Jillian Turecki, Relationships are Projection

Jillian Turecki, aka the breakup fairy godmother, has been Zach's lifeline as he explores dating. Her unique approach to relationship advice, heavily influenced by her years as a yoga instructor, is to instill in her clients the ability to look into the mirror and confront their patterns with confidence. Zach and Donald discuss resentment, communication, and what makes a person feel safe in a relationship. Plus, a visit from CaCee. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now I'm ready to make some magic.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Okay, well, let's make some magic. Then hold on, how
you doing.

Speaker 1 (00:05):
What's going on with Daniel? We can't all fucking ever
meet together on this.

Speaker 3 (00:09):
Sorry, he's got responsibilities in New York. Do you want
to take care.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Of Well, let me tell you something. Back in the day, Joelle,
we used to have perfect attendance on this podcast.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
It's your fault. They gave us more responsibility. Like all
you guys are still good with those guys, here's additional responsibilities.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
That's what happens on TV shows. By the way, Bill
was telling me, He says, the reason TV shows are
so good at the beginning is you get an amazing
group of writers, and then the show gets popular, and
then every single writer gets poached off to go make
their own thing, which is good for them, give everybody
their flowers. But then the show takes a downturn because

(00:48):
you lost the original amazing posse that made the show great.
You're wondering why your favorite show changed, It's because it
got too popular and all the writers got poached.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
I'm just going through that right now, big time. The
Marvel Cinematic Universe. Everybody is leaving that bad boy, Yo.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
What do you mean what do you lose any actors.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Or the resident the executives, the creatives. All of them
are either leaving and or you know, being pushed aside.
I'm very interested to see what happens with that. Like
trying to recreate what they did in the first ten
years and do it again and then and the ten

(01:33):
years that follow is going to be very difficult.

Speaker 1 (01:36):
They're just going to look. I think they're going to
bring everybody back. All those people are going to make
offers they can't refuse, and then little by little you'll
have the whole og squad. I'm talking about actors.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
No, I feel that.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
No, I think I feel like they're going to bring
all the actors back too, and they will make offers
that they can't refuse. I mean Chris, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
I'm sure Scarlett. They're going to do something with Scarlet.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
There's no figure it out. They'll figure it out.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Got that dressed, Park, We kin.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
We got a lot to talk about before.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
I don't know where to begin. I mean, I don't
even know where to begin.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
First of all, all right, I'll tell you where we
can Where.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Could we possibly we haven't done this? And how long, Joelle,
we haven't gathered.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
A month, I think a full month.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
City the city almost burned to the ground. So we
audience were taping this on the twenty eighth of January,
and we had to take a pause obviously because of
the fires, which we're devastating here and very scary. And
this is the.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
First time, Joanni on that day, Bro, and we have
scheduled the day and fire started. Yeah, we were talking
about it on the show. How I could see the
smoke over the hill. Let me tell you something, that
shit got point eight miles away from me. Not only that,
the night after we spoke to Johnny, eight five something

(02:50):
like eight fires erupted all over California. It was ridiculous.
You had to evacuate your house too.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Bro, Yes, In fact, what was crazy, he was. I
was housing the Lawrence family Bill. Bill's family was very
close to the Palisades fire, and so I said, come
to my place please, cause I wanted to rescue them,
and I had the bedroom. So they came to mind.
And then we were sitting down to dinner and we

(03:21):
obviously glued to the TV like everyone, and we look
up and Runyon Canyon is on fire. Now, Runying Canyon
is very close to me, and we were like, we
got to get the fuck out of here. We were
running out of places to go, so I offered, yeah,
you did, you did, and we ended up going to
Andrew Watts Studio because it was deep in the valley,

(03:43):
and we kind of went there and regrouped to just
be like where do we go now? Because all the
hotel rooms were taken. It was really scary both But
you know, for those of you who don't know La,
the worst fire is the Altadena fire, and the past
and the Palisades fire the pretty far from each other.
So two different areas that are really far apart from

(04:05):
each other were burning to the ground.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Wiped out.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
We thought we were safe in where I lived, but
then the third big one started and thank god, the
firefighters were able to put that run fire out real quick,
and I was only we were only evacuated for a night.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Here it got real dicey where I was, like, this
fire was so close that at nighttime it seemed like
I was surrounded by like an orange glow, and that
got really scary. And then every neighborhood in my vicinity
got evacuated except for my little you know, when you
go to watch duty. Every section around my little section

(04:43):
got evacuated, and it just seemed like, oh, we're going
to get evacuated. Next, we packed the car up, we
packed all of our pets.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
How are you going to go?

Speaker 2 (04:52):
We were trying to figure it out. It seemed like
everywhere you could go, there was a fire blazing, you
know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Or well, I told you, worst case scenario, just come
to my house and we'll put you on couches.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
They had just put that fire out in your neighbor
I mean, in your area, you know what I mean.
And so that was it was, you know, it was dicey.
You know. Some people fled to Palm Spring, some people
fled to other friends' houses. Look, I know a lot
of people as well as you do, that have lost
their everything. You know what I mean. It's kind of crazy.

(05:25):
It's like you pick four people, right, and you know
four people that have lost all of their stuff. They
know four people and more that have lost all of
their stuff, whether it be their neighbors or people who
lived in the area.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, my friend lost everything everything, he said, he said.
The hardest thing is like, you know so much, it
is hard to grasp, he said. But the hardest thing
is that everything his kids have ever had, their favorite
stuffed animal, their favorite toy, their their a they got
on their paper in class, anything that they have any
memory of or growing up is gone.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
It was nuts, man, it was nuts. But thankfully the
firefighters were able to contain both fires. You know, it's
it's it's really amazing how California came together. People went
out and donated their clothes and donated food and donated water.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
And you know how badass to those those those fire
men and women, I mean those those those the ones
in the chopper, I mean all of them period, so
brave and just we just owe so much gratitude to them.
But watching those those videos of those planes and choppers
dumping water and those pilots flying into the smoke and fire,

(06:39):
it's just.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
These cansa doing millennium Falcon moves in D sixteens and
shit like that. Man, it was like, holy cow. Bro.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
Like now when you play you know, when you watch
study app for those who don't know, watch Dudy' is
this wildfire app that everyone in LA downloaded because it
showed you where the fires were. And then there's another
tier which I paid for, which it shows you exactly
where every firefighting aircraft was, which was really cool because
you could see like, oh, that's where they're throwing all
the attention. That must be the worst spot right there.

(07:10):
It was really fascinating and just so incredibly how I'm
blown away by how brave these men and women are.

Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yeah, it's amazing. It's it truly was amazing to see.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
How buy me the other day and in my neighborhood,
I was like a kid. I was like, I was
no different than a five year old. I was like
thumbs up. I was like I was like doing like
the fake bow. I was like doing this fucking thing
where you cheer on both sides of your head. I'm
sure that everyone has that response to them, but I
wanted to like hug them because my house survived. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
The crazy thing is is that people that did lose
homes are having a hard time finding new places to
live to rent, and they're prices and prices are gouged
and everything.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
Yeah, I mean people are that's going to be I
don't know where else people are gonna live. It's so crazy.
Let's move on to another talk about other topics. Go ahead.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
How about the Skeleton Crew. What a what a way
back Star Wars. Way to go, Star Wars.

Speaker 4 (08:13):
You did it.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
You came back from the depths of I'm drooling. That's
how much I loved it. It came back from the
depths of I don't know if I want to watch
Star Wars anymore. To now Star Wars is back. I
don't think they need to do anything else with any
other characters.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
This show.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Let me finish, let me let me finish. They should
focus on those four characters.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
The kids.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
That's the new group of Star Wars. That's the new
Star Wars. Right there, we had luke Lea, and Han
and Chewie. Now we got whim freaking U and the
rest of them. Let's stay there.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Bro, that was fired, okay, Joel, do you feel the
same as a Star Wars devote.

Speaker 3 (08:58):
It's wonderful that Star Wars is turned to its roots,
which is to make entertainment for to.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Use your volume and get all your.

Speaker 3 (09:07):
So I'm showing.

Speaker 4 (09:12):
I enjoy it.

Speaker 3 (09:14):
It's magical.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
I think I have a theory that Joel is on
another podcast and she has to play a different character
on that podcast. I'm going to be and then she
forgets to switch to high energy silly Joel. When she
comes on.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
This one, the code switch back to the hyperactive version.
You want to get over here, Okay, I'm gonna work up.
I think Star Wars' best decision was that they cast
you Law. That guy is magical and he does such
a good job of being both the sparkling, winking character
and also genuinely terrifying at some points, and to be

(09:49):
able to do both is really challenging, but to do
both in like seconds of each other is masterful. Uh yeah,
I think we're gonna see whim in the ray series.
That seems to be the prevailing thought.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
They did a good job.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
It was fun. I was entertained.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
I think kids really like it.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
They needed kids to come back to Star Wars, so
that's a positive. Androids around the corner. So it looks
like things are coming up good for Star Wars.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
I'll watch you andor yeah you will, fucking I gotta
say it. I'm watching a new show for those of
you who don't care about Star Wars. It's so good.
It's called The Pit.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Oh exact, you know, it's compared to they say, if
you like The Pit you'll love Scrubs, that's what they say.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Well, no, you're not serious. The Pit.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
I'm serious.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Well the Pit, just those are don't on the premise.
First of all, Noah Wiley is back. I don't know
why he was gone for so long. He is such
a good actor. And the premise of The Pit is
it's fifteen episodes, and each episode is an hour of
this doctor's life in a very intense er in Pittsburgh,

(11:03):
and so he's the lead doctor in the Er, and
all of these stories are unfolding, and every episode is
an hour in real time. And it is so good.
The acting is excellent, the characters are excellent, the stories
are so intriguing. You feel like it's building and building
and building to something. I highly highly recommend it. I

(11:25):
wish there were more. I wish I could binge it.
They're doing that fucking thing where it comes out every week.
I need them, I need them.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
I'm very happy man, me too.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
He's a very fucking actor.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Not only that, man, you know, he was the guy
from Er for a really long time and to find
a way to shed that character.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Well he is back to playing an er doctor. But
I didn't watch R but I don't know that it's
the same character. But he's such a fine actor.

Speaker 2 (11:54):
He is well deservant. There's that word again.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
He's deserve So we ever just decide if that's a
word or not.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
George, it's in the dictionary now it's in our dictionary,
because it's in our dictionary. But he is well deservant
of the of the hype, of the accolades, of the
of the mount of viewership that show is getting because
he is a very very fine actor. As you see
he is he is.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
And I gotta say I always root for people when
they somehow go away for whatever reason. I'm not saying
he wasn't working. I mean, I don't mean to say
he wasn't. I'm sure he was. But now he's back
in a very high profile HBO Max show. And I
always he's one of those actors that I go God,
I love watching him. He's so interesting. I root for him.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
There was a reason Er was great, and it wasn't
just George Clooney. He had a lot to do with it.
A lot.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
Well, this is John Wells as as well, Joelle. Didn't
he create Er?

Speaker 3 (12:54):
I believe. Let me just double check that factory.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
They're a good they're a good team. Put those two
in a hospital The R Show, and I'm in. I
never really watched The R to be honest. I know
it's extremely popular because it's been on for seventy five years,
but this is a different take, and I think actually
Scrubs fans who are listening you will love it because
obviously there's no comedy, but it's a I'm sure a

(13:17):
very very accurate telling of what it's like for these
people in an inner city trauma center. It's just so
realistic to me for someone who pretended to be a
doctor for a while. And it's a teaching hospital just
like Scrubs was, So you're seeing them try and attend
to all the patients but at the same time trying

(13:38):
to educate the younger kids. And I don't know, I
just find it fascinating. Fascinating.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
Okay, So Michael Crichton created er, is that correct?

Speaker 1 (13:51):
John Wells had nothing to do with the R.

Speaker 3 (13:53):
I'm not saying you had nothing to do with it,
but I think Michael Crichton created it.

Speaker 2 (13:58):
That is.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
John Wells I think was associated with it, but I
could be wrong. I've been wrong seven times in my life.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
Hey, Okay, so let's move on.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
What's the next topic, Donald, I'm still sober. Oh, I
got a dust off my slender supplause button.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
I don't know if I could hear it, but okay,
I'm not gonna lie. I did have a drink or
two while out eating sushi, okay, But for the most part,
how are you feeling? You know? What sucks is that
the appetite has come back and I didn't think and
I didn't even without ganja, even without ganja, I'm eating

(14:40):
more now than I did when I was smoking weed.
And that's the crazy thing.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Is how's your workouts going?

Speaker 2 (14:47):
I work out, you know, it's not every day. It
should be every day. I'm fifty, so I should be
working out every day. But I work out. It's still
But I think the amount of food I'm consuming, you know,
bypasses and shuts. Yeah, you're getting too many calories, way
too many calories.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
Is there a way you can, since you're on a
roll with everything else, is there a way you can,
you know, get it, get onto a good habit with
with not overeating.

Speaker 2 (15:13):
I think there is. I you know, I thought it
was cooking at home. It just so happens. That I
cook a lot of food and eat that ship. You know.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, I saw you posts like fried chicken or something.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
I made that ship and it was good. Baby. Let
me tell you something. That ship was good. Look at it.
I'm getting titties and everything. That ship was good.

Speaker 1 (15:35):
I don't play with them while we're while we're shooting
this video on this now, no one wants you know.

Speaker 2 (15:41):
That's the that's that's the sign of you doing the
right thing. When your woman does this, when you're hitting it,
you're doing the right things.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
For those grabbing his breasts and playing with his nipples,
I'll have to ask if that's what.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
Uh, let's not do that. I don't do that. I
don't think. But yeah, man, that's what I'm.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Proud of you. That's very good I am. I'm I'm
doing pretty good myself. I took a tiny break because
I went skiing and I had a couple of drinks skiing,
But but I'm for the most part continuing my mostly
boozless twenty five.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
Good for you, nice, stay sober.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Well. I'd feel so much better when I don't put
that shit in my body personally.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
You know what I'm noticing now when I eat shitty food.
Now I feel bad after eating shitty food, like my
body doesn't respond to it.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Well, your body doesn't want that shit.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Yeah, that these are things I'm learning.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
I went skiing, which was a lot of fun. I
went to We were at Sundance, but we didn't really
go to much Sundance stuff because the secret trick about
Sundance if you don't have a movie there and you're
not going to see movies, is that the ski mountains
are empty so you can ski and all the people
are at the fest. So I did pretty good for
a guy who skis once or twice a year. I

(17:05):
think I'm pretty decent.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Cross country downhill.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Were talking downhill downhill skiing along with a bunch of folks,
you know, Donald.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
All White obviously, because.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
That's just really fun being clever. And Michelle came.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
Michelle went, can she skate?

Speaker 1 (17:25):
She didn't ski, but she came.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah exactly. She was like, I'm gonna hang out. I'm
gonna hang out, but I ain't going out in that
cold ass weather.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
She had fits for days.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
I bet she did.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
I bet you could see the fits.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
You know, you know how I feel about the Selle
Michelle Fine.

Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yes, she is fine, and she has a lot of fits,
so she she came prepared with Every time we went out,
she had a better fit on them than I was,
just like sweatpants anything.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
She was like, no, no, no, this is my skiing outfit.
You're going no, but.

Speaker 4 (18:05):
Here, guys, all right.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
That's invite Jillian stories.

Speaker 4 (18:11):
I'm not sure we made about a bunch of nurses.
I said, he's a story. So YadA ra do here,
yeada here.

Speaker 1 (18:33):
Jillian to Reki is an extremely gifted, wise woman when
it comes to dating advice. I just want to start
off by saying, if you are trying to date or
looking for love and all the wrong places, you should
be following Jillian Toreki on Instagram because she drops knowledge
bombs all day long. Welcome back to the program, Jillian.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Like I was saying, you fucked him up?

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Well, how are you? How did how did she funck
me up? I mean I was trying to amaze her advice.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
And you did and it was in a good way,
you know what I mean. It was like you went
from not really you know, not really certain on what
it was you wanted or how you wanted it and
all of that stuff to being very specific. You were
very specific, and you were very specific about your actions too.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Now, Jillian has a new book, your first book, right, Yeah,
it's my first book, your first book, and it's called
It Begins with You.

Speaker 3 (19:28):
Now.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
If you're dating, if you're out there, if you're dispirited,
if you're frustrated, I highly recommend getting this book. I'm
going to read it myself.

Speaker 5 (19:36):
Or even if you're in a relationship or a marriage.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
Okay, because it helps you keep it going in a
successful way, or it.

Speaker 5 (19:43):
Just helps you if you're having any sort of relationship issue,
if you're in a relationship and struggling, as well as
if you're dating.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
I like the title because I believe in that. I
think one of the things that Donald's alluding to is
that I had to look at how I was behaving
in terms of how I was showing up and how
I was communicating. Because for personally, I think one of
my biggest I'll just share openly right off the bat
is I get afraid to speak my mind and what

(20:13):
I'm really feeling, and I hold it in and I
walk on eggshells and I don't want to cause a problem,
and then I hold in all these feelings. And then
someone told me a great quote which was that anger
it turns into resentment when you hold it inside, and
then resentment held in for too long turns into depression.

(20:34):
And that really kind of landed with me because I
was just being a whim about communicating. Right, I'll let
you take it from there. But that's the title of
your book. It begins with you.

Speaker 5 (20:45):
Yeah, So bravo for I mean, the whole point is
to kind of I want to encourage people to find
the courage to look in the mirror and ask themselves
the really difficult question, how might I be contributing to
that which I say I don't want? And that that

(21:10):
can be applied to every aspect of life. I specifically
apply it to romantic relationships. And so you know, we
all have our stuff. We none of us go into
a relationship perfect. We all have we all are afraid
that we're not enough in some way. And that is

(21:30):
not that fear isn't the same for everyone. It exists
on the spectrum, but there's no place other than a
romantic situation, a relationship or dating scenario where we are
not going to be confronted with that fear that somehow
we are not enough more. That's where it's going to happen.

(21:52):
So you know, when you refer to I hold it in.
First of all, that's a very that's a very common
NT narrative with men. It's not I mean women do
it too, but I do notice a lot of men
in relationships there's a there's a fear of disappointing. There's
a fear of if I express my feelings, am I

(22:14):
going to look like a whimp, you know? Or am
I going to be heard or understood. We all want
to be heard and understood, and so this idea of well,
I don't express my feelings, so I walk around on
eggshells like typically, and I would imagine this is the
case for you, and for a lot of people. We'll say,
well then it's the other person, right, And look, you

(22:37):
may be one might be in a relationship where the
other person is more of the problem. It's I don't
really love this platitude that's out there, like, yes the
problem is me, you know, from a Taylor Swift song
or whatever. But it's just that if you want you
have to be the change that you want to see
in your relationships. So what are your patterns what are

(22:58):
your patterns from how you choose to how you show up?
And by the way, here's some really important insight for you.
Everything that you do in a relationship that you're like,
maybe I shouldn't be doing that, you're doing it because
you don't want to lose love. So the intention is
always pure. The intention is always to self protect and

(23:19):
to self preserve.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
I think a lot of times for me, it's that
I don't want to I don't want to cause waves
I had. You know, my father had quite a temper
when I was a child, and I think I have
some trauma from arguing. Not that not that I hit.
My relationships are on the level of arguments, are on
the level of my father screaming at me as a child.

(23:42):
But I think that one thing I've sort of looked
at in therapy is really wanting to avoid confrontation just
because I had this childhood trauma from even a mild argument,
even a mild amount of tension, my anxiety rises and
then probably obviously applies to other areas of my life.
But since we're here talking to you about relationships, and
so I found when I was taking a look at

(24:03):
stuff partially inspired by you, that I yeah, that I
was avoiding any kind of even the most mild confrontation,
just to not go there and not to have uncomfortable conversations,
which is so fucking unhealthy because the more you swallow it,

(24:23):
the more you keep it inside, you become very resentful
to the person. Obviously this applies to friendships and family
members as well, but let's talk about relationships. You become
resentful to your partner and they haven't really done anything
necessarily because you're the one who isn't having the courage
to communicate correct.

Speaker 5 (24:42):
Yes, absolutely, and I'll add something else. And this is
a really interesting paradox. In your attempt to sort of
keep the peace and to not want to create any
waves or not have. You know, you want to avoid
the confrontation, so you go into a little bit avoidance.
You actually become when you do that, unsafe to your partner,

(25:06):
because what makes a person safe in a relationship is
always always being upfront about where you stand and where
the other person stands in your heart. And when you're
avoiding the conversations, you are, in your own way, avoiding
the truth. And if you avoid the truth, then people

(25:29):
can never really feel totally secure with you, because then
they think, well, number one, they think, can I can
I have an argument with this person and know that
it's going to be okay? Can I trust that this
person is actually going to tell me how they feel?
Or are they just going to tell me what I

(25:50):
want to hear? And so these conversations. The way to
reframe it is, look, I don't like it. I mean
I don't want to have these difficult conversations either, But
you do it in service of the relationship. So if
you if you stop thinking it from from the perspective of, oh,
I'm doing this because I need to speak my truth

(26:11):
or I'm doing this because they need to know my needs.
If we can remove it from that sort of selfish
lens which we tend to know, even the most giving
and loving of us can tend to be selfish in
these scenarios because we are so afraid. If we can
instead say, you know what, what is what is the

(26:34):
best thing for my relationship with this person? The truth? Okay?
So if I know it's the truth, now it's about
how do I deliver it? How do I express it?

Speaker 1 (26:44):
How?

Speaker 5 (26:44):
Then there's the art of and the science behind having
that conversation.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
A man, that's what I said.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
You know, that's that's that's I find in my relationship.
We don't have a hard time talking about anything until
it turns into the kids, you know what I mean,
And we have I think that's where and part of
it is like, all right, their kids, and you know,
some of these things, they'll grow out of. Some of

(27:12):
these things we have to address now. But for some reason,
when it gets to the kids, i'm very Maybe it's
because I'm afraid to have the conversation about them, but
i'm very very okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, whatever, yeah, whatever,
you know what I mean, Whatever you want to do,
whatever it is you want to do, let's we'll do that.
And sometimes it's not what I want to do. But

(27:37):
you know, I don't want to fuck my kids up,
you know what I mean? And I know she doesn't
want to fuck the kids up either, And so.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
So you're saying that you're not are you saying just
so I'm clear that you're not fully expressed about what
you're feeling about what you want to do with the
kids because you're like, I don't want to suck them up.
I'll just yield to whatever you're saying.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Absolutely, yeah, and that's not healthy. And I know it's
not healthy, and I see myself doing it, and it's like,
you know, I you know, I get short tempered when
we talk about the kids. I get, you know what
I mean, Like it's a bunch of things.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
It's kind of a similar thing, Donald, It's kind of
like avoiding, avoiding something challenging because you're like, I don't
I don't want to. I don't want to fuck something up.

Speaker 5 (28:14):
I mean, what we're all talking about right now is anxiety.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
Absolutely absolutely, you know that's fear and fear of yeah,
and a fear. I mean, it's very scary. I know.
I know it's different when you're in a marriage. I've
never been one, but I think it's very it's very
scary to be vulnerable and trust someone on the level
that you do when you're in a relationship. And I

(28:39):
think that those of us who are anxious folks try
and avoid, try and avoid, and that's unhealthy.

Speaker 5 (28:49):
Uh yeah, it's unhealthy. And you know, it's just it's
not helpful, right, And I think it's about seeing it
from the other perspective on how that rather than just
labeling it as unhealthy, it's let me see how an
alternative would actually just benefit everyone and it doesn't actually

(29:12):
have to be that scary. Yeah, but yeah, And I
think that a lot of people avoid these hard conversations
because maybe they're afraid of disappointing someone. I mean, we're
all just afraid of disappointing. We're afraid of you know.
I don't want anything to disrupt the peace and the flow,

(29:34):
So it's just easier for me to just say yes.
And look, I mean there's some value to saying yes
a lot of the time and not creating a bunch
of confrontation. It's a balance.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
You got to pick your time too, you right, Yeah,
you do.

Speaker 5 (29:47):
Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
My therapist was saying that, like one of the things
he does in his relationship is they'll just they'll have
a very kind way of saying, now's not the time, obviously,
but but when the time is right, let's just clear
this up so we don't have this thank thing in
the air. And I thought that was really healthy.

Speaker 5 (30:07):
Yeah it is.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Let's take a break, we'll be right back after these
fine words. How do you, Jillian advise people to who
are listening to this and go, Okay, you're right, I
have been holding it in. I haven't been fully expressing
myself to my partner in these ways. How do you

(30:30):
begin to approach that? Because you want to do it
in the right way your partner, you also have to
have a partner that's willing to It goes without saying,
but let's say it. You have to have a partner
that's willing to to here into these yeah, well, to
go into these conversations with you. You know, they have
to be willing to want to work on your communication
or whatever whatever your conundrum is in your relationship. If

(30:51):
they're not down to participate in evolving, then that tells
you that you sort of hit a dead end, haven't you.

Speaker 5 (30:57):
Oh yeah, I mean both people really. I mean, there's
the way that you broach a topic, you know. I mean,
you're not really going to get a great response from
someone if you're like, we need to talk about this
right now, and you you you you, you right, You're
not going to get a good response.

Speaker 1 (31:12):
Now, that's not gonna work out.

Speaker 5 (31:13):
Well, it's not going to work out well. But yeah,
I mean, look, I think that one of the most underrated,
two of the most underrated relationship skills is one being
able to give feedback with care and to being able
to receive that feedback and to have a conversation about it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
Yeah, talk more about that, about about having a situation
having without a counselor, because I know some people get
to a point where they have a counselor sort of
helping them moderate that moderating their discussion. But if someone's
not there yet, how do you approach it with your
partner in such a way that you want to pivot

(31:53):
to better communication without them feeling like you're attacking them.

Speaker 5 (31:58):
Why don't you give me an exact sample of something
and I will give you a script. How does that
sound like?

Speaker 2 (32:04):
Maybe?

Speaker 1 (32:04):
Donald, I'm not in a relationship right now, so maybe Donald?

Speaker 5 (32:07):
Can you've been in relationships?

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yes? I have? Donald, you want to go first?

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Sure. So here's the thing. We have conversations sometimes about
how the kids talk to us, and it's very clear
that the reason why they talk to us the way
they talk to us is because of how we talk
to each other and how we talk to them as well.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (32:27):
Are they being rude?

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Oh? My kids can be one of the rudest kids,
you know what I mean. Like, as a matter of fact,
if you wouldn't mind, I would like to get my
wife to be no.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
No, no, no, no no. We don't have time for
her right now.

Speaker 2 (32:39):
She's not gonna say get out of here, man, I'm
gonna go get.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
Her Jesus all right, we have to play a theme song, Kasey,
come down here.

Speaker 2 (32:49):
I don't know nothing about raising these schools, so tell
me what to do. Do nothing about raising these kids.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
And that's what it is, all right? There she is,
this is Jillian.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Are. I feel like we have great communication, but when
it comes to the kids, that's when I kind of, uh,
whatever you want to do, babe, however it is you.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, Well, we're talking about communication, and Jillian is a
dating and a couple of communication experts, and we're talking
about how you guys can get in arguments about how
to handle it when the kids are are rude to you.
And she was going to guide Donald through a through
a way that you guys can communicate it in a
more healthy way.

Speaker 5 (33:33):
Now, well, here's something that's really helpful for kids. If
I might share pick three things, three really attainable things,
things that they can attain, three things that they need
to do, which is sort of like a rule in
order for them to I don't know, keep their phone
for the week. But it's just three things, so it's
not a whole list of a bunch of rules, but

(33:56):
just three things and things that they can actually accomplish.
So chores, yeah, but only three, but only three things,
like you know you have on Mondays. I'm just this
is so random. On Mondays you have to take out
the trash, okay, and when you get home from school,
you have to spend twenty minutes in your room chilling out,

(34:19):
and then you can go do whatever, or you have
to do twenty minutes of homework between this and this,
and then the third one is something again easy for
them to attain. Not so many rules. I don't know
how old you're, how old are your kids?

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Eleven and nine?

Speaker 5 (34:37):
So not so many, not so many rules. We don't
have many rules, but you have to have the three you.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Have to have. Problem.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Maybe maybe that's the problem is that there's no there's
no rules, so.

Speaker 5 (34:47):
You just have to make it very simple for them,
like you know, mommy and daddy and daddy and I
you know, discuss this and you know there are three
things that needs to be done and this is them
and make sure it's just really really simple, really clear,
and then if they do that for like, let's say
three weeks or at the end of the week, they

(35:07):
get some sort of reward.

Speaker 6 (35:09):
Okay, no, I'm all for structure.

Speaker 5 (35:13):
This one's the reward system works very well well.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Donald was mentioning before he came on Casey that you
guys sort of arguing yourselves about how to handle when
the kids are speaking disrespectfully to you. Yeah, what are
your thoughts versus Donald's.

Speaker 6 (35:30):
Well, I don't know what Donald said, but what I
think the problem is is that we're all together all
the time, so there's no they obviously they're good kids.
I'm they're not.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
I've seen bad kids.

Speaker 6 (35:44):
I don't have bad kids really, but but they do
start speaking to us as if we're all peers because
we're all together all the time, and I like, for instance,
our daughter did some My daughter's been sick and I've
been home, stuck in the house for three days literally
nursing her, coddling her, waiting on her hand and foot,

(36:08):
and then last night she got her homework and just
flipped out on me and attacked me because of her homework.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
She attacked all of us.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
She attacked all of us, but directed towards me.

Speaker 6 (36:18):
And you know, I'm like, you can go to bed
if you're if you don't want to hang out and
be respectful. She was like, I bet so she goes
to bed at six o'clock and she will power through
it the whole night. But then she started coming downstairs
and being really disrespectful. And I told Donald, I said,
you need to go upstairs and have a talk with
her about how she's speaking to me, because I didn't

(36:40):
feel like me speaking to her at that moment was
going to help. I had already said what I needed
to say.

Speaker 5 (36:45):
He was like, what, I'm so, here's okay, So here's
here's the most important thing.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
But it boiled. But that boiled down to I don't
want to go upstairs and say some shit that fucks
her up, you know what I mean, Like, I don't
want to upstairs and punish her. Uh, you know, I
don't want to raise my voice and yell at her
and stuff like that.

Speaker 5 (37:06):
You don't have to raise your voice.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
Because I don't think that's gonna I mean, I can
do that with my boy, I could do that all
the time, but with my daughter I feel like there's
a there's a.

Speaker 5 (37:16):
It's the same. Well, I mean, Zach just shared that
his father yelled at him all the time and that
what that created, So we don't want it's not about
yelling at your kids ever. Really, I means, here's the thing.
When it comes to child rearing, the most important thing,
and when it comes to actually, when it comes to
any relationship. This is a marriage, a romantic relationship. This

(37:37):
boils down to all the principles in my book Romantic
Only exactly. It's all about managing your internal state. So
when we're triggered, right, whatever it is, someone we're dating
says something or does something, our kids says is you know,
being fresh and says something or does something, or a

(37:59):
parent or partner, whatever, spouse, it's always about managing our
This is not easy, by the way, at all, and
you will you will fail, we will all fail. There's
great magic in saying to the person you love, whoever
that person is. I just lost control over there, and

(38:19):
I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry that it came out
like that. That was not cool. But because it's really
about managing our internal states, and so much of all
relationships is projection, it's you are not saying, doing and
being the way that I want you to be, and

(38:43):
that makes me feel very out of control. This one
hundred percent pertains to parenting that makes me feel out
of control, that makes me feel anxious that somehow I'm
going to be messing up or have some you know,
messed up kid, or I'm you know, I'm not going
to be enough for my partner. But we have to
manage our projections all the time. Whoever you are in

(39:04):
relationship with, regardless again of who that person is, they
are autonomous beings with their own brains, their own mouths,
their own everything, and sometimes they're going to do stuff
that we are going to take really personally, but it's
not personal. And so just so as not to take

(39:25):
this into the direction of how to child rear, because
I know that's that's not the focus of today of
today and it's you know, but what I will say
that I really believe is invaluable advice is manage your
internal state. And if your child is acting out, manage
your internal state. That doesn't mean that you allow behavior

(39:47):
that is unacceptable, but just keep managing your reaction. Maybe
there's something going on with her or him in that moment,
maybe they're hungry, maybe there's some hormonal change happening, because
the based on their ages, I would imagine there's a
lot starting to happen.

Speaker 6 (40:03):
There's a lot between my age and her age.

Speaker 5 (40:06):
Yeah, all right, you got yeah, Perry.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Pause.

Speaker 5 (40:13):
And then you know someone who's like going to be
menstruating soon or whatever it is. So it's like, so
have a little under mindfulness around that and how that
can be adding to the dynamic and you need to
be mindful of that.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Well, that's what I was worried about too. Yesterday when
you were like, go talk to I was in my mind,
I was like, what if this is something that you know,
I don't really know nothing about.

Speaker 5 (40:38):
Like, but in that moment, she just wants you to
have her back because she feels so powerless.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
Got it?

Speaker 5 (40:44):
And yeah, And so that's what's happened.

Speaker 6 (40:46):
You not controlling your internalness towards me. I took it
as I don't feel like getting up off the couch
to go handle this problem.

Speaker 5 (40:55):
But the reality is what's happening is that his avoidance
of that is fear. In that moment, she's wanting a
protector's an ally, she's feeling helpless and hopeless.

Speaker 1 (41:07):
So now it's interesting. Sorry, sorry interrupt you. But what's
interesting is just as you take this apart and having
not even be about the child, it's about two people
that have totally different stories going on in their heads. Yes,
and then they're both upset because they're living something that
isn't on the same page and that moment and that
moment they can't necessarily communicate that. But now as we

(41:27):
analyze it, you go, oh, this is why you're both
upset because you want this and you have different expectations
of what this moment should should be and you're not
on the same page.

Speaker 5 (41:37):
Yes, I think that's very well said. And so that's
a big and that's actually a chapter in the book.
The mind is a battlefield, so you have to be
really mindful of how the mind can work. Oh, he
doesn't love me, he doesn't care. He's just sitting on
the couch. He's not my protector. Oh my god. You
know she's going to put me in a position where
I'm going to like completely have this. You know, I'm

(41:57):
going to interfere with my relationship with my daughter and
then I'm going to mess something up. So it begins
with having that kind of vulnerable, transparent conversation with you.

Speaker 1 (42:08):
Right, That's what I was going to say. That's what
I want to lead to. Is that so in the
ideal world and these two people the next day, when
things are calm, would get together and say, hey, can
we talk a minute for a second about last night?
I felt that, you know, this is what I felt
without making the other person wrong, right, is what I say.

Speaker 5 (42:25):
The story that I'm telling myself about this, the way
that I perceive this. I know that this could be
this could be a story that I'm making up. My
experience though, and how I was feeling was this. And
then the other person can say, you know, validate, validate,
I validate, validate, I hear you, validate, validate, validate because

(42:46):
a lot of men, of course, deserve validation, but understand
that women definitely go through life with a lot of
people not validating their experience. So just validate and then
you know, and you have to validate his as well,
of course.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Yeah, but then you are able to say, then you
can validate and say I hear you. I don't want
you to feel that way. My experience of that, my
story was totally different. This is what I felt. Yes,
and that's why we had this argument. But so you're
not putting it on the other person to say you're wrong,
you did X, Y, and Z. You're saying, let me
tell you full responsibility or responsibility for your feelings.

Speaker 5 (43:21):
This is what I felt for your story, for your story.

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Yes, I want to take full responsibility for my story.
This is what I felt. Nothing. I'm not putting anything
on you. This is what I felt, and I want
to be open with you about why I felt the
way I felt. And then ideally, the partner says, Okay,
I hear you. I can see why you would feel
I didn't see that at the time. I can see
why you would feel that my story isn't exactly the same.

(43:46):
Let me tell you what I was feeling. And then
the partner right, and then the partner goes okay, and
then then then then then there's you both feel seen.

Speaker 6 (43:53):
But yeah, so you know, had had I not come
up here and got on this zoom or this podcast.

Speaker 2 (43:59):
We would have never known.

Speaker 6 (44:00):
I would have never, in a million years ever assumed
that this fool was scared to screw something up with right.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
But this is the heart of the problem. Is that
then you would maybe you would have resentment towards Donald
for not helping you out and.

Speaker 6 (44:18):
In all this, and then it snowballs into this resentment
and then anger, and then he gets pissed that I'm
just not respondib to him at all, and then the
whole house is walking on eggshells because Dad. Because of that,
Donald's in a bad mood.

Speaker 5 (44:34):
Yes, exactly. So the beautiful thing about this conversation right
now is that you're learning about something about each other,
and you're learning about like certain fears and everyone we
all have a blueprint and of how the world should be.
We all have a parental blueprint. So if we become parents,
we have these beliefs and this story about what's and

(45:00):
make us a good father or a good mother, Like
we come into relationships with this, and so the more
that we can have these kind of conversations about like
what does this mean to you? What are your fears
around it? Like what's your biggest fear about being a dad,
and have these kind of conversations so they're not necessary.
They don't always have to be conversations where you're repairing.

(45:21):
They are conversations that create more emotional intimacy, and the
whole point of a relationship is to deepen emotional intimacy
between you and another human being, which helps you grow,
which helps you feel more connected, which helps you feel
more seen. Because anyone can have sex, anyone can have
superficial relationships, but a relationship, a committed relationship, this is

(45:46):
really what it's all about. And that's why I'm so
passionate about. You know, don't commit to the person who
you can't do this with. And also you have to
be willing to step outside your comfort zone to really
open yourself up, because you can't just wait for the
other person to do it to give you that invitation.

(46:06):
You really have to see right away is these are
the building blocks of a relationship well, and also early on.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
In courtship and dating, you need to I see now
it's so important to say, are you down for this
kind of relationship? If you're not interested in being overly
communicative and in working on it on this level, or
if we need it in couple therapy, whatever it is,
reading reading a book or two, or if you're not

(46:33):
interested in having that kind of of digging deep with me,
then you're probably not the one for me, because this
is the kind of thing I want to have.

Speaker 5 (46:42):
Yes, absolutely, as long as you make it safe for
the other person to be able to open up to you.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
We did all of that stuff before we got married,
and in the early stages of marriage. I think as
the kids get older, I think that's where.

Speaker 6 (46:59):
Well, there's there's two of us, there's two bees in
the house, and there's two Donald's in the house.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
So it's very like.

Speaker 5 (47:08):
And also, stage of life matters. So it's the stage
of life of your relationship. It's the stage of life
where you are in your personal life hormonally, it's the
stage of life of course, of your kids. Parenting a
five year old is not the same thing as parenting
a twelve year old. Yeah, and not the same thing
as parenting an eighteen year old or a twenty year old.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
All right, Casey, we're going to kick you out.

Speaker 6 (47:30):
That's amazing.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Thank you. You can help.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
I'm just saying, man, we're lucky that we do a
podcast like this, Zach.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
This has helped out at.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
All of a sudden.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Alright, you guys have really good You guys have really
good you guys have really good sex tonight. Okay, you
can thank me.

Speaker 5 (47:53):
Thank you, Zach, nice to meet you, nice to meet easily.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
Jillian, Thank you. I think we just saved their marriage.
And when we come a bit, I want to talk
more about dating when we're back with Jillian because her
book and her things she posts and says on Instagram,
I think are so helpful for dating. So I'll be
right back after these words. I've noticed one of the

(48:21):
chapters of your books or I don't know if they're
chapters or you call them truths. Yes, lust is not
the same thing as love.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
That is absolutely correct.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
No, I know, but I want to just I want
to tease that out a bit because I think that
many of us gets so entranced with someone and it's
and it's just about the exciting titillation of being attracted
to them sexually. Yes, and then and then that ends
or or or or Peter's out a bit, and then

(48:55):
you're left with something that doesn't have a good foundation
because it was just sexual attraction, right.

Speaker 5 (48:59):
Yes, a lot of people confuse the two. You know,
when we first meet someone and there's an attraction there,
and there's and you know, when we're really excited about
someone in the beginning, it's not just sexual. Usually when
we get very excited about someone, there's different levels of chemistry.
It's not just sexual. We're also we feel like we

(49:19):
feel like there's an intellectual connection too, Like to get
excited about someone truly beyond oh I want to sleep
with them, you have to feel connected to them. And
the thing is when we feel that excitement in the beginning,
they awaken something inside of us, which is basically a liveness.

(49:41):
And if we have we if that sense of novelty
and adventure and aliveness has been dormant for a long time,
and then we meet someone and they awaken that in us,
it's a really fun, beautiful thing. But we think, oh,
they are the reason why I'm happy, and actually that's
not true. That you will it's very easy to get

(50:04):
tricked into believing that your happiness rests in the hands
of this other person when you are in lust because
everything is so exciting. But love is love is trust,
love is safety and love it can also be passion
in all of these things, but love is something that

(50:25):
you build with someone and love real love is you know,
when we're in the lust phase, and a lot of
people get addicted to that. It's very immature because Basically,
it's saying I am in love. I'm in love. I
put that in big air quotes with my projected fantasy

(50:47):
of who I believe or what I want a woman
to be or what I want a man to be,
yea and so. And then as soon as things get
you know, more real, there's emotional intimacy. We're seeing each
other shortcomings and depth and nuanced. A lot of people
will say, hmm, you're not perfect, I don't want anything.
I'll pull away.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
Yeah, right, And I think that's worse. That's even worse
these days with the apps and everything, that everyone's just
like absolute.

Speaker 5 (51:15):
I think I think yeah, I think yeah. I think
it definitely plays a role. I think that it's very
easy to forget each other's humanity and all this. And
I think a lot of things play a role. I
think this. I think romanticism plays a role. I think movie,

(51:37):
film and television, literature and art can play a role
of what of what love is or isn't you know?
It's like the romantic comedy shows you all the all
the craziness in the beginning of getting the person or
being rescued by the person, and then but they don't

(51:59):
show you like you're in right, there's no examples of that.
And love, to me is what is is a choice.
Love is something that you know. Lust is easy, it's
something that we just feel and almost have no control over.
But love is something that is very much a verb,
and it's something that you give. It's not just something

(52:21):
that you receive. And a lot of people say, well,
I love this person. No you didn't. You felt like
crazy attracted to them, you didn't even know them.

Speaker 1 (52:31):
Yeah, you make up a whole story of who they are,
even before you get to know who they are.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
And then okay, and then.

Speaker 5 (52:36):
You get addicted to that story of who they.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
Are, right, and you're like, I'm I'm I think, especially
when you're single and you kind of get excited about someone,
your one's brain can all of a sudden, just like
quickly write a script that they're the most amazing person
and are all these things. And then little by little
you're like, oh, all of that, all of that I
made up myself. Yeah, that's none of that's real. And
now I'm disappointing because who they truly yard doesn't align

(53:00):
with what I may know.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
There's only one movie. I'm sorry to cut you all off,
there's only one movie that I really believe at the
end of the day, when when it ends that they
were happily ever after, and that's when Harry met Sally.
But that's just me.

Speaker 5 (53:14):
Okay, well you know, yeah, well because they were friends
for so long beforehand, and that's why.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
And there was nothing but great communication between the two
of them and for so long, and friendship and right
and genuine friendships.

Speaker 5 (53:29):
Genuine friendship.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
They found communication before LUs, which is interesting.

Speaker 5 (53:35):
Yes, they found friendship before Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah, Like I said this all the time, my best
friend is my wife.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
You know I was your best friend.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
Well you are, you are my best friend, but you
know she trumps you. But but that's just because.

Speaker 5 (53:48):
Friendship is very important for long term relationship. And but
it'll always be a balance of friendship and passion and
keeping the passion alive. But I will say that a relationship,
it's very hard to make a relationship last over the
long term if there isn't friendship there.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:07):
And also us to evolve, right, because we're all going
and changing, and you have to be willing.

Speaker 5 (54:12):
To willing to evolve, and also willingness to accept the
other's evolution and their pace. And to you know, everything's
a balance. If you grow too quickly, that can be
very destabilizing for a relationship. If you're not growing at all,
then you can get very bored, and boredom is not
good for a relationship.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Boredom is the worst thing for I think if you
if you don't evolve.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
At all, try new things or do things.

Speaker 2 (54:41):
What are you doing?

Speaker 5 (54:42):
You know?

Speaker 1 (54:43):
I have another truth, Let me just finish.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
My business manager just recently said to us, you know,
you know, you guys are spending money the wrong way.
You know, go make memories and stuff like that. You
guys are spending money on food and eating and stuff
like that. Go out there and enjoy jo you're enjoy
the kids, enjoy enjoy you know, time with each other.

(55:09):
And that really hit me hard. It was like, holy shit,
you're absolutely right. I'm sitting here worried about not spending
this money and not you know, losing this money. But
what I really need to be worried about is creating
memories and creating and evolving and creating creating experiences experiences
positive not exactly positive experiences with my family and I

(55:33):
and I wasn't doing that, and we weren't doing that.

Speaker 5 (55:36):
You know, couples need dopamine enhancing experiences together, especially if
they've been together for a long time. They need to
do things that gets the quarters all going and triggers
the dopamine, the excitement, because there's two there's two aspects
to a relationship. There's the serotonin aspect, which is you're

(55:56):
nesting together, and some and some couples are more more
lean more towards that. Like there's nesting, there's the friendship,
there's the coziness. But then there's dopamine, which is like,
we need to have some new experiences, we need to
have some fun, we need to have a little novelty.
And so I think there's you were always sort of
straddling that line between those two things.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
You posted a quote on your Instagram. I wanted to
just mention to love someone long term is to attend
the thousand funerals of the people they used to be.

Speaker 5 (56:32):
Not my quote, that's Heidipri, But yes I did post it.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
I know it's not your quote, but it's beautiful and
I think it's very it's kind of what we're talking
about about being long for the ride of the evolution.

Speaker 5 (56:43):
Yes, it's very true. I mean, if you think of
a long term relationship, there's going to be You're gonna
have many relationships within one relationship. And unfortunately, there's just
not a lot of examples of enduring love. We have
a lot of examples of falling in love, a lot
of examples, like I said in art, but we don't

(57:07):
have a lot of examples of enduring love. And there
is a tremendous opportunity to grow spiritually. I mean, look,
just even the conversation that we had today, the two
of you recognizing oh it's the story in my head,
like that can yield now a conversation between the two
of you that has the potential to be to deepen

(57:29):
your bond, to deepen your friendship, to deepen your love.

Speaker 1 (57:32):
Yeah, Jillian and I can counsel you together if you want.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
We're very you know, what about what about falling in
and out of love but then back in love again?
Does that exist in this whole conversation?

Speaker 5 (57:49):
In long term relationships, what causes people to fall out
of love is the loss of passion, right, It's like,
what's the difference between loving someone and being in love
with them? Is have it is? Passion is feeling passionate
towards them, And yes, you can restore passion in a

(58:09):
long term relationship. And so if you feel like you're falling,
If people feel like they're falling out of love, typically,
typically what that means is they there's a little boredom
that's set in and they need a little bit of
dopamine activities and they have to do some exciting things together.
Maybe one or both of them need to grow individually
or together, but there's certainly a way to revive that

(58:32):
if their foundation is strong enough between two people.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
What if it's not a long term relationship. What if
it's a relationship that happened for like, let's say a year,
then they break up, and what.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
If it's your side piece? Is that what you're asking?

Speaker 2 (58:47):
No, No, I'm not saying it's your side piece.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
I'm saying, what if someone were to have a side
piece and the side piece relationship isn't going that well,
but you want to keep it going Hypothetically.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
I'm sincere about this. Is there a conversation where, because
I've seen it happen before, where somebody they were together,
they broke up, they got back together, and now their
bond is stronger than it's ever been, you know what
I mean? And I'm not I'm not one that believes
in I'm not one that believes in going backwards.

Speaker 5 (59:19):
But you know, it can happen. It can happen if
both people take one hundred percent responsibility for their experience
and they want to go they want to do two
point zero of their relationship and make it better. I mean,
lots of things are possible for you.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
What's your advice on people who are listening? It might
be thinking like, oh, should I go back? Should I
miss that person? Should should I try and repair or you?
Or do you think that that usually ends poorly?

Speaker 5 (59:49):
It really just depends. I mean more times than not,
the answer is no, you shouldn't go back. But there
are instances where people say, you know, I did a
lot of self reflecting and I realized where how I
contributed to whatever didn't work, and I really want to
give this another go, and and but you just have

(01:00:10):
to be able to take full responsibility. Often I don't
really think you should go back to the person who
completely betrayed you and broke your heart. I don't think
you should go back to the person who mistreats you,
and by mistreatment, I mean manipulation, obviously, if there's any violence,
But anyone who made you feel less than and I'm

(01:00:35):
not talking about you had an argument and then you
know you're you feel a little insecure. I'm talking about you.
You never knew where you stood with someone, You never
felt good enough for someone.

Speaker 1 (01:00:46):
The person has to be outside of let's just say,
for this example, outside of abuse and outside of infidelity. Yes,
the person has to be willing to work on the
thing they have to. They have to be willing to
show up differently.

Speaker 5 (01:01:04):
Yes, But I don't believe in giving someone who consistently
made you feel not good enough a second chance.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
I heard, well, that's a great, that's a great, and
now it's another.

Speaker 5 (01:01:16):
Not everyone would agree with me on that, but.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
I think most people. I think most people. I mean,
I agree with that. How about that.

Speaker 5 (01:01:23):
I'm not talking about one argument where you didn't feel
good enough for our situation. I'm talking about you never
felt good enough for this person.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Yeah, well, at least to another Jillian Direki quote that
I like that. I wanted to say, never make your
life harder by trying to convince someone to stay in
your life. If someone believes their happiness is somewhere else.
Don't hold them back from finding it, because if they stay,
you need it to be because they want to. You
deserve and need to be chosen every day.

Speaker 5 (01:01:51):
Yes, one of the most profound lessons I ever learned
about love and relationships is that you cannot convince someone
to love you or to choose you, or just say
that is the law of the land. You just cannot.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
And so a lot of people listening are going, but
what if I.

Speaker 5 (01:02:08):
Yeah, exactly, No, you really can't. There's a difference between
fighting for your relationship and fighting to be enough for someone,
and you need to know the difference, and you just look.
Letting go is messy, it's complicated, it's hard, it's heartbreaking,
but it's better to adopt the mentality that if someone

(01:02:31):
thinks that their happiness is somewhere else other than with you,
don't stand in the way of them finding that happiness.
Because trying to convince them to love you or that
they're going to be happy with you, it is never
going to work. It's going to work against you in
every way, and you lose.

Speaker 1 (01:02:50):
All your power. If you're being somebody else that's not.

Speaker 5 (01:02:53):
You, you lose all your path exactly, and you can't.
You can't make someone love you or choose you. People,
we have free will for a reason, and you only
want to be in a relationship with someone who chooses
to be there. That's the only way. It doesn't have
any it doesn't have a chance to work otherwise.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
I think I'm sure that people listening are like, yeah,
but if I can just convince them by doing it,
by being this or being that.

Speaker 5 (01:03:21):
Question yourself, never change yourself, It's one thing. Look, we
all have certain habits that we need to work on,
you know, if we're in a relationship, we may have
certain habits like hey, you know, that's maybe something that
you need to work on, but you should never change
who you are to you know, you are who you are.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
And I think there's so much stressful trying to be
somebody else, you know, there's so much. There's so much anxiety,
is so much anxiety and playing a character in a relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:03:50):
Yeah, but we come from a world where playing characters
is like, you know, we live in the La la land,
you know what I mean, Like, you know, we're all
we all play a character in order to keep a job,
in order.

Speaker 1 (01:04:03):
To but that's not that's not healthy to be in
a relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
You are.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
You are because I've seen it up close, authentically yourself
with your partner, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:04:13):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:14):
And you have your issues like all human beings have
their issues, but you're not sitting there going I'm being inauthentic.
You are proudly one hundred percent yourself with her, and
she chooses it, and the same thing and vice versa.
And I think what Jillian is saying is like, you
be careful to not try and convince someone or be
something you're not, because how the fuck can you keep

(01:04:36):
that up? That's so stressful to like pretend you're somebody
that that isn't who you truly are. And don't you
want to ideally find someone who's so in love with
who you truly are? I mean, isn't that the ideal?
That is the ideal you have people.

Speaker 5 (01:04:49):
A relationship doesn't work unless people accept one another. And
that's just it's just the bottom line.

Speaker 1 (01:04:55):
Sometimes so hard though, because you're just so in love
and you can love someone so much but also be like, gosh,
I don't know that we're compatible, but there's still so
much love there.

Speaker 5 (01:05:06):
Yeah, it's heartbreaking, it's heartbreaking. And I think that you know,
that's why love is not enough. You have to agree
on being in alignment on what a life well lived is.
You have to have some goals that you share. You
have to want. Oh I hear a little puppy.

Speaker 1 (01:05:26):
That's my little rescue poppy. Yeah, not little my eighty
pounds the rescue. I like that quote love is not enough.
That could be a good title for your second book. Yeah,
because I think a lot of people, including myself, are like,
but I love her. Yeah, and it's like, okay, but
that's not enough. Diesels, is what you want and what
you need? A line?

Speaker 5 (01:05:44):
Yes? And is it love? You know, it's love is
Love is definitely not enough. It's important, It's very important.
But and and that's why people need to clarify what
it is that they really want, what kind of relationship
that they really want. And it's very hard to say

(01:06:07):
goodbye to someone you love because it's just not working.

Speaker 1 (01:06:12):
Yeah, that's fucking really hard.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Can relationship just be Can it still work as just
a friendship though? You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Like after you're in love?

Speaker 5 (01:06:22):
Yeah, you know, some some relationships never die, They just
change form and they transition into friendship. Because their relationship
was already just friendship. You know, they lost all the passion.

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
Very difficult.

Speaker 5 (01:06:38):
You can't have you can't have complicated feelings towards each
other and then be like, Okay, we're going to be friends.
Typically you need some distance.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
And also when they start dating other people, it's like, yeah, it.

Speaker 5 (01:06:49):
Becomes really complicated. It and can become very complicated, like.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
I don't think I'm friends with anybody I dated. And
that's a sad thing to say, but it's also a
realistic thing to say, you know what I mean, And
it's because it's really weird to be in a in
such a forever how long you're into space for, but

(01:07:12):
you're in a trust you're in a trusting space. You're
in a you know what I mean, for a year,
six months, two years, you break up and then all
of a sudden, you never have a conversation with that
person ever again, and if you do, it's it's fucking nuts,
and it's like you don't even recognize them. You might
not even recognize their name if somebody were to say

(01:07:35):
it to you, you know what I mean, Like it's it's.

Speaker 1 (01:07:40):
I want to give you the last We'll let Jillian go,
but I want to give her one last Jillian quote
from your Instagram I really liked was stop romanticizing the
person who broke your heart.

Speaker 5 (01:07:52):
Yes, when we when we break.

Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
Up, Joelle's nodding, Joelle I have said preach.

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
I was like, I recognize the feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Oh gosh, but I think everyone can relate to that,
especially after a little time passes, right and then.

Speaker 5 (01:08:12):
But yeah, we just tend to make out the person
to be much much more special than they actually are.
And that's not to put them down, but we tend
to remember the the highlight reel instead of these are
like the documentary. I remember someone, a therapist by the

(01:08:33):
name of John Kim, saying that, and and then we think, oh,
they're the one, They're perfect, I love them. It's like, really,
or are you just attached and heartbroken? Which is a
completely normal thing for you to experience, But we I mean,
I see it all the time. Someone treats you in

(01:08:56):
such a way that's actually not loving, or you really
didn't get along, or like you really were incompatible, or
this person had real, true, serious character defects. But your heartbroken,
so you tend to romanticize them and think I can't
live without this person. This person is amazing, And it's
all the mind playing a major trick on you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
Yeah, because it felt because you're lonesome and you're you're,
like you said, you're only thinking of the highlight reel.
You're not thinking of all the other shit.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
But your highlight reel is dope. Man, let's keep it
one hundred. Oh yeah, remember fucking family ties? Did it? Bed?
What did you think? How would do you have to?
And he's going through the highlight reel of him and
the girl and all the things they went through, and yeah,
you know what I mean. The highlight reel is fire
right center sucks.

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
Yeah, well, the highlight reel, the highlight reel will really
mess with your head because it's it's not accurate.

Speaker 5 (01:09:53):
It's not accurate.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
It's like a great movie trailer for a shitty movie.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
That's exactly what it is, exactly, exactly exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
And Jillian, that's your third book, that's your third book.

Speaker 5 (01:10:04):
In a world, it's really true. I used to go
to the movies and just like want to watch the trailer.
So there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
Yeah, well everybody please check out. It begins with you.
Jillian Tareki's awesome book, and also make sure to follow
her on Instagram. I just love it. I love all
the things you post. Just like Joelle nodded, I find
myself going when I when I when I read your quotes,
and it's just really helpful. If you're if you're dating,
if you're if you're working on relationship not just romantic relationships,

(01:10:34):
in your in your like like we learned earlier with
your children, with your friends. I just think everything you're
putting out there is really really good for for the world.
So thank you for coming.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
You're very You're very uh uh, what's the word I'm
looking for. You give a lot on your Instagram, the
things that you say, uh, you give a lot actually
to your followers, and I really appreciate that as one
of your followers. Really I appreciate.

Speaker 5 (01:10:59):
Thank you so much that that means a lot to me.
Thank you for that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
Seriously, Well, Donald, I'm going to use some of these
tools for our relationship exactly. I mean, because I've been
hurt by you before and uh, and I haven't communicated well,
and I think it would have I would have benefited
if I had the courage to.

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
I feel like you're so full of ship right now,
my friend. I to keep it one hundred with you.
Out of everybody, I know, the one people, the people
that you're very communicate, communic, communicative communicative with, are your friends.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
There's so many times we've gotten in arguments and I
just go, I just go, fuck it. I'm just not
going to talk to them, and I'll wait till I'm
not pissed off anymore. Where I where we could have.

Speaker 5 (01:11:42):
Benefit, there's some value to that, though, I know, but.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
I could have I could have benefited from cooling off
and then being like, hey, can we have a chat
about something. This pissed me off? And yeah, but I
don't want to let in the spirit of what we're talking
about let too many things go, because then you get resentment.

Speaker 5 (01:11:57):
You know, yeah, absolutely no, no, if you let it go. Oh,
it has to be a genuine letting go.

Speaker 2 (01:12:02):
He'll hit me up like, dude, you don't do nothing
for the podcast. You need to fucking start doing one.
And I'm like, wait a second, I think I do
a lot. He'd be like, no, bro, I need you
to do way more.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
Like that's me being communicative. That's good. Yeah, I love
it as opposed to being resentful, like this motherfucker doesn't
do ship.

Speaker 5 (01:12:26):
That.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
I wanted to tell you, Donald, did Timothy Chalomaye live
in your building?

Speaker 2 (01:12:34):
I don't recall him.

Speaker 1 (01:12:36):
Because I saw him on a talk show just did
you see that?

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Clem Manhattan? Yeah, he grew up in Manhattan Plaza. Are
a bunch of people that lived in Manhattan Plaza after
I left. I left in ninety or.

Speaker 1 (01:12:46):
Or well he's a lot younger than us. But but
but then also the actor what's his name from from
Sing Sing?

Speaker 2 (01:12:52):
Yeah, I don't know. I didn't know him either, lived
there for a little bit. I don't think he lived
there for very.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
They were on that famous English talk show what's his name, Joelle?
I've been on it, I forgot, but they were talking
about Manhattan Plaza and I thought of you because I
knew you grew up there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:11):
Yeah, you know when I was there, Uh, there were
other people that were you know. John Carlo Esposito is
one of my mentors and I you know, we used
to watch him play basketball when I was a little kid.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
A lot of people came Graham Norton, sorry Grammy, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:13:25):
Phillip Seymour Hoffman was a was a was a camp
counselor of mine. Like, the list of people that came
through that building, uh is incredible. And so the fact
that Timothy was there, Timothy, however you stated, however you
say his name?

Speaker 3 (01:13:45):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:13:46):
He Uh. The fact that he was there, you know,
it doesn't surprise me because a lot of creatives have
come out of that building.

Speaker 1 (01:13:54):
Yeah, and your mom still lived there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:56):
She does. My nephew. I asked him, I was like,
did you know this guy? And about Timofay and Timothy?

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
Why do you him?

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
Timothy? Timothy? That's how we'd be saying it in the household.
In our household, Timothy, we love this boy. I'm gonna
keep it one hundred.

Speaker 1 (01:14:13):
You love Timothy.

Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
Oh who doesn't love some Timothy. If you don't love
some Timidate, that's something wrong. That boy is very, very
talented and very charismatic, and very knowledgeable on sports too.
So you know, you know, I'm I'm a huge fan
of his.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
Who's your pick for the Super Bowl? This will be
this will probably be too very old, but when it
comes out, But who's your pick for.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
The Kansas City? When's their third Super Bowl in a row?
I think it's it's coming out of the AFC this.

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
Year, Joelle, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (01:14:44):
I have no thoughts on the Super Bowl except I
can't wait for this halftime show. Let's go Kendrick. We'll
be excited.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
Okay, Well, they're not like us.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
They be hilarious if people would drake out though.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
Well that was great, Commercy Donald. I learned a lot.
I hope you did.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
I did you know? And I think my wife learned
a lot too, which is great. We learned a lot
about each other, which is great. And you know, every
time Jillian's on the show, I feel like we learned
something not only about ourselves, but about uh, you know,
it isn't about who we want to be, it's who

(01:15:23):
we are, you know what I mean? Like you know
that really, you know, you can front and pretend and
try to be something you're not, but you're only going
to fail at the end. It's when you are comfortable
with who you are and have the courage or your
person is comfortable with who they are and you both
can accept that. It just makes for such a better relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
Yeah, and have the courage to be vulnerable and say
what you're feeling without accusing the other person. That's one
of the things I think that's really important.

Speaker 2 (01:15:54):
Absolutely, I believe in love for you, still, bro, it's got.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
To have a dog now, fine, I don't need love all.

Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
I don't get dog flu.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
I got Joel and I are both are but we're
both at single and in love with our pities, so that's.

Speaker 4 (01:16:13):
All we need.

Speaker 2 (01:16:14):
Don't get dog flu.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
All right, On that note, we love you guys. Thanks
for tuning in. Five six stories I'm not Show.

Speaker 4 (01:16:24):
We made about a bunch of talks and nurses and
I said he's the stories net all so YadA round here,
yeada round here, we sho