Work in Progress: Maren Morris

Fresh off her performance at the DNC, Maren Morris — singer-songwriter, activist, and mom — is in a new chapter of her life. She’s doing things her way, and is not afraid to use her voice to stand up for what's right.

The Grammy-winning artist talks to Sophia about her emotional journey, from the highs of her recent DNC performance to the lows of coping with postpartum depression, being a different person now than she was five years ago, standing by everything she has said when she’s stood up for people in the past, and why she decided to come out as bisexual when she did.

Plus, Maren opens up about using her art to navigate through the pain of divorce, finding the courage to hit the reset button on her life, and exploring personal change in her new EP, Intermission, which is available now. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello Whipsmarties,
Welcome back for another episode. This one is I know

(00:21):
I always say I'm excited, but I am so excited
to have today's guest here. She is a recording artist
that I love, but also a person that I adore
and that I am so inspired by. Today we are
joined by Maren Morris. She has broken boundaries, smashed records,
and affirmed herself as a dynamic vocalist, prolific songwriter, showstopping

(00:42):
performer all on her own terms. And she happens to
be an incredible person in all of those ways, as
herself in the world, as an activist, as a mom,
as someone who is not afraid to learn out loud.
And I am so excited that she's here to talk
about her career, her songwriting, her history, her family, and

(01:04):
her latest incredible EP called Intermission. In a recent interview,
Maren said that Intermission is the disolation of the strangest
year of my life. I decided to hit the scariest
reset I could have ever conceptualized, and there is no
looking back. The length one will go to to feel
joy again or sometimes desperate and terrifying as I'll get out,

(01:25):
but we deserve peace in this very short few trips
around the sun. Here's my heart Journey and a gamut
of emotions packed into five songs. I love this epiece
so much. I feel so represented, I feel so heard,
and I'm really excited to talk to Maren today about
her journey to write it. You know, her experience is

(01:47):
becoming an advocate, becoming a mother, going through a divorce,
coming out. She has really been living so out loud
and so courageously. She has been standing up for people
in every brilliant way that she can, from beating back
transphobia in the country community to standing up for black
female artists in that industry as well, and really for

(02:11):
reminding all of us that it's never too late. Let's
dive in with Maren Morris. Hi, honey, I am so
happy to see you. I can't believe that we get

(02:31):
to be together just after we were all in Chicago
for the DNC. How was it?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
It was amazing. I mean it was such a palpable
positivity in the air in Chicago. I was only there
that one day that I was performing, but everyone was
just in high spirits, like even at the hotel. There
was a dude that was outside of our lobby and
he was like, Oh, I'm gonna just take my city

(02:58):
bike over to the DNC, And I was like, cool,
I love that for you. It was just you could
feel like an energy in the air, which is so
special to have witnessed like on the ground.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah. I think for me, it was really interesting to
see that shift because we've been fighting against something awful
for so long, which is so important, you know, Like
that's the point, right that we want to leave this
world better than the one we inherited from our parents,
for our you know, children and eventual children and their children.

(03:29):
And I get why it's so important to stand up
against what's wrong. And it also feels really nice to
be standing up for what feels right, for joy and
honesty and you know, everything from people's rights to a
good economy, Like it's nice to have something to celebrate again.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah. It really is just this injection of hope, and
I think that we were without it for so long,
so when you have just a tiny dose of it,
it feels like it feels like a drug almost. But
I think with all the building blocks of what this

(04:11):
campaign is, standing on and just the last you you know,
eight years of Trump stuff and me sort of like
existing within country music, Like my sort of public facing
career has been in this window of maga. So that's
just like an interesting thing that like my album came

(04:32):
out in twenty sixteen, yeah, my first album, and just
so the whole umbrella of it has sort of been
under this this cult and yeah, just kind of navigating
my way through that and then having my son four
years ago right at the beginning of COVID, just so
many things really crystallized for me as a mother. But yeah,

(04:57):
being at the convention, having never been to one for
it was really inspiring. Being able to listen to actual
policy and not just uh, you know, it's not just
celebrities like they're you know, are our congress people actually
telling us what their plan is? It's yeah. And then

(05:20):
also just what you said, like this this hopefulness and
like positivity of it not be about constant jabs at
the other side, really about bringing us together and divisive
like I'm all about a SoundBite or like a funny meme.
But and we got a lot of those moments from
the team, But I think ultimately I was left with

(05:43):
like a pang of hopefulness. So that's, yeah, that feels good.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Me too, And I think about it a lot, you know.
One of the things that's been helpful to me, because
there's obviously so much morality in policy, right, Like we're
either expanding people's access to rights, we're either protecting our communities,
or we're hurting people, we're demonizing people. Like that seems
so clear to me, and yet there are folks who

(06:10):
want to say, like, well, that's not how you have to,
you know, negotiate the future of a country. So then
I started going, okay, well, how am I going to
get you.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
On the math?

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Like how am I going to look at the numbers
and make this stuff make sense to you? If you
don't want to talk about morals, I'll talk to you
about math. I'll talk to you about the economy and
all the rest of it. And it's been really amazing
to see the literal studies over the last four years,
like the Biden Harris administration having to pull us out
of the absolute bungling of the pandemic by the former president,

(06:42):
the total nightmare of public health, you know, adding eight
trillion dollars to the deficit, like, it's crazy when you
think about the fact that twenty five percent of the
entire US deficit, like in the whole, in the hundreds
of years of our country, twenty five percent of that
was created under Trump. And to sit here and go oh,
since nineteen eighty six, Democrats have created fifty million jobs,

(07:03):
Republicans have created a million. Like all this math, we've
got the proof of it. And you've got these global
economists talking about how, you know, after the nightmare of
the supply chain and everything getting crazy when COVID started, Like,
not only have our policies here helped our country get
back to historic low inflation, but we've actually lowered inflation
around the world. And like so many people don't want

(07:27):
to talk about the math. It's boring. Like I used
to go blank in the face when it was happening
in front of me. But it makes me so proud
because I'm like, no, we get to campaign on civil
rights and joy and freedom and bringing everybody to the
table and not demonizing our neighbors, and we beat you
on the math. I love this.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
I just love this. It's like we had.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
Things to celebrate after four years of having to claw
our way back from that horrible, hateful disaster, and you know,
we were able to do it joyfully, and we were
able to do it, as you said, with policy. And
then like I got to see friends up on stage,
you know, from Kelly Robinson who's the president of the
HRCDU singing in that by the way, not political at all,

(08:08):
but that perfect white suit. It was so beautiful, girl.
I like I gagged in the best way and I
just was like, God, it's happy to be happy.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, And I think you know, Kamala's team is who
sort of chose the song that I was going to perform,
and so I was going to ask, okay, yeah, I
think it was down between like the middle, the bones,
or better than we found it, which I'm really glad
that they ended up wanting me to sing that one
because you know, just this moment is so precious and

(08:41):
I'm singing through the lens of the camera to my
son and I was, I was, you know, kind of
bring up like you know, it's it's politicized for sure,
but something that really brought a lot of people together
in Nashville, you know, which is a very progressive like
blue dot in a red state and coming from Texas

(09:03):
to Tennessee, being able to think of a lot of
this sort of maga or just you know, growing up
conservative too, like really being in a constant argument with
family members and like longtime friends and like truly trying
to understand each other. I lived right across the street

(09:23):
last year from the Covenant shooting in Nashville, Oh my goodness,
and having kind of been through like like Route ninety one,
like playing that festival, you know, six seven years ago,
the day before the shooting, and like it just really
racking the country music community for so long and still

(09:43):
so I have people in my meet and greets that
are survivors of that shooting. And then to last year
living across the street from Covenant and like having everything
shut down for two days, not being able to leave
our street, our home, like afraid of like can I
get my son home from school that day, Like he

(10:03):
didn't go to Covenant, but it was just like terrifying,
And then driving past the six crosses. Every something happened
like to the town obviously, but it brought women together.
It brought a lot of mothers together Tennessee Capital the

(10:25):
weeks following, and a lot of students that are now
you know of age of voting age, so just yeah,
being it is sort of coming together for me at
the DNC singing that song which I wrote in twenty twenty,
like after George Floyd's murder, Like it was just so
many emotions and I didn't know it like affect me
until we were live because you just you know, you know,

(10:49):
like women particularly, we go into like professional mode and
you're kind of impenetrable because you just have to like
get the job done. But yeah, it was during the
formants of Better Than We Found It at the DNC
where I just like, after I was done, I went
backstage and just like kind of fell apart a little
because it's not like just a concert. I mean, this

(11:12):
is really it matters and or this this event matters
and it matters. So yeah, I mean it was completely celebratory.
I was like gagging at Corey Booker's intro of me.
I was I was just like, this is insane, Like
I've never felt this sort of camaraderie in love, like

(11:35):
from you know, a political party, but it's like politics
at the end of the day, it's like they're it's
they're people, the people with families with lives with things
at stake, with wants and needs, and I think, like,
you know, not to be cliche, but like I do
think when I even talked to you know, my parents
or people like in the South that you know, I

(11:58):
don't know if they're going to continue voting for Trump,
but they have in the past at least twice. It's like,
I think there's something that feels like it's changing. And
I don't know if that's just them supporting me as
their daughter or if they truly were just like moved
to listen to speeches that were happening last week and

(12:20):
felt like maybe the dial moved. I don't know, but yeah,
it's kind of interesting and fun to be like a
part of that conversation and not just.

Speaker 3 (12:32):
You know, yapping about it totally well, and to show
up right like even when you talk about, you know,
when tragedy befell your community in Nashville last year, when
when the shooting happened in Las Vegas.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Like, I don't think it's coincidental that so often you
see us show up. You see women show up, you
see mothers show up, you see folks from marginalized communities
show up, you see students that are hopeful about their
future and also want to demand that they have a
better future, you know than the ones that have been
sort of sold out from under them by like greedy

(13:07):
folks in power. And I think there's no denying what
unity versus hate look like. And I think that was
sort of like the most profound part of it for
me last week was just you know, seeing everybody come together,
and you know, even folks have forged friendships with like

(13:29):
former Republicans who you know, ten years ago, you never
could have convinced me I'd be having dinner with or
regular phone calls with because I thought, oh, we're so opposed,
and it's like, no, no, we actually all really believe
in America and we love this country and and we
just believe that everybody has a place here. And what
an amazing thing to see folks stand up for country

(13:49):
over party. That that gives me hope? I mean, does
that make you hope that? Yeah, it is patriotic, and
like I wonder, you know, you talk about your son
and he's little, like, are those sort of the events
that make you feel really hopeful for the world we're
going to give to him?

Speaker 2 (14:08):
Yeah? I think when I am looking at people that
are just really really well educated, well spoken, you can
kind of tell cut through the bullshit and know that
like you believe them. I feel like we have a
good meter for that. I think a lot of people do.
And I think obviously what you were saying about the data,

(14:31):
the math, that's all like the building blocks of proof,
but so much of it, you know, with this like
twenty four hour news cycle, I don't know if we're
supposed to consume this much. Yeah, politics, it kind of
fries your brain. And I don't like agree with what
I understand when people like just put their heads in

(14:52):
the sand. But it's like, well, whether you do that
or not, someone's voting against you. So I think, yeah,
it's just something to put importance on no matter what,
because it's it is such a powerful thing, your vote.
And you know, I think just living is inherently political

(15:13):
at this point. Like I can't I can't just be
a woman in America and like just go live my
life and you know, pump money into the economy with
my voice and my my songs and just that be it. Yeah,
there's so much more to me and my wants and
my my morals and the things that I want to

(15:34):
especially like not maybe especially because I don't want to
like dismiss people that don't have children, but like I
do think that there's something that like kicks in for
me having only sort of been worried about myself for
so long after like thirty years now, you know, living
in this this moment in time with a four year

(15:56):
old with a little boy, and as a mother thing
a boy, there are things that responsibilities on me that
come with that, and just constant antenna up of like
who's he in interacting with? Like what are these ways that
he's processing and downloading information? Like I don't know if

(16:18):
he learns it from school or like randos, but like
he's you know, they'll they'll start like it's just a
natural thing for kids to do, like to gender everything
and even that like that's a whole other conversation, but
just well, you know, girls girls can like Spider Man two,
Like I don't know who's telling you they can't, Like
boys can like mermaids, and girls can like Spiderman. That's

(16:41):
the cool thing about living is you can kind of
like everything or not like something, and so it's just
on a fundamental level, it's so interesting sort of like
reparenting this inner child with a child that's having to
live in like twenty twenty four, with like access to
the world, and every thing just feels like so heavy.

(17:01):
It's like I'm truly trying to armor him and also
prepare him.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
Right. And now a word from our sponsors who make
this show possible. I find it really interesting because it's funny,
you know, just given the fact that last week was
such a big event, that was the first question that

(17:27):
came to mind for me. But normally I really like
to ask people because I sit down with someone, you know,
in an amazing moment in their career, like you're having.
You know, you you had such an incredible, you know,
rise in the music industry, and you know, I've been
such a fan of yours for so long, and even

(17:49):
to see how you've been navigating these recent years, like
everybody kind of meets you and knows you as this adult,
this performer, this woman. And I'm always really curious for
people if from where you sit in your life, you
can kind of see the through line to who you
were as a young person when you were like eight
or nine years old, and it's interesting to think about

(18:11):
asking you about your childhood and how it led you
here as you're talking about your own child, Like, I
wonder if if when you look back at your young
self in a way, you also kind of horseshoe around
and look at your son.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah, it's a really fun exercise to do that, and
also it can be really triggering because yeah, you'll have
a moment of oh my god, I sounded like my
mother just now, and like you know, you'll have the
rest of your life as a parent. But yeah, and
they're just things that you know, I can as an

(18:46):
adult now verbalized to him and articulate in a way
that maybe my parents couldn't or their parents couldn't. And
we just and that's just you know, the nature of life,
and you know, technology and knowledge is we know more now.
We have more resources now at our fingertips than our

(19:07):
parents and their parents did. So a lot of that
is just that part of the tools there, But then
also the sort of network of mothers and parents and
therapists and child psychologists and I'm just like all over
those algorithms on TikTok. It's just inner child work and

(19:31):
this and that. So there's a lot that I just
even gained from like a sixty second TikTok sometimes, so
totally yeah, and like the sort of therapy part of
society now where we can just truly destigmatize needing help
for your mind. I think the facet I went through

(19:52):
was like postpartum depression. So that was like a huge
fork in the road for me of like having to
be you know, figure out some stuff that I hadn't
uh before, and uh there was a lot more at
stake because it's not just me I have to worry
about anymore. So yeah, yeah, I think just like it's

(20:14):
not fun work. It's it's really like looking under the
hood and revealing things about yourself that you know, your
your maybe your mind was protecting you from for decades
and then you like step on the landmine and it
blows your ego up. You know, yeah, totally, but it's good.

(20:35):
It's good. It's all. It's all like really intentionally done.
And you know, I am a lot lighter and I
had to change a lot of like very huge things
in my life to get to this day.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
Yeah that's beautiful though, you know, I it's really interesting
because I think about it, especially when you've had these
sort of big transformative journeys, and you have to do
it in public. So many people get to just figure
out their lives and do it like just with their
best friends. They don't have to do it with the
whole world watching. And I think one of the things

(21:15):
that's been the most helpful as a mantra that I've
given myself in the last eighteen months two years, really
is it's okay that you didn't know. There are bridges
you can only cross when you come to them. You know,
you can think about your life, you can plan your life,
you can think that you know where things are going,

(21:38):
and then you get to that fork in the road
and you realize, oh, I just wasn't prepared for this.
I didn't know this would be what would be ahead
of me. With all my best intentions, with all my
planning and my coaching and my whatever, I didn't know
this part. And I think that that is something that's
so beautiful, and it's something I've really appreiated in particular

(22:02):
about your new EP, about the way you've put intermission
out in the world and the way you've been willing
to talk to your audience about it, because you've you've
really been upfront about the fact that sometimes in order
to keep going, in order to keep living your life,

(22:22):
you have to take it down to the studs and
start over. And it's not easy to do that. A
lot of people are afraid. A lot of people don't
feel like they have the option or the power. And
there's a lot of people who stay because they can't
bear the optics of leaving or choosing themselves. And I
don't know, I as someone who's you know, also recently

(22:46):
been through it, I was just like, we're out here, girl, Like,
we're out here doing this. Was it like incredibly cathartic
to write the new record? Was it necessary and hard?
Was it kind of all all of the above? I
guess maybe it's multiple choice answer d everything.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Yeah. I think, well, it depends on the song that
you're for. Two of these five, I think, you know,
this is how Woman Leaves, which is the last song
on the EP, was probably I think I was still
in a state of like like, I don't remember I

(23:27):
don't remember writing that. Wow. I think I was in
such a deep state of like shock, and again I
think my mind was like protecting me from like the
pain and trauma of that moment of my life. I
remember like I remember editing it, but the actual creation

(23:52):
of the song the day of no. I mean, it's
it's strange what your your brain will do to well
have full access to your verbal skills, but as far
as memories, it didn't want to log that one. So yeah,

(24:13):
I think Also it's I mean not to get into
like crazy specifics because it's like, you know, I still
have so much love for my ex and we are doing,
I think, like a great job at co parenting, and
this is all just new for us. But for me,

(24:33):
I became I'm a different person now than I was
five years ago. And I guess that's the part of
like relationships and marriage that it's sort of like, well duh,
like you grow with the person. But I can't like
fault someone for I don't know, being shocked or disappoin pointed

(25:00):
that the person that they married is just like completely
different now. I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but
for myself, like COVID like really changed me. I've been
performing since I was ten, so unfortunately a lot of
my and maybe you can like relate to this just

(25:21):
being sort of like a young actress and like being
in this guy like I wasn't in the public eye
that much, but like I was performing and being you know,
viewed as a performer since I was Yeah, like these
really formative years of like building your your you know,
your identity. So my identity like unfortunately, and I've learned

(25:42):
this in therapy, was like extremely enmeshed with praise, just
outside factors, completely removed from your own compass and like
self uh just needing to be in control, needing to
fall apart privately, but on the stage outward facing is perfection.

(26:05):
So a lot of complexes built up at an early age.
Something happened like in COVID, where I had been in
this role of like success, like all my hard work,
all my parents' support like for me as an artist
as a kid, like finally culminated into this like successful
few years of you know, having crossover hits and like

(26:25):
number ones and Grammy and this and that, Like that
was great. But COVID, like everything stopped for everyone. I
was nine months pregnant, so just everything in my body
was different, and I felt like I didn't feel or
look like myself tried to give birth, like the same
week the world's shutting down. They're like maybe threatening that

(26:48):
I can't even have my spouse with me when I
give birth, Like I mean, luckily that was not the case,
but well, it was a complete mind for me. And
then you know, having like this thing, all my tour
get canceled that year, and just of course, like postpartum
happened just circumstantially, but also the hormone part of it,

(27:09):
it's like a really hard thing to self diagnose. And
so I was just so lost for so long. And
I finally, like you know, with the help of like
my friends and family, got on like antidepressants and you know,
was still doing like phone therapy through COVID and then
just trying to like become a parent, you know, and

(27:30):
take care of a newborn. And there was just no
room left for like me, Yeah, and I couldn't really
right via zoom. It was just really hard for me
to connect with friends, like and try to write songs
through that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
That energy that you get creating with people is not
the same through a screen.

Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah. So that was just like completely doa for me.
And then just not being able to tour for the
foreseeable future, like my I just felt like extremely futile,
and I you know, there was a there was an
interview you were doing on this podcast. I can't remember
with who, but you were like, the burden is like

(28:10):
sometimes well most of the time on the woman's work,
you know, work you have to do mm hmmm. And
this is my own like issue. But I went through
like so many phases of trying to figure myself out.
Through those like years, it was like, Okay, I'm gonna
get an into deepressants, I'm gonna continue therapy, I'm gonna

(28:34):
start playing tennis, I'm gonna do hot yoga, I'm gonna
do this guided shroom trip. I'm going to go to
London for like six weeks once it's open to go
do so just to like get out of the States
for a second and figure out what the hell is
going on in my head. There's just like so many
layers happening of change, yeah, and like desperation to figure

(28:56):
out what the hell was going on with me. And meanwhile,
like you're taking care of like a now two year old, Wow,
you're having to like like you are not you're so
back burnered on yourself, like yeah, or like just doing
anything good for you because everything is like it's not

(29:18):
worthwhile if it's not difficult, Like work.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
And young kids really put you in survival mode too.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah, and like when things start to deteriorate, like in
a marriage or even in like a career. For me,
I was having to like really address some biases going
on in my genre of music. Like there were a
lot of things happening all at once, and it felt like, yeah,

(29:45):
I you have this guilt because you're like, I'm bringing
this all on myself. Everyone else is trying to like
tell me to chill out, and but it was like
I had just woken up and I couldn't go back
to sleep.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yeah, and now from our sponsors, and when your whole
self is calling to you and you actually have to
hear it. I do think there's a really profound thing.

(30:18):
I mean the way that like even just my chest
feels when you're telling this story, My insides are like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
Because I think when you grow up, particularly in any
arena that encourages you to be a performer, you are
taught to perform as a good girl, and you're raised
in a society that wants girls to be pretty and

(30:41):
quiet and sweet and take care of everyone else all
the time. And you know, for me, I really had
to start to examine the things that make me such
a good coworker and such a good friend can be
really detrimental to me and my one of one personal
life because I put everybody else first. I check in

(31:01):
with every department head in the morning. When I get
to set, I make sure everybody's doing well, they have
what they need. I will get to the end of
a seventeen hour day at work and not have asked
myself what I need. And when you learn to do
that for your whole life, and then the world shuts down.
And then whether you're going through a trauma like having
a new baby or trauma bonding as I know I

(31:22):
think I did, you can build. I mean, at least
for me, I'll personalize it. I don't want to generalize.
But I realized I could build on the anxiety and
on the small kernels of possibility. I could make those
things into a whole meal. And I love to commit.

(31:46):
I love to show up. It's like, well, if we're
going to do this project, let's do it one hundred percent.
If we're going to take on this task, I want
to learn the morals, the math, the national experience. I
want to glean the most information so I can do
things to the best of my ability. And the AHA

(32:06):
moment for me was not having a baby. It was
seven months of a fertility process where I went, oh,
I've just never crossed this bridge before, and this is
not a bridge I agreed to cross alone, and this
is not what I want the rest of my life
to look like. And everyone will say, what are you doing.

(32:27):
You've just made this decision. It's only been a year,
you know, that's not a long time. But the way
I think about life is, yeah, life might be short,
but life is also way too and long to spend
it miserable. And when your body is telling you you've
made your best efforts, you've literally tried everything, You've left
no stone unturned, you've put it all on the table,

(32:49):
and you're just not in the right place. Like if
you're not in the right room, you got to leave.
And I think it's a very disorienting thing to realize
as a performer that you you can't perform your life
in the quiet moments. And so when your brain, body,

(33:12):
soul are calling to you to see that there is
no more you can do, that it has to change.
Like that's a that is a wild journey and for
you to do that, Like I'm just thinking about how
hard it was for me, Like regardless of what it
might look like to the world, it was so hard

(33:33):
and so painful and so exhausting. And I'm like, I
didn't I didn't have to do it while also trying
to keep a tiny human alive. So like, hats off
to you, my friend. That is that is a journey
and you you left no stone unturned.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, well you can't, Like there just is no blind
spot anymore when you like take everything off your eyes.
And I think, you know, the people that don't get
it don't have to, Like they're not looking at the
iceberg under the surface of the water. They're looking at
what's And so I think, like also our intuition is

(34:11):
like nine times out of ten, correct. I think that
there's and it goes back to the performer thing. But
the sort of gratitude and like empathy and all these
things that you kind of are expected to have. There's
also like the threat of loyalty. I have that deeply

(34:35):
because I think that you know, it's a word, and
I do think there's such a concept of loyalty is
like truly put in the work with each other. But
it has to be fifty to fifty. And I'm not
just talking about you know, romantic relationships. I'm talking about
like employees. I have sometimes, even most recently, remained loyal

(34:58):
to a fault to people that like work for or
me that don't best interest like maybe they just everyone
has their own interests. That's the thing is, like you
could be the best boss in the world you and
this person has a completely like different, like set of
standards for themselves and like priorities. So that learned with

(35:18):
like my divorce and sort of like career separation has
been that this is not like, not everything is your
issue to fix.

Speaker 1 (35:29):
Yeah, it's not all your cross to bear.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, and that's really hard to unlearn when you've been
like in control. Well yeah, it's a delusion of control
or illusion and delusion of control. Yeah totally. When someone
like hurts you, yeah, so deep, because you're not just
thinking about how they hurt you, You're thinking about what

(35:54):
did I do to hurt them? I cause this that
is such a like common thing women are dealing with
on the daily. So when you are selfish or self protecting,
which I have had to become so in the last
like year and a half, like truly not cut off.

(36:16):
Maybe it could be red as cold or a belief,
but I am I just don't give every everyone my everything. Now. Yeah,
I do that for my close friends. I do that
from my son, I do that for myself, my family,
but like everyone else, I I can't do that with

(36:40):
everyone that I work with, work beside. I've just learned that.
It's I don't think I'm closing down. I think I'm
just like I'm protecting myself and not like I guess,
like lowering my expectations of everyone you know around me,
Like I hold the people close to me to a
high standard, but like everyone else, I'm like, you're gonna

(37:02):
get the like seventy percent version of me. Yeah, because
I have to protect my energy and my heart and
I am exhausted when I'm giving everyone my one hundred.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, it's really really hard. I mean, god, you know,
in the best way, but I felt that way when
I got home, even from Chicago. It's like every person
I saw, I was excited to see. Everyone has a
great mission, everyone has incredible purpose, and I would like
I got back here and I just crashed for the
weekend and I was like, Oh, I forget how much

(37:36):
showing up with my full self. Yes, it's amazing, but
it can be really draining. And to start to learn,
like you said, when you've kind of pulled all the
things out from over your eyes, you've taken off all
the blinders. I think part of the natural response to
that and self growth is that you start to also
have to learn boundaries. And it was like for me,

(37:57):
I went, Okay, I'm going to come home and be
with my partner and turn my phone off for the weekend,
and that's going to really be important to me, Like
I need to sleep and go in, I need to
hibernate like a bear for three days and then I'll,
you know, I'll get back into it. And it's interesting
because that like metamorphosis, that shift that I think so

(38:17):
many people went through in various ways, especially during lockdown,
when I think about how much you had going on
all at the same time, you know, with a new baby,
with figuring out that perhaps what you'd built your life
into wasn't really for you. You know. Also, as you
mentioned your intense feelings, where the morals were in response

(38:42):
to things happening in twenty twenty, like you know, I
think about the fact that the song you performed at
the DNC you wrote, as you said, in response to
the killing of George Floyd. I think about how you know,
when I met you in early twenty twenty three, I
was like, first of all, my friends and I are
obsessed with your song. We send each other videos singing
the middle, like literally every single time it comes on

(39:03):
the radio. But aside from the joy, like thank you
for speaking up in your space in country music in
defense of women like Mickey, you know, in support of
black female country singers, like you know, you pushed back
on Morgan Wallen for the horrifically racist shit that he said, Like,

(39:25):
I know that couldn't have been easy for you in
this world as you mentioned that you were raised in,
you know, from Texas to Tennessee. The conservativism what country
music often gets, you know, sort of used for or
like the things people sweep under the rug in that genre.
Like you were learning how to stand up for yourself.

(39:46):
It seems as an individual to listen to yourself, to
set boundaries for yourself, and you were like pushing back
on a whole industry and saying this is fucked up.
We're not supposed to be doing this, like don't we
know better by now? And I guess my question listening
to you talk about the lessons and the kind of
realizations and how all these things call less at the

(40:09):
same time, do you think some of the personal AHAs
came from your clarity on seeing the world around you
or did you see the world around you more clearly
because you were seeing yourself more clearly as you began
to deconstruct, like I call it the mythology of the
good girl.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
You know?

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Or were they maybe just happening in tandem like a seesaw.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
That's such a great question. I think it was in tandem,
because which is a lot. I wish one. It's a lot.
I wish one had come before the other because it
was a pard of maybe process. But I think it
was just you know, life' it's just happening. It's dogtailing,
it's it's threading, it's ribboning, and you're just there as

(40:53):
a passenger sometimes And I think, Yeah, being able to
articulate that is still tough for me because I just
I feel like, yeah, not I hate really like using
this word, but that is how I feel. It's just
like traumatized, and I think, you know that's that's part

(41:16):
of it. But I truly do think like I had
to scare the shit out of myself. I had to,
like what you mentioned earlier, take it down to the studs,
reevaluate most of the relationships in my life. And what
I'm left with, it's like it's leaned out in the
best way, And I think kind of amazing what you're

(41:40):
you're left with when you truly show people like who
you are and they show you who they are, and
all you can do is just like without regret, just
be like, Okay, I want everyone to be happy. I
want to have people first and foremost, Like I would
like to be happy, because if I'm not, like, how

(42:01):
am I going to show up for everyone else in
my life the way I'm supposed to? And I do
think it just took a lot of like years in
work to realize that I don't have to be just
in everything, like I can care and I can do
my part on it and speak up absolutely like that's

(42:24):
absolutely part of it. I knew showing up at the
DNC was a statement and going to like lose followers fans.
I'm surprised they hadn't been lost before. I think most
people have known where I've stood, but I knew who
I was singing to that night. Yes, yeah, watching, but

(42:45):
I was singing to my son. That's it. Yeah, I
can say, you know, without feeling guilt or like narcissism,
that I am doing everything within my power to leave
some version of this world better for him. Can't. I

(43:06):
can't take everyone's responsibility on. I can only kind of
focus on myself the environments that he's in that I do,
you know, pay attention to and have control over. I mean,
but other than that, he's gonna he's going to live
like a life where I'm just like the lighthouse and
I'm not like going to be there all the time,

(43:26):
every single day moment with him. So even that is
like losing control, and that's a big thing with myself too.
Is just that's Yeah, that was what was revealed, I
guess in my my shroom trip was like it was
a nightmare, but it was like, yeah, you're not in control.
We're going to strip everything down ego death Like you

(43:49):
weren't in control, never were, never will be. And that's
terrifying when you were like a child performer and that
your sense of worth for so long. But as you
mentioned before, it's like you learn really quick in these
like sort of trauma moments as an adult, like who

(44:10):
you are, and yeah, it doesn't matter who you are
to people, like who you are to yourself, how you
show up as a good friend, as a boss, as
a daughter, this and that, like every version of yourself.
I do think I know who that person is. And I,

(44:31):
of course, you know, never want to like rock the
boat intentionally, but I just know, like now with my
family and you know, friends that you know sort of
fell by the wayside, became like more superficial. They're not
like the core people in my life anymore totally. I
think they saw who I was and I've seen who
they are, and it's not a bad thing. I think

(44:53):
it's just like we don't need to continue growing together
in the same way.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
Yeah, and now a word from our wife wonderful sponsors. Well,
I think about it with you know, coworkers, friends, even
relationships like I actually wrote an article about this a

(45:19):
long time ago out I think it's really important that
we start allowing ourselves to look at reasons, seasons and lifetimes,
and sometimes you mistake a season for a lifetime. Sometimes
you have to come to terms with the fact that
you had a friend or a coworker for a season.
And that's great. But like people evolve, they move past,

(45:41):
they outgrow. Sometimes we mistakenly give, you know, more worth
or weight to something than it was meant to have.
And I think, again, especially for the performing daughter, that
can be really typical. But I do think there's there
is something really special about learning to love the world

(46:05):
when you're learning to love yourself, because you realize where
that if something is incongruous, you know it, and you go,
wait a second. If I can see that that's wrong
for my community, how can I tolerate it for myself?
And vice versa? Like if I would never let someone
speak about my friend like this in front of my face,

(46:25):
how am I going to let someone in my community
speak about someone who looks like my friend that way,
you know, And I know that that comes with a lot,
you know, certainly for me calling out you know what
it was domestic terrorism on January sixth, the like, the
increase an influx of death threats was so scary for me,

(46:46):
And I know you experienced that after you spoke out
about you know what Morgan Wallin had said, and I
think about, you know, how I react differently to that
sort of experience in the world now that you know
the world surrounding me includes young children, and I know
you went through that as a young mom, Like, how

(47:09):
how do you process that? How do you handle that
saying we shouldn't be cruel to other people makes people
be so cruel to you? Like did it make you
want to leave Nashville? Did it change the way you
know you and your family that are back home in
Texas have conversations about these things, or did you just
have to figure out how to navigate around it and

(47:32):
keep it pushing.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Yeah, I mean I think I've thought about this for
years because when you're so in the middle of this,
like eye of the hurricane, it's yeah, You're like, how
are people this pissed? Like yeah, over like the criticism
of cruelty? And I think it's because they're not only

(47:55):
like defending the person that said this, but they are
taking it personally as if I'm criticizing them, which I
think says you know a lot more about their interpretation
of criticism and what that content was. Then me as
a person calling out someone using the N word or

(48:20):
even like transphobia that I've criticized in the past that
sort of like exploded in another wave.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
I get that too.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
It's yeah, it's never like I've begun this. It's like
as someone that's appear and in the in the realm
of this music industry, just being like, yeah, let's do better.
That was a weird one, apologize, let's move on, like
go back to the show. But it was in such

(48:51):
a moment of time of like change in America and
like having these hard conversations. So yeah, I mean, like
the death threat portion for me as a young mother
was yeah, obviously like scary, and it wasn't death threats
against me, it was it was against my son too,
So it's like, oh, wow, now we're involving the kids,

(49:14):
the ones that you cared so much about. So it's just, yeah,
it's incredibly dangerous and scary, and you know, you just
open up a whole can of worms of crazy people
and pundits that like, you know, make you, uh, you know,
the kickbox the hell out of you. But I think
that yeah, ultimately, yeah, it's like I I look back

(49:38):
on what has happened, and I'm like I I've done
a lot of like work on myself and tons of
I mean, no one can guilt, trip me or make
me feel more like shit than myself. So I'm looking
at all the of that too. Yeah, like do you
That's like being a woman is like no one knows
how to criticize us more than each other or ourselves.

(49:59):
So I that when I really looked at everything, the
whole rap sheet of what had gone down the last
few years in my vocalness, I'm like, no, I stand
by what I said. I don't regret it, I don't apologize.
I feel the exact same way as I did that day.

(50:21):
What I maybe use the channels of Twitter again, Probably not,
there's probably like more dignified ways to get my point across,
but hey, it is what it is. Yeah, don't be racist,
don't be transphobic, don't be homophobic, like all the things.
Still stand by that. Like, so if you're expecting me

(50:42):
to feel bad, no, I actually the only thing that
made me feel bad was like realizing even in this
community of music here in Nashville and I still live here,
is like, oh wow, who will go to bat for
you or people of color? And who will go to
bat for them. Yes, I mean a lot of people

(51:03):
just unfortunately as you learn, like in these industries or
just life itself, it's like fear and sort of group
mentality and peer pressure and money, you kind of learn
really quick like who people side with it yep. But

(51:25):
I've made some just incredible friendships and relationships musical or
not through the last few years because it's it's terrifying,
but it's also amazing when people know where you stand
because you make relationships and friendships happen that maybe like

(51:47):
I don't know, people judged a book by it their
cover before, and now the world sees you as you
are or as you've shown them, and beautiful things come
from it. Like I've had so many incredible opportunities and
friendships to the last few years of showing my full self,

(52:07):
you know, the DNC being the most recent of them,
you know, getting an award from GLAD and like just yeah,
it's truly like connects with people and have them say
like thank you for saying it all because maybe they
grew up in the South and like yeah, grew up

(52:28):
in an environment or went to a school where they
were bullied and were made fun of for that thing,
and I think that's it's obviously like still so tragic
and heartbreaking, but when you find this community of people
that have been marginalized, and you know, as as a
musician and as a songwriter being like a conduit of

(52:51):
people's emotions through my own, yeah, out into the world.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
If there's one thing I wish I could do, they
would be to write music. Like it's so cool and
you know, to your point, like what you have been
able to represent for people, and I'm sure hear from
people like I'm one of those people. Your you know,

(53:17):
intermission is so special as an EP certainly, but like
for me, I was like, oh, this is the album
I needed, Like if I knew how to do what
you do, this is what I would have wanted to
write about the last two years, and like, I don't know,
I'm so curious about it, especially you know, because same

(53:40):
same like the sort of public experience of coming out
in one way or another, even for me where I
was like, have y'all just like not been paying attention
to my career or like any of my choices for
the last twenty years. Well, I don't know, but.

Speaker 2 (53:55):
It's like.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
One of the things I thought so much about was
to your point, like there are kids who get bullied
over their identities, there are kids who kill themselves when
they get outed, and like, you know, as someone who
was you know, essentially being outed myself, I was like, well,
I guess I didn't think I'd have to have this conversation.
It would just be what it is. And then in

(54:18):
a way it was like, well I want to have
the conversation, and like, if you want to shame me,
watch how proud I'm going to go out and be
in the world.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Like, yeah, you can't weaponize it.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
No, I was like, watch me celebrate, watch me It's
going to be delicious.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
And like when you.

Speaker 1 (54:33):
When you wrote Push Me Over with Muna, some of
my favorite people also in music, it was fun to
read about how you wrote it with that band after
you'd gone on a date with a woman, but you
talked about going through like by panic and it just.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Made me like giggle.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
I was like, oh my god, I want to talk
to you about all of this, Like what where do
you think that came from? And like how did you
decide to turn it into part of the journey of
the album, Like you made art out of this feeling
of what I assume was sort of excitement and overwhelm
all at the same time. Like, was that the first
aha moment for you that you also liked women or

(55:11):
do you think you had like maybe tamped that down
a little bit growing up in a conservative community.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
I just want to know all the things.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
I have so many questions.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
Yeah, I think it was something I always knew about
myself because the day I was writing this song with Muna,
having just come from this date the night before with
this beautiful woman in La, like everyone in La is
also like beautiful, so like dating again just like crazy.
But yeah, they were asking like when did you know?

(55:43):
And I was like, well, I think I've always known,
because you know, every girl is different. But like in
like you're high in high school. I just remember being
at like sleepovers where maybe like a ton of us girls,
some of us are super close, some of us are
like just meaning for a time or maybe like summer camp,
like we're just like Gayer. Yeah, you're just like Okay,

(56:08):
you're cute, and then you like have this bond and
there's something so tough to identify because women are just
innately well, we're wonderful and like we're lovely well, and
we just don't like small talk. From like age of
eight to now, it's really hard sometimes for me to
delineate my sexual attraction or just my like love of women,

(56:31):
because if I say, like with you, there's no small talk,
there's no bullshit. We immediately dive into something like really
meaningful and deep because we don't have to do this
like gay chicken for hours that boys probably have to do,
like you know, they can't like a great men like sys.
Men can't not just admit to each other like yeah,

(56:52):
this guy's hot, Like they can't do it. So when
hours like on a golf course, and you'll you'll be like,
oh my god, if I'd spent one hour with a
woman on a golf course, we would be talking about
our mothers. We'd be talking about some crazy trauma from
like third grade. I mean, we would just be getting
into it. And so I don't know about you, but
I've talked to like other women about this, and especially

(57:13):
like bisexual women of like just knowing. Am I connecting
with this person because it's just so easy and fun
to connect with women in general? Or is it because
I have a little crush? So that's sort of how
pushed me over began was that sort of conversation. And
then obviously like just feeling so safe in this room

(57:36):
with Muna like and Tobias Jess. Just being able to
like write a song about sex belonging but in a
fun way and it not being serious or deep. That's
what that was the breath of fresh air I needed
in my life in this chapter of dating totally and

(57:57):
truly like dating for the first time, because I've never
really had that phase of my life. I've been like, well,
two really long relationships, but.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
Yeah, and to be able to harness your giddiness and
let it be fun again, like how lovely, how lovely
to be an adult and to be like, oh.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
My god, I'm giddy. Yeah, and also maybe special displaying
this multifacetedness of you know, just being a person in general,
like being a mother, being in my early thirties, being
recently divorced, but still like having these discoveries and I
hope to continue having them till I die. I think

(58:35):
that sort of being on display is so fun and
refreshing because it's like not that I'm saying I'm like
eighty years old, Like it's never too late, but I
do feel like that with this EP. It's like, hey,
here's everything going on right now, and there's more to come, obviously,
but it's like the fun is never over, it's just beginning.

(58:57):
And that's yeah. It's fucking terrified what we had said
like an hour ago about you know this, this fear
of leaving or this fear of starting over, and there
are so many valid fears to that, whether it's financial
fears of separation or divorce, or breaking up a job

(59:17):
that doesn't vibe with you anymore. I mean, there's so
many valid reasons you could all day say to yourself
to stay because it's terrifying, Like it's it's nauseating to
hit hit the reset button, and it's not even like
a clean reset. It's like a complete implosion mostly and

(59:42):
it's messy and there's shrapnel emotionally everywhere on everyone, and
you're gonna carry guilt about that. I don't know if
that actually goes away. I'm doing this so I'll find out.
But I think the risk that you have to take

(01:00:04):
to be happy after trying everything, yes, like you deserve that,
and don't let anyone make you think that you did
it on a whim or selfish, or you're jeopardizing everyone
else's like life and future because of your own like
blah blah blah. I mean no, I don't know one

(01:00:28):
woman that did anything on a whim. They know we
will go through every and exhaust every avenue to make
sure something is truly not working.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors that I
really enjoy and I think you will too. The thing
that was really interesting for me to hear and like
hearing you talk about it, and even having so many
friends who all went through it last summer and like
friends going through it now, overwhelming theme for everyone has

(01:01:02):
been I should have trusted my guts sooner. It's never oh,
I did this too fast, It's wow, I really dragged
this out. I really like. I just I tried and
tried and tried and tried until it almost killed me.
And that that's something you know, like when we talk
about what we hope to build right for the future,

(01:01:22):
for the kids, for their kids, like I do hope
as we start to embrace more of our full selves,
we can start to build worlds where women don't like
beat themselves half to death to stay like I really
hope we can start to give ourselves more space to
not be as you were saying earlier, loyal to a

(01:01:43):
fault or loyal to the point of self erasure. You know,
do you feel like, because before we move on from
that topic, I'm so curious to ask, like, was part
of the reason that you wanted to come out publicly
because you knew you were like going to publicly be
going on dates with women with men, and you you
wanted to be able to like own it for yourself

(01:02:05):
or were you just like it's pride and I feel ready.

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
I mean a little bit of both. And I think
you know, knowing that this song was going to be
coming out too, I thought, yeah, well I can I
can either just drop this song into the world and
have people wonder. And I hate the like confusion, and
I felt like I wanted to celebrate it. I didn't
want to. And I also for myself, I just wanted

(01:02:33):
to have everything out there, like yep, I think those
are things that should be forward facing for me, not
do you, but for me, I was like, my life
is so open now, I'm not hiding any like any
portion of myself. So it was it was out of

(01:02:56):
like true like celebratory nature. It's Pride month. Yes, Like
I also loved not doing a stupid press release or whatever.
I was like, oh god, I was like, gag, let's
just do. I was like, I'm just going to put
it in like an Instagram caption, like on a tour photo,
so like it could literally just look like, oh, here's
where we played last night. Oh by the way, like, yeah,

(01:03:18):
I'm this letter. But no, I liked keeping it like
lighthearted because it's like it's it's not a thing that
is for me, a thing that needs like an entire
spiel or article on Like I was like, but you're right,
Like being in this sort of role of like never

(01:03:39):
having dated, I'm probably going to be dating, you know,
out in public. I would like to be able to
do that without any sort of like malicious intent from
you know, press or bloggers or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
So and they are wild yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
And I truly doubt they even care.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
But I was just like, you know, just so I
know that they do, I'll confirm for you they do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Well. I was like, some people know my views on
the topic and my words here it is, so nothing
gets twisted. So I'm so glad.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
It feels really good when you get to have agency
over your own story. And I'm always happy when people
get to have that, because you know, as a person
who's experienced having it taken from me and then having
to reclaim it. Like, I don't know, I just love it.
I'm proud. It's like it's nice to watch for people
who you know, you're a fan of or who you

(01:04:36):
care about. And I don't know, it seems at least
observing that it feels like a great moment and like
the album has been so well received and the story
that it tells resonates with so many of us, Like,
having had it out now for almost a month, how

(01:04:56):
does it feel for you? Is that there is that
the reaction, this kind of overwhelming positivity and me the
me too, Like I've been through that too.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
Is that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
What you're seeing the most of Like does it feel
really vulnerable? Does it feel really freeing?

Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Yeah? I mean it feels really vulnerable on a few
of the songs being out in the public, but like
kind of what I had predicted when I was recording
them and really trying to figure out what to put
on this. I was like, I can already envision myself
singing these songs live and like trying, laughing, connecting with
people and by the thousands, and so I think, you know,

(01:05:35):
for me, I do this now, like years in like
for my own therapy, to get this out of my body,
because like as a heavy impath, like when I don't
exert that energy or if I stifle it, if I
stay in a situation too long, like my body's hacking

(01:05:57):
itself like a lot of like stresses the last few years,
and like my hair will literally start to fall out,
and like that's how much you hold in. And so
I've just like learned to like truly express it in
a way that I know is going to bring me
peace and like it's never to hurt someone else. I'm

(01:06:18):
not writing these songs for any other intention than to
just heal myself. And the byproduct of that, which is amazing,
but it's not my reason for doing this anymore, is
that people can hear themselves in the story as well,

(01:06:39):
and I think that that's a beautiful thing. I have
no control over that, like whether you connect with it
or not, that's not my job. My job is just
to get it out. And I think that that's a
nice sort of like responsibility taken off my shoulders. Is
that like, yes, speak up, use your voice, write your songs, perform,

(01:07:02):
show up when you can. But ultimately, like just again,
it life's too short to worry about every single brain
in the world's perception of you. That you've got to
just figure out how to be happy and that will
emanate to you, well, my son, to others, to the

(01:07:25):
people that work for me, to fans, like that's an
aw ripple and that's amazing. But there's there's a there's
a selfishness that is absolutely warranted and healthy and and
and ripples outward in a mattered way. Uh. And I
think something that we don't get told enough is that

(01:07:47):
when you take care of yourself, people get taken care
of by proxy.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
Well, And it's it's that metaphor right of learning to
put your own oxygen mask on first. And I think
it's really related to that that phrase like people you
teach people how to love you, and when you tolerate
bad behavior to be nice, when you make room for
you know less than you deserve, like you can just

(01:08:15):
shrink yourself down so much that then you wonder why
everything feels so small and painful. And I think when
you get free, you inspire other people to get free,
and yeah, it's a beautiful ripple effect. It almost feels
like you just answered my next question. My favorite thing
to ask everyone at the end is what feels like

(01:08:36):
you are work in progress right now? And I wonder
is it that? Is it that like choosing of self
or is it a bigger thing although that's pretty big.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
That seems to be that the one like the main
course for me right now is like boundaries, which are
so hard to put in place with people that like
benefited from you having them. Yep, So from you know,
work to family to uh, employee, it's just everything like

(01:09:10):
I think, like boundaries but still keeping my my heart
open and having like a a curiosity and pureness about
the state of the world, and like doing whatever I
have to do on my end to retain that curiosity
and beauty. I think that it's not that hard to

(01:09:33):
find when you like, yeah, get all the distractions away
and keep those boundaries set. So I know that's like
very you know, therapy girl speak, But I think right
now that has been because once you start doing it,
you can't stop. It's so freeing because you're like, oh

(01:09:56):
my god, I'm finally talking to people now in a
way that I should have done ten years ago. And
now I can breathe. Now I'm like sleeping nine ten
hours a night, Like I'm not waking up at four
am with like anxiety pit in my stomach. Like just
it's finally like paying off those like people initial starts.

(01:10:20):
So and I just I get to like receive love
more now, like I've always received my son's love, but
like and now he's four, so he can like talk
and have conversations with me. So we just have this
connection that you know, we've always had, but now it's
more verbal. Just like truly being bowled over by the

(01:10:43):
innocence of children and like having I just wrote this
children's book with my best friend Karna, and like I
think like even through that a portal that's not music,
but still being creative and inner child work has been
a really like huge dose of joy in my life

(01:11:04):
and love that, yeah, and then just receiving like when
people are truly like connecting with you, like even dating,
it's like, yeah, a lot of it is a nightmare
and very like did but I think when you like
find a little spark, it's like, oh, I forgot I
could feel like this, this is not you know, I

(01:11:24):
can still have this happen to me, even with all
the protection and work I've done with myself, I can
still like feel something with someone, like someone who was
a complete stranger a few days ago, Like you know,
something magical about that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
There is I think, I don't know. It feels like
a theme to me is that you can always be
surprised and like you said, not to be cliche, but
it is never too late. And so I think to
I think, to be willing to lean into your courage
over and over again throughout your life is a pretty
beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:59):
So well, it's been such an amazing thing to watch.
It's just like you navigate your life and career and
personal life just with the public eye and the scrutiny
that comes with that, but also just like the power
that you have and how you use it for deep
connection with people and and for good yeah I mean,

(01:12:23):
and then just seeing you like and your energy last week,
I was like, girl, take your three days of like
the curtains, because you exerted so much love and energy
last week and like resource providing people with the actual
data like that, that's that is not just like you
hitting a button. That is like you using a lot
of your heart and brain and everything to just show

(01:12:47):
up in a way that you can. And so yeah,
I'm you're a badass.

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
You want as are you, my dear, and thank you
so much that really that means a lot. It feels nice.
It does take a lot of work, but it's like
being able to use a platform in that way feels
like such a calling for me, and I know in
so many ways does for you too. And yeah, it's
why I'm always excited when I see you in a room.
I'm like, yeah, because I know we're not going to

(01:13:15):
small talk and it's always great.

Speaker 2 (01:13:17):
Yeah, I know we cannot small talk. I love that
about us. O Maya.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Well, thank you for coming today, thank you for you know,
sharing your heart and your art, and yeah, I'm always
rooting for you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
Thank you well, same love. It was so nice being
on here, and yeah, I hope we see each other.
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
I'm like, we need to do this without the mics
and like a bottle of wine. Asa, Oh okay.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
Good, next time I'm in town, we should.

Speaker 1 (01:13:45):
I would love it all right, Okay, honey, you have
a great rest of your day.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
Thank you you too, Thanks everyone,