April 24, 2025 • 49 mins
In this powerful episode, Devi is joined by mental health advocate and thought leader Ann Russo for a conversation that speaks directly to the hearts of those healing from religious trauma. Ann brings deep wisdom and compassion as we explore what it means to reclaim your agency after experiencing harm in spiritual or religious spaces.
Together, they dive into the often-unspoken complexities of religious trauma — how it impacts identity, self-worth, and the connection to something greater. Ann shares her groundbreaking Religious Trauma Treatment Model, offering a path toward healing that honors both faith and authenticity, especially for those in the queer community who have felt excluded or erased.
“What is the definition of religious trauma?
If you think of PTSD, know where depression, anxiety, difficult functioning, challenges in relationships, you're just, overall, something has impacted you that is making life harder to live in a sense. And in this situation, we're talking about religion, and sometimes with PTSD, we can think of it as like a one-time event. I was in a car accident. I'm afraid to be in a car.
But with religious trauma, especially if you're raised in the church, you're going through these events over and over and over. So it becomes very, very complex. It impacts how you view yourself in relation to creation, deity, faith systems, scriptures, and how you navigate the world in these communities.”
This conversation is a reminder that true healing requires safe spaces, cultural competence, and deep humility from those who hold space for others. Whether you’ve personally experienced spiritual harm or are simply seeking to understand and support others on their journey, this episode invites you into a space of empathy, restoration, and radical self-reclamation.
Connect @DeviBrown @DeeplyWellPod
Learn More AnnRusso.org
“Living in Wisdom” Now Available: DeviBrown.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Keeps to the planet.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
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Speaker 3 (00:58):
Take a deep in through your nose. Holds it now,
Release slowly again, deep in halle hold release, repeating internally
(01:33):
to yourself as you connect to my voice. I am
deeply deeply Well. I am deeply well, I am deeply wow.
(02:00):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.
(02:22):
This is where we heal, this is where we become.
Welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I'm
your host, of course, Debbie Brown. And today we are
diving into a conversation that I feel so many people
are really ready to have and so many more deeply
(02:43):
need to hear. We're exploring the path to healing from
religious trauma, reclaiming our agency, and expanding how we think
about identity, relationships and mental health. Joining us today is
a very special guest, and Russo. And Russo, LCSWMA and
(03:05):
Theology is a mental health advocate, a therapist, and thought
leader specializing and healing religious trauma, sexual empowerment, ethical non monogamy,
queer identity, and inclusivity in mental health. With over two
decades of experience, she combines professional expertise and lived experience
(03:27):
to inspire transformation and foster meaningful conversations about often stigmatized topics.
Anne is currently writing her first book, under contract with Pessi,
which introduces the Religious Trauma Treatment Model RTTM. She is
also the founder and clinical director of AMR Therapy, a
(03:47):
boutique mental health practice serving clients with a focus on
culturally competent, accessible care for marginalized communities. Woof, thank you,
welcome to this show.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And oh thank you Devy. I'm so happy to be
here today.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
What a special work, what a powerful work, what a
hard work.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
And I can't imagine doing anything else.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, my god, you know the first
question that comes to mind. And actually I'll share kind
of a little bit of a random story. First. I
was in a friend's studio session last year and he
and I were in this deep conversation about the religious
trauma that he experienced, but he didn't quite have the
(04:31):
language to call it that. It was kind of like
just this feeling that this forced belief was unhealthy to
his childhood and the groups of people he had to
be around for his parents' belief was unhealthy for his childhood.
And I remember we go to walk in the studio
and we're kind of tying this conversation up right, like,
you know, you're about to walk into a room other
(04:53):
people are there. So I as we opened the door,
I looked at him and I said, well, you know,
religious trauma is a real thing. And everyone in the
room stopped making music and looked up and had never
heard that term before. But every single person in the room.
(05:14):
It turned into, you know, another hour of conversation. Everyone's saying, Yo,
what did you just say that? Yes, the church hurt me,
and it was just it was a It was a
really powerful, profound moment for me to kind of bear
witness to as someone that was not raised at all
with any religion or belief, but just knowing that any
(05:37):
kind of forced belief, any dogma, any institutionalized institutionalizing of
really anything, there can be so much pain and conflict
and harm in sometimes. So I'm so excited to talk
to you about this because this is something that is
just so incredibly real for life hundreds of millions of people. Yes, Yes,
(06:06):
And I think where I'd love to start is how
did this call find you? How did you know this
was your work?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So, like you, I wasn't raised in faith. I actually
was raised with the view that faith or religion was
more negative than positive. I was raised by in a
queer household in the eighties and the nineties, so in
that time, it was very much if you're a person
of faith, that feels like you're a person against my family.
(06:38):
So I didn't have the baggage being in a church, right,
but I knew that, well, why do these people not
like my family? So I always just had that in
the back of my mind, you know. And we were
raised in a I lived in an area where there
were a lot of people practicing. They were Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons,
(07:01):
a lot of Christians, Catholics, very very heavily concentrated more
a Christian faith, And I was just so curious about it.
But I didn't really have the tools to learn about
it or understand it. But I always knew that deep down,
my dream, my hope was somehow to bring people together
(07:23):
that didn't understand each other. I didn't know what that
would look like. I thought it would look like being
the president. If I'm going to be very honest with you, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I mean that we need a little help in that area,
but maybe don't lose that mission.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah. From like first grade on, I'm like I want
to help people, and I'm going to be the president,
you know. But this was always in the back of
my mind. And then when I was eighteen, I met
members of a church out at a coffee shop and
they were evangelizing and it sounded very interesting to me.
And truth be told, one of the members of the
(07:59):
church I instantaneously had a connection with, like she and
I just connected very deeply. And so I'm like, well,
this is my perfect opportunity to go to this church
and like learn right. And what I ended up learning
was there was a lot of rules and how to
participate in faith and being a queer person myself, my
(08:25):
identity didn't line up with what it what it would
mean to be a faith and that was very, very difficult.
So I studied, studied, studied, I went and I went
on a missions trip. I went to an ex gay ministry.
I was just studying the Bible. I went and got
a bachelors in Southeast Asian religion. I get my master's
(08:48):
in theology. I was just enveloped myself in religious communities
to understand.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
The the thing here is I was not ever feeling
like I was wrong, and I think that's important, Like
people that are raised in faith often feel like they're
wrong with a queer identity or many identities, they can
do it that way. So because I didn't have that,
I could go into it almost emotion free. I didn't
(09:19):
have a fear of hell or punishment. I just want
to know, why do you believe this right and it?
And by doing that work, I gained an empathy and
compassion and understanding for folks that held those beliefs that
were very high control religion what I call it. So
I'm really dedicated, I would say, my twenties and thirties
(09:44):
into helping the queer community understand that faith and sexual
orientation didn't have to be separate, because it felt like
these two things are not allowed to intersect. So I
feel like queer people that were Christian were really put
in a situation where they had to reject the faith
(10:05):
because it felt like the faith was rejected them. That
is deeply, deeply painful.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Yeah, yeah, just as kind of a baseline understanding for
everyone listening. What is the definite definition of religious trauma?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
When so, if you think of PTSD, you know where depression, anxiety,
difficult functioning challenges and relationship you're just overall, something has
impacted you that's making life harder to live in a sense.
And in this situation, we're talking about religion. And sometimes
(10:41):
with PTSD, we can think of it as like a
one time event. Yeah, I was in a car accident.
I'm afraid to be in a car, right. But with
religious trauma, especially if you're raised in the church, going
through these events over and over, so it becomes very
very complex. Yeah, So it impacts the way that you
(11:01):
view yourself in relation to creation, viity, faith systems, scriptures,
and how you navigate the world in these.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
My goodness, And it's just like the insidious nature of that,
you know, like when you really think of how that
gets into the fiber of your being and how much
that can like truly disconnect you from your human experience.
And you know, just speaking for my belief and I
believe God and I live in co creation with God.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It's like.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
What a heinous act to take away someone's ability to
connect to God because they're equating that with what is
wrong or bad about them. Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
And you know, Debbie, when I focused so much on
the queer community, I didn't think about the level of
impact with others. Other communities. And it was maybe about
five or six years ago that I start really looking
at that and I'm like, Okay, well, this is the
female experience in high control religion and what that looks like.
(12:09):
What does it look like when it comes to sexuality
or just sexuality in general, no matter what orientation a
person is or the ideas of how you're supposed to pray,
and if you don't do that a certain way, then
you're wrong or stigmatized, and just the various ways that
(12:30):
trauma from religion can show up. And then in doing
that work, I realized other therapists aren't trained in this.
They just don't know. But like you said right at
the beginning of our conversation, when I'm talking about doing this,
I'll get emails from my marketing person and thanks for
(12:50):
talking about this. You know, when I was growing up,
I went to Catholic school and this so it's like, yeah,
everybody I have really yet to meet a person who
has not experien is some type of religious trauma, whether
it's directly impact in them or someone they know that
then impacted them. It's pervasive.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Can you can you say a little bit more about
a term you used a moment ago high control religion?
What is that?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Thank you for asking me, you know, because because because
I feel like we have to be so cautious, right
because different religious groups they do work for some people
perfectly fine, So like something that may not work for
me may work for you. And I don't like to say, well,
conservative Christian, I don't like to do that because I
(13:40):
don't think that that's very very fair and loving honestly.
So when I'm speaking of high control, it's really the
religious group that tells you basically how to live, how
to think, how to pray, how to have your faith
in black and white, and just very strict structure with
(14:02):
little you can't really distance yourself or have any of
your own identity within that h And it can be
something as simple as wearing a pair of pants. You're
out of line with God because you're wearing a pair
of pants as a female right now. That can create
a trauma.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, God, it's so I mean, God, there's just so many,
so many paths right within this conversation. And God, it's
just so so so complex to really think about, you know.
Within I was a part of this this really awesome
documentary put together by my friend Teddy called God Talk,
(14:45):
and it illuminated me to a lot of things I
think I had heard about, but I didn't get to
have direct understanding of as someone that didn't grow up
in a church in that way. And something that seemed
to be this this really basic thread was and this
is specifically in like Black Christian and Baptist churches in
(15:06):
the context of these stories, but one the high amount
of sexual abuse at the hands of the pastor. And
like one of the stories that was told in that
film was of a young boy needing to go confess
to his pastor something and then the pastor kept asking
him specific questions that were very like gross and out
(15:28):
of line. And when the little boy stood up, he
could see that the pastor was doing things with his
body under the desk while he's talking. And you're just like,
like what that does to a child's brain forever? Right,
And then in the instances of a pastor actually you know,
(15:49):
harming a child or you know, there are a lot
of stories have come out recently of just the shaming
of women and the shaming of sexuality, the shit you
mean of pregnancy and you know, a young girl finding
herself pregnant not by choice, and then having to stand
up in front of the church hundreds of people and
be shamed and apologize for who she is and being
(16:12):
told you're not allowed to have a baby shower, no
one will give her gifts for this child, and you're
just like Jesus, it breaks my heart.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yeah, it truly does break my heart. And that is
one of what you're talking about, that shame, and that
shame is such an foundational issue when it comes to
the religious trauma. Is it's not it's past, like Brene
Brown says, You know, shame is not as goes to
the heart of like you are wrong, not I did
(16:46):
something wrong. I mean they're right, you as you exist
are wrong. And the level of pain and that and
and and they're saying it in the name of of God.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. That just the highest stakes there is,
you know, like when you're thinking about your soul, yes deeply. Well,
(17:20):
you're writing your new book right now, which I'm so
excited about. My God, have we needed like a comprehensive
body of work that speaks to.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
This thank you, thank you. I'm you know, it's so funny.
I have to tell you because when PESSI approached me
to write a book. They had actually seen a social
media post that I did. I didn't even believe it
was them at first. I'm like, PESSI. But when they
reached out, you know, they're like, we want to know
if you can write a book about just trauma in general,
(17:48):
sexual empowerment, you know, the basically the pillars of which
I specialize in. And they asked for a chapter, and
I wrote a chapter on female sexual empowerment with the
confines of the church, specifically the outgrowth of Catholicism to
Christianity and the impact on women. And I submitted that
(18:10):
chapter and they said, we actually want you to write
an entire book on religious trauma.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Wow, because there.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Isn't anything like that out there, they said, And there's
not a lot of training for therapists in this area,
and like we're talking about, it is so pervasive, right.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah, yeah, you know with this model, you're introducing a
religious trauma treatment model. Can you share what that is
and just kind of what inspired you to develop this
framework and how it's helping.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yes, So I've been doing this work with clients for
a very long time, and I've been doing this work
personally since you know eighteen on some level, right, So
I was just thinking, how do I work with my clients?
What do I do? And what I realized is, wait
a minute, and this is actually a model of work
(19:03):
like this. It's taking therapy modalities that already are evidence based.
And I think that that's a very important clarification. We're
using evidence based work, and then we're taking that and
we're inserting that into a model that deals with things
like existential crises. We're looking at wow, yeah, and we're
(19:24):
looking at you know, you know, faith, We're looking at
the reactions of bodies. So we're looking at CBT, DBT,
we're looking at somatic work, narrative work, and then time
that all into religion. And the thing that makes this
a little bit more unique is that we're not saying
(19:46):
in the model, don't be faithful or don't have your
faith anymore. So there's a big component of this that
is helping an individual learn how to continue to have faith. Wow.
And that is a tricky part now, wow, because I
feel like we I feel like it to say, well,
I'm gonna throw this all away. You know, I have
(20:09):
significant anxiety and OCD around sexuality because of my faith well,
don't have your faith anymore. Well, no, that's that's really
not going to work for the majority of people. So
how do you reclaim your faith through this model of
therapy work?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Oh my god? Oh wow? Wow? Like what Like, I'm
just that's landing in me, because yeah, sometimes, like when
when life is so challenging, as it is for so
many of us, like that is the piece that you
don't even know you're chasing, like an ability to have
(20:47):
faith in anything. Yes, you know, but sometimes it does
feel like the possibility of even trusting God again or
having faith in God again seems so far and so hard,
and it's like that relationship can just be so elusive
when you have had these compounded, complex types of traumas
(21:11):
within and without belief, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, and especially when you're coming out of that high
control environment. Yeah, and your family is in that environment, right,
your neighborhood group, your culture group, everyone is in this church.
So it's beyond even just shifting your theological belief. It's like, now,
how do I embody this way of believing while everyone
(21:38):
else is still believing this? Or am I being pushed
to believe this? Will I lose my community? I mean
there's so many layers here of I mean, we're looking
at a very complex system of human existence.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I mean really, yeah, I mean you have to also yeah, wow,
like you have to completely reprogram even what you're understanding
of community is. And so many people lose theirs in
in this kind of reclamation of their own freedom and self.
It's like so often we hear stories of you have
(22:12):
to choose, and you're the entirety of your family, the
entirety of your neighborhood. Now you're just on the outs
and you've lost everything.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
And I saw, you know, especially within the queer community.
What I what I noticed was an outright It's called
the term that people use is christ of phobia, but
it's like you literally feel when when people say they're
Christian or and and that was something that I experienced,
(22:46):
and I, if I'm being perfectly honest, I still experience
because it was a trauma for me. It was it
was a trigger. So it's like I hear that and
immediately I go, this person's going to hate me. All
this people are going to me because it was just
so ingrained, right, So what ends up happening is that
(23:07):
you push so far away from the idea of faith
or you almost turn it into some kind of joke
or something silly or ridiculous. But at the heart of
that for many is pain.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah yeah, yeah, how is that process? You know a
lot of your work is really in service to reclaiming agency, Yeah,
you know, personal agency, and you know if someone has
been harmed in those specific ways. How do you even
begin to heal shame around your sexuality?
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Great question, and it very much is dependent on where
the person is because everyone is very, very different. And
I in the book, I have a lot of vignettes
of people at different stages and even different faiths trying
to maneuver some of this. But one of the main
things that I want to look at as I need
to understand their value system. Right, like people generally, we're
(24:07):
all living in this very complicated world and most of
us are really just trying to survive. And it's incredible
how many of us don't really have the time to
even stop and say, what do I believe? What do
I value? What do I want my life to look like?
(24:30):
And we don't we don't really have these conversations. So
first I just want someone to understand those pieces. Now,
if there's someone within a faith community, I'd like to Okay, well,
what's the values that you're receiving out of this faith community? Okay,
what's your value? And then I will especially around like
(24:51):
the Abrahamic faith with some with im pretty knowledgeable bull out,
I'll pull in some scripture scripture as well, you know,
like for example, a client it's coming out of a
high control Christian group, I'll say, let's talk about what
is Jesus? And let's talk about what is your particular church,
(25:14):
and let's see what lines up and doesn't line up?
And how does that feel flower right? And so it's
and it's it is, it's extensive. Wow, it's very difficult work.
So when a person is even like you know, I've
had clients that it's taken years to leave a church
and it's and that happens when they realize that they're
(25:38):
so madically not doing well and it's almost like they're
living two identities and it becomes difficult. They're not integrated.
So the way I speak to them is how can
we integrate? How can we integrate you? Because this how
could you can't live disassociating from yourself because even that
(25:58):
is going to harm your relationlationship with the divine. Yeah,
you know, but it's slow. Yeah, can you talk about that?
You know, what what is it to integrate? What does
that word mean in this kind of a context, and
like what is actually happening inside? So speaking specifically to
(26:20):
a queer person, Yeah, So if you're told that your
sexual orientation is wrong, right, and you are wrong, and
then you are in fact this identity. You can't change
your identity. You cannot change who you are. But I
would make the argument that as a person of faith,
(26:41):
that's not necessarily something you can change either. It may
not be that that particular model, but a person of faith,
I feel like that is equally as part of your identity.
So what we're trying to do is say, how can
you be a person of faith and a person in
(27:01):
a harmonious way, not in a way that's yeah at
odds at odds with each other where it's like, well,
I go to church and I feel bad about who
I am. I second guess my sexuality or how to
act on my sexuality, or I'm constantly obsessed about my
sexuality because I'm being told that it's wrong. How do
you open yourself up to have a real relationship with
(27:23):
the divine if you're in constant turmoil and struggle just
because you exist as you exist.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
You know, it's so a thought is coming up for me.
You know, it's so interesting because it's like God predates
the Bible's existence, right, Faith predates the Bible's existence. Yet
so often when we hear about these kind of conflicting
ways of being able to live within faith, it's because
it is in contrast of the Bible specifically, not that
(27:56):
it's in contrast of God, not that it's in contrast
of belief or faith or trust. It is in contrast
to certain things very often taken out of context or
kind of exaggerated in the Bible. And I don't know
if I even have an end to that thought, but
that's someone that's something that came through while you were
(28:18):
saying that, because it's like, yeah, faith and belief in God,
I find a lot of beauty and things that are
written in the Bible, and my relationship to God exists
with or without my connection to the Bible.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
I love that you're saying that because my largest study
in the theology was first century Christianity and trying and
understanding how did this book come to be.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Oh the floors you are, let's go.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Right, So I see the book. The Bible is a
multitude of books that came from different areas and in
the Roman Empire, and it was a group of people
decided these are the stories that are going to go
in this book, and we're creating a very specific narrative.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Now, not every book that is in there is the
oldest or the most primary source. So when I look
at the Bible, I go, Okay, this is a book
of humans trying to understand God at its best incarnation.
I'll put it like that. I can see it as
(29:34):
like it's political, it's it's I can see it as
many different ways negatively, but I'm going to choose to
say this is just us learning.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
So It's like it's not so much that following word
for word for word how we're interpreting things today and
the translation of today, but it's more about what is
the overall message that we're trying to understand from this
book and how than just being myself, how does this
(30:09):
relate or correlate with what messages I'm seeing in other
faith groups?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Right?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
And there are many things that overlap and and I'm
sure you've heard this, and you I'm sure you live this.
Love is the defining factor of all of this, absolutely, right, absolutely,
We're not going to get anywhere yelling Bible versus at
each other like you know. So it's like I'm not
going to do that. I'm not going to try to
disprove someone's faith because while historically speaking, this didn't happen
(30:39):
to No, that's your faith, It's beautiful, it's great. Let's
talk about love.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yeah, yeah, are you showing up in love?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Are you? If we look at who we understand Jesus
to be yes, Okay, do we understand Jesus to be.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Right?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
I mean, really, Jesus is with the marginalized, the hurting.
Jesus is all love. He he is throwing away these rules.
I mean, it's and Jesus.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Is the epitome of mastery of self, mastery of integrity
of love. Yes, and it is always shocking to me. Well,
it also just proves so many people wear it as
a cloak right, or wear you know, belief really just
as the thing to fit in. But they aren't doing
their own study, or they aren't in their own relationship
(31:32):
with God or with faith because so many people know
the name of Jesus but refuse to live the tenets
of Christ.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Absolutely, And it's just it's like, yeah, sorry, I'm just
like you're right though, because you know, it's I had
a great conversation with a couple of professors the other
day because, you know, nerding out on this, and we
were talking about, well, how did this happen? Well, it
happens because you have the church fathers from the first
century deciding what it means to be a Christian because
(32:04):
when Jesus dies, there's nothing there. Who was this person?
What happened? What do we do with this message? So
now you have human beings trying to build a religion,
and it was built in different ways across the Roman
Empire by different groups of people, and then it was
solidified into one Catholic Church not until three hundred and
(32:30):
twenty AD under a Constantine the Empire. Right, So that's
when you now get this solidified faith, and that's when
ideas about what does it mean to have free will,
what does the trinity mean? These are being decided by
people three hundred years later. So that's why I feel
(32:51):
like this is people trying to understand God, trying to
understand the faith right, but it's fascinating, But like jes
what do we know about Jesus when you're looking at
sourcing around that time love but the church fathers and
coming out of Constantine sexuality, women viewed so negatively and
(33:14):
it was used to marginalize and harm people in the
name of Jesus. And that's why we have what we
have today is a faith that for some is used
just to do that, even though it's the antithesis of
how we understand Jesus to be. So it's like Jesus
Versus high control. Christianity deeply well.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
In all the kind of ways that your work and
your curiosity and your lived experience kind of come together
and intersect. What are some of the biggest kind of
gaps you see especially in mental health care because I
think there is religious trauma, and then there also is
therapies trauma. You know, people like kind of going and
(34:01):
seeking therapists to reconcile, to integrate, and therapists sometimes being
very misaligned with someone's identity or the way to truly
be able to help them. What are some of the
gaps you see in mental health care when it comes
to supporting queer individuals and how can therapists really create
truly affirming spaces.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
First, we all need to have humility because sometimes we
really don't know what we don't know. And I will
see therapists that we'll say I can work with queer
couples because I work with straight couples. It's different. It
(34:48):
is different, you know. But when we were in school,
our profession really teaches that you can work with anybody.
We call for cultural competence. Okay, teach, We're taught you
can work with anyone. But cultural competence is really important.
And I think that's because there is not enough mental
(35:08):
health workers to support the population. But in my practice,
I lean very much into if you do not really
specialize in a disorder or a group of people, don't
do it, Wow, just don't do it. So I see
the gaps everywhere, but I think we don't fill in
(35:29):
the gaps necessarily by trying to learn everything. We fill
in the gaps by saying, hey, let me professionally network
with people that are different than me. So I have
a place for clients that are coming to me that
I cannot really work with or I don't have the
skill set to work with because I know that Dev
does have the skill set to work with these people
(35:50):
and they're going to get good care with DEVI that's
that is the gap filling. Truly, I'm so glad you
said that. And I think like that is such that
is its own kind of episode.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
This this understanding of like humility within expertise. You know,
it's like and that is not That's what really needs
to come online in the world a lot more. And
I think we've been in this culture which is look
at me, look at me, look at me, especially from
an expert standpoint. I mean, we definitely see that within
the influencer culture and the girl boss culture and the
(36:29):
online culture, but also with an expertise, it's like everyone
wants to just say I'm the top, I'm this, I'm
the and it's like true expertise is what you said.
It's knowing when when you have specialized in something or
given a lot of particular thought and study to particular
(36:49):
things that you're called to do, and passing the baton
when you can't do that.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yes, and you know, I'm so cautious to like getting
my sage out there. People want to say, Okay, well,
you are an expert in this, and as you've just
said the word specialty, I say, I never ever actually
want to say expert because I don't believe an expert exists.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I just don't.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I believe that there's people that specialize in things. They've
spent their life working on something, they have a great
deal of knowledge and can teach others. But an expert
is like God level, and that just does not exist.
Then that's why I think we need to continue with
that humility, because there's always room to learn and to
grow and to discover.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah, God, And with each generation, everything changes, yes, is
that kind of the time?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Everything changes exactly, Like working with you know, queer folks
twenty years ago is not what it is now. I
have to I have to learn so much at one time,
you know, And at thirty I was an expert in this. Yeah,
now I'm novice because the experience of people in their
twenties looks really different, you know, So that learning is continuing.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Oh my God. And to that point too, you know something,
I think within that context and also just within other systems,
it's like the trauma of that even right of like
what it must have been like like if you're someone
who's part of the Silent generation or the Boomer generation
and you're queer, and what you're navigating and you're healing
may be completely different than someone who has different kinds
(38:26):
of freedoms and visibility who's queer in Gen Z or
maybe queer within the Alpha generation. It's there are going
to be different pain points that you might be navigating
with different groups.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Oh my gosh, I remember twenty years ago when I
started to think of what word do I want to use, LGBTQ, queer,
What do I want to say? And I use the
word queer, and I had quite a bit of backlash
from people that were in older generation. So that word
was hurt to That word was used to harm us.
(38:59):
It's hard triggering, right. But now we're in a space,
and we've been in a space probably for at least
a decade now where that word is taken back and
we're empowered by that word. But twenty years ago that
word was harmful. Yeah. So I mean, to your.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Points has so much sense and the beauty of that
nuance of being able. I think as multiple generations live
at the same time, to hold space for that nuance
in each of our individualized experiences.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yes, and just have empathy and compassion. And I think
we get caught in our echo chambers sometimes and it's
really important to and I know I keep saying the
word humble, our humble, but really like to humble ourselves
and be around people that have really different experiences than us.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Yeah. Yeah, humble is one of my favorite words of
all time. I did a three part series on this
podcast on human this year. So when I say you
are like speaking my language, because everyone gets that word wrong.
I think in today's day and age, that is about
boisterousness and it's about self aggrandizing and visibility. It's like people,
(40:15):
I think have such a misinterpreted understanding of what the
word humility is. Like the path of Christ is the
path of humility and mastery, right like, and everyone thinks human, well,
I'm not going to be quiet or no, I'm I'm
great and everyone's gonna know I'm great, and I'm like,
that's that's not what being humble is. It doesn't mean
(40:37):
be small, be minimized, being visible exactly. Humble is power, yes,
Like it is a quiet power that can fill a room, yes,
and help a room. You know, I think humble rest
and service, yes, and curiosity and empathy yes, exactly. Thank you.
(41:00):
This episode is just yeah, special and important. You know,
I think before I could talk to you all day
and week and month. But you know, with your with
your new book on the Horizon and your work and
mental health advocacy growing, what is your ultimate hope for
how this field is able to evolve in in addressing
(41:21):
excuse me, religious trauma and inclusivity.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Even though my book is religious trauma, I want to
speak specifically to inclusivity because that to me is as everything,
that's the umbrella of everything. Inclusivity. We need more people
in this field that are different.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
I mean honestly, like we just.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
We We need folks from all backgrounds and all religions
and all identities and life experiences to have access to
the type of training first off, that is beneficial for
as many communities as possible. There's a lot that I
could break down there in itself, but I'll say that
(42:12):
like evolving, The training evolves as more voices are involved
in what that training looks like, and then more communities
have access to care that's going to make sense for them.
So everything is about inclusivity. So my work does focus
on religion and focus on sexual empowerment, even nominogamy, things
(42:34):
that people sometimes tense up, even therapists tends up to
talk about. You know, I'm doing trainings on you know,
how sex work can be empowering for some people in
mental health, Like I am very very into what therapists
themselves might feel a little uncomfortable with and just tearing
(42:54):
those walls down and educating and advocating and every every person,
no matter who they are, feels like they have a
safe space to go and be themselves and grow and
be the best versions of themselves in a very challenging world.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
In a very challenging world. Yeah wow, And I'm sure
you know, I think a lot of what you were
saying too is like continued education and curiosity for those
that are already a part of that of that world
and that network, because everything is always changing. Like it's
just it's so easy to get stuck in one way
(43:31):
of doing things, maybe with clients or within your network
of you know, therapist or.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Doctors, And I think it's important to push back, to advocate,
to learn, you know it. I feel like like you're saying,
like you can get stuck in certain ideas, and I'm
a big believer in like learning as much as you
possibly can about something, you know, So it's and looking
(43:58):
at standards of care. Now, granted, this probably wouldn't fly
so great with my board, but I often look and say,
all right, there's this rule here, but my value system.
My supervisor loved this is what I was in this.
I said, my value system does not align with this.
I said, this rule is going to change one day,
(44:22):
but my value system and love and care is not.
How do we shift this rule?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
You know?
Speaker 1 (44:30):
So it's like I believe we do have to fight
back at these systems, even the systems that are here
to help and support, there's still parts of that that
we have to fight back. Yeah, and say, how do
we change this for a changing world where there are
more voices involved in this?
Speaker 3 (44:49):
Yeah, thank you so much. At the end of every episode,
I like to invite our guests to provide some soul
work for the audience, which can be really anything that
allows those listening to integrate even further into the conversation
they just heard and witnessed. So sometimes that looks like
a journal prompt or a somatic practice, a thought starter,
(45:12):
a prayer, a meditation, absolutely anything goes.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I know just what to say everyone out there, a
lot of us are experiencing anxiety right now, and stress
and cortisol creates more stress. That's going off the hook
for some of us. What I'd like you to be
able to do is just when you find yourself experiencing stress,
try to open up your chest and breathe. Because oftentimes
(45:44):
when we do feel stressed or anxiety, our instinctual reaction
is to come in like this, which actually makes the
stress and anxiety worse. So next time you're experiencing that,
try to make a practice of knowing what you what's
going on with your body in moments of stress and anxiety,
and just try opening up your chest and just taking
(46:06):
some breath and just grounding yourself and taking thirty seconds
to just be there in your body, check in with
your systems, and you know, for my clients, I'll say
try that two or three times a day. Put an
alarm on your phone. We need ground yourself in your
body a couple of times a day. We're one system
(46:29):
where we have to be connected the whole thing, the
whole thing right, and sometimes we're so disgnctou from our
bodies that were so anxious that we're not connecting and
helpful ways.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
And that's the piece that changes your life. Yeah, like that,
that's the piece that allows you to change your choices, Yes,
which changes your life absolutely. Oh my gosh, I just
I cannot wait for your book to come out.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
This is going to be just I think, such a
game changer for so many people and for everyone. I
want to It's coming out next year, but I want
to put it on everyone's radar. The book is called
Religious Trauma Treatment Model, Religious Trauma Treatment Ma dol definitely
write this down. Journal this Yeah, my website. You can
subscribe there and I'll give updates of when the book's
(47:18):
coming out as well. And if you scroll down into
the show notes of this episode, either on YouTube or
Apple or Spotify wherever you're listening from right now, you'll
be able to click directly into Anne's website and click
into every single way that you can possibly contact or
enjoy her work. Debbie, thank you so much for joining
(47:39):
us today.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Such a pleasure, such a soulful conversation.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Thank you, and Russo, I can't wait to get the book.
Thank you. Thank you for listening to everyone. We will
be back next week now Mistayday. The content presented on
Deeply Well serve solely for educational and informational purposes. It
should not be considered a replacement for personalized medical or
(48:05):
mental health guidance and does not constitute a provider patient relationship.
As always, it is advisable to consult with your healthcare
provider or health team or any specific concerns or questions
that you may have. Connect with me on social at
Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or you can go
(48:26):
to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're
listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review,
and subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Deeply
Well is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network.
It's produced by Jaquess Thomas, Samantha Timmos, and me Debbie Brown.
(48:46):
The Beautiful Soundback You Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from
Crystal Cadence. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio
app or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Keeps to the planet.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'll go by the name of Charlamagne of God. And
guess what, I can't wait to see y'all at the
third annual Black Effect Podcast Festival. That's right, We're coming
back to Atlanta, Georgia, Saturday, April twenty six at Poeman
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(00:23):
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We're bringing the Black Effect marketplace with black owned businesses
plus the food truck court to keep you fed while
you visit us. All right, listen, you don't want to
miss this. Tap in and grab your tickets now at
Black Effect dot Com Flash Podcast Festival.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Take a deep in through your nose. Holds it now,
Release slowly again, deep in halle hold release, repeating internally
(01:33):
to yourself as you connect to my voice. I am
deeply deeply Well. I am deeply well, I am deeply wow.
(02:00):
I'm Debbie Brown and this is the Deeply Well Podcast.
Welcome to Deeply Well, a soft place to land on
your journey. A podcast for those that are curious, creative,
and ready to expand in higher consciousness and self care.
(02:22):
This is where we heal, this is where we become.
Welcome to the show. Thank you for being here. I'm
your host, of course, Debbie Brown. And today we are
diving into a conversation that I feel so many people
are really ready to have and so many more deeply
(02:43):
need to hear. We're exploring the path to healing from
religious trauma, reclaiming our agency, and expanding how we think
about identity, relationships and mental health. Joining us today is
a very special guest, and Russo. And Russo, LCSWMA and
(03:05):
Theology is a mental health advocate, a therapist, and thought
leader specializing and healing religious trauma, sexual empowerment, ethical non monogamy,
queer identity, and inclusivity in mental health. With over two
decades of experience, she combines professional expertise and lived experience
(03:27):
to inspire transformation and foster meaningful conversations about often stigmatized topics.
Anne is currently writing her first book, under contract with Pessi,
which introduces the Religious Trauma Treatment Model RTTM. She is
also the founder and clinical director of AMR Therapy, a
(03:47):
boutique mental health practice serving clients with a focus on
culturally competent, accessible care for marginalized communities. Woof, thank you,
welcome to this show.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
And oh thank you Devy. I'm so happy to be
here today.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
What a special work, what a powerful work, what a
hard work.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
And I can't imagine doing anything else.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, my god, you know the first
question that comes to mind. And actually I'll share kind
of a little bit of a random story. First. I
was in a friend's studio session last year and he
and I were in this deep conversation about the religious
trauma that he experienced, but he didn't quite have the
(04:31):
language to call it that. It was kind of like
just this feeling that this forced belief was unhealthy to
his childhood and the groups of people he had to
be around for his parents' belief was unhealthy for his childhood.
And I remember we go to walk in the studio
and we're kind of tying this conversation up right, like,
you know, you're about to walk into a room other
(04:53):
people are there. So I as we opened the door,
I looked at him and I said, well, you know,
religious trauma is a real thing. And everyone in the
room stopped making music and looked up and had never
heard that term before. But every single person in the room.
(05:14):
It turned into, you know, another hour of conversation. Everyone's saying, Yo,
what did you just say that? Yes, the church hurt me,
and it was just it was a It was a
really powerful, profound moment for me to kind of bear
witness to as someone that was not raised at all
with any religion or belief, but just knowing that any
(05:37):
kind of forced belief, any dogma, any institutionalized institutionalizing of
really anything, there can be so much pain and conflict
and harm in sometimes. So I'm so excited to talk
to you about this because this is something that is
just so incredibly real for life hundreds of millions of people. Yes, Yes,
(06:06):
And I think where I'd love to start is how
did this call find you? How did you know this
was your work?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So, like you, I wasn't raised in faith. I actually
was raised with the view that faith or religion was
more negative than positive. I was raised by in a
queer household in the eighties and the nineties, so in
that time, it was very much if you're a person
of faith, that feels like you're a person against my family.
(06:38):
So I didn't have the baggage being in a church, right,
but I knew that, well, why do these people not
like my family? So I always just had that in
the back of my mind, you know. And we were
raised in a I lived in an area where there
were a lot of people practicing. They were Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons,
(07:01):
a lot of Christians, Catholics, very very heavily concentrated more
a Christian faith, And I was just so curious about it.
But I didn't really have the tools to learn about
it or understand it. But I always knew that deep down,
my dream, my hope was somehow to bring people together
(07:23):
that didn't understand each other. I didn't know what that
would look like. I thought it would look like being
the president. If I'm going to be very honest with you, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I mean that we need a little help in that area,
but maybe don't lose that mission.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yeah. From like first grade on, I'm like I want
to help people, and I'm going to be the president,
you know. But this was always in the back of
my mind. And then when I was eighteen, I met
members of a church out at a coffee shop and
they were evangelizing and it sounded very interesting to me.
And truth be told, one of the members of the
(07:59):
church I instantaneously had a connection with, like she and
I just connected very deeply. And so I'm like, well,
this is my perfect opportunity to go to this church
and like learn right. And what I ended up learning
was there was a lot of rules and how to
participate in faith and being a queer person myself, my
(08:25):
identity didn't line up with what it what it would
mean to be a faith and that was very, very difficult.
So I studied, studied, studied, I went and I went
on a missions trip. I went to an ex gay ministry.
I was just studying the Bible. I went and got
a bachelors in Southeast Asian religion. I get my master's
(08:48):
in theology. I was just enveloped myself in religious communities
to understand.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Now.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
The the thing here is I was not ever feeling
like I was wrong, and I think that's important, Like
people that are raised in faith often feel like they're
wrong with a queer identity or many identities, they can
do it that way. So because I didn't have that,
I could go into it almost emotion free. I didn't
(09:19):
have a fear of hell or punishment. I just want
to know, why do you believe this right and it?
And by doing that work, I gained an empathy and
compassion and understanding for folks that held those beliefs that
were very high control religion what I call it. So
I'm really dedicated, I would say, my twenties and thirties
(09:44):
into helping the queer community understand that faith and sexual
orientation didn't have to be separate, because it felt like
these two things are not allowed to intersect. So I
feel like queer people that were Christian were really put
in a situation where they had to reject the faith
(10:05):
because it felt like the faith was rejected them. That
is deeply, deeply painful.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Yeah, yeah, just as kind of a baseline understanding for
everyone listening. What is the definite definition of religious trauma?
Speaker 1 (10:20):
When so, if you think of PTSD, you know where depression, anxiety,
difficult functioning challenges and relationship you're just overall, something has
impacted you that's making life harder to live in a sense.
And in this situation, we're talking about religion. And sometimes
(10:41):
with PTSD, we can think of it as like a
one time event. Yeah, I was in a car accident.
I'm afraid to be in a car, right. But with
religious trauma, especially if you're raised in the church, going
through these events over and over, so it becomes very
very complex. Yeah, So it impacts the way that you
(11:01):
view yourself in relation to creation, viity, faith systems, scriptures,
and how you navigate the world in these.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
My goodness, And it's just like the insidious nature of that,
you know, like when you really think of how that
gets into the fiber of your being and how much
that can like truly disconnect you from your human experience.
And you know, just speaking for my belief and I
believe God and I live in co creation with God.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
It's like.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
What a heinous act to take away someone's ability to
connect to God because they're equating that with what is
wrong or bad about them. Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
And you know, Debbie, when I focused so much on
the queer community, I didn't think about the level of
impact with others. Other communities. And it was maybe about
five or six years ago that I start really looking
at that and I'm like, Okay, well, this is the
female experience in high control religion and what that looks like.
(12:09):
What does it look like when it comes to sexuality
or just sexuality in general, no matter what orientation a
person is or the ideas of how you're supposed to pray,
and if you don't do that a certain way, then
you're wrong or stigmatized, and just the various ways that
(12:30):
trauma from religion can show up. And then in doing
that work, I realized other therapists aren't trained in this.
They just don't know. But like you said right at
the beginning of our conversation, when I'm talking about doing this,
I'll get emails from my marketing person and thanks for
(12:50):
talking about this. You know, when I was growing up,
I went to Catholic school and this so it's like, yeah,
everybody I have really yet to meet a person who
has not experien is some type of religious trauma, whether
it's directly impact in them or someone they know that
then impacted them. It's pervasive.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Can you can you say a little bit more about
a term you used a moment ago high control religion?
What is that?
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Thank you for asking me, you know, because because because
I feel like we have to be so cautious, right
because different religious groups they do work for some people
perfectly fine, So like something that may not work for
me may work for you. And I don't like to say, well,
conservative Christian, I don't like to do that because I
(13:40):
don't think that that's very very fair and loving honestly.
So when I'm speaking of high control, it's really the
religious group that tells you basically how to live, how
to think, how to pray, how to have your faith
in black and white, and just very strict structure with
(14:02):
little you can't really distance yourself or have any of
your own identity within that h And it can be
something as simple as wearing a pair of pants. You're
out of line with God because you're wearing a pair
of pants as a female right now. That can create
a trauma.
Speaker 3 (14:21):
Yeah, God, it's so I mean, God, there's just so many,
so many paths right within this conversation. And God, it's
just so so so complex to really think about, you know.
Within I was a part of this this really awesome
documentary put together by my friend Teddy called God Talk,
(14:45):
and it illuminated me to a lot of things I
think I had heard about, but I didn't get to
have direct understanding of as someone that didn't grow up
in a church in that way. And something that seemed
to be this this really basic thread was and this
is specifically in like Black Christian and Baptist churches in
(15:06):
the context of these stories, but one the high amount
of sexual abuse at the hands of the pastor. And
like one of the stories that was told in that
film was of a young boy needing to go confess
to his pastor something and then the pastor kept asking
him specific questions that were very like gross and out
(15:28):
of line. And when the little boy stood up, he
could see that the pastor was doing things with his
body under the desk while he's talking. And you're just like,
like what that does to a child's brain forever? Right,
And then in the instances of a pastor actually you know,
(15:49):
harming a child or you know, there are a lot
of stories have come out recently of just the shaming
of women and the shaming of sexuality, the shit you
mean of pregnancy and you know, a young girl finding
herself pregnant not by choice, and then having to stand
up in front of the church hundreds of people and
be shamed and apologize for who she is and being
(16:12):
told you're not allowed to have a baby shower, no
one will give her gifts for this child, and you're
just like Jesus, it breaks my heart.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Yeah, it truly does break my heart. And that is
one of what you're talking about, that shame, and that
shame is such an foundational issue when it comes to
the religious trauma. Is it's not it's past, like Brene
Brown says, You know, shame is not as goes to
the heart of like you are wrong, not I did
(16:46):
something wrong. I mean they're right, you as you exist
are wrong. And the level of pain and that and
and and they're saying it in the name of of God.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. That just the highest stakes there is,
you know, like when you're thinking about your soul, yes deeply. Well,
(17:20):
you're writing your new book right now, which I'm so
excited about. My God, have we needed like a comprehensive
body of work that speaks to.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
This thank you, thank you. I'm you know, it's so funny.
I have to tell you because when PESSI approached me
to write a book. They had actually seen a social
media post that I did. I didn't even believe it
was them at first. I'm like, PESSI. But when they
reached out, you know, they're like, we want to know
if you can write a book about just trauma in general,
(17:48):
sexual empowerment, you know, the basically the pillars of which
I specialize in. And they asked for a chapter, and
I wrote a chapter on female sexual empowerment with the
confines of the church, specifically the outgrowth of Catholicism to
Christianity and the impact on women. And I submitted that
(18:10):
chapter and they said, we actually want you to write
an entire book on religious trauma.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Wow, because there.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Isn't anything like that out there, they said, And there's
not a lot of training for therapists in this area,
and like we're talking about, it is so pervasive, right.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah, yeah, you know with this model, you're introducing a
religious trauma treatment model. Can you share what that is
and just kind of what inspired you to develop this
framework and how it's helping.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yes, So I've been doing this work with clients for
a very long time, and I've been doing this work
personally since you know eighteen on some level, right, So
I was just thinking, how do I work with my clients?
What do I do? And what I realized is, wait
a minute, and this is actually a model of work
(19:03):
like this. It's taking therapy modalities that already are evidence based.
And I think that that's a very important clarification. We're
using evidence based work, and then we're taking that and
we're inserting that into a model that deals with things
like existential crises. We're looking at wow, yeah, and we're
(19:24):
looking at you know, you know, faith, We're looking at
the reactions of bodies. So we're looking at CBT, DBT,
we're looking at somatic work, narrative work, and then time
that all into religion. And the thing that makes this
a little bit more unique is that we're not saying
(19:46):
in the model, don't be faithful or don't have your
faith anymore. So there's a big component of this that
is helping an individual learn how to continue to have faith. Wow.
And that is a tricky part now, wow, because I
feel like we I feel like it to say, well,
I'm gonna throw this all away. You know, I have
(20:09):
significant anxiety and OCD around sexuality because of my faith well,
don't have your faith anymore. Well, no, that's that's really
not going to work for the majority of people. So
how do you reclaim your faith through this model of
therapy work?
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Oh my god? Oh wow? Wow? Like what Like, I'm
just that's landing in me, because yeah, sometimes, like when
when life is so challenging, as it is for so
many of us, like that is the piece that you
don't even know you're chasing, like an ability to have
(20:47):
faith in anything. Yes, you know, but sometimes it does
feel like the possibility of even trusting God again or
having faith in God again seems so far and so hard,
and it's like that relationship can just be so elusive
when you have had these compounded, complex types of traumas
(21:11):
within and without belief, you know.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
Yeah, and especially when you're coming out of that high
control environment. Yeah, and your family is in that environment, right,
your neighborhood group, your culture group, everyone is in this church.
So it's beyond even just shifting your theological belief. It's like, now,
how do I embody this way of believing while everyone
(21:38):
else is still believing this? Or am I being pushed
to believe this? Will I lose my community? I mean
there's so many layers here of I mean, we're looking
at a very complex system of human existence.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
I mean really, yeah, I mean you have to also yeah, wow,
like you have to completely reprogram even what you're understanding
of community is. And so many people lose theirs in
in this kind of reclamation of their own freedom and self.
It's like so often we hear stories of you have
(22:12):
to choose, and you're the entirety of your family, the
entirety of your neighborhood. Now you're just on the outs
and you've lost everything.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
And I saw, you know, especially within the queer community.
What I what I noticed was an outright It's called
the term that people use is christ of phobia, but
it's like you literally feel when when people say they're
Christian or and and that was something that I experienced,
(22:46):
and I, if I'm being perfectly honest, I still experience
because it was a trauma for me. It was it
was a trigger. So it's like I hear that and
immediately I go, this person's going to hate me. All
this people are going to me because it was just
so ingrained, right, So what ends up happening is that
(23:07):
you push so far away from the idea of faith
or you almost turn it into some kind of joke
or something silly or ridiculous. But at the heart of
that for many is pain.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah yeah, yeah, how is that process? You know a
lot of your work is really in service to reclaiming agency, Yeah,
you know, personal agency, and you know if someone has
been harmed in those specific ways. How do you even
begin to heal shame around your sexuality?
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Great question, and it very much is dependent on where
the person is because everyone is very, very different. And
I in the book, I have a lot of vignettes
of people at different stages and even different faiths trying
to maneuver some of this. But one of the main
things that I want to look at as I need
to understand their value system. Right, like people generally, we're
(24:07):
all living in this very complicated world and most of
us are really just trying to survive. And it's incredible
how many of us don't really have the time to
even stop and say, what do I believe? What do
I value? What do I want my life to look like?
(24:30):
And we don't we don't really have these conversations. So
first I just want someone to understand those pieces. Now,
if there's someone within a faith community, I'd like to Okay, well,
what's the values that you're receiving out of this faith community? Okay,
what's your value? And then I will especially around like
(24:51):
the Abrahamic faith with some with im pretty knowledgeable bull out,
I'll pull in some scripture scripture as well, you know,
like for example, a client it's coming out of a
high control Christian group, I'll say, let's talk about what
is Jesus? And let's talk about what is your particular church,
(25:14):
and let's see what lines up and doesn't line up?
And how does that feel flower right? And so it's
and it's it is, it's extensive. Wow, it's very difficult work.
So when a person is even like you know, I've
had clients that it's taken years to leave a church
and it's and that happens when they realize that they're
(25:38):
so madically not doing well and it's almost like they're
living two identities and it becomes difficult. They're not integrated.
So the way I speak to them is how can
we integrate? How can we integrate you? Because this how
could you can't live disassociating from yourself because even that
(25:58):
is going to harm your relationlationship with the divine. Yeah,
you know, but it's slow. Yeah, can you talk about that?
You know, what what is it to integrate? What does
that word mean in this kind of a context, and
like what is actually happening inside? So speaking specifically to
(26:20):
a queer person, Yeah, So if you're told that your
sexual orientation is wrong, right, and you are wrong, and
then you are in fact this identity. You can't change
your identity. You cannot change who you are. But I
would make the argument that as a person of faith,
(26:41):
that's not necessarily something you can change either. It may
not be that that particular model, but a person of faith,
I feel like that is equally as part of your identity.
So what we're trying to do is say, how can
you be a person of faith and a person in
(27:01):
a harmonious way, not in a way that's yeah at
odds at odds with each other where it's like, well,
I go to church and I feel bad about who
I am. I second guess my sexuality or how to
act on my sexuality, or I'm constantly obsessed about my
sexuality because I'm being told that it's wrong. How do
you open yourself up to have a real relationship with
(27:23):
the divine if you're in constant turmoil and struggle just
because you exist as you exist.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
You know, it's so a thought is coming up for me.
You know, it's so interesting because it's like God predates
the Bible's existence, right, Faith predates the Bible's existence. Yet
so often when we hear about these kind of conflicting
ways of being able to live within faith, it's because
it is in contrast of the Bible specifically, not that
(27:56):
it's in contrast of God, not that it's in contrast
of belief or faith or trust. It is in contrast
to certain things very often taken out of context or
kind of exaggerated in the Bible. And I don't know
if I even have an end to that thought, but
that's someone that's something that came through while you were
(28:18):
saying that, because it's like, yeah, faith and belief in God,
I find a lot of beauty and things that are
written in the Bible, and my relationship to God exists
with or without my connection to the Bible.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
I love that you're saying that because my largest study
in the theology was first century Christianity and trying and
understanding how did this book come to be.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Oh the floors you are, let's go.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Right, So I see the book. The Bible is a
multitude of books that came from different areas and in
the Roman Empire, and it was a group of people
decided these are the stories that are going to go
in this book, and we're creating a very specific narrative.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Now, not every book that is in there is the
oldest or the most primary source. So when I look
at the Bible, I go, Okay, this is a book
of humans trying to understand God at its best incarnation.
I'll put it like that. I can see it as
(29:34):
like it's political, it's it's I can see it as
many different ways negatively, but I'm going to choose to
say this is just us learning.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
So It's like it's not so much that following word
for word for word how we're interpreting things today and
the translation of today, but it's more about what is
the overall message that we're trying to understand from this
book and how than just being myself, how does this
(30:09):
relate or correlate with what messages I'm seeing in other
faith groups?
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Right?
Speaker 1 (30:14):
And there are many things that overlap and and I'm
sure you've heard this, and you I'm sure you live this.
Love is the defining factor of all of this, absolutely, right, absolutely,
We're not going to get anywhere yelling Bible versus at
each other like you know. So it's like I'm not
going to do that. I'm not going to try to
disprove someone's faith because while historically speaking, this didn't happen
(30:39):
to No, that's your faith, It's beautiful, it's great. Let's
talk about love.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yeah, yeah, are you showing up in love?
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Are you? If we look at who we understand Jesus
to be yes, Okay, do we understand Jesus to be.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
Right?
Speaker 1 (30:59):
I mean, really, Jesus is with the marginalized, the hurting.
Jesus is all love. He he is throwing away these rules.
I mean, it's and Jesus.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Is the epitome of mastery of self, mastery of integrity
of love. Yes, and it is always shocking to me. Well,
it also just proves so many people wear it as
a cloak right, or wear you know, belief really just
as the thing to fit in. But they aren't doing
their own study, or they aren't in their own relationship
(31:32):
with God or with faith because so many people know
the name of Jesus but refuse to live the tenets
of Christ.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Absolutely, And it's just it's like, yeah, sorry, I'm just
like you're right though, because you know, it's I had
a great conversation with a couple of professors the other
day because, you know, nerding out on this, and we
were talking about, well, how did this happen? Well, it
happens because you have the church fathers from the first
century deciding what it means to be a Christian because
(32:04):
when Jesus dies, there's nothing there. Who was this person?
What happened? What do we do with this message? So
now you have human beings trying to build a religion,
and it was built in different ways across the Roman
Empire by different groups of people, and then it was
solidified into one Catholic Church not until three hundred and
(32:30):
twenty AD under a Constantine the Empire. Right, So that's
when you now get this solidified faith, and that's when
ideas about what does it mean to have free will,
what does the trinity mean? These are being decided by
people three hundred years later. So that's why I feel
(32:51):
like this is people trying to understand God, trying to
understand the faith right, but it's fascinating, But like jes
what do we know about Jesus when you're looking at
sourcing around that time love but the church fathers and
coming out of Constantine sexuality, women viewed so negatively and
(33:14):
it was used to marginalize and harm people in the
name of Jesus. And that's why we have what we
have today is a faith that for some is used
just to do that, even though it's the antithesis of
how we understand Jesus to be. So it's like Jesus
Versus high control. Christianity deeply well.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
In all the kind of ways that your work and
your curiosity and your lived experience kind of come together
and intersect. What are some of the biggest kind of
gaps you see especially in mental health care because I
think there is religious trauma, and then there also is
therapies trauma. You know, people like kind of going and
(34:01):
seeking therapists to reconcile, to integrate, and therapists sometimes being
very misaligned with someone's identity or the way to truly
be able to help them. What are some of the
gaps you see in mental health care when it comes
to supporting queer individuals and how can therapists really create
truly affirming spaces.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
First, we all need to have humility because sometimes we
really don't know what we don't know. And I will
see therapists that we'll say I can work with queer
couples because I work with straight couples. It's different. It
(34:48):
is different, you know. But when we were in school,
our profession really teaches that you can work with anybody.
We call for cultural competence. Okay, teach, We're taught you
can work with anyone. But cultural competence is really important.
And I think that's because there is not enough mental
(35:08):
health workers to support the population. But in my practice,
I lean very much into if you do not really
specialize in a disorder or a group of people, don't
do it, Wow, just don't do it. So I see
the gaps everywhere, but I think we don't fill in
(35:29):
the gaps necessarily by trying to learn everything. We fill
in the gaps by saying, hey, let me professionally network
with people that are different than me. So I have
a place for clients that are coming to me that
I cannot really work with or I don't have the
skill set to work with because I know that Dev
does have the skill set to work with these people
(35:50):
and they're going to get good care with DEVI that's
that is the gap filling. Truly, I'm so glad you
said that. And I think like that is such that
is its own kind of episode.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
This this understanding of like humility within expertise. You know,
it's like and that is not That's what really needs
to come online in the world a lot more. And
I think we've been in this culture which is look
at me, look at me, look at me, especially from
an expert standpoint. I mean, we definitely see that within
the influencer culture and the girl boss culture and the
(36:29):
online culture, but also with an expertise, it's like everyone
wants to just say I'm the top, I'm this, I'm
the and it's like true expertise is what you said.
It's knowing when when you have specialized in something or
given a lot of particular thought and study to particular
(36:49):
things that you're called to do, and passing the baton
when you can't do that.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yes, and you know, I'm so cautious to like getting
my sage out there. People want to say, Okay, well,
you are an expert in this, and as you've just
said the word specialty, I say, I never ever actually
want to say expert because I don't believe an expert exists.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I just don't.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
I believe that there's people that specialize in things. They've
spent their life working on something, they have a great
deal of knowledge and can teach others. But an expert
is like God level, and that just does not exist.
Then that's why I think we need to continue with
that humility, because there's always room to learn and to
grow and to discover.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah, God, And with each generation, everything changes, yes, is
that kind of the time?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Everything changes exactly, Like working with you know, queer folks
twenty years ago is not what it is now. I
have to I have to learn so much at one time,
you know, And at thirty I was an expert in this. Yeah,
now I'm novice because the experience of people in their
twenties looks really different, you know, So that learning is continuing.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
Oh my God. And to that point too, you know something,
I think within that context and also just within other systems,
it's like the trauma of that even right of like
what it must have been like like if you're someone
who's part of the Silent generation or the Boomer generation
and you're queer, and what you're navigating and you're healing
may be completely different than someone who has different kinds
(38:26):
of freedoms and visibility who's queer in Gen Z or
maybe queer within the Alpha generation. It's there are going
to be different pain points that you might be navigating
with different groups.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Oh my gosh, I remember twenty years ago when I
started to think of what word do I want to use, LGBTQ, queer,
What do I want to say? And I use the
word queer, and I had quite a bit of backlash
from people that were in older generation. So that word
was hurt to That word was used to harm us.
(38:59):
It's hard triggering, right. But now we're in a space,
and we've been in a space probably for at least
a decade now where that word is taken back and
we're empowered by that word. But twenty years ago that
word was harmful. Yeah. So I mean, to your.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Points has so much sense and the beauty of that
nuance of being able. I think as multiple generations live
at the same time, to hold space for that nuance
in each of our individualized experiences.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yes, and just have empathy and compassion. And I think
we get caught in our echo chambers sometimes and it's
really important to and I know I keep saying the
word humble, our humble, but really like to humble ourselves
and be around people that have really different experiences than us.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Yeah. Yeah, humble is one of my favorite words of
all time. I did a three part series on this
podcast on human this year. So when I say you
are like speaking my language, because everyone gets that word wrong.
I think in today's day and age, that is about
boisterousness and it's about self aggrandizing and visibility. It's like people,
(40:15):
I think have such a misinterpreted understanding of what the
word humility is. Like the path of Christ is the
path of humility and mastery, right like, and everyone thinks human, well,
I'm not going to be quiet or no, I'm I'm
great and everyone's gonna know I'm great, and I'm like,
that's that's not what being humble is. It doesn't mean
(40:37):
be small, be minimized, being visible exactly. Humble is power, yes,
Like it is a quiet power that can fill a room, yes,
and help a room. You know, I think humble rest
and service, yes, and curiosity and empathy yes, exactly. Thank you.
(41:00):
This episode is just yeah, special and important. You know,
I think before I could talk to you all day
and week and month. But you know, with your with
your new book on the Horizon and your work and
mental health advocacy growing, what is your ultimate hope for
how this field is able to evolve in in addressing
(41:21):
excuse me, religious trauma and inclusivity.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Even though my book is religious trauma, I want to
speak specifically to inclusivity because that to me is as everything,
that's the umbrella of everything. Inclusivity. We need more people
in this field that are different.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
I mean honestly, like we just.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
We We need folks from all backgrounds and all religions
and all identities and life experiences to have access to
the type of training first off, that is beneficial for
as many communities as possible. There's a lot that I
could break down there in itself, but I'll say that
(42:12):
like evolving, The training evolves as more voices are involved
in what that training looks like, and then more communities
have access to care that's going to make sense for them.
So everything is about inclusivity. So my work does focus
on religion and focus on sexual empowerment, even nominogamy, things
(42:34):
that people sometimes tense up, even therapists tends up to
talk about. You know, I'm doing trainings on you know,
how sex work can be empowering for some people in
mental health, Like I am very very into what therapists
themselves might feel a little uncomfortable with and just tearing
(42:54):
those walls down and educating and advocating and every every person,
no matter who they are, feels like they have a
safe space to go and be themselves and grow and
be the best versions of themselves in a very challenging world.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
In a very challenging world. Yeah wow, And I'm sure
you know, I think a lot of what you were
saying too is like continued education and curiosity for those
that are already a part of that of that world
and that network, because everything is always changing. Like it's
just it's so easy to get stuck in one way
(43:31):
of doing things, maybe with clients or within your network
of you know, therapist or.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Doctors, And I think it's important to push back, to advocate,
to learn, you know it. I feel like like you're saying,
like you can get stuck in certain ideas, and I'm
a big believer in like learning as much as you
possibly can about something, you know, So it's and looking
(43:58):
at standards of care. Now, granted, this probably wouldn't fly
so great with my board, but I often look and say,
all right, there's this rule here, but my value system.
My supervisor loved this is what I was in this.
I said, my value system does not align with this.
I said, this rule is going to change one day,
(44:22):
but my value system and love and care is not.
How do we shift this rule?
Speaker 2 (44:30):
You know?
Speaker 1 (44:30):
So it's like I believe we do have to fight
back at these systems, even the systems that are here
to help and support, there's still parts of that that
we have to fight back. Yeah, and say, how do
we change this for a changing world where there are
more voices involved in this?
Speaker 3 (44:49):
Yeah, thank you so much. At the end of every episode,
I like to invite our guests to provide some soul
work for the audience, which can be really anything that
allows those listening to integrate even further into the conversation
they just heard and witnessed. So sometimes that looks like
a journal prompt or a somatic practice, a thought starter,
(45:12):
a prayer, a meditation, absolutely anything goes.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I know just what to say everyone out there, a
lot of us are experiencing anxiety right now, and stress
and cortisol creates more stress. That's going off the hook
for some of us. What I'd like you to be
able to do is just when you find yourself experiencing stress,
try to open up your chest and breathe. Because oftentimes
(45:44):
when we do feel stressed or anxiety, our instinctual reaction
is to come in like this, which actually makes the
stress and anxiety worse. So next time you're experiencing that,
try to make a practice of knowing what you what's
going on with your body in moments of stress and anxiety,
and just try opening up your chest and just taking
(46:06):
some breath and just grounding yourself and taking thirty seconds
to just be there in your body, check in with
your systems, and you know, for my clients, I'll say
try that two or three times a day. Put an
alarm on your phone. We need ground yourself in your
body a couple of times a day. We're one system
(46:29):
where we have to be connected the whole thing, the
whole thing right, and sometimes we're so disgnctou from our
bodies that were so anxious that we're not connecting and
helpful ways.
Speaker 3 (46:41):
And that's the piece that changes your life. Yeah, like that,
that's the piece that allows you to change your choices, Yes,
which changes your life absolutely. Oh my gosh, I just
I cannot wait for your book to come out.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Oh thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
This is going to be just I think, such a
game changer for so many people and for everyone. I
want to It's coming out next year, but I want
to put it on everyone's radar. The book is called
Religious Trauma Treatment Model, Religious Trauma Treatment Ma dol definitely
write this down. Journal this Yeah, my website. You can
subscribe there and I'll give updates of when the book's
(47:18):
coming out as well. And if you scroll down into
the show notes of this episode, either on YouTube or
Apple or Spotify wherever you're listening from right now, you'll
be able to click directly into Anne's website and click
into every single way that you can possibly contact or
enjoy her work. Debbie, thank you so much for joining
(47:39):
us today.
Speaker 1 (47:39):
Such a pleasure, such a soulful conversation.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Thank you, and Russo, I can't wait to get the book.
Thank you. Thank you for listening to everyone. We will
be back next week now Mistayday. The content presented on
Deeply Well serve solely for educational and informational purposes. It
should not be considered a replacement for personalized medical or
(48:05):
mental health guidance and does not constitute a provider patient relationship.
As always, it is advisable to consult with your healthcare
provider or health team or any specific concerns or questions
that you may have. Connect with me on social at
Debbie Brown. That's Twitter and Instagram, or you can go
(48:26):
to my website Debbie Brown dot com. And if you're
listening to the show on Apple Podcasts, don't forget. Please rate, review,
and subscribe and send this episode to a friend. Deeply
Well is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect Network.
It's produced by Jaquess Thomas, Samantha Timmos, and me Debbie Brown.
(48:46):
The Beautiful Soundback You Heard That's by Jarrelyn Glass from
Crystal Cadence. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio
app or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Host
Devi Brown
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