November 21, 2024 • 63 mins
Zachary Quinto has thrilled audiences with his performances on stage, film, and TV, starring in huge hits like Heroes and American Horror Story and playing the iconic character Spock in the Star Trek reboot. The brilliant actor is now tackling a new role in NBC's medical drama "Brilliant Minds."
In a candid chat, pals Zachary and Sophia get very vulnerable about the election's outcome and how they plan to move forward. Zachary also talks about his journey through sobriety, shares the impact meditation has had on him, the biggest shift in his life that set him on the path to acting, and how booking Heroes and Star Trek at age thirty affected him.
Plus, Zachary reveals why he initially was not interested in playing the leading man in NBC's new medical drama, "Brilliant Minds," and what changed his mind.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to Work in Progress friends. I cannot think of
a better guest to have on the podcast this week
(00:22):
for some introspection and some hope and some ough some
really good heart talk about compassion, not to mention all
of the artistry. This week's guest is none other than
Zachary Quintel. You likely know Zach for his roles as Siler,
the primary antagonist from the sci fi drama series Heroes,
(00:43):
or Spock in the film Star Trek and its sequels,
perhaps from playing the ever so scary doctor Oliver Threadson
an American horror story Asylum, which he was nominated for
an Emmy four. He is currently starring in and producing
NBC's Brilliant Minds. It is an incredible medical drama that
(01:06):
honors the life of real doctor Oliver Sachs, who explored
neurology and consciousness and made incredible progress in our understanding
of the human mind. Zach also has one of the
most incredible theater careers everywhere from New York Broadway, the
West End all over. He is an absolutely incredible stage
(01:27):
actor and he's a really phenomenal advocate and activist for
the queer community being out since twenty eleven. Zach has
been an incredible organizer and we are so lucky to
have him here today. Let's jump in. Hi, Hi Handsel.
(01:54):
Are you silly question? I know, I literally this morning
have just been I mean, I've been catatonic for a week.
But I was like, thank God it's Zach.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Like I was wearing my hair as walls hat today
when I went out to a meeting. I was like,
you know what, I'm realizing this profound shift in practical
ways now, in ways where our position now becomes a
position of resistance, you know, it becomes a position of
(02:28):
our power is in the holding of who we are
and where we are in the world. And that's you know,
that is not the way I we would have liked
to see it, I know, but it doesn't diminish the
power of our position or experience. And so I think
it's just it's about really for me, it's been really
(02:53):
about plugging into that. This week for me has been
obviously very disorienting, and I would say the primary experience
that I've been having is one of trying to discern
a proportional response to what's happening because I think obviously
(03:14):
the outcome of this election is indicative of a much
broader failing of humanity. In many ways, it's a much
broader indicator and harbinger of what's to come. And I
think in some ways it is the outcome that was necessary,
(03:37):
and I think we can we can see that by
just how definitive it was, you know, just how absolutely
unambivalent it was. There was no ambiguity in this election.
And so I think that is a real indicator for
me of the broader conversation that we need to be
having right now, not only is a mayor, but as
(04:00):
human beings.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Absolutely. I think something that's giving me some comfort is
seeing as the you know, the rest of these votes
in large states like ours get tallied, you see that
it was not an overwhelming majority at all. That does
actually help. But one of the things that it really
(04:23):
has solidified for me is, you know, the difference between
complex messaging and simple messaging and the simplicity of your
life is bad because of these people. Not Here's what
a four year economic recovery post a pandemic and global inflation,
and it bills to deal with it, and you know,
(04:48):
it's so complex to have real conversations, and when you
make people afraid, you can make them work against themselves.
And one of the big things that has been a
big aha moment for me in this is that they've
made every single issue that governs progress feel as elective
(05:13):
as they've always treated women's issues. So they'll say to us,
and you saw it a lot on this campaign because
of the overturning of Row. We understand the women are upset,
but we're focused on the economy, as though women being
denied medical care and dying in hospitals is somehow less
important than the economy for everyone.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I e.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
The men. And we've basically, I don't think we've figured
out how to be clear that social issues, moral issues
are economic issues. Sure, of course, you know, the one's
been sort of relegated into emotion and one's been relegated
(05:55):
into fact, even though the quote unquote fact of the
economy is something that they're lying about. And I'm like,
oh wow, we have to figure out how to communicate
and translate things like policy in completely new ways.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah. I mean, also, as you're talking, you know, I
think we also have to zoom out again from this place, right,
I think, for me, what this experience has taught me
and brought me closer to in myself is this fundamental
understanding that we are living in an entirely unprecedented time,
(06:33):
that there is actually not one single human being on
the face of this planet, including Kamala Harris or Joe Biden,
or Donald Trump or Elen Musker, any of them, that
has experienced what we are about to experience collectively in
the next five, ten, fifteen, twenty twenty five years. Now,
one single person in the face of the planet has
experienced what we're about to encounter as a civilization. And
(06:56):
we need to get real about this truth. Yeah that
when you take the veryariables of climate change and artificial
intelligence and the confluence of those two things alone, not
to mention the myriad other things that are factors outside
of our control. But if you take those two alone
and you consider the mass migrations on this planet that
(07:16):
we're already starting to see that are only going to
intensify and increase, You're going to have tens of millions
of people on the face of the planet needing to move,
needing to leave where they are because their homes, their
homelands are uninhabitable. This is very real, and anyone is
(07:38):
welcome to deny it as vehemently or as long as
they so choose, but eventually it will become undeniable. And
then you add into that mix the infiltration of artificial intelligence.
This is a technology which we have already brought into
(07:58):
our experience. We've already brought it into our lives. It's
on our phones, it's in my toothbrush, and you know,
the the blanket way in which we've embraced this technology
that we know so very very little about, and this
(08:19):
technology which is designed to evolve exponentially. The supposition that
that technology will not evolve beyond our capacity to manage it,
or regulate it or control it is absurd as far
as I'm concerned. And the question is really just a
matter of how long will it take for that to happen.
(08:41):
And so once that happens, and you mix into the
confluence of you know, global migrations and climate migrations and
climate refugees, we're going to see a planet that doesn't
resemble itself in any way. And I think you know
to what it is now, and I think that that's
going to happen a lot sooner than we might think.
(09:04):
You know, if not in our lifetime, certainly in our
children's lifetimes, not that I have children, but if I did,
you know, my god children's lifetimes, my yes. So I
feel like yes, politics, yes, how do we communicate policy? Yes? Yes? Yes?
And how do we move beyond these social constructs and
(09:26):
belief systems that we have all collectively agreed would be
our guiding principles through this life, which are clearly showing
signs not only of strain, but of collapse. The structures
are not holding anymore. Geopolitical boundaries are not going to
be any kind of calming force in the context of
(09:51):
climate change or artificial intelligence. Right, people who cannot any
longer live in the place that they were living and
have to move somewhere else are not going to be
able to afford the luxury of a boundary, of a
national boundary. It's simply eventually not going to sustain with
the population of our planet. And so we really do,
(10:12):
I believe, have our responsibility to yes, get on the ground,
roll up our sleeves and figure out how can we
slow the role of this incredibly small minded, punitive, ungenerous
political platform that is embodied by this administration that's about
to take control. How can we resist, how can we
(10:34):
make it harder for them? But also how can we
realize that we kind of are focusing a little bit
on the wrong thing, and what we need to be
focusing on is actually how are we going to survive?
How are we going to thrive as a civilization? You know,
I mean the sort of most reductive example of this
(10:55):
that I could really think about is like just the
Middle East and the battle over these places, this land
that is so tethered to identity, religious identity. But the
reality is that when it's one hundred and seventy degrees
in a place that is uninhabitable, it doesn't matter who
got there first or who belongs to it, because nobody's
(11:17):
going to be able to be there. And so where
are we going to go together? Where are we going
to go together? That's my question for everybody, because we're
focused on the binary, we're focused on the black and white.
You're right, I'm wrong, it's this way, not that way.
But that way of thinking is really largely responsible for
(11:38):
Goddess here in the first place. And it's self directed.
It's small s self directed thinking, And what I'm suggesting,
and what I had been suggesting even through the campaign,
is that we have to create space to allow for
the evolution of our civilization, and the only way that
(12:00):
we're able to do that is to expand consciousness. And
so for me, the outcome of this election and the
thing that is instilled in me is this commitment to
my own continued expanding consciousness and to encourage other people
to come on a path of consciousness expansion, because I
think it's the only way we're going to be able
(12:21):
to see beyond the things that are right in front
of us, that are blinding us to the fact that
the whole ship is sinking. Guys, you know, it's not
just our country. It's not just our country. It is
our civilization. And we have to be accountable to ourselves
and to each other in a way that transcends geopolitical identity,
(12:43):
in a way that transcends ideology, in a way that
transcends the constructs of radicalized religious fervor and extremism on
any level. And I think we're really living through the
awakening to that, and people are awakening to it at
(13:03):
different rates and in different ways, and it's coming online
in people's experience very differently, and this election was certainly
a big kind of unity point, I think for a
lot of our country and a lot of the world
to say, whoa wha wha wha wha Wait a minute,
this is what we're embracing now. This is the message
(13:25):
we're sending to the world. This place that for two
hundred and fifty years has been bring us, you're tired,
you're poor, bring us everything, and we will create a
place for that has just become There is no room
in the inn. That's what we have just become to
the world. And so how do we reconcile that as
(13:48):
people who still believe in those fundamental truths on which
this country was built. Yeah, that's I think really what
we have to ask ourselves now, And how do we
do it with compassion for the people who are so
spun up in anger and so spun up in hatred
that the only path that they see forward is to
(14:09):
cut other people down so that they can feel powerful. Right.
That is the thing that I think is the real
unknown variable in this equation, which is will it be
enough for them that they have won or is it
going to have to be also punishing and I think
I'm afraid that the answer is the latter.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, me too, particularly because I see the boasting about
it and the planning for it, and I do think
it's really interesting. We, as you said, the ground game
of making sure that we can wrap our arms around community,
(14:56):
we can support our most vulnerable, and it requires a
both and an extreme zoom in on the local level.
And then as you're talking about this massive zoom out
to discuss a global shift, because it's not a coincidence
that you have Nazis running for election in Sweden and
you have a far right violent leader in Italy and
(15:19):
around the world, you see this swing tourn athanitarianism, and
all the historians have been saying, hey, guys, we've been
trying to talk to you about one hundred year cycles.
We've said, it's coming. Study the nineteen twenties, study the
rise of Hitler. It's coming. And I think, as you've said,
we can look at history to understand how this kind
(15:42):
of fear based violent movement builds, but we have absolutely
no predictors for what it looks like in a modern era.
As the planet heats and as artificial intelligence has literally
declared a war on truth, science facts, and even injury.
We don't even know what if, what if what we're
looking at is real anymore, and so it's a very
(16:07):
wild time. But I want to thank you because in
all the years that I've known you, you're such a
you really are, And I just realized I almost did
a punt. I was going to say, you're such a
brilliant mind, and then I was like, wait, that's so dumb.
It's the literal name of your DV job. But it's true.
And and I really I always cherish the time that
(16:30):
I get to spend with you, because whether it's been
a week or a year, we just pick up and
you're just a gem in my life and you're one
of the people who makes me feel like we will
build the community we need.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So I just want to I feel that way about
you too. I really do thank you for saying that.
And you know, I I definitely am in this part
of my experience. This zoom out for me is where
I need to be. I know that a lot of
(17:07):
the things that I'm talking about seem abstract. I don't
think they're as abstract as as they might come across initially,
but I really do feel like this is a moment
of tremendous possibility. And you know, with possibility comes comes sacrifice.
(17:28):
With possibility comes you know, tumult And we are certainly
seeing that in our collective experience right now. But I
do feel like we cannot despair, you know, we cannot
we cannot surrender, we cannot collapse because the reality is
(17:50):
that there is space for everybody. That is the reality,
you know, from from a consciousness perspective, There is space
for everybody. And and I don't need to hate someone
else because they believe something differently from me, or they
live differently, or they are different than I. But and
(18:10):
I and I'm really trying to work with compassion for
people who do. I'm really trying to work with compassion
for people who do and to just say like I'm
I'm really sorry, because the ultimate thing is he may
be president, but I'll tell you something, the personal experience
must be really really bleak and dark. And and to
(18:38):
have that be the experience of consciousness is I just feel,
you know, I can't it's I don't know, I don't know,
I don't know what I can say. Yeah, it is
a really unfathomable time.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
We'll be back in just a minute. But here's a
word from our sponsors. Thank you for taking the time
to just sit in it with me. You know, normally
when someone comes on the show, we don't talk about
the president right away. The thing I love to ask
everyone because people know you from your amazing body of work,
(19:17):
and you know, especially in our peer group, we've now
been on television and whatnot for a long time, so
we've had this presence. You know, we've been blessed to
have this presence in people's lives and homes. But I'm
always really curious about who you were as a child,
and particularly I'm glad we've begun dropping into our present
(19:40):
before we rewind, because you are one of the most
intelligent and most thoughtful, most eloquent people that I know.
And I'm really curious if we could kind of rewind
the film of your life and go back and like
have lunch with eight or nine year old Zach in
the backyard. Were you were you always the kind of
(20:04):
kid where people said, Wow, you're so wise for your age,
or you're so much for your age. Were you very
bookish then, or have you evolved into a literary mind?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Oh well, that's so I'm bleshing. That's very so sweet
of me to say all those really kind things, Sophia,
thank you. I don't I mean, if I rewind the tape.
I have to say, the single most defining experience in
my entire life was the death of my father, which
happened when I was seven years old. And I think
(20:36):
that was the origin of my personality in a lot
of ways, because to experience a profound loss at such
a young age is to be almost instantly jettisoned into
(20:57):
an abyss of Yeah, it's somewhere no child should ever
have to be emotionally, spiritually, or psychologically. It's a tragedy
of life when a child loses a parent such an age.
And so I think that being cast into that is
(21:18):
where I realized from a very early age that I
needed to cultivate an inner knowing. And I think that
that tragedy evolved into the single greatest gift of my
experience because it really necessitated me cultivating a a mode
(21:45):
of self understanding and in a way to express that
as well. And so, you know, I was really precocious.
I was really like, I didn't have any kind of guardrails,
punchlag guard president I didn't have any I didn't have
any guardrails to kind of shape or define what was
(22:05):
the best way to communicate. And so it was a
real trial and error kind of situation. So I was smart,
but I didn't know what to do with it. So
I was kind of My mom always used to say,
you're such a know at all, you know. I used
to think I knew best about everything, and I was
really like and so I learned over the years how
to soften that part and cultivate, Like it's all about balance,
(22:27):
right when you're building an understanding of self, right, it's
really about kind of integrating and smoothing and that I
spent you know, all those fifty years doing so it's like,
you know, it's an evolution of course. And so if
we really rewind the tape back to then, it was
like I was, I was all over the place. You know.
(22:47):
I really had a pretty chaotic childhood just because of that,
because of my friend's death.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
My immediate thought is, I mean, age is soness for
little you. But also the shift if that were to
happen to a kid now, the mental health resources.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
The books to read, the accounts they could even follow
on social media about therapy, self care, grief process those
things didn't exist.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
When did not exist, It's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
How what did you turn to? You know? Was was
performance or cinema? Were those the places you could go
to learn how to process feelings?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well? I learned how to process feelings by watching the adults,
because nobody was coming to me to say, hey, little guy,
little seven year old, like, how are you feeling? And again,
I don't fault them for this, because, as you pointed out,
it just wasn't It wasn't a part of our social
fabric yet. So I don't fault anyone in my life
(23:58):
for not knowing to do better. But they certainly could
have done better. Yes, I remember vividly being in the
funeral home when my father was being laid out, and
I remember sitting in a chair and no one was
paying any attention to me because they were all sort
of in their own grief. And I remember looking around
(24:20):
at all these adults. So I was looking up and
around and I remember like, oh, because this is how
I learned about death. This is death. Okay, what do
I do? Well? Look at what she's doing. Oh, she
seems sad. She's crying. That seems okay, she cry. So
then I started to really like learn from watching adults,
(24:43):
and then that did very much segue eventually into me
finding my way into performing. I found my way into
acting classes. I found my way into performing in a
group in Pitts, where I grew up, and that became
an outlet for me to understand that these emotions that
(25:06):
I was feeling could be applied to something. Actually, like
it was a very bizarre way to arrive at a vocation,
but that's what happened, you know, And so I think
my personality really evolved from that. And I really understood
the value of observing an experience, internalizing an experience, and
(25:28):
then expressing an experience. And I learned that both as
a person but also as an actor, which I couldn't
have really identified at such a young age, but I
can now identify forty years later looking back on it. Yeah,
you just.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Jogged my memory about an experience I had in high
school learning that I could express anger on stage because
that was not I was never taught that it was
perfectionism and kindness and politeness. And you know, I do
all the things as an adult to learn to unpack
the sort of nature of people pleasing. I think service
(26:10):
is great, people pleasing less so, but yeah, acting watching
people get to have imperfect emotion, I was like, oh,
people get to do messy interesting. Yeah, and messy is
actually what makes life so beautiful and so interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, messiness was not allowed at home, or it was.
I mean home was messy, but you know, in the world,
like from home to the world, messiness wasn't an option presentationally,
So to learn how to present messiness or chaos or upheaval,
those things were valuable for me, as it sounds like
(26:50):
they were for you too.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I mean for me, something really transformative was having to
be forced to learn to judge the characters I play
because the immediate things a woman, oh what I couldn't
possibly but people will hate her, they will think, and
it's like, well, okay, interesting, Is she not allowed to
(27:15):
have a hard time? Is she not allowed to fail?
Is she not allowed to have a bad day?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Wow? It's so fascinating, And.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It was a really interesting thing for very cool.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So interesting what informs our process right in our relationship
to our work. But that's fascinating to you.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, now, I mean especially right now. I felt this
way prior to the election, and now I'm like, give me,
give me someone who's a mess, Like, where is my
nurse Jackie? I'm ready to go. You have played so
many iconic roles. I mean, we've talked a bit about
(27:53):
what it was like to step into the world of
Star Trek. We met, you know, as little in this
business when you were working on Heroes. What has been
sort of the real ratio of like because everyone will
always say, how do you pick roles? And sometimes you're like,
I pitched the role I auditioned.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
For and got exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Like what when you look back now on those moments
in time, how do you reflect on the show, that
cinematic universe? What do they mean to you?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Both Heroes and Star Trek were profoundly meaningful to me creatively, professionally, personally.
They happened within a year of one another, so it
went from you know, it was such a profound transformation
of experience for me when I was twenty nine and thirty.
(28:51):
I got Heroes in September two and six, and I
got Star Trek in April of two and seven, Junior
of two seven. Sorry, I got started two days after
my thirtieth birthday, So it really really informed that seminal
moment of my life by just kind of catapulting me
(29:12):
into another level of experience at thirty years old. So
I look back on them both with tremendous gratitude and fondness,
you know, for both what they and brought into my
life creatively and professionally, but also personally the relationships to
(29:35):
the friendships. You know, they were both really fun jobs.
And to learn to have my association with film and
television be so rooted in joy with those two shows
was really wonderful and has informed other experiences that I've had,
(29:56):
you know before that my experiences were either insignificant, you know,
just learn the ropes, like guest stars here and there,
and you know, just trying to cobble something together. The first,
the first ongoing TV job I had was on twenty four,
that show, and that was not a very pleasant experience,
and so I didn't really feel inspired by it, and
(30:22):
it kind of left me with a little bit of
uncertainty about like what is this going to be like?
And then heroes came into my life in a way,
and there were some other things in between there that
were really fun. And influential as well. But yeah, but
I'd say that was the kind of journey of it.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute after a
few words from our favorite sponsors. When and I don't
you know, you don't obviously have to share, but I
know what it's like to work on a set that
makes you go, wait, do I want to do this?
This feels not nice? How did you sort of navigate
(31:06):
out of an unpleasant, recurring experience so that you could
go into a show like Heroes with a new sort
of energy? Were you were there?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
There?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Skills you were learning, you know. I know you've talked
so much about your passion for meditation. I'm like, is
that when you started meditating?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
No? No, no, no, not at all. I didn't start
medic until much, much, much, much later. No, I was learning,
you know. That was a real learning learning time for me.
And to be on twenty four and to work in
an environment like that with consistency, and to have a
job and to be able to earn a living as
an actor, there was a lot of gratitude that I
had at the time, and I made the most of
(31:46):
the experience. It just wasn't a pleasant environment. You know,
and we know from working in television that the person
is responsible for the environment. I said, is the number
one of the call sheet. And that was not an
environment that was fostered by number one in the call
(32:06):
sheet in a generous or compassionate way at all. And
so I learned a lot about power dynamics. I learned
a lot about what not to do, actually, and I
think sometimes learning what not to do is even more
important than learning what to do. Yeah, and now that
I am number one in a call sheet, you know,
(32:29):
twenty some years later, I can guarantee you that not
one single person who walks on my set will ever
have the experience that I had when I walked on
the set of twenty four And so, you know, I
do think that those lessons of how we carry things
with us and how we move through the world get
(32:51):
informed by lessons of what not to do.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah. I ran my last show in a very specific
way for the exact same reason, and nothing mattered more
to me, even though we did one season. Like for me,
it's the best project, not because of the time, but
because of the feedback, and particularly because of the feedback
from the men on set who said, Wow, this is
(33:18):
even really different from me. I'm so grateful to have
done this. And I just think there's like you can
either have a ripple effect that's hurtful or a ripple
effect that's really healing for people. And I love that
you're in that. Does being number one on that call
sheet on you know, it's a big show, it's a
big network, you know, NBC show. Is there something about
(33:42):
that where you know, the you who was pounding the
pavement on all the auditions back in the day. Do
you go like, Wow, shit, I really made it. I've
got this thing. Or because you've had so many verticals
under the you know, the sort of tent of your career,
particularly you know your theater work is so amazing, do
(34:05):
you kind of check boxes in each designation of performance?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
No? No, I don't really. It's just all it's all
an evolution, so one thing leads to another. I can't
have one experience if I haven't had the experience before it,
and so I never look at it as like, oh
I need to achieve this level of something. It's like
it's all a continuum for me. It's all like, well,
where do I go now? That was an incredible experience
(34:33):
and now or maybe that wasn't such an incredible experience,
But where do I go now? You know, whatever the case,
maybe I've been very fortunate. I mean, I do feel
very lucky that a lot of the things that I've
worked on, even if they weren't smash hit, you know, projects,
were very enjoyable and fulfilling, and so, you know, I
really look at it that way. I really look at
my relationship to my work is my work is done
(34:55):
when I leave a project, you know, and in the
case of film and television, then a lot of other
people come in and start their process and you know,
shape the work after I've done my part, and so
then I can relinquish because it's out of my control.
So I really try to stay connected to what it
(35:16):
is that I have some measurable hand in influencing, because
then then I can stay where I am and I
don't get pulled ahead of myself or behind myself. That's
something I've learned over time as well. But so for me,
(35:36):
it's just about like what is going to be the
most interesting next thing. I don't plot or plan more
than to say that I do. I did my first
play in New York in twenty ten, I did Angels
in America, and when I did that, I made a
commitment to myself that I would do a play every
other season, and pretty much with the exception of COVID,
(35:58):
I've been able to adhere to that commitment. So I
really do carve out time in my life to do theater,
and that has been the foundation and the basis, and
I think, in many ways the catalyst for a career
that has now spanned you know, twenty years almost.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
That's so cool.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Probably more Jesus, more.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Nobody, we don't have to count. You know, something I
really admire. And I know I mentioned a little bit
of this before, but you've shared a lot about meditation.
You've You've also shared a lot with people about how
you know when when you hit a certain level of success.
(36:44):
You talked about how drinking.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Got problematic for you, oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
And the reason I sort of lumped the two together
is because, really, just in what you talked about with work,
there's also the personal practice of not.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I won't even.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Say not, of having to learn not to let so
much noise and so much expectation completely pull you out
of yourself. You know, I talked about this recently with
some of the abuse folks like us face on the internet.
And I said, look, no matter how many millions of
people come in, there's still just one of me. It
(37:22):
is a very strange experience as a human to be
sort of expected to output everywhere all the time. How
did you kind of shift a relationship with alcohol which
can become so problematic for so many artists, and not
just shift it, but find a healthier practice for yourself?
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Right? Well, yeah, I stopped drinking altogether. I don't drink
at all. And it's been eight years. Wow, never ever
miss it. Never. I can't imagine a circumstance under which
I would ever think it would be the right decision
to have a drink that could change. I suppose I
allow for that to change, but I couldn't conceive of it, really.
(38:10):
And I was totally sober for six years, and I think,
you know, during that time, I faced a lot of
aspects of myself that I hadn't allowed space or time for,
and that was really challenging. It was really difficult getting sober.
(38:33):
It was really really hard. But I've never been one
to shy away from hard work within myself. You know,
I've been in therapy for over twenty years. I've done
a lot of different exploration around spirituality, expanding consciousness. I
(38:59):
worked with medicine quite a bit. I've been to Peru
numerous times. I've spent a lot of time in the
jungles with the Shapebo people there, and so I've I've
learned a lot of lessons by by by going deep
within myself and uh and and I'm now in a
place in my life where I'm starting to be able
(39:20):
to accumulate the lessons and lay them out in front
of me and recognize them for what they are and
see how they connect and acknowledge from a place of
deep gratitude and humility that it is those lessons that
have made me who I am and uh and and
(39:41):
a lot of those lessons were hard won, hard learned,
you know. But but that's sort of how I how
I approach it. And meditation, I think I would have
to say, has been the single biggest teacher for me.
It's absolutely transformed my life in ways that I am
(40:04):
always happy to talk about if people are interested in listening.
But I started meditating six years ago, and it came
from a place of incredible upheaval and trauma in my
life at the end of a long relationship that ended
in a particularly brutal way and left me feeling bereft
(40:28):
of any sense of direction in my own life. And
so I had this meditation practice. I got initiated into
transcendential meditation a few months after I got sober in
twenty sixteen. But I had a very tenuous relationship with
my practice. It's intended to be twice a day, twenty
(40:49):
minutes each time, and I would maybe do it once
a day, a couple times a week. You know. I
was not really in any kind of a consistent flow
with my practice until this moment of tremendous upheaval, and
I had no way. I couldn't I couldn't feel my
(41:13):
way through the emotional pain. Yeah, so I just started meditating.
I said, well, I have this in my in my toolkit,
why why not try it and see what happens. And
so I started meditating. And now for six years, I
have meditated every day twice a day for the most part,
you know, And it's and from there I found teachers.
(41:38):
I found people that I really aligned with and identified
with and who really inspired me and who really taught
me to really teach me. It's really revolutionized who I
am and how I am.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, I love that. It's amazing. And now for our sponsors,
it's not lost on me that you are willing to
share parts of yourself when you talk about things like this,
you know, to be so beautifully acknowledging, you know, a
(42:18):
struggle that so many people in the country and around
the world go through when habits become potentially risky, you know,
vergon or could be classified as addiction. You know, we're
talking about mental health, and we're talking about grief and
loss and all of these things, and there is a
really interesting kind of tightrope that is so important to
(42:40):
walk as a public figure, you know, to not reduce
your humanity and become a paper doll version of yourself
in the world, but also to not encourage an invasion
of privacy. And I think I'm just so amazed in
the way that you do it. And I'm grateful, you know,
(43:01):
not just as a person who considers you a friend
or the person who's interviewing you today, but you know
also someone who runs in this in this business, because
you you remind me of how to do it really well.
And I think back to twenty eleven, because you were
doing Angels in America in twenty ten, which is, you know,
(43:24):
a sort of iconic not just play, but play for
the LGBTQ plus community. And you did the play in
twenty ten, but you came out in twenty eleven. And
I'm really curious about your journey and your decision because
I've I've just done this, you know, in my own way, myself.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Share of course beautifully as well, I think, I mean,
we try.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
But I wonder for you, you know, thirteen years ago,
what was the experience like for you culturally, because that's
also five years before you began your meditation practice, five
years before you got sober. You know, I just wonder
in the kind of tapestry of your life how that
(44:16):
experience affected you in your journey.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Right. I made a promise to myself when I became
famous that I would not adjust the way I live
my life in the face of that reality. And I've
pretty much been able to adhere to that, you know,
I've pretty much been able to cultivate a life for
(44:42):
myself which recognizes the fact that I am very very
very human, and I'm very very very flawed, and I
have come to cultivate compassion for myself and acceptance of
myself and a generosity to myself which is not informed
by whether or not I'm famous. And so those are
(45:06):
the things that guide me. And so in talking about it,
I feel like we are all in this together, yes,
And I think it's never been more important to realize
that than it is right now. And so if anything
that I've gone through experienced resonates for someone, or makes
someone feel seen, or allows someone to access or acknowledge
(45:31):
some part of themselves that they previously hadn't been able
to access or acknowledge, then that's part of my purpose.
That's part of why I am in the position that
I've been to be able to have this conversation with
you that a lot of people will listen to if
they want to. So I see it contextualized in that way.
(45:52):
And so for me, those kinds of conversations are what
life is about. Whether you're famous or not, we should
be having them. And I don't want to let the
fact that I happen to be a public figure diminish
my capacity to have those conversations or the experiences of
life that I want to have as well. You know,
(46:13):
so I really just try to live a life that
is aligned with my understanding of who I am, and
my understanding who I am, as I mentioned before, is
not something that I take for granted, and it's not
something that I allow to be dictated to me. It's
something that I have worked long and very hard to
(46:35):
define for myself, and so that's how I try to
move through the world. And I've had incredibly valuable and
rich experiences as a result, and so I just have
taken that as an indication that I should just keep
doing what I've been doing because it's allowed me to
(46:58):
arrive at a place where I feel I feel really grateful.
So coming out for me was one of those times
where I just I've told this story many times, so
anybody that is interested in my coming out can probably
just google it, and there's many interviews about it and many,
(47:20):
you know, articles and podcasts. I've talked about it a lot.
But you know, the thing that I can acknowledge in
this conversation that's relevant to what we're talking about is
that it was one of those times where I didn't
look outside of myself for guidance. I looked inside myself
for guidance. And I, And even though I was still
(47:42):
drinking and I wasn't yet meditating, I still was attuned
enough with an inner knowing that made that decision completely
unambivalent and completely unambiguous. I didn't need anybody's help or guidance,
and I didn't tell anybody that I was going to
come publicly. I did it on my own terms, in
my own time, in my own way. And then after
(48:05):
that I told people by the way I came out
in that interview that I gave for New York Magazine.
You know, I really asked of myself, what is the
best path here? And I and I trusted the answer.
And that's a notion that I have really worked to
(48:27):
implement in many different ways of my life.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
I also think there's a really profound shift that happens
as an individual when you really really listen to what
your soul is telling you, no matter what the rest
of the noise in the world around.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
You is, that's exactly right. Yeah, And that was an
early lesson for me in my career that helped me
solidify that notion of that what you just.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Said, I love that. I think it's so beautiful and
I don't think it's an accident. You know, I don't
want to sound like the most la person and like
do the wu thing, but I think it's really pretty
profound when you look at the journey of your career
(49:20):
and your life and your self exploration that the job
you are currently doing really revolves around neurology, like the
inner workings of the brain. But you can address a
lot of that's it, it's conscious.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Soular Sacks was. You know, the character that I play
is based on a real life person, Oliver Sacks, who
was a renowned neurologist and prolific author and someone who
is voraciously curious about the human experience as it relates
to consciousness, which is really the final frontier of the
human experience. And I agree with you. I think there
(50:01):
is no mistake and why not get woo woo. Honestly,
you know, if you really, if you really zoom out
and look at the mystery of life, there is an
element of it that that cannot be explained by any
way other than an expression of cosmic nature. And I
(50:21):
think the more that I, in my own experience have
opened to that and allowed for that in my life,
the miracles just keep revealing themselves. You know, and that
is that is to me become a significant life's purpose,
making space for those miracles and making space for for
(50:44):
cosmic nature.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Yes, okay, So I have a question because the man
you play, as you mentioned, you know, for the folks
at home, a wonderful person to research in their cars
or in their cars. Yes, well, yeah, if you're going
to google him and do some research case when not driving.
But you know you do you But I'm so curious
(51:09):
about this because we've talked about the show. But I
realized I haven't asked you this question even offline. Did
you bring this project to the network?
Speaker 2 (51:18):
No?
Speaker 1 (51:19):
No, I was curious if you developed it because of
all your study. So how did it find you? How
did it happen?
Speaker 2 (51:29):
I was doing a play in London and I was
coming to the end of my run, and so it
was time to consider what was next, and was having
those conversations with my agents and my managers, and they
came to me with this project. And I was originally
a little unsure if I wanted to go into a
(51:54):
network tea. I don't know. I just was like, is
this what we're doing now? Like this was kind of
at the height of the success of show was like
White Lotus and Succession, these zeitgeisty shows, these HBO shows
that were like you know on HBO or streamers or
you know, just so I thought like, is the network
path the way to go? But I was really strongly
(52:15):
advised to consider it, and so I did, and I
read the script, which was very well written, and then
I tried to say no, and my team was like,
I really was like, I don't know, guys, I'm not
sure this is for me. I know, I'm not sure
it's the right time basically the right fit at the
right time, and they really encouraged me to reconsider. And
(52:35):
part of that reconsideration was they said, just take a
meeting with the creative team and see how you feel.
You know, they're really interested in you for this, and
so I did. I met with Michael Grassie, our showrunner
and one of the most delightful humans and so smart,
and at the end of that zoom, I was like, Oh,
I got to do this pilot. You know, I just
(52:56):
knew from the alchemy of our chemistry. He was so
just exactly the kind of collaborator that I want, the
way he talked about it, the way that he asked
me questions. I just felt like, Oh, this is going
to be a really rich collaboration, and so I said yes.
(53:16):
And then it was kind of a miracle that the
show went from pilot to series because we did the
pilot and then the strikes happened, and in the middle
of the strike, Susan Rosner, who was running NBC left
and Lisa Katz came in and Donna Langley got promoted,
and we all thought like, oh, well, you know, that's
never a good sign in the middle of a you know,
(53:37):
a decision making period, when like a regime change happens
at the executive level, you kind of just figure, like
all the old stuff is going to get thrown out
with the old administration. Seems fitting, But it wasn't the case.
They really stayed committed to the show and they really
have invested in it, and they picked it up to
series and they've been incredible partners, and I just feel
(54:00):
really grateful, and I hope we get to keep telling
me stories because it's been a real choice and honoring
Oliver Sacks and working with this incredible cast of actors
on the show and UH and Michael Grassi and all
the wonderful directors and producers. I mean, it's just a
really good vibe. And so I hope we get to
keep doing it. But but we'll see. We don't know yet.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
I hope so too. I really love it, Thanks, I
really do. What do What do you feel like? Obviously
it was a tumultuous time between pilot and series and god,
the stress of that. But now that you're in it,
you know what, what do you think the things are
that you've discovered about your character? Are there things when
(54:44):
you when you get the next script for the next episode,
you really just feel like, God, I relate to this person.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I relate to a lot about this character. Actually, yeah,
I would say. I mean, there's so many pair of
in this show that are just so insane. I mean,
just I've told this story before as well. But one
example is that, you know, Heroes, which we've identified as
the kind of most significant job in terms of influencing
(55:15):
my career trajectory. The whole catalyst of Heroes is that
there's a solar eclipse, and that the solar eclipse awakens
people to this power within themselves and suddenly they realize
that they're you know, they're called to something much bigger,
and that's the whole origin of the story of Heroes
(55:37):
and which was on NBC. Right, So this is my first,
you know, return to NBC. In fifteen years, I did
another limited series for NBC in the middle there, but
like in terms of a series and now a series
that I am leading, I come back to the place
where it all began fifteen years later, and we started
filming Brilliant Minds on April eighth, which was the day
(55:57):
of the solar eclipse. Wow. So like these kinds of
through line, full circle moments for me cannot be ignored,
you know. And so there's a lot of those little
things in the writing of the show, Like, for example,
I mean a big thrust of the show is the
(56:19):
relationship between the character I play all Over Wolfe and
his mother played by Donna Murphy. And I had a
very complicated relationship with my own mother and the fact
that that is at the center of the show and
that I'm processing and working through all of this stuff
that you know, I can really deeply relate to. And
(56:41):
then on top of that, there's this episode in the
show where my character is obsessed with ferns and plant
life as Oliver Sacks in real life was as well.
And so there's an episode where he's trying to bring
this fern back to life and he's carrying it into
the hospital and everybody's sort of talking about it, and
(57:02):
he says, well, this is and his name he names
his plants, and Michael Gressie could never have known this.
But when I was a child, I had an imaginary friend.
And my imaginary friend's name is Longo, and Longo I
would blame sometimes for things that if like my mom
(57:22):
found something like who ate all this, you know, candy
or something, I'd be like, well, anggo did it? You know?
I would like have this kind of relationship where I
would try to implicate him as the fall guye for
things that I did wrong. And my mother, to her
great creative credit, combated that tendency in me by creating
(57:43):
her own imaginary friend who was Longo's mother. So my
mother then said, well, I just talked to Longo's mother,
and so she created this whole kind of network of
like accountability basically within this fantasy of my childhood. Those
mother's name was Gertrude, and so whenever I'd be like
a long ago did it she'd be like, well, I
(58:04):
just looked to Gertrude, and Gertrude told me that that's
not true, you know, So it was this kind of Also,
Gertrude would factory in other ways, Like it wasn't always
just to kind of like hold me accountable. But however,
when I read this script for the show, this one
episode where I'm carrying this front around tonight, and I
walk in and all my interns are standing there look
at me, and they're like, what's that. And I'm like, oh, well,
(58:24):
this is Gertrude, this is my firm. So just like
these little little easter eggs, you know, these little things
that are like oh wow, Like I can relate to
this character on levels that no audience member would ever
know about or need to know about. But my connection
to the character is informed so much more richly and
deeply because of that memory that I have about my
(58:46):
own mother, which then informs the relationship that my character
has with his mother on the show. So those kinds
of things, I mean, that's just one example of dozens
of examples where it feels like the nature of this
work and the nature the show and what Michael is writing,
what I am at this point in my life meant
to be exploring as an actor. Yes, are just all
(59:08):
there for the picking if I'm looking for them and
if I'm tuned into them, and that kind of attunement
is the very thing that my meditation practice has encouraged
me and taught me how to cultivate and nurture and
amplify in my own life. So I'm much more tuned
to that than I would have been if I haven't
(59:30):
been on this journey of meditation.
Speaker 1 (59:33):
Just the sort of concentric circles of it all, it's
so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Yeah, it's really.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yeah, it's undeniable. When you can feel that sort of sparkle,
you know there's something really to it. Oh, I just
love it so much. What then, you know, it seems
like sounds like you are in such a beautiful place personally,
(01:00:00):
But when you kind of look at the landscape of
your life, maybe what you think about for the next year,
what feels like you're work in progress.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
We last of last Wednesday, it all became a work
in progress for all of us. So I think a
lot remains to be seen with regard to what this
country is going to look like in a few months
to me, meditation has never been more important than it
(01:00:34):
is right now. I'm certainly really doubling down on that
aspect of my life. I'm always a work in progress.
I mean, I just feel like life is being a
work in progress. Life is when I look at the
older people in my life now that I'm sort of
in the midpoint ish, you know, and I look at
(01:00:56):
the people who are closer to the end. It's the
people that I can say moved through their experience of
life with curiosity, with openness, with compassion both for themselves
and for others, with clarity of who they are, and
(01:01:18):
confidence in expressing who they are and never allowing circumstance
to define who they are. Those are the people that,
in their seventies and eighties and nineties, I say, that's
the kind of life that I want to live. And
so then I say, well, what do they all have
in common? It's those people who are still vital, who
are still mobile, who are still engaged in the world.
(01:01:42):
Who are you know, atrophied or you know, crypt up
or you know haunched over. You know, it's like the
people who stop it's the people who stop caring. It's
the people who stop learning. It's the people who stop
thinking and feeling. Those are the people who start to
I think kind of, and of course, anything can happen.
(01:02:02):
You know. I'm grateful and blessed every day that I'm
healthy and that i'm you know, vital in the world.
We never know when that could change for any of us.
But for as long as I am vital and able
bodied and connected, my goal is to allow that to
be my guiding principle and see how far it gets me,
because those are the people in my life who have
(01:02:24):
gotten the farthest, who are now you know, in their
late seventies, eighties, and nineties, who still find joy in
everything that they experience, or at least most of what
they experience, and when they don't find joy, they find compassion.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
I love that, Oh I love it. I just adore you.
Thank you for this.
Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Astorre you too. I'm so glad to see you. I'm
so grateful we got to do this, and I know
that these are troubling times. These are uncertain times, and
I think to show up for one another and to
show up with one another is really all we can
ask for. So I appreciate you asking me to show
up and I'm glad I did. I can't wait to
see you again soon.
Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome
back to Work in Progress friends. I cannot think of
a better guest to have on the podcast this week
(00:22):
for some introspection and some hope and some ough some
really good heart talk about compassion, not to mention all
of the artistry. This week's guest is none other than
Zachary Quintel. You likely know Zach for his roles as Siler,
the primary antagonist from the sci fi drama series Heroes,
(00:43):
or Spock in the film Star Trek and its sequels,
perhaps from playing the ever so scary doctor Oliver Threadson
an American horror story Asylum, which he was nominated for
an Emmy four. He is currently starring in and producing
NBC's Brilliant Minds. It is an incredible medical drama that
(01:06):
honors the life of real doctor Oliver Sachs, who explored
neurology and consciousness and made incredible progress in our understanding
of the human mind. Zach also has one of the
most incredible theater careers everywhere from New York Broadway, the
West End all over. He is an absolutely incredible stage
(01:27):
actor and he's a really phenomenal advocate and activist for
the queer community being out since twenty eleven. Zach has
been an incredible organizer and we are so lucky to
have him here today. Let's jump in. Hi, Hi Handsel.
(01:54):
Are you silly question? I know, I literally this morning
have just been I mean, I've been catatonic for a week.
But I was like, thank God it's Zach.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Like I was wearing my hair as walls hat today
when I went out to a meeting. I was like,
you know what, I'm realizing this profound shift in practical
ways now, in ways where our position now becomes a
position of resistance, you know, it becomes a position of
(02:28):
our power is in the holding of who we are
and where we are in the world. And that's you know,
that is not the way I we would have liked
to see it, I know, but it doesn't diminish the
power of our position or experience. And so I think
it's just it's about really for me, it's been really
(02:53):
about plugging into that. This week for me has been
obviously very disorienting, and I would say the primary experience
that I've been having is one of trying to discern
a proportional response to what's happening because I think obviously
(03:14):
the outcome of this election is indicative of a much
broader failing of humanity. In many ways, it's a much
broader indicator and harbinger of what's to come. And I
think in some ways it is the outcome that was necessary,
(03:37):
and I think we can we can see that by
just how definitive it was, you know, just how absolutely
unambivalent it was. There was no ambiguity in this election.
And so I think that is a real indicator for
me of the broader conversation that we need to be
having right now, not only is a mayor, but as
(04:00):
human beings.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Absolutely. I think something that's giving me some comfort is
seeing as the you know, the rest of these votes
in large states like ours get tallied, you see that
it was not an overwhelming majority at all. That does
actually help. But one of the things that it really
(04:23):
has solidified for me is, you know, the difference between
complex messaging and simple messaging and the simplicity of your
life is bad because of these people. Not Here's what
a four year economic recovery post a pandemic and global inflation,
and it bills to deal with it, and you know,
(04:48):
it's so complex to have real conversations, and when you
make people afraid, you can make them work against themselves.
And one of the big things that has been a
big aha moment for me in this is that they've
made every single issue that governs progress feel as elective
(05:13):
as they've always treated women's issues. So they'll say to us,
and you saw it a lot on this campaign because
of the overturning of Row. We understand the women are upset,
but we're focused on the economy, as though women being
denied medical care and dying in hospitals is somehow less
important than the economy for everyone.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I e.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
The men. And we've basically, I don't think we've figured
out how to be clear that social issues, moral issues
are economic issues. Sure, of course, you know, the one's
been sort of relegated into emotion and one's been relegated
(05:55):
into fact, even though the quote unquote fact of the
economy is something that they're lying about. And I'm like,
oh wow, we have to figure out how to communicate
and translate things like policy in completely new ways.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah. I mean, also, as you're talking, you know, I
think we also have to zoom out again from this place, right,
I think, for me, what this experience has taught me
and brought me closer to in myself is this fundamental
understanding that we are living in an entirely unprecedented time,
(06:33):
that there is actually not one single human being on
the face of this planet, including Kamala Harris or Joe Biden,
or Donald Trump or Elen Musker, any of them, that
has experienced what we are about to experience collectively in
the next five, ten, fifteen, twenty twenty five years. Now,
one single person in the face of the planet has
experienced what we're about to encounter as a civilization. And
(06:56):
we need to get real about this truth. Yeah that
when you take the veryariables of climate change and artificial
intelligence and the confluence of those two things alone, not
to mention the myriad other things that are factors outside
of our control. But if you take those two alone
and you consider the mass migrations on this planet that
(07:16):
we're already starting to see that are only going to
intensify and increase, You're going to have tens of millions
of people on the face of the planet needing to move,
needing to leave where they are because their homes, their
homelands are uninhabitable. This is very real, and anyone is
(07:38):
welcome to deny it as vehemently or as long as
they so choose, but eventually it will become undeniable. And
then you add into that mix the infiltration of artificial intelligence.
This is a technology which we have already brought into
(07:58):
our experience. We've already brought it into our lives. It's
on our phones, it's in my toothbrush, and you know,
the the blanket way in which we've embraced this technology
that we know so very very little about, and this
(08:19):
technology which is designed to evolve exponentially. The supposition that
that technology will not evolve beyond our capacity to manage it,
or regulate it or control it is absurd as far
as I'm concerned. And the question is really just a
matter of how long will it take for that to happen.
(08:41):
And so once that happens, and you mix into the
confluence of you know, global migrations and climate migrations and
climate refugees, we're going to see a planet that doesn't
resemble itself in any way. And I think you know
to what it is now, and I think that that's
going to happen a lot sooner than we might think.
(09:04):
You know, if not in our lifetime, certainly in our
children's lifetimes, not that I have children, but if I did,
you know, my god children's lifetimes, my yes. So I
feel like yes, politics, yes, how do we communicate policy? Yes? Yes? Yes?
And how do we move beyond these social constructs and
(09:26):
belief systems that we have all collectively agreed would be
our guiding principles through this life, which are clearly showing
signs not only of strain, but of collapse. The structures
are not holding anymore. Geopolitical boundaries are not going to
be any kind of calming force in the context of
(09:51):
climate change or artificial intelligence. Right, people who cannot any
longer live in the place that they were living and
have to move somewhere else are not going to be
able to afford the luxury of a boundary, of a
national boundary. It's simply eventually not going to sustain with
the population of our planet. And so we really do,
(10:12):
I believe, have our responsibility to yes, get on the ground,
roll up our sleeves and figure out how can we
slow the role of this incredibly small minded, punitive, ungenerous
political platform that is embodied by this administration that's about
to take control. How can we resist, how can we
(10:34):
make it harder for them? But also how can we
realize that we kind of are focusing a little bit
on the wrong thing, and what we need to be
focusing on is actually how are we going to survive?
How are we going to thrive as a civilization? You know,
I mean the sort of most reductive example of this
(10:55):
that I could really think about is like just the
Middle East and the battle over these places, this land
that is so tethered to identity, religious identity. But the
reality is that when it's one hundred and seventy degrees
in a place that is uninhabitable, it doesn't matter who
got there first or who belongs to it, because nobody's
(11:17):
going to be able to be there. And so where
are we going to go together? Where are we going
to go together? That's my question for everybody, because we're
focused on the binary, we're focused on the black and white.
You're right, I'm wrong, it's this way, not that way.
But that way of thinking is really largely responsible for
(11:38):
Goddess here in the first place. And it's self directed.
It's small s self directed thinking, And what I'm suggesting,
and what I had been suggesting even through the campaign,
is that we have to create space to allow for
the evolution of our civilization, and the only way that
(12:00):
we're able to do that is to expand consciousness. And
so for me, the outcome of this election and the
thing that is instilled in me is this commitment to
my own continued expanding consciousness and to encourage other people
to come on a path of consciousness expansion, because I
think it's the only way we're going to be able
(12:21):
to see beyond the things that are right in front
of us, that are blinding us to the fact that
the whole ship is sinking. Guys, you know, it's not
just our country. It's not just our country. It is
our civilization. And we have to be accountable to ourselves
and to each other in a way that transcends geopolitical identity,
(12:43):
in a way that transcends ideology, in a way that
transcends the constructs of radicalized religious fervor and extremism on
any level. And I think we're really living through the
awakening to that, and people are awakening to it at
(13:03):
different rates and in different ways, and it's coming online
in people's experience very differently, and this election was certainly
a big kind of unity point, I think for a
lot of our country and a lot of the world
to say, whoa wha wha wha wha Wait a minute,
this is what we're embracing now. This is the message
(13:25):
we're sending to the world. This place that for two
hundred and fifty years has been bring us, you're tired,
you're poor, bring us everything, and we will create a
place for that has just become There is no room
in the inn. That's what we have just become to
the world. And so how do we reconcile that as
(13:48):
people who still believe in those fundamental truths on which
this country was built. Yeah, that's I think really what
we have to ask ourselves now, And how do we
do it with compassion for the people who are so
spun up in anger and so spun up in hatred
that the only path that they see forward is to
(14:09):
cut other people down so that they can feel powerful. Right.
That is the thing that I think is the real
unknown variable in this equation, which is will it be
enough for them that they have won or is it
going to have to be also punishing and I think
I'm afraid that the answer is the latter.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, me too, particularly because I see the boasting about
it and the planning for it, and I do think
it's really interesting. We, as you said, the ground game
of making sure that we can wrap our arms around community,
(14:56):
we can support our most vulnerable, and it requires a
both and an extreme zoom in on the local level.
And then as you're talking about this massive zoom out
to discuss a global shift, because it's not a coincidence
that you have Nazis running for election in Sweden and
you have a far right violent leader in Italy and
(15:19):
around the world, you see this swing tourn athanitarianism, and
all the historians have been saying, hey, guys, we've been
trying to talk to you about one hundred year cycles.
We've said, it's coming. Study the nineteen twenties, study the
rise of Hitler. It's coming. And I think, as you've said,
we can look at history to understand how this kind
(15:42):
of fear based violent movement builds, but we have absolutely
no predictors for what it looks like in a modern era.
As the planet heats and as artificial intelligence has literally
declared a war on truth, science facts, and even injury.
We don't even know what if, what if what we're
looking at is real anymore, and so it's a very
(16:07):
wild time. But I want to thank you because in
all the years that I've known you, you're such a
you really are, And I just realized I almost did
a punt. I was going to say, you're such a
brilliant mind, and then I was like, wait, that's so dumb.
It's the literal name of your DV job. But it's true.
And and I really I always cherish the time that
(16:30):
I get to spend with you, because whether it's been
a week or a year, we just pick up and
you're just a gem in my life and you're one
of the people who makes me feel like we will
build the community we need.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So I just want to I feel that way about
you too. I really do thank you for saying that.
And you know, I I definitely am in this part
of my experience. This zoom out for me is where
I need to be. I know that a lot of
(17:07):
the things that I'm talking about seem abstract. I don't
think they're as abstract as as they might come across initially,
but I really do feel like this is a moment
of tremendous possibility. And you know, with possibility comes comes sacrifice.
(17:28):
With possibility comes you know, tumult And we are certainly
seeing that in our collective experience right now. But I
do feel like we cannot despair, you know, we cannot
we cannot surrender, we cannot collapse because the reality is
(17:50):
that there is space for everybody. That is the reality,
you know, from from a consciousness perspective, There is space
for everybody. And and I don't need to hate someone
else because they believe something differently from me, or they
live differently, or they are different than I. But and
(18:10):
I and I'm really trying to work with compassion for
people who do. I'm really trying to work with compassion
for people who do and to just say like I'm
I'm really sorry, because the ultimate thing is he may
be president, but I'll tell you something, the personal experience
must be really really bleak and dark. And and to
(18:38):
have that be the experience of consciousness is I just feel,
you know, I can't it's I don't know, I don't know,
I don't know what I can say. Yeah, it is
a really unfathomable time.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
We'll be back in just a minute. But here's a
word from our sponsors. Thank you for taking the time
to just sit in it with me. You know, normally
when someone comes on the show, we don't talk about
the president right away. The thing I love to ask
everyone because people know you from your amazing body of work,
(19:17):
and you know, especially in our peer group, we've now
been on television and whatnot for a long time, so
we've had this presence. You know, we've been blessed to
have this presence in people's lives and homes. But I'm
always really curious about who you were as a child,
and particularly I'm glad we've begun dropping into our present
(19:40):
before we rewind, because you are one of the most
intelligent and most thoughtful, most eloquent people that I know.
And I'm really curious if we could kind of rewind
the film of your life and go back and like
have lunch with eight or nine year old Zach in
the backyard. Were you were you always the kind of
(20:04):
kid where people said, Wow, you're so wise for your age,
or you're so much for your age. Were you very
bookish then, or have you evolved into a literary mind?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Oh well, that's so I'm bleshing. That's very so sweet
of me to say all those really kind things, Sophia,
thank you. I don't I mean, if I rewind the tape.
I have to say, the single most defining experience in
my entire life was the death of my father, which
happened when I was seven years old. And I think
(20:36):
that was the origin of my personality in a lot
of ways, because to experience a profound loss at such
a young age is to be almost instantly jettisoned into
(20:57):
an abyss of Yeah, it's somewhere no child should ever
have to be emotionally, spiritually, or psychologically. It's a tragedy
of life when a child loses a parent such an age.
And so I think that being cast into that is
(21:18):
where I realized from a very early age that I
needed to cultivate an inner knowing. And I think that
that tragedy evolved into the single greatest gift of my
experience because it really necessitated me cultivating a a mode
(21:45):
of self understanding and in a way to express that
as well. And so, you know, I was really precocious.
I was really like, I didn't have any kind of guardrails,
punchlag guard president I didn't have any I didn't have
any guardrails to kind of shape or define what was
(22:05):
the best way to communicate. And so it was a
real trial and error kind of situation. So I was smart,
but I didn't know what to do with it. So
I was kind of My mom always used to say,
you're such a know at all, you know. I used
to think I knew best about everything, and I was
really like and so I learned over the years how
to soften that part and cultivate, Like it's all about balance,
(22:27):
right when you're building an understanding of self, right, it's
really about kind of integrating and smoothing and that I
spent you know, all those fifty years doing so it's like,
you know, it's an evolution of course. And so if
we really rewind the tape back to then, it was
like I was, I was all over the place. You know.
(22:47):
I really had a pretty chaotic childhood just because of that,
because of my friend's death.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
My immediate thought is, I mean, age is soness for
little you. But also the shift if that were to
happen to a kid now, the mental health resources.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
That's a good point.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
The books to read, the accounts they could even follow
on social media about therapy, self care, grief process those
things didn't exist.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
When did not exist, It's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
How what did you turn to? You know? Was was
performance or cinema? Were those the places you could go
to learn how to process feelings?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well? I learned how to process feelings by watching the adults,
because nobody was coming to me to say, hey, little guy,
little seven year old, like, how are you feeling? And again,
I don't fault them for this, because, as you pointed out,
it just wasn't It wasn't a part of our social
fabric yet. So I don't fault anyone in my life
(23:58):
for not knowing to do better. But they certainly could
have done better. Yes, I remember vividly being in the
funeral home when my father was being laid out, and
I remember sitting in a chair and no one was
paying any attention to me because they were all sort
of in their own grief. And I remember looking around
(24:20):
at all these adults. So I was looking up and
around and I remember like, oh, because this is how
I learned about death. This is death. Okay, what do
I do? Well? Look at what she's doing. Oh, she
seems sad. She's crying. That seems okay, she cry. So
then I started to really like learn from watching adults,
(24:43):
and then that did very much segue eventually into me
finding my way into performing. I found my way into
acting classes. I found my way into performing in a
group in Pitts, where I grew up, and that became
an outlet for me to understand that these emotions that
(25:06):
I was feeling could be applied to something. Actually, like
it was a very bizarre way to arrive at a vocation,
but that's what happened, you know, And so I think
my personality really evolved from that. And I really understood
the value of observing an experience, internalizing an experience, and
(25:28):
then expressing an experience. And I learned that both as
a person but also as an actor, which I couldn't
have really identified at such a young age, but I
can now identify forty years later looking back on it. Yeah,
you just.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Jogged my memory about an experience I had in high
school learning that I could express anger on stage because
that was not I was never taught that it was
perfectionism and kindness and politeness. And you know, I do
all the things as an adult to learn to unpack
the sort of nature of people pleasing. I think service
(26:10):
is great, people pleasing less so, but yeah, acting watching
people get to have imperfect emotion, I was like, oh,
people get to do messy interesting. Yeah, and messy is
actually what makes life so beautiful and so interesting.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Yeah, messiness was not allowed at home, or it was.
I mean home was messy, but you know, in the world,
like from home to the world, messiness wasn't an option presentationally,
So to learn how to present messiness or chaos or upheaval,
those things were valuable for me, as it sounds like
(26:50):
they were for you too.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I mean for me, something really transformative was having to
be forced to learn to judge the characters I play
because the immediate things a woman, oh what I couldn't
possibly but people will hate her, they will think, and
it's like, well, okay, interesting, Is she not allowed to
(27:15):
have a hard time? Is she not allowed to fail?
Is she not allowed to have a bad day?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Wow? It's so fascinating, And.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
It was a really interesting thing for very cool.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
So interesting what informs our process right in our relationship
to our work. But that's fascinating to you.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Yeah, now, I mean especially right now. I felt this
way prior to the election, and now I'm like, give me,
give me someone who's a mess, Like, where is my
nurse Jackie? I'm ready to go. You have played so
many iconic roles. I mean, we've talked a bit about
(27:53):
what it was like to step into the world of
Star Trek. We met, you know, as little in this
business when you were working on Heroes. What has been
sort of the real ratio of like because everyone will
always say, how do you pick roles? And sometimes you're like,
I pitched the role I auditioned.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
For and got exactly exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
Like what when you look back now on those moments
in time, how do you reflect on the show, that
cinematic universe? What do they mean to you?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Both Heroes and Star Trek were profoundly meaningful to me creatively, professionally, personally.
They happened within a year of one another, so it
went from you know, it was such a profound transformation
of experience for me when I was twenty nine and thirty.
(28:51):
I got Heroes in September two and six, and I
got Star Trek in April of two and seven, Junior
of two seven. Sorry, I got started two days after
my thirtieth birthday, So it really really informed that seminal
moment of my life by just kind of catapulting me
(29:12):
into another level of experience at thirty years old. So
I look back on them both with tremendous gratitude and fondness,
you know, for both what they and brought into my
life creatively and professionally, but also personally the relationships to
(29:35):
the friendships. You know, they were both really fun jobs.
And to learn to have my association with film and
television be so rooted in joy with those two shows
was really wonderful and has informed other experiences that I've had,
(29:56):
you know before that my experiences were either insignificant, you know,
just learn the ropes, like guest stars here and there,
and you know, just trying to cobble something together. The first,
the first ongoing TV job I had was on twenty four,
that show, and that was not a very pleasant experience,
and so I didn't really feel inspired by it, and
(30:22):
it kind of left me with a little bit of
uncertainty about like what is this going to be like?
And then heroes came into my life in a way,
and there were some other things in between there that
were really fun. And influential as well. But yeah, but
I'd say that was the kind of journey of it.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, we'll be back in just a minute after a
few words from our favorite sponsors. When and I don't
you know, you don't obviously have to share, but I
know what it's like to work on a set that
makes you go, wait, do I want to do this?
This feels not nice? How did you sort of navigate
(31:06):
out of an unpleasant, recurring experience so that you could
go into a show like Heroes with a new sort
of energy? Were you were there?
Speaker 2 (31:17):
There?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Skills you were learning, you know. I know you've talked
so much about your passion for meditation. I'm like, is
that when you started meditating?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
No? No, no, no, not at all. I didn't start
medic until much, much, much, much later. No, I was learning,
you know. That was a real learning learning time for me.
And to be on twenty four and to work in
an environment like that with consistency, and to have a
job and to be able to earn a living as
an actor, there was a lot of gratitude that I
had at the time, and I made the most of
(31:46):
the experience. It just wasn't a pleasant environment. You know,
and we know from working in television that the person
is responsible for the environment. I said, is the number
one of the call sheet. And that was not an
environment that was fostered by number one in the call
(32:06):
sheet in a generous or compassionate way at all. And
so I learned a lot about power dynamics. I learned
a lot about what not to do, actually, and I
think sometimes learning what not to do is even more
important than learning what to do. Yeah, and now that
I am number one in a call sheet, you know,
(32:29):
twenty some years later, I can guarantee you that not
one single person who walks on my set will ever
have the experience that I had when I walked on
the set of twenty four And so, you know, I
do think that those lessons of how we carry things
with us and how we move through the world get
(32:51):
informed by lessons of what not to do.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Yeah. I ran my last show in a very specific
way for the exact same reason, and nothing mattered more
to me, even though we did one season. Like for me,
it's the best project, not because of the time, but
because of the feedback, and particularly because of the feedback
from the men on set who said, Wow, this is
(33:18):
even really different from me. I'm so grateful to have
done this. And I just think there's like you can
either have a ripple effect that's hurtful or a ripple
effect that's really healing for people. And I love that
you're in that. Does being number one on that call
sheet on you know, it's a big show, it's a
big network, you know, NBC show. Is there something about
(33:42):
that where you know, the you who was pounding the
pavement on all the auditions back in the day. Do
you go like, Wow, shit, I really made it. I've
got this thing. Or because you've had so many verticals
under the you know, the sort of tent of your career,
particularly you know your theater work is so amazing, do
(34:05):
you kind of check boxes in each designation of performance?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
No? No, I don't really. It's just all it's all
an evolution, so one thing leads to another. I can't
have one experience if I haven't had the experience before it,
and so I never look at it as like, oh
I need to achieve this level of something. It's like
it's all a continuum for me. It's all like, well,
where do I go now? That was an incredible experience
(34:33):
and now or maybe that wasn't such an incredible experience,
But where do I go now? You know, whatever the case,
maybe I've been very fortunate. I mean, I do feel
very lucky that a lot of the things that I've
worked on, even if they weren't smash hit, you know, projects,
were very enjoyable and fulfilling, and so, you know, I
really look at it that way. I really look at
my relationship to my work is my work is done
(34:55):
when I leave a project, you know, and in the
case of film and television, then a lot of other
people come in and start their process and you know,
shape the work after I've done my part, and so
then I can relinquish because it's out of my control.
So I really try to stay connected to what it
(35:16):
is that I have some measurable hand in influencing, because
then then I can stay where I am and I
don't get pulled ahead of myself or behind myself. That's
something I've learned over time as well. But so for me,
(35:36):
it's just about like what is going to be the
most interesting next thing. I don't plot or plan more
than to say that I do. I did my first
play in New York in twenty ten, I did Angels
in America, and when I did that, I made a
commitment to myself that I would do a play every
other season, and pretty much with the exception of COVID,
(35:58):
I've been able to adhere to that commitment. So I
really do carve out time in my life to do theater,
and that has been the foundation and the basis, and
I think, in many ways the catalyst for a career
that has now spanned you know, twenty years almost.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
That's so cool.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Probably more Jesus, more.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Nobody, we don't have to count. You know, something I
really admire. And I know I mentioned a little bit
of this before, but you've shared a lot about meditation.
You've You've also shared a lot with people about how
you know when when you hit a certain level of success.
(36:44):
You talked about how drinking.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Got problematic for you, oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
And the reason I sort of lumped the two together
is because, really, just in what you talked about with work,
there's also the personal practice of not.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I won't even.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Say not, of having to learn not to let so
much noise and so much expectation completely pull you out
of yourself. You know, I talked about this recently with
some of the abuse folks like us face on the internet.
And I said, look, no matter how many millions of
people come in, there's still just one of me. It
(37:22):
is a very strange experience as a human to be
sort of expected to output everywhere all the time. How
did you kind of shift a relationship with alcohol which
can become so problematic for so many artists, and not
just shift it, but find a healthier practice for yourself?
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Right? Well, yeah, I stopped drinking altogether. I don't drink
at all. And it's been eight years. Wow, never ever
miss it. Never. I can't imagine a circumstance under which
I would ever think it would be the right decision
to have a drink that could change. I suppose I
allow for that to change, but I couldn't conceive of it, really.
(38:10):
And I was totally sober for six years, and I think,
you know, during that time, I faced a lot of
aspects of myself that I hadn't allowed space or time for,
and that was really challenging. It was really difficult getting sober.
(38:33):
It was really really hard. But I've never been one
to shy away from hard work within myself. You know,
I've been in therapy for over twenty years. I've done
a lot of different exploration around spirituality, expanding consciousness. I
(38:59):
worked with medicine quite a bit. I've been to Peru
numerous times. I've spent a lot of time in the
jungles with the Shapebo people there, and so I've I've
learned a lot of lessons by by by going deep
within myself and uh and and I'm now in a
place in my life where I'm starting to be able
(39:20):
to accumulate the lessons and lay them out in front
of me and recognize them for what they are and
see how they connect and acknowledge from a place of
deep gratitude and humility that it is those lessons that
have made me who I am and uh and and
(39:41):
a lot of those lessons were hard won, hard learned,
you know. But but that's sort of how I how
I approach it. And meditation, I think I would have
to say, has been the single biggest teacher for me.
It's absolutely transformed my life in ways that I am
(40:04):
always happy to talk about if people are interested in listening.
But I started meditating six years ago, and it came
from a place of incredible upheaval and trauma in my
life at the end of a long relationship that ended
in a particularly brutal way and left me feeling bereft
(40:28):
of any sense of direction in my own life. And
so I had this meditation practice. I got initiated into
transcendential meditation a few months after I got sober in
twenty sixteen. But I had a very tenuous relationship with
my practice. It's intended to be twice a day, twenty
(40:49):
minutes each time, and I would maybe do it once
a day, a couple times a week. You know. I
was not really in any kind of a consistent flow
with my practice until this moment of tremendous upheaval, and
I had no way. I couldn't I couldn't feel my
(41:13):
way through the emotional pain. Yeah, so I just started meditating.
I said, well, I have this in my in my toolkit,
why why not try it and see what happens. And
so I started meditating. And now for six years, I
have meditated every day twice a day for the most part,
you know, And it's and from there I found teachers.
(41:38):
I found people that I really aligned with and identified
with and who really inspired me and who really taught
me to really teach me. It's really revolutionized who I
am and how I am.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, I love that. It's amazing. And now for our sponsors,
it's not lost on me that you are willing to
share parts of yourself when you talk about things like this,
you know, to be so beautifully acknowledging, you know, a
(42:18):
struggle that so many people in the country and around
the world go through when habits become potentially risky, you know,
vergon or could be classified as addiction. You know, we're
talking about mental health, and we're talking about grief and
loss and all of these things, and there is a
really interesting kind of tightrope that is so important to
(42:40):
walk as a public figure, you know, to not reduce
your humanity and become a paper doll version of yourself
in the world, but also to not encourage an invasion
of privacy. And I think I'm just so amazed in
the way that you do it. And I'm grateful, you know,
(43:01):
not just as a person who considers you a friend
or the person who's interviewing you today, but you know
also someone who runs in this in this business, because
you you remind me of how to do it really well.
And I think back to twenty eleven, because you were
doing Angels in America in twenty ten, which is, you know,
(43:24):
a sort of iconic not just play, but play for
the LGBTQ plus community. And you did the play in
twenty ten, but you came out in twenty eleven. And
I'm really curious about your journey and your decision because
I've I've just done this, you know, in my own way, myself.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Share of course beautifully as well, I think, I mean,
we try.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
But I wonder for you, you know, thirteen years ago,
what was the experience like for you culturally, because that's
also five years before you began your meditation practice, five
years before you got sober. You know, I just wonder
in the kind of tapestry of your life how that
(44:16):
experience affected you in your journey.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Right. I made a promise to myself when I became
famous that I would not adjust the way I live
my life in the face of that reality. And I've
pretty much been able to adhere to that, you know,
I've pretty much been able to cultivate a life for
(44:42):
myself which recognizes the fact that I am very very
very human, and I'm very very very flawed, and I
have come to cultivate compassion for myself and acceptance of
myself and a generosity to myself which is not informed
by whether or not I'm famous. And so those are
(45:06):
the things that guide me. And so in talking about it,
I feel like we are all in this together, yes,
And I think it's never been more important to realize
that than it is right now. And so if anything
that I've gone through experienced resonates for someone, or makes
someone feel seen, or allows someone to access or acknowledge
(45:31):
some part of themselves that they previously hadn't been able
to access or acknowledge, then that's part of my purpose.
That's part of why I am in the position that
I've been to be able to have this conversation with
you that a lot of people will listen to if
they want to. So I see it contextualized in that way.
(45:52):
And so for me, those kinds of conversations are what
life is about. Whether you're famous or not, we should
be having them. And I don't want to let the
fact that I happen to be a public figure diminish
my capacity to have those conversations or the experiences of
life that I want to have as well. You know,
(46:13):
so I really just try to live a life that
is aligned with my understanding of who I am, and
my understanding who I am, as I mentioned before, is
not something that I take for granted, and it's not
something that I allow to be dictated to me. It's
something that I have worked long and very hard to
(46:35):
define for myself, and so that's how I try to
move through the world. And I've had incredibly valuable and
rich experiences as a result, and so I just have
taken that as an indication that I should just keep
doing what I've been doing because it's allowed me to
(46:58):
arrive at a place where I feel I feel really grateful.
So coming out for me was one of those times
where I just I've told this story many times, so
anybody that is interested in my coming out can probably
just google it, and there's many interviews about it and many,
(47:20):
you know, articles and podcasts. I've talked about it a lot.
But you know, the thing that I can acknowledge in
this conversation that's relevant to what we're talking about is
that it was one of those times where I didn't
look outside of myself for guidance. I looked inside myself
for guidance. And I, And even though I was still
(47:42):
drinking and I wasn't yet meditating, I still was attuned
enough with an inner knowing that made that decision completely
unambivalent and completely unambiguous. I didn't need anybody's help or guidance,
and I didn't tell anybody that I was going to
come publicly. I did it on my own terms, in
my own time, in my own way. And then after
(48:05):
that I told people by the way I came out
in that interview that I gave for New York Magazine.
You know, I really asked of myself, what is the
best path here? And I and I trusted the answer.
And that's a notion that I have really worked to
(48:27):
implement in many different ways of my life.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
I also think there's a really profound shift that happens
as an individual when you really really listen to what
your soul is telling you, no matter what the rest
of the noise in the world around.
Speaker 2 (48:46):
You is, that's exactly right. Yeah, And that was an
early lesson for me in my career that helped me
solidify that notion of that what you just.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
Said, I love that. I think it's so beautiful and
I don't think it's an accident. You know, I don't
want to sound like the most la person and like
do the wu thing, but I think it's really pretty
profound when you look at the journey of your career
(49:20):
and your life and your self exploration that the job
you are currently doing really revolves around neurology, like the
inner workings of the brain. But you can address a
lot of that's it, it's conscious.
Speaker 2 (49:38):
Soular Sacks was. You know, the character that I play
is based on a real life person, Oliver Sacks, who
was a renowned neurologist and prolific author and someone who
is voraciously curious about the human experience as it relates
to consciousness, which is really the final frontier of the
human experience. And I agree with you. I think there
(50:01):
is no mistake and why not get woo woo. Honestly,
you know, if you really, if you really zoom out
and look at the mystery of life, there is an
element of it that that cannot be explained by any
way other than an expression of cosmic nature. And I
(50:21):
think the more that I, in my own experience have
opened to that and allowed for that in my life,
the miracles just keep revealing themselves. You know, and that
is that is to me become a significant life's purpose,
making space for those miracles and making space for for
(50:44):
cosmic nature.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
Yes, okay, So I have a question because the man
you play, as you mentioned, you know, for the folks
at home, a wonderful person to research in their cars
or in their cars. Yes, well, yeah, if you're going
to google him and do some research case when not driving.
But you know you do you But I'm so curious
(51:09):
about this because we've talked about the show. But I
realized I haven't asked you this question even offline. Did
you bring this project to the network?
Speaker 2 (51:18):
No?
Speaker 1 (51:19):
No, I was curious if you developed it because of
all your study. So how did it find you? How
did it happen?
Speaker 2 (51:29):
I was doing a play in London and I was
coming to the end of my run, and so it
was time to consider what was next, and was having
those conversations with my agents and my managers, and they
came to me with this project. And I was originally
a little unsure if I wanted to go into a
(51:54):
network tea. I don't know. I just was like, is
this what we're doing now? Like this was kind of
at the height of the success of show was like
White Lotus and Succession, these zeitgeisty shows, these HBO shows
that were like you know on HBO or streamers or
you know, just so I thought like, is the network
path the way to go? But I was really strongly
(52:15):
advised to consider it, and so I did, and I
read the script, which was very well written, and then
I tried to say no, and my team was like,
I really was like, I don't know, guys, I'm not
sure this is for me. I know, I'm not sure
it's the right time basically the right fit at the
right time, and they really encouraged me to reconsider. And
(52:35):
part of that reconsideration was they said, just take a
meeting with the creative team and see how you feel.
You know, they're really interested in you for this, and
so I did. I met with Michael Grassie, our showrunner
and one of the most delightful humans and so smart,
and at the end of that zoom, I was like, Oh,
I got to do this pilot. You know, I just
(52:56):
knew from the alchemy of our chemistry. He was so
just exactly the kind of collaborator that I want, the
way he talked about it, the way that he asked
me questions. I just felt like, Oh, this is going
to be a really rich collaboration, and so I said yes.
(53:16):
And then it was kind of a miracle that the
show went from pilot to series because we did the
pilot and then the strikes happened, and in the middle
of the strike, Susan Rosner, who was running NBC left
and Lisa Katz came in and Donna Langley got promoted,
and we all thought like, oh, well, you know, that's
never a good sign in the middle of a you know,
(53:37):
a decision making period, when like a regime change happens
at the executive level, you kind of just figure, like
all the old stuff is going to get thrown out
with the old administration. Seems fitting, But it wasn't the case.
They really stayed committed to the show and they really
have invested in it, and they picked it up to
series and they've been incredible partners, and I just feel
(54:00):
really grateful, and I hope we get to keep telling
me stories because it's been a real choice and honoring
Oliver Sacks and working with this incredible cast of actors
on the show and UH and Michael Grassi and all
the wonderful directors and producers. I mean, it's just a
really good vibe. And so I hope we get to
keep doing it. But but we'll see. We don't know yet.
Speaker 1 (54:21):
I hope so too. I really love it, Thanks, I
really do. What do What do you feel like? Obviously
it was a tumultuous time between pilot and series and god,
the stress of that. But now that you're in it,
you know what, what do you think the things are
that you've discovered about your character? Are there things when
(54:44):
you when you get the next script for the next episode,
you really just feel like, God, I relate to this person.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
I relate to a lot about this character. Actually, yeah,
I would say. I mean, there's so many pair of
in this show that are just so insane. I mean,
just I've told this story before as well. But one
example is that, you know, Heroes, which we've identified as
the kind of most significant job in terms of influencing
(55:15):
my career trajectory. The whole catalyst of Heroes is that
there's a solar eclipse, and that the solar eclipse awakens
people to this power within themselves and suddenly they realize
that they're you know, they're called to something much bigger,
and that's the whole origin of the story of Heroes
(55:37):
and which was on NBC. Right, So this is my first,
you know, return to NBC. In fifteen years, I did
another limited series for NBC in the middle there, but
like in terms of a series and now a series
that I am leading, I come back to the place
where it all began fifteen years later, and we started
filming Brilliant Minds on April eighth, which was the day
(55:57):
of the solar eclipse. Wow. So like these kinds of
through line, full circle moments for me cannot be ignored,
you know. And so there's a lot of those little
things in the writing of the show, Like, for example,
I mean a big thrust of the show is the
(56:19):
relationship between the character I play all Over Wolfe and
his mother played by Donna Murphy. And I had a
very complicated relationship with my own mother and the fact
that that is at the center of the show and
that I'm processing and working through all of this stuff
that you know, I can really deeply relate to. And
(56:41):
then on top of that, there's this episode in the
show where my character is obsessed with ferns and plant
life as Oliver Sacks in real life was as well.
And so there's an episode where he's trying to bring
this fern back to life and he's carrying it into
the hospital and everybody's sort of talking about it, and
(57:02):
he says, well, this is and his name he names
his plants, and Michael Gressie could never have known this.
But when I was a child, I had an imaginary friend.
And my imaginary friend's name is Longo, and Longo I
would blame sometimes for things that if like my mom
(57:22):
found something like who ate all this, you know, candy
or something, I'd be like, well, anggo did it? You know?
I would like have this kind of relationship where I
would try to implicate him as the fall guye for
things that I did wrong. And my mother, to her
great creative credit, combated that tendency in me by creating
(57:43):
her own imaginary friend who was Longo's mother. So my
mother then said, well, I just talked to Longo's mother,
and so she created this whole kind of network of
like accountability basically within this fantasy of my childhood. Those
mother's name was Gertrude, and so whenever I'd be like
a long ago did it she'd be like, well, I
(58:04):
just looked to Gertrude, and Gertrude told me that that's
not true, you know, So it was this kind of Also,
Gertrude would factory in other ways, Like it wasn't always
just to kind of like hold me accountable. But however,
when I read this script for the show, this one
episode where I'm carrying this front around tonight, and I
walk in and all my interns are standing there look
at me, and they're like, what's that. And I'm like, oh, well,
(58:24):
this is Gertrude, this is my firm. So just like
these little little easter eggs, you know, these little things
that are like oh wow, Like I can relate to
this character on levels that no audience member would ever
know about or need to know about. But my connection
to the character is informed so much more richly and
deeply because of that memory that I have about my
(58:46):
own mother, which then informs the relationship that my character
has with his mother on the show. So those kinds
of things, I mean, that's just one example of dozens
of examples where it feels like the nature of this
work and the nature the show and what Michael is writing,
what I am at this point in my life meant
to be exploring as an actor. Yes, are just all
(59:08):
there for the picking if I'm looking for them and
if I'm tuned into them, and that kind of attunement
is the very thing that my meditation practice has encouraged
me and taught me how to cultivate and nurture and
amplify in my own life. So I'm much more tuned
to that than I would have been if I haven't
(59:30):
been on this journey of meditation.
Speaker 1 (59:33):
Just the sort of concentric circles of it all, it's
so beautiful.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
Yeah, it's really.
Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yeah, it's undeniable. When you can feel that sort of sparkle,
you know there's something really to it. Oh, I just
love it so much. What then, you know, it seems
like sounds like you are in such a beautiful place personally,
(01:00:00):
But when you kind of look at the landscape of
your life, maybe what you think about for the next year,
what feels like you're work in progress.
Speaker 2 (01:00:13):
We last of last Wednesday, it all became a work
in progress for all of us. So I think a
lot remains to be seen with regard to what this
country is going to look like in a few months
to me, meditation has never been more important than it
(01:00:34):
is right now. I'm certainly really doubling down on that
aspect of my life. I'm always a work in progress.
I mean, I just feel like life is being a
work in progress. Life is when I look at the
older people in my life now that I'm sort of
in the midpoint ish, you know, and I look at
(01:00:56):
the people who are closer to the end. It's the
people that I can say moved through their experience of
life with curiosity, with openness, with compassion both for themselves
and for others, with clarity of who they are, and
(01:01:18):
confidence in expressing who they are and never allowing circumstance
to define who they are. Those are the people that,
in their seventies and eighties and nineties, I say, that's
the kind of life that I want to live. And
so then I say, well, what do they all have
in common? It's those people who are still vital, who
are still mobile, who are still engaged in the world.
(01:01:42):
Who are you know, atrophied or you know, crypt up
or you know haunched over. You know, it's like the
people who stop it's the people who stop caring. It's
the people who stop learning. It's the people who stop
thinking and feeling. Those are the people who start to
I think kind of, and of course, anything can happen.
(01:02:02):
You know. I'm grateful and blessed every day that I'm
healthy and that i'm you know, vital in the world.
We never know when that could change for any of us.
But for as long as I am vital and able
bodied and connected, my goal is to allow that to
be my guiding principle and see how far it gets me,
because those are the people in my life who have
(01:02:24):
gotten the farthest, who are now you know, in their
late seventies, eighties, and nineties, who still find joy in
everything that they experience, or at least most of what
they experience, and when they don't find joy, they find compassion.
Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
I love that, Oh I love it. I just adore you.
Thank you for this.
Speaker 2 (01:02:42):
Astorre you too. I'm so glad to see you. I'm
so grateful we got to do this, and I know
that these are troubling times. These are uncertain times, and
I think to show up for one another and to
show up with one another is really all we can
ask for. So I appreciate you asking me to show
up and I'm glad I did. I can't wait to
see you again soon.
Hosts And Creators
Bethany Joy Lenz
Sophia Bush
Robert Buckley
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