Blockbuster Musicals with Jon M. Chu + Myron Kerstein of Wicked

Zach and Donald welcome the director and editor of Wicked, Jon M. Chu and Myron Kerstein to the show. We try to get more information on Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat, what it was like listening to Cynthia Erivo sing, and how Ariana Grande nailed the comedy for the Popular scene. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm just gonna say it. Go ahead, how did this happen?

Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm very excited. I think a Zach made it happen.
Zach's a dream maker.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
Listen, for any of you out there, this is like
the freaking Avengers Infinity Saga of Guests when it comes
to musical theater. Yeah, this is someone who made it
so that when you go to the movies as a straight,
heterosexual male, nobody's gonna question you for wearing green skin,

(00:38):
green paint.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
A hat and a dress. Nobody's gonna question you.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
This is more about how you saw this movie. But okay,
this is the.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
Man that made it okay for anyone in the audience
before Cynthia Arriba goes to you know, when it reaches
crushindo as they call it in musical theater, climax. Climax
allows anyone in the audience to go.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Oh my god. I had to turn down my headphones. Sorry, audience.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
This revolutionized theater for musical movie theater theater for twenty
twenty four, twenty twenty five.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, it's quite a movie and it's a good get.
We're also going to be joined audience by Myron Kirstine,
who was nominated for an Academy Award for editing Wicked.
He's the reason we got to John was because Myron
has cut most of my movies. He cut Garden State,
he cut I Wish I was here. He cut a

(01:47):
movie I made called Going in Style. So we've been
friends a very long time and his career has been
on the up and up and up. And this is
second Oscar nomination.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
He's going to get. He's going to get nominated again.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
When nominated for Out the the Andrew Garfield musical that
I loved? What was that called? Joel Netflix One?

Speaker 3 (02:15):
No, the one that got nominated for in the movie theater.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Lin Manuel directed it like Boom something or Tic Tic
Boom Boom. I love that movie.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
It's a great one.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
Did Lin Manuel get nominated for directing that movie, Bardie Chance?

Speaker 2 (02:31):
I don't know, but I bet you Joel Monique could
look at it.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Should have.

Speaker 4 (02:35):
It was a Netflix movie. I like, Yeah, Tictic One
was a Netflix movie. The director Violin.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
For Netflix movies. Now that's right, I forgot about that.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
I love that movie. By the way, can we digress
for a moment. Are y'all watching this new Netflix show
called adolescentscence.

Speaker 4 (02:58):
Adolescents see the first episode, but wow, Donald, it's every
episode is a wonner.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
And I'm not talking to wonner with fake wipes. I'm
talking like they choreographed the most insane wonners. And you
get to the end of the episode and you're like,
I cannot believe there has not been a cut They've
been Episode two takes place all around this whole school
with like hundreds of kids, and they're here, and then

(03:29):
they're there, and then there's a fire drill, and then
they're chasing one kid and they get them down. And
then at the end of the episode. Sorry this is
not a spoiler, maybe it is, but at the end
of the episode, the fucking camera takes flight. They clipped
it onto a drone and it flies to another location
and lands.

Speaker 1 (03:46):
It's fun gonna put it out there.

Speaker 3 (03:48):
I truly believe that in some ways this can be
construed as a wonner. But there's no way that they
can risk that much money and get to like the
last five minutes.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Of the show.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
There's somebody go, fuck, what's my line, and them have
to be like, all right, we're taking it from the top.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
That's what they what they did i'dy, I'm trying to
there's you can watch the behind the scenes shit on YouTube.
I I I I'm trying to watch them because as
a filmmaker, I'm so obsessed with how they executed this.
But also I don't want any spoilers because I'm only
I'm only two episodes in out of four. But it's

(04:27):
it's the I mean, they just rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed,
and they it was like rehearsing a play, except then
they started folding in the camera and it's like the
cameraman's like a like a dancer who basically I mean,
at moments he's just going around and then at moments
I saw from the behind the scenes he likes getting
on it. He like steps onto a golf cart, and
then the golf cart takes it a tracking shot and

(04:48):
then I mean the pilot.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
It's all done on steady cam.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Obviously, no it's not steady kim, it's a it's a gimbal.
It's a handheld gimbal. But it's I mean, first of all,
the the the technical production aspects of it are one thing,
but also it's brilliantly acted and it's the number one
show on Netflix. I really really recommend it to everybody.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
Amazing.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
How's everybody doing when we haven't been together and so long?
I miss y'all.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
You've been working, man, You've been working up a storm.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
I've been directing Han Solo.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
I don't know if he likes people calling him that.
I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm gonna be honest
with you. If I said if I met him, and
I was like, I mean, I haven't met him, but
if when I saw him, I was like, holy shit,
Han Solo, he'd be like, I will never.

Speaker 2 (05:34):
Be You wouldn't like that from you.

Speaker 3 (05:35):
No, I don't think he likes that from you. I've
been directing Hans Solo.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, I don't say I wouldn't say that to Han,
but if him. Sometimes I call him, I'll say something like, okay,
mister Ford, you're standing here, and he goes, mister Ford's
my father.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
I love it. I love that Harrison Ford is still like,
I'm a young man you call me.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
That's at the moment, like there was this moment where
something was broken on the set, like a piece of
molding or something, and he the grips are trying to
put back in place. He goes, let me do it
and starts kicking it. He goes, I was a carpenter.

Speaker 5 (06:18):
That's a duful.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
He's like one of the most famous.

Speaker 3 (06:23):
He's like one of the fam most famous former carpenters
in the history of.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Cars and Jesus, one of the most famous.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
Did you know that Hans Solo was a carpenter before
he became Han Solo.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
That's the that's the thing. Harrison Ford was a carpenter.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
He was actually laying freaking uh uh it sighting in
the in the in the office when he was asked
to audition every human being on the planet is like, yo,
maybe I can Harrison port it someday him. Daniel day
lewis most famous shoemaker other than freaking John Madden.

Speaker 1 (06:59):
Freaking most famous.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
I say John maddocause John Maddon stole so many shoe
I did. But I'm not saying Daniel Dan. But my
point is, got it. All I gotta do is read
Daniel's face. Daniel's face is always the one.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah, well, Danield's a good read. I can't have question.
Daniel's a good read. For when you say something that
we don't know what you're talking about. Danil's face tells
us that we don't know what you're talking about. But
uh so anyway, Yeah, I've been directing Shrinking. It's so fun.
I just really like the cast. Everyone's so cool. It's
such a good show. Everybody who loves the show. You're
gonna be blown away by season three. It's really really good,

(07:34):
really fun.

Speaker 4 (07:35):
Did you get on the pit set? I know that
was a goal of yours.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
I did. I got a tour of the pit set.
You know, it's incredible because it's enormous. It's a huge,
huge set of an er And what they do is
they everything is controlled. They don't bring any in any
film lights. Everything is practical lighting within the hot spittal set.

(08:01):
And so the way they shoot the show, they choreograph
it and then they don't wait on almost every other
thing that's made. You then go and light it and
bring in lights on stands and flags and and and
all sorts of things to shape and cut the light.
But on this show they don't do that at all.

(08:22):
Everything is lit from the actual practical lights that are
built into the er set. So it's really cool. From
someone who's a geek of film production. It was a
cool thing to see.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
If you're the not the D I guess the DP,
how do you it's just camera setups, then that's it
it is.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
I think, like, yeah, every single thing. I'm sure they
have some lighting guys on in case they have to
adjust something, but everything's in the lighting board. So if
the if they want more light on the person, they'll
just bring up the dimmer on that little area, you know,
almost like a play. I think. Then they told me

(09:04):
they have a couple of little cheap tricks they do
where they can they can sort of snap something into
one of the ceiling lights and that and that will
bring light further down. There's all these little things, but
it's just really really incredible and what a great show
that is. If you're not watching the pit, that's just
fucking incredible.

Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah, that's that's I mean, my mind's going crazy right
now because all I can think of is that what
we're going to do when and if we do scrubs.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
I really hope so, by the way, Donald, because it
gives you so much more time to particularly the stuff
that's just hospital like if and scrubs, if when you
get into fantasies and all that stuff. Of course that's different,
but and specialty shots. But you know, with scrubs, the
camera is such a character, whereas this is where is
the pit. It's made to feel almost like a documentary.

(09:51):
But I got to tell you, when we're just doing
straight if and when it happens and we're just doing
straight hospital stuff, we'd have so much more time in
your day to not be waiting for all these these
lighting set up changes. So I would love to I
would love to convince whomever the DP is to do
it that way. I guess it would come from Bill.

(10:12):
Bill would just tire someone to say, do it that way.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
You took the tour on your own, or you you
and Bill went how to go?

Speaker 2 (10:18):
No, So.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
You know.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
Shrinking also has just incredible sets for those of you
who love the show. All of those interiors are sets there.
They have houses in the real world that are the exteriors,
but the office set, Liz's house, Jimmy's house, just Gabby's house.
All of the big interiors are all built huge sets

(10:44):
on stage. And the construction coordinator, sorry, there's an ambulance
some in New York City. The construction the head of
construction for Shrinking also did the pit and he was like,
someone told me you like the pit, go Yeah, man,
can I get a tour of the set because they're
not shooting right now, but the set is so massive
they left it up and he's like, of course, So

(11:06):
he arranged for me to get a whole tour, and
I thought it was just gonna be him, but he
brought like the art director, the production designer, and like,
they gave me this amazing walkthrough. They were so kind.
They gave me merch. They gave me fucking pit merch.
I got a pit ski hat. Whew.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
That's how you know you're on a hit show when
they're like, listen, we're just gonna keep the sets up
for the summer. We're gonna keep it up for the
whole year. We're gonna just rent out the stage. The
stage is ours, don't even worry about it. We're just
gonna leave it up. That's how you know you're coming
back next year.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
Well, some of these sets are just so I mean,
it's crazy. One of those shrinkings, big sets. They moved
stages and when you see this thing, you're like, I
can't believe the amount of work it must have taken
to fucking take this all down and put it back
up on a different soundstage. It's really really cool. There's
some great work happening on that show, really good stuff.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Can we get into a little bit of Star Wars.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, but let's keep it brief because we love all
those things, all of us love all those things.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
But but have you seen this? Is how long it's been.
Have you seen the trailer for and Or?

Speaker 6 (12:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (12:14):
No, are we not ready for this this? Have you
seen the most recent trailer for and Or? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (12:22):
Okay, it's delightful. I'm very excited. I was curious about
the pomp and circumstances of the first trailer where they
were like, all the critics love it, but I get
that they're trying to get people to see it. Disney
recently released I think all the episodes on YouTube, or
at the very least the pilot is available on YouTube.
They're like, please, for love of God, watchings in one

(12:42):
and come check out season two. So they believe in it.
I'm excited about it.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
This looks like it looks more Star Wars than anything
I've seen, and are really like, it looks like great,
it looks.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
Like it's a lot like they made the Empire strikes
back again.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
Dude, Like, that's what it looks like, at least that's
what it looks like to me, the color tone, all
of that stuff.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Are you excited about Thunderbolts?

Speaker 3 (13:08):
You know, I'm gonna be honest with you ahead and
being honest. I just right now Marvel is putting out
things that I'm I'm excited for Fantastic four. Let's put
it that way.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
We'll see, Okay, okay, Joel, Are you excited for Thunderbolts?

Speaker 4 (13:26):
I am. Here's why Marvel has had a bit of
a it's been rough over there. We can't lie, but
it's clear they believe in this film. It's clear that
Disney's trying to do some new stuff. They have a
wild wonky schedule for and or they were like, listen
a twenty four freaks, y'all have cinema, Come see this.
It's gonna be movies in a big way here. So
that makes me excited. Plus, you know, we got love

(13:48):
for Florence in this house. She's talented. There's a lot
of good names.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Up in there.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
So I'm really thought, I don't know if they did
it off of they cut that trailer there was basically like,
this is an eight four movie. And I thought that
was really clever. I don't know if you know, I
thought that was really good marketing because that kind of
went to viral.

Speaker 5 (14:10):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (14:11):
There's no way this movie is gonna is A twenty four.
This shit, and halfway through.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
When you do you see the trailer.

Speaker 3 (14:16):
I'm talking about absolutely halfway through the movie, everybody's going
to be like, holy shit, this is like more special
effects than any of this is a this is an
Avengers movie.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
This is an Avengers level.

Speaker 2 (14:28):
But I think that I think the level of marketing
was we didn't just hire I mean, I'm just I'm
just seeing what they're selling. And they're saying we hired
a lot of people from all of these A twenty
four movies that you love, and these are the people
executing this particular Marvel Meet. It might be a bit
different because it's been made by these people.

Speaker 3 (14:49):
I think that's a I think that's a bonus if
anything too.

Speaker 2 (14:52):
Yeah, so today that's why they're cutting trailers about.

Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, I'm gonna say and I will say this also,
I feel like, and this is me predicting the future.
I feel like this universe is dying, and that's why
the colors are starting to turn into this Also.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
I think we're going to I think we're going.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
To experience a new a new reality in the Marble
Cinematic Marble Universe to combine all of these characters within
the next five years.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
I think that's where this is going.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, let me tell you some underbolts. I think you
can bet on Florence Pew anytime.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
I will bet on her anytime. Anything.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
You're gonna buy stock, taking to buy stock, you could
buy stock in Florence, save Florence.

Speaker 1 (15:30):
Bet. That is a safe bet.

Speaker 2 (15:32):
When is this going to air? This episode too? Well,
because my event is coming up next Tuesday. And next Tuesday, okay, well,
my event for the midnight mission, which is a celebration
of the music from the Garden State soundtrack twenty years Later,
is coming up again March twenty ninth. Oh my goodness,
that's this weekend, buddy. That's not this weekend. That's next weekend. Please,

(15:55):
I got a lot to do. It's this weekend. It's
this weekend when people are and I wanted to I
wanted to make sure everyone knows that if you're unable
to come. We've partnered with the company called veeps dot
com v E E p s dot com and you

(16:17):
can buy the stream of the show starting April six,
which is my birthday. And thanks to our good pals
at T Mobile, every single cent of the money you
spend to buy the stream goes directly to the midnight mission,
which is really really cool, great time, because these things
all cost a lot of money, so to be able

(16:37):
to have T Mobile offset the production cost so that
every cent of you buying the stream from anywhere in
the world, anywhere in the world goes directly to the
midnight mission. So check it out. We're gonna have a
lot of special guests, including spoiler for you podcast listeners only,
Donald Fazon I will be there. You know who else

(17:01):
is going to be there. I'm going to spoil another
one for the podcast audience. Sarah Chalk.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, it's going down.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
I have a feeling there's gonna be a whole lot
of Scrubs people at this event.

Speaker 2 (17:15):
They are They're all coming, but only you two are
going to be on stage introducing a band with me.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
Is there going to be a teleprompter?

Speaker 2 (17:23):
There will be a teleprompter, but I'm also going to, uh.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Write your cuff. We could go off the cuff if
you want.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
Well, you know the bit we're gonna do. I'm going
to talk about how you said are there any black
people in this movie?

Speaker 1 (17:35):
Right? And then I'm gonna say, are there any black
people in this at this concert?

Speaker 2 (17:39):
No, don't do that.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Don't do that. No, you can't do that. Okay, damn No,
I don't think that goes that joke.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
That's why I don't want you going off the cuff.
That's why I don't That's why I don't want you
going off the cuff.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Bro.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
You're sticking to the script of all people that are
going to be on that stage. I need you to
be sticking to the prompt. Why because you go rogue
and say stupid ship?

Speaker 1 (18:04):
That's not stupid. It's a good question.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
Remember when Doja Cat left you hanging?

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Yeah, I do remember that. That was that was me
going rogue and doing some stupid ship.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
He's just trying to Doja Cat at some event and
he went to like do like a high five with
her and she didn't see him. She wasn't like being rude.
But then Donald left his hand up there and you
didn't know what to do with it. So then he
started high five in it himself.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
It was high five, dude, that's all I know. You
didn't I did yourself?

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Are you? And then you hit it? Yeah, don't even
try it.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
It was sometimes I think about that.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, that's called to the script.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
Yeah, that's sometimes I think about that in the shower
and I shiver. You don't, but cat left you hanging.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
I know you would shiver. I know you would shiver.

Speaker 3 (18:48):
If I said that ship about how many black people
are performing at your show, you'd be like, that'd be
twenty weeks later in the shower.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Oh god, I remember that.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
He's don't say anything that's going to make me shiver.
I don't like it when you go off script. I'm
gonna put your lines in the prompter in bold with
an underline Sarah. Sarah's gonna get a regular font. You're
gonna get bold and underlined.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
No, wait, is John here?

Speaker 2 (19:13):
He is?

Speaker 4 (19:13):
Yes, we have both guy, Myron Kirstine.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
Here both myn nervously. What are you nervously? Donald, don't
embarrass me.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
I'm not gonna embarrass you.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
I wish you had a teleprompter right now.

Speaker 1 (19:24):
First question, how do I get in your next.

Speaker 2 (19:27):
No, don't do that. I wish we guy, I wish
just start chill, okay, okay, Joelle, I wish we had
a teleprompter for Donald.

Speaker 4 (19:40):
On this fucking zoom Callanel's face, rely on Donald face, Daniel,
Donald wants channel's face.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
Five six seven eight.

Speaker 7 (19:54):
I'm not sure we made about a bunch of he said,
he's the stormy net so YadA here yeada.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Oh my god, yeah, let's gosh.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
I can't believe we did this.

Speaker 2 (20:22):
This is the best.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
Okay they are. Listen you guys. I've been I'm down
to be chill.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
I've been, I've been prompted to be chill and not
act crazy. But we have freaking cinema royalty, in my opinion,
in the motherfucking.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
You guys. Good to see you, Good to see you.
Welcome Myron and John. That's our engineer, Daniel and our
producer Joel. And I know you know there are a
lot of fans of the movie Wicked, but probably the
number one fan in the universe up there is Donald
Faison right there, who who has already sung some of

(21:02):
the songs for our audience before you've joined us.

Speaker 3 (21:05):
I said, I wouldn't do it when you're on the air.
I'm not going to embarrass myself. Listen, we need to
stop now. Just Zach proceed because.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
You just calm down.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Coming up, it's coming up.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
John, John, I'll be the more calm voice and say, uh,
Donald and I love musicals, and we that's one thing
we've shared in comments is the day we met. We
we You know, it's funny because he's into sports and
so many and Marvel and Star Wars and so many
things I'm not into. And but one thing we overlap

(21:39):
with is our just love of musicals. And we both,
from the bottom of my hearts, think you did the
most fantastic job with this.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
Both of you did. We I'm gonna get to Myron.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
I'm starting with John. Myron, I'm going to get to
but John, I just think you absolutely crushed it. I
loved it. It was my favorite Mooey of last year.

Speaker 8 (21:58):
Thank you.

Speaker 5 (21:58):
I appreciate that. Appreciate that. And it's been a long
time coming for all of us to be together. I mean,
I've heard stories of you for so long from Myron.
He's given me all the secrets of how you've done things.
So it's been perfect.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
I trained him, So for those of you who don't know,
I think I mentioned it briefly in the intro, but
Myron cut Garden State and he was really, you know,
just absolutely incredible editor, but particularly with music. I mean,
the reason so much of what worked in Garden State
with music was because of Myron and how he plays songs.

(22:34):
And I was just thinking the other day, Myron, and
how you know, I had always imagined that ecstasy party
scene to be to be like something like that, but
I just didn't know how the hell we're going to
execute it. I remember you came to set one day.
It was it was so long ago. I think he
may have even brought like a VHS tape and put
it in my trailer, in the in the in the
in the in the VHS player, and I just was

(22:54):
so floored. I was like, oh my god, I never
thought it was going to be as good as that.
So Myron, and from the very beginning of me meeting him,
it's been someone so gifted, uh with music and and heart.
So you guys are such a perfect marriage for each
other because this is like the epitome. I mean, a
movie cannot get bigger when it comes to music and
heart than what you guys made.

Speaker 5 (23:16):
Oh that's so nice, and you know, you know the
only reason, because we've got paired together.

Speaker 8 (23:20):
I never on Crazy Wit Jasions.

Speaker 5 (23:22):
I was looking for another editor and someone suggested him
and the one credit that brought him into my life
was Garden State Seeing. I mean, obviously that soundtrack was
became a part of my life. That movie became a
part of my life. I was like right in the
pocket of who you were speaking to in that and
so it was, it's been, it's been, and it awoke

(23:44):
me to two different artists and things like that. So
and how you can make a movie where music is
the power using the power of music, which is where
you were where it says so much more than what
words ever could. And it can be expressed cinematically, visually
in ways and in cuts in ways that no other

(24:05):
medium can do.

Speaker 8 (24:06):
So it was really it was.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
Music always a part of your life because you you you.
I'm sorry to ask. I know you've been on a
mega press tour and some of these questions you've been
asked a zillion time, So I promise I have some
original ones, but it's hard not to ask you as
someone who's so gifted? I mean you started with dance,
right with the Dance movie? Yeah, yeah, they step up
and then, but like, how was it always? Are you

(24:28):
a dancer? Do you dance at all?

Speaker 1 (24:30):
No?

Speaker 8 (24:30):
I mean I've taken dance when I was a kid.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
How did you get in? How did like, how did
like step up? Land? Like, how did you know you
were the right guy for that? Well?

Speaker 5 (24:39):
Well, I grew up in the Bay Area and I'm
the youngest of five kids, and my parents are immigrants
from China, and they wanted all us kids to be
as Americanized as possible so they could be the opposite
of what they came when they came here, because they
didn't speak a word of English. So they put us
in dance classes. I took tap for twelve years because

(25:01):
I had to be with my sisters basically when they
were taking it. I took drum, saxophone, violin, guitar. I'm
not good at any of these things, but I took it.
And every weekend my parents would take us to the
theater in San Francisco musical musical season, opera season, ballet season, like.
We would be there all the time. Of course, we'd
watch movies all the time. TV was always on our

(25:23):
on in our house, so it was just sort of
a part of me. And when I started actually working
with the camera and editing with my little VHS camera.
At that time, all my friends were dancers or musicians,
and so I was the guy with the camera, and
so that's where I was. I was sort of theater

(25:45):
kid adjacent. I was part of theater but not great
at it, but I could. I knew them well enough
that I could try to communicate what I knew from
the film side into what they.

Speaker 8 (25:56):
Wanted to say.

Speaker 5 (25:56):
And that's where it sort of all started. And first
step up that came to me, and I did not
want to do it because it was a direct to
DVD movie, and I called my mom. I was like,
I can't have my first movie be a direct to
DVD movie. I was discovered by Spielberg from my student
short like this is not right, and my mom's like,
when did you become a snob? I was like, if

(26:19):
you are a storyteller, you can tell a story in
any medium, in any way. You could be by a campfire,
you could be in a car, like prove yourself. And
I was like, you're right, I'm going to make the
best damn direct to DVD dance movie sequel of all time.

Speaker 8 (26:32):
And that's where it's all sort of started.

Speaker 2 (26:33):
And you did, right, and then they changed it to
not go directed to DVD. Right.

Speaker 5 (26:39):
Yeah, became a theatrical two weeks after I joined, and
I repitched it in a way that I thought a
dance movie should be. Instead of five numbers, I wanted thirteen.
And all these different Disney who distributed the first movie
came around, was like, hey, let's listen to your pitch.
And twenty minutes later they're like, we have a slot,
but it's in nine months. Can you get it done
in nine months?

Speaker 8 (26:57):
And we did.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
That's strung me off.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
Wow, So listen to your mom, listen to you.

Speaker 3 (27:03):
I know that a lot of the kids from that
movie went on to do several of the sequels too,
So yeah, like that and are very and I looked
at as high levels in the dance community. Also, do
you still use any of them when you're doing other projects?

Speaker 8 (27:17):
Yeah, I mean amazingly.

Speaker 5 (27:19):
One of our actors in it, Christopher Scott, is one
of the dancers in it. He plays his bit part.
He auditioned for us in Baltimore because that's where he's from.
He came back after shooting, and we all became friends
because we're all young, we're all our first movies, and
he would just hang out at the edit room. And
now he's the choreographer of Wicket, and he choreographed in
the Heights, and so I watched him transition from dancer

(27:41):
to choreographer. He watched how I pitched movies, and I
taught him how to use certain things and photoshop and
keynote and whatever, and he used those skills to get
his first choreography jobs.

Speaker 8 (27:52):
And so now we get.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
To it together.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Well, the choreography in this movie was just absolutely incredible.
I mean, what has it been with you? We have
so many questions for you, But how does it feel
when you watch these kids and all these videos of people,
you know, doing the choreography like it's meant This movie
has meant so much to people of so many different ages.
I mean, we're fifty years old and we're walking around
singing it, and then you've got the little kids walking around,

(28:18):
you know, doing the dance moves on TikTok. I mean
that just must be so gratifying for you, guys.

Speaker 8 (28:24):
That's the best. It's the best.

Speaker 5 (28:25):
And Mayron and I share, you know, we're texting each
other videos, TikTok videos back and forth of people doing it.
You know, we all, you know, especially as storyteller, if
we want our stories to be seen and to be
accepted and for them people to like dig in even deeper.

Speaker 8 (28:40):
And learn the choreography.

Speaker 5 (28:42):
I mean, that's how I learned watching all the Michael
Jackson videos and you know, recording it, recording MTV on
my VCR, just watching it over and over and over
against studying.

Speaker 8 (28:53):
Like to me, that's like that's the ultimate goal from it.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
So heat is so when you just if we can
just begin to break down, Well, first of all, I
just wanted to say, how did it come to Cynthia
and Ariana. I'm sure every woman of who's the right
age and can sing audition for you, both famous and
not famous. We can tell why you chose them, because

(29:18):
they're both absolutely brilliant. But what was that process?

Speaker 5 (29:21):
Like?

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Did you I read in my notes that you that
you initially thought you'd hire unknowns.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (29:28):
I thought Wicked was big enough that you could we
could actually like break somebody, and I was I didn't
want any anything, uh, sort of dictating how the movie
should feel or be because there's some big star or
the studio wanted that. And so when I came in,
it was very clear that studio knew that Wicked could
be big enough that we could do that, and so

(29:49):
that was sort of the staate, like whoever's best for this,
and and in my head it was like, well, we're
going to discover someone so Wicked is its own thing,
and of course you're getting We got inundated with calls
from everyone around town to come, and we said there's
no offers. Everyone has to come in and read, and
everyone starts at the same spot. And we saw a

(30:10):
lot of people and all really really good. I mean,
everyone prepared. Everyone was so amazing. But you know, there's
a moment where someone just takes it from your lap.
And we had been down the road of seeing a
lot and sort of debating. What we realized is, you know,
we had to get experienced people because these songs are
way more difficult than I thought they were. People come in,

(30:33):
their voices are breaking.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
They're double black diamond songs.

Speaker 8 (30:38):
Absolutely, you know, I have a funny memory.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Just to digress for a moment, I was reading in
New York at Bernie Telsey's casting office. I don't know
if Bernie cast this, didn't.

Speaker 8 (30:46):
He Bernie did.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
Yeah. And for those who don't know, Bernie Telsey is
by far the biggest Broadway casting directors, particularly musicals. He's
he's almost got a monopoly on Broadway musical casting. And
he's a brilliant guy. And I was auditioning. This was
many years ago, but I was auditioning for the production
of Angels in America. And next to me in the

(31:07):
next Versus studio, they were auditioning women to replace Alphaba.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
And to replace Nadel Nazine.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
No, not Adel. This was after Adele Deseine. I think
it may be in for a tour. I don't know.
I don't know the specifics. All they know is that
while I was waiting, they have gotten this down to
such a science that they really just have them come in.
And these girls were just women were walking in and
they were like basically like, oh, like, just can you

(31:40):
hit the fucking note or not? And then then we'll
talk to see if you can hit the note.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
And I don't get a ramp ump nothing, huh no
read it.

Speaker 2 (31:53):
It was basically it may have been like it may
have been like two bars before the note. I don't know,
but but it was brutal because they were just like next, next, next,
And I was shocked how many of these women walked
into this audition, like, you know, if you could hit
it or not, why why are you here?

Speaker 3 (32:13):
There's that one chance that God will bless me right
now at this moment.

Speaker 1 (32:17):
Yes it will come out exact.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yes I have never hit it before, but I will
hit it at Bernie Telsey's.

Speaker 5 (32:27):
Yeah, it was an intimidating lobby because you could hear
everybody going for it, and that would be any if
you're an actor walking in.

Speaker 8 (32:32):
And we did not just say you had to be
able to sing.

Speaker 5 (32:35):
I mean this is a movie, and so we needed
them to be able to act and the camera need
to be able to be two inches from their face
and then and give layers to this character and not
be imitation of what we've seen before, but something fresh
in news.

Speaker 8 (32:47):
There's a lot to ask.

Speaker 5 (32:50):
Of them, and there were people who were like, you
know what, don't even worry about the big notes. Just
go do what you can if it. If you fail,
it's all good. There's things we can do that can help.
And but but when those two ladies came in, it
was just like they had the full package.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
You know, it's it's.

Speaker 3 (33:07):
Timid hold up, but you know it's intimidating when Cynthia Rivo,
who is known for singing very well and killing it
and is known for being such a phenomenal actress, had
to walk into the audition with a blanket tied around
her neck and a damn and a damn broom.

Speaker 8 (33:24):
In the ninety nine cent store from.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
Anti store to freaking get a leg up on this audition.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Man. You know, it's really feel when somebody who is
a comment she is.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Would walk I would like to walk into audition rooms
with the confidence of Cynthia Revial walking into sing defying gravity,
because she must have been like, I got this.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
Well, we know when she walked in with a blanket
and a broom.

Speaker 5 (33:52):
Let me let me let me clarify that she it
was a I think that was like a jacket that
she had on earlier. She had taken that off because
we sang Wizard and I first, and she was singing
opposite another big actor and that actor was like.

Speaker 8 (34:05):
You know, she was like awestruck by Cynthia.

Speaker 5 (34:08):
She's like, you know, she just sang at a sold
out a Disney concert hall last night at like nine pm,
and she's here this morning. She's like, you know how
many people would pay for tickets to be sitting here
in this room right now to watch her sing defying gravity?
And so already you could feel that vibe. And she
sang wizard and I first. And when she sang those
first words, did that really just happen? She became a

(34:31):
little girl. She became not the Cynthia Rivo on the
big stage of the sold out show. She became a
dreamer in their dorm room. And I felt so connected
with that little girl singing, and then watched her grow
in that song to hit those final notes. It was
very clear, very quickly that she was our Alphaba.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
You must have been so excited. I mean, when I'm
auditioning people, you know, people think people don't know this,
but you're really quite nervous. You don't know if you're
going to find the person. You know, you're like, I
hope we find the person. And when she when she performed,
you must have been like, oh my god, we found
the person.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
Hold on, you mean you got how often is it
that directors and production settles and says, you know what,
we didn't find a person, but we've found somebody close
enough to just tell this story.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
How often does that happen? Hold on? This opens up
a new conversation for me.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
Well, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
How you feel, like, oh, I got the part, but
the possibility that I wasn't right for it.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
But they just settled because they could tell the story.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Now, I don't know if it's settling. It's we're out
of time and and and I for me, I might
can only speak for me, not John, but we're out
of time and this person is great. They might not
be exactly what I pictured, but maybe they'll be better
than I could have imagined. But we need to go
and we need to start now. That's you know what

(35:58):
John and Myron are engaged is something that's eighteen months
of pre production. So you certainly have a whole lot
more time to make sure you find the right person
for your gargantuan movie.

Speaker 8 (36:08):
But there's always but there's always a leap of faith.

Speaker 5 (36:10):
It's always there's always like a section that you're like, well,
I think that I have confidence they can get there
in these areas because they haven't dug into obviously the
text and all that stuff. So it's always just a
little bit of like, trust your instincts, Myron.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
How how often are you like, look, all right, it's good,
but I could fix it in post.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
Don't worry about it. I'll fix it. I can fix this.
Don't worry about it. I mean, you're like freaking Scotty.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
You're asking him to answer that in in front of you.

Speaker 6 (36:37):
Your daily is Donald, I'm always like, I could fix this.
I don't worry about it.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Right, you become Scotty.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
I'm giving you.

Speaker 6 (36:47):
Now what I What I love is that you know
every actor is bringing on the day and then I'm
there to be the next collaborator to bring my own
take to it, and everyone's going to do the best job.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
And and what.

Speaker 6 (37:01):
Was so nice about Wicked is that I was privy
to see some of these auditions, so it was very
it was it was a real gift to see John's process.
And then when you did see Cynthia and Ari step in,
You're like, oh my god, this this is on another level.
And you know, of course I think that you know

(37:23):
there's there's a different version of every movie that with
a different cast in there. But then when you actually
see it together and you're like, oh, this was inevitable,
this is exactly it was supposed to be.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Let's take a break.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
We'll be right back after these fine words. Did you
guys always plan to have it be to films? I
wanted to ask you that what was that? Was that
from the get go? Or because I'm so glad you did,
because it's so much movie the idea of trying to

(37:55):
cram that whole story into one, But but was that
always a plan?

Speaker 1 (37:59):
Well?

Speaker 5 (37:59):
When I came in, you know, they had been they
had been developing scripts, many scripts for the past I
don't know, twenty years before I ever came in, and
those scripts weren't ready, and the big question was can
you make this into one movie? And so when I
stepped in, the debate was already in progress. And for me,

(38:21):
it was like, if you are debating this, then you're
never going to make two great movies. You're always going
to be in between, and you might as well just
shove it all into one and that's a whatever four
and have five hour movie. Or if you're going to
get it into let's say you want to get into
a three hour movie that you're ripping out half the songs,

(38:44):
and then is that Wicked?

Speaker 8 (38:45):
And it became very clear it was.

Speaker 5 (38:47):
There's almost no question that in order to do Wicked properly,
you needed to break it up. And then we needed
to make that decision fast. Usually when you come in
as a director and something's been sort of half developed,
then you have about two weeks as the honeymoon period
you can do whatever you want. And so I knew
you have to make big, bold choices right from the beginning,
and that choice of I don't want We're not going
to debate this anymore two movies. Let's focus in to

(39:09):
make each movie the best singular movie we can and
every piece of architecture that we need to do in
this story in order to make that happen is what
we need to do, and that's what we need to
be focusing on.

Speaker 8 (39:20):
Of course, in the back of my mind, I'm always like, well,
we're going to shoot too.

Speaker 5 (39:23):
If it's better to be one movie, then we'll figure
that out later. But we had to make bold, very
specific choices, intentional choices from the very beginning. So that's
where it started.

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Can I say ask, just say something, yeah, something that
I really love.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
To raise your hand. It's your podcast you now.

Speaker 1 (39:38):
Sometimes you like to talk too.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
So what I really loved is that you didn't shy
away from the fantasy part of this story. And a
lot of people focus mainly on Okay, let's focus on
the music. Let's focus on let's focus on the dancing.
Usually when musicals are made, let's focus on that part.
And then the part that's always left out is either

(40:01):
the surrounding area, like how the story looks, or the
or the heart. And you tackled all of them at once,
and that was for me as a moviegoer. Like he
said earlier, I love Star Wars, I love Marvel, and
was great to see all of those genres but flipped

(40:23):
upside down with music coming through also, and you don't
really see you. You never see that, to be honest
with you, Even the biggest movie musical before this, it
didn't have it. I think what was it grease is
that the you know what I mean, it has numbers,
but it's relying on the dance, it's relying on the singing.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
And everything like that.

Speaker 3 (40:41):
You have great performances and musical numbers, but the movie
also hits fantasy dead on, and I really really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
As a fantasy lover, I really.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Appreciated that, and so that's one of the reasons why
this movie sticks with me so well. It's like I'm
going to see Star Wars, but I'm also getting a
nice show out of it too, a good song and
dance out of it too.

Speaker 5 (41:03):
That's great, I think because also, like I said, I'm
theater adjacent, a theater kid adjacent I'm not.

Speaker 8 (41:08):
I didn't come from theater, so.

Speaker 5 (41:10):
I am definitely of the film side, and yet I
love it.

Speaker 8 (41:13):
Those are my friends, are my family.

Speaker 5 (41:15):
That's where I enjoy watching stories, and so I think
we could bridge that gap. There was funny thing because
and I realized with Wicked that oh, this was a
property that has opportunities to do the thing that no
other musical could do. The world of oz was as
important as the music of Wicked, and that we were

(41:36):
bringing cinema lovers back to a world that they had
fallen in love with cinema maybe in the first place,
and that there was a great responsibility with that. And
at a time after COVID, when cinemas were hurting, and
at a time when people are doubting the scope and
scale of what cinema can do. And we're at a
time where representation is such an important thing and in

(41:59):
works of timeless art, that we if we could incorporate
a physically disabled actor, truly disabled, playing a disabled person
in the in there, we could We could have people
of all shaped, the size, colors, ages, and and have
the music as not as a separate piece, but as

(42:19):
a as an integral part of the expression of that
in a timeless world. And by the way, that timeless
fantasy world maybe one of the first that has accessible
ramps for the characters and things like that, that we
can do that, and we and because ultimately the story
is digging at truth. If we could at these actors
could could portray the truth, and of course Meyern digging
that out.

Speaker 8 (42:39):
Then we had something.

Speaker 5 (42:40):
That was very unique in Wicked that I'd never gotten
that opportunity.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
I think, he's I love I love what you said.
And from my perspective, I don't go to these you know,
most of the bockbusters, with these budgets and these scale
of production are there not made for me. This was
the first movie in a long time I can remember
like where I thought, Oh, I get to enjoy the
spectacle that Donald gets to see in these Marvel movies

(43:05):
that he enjoys, but in a world that's interesting to me.
I mean, I can't think of a movie that that Yeah,
reiterating what you're saying, that that that gives me a
musical theater lover scope and scale and and fantasy and
just I mean, I I can segue into into this

(43:26):
into a question in you built so much of these
sets practically. I mean, this could have been such a
It wouldn't have been nearly as beautiful if this had
been a green screen so much as a green screen.
I know, obviously you have some green screen in it,
but yeah, but you built so many practical sets. Was
that hard to convince the studio to spend the money

(43:46):
on building those worlds? Because I know you built some
pretty epic sets. We can tell from watching the movie.

Speaker 5 (43:53):
Yeah, I mean it's it still goes to today. You know,
the amount of money it takes to Mount Oz is
a lot, and the commitment it takes, I mean today
is a lot easier than it was five months ago.

Speaker 8 (44:07):
But when you were building these sets, very that.

Speaker 5 (44:10):
Was part of the concept, you know, how I said, like,
you get two weeks to do whatever you want. Like
what I knew is I had to sell this idea
that in order to have us revisit Oz, that we
had to take the physical attributes of the Wizard of
Oz of the nineteen thirty nine.

Speaker 8 (44:25):
Movie and break the matte painting.

Speaker 5 (44:28):
And actually, if this movie was about truth, then we
needed to believe that this place actually exists, that it
was not in a dream, and so that the grass
had to be real, the walls had to be high,
the physicality of it had to be there, and so
we wanted this. I always sold this, like Lawrence of
Arabia as Cleopatra, as one of those things that we
only get once in our lifetime to really build. And

(44:50):
so by pushing that hard in those first two weeks,
I sort of like held their feet to the fire
every time.

Speaker 8 (44:55):
Questions would come.

Speaker 5 (44:56):
And then you get someone like Nathan Crowley, our amazing
production designer who who is a big trouble maker, builds,
loves to build. He you know, he worked with Nolan
for many years and did great, great showmen, and he
he he's the one who's like John, we're gonna plant
nine million tulips. John, We're going to build the train

(45:16):
and it's gonna move. John, We're gonna make that lake
in front of the in front of the school. And
I was like, they're gonna kill us. And he's like,
you don't worry.

Speaker 8 (45:26):
You just keep moving and we'll make it happen.

Speaker 5 (45:29):
He's like, by the way, the tulips are already planted,
so that's no choice.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
I love a guy like that. I love someone like that.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Do you think it's because it's Wicked that people feel
this way? Like Wicked changed Broadway? You know, there are
not a lot of shows that come into Broadway and
are sold.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Out for two years straight.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
I think Wicked was What's the other one that that
Josh gadd was a part of the Book of Mormon
is another movie that was sold out for you couldn't.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
Get tickets for two years.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
Do you think the response that you're getting from all
of these these are the creatives that you are collaborating with,
is because it's such a special piece, Like.

Speaker 5 (46:05):
Absolutely absolutely, I think that I think it was on
multiple fronts. I would think of of course, Wicked, the
show that the work that Kristin Adina, Joe, all these
people did on the uh.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Try to call her adele.

Speaker 8 (46:17):
I'm sorry, yes, sorry, yes, yes.

Speaker 5 (46:21):
The work that they did was was huge obviously lifting
I mean it said it, and it only allowed us
to do what we could do. What we were able
to do is then take that and and and use
them as excuses to then crank it up and to
actually build it into a cinematic world, which is which
is a very different thing. But absolutely Stephen Schwartz Winnie

(46:43):
Holtsman that everybody who worked on that show for twenty years,
who honed those jokes, who honed the thing, they deserve
huge amounts of credits because we you don't get this
kind of uh, this kind of opportunity without the show itself,
of course, no doubt.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
Let me ask you something I was wondering. This is
an example with the library dance sequence. So you built
this insane set that is just so beautiful, and then
you have choreography that's specific to the moving library stacks,
which was in stunt people. And I've literally watched behind
the scenes stuff. That's the level of geeking out I've done.

(47:21):
But how do you how what's the chicken or the
egg with that? Does your production designer say, hey, John,
What if there were these circular spinning library stacks and
then you go to the choreographer, Okay, what could you
do with that? How did that, just as an example,
evolve because I've never directed anything, you know, even with choreography,

(47:43):
well maybe one tiny thing with choreography, but I've always wondered,
how how youse a director evolve something like that?

Speaker 5 (47:50):
Yeah, it's well, I have some amazing collaborators, of course,
and we've done this for many years, so we have
a process. And this may not work for everybody, but
for us. Myron's in on that process. Alice our DP
is in on that process. Chris Scott, our choreographer who
I've known for so long, is in process. By the way,
Alice our DP I've worked with since college. So she

(48:12):
shot my college musical. So we can get in a
room and usually the script is very basic in terms
of the description of what's happening within the dance. I
ask them not to go too into detail because I
then take all the pieces and I'll break them out
and start to sort of I don't just sort of
riff off of what I think could happen. And I'm

(48:36):
there with Chris and so then Chris adds on to
that and says, well, and this is all just part
of the discussion, Well what if you did that? What
if they're if everything is circular? We start with like
the themes of the of the movie. Okay, so Oz
is everything is circular. Everything's been constructed to be perfect circles.
And yet in order to be a perfect group that

(48:56):
the cracks need to happen, The sharp edges the z
in Oz needs to happen. And that's where alpha but
comes in. So at shiz, everything has been perfectly circled.
We need to create some cracks in that. And this
is where the young generation first starts to like let
loose in their movement. So Chris starts to work on
like what movement could look like then, and then when
I bring up this, like what if this is turning bookshelves?

(49:19):
We knew that everything in Oz couldn't be had to
be bespoke, had to be a little bit delightful. If
the Wizard's sort of whole plan is to distract people
with delight so they didn't have to worry about and
they could always feel happy and didn't have to worry
about worry or anything like that, then he could be
in full control. So so okay, let's let's make the
bookshelves not straight but delightfully circular. And of course when

(49:42):
that starts to spin, we had done in the Heights
a spinning number on a fire escape.

Speaker 8 (49:49):
We had just experienced that.

Speaker 5 (49:50):
So what if this whole thing was circular, and what
if there's a little nod to two thousand and one,
like what if it had all these elements to it.
We wanted to do nods to American movies because we
were also sort of kicking the tires on the American story.
So there was this idea that how would the dancers
do that? And so then we have to convince this
so that I pitch it to our group, all our

(50:11):
heads of departments, and we have boards that Alice and
I work on. We don't know any actual choreography yet.
Chris doesn't even know what the dancers are able to
do in a spinning wheel because he doesn't have a
spinning wheel to actually doesn't know if he needs to
hire parkour people, chimnysts or bay boys or whatever or combination.

(50:32):
And so then our engineers start to build our physical
special effects. People start to say what they can build
and then Nathan starts to build around it how the
whole library is sort of circular, and then we deal
with the insurance, which is a whole other issue, and
at some point Chris goes into all the choreography before
getting into the wheel. We got the wheel and we

(50:54):
videotape it with iPhones or whatever we can. We start
cutting it together with boards or whatever, and then when
we got the wheel. We got the wheel about two
weeks before shooting because it was so expensive, there was
a lot of fights of getting it done. There's such
huge elements of engineering to actually complete it. Two weeks
before is when Chris started to actually choreograph within that.

(51:15):
So this we could have shipped the bed like, we
could have spent all this money and it wouldn't have
been good. We had no idea, but Chris and I
just sort of looked at each other and we're like,
you just fucking figure it out, because I don't want
to have to turn to my line producer and say, sorry,
it doesn't work. But we knew that there was that risk,
and we just don't tell everybody else.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
That Ron, you must no doubt.

Speaker 5 (51:36):
And then we just dump it on Myron, Ye say Maron,
you must have great rhythm, like when the dance parties happened,
you must be front and on the dance floor.

Speaker 3 (51:45):
Because literally, like from Garden State to Wicked bro like,
everything has a rhythm and everything is you know, we've
been listening to John and we've been listening to Zach
talk about the process of making and everything. But then
you're given this huge puzzle and of course you have
help from the directors and everything, and it's now here's
my vision. Make it work.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
Well, you know what I mean, make it, make it.

Speaker 3 (52:08):
When I watch it, I wanted to feel like I
wanted to feel like how I saw it in my head.
That is so much pressure, dude, so much pressure. Well
can you talk about that, just to rewind a little bit.

Speaker 6 (52:19):
You know, when I when I met Zach, I was
so excited by the script he had written because I
felt this emotion, I felt this this kinship with this character.
And while making the film, it was first about the
heart and wearing your heart on your sleeve, and then
the music was secondary. And of course I loved musicals

(52:41):
growing up. I loved, you know how Ashby films. I
loved films that had a lot of source of music
John Hughes films all that, But it was first about
the heart. And so when I got to work on
Garden State and I get to apply my love for music,
it was mostly about how does that support the motion?
And then when I got to work on more complicated

(53:03):
things like In the Heights and Crazy Rich Asians and
then Wicked, it all started with a heart and then
the rhythm and all that stuff afterwards just came from
out of the emotion of like what what what was
I trying to evoke emotionally through dance or through character
or through music. And and so Zach came at the

(53:23):
right time of the career, you know, he did train
me in some ways, and then and then and then
when I found when I found John, it was this
further exploration about how do I, how do I sincerely
like express heart without it feeling cynical or something I
don't know what it was. But then to use dance

(53:45):
and music, and then the rhythm just comes out of
something internally that has to do with just expressing this emotion.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
It has, But you must get so much, like just
to stick with the library example, there must be so
much much footage. I can't believe how you you know,
on an indie there's a finite amount of footage. I'm
just imagining it's so challenging for you to go, well,
all of these shots, I mean so many of these

(54:14):
shots are beautiful for this moment. How do I decide
what to go to where?

Speaker 6 (54:18):
Yeah, I mean John shoots a lot of he has
sometimes in some of these big numbers who have three
cameras going at once, just to just to make sure
he's not missing something or has a little piece that
we can use somewhere in the edit. And again it's
just I really pride myself of just watching everything and
just being really patient with learning the footage, and because

(54:41):
there is some kind of nugget or kernel. I remember
when we first worked togere Zachaus, It's like, you got
to make sure you watch everything because there might be
just that one little piece of improv.

Speaker 2 (54:50):
Or so what I always do what I always do,
And I'm directing Shrinking now, and I'm still worried about it.
When I'm directing Shrinking even is like we just we
keep the camera rolling and we're riffing around, and I'm
always worried that the editor is going to miss something
that's it's at the end of take seven, and it
was just one take of it. And so I'm always like,
you watched everything, right, you watch everything.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
Let's take a break.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
We'll be right back after these fine words. One thing
I wanted to ask you with a number, like defining gravity.
You know, so much of this movie was practical, but
in Defining Gravity you obviously have a lot of visual effects.
How do you cut something so effectively when so much

(55:35):
of it isn't going to be there until you've locked picture?
Do you know what I mean? Like that whole sequence
in the mirror and all of that, the whole all
the whole climax of the end of the movie, how
do you how do you cut that with so much
green screen footage and and stuff you know isn't going
to gonna You have to use your imagination, really use

(55:58):
your imagination.

Speaker 6 (55:59):
You really have to imagine in the building in the background,
you know, moving with her. But at the end of
the day, you know, you again, you're really focused on performance,
you know, and focused on you know, you know, Cynthia,
and then looking at this this one, I forget the
the cast members named the little girl looking at her, Yeah,

(56:21):
and then you know, just focusing on the performance and
then imagining everything else. And then you're of course pacing
that stuff out, and then you know, you start to
get things like post viz in there, and you get like,
you know, really crappy versions of a building flying in
the background, or you know, a cutout version of a
monkey chasing her. But ultimately it's just again just really

(56:44):
focusing on the performance and then just trying to use
your imagination. I mean, you you Donald, you talk about
all these films like Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back,
and I was always thinking about these movies when I
was cutting this movie, you know, just like I was
just so happy I finally got a chance to work

(57:05):
with a s geeky side in myself that I've always
wanted to do these movies, these really big epic films,
and now I get this chance. I was like, Okay,
what would Spielberg do, what would Lucas do? Like what
you know, what, you know, what kind of shot would
he want to cut to?

Speaker 2 (57:19):
You?

Speaker 6 (57:20):
You know, when the balloon is going up in the
air and then the you know cascades, you know, uh,
you know, fiery down to the ground, and.

Speaker 5 (57:27):
I just I would be like, what would you do Myron?

Speaker 2 (57:36):
Do you ever do you ever call maron you were cutting?
I'm assuming while they were shooting, do you ever call
John and be like, hey, you know'd be great. You
don't have this, it'd be great if you got this.

Speaker 5 (57:47):
I mean, it's usually a series of texts that I ignore.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
I mean, what's what is nice?

Speaker 1 (57:54):
You know?

Speaker 6 (57:54):
I was in London for eight months during the shoot,
and it was over one hundred and fifty five days,
and you know, to be there and then I can
actually walk downstairs to the set and say, hey, can
I show you this piece? And you know, I think
we might be missing here or are you okay if
I ask second unit to pick up something, you know,

(58:17):
And sometimes like on the balloon chase scene, we're kind
of like figuring that scene as John was still shooting,
Like he shot one version of this of the scene,
and then we were like, maybe there should be a
ticking clock with the with the roof closing, So then
we we, uh we kind of I developed it with
the effects and then I presented to John and John's like, okay,

(58:39):
this kind of works, this we could change and then
we then he shot principal and second unit again, and
so it's nice to be there, to be able to
not affect production but just be involved.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
In it, you know, to have money. That's all that
is rich people, I know.

Speaker 2 (58:57):
I mean just for those of for our listeners who
don't know film production, I mean, this is just filmmaking
on the largest scale. Second unit is a whole other
unit that's shooting stuff that doesn't involve the stars. So
forming to be able to like, hey, do you mind
if I have second unit go off and shoot this?
That's pretty bougie.

Speaker 5 (59:16):
But I'll tell you what the best part about working
with someone like Mayra and you really did, Zach. I
don't know how you guys got to this, but finding
those little in between moments intakes like that's to me
was what I've been always looking for because I love
finding things with our actors.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
You know.

Speaker 5 (59:35):
The hardest part I think about directing is getting used
to not being in control all the time. When you're
making your little things, you are literally in control all
your time. I'm telling my friends to grab the thing
at this time and whatever itever. But when you start
to get into the bigger movies, you need you need people,
and you need them to make it better than you
ever could. If it's what you could imagine in your bedroom,

(59:57):
then it's not good enough, and so you're con instantly.
I think you have to have the fundamentals right, your
intention of the story, where what the architecture is.

Speaker 8 (01:00:06):
How you want these characters unfold.

Speaker 5 (01:00:07):
Then if you're going to be truly collaborative, the actors
bring a whole new perspective to that.

Speaker 8 (01:00:12):
At a certain point.

Speaker 5 (01:00:13):
I always say, like, we can plan, plan, plan, but
when you start making the movie, the movie starts speaking
back to you, and you better be listening. And that's
where Myron comes in, because he's the ultimate listener. He's
getting footage that I haven't even shared how I think
it's being cut. He hasn't even seen boards of some
of these things that's in my head. I don't even
share boards with people on set, really because I just

(01:00:33):
want to feel like we're just playing in most instances,
and I want the freedom to be able to do
that and not have checkboxes. But then I dump it
to Myron and he has to actually figure it out
himself and go where instinctually it feels right in the
performances themselves, or with the camera work or whatever it is,
and so for me that reset and you have to
do that reset several times in this movie to find

(01:00:55):
the best version. Is takes experience, It takes trust with
each other, within you yourself.

Speaker 8 (01:01:00):
But that's my favorite part is that you just don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Yeah, And one thing you're saying that it applies to
all filmmakers who are listening, whether you're about to direct
a several hundred million dollar movie or you're going to
direct your first short film. And you've spoken a lot
about this, John, is reliance on your collaborators and trust
in your collaborators and not needing to be the one
who has the best idea. That's something I really had

(01:01:24):
to grow into when I made Garden State. I was like,
I have to be the one. This is my movie,
I wrote it. I have to be the one who
has the best idea. And little by little, you know,
Larry Sure, the legendary DP would be like, you know,
I know you want to put the camera here, but
look at it over here, and I'd be like, wow,
that is cool. Or Myron would cut some sequence and
I'd be like, holy shit, that's not how I didn't
think you were going to put I didn't I wanted

(01:01:46):
to put the Simon and Garf Fogus song on the movie.
I didn't think it was going to go here. That's
I've got goosebumps all over my whole body. And what
you're saying with all your collaborators on set, that's that's
something I'm still I'm still doing. We were improving a
scene and shrinking the other day and we had cut
and as we were moving on to change the setup,
the DP riffed a punchline to a joke and I went,

(01:02:08):
that's the why didn't you fucking see that earlier? That's
the funniest joke we've come up with. And and he
was like, ah, it's too late. I go, no, no, no,
roll it again. We're gonna go again and do the
dp's joke. And that does take a lot of time
for you to get to a place where I can
where I can have my ego be relaxed and be
open to like whoever has the best idea wins, you know.

Speaker 5 (01:02:28):
And it's a balance too, because you know, you do
have to lead the group of course a horizon, and
yet you have to be open enough to discover the
better things that come about and that's that is a
difficult thing, and I you know, you struggle with it
the whole time, no matter what, like even when score
comes in and the score isn't exactly what you've lived
with in the temp and then you start to feel like,

(01:02:50):
well I really wanted that be. But then they're offering
you something and if you're not listening to it, and
maybe they're wrong, and you have to be aware when
they're wrong and get you back on course.

Speaker 8 (01:03:00):
But there are but there are plenty of moments.

Speaker 5 (01:03:02):
Where where they're actually itching at something that or a
symptom of something that you need to address.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
I'm gonna say too that are probably going to get
me in a lot of trouble too.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Oh god, see he's gotten comfortable. Wait you need Daniel. Wait, Daniel,
come back on when when Donald, when Donald says something inappropriate,
U Daniel shakes his head and he knows the stop
with one.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
Thank goodness for digital chip in the camera now instead
of film because all of these things that you guys,
Daniel don't do.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
That that's not controversial.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
Because all of these things that you guys are I thought.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
You're going to be like, can I get Cynthia's number?

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
No, but thank goodness for that because now you can
afford to go back and do things that you couldn't
do before, back in the day when it was film
and you had this is the amount of film we
have for the for the for the movie, yo, So
we can't just go back to the other setup and shoot.

Speaker 1 (01:03:58):
That's one, Zach, you told me a story once.

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
This is the other thing that I thought was amazing
and is when you were filming Going in Style and
Alan Arkin Arkin was called Alan Aldo, that's the dude
from ash Alan Arkin. He was on the bench and
they with the love interest in the show, and they were, uh,
you know, going back and forth. They had a line

(01:04:22):
and you didn't know if you got it or anything
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
And some of the.

Speaker 3 (01:04:26):
Magic was actually in the in between takes where they're
just talking as the camera is you know, settling and
they're getting shots and everything like that, and he's looking
at her and he's giving her looks and she's giving
him looks. And a lot of that information wasn't present
while you were shooting the thing, but actually came after

(01:04:47):
it was shot, and those things wound up in the movie.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Well, that was that was that scene you're talking about
it was an example where I when it was over,
I was like, oh Jesus, I didn't I didn't crack
the scene and were out of time, and I was
not operating on a Wicked like budget where it was like, well,
we're going to reshoot that next week and figure it out.
So I handed it off to Myron and was like,
I don't know, can you make something out of this?

(01:05:13):
And Myron did. Myron found those moments, And I think
that there's so much there's so much to be found
in the unexpected and just letting the camera roll and
letting people continue to talk and riff. And that example
you're giving is is that they had such a nice
banter and friendship those two actors on set that there

(01:05:33):
were little magical moments in just watching them interact that
we actually ended up using in a cut of that scene.

Speaker 5 (01:05:41):
I'm interested to know, Like for you, Zach too, is
because you're you've been on both sides, Like when you
started directing, did that change the way you saw acting,
what your role was as an actor on set of
being present and what you are trying to control, or
did that make you more aware of like, oh shit,
my performance could be changed very dramatically.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
That's a great question. Uh. What I felt was, you know,
sometimes I just need a shot of you looking out
the window, like like, you don't need to do all
this thinking you're doing and overthinking and get tears in
your eyes because your dad screamed at you, just like
I just need a shot of you looking out the
window and I and that really helped me as an

(01:06:25):
actor because it is such a collaborative collage on the on.
On the other side of things, there's times where I
thought I really brought it, and I see a cut
of my performance and I think, oh, you you you
didn't make me. I remember the pilot of Scrubs, Bill
was cutting the Lawrence was cutting out air from a

(01:06:46):
dramatic moment to make the show so tight, And I
was like I even had the audacity at that, at
that young of an age to be like you, you
made me look like not as good of an actor,
because the right thing to do there is to take
a pause and digest that information and not just speak
right away. So there are moments where where you're like,

(01:07:06):
why did you You know? It does make me as
an actor when I'm sometimes feel like there's a better
performance than the one you cut of me, and I
can sometimes I'm in a position where I can say, hey,
why didn't you use that take? Or hey, when you
play that on my back, I think it's weird or
a lot of times with comedy, because I do think
that's the thing I have the most experience on. I
promise you that joke will play better better if you

(01:07:28):
cut to me for the reaction or cut to the
other person. The joke doesn't land on the person saying,
it's going to land on the reaction for the other person.
That kind of thing just has become natural in my body.

Speaker 5 (01:07:39):
Yeah, I mean that also has so much of like
what if myron doesn't know how to cut a joke,
then the joke will not work. It doesn't matter how
good the performance is. Or you set back and you
let the actor play the joke out and then you know.

Speaker 8 (01:07:52):
So it's always like.

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
It's funny when you go down and you test somebody
test a comedy and you go, why isn't that joke working?
It was so funny on set. And then it can
literally be removing some frames or it can be literally
what I'm saying, where you're trying to play the joke
on the person who said the funny thing, whereas then
you discover the audience laps way harder when you cut
to the dead pan reaction of the person listening and

(01:08:15):
you just didn't see it that way. By the way,
were you able to test this movie or because it
was so high profile? Was that helpful to you? The
testing process?

Speaker 6 (01:08:23):
It was? It was, It was really helpful because you know, well,
first of all, we do a series of smaller screenings,
like almost like any other film, you know, where you're
testing it on your friends and like groups of like
five and ten and fifteen, and then you're you get
more confident over time, and then you're testing on like
two hundred really close friends. Yeah, close friends. But and

(01:08:49):
then and then you go out to like we went
out to Arizona and Vegas and San Diego and you
know they had to you know, sign in DA's and
all that stuff. But uh, you know, we wanted to
make sure that the film was going to work for
a general audience. And I think that was really brave
of Mark Platt and Universal to allow us to do that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
And yeah, it's so helpful, and you know, I know
a lot of times are these huge movies, these huge ips.
They don't want to do it just because they don't
even want to risk anything anyone going online and saying
I saw an early cut and all that stuff. But
I think I think it would be so helpful for
you guys to get the feedback, especially with a musical comedy.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:09:27):
I think some directors don't like to share because they
want their work and that's what it is. And and
I just think for us, I think it's it's not
necessarily what the audience says back because most of their.

Speaker 8 (01:09:40):
Solutions are not good.

Speaker 5 (01:09:42):
They don't know the architectures, they don't have solutions, but
the consistency of the symptoms of something, whether they don't,
oh they don't, they're not rooting for this character. So
it's not necessarily in that scene that's the problem. It's yeah,
well we need to like empathize with that character way earlier.
So I think we need that data in order to
find solutions.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
I think it's the most valuable thing is just sitting
with the audience. I mean, you can feel when they're lost,
you can feel when they're bored, you can feel the
jokes that aren't playing, And that's more valuable than anything
they write on the cards.

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
Yes, that's part of my question. When do you know
you did it? You know, when do you know? So
you completed the.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
Movie Friday night of opening weekend? Probably right?

Speaker 3 (01:10:23):
Really is that when it happens? Okay, So here's an example.
I remember when I saw I Remember the Titans for
the first time. I got to show were you in that?

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
Donald?

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
I was. It's a little movie by the day.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
It is Denzel Washington in that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
Denzel Washington is the star of it. I'm in it
also with Denzil I have quite a few scenes with them.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
By the Yeah, I've heard about that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
I hold my own, John, I hold my own Anyway.
The point is.

Speaker 3 (01:10:45):
I remember holding a small group of people in a theater.
Jerry Bruckheimer and then were nice enough to allow me
to have my family come and see the movie. Some
of my cousins and my parents were in a big
musical theater. They were in a theater growing up for
me growing up, So I watched my parents.

Speaker 1 (01:11:04):
Do musical theater. That's what I should say.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):
So a lot of the repertory company came, or a
lot of the company came, and we're watching it and
they're so into it, and there was that moment where
it was like, holy shit, I did it. I did
exactly what I told my mom I was gonna do.
I left the house and I fucking became an actor,
and I'm in a movie that everybody's gonna fucking go see.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
I know it for a fact.

Speaker 3 (01:11:25):
I could feel it right now as just by the
way everyone in the room is behaving. Some people look
at when you you know, artists, when musical artists go
into the studio and they're making a song and there's
that moment where it's like, oh shit, we made a
hit before it even hits the radio. They just know
when at I'm asking all three of you, at what point, Myron, John,

(01:11:48):
Zach are you Myron where you're like, Okay, this is
all I can do. I think this is it. John,
where you're like, holy fuck, we made it. Zach, where
you're like there was a point where you saw a
garden state and you were like, holy shit, everybody's gonna
love this shit. There's gotta be a moment.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
Well, there's started. That's a great question, and I want
John to go first, but I'll just say that there's
two different moments. Really, there's holy shit I made something
I'm proud of and be holy shit, the audience likes this.
So John, what was that for you?

Speaker 8 (01:12:23):
Well?

Speaker 5 (01:12:24):
I remember it more clearly for crazy rich Asians because
I did not have any big expectations for that.

Speaker 8 (01:12:30):
And I love that movie.

Speaker 5 (01:12:31):
I loved making that movie. When we were there, it
felt like something special was happening. But I still held
onto the idea that no one's ever seen this movie,
but what we were doing was the right thing to do.

Speaker 8 (01:12:40):
I when we.

Speaker 5 (01:12:41):
Showed it to our first when we showed that movie
to our first audience, and watching them fall in love
with those characters who did not look traditionally like their
romantic leads, and they were crying and doing and and
following along.

Speaker 8 (01:12:58):
These things that felt so specifically to me and my family.

Speaker 5 (01:13:01):
And then they stayed in the lobby for like an
hour afterwards just talking about it. To me, that meant
everything we hadn't you know, we hadn't opened yet, but
it felt like, Okay, we did our thing I think
for and then in the Heights when we did in
the Heights, I felt when we were making it, I
literally said like this is the best I can do,

(01:13:22):
Like I don't something is really working in this and
I don't know what it is. And then movie came
out and nobody went to see it, and so I
have had and then the critics loved it, and then
nobody went to go see it.

Speaker 8 (01:13:34):
So I had this like mental whiplash.

Speaker 5 (01:13:37):
And so for Wicked, I made myself very prepared that
it didn't matter how I felt about after it, that
I was only focusing on process. I was only focusing
on getting it to as best as we could. And
then I had to like shield everything out. It was
too painful in the heights, to be honest, and so
I've kept it actually pretty far from me and have

(01:14:00):
a second half.

Speaker 8 (01:14:00):
So it's also like it's not done yet. So I'm
thinking a little bit ahead.

Speaker 5 (01:14:04):
I think at the AFI luncheon, when they showed the
clip from they showed the clips from all the Oscar
nominated movies or whatever, and they showed the end of Wicked,
and all those scenes were amazing that from all the
other movies. I was like, Oh, no, they're going to
show a musical scene from our movie and it's going
to be like, oh, just a musical number whatever. But
when they showed the end of Defying Gravity, that audience

(01:14:25):
in that room connected so hard, and these are people
who are jaded, and they clapped so loud and stood
up what they hadn't done for anyone. And it just
felt like, no matter what you give us or not
give us or acknowledge, it makes you feel this. It
makes you feel And remember the Titans. I remember being
in that audience, with that audience when they scored a touchdown,

(01:14:45):
everybody was standing in the theater.

Speaker 8 (01:14:47):
I'd never felt that.

Speaker 5 (01:14:48):
I was like, we have that with defin if we
can do that, and I think I said that to you, Myron,
remember the Titans. There's a moment. If we can get
people to stand up in that theater, that's like our goal.
We get this beautiful gift to define Gravis. So I
haven't fully let it in, but I've I left pieces,
left pieces in yet so far.

Speaker 1 (01:15:02):
I love it. I love it. Thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:15:04):
I mean, it's well, certainly you know this is gonna
sound silly, but in both Garden State, crazy Rich Asians
in the Heights and Wicked, it's the same feeling I
have when I finished the assembly. If I'm crying and
feeling emotional and I'm feeling the same way on the
mixing stage and in the theater, like I know, it's

(01:15:27):
working and consistently with all those movies. I felt that
over and over again. You know, of course it's nice
when they're applauding at AFI, I mean that was an
incredible experience. Or even at the Oscars, you're.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Like sitularly like, oh my god, they playing a clip.

Speaker 6 (01:15:42):
At the Oscars, you know, but it really is that
very pure moment of like what it feels like when
you see the first movie for the first time and
you're like, oh my god, I'm just feeling deeply for
these characters. This seems so special. I remember that first
my first cup at Guarden State, are going to Sundance
for the first time. It all felt like the same feeling.

(01:16:03):
It just was like it just was on repeat. And
so when that, you know, the first kind of Wicked
was before John saw. It was on my birthday like
two years ago, and I just my assistants were in
the room with me and we're just like just crying,
and it was like just you know, card saying, you know,
shot of monkeys missing here. But still it was just

(01:16:26):
like this really ultimately just beautiful emotional experience.

Speaker 2 (01:16:33):
Zachart Well for me, it was you know in Garden State,
it was you know, Meyern and I cut that in
my living room and so we were sitting there thinking,
I think we made something really good, but we had
no idea. And then I remember it got into Sundance
and it played at the Eccles Theater and I introduced
it and I went to the back of the theater
and I just started sobbing. I just felt like, I

(01:16:54):
can't believe this happened. I can't believe we're here. I
can't believe my first movie premiering at Sundance, and then
it had such a reaction. It was really one of
the greatest moments of my life. And you know, with
my last film, A Good Person, I was so happy
with it and so proud of it, and then you know,

(01:17:16):
it didn't really have the theatrical reaction I wanted, and
that was a really disappointing and similar to what John
is saying about in the Heights, I really was felt
really sad that it didn't have the theatrical reaction. And
then when it finally was free on Prime at Christmas,
it was number one on Prime, and then all of

(01:17:38):
these Christmas movies started coming in and I was like, oh,
this is definitely gonna get kicked out of the top
ten on Prime because of all these Christmas And it
stayed in the top ten on Prime with just a
Good Person and Christmas movies for like two weeks, and
the well, the executive at Amazon called me. She's like,
do you know how many people are watching this movie
when you're in the top five on Amazon Prime across

(01:17:59):
the So then I finally felt like some vindication for
it not performing well theatrically. But it's it's it's I
had two more questions because I know you guys got
to go, but I just wanted to say, Myron, I
read that you it was your idea or John it
was a collaboration. But what was the decision process behind

(01:18:20):
not just going hard cut to black after the big note,
but having that boom boom boom boom, which I loved. Yeah,
I thought that was rad And I know there's a.

Speaker 3 (01:18:32):
Little story how she takes off don't don't don't don't dun.

Speaker 2 (01:18:40):
I thought that was brilliant. What was the process of that?

Speaker 6 (01:18:45):
Well? I uh so, okay, so of course you get
ended on the war cry. I sometimes I.

Speaker 1 (01:18:52):
Don't know it. I love that you called it a
war cry.

Speaker 2 (01:18:54):
Well that's what we got.

Speaker 1 (01:18:58):
I'm gonna tell you. That's what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (01:19:01):
Oh god, Donalds are not the note Sorry everybody not everybody? Yeah, well,
at least listener. I think they already shot those part
two donald.

Speaker 6 (01:19:16):
Yeah, so that you know that. Of course, that's where
you're supposed to end. I think when I was sometimes
I so John oftentimes would say, you know, do you
want to know my plan with a film, like how
to cut a scene together? And I say, no, I
don't want to know your plan because I want to
play with the footage and just see, you know what

(01:19:38):
do I come up with just that way? If I
make mistakes or I just discover something from the course
of editing, then that's great. And one of those things
was how to end the movie. And I had basically
had a lot of you know, previews of like you know,
Alfa but flying and and I was like, I want
to use some of this footage. And so I during

(01:20:00):
my first assembly, I actually went to my music editors
and said, can we extend the music after the war Cry?
And the music editors, of course, we are looking at
me like I don't know if we should do that,
and we're like no, no, no, just it's just me and you.
We're just we're just messing around a little bit. And
it was like, yeah, okay, well are amazing editor music
editors Jack Dolman and Katherine Wilson, they said, okay, we'll

(01:20:22):
try to extend that, and then, of course, you know,
kind of worked. And then I said, I literally said
to Jack's like, can we try the two thousand and
one you know tippany hits to like help? And then
I said to him, can we can we repeat the
word down And it's just like no, no, no, we can't
do any of this, Steven Schwartz, John, Everyone's gonna kill us.

(01:20:44):
And I was like, just just try it, and so
we did it. We workshopped the idea at my assembly stage,
and then I presented it to John. Little did I know, like,
you know, eight months later, I'm watching the end of
Tea at like vidiots, uh, and I'm watching and literally
John Williams is doing these same Tippany hits like and

(01:21:08):
so I think that something just in my my d
NNA had told me to extend this moment, make it
feel like this back to the Future Empire strikes Back,
Cliffhanger ending, and then I presented John and you know,
there's a lot of debate after you do these things,
you know whether it's the right idea, but you know,
it ended up sticking.

Speaker 2 (01:21:30):
I loved it.

Speaker 5 (01:21:31):
He also was not in the room when I when
I showed the movie to Steven Spielberg and I'm sitting
there after in the dark with him and he turns
to me and he says, I heard those e t TV.

Speaker 1 (01:21:45):
I'm gonna say. Steven Spielberg was like, took that from me?

Speaker 8 (01:21:48):
I was like, mine, where's mine?

Speaker 2 (01:21:52):
I've never heard you? Did he actually say that?

Speaker 6 (01:21:54):
Are you making that out?

Speaker 1 (01:21:58):
That's the first time.

Speaker 2 (01:21:59):
That's so wait but wait, John, did you re record
the orchestra? Are those literally the timpany from No.

Speaker 8 (01:22:05):
They're not there.

Speaker 1 (01:22:06):
We were.

Speaker 7 (01:22:06):
They were our own orchestra for Suresh Bilboard watching all
the week and goes, oh, you took that from you?

Speaker 2 (01:22:13):
So that ship. Oh god, But that's the highest compliment.
That's the highest compliment when they when they actually know
what you're doing. It's like, it's all right, last question.

Speaker 1 (01:22:25):
That was a great moment.

Speaker 3 (01:22:26):
That is one of my look there are so many
moments in this movie that are my favorite moments. I
was really worried about Popular. I didn't know how you
were going to be able to do that define gravity.
I you know, you have an imagination that succeeded that
my imagination, but Popular. I was so worried about, how
are they going to make this part funny?

Speaker 1 (01:22:47):
How are they going hard?

Speaker 5 (01:22:49):
Good?

Speaker 3 (01:22:49):
That's funny, But that's the that's the piece in the
play where if you missed that one, guess.

Speaker 5 (01:22:55):
What, well, and you're in it and you're stuck in
a dorm room and now you're really late in this movie.
If you actually look at the architecture, do you really
need Popular?

Speaker 2 (01:23:07):
The song?

Speaker 8 (01:23:08):
I'm not sure it moves anything for it. So we
had to give reasons for it to be.

Speaker 5 (01:23:11):
She had to be fucking on it on every thing
and not again copying anything of Kristin, and the dorm
had to have space and room for them to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:22):
Was a lot.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
When I was watching it, I was in the theater going,
she's fucking hilarious, She's amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:23:30):
I was watching this going, holy shit, Ariana Grande's doing
exactly Look okay, so look, my kids love Victorious which
is a television show that she was on back in
the day.

Speaker 1 (01:23:41):
And if you watch that show now, it's great.

Speaker 3 (01:23:43):
It's a bunch of great performances from young actors and
actresses and stuff like that. But the person that really
stands out is Ariana, you know what I mean. She's
the comic relief in it. She's the voice in it.
So she's an actual person who's carrying it with her
singing and everything. Everybody else is kind of dancing and
singing too, but she's the star and you don't really
notice it until you go back.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
And watch it.

Speaker 3 (01:24:05):
When I saw that she got this part, I was like,
she's getting nominated for an Oscar. I was saying that before.
I was saying that from the gate. Once the trailer
came out, I was like, she's getting nominated. It's a rap.

Speaker 1 (01:24:15):
When that part came up and I was like, all right, now,
here's the thing.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
Do you Ariana Grande's situation and you sing it with
all of his soul and stuff, or do you stick
to what the way it was? And the fact that
she was able to find that middle and hit you
still with the little riff here and there, you can't
beat it, like I saw somebody say, I don't know
where I'm going with this. I saw somebody on the
internet say, look, ladies and gentlemen of the Wicked community,

(01:24:44):
those of you who are going to go on and
do Wicked on Broadway or off Broadway, please stick to
the way it is originally written. You don't have what
it takes to do what Arianna and Sydneya did, like
sickly like.

Speaker 1 (01:24:57):
It's just it was so refreshing because we could have
and I'm and I'm, and I'm and I'm and I'm
you know, I'm. I just love the movie so much.
But you can't.

Speaker 3 (01:25:08):
You can't do the same movie as the play and
expect everybody to be like, absolutely, you know that you
did it.

Speaker 1 (01:25:15):
It has to be something different. It has to be innovative.
There has to, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:25:19):
George Lucas is the king of saying this. If you're
doing the same thing over and over again, you're not
really making good movies. You're just making a movie. You
gotta make it different in some way, and you found ways,
thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:25:29):
And and and. The theater experience is completely different than
the cinematic experience in terms of the perspective of the
audience like we had to uncover very early. Uh that
when the audience sits in a theater, you're in with
the world that's in front of you.

Speaker 8 (01:25:44):
You're expecting a musical.

Speaker 5 (01:25:45):
She comes into the bubble, she's like, Glinda is the
host for the night, and then this and and then
the odd girl drops in, the green girl, and then
you laugh at the green girl, and then and then
she has to win you over throughout through throughout, but
you still.

Speaker 8 (01:25:59):
Have Glinda as the host. In the movie. The audience
is skeptical from the beginning, like, show me why I
need to believe in a musical world. I don't even
like musicals. And so you have this wall already.

Speaker 5 (01:26:10):
And then the green girl drops in and everyone's singing
around her, and she's looking around and she's the audience
being like, what the fuck have I just dropped into?
And why are all these people singing? And so her
first words, uh in wizard and I did that really
just happen? And she starts to sing. You're like, oh
my gosh, she has a better singing like power than
anybody in this movie.

Speaker 8 (01:26:32):
And you're like, then you root for her, And it's through.

Speaker 5 (01:26:35):
The medium of the actual way you're telling this story,
and I think all those things. And then the brilliance
of Ariana Grande is that, you know, you laugh at
her in this movie because.

Speaker 8 (01:26:45):
She's silly and crazy whatever. She's fully committed.

Speaker 5 (01:26:48):
But by the time you get to the os Dust
and she she sacrifices her own sort of what she
thinks is important to be there just with her friend
or this new friend. Then by the time you get
to Popular, you're not laughing at her anymore. You're laughing
with her. And that transition because right before she says,
it's not your fault, and you can see and in

(01:27:09):
Cynthia's and this Myron's brilliance is that you see in
Cynthia's eyes her like falling for this girl, like wow,
she sees the world so simply and it has value.
And then Glinda says, oh, look, it's tomorrow, like hope
in a bottle. And then she gets to sing popular,
and now you're in love with them. You're in love
with her, and now popular comes across as like just

(01:27:30):
fun and it's driving your their relationship closer. So we
had to recognize the different medium in order to uncover
the things we need to do in in this media,
in this, in this movie, to make it work.

Speaker 2 (01:27:41):
Actually, when you were such the perfect person for the job.

Speaker 8 (01:27:44):
I'm so thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:27:45):
I'm so glad that you I'm so glad you both
got the assignment. I can't wait to watch the next part.
I love for good. That song is just one of
the most beautiful songs ever written.

Speaker 3 (01:27:57):
I'm excited. Essay these motherfuck is it going to be
fighting each other and everything?

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
John?

Speaker 2 (01:28:03):
Did you ever did you ever see the video of
Kristin Chenowith at the Hollywood Bowl calling up a school
teacher to sing for good with her?

Speaker 5 (01:28:12):
No, I've seen some of those kind of videos, but
I haven't seen that one in particular.

Speaker 2 (01:28:15):
Well, I think I think it's safe to assume it
was a plant and she knew because just go the audience,
go watch this, and John, please admire and watch it.
It's it's Cynthia Revea at the Hollywood Bowl and she says,
I need someone to sing for good with me, and
she calls up a woman from the audience, and the
woman says, she says, what do you do? She says,

(01:28:37):
I actually teach singing. I'm a school teacher. And everyone
applauds and The woman proceeds to give the most breathtaking
rendition of the song with Kristen Cynthia Rebo with Kristin Chenniwan.
Yeah did I say Cynthia. I meant Kristin. Anyway, it's
just a little thing I wanted to share with you because.

Speaker 5 (01:28:57):
I will say about the Hollywood bull Is, you did
a video there for Joshua Raiden and I love that video.

Speaker 2 (01:29:05):
Oh, John, thank you.

Speaker 8 (01:29:06):
And there's a simplicity with the light that you did
with it. I was just so beautiful.

Speaker 5 (01:29:11):
And I you know in our end credits when we
talk about the lights, that was part of the inspiration.
I was like, oh yeah, that like that video, like
that Zach did. And so anyway that that video stays
very is in my brain a lot, and you.

Speaker 3 (01:29:24):
Don't have a lot of them, John, But if you
want to come to the Garden State concert, I'm sure
my boy can hook it on.

Speaker 6 (01:29:33):
Myron.

Speaker 2 (01:29:33):
Yes, that's I don't know if you're I don't know
if you're in La on March twenty ninth, John Chew,
But Myron's going to be there, and uh, I know
a fellow that can get you in.

Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
Let's see.

Speaker 8 (01:29:44):
Yeah, I'll make my I'll make my stage.

Speaker 2 (01:29:45):
And so I know you like both Garden State and
things shot and things shot, an outdoor amphitheaters. Last question, Donald,
and I heard you're doing Joseph, and I know that
fifty year old men might be too, but listen, Jesus
no is not in Joseph. She's fucking ruining my pitch already.

(01:30:07):
She's a superstar. My bad, My bad, All right now,
now we're down to forty five seconds. Okay, do you
want Donald to night audition? Even though we're fifty and
most of the characters probably aren't fifty, we we would
love to. I had to pitch that Donald and I
were going to do Joseph on Broadway and we were
going to alternate all of the principal roles, and.

Speaker 1 (01:30:31):
That is not going to work. He's nodding like he's
nodding like, oh, did you really interesting?

Speaker 2 (01:30:38):
Anyway?

Speaker 5 (01:30:39):
I love I love Joseph so much, and I want
to do I I wanted I want to do something
that is just ridiculous and crazy and and it's south
and for some reason, I don't know, Joseph has always
been that for me, but also about a dreamer or
someone who's dreaming of something for them.

Speaker 2 (01:30:58):
I also feel like the show is so much better
than the treatment it gets. It's always been treated like
it's always been treated like a Vegas act, and and
I think that the show is so much better and
smarter than that. So I'm glad it's in your hands.

Speaker 1 (01:31:11):
I'm gonna say this, and then we're gonna let you go.

Speaker 2 (01:31:13):
He's gotta go.

Speaker 3 (01:31:14):
I say this is Zach all the time. You guys
both should be directing Star Wars and or Marble. I'm
just gonna put it out there.

Speaker 1 (01:31:22):
I'm just gonna put it out there.

Speaker 2 (01:31:23):
What if I told you that they're onto things that
are more important to us than that. All right, guys,
thank you for your time. We know you're so busy.
Thank you so much, thank you.

Speaker 8 (01:31:33):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:31:33):
Guys.

Speaker 2 (01:31:40):
Well, we were almost in Joseph and you had to
ruin it.

Speaker 1 (01:31:42):
I didn't ruin anything.

Speaker 2 (01:31:45):
You had to make a Jesus joke, and then you
allowed him to pivot off of us.

Speaker 1 (01:31:50):
Look, my point is this this back.

Speaker 3 (01:31:57):
We have to be persistent like the ice If we
want to be a part of his world, you have
to be persistent like the fucking ice cream truck and
consistently be outside his window.

Speaker 2 (01:32:06):
I want y'all to know that it's fucking March eighteenth
in New York and the fucking ice cream truck is back. Anyway,
that was amazing. Huh. That was one of my favorite
episodes we've ever done. But two people at the top
of their game.

Speaker 3 (01:32:22):
I was about to say this, this will go down
in history ten years from now. Hopefully this age is
like fine wine and you and I both keep our
nose clean. But we just had, in my opinion, the
next big blockbuster director on this podcast, and I think
in ten years he will do. I look at him
like Spielberg, and I look at him like, uh, like

(01:32:43):
Lucas in a lot of ways, because he's very innovative
and he's doing something different with musical and fantasy. I
imagine Joseph in the Technicolored dream Coat is gonna be
freaking outrageous.

Speaker 2 (01:32:54):
Bro, He's so smart. I love what he was saying
when he was talking about how like OZ, everything in
OZ is meant to be a distraction and it's perfect,
and then the Z is alphabe it cuts through the
perfection of OZ.

Speaker 3 (01:33:06):
I was like, oh shit, it's refreshing to see someone.
I mean, you're very much like this too. The way
you talk about directing and everything like that and telling stories,
you could tell he's a fan of the stories that
he's telling.

Speaker 2 (01:33:18):
Let's go back to the fact that my Josh Raiden
video at the Hollywood Ball inspired him.

Speaker 3 (01:33:24):
Not only that, dude Wicked being so good, I would
remember the Titans, bro always remember that.

Speaker 1 (01:33:32):
He remember the Titans. If we could have that feeling
like that.

Speaker 2 (01:33:36):
I don't know, did no, no, no? He basically my
Josh Raiden music video is the reason Wicked was so good.

Speaker 3 (01:33:49):
I'm going to go and say the reason to remember
the Titans. Remember the Titans is the reason why Wicked
was so good because he wanted to get that feeling
that you got when they scored a touchdown and remember
the Titans, how the audience stood up in a movie theater.

Speaker 1 (01:34:02):
He wanted that for Wicket.

Speaker 2 (01:34:04):
You know what I think about what you just said?

Speaker 1 (01:34:06):
What eat these bowls?

Speaker 2 (01:34:10):
All right? What a show? Joelle? Thank you for coordinating
all that. I know it was a tricky to get
it all scheduled.

Speaker 3 (01:34:18):
That was most impressive. And the fact that he stayed
on for as long as he stayed on too. He
stayed on for over an hour.

Speaker 2 (01:34:24):
So thank you to Marin Christine and John Chew and audience.
If you're listening and you're gonna be in La March
twenty ninth, come check out my benefit for the midnight
mission the Garden State twentieth Anniversary Concert. And if you
can't make it, buy a ticket about to stream it
on starting April sixth, You can buy the tickets right

(01:34:45):
now at veeps dot com. Every single cent of your
streaming ticket purchase goes to the charity. And also you
can buy merch there. The merchant is even available. This
is a little podcast insider scoop. The Merchant isn't even
available to buy yet. If you go to the veep site,
they've they've they've got it up there, so you can
buy it already, all right inside scool, I love you guys.

Speaker 1 (01:35:12):
What a great show. Eight stories.

Speaker 7 (01:35:16):
That show we made about a bunch of talks and
nurses and janitor. I said, here's the stories net you
all should know. So Ganda round here up, Yander, round
here up.

Speaker 1 (01:35:32):
Seat show wis