was to embody us reclaiming our bodies in nature as
(33:31):
grounding as we know it is to see, you know,
if I'm in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest or
by a river or whatever it may be, for us
to reclaim a right as humans, human animals, human species
on this planet out of nature. Because I can tell
you when I told my parents what I was going
to do, they were like, where are you going?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Why? Right? You know.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
Where you're going to the remote places? You know, I've
been way off grid. And but you know, part of
that was healing my own trauma around nature and having
those fears and fixing them. And you had a Resma
Minicum on your show.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yes I did, good brother, Yes, Yes.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Thank you Resma. In order to learn thank you. But
after doing some work through his book Grandma's.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Hands, God, My Grandmother's Hands.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Yes, yeah, like healing some of that trauma around police
and injustice. It shifted my perspective on how to honor
this wow right as a black man out of nature,
not just the stigma we have around going out, but
also culturally the identity that we bear within the stereotype
(34:53):
as black people don't do certain things.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah, yeah, and how.
Speaker 3 (35:00):
Just limiting that can be and misleading you know. So
that was Those are the ways that I approach those things.
But it's still a journey, journey for sure.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
What are some of the things you like to do
when you're alone in nature?
Speaker 3 (35:22):
I'm alone. I will put on a fire if the
weather's great, make a kettle of tea and play guitar.
Or I will write poetry, read are just ground, just ground,
and enjoy it. And of course it's all all of
(35:45):
that is a meditation to me, it's not separate.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
I went through this thing of recognizing all these identities
we attached to right as a black man, as a
man of a certain age, assistant mail and realizing I
kind of bust a lot of those things wide open, right,
And realizing on a fundamental level is human animals. We
(36:12):
are supposed to be connected to nature, and the way
I feel comfortable doing that is by just honoring the pool.
I don't have to overthink it. It doesn't have to
be again this whole life that I don't want to
vacation from.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Right.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
If I'm connected every day, I'm not stressed, I'm not
overworking myself. I'm not stuck in the productivity, capitalistic identity
or pattern. It can be connect to the community in
the mornings and enjoy the day deeply.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Wow. Connecting with nature has been one of the most like,
surprisingly pleasurable, exciting, incredible experiences. I think of my life
and I grew up in La so we have a
beautiful city.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
It's not that I'm far from nature, but it's not
outside of the beach. It's not something like you're going
out of your way to do. But that forest energy,
like that river energy, is crazy. It's just like, Wow.
I had this experience recently. I just shared it on
(37:34):
this last episode. But it's so much funnier than I've
even told it now. But I'm going to tell it
more of a basic way. But I went. I was
visiting Paris a couple weeks ago, and by surprise, I
found this tiny little forest on the outskirts of Paris,
which was like I did not expect that to happen. Yeah,
(37:57):
And the second I walked in it almost felt like
a movie Like it was like, you know, secret garden
or something like you push through this little path and
you open up, you know, the branches, and all of
a sudden, it's like, ha, you know, it's just this
whole ancient forest with moss grown over all of the bark.
And that takes a certain amount of years and decades
(38:19):
to happen, and you know, it's just being able to
I love to like bury my hands and feet and
like the soiler and like especially if I'm somewhere like Sedona,
but having opportunities for me now to be out traveling,
whether for work or pleasure, and find like a beautiful
(38:39):
natural element of that area and almost you know, it
feels as if I my soul longs to pay homage
to the earth in that area and to learn from
it while I'm there. So it's been exquisite getting to
know nature, and for so I think for so many
of us, that is the piece where it's like when
(39:01):
we first think of our practices, it's kind of your
your I'm going to do this, I'm going to do this,
I'm gonna do this. I'm going to do something for
you know, my mind, my spirit, my body. And it's
such a checklist kind of thing that it can be overwhelming,
so it doesn't even feel good for quite a while.
It feels like a chore. But turning your practice into
(39:23):
everything that you just said, which is it's not rigid,
it's flexible. It's based on your intuition, it's based on
the longings of your being for that day, for that moment,
and then getting out and just being at play.
Speaker 3 (39:38):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
We're really simple beings.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
Yeah, and we live in a world that's been complicated.
This The thing that kind of brought me back was
have you read Miracle of Mindfulness? Taking that hon Oh?
That was my first book on meditation. I read very
simple manual. I was inspired by him because he was
(40:07):
a mentor for our Martin Luther King, one of many,
I'm sure, but so I read this book and keeps
it very simple. He's like, when eating an orange, you
should know how to eat an orange. When washing the dishes,
you should know how to wash the dishes. And at
(40:27):
first it was like, I don't get it, what are
you talking about? This is so weird, and he repeats
all of these different daily activities, and then he mentions
this manual that a lot of the monks had, which
is called the Essential Discipline for Daily Use, And they
had all of these little mantras that they would apply
to different daily activities. And one of the ones I
(40:47):
remember well is washing my hands. I hope that every
being has pure hands to receive reality. Yeah, right, right,
And so I went looking for this book, couldn't find
it at the time, so I started writing my own
(41:07):
and I would do that. As I washed my hands,
I would have these intentions or as I brushed my teeth,
little daily things a few moments, right, thirty seconds, whatever
it is, a few breasts, and I realized I developed
a sense memory with these spaces, right, So as I
would make my tea, I would just feel peaceful and
drownded as I washed my hands, and then I would
just kind of stay mostly in the flow throughout the day,
(41:31):
where there wasn't this heavy partition of I need to
spend an hour a day because this week just was
like ruined me. I've been so overwhelmed. But these little
moments of all the things you're going to do anyway
now become a part.
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Of the practice.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
That's mastery. Yeah, Like it's devotional, ritualistic to master something
with ease, with grace, to commit the knowing to your body. Yeah,
and to make it. The word that I keep using
for for what I experience in that way is like pleasurable,
you know, to make it feel good throughout.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
That.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
Yeah, that is that has been the change, the deepening
I think I've been most excited about in my own
life and practice. You know, practicing meditation for quite a while,
but it takes time to get to the places you
need to get to. And it's been in the last
couple of years that it's just felt no matter what
(42:39):
you could be going through, just almost it's just such
a craving to have this spiritual practice. There is no
way I would miss a second of it. I'll move
anything else around in my life to make time for that.
You know, any meeting can be canceled for my meditation
and to hit that point and to really know what
(43:05):
it took to get there. For each of us individually,
when we make it there, whatever that looks like for
each of us, it's just so beautiful, you know, just
such a pride really sets in for what you were
willing to dance with and let go of. Wow.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Yeah, it's so beautiful to hear the stories of others
and when, where and how and their avenue. Even you
describing this little forested area in Paris that was naturally touched.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Oh my god, it's so avid.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Because on one hand, you're in Paris right right, and
then there's this natural area that's just captivating and resonating.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
I was ret force for three hours, you know, like
it was just and I really and there were so
many tiny paths, there was a there was just this
like insane amount of crows filling the forest talking to
each other. And I'm rarely around crows. It was just like,
(44:12):
oh god, it was so good.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so it's funny, right, Yes,
that's that's the thing for me. I had this awakening
in twenty twenty one, this moment, like a third eye thing,
and I went out on this walk, long walk, like
ten miles, and the birds. It was like I could
(44:40):
hear the birds. It was like I've lived my whole life,
but I haven't heard the birds. They really taken in
their unique song, their essence, their brightness, They're brilliant and
feeling it like letting it move you. And it was
the most beautiful thing. And so it joy. Now just
(45:00):
to hear bird songs, I laugh and I'm taken because
I feel like I understand something about them that I
never had access to.
Speaker 1 (45:13):
Oh God, to be alive, be alive, to be awakened,
what a joy, what a gift to witness it all
a soul cultural I think as my final question on
(45:33):
this episode, I would like to ask you if you
could share some soul work with us. Is there a
prompt that you can leave with our audience for self awareness,
for reflection, something to meditate to, to savor throughout today?
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Hm, there is this size this year with my community
over the weekend. It's really simple and it's you know,
you think average lifespan about eighty years. Subtract whatever your
age is, right, and now'll think of your favorite season
(46:20):
you have that many of those seasons left?
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Right?
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I feel like years for some reason goes over our head.
But if you think of your favorite season and the
scarcity of that season, something turns on.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
And now.
Speaker 3 (46:36):
It's very simple, right, So just close your eyes, breathing
into the heart space and simply as the heart, what
does it want those seasons to be? What is it
(47:00):
want them to look like? I feel like? And then
(47:21):
once that vision arises, simply set the intention to honor
the vision of your heart. And another breath, simply returning
(47:45):
to the room.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
Thank you, m welcome, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
How can everyone get connected to you?
Speaker 2 (47:59):
That's the.
Speaker 3 (48:02):
On all the social media, the Soul Cultural and a
soul Cultural dot com.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
And rise journal and Amazon Primeate. Yes, Joel, thank you
so much for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
We'll be back next week, no mistay. Connect with me
on social at Debbie Brown that's Twitter and Instagram, or
you can go to my website Debbie Brown dot com.
And if you're listening to the show on Apple Podcasts,
don't forget. Please rate, review, and subscribe and send this
(48:39):
episode to a friend. Deeply Well is a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network. It's produced by Jacqueis Thomas,
Samantha Timmins and me Debbie Brown. The beautiful Soundback You
Heard That's by Jarrelen Glass from Crystal Cadence. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Wherever you listen
(49:01):
to your favorite shows,
Host
Devi Brown
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