Work in Progress: Aaron Parnas

At just 25 years old, Aaron Parnas has already been on a wild journey. He began college at the age of 14, entered law school at 18, and wrote his first book in just two weeks while preparing for the bar exam! Today, he is a lawyer, activist, and TikTok news influencer with millions of followers!

Aaron tells Sophia that he was never interested in becoming a journalist. However, when Russia invaded Ukraine, he felt frustrated with the media coverage, so he took matters into his own hands, and the rest is history. He also opens up about the arrest of his father, Lev Parnas, shares the truth about the Hunter Biden laptop investigation, reflects on his transition from being a Republican to becoming a Democrat, and the newest headlines he is keeping an eye on!

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends,
Welcome back to another episode of Work in Progress. Today
I am sitting down with someone whose brain I am

(00:21):
absolutely obsessed with, and whose TikTok I am also obsessed with.
Today we are joined by none other than Aaron Parnas.
He is a lawyer, he is an activist, and he
also happens to be the son of Lov Parness. Yes,
the gentleman who was arrested for his role in the

(00:42):
whole Trump Ukraine scandal. My goodness. Aaron grew up in
a staunchly Republican family, was a Trump voter in twenty sixteen,
and then was inside the first administration and saw things
that really will come up to the reality of what
most of America is up against with an incoming oligarchy.

(01:06):
He has since become an activist in support of the
Democratic Party. Sure, but I would really just say in
support of Americans, particularly school children. It was the twenty
twenty two Russian invasion of Ukraine that led Aaron Parnas
to TikTok. He actually works as a securities litigation attorney
at a law firm in Washington, d C. But it

(01:29):
was his personal connection to Ukraine and family on the
ground that really alerted him to the fact that American
media wasn't covering the whole story. So Aaron decided to
get on the internet and help. Not only is he
an impressive leader and the kind of guy who's bringing
Walter Cronkite energy back to the world of social media news,

(01:49):
but he's also a lawyer. He graduated with honors from
law school at the age of twenty one. Yeah, this
is a guy who got bumped up to high school
at the age of fourteen. And in twenty twenty he
published a memoir titled Trump First, How the President and
his associates turned their backs on me and my family. Today,
we're going to talk about what that was like, seeing

(02:11):
from the inside of a scandal, how these enormous systems
of politics work, and how it really led him to
interrogate himself, his beliefs, and why he believes that truth
and trustworthy information should actually be the thing we are
all the most loyal to. As of today, he's amassed

(02:34):
more than three million followers on TikTok and he is
usually the first social media account that I check when
I finally let myself into my apps in the morning.
Let's hear from Aaron Parness. Hi, Hi, my internet friend.

(03:00):
I'm so excited we're here.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
I'm so excited. Also, I didn't, like, I completely did
not realize I met you at the DNC when you're
with Governor Moore.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yes, yes, I mean it was so brief, but like
so brief.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yes, it is going to be so fun. I'm really excited.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, I'm so amped. I like, I'm I'm sort of
at a loss for words because Aaron, where do we
even start?

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Where? I don't I don't know. I mean, I couldn't
tell you. It's a show like truthfully, like bigger than
I could have ever imagined.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
The weird thing is in these really bizarre ways. I'm
not surprised by anything. They gave us a roadmap, they
told us what they were going to do. Yes, it
was evil. Yes, it read like, you know, some sort
of insane spy movie that if you turned it in
at a Hollywood studio they'd be like, tone it down,
you're being ridiculous. But I'm I'm so I'm in shock

(04:00):
every day that it's really this depraved and terrible.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
I get it. I mean I think that like it's interesting, right,
Like he did have the Project twenty twenty five roadmap.
We knew what they were. And then everyone was like, well,
he's saying he has nothing to do with Project twenty
twenty five. Okay, great, look where we are at now.
I mean, I don't know if you saw a political
had an interview with the former Project twenty twenty five architect,
he was asked, what do you think about this? And

(04:24):
he goes, well, it's beyond my wildest dreams, like it's
even betaw that, and I mean, I think it's and
I think this goes to something that I've been talking
a lot about with like my friends and stuff, is
that the reason why Democrats don't have their act together
right now is because they're trying to compete against As
though Trump is running for reelection, he's not completely different
beasts right now, right like, he has completely unchecked power

(04:47):
in a way, he has a Republican House or Republican Senate,
and he doesn't care what the voters think because he's
not running for reelection, he has the next three and
a half years.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Not only does he not care what the voters think,
he doesn't care what the courts. Thing we have someone
who is occupying the highest office in the land, who
is often in the world called the leader of the
free world. You know, make up that what you will,
but that's the age old tagline for the American president.

(05:17):
This person doesn't care about anything but money and power.
And so I'm trying to like make sense. Had I
posted something about them gutting the EPA, and I just said,
tell me why this makes sense. I don't care if
you are a died in the wold liberal, if you
are a hyper religious conservative. Dirty air and poisoned water

(05:44):
and sewage in your drinking water and poisoned earth that
you can't grow food in is bad for everybody. So like,
what are we doing here?

Speaker 2 (05:56):
To anyone's guess, I mean, I really think we're in
a position right now where he as president, really only
knows about ten percent of what's happening in his own government.
And I think he's really I mean every president really has,
in my opinion, kind of limited oversight of what actually
is happening day to day and all these agencies. But
I think he's gotten to a point where he's kind

(06:17):
of he has his little pet projects that he really
cares about, like provoking Hunter Biden secret Service protection, but
everything kind of give him carp blanche authority to those
overseeing these agencies, many of whom have their own pet
projects and their own kind of goals, whether it's remote
business interests for big oil for example in the epaight example,

(06:39):
or really anything else. So I don't think he really cares,
is the thing. He doesn't really care to go and say,
you know what, this is bad. It's more of like,
you know what, if you think that's good, if you
want to do it, go ahead and do it. I
don't really care. That's kind of where I think we're at.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Wow, Okay, so we have to pause, We have to
rewind to catch back up to where we are today.
Because you have, I've really become such a trusted voice
out talking about the news. You are meeting the viewers
where they're at, which is largely on social media. Rather
than complaining that you know, no one's watching the five

(07:13):
o'clock news anymore, you're taking the news to the people,
which I think is incredibly important. I know, you and
me and everyone else paying attention saw the actual scale
infographic of how dwarfed by right wing influencers. Any truth
teller or messager on the left is so we got

(07:34):
to go, we got to go to the battlefield. How
did you get this way? Like, talk to me about
your childhood. You have always been brilliant. You started college
when you were only fourteen, you were in law school
by eighteen. Like the accelerated track is wild. And not
only were you clearly a brilliant kid, but you grew

(07:56):
up in a very political landscape. So can you give
the listeners who I very affectionately call my whipsmarties, So
they're exactly your kind of people. They like to know things.
Give them a little bit of like the background t
on how you got like this?

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, truth be told. I never wanted to be an
influencer or even do journalism. I always had a dream
of going to law school, working as a public defender
and kind of just doing that for the rest of
my life. Really, law school changed that. And talk about
what happened twenty twenty two, but that also changed. But
growing up, I grew up in a political household to

(08:31):
the extent that I had family that was close to
Donald Trump and had deep ties to the first Trump administration,
deep ties to those around they're now president, the former
president and really grew up in kinda maga world. I
claimed to be a Republican myself, even though I really
didn't know what that meant at the time, and I

(08:53):
was just I really saw a maga for what it
was from inside, being so close to it. And I
did that for several years while also in college slash
high school between before starting law school and then really
when I started law schoo when I was eighteen and
really exposed me to a lot. But I really didn't
start being on social media until twenty twenty two when

(09:17):
Russia did Ukraine. By then, I had already decided I
was no longer a publican. I'm actually a democrat. I
realized what that was. But in twenty twenty two, when
Russia invaded Ukraine, I had family in Ukraine, and I
would be hearing from my uncle and folks there about
what was happening on the ground in front of their house, bombs, overhead, tanks, outside,
crazy situation. Thankfully, everyone's okay. But I would hear from them,

(09:38):
and then I would see what's happening on mainstream media
here and it'd be completely different worlds. And so I
just opened up a TikTok account and just started making
videos and kind of the rest is history. So it's
been a wild, wild journey.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, it's really interesting that you say the thing about
what you knew to be true from reporting on the
ground and what was being repped resented on the media,
because back in the day, you know, I'm not old
enough to be your mother, but I'm in that like
half generation above you. So imagine a time before TikTok,
before even Instagram, you know, Twitter had launched. When it

(10:15):
first did, I was like, who cares about pictures of
anyone's breakfast? The irony being that now I follow one
million food bloggers because I care turns out. But I
was sort of like, the landscape is weird, and as
an entertainer, you know, the tabloid culture then was crazy.
I was like, I don't want to participate anymore in
this cesspool that I have to. And then Deepwater Horizon happened,

(10:36):
and I knew that they weren't telling the truth about
this massive oil spill off the coast of Louisiana. I
had friends down there because I'd been making a film
there a few summers before. Fishermen I knew were sending
me videos and We're like, the news is lying. So
that's why I got on Twitter and I flew down there,
and then the Sheriff's threatened to arrest me and a

(10:57):
bunch of lawyers we brought from Global Green. It was
a whole situation, and I was reporting the news on
Twitter because the news wasn't reporting the news. And when
you talk about Ukraine, I feel like there were moments
when I went looking where I saw what was happening
on the ground there where I saw Russian forces tying
men up and executing them outside of their homes. We

(11:19):
knew they were kidnapping children, we knew that hospitals were
being bombed. I mean, it was horror, horror after horror,
but it wasn't It wasn't in the sort of Walter
Cronkite news package you would have expected from the American news.
And now protests are happening in cities around America and
cities around the world about what's happening in America, and

(11:42):
they're not being covered on the news at all. So
how do you make sense of that? Because you've said,
you know, you mentioned earlier your family was very in
the mix in Maga World for our listeners, Love part
Us was tight heavily involved with Rudy Giuliani, Trump's first admin.

(12:08):
You've talked about having seen inside version one of this administration,
having been in the room for these conversations with top
Republican allies. So I'm curious because of what you've seen,
why you think they don't want us to see so much,
Whether it's about Ukraine, whether it's about the protests, like

(12:31):
what's going on here.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
I think it's two things. I think number one, it's
fear and number two it's money. Right. I think the
mainstream media and just media generally is fearful of what
Trump can do to if they report something that's in
his eyes not correct. I mean we see it with
the ABC News settlements, right, we see it with It's
the sixty minutes Kamala Harrison or you lost suit. I mean,

(12:53):
he's going after the media now more than ever before,
and he has the people in his administration to do that.
So I think that's number one. I think fearful of
really getting attacked by the Trump administration. And that's also
why you see it's funny no one else is standing
up with the Associated Press right now after the Associated
Press was kicked out of the OBOL all these other
sane they're just fine with it apparently. So that's number one.

(13:14):
And then number two, I think it's money. I think
ultimately mainstream media is their company is just like anyone else,
any other company, ultimately about their bottom line. They care
about how much money they're making from ad sales, from
watch time and all that. So I think that they're
beholden to those that are paying their bills, and I
think those that are their bills often don't want the

(13:36):
same narrative that every day people want to see, in
my opinion, and I think that to your point, the
protests aren't being covered and all that, it's one hundred
percent true. And part of that goes to why there's
been such a rise in independent media right now and
why social media has really empowered kind of the next
generation of media, because mainstream media companies are slowly realizing

(14:00):
that they have to cover these events. If they don't,
they're just going to be left behind. And I do
see some subtle shifts in their coverage, but it's still
not there yet. I mean, we still have an hour
every night on CNN with Scott Jennings arguing in a
round Table with Abby Phillips. I feel so bad for
her because she's such a great journalist.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Because she's incredible great.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
They put her on this panel with Scott Jennings and
it's no longer news, it's not Walter Cronkite. It's an
hour of opinion, and Americans are frustrated.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
So absolutely, and now for our sponsors, I do hear
you on why they're afraid, But I also find it
to be ridiculous. I mean even the fact that ABC
News caved and the judge had to say, what's going
on here? He was convicted, He was found guilty of

(14:53):
raping this woman. What do you mean you can't talk
about that on the news. It's like splitting hairs here
in this way. That is so crazy, And yet they
want to him in haw ensue and claim, oh, he
could never And then here's Trump importing the Tape Brothers,

(15:13):
violent violent rape culture guys, having Connor McGregor accused multiple times,
and if I'm remembering correctly, someone on the internet can
fact check me in real time. Convicted of having raped
and assaulted multiple women, The Spiritual Advisor is on trial
for raping a twelve year old girl. Trump's spiritual advisor

(15:36):
for my friends at home. I'm air quoting so I
don't throw up on myself, Like I'm just I don't
understand how they will fold when the truth is called
a lie and then not talk about any of the
rest of the truth. And I'm curious your perspective on that,

(15:58):
because that seems like the sort of central core of
trump Ism, right, is to say everything you don't like
is a lie, and then two in the same breath,
say you love free speech, but then sue everyone who
uses their free speech in a way you don't like.
When you've talked about these conversations that you were privy

(16:20):
to for years, did you kind of see inside the
hive mind of this, Like what did you see that
made you go, oh, the emperor really has no clothes?
What revealed it to you?

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah? I mean, I think just constantly how they spoke
about folks behind the scenes, like average everyday people and
especially young people. There was a constant, like subtle undertone
of like, they're not smart enough to really grasp what
we're serving, right, like what we're kind of telling the public,
and especially what we're trying to push towards young people.
They're not smart enough to really realize what we're going
to do, right, Like they're going to support us, and

(16:56):
then we're going to be able to do whatever we
want when we get into office. And that's kind of
what I saw over those years. And it's actually why
I'm not really surprised that young people and especially young
men voted for him a lot more now than they
did that even back in twenty sixteen, because what he
was selling appeal to them, even if it wasn't what
they're actually going to get over the next four years.

(17:16):
I will say that. So, I think something that people
don't really realize is that the weight of the Justice
Department and the federal government on your shoulders, whether you
are an individual being prosecuted or a company being sued
by the Trump administration, is so great, I mean, so
puditarily just anxiety inducing. I mean it is. And I

(17:39):
represented a lot of folks in criminal matters when I
was practicing as a lawyer, and there's nothing scarier than
having the Department of Justice go after you, because it
will cost you millions in legal fees, it will cost months,
if not years, of headache, It'll cost you so much
damage to your reputation, and the same thing applies to
any one of these media companies. ABC News is a

(18:01):
very large company. But if fearful that the Trump Justice
Department or the Trump FCC can go after them, then
to them, it's it's much easier to pay them off
fifteen million dollars then me in a year's worth of
litigation right now.

Speaker 1 (18:17):
Right, But isn't that Isn't that dictatorship weaponizing a Justice Department,
weaponizing federal departments like the FBI to go after people
you don't like, rather than to go after people who've
committed crimes.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
It is, and I thankfully, I mean, they haven't prosecuted
anyone yet, right, I mean it's only been two months.
They haven't. They haven't used the Justice Department to specifically
prosecute any of his quote unquote enemies just yet. But
we're seeing him lay the groundwork with him trying to
at least publicly say he's reversing Joe Biden's pardons, which

(18:58):
is insanity. We see the FBI purging and demoting a
number of top officials who worked on January sixth related cases,
and interestingly enough, in DC where I live, the US
Attorney or the acting US Attorney Ed Martin has really
claimed he's Donald Trump's personal attorney, has claimed that he's
going to be going after people who go after Elon Musk,

(19:20):
And so they're laying the groundwork to eventually do something.
I'm just glad they haven't done it yet, and I
hope they don't do it. Book you never know.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
But here's what frightens me. It reminds me of the adage.
First they came for right. We all know the poem,
and we're seeing it now. They are disappearing people and
then claiming with no due process, no investigation, no evidence,

(19:49):
no proof in a court of law that any of
what they're saying is true. These men that they essentially
kidnapped and sent to this violent prison. And I'll salva
door the doctor who, uh you know, the kidney transplant
doctor who they deported. They said that they found photographs

(20:10):
sympathetic to Hesbolah on her phone. What does that mean?
Who investigated that she's a doctor? Did she did she
download photos of a war zone? Did she like? What?
Tell me, tell me why and tell me the truth,
because I don't think anybody would want any version of

(20:31):
a violent criminal here. But what happens when we find
out that a number of those men that were sent
by the Trump administration to Venezuela were just dads. Yeah,
what happens if they're American citizens? If they can come
for if they can come for fill in the blank,
if they can overturn your green card status, if they

(20:55):
if they can revoke your citizenship as they're threatening to,
they can do it to anyone, anyone. And that's what's
terrifying to me. So even what you're saying, you know,
they're laying the groundwork to weaponize the DOJ. They haven't
done it yet, it sure seems like they're going to.
And when a court orders them to stop these deportations

(21:19):
that don't have any what's the word, I'm looking for,
any any grounding in the rule of law, and they
say no, what do we do, Like, if there's no
checks and balances, who's going to check this guy?

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Well, I mean, I don't know. And the truth be told,
I've asked members of Congress, I've asked House member senators like,
no one knows, No one has an answer to it.
And I think I think you made an important point
that a lot of people, especially on the writer, are
missing and not that Democrats and just Americans generally are
okay with, for example, trend dere Aragua members walking around
on the streets. No one wants, no violent crime, and

(21:55):
they're undocumented. Remove them. Everyone's saying that. But under the
United States Constitution and under Supreme Court, President everyone, no
matter whether you're documented or undocumented, you have due process rights. Right,
you have the ability to face your accuser. And right
now he is suspending that, and that is dangerous. In
the situation of the kidney transplant doctor, I don't really

(22:15):
care about what she found, what they found on her
phone as much as I care about the fact that
there was a judicial order in place. That's exactly, don't
let her leave the country. And they let her leave
the country anyway, they deport you, exactly. That's the problem.
They're not going through the proper channels. And today Justice
Roberts rebuked Trump for calling for the epachment of Judge Bosberg,
which I thought was yes, you never hear that ever.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
Okay, Okay, can you walk folks through that because you
are you are a politically brilliant human. I am a
bit of a political junkie. Not everyone spends as much
time as I do, or as you do reading the
news and studying this stuff. Tell the folks at home
what that means for Chief Justice John Roberts to do

(23:02):
what he did today. Can you walk us through what
a big deal that is and kind of paint the picture.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, I mean to put it into perspective. The Supreme
Court does not issue political statements, does not issue statements
about a sitting president, no matter who the president is.
It is so rare for it to happen, and in
the past ten years it's only happened twice. It happened
once in twenty eighteen and once today. And the reason
why and they're so careful about what they do that

(23:30):
they don't even clap during the State of the Union.
When Donald Trump or any president says the state of
our Union is strongly, very basic statements, they won't clap.
They'll just sit there. Many of them won't even attend
because they want to look as a political as possible.
And well, this morning, Donald Trump called for Judge Bosberg,
who's overseeing this trend dear Aragua Venezuelan and deportation issue,

(23:51):
to be impeached because he essentially did not agree with
his ruling and hours later, Justice Roberts issued a statement
saying that essentially, calling and I'm paraphrasing here, but calling
for the impeachment of a federal judge is just because
you disagree with their ruling is wrong. And it's interesting.
Roberts didn't say Trump's name in the statement, but he

(24:11):
essentially alluded to Trump's comments. Stunning because, like I said,
it's really only the second time in ten years. In
the last time was Roberts rebuking Trump in twenty eighteen
for labeling a judge an Obama judge, and he said
Roberts specifically said they're an Obama or Trump or Clinton judges,
they are just judges. And someone was like, wow, that's
a big deal then, But here it's even a bigger

(24:33):
deal because this is a case that Chief Justice Roberts
will oversee and you will get in front of the
Supreme Court guaranteed whether or not Trump can use the
Alien Enemies Act. So given the fact that he's now
making a public statement, he is risking the possibility of
having himself essentially recused from the case by making this
public statement seemingly rebuking Trump. So it is stunning. I'm

(24:58):
personally shocked, teammated, never have imagined you would have made
something like this.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, it's when your entire job is to be politically
neutral so you can be legally specific. To feel you
have to take a stand is not only radical in
a way, but it also could endanger your career. So
it's a very big deal. I think this is really interesting,

(25:25):
and it speaks to something larger, which is that I'm
getting the sense, whether it's these supposed criminals they're rounding
up or the supposed inefficiency in the government, it seems
like they told a really big story about a really

(25:46):
big problem and a really big budget imbalance, and it
seems like they've looked under the hood of America and gone, oh,
the problems are all a lot smaller than we thought.
Most people who come here are pretty nice and work hard,
And the federal government, while very large, is actually not
very inefficient at all. It just costs a lot of

(26:06):
money to run a country for three hundred and thirty
two million people, and to fund the things those people need,
like medicate, like libraries, like I don't know, the Department
of Transportation. It's not none of this happens for free,

(26:27):
Like we don't have water coming out of the faucet
or street lights that work for free, and a lot
of it requires global participation. You know, you see these
sort of threats of tariffs and all of this destabilization
because it seems like the fifth you know, fifth grade
bully wants to win in the sandbox. How do you
make sense of how we can begin to talk about

(26:51):
what the reality is in a country this big versus
these big scary lies that Donald Trump and clearly you
know Elon the Kenemie cowboy who's weirdly in charge now
of all our personal data. How do we begin to
walk people back from the fear that they stoked that
just isn't being proven true.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
Well, I think the big answer to that is they
actually haven't done a lot. Like when you look behind
the hood of what they've actually accomplished in two months,
it's not a lot of stuff. There's a lot of
executive orders that say a lot of things, but don't
actually do a lot of things. A lot of It's like,
we have to study this over at the course of
ninety days. I direct you to do this over the
course of sixty days. Not a lot is actually getting done.

(27:34):
And what is getting done is getting reversed. For example,
just thirty minutes ago before I got on this show,
a federal judge in Maryland ordered essentially said that the
Trump administration has to reverse nearly everything they did with USAID.
They have to open up Oh.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
Oh thank god, Oh my god. I was on another podcast, Aaron,
You're making me want to.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Cry, which is great news, right, but when you think
about it, the federal government will now have to spend
more money reopening USAID and REI all these people they did,
saving all that money allegedly, right, allegedly, And you're saying, well,
you want government efficiency, but now we're spending more money
to cut money. It's it's wild.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
And now a word from our sponsors that I really
enjoy and I think you will too. I think that's
something people miss is that, Look, nobody wants there to
be waste, right nobody. By the way, I got asked
ten years ago if you were if you were the
president tomorrow, what would be your first action, And I said, well,

(28:38):
nobody's going to think it would be this, but I would.
I would hire forensic accountants to audit every single state
and department in the country. I want to know where
all the money is. I want to understand how best
to maximize the ROI of the United States budget, because
let's be clear, taxes are an investment in a society,

(29:00):
and everyone should be getting a return. Clearly, people like
Elon Musk don't want to invest at all. They just
want all the returns. They want to steal our money.
And apparently he wants to privatize Social Security because the
close to trillion dollars he has isn't enough for him,
and he wants two point seven trillion more crazy pants.
But I think it's also really important for people to go, oh,

(29:23):
there's probably not as much waste as we thought. Oh,
these programs cost money, but they make the planet healthier.
For example, with USAID, the work we do around the world.
That soft power is what won the Cold War. It
is absolutely first and foremost about national security, and it's

(29:47):
just the right thing to do. To ensure that people
around the planet have access to medicine that they need
that we can produce cheaply should be one of the
great honors of American civil life. And to be clear,
preventing the next pandemic, whether it be tuberculosis becoming untreatable
or a Bola matters to us because diseases don't stay

(30:09):
in borders. And so what I think hasn't been considered
is that to turn these things off, these giant machines
that get this flywheel of momentum, going to turn them
off lights money on fire, and to have to restart
them is going to require a whole lot of energy,
ie more money being lit on fire to get them

(30:30):
back to where they were in the first place. So
how do you think, because I'm going to say, I
feel better hearing you say, listen, it's really bad that
they actually haven't done that much. You're right, I needed
to hear that they've also done a lot of really
horrible things, and a lot of what they're doing is
so cruel. How do you think we begin to talk

(30:53):
to people, not just people like us voters on the
other side, our neighbors. The internet would make you think
of everybody hates everybody, We mostly all really like each
other in person. How do you think we start talking
to each other and letting the truth of how this
stuff works and how it's good for everyone actually ring true,

(31:16):
so that we can make like a team America, because
it really is all of America. Versus the oligarchs. At
this point, how do we start to to help cut
through the noise and remind people that we're in this together.
How do we bring the truth back to our side?

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Bye bye bye by sticking to it right bye, by
continue parroting truth. I think the truth is the most
important thing, and just sticking to the facts, that sticking
to the black and white, not sensationalizing things, right, getting
back around a dinner table and finding common agreement over
the future of social security, for example. But I will
say I think that in a time right now where

(31:58):
you have one party that is clearly unified behind Trump
and another party that doesn't really have an opposition leader,
to me, the best opposition is no opposition. This is
what the voters voted for. Give them what they want.
Let them see what they voted for. And you're already
seeing it. And his approval ratings are falling right Google
ratings among independence is down to thirty percent. Sixty seven

(32:19):
percent disapprove of him and you. And there are elections
coming up in New York in a special election. You
have the Wisconsin Supreme Court race on April first, you
have November elections, and then twenty twenty six, and slowly
but surely the pendulum will swim. At a time where
you don't really have a viable opposition. You don't have

(32:40):
a leader on the left saying saying the truth. You
have just a bunch of leaders who are not coordinated
and messaging. I really think it's important to let voters
see for themselves of like, is this really what and
listen at the end of the day, if Americans want this,
that's on them, Like, we can't stop that if two
point one percent want it. But I don't think that's the.

Speaker 1 (33:03):
Case anyway, Well I don't either. I don't think it's
the case, not only with Trump voters, but I also
think it's really important, exactly as you said, to continue
to tell the truth. He had the smallest electoral margin
in history, right, He barely won.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Thousand votes in three states. That's it.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
He barely won. So this is not a mandate, This
is not a demand. And I do think that the lawlessness.
You can't call yourself the party of law and order
and support people who beat police officers to death. You
can't call yourself the party of law and order and
defy the courts and defy everything that is sacred about America,

(33:47):
which is our equality, our justice system, your right to
do process. You can't call yourself the party of family
values when everyone around you is a rapist and the
guy who you gave control of all of our data
has fourteen kids with how many is it seven or eight? Women?

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Now?

Speaker 1 (34:03):
Like, what are we doing? And I do think the
voters in watching what he's doing are having that, Oh,
the Emperor has no close moment. Do you think that
even though they're being heavily critiqued for it, the electeds
on the left, the Democrats aren't organizing a massive resistance

(34:25):
right now so people can find out.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
I don't know, I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
I think maybe we're giving them too much credit. I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Maybe we are because the one thing that Republicans do
well and I saw this on the inside his message well, right,
like if they want to talk about Hunter Biden's laptop,
everyone from Tucker Carlson to your smallest mom and pop
influencer will be talking about Hunter Biden's laptop. On the
Democratic side, it's like, we have affordable housing, reproductive rights,
all these great things. But yeah, different topics, one hundred

(34:56):
different people and there's no coordinating.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
But can I ask you a question, because now we
know how much money Russia has been pumping into these
right wing networks. We know that for them, this is opposition.
We know that they're bragging on our TV that Vladimir
Putin is destroying America without having to launch a single missile.

(35:18):
I mean they're talking about it out loud. They talked
about how they bought an election for Donald Trump. The
right wing all stays on message because they're paid to
deliver that message.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
They do a good job. They have I mean the
left doesn't have that.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
No, we don't have the money, we don't have the reach,
we don't have the like, we don't have the evil
network of billionaires you know, paying Tucker Carlson to do
pro Russia commercials. We just don't have it. How do
you think that became such a runaway train because you
witnessed some of that disinformation up close in your house.

(35:59):
I mean, your father literally helped Rudy Giuliani investigate Joe
and Hunter Biden this whole sham of a Ukraine story,
which now the guy has admitted he made up and
he's going to jail in the first place. But for
some reason, the fact that it's all been found to
be a lie hasn't broken through. So why do you

(36:20):
think that is? Because you wrote in your book, I'm
going to quote you to you, which is so cheesy.
I'm sorry, but I'm doing it for the listeners at home.
You wrote in your book quote, it was clear to
me that everything the mayor and my father did through
the summer months of twenty nineteen related to Ukraine and
the Bidens was done at the direction and with the

(36:42):
consent of President Trump. But when your father got arrested
in twenty nineteen for this whole scam, Donald Trump immediately
distanced himself. So I would imagine as on the personal level,
your book is a way for you to stand up
for your out a little bit. But I would also
imagine on the social, sort of societal level, it's a

(37:05):
way for you to try to ring the bell and
say this was all made up? Was Can you tell
people about it because there might be somebody listening who's like,
what do you mean it was made up? I haven't
seen that anywhere. Give us a little overview, and then
tell us why you think the lie has continued to
outlast the truth.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
Yeah, I mean to me, every time I sat in
these rooms, and granted I was only privy to like
ten percent of everything that they were doing, right, so
there was a lot more that I was than privy too,
but everything every time I was in these rooms, it
was more of like, oh, we have questions that we
need to answer, and we keep hitting these roadblocks and
we keep getting the wrong answer or the answer we
don't like, and it's how to massage this answer to

(37:44):
kind of get it to where we need to go.
So it was always like they're constantly hitting roadblocks and
all of these quote unquote investigations, and I call them
shadow diplomacy schemes when I can.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
I ask a question when you say hitting roadblocks, meaning
they would say find this dirt, and someone would say
the dirt doesn't exist, give it up, and then they'd say, no,
you have to make us some dirt more or less.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Or we're gonna mold what you said into something that
it isn't. Essentially, I really think the reason why it hasn't,
the debunking of it hasn't broken through, is partially because
the messaging on that side is just so well, it's
so easy to understand Joe Biden is corrupt. That is
so easy to grasp. It is much harder to grasp that, No,

(38:34):
actually the Hunter Biden laptop didn't contain exactly what it contained.
But like when you go into the details, you miss
the narrative, and they don't go on details. They have
their high level talking points and they stick to it,
and to this day, that's what they're doing on a
lot of these things. So that's why we're an average American.
It's so easy to understand like these big buzzwords or
these big phrases. On the other side, when you're trying

(38:56):
to fight for the truth, you do have to go
into the nitty gritty. You do have to be details.
But no one's going to listen to that. No one
really cared as much to listen to that. So I
really think that's part of it. I mean, I will
say though, that we are in such twenty twenty twenty five,
we're in such a different space compared to where we
were in twenty nineteen. Like back then it was the

(39:18):
Trump administration. I mean that was the in the third
year of the first administration, and they were still figuring
out like they're left from right, like they still didn't
know really much about the levers of government. We were
in such a different environment. They know how to get
things done now, they know, they know the mistakes they made,
so it's a completely different environment.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
Now, meaning they're more expert at how to break things correct.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
Meaning I told everyone this back in the first or
really during the twenty twenty four election cycle, and people
are like, well, do you like Ron DeSantis or Donald Trump? Like,
who do you think would be better if you were
a Republican? I'd say, well, to any Republican who wants
someone in office, Donald Trump and we're on the sand,
want the same thing. One can just get it done,

(40:02):
the other can't. Right. Ron Sants is just a little smarter.
Donald Trump is an idiot. He can't actually get things done.
And we saw that in the first Trump administration. And well,
now he's in office. He has people around him who
have been in government know kind of what to do more,
and he has no one's obstructing him anymore, no one's
whistle blowing on him anymore because he has all these
loyalists around him. So it's just kind of like full

(40:23):
steam ahead. There's no learning curve anymore.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, that's what scares me is that there's not there's
not a Cassidy Hutchinson in the White House anymore.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
And.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
That's really terrifying. After you released the book, did you
hear from anyone on the Trump team? Did anyone reach
out to you or were you just immediately persona non grata.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
I think immediately persona non grata. I mean, that was
that was such a crazy time for me. That was
also I wrote that book in two weeks between what Yeah,
so I was studying for the bar exam at the
time and oh my god, during COVID. I finished on
like at the bar exam was like October tenth or something,
and then two weeks later I published this book just

(41:11):
to get it out before the November election. And it
wasn't my best work, probably not, but I just needed
to get it out there in case someone was voting
and would read it and see it.

Speaker 1 (41:21):
I am so shook.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
So yeah, it was a crazy time. It was also
during COVID, so I didn't really have anything else to do.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
But wow, completely non related to this conversation, but I
have so many questions for you about time management, Like,
clearly you've nailed something, so we're going to have to
follow up. What is it like now when you look
back at that, Yeah, you know, you speak so much

(41:49):
about the days following your dad's arrest and trying to
make sense of all of this. I can't imagine that
it is comfortable to have to investigate how someone's so
important to you could essentially, I don't want to put

(42:09):
words in your mouth, but I would imagine betray you
or your country in such a way. How do you
make sense of it? Like, what's your relationship with your
father now? Because this is a big national political scandal,
but this is also your dad.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah, I mean, listen, I love my dad and not
my dad. I wasn't really involved in the yeah and
stuff like that, so that was kind of separate, but
from like a human perspective going through that, as I
guess a fledgling lawyer, I quickly realized because I wanted
to do criminal defense work, and when he was arrested,
I kind of experienced the system from the family lens,

(42:47):
from the family of the accused. And when I said
earlier that there is truly nothing in comparison to having
the weight of the Justice Department on your shoulders, like
I thought, genuinely break a person down And to me,
I was looking at that and I was like, it
doesn't matter. I mean, like whether or not you you

(43:09):
did what you're accused of, the hell they put you
through to get to their end result, Yeah, it's not.
And my dad, I mean, it's just a unique case,
and that there was a lot of national tension, right
he got an interview on Rachel Matta or whatever, like,
he definitely got some leniency when it came to sentencing.
But the average American doesn't get that same leniency. The

(43:29):
average am goes through this justice system with who can't
afford an attorney, who has like a single mom with
four kids and is being thrown away for years, and
they throw away, they throw them away, and they locked
them away without the key in a very scary, very
tough situation. I saw that firsthand as the son of

(43:51):
someone who was accused, and I want anyone to have
to go through that.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
Right, It's such an enormous lever of an enormous nation,
and then when it's focused on you or your family,
it must be really terrifying. And I would imagine, again
I'm just speculating here, but I would imagine for someone
like your dad, to go what have I done for

(44:16):
this person?

Speaker 2 (44:18):
Like?

Speaker 1 (44:18):
What have I contributed to for someone who literally wants
to destroy everything we say we believe in. You know,
it's got to be hard. It's sort of I don't
know why this is what's populating in my brain, but
it makes me think so much of the accounts I've
read from other women who've been in abusive relationships, where

(44:41):
once you're out of it, you look back and you go,
how could I have been in that house for so long?
You know? But you're in it and it's your world
and it's you know, your family in certain ways.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Yeah, And I will say I think that in the
days after my dad's arrest, that was like the first
time I experienced quote unquote fame or infamy in a way.
And like a moment where I was walking to school
two days after he was arrested, and there was like
a photographer from like like stopics waiting for me to
walk by. A reporter slid her information under my apartment door,

(45:15):
and I was like, how the hell did you get
in there? And I had never been in like the
public I ever, and I was like, what the hell
did I get myself into? And now five years later,
I'm a public figure, but it was it was truly
a scary time.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
And now a word from our wonderful sponsors, I really
appreciate the way you've been so willing to talk about
all of this, not just on this show today, but
out in the world. And you know, I've I've read

(45:53):
some really amazing accounts, and I've watched some really amazing,
you know, on camera interviews from some folks who have
gotten out of the MAGA world as well, and we've
talked about how getting out of it is kind of
like having to get out of a cult. I have
a friend who got out of a cult. Like it's
the mindset. Stuff is really wild. And I'm really curious

(46:14):
from this perspective, not necessarily, you know today in twenty
twenty five, in the political landscape of you, however, many
pages of Project twenty twenty five were into but I
really mean just for you as an individual, because you
went from being a Trump supporter in sixteen to voting
for Biden in twenty twenty and advocating the way that

(46:35):
you have and publishing your book and doing everything you
could alongside the rest of us who tried to do
everything we could for this election. You have such an
interesting lens on this stuff. So what do you say
to people who are still supporting Trump? Like, how how
do you kind of get the tip of the spear

(46:58):
in to start letting the facts actually matter?

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yeah, I mean, my one thing to all those people
would be to like go and have some of these
lived experiences that I've had. So made me kind of
switch because I never really bought into the Trump mantra.
Right in six twenty sixteen, I couldn't even vote. I
wasn't even old enough to vote.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
So, oh my god, you told us that's true.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
I remember, But it wasn't until like twenty eighteen or
so that I was actually some working in at a
summer job in law school, and a friend of mine
was doing teach for America in Miami, and she invited
me to come into the classroom and teach her students
about like just constitutional law, what happens if a police
officer comes up to you. These are like six seven

(47:48):
year old kids, And I been there and I was like,
instantly it hit me. These kids, I mean, they didn't
have the resources that I had. Their clothing was right, like,
they weren't in a good school environment. They're lucky if
they had two meals a day, right, like their only
meal that they were getting within the school. And in
that moment, I was like, holy shit, one party cares

(48:11):
about these kids. The other party doesn't. And that's when
I flipped, and I think for anyone else kind of
in that world, I want them to have those same experiences.
And it's whether. It doesn't have to be in an
inner city school, right. It could be with an aging
parent who needs Social Security benefits and can't get it right.

Speaker 1 (48:32):
It could be.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
A spouse who has God forbid cancer and needs health
insurance and gets a massive hospital built. Until they experience
something like that for themselves, they won't realize like, okay,
one party wants me to be okay in a situation
like this, while the other party doesn't really care.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Yes. Yes, And it's really interesting, you know, you bring
up the experience of kids in school, and I've had
this debate with some folks online that are like, if
you can't afford to feed your kids, don't have them.
And I'm like, aren't you all the same people who
don't want women to be able to access abortion care

(49:14):
when they need it? Interesting, and it's my argument is always, Look,
I want my taxes to feed kids in schools. I
want kids to be well fed. And know, I don't
think pizza should be classified as a vegetable in schools
because of tomato sauce. I want them to have actual,
healthy food, and I want my tax dollars to go

(49:36):
to that. I don't want the money I pay in
taxes to mean that Elon Musk doesn't have to pay
any to mean that Donald Trump doesn't have to pay
any Someone worth billions of dollars should not be paying
seven hundred and fifty dollars a year in taxes. It's unacceptable.
And I think that the folks that are like, don't

(49:59):
live off the government, you know, make your own way.
I'm like, okay, make your own way. Go move into
the woods, don't use electricity, don't use water, don't use
the roads. You go live absolutely all on your own,
provide for yourself. Go. But the rest of us invest
in a society to be able to be in a society.

(50:22):
We're supposed to be in this together, you know. I
don't think it's a radical idea to say, well, if
it would be cheaper to have universal health care than
to do this, you know, private insurance nonsense we do
in this country, Like, let's shape it up, that's where
the money should be going.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Yeah, I mean, listen, I think something heartening I guess
for you and for your viewers is that I really
do firmly believe in polling has shown and even my
conversations have shown with folks on the ground and online,
is that we are really more united than we are divided.
We are a divide agree, but truth be told, eighty
percent of the nation is united. You have the far

(51:02):
right and the far left, and they are the loudest
voices in the room, but they aren't the most popular ones.
And that's why. And those who represent us in Congress
are not necessarily representing the masses. Right. There are six
senators from North Dakota, South Dakota, and Wyoming representing less
people than LA County. Right, Like, there's a problem inherent

(51:23):
in our system. But that doesn't mean people living in
our nation aren't united. And I really do think, I
do think that the pendulum will swing back to the center.
I do think we'll get back to normalcy. Take time,
and it'll Okay, that hurt, but we'll get there.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
So should we go to South Dakota, Like, what are
we doing?

Speaker 2 (51:43):
I mean, if you want to, if you want to
go to South Dakota, be my guest. I don't want to.
Let's start with advocating for DC to be a state,
Puerto Rico to be a state, right, Like I'm when
Donald Trump says make Greenland in the state, I'm like, cool,
two more Democratic.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Senators, right, let's go. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
But I really think like just getting back to the
kitchen table conversations, really just getting back to within your family,
within your friend groups, like too, And I think I really.

Speaker 1 (52:14):
I hope that I hope so too, And that I
think is actually where the hope is rooted. I think
for anyone listening who feels hopeless, you got to get outside.
You got to talk to a neighbor. The silos and
the anger on the internet and the algorithm, it makes
things seem so much more hateful than they are in numbers,

(52:38):
and there's always going to be hateful people, but there
are so many more of us. What gives you hope?
And as you're making sure to fill yourself up with that,
how do you then also keep up with giving your
followers these daily and sometimes hourly news updates that can

(52:59):
feel hope less. How do you balance this stuff?

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Yeah, what gives me hope is actually funny. It's the
dms and the comments that I get from Republicans. So
I was into comments and dms from Republicans every day
who are saying, Hey, I don't necessarily agree with you
or agree with how you're framing this, but it's right
and thank you. Right, Like I have a Republican cousin
who doesn't watch the media but watches you. That to

(53:24):
me means that what I'm doing is breaking through, that
the truth is breaking through, So that is giving me hope.
And yeah, I have a large audience, but it's a
very small audience in compared to the overall number in
our nation. And I even if I could change one
mind or just expose one person to the truth, that
is giving me hope and what keeps me going. And yeah,
a lot of the news is quote unquote bad, but

(53:45):
it is the news, and people have to be excited
about the news. People have to get excited about learning
about the news. And even if you think it is horrible,
and we are times, I get it. But there is
a light at the end of the tunnel. Because for
every bad piece of news, there is a good piece
of news out there. It's just going to come.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Yeah, what was it that really made you say, Okay,
TikTok is it I'm just going to start making these videos.
Were you experimenting with it at first or did you
kind of see the vision of how you were going
to communicate and then relentlessly follow your instincts.

Speaker 2 (54:22):
Yeah, I mean I just think like it was like
that first video that really went viral when I got
and when I say viral, like when it got like
five thousand views. That to me, it was like, oh
my god, I'm viral.

Speaker 1 (54:31):
Like it's yeah, I've done it.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
I've done it right. Like, I think TikTok was like
the easiest platform for me where it's truly like the
amount of work into making these videos. I mean these
videos take me two minutes to make. I don't edit them.
There were one cut. Like it's super quick, super easy,
and it's just like the authenticity factor, Like I was
already scrolling an hour and a half every morning and

(54:54):
an hour and a half that night on TikTok. Why
not scroll five minutes less and make a video instead?
What I just started doing and now it's like whether
I'm in an airplane bathroom more in that at the gym,
it doesn't matter. The news is the news, and it's
just I'm gonna report. I don't I didn't look like
a hot ass mess, which I do ninety percent of
the time. But that's okay.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
I think that's great. I actually put mascara on today.
That was my big, my very big step.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
So my wife here before I came on.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
So I love it. I love it. Well, what feels
like the goal? Like you're doing such a good service,
You're you are bringing so many of us together. You
are who so many of us check on first thing
in the morning when we you know, get on our apps.
But for you, aside from just how you're helping lead folks, like,

(55:45):
is there kind of an ultimate personal goal for you
with the platforms across social media, the sub stack, which
by the way, is so good for our listeners at home,
the partner's perspective, if you're not subscribed, get it together.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
I think the ultimate goal is to bring Walter Kronkite.

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Back music to my ears and to empower.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
A next generation of journalists right to make it, to
give them the platform to report their own news, to
make sure that young people now can feel comfortable getting
behind a camera and talking about what they see in
front of them at their owns every single day, and
that they don't have to go through ten layers of
review at a mainstream media company, and that they're just

(56:27):
talking about the truth. So that's the goal that you
spun again. And for me personally, my dream is too,
potentially have a show one day where I can just
talk about facts for an hour, Yes, because I think
it's it's so needed in this age. Kind of like Walter.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Too, that is my dream. Should we do it together?
Should we do it in South Dakota? Feel like we're
bringing the news to you.

Speaker 2 (56:53):
We can ride on the horses with the Christy Gnome.

Speaker 1 (56:56):
Honestly, absolutely like my other goal in life to get
back to riding. So if I could do the two
things at the same time.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
I would not do anything. Actually that's my biggest fear
in life.

Speaker 1 (57:07):
Really. Okay, we can start small. We could just like
go hang out and you could stay on the ground.
Yeah yeah, my partner used to say that, and then
we baby stepped our way into it. And the first
time she got on a horse by the end of
that first hour, she was so happy she burst into yours.
So you never know, I've been on horses. Ah okay, okay,

(57:32):
it's a deeper fear. Okay, well this will be part
of the offline thing. I have a question, because now
you're really you're inside the baseball as it were. You
used to say that you hoped to maybe be the
president of the United States someday. Do you still think
that or are you like, absolutely not, Hell, no, goodbye,

(57:55):
I want no part of it.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
I am at the point of my life where I'm
no longer planning my life, if that make sense.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
I growing up, I always was like, in five years,
I'm going to do this, in ten years, I'm going
to do this. Well. If if I charted my course,
the course that I passed out were created the path
five years ago, ten years ago, it would have been
completely different than where I am now. So I'm just
kind of going with the flow, just enjoying every day
and taking each opportunity as it comes to me. If
I run for office one day, it's because I feel

(58:21):
like I was the best person for that job and
that no one else can do it better. But right now,
I'm just kind of enjoying what I'm doing, so we'll see.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
I like that I am at the point in my
life where I'm no longer planning my life right. Truer
words have never been spoken. I think every time I've
really gotten attached to a plan, even if I execute it,
I kind of look around and go, uh oh, right,
I think this was a really good idea on paper,
and now that I've done it, I don't know if it's.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
For me right right, And honestly for me, it's like,
if you gave me the opportunity between being Walter Kronk
or being the president, I don't know that I would
choose the presidency. Well, yeah, because you can do so
much more like in terms of impact as the nation's
truth teller than you can as a nation's leader.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
Yeah. It's really interesting. So when you look at those
sort of personal goals, and you know some of them
obviously revolve around work, but then there's there's a whole
other side of your life for you, for your joy,
for your family, Like when you look at the year ahead,
what feels like in your core your biggest work in progress?

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Good question, my honestly, myself and I'll be vulnerable for
a little bit in that, Like I'm going to go
to therapy for the first time ever this year, Like
I'm sorry you right. Like I'm going to work on
my relationship with my wife, were in our second year.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Of marriage, building a home, congrets.

Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
So like that, that to me is the most important
thing in my life, like my personal life and setting
those boundaries and building those relationships and so that's my
biggest work in progress the career, and funny enough has
always come easiest to me. It's it's the personal stuff
that's always been the hardest.

Speaker 1 (01:00:21):
Yeah, I get that sometimes. I think when when you
are so hyper intellectual, you know, you analyze data, you
understand policy, you you think about these big thirty thousand
foot issues that affect so many people, your community focused, right,

(01:00:44):
it can be really hard to then be in just
inside yourself, one of one and figure it out. Yeah,
and that's certainly been a been a journey for me.
So you've got friends walking this road.

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:02):
Yeah, I'm really I'm really grateful that we got to
do this finally today.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
Thank you so much, so thank you so much for
having me on.

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
I'm thrilled, and everybody better get on that substack. I
hope that, I hope that this week your dms are
filled with work and progress. Listeners being like, I'm all in.
When are we going to South Dakota.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
Let's do it.