Lifelines

Please note this episode deals with discussions of sexual and domestic violence.

Solange Ramkissoon has worked as part of a sexual assault response team and answers the phone when someone calls into their hotline. Throughout the pandemic when the instructions were to stay at home to stay safe from Covid, home was often the least safe place to be for those at risk of assault within the home. Throughout the pandemic when intimate partner violence increased with lockdowns, Solange and her team were answering phones and were 24/7 lifelines to support survivors. Roundtable guests: actress and advocate Gabrielle Union and expert on gender-based violence prevention and response, Lina AbiRafeh.

Learn more about SAVE of Essex County: https://www.familyserviceleague.org/save-of-essex#:~:text=SAVE%20of%20Essex%20County%20operates,%2C%20friends%2C%20and%20significant%20others.

Episode Transcript: https://app.trint.com/public/d61089fc-001c-4bd4-9327-c199d03f79d4

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Oh, I am Arela Wilmer. I have to say I'm
feeling released bringtime this year. Beyond the gorgeous weather and
the flowers coming to bloom, it is so lovely to
see more and more people out and about again. I
know we're out of the woods, but it does give
me hope. Yeah, me too, after so much grieving, it's

(00:21):
nice to have a bit to celebrate. But it's bittersweet though,
because with the coming of spring, it means we only
have a few episodes left. I know, it's really crazy
to think about the journey we've been embarking in together
their lives that we've been able to experience and get
to know. I know I'm going to miss hanging out
with all of you. If we only have a few
episodes left, Let's make them some good ones. What's up

(00:44):
on today's show, Mr. Today, we're going to hear from
Essential worker Solange rumcas Soon. She's worked as a survivor
services specialist for organizations like SAVE, which stands for Sexual
Assault and Violence Education, which is run by the Family
Service League of Six County. As an advocate, she worked
as a sexual assault response team and answers the phone

(01:05):
when someone calls into their hotline. She'll tell us about
the difficult realities of the work she does, her incredible
passion for that work, and how they had to pivot
to help survivors during COVID. To keep the conversation going,
we have a roundtable discussion with actress and advocate Gabrielle Union,
an expert on gender based violence, Lena Aberafi, and a
note to listeners. This episode deals with discussions of sexual

(01:28):
and domestic violence, so keep that in mind in deciding
when and where to listen. This is definitely one of
our harder conversations emotionally, but we learned so much. So
Launches Stories starts now. Hi. My name is solund ram
coassume my pronouns are she, her, hers, and I am
coming from doom Field, New Jersey. Hey, thank you so

(01:50):
much for being here with me and having this conversation.
I was really proud of the work you're doing and
can you describe you know what you do? Absolutely? I'm sorry.
Agency name is Family Service League STAVE of Essex County.
That's like our full name. SAVE stands for the Sexual
Assault and Violence Education in New Jersey, So that's like
the sexual violence program for Essex County. We are a

(02:12):
part of the Sexual Assault Response Team, which is you know, forensics,
nurse examiners, law enforcement officers, and then our save advocates
who are the confidential sexual violence advocates. And these advocates
such as myself, are the ones who answers the phone
when there's a hotline call. So these are fully trained
sexual violence advocates, you know, who go through a very

(02:33):
intensive training. That's the onboarding process for sexual violence advocates
who are able to provide president intervention through the hotline.
So that's kind of like the main origin point of
our services. And how did you specialize in advocacy for
domestic violence and sexual assault survivors? So our main program
is for sexual violence survivors, but many times, as many

(02:57):
of who worked in this field, no domestic volun and
sexual violence offer an interstect one another um such as
intimate partner violence. So we have a state coalition that
kind of oversees a lot of our training as well
as stuff that we do through our current center and program.
And some of us, such as myself, has received training
even before entering in the field that you know, I

(03:18):
went to school that studied a lot of victimology and
victim services UM, so we kind of pulled all that
together and then plus the additional sexual specialized training you know,
to perform that christis intervention with survivors because it's very
important to be able to you know, meet those needs
and to have somebody fully equipped to help assess that

(03:38):
with a survivor. It's like a very central component of
our work is like the value UM survirus autonomy. It's
a different perspective of training that's very different than other
service providers. What makes you passionate about your work? Is
there a specific memory? Is there something? How did you
get into this UM this line of work. You know,

(03:59):
growing up part of my culture and where I have
come from the very nurturing aspect, and what's your culture.
My background was from a West Indian Caribbean background. My
families from Trinidad, so we're very family oriented and you know,
you kind of grew up together, so it was always
you were helping out your siblings or your parents, your aunties,
your uncle's. It was a very nurturing thing. So that
was something I believe I was born with my blood,

(04:21):
so naturally I kind of gravitate that as part of
my friendships, and as I went to school and growing
up and you know, wenting to high school, traumas everywhere
and some people may not see if they're looking hard enough,
but it is visible and there. And I tend to
have noticed that when I was growing up, and I
didn't think at the time I was doing enough, you know,

(04:43):
just being somebody's friend, someone's family members or just as
a neighbor. I wanted to do more and that's kind
of what focused me to kind of navigate how do
I can make a career out of it? How can
I volunteer my time? And that's where I started doing
when I was in you know, in school and kind
of led me on my journey and it really spoke
to me in a way that now it has become

(05:04):
like an identity that I walk around with. How did
the pandemic change things? How did it change for you? Well,
before I talked about myself, I want to talk about
the survivors who they were currently jruggling so many important
considerations at this time, you know, their health, like you said,
the well being of themselves, their families, jobs that they

(05:25):
are not you know, un certain of it may not
hit it unsafe, unemployment, just the insecurity of jobs where
they're at, plus the ongoing violence that they may be experiencing,
and then the sense of loss, the grievances they've had
and not being able to celebrate or even grieve with
a people. That's a lot of additional trauma that the

(05:45):
pandemic put on survivors, not only their sexual avolentce trauma
they were dealing with. So as providers, you know, we
accepted all those very real, complicated considerations and we still
wanted to hold space for them without any judgment. And
these individuals who were going to therapy and making great progress,
or who were consistently calling the hotline now for the

(06:07):
isolated themselves because they didn't know what to do and
maybe they can't connect, but having privacy to even reach
out for those services, just because like you said, like
our planet was in a way a panic, we didn't
know what to do. Everybody kind of went to a
sudden stop and halt of normalcy. And for a survivor,
you tend to gravitate to feeling concrete about things around

(06:29):
you and dealing with their victimization and their survivorship. It
just wasn't the most important thing anymore to them. So
I don't find that to be unusual for COVID nineteen,
you know, because it really made an impact, especially on
the privacy and for those who are reaching out for help.
That's something that's very sacred to somebody, especially when they're

(06:50):
dealing with trauma. But as a service provider, you know,
it's devastating to learn this. I thought maybe like our
line wasn't working God forbid, or maybe they didn't know
if we were air. So, you know, we have experienced
a sudden wave of quietness for some time, which us
who are in the field, we know sexual violence didn't
just stop, and that made us concerned, you know, that

(07:13):
they may not be getting the help that they could
be getting. What could we do? I'd love for you
to talk a little bit about how you process things
yourself and how what do you do to self care?
How how do you how do you continue to do
what you do and continue to love life? Um? And
is there anything in place to help you? Also? Um,
you know what you do professionally. So like as workers

(07:36):
in the helping community, we tend to like tear care
of others and really forget to take care of ourselves.
So operating in a self care mindset and being accountable
for that is super important because that's how you last
to make this a long standing career. Because burnout is
a very real thing that could eliminate people from this work.
So even keeping that in mind, it's important to make

(08:00):
sure we separate those things from our personal lives, which
is important for me to have one because as I
mentioned before, I walked this as an identity of who
I am. I don't stop being an advocate just because I,
you know, not on shift that day. It's just who
I am, So really having separation from that is important.

(08:20):
A key thing for me was like my physical environment,
which was difficult during COVID. I kind of lost that
my home space you know, ended up being my workspace
for some time. And that's like a big thing that
affected many people who were working in COVID, and but
I learned to adapt and make a new sense of
what that separation could be. I tend to graphicate towards people.

(08:43):
I love to help people, and people are also that
the source of my happiness who I'm around. I love
my family. I love my parents, my siblings, my snuggles,
my dog. You know, that's how I separated because they're
blessed that they don't have to be with me every
day and what I do, So being with them as
a total separation really helps me transcend from that. And

(09:05):
that's kind of how I function being with those people
who I love, And that's like a key component to
my self care and taking time for myself. My main
thing is all about like self care for me, especially
like my body. During COVID, I think it was the
first time I ever prioritized that to the fullest I've
ever done, because I actually made time. I had to,
because I lost that environment that I used to like,

(09:26):
you know, do, I didn't walk outside, I didn't like,
you know, do anything. So I really took care of myself.
I spoiled myself at bath bombs, taking a bath, doing
my hair more. Even it was just for me. No
one had to look at me. But I looked at
myself every day and I was smiling, which is such
a silly thing to stay out loud, but that's kind
of how I felt every morning, you know, especially during

(09:46):
this work, I needed a reason to smile, and I
gave purpose for myself that I was like a good
reason to smile, Like I felt something looking at myself,
and that's kind of what helped me go through and
I've been learning to even as these slowly you know,
come throughout COVID, I continued to do that. And now
that I see like my colleagues again, people say that
I look different, and I don't think I actually changed,

(10:08):
but self care really does change the whole identity of somebody.
So I feel like a very different person. So I
definitely encourage anybody. If you did not practice it before,
you will feel like a whole another person. Even if
you actually didn't change anything about yourself, you will look, feel,
just breathe differently. Why infrastructure would you like to see

(10:30):
implemented not only to end domestic violence and sexual assault,
but for you and your fellow headline workers. So for survivors,
I would like, you know, be a sense of normalcy
to reach for services. There's a lot of shame for
anybody trying to read out for services, and I would
like for them to feel like it's okay and to

(10:51):
be supported through that and to be more services, not
even just my own. Again, we're a small nonprofit and
we can only do as much as we can, but
we're only as strong as the people who could come
join us. Like I said, we have a lot of volunteers,
and it's important for it to not just stop with us.
This is its own epidemic and it didn't start with COVID.

(11:14):
This has been going on historically for a very long time,
not only you know, with women, men, children. There needs
to be more hands on deck to kind of combat
that and to change the way we think and how
we view this violence. And I hope that it kind
of elevates to that level one day, and I hope
i am a part of that change. That's what I'm

(11:35):
working to become. And for my fellow colleagues who work
on the hotline and volunteers, I want us to feel
very good about what we're doing. We should be proud
of ourselves. This is a thankless job with what we do,
but I hope people think of us as heroes. And
I know that's not what we say to one another.
It's a very humble people that work on that end.

(11:57):
But I hope that we feel like the heroes that
we do for others. I want that for everyone to
feel like that, and anybody who works in the helping
community and works with survivors we don't call ourselves hero.
We don't wear an cape, and we don't wear no
cat suit. We're just humans on the other end, and
we just want to be there for people. But this
is such an important thing. I wish there was a

(12:20):
way to honor who we are in a bigger light
so that maybe there will be more people who kind
of develop this passion of how I do and my colleagues.
It's such a taboo when you talk about sexual violence
because people don't think it exists, and when you do
tell them, especially in their own communities, it's something that
they kind of like, I don't want to talk about
too much. But in order to end it, we need

(12:42):
to talk about it. Everyone who answers that how line
joins that journey with me. So to honor them in
a bigger way, I would love to that's the next step,
making them more than just behind the scenes. Well we'll
end it there. I mean, you couldn't have said it better.
So thank you for your time and not having this
conversation with me. Thank you so much of WMA for
having me was a pleasure. I'm so grateful that Solange

(13:06):
was willing to get vulnerable with us and talk about
the compounded trauma that not only the survivors she worked
with faced, but her own struggles as someone committed to
doing more. I found her words about self care incredibly
moving because as she found her own power in taking
care of herself, it enabled her to continue to help others.
You know it. It's a reminder that as a community,

(13:26):
we are so lucky to have people like so launch
on the other side of the phone, because, as she
pointed out, trauma is everywhere, and it is not just
the survivors who need her, but their loved ones and
anybody who wants to show up and help. On that note,
when we come back from the break, we'll talk with
Gabrielle Union and Lena amber Raffie. We'll be right back
after this break. Welcome to Essential Voices. Gabrielle and Lena

(13:53):
were so excited to have you on the show today,
and I know that Wilmer is eager to dive in,
So Wilmer take it away. So let's are with just
both of you. We can talk a little bit about
your reactions to to launch a story. We can start
with you, Gabriella. The first thing that struck me was
I've been utilizing these services and recommending these services for

(14:14):
almost twenty years since the time I became a rape survivor.
And I've never heard of them referred to as essential
I've never really heard of them referred to as workers
much less than essential work. But they literally save lives
every single day, every hour of every day around the world.
They are saving lives. They are first responders in a

(14:37):
way that unless you had to utilize their services, you
might not ever really acknowledge that they are first responders.
The other thing when she said about privacy, having privacy
to call the hotline, and you know, we always rack
our brains about you know, what are the obstacles stopping
people from getting the help that they need? And I

(14:59):
absolutely had thought about you know, now that we are
working at home, you know, for a lot of us,
due to the pandemic, are in the exact same space
with others and sometimes with our abusers. Where do you
find the space to make the call and to speak
unedited lee and to get the help that you need.
Where is that space? Where is that privacy? And that

(15:21):
just gave me the shakes, because you realize there are
so many obstacles that stop folks from getting help. But
I just hadn't thought of that one. It's always like,
I'll just call and it's like yeah. But if you're
in the same space or you're in shared space and
other folks are not familiar with your journey and what
you're dealing with, it's almost impossible, and so trying to

(15:43):
think of ways of addressing these things it feels never ending.
But at the end of the day, Solange, she is
a lifesaver. We love the Avengers and Marvel and d C.
But we have real life superheroes who do the work
every single day and it is taxing. I'm sure the
burnout is extreme. There's days where you know it will
always happen when I'm least expecting it. Coming out of

(16:04):
a bathroom, You're like, oh wait, let me wash my
hands first, and you just get the most horrific stories
of sexual violence. There's nothing that prepares you to hear
that day in day out, NonStop. There's days where you
know I'm called upon to speak and I feel nauseous
the whole time. It does get easier in a larger scheme,

(16:26):
but reliving your horror so folks don't feel alone, it
takes a toll. So listening to the stories as well.
It takes a lot, and so I'm just I give
up all the kudos, all the love, all the praise
to you know, people like so Lunch who do this
incredibly difficult work every day. Mm hmm, thank you. What

(16:46):
about for you, Lena Oh, I have to echo that absolutely.
I love the idea that we're honoring frontline workers and
we're defining that more broadly. We're really thinking differently about
what it means to be on the front lines. And
it's not just COVID. I mean this has been happened
since the beginning of time and it is absolutely life saving.
The idea that it is about bodily integrity and autonomy.

(17:07):
It is about your own dignity and respect, your right
to your own body and to not have it violated,
the things that we shouldn't be taking for granted and
that we have to fight for constantly. I mean, I've
been doing this work now twenty five years overseas and
I see it everywhere all the time, and it repeats
and it is constant, and you think you fixed one

(17:28):
problem and you find a hundred more. And talking about
what is life saving in these kinds of situations. You know,
it's like the tyranny of the urgent. People will always
tell you that there's something more important than this, But
in all the countries I've been in, all around the world,
you know, there's really nothing more important than this, being
safe and free and comfortable in your own body, in

(17:48):
your own home, in your school, on the street, in
the market, in the office, in public office. I sometimes
wonder how we're still even fighting for all of this.
And I love what so much had to say, you know,
she she started really young, Like I got into this
at fourteen. People were like, what are you doing? This
is so depressing, But I have not been able to
think about anything else. I've been thinking about it since

(18:10):
age fourteen, so a long time ago, doing the work
for twenty five years and about twenty different countries, and
I'm going to do it until I die, and even
then I wouldn't have fixed the problem. And I want
someone to dig me from the grave and let me
know when we're done, because I just can't believe that
we still have these issues on the table. You know,
we bring in something like COVID and it comes up
all over again and new forms and more, and it's worse,

(18:32):
and women are more at risk and less safe, and
I think I cannot accept this kind of world. So
I feel her very very deeply. But I love you know,
one thing she said about self care and understanding what
that means, and I think those of us who have
done this work or experienced this and who are survivors
as well, like we just don't think about that, and
we feel like every minute that we don't spend doing

(18:53):
this is you know, one minute more that we're going
to have to endure it later. But actually I'm member.
In two thousand two, before I moved to Afghanistan, somebody
said to me, if you get to the point where
you know you need a break, you've already gone too far.
And I ignored that for about two decades, but you know,
it's still kind of haunts me because I understand that
what that means that we really have to look after

(19:15):
ourselves otherwise we're not going to be good for anyone else.
And if we are dedicating our lives the service of others,
you need to look after yourself as well. M Yeah,
I love everything that you're both saying. Gabrielle, what you're
talking about in calling folks like solange superheroes is something
that we've been hearing across the board with the essential
workers that we've had the honor of speaking with this season.

(19:37):
So it's beautiful that folks are starting to be understood
in their full humanity for the work that they're doing
and how they're supporting their communities. And something you mentioned,
Lena is that you've been doing this work in many countries,
not just in the US, for decades. And we know
that you've spoken in the past about the increase in
sexual violence after natural disasters, and although COVID isn't a

(19:57):
natural disaster, it's become humanitarian crisis. So could you tell
us a bit more about the impact of COVID on
survivors and also the impact of lockdowns on intimate partner
violence at home. Well, what it's done, first of all,
is amplify any existing forms of violence, intimate partner violence,
sexual violence. Everything that existed before has gotten much worse,

(20:21):
and we should back out a little bit. It's important
to note that this is everywhere, all the time. COVID
or not, disaster, conflict or not rich for race, whatever
doesn't matter. Everyone everywhere. The danger that we face is
that we other it quite often we say, well, that's
not me or here, or us or whatever, but it is.
It's all of us. And the statistic is really disturbing.

(20:42):
It's one in three women and girls worldwide are going
to experience some form of violence. And that's just what
we know. And that's in the so called normal times.
So let's bring in a COVID or a disaster or
a war or you know what's happening and you're praying
or whatever, you pick your crisis. Everything that happens is
going to get much worse, and then new forms are
going to be created. So we know that intimate partner violence,

(21:04):
where it existed before, was much worse. You're locked in
with the abuser, and new forms are created as well,
so new cases of abuse merged, and women and girls
are always the ones that are vulnerable before any crisis,
and that vulnerability is just magnified. I mean, looking at
things that were happening internationally like that you might not
even connect, like child marriage that exists everywhere, that even

(21:26):
happens in the States. Actually there are I think it's
about fifteen million girls married every year that are under
the age of eighteen. Fifteen million, and this is all
pre COVID stuff. This is what I call so called
normal times, even though there's no such thing as normal,
and this is not normal. And that's like marriages of
girls a day. Now, bring COVID in, and we're going

(21:49):
to have an additional ten million girl child marriages because
families have to offload the economic burden. They have to
sell off their girls and might not be able to
afford to feed them, keep them, school them, et cetera.
So we're talking about ten million additional girl child marriages.
Something like female genital mutilation has also increased several million.

(22:14):
All of these things that happened to women and girls
anyway have now gotten that much worse. And then resources
are reduced. So resources that we'd used for shelters or
safe spaces, services support, whatever it is, hotlines, healthcare, name it,
all of that stuff had to be redirected to COVID.
And granted, COVID was an emergency still in many ways,

(22:35):
and the resources are already so scarce. So these are
the programs that tend to be the least resourced even
in the good times. They're the ones where funding is
stripped first and funding is revived last. Same for women's
employment or any kind of source of survival or financial independence,
all of that stuff. Then you see things like transactional

(22:56):
sex increasing sex for work, sex for foods, that for rent.
All of this is about survival and safety. So everything
that is a bad situation, even throughout COVID, has just
gotten that much worse. It's been really sobering to hear

(23:17):
all these stories, and specifically, you know, understanding where we've
been in the topic and in the conversation. I came
from Venezuela and they have a major issue with trafficking
of women, and specifically in Colombia, and after the Venezuela
national and political and economical disaster, and everyone had to
pretty much flee Venezuela, doctors and teachers, I mean, they

(23:37):
had no other alternative but to go to prostitution to
feed their children. It was a catastrophe for so many
women who have made careers and professionals, and they came
to appointing economically that they just really couldn't thrive anymore,
you know, And I wanted to put it a little
bit to Gabrielle. You know, you have been an advocate
for survivors for decades. I mean, I've known of your
work ever since I've known you and followed your career

(23:59):
in friends, and you were there before it was actually
even to me to a movement. Can you tell us
a bit more about your approach to that war's so
neat to be done. I know it's a pretty loaded question,
but I think in your comprehension and your experience with it,
i'd love to see what light you have to that. Yeah,
I think my journey towards the work was probably a

(24:20):
little atypical. I was raped in a community that was
predominantly white. So even though you're not supposed to print
the name or any identifying markers of a rape survivor
when you're the black person, like for miles around, there
were only so many nineteen year old black girl victim
from Pleasington, you know, the town that I grew up

(24:41):
in northern California. Everyone knew it was me, So I
didn't have the luxury of deciding when or how or
if I was going to tell the story. So once
it was sort of out there, it opened this door
that I had no control over. But all of a
sudden I was inundated with folks saying this had happened
to them, as well, and that kind of carried on.

(25:03):
So the first time I spoke about it publicly, I
was doing a show called City of Angels, where the
storyline there was a character that was raping the women
who worked in the hospital, and each week I'd get
my script terrified that I would be next. And there
was no way I could emotionally, physically, spiritually survives re
enacting that. It was too close to my rate, and

(25:23):
so I had to go to the producers and I
was like, I'm a rape survivor, and I am so
uncomfortable with this. Can you know, is there anything you
can do? And you know, super super lucky in the
sense that they were like, oh my gosh, we're gonna
we'll pivot you. This will not happen to you. And
right around the same time, I got off with my
first cover and in the cover interview and these are
like tentacles of your career, Like my first cover, I

(25:44):
made it, and they were asking dumb questions, and I
took that moment to say, I have important things to
talk about, and if I'm going to have this microphone
shoved in my face, I want to talk about things
that can maybe save other people. And it was the
first time I spoke about being a rape survivor that
opened up the floodgates. So I think at nineteen that

(26:06):
door that got cracked and all those people that came through,
this is like beyond anything I could imagine. To this day,
it's been this year, will be thirty years, and it
feels like it's been six months. And so the work
has because I have been very public about my journey.
People come no matter where I am, what else is happening,
they come. And I remember using in that cover article

(26:29):
the phrase me too, and how many people had come
up to me since speaking about it who had said, Hey,
me too. It happened to me too, And so it
was just a phrase that I had used a lot,
but that led to doing the work, you know, So
whether that being on President Obama's a National Advisory Committee
against Violence against Women and Children, or working with a

(26:52):
number of grassroots organizations around the world, the work comes
because I have been open about it. And you know,
there's times of listening to Lena talk about you know, globally,
you know, of course we all know, well hopefully we
all know on this call, rape is the most underreported
crime in the world. As stark as as our statistics are.
That's being grossly underreported. Right. So I go to Ghana

(27:15):
to dedicate the first breast health hospital in the country,
and they're on behalf of a breast health organization, and
I'm supposed to be talking about breast cancer and breast
health and getting exams, and because we also were dedicating
one of the only state of the art medical facilities,
very quickly shot beyond treating women with cancer. And I
was called upon in these medical conferences that are about

(27:37):
cancer to talk about the other cancer, which is sexual
violence that occurs around the world. So does it really
matter for me what work I'm doing. I could be
doing a show where I'm just fighting aliens and people
be like, let's talk, and I don't mind. And it's
interesting is every time I speak openly, no matter how
many organizations I'm involved with, because people consider me normal

(28:00):
or well adjusted, or successful, or my party or there's
a trail of penises that I have chosen for myself
in my way, Um, people have decided that it couldn't
have happened to me because I'm too normal and too
you know, open to talk about sex freely. I'm too
you know whatever, I don't look like a victim. So

(28:21):
it's like every couple of years I have to reintroduce
myself as a sexual assault survivor and then you watch
the there's no way. There's no way because I don't
fit the type. So again, most of my work happens
in public restrooms, at the airport, at an amusement part
on sets in my d M s. It just it

(28:42):
doesn't stop. And I will say, during the pandemic, just
like Lena spoke to the number of people who are
suffering and hurting and have been brutalized, I'd say quadrupled,
But I don't think that's a big enough number. It's
just has increased beyond anything that I think any of
us could ever imagine. But I think for a lot
of folks out there, I don't think they have any

(29:03):
idea how prevalent the crisis of sexual violence is. I'm wondering, Lena.
I'm just seeing you kind of shading your head. Obviously
I have my own reactions, but I'm wondering, Lena, if
you have anything that you'd like to add, can't brill
That's amazing that you use your voice and your platform
and your brand and your work and your and your
face and your presence and all of that for this.
I think it's so courageous and I love that you

(29:25):
and so many others are able to do it. And
I think, you know, normalizing this conversation because this is
so incredibly normal. What you said, Actually it was like
a punch in the gut, like people don't see you
that you don't think you look like a victim? You know,
what does a victim look like? Like? Every single woman
I know, myself included, has a story. All of us
are victims, you know, and I feel like there's this

(29:46):
kind of fetishizing of the story and of the experience
and of wanting to know, you know, when I'm working internationally, especially,
like journalists will come and say, we'll tell us a
story of a rape victim, and how many women, how
many girls have been Well, you know, how many do
you need? Like how many? What's your magic number? How
how many's gonna make a difference to you? You know,
And that donors do the same. They're like, okay, well

(30:07):
we're not going to give you money for you know,
this project on sexual violence. And so you tell us him, well,
what do you want a hundred, what a thousand, Like,
if there's a number for you that is going to
make a difference, I assure you we've got that number
and more, because, first of all, we know that it's
dramatically under reported, all of these women and girls. I mean,
there is no way you know, even in this country
and much as any other, but there is a lot

(30:28):
of incentive to report when there's no support and services,
and the justice sector fails women a police, you know,
and on and on. I mean, the things that we know.
So you know, what number, how many is enough? You know,
even one is one too many? Right, That's what we
should be saying. And everybody is a victim, you know,
and as long as this exists, as long as this continues,
we're all victims, whether we experience it ourselves or not.

(30:51):
I mean, the idea that even the fear of this,
you know, living in a female body, even the fear
of this is a form of violence. Right, how many
times you have to say, like call me when you
get home, or you know, don't walk in this door
parking lot, or you know, hold your keys, being your
fingers like that, I'm gazy to poke somebody's out, Like
what kind of life is that you're curbing your freedom
and your mobility, and you're restricting your You're living so

(31:11):
small because of this risk that you feel like you
would take and if anything happens you will then it's
your fault and on and on. I mean, the way
that we deal with this is just so flawed on
so many levels. And I think, you know, to go
back to what I started with, which was applauding your courage,
that the more people talk about it and normalize it
and see what we all look like and what work

(31:32):
needs to be done. The more conversations we have are
on this, the less we're going to be experiencing it,
is what I think, is what I hope. Yeah, thank
you so much for sharing that with us, Lena. I mean,
it's bananas hearing you say, like, how many folks need
to be affected by this before it starts to matter
on a large scale, Because you're right, it should just

(31:53):
be one person for it to matter. And obviously we
would hope that we get to a world where it's
not affecting anybody. But that leads into a question that
I have for you, Gabrielle, because we know that you're
working on lots of initiatives to combat what Lena was
just discussing, such as the we as Ourselves campaign, and
I'm wondering if you can talk about what that is

(32:14):
and the disproportionate impact of sexual violence on black and
brown communities. Oh my gosh. So much of everything that
I'm working on across the board is about centering the
most marginalized of us. So, whether that's in Hollywood with
the production company, whether that's with any of the initiatives
that I'm working on, whether that's just meeting people in

(32:36):
the street and having will on the go conversations. I
try to center the most marginalized of us when I
think about solutions and when I think about whose story
gets to go first. Because we work in Hollywood, we
see who gets to the microphone first and always and
gets to talk the longest, and it's rarely people of color.
It's rarely people of color in the l g B

(32:58):
t q I A community. It's early people of color
in the lgb c q I A community from a
lower socio economic group status. There are so many things
that we have to combat, but if you center the
needs of the most marginalized, no matter what you do
across the board, you start there, it tends to cover everyone. Right,

(33:18):
So if we center black trans women who are experiencing,
you know, being unhoused food scarcity, if we center their
needs and their stories and their narratives, we have a
better chance of covering everyone. Now, if you look at
using an example that a lot of people seem to
be more familiar with, like a Harvey Weinstein, right as

(33:39):
the parade of women, the endless Parade of women starts
coming out, he didn't call bullshit and tell a black
woman Lupida accused him. And this is a similar thing
that we see in our communities over and over and
over again. No no matter how similar our story, no
matter how it might pull on someone's heart string, the

(34:01):
second you factor in race was the second you hit
all of those intersections people lee in the hell out
and her story and this is Lupida oscar winning. Lupeta
died on the vine, samahiak Wait, I have something to say.
Married to one of the most powerful, wealthy men in
the world. Latina story dies in the vine, you know

(34:22):
what I mean? So when Lena's talking about how many
how many? What is the number? Before you understand that
even if it's your faith might not have the look
of a rapist or in a sexual abuser. Yeah, it's
going down across the board. And if we've reached for
the people who have no voice, who have no resources,
whose stories don't make the nightly news when they go missing,

(34:44):
that is where that is what this work does is
center the needs of the most marginalized in this particular
movement talking about sexual violence, but also in all of
the things that I do. That's just how it has
to go. When you sign up for me, you sign
up for all the marginalized folks. And used to just
be like, Okay, I gotta focus on black folks, and
then I realized, Okay, I am one of several people

(35:06):
of color who have this kind of platform and who
get this kind of attention. I can't just speak for,
you know, black folks. I can't speak for the trans
woman in my own life who lives in my home.
I have to use this time to speak for Latinos
and latinas and and my Asian brothers and sisters, and
my Muslim brothers and sisters, and every marginal ADVERSI across

(35:26):
across the globe. So when people say, well, what is
it gonna take ship a lot. All of the systems
that we have completely bought into, i e. White supremacy
and anti blackness, all of these things factor into how
we respond to different rape survivors, rape victims. There's so
many initiatives, I mean, and there's things that I again,
like in the breast health movement. We do all these

(35:48):
initiatives for breast health or diabetes, doesn't really matter. It
always comes back to this. You can't get around it.
So whoever else is out there, no matter what you're
volunteering for what, no matter what your interests are, understand
that sexual violence permeates every every industry, every part of society,
every culture, every community. But centering the needs of the

(36:13):
most marginalized, to me, is a more effective way to
combat it all. Yeah, beautiful, I'm so happy you share
that because you wear two hats right, you are yourself right,
You're going through your own personal journey as you heal,
and then you take on the stories and the world
around you that comes with the community as well. And

(36:33):
it's so important to take care of yourself. I mean,
I would say, humbly speaking, I put my my heart
in so many different communities and advocate for so many
different types of journeys, you know, whether it was the
armed forces and pusher my distress, whether it's the immigrant community,
you know, whether it's the families grinding the border. You know,
there was just so much about each one of their
stories that was just a movie that was exhausting, you know,

(36:57):
and that I couldn't even believe they were living in
and somehow I was feeling what they were feeling. And
You're right, it's exhausting and it's tough, and I think
it's important that you find out a groove for that.
And I think about all those communities, and this question
well be for both of you. What are some of
the things that individuals can do in their immediate circle
to support survivors, And if themselves are survivors, what other

(37:21):
resources can folks lean on? Maybe an interesting comprehensive way
to think about the first step or the first phase.
I think the first thing you have to become a
very good listener. I think a lot of us listen
to react or you're devising a plan as you're listening
versus just listening, and you have to check yourself every

(37:41):
time you're like, let me interrupt, I think, am I
interrupting for myself or is this somehow am I helping?
Usually it's like I just want to get a spicy
hot take off, or I want to say something, or
it's not what you're here for. You're here to listen,
and you have to be an active listener. Don't listen
to react. Just listen, and then, as friends, as allies,

(38:02):
believe people when they're talking, don't ask what did you
have on? These are questions that I actually got at
nineteen when I was raped at gun? What do you
have on? What did you do? What do you think
you could have done differently? I don't know. It's evil,
it's evil. I don't know. There there's no good way
of responding to evil. I did what I did to survive.

(38:24):
You know, don't compare anyone's journey their experience to anyone else's.
No to rape victims or survivors are alike. Every story
is unique and very personal. Remember that you should be
a vault. Whatever goes into your ears should never come
out your mouth to anyone else. It's not your story

(38:44):
to tell. And then ask, perhaps maybe at the end,
what the survivor victim wants to do, and how you
might be of service. But you probably have been of
service if you zipped it, didn't say any crazy things
and you just listened. That is the first thing. You know,
a lot of us want to go little, okay, let's
go to the police. Well, well, hold on, hold on,

(39:06):
let's let's pump the brakes, because for a lot of
communities of color, the police don't feel like a viable option.
It feels like being traumatized again, you know, going to
get a rape kit again. There is no one way
to get from victims to survivor, there is no one
way to heal. There is no one way to exist
in this space. So you have to ask, don't ever

(39:27):
take it upon yourself, as we call it in our community,
talking out of school. This is not your thing. You
have to listen and then you ask how can I
be of service? And if they share something with you,
that is always between you and the person sharing it.
You can't make people's personal business conversation starters. And this

(39:49):
happens so much when you talk to junior high high
school kids. I mean mainly a lot of it is
just a lack of maturity and experience and not really
knowing what to do. But every thing is to post.
Everything is a spicy hot take. Everything is meant to
then be weaponized against someone, and that is not our job.

(40:09):
That is not our job. Some starters I think. I mean,
that's beautiful, thank you for that. That's amazing, Lena, what
about you? Um, But yeah, that sums it up. But
I have to say that I learned recently and I'm
surprised that even after twenty five years of doing this
work and experiences I've had, that I still there's so
much that I need to learn about this as well.

(40:29):
The difference between self care and self soothing. You know,
we talk a lot about self care and maybe it's
like kind of instagram me or whatever, and you can
get a massage and send a bubble that have a
bless of wine to you, or take yourself to Jamaica,
you know whatever. Like self care, there's something trendy about
it and it appears to be there's a tick boxy
thing to it. It's but it's also kind of elusive.

(40:50):
But for me, I was like, well, self care, I
gotta book the massage. I've got it. You know, that's
like three weeks out. Nobody has any time for me,
And I understood really very recently that idea of self
soothing is really effective for me in the micro moments
to kind of talk myself off the ledge as as
it were, just to like breathe deeply, step back, put
it away, close my eyes, turn the other way, you know,

(41:13):
do whatever takes. Curl up next to my dog, you know,
switch on the TV and watch them. Do whatever you
need to do that you can do at a moment's
notice that you have at your disposal, your little arsenal
for lack of better word. So for me on a
personal level, that's really the self soothing techniques that I
try and apply before, you know, that emotional kind of hyperventilating,

(41:33):
like or the work gets to be too much, or
all this stuff is too frustrating. It's impossible to not
be emotionally involved. Like I keep telling people, if you're
not angry about this your sleep, I understand how you
can't be. So, you know, from that perspective, like, are
enough people angry? You know? I don't. I don't know.
I don't think so. I mean, I think there is
a missing element of really understanding how pervasive this all is,

(41:56):
that these forms of violence, how they affect all of us,
what they do to individ rules and families and societies
and communities and countries. I mean, we keep saying, like
research shows globally that the best predictor of peace, of prosperity,
of progress in a country isn't about the government, isn't
about the health of the economy. It's really about equality,
you know, it's about how you treat your women actually,

(42:17):
because that tends to become the most marginalized parts of
the community. I mean, there is your indicator. Everybody deserves dignity, equality, respect, rights,
bodily autonomy, safety and security. These are basics and we're
all going to be better off if we understand that.
So you know, I would say to other people, and
I say very often like, understand the magnitude of the problem.

(42:40):
So listen, I love that. Don't respond with you know,
why didn't you leave him? Or whatever types of stuff
that we hear far too often still in this day
and age. I can't believe. But then also understand that
you might be a resource and a lifeline for somebody
if they've turned to you and they've told you this,
you know, at least say the right things. If you're
asked to ask what it is you can do and

(43:02):
know that there are services and support available and if
you try and win to those, if that is what
this individual wants of you, We'll be right back after
this break. Welcome back to Essential Voices. First of all,
I'm so incredibly inspired by both of you, your work, bravery,
and most importantly your commitment, your commitment to continue to

(43:24):
show up, to continue to relive not just your story,
but the stories of the ones that you take on.
And I'm just so proud of your work, lean know what,
and honored and Gabby, I'm so proud of you as
your friend and as a brother. And I just went
off for a quickly to space for all of you.
You know, as we look forward, what are some of
the community based solutions for preventing sexual violence? And also

(43:45):
maybe how can we support the efforts and the work
that you're doing. Tell us how we can follow along
and how can we multiply you know, your efforts out there.
It's just keep talking about it, keep talking about it
so it never feels brand new, it never feels like
what you know. Can't imagine it normalize using words like
rape and sexual assault. These are not inflammatory words that

(44:07):
you know a lot of times you say rape, and
people like no, make it normal. Because it is such
a part of our society, we have to talk about
it like it is like we talk about hurricanes during
hurricane season. So imagine rape the season if you will.
I'm using my finger quotes here for the listeners at home.
The season never ends for rape. So you have to

(44:28):
constantly be talking about it. So as we're raising these kids,
we have to be having these conversations. I've got two
twenty year old stepsons and having the enthusiastic consent conversation.
I will admit super for it. Definitely didn't have this
conversation growing up. But this is where we're at, and
you have to have the conversation. You've got to go
point by point. You have to imagine what the scenarios

(44:48):
are looking like, and you have to give them the language.
You have to give them the plan of what enthusiastic
consent looks like, sounds like, what are these conversations like,
and also give them an example of what we're coersive
language and tactics look like that are the opposite of consent.
We just have to be brutally honest call using a thing,
be very clear that it doesn't matter how someone looks.

(45:10):
A lot of folks think that if you're an attractive
man that you couldn't possibly be capable of rape or
sexual violence, or if you are a larger woman or
a larger man. Like we have these ideas about who
can be raped, who can be a rapist. Throw all
of that out the window. There is no look, there

(45:31):
is no rhyme, there is no reason it can be
someone in your family. It could be a stranger literally
hopping out of the bushes. But you cannot predict a
look or a type. But we do know how to
prepare ourselves and our children to have honest conversations about
consent and about how to be good allies and if
it happens to you, what to do. Absolutely, I love

(46:13):
this idea of enthusiastic consent. I think that's a great
word to add. But I would say, you know, it's
not too late for our generation. But really, let's start young.
Let's start really really, Let's start with your daughter. She's one,
you know. Let's start talking about consent and my body
and saying no, and let's normalize all of those conversations.
Let's talk about bodily autonomy and use the proper names

(46:35):
for private parts, and let's not have secrets, and let's
talk about what is safe and unsafe touching. Let us
have those conversations at home in schools. Let's have basic
universal sex ed Let's have full sexual and reproductive health
and rights seen as rights for everyone. I mean, here
we are again in the US, fighting for our rights
to decide what to do with our bodies and our

(46:57):
lives again, again and again. I mean we are in
year forty nine of ROVERSUS wave and it could be
the last year. You know, are do we have rights
to decide what happens to our own bodies and this
has to be from the fetus to the funeral. You know,
it's your body from day zero, and we really need
to see it that way, you know, And what can
we all do? People ask me all the time, and

(47:19):
they're like, well, you know, you went to Aga. Understand,
you went to Congo and you went to Central African
Republic in places people can't find on the map, right,
And they were like, well, I don't want to do
you know, I'm not gonna do that. I don't want
to do it that way. And I said that's okay,
because actually this is everywhere, all around you. It's it's
right in your home, it's on your street, it's in
your school, it's it's absolutely everywhere. And a couple of
years ago I did a TED talk and the theme

(47:41):
amount was start where you stand, meaning that if you
just stand up, look around you and see what's going on,
you'll never unsee it, and you can take action right
there in your home, with your friends, with your peer group,
whatever you've got at your disposal, in your little circle
unique you can make change there. And if everybody took

(48:01):
responsibility for their own little circles, you know they're all
gonna connect. That kind of behavior. Behavior is contagious, So
make it good behavior. You know, everybody link up and
start changing the way that we deal with these things.
Change the narrative, you know, turn to your friends, your budies, whatever,
and say you know what, No, that's you can't that's
not cool. You can't say that, don't do that, that's
not right. Stop things when you hear them. Start where

(48:25):
you stand, wherever you are, And I think that's what's
going to really make a difference. So at least understand that,
you know, we need to help each other here, We
need to know what's going on, and we need to
support each other through it. And this is never about
other people. It's about It's about you and me. If
we're you know here we are, It's about all of us.
And I just for me, it's just not something that

(48:45):
I'm willing to tolerate in my lifetime, and I certainly
don't want to hand this on to the next generation.
I'd like us to fix it. If there's been one
thing we've learned from all of our conversations and Essential
Voice says, is that there's been no universal pandemic experience.
Today's conversation with Garrielle and Lena was a reminder that

(49:07):
for many folks, staying at home didn't mean staying safe
the way we've come to understand the meaning of that
phrase as a father. That really resonated with me, and
I'm glad we're opening up these conversations. I know that
I'll be thinking about today's conversation and all the ways
we can continue to help for a long time coming
next week, we'll be back for a conversation when Andres

(49:29):
al Mada, a waiter and graduated student from New York City. Well,
then follow that conversation with a roundtable with chef and
owner of Koge Barbecue, Roy Choi, and one for wag
to advocate Saru Dior ramin Essential Voices with Wilmer val Drama.
It's produced by me m R Raquel, Alison Shano, and
Kevin Rodkowski, with production support from Associate producer Willian Holman.

(49:53):
Executive producers Wilmer Val Drama, Adam Reynolds, Leo Clem and
Aaron Hilliard. This episode was edited by m R. Riquel,
Sean Tracy and Justin Cho and features original music by
Will Risotti. Special thanks to this week's Essential Voice, Solange
Rumcassoon and to our thought leaders Gabrielle Union and Lena Aberafi.

(50:15):
Additional thanks to Laurence Smith, Chelsea Thomas and Abigail Bickle.
This is a Clamor and w V Entertainment production in
partnership with I Heart Radio's Michael Dura podcast Network. For
more podcasts from my Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.