October 10, 2024 • 60 mins
For online content creators Penn & Kim Holderness, the saying, "the couple that works together, stays together," is spot on!
The couple, who have been married for over 18 years, are best-selling authors, podcast hosts, and Season 33 'The Amazing Race' winners. They join Sophia to discuss their new project, taking on the stigma of ADHD with their book "ADHD is Awesome."
The power couple opens up about Penn's ADHD diagnosis, reframing how people think about ADHD, dealing with 'time blindness,' the viral video that jump-started their company and the lessons they learned along the way!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Whip Smarties.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Today, we are joined by two guests that I just
I don't even know if I have the words to
describe how excited I am that they're here. I'm such
a fan of their work, their sketch comedy, They're award
winning videos. I mean me and you know eight million
other people who follow them across their social media platforms
and the two billion people who have watched said videos.
(00:38):
I'm not exactly new on the discovery here, but I
am long on the adoration. Today's guests are Kim and
pen Holderness. They have been married for eighteen years, and
over the past decade they have become incredible online content creators,
and now they are on a mission as a duo
and as parents to reboot how we think about ADHD.
(01:01):
They are bringing their trademark uplifting humor, which you probably
saw on The Amazing Race here on their podcasts, have
read in any of their best sellers, or you know,
listen to on their videos. They're bringing that humor and
their personal insights plus five years of research, which you
know makes my brain feel excited to share their experience
(01:24):
with a condition that affects millions of people around the world,
attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Penn was in college when he
was diagnosed, and although the signs of having a brain
that worked differently had been there since he was a kid,
he still had to go on quite a journey to
figure out as an adult what coping with his neurospicy
(01:45):
brain looked like. And as he researched how to do that,
he realized he wanted to write a book. So they
wrote this book together. They are sharing it with fellow
adhdars and the people who care about them. As you know,
one of the estimated ten million people in America with
a neurospicy brain.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I am so excited that they are here and so
excited to ask all of the questions. Let's get to it. Well, Hi, guys, welcome,
Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Today, Thanks for having us for excited.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, gosh, I mean, you guys have obviously so much history.
You've been married for nineteen years, and as you say,
you have a news background, you have this whole incredible
life you've created, and the things that you make and
the content that you produce. I want to like, I
want to go back before we catch up to where
(02:48):
we are today.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
How did you two first meet.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
In a bar?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
In a bar in North Carolina at Florida? We were Alada.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Yeah, so we were reporters opposite stations in Orlando, Florida.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Oh the competition.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Competition, and everyone says that were just so funny, but
like we were the only people awake. Yeah, Tuesday night
and it's twelve o'clock and you know, it's midnight and
we finally get off work. So thank god there were
other stations so we could like talk to other people.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Yeah, yeah, this business is actually very incestuous. So yeah,
I met him at a bar. Then, you know, a
few months later I saw him. We kind of connected,
and then I saw him during the worm on stage
and I was like, this man is mine, Like that
said it's done. Yeah, that's that's him. Yeah, So that
was it, and then we got we were engaged and married,
(03:42):
Like we were engaged within nine months and then married
nine months later.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So yeah, incredible.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
When y'all were growing up, did you envision being public figures? Like,
can you sort of see a through line from your
childhood dreams to what you do now? Or has everything
just taking five left turns and you can't sort of
believe this is where we find ourselves today.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
I mean, you do have that poster I did stand
out in front of The Today Show when I was
in high school that said like future NBC News anchor,
and Katie Kirk signed it when she was on.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
The Today Show.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 6 (04:17):
You know.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
I grew up in a small town in Florida, and
I always wanted to be a writer, and I didn't
know and I loved comedy, but I just didn't really
see a path as a writer besides a newspaper writer
or some sort of like television reporter. So I just
didn't see a path any other path. And I always yeah,
(04:38):
and I always kind of pictured myself behind the scenes
on things. So this is weird and a thousand left turns.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I wanted to be a musician for a long time,
but I didn't really have the patience to learn a
lot of the inside the music. But I felt like
I had like a creative side to it. I played
in I was part of a lot of music theater
growing up in high school, and so that got me
into doing a cappella and in a band in college.
(05:07):
And I was like, oh, maybe I should be in
a band, and my parents were like, what are you
talking about, No, you can't be in a band. Go
find a real job. And so the closest I could
find to a real job that didn't bore me to
death was working for a local TV station, which had
no real, real musical element to it. But I did.
I did that for almost two decades before we started
(05:30):
this next just bizarre left turn into the internet, where
you can really do whatever you want.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So how did that happen?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
How do you go from working in the news to
having this digital career?
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Yeah, so we question, Yeah, all right, so we I
didn't see my kids. I just could. The way that
local news works, you either work from three to twelve,
like three am to twelve noon, or you work from
three pm to midnight. And when your kids are younger
than not really going to school, and they're just like
balls of you know, skin rolling around everywhere, it's like, well,
(06:05):
like I can see them whenever. It's fine, I'll like
see them for a long time. But then when they
start going off to school, you really don't see them.
And so Kim had started a career where she was
doing video production for other entities.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Like shooting videos.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Yeah, and well, and because I'd been in sports and
in journalism for almost twenty years, I had some experience
shooting and editing. And she was like, look, maybe we
could just make this work. Like I was a news
anchor at the time, but like instead of being a
news anchor, you know, I know you know how to
shoot and edit, Like you could be my shooter and
(06:42):
my editor. I offer you zero benefits, a share of
what we make with no salary. What do you think
And I was like, great, let's do it.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
And so to set the scene there, we had two
months in savings, we had two young kids. We were
giving up like benefits and a good job, but I
was so it was just like a miserable existence. And
so that Christmas, so the first video we did.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Our kids were six.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Or and six, and they weren't really sitting still for
Christmas card picture. So we decided to make a Christmas
video and we would send it around and hopefully like
my mom would share it, and then like his aunt
would see it, and then maybe local companies would hire
us to do their video production. And we he wrote
a parody song and it was like in my Christmas
(07:33):
Jammis and it went like crazy viral and it was
on all the news shows and all that stuff. So
that video, actually that changed our lives because after that,
it still took us several years to figure out how
we're doing what we're doing now, But that we got
like ten thousand emails for people who wanted to hire
us for our company.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Well, we put our email on the video, like, hey,
we want to if you want to work for us
in a while we're dancing work with Doma's car, hire us.
Here's our here's our email address. And then so we're
so stupid we thought like maybe our you know, parents,
We put our home address on it, our driver's license,
you know, was our car license plate was on there.
(08:12):
So like a lot of our personal information was on
this video. They got somewhat million people, and so that
sucked when we had to figure out how to Yeah,
we learned some lessons, but it also.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Learned some lessons and probably moved.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Yeah we moved, but but it it did allow us
to start like a new direction of just being creative
on the internet. However, we wanted that's not cool, not
being beholden to eleven pm deadlines.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's also so interesting to me. Two
things that really stand out that you've said knowing about
the new book is then you said that you never
had the patients are in the instruments. I'm like, oh,
the graveyard have failed hobbies, were never executed? Hobbies that
exists all over my home, the stacks of books, oh dear.
(09:04):
And then you also said it's taking you a it
took you a couple of years from that video to
sort of figure out what your thing was. And for
folks with ADHD, like not knowing what it is immediately
or not being really good at it right away can
be the reason that we quit things. So I'm fascinated
(09:25):
that you were able to take some time.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Did that feel like.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Did that time feel like an exciting journey, almost like
being at a TV station and learning something in real time?
Or was it torture for you? And she kept you
on track? Like how did that work?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Yeah, it's so interesting. So I think that I really
never found the way to see the world from thirty
thousand feet above, you know, like a good project manager
would do. I just kept doing, like, oh wait, I
did something that worked, squirrel, what's the next thing that
I'm going to find and do like I'm just repeat, repeat,
(10:06):
I'm gonna do this again. And in some ways that worked.
It helped build our audience up, but we didn't do
it with a ton of consistency, and we were still
doing all the things we promised people on that video
that we would do, which is like make videos for
the dentist office down the street, but.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
We made videos like we weren't in them, but we
were like behind the scene producing commercials for like companies
and brands.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
But we had the most fun when we just put
everything down and we figured it, this is just going
to be like a free thing that we're not going
to make any money on because we didn't know how
to monetize videos like hey, let's do something about let's
do another parody. And those parodies kept doing well and
they kept you know, making national news and they kept
building up our audience. So for me, really what it
was was not taking a minute to stop and say
(10:54):
where are we going with this? The question of death
right exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
I would ask him like where do you see yourself
in five years? Where do you think this is going?
And he's like, oh, Vicky, like I don't want to
answer that I don't know. Yeah, so I think it's
the fact that he didn't allow himself to zoom out.
And I didn't know. I mean, who knew ten years
ago that the internet would look like it does today?
So like I didn't have I wasn't smart enough to
(11:22):
know what sort of platforms would exist.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
We'll be back in just a minute after a few
words from our favorite sponsors.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And how did you guys.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Now when you kind of look at what you've built,
how do you determine.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Where your boundaries go?
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Because, like you said, that first video went in all
these places you didn't think it would.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
People figured out where you lived. You literally had to move.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
What what is the kind of filter that you pass
opportunities through or or that you make decisions on what
to share, what not to share? How much of your
life you know, especially because it's like to your real life,
it's your personal life, it's your marriage, it's your family.
(12:13):
You you love this stuff, but also it's a weird
world out there. How do you make sense of that tornado?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Well, we quickly set boundaries around our children. We were
aware that when this video went out and our kids
were on it that we didn't give them a choice
whether or not they wanted to be in a twenty
million via video because we didn't know it was going
to have that many. So that was the start. You
see a lot less of them as if you look
through the ten years we've been doing this as time
goes on. For a long time, it's been they have
(12:40):
to either well they have to want to be on it. Uh,
And a lot of times that's always been yeah, that's
I mean, yeah, that's always been the case. In addition,
like if they asked to be on it, a lot
of times we'll say this isn't really appropriate, like this
isn't this is too much exposure. But a lot of
times are these brand deals that come to us and
they're those are, to my in my opinion, like a
(13:01):
little more harmless. And those videos they get paid and
so they have they have a really nice college fund
now because they've been is part of their living. And
my kids spoiler alert kids really like money money.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
So I will see they get a paycheck from us,
and they always have. So like that first video, once
we finally realized how to turn on monetization, like they
have Coogan accounts, you know, what I mean, like they
have so I'm sure we've screwed our kids up. Oh yeah,
hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Everywhere everybody does. That's not that's.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Yeah, it's but I will say they're gonna have bank,
they're gonna be able to pay for therapy. So they
are I joke, they're coin operated because when they get
low on cash because they're now fourteen and seventeen, they're like, oh,
they're pitching videos to us because they know they have
a baseline of money they make just because they are
in existing videos. But they're like, hey, mom, what if
(13:55):
we did because they just want to make some more money.
So it's but the other boundaries, it's a really good
question because we had none and didn't know how to
really do that in the beginning because I don't think
we were. We weren't thinking big picture enough. We weren't
thinking about any of this, And I have regrets around that.
(14:16):
I have regrets around how much my kids were in
videos and all of that. We've deleted some, we've hid some,
but now like we don't we very rarely show our
bedroom we're using like a guest bedroom. We're very there's
like spaces in our houses that are in our house
that are private that you'll never see, but again, it
(14:37):
is our house, so it is super weird. We close
the laptops around like five o'clock and that's it, and
it's like no work talk. We try to really limit
that discussion in our marriage, Like we went to marriage
counseling and that was one of the things like we
needed to shut like it is like product is our
(14:58):
life and it's very authentically us, but that can't be
driving what our conversation is on a date night. So
definitely work in progress and we had a lot of
work to do on that.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I think that's really beautiful though, because at the end
of the day, there's no guidebook for this. And when
you talk about like, oh we regret fill in the
blank from early days, like I feel that in my bones.
And something I've also learned as an adult diagnosed with
ADHD PEN.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Is that like the justice complex.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
That can come with being a little neurospicy, I love
that about myself, Like that that makes me an activist,
It makes me a good journalist.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
It does all these things.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
But that obsession with truth when I was like when
I'd been twenty one for nine days and then I
got on a TV show, and I went from like
co sharing a philanthropic thing at my college to like
being on television.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I had no idea what I was doing.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
I didn't know I didn't have to answer everybody's question
ends and interviews. I didn't know that I shouldn't just
be open about my personal life, Like I didn't understand
the business of any of it, and that the obsession
that that created that I sort of got like used
as product for for an early aughts TV show, like
(16:22):
as an adult person who has done all of the
wonderful things.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I've done and like you know, built schools.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
And interviewed vice presidents and like just the things that
I'm so proud of, Like the the personal life obsession
chases me because it makes money for tabloids and I'm like,
there is so much more interesting shit that I do.
But like, okay, so when you talk about that, like, oh,
(16:49):
we regret this and we try to shift it, Like
I have the same thing. I regret that there was
no crash course to teach me what I didn't know,
because I have to kind of retroactively trying to go
back shift, refuse to answer questions like redirect conversations that
I'm like, man, if anybody taught any of us who
(17:10):
were getting into the world of media that loves to
feed on our personal lives, like if anybody gave us
like a ten page guidebook, it would have been great.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
But don't you think like early Oughts, especially that is
when like the Perez Hiltons of the world were coming up,
like you didn't know it yet, there was no guidebook.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
It was bad because that we.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Didn't we didn't know as consumers that that, Oh, that's
really inappropriate for us to see this and know this
about this person. I think it's maybe it's better now,
I mean, I but like I know, I know with
kids are better, but there's some things that it's just Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
So you started that conversation by talking about this sort
of like inner voice, this InterVoice of justice that you have.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah. Do you have that too?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Yeah? Yeah, but I want to know for you like
that when I have it, I it conflicts with the
part of my ADHD that I think I've learned to
control but not completely. And that's like the emotional flooding
when I get really really upset about something where I
get like fixed by something emotionally, what was it like
for you when you were twenty one?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (18:19):
What was the emotional slud? Like?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
It was so hard and and you know, being for us.
I talk about this a lot with my best friend
from my first job. You know, she had a little
more experience because she'd been hired in college as a
VJ on MTV. She was going to school in New York,
and so.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
She kind of got to know the music scene. So
she came into our show with like a little bit
of knowledge. I was like, bitch, I came onto.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Our show three years after I graduated from an all
girls school with fifty five girls in my graduating class, Like,
I didn't know anything about anything, and it you know,
it's interesting for us because the thing we had in
common was that we were you're expected to be so professional,
(19:05):
like you're the lead on a television show, and so
I kind of just followed a lot of what she did.
I was like, that's a mark.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I stand on the thing with a tape on the
floor shaped like a tea, Like, all right, which color
is my mark?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (19:19):
You know you there was this sense of like I
can't let anyone know I'm just a kid, because I'm
twenty one, damn it, and I'm an adult, and so
there was a lot that we didn't even know to
ask for help on. And I think the folks who
realized they could make you know, so much money on
naive kids loved that they could be like, well, this
(19:43):
is how it goes, and we'd be like, okay, it
wasn't really we had no idea. It wasn't really until
later jobs where we were like, oh wait, this set,
this functions very differently than where I come from. This
feels like professional. What do you mean the writers want
to meet with me to talk to me about my
story arc. You're not just going to like hand me
a script on a Tuesday and tell me to start
(20:03):
acting it on a Wednesday. Really, like, there were all
these things that we just didn't know, And so I
think that's that for me. Is what comes up when
I think about your question, Like the emotional flooding, I
think I could excuse with oh, well, of course, I'm
(20:24):
really overwhelmed. This is really overwhelming. I just went from
taking college classes to filming eighteen hours a day on
a TV show, Like, of course, I'm really overwhelmed. I
moved away from my parents and every single person I know,
and I barely have time to talk to anyone who
knows me. Of course, I'm overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Like I didn't.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I didn't get the difference because there were so many
things that I think could excuse the big feelings. Yeah,
and when you go to work, you get trained, like
to perform well, to be a good soldier, to like
always be cheery and whatever. So especially for me understanding
how that these versions of neurospiciness present differently in women
(21:07):
and often are easier for women to mask because we've
been raised being told to mask our emotions, our whole lives,
to be good girls. I was like, oh, man, we
really like us ADHD girls get really set up to fail.
And then I was sort of it really blew my
mind in a good way as an adult, to go, Oh,
(21:28):
the things that I feel so much shame about in
my life are actually not indicators of my willpower, my strength,
my intelligence, any of it. It's hard for me to
see time as linear. I see it as a vertical stack,
and it's very overwhelming to me. Oh, okay, that's why
(21:49):
to do lists can feel hard to tackle. I don't
know what's the most important thing I have to talk
through it and reorganize my to do lists into chunks,
and like some of my friends just don't have to
do that.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
But it took me a long.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Time to learn that I wasn't too sensitive or biting
off more than I could chew, or too smart for
my own good. Because I am a language person. I
do like when you said, I don't like to zoom out.
Where I zoom out is on like politics, policy, society, justice, activism.
So I can zoom out and stay in my like
(22:24):
nerdy little data land all day because then I don't
have to really feel my feelings either. Oh so the
whole Like, now that I see it all, it's kind
of like someone gave a kid who who can't see
a pair of glasses.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I was like, oh my god, is this what leaves
look like on trees?
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:45):
I just thought it was like a green blob. Like
now that I get it, I get it.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, I've felt that way since working on this book.
Just like that learning about how my brain works. Right,
because most people you explained to women, you know, they
are trained to and are very good at internalizing their difficulties.
They go undiagnosed three times more than men minorities same,
a very similar situation. So of course it's like the
(23:13):
loud you know, white kids running around that getting all
the medicine. I ended up being like more inattentive than hyperactive,
So I wasn't diagnosed until I was much older either.
But when I learned, Okay, the reason why I am
unable to make it through a task is because my
brain is it has a bunch of on and off switches.
(23:35):
They're not dimmers like on a light mixing board that
you can bring up like twenty percent of each one
of them in a perfect composition of all these eight
lights or things going on. I've got a bunch of
on off switches and when I turned one of them on,
the rest of them turn off. Yeah, and I got
to go find them. They've left my working memory and
just like living for forty five years because even when
(23:57):
I got diagnosed, no one explained this to me. They
just handed me some Dexadron, which, by the way, is like, no,
it's like meth They speed God like, that's what they
gave them. A little is not good for you.
Speaker 6 (24:10):
Well, it got me through college and then I took
myself office.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Yeah, I took myself off of it after a little while,
but I never really understood it. So I interview a
gajillion psychologist for this book. They explain that part of
my brain and it's just like you talking about putting
on glasses. Holy crap, that's how this works. Okay, Now,
what like, how can I get to work to keep
(24:36):
the systems in check so that the other part of
our brains sofia, which are wildly spontaneous and creative, and
the reason you've been so successful not only in your
former acting career but in your ability to express yourself
in this new career. Those things come out now that
you're able to keep the other systems in check and
also keep your emotional flooding in check.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
M h, Well, it's even a thing for me, like
learning the I am so motivated by so many things,
Like I've had to visualize my career into a couple
of buckets, and then I try to apply my creative
skills to them instead of feel like I'm just not
(25:15):
quite capable of doing any one thing. It's like, no,
my superpower is actually that I can focus on a
bunch of different things and be additive to all of them.
So I have my day job, I have my film
and television career, and now that I'm also producing things
that I act in, Oh my God, like music to
a ADHD person's ears. And then I've got this political
(25:38):
bucket of you know, causes big and small that I
love to work on. That's really what led me into
the financial activism for women and working with the first
Women's Bank and running this fund with my best friend,
Like I have figured out how to when those switches
turn on, build system around them that help keep me going,
(26:02):
because if I try to do it all alone, like
people whose brains are wired like us, we are not
lone wolves.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
We are not. That's not for me. I need my humans.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
So it's like I produce TV with two of my
best friends now, and I do this financial work with
my best friend whose son is my godson and like
the literal light of my life. And I have my
team that I do political work with. And when I
work in cohort with my humans, it's it's like my
brain is being stimulated really well all the time. But
(26:36):
having folks who see time in a linear fashion as
opposed to a vertical fashion like me, means they can say, like,
don't get overwhelmed. This is the next task, And I'm like, great,
if you just tell me what it is, I can
go do it. But if you ask me to pick,
it's like it's like putting a person without a driver's
license in one of those Parisian roundabouts, Like.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Good luck, there's nine roads in.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
A certain How in God's name do you expect me
to know how to navigate this? Like I realize other
people have intersections and I have roundabouts, and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
I've never heard someone say they the vertical? Is that
how you see time?
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I definitely don't see it linear.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
I call it time blindness.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yea, but that, oh big time.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
He doesn't And your list, your to do list? He
put forty seven things on a to do list. I'm like,
the laws of space and time still apply to you,
Like you cannot get to all of these things, like
he he is blind, love you, babe to the amount
of time things will actually take.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
But I've never heard somebody say vertical.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
And that's such like a cool way to like talk
about the differences, like of course it's a straight line
in front of you, but no, it's not at all
for you.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, and time blindness is so real.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Like this is going to sound wild, but I have
actually so that my brain can understand. Like, if you
look at my calendar, it's horrible to look at there's
too much going on. But because of that, like if
I see a blank space in the calendar, I'm gonna
fill it.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
So I have had to even start.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Like when I do a day like today and I
block podcasts, I will put an eight minute break in
between the two interviews in my Google calendar. And people
are like, why are you doing that? Because if I don't,
I won't pee and I won't eat.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, Like, I have to do that.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
If I have a meeting and it's not on Zoom,
I put the drive time before and after the meeting
in my calendar because if I don't, I will think
I can do something during that time and that's not
physically possible because I can't teleport.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
Yeah, you need to probably the drive. That is a
good strategy. You need to put drive time in your calendar.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
It really helps.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Yeah, because hell, the meeting will be at two and
again we live in Rawleigh and we don't live in
LA but it'll be one fifty seven and he'll be like,
I got it.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
You do not got it.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
You don't got it.
Speaker 5 (29:02):
You do not gotimes sometimes at it, but I do
know the times you do not got it.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, And what I did, like I don't know if
you love to color code things, Penn, I do like
I have one color in my calendar, like in the
drop down of you know, twelve colors you can pick.
That's just for real time, so like driving a food break, so.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I know, I'm like, no, no, no, that is real.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Like if it says on my phone it's going to
take me twenty seven minutes to drive to a meeting.
I put thirty five minutes in the calendar just in case,
and it's just in there, and I know that it's
like a way I can push back against my inner adolescent.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
That's like I could beat that.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
And I'm like, no, because my inner thirteen year old
is combative and I'm forty one and I need to
be responsible.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
So I want to talk to you about that because
that that's been one of the biggest breakthroughs for me
over the last couple of years. And I think that
a lot of adh people struggle with this, and if
they're listening, obviously accepting the fact that easy stuff is
going to be hard for us. That inner thirteen year
old is always combative, right, and sometimes that lasts all
(30:14):
the way until you take your dying breath. Just like
I'm not going to make a calendar. I'm not going
to make a checklist, mom, I'm not going to make
a list of brush my teeth at the end of
this is for say, like a ten year old kid,
but I do. It makes it easier for me to
accept that the easy stuff is hard for me when
I remember that our type of brain, a lot of
(30:35):
times the hard stuff is easy for us. So exactly
the other way.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
We'll be back in just a minute. But here's a
word from our sponsors. Well, and that's the thing is,
I've had to realize that it's a ratio game and
everybody has it. And in the way that I can
remember data political fact, explain to you how an injustice
(31:01):
here is tied to an injustice here, and it all
traces back to the nineteen sixties. Because of this, and
did you know what happened with women in Iceland in
nineteen ninety four when they did the walk out of work?
And people are like you are like a freaky genius.
I'm like, sure, that's my superpower. But I will forget
to drink water if I carry this. I literally brought
(31:23):
props for today.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I'm friends at home.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
This is a big, solid metal water bottle that I'm
showing my lovely guests. If I carry this around, this
has been full for two days. I won't drink it
because I can't see it. I don't know how much
water is in there, and it might as well be
that could be.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It could be a lamp. Yes, but Mason.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
From Home Goods changed my life because this is thirty
two ounces of water and I've had two of these
today because I can see it, and if I'm looking
at it and the water has been at the B
line for two hours, I know I'm not hydrated.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
This is why the magnets work so well.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
So he has a magnet he has on top of
his car well because he's a giant and he can
see the top of his car. But it doesn't actually
hold anything. But it's just a visual cueue of don't
put my coffee cup there, because we were losing coffee
cups on the daily because you know, you like just
you're caring.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
All set it down and then you forget yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:24):
And there's a there's a magnet on the dryer of
like take my he has to take his inhaler and
chaps to stick out before he's doing lunching like those
like visual cue, extreme solutions smart.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So part of what really helped me crack that my
brain was wired a little differently because again I think,
especially for women, we we are so good at masking
that we often don't get diagnosed. And you know, and
I don't say this to be like ooh, amazing, like,
because one thing I've also learned about ADHD is the
(32:57):
intense shame spiral.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Like nobody's meaner to me than me, to be clear,
So anyone.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Who thinks what I'm about to say is like egotistical,
I'm like check that, check that at the door. But
the level of intellectual capacity that I have, my love
of language, eloquence and you know, memory for facts was
also People were like, you're way too smart to have
a learning disability. But I cannot remember those simple little things.
(33:26):
I don't know where the car keys go, I don't
know why I picked up my phone. I'll walk into
a room to do something and it's gone. And something
that actually helped me start to hack it years ago.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I read that book.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Atomic Habits, Yeah, James Clair, And when James Clear started
talking about habit stacking, I was like, oh, and the
visual queuing. If I fill up a mason jar with
water and I put it next to the sink on
my way to bed, like from the kitchen, I leave
it in the bathroom, I go to bed, then as
soon as I brush my teeth in the morning, I'll
(33:59):
drink a jar a water because drinking water is really
hard for me to remember. And that seems so silly,
but like it has health impacts.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah, no, yeah, like the easy stuff is hard.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
And so then it got to be really interesting. And
that was a clue for my doctor, who was like, oh,
the visual clues are a that's a key hole for
you to look through. And that was one of the
things that really helped lead us to a diagnosis for me,
because you know, they have to add up all the
things and see if it sticks. So how do you decide,
(34:34):
I mean decide or maybe Kim, you said you should
get checked out for this, Like how did it happen?
How did you start to figure it out?
Speaker 6 (34:41):
Well?
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I got diagnosed when I was in college, oh, you
said that.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
But but it's like I can answer your question because
there were kind of two phases of my ADHD. Phase
one was college. I was on academic probation twice at
we'll name drop Katie Correct at Katie Couric School a
little bit younger, but like it just didn't work for me,
these big auditoriums where I wasn't in front of the class,
(35:06):
like you know, I'm always one of my biggest hacks
in high school was I sat front and center or
else I would space out. And it's possible in college.
And so I'm starting to think maybe there's something that
I need to I need to talk to a doctor.
And then my grandmother died. I was at her funeral
and the family was all sitting around talking about what
are we gonna do about our beach trip, you know,
our family beach trip. And I was getting sad and
(35:28):
thinking about that, and my aunt Zell goes pen, this
is a really emotional conversation. I can't concentrate because you're
chewing on a fly swatter right now. So I had
a used fly swatter in my mouth and I was
chewing on it. Wow, And so I'm like there's something
that needs to get checked out. So that was your habit,
your habit stacking mine was I was chewing on a
(35:48):
fly swatter when talking about a difficult subject in My
psychiatrist was like, that's emotional dysregulation, that's fixation. That's all
Like he's you've got ADHD. Congratulations, here's this medicine. This
will help you with emotional regulation, This will help you
with conversations, this will help you with everything. It did
all the things that he said it would do. I
(36:11):
took myself off of it after about a year because
I felt personally like the side of my brain, the
creative side, which really specialized in taking everything in and
not keeping it out, like letting it come into me,
was the reason that I was able to create musically.
(36:31):
So I took myself off. And all of that is
to say I took medicine. I took myself off of it.
I found a job in television where like micro deadlines
really help and they're good for an ADHD person. I
did nothing to put any systems in place. Right when
I first met Kim, I lived in a house that
had one towel, And you want to talk about the towel.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
Well no, it's like, well, you use it, you're clean
when you get out of the tower. It's like self cleaning.
Why would you need more than one towel. I think
that's less ADHD and more just poor hygiene.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Okay, maybe no.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
I do think that his ability to kind of his
I think a lot of our success is tied to
the fact that he allows all of the and his
brain allows him just like you like all these ideas
on everything. Try telling him he can only do one thing,
but that's not going to happen.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
And and you have this.
Speaker 5 (37:26):
So Penn also has this crazy memory. He can if
he looks at something, he can remember it. And so
ADHD folks, they don't have a lack of attention. They
have an abundance of attention. It just has to be
something they care about. So for you it's your activism
and the politics and the history of it. And for
Penn it's like weird movie quotes and music.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
So it's a lot of it. So that was phase one.
Phase one was college, got through it, managed to somehow
marry a woman way above my way whatever, out kicked
my whatever it was. And then like really the second
phase was when we started a company together and I
(38:09):
was kids and my executive functioning redline. It really did,
like stuff started falling through the cracks. I was leaving
stoves on as I left to drop my kids off
at school, and like almost burning the house down. I
was forgetting he's leaving him in the cars, realizing that
like if you do that, someone could not only break
into your car, they could get into your house. Like
(38:31):
there were there were danger issues with my IDOHG because
I was getting overtaxed. And so that was like I
think our next step where you were asking if Kim
did something, I think when when we decided to write
this book. I think Kim knew that this was going
to be a form of therapy for me earn what
was going on in my brain, to understand it, and
(38:53):
that that would empower me to put those systems in
place that you just talked about, those sort of sorts
of a time habits that can help get the most
out of my brain. I just spoke for you.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
I'm sorry, yeah, do it. Man's plain away.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
That's not like man's plainning.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
No no, no, no, help me out.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
With man's planning. I get accused of man's planning.
Speaker 6 (39:13):
Sometimes I don't know it as a joke because you okay, good,
You're good.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Well.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
One of the things I've learned too about the way
our brains work is that it often comes with a
desire to over explain, to make sure that other people
understand what's going on in our brains, where you're like, no, no,
I get it, Like I know I'm the odd man out,
but I'm also.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
In on it. So let me tell you this thing.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And I feel so lucky that you know, some of
my best friends have been on this journey with me.
Every so often we'll look at me and go, I
must stop you there, I get it, I'm with you,
and I'm like, okay, I'm going to stop talking because
I'm just still talking. It's yeah, I'm like, I just
want to make sure we're on the same page, because
(39:57):
I know I'm always on another page and people are like, you're.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Fine, has calmed down, You're good.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
But I find it funny on that topic, like I
love watching the way you guys banter together and talk
about this, And also that you knew that this would
be good for both of you writing this book, because Kim,
You've said that so many of the things that you
were initially and are attracted to about Penn were because
(40:21):
of his ADHD. So like as a neurotypical partner of
a neurospicy human, like, what is what's your perspective? Like
what do you think those positive qualities are? And how
do you work around the fact that you're human is
wired differently than you?
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Great question.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
Yeah, I mean he's spontaneous and hilarious and he was
interested in so many things which made him interesting to me.
So like all of those things, sign me up. And yeah,
when there was like we had two kids and people
would joke, oh, it's like you have three kids, I'm like,
that isn't actually not funny, not at all. He's he's
a very good partner, I will say I in doing
(41:04):
the research, this took us five years, and doing the research,
I think the most impactful thing I learned was about
the adh deer's working memory. So I used to get
very deeply offended when you know, we went on vacation
one time and we were all kind of sitting all
over the plane. It was at carry on suitcase situation.
(41:24):
We get off the plane in Florida and he didn't
have a suitcase he's like, Babe, I just left it
in the boarding area I have I have no idea
where I put it. So like things like that would happen.
We would find the milk in the pantry and the
keys and wherever, and I'd get offended and really.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Pissed off, right so rightfully.
Speaker 5 (41:41):
So I learned that the adhders like things aren't stored
in your working memory the same they are in mine.
So he walks in the door and one shoe goes
here he sees food because he wants food now, and
that's the priority.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
The other shoe goes I don't know the key in
the pantry.
Speaker 5 (42:02):
The keys get left in the refrigerator because he's taking
like the rotisserie chicken out to like eat it. And
one time I walk downstairs and there was like a
rotisserie chicken carcass on the counter and his pants were
on the ground, and I'm like, I'm just trying to,
like CSI recreate what happened last night, and he's like,
I'm done with my pants, I'll take them off and
leave them here. But none of that entered his working memory,
(42:25):
so he has no memory of leaving the keys in
the fridge, like it doesn't exist in his memory because
so he can remember all these really big hard things,
but not where he put his keys.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
See, when I learned that there.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
Was actual science to back that up, I could offer grace,
and so I deal with some anxiety and OZD. So
he offers me grace around that. But when it comes
to him not being able to find his inhaler for
the day, like it's an explanation, not an excuse, I
don't like run and jump in and act as his
(42:59):
executive funk all the time, but I could offer grace
around the situation because I just understand it more.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
It's like I think people can who can make space
for each other in that way probably really level up
as a duo. Like you start to do that thing
where the unit is greater than the sum of its parts.
And I find that to be really inspiring. And it
also makes me think, like I actually think maybe this
(43:27):
is just because I've been rewatching the West Wing. I'm like, God,
people with ADHD would probably make such great like presidents
because they could be in charge of all the big
thoughts and then they'd have like all the chiefs of
staff like handing them the things they'd leave behind them otherwise.
I'm just like, I'm like, maybe Martin Sheen.
Speaker 4 (43:45):
Had ADHD, didn't have ADHD.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
She has to write and like, yeah, he's he's so freaky,
like freakishly smart that he must That's what it is.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
That's obviously what it is.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Let's diagnose them.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
It's yeah, okay, great, And now a word from our
sponsors who make this show possible. I find it really
fascinating too, because like, y'all have to figure out how
to navigate this stuff together. And I love that you
(44:23):
frame it as being awesome, as being kind of a superpower,
because I actually think it is, you know, and when
we realize that for us as adults we're figuring this out.
I also know thanks to you guys, that you know,
more than one in ten children in the US are
being diagnosed with ADHD, and I know your son has ADHD.
(44:47):
So I'm really curious what the experience is like for
you guys as a family to help him hack this
stuff earlier, to maybe not have to do a round
two as like a husband, to figure out in your
adult life how to manage it, but to grow up
with tools and because you're helping him grow up with
(45:10):
the tools that you perhaps didn't have. How it makes
you look at like the school system and what he
needs not just in your house but outside of your house.
Speaker 4 (45:20):
Well, starting just with him. I think it's really weird.
Very early on, when I suspected that he had ADHD,
I fell into a trap. I don't know, like maybe
I need to go see a therapist about this of
being like not wanting him to do what it was
that I did, because this was before I went down
this journey five years ago, like, oh, he may have
(45:42):
this brain like, dude, stop chewing on your shirt. It's
like it because I have this thing where I would
chew on it was apparently an ADHD esque thing because
of your fidgetiness. When I'm concentrating, concentrating, I chew on
my shirt and get like.
Speaker 6 (45:55):
A huge when he was a yes, and I'd never
seen cheek yeah okay yeah, And so I see my
son doing it, I'm like, dude, I stop.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
And then you know, I realized many years later that
that's not that's not a bad things. It's our way
of releasing some nervous energy. It's also a way to
stave off distraction and stay focused on something, and so
all of these things, like you know, he still did
it after I learned this, all of these things that
(46:26):
I learned as a parent about like the right way
not to punish someone for the way that their brain is.
That'll help out a little bit. We've been very open
in all of this book studying, and we've written a
book that we think is readable by a fourteen year
old kid, maybe even a ten year old kid. We
(46:46):
have eight year old who reading the book because we
put a bunch of color and a lot of graphics
and a lot of brain breaks into it. Having said that,
I know that there's going to be some times that
he struggles, and I know he's going to be guilty
of being his own worst critic, like you said not
too long ago. So those are the things really trying
to keep in check, right.
Speaker 5 (47:07):
I will say that when we were in the office
and got his official diagnosis, we were already doing the
research for this book. So I'm already thinking, yeah, ADHD
has many downsides. It can totally suck. But I was like, no,
it's awesome. We're gonna we're gonna reframe this. But I
got the diagnosis and it came to us as if
it was like this really hard medical diagnosis and we
(47:28):
left the office kind of bummed out and sad, and
like when you're thinking, oh my gosh, my son's life
is going to be hard, like what is going to
be This is going to be a struggle for him.
And we really had actively as a family re train
and reframe our brains even though we were already living
it and already already doing that work. But this shame spiral,
(47:50):
I like, my heart breaks when he starts to feel
that shame. So like, yeah, something that was taught to
me and we learned is to offer connection instead of correction.
So he's a brilliant kid. He would do his homework
but not turn it in yep, And I would get
(48:11):
pissed off and I'd be like why you know, and
I'd snap and he off, Like the shame spire would start.
Now it's hey, that must be really frustrating to have
done all that work and now you're not going to
get credit.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
What do you think we can do?
Speaker 5 (48:26):
Like, I've offered connection and our relationship has totally softened
because he feels safe with me to be like mom,
can you believe it? He'll call me from school like, Mom,
I forgot my lunch again today. I'm like, I got
you buddy, Like he feels safe to talk to me
about these missteps.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah, instead of trying to hide them.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Instead of trying to hide them. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
And there's two ways the spiral can go right, like
the downward spiral. You mess up, your parent or your
loved one gets mad at you. You get ashamed. You
mess up again, you're already feeling bad about yourself, you know,
get more ashamed and more ashamed than it's all downhill
if you. If you mess up and someone gives you
grace and gives you encouragement, then you're much more likely
(49:10):
to work hard to keep it from happening again and
things start improving. Yeah, and that's a way better spiral.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Absolutely, And by the way, that's true for everyone, no
matter how you're wired.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
But the idea that you could offer someone, hey, that's okay,
what if we did this instead of what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Yeah, Like, nobody.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Likes likes option B, but we don't. We certainly don't
handle it well because we internalize it. And that's another thing,
Like I just sort of always assumed everybody felt this way,
and I think it certainly made me resilient because I
was like, well, better get on with it, Like I've
got shit to do.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
You know, I'm gonna go make.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
A TV show, in a movie and a thing, you
know whatever. Like I've done so many things that I'm
so proud of.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
And like, oh, maybe I didn't need to white knuckle
through all of.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
That so hard. Like I probably could have done just
as much cool shit without feeling like I was on
the receiving end of a like a fire.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Hose most of the time.
Speaker 4 (50:17):
But you still have so much more of your life
to enjoy without the well.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
And that's it, and that's absolutely it, and that's why
I think, like, you know, the book is so exciting.
I think it's so cool that not only you know,
did you guys as a family unit choose this as
an undertaking, but you know, you did what you do
with so much of your work and your profile and
your platform in general, which is welcome us into it
(50:42):
and like offer things to others. I find it to
be so incredibly generous. So bless bless our Saint of
Katie Kirk for bringing us together here on.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
This podcast today.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
I would love to ask you my favorite question to
ask everybody, which is whether it's personal, professional, big small.
From where you sit today, what feels like your work
in progress?
Speaker 4 (51:09):
You go listening, I want to be a better listener.
I have this brain. It is a wonderful brain. It
is constant. So my brain is the neurotypical brain is
like a VIP party with like a bouncer and one
of those velvet ropes, and it knows how to keep
out things, let in certain things at certain times. My
(51:32):
brain is Coachella. It's an open air party. You can
feel the wind and the rain lightening, and everyone's invited
and it is a wonderful place to be. So really,
most of my time when I'm awake, I am bouncing
from fascinating possibility to fascinating possibility. Ding ding ding. Yeah.
I think about space and asteroid mining in the universe
(51:53):
at least six times a day, and it's my favorite
times in the day. Sometimes it happens when someone's trying
to tell me something really important. Yeah, and I and
so I know that I have to work on it.
And I also know that all of these wonderful things
that I'm thinking of are great and they're the reason
for creativity in my job, but I could really enrich
my life if I knew more about the people around me.
(52:15):
So I should just like, it's not that I'm talking.
I should shut my brain up every once in a
while and really work hard at trying to listen more
and learn more, because is really the best part of
the world are the other people that are in it,
not asteroids.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
That's cool, but.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
You really did circle babe five five.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
You're in the state of flight and you landed the plane.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
It's you know, people with ADHD, they can be like
about to land. Yeah, they just.
Speaker 5 (52:50):
My work in progress so much. I mean, I've found
a new therapists, so there's a lot of what I'm
working on. But my assignment from my new therapist is
I'm going to not I have this habit of I
say it's fine, it's fine, everything's fine when it's not fine.
So I'm trying to label and name emotions. I'm feeling like,
I'm happy and excited, grateful to meet you and other Yeah,
(53:14):
I'm trying to name that.
Speaker 3 (53:15):
So that's what I'm working on.
Speaker 4 (53:17):
I love that sures.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Oh gosh, you know, it's interesting that you say the
thing about listening, because listening is one of my favorite
things to do, and I think because of my job,
like I find artistry in really being present and having
an emotional reaction to the unexpected thing I hear. I
don't struggle so much with like a random topic distraction
(53:44):
though I literally have like a symbol from the Golden
Record tattooed on my arms. So if you want to
talk about space obsessions, we're going to.
Speaker 4 (53:51):
Have a follow up, let's say we'll go off one.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
But but what I have is hard time with which
now I understand to be like part of this sort
of neuro wiring is if you say something and I
have something to share, which that for me, fosters connection.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
I don't want to interrupt.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
But I really, really really want to tell you the
thing that you made me think of because of your
great story, because to me, that's like real connection.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
But you're not done.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
Talking, and so to be able to take a deep
breath and wait and be okay with risking that by
the time you finish your story, I'm probably not going
to remember this thing. I'm so excited to tell you
because you'll have made me think of something else, Like
that's really okay. What I'm excited to tell you, it
can be a blip or it can be a thing
(54:42):
that gets said, And like, honestly, either outcome is probably
not going to change your life, and it's probably not
going to change mine either. Like it's all right. And
I have had to learn that my love of connecting
with people does not need to supersede the normal cadence
of conversation. Because when I do that, and when I
(55:05):
get into like a very neurospicy like yeah, yeah, and
do you know or I heard this thing or I
read this article in the Atlanta last week and you're
really gonna like it, people are like, what.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
The fuck is wrong with her? You know?
Speaker 1 (55:18):
And and it's I just have to like take a breath,
and it's all good. We're already here, we're already talking.
I don't have to prove anything. We're fine.
Speaker 4 (55:30):
Well, without even meaning to, You've really helped me out
there by explaining that because I'm guilty of the same thing.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
For sure.
Speaker 5 (55:36):
He heard whatever space tattoo and he's like, oh my gosh,
I have to tell her about Yeah, he.
Speaker 4 (55:41):
Read Kim knows what I'm about to do it at
dinner and she just jams.
Speaker 3 (55:44):
It's just.
Speaker 5 (55:46):
A couple because I find interrupting people incredibly.
Speaker 3 (55:49):
I just find it.
Speaker 5 (55:50):
In some cases, sometimes it's a fun continuation, like kind
of kinetic energy. I love that too. But sometimes I'm like,
we're just we're just meeting these people.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
Yeah, just wait, Yeah, that's It's like I've trained enough
puppies through the course of my life to know that
when you say something and I want to tell you why,
I know something about that, or basically say, oh my gosh,
me too, Like that's like the excited puppy. That's like
sitting there begging for a treat, and it's like you
(56:21):
just have to wait your turn, small end, and like
being able to kind of for me at least a
sign a metaphorical identity to my puppy response and also
to my like rebellious, sassy thirteen year old that the
minute it hits ten thirty one pm, and I was
ready for bed at ten twenty six, but ten thirty
(56:43):
is my teenage witching hour, and I'm like, nobody can make.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Me go to bed.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
I'm going to watch a whole show till five o'clock
in the morning. Like I can't let her drive the car.
She needs to be put to sleep.
Speaker 3 (56:54):
She needs go to bed, like.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
I have to put I me adult Sophia has to
you forcibly put thirteen year old me to bed every
single night, every night.
Speaker 4 (57:07):
Yeah, I mean by my my trainer Kim has to
shock Coller me under the table talking that puppy metaphor
was actually hit for you.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Yeah yeah, And like if you think of it, if
you think of that thing in you as like a
sweet little puppy, it's adorable and you can have, like
at least for me.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
I won't generalize. I can have. I can have.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Empathy for it. And I think being in healthy partnership
does it too. Like the number of times a day
my partner will grab me by the face and be
like you sweet little adhd baby, like I love how
quirky you are, and just kiss me. And I'm like, okay,
I know I'm so weird. And she's like, you're my
favorite kind of weird. I'm like, okay, all right, all right,
(57:48):
well look at that, like there really is a shoe
for every foot, and like you need your yours to
like jab you under the table to calm you down,
and that's okay, that's love.
Speaker 5 (57:59):
Actually, him, my human gold and retriever though, because he
is very excitable and he'll probably lick you. No, I'm kidding,
but he will, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
Energetically.
Speaker 4 (58:09):
And metaphorically, not right on the face. Yeah, like this
is we're coming to a really weird landing. It's the
kind of landing I like to get back.
Speaker 5 (58:20):
I like the world would be without these spicy brains.
Speaker 3 (58:24):
I mean, yeah, you just did something for me.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
I didn't interrupt earlier when I really wanted to, and
I didn't because, first of all, I figured you'd read it,
but you reminded me how boring the world would be.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
When we were talking.
Speaker 1 (58:36):
About the stats around diagnosis, it made me think. I
think it was maybe last month. I don't know if
it was the New York Times or Popular Science or whatever,
but an article hit about how scientists now think that
ADHD was an evolutionary change, like a superpower for hunter
gatherers to survive, and.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
I was like, see, we are humans. I got very excited.
So you know, the world does need us, or maybe
we would all starve.
Speaker 5 (59:06):
We're probably here today because of some ADHD people who
are like, I see those berries, those look kind of weird.
Speaker 3 (59:12):
I'm not gonna eat those. I'm gonna go over here.
Speaker 5 (59:15):
Yeah yeah, so thanks guys.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
You know you're welcome. Guys, thank you so much for
joining me today. This has been so much fun. Next
time I'm in North Carolina, we all got to get
a meal.
Speaker 3 (59:29):
I would love that.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
I would love that
Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
Assass
Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Whip Smarties.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Today, we are joined by two guests that I just
I don't even know if I have the words to
describe how excited I am that they're here. I'm such
a fan of their work, their sketch comedy, They're award
winning videos. I mean me and you know eight million
other people who follow them across their social media platforms
and the two billion people who have watched said videos.
(00:38):
I'm not exactly new on the discovery here, but I
am long on the adoration. Today's guests are Kim and
pen Holderness. They have been married for eighteen years, and
over the past decade they have become incredible online content creators,
and now they are on a mission as a duo
and as parents to reboot how we think about ADHD.
(01:01):
They are bringing their trademark uplifting humor, which you probably
saw on The Amazing Race here on their podcasts, have
read in any of their best sellers, or you know,
listen to on their videos. They're bringing that humor and
their personal insights plus five years of research, which you
know makes my brain feel excited to share their experience
(01:24):
with a condition that affects millions of people around the world,
attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Penn was in college when he
was diagnosed, and although the signs of having a brain
that worked differently had been there since he was a kid,
he still had to go on quite a journey to
figure out as an adult what coping with his neurospicy
(01:45):
brain looked like. And as he researched how to do that,
he realized he wanted to write a book. So they
wrote this book together. They are sharing it with fellow
adhdars and the people who care about them. As you know,
one of the estimated ten million people in America with
a neurospicy brain.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I am so excited that they are here and so
excited to ask all of the questions. Let's get to it. Well, Hi, guys, welcome,
Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Today, Thanks for having us for excited.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, gosh, I mean, you guys have obviously so much history.
You've been married for nineteen years, and as you say,
you have a news background, you have this whole incredible
life you've created, and the things that you make and
the content that you produce. I want to like, I
want to go back before we catch up to where
(02:48):
we are today.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
How did you two first meet.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
In a bar?
Speaker 3 (02:52):
In a bar in North Carolina at Florida? We were Alada.
Speaker 5 (02:57):
Yeah, so we were reporters opposite stations in Orlando, Florida.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Oh the competition.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Competition, and everyone says that were just so funny, but
like we were the only people awake. Yeah, Tuesday night
and it's twelve o'clock and you know, it's midnight and
we finally get off work. So thank god there were
other stations so we could like talk to other people.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Yeah, yeah, this business is actually very incestuous. So yeah,
I met him at a bar. Then, you know, a
few months later I saw him. We kind of connected,
and then I saw him during the worm on stage
and I was like, this man is mine, Like that
said it's done. Yeah, that's that's him. Yeah, So that
was it, and then we got we were engaged and married,
(03:42):
Like we were engaged within nine months and then married
nine months later.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
So yeah, incredible.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
When y'all were growing up, did you envision being public figures? Like,
can you sort of see a through line from your
childhood dreams to what you do now? Or has everything
just taking five left turns and you can't sort of
believe this is where we find ourselves today.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
I mean, you do have that poster I did stand
out in front of The Today Show when I was
in high school that said like future NBC News anchor,
and Katie Kirk signed it when she was on.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
The Today Show.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Oh my god.
Speaker 6 (04:17):
You know.
Speaker 5 (04:17):
I grew up in a small town in Florida, and
I always wanted to be a writer, and I didn't
know and I loved comedy, but I just didn't really
see a path as a writer besides a newspaper writer
or some sort of like television reporter. So I just
didn't see a path any other path. And I always yeah,
(04:38):
and I always kind of pictured myself behind the scenes
on things. So this is weird and a thousand left turns.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
I wanted to be a musician for a long time,
but I didn't really have the patience to learn a
lot of the inside the music. But I felt like
I had like a creative side to it. I played
in I was part of a lot of music theater
growing up in high school, and so that got me
into doing a cappella and in a band in college.
(05:07):
And I was like, oh, maybe I should be in
a band, and my parents were like, what are you
talking about, No, you can't be in a band. Go
find a real job. And so the closest I could
find to a real job that didn't bore me to
death was working for a local TV station, which had
no real, real musical element to it. But I did.
I did that for almost two decades before we started
(05:30):
this next just bizarre left turn into the internet, where
you can really do whatever you want.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So how did that happen?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
How do you go from working in the news to
having this digital career?
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Yeah, so we question, Yeah, all right, so we I
didn't see my kids. I just could. The way that
local news works, you either work from three to twelve,
like three am to twelve noon, or you work from
three pm to midnight. And when your kids are younger
than not really going to school, and they're just like
balls of you know, skin rolling around everywhere, it's like, well,
(06:05):
like I can see them whenever. It's fine, I'll like
see them for a long time. But then when they
start going off to school, you really don't see them.
And so Kim had started a career where she was
doing video production for other entities.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Like shooting videos.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Yeah, and well, and because I'd been in sports and
in journalism for almost twenty years, I had some experience
shooting and editing. And she was like, look, maybe we
could just make this work. Like I was a news
anchor at the time, but like instead of being a
news anchor, you know, I know you know how to
shoot and edit, Like you could be my shooter and
(06:42):
my editor. I offer you zero benefits, a share of
what we make with no salary. What do you think
And I was like, great, let's do it.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
And so to set the scene there, we had two
months in savings, we had two young kids. We were
giving up like benefits and a good job, but I
was so it was just like a miserable existence. And
so that Christmas, so the first video we did.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Our kids were six.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Or and six, and they weren't really sitting still for
Christmas card picture. So we decided to make a Christmas
video and we would send it around and hopefully like
my mom would share it, and then like his aunt
would see it, and then maybe local companies would hire
us to do their video production. And we he wrote
a parody song and it was like in my Christmas
(07:33):
Jammis and it went like crazy viral and it was
on all the news shows and all that stuff. So
that video, actually that changed our lives because after that,
it still took us several years to figure out how
we're doing what we're doing now, But that we got
like ten thousand emails for people who wanted to hire
us for our company.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Well, we put our email on the video, like, hey,
we want to if you want to work for us
in a while we're dancing work with Doma's car, hire us.
Here's our here's our email address. And then so we're
so stupid we thought like maybe our you know, parents,
We put our home address on it, our driver's license,
you know, was our car license plate was on there.
(08:12):
So like a lot of our personal information was on
this video. They got somewhat million people, and so that
sucked when we had to figure out how to Yeah,
we learned some lessons, but it also.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Learned some lessons and probably moved.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Yeah we moved, but but it it did allow us
to start like a new direction of just being creative
on the internet. However, we wanted that's not cool, not
being beholden to eleven pm deadlines.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's also so interesting to me. Two
things that really stand out that you've said knowing about
the new book is then you said that you never
had the patients are in the instruments. I'm like, oh,
the graveyard have failed hobbies, were never executed? Hobbies that
exists all over my home, the stacks of books, oh dear.
(09:04):
And then you also said it's taking you a it
took you a couple of years from that video to
sort of figure out what your thing was. And for
folks with ADHD, like not knowing what it is immediately
or not being really good at it right away can
be the reason that we quit things. So I'm fascinated
(09:25):
that you were able to take some time.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Did that feel like.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Did that time feel like an exciting journey, almost like
being at a TV station and learning something in real time?
Or was it torture for you? And she kept you
on track? Like how did that work?
Speaker 4 (09:45):
Yeah, it's so interesting. So I think that I really
never found the way to see the world from thirty
thousand feet above, you know, like a good project manager
would do. I just kept doing, like, oh wait, I
did something that worked, squirrel, what's the next thing that
I'm going to find and do like I'm just repeat, repeat,
(10:06):
I'm gonna do this again. And in some ways that worked.
It helped build our audience up, but we didn't do
it with a ton of consistency, and we were still
doing all the things we promised people on that video
that we would do, which is like make videos for
the dentist office down the street, but.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
We made videos like we weren't in them, but we
were like behind the scene producing commercials for like companies
and brands.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
But we had the most fun when we just put
everything down and we figured it, this is just going
to be like a free thing that we're not going
to make any money on because we didn't know how
to monetize videos like hey, let's do something about let's
do another parody. And those parodies kept doing well and
they kept you know, making national news and they kept
building up our audience. So for me, really what it
was was not taking a minute to stop and say
(10:54):
where are we going with this? The question of death
right exactly.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:00):
I would ask him like where do you see yourself
in five years? Where do you think this is going?
And he's like, oh, Vicky, like I don't want to
answer that I don't know. Yeah, so I think it's
the fact that he didn't allow himself to zoom out.
And I didn't know. I mean, who knew ten years
ago that the internet would look like it does today?
So like I didn't have I wasn't smart enough to
(11:22):
know what sort of platforms would exist.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
We'll be back in just a minute after a few
words from our favorite sponsors.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And how did you guys.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Now when you kind of look at what you've built,
how do you determine.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Where your boundaries go?
Speaker 1 (11:44):
Because, like you said, that first video went in all
these places you didn't think it would.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
People figured out where you lived. You literally had to move.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
What what is the kind of filter that you pass
opportunities through or or that you make decisions on what
to share, what not to share? How much of your
life you know, especially because it's like to your real life,
it's your personal life, it's your marriage, it's your family.
(12:13):
You you love this stuff, but also it's a weird
world out there. How do you make sense of that tornado?
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Well, we quickly set boundaries around our children. We were
aware that when this video went out and our kids
were on it that we didn't give them a choice
whether or not they wanted to be in a twenty
million via video because we didn't know it was going
to have that many. So that was the start. You
see a lot less of them as if you look
through the ten years we've been doing this as time
goes on. For a long time, it's been they have
(12:40):
to either well they have to want to be on it. Uh,
And a lot of times that's always been yeah, that's
I mean, yeah, that's always been the case. In addition,
like if they asked to be on it, a lot
of times we'll say this isn't really appropriate, like this
isn't this is too much exposure. But a lot of
times are these brand deals that come to us and
they're those are, to my in my opinion, like a
(13:01):
little more harmless. And those videos they get paid and
so they have they have a really nice college fund
now because they've been is part of their living. And
my kids spoiler alert kids really like money money.
Speaker 5 (13:15):
So I will see they get a paycheck from us,
and they always have. So like that first video, once
we finally realized how to turn on monetization, like they
have Coogan accounts, you know, what I mean, like they
have so I'm sure we've screwed our kids up. Oh yeah,
hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Everywhere everybody does. That's not that's.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Yeah, it's but I will say they're gonna have bank,
they're gonna be able to pay for therapy. So they
are I joke, they're coin operated because when they get
low on cash because they're now fourteen and seventeen, they're like, oh,
they're pitching videos to us because they know they have
a baseline of money they make just because they are
in existing videos. But they're like, hey, mom, what if
(13:55):
we did because they just want to make some more money.
So it's but the other boundaries, it's a really good
question because we had none and didn't know how to
really do that in the beginning because I don't think
we were. We weren't thinking big picture enough. We weren't
thinking about any of this, And I have regrets around that.
(14:16):
I have regrets around how much my kids were in
videos and all of that. We've deleted some, we've hid some,
but now like we don't we very rarely show our
bedroom we're using like a guest bedroom. We're very there's
like spaces in our houses that are in our house
that are private that you'll never see, but again, it
(14:37):
is our house, so it is super weird. We close
the laptops around like five o'clock and that's it, and
it's like no work talk. We try to really limit
that discussion in our marriage, Like we went to marriage
counseling and that was one of the things like we
needed to shut like it is like product is our
(14:58):
life and it's very authentically us, but that can't be
driving what our conversation is on a date night. So
definitely work in progress and we had a lot of
work to do on that.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I think that's really beautiful though, because at the end
of the day, there's no guidebook for this. And when
you talk about like, oh we regret fill in the
blank from early days, like I feel that in my bones.
And something I've also learned as an adult diagnosed with
ADHD PEN.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Is that like the justice complex.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
That can come with being a little neurospicy, I love
that about myself, Like that that makes me an activist,
It makes me a good journalist.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
It does all these things.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
But that obsession with truth when I was like when
I'd been twenty one for nine days and then I
got on a TV show, and I went from like
co sharing a philanthropic thing at my college to like
being on television.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I had no idea what I was doing.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
I didn't know I didn't have to answer everybody's question
ends and interviews. I didn't know that I shouldn't just
be open about my personal life, Like I didn't understand
the business of any of it, and that the obsession
that that created that I sort of got like used
as product for for an early aughts TV show, like
(16:22):
as an adult person who has done all of the
wonderful things.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
I've done and like you know, built schools.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
And interviewed vice presidents and like just the things that
I'm so proud of, Like the the personal life obsession
chases me because it makes money for tabloids and I'm like,
there is so much more interesting shit that I do.
But like, okay, so when you talk about that, like, oh,
(16:49):
we regret this and we try to shift it, Like
I have the same thing. I regret that there was
no crash course to teach me what I didn't know,
because I have to kind of retroactively trying to go
back shift, refuse to answer questions like redirect conversations that
I'm like, man, if anybody taught any of us who
(17:10):
were getting into the world of media that loves to
feed on our personal lives, like if anybody gave us
like a ten page guidebook, it would have been great.
Speaker 5 (17:20):
But don't you think like early Oughts, especially that is
when like the Perez Hiltons of the world were coming up,
like you didn't know it yet, there was no guidebook.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
It was bad because that we.
Speaker 5 (17:33):
Didn't we didn't know as consumers that that, Oh, that's
really inappropriate for us to see this and know this
about this person. I think it's maybe it's better now,
I mean, I but like I know, I know with
kids are better, but there's some things that it's just Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
So you started that conversation by talking about this sort
of like inner voice, this InterVoice of justice that you have.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Yeah. Do you have that too?
Speaker 4 (17:59):
Yeah? Yeah, but I want to know for you like
that when I have it, I it conflicts with the
part of my ADHD that I think I've learned to
control but not completely. And that's like the emotional flooding
when I get really really upset about something where I
get like fixed by something emotionally, what was it like
for you when you were twenty one?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (18:19):
What was the emotional slud? Like?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
It was so hard and and you know, being for us.
I talk about this a lot with my best friend
from my first job. You know, she had a little
more experience because she'd been hired in college as a
VJ on MTV. She was going to school in New York,
and so.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
She kind of got to know the music scene. So
she came into our show with like a little bit
of knowledge. I was like, bitch, I came onto.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Our show three years after I graduated from an all
girls school with fifty five girls in my graduating class, Like,
I didn't know anything about anything, and it you know,
it's interesting for us because the thing we had in
common was that we were you're expected to be so professional,
(19:05):
like you're the lead on a television show, and so
I kind of just followed a lot of what she did.
I was like, that's a mark.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I stand on the thing with a tape on the
floor shaped like a tea, Like, all right, which color
is my mark?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (19:19):
You know you there was this sense of like I
can't let anyone know I'm just a kid, because I'm
twenty one, damn it, and I'm an adult, and so
there was a lot that we didn't even know to
ask for help on. And I think the folks who
realized they could make you know, so much money on
naive kids loved that they could be like, well, this
(19:43):
is how it goes, and we'd be like, okay, it
wasn't really we had no idea. It wasn't really until
later jobs where we were like, oh wait, this set,
this functions very differently than where I come from. This
feels like professional. What do you mean the writers want
to meet with me to talk to me about my
story arc. You're not just going to like hand me
a script on a Tuesday and tell me to start
(20:03):
acting it on a Wednesday. Really, like, there were all
these things that we just didn't know, And so I
think that's that for me. Is what comes up when
I think about your question, Like the emotional flooding, I
think I could excuse with oh, well, of course, I'm
(20:24):
really overwhelmed. This is really overwhelming. I just went from
taking college classes to filming eighteen hours a day on
a TV show, Like, of course, I'm really overwhelmed. I
moved away from my parents and every single person I know,
and I barely have time to talk to anyone who
knows me. Of course, I'm overwhelmed.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Like I didn't.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I didn't get the difference because there were so many
things that I think could excuse the big feelings. Yeah,
and when you go to work, you get trained, like
to perform well, to be a good soldier, to like
always be cheery and whatever. So especially for me understanding
how that these versions of neurospiciness present differently in women
(21:07):
and often are easier for women to mask because we've
been raised being told to mask our emotions, our whole lives,
to be good girls. I was like, oh, man, we
really like us ADHD girls get really set up to fail.
And then I was sort of it really blew my
mind in a good way as an adult, to go, Oh,
(21:28):
the things that I feel so much shame about in
my life are actually not indicators of my willpower, my strength,
my intelligence, any of it. It's hard for me to
see time as linear. I see it as a vertical stack,
and it's very overwhelming to me. Oh, okay, that's why
(21:49):
to do lists can feel hard to tackle. I don't
know what's the most important thing I have to talk
through it and reorganize my to do lists into chunks,
and like some of my friends just don't have to
do that.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
But it took me a long.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Time to learn that I wasn't too sensitive or biting
off more than I could chew, or too smart for
my own good. Because I am a language person. I
do like when you said, I don't like to zoom out.
Where I zoom out is on like politics, policy, society, justice, activism.
So I can zoom out and stay in my like
(22:24):
nerdy little data land all day because then I don't
have to really feel my feelings either. Oh so the
whole Like, now that I see it all, it's kind
of like someone gave a kid who who can't see
a pair of glasses.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I was like, oh my god, is this what leaves
look like on trees?
Speaker 4 (22:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:45):
I just thought it was like a green blob. Like
now that I get it, I get it.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yeah, I've felt that way since working on this book.
Just like that learning about how my brain works. Right,
because most people you explained to women, you know, they
are trained to and are very good at internalizing their difficulties.
They go undiagnosed three times more than men minorities same,
a very similar situation. So of course it's like the
(23:13):
loud you know, white kids running around that getting all
the medicine. I ended up being like more inattentive than hyperactive,
So I wasn't diagnosed until I was much older either.
But when I learned, Okay, the reason why I am
unable to make it through a task is because my
brain is it has a bunch of on and off switches.
(23:35):
They're not dimmers like on a light mixing board that
you can bring up like twenty percent of each one
of them in a perfect composition of all these eight
lights or things going on. I've got a bunch of
on off switches and when I turned one of them on,
the rest of them turn off. Yeah, and I got
to go find them. They've left my working memory and
just like living for forty five years because even when
(23:57):
I got diagnosed, no one explained this to me. They
just handed me some Dexadron, which, by the way, is like, no,
it's like meth They speed God like, that's what they
gave them. A little is not good for you.
Speaker 6 (24:10):
Well, it got me through college and then I took
myself office.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Yeah, I took myself off of it after a little while,
but I never really understood it. So I interview a
gajillion psychologist for this book. They explain that part of
my brain and it's just like you talking about putting
on glasses. Holy crap, that's how this works. Okay, Now,
what like, how can I get to work to keep
(24:36):
the systems in check so that the other part of
our brains sofia, which are wildly spontaneous and creative, and
the reason you've been so successful not only in your
former acting career but in your ability to express yourself
in this new career. Those things come out now that
you're able to keep the other systems in check and
also keep your emotional flooding in check.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
M h, Well, it's even a thing for me, like
learning the I am so motivated by so many things,
Like I've had to visualize my career into a couple
of buckets, and then I try to apply my creative
skills to them instead of feel like I'm just not
(25:15):
quite capable of doing any one thing. It's like, no,
my superpower is actually that I can focus on a
bunch of different things and be additive to all of them.
So I have my day job, I have my film
and television career, and now that I'm also producing things
that I act in, Oh my God, like music to
a ADHD person's ears. And then I've got this political
(25:38):
bucket of you know, causes big and small that I
love to work on. That's really what led me into
the financial activism for women and working with the first
Women's Bank and running this fund with my best friend,
Like I have figured out how to when those switches
turn on, build system around them that help keep me going,
(26:02):
because if I try to do it all alone, like
people whose brains are wired like us, we are not
lone wolves.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
We are not. That's not for me. I need my humans.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
So it's like I produce TV with two of my
best friends now, and I do this financial work with
my best friend whose son is my godson and like
the literal light of my life. And I have my
team that I do political work with. And when I
work in cohort with my humans, it's it's like my
brain is being stimulated really well all the time. But
(26:36):
having folks who see time in a linear fashion as
opposed to a vertical fashion like me, means they can say, like,
don't get overwhelmed. This is the next task, And I'm like, great,
if you just tell me what it is, I can
go do it. But if you ask me to pick,
it's like it's like putting a person without a driver's
license in one of those Parisian roundabouts, Like.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Good luck, there's nine roads in.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
A certain How in God's name do you expect me
to know how to navigate this? Like I realize other
people have intersections and I have roundabouts, and that's okay.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
I've never heard someone say they the vertical? Is that
how you see time?
Speaker 4 (27:15):
I definitely don't see it linear.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
I call it time blindness.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yea, but that, oh big time.
Speaker 5 (27:20):
He doesn't And your list, your to do list? He
put forty seven things on a to do list. I'm like,
the laws of space and time still apply to you,
Like you cannot get to all of these things, like
he he is blind, love you, babe to the amount
of time things will actually take.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
But I've never heard somebody say vertical.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
And that's such like a cool way to like talk
about the differences, like of course it's a straight line
in front of you, but no, it's not at all
for you.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, and time blindness is so real.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Like this is going to sound wild, but I have
actually so that my brain can understand. Like, if you
look at my calendar, it's horrible to look at there's
too much going on. But because of that, like if
I see a blank space in the calendar, I'm gonna
fill it.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
So I have had to even start.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Like when I do a day like today and I
block podcasts, I will put an eight minute break in
between the two interviews in my Google calendar. And people
are like, why are you doing that? Because if I don't,
I won't pee and I won't eat.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, Like, I have to do that.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
If I have a meeting and it's not on Zoom,
I put the drive time before and after the meeting
in my calendar because if I don't, I will think
I can do something during that time and that's not
physically possible because I can't teleport.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
Yeah, you need to probably the drive. That is a
good strategy. You need to put drive time in your calendar.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
It really helps.
Speaker 5 (28:52):
Yeah, because hell, the meeting will be at two and
again we live in Rawleigh and we don't live in
LA but it'll be one fifty seven and he'll be like,
I got it.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
You do not got it.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
You don't got it.
Speaker 5 (29:02):
You do not gotimes sometimes at it, but I do
know the times you do not got it.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Yeah, And what I did, like I don't know if
you love to color code things, Penn, I do like
I have one color in my calendar, like in the
drop down of you know, twelve colors you can pick.
That's just for real time, so like driving a food break, so.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
I know, I'm like, no, no, no, that is real.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Like if it says on my phone it's going to
take me twenty seven minutes to drive to a meeting.
I put thirty five minutes in the calendar just in case,
and it's just in there, and I know that it's
like a way I can push back against my inner adolescent.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
That's like I could beat that.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
And I'm like, no, because my inner thirteen year old
is combative and I'm forty one and I need to
be responsible.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
So I want to talk to you about that because
that that's been one of the biggest breakthroughs for me
over the last couple of years. And I think that
a lot of adh people struggle with this, and if
they're listening, obviously accepting the fact that easy stuff is
going to be hard for us. That inner thirteen year
old is always combative, right, and sometimes that lasts all
(30:14):
the way until you take your dying breath. Just like
I'm not going to make a calendar. I'm not going
to make a checklist, mom, I'm not going to make
a list of brush my teeth at the end of
this is for say, like a ten year old kid,
but I do. It makes it easier for me to
accept that the easy stuff is hard for me when
I remember that our type of brain, a lot of
(30:35):
times the hard stuff is easy for us. So exactly
the other way.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
We'll be back in just a minute. But here's a
word from our sponsors. Well, and that's the thing is,
I've had to realize that it's a ratio game and
everybody has it. And in the way that I can
remember data political fact, explain to you how an injustice
(31:01):
here is tied to an injustice here, and it all
traces back to the nineteen sixties. Because of this, and
did you know what happened with women in Iceland in
nineteen ninety four when they did the walk out of work?
And people are like you are like a freaky genius.
I'm like, sure, that's my superpower. But I will forget
to drink water if I carry this. I literally brought
(31:23):
props for today.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I'm friends at home.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
This is a big, solid metal water bottle that I'm
showing my lovely guests. If I carry this around, this
has been full for two days. I won't drink it
because I can't see it. I don't know how much
water is in there, and it might as well be
that could be.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
It could be a lamp. Yes, but Mason.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
From Home Goods changed my life because this is thirty
two ounces of water and I've had two of these
today because I can see it, and if I'm looking
at it and the water has been at the B
line for two hours, I know I'm not hydrated.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
This is why the magnets work so well.
Speaker 5 (32:07):
So he has a magnet he has on top of
his car well because he's a giant and he can
see the top of his car. But it doesn't actually
hold anything. But it's just a visual cueue of don't
put my coffee cup there, because we were losing coffee
cups on the daily because you know, you like just
you're caring.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
All set it down and then you forget yeah.
Speaker 5 (32:24):
And there's a there's a magnet on the dryer of
like take my he has to take his inhaler and
chaps to stick out before he's doing lunching like those
like visual cue, extreme solutions smart.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
So part of what really helped me crack that my
brain was wired a little differently because again I think,
especially for women, we we are so good at masking
that we often don't get diagnosed. And you know, and
I don't say this to be like ooh, amazing, like,
because one thing I've also learned about ADHD is the
(32:57):
intense shame spiral.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Like nobody's meaner to me than me, to be clear,
So anyone.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Who thinks what I'm about to say is like egotistical,
I'm like check that, check that at the door. But
the level of intellectual capacity that I have, my love
of language, eloquence and you know, memory for facts was
also People were like, you're way too smart to have
a learning disability. But I cannot remember those simple little things.
(33:26):
I don't know where the car keys go, I don't
know why I picked up my phone. I'll walk into
a room to do something and it's gone. And something
that actually helped me start to hack it years ago.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I read that book.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Atomic Habits, Yeah, James Clair, And when James Clear started
talking about habit stacking, I was like, oh, and the
visual queuing. If I fill up a mason jar with
water and I put it next to the sink on
my way to bed, like from the kitchen, I leave
it in the bathroom, I go to bed, then as
soon as I brush my teeth in the morning, I'll
(33:59):
drink a jar a water because drinking water is really
hard for me to remember. And that seems so silly,
but like it has health impacts.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah, no, yeah, like the easy stuff is hard.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
And so then it got to be really interesting. And
that was a clue for my doctor, who was like, oh,
the visual clues are a that's a key hole for
you to look through. And that was one of the
things that really helped lead us to a diagnosis for me,
because you know, they have to add up all the
things and see if it sticks. So how do you decide,
(34:34):
I mean decide or maybe Kim, you said you should
get checked out for this, Like how did it happen?
How did you start to figure it out?
Speaker 6 (34:41):
Well?
Speaker 4 (34:41):
I got diagnosed when I was in college, oh, you
said that.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (34:45):
But but it's like I can answer your question because
there were kind of two phases of my ADHD. Phase
one was college. I was on academic probation twice at
we'll name drop Katie Correct at Katie Couric School a
little bit younger, but like it just didn't work for me,
these big auditoriums where I wasn't in front of the class,
(35:06):
like you know, I'm always one of my biggest hacks
in high school was I sat front and center or
else I would space out. And it's possible in college.
And so I'm starting to think maybe there's something that
I need to I need to talk to a doctor.
And then my grandmother died. I was at her funeral
and the family was all sitting around talking about what
are we gonna do about our beach trip, you know,
our family beach trip. And I was getting sad and
(35:28):
thinking about that, and my aunt Zell goes pen, this
is a really emotional conversation. I can't concentrate because you're
chewing on a fly swatter right now. So I had
a used fly swatter in my mouth and I was
chewing on it. Wow, And so I'm like there's something
that needs to get checked out. So that was your habit,
your habit stacking mine was I was chewing on a
(35:48):
fly swatter when talking about a difficult subject in My
psychiatrist was like, that's emotional dysregulation, that's fixation. That's all
Like he's you've got ADHD. Congratulations, here's this medicine. This
will help you with emotional regulation, This will help you
with conversations, this will help you with everything. It did
all the things that he said it would do. I
(36:11):
took myself off of it after about a year because
I felt personally like the side of my brain, the
creative side, which really specialized in taking everything in and
not keeping it out, like letting it come into me,
was the reason that I was able to create musically.
(36:31):
So I took myself off. And all of that is
to say I took medicine. I took myself off of it.
I found a job in television where like micro deadlines
really help and they're good for an ADHD person. I
did nothing to put any systems in place. Right when
I first met Kim, I lived in a house that
had one towel, And you want to talk about the towel.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
Well no, it's like, well, you use it, you're clean
when you get out of the tower. It's like self cleaning.
Why would you need more than one towel. I think
that's less ADHD and more just poor hygiene.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
Okay, maybe no.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
I do think that his ability to kind of his
I think a lot of our success is tied to
the fact that he allows all of the and his
brain allows him just like you like all these ideas
on everything. Try telling him he can only do one thing,
but that's not going to happen.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
And and you have this.
Speaker 5 (37:26):
So Penn also has this crazy memory. He can if
he looks at something, he can remember it. And so
ADHD folks, they don't have a lack of attention. They
have an abundance of attention. It just has to be
something they care about. So for you it's your activism
and the politics and the history of it. And for
Penn it's like weird movie quotes and music.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
So it's a lot of it. So that was phase one.
Phase one was college, got through it, managed to somehow
marry a woman way above my way whatever, out kicked
my whatever it was. And then like really the second
phase was when we started a company together and I
(38:09):
was kids and my executive functioning redline. It really did,
like stuff started falling through the cracks. I was leaving
stoves on as I left to drop my kids off
at school, and like almost burning the house down. I
was forgetting he's leaving him in the cars, realizing that
like if you do that, someone could not only break
into your car, they could get into your house. Like
(38:31):
there were there were danger issues with my IDOHG because
I was getting overtaxed. And so that was like I
think our next step where you were asking if Kim
did something, I think when when we decided to write
this book. I think Kim knew that this was going
to be a form of therapy for me earn what
was going on in my brain, to understand it, and
(38:53):
that that would empower me to put those systems in
place that you just talked about, those sort of sorts
of a time habits that can help get the most
out of my brain. I just spoke for you.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
I'm sorry, yeah, do it. Man's plain away.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
That's not like man's plainning.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
No no, no, no, help me out.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
With man's planning. I get accused of man's planning.
Speaker 6 (39:13):
Sometimes I don't know it as a joke because you okay, good,
You're good.
Speaker 2 (39:18):
Well.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
One of the things I've learned too about the way
our brains work is that it often comes with a
desire to over explain, to make sure that other people
understand what's going on in our brains, where you're like, no, no,
I get it, Like I know I'm the odd man out,
but I'm also.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
In on it. So let me tell you this thing.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
And I feel so lucky that you know, some of
my best friends have been on this journey with me.
Every so often we'll look at me and go, I
must stop you there, I get it, I'm with you,
and I'm like, okay, I'm going to stop talking because
I'm just still talking. It's yeah, I'm like, I just
want to make sure we're on the same page, because
(39:57):
I know I'm always on another page and people are like, you're.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Fine, has calmed down, You're good.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
But I find it funny on that topic, like I
love watching the way you guys banter together and talk
about this, And also that you knew that this would
be good for both of you writing this book, because Kim,
You've said that so many of the things that you
were initially and are attracted to about Penn were because
(40:21):
of his ADHD. So like as a neurotypical partner of
a neurospicy human, like, what is what's your perspective? Like
what do you think those positive qualities are? And how
do you work around the fact that you're human is
wired differently than you?
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Great question.
Speaker 5 (40:41):
Yeah, I mean he's spontaneous and hilarious and he was
interested in so many things which made him interesting to me.
So like all of those things, sign me up. And yeah,
when there was like we had two kids and people
would joke, oh, it's like you have three kids, I'm like,
that isn't actually not funny, not at all. He's he's
a very good partner, I will say I in doing
(41:04):
the research, this took us five years, and doing the research,
I think the most impactful thing I learned was about
the adh deer's working memory. So I used to get
very deeply offended when you know, we went on vacation
one time and we were all kind of sitting all
over the plane. It was at carry on suitcase situation.
(41:24):
We get off the plane in Florida and he didn't
have a suitcase he's like, Babe, I just left it
in the boarding area I have I have no idea
where I put it. So like things like that would happen.
We would find the milk in the pantry and the
keys and wherever, and I'd get offended and really.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Pissed off, right so rightfully.
Speaker 5 (41:41):
So I learned that the adhders like things aren't stored
in your working memory the same they are in mine.
So he walks in the door and one shoe goes
here he sees food because he wants food now, and
that's the priority.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
The other shoe goes I don't know the key in
the pantry.
Speaker 5 (42:02):
The keys get left in the refrigerator because he's taking
like the rotisserie chicken out to like eat it. And
one time I walk downstairs and there was like a
rotisserie chicken carcass on the counter and his pants were
on the ground, and I'm like, I'm just trying to,
like CSI recreate what happened last night, and he's like,
I'm done with my pants, I'll take them off and
leave them here. But none of that entered his working memory,
(42:25):
so he has no memory of leaving the keys in
the fridge, like it doesn't exist in his memory because
so he can remember all these really big hard things,
but not where he put his keys.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
See, when I learned that there.
Speaker 5 (42:37):
Was actual science to back that up, I could offer grace,
and so I deal with some anxiety and OZD. So
he offers me grace around that. But when it comes
to him not being able to find his inhaler for
the day, like it's an explanation, not an excuse, I
don't like run and jump in and act as his
(42:59):
executive funk all the time, but I could offer grace
around the situation because I just understand it more.
Speaker 2 (43:05):
Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
It's like I think people can who can make space
for each other in that way probably really level up
as a duo. Like you start to do that thing
where the unit is greater than the sum of its parts.
And I find that to be really inspiring. And it
also makes me think, like I actually think maybe this
(43:27):
is just because I've been rewatching the West Wing. I'm like, God,
people with ADHD would probably make such great like presidents
because they could be in charge of all the big
thoughts and then they'd have like all the chiefs of
staff like handing them the things they'd leave behind them otherwise.
I'm just like, I'm like, maybe Martin Sheen.
Speaker 4 (43:45):
Had ADHD, didn't have ADHD.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
She has to write and like, yeah, he's he's so freaky,
like freakishly smart that he must That's what it is.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
That's obviously what it is.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
Let's diagnose them.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
It's yeah, okay, great, And now a word from our
sponsors who make this show possible. I find it really
fascinating too, because like, y'all have to figure out how
to navigate this stuff together. And I love that you
(44:23):
frame it as being awesome, as being kind of a superpower,
because I actually think it is, you know, and when
we realize that for us as adults we're figuring this out.
I also know thanks to you guys, that you know,
more than one in ten children in the US are
being diagnosed with ADHD, and I know your son has ADHD.
(44:47):
So I'm really curious what the experience is like for
you guys as a family to help him hack this
stuff earlier, to maybe not have to do a round
two as like a husband, to figure out in your
adult life how to manage it, but to grow up
with tools and because you're helping him grow up with
(45:10):
the tools that you perhaps didn't have. How it makes
you look at like the school system and what he
needs not just in your house but outside of your house.
Speaker 4 (45:20):
Well, starting just with him. I think it's really weird.
Very early on, when I suspected that he had ADHD,
I fell into a trap. I don't know, like maybe
I need to go see a therapist about this of
being like not wanting him to do what it was
that I did, because this was before I went down
this journey five years ago, like, oh, he may have
(45:42):
this brain like, dude, stop chewing on your shirt. It's
like it because I have this thing where I would
chew on it was apparently an ADHD esque thing because
of your fidgetiness. When I'm concentrating, concentrating, I chew on
my shirt and get like.
Speaker 6 (45:55):
A huge when he was a yes, and I'd never
seen cheek yeah okay yeah, And so I see my
son doing it, I'm like, dude, I stop.
Speaker 4 (46:06):
And then you know, I realized many years later that
that's not that's not a bad things. It's our way
of releasing some nervous energy. It's also a way to
stave off distraction and stay focused on something, and so
all of these things, like you know, he still did
it after I learned this, all of these things that
(46:26):
I learned as a parent about like the right way
not to punish someone for the way that their brain is.
That'll help out a little bit. We've been very open
in all of this book studying, and we've written a
book that we think is readable by a fourteen year
old kid, maybe even a ten year old kid. We
(46:46):
have eight year old who reading the book because we
put a bunch of color and a lot of graphics
and a lot of brain breaks into it. Having said that,
I know that there's going to be some times that
he struggles, and I know he's going to be guilty
of being his own worst critic, like you said not
too long ago. So those are the things really trying
to keep in check, right.
Speaker 5 (47:07):
I will say that when we were in the office
and got his official diagnosis, we were already doing the
research for this book. So I'm already thinking, yeah, ADHD
has many downsides. It can totally suck. But I was like, no,
it's awesome. We're gonna we're gonna reframe this. But I
got the diagnosis and it came to us as if
it was like this really hard medical diagnosis and we
(47:28):
left the office kind of bummed out and sad, and
like when you're thinking, oh my gosh, my son's life
is going to be hard, like what is going to
be This is going to be a struggle for him.
And we really had actively as a family re train
and reframe our brains even though we were already living
it and already already doing that work. But this shame spiral,
(47:50):
I like, my heart breaks when he starts to feel
that shame. So like, yeah, something that was taught to
me and we learned is to offer connection instead of correction.
So he's a brilliant kid. He would do his homework
but not turn it in yep, And I would get
(48:11):
pissed off and I'd be like why you know, and
I'd snap and he off, Like the shame spire would start.
Now it's hey, that must be really frustrating to have
done all that work and now you're not going to
get credit.
Speaker 3 (48:25):
What do you think we can do?
Speaker 5 (48:26):
Like, I've offered connection and our relationship has totally softened
because he feels safe with me to be like mom,
can you believe it? He'll call me from school like, Mom,
I forgot my lunch again today. I'm like, I got
you buddy, Like he feels safe to talk to me
about these missteps.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
Yeah, instead of trying to hide them.
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Instead of trying to hide them. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (48:49):
And there's two ways the spiral can go right, like
the downward spiral. You mess up, your parent or your
loved one gets mad at you. You get ashamed. You
mess up again, you're already feeling bad about yourself, you know,
get more ashamed and more ashamed than it's all downhill
if you. If you mess up and someone gives you
grace and gives you encouragement, then you're much more likely
(49:10):
to work hard to keep it from happening again and
things start improving. Yeah, and that's a way better spiral.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Absolutely, And by the way, that's true for everyone, no
matter how you're wired.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
But the idea that you could offer someone, hey, that's okay,
what if we did this instead of what are you doing?
Speaker 3 (49:29):
Yeah, Like, nobody.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
Likes likes option B, but we don't. We certainly don't
handle it well because we internalize it. And that's another thing,
Like I just sort of always assumed everybody felt this way,
and I think it certainly made me resilient because I
was like, well, better get on with it, Like I've
got shit to do.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
You know, I'm gonna go make.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
A TV show, in a movie and a thing, you
know whatever. Like I've done so many things that I'm
so proud of.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
And like, oh, maybe I didn't need to white knuckle
through all of.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
That so hard. Like I probably could have done just
as much cool shit without feeling like I was on
the receiving end of a like a fire.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
Hose most of the time.
Speaker 4 (50:17):
But you still have so much more of your life
to enjoy without the well.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
And that's it, and that's absolutely it, and that's why
I think, like, you know, the book is so exciting.
I think it's so cool that not only you know,
did you guys as a family unit choose this as
an undertaking, but you know, you did what you do
with so much of your work and your profile and
your platform in general, which is welcome us into it
(50:42):
and like offer things to others. I find it to
be so incredibly generous. So bless bless our Saint of
Katie Kirk for bringing us together here on.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
This podcast today.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
I would love to ask you my favorite question to
ask everybody, which is whether it's personal, professional, big small.
From where you sit today, what feels like your work
in progress?
Speaker 4 (51:09):
You go listening, I want to be a better listener.
I have this brain. It is a wonderful brain. It
is constant. So my brain is the neurotypical brain is
like a VIP party with like a bouncer and one
of those velvet ropes, and it knows how to keep
out things, let in certain things at certain times. My
(51:32):
brain is Coachella. It's an open air party. You can
feel the wind and the rain lightening, and everyone's invited
and it is a wonderful place to be. So really,
most of my time when I'm awake, I am bouncing
from fascinating possibility to fascinating possibility. Ding ding ding. Yeah.
I think about space and asteroid mining in the universe
(51:53):
at least six times a day, and it's my favorite
times in the day. Sometimes it happens when someone's trying
to tell me something really important. Yeah, and I and
so I know that I have to work on it.
And I also know that all of these wonderful things
that I'm thinking of are great and they're the reason
for creativity in my job, but I could really enrich
my life if I knew more about the people around me.
(52:15):
So I should just like, it's not that I'm talking.
I should shut my brain up every once in a
while and really work hard at trying to listen more
and learn more, because is really the best part of
the world are the other people that are in it,
not asteroids.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
That's cool, but.
Speaker 3 (52:34):
You really did circle babe five five.
Speaker 2 (52:38):
You're in the state of flight and you landed the plane.
Speaker 4 (52:41):
It's you know, people with ADHD, they can be like
about to land. Yeah, they just.
Speaker 5 (52:50):
My work in progress so much. I mean, I've found
a new therapists, so there's a lot of what I'm
working on. But my assignment from my new therapist is
I'm going to not I have this habit of I
say it's fine, it's fine, everything's fine when it's not fine.
So I'm trying to label and name emotions. I'm feeling like,
I'm happy and excited, grateful to meet you and other Yeah,
(53:14):
I'm trying to name that.
Speaker 3 (53:15):
So that's what I'm working on.
Speaker 4 (53:17):
I love that sures.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
Oh gosh, you know, it's interesting that you say the
thing about listening, because listening is one of my favorite
things to do, and I think because of my job,
like I find artistry in really being present and having
an emotional reaction to the unexpected thing I hear. I
don't struggle so much with like a random topic distraction
(53:44):
though I literally have like a symbol from the Golden
Record tattooed on my arms. So if you want to
talk about space obsessions, we're going to.
Speaker 4 (53:51):
Have a follow up, let's say we'll go off one.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
But but what I have is hard time with which
now I understand to be like part of this sort
of neuro wiring is if you say something and I
have something to share, which that for me, fosters connection.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
I don't want to interrupt.
Speaker 1 (54:10):
But I really, really really want to tell you the
thing that you made me think of because of your
great story, because to me, that's like real connection.
Speaker 2 (54:19):
But you're not done.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
Talking, and so to be able to take a deep
breath and wait and be okay with risking that by
the time you finish your story, I'm probably not going
to remember this thing. I'm so excited to tell you
because you'll have made me think of something else, Like
that's really okay. What I'm excited to tell you, it
can be a blip or it can be a thing
(54:42):
that gets said, And like, honestly, either outcome is probably
not going to change your life, and it's probably not
going to change mine either. Like it's all right. And
I have had to learn that my love of connecting
with people does not need to supersede the normal cadence
of conversation. Because when I do that, and when I
(55:05):
get into like a very neurospicy like yeah, yeah, and
do you know or I heard this thing or I
read this article in the Atlanta last week and you're
really gonna like it, people are like, what.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
The fuck is wrong with her? You know?
Speaker 1 (55:18):
And and it's I just have to like take a breath,
and it's all good. We're already here, we're already talking.
I don't have to prove anything. We're fine.
Speaker 4 (55:30):
Well, without even meaning to, You've really helped me out
there by explaining that because I'm guilty of the same thing.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
For sure.
Speaker 5 (55:36):
He heard whatever space tattoo and he's like, oh my gosh,
I have to tell her about Yeah, he.
Speaker 4 (55:41):
Read Kim knows what I'm about to do it at
dinner and she just jams.
Speaker 3 (55:44):
It's just.
Speaker 5 (55:46):
A couple because I find interrupting people incredibly.
Speaker 3 (55:49):
I just find it.
Speaker 5 (55:50):
In some cases, sometimes it's a fun continuation, like kind
of kinetic energy. I love that too. But sometimes I'm like,
we're just we're just meeting these people.
Speaker 1 (56:01):
Yeah, just wait, Yeah, that's It's like I've trained enough
puppies through the course of my life to know that
when you say something and I want to tell you why,
I know something about that, or basically say, oh my gosh,
me too, Like that's like the excited puppy. That's like
sitting there begging for a treat, and it's like you
(56:21):
just have to wait your turn, small end, and like
being able to kind of for me at least a
sign a metaphorical identity to my puppy response and also
to my like rebellious, sassy thirteen year old that the
minute it hits ten thirty one pm, and I was
ready for bed at ten twenty six, but ten thirty
(56:43):
is my teenage witching hour, and I'm like, nobody can make.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Me go to bed.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
I'm going to watch a whole show till five o'clock
in the morning. Like I can't let her drive the car.
She needs to be put to sleep.
Speaker 3 (56:54):
She needs go to bed, like.
Speaker 1 (56:56):
I have to put I me adult Sophia has to
you forcibly put thirteen year old me to bed every
single night, every night.
Speaker 4 (57:07):
Yeah, I mean by my my trainer Kim has to
shock Coller me under the table talking that puppy metaphor
was actually hit for you.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
Yeah yeah, And like if you think of it, if
you think of that thing in you as like a
sweet little puppy, it's adorable and you can have, like
at least for me.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
I won't generalize. I can have. I can have.
Speaker 1 (57:27):
Empathy for it. And I think being in healthy partnership
does it too. Like the number of times a day
my partner will grab me by the face and be
like you sweet little adhd baby, like I love how
quirky you are, and just kiss me. And I'm like, okay,
I know I'm so weird. And she's like, you're my
favorite kind of weird. I'm like, okay, all right, all right,
(57:48):
well look at that, like there really is a shoe
for every foot, and like you need your yours to
like jab you under the table to calm you down,
and that's okay, that's love.
Speaker 5 (57:59):
Actually, him, my human gold and retriever though, because he
is very excitable and he'll probably lick you. No, I'm kidding,
but he will, yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
Energetically.
Speaker 4 (58:09):
And metaphorically, not right on the face. Yeah, like this
is we're coming to a really weird landing. It's the
kind of landing I like to get back.
Speaker 5 (58:20):
I like the world would be without these spicy brains.
Speaker 3 (58:24):
I mean, yeah, you just did something for me.
Speaker 1 (58:28):
I didn't interrupt earlier when I really wanted to, and
I didn't because, first of all, I figured you'd read it,
but you reminded me how boring the world would be.
Speaker 2 (58:36):
When we were talking.
Speaker 1 (58:36):
About the stats around diagnosis, it made me think. I
think it was maybe last month. I don't know if
it was the New York Times or Popular Science or whatever,
but an article hit about how scientists now think that
ADHD was an evolutionary change, like a superpower for hunter
gatherers to survive, and.
Speaker 2 (58:57):
I was like, see, we are humans. I got very excited.
So you know, the world does need us, or maybe
we would all starve.
Speaker 5 (59:06):
We're probably here today because of some ADHD people who
are like, I see those berries, those look kind of weird.
Speaker 3 (59:12):
I'm not gonna eat those. I'm gonna go over here.
Speaker 5 (59:15):
Yeah yeah, so thanks guys.
Speaker 1 (59:18):
You know you're welcome. Guys, thank you so much for
joining me today. This has been so much fun. Next
time I'm in North Carolina, we all got to get
a meal.
Speaker 3 (59:29):
I would love that.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
I would love that
Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
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Sophia Bush
Robert Buckley
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