March 13, 2025 • 63 mins
Content creator, actress, and now writer Dylan Mulvaney is reclaiming her narrative in her new book,"Paper Doll."
Prepare yourself for an energetic, entertaining, and candid conversation between Dylan and Sophia, where no topic is off-limits! They share behind-the-scenes stories about the Elton John Oscar Party, discuss which 'Sex and The City' character they most identify with, and get real about issues like dealing with transphobia and allyship in 2025. Dylan also reveals why she felt now was the right time to open up about the parts of her transition she didn’t share on “Days of Girlhood”, the "beergate" controversy, and celebrating queer joy in her new book!
"Paper Doll: Notes from a Late Bloomer" is available now!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Welcome
back to work in progress friends. I am so excited
to sit down with one of my favorite personalities, comedians, storytellers, girlies.
(00:27):
Today we are joined by Dylan mulvaney. She is here
to talk about her new book, Paper Doll Notes from
a Late Bloomer. In this book, Dylan pulls back the
curtain on her life, from the it girl online lifestyle
to witty and intimate reflections of her journey both pre
and post transition, family school memories, dealing with the Internet, theater, manifesting,
(00:54):
being a Broadway diva, all of it. Today, we are
going to dig into the emotional journey of identity. We're
gonna laugh quite a bit about how ridiculous life can be,
and we're going to talk about why this book is
a love letter to every single person who stands up
for queer joy. Let's dive in with Dylan mlvany.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
A. I'm here here, but it's funny because I feel
we did just see each other two days ago. We did,
but we didn't get enough air time.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
No, and that was also a bit of a whirlwind.
It's such a great event.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yes, tell the people overwhelming. Tell people where we were.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So we were at the Elton John Aids Foundation Giant
Academy Awards fundraiser, amazing gala dinner.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, chapel Roane. Oh my god, you've been to this before?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
How many times? Uh?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Three?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Maybe? Okay? I think this was my first one. I'm
also really happy because I've been on a few podcasts
lately where like they're like, this comes out in five months,
but this one will actually come out soon so we
can talk about it.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
But that's because this is coming out.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Because we're talking about my book, and my book comes
out next week, and I'm so excited. I I'm sending
you the whole package that's going to be coming with
my lush bath bomb and everything.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
But you love a bath bomb.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I'm upset. Do you take baths?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I should?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I can already take this. ADHD is going to be
kicking in for both of us pretty soon.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
It's hard for me to sit in a bath.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I well, yeah, I think that. I like to bring
all my activities, so I like a book, I like
to memorize lines in the bath. I like to I
do a computer. But you can't learn the hard way.
I've lost like maybe three phones in one laptop in
the bathtub, dropped done, but you're alive. I'm here, Apple.
That's the one thing that really got going is like
(02:57):
if you if it goes in, you're not going to
will survive.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, okay, it's a glowing endorsement.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Really, but I feel like my voice is kind of
starting to give Sophia Bush a little bit after our
night out.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
After night I turned into a pumpkin. And I don't
know if it was the fact that I was wearing
the biggest heels I've ever worn in my life, where
if life has just been so intense, you know, in
the current horror times that I'm emotionally exhausted, But once
Chapel was done, it was like I ceased being plugged
(03:32):
into the battery and I just I shut down and
I had to.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Go to bit you left that I was going to say,
I didn't see you. But that was what was crazy
about then A whole new group of people because there
was the after party to the party, yes, and so
it was like a whole new but we had been
there for hours and hours and so that that was
a lot in a good way. It was a lot
and we're at the same table. We had some really
cute people with us, cute unter twohand so adorable mckayl
(04:00):
the Jay Rodriguez. Absolutely, Oh, I love seeing her. It's
always so fun to see Bobby. Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Yes, and you were you with who's your coworker that
you are?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That was my manager, manager. Yes, he's so cute and such.
He's like my best friend and manager.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, he's so lovely. And then Ashland and I were there,
and Renee, our sweet friend, Renee Stubbs came with us,
and yeah, it was just a great night. We had
a nice crew.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
You know. What did bother me was that I didn't
feel like people were lively enough for Chapel Rome. I
didn't see enough dancing like people were in it. But
I'm used to like thrusting my body for that h
O T T O G. There wasn't a ton of
room too.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
There wasn't a lot of room every I felt like
we were doing very tiny.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
It was yeah, but I will say it felt like
watching queer history like while them singing together. It was incredible, unreal.
And I was standing next to her dad for a
while and it was like watching him kind of like
take it in was really sweet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
We talked a lot about it on Money Day after,
you know, we were all kind of recapping the night
and watching the way Elton looked at her and watching
the way she was looking at Elton. It felt, yeah,
like such a such a historic moment across these generations
of queerness and activism and advocacy, and I don't know,
(05:23):
it made me really emotional.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It was the that was where the gays were, like
we were in that room. And I saw Chapel in
twenty twenty three at the Wiltern in LA and the
only thing that I could compare it to was that
that scene in Rocketman where like everyone's in the doing
the crocodile rock and everyone starts to float off the
you know, like off their feet into the air. And
(05:44):
that is how I felt at this concert of like,
you know, maybe like nine hundred people watching Chapel and
then now seeing her do that like it it kind
of had that like she's now like my Elton John
for so many people who have grew up with Elton John,
and I just thought, oh that was fun. I had
a good time too.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Did you like the party?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I liked the party, I got to see lots of friends,
and but I went to a West Hollywood gay bar afterwards,
which is it's a rare occasion that I do that.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
But you did it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I was in Taco Bell at the end of the night.
Did you order food?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I was honestly so tired that I didn't even order
late night tacos, which is rare for me.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Where would you order from?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Oh my god? So there's so many good places in
La There's we have Tacos nineteen eighty six. We have Weisawtos.
We have Cactus, which is really my.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I don't know any og. I just get Taco Bell.
Isn't that so sad? Oh?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I have to take you?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah, you're going to say this.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
We have a tour.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
We have a tour and now we have a little time.
There's Taco Do's events now. Yes, And I think that
yesterday was it was a bad hangover day for me.
Today I feel alive. I feel like I want to
be a little more selective about not going to too
much stuff. Yeah, where did I saw you again? On?
What was the other thing that I saw? I can't Oh?
(07:04):
Women of the Year? Yeah time, Oh my god? And
that one was uh Levey or you know the singer
the uh Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
She was wonderful.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
He did that song keep on Going with Your Crazy Dreams,
like to your it was like to your twelve year
old self, I think, And I was like, I don't
think my twelve year old self would have ever imagined
being at this like Women of the Year for Time
gala with like all these icons. Like I was like
kept flashing because I felt really tired, and I was like,
oh do I want to go to this? And I
looked around and was like, Oh my god, how lucky
(07:38):
am I to be in this room with all these gals.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, it was so special. It's really cool, And I
want I think about that for you and what an
amazing sort of connection to that song, because you know,
we talked about this a little bit last time you
came on the bus.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
It was basically a year ago. Yeah, I feel like
I'm part of the pod family.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Now are and I love it. But I you know,
I always think about how you would interact with your
younger self. And one of the things that I think
is so beautiful in the book is that you actually
dedicated it to your oldest best friend Lily Hi Lily,
and I loved watching you tell her that the book
(08:18):
is dedicated to her. You know, you wrote the girl
who helped show me the way. What what does it
feel like now to sort of look back at your
younger self, you know, the girl that Leve is saying
to the girl that you grew up with, and Lily
a girl that she always recognized in you, even perhaps
(08:39):
before you did. It must be so surreal from this
place to look back at it.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Well, I think that so little of like what's happening
right now feels like normal, And it still feels like
I'm either living in a dreamer or a nightmare. And
Lily is like the one constant that like when I'm
around her, it reminds me of what life looked like before,
not only transition, but like this industry and in this town,
(09:07):
and having her here with me, going to these events,
you know, being my plus one is like it's a dream.
We met when we were ten doing high school musical.
She was in the basketball ensemble. I was Ryan, and
she was pissed that she wasn't Sharpey. But I think
that like having that person that has known you longer
(09:29):
than you know anyone, and has loved you through all
the different chapters. I think it feels really good because
I feel like I'm still constantly meeting people trying to
like either you know, convince them of what it is
that I want to do or who I am or
what my identity should look like for them, because it's
the way that I see myself. But for her, I
(09:49):
don't have there's no explanation necessary. Who is your lily
like from back in the day.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Oh my gosh, I moved a lot as a kid,
and so I we don't have so many people who
stretch like way way wait, probably I don't really have
anybody before middle school. And there's four of us from
my middle school in high school that are still really close.
But my like my my Lily is my best friend. Yeah,
(10:17):
you know, we've been at it for almost twenty years together.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And where'd you meet?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
We met at a conference way back in the day
before they were cool or like branded, you.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Know, a conference queen. So yeah, bush, Well, that is
one thing I will say I was thinking about when
because you know, we talked about going to Paris together
last year and oh was that even maybe was that
before we did the podcast? Or I think it was alf.
I think it was after we had a really fun
trip to Paris for a conference and a lovely man
(10:51):
that worked at CIA was there and he's like, you
know who always will show up, you know when you
ask her and when you need her for something is
Sophia Bush. And so like you've been doing in this
for a long time and the best way, and like Sowet,
you really are someone that people trust and also that
like you come through for people in really big ways.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I think showing up is really important. Ye, And it's
certainly a love language for me. I know how meaningful
it is when people do it for me. And I
think you know the way Nia and I bonded and
built our friendship, you know, out of that space, she
cracked a joke like why is the girl from TV
or taking notes like a court stenographer?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And I looked back at her and I said, I
went to journalisms called my notes are very good? Do
you need a copy? And she was like yeah. And
then we've been best friends ever since. And I think
for us, we've always been really mission aligned. And it's
weird to me when when mission isn't part of you know,
someone's life or their their ethos, and I think it's
(11:56):
probably why so many of us find each other, because yes,
you want to be creative and tell stories and have joy,
and you also want to make the world around you
a little kinder.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And we want to have a reason. Like even it
drives me crazy if I'm doing like a photo shoot
and I don't understand, like who is this for? What
is that? You know, it might just be a picture
and I might look pretty, but like is there what
else is here to like go off of? And no
matter what it is, I think I want to figure
out what is the reason behind something? And why am
(12:28):
I doing it? Why am I writing this book? Why
did you make this podcast? Why? Like there has to
be something other than the surface behind it. Even if
it is just to like bring a little joy or
to make someone laugh like that that can be enough
in some cases.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
But why did you want to write the book?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I wanted to write the book. I think at first
this book has become a lot of different things because
I sold it really early on around days of Girlhood,
and I thought I was gonna be this fluffy little
piece of you know, fun for people to have on
their coffee table about you know, diary entries for my
first year, and I grew up reading like Chelsea Handler
(13:12):
and all these really fun, you know, female comedian books.
So I wanted to make people laugh and I wanted
to be a little raunchy. And then once beer Gate happened,
I knew that it needed to be something very different,
and so it ended up being this thing that was
deeply healing for me and I because I still in
(13:35):
some ways had this like bowling ball sitting on my chest,
not being able to articulate what happened or how I
felt about it, and I wanted people to know because
I built my platform on telling people things, and I
think this feels like a much safer medium than social
media does right now for me, And I think it's
(13:56):
it's something that I never thought I would get to
write a book and my life. So it's, i think,
probably the thing I'm most proud of now and I'm
scared because I love it and I don't know yet
how the world is going to interpret that. But would
you ever write a book?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I've been dodging the question for about eight years.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
And now you can't because you're holding my hand.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Here we are. Yeah, people have approached me a few
times about it, and I think I'm finally in a
place where I'm ready to think about that. I think
there was a time where it felt when my team
(14:41):
first came to me with the idea. At first it
felt a little premature, And now I think I understand
that feeling better because I understand so many things about
myself better. But it's terrifying to.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Think about it. I think if you just don't frame
it as like a memoir, like I always think.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Of, like, yeah, come on, like, we're not eighty right,
I can't, I write, we can't.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
And that's what I really because some people still classify
this like as a memoir. So I'm so scared to
say memoir, Like is that because I feel like I'm
from like Wisconsin and I'm talking about this book that
I wrote called Them, and it's not a memoir. It's
like it's a hard word to say. Can you say memoir? Memoir?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Memoir?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Okay, Okay, we're settling on it.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
It helps if you if you memo, yeah, if you
try to sound a little bit like the like a
phone sex operator memoir memoir me, it comes out easier.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Right. Oh my god, that's a beautiful bag is that
your purse.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
It is.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Love it and it will fit a memoir into Babies.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
With Adhd sat together for a podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
So I I like that. I call it my like
quarter life crisis book, and I think because it's very
specific in the timeline, it's about my transition, it's about
after beer Gate. We do have some essays that flash
back to, you know, my childhood, but not in a
way that feels like this is everything that I have
(16:08):
to offer from age zero to twenty six and and
that's all, you know, that could never revisit any of
these topics. I wanted it to feel like Chelsea Handler
did a lot of kind of essays early on that
I really like loved reading as a teenager because it
felt like I didn't know that we were allowed to
(16:30):
comment on our lives, you know. And it kind of
also kind of carry Bradshaw in the way that like
she was writing about things so messily and I haven't
gotten to talk a lot about like sex or religion
or things you know online. That felt a lot more
fun to put into a book.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah. Yeah, And now a word from our sponsors who
make this show possible. And I do think it's really
important I like the references you make. I love Chelsea's books.
(17:10):
And to your point, one of the things I think
we need more of is a little bit of permission
to be messy.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Humans are messy my house right now. Oh it's a state.
I also like, I'm one of those people that like
I will like have If I'm like, I clean my
entire place. It looks amazing for about fifteen minutes, and
then something happens and I don't know what it is,
but it then looks almost worse than it did before
(17:39):
I cleaned it. So that's I think like. And I've
seen a few the reviews are starting to roll out,
and some of them are like, oh that you you know,
it can be trickier to find the timeline or it
can you know what are we in a journal entry
or are we in an essay? And there's a little
bit of that. But I kind of love that it's
not about the life linear nature, but rather like what
(18:01):
I'm learning and how I learned it versus when. But God,
I feel like life sometimes only does your life right
now feel like it's getting messier or you're cleaning it up?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Oh I think I started a big glean up a
couple of years ago. My life feels very full and
I am incredibly grateful for that, and I would like
to have a little more space, and so I'm trying
to kind of recalibrate certain things. Yeah, because I actually
(18:38):
really like my life and I want to be present
for more of it. Yes, and that feels special.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I feel the same. I feel like this has been
a really interesting time. I've taken on a bit too much.
I've learned, and so I'm going to get through that
and then try to clean shop in other ways. But
I think my biggest thing is I like to show
up one hundred percent for whatever it is that I'm doing,
whether that's an interview or a you know, a performance
(19:05):
like I want, like I did the Edinburgh Fringe Festival
last year, and I during that time, you know, I
had all these other things that needed attention or my
eyes on and I basically was like, No, all I
want to do right now is work on this show.
And I would be so disappointed in myself if I
don't give it my all and be like, oh, well,
I was trying to do a thousand other things. So
(19:27):
that is the part that scares me of like being
a multi hyphen it and then being like, what that
actually means of being able to put your attention to
different things at the same time.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I feel that as well, because I wonder if I
just did one thing at a time, would I maybe
accomplish more at the end. But also I have to
I realize I have to be gentle with myself and
also trust myself. I am curious about a.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Lot I know on our ADHD wants us to be
doing a lot at the same time.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
How did you actually start down the path of comedy
and writing and the fringe festival? Like, oh, now you've
written a book. You create so much, and I want
to know.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
How, because I don't think anyone else is letting me
do that, Like, no, I'm not someone that's being particularly
like tapped on for a thousand different stories to tell.
And so I think right now the best option is
to tell my own, because I'm such an active member
(20:31):
of my life and wanting to be in this industry
knowing that these are some going to be some of
the really integral years to what the rest of it
looks like, and so I don't want to sit at
home waiting for you know, I would love to just
be an actress, and I would love to just wait
for the auditions to come in and for the parts
to play. Right now, that's you know, limited for trans women,
(20:53):
especially me, who I think is you know, shares quite publicly,
so I'm always trying to carve out other ways of
filling time. And then I think what's fun is when
somebody does approach me with an idea or an opportunity,
I can fit it in amongst what I've already created.
But I'm not waiting for anyone else, And I think
(21:17):
there is something frustrating and can be exhausting of like
always trying to manufacture and trying to tell, you know,
a story or get something off the ground. But I'm
proud that that I'm I feel quite I'm usually quite
sub in certain situations, but I feel very dumb when
(21:38):
it comes to my career and my trajectory in my creativity.
Like I think I'm really after finding my gender identity.
I was like, oh, this is what being an artist
can be now that I've like figured some things out
within myself. And I think maybe had things come a
(22:03):
little easier as far as like I, you know, was
on Broadway right now doing eight shows a week. I
probably wouldn't have written this book, and I probably wouldn't have,
you know, started my podcast or any of these things
that I think I need, we need right now. And
I do think transjoy can look a lot of different ways,
(22:24):
but this book is probably the loudest version of it
for me in this moment.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I love that for you. Yeah, And what it strikes
me as when you talk about sort of taking control,
it's it's agency. You are taking agency of your creativity.
You are you are making the things that you want
and need that your younger self probably needed too. And
(22:50):
I loved something that you said. Rolling Stone just did
a great profile on you on the book, and it
was such a sweet way to clap back at people
who are so upset by transjoy. You said, I'm not
trying to influence anyone to do anything other than see
a Broadway musical.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Period. Well that's not like, that's it, that's my transagenda. Yeah,
and hopefully that broad musical would have a transperson in it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But would be wonderful it should be you.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
But at the very least, go see fucking cats, you know,
Like I'm I just think that people are so easy
to project identities and activism and all these things onto
you when if you really listen to what the person
is trying to say or you know, what I've also
(23:37):
think is crazy as I've done interviews where I'm like,
I am not an activist, and then they title the
interview activist Dylan mulvany, and so it is really crazy
how sometimes loud and clear and articulate you have to
be in order to get people to figure out what
it is you want.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
So what would you say you want?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I would like to be a Broadway diva who gets
to tell stories, sometimes my own, sometimes fictional. I want
to make people laugh, especially at some of the dark things,
like through transness and identity. I would love to make
people think. I think that's something that's newer on like
(24:18):
my list of desires, because for a long time I
didn't know that I could be vulnerable, like publicly. That
was kind of against the laws of my family, you know,
we were supposed to keep those things to ourselves. But
now I love it and I think that I I
would love to find love in the hard places and
(24:39):
help other people figure that out too. But in a
lot of those things, you know, could be as stupid
as in a sketch or in you know, a musical
or what they don't have to all be in you know,
at conferences or you know, speaking at the White House
or what, you know, whatever it is that that some
people also might assume that means.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I think when you stand up for people, stand
up for yourself, stand up for others, you can kind
of get cast as a very serious person.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
So many people think I'm so serious, and then people
hang out with me and they're like, oh, you're weird
and really quirky and funny.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Right, we know how to have a good time. Yeah.
I actually will say though, some of the most serious
people are the ones that like to have the most fun.
But then people expect that of potentially us. We're in
a way that I don't think is always fair. I think, like,
I love letting loose with people, and I think people
(25:37):
can tell that from social media. But I also I'm
definitely not the trans girl that is ready to like,
you know, give you every single statistic and talk about
every single you know bill or you know, anti trans
legislation in the works. And I feel guilty about that sometimes,
but then I realize I'm like, oh, but there's like
(26:00):
so many other dolls that are really good at that,
and I can do my best to figure out how
to connect them when those opportunities come my way or
you know, they've we have great conversations, like I'm going
on a bunch of talk shows next week and I've
talked to a bunch of dolls about you know, what,
what should I say? What do you think is important
for the community? You know, trying to stay really proactive
(26:24):
so that when those questions do come up, I'm ready,
but not leading with it.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Well, one thing I think is really important is that
that can't just fall on you, right, It can't just
be on trans women to advocate for trans women, since
women need to show up and advocate for you in
the same way that when we talk about gender based
violence around the world, that's actually that's a male problem,
(26:51):
that is a statistically male problem. If we scream into
the void about what women go through in the world
and men don't join us to say men should stop
assaulting women, right, we're in a vacuum. And so I
think I'm so glad you feel like you get to
be your full self, and I love that you have
a community that helps you figure out what you should
(27:14):
use those platforms to say in the moment, and I
want other folks to be reminded that we have to
show up for you too.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yes, thank you. But it's also fascinating what's happening, I
think when it comes to allyship, because the you know,
far right extremists are getting really good at trying to
scare our allies away. And even this was an example
is getting my makeup done by a really lovely gay
man last week, and he was talking about this transvestigation
(27:48):
over this very famous woman that you know, all these
people are claiming is a trans woman and all the
reasons why they think she's trans, and I had to
explain to him that it was like deeply problematic because
you know, whether this person was trans or not, they
were trying to cast her as this like monster or
(28:09):
this person hiding you know, secrets or deceiving the public.
And and I had to explain that like what they
now want to do is make cis women believe that
like being called trans or you know, being accused of
being a trans person is like the worst, you know thing,
(28:29):
when in reality it's it's like most transgirls I know
are really cute and and they we've got our you know,
we've got we're working on it, we're getting it together.
But I find it very problematic that a lot of
allies don't always know what is transphobic, like like and
you know, we've got to figure out those conversations. But
(28:51):
if if it's pushing a notion that like transness is
evil or you know problematic, like, chances are it's probably transphobic. Yeah,
And and so it's it's interesting getting to still exist
in around so many icons, and especially these women that
(29:13):
I call friends and and that support me publicly like
I had Lady Gaga last year post on International Women's
Day or you know, standing up for me. And and
that's the kind of where I'm like, holy crap, like
there's there's still the good ones, and I'm here with
you right now. I think that it makes me sad
(29:33):
to think that certain people would be scared to you know, uh,
be seen with the trans person or to work with
us or hire us. But there's so much power in
saying no, I'm not going to live in that fear
or that you know people are going to boycott my
(29:54):
product or not watch this television show or unfollow because
you support you know a transperson. That's that is, it's
we can't give into that, We cannot give into that fear.
I'm so tired of being scared.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. One of
the things I think is really beautiful about the book
is you do claim so much joy, you do share
so much happiness with us, and you also aren't shying
(30:30):
away from the things that have been hard, and you
do talk about beer Gate, and you do really bring
us into what it feels like to be targeted by
these far right hate campaigns. But the thing that hit
me so hard actually is something you share in the
(30:51):
first thirty pages of the book, and you talk about
how so many external opinions. You know, you're one person
on the internet and millions of people can comment at you,
and talk about how so many external opinions can can
create so much noise, so much mental and emotional noise,
(31:13):
that your darkest thoughts, your self loathing, your critique that
all of us have inside of us, can suddenly be
parroting the worst of the comment section. Yes and how
And reading your words when you talked about it, like
took my breath away because I know exactly how that feels.
(31:34):
It honestly made me gasp, Like I heard myself gasp
when I read it, because I know how paralyzing that
feeling is, and.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
How do you get I think, how do you identify it?
How do you get out that crazy is? When you can,
then when you have made enough progress to see that
you are, you're quite literally at a crossroads where you're like,
I'm either going to believe this what they're saying about myself,
and I'm going to take it on as part of me,
or I'm going to acknowledge that what they're saying is
(32:06):
not true about myself because I know who I am
and the people that I love know who I am,
and and let that be the course that you take.
And I actually, even just yesterday, even that we were
talking about the Elton John party, I was interviewing people
on the carpet and I was reading all these comments about, oh,
(32:26):
you know, this girl's so annoying, she's standing too close
to people, she won't let her you know, people get
a word, all these things, and I went I almost
was like, oh, I'm going to make a video now
being like, yeah, I'm annoying, I know it. And then
I was like oh my gosh, like it was like
a clear cut you just changed your opinion about yourself
(32:46):
based on these other people. And there were plenty of
other comments that loved it and that were, you know,
behind what I was doing, but those other ones were louder,
And I think what I had to do was not
only kind of take some distance from taking in information
about myself, which is so hard to not look, but
(33:09):
I had to be very clear about who who I was.
I think I spent kind of the last two years
since Beergate getting very specific about what I know about
myself to be true, so that now when I put
a book out and have a lot of new critique
coming my way, that I can stand behind those things.
(33:30):
I know I'm a musical theater girl. I know that
I talk too much. I know that well that even
me just saying that that was a projection of someone else.
That I love to talk is how I'll rephrase that.
That I feel really beautiful most of the time, but
that I also can sometimes get in my head and
that's often linked to dysphoria. I know that I love
(33:53):
to be raunchy, and that that's not something to be
ashamed of about myself. These are little things that I
think are helpful. Then when I read those, I can
kind of go down the checklist and be like, Okay,
so that's it's not here already, and I don't think
we need to add it. It's just it's so crazy
(34:15):
how great social media can be and then how toxic
it and even the I think it goes back to
the press too in the media of how they're pushing transphobia,
because a lot of what they're saying and these headlines
are like deeply transphobic, but they're very click baity and
those are other like those Actually I have an easier
time laughing at because it's like it feels like this,
(34:38):
you know, news source that couldn't be more incorrect, versus
like seeing a person's name on a screen that's like
leaving a specific comment, because that feels, in a weird
way more tangible knowing there's like a human behind it.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah, where it's a bot though, what are bots could
just be a bot?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
I don't understand. Do you have do you have bots
are looked into bots?
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Oh, it's just it's relentless and it's.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
We need like a queer bot farm that like throws
the good stuff out there. Just imagine someone like doing.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Like sexy sassy commentary.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Oh that would be not who's going to pay for that?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
I don't know. We need a benevolent it.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Was really billion Yeah, we need a gay billionaire to
put out.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
But I don't think there are any benevolent billionaires. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I hate it. It's tricky, right, weird.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
I don't know, but if we win the power Ball,
it could be that's.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
What, and then it's going to be us making a
good bot farm.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah, I'm I'm here for that.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Is that an oxymoron? A good bot farm? Is it bot?
By the way, what is robot? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Like a robot, it's a it's a little digital terrorist essentially.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I'm also getting scared of, like how we're our future
is going to go with robots?
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah, me too. Everything's crazy. I'm like, did nobody watch Terminator?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
What are we doing with the I don't like the
self driving cars?
Speaker 1 (35:56):
No creeps me out. It all creeps me out. But
at least we're entering into a future where your book exists.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Woo. I bet it's going to get banned so fast.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
You know what's really sort of hilarious but sad about
you saying that is. My partner was like, what is
this enormous box of book? What is this? Like you
need any more books? And I said, oh no, sorry,
last week I had to buy all the books the
DOJ band just in case. Oh my god, we're that
in it. And I'm going, this is so weird that
I'm turning my house into a book archive just in case.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Well, I mean and say that I write in the book,
I say like, I hope the words on this page
last longer than the videos on my profile. And TikTok
got banned for a second there, and I was like, oh,
I thought this was going to be like a nostalgic
fifty years from now sentence, And now it's like the reality.
But a lot harder to get rid of something physical
like this than to, you know, have a profile disappear.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Line, push something and have it go.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
And I think what I wrote about meeting Judy Bloom
in my book and I got to interview her during
literally the height of beer Gate, and what had happened
right before I walked into that interview was I got
slammed coming out of a woman's bathroom in the hotel
that I was interviewing Judy Bloom, and they you know,
(37:15):
were saying horrible things to me up in my face.
They had totally trespassing. But then I had to walk
into this interview with Judy and I swear things just
happened when they're supposed to do, and you see the
people that you needed because I felt so small in
that moment, and then getting to talk to her, you know,
this is a woman who had her books banned years
(37:37):
and years ago in like the seventies and the eighties,
and and she looked at me at the end and
she was like, do not let anyone stop you from
sharing your story, from writing it down, from putting it
out there. She's like, there's so much good to be done.
She was like, there were so many people early on
that tried to make me feel like I was, you know, evil,
(37:57):
or that I was doing something that was corrupting the U.
And she was like, but you have to know what
your the purpose is of something, and she was like,
you've got to put it out there. And so like
hearing that from like Judy Bloom, that's somebody that's a
little bit better to be listening to than Fox News.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I would say, well, yeah, or some insane person bombarding bathrooms.
It's so gross. It's so gross, But you know what
is is wild to me, And I think this is
something people miss again because you know, they have to
create clickbait and rage in some ways, so they have
to make everyone afraid of everyone. And there's no way
(38:35):
that seeing you exists in the world and be happy
is going to turn some sisc hid trams. But what
I know to be true is that a four year
old who does what you did and says to your mom,
God made a mistake, I'm in the wrong body could
(38:55):
see you and know that what they're saying isn't crazy
and that they're going to be okay someday. Yes, And
that to me feels like such an important thing in
the world to just make sure that people don't feel alone.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Right. And I've now what's been fascinating since talking about
that moment with my mom, Like so many people, even
in the industry, have like come to me and been like, hey,
my kid is you know going through this or And
it gives people permission to you know, have conversations and
to like get to the bottom of things in a
(39:38):
way that I think there was so much shame about before,
and I even told my family, I was like, I
didn't paint us as these like picture perfect people, because
we aren't and that's not what our family is. But
hopefully other people getting to see our progress and that
the fact that we all still love each other and
I feel so supportive by them is actually way more
(39:58):
beneficial than me painting it as like a pretty picture.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the hardest things
about being a human in the public eye is that
you very rarely get to go through something and process
it and then talk about it when it's done. You
kind of have to process in real time out loud,
and I think that can be very toxic because then
your life gets treated like it's a TV show or
(40:24):
a storyline, and you're like.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
No, this is happening to me, and it feels like
it will never change. I now feel really removed from
certain ideas that were made about me, like even being
the trans beer girl, and now years later, I'm like, oh,
I'm doing all these other things that have nothing to
do with that. And I thought that was going to
be the way that I was interpreted forever, but it's not.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
But it's not, And I think It's beautiful to see
you go through certain things publicly process them and then
be able to reflect. But I love that some of
the stuff about you and your family, you've been able
to do both. You've been able to do the real time,
but you've also been able to take us in the
book on this journey backwards and yeah, you've been honest
(41:10):
about it. And I think honesty actually as a reader
makes me feel so hopeful for my own family, for
other families.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Well, I think you can tell when some especially if
you're like reading something of someone's like, you can tell
if how it's being spun as far as like, and
I was like, I want to be as factual as
I can with like how these moments went down, so
that people can feel whatever way that they feel about them.
And then there are moments where I really get quite
emotional and show them kind of how I was feeling
(41:41):
mentally versus like what was actually, you know, happening in
the world around me. And a lot of that I
think in the book kind of slowed where I went
in tod Ayahuasca in Peru and I wrote about you
know this sort of like I wanted this it to
be this quick fix and what it really did was
it like started something in myself that I was gonna
(42:05):
end up. I'm still thinking about so many of the
things that I found while I was down there on
that's weird to call it a drug. It really feels
more like a medicine. It's a medicine. Yes, would you
ever do aahuasca have? Oh? Wow? Okay, we I don't
even know if we've talked about I haven't. Oh, we
need to. And it's It's also funny because I think
(42:26):
like when I told people that I was going down
there to do that, there was either certain people were like,
that's amazing, I've always wanted to do that, tell me everything.
And then there are some people who feel really uncomfortable
by the idea of like doing something a different kind
of way. And that was like my work in progress
was to try it in a way that was not
(42:50):
offered to me as a young person or in my
early years, Like just you know if when when really
hits the fan doing in a different way, well, I
think a lot of.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
People are scared of anything expansive. I think it's why
so many people are afraid of trans people, because you
challenge boundary and binary and you say, there's a more
expansive way to be a human. You know, our friend
Aloke talks about this all the time, that the freedom
that you have to claim to be trans is terrifying
(43:26):
to people that don't feel free in their own lives.
And for me, you know, ten years ago, when I
had this, like deeply prepared for you know, therapy involved
all the things experience. It was part of a larger
process of how do I begin to not be stuck
(43:47):
in this way of thinking? How do I begin to
interrupt a feedback loop and see other options that are
probably here but that I'm not seeing right. And I
think when you can be well researched and safe and
obviously you know.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Ready, you're ready when in whatever way ready can feel,
because it doesn't always you know, you won't feel one
hundred percent ready.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
But sure, But I think that's true for anything. And
when something calls to you when you're when claiming who
you are out loud, calls to you when when saying
you know, I built this whole life and I checked
off everything on my list like a good girl, and
I really don't like it. And I think maybe I
deserve to like my life, that I learned a few
(44:37):
years ago is a radical act, yes, And I think
I think sometimes when you are radically courageous, people really
will shot on you for it. But some people will
also walk up and hug you and say you saved
my life, and that makes it worth it. I just
wish the Internet was less prone to sitting on people.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I sometimes I forget because I was, you know, fourteen,
the only like gay person out at my high school.
Like I forget that it is there are so many
adults that are still grappling with these decisions, that are
living these life, have children, have you know, jobs that
like that. They are trying to make the most difficult
(45:17):
decision to be themselves possible. And I think I have
to always remember that it's not always as easier available
to people as someone like me who was really privileged
to although my family was conservative and Catholic, like I
didn't get thrown out of the house, and I found
these pockets of community like in theater, where like some
(45:39):
people don't have those places to like see gay people thriving. Yeah,
so the Internet is really good in that way because
you know, people get to watch things like this.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
But I.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Think that it's I don't know. This book coming out
in twenty five is crazy because it's a radical act. Yes,
but and even when it was decided they would come out,
we didn't know who the president was going to be,
We didn't know what trans legislation was going to look like.
And so I have to trust that this is the
(46:12):
right time. And I don't want to become a poster
child again, like how that felt like it went down
in twenty twenty two. But I feel charged up in
a really good way, which is yummy. How when do
you feel the most, like when you're feeling like really exhausted.
(46:33):
How long does it take you to get back into
like progress mode, or when you've like had a big
like what feels like maybe a failure, or when you
know something doesn't go your way that you've been working
so hard towards. How how long does it take you
to bounce back? And then when do you know that
you're ready?
Speaker 1 (46:53):
I don't know. I think it's sort of a case
by case thing, something that I have learned monitor for myself.
As you said earlier, you went, oh, look at me,
I'm I'm already acknowledging something nasty someone said to me
and apologizing for it when I find myself so wounded
by negativity that I'm figuring out how to answer for it.
(47:20):
When you know, the next time I have a MIC,
I'm going to have to figure out how to gently address.
Then I know I need a beat before you know,
I see it. I don't need to explain everything to everyone.
And it's a weird thing because the Internet will critique
you if you don't, and then if you do, they
(47:40):
critique you for oversharing, and no matter what you do,
you can't get it right. And so I have to
take a breath and say, this is not a normal
human experience for there to be one of us and
multimillions of people talking at us all the time. Yeah,
So if I know that, how can I then try
to use it for good? Remind myself that it's also
(48:02):
not my real life, and be in my life as
much as I can, and that even when I can
ask myself those questions, I know I'm in a good
place because I'm making adjustments for my humanity right, not
for what something looks like.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
And is Ashland the one that helps you take a
beat and like figure out what it is you are
called to say or what your you know, real opinion
is on certain things before you share that public like
who is who's the because for me it is a
lot of lily, it's my life, coach Morey, it's me
and a local couple all the time. You know, there
(48:42):
are those people do you have, like who do you
find yourself in those tough situations?
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Going to and now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
What I think I have had to come to terms
with having real, joyful, like deep, silly, expansive love in
(49:13):
my life is that I have actually done so much
by myself for so long. I tend to show up
for other people, but I very rarely ask people to
show up for me. And I am learning to ask.
I am learning that I don't have to do it
all by myself. I am learning to call my you know,
(49:36):
wonderful coven of brilliant women and just say, like, what
the fuck are we going to do with this?
Speaker 2 (49:44):
I will say, I feel like there's so many people
in this world that have to find every other opinion
with their own before they conform theirs, And so it
is kind of iconic in a way that you can
do things independently. But I will say the fact that
you have that like this like arsenal of incredible humans
to tap into, you should use it.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, and I'm working on that. And it feels nice
to not have so much weight on my shoulders all
the time. I I have a question for you, because look,
we're all obviously navigating our lives. But one of the
things that I feel excited about for you as your
(50:28):
friend is as you kind of name and claim all
your power. I feel like you're also in this fun
moment of starting to figure out who's going to pour
into your cup. And and it's different for you. You know,
you talked about being you know, a young out gay
(50:48):
and then having to really come to terms with the
fact that, oh, that's not my full self. I'm actually
I'm actually this woman yes that I've always felt in me.
How how does that experience shift how you date?
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Oh my god, because you're also so public. Yes, but
I will think about this tall glass of water, because
needs to be someone who is comfortable dating someone in
the public eye, is attracted to trans women, is comfortable
with maybe aspects of their life. You know, not that
I'm going to put a relationship on blast, but there
is a chance whether I speak or not that aspects
(51:28):
of their life could be affected by what I'm doing
and saying. So it almost has to be someone who
has like a kink for like an oversharing trans woman.
But like what I the most important thing is that
I cannot be with someone who I have any doubts
is ashamed to be with me. And because what I
(51:50):
have done so well is like start to let go
of the shame that I have around who I am.
So what would be the worst case scenario is me
attaching myself to someone else who then I start changing
myself based on how they're reflecting back to me and
what they're seeing in me and what they articulate to
me about myself. And so I really think it's going
(52:14):
to be so I actually it's a hot take, but
I would like it to be someone that has something
to do either with our industry or is in the
public eye already, so that like if I was with
this like doctor that you know there doesn't get rocked
on the daily mail because like there's just things.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
And maybe baptize someone in the public life fire.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I get that, yes, And so in a way there
would be some comfort in knowing, like, oh, this person
has their own thing going on as well, But I
think I'm really turned on by creativity, by drive. I
find it so like, what if I'm like out on
(52:55):
a date with someone and they're talking about all the
things they're doing, I get so horny because I'm like, oh,
this is someone who has like like dreams and ambitions
just the way that I am. So they're not gonna
if I come in, you know, I walk into the
house one day and I'm like, I want to do this, this,
this and this that. They're like, WHOA like? I think
I want like a yes human. And I've really I've
(53:17):
tried the hookup thing. I've found it to be really true.
La Is Honey, it's not what I mean.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
You've tried the hookup.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
I've tried the casual whether it's I mean, so I'm
so crazy, I'm so really weird. I've actually I only
have Riyah. I've been thinking about potentially deleting it just
because it hasn't yielded the greatest results. But I think
there what's the word, oh, demi sexual? I think maybe
(53:45):
chapel Rone was talking about in an interview about what
I like is I need to be emotionally connected with
someone beforehand, and especially I think being trans, I feel
really protective over my body and the fact that there's
still so many things changing with it, and I want
it to be someone that I like, Like, it is
(54:06):
hard for me to get to a place where I'm
like ready to like take my makeup off and like,
god rude. I was thinking about you know, oh, someone
was talking about like shower sex recently, and I was like, Okay,
that's my worst nightmare because I was like, not only
are the fake lashes you know they're coming off, but
like that is really it's such a vulnerable state to
be in. But I really hope that it's with someone
(54:30):
and I like older. I've always liked a mature soul,
But I hope it's with someone who is proud to
be with the trans person and is and who gets
a kick out of whatever it is that I'm doing
or want to do. Yeah, and I want to be
the same with them.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Yeah, I don't know, you got to think about I'm
looking for like twenty eight to fifty eight. Mask by
actual vibe feels gummy, you know, kind of like daddy,
but also you know, can be like soft as well.
Think on it. You've got you've got a pool of queers.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
Now, oh, I'm gonna really, I'm gonna think.
Speaker 2 (55:14):
And the other thing I used to did gay men,
and they were so much better than straight guys. I
had no idea what I was missing and like or
what that I had in that what I ended up
getting was not as good as I thought it was
going to be. And I have an essay called the
Kissing Bandit in the book where I talk about, you know,
just like what it felt like to have like the
(55:36):
straight male gaze on me for the first time, and
not the gaze, but the gaze, and I thought it
was going to feel so much better than it did.
It was. It was such a an empty confidence that
came from it. And you know, it can feel good sometimes,
but it doesn't make me feel as good as like
(55:58):
when a girl's hyping me up and know in the
bathroom it or you know, a phone call with Lily,
Like it's interesting to now I've I've kind of gotten
to look at life on both sides, like Joni Mitchell. Yeah,
and I love that I can see like the perks
of living life as a gay man versus as a woman.
(56:19):
What the how the queer community treats you depending on
what gender you are, you know, like how women treat you.
Oh and that changed a lot and it's still, you know,
evolving in something that I feel, I hope does not
digress because I feel like I have really taken the
(56:40):
not a back seat at all, like almost like the
passenger seat to the driver in learning from other gals. Yeah,
what do you feel like you're learning? I think I'm
learning that not all like I think I was. It
felt for a long time like it was CIS women
versus trans women, And I'm realizing there's a lot of
the girls are fighting in both categories, but that there
(57:03):
are a lot of CIS women who do not do
not see eye to eye on things as well. In
that to me gave me permission to not look at
us as these two different categories of people, but actually
see the nuance of what exists within womanhood and feminism
and knowing that, like even I'm watching the White Lotus
(57:25):
right now, and it's so interesting, like when you've got
like a we're looking at these are you have you
watched it yet? Like a friend group of women who
maybe have different political beliefs, and how that shifts, you know,
the conversations and the judgments, and I think that I
(57:48):
now have less of a desire to be accepted by
every single woman, and it's more of a desire to
be respect did by those that I deeply respect. Yes, yes, yeah,
and a lot of And I will say, like the
gals that I've loved and my role models growing up,
(58:10):
like now, some of which are like friends, and and
that is what a gift like that is has helped
show me that I I'm the kind of gal that
I I loved growing up and that I would continue
wanting to be.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
I love that for you, Love, You're the gal you
loved growing up.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
I'm so the city I've been watching so much of
and like I you know, there's this like fear I
think as a trans person that you are you know,
made out to be a caricature, or that you're taking
on aspects of of you know, other women or fictional women.
And so I did feel a little guilty. I was like, oh,
(58:51):
I love Audrey Heppern and I love her style, but
I don't want it to seem like I'm like cosplaying
as her. I love Charlotte from Sex and the City,
and you know, I feel so connected to her as
a character, but I don't want it to seem like
that's what I'm like trying to be. And then I realize, like,
oh no, that's just You're seeing things, whether it's in
a character or in a human or in a celebrity,
(59:11):
that you see within yourself and that have already existed.
And it's not that they're things that I'm putting on,
but it's things that I see in others that I
love and that I want to make even a little
brighter within me.
Speaker 1 (59:24):
One of the things you identify with, Yes, that you
feel represented by, that you feel that make you feel seen.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
Yeah, are what girl on Sex and City? Are you?
Speaker 1 (59:36):
I don't know? Probably, I mean, let's be honest, I'm
I think people probably would have thought Carrie. But I
think I'm a little more Miranda. My dad still can't
believe I'm not a lawyer. He's like, you love to argue,
you love to fight for justice.
Speaker 2 (59:51):
I see some Miranda there. I also think, like you
old an earnestness and an innocence still that is kind
of it gives.
Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
You Charlotte a ya a sweet angel.
Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Yes, because that is such a rarity and I like
that is honestly, when I think of our group of
friends and those that we hang out with, like, there
is that innocence that I love. We talked about it
last last year on the pod of like you know,
finding people that have Oh, and I loved. Jane Fonda
recently dd a podcast interview where she talked about optimism
(01:00:24):
versus hope. Yes, and so with Kerrie Washington.
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Yes, it was so good I.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Now because I feel like for so long I've been
like I am an you know, eternal optimist, and now
I'm like, oh, no, we're hopeful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
I'm hopeful.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
I'm still so hopeful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Is that going into this crazy year where literally our
rights are being stripped away and democracy might be lost?
But your book is coming out? Yes, it's the horrors
and the joy yep. Is it hope that feels like
you're work in progress right now? Or is it something
(01:00:59):
complete different?
Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Well, it's actually I think it's a balance of realism
versus hope. And for I think for a long time
I lived I'm a zero to one hundred person, one
hundred percent just hopeful in a way that I got
burned so many times because I wasn't taking into consideration
what could happen, or the realities of what it meant
(01:01:21):
to be trans in America, or the realities of living
in the public eye. I always assumed the best of everyone, yeah,
even the media, and it has it's bitten me enough
for me to know the possibilities of what that looks like.
And so I'm a little more cautious. But the hope
is that I can exist in a place where it's
(01:01:43):
the best case scenario and that the good things are possible,
and that my you know, vision board can come true.
And then it's the lack of when those things don't
happen or can't happen because of the year that we're
living in or the government that we have, or whatever
that might be, that I have a plan B, C
and D that can still you know, get me through
(01:02:07):
and that I can still live a full life hopefully.
But I'm not going to go to Plan B, C
or D before I try Plan A and And I
think that has been really crucial, Like even this year,
I don't have a vision. I'm always a vision board girl.
I've like I've always been able to manifest like magical things,
but it feels so out of the ordinary right now
(01:02:29):
that I have forced myself to like want certain things,
but I am approaching every single like opportunity. I'm like,
does this help me become a Broadway diva? I love that.
That's my vision board for this year is that question.
And there's like hope within that, and I think so
I will say, oh yes, thank you, Jane Fonda. Hope
(01:02:50):
is my work in progress right now.
Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Yeah, what's yours right now?
Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
You give me a lot of hope. I think slowing
down it's really hard for me.
Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Oh yeah, but I am.
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
I am just so ready for slow tender.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
We don't want to be everywhere and nowhere. We want
to be some places and giving one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
Oh I love you, oh so proud of you.
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Welcome
back to work in progress friends. I am so excited
to sit down with one of my favorite personalities, comedians, storytellers, girlies.
(00:27):
Today we are joined by Dylan mulvaney. She is here
to talk about her new book, Paper Doll Notes from
a Late Bloomer. In this book, Dylan pulls back the
curtain on her life, from the it girl online lifestyle
to witty and intimate reflections of her journey both pre
and post transition, family school memories, dealing with the Internet, theater, manifesting,
(00:54):
being a Broadway diva, all of it. Today, we are
going to dig into the emotional journey of identity. We're
gonna laugh quite a bit about how ridiculous life can be,
and we're going to talk about why this book is
a love letter to every single person who stands up
for queer joy. Let's dive in with Dylan mlvany.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
A. I'm here here, but it's funny because I feel
we did just see each other two days ago. We did,
but we didn't get enough air time.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
No, and that was also a bit of a whirlwind.
It's such a great event.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yes, tell the people overwhelming. Tell people where we were.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So we were at the Elton John Aids Foundation Giant
Academy Awards fundraiser, amazing gala dinner.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, chapel Roane. Oh my god, you've been to this before?
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
How many times? Uh?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Three?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Maybe? Okay? I think this was my first one. I'm
also really happy because I've been on a few podcasts
lately where like they're like, this comes out in five months,
but this one will actually come out soon so we
can talk about it.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
But that's because this is coming out.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Because we're talking about my book, and my book comes
out next week, and I'm so excited. I I'm sending
you the whole package that's going to be coming with
my lush bath bomb and everything.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
But you love a bath bomb.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I'm upset. Do you take baths?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I should?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I can already take this. ADHD is going to be
kicking in for both of us pretty soon.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
It's hard for me to sit in a bath.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I well, yeah, I think that. I like to bring
all my activities, so I like a book, I like
to memorize lines in the bath. I like to I
do a computer. But you can't learn the hard way.
I've lost like maybe three phones in one laptop in
the bathtub, dropped done, but you're alive. I'm here, Apple.
That's the one thing that really got going is like
(02:57):
if you if it goes in, you're not going to
will survive.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, okay, it's a glowing endorsement.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Really, but I feel like my voice is kind of
starting to give Sophia Bush a little bit after our
night out.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
After night I turned into a pumpkin. And I don't
know if it was the fact that I was wearing
the biggest heels I've ever worn in my life, where
if life has just been so intense, you know, in
the current horror times that I'm emotionally exhausted, But once
Chapel was done, it was like I ceased being plugged
(03:32):
into the battery and I just I shut down and
I had to.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Go to bit you left that I was going to say,
I didn't see you. But that was what was crazy
about then A whole new group of people because there
was the after party to the party, yes, and so
it was like a whole new but we had been
there for hours and hours and so that that was
a lot in a good way. It was a lot
and we're at the same table. We had some really
cute people with us, cute unter twohand so adorable mckayl
(04:00):
the Jay Rodriguez. Absolutely, Oh, I love seeing her. It's
always so fun to see Bobby. Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Yes, and you were you with who's your coworker that
you are?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
That was my manager, manager. Yes, he's so cute and such.
He's like my best friend and manager.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Yeah, he's so lovely. And then Ashland and I were there,
and Renee, our sweet friend, Renee Stubbs came with us,
and yeah, it was just a great night. We had
a nice crew.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
You know. What did bother me was that I didn't
feel like people were lively enough for Chapel Rome. I
didn't see enough dancing like people were in it. But
I'm used to like thrusting my body for that h
O T T O G. There wasn't a ton of
room too.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
There wasn't a lot of room every I felt like
we were doing very tiny.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
It was yeah, but I will say it felt like
watching queer history like while them singing together. It was incredible, unreal.
And I was standing next to her dad for a
while and it was like watching him kind of like
take it in was really sweet. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
We talked a lot about it on Money Day after,
you know, we were all kind of recapping the night
and watching the way Elton looked at her and watching
the way she was looking at Elton. It felt, yeah,
like such a such a historic moment across these generations
of queerness and activism and advocacy, and I don't know,
(05:23):
it made me really emotional.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
It was the that was where the gays were, like
we were in that room. And I saw Chapel in
twenty twenty three at the Wiltern in LA and the
only thing that I could compare it to was that
that scene in Rocketman where like everyone's in the doing
the crocodile rock and everyone starts to float off the
you know, like off their feet into the air. And
(05:44):
that is how I felt at this concert of like,
you know, maybe like nine hundred people watching Chapel and
then now seeing her do that like it it kind
of had that like she's now like my Elton John
for so many people who have grew up with Elton John,
and I just thought, oh that was fun. I had
a good time too.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Did you like the party?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
I liked the party, I got to see lots of friends,
and but I went to a West Hollywood gay bar afterwards,
which is it's a rare occasion that I do that.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
But you did it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
I was in Taco Bell at the end of the night.
Did you order food?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I was honestly so tired that I didn't even order
late night tacos, which is rare for me.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Where would you order from?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Oh my god? So there's so many good places in
La There's we have Tacos nineteen eighty six. We have Weisawtos.
We have Cactus, which is really my.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
I don't know any og. I just get Taco Bell.
Isn't that so sad? Oh?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
I have to take you?
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Yeah, you're going to say this.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
We have a tour.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
We have a tour and now we have a little time.
There's Taco Do's events now. Yes, And I think that
yesterday was it was a bad hangover day for me.
Today I feel alive. I feel like I want to
be a little more selective about not going to too
much stuff. Yeah, where did I saw you again? On?
What was the other thing that I saw? I can't Oh?
(07:04):
Women of the Year? Yeah time, Oh my god? And
that one was uh Levey or you know the singer
the uh Yes.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
She was wonderful.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
He did that song keep on Going with Your Crazy Dreams,
like to your it was like to your twelve year
old self, I think, And I was like, I don't
think my twelve year old self would have ever imagined
being at this like Women of the Year for Time
gala with like all these icons. Like I was like
kept flashing because I felt really tired, and I was like,
oh do I want to go to this? And I
looked around and was like, Oh my god, how lucky
(07:38):
am I to be in this room with all these gals.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, it was so special. It's really cool, And I
want I think about that for you and what an
amazing sort of connection to that song, because you know,
we talked about this a little bit last time you
came on the bus.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
It was basically a year ago. Yeah, I feel like
I'm part of the pod family.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Now are and I love it. But I you know,
I always think about how you would interact with your
younger self. And one of the things that I think
is so beautiful in the book is that you actually
dedicated it to your oldest best friend Lily Hi Lily,
and I loved watching you tell her that the book
(08:18):
is dedicated to her. You know, you wrote the girl
who helped show me the way. What what does it
feel like now to sort of look back at your
younger self, you know, the girl that Leve is saying
to the girl that you grew up with, and Lily
a girl that she always recognized in you, even perhaps
(08:39):
before you did. It must be so surreal from this
place to look back at it.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Well, I think that so little of like what's happening
right now feels like normal, And it still feels like
I'm either living in a dreamer or a nightmare. And
Lily is like the one constant that like when I'm
around her, it reminds me of what life looked like before,
not only transition, but like this industry and in this town,
(09:07):
and having her here with me, going to these events,
you know, being my plus one is like it's a dream.
We met when we were ten doing high school musical.
She was in the basketball ensemble. I was Ryan, and
she was pissed that she wasn't Sharpey. But I think
that like having that person that has known you longer
(09:29):
than you know anyone, and has loved you through all
the different chapters. I think it feels really good because
I feel like I'm still constantly meeting people trying to
like either you know, convince them of what it is
that I want to do or who I am or
what my identity should look like for them, because it's
the way that I see myself. But for her, I
(09:49):
don't have there's no explanation necessary. Who is your lily
like from back in the day.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Oh my gosh, I moved a lot as a kid,
and so I we don't have so many people who
stretch like way way wait, probably I don't really have
anybody before middle school. And there's four of us from
my middle school in high school that are still really close.
But my like my my Lily is my best friend. Yeah,
(10:17):
you know, we've been at it for almost twenty years together.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
And where'd you meet?
Speaker 1 (10:21):
We met at a conference way back in the day
before they were cool or like branded, you.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Know, a conference queen. So yeah, bush, Well, that is
one thing I will say I was thinking about when
because you know, we talked about going to Paris together
last year and oh was that even maybe was that
before we did the podcast? Or I think it was alf.
I think it was after we had a really fun
trip to Paris for a conference and a lovely man
(10:51):
that worked at CIA was there and he's like, you
know who always will show up, you know when you
ask her and when you need her for something is
Sophia Bush. And so like you've been doing in this
for a long time and the best way, and like Sowet,
you really are someone that people trust and also that
like you come through for people in really big ways.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
I think showing up is really important. Ye, And it's
certainly a love language for me. I know how meaningful
it is when people do it for me. And I
think you know the way Nia and I bonded and
built our friendship, you know, out of that space, she
cracked a joke like why is the girl from TV
or taking notes like a court stenographer?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Right?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
And I looked back at her and I said, I
went to journalisms called my notes are very good? Do
you need a copy? And she was like yeah. And
then we've been best friends ever since. And I think
for us, we've always been really mission aligned. And it's
weird to me when when mission isn't part of you know,
someone's life or their their ethos, and I think it's
(11:56):
probably why so many of us find each other, because yes,
you want to be creative and tell stories and have joy,
and you also want to make the world around you
a little kinder.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And we want to have a reason. Like even it
drives me crazy if I'm doing like a photo shoot
and I don't understand, like who is this for? What
is that? You know, it might just be a picture
and I might look pretty, but like is there what
else is here to like go off of? And no
matter what it is, I think I want to figure
out what is the reason behind something? And why am
(12:28):
I doing it? Why am I writing this book? Why
did you make this podcast? Why? Like there has to
be something other than the surface behind it. Even if
it is just to like bring a little joy or
to make someone laugh like that that can be enough
in some cases.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
But why did you want to write the book?
Speaker 2 (12:49):
I wanted to write the book. I think at first
this book has become a lot of different things because
I sold it really early on around days of Girlhood,
and I thought I was gonna be this fluffy little
piece of you know, fun for people to have on
their coffee table about you know, diary entries for my
first year, and I grew up reading like Chelsea Handler
(13:12):
and all these really fun, you know, female comedian books.
So I wanted to make people laugh and I wanted
to be a little raunchy. And then once beer Gate happened,
I knew that it needed to be something very different,
and so it ended up being this thing that was
deeply healing for me and I because I still in
(13:35):
some ways had this like bowling ball sitting on my chest,
not being able to articulate what happened or how I
felt about it, and I wanted people to know because
I built my platform on telling people things, and I
think this feels like a much safer medium than social
media does right now for me, And I think it's
(13:56):
it's something that I never thought I would get to
write a book and my life. So it's, i think,
probably the thing I'm most proud of now and I'm
scared because I love it and I don't know yet
how the world is going to interpret that. But would
you ever write a book?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
I've been dodging the question for about eight years.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
And now you can't because you're holding my hand.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Here we are. Yeah, people have approached me a few
times about it, and I think I'm finally in a
place where I'm ready to think about that. I think
there was a time where it felt when my team
(14:41):
first came to me with the idea. At first it
felt a little premature, And now I think I understand
that feeling better because I understand so many things about
myself better. But it's terrifying to.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Think about it. I think if you just don't frame
it as like a memoir, like I always think.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Of, like, yeah, come on, like, we're not eighty right,
I can't, I write, we can't.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
And that's what I really because some people still classify
this like as a memoir. So I'm so scared to
say memoir, Like is that because I feel like I'm
from like Wisconsin and I'm talking about this book that
I wrote called Them, and it's not a memoir. It's
like it's a hard word to say. Can you say memoir? Memoir?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Memoir?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Okay, Okay, we're settling on it.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
It helps if you if you memo, yeah, if you
try to sound a little bit like the like a
phone sex operator memoir memoir me, it comes out easier.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Right. Oh my god, that's a beautiful bag is that
your purse.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
It is.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Love it and it will fit a memoir into Babies.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
With Adhd sat together for a podcast.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
So I I like that. I call it my like
quarter life crisis book, and I think because it's very
specific in the timeline, it's about my transition, it's about
after beer Gate. We do have some essays that flash
back to, you know, my childhood, but not in a
way that feels like this is everything that I have
(16:08):
to offer from age zero to twenty six and and
that's all, you know, that could never revisit any of
these topics. I wanted it to feel like Chelsea Handler
did a lot of kind of essays early on that
I really like loved reading as a teenager because it
felt like I didn't know that we were allowed to
(16:30):
comment on our lives, you know. And it kind of
also kind of carry Bradshaw in the way that like
she was writing about things so messily and I haven't
gotten to talk a lot about like sex or religion
or things you know online. That felt a lot more
fun to put into a book.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah. Yeah, And now a word from our sponsors who
make this show possible. And I do think it's really
important I like the references you make. I love Chelsea's books.
(17:10):
And to your point, one of the things I think
we need more of is a little bit of permission
to be messy.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Humans are messy my house right now. Oh it's a state.
I also like, I'm one of those people that like
I will like have If I'm like, I clean my
entire place. It looks amazing for about fifteen minutes, and
then something happens and I don't know what it is,
but it then looks almost worse than it did before
(17:39):
I cleaned it. So that's I think like. And I've
seen a few the reviews are starting to roll out,
and some of them are like, oh that you you know,
it can be trickier to find the timeline or it
can you know what are we in a journal entry
or are we in an essay? And there's a little
bit of that. But I kind of love that it's
not about the life linear nature, but rather like what
(18:01):
I'm learning and how I learned it versus when. But God,
I feel like life sometimes only does your life right
now feel like it's getting messier or you're cleaning it up?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Oh I think I started a big glean up a
couple of years ago. My life feels very full and
I am incredibly grateful for that, and I would like
to have a little more space, and so I'm trying
to kind of recalibrate certain things. Yeah, because I actually
(18:38):
really like my life and I want to be present
for more of it. Yes, and that feels special.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
I feel the same. I feel like this has been
a really interesting time. I've taken on a bit too much.
I've learned, and so I'm going to get through that
and then try to clean shop in other ways. But
I think my biggest thing is I like to show
up one hundred percent for whatever it is that I'm doing,
whether that's an interview or a you know, a performance
(19:05):
like I want, like I did the Edinburgh Fringe Festival
last year, and I during that time, you know, I
had all these other things that needed attention or my
eyes on and I basically was like, No, all I
want to do right now is work on this show.
And I would be so disappointed in myself if I
don't give it my all and be like, oh, well,
I was trying to do a thousand other things. So
(19:27):
that is the part that scares me of like being
a multi hyphen it and then being like, what that
actually means of being able to put your attention to
different things at the same time.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
I feel that as well, because I wonder if I
just did one thing at a time, would I maybe
accomplish more at the end. But also I have to
I realize I have to be gentle with myself and
also trust myself. I am curious about a.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Lot I know on our ADHD wants us to be
doing a lot at the same time.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
How did you actually start down the path of comedy
and writing and the fringe festival? Like, oh, now you've
written a book. You create so much, and I want
to know.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
How, because I don't think anyone else is letting me
do that, Like, no, I'm not someone that's being particularly
like tapped on for a thousand different stories to tell.
And so I think right now the best option is
to tell my own, because I'm such an active member
(20:31):
of my life and wanting to be in this industry
knowing that these are some going to be some of
the really integral years to what the rest of it
looks like, and so I don't want to sit at
home waiting for you know, I would love to just
be an actress, and I would love to just wait
for the auditions to come in and for the parts
to play. Right now, that's you know, limited for trans women,
(20:53):
especially me, who I think is you know, shares quite publicly,
so I'm always trying to carve out other ways of
filling time. And then I think what's fun is when
somebody does approach me with an idea or an opportunity,
I can fit it in amongst what I've already created.
But I'm not waiting for anyone else, And I think
(21:17):
there is something frustrating and can be exhausting of like
always trying to manufacture and trying to tell, you know,
a story or get something off the ground. But I'm
proud that that I'm I feel quite I'm usually quite
sub in certain situations, but I feel very dumb when
(21:38):
it comes to my career and my trajectory in my creativity.
Like I think I'm really after finding my gender identity.
I was like, oh, this is what being an artist
can be now that I've like figured some things out
within myself. And I think maybe had things come a
(22:03):
little easier as far as like I, you know, was
on Broadway right now doing eight shows a week. I
probably wouldn't have written this book, and I probably wouldn't have,
you know, started my podcast or any of these things
that I think I need, we need right now. And
I do think transjoy can look a lot of different ways,
(22:24):
but this book is probably the loudest version of it
for me in this moment.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I love that for you. Yeah, And what it strikes
me as when you talk about sort of taking control,
it's it's agency. You are taking agency of your creativity.
You are you are making the things that you want
and need that your younger self probably needed too. And
(22:50):
I loved something that you said. Rolling Stone just did
a great profile on you on the book, and it
was such a sweet way to clap back at people
who are so upset by transjoy. You said, I'm not
trying to influence anyone to do anything other than see
a Broadway musical.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Period. Well that's not like, that's it, that's my transagenda. Yeah,
and hopefully that broad musical would have a transperson in it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But would be wonderful it should be you.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
But at the very least, go see fucking cats, you know,
Like I'm I just think that people are so easy
to project identities and activism and all these things onto
you when if you really listen to what the person
is trying to say or you know, what I've also
(23:37):
think is crazy as I've done interviews where I'm like,
I am not an activist, and then they title the
interview activist Dylan mulvany, and so it is really crazy
how sometimes loud and clear and articulate you have to
be in order to get people to figure out what
it is you want.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
So what would you say you want?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
I would like to be a Broadway diva who gets
to tell stories, sometimes my own, sometimes fictional. I want
to make people laugh, especially at some of the dark things,
like through transness and identity. I would love to make
people think. I think that's something that's newer on like
(24:18):
my list of desires, because for a long time I
didn't know that I could be vulnerable, like publicly. That
was kind of against the laws of my family, you know,
we were supposed to keep those things to ourselves. But
now I love it and I think that I I
would love to find love in the hard places and
(24:39):
help other people figure that out too. But in a
lot of those things, you know, could be as stupid
as in a sketch or in you know, a musical
or what they don't have to all be in you know,
at conferences or you know, speaking at the White House
or what, you know, whatever it is that that some
people also might assume that means.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, I think when you stand up for people, stand
up for yourself, stand up for others, you can kind
of get cast as a very serious person.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
So many people think I'm so serious, and then people
hang out with me and they're like, oh, you're weird
and really quirky and funny.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Right, we know how to have a good time. Yeah.
I actually will say though, some of the most serious
people are the ones that like to have the most fun.
But then people expect that of potentially us. We're in
a way that I don't think is always fair. I think, like,
I love letting loose with people, and I think people
(25:37):
can tell that from social media. But I also I'm
definitely not the trans girl that is ready to like,
you know, give you every single statistic and talk about
every single you know bill or you know, anti trans
legislation in the works. And I feel guilty about that sometimes,
but then I realize I'm like, oh, but there's like
(26:00):
so many other dolls that are really good at that,
and I can do my best to figure out how
to connect them when those opportunities come my way or
you know, they've we have great conversations, like I'm going
on a bunch of talk shows next week and I've
talked to a bunch of dolls about you know, what,
what should I say? What do you think is important
for the community? You know, trying to stay really proactive
(26:24):
so that when those questions do come up, I'm ready,
but not leading with it.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Well, one thing I think is really important is that
that can't just fall on you, right, It can't just
be on trans women to advocate for trans women, since
women need to show up and advocate for you in
the same way that when we talk about gender based
violence around the world, that's actually that's a male problem,
(26:51):
that is a statistically male problem. If we scream into
the void about what women go through in the world
and men don't join us to say men should stop
assaulting women, right, we're in a vacuum. And so I
think I'm so glad you feel like you get to
be your full self, and I love that you have
a community that helps you figure out what you should
(27:14):
use those platforms to say in the moment, and I
want other folks to be reminded that we have to
show up for you too.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yes, thank you. But it's also fascinating what's happening, I
think when it comes to allyship, because the you know,
far right extremists are getting really good at trying to
scare our allies away. And even this was an example
is getting my makeup done by a really lovely gay
man last week, and he was talking about this transvestigation
(27:48):
over this very famous woman that you know, all these
people are claiming is a trans woman and all the
reasons why they think she's trans, and I had to
explain to him that it was like deeply problematic because
you know, whether this person was trans or not, they
were trying to cast her as this like monster or
(28:09):
this person hiding you know, secrets or deceiving the public.
And and I had to explain that like what they
now want to do is make cis women believe that
like being called trans or you know, being accused of
being a trans person is like the worst, you know thing,
(28:29):
when in reality it's it's like most transgirls I know
are really cute and and they we've got our you know,
we've got we're working on it, we're getting it together.
But I find it very problematic that a lot of
allies don't always know what is transphobic, like like and
you know, we've got to figure out those conversations. But
(28:51):
if if it's pushing a notion that like transness is
evil or you know problematic, like, chances are it's probably transphobic. Yeah,
And and so it's it's interesting getting to still exist
in around so many icons, and especially these women that
(29:13):
I call friends and and that support me publicly like
I had Lady Gaga last year post on International Women's
Day or you know, standing up for me. And and
that's the kind of where I'm like, holy crap, like
there's there's still the good ones, and I'm here with
you right now. I think that it makes me sad
(29:33):
to think that certain people would be scared to you know, uh,
be seen with the trans person or to work with
us or hire us. But there's so much power in
saying no, I'm not going to live in that fear
or that you know people are going to boycott my
(29:54):
product or not watch this television show or unfollow because
you support you know a transperson. That's that is, it's
we can't give into that, We cannot give into that fear.
I'm so tired of being scared.
Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. One of
the things I think is really beautiful about the book
is you do claim so much joy, you do share
so much happiness with us, and you also aren't shying
(30:30):
away from the things that have been hard, and you
do talk about beer Gate, and you do really bring
us into what it feels like to be targeted by
these far right hate campaigns. But the thing that hit
me so hard actually is something you share in the
(30:51):
first thirty pages of the book, and you talk about
how so many external opinions. You know, you're one person
on the internet and millions of people can comment at you,
and talk about how so many external opinions can can
create so much noise, so much mental and emotional noise,
(31:13):
that your darkest thoughts, your self loathing, your critique that
all of us have inside of us, can suddenly be
parroting the worst of the comment section. Yes and how
And reading your words when you talked about it, like
took my breath away because I know exactly how that feels.
(31:34):
It honestly made me gasp, Like I heard myself gasp
when I read it, because I know how paralyzing that
feeling is, and.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
How do you get I think, how do you identify it?
How do you get out that crazy is? When you can,
then when you have made enough progress to see that
you are, you're quite literally at a crossroads where you're like,
I'm either going to believe this what they're saying about myself,
and I'm going to take it on as part of me,
or I'm going to acknowledge that what they're saying is
(32:06):
not true about myself because I know who I am
and the people that I love know who I am,
and and let that be the course that you take.
And I actually, even just yesterday, even that we were
talking about the Elton John party, I was interviewing people
on the carpet and I was reading all these comments about, oh,
(32:26):
you know, this girl's so annoying, she's standing too close
to people, she won't let her you know, people get
a word, all these things, and I went I almost
was like, oh, I'm going to make a video now
being like, yeah, I'm annoying, I know it. And then
I was like oh my gosh, like it was like
a clear cut you just changed your opinion about yourself
(32:46):
based on these other people. And there were plenty of
other comments that loved it and that were, you know,
behind what I was doing, but those other ones were louder,
And I think what I had to do was not
only kind of take some distance from taking in information
about myself, which is so hard to not look, but
(33:09):
I had to be very clear about who who I was.
I think I spent kind of the last two years
since Beergate getting very specific about what I know about
myself to be true, so that now when I put
a book out and have a lot of new critique
coming my way, that I can stand behind those things.
(33:30):
I know I'm a musical theater girl. I know that
I talk too much. I know that well that even
me just saying that that was a projection of someone else.
That I love to talk is how I'll rephrase that.
That I feel really beautiful most of the time, but
that I also can sometimes get in my head and
that's often linked to dysphoria. I know that I love
(33:53):
to be raunchy, and that that's not something to be
ashamed of about myself. These are little things that I
think are helpful. Then when I read those, I can
kind of go down the checklist and be like, Okay,
so that's it's not here already, and I don't think
we need to add it. It's just it's so crazy
(34:15):
how great social media can be and then how toxic
it and even the I think it goes back to
the press too in the media of how they're pushing transphobia,
because a lot of what they're saying and these headlines
are like deeply transphobic, but they're very click baity and
those are other like those Actually I have an easier
time laughing at because it's like it feels like this,
(34:38):
you know, news source that couldn't be more incorrect, versus
like seeing a person's name on a screen that's like
leaving a specific comment, because that feels, in a weird
way more tangible knowing there's like a human behind it.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah, where it's a bot though, what are bots could
just be a bot?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
I don't understand. Do you have do you have bots
are looked into bots?
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Oh, it's just it's relentless and it's.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
We need like a queer bot farm that like throws
the good stuff out there. Just imagine someone like doing.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Like sexy sassy commentary.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Oh that would be not who's going to pay for that?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
I don't know. We need a benevolent it.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Was really billion Yeah, we need a gay billionaire to
put out.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
But I don't think there are any benevolent billionaires. Unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
I hate it. It's tricky, right, weird.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
I don't know, but if we win the power Ball,
it could be that's.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
What, and then it's going to be us making a
good bot farm.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah, I'm I'm here for that.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
Is that an oxymoron? A good bot farm? Is it bot?
By the way, what is robot? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Like a robot, it's a it's a little digital terrorist essentially.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I'm also getting scared of, like how we're our future
is going to go with robots?
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah, me too. Everything's crazy. I'm like, did nobody watch Terminator?
Speaker 2 (35:54):
What are we doing with the I don't like the
self driving cars?
Speaker 1 (35:56):
No creeps me out. It all creeps me out. But
at least we're entering into a future where your book exists.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Woo. I bet it's going to get banned so fast.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
You know what's really sort of hilarious but sad about
you saying that is. My partner was like, what is
this enormous box of book? What is this? Like you
need any more books? And I said, oh no, sorry,
last week I had to buy all the books the
DOJ band just in case. Oh my god, we're that
in it. And I'm going, this is so weird that
I'm turning my house into a book archive just in case.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Well, I mean and say that I write in the book,
I say like, I hope the words on this page
last longer than the videos on my profile. And TikTok
got banned for a second there, and I was like, oh,
I thought this was going to be like a nostalgic
fifty years from now sentence, And now it's like the reality.
But a lot harder to get rid of something physical
like this than to, you know, have a profile disappear.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
Line, push something and have it go.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
And I think what I wrote about meeting Judy Bloom
in my book and I got to interview her during
literally the height of beer Gate, and what had happened
right before I walked into that interview was I got
slammed coming out of a woman's bathroom in the hotel
that I was interviewing Judy Bloom, and they you know,
(37:15):
were saying horrible things to me up in my face.
They had totally trespassing. But then I had to walk
into this interview with Judy and I swear things just
happened when they're supposed to do, and you see the
people that you needed because I felt so small in
that moment, and then getting to talk to her, you know,
this is a woman who had her books banned years
(37:37):
and years ago in like the seventies and the eighties,
and and she looked at me at the end and
she was like, do not let anyone stop you from
sharing your story, from writing it down, from putting it
out there. She's like, there's so much good to be done.
She was like, there were so many people early on
that tried to make me feel like I was, you know, evil,
(37:57):
or that I was doing something that was corrupting the U.
And she was like, but you have to know what
your the purpose is of something, and she was like,
you've got to put it out there. And so like
hearing that from like Judy Bloom, that's somebody that's a
little bit better to be listening to than Fox News.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I would say, well, yeah, or some insane person bombarding bathrooms.
It's so gross. It's so gross, But you know what
is is wild to me, And I think this is
something people miss again because you know, they have to
create clickbait and rage in some ways, so they have
to make everyone afraid of everyone. And there's no way
(38:35):
that seeing you exists in the world and be happy
is going to turn some sisc hid trams. But what
I know to be true is that a four year
old who does what you did and says to your mom,
God made a mistake, I'm in the wrong body could
(38:55):
see you and know that what they're saying isn't crazy
and that they're going to be okay someday. Yes, And
that to me feels like such an important thing in
the world to just make sure that people don't feel alone.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Right. And I've now what's been fascinating since talking about
that moment with my mom, Like so many people, even
in the industry, have like come to me and been like, hey,
my kid is you know going through this or And
it gives people permission to you know, have conversations and
to like get to the bottom of things in a
(39:38):
way that I think there was so much shame about before,
and I even told my family, I was like, I
didn't paint us as these like picture perfect people, because
we aren't and that's not what our family is. But
hopefully other people getting to see our progress and that
the fact that we all still love each other and
I feel so supportive by them is actually way more
(39:58):
beneficial than me painting it as like a pretty picture.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the hardest things
about being a human in the public eye is that
you very rarely get to go through something and process
it and then talk about it when it's done. You
kind of have to process in real time out loud,
and I think that can be very toxic because then
your life gets treated like it's a TV show or
(40:24):
a storyline, and you're like.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
No, this is happening to me, and it feels like
it will never change. I now feel really removed from
certain ideas that were made about me, like even being
the trans beer girl, and now years later, I'm like, oh,
I'm doing all these other things that have nothing to
do with that. And I thought that was going to
be the way that I was interpreted forever, but it's not.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
But it's not, And I think It's beautiful to see
you go through certain things publicly process them and then
be able to reflect. But I love that some of
the stuff about you and your family, you've been able
to do both. You've been able to do the real time,
but you've also been able to take us in the
book on this journey backwards and yeah, you've been honest
(41:10):
about it. And I think honesty actually as a reader
makes me feel so hopeful for my own family, for
other families.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
Well, I think you can tell when some especially if
you're like reading something of someone's like, you can tell
if how it's being spun as far as like, and
I was like, I want to be as factual as
I can with like how these moments went down, so
that people can feel whatever way that they feel about them.
And then there are moments where I really get quite
emotional and show them kind of how I was feeling
(41:41):
mentally versus like what was actually, you know, happening in
the world around me. And a lot of that I
think in the book kind of slowed where I went
in tod Ayahuasca in Peru and I wrote about you
know this sort of like I wanted this it to
be this quick fix and what it really did was
it like started something in myself that I was gonna
(42:05):
end up. I'm still thinking about so many of the
things that I found while I was down there on
that's weird to call it a drug. It really feels
more like a medicine. It's a medicine. Yes, would you
ever do aahuasca have? Oh? Wow? Okay, we I don't
even know if we've talked about I haven't. Oh, we
need to. And it's It's also funny because I think
(42:26):
like when I told people that I was going down
there to do that, there was either certain people were like,
that's amazing, I've always wanted to do that, tell me everything.
And then there are some people who feel really uncomfortable
by the idea of like doing something a different kind
of way. And that was like my work in progress
was to try it in a way that was not
(42:50):
offered to me as a young person or in my
early years, Like just you know if when when really
hits the fan doing in a different way, well, I
think a lot of.
Speaker 1 (43:01):
People are scared of anything expansive. I think it's why
so many people are afraid of trans people, because you
challenge boundary and binary and you say, there's a more
expansive way to be a human. You know, our friend
Aloke talks about this all the time, that the freedom
that you have to claim to be trans is terrifying
(43:26):
to people that don't feel free in their own lives.
And for me, you know, ten years ago, when I
had this, like deeply prepared for you know, therapy involved
all the things experience. It was part of a larger
process of how do I begin to not be stuck
(43:47):
in this way of thinking? How do I begin to
interrupt a feedback loop and see other options that are
probably here but that I'm not seeing right. And I
think when you can be well researched and safe and
obviously you know.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Ready, you're ready when in whatever way ready can feel,
because it doesn't always you know, you won't feel one
hundred percent ready.
Speaker 1 (44:14):
But sure, But I think that's true for anything. And
when something calls to you when you're when claiming who
you are out loud, calls to you when when saying
you know, I built this whole life and I checked
off everything on my list like a good girl, and
I really don't like it. And I think maybe I
deserve to like my life, that I learned a few
(44:37):
years ago is a radical act, yes, And I think
I think sometimes when you are radically courageous, people really
will shot on you for it. But some people will
also walk up and hug you and say you saved
my life, and that makes it worth it. I just
wish the Internet was less prone to sitting on people.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
I sometimes I forget because I was, you know, fourteen,
the only like gay person out at my high school.
Like I forget that it is there are so many
adults that are still grappling with these decisions, that are
living these life, have children, have you know, jobs that
like that. They are trying to make the most difficult
(45:17):
decision to be themselves possible. And I think I have
to always remember that it's not always as easier available
to people as someone like me who was really privileged
to although my family was conservative and Catholic, like I
didn't get thrown out of the house, and I found
these pockets of community like in theater, where like some
(45:39):
people don't have those places to like see gay people thriving. Yeah,
so the Internet is really good in that way because
you know, people get to watch things like this.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
But I.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Think that it's I don't know. This book coming out
in twenty five is crazy because it's a radical act. Yes,
but and even when it was decided they would come out,
we didn't know who the president was going to be,
We didn't know what trans legislation was going to look like.
And so I have to trust that this is the
(46:12):
right time. And I don't want to become a poster
child again, like how that felt like it went down
in twenty twenty two. But I feel charged up in
a really good way, which is yummy. How when do
you feel the most, like when you're feeling like really exhausted.
(46:33):
How long does it take you to get back into
like progress mode, or when you've like had a big
like what feels like maybe a failure, or when you
know something doesn't go your way that you've been working
so hard towards. How how long does it take you
to bounce back? And then when do you know that
you're ready?
Speaker 1 (46:53):
I don't know. I think it's sort of a case
by case thing, something that I have learned monitor for myself.
As you said earlier, you went, oh, look at me,
I'm I'm already acknowledging something nasty someone said to me
and apologizing for it when I find myself so wounded
by negativity that I'm figuring out how to answer for it.
(47:20):
When you know, the next time I have a MIC,
I'm going to have to figure out how to gently address.
Then I know I need a beat before you know,
I see it. I don't need to explain everything to everyone.
And it's a weird thing because the Internet will critique
you if you don't, and then if you do, they
(47:40):
critique you for oversharing, and no matter what you do,
you can't get it right. And so I have to
take a breath and say, this is not a normal
human experience for there to be one of us and
multimillions of people talking at us all the time. Yeah,
So if I know that, how can I then try
to use it for good? Remind myself that it's also
(48:02):
not my real life, and be in my life as
much as I can, and that even when I can
ask myself those questions, I know I'm in a good
place because I'm making adjustments for my humanity right, not
for what something looks like.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
And is Ashland the one that helps you take a
beat and like figure out what it is you are
called to say or what your you know, real opinion
is on certain things before you share that public like
who is who's the because for me it is a
lot of lily, it's my life, coach Morey, it's me
and a local couple all the time. You know, there
(48:42):
are those people do you have, like who do you
find yourself in those tough situations?
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Going to and now a word from our wonderful sponsors.
What I think I have had to come to terms
with having real, joyful, like deep, silly, expansive love in
(49:13):
my life is that I have actually done so much
by myself for so long. I tend to show up
for other people, but I very rarely ask people to
show up for me. And I am learning to ask.
I am learning that I don't have to do it
all by myself. I am learning to call my you know,
(49:36):
wonderful coven of brilliant women and just say, like, what
the fuck are we going to do with this?
Speaker 2 (49:44):
I will say, I feel like there's so many people
in this world that have to find every other opinion
with their own before they conform theirs, And so it
is kind of iconic in a way that you can
do things independently. But I will say the fact that
you have that like this like arsenal of incredible humans
to tap into, you should use it.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
Yeah, and I'm working on that. And it feels nice
to not have so much weight on my shoulders all
the time. I I have a question for you, because look,
we're all obviously navigating our lives. But one of the
things that I feel excited about for you as your
(50:28):
friend is as you kind of name and claim all
your power. I feel like you're also in this fun
moment of starting to figure out who's going to pour
into your cup. And and it's different for you. You know,
you talked about being you know, a young out gay
(50:48):
and then having to really come to terms with the
fact that, oh, that's not my full self. I'm actually
I'm actually this woman yes that I've always felt in me.
How how does that experience shift how you date?
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Oh my god, because you're also so public. Yes, but
I will think about this tall glass of water, because
needs to be someone who is comfortable dating someone in
the public eye, is attracted to trans women, is comfortable
with maybe aspects of their life. You know, not that
I'm going to put a relationship on blast, but there
is a chance whether I speak or not that aspects
(51:28):
of their life could be affected by what I'm doing
and saying. So it almost has to be someone who
has like a kink for like an oversharing trans woman.
But like what I the most important thing is that
I cannot be with someone who I have any doubts
is ashamed to be with me. And because what I
(51:50):
have done so well is like start to let go
of the shame that I have around who I am.
So what would be the worst case scenario is me
attaching myself to someone else who then I start changing
myself based on how they're reflecting back to me and
what they're seeing in me and what they articulate to
me about myself. And so I really think it's going
(52:14):
to be so I actually it's a hot take, but
I would like it to be someone that has something
to do either with our industry or is in the
public eye already, so that like if I was with
this like doctor that you know there doesn't get rocked
on the daily mail because like there's just things.
Speaker 1 (52:30):
And maybe baptize someone in the public life fire.
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I get that, yes, And so in a way there
would be some comfort in knowing, like, oh, this person
has their own thing going on as well, But I
think I'm really turned on by creativity, by drive. I
find it so like, what if I'm like out on
(52:55):
a date with someone and they're talking about all the
things they're doing, I get so horny because I'm like, oh,
this is someone who has like like dreams and ambitions
just the way that I am. So they're not gonna
if I come in, you know, I walk into the
house one day and I'm like, I want to do this, this,
this and this that. They're like, WHOA like? I think
I want like a yes human. And I've really I've
(53:17):
tried the hookup thing. I've found it to be really true.
La Is Honey, it's not what I mean.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
You've tried the hookup.
Speaker 2 (53:23):
I've tried the casual whether it's I mean, so I'm
so crazy, I'm so really weird. I've actually I only
have Riyah. I've been thinking about potentially deleting it just
because it hasn't yielded the greatest results. But I think
there what's the word, oh, demi sexual? I think maybe
(53:45):
chapel Rone was talking about in an interview about what
I like is I need to be emotionally connected with
someone beforehand, and especially I think being trans, I feel
really protective over my body and the fact that there's
still so many things changing with it, and I want
it to be someone that I like, Like, it is
(54:06):
hard for me to get to a place where I'm
like ready to like take my makeup off and like,
god rude. I was thinking about you know, oh, someone
was talking about like shower sex recently, and I was like, Okay,
that's my worst nightmare because I was like, not only
are the fake lashes you know they're coming off, but
like that is really it's such a vulnerable state to
be in. But I really hope that it's with someone
(54:30):
and I like older. I've always liked a mature soul,
But I hope it's with someone who is proud to
be with the trans person and is and who gets
a kick out of whatever it is that I'm doing
or want to do. Yeah, and I want to be
the same with them.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Yeah, I don't know, you got to think about I'm
looking for like twenty eight to fifty eight. Mask by
actual vibe feels gummy, you know, kind of like daddy,
but also you know, can be like soft as well.
Think on it. You've got you've got a pool of queers.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
Now, oh, I'm gonna really, I'm gonna think.
Speaker 2 (55:14):
And the other thing I used to did gay men,
and they were so much better than straight guys. I
had no idea what I was missing and like or
what that I had in that what I ended up
getting was not as good as I thought it was
going to be. And I have an essay called the
Kissing Bandit in the book where I talk about, you know,
just like what it felt like to have like the
(55:36):
straight male gaze on me for the first time, and
not the gaze, but the gaze, and I thought it
was going to feel so much better than it did.
It was. It was such a an empty confidence that
came from it. And you know, it can feel good sometimes,
but it doesn't make me feel as good as like
(55:58):
when a girl's hyping me up and know in the
bathroom it or you know, a phone call with Lily,
Like it's interesting to now I've I've kind of gotten
to look at life on both sides, like Joni Mitchell. Yeah,
and I love that I can see like the perks
of living life as a gay man versus as a woman.
(56:19):
What the how the queer community treats you depending on
what gender you are, you know, like how women treat you.
Oh and that changed a lot and it's still, you know,
evolving in something that I feel, I hope does not
digress because I feel like I have really taken the
(56:40):
not a back seat at all, like almost like the
passenger seat to the driver in learning from other gals. Yeah,
what do you feel like you're learning? I think I'm
learning that not all like I think I was. It
felt for a long time like it was CIS women
versus trans women, And I'm realizing there's a lot of
the girls are fighting in both categories, but that there
(57:03):
are a lot of CIS women who do not do
not see eye to eye on things as well. In
that to me gave me permission to not look at
us as these two different categories of people, but actually
see the nuance of what exists within womanhood and feminism
and knowing that, like even I'm watching the White Lotus
(57:25):
right now, and it's so interesting, like when you've got
like a we're looking at these are you have you
watched it yet? Like a friend group of women who
maybe have different political beliefs, and how that shifts, you know,
the conversations and the judgments, and I think that I
(57:48):
now have less of a desire to be accepted by
every single woman, and it's more of a desire to
be respect did by those that I deeply respect. Yes, yes, yeah,
and a lot of And I will say, like the
gals that I've loved and my role models growing up,
(58:10):
like now, some of which are like friends, and and
that is what a gift like that is has helped
show me that I I'm the kind of gal that
I I loved growing up and that I would continue
wanting to be.
Speaker 1 (58:26):
I love that for you, Love, You're the gal you
loved growing up.
Speaker 2 (58:30):
I'm so the city I've been watching so much of
and like I you know, there's this like fear I
think as a trans person that you are you know,
made out to be a caricature, or that you're taking
on aspects of of you know, other women or fictional women.
And so I did feel a little guilty. I was like, oh,
(58:51):
I love Audrey Heppern and I love her style, but
I don't want it to seem like I'm like cosplaying
as her. I love Charlotte from Sex and the City,
and you know, I feel so connected to her as
a character, but I don't want it to seem like
that's what I'm like trying to be. And then I realize, like,
oh no, that's just You're seeing things, whether it's in
a character or in a human or in a celebrity,
(59:11):
that you see within yourself and that have already existed.
And it's not that they're things that I'm putting on,
but it's things that I see in others that I
love and that I want to make even a little
brighter within me.
Speaker 1 (59:24):
One of the things you identify with, Yes, that you
feel represented by, that you feel that make you feel seen.
Speaker 2 (59:32):
Yeah, are what girl on Sex and City? Are you?
Speaker 1 (59:36):
I don't know? Probably, I mean, let's be honest, I'm
I think people probably would have thought Carrie. But I
think I'm a little more Miranda. My dad still can't
believe I'm not a lawyer. He's like, you love to argue,
you love to fight for justice.
Speaker 2 (59:51):
I see some Miranda there. I also think, like you
old an earnestness and an innocence still that is kind
of it gives.
Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
You Charlotte a ya a sweet angel.
Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Yes, because that is such a rarity and I like
that is honestly, when I think of our group of
friends and those that we hang out with, like, there
is that innocence that I love. We talked about it
last last year on the pod of like you know,
finding people that have Oh, and I loved. Jane Fonda
recently dd a podcast interview where she talked about optimism
(01:00:24):
versus hope. Yes, and so with Kerrie Washington.
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Yes, it was so good I.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Now because I feel like for so long I've been
like I am an you know, eternal optimist, and now
I'm like, oh, no, we're hopeful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
I'm hopeful.
Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
I'm still so hopeful.
Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
Is that going into this crazy year where literally our
rights are being stripped away and democracy might be lost?
But your book is coming out? Yes, it's the horrors
and the joy yep. Is it hope that feels like
you're work in progress right now? Or is it something
(01:00:59):
complete different?
Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
Well, it's actually I think it's a balance of realism
versus hope. And for I think for a long time
I lived I'm a zero to one hundred person, one
hundred percent just hopeful in a way that I got
burned so many times because I wasn't taking into consideration
what could happen, or the realities of what it meant
(01:01:21):
to be trans in America, or the realities of living
in the public eye. I always assumed the best of everyone, yeah,
even the media, and it has it's bitten me enough
for me to know the possibilities of what that looks like.
And so I'm a little more cautious. But the hope
is that I can exist in a place where it's
(01:01:43):
the best case scenario and that the good things are possible,
and that my you know, vision board can come true.
And then it's the lack of when those things don't
happen or can't happen because of the year that we're
living in or the government that we have, or whatever
that might be, that I have a plan B, C
and D that can still you know, get me through
(01:02:07):
and that I can still live a full life hopefully.
But I'm not going to go to Plan B, C
or D before I try Plan A and And I
think that has been really crucial, Like even this year,
I don't have a vision. I'm always a vision board girl.
I've like I've always been able to manifest like magical things,
but it feels so out of the ordinary right now
(01:02:29):
that I have forced myself to like want certain things,
but I am approaching every single like opportunity. I'm like,
does this help me become a Broadway diva? I love that.
That's my vision board for this year is that question.
And there's like hope within that, and I think so
I will say, oh yes, thank you, Jane Fonda. Hope
(01:02:50):
is my work in progress right now.
Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
Yeah, what's yours right now?
Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
You give me a lot of hope. I think slowing
down it's really hard for me.
Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Oh yeah, but I am.
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
I am just so ready for slow tender.
Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
We don't want to be everywhere and nowhere. We want
to be some places and giving one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
Oh I love you, oh so proud of you.
Hosts And Creators
Bethany Joy Lenz
Sophia Bush
Robert Buckley
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