Gov. Tim Walz, Rep. Nancy Pelosi, Heather Cox Richardson & Harry Litman

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Mollie John Fast, and this is Fast Politics,
where we discussed the top political headlines with some of
today's best minds. And Vice President Kamala Harris has chosen
Minnesota Governor Tim Walls as her next vice president. We
have such a great show for you today. Former Speaker
of the House Nancy Pelosi joins us to talk about

(00:22):
her new book, The Art of Power. Then we'll talk
to historian Heather Cox Richardson about rural voters and the
history there. And as a special Fancy exclusive bonus, we
are re airing my famous interview with Tim Walls where

(00:43):
he and I really became friends. But first we have
the host of Talking Fed's former US attorney Harry Littman.
Welcome to our weird Fast Politics, Talking Feds Mashup. I'm
Mollie John Fest, and here is Talking fed's host Terry Lipman.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Welcome to another what we call at Talking Fed's land
Molly mash up with Molly John Fast, special correspondent for
Vandy Fair, host of the podcast Fast Politics, and man,
what a propitious time to be talking to her. There's
been a thing or two happened since we last convened Molly,
you can give me your little legal questions, but then

(01:26):
I get to throw my politics. But they're gonna be
what's going to tune me out and tune you in?

Speaker 3 (01:33):
And that's just fine.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
What do you got, Well, that's not necessarily true, Okay,
So explain to us what legal jeopardy does Trump face
right now?

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Still a lot depending right now, depending on whether he
wins the election, if he loses the election, kind of
everything that there's been this clock about the clock's gone.
We lost that battle, but other cases still remain, with
the exception of that Fulton County case that I'm not
sure will ever be revived and see the light of day.

(02:05):
But the January sixth case, it's gonna be trimmed down
because of immunity. The mar Lago case it's gonna go,
and maybe probably not without cannon. And just yesterday, Molly,
you had Jenna Ls plead guilty in an Arizona case.
So there are these state elector cases. Trump is in
charge there, but he's co conspirator number one in the indictment.

(02:30):
So that and also the civil case in New York,
those things, for the most part are not going away.
So everything with the exception of the trim down January
sixth and Fulton County's anybody's bet that's again if he loses.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
So why is Fulton County gone?

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Well, it's just such a mess.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
It's not clear that Humpty Dumpty can put the pieces
back together again.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
In theory, there's going to be an appeal.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
This is her off the case, whether.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
To kick her off not just her, but it would
be her whole office. It's this big, sprawling case and
I don't know. People that I talked to in Georgia
tended to use the word moribund. There's no reason you
could try to revive it, but it has this feel
of being pretty mothballed.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
But it could come back.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
In the Arizona case that Jenna Ellis just agreed to
plead very very very bad news for Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani,
Boris Epstein. That's some of the same kind of conduct
and could still ensnare Donald Trump because guys like Meadows
and Julianna, if they're looking to get a good deal

(03:42):
like Jenna Elis just got, they got one person to
give up.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
That would be the former president of the United States.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
My turn, my turn, My turn.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
As we speak, the ticket is set. Tim Wallas's Kama
Harris VP pick. You know you talked on Rick Wilson's
podcast about well, a lot of things about Kamala Like
a lot of people, I haven't really seen Walls, but
you know, until he's he came to the fore calling JB.
Vance and the Republican Party weird, which is a separate

(04:11):
thing to ask you about. But what I've heard is
relative to the other finalists, maybe a little Minnesota bland. Yeah,
so let's hear about Tim Walls.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Okay, So first of all, Tim Walls, the two things
that people have been saying, which neither of which are true.
One is that he's some wild leftist, which he's not,
and two is that he is not interesting. So what
I would say about him is this Tim Walls. Why
he came on my radar was two things. One, he

(04:46):
was the head of the governors the Democratic Governors Association,
which is something that you get when you're popular with
other governors and you're good at raising money, two things
you want in a vice presidential candidate. And if you
look at j Events like popular or Ron DeSantis.

Speaker 3 (05:04):
Like in the first line, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Right, you're already ahead of the game. Then the other
thing about him is that he's famous for being able
to enact really and I don't even want to say
progressive legislation because I think it under sells what it is.
But free breakfasts and lunch is six weeks paid leave,
you know, sickly more. You know, he had a real

(05:28):
relationship with the union.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
Yeah, unions love him.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
And he was a teacher and he was also an
enlisted man, so he wasn't an officer. He was really
in it the way Reuben Diego was. And I think
that if you look at him, he's a very kind
of Midwestern guy. Right. He was born in Kansas, he
grew up there. He had a father who had misfortune.
He enlisted to save his family and make money, so

(05:53):
it's a really relatable story. I also just find him
to be a pretty charismatic guy.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
You do, Okay, we'll be learning that too.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, he's very Midwestern and his affect is full Midwest.
But you know, he hunts, he fishes, he has guns.
He's all about gun safety. But he doesn't take money
from the NRA like he's a really I think he's
a really impressive guy.

Speaker 3 (06:17):
Okay, cool.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
I got much more on him, but you go next,
and now I'll come back on the walls too, question.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Jenna Alice tell us everything on Jen Alice.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Her qualifications for getting where she got, and it was
pretty high up and pretty visible, were only that she
would say whatever crap Trump wanted her to say.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
She puffed about her resume.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
She never had really any credentials, but at that time
in the Trump land, that got you in the room
your ticket, I want debated her on Fox and she
they gave her the last word and she just like
lied flagrantly, you know. So she would say, now she got,
you know, works her way there, and she's one of
the team with especially Rudy, who she's really close to,

(07:00):
you know, and it totally thick the whole especially false
Elector's part of the scheme.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
So she goes. So now Arizona.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
And I mentioned this only in passing Molly, that's a
part of the overall liability picture for Trump and team Trump,
all the President's men. Trump, they go to Arizona. They
do the whole three way deal. First, they try to
badger the legislature into saying the you know, withdrawing certification

(07:29):
because falsely they make up all these lives about why
it's not accurate. Legislature says goodbye anyway. Second, they go
on the phony elector plan and they literally have the
co defendants in that case. You know, I am the
actual elector for Donald Trump. Just a flagrant lie. And
then third they on January sixth try to pressure Mike

(07:53):
Pence into breaking the law. So you got the classic
full case in Arizona. It was brought only recently, but
it's now one of four or five state cases. And
Jenna Ellis was subject to nine charges like all the
rest of the gang here, Boris Epstein, mark Man Is,
Rudy Giuliani. They're giving her a full walk, no charges

(08:15):
at all, if but only if she testifies truthfully in
yanked at any time. And she It really is interesting
because they have put her out in the cold, did
Team Trump? They didn't pay her legal fees. She tried
to do a gofund me and kind of got nowhere.
And she's just a kid without any you know, she
was in the cold. So she's always I had pointed

(08:37):
to her repeatedly she was just a dangerous figure. She
is right now state witness number one and she is
absolutely in the middle of it all. She could kill
Juliani in particular, but also Epstein, maybe Meadows, And of
course there is co conspirator number one in that indictment,
being Trump and those guys that could put pressure on them.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
One last thing.

Speaker 2 (09:03):
I assume if Trump becomes president, he can make enough
mischief that even the state law cases go away or
get put on hold. But Mark Meadows can't, Boris Epstein
can't rudy Giuliani Camp. This is now set, this case
will happen. She'll go forward as the star witness, and
you know Meadows in particular, who's kind of known the

(09:25):
most but has kept out in trouble with very good lawyering.
He really is looking at serious time in state prison
in Arizona. This is a real deal, and it dovetails
precisely with Trump saying, you know, I'm not going to
pay your bills.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
I'm not.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
So she was this loaded weapon and Arizona prosecutors picked
her up.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
It's a real thing.

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Wow, that is wild stuff. Yeah, it's wild stuff. All right.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
Back to Tim, so you mentioned, I do think that
the contrasts with juven not very funny and totally stupid,
snarky JD. Vans will be distinct, but you know they'll
have one debate, so they're looking in general. They talked
about could Shapiro give them Pennsylvania? Could Kelly give him Arizona.

(10:14):
The hope here, supposedly is he's such a solid Midwesterner
that he actually helps with Michigan. Other than what you've said,
what does he sort of do for them? Do they
hope in this razor sharp election?

Speaker 1 (10:27):
Historically vice presidents have not delivered their states. And if
you look at like John Edwards in North Carolina, and
really the last vice president to deliver a state was LBJ.
So it's sort of not how it moves. I would say,
if you're just looking at him superficially, he reads like
a Midwestern guy. He didn't go to an Ivy League college.

(10:49):
He went to school on the gi Bell. He is
a Midwestern guy, whereas Trump's vice president went to very
fancy schools, worked in Valley. It's just a different look.
A lot of people wanted Shapiro to be picked. I
think that Shapiro is a very good governor. But people
got very involved in the Shapiro Walls matchup.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
Including shooting him down. Shapiro drew a lot of flat right.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
Right, and I'm not convinced they are so different. I mean,
Shapiro was an attorneys general, more like Kamala Harris's record,
whereas Walls was a member of Congress and then a governor.
I mean, the reason why I thought Walls was a
better pick was just because he had military experience, which
again he's the highest ranking governor who was an enlisted man,

(11:39):
so that is like, you know, he really was. He
was in the National Guard for twenty years, so he
knows the Guard. And then I would say also, I
think he worked well with the legislature that was very
split to get a lot of things past. Now the
same has really been true for Shapiro. But I mean
I think that that was ultimately what it was. I

(12:00):
don't think, I mean, people on the right are going
to say it was because Shapiro is Jewish. I don't
think that's true as a Jew myself, but I do
think Shapiro looks more like someone who would come from
an urban area, and Walls, you know, with the ice
fishing and the hunting and the guys, looks like someone
who would come from a rural area.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Looking more generally Shapiro Planet place Ferns up a little
to the right, especially on Israel, and Walls a little
to the left. So it does suggest she was worried
about her left wing.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Now, yeah, not really. There's almost no daylight between Walls
and Shapiro and Israel, except that Shapiro is Jewish. You know,
they're almost the same. And in fact, the thing is
this idea that one is more right than the other.
I mean, they're really so close the free breakfast, They're
doing so many of the same things legislatively. It's really
like a style question.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
I think bipartisan too.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I mean it's put down in the middle of Minnesota,
kind of leaning red, and they've gotten to life.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
Okay, your turn, So just explain to me what the
document's case. What happens now with the documents case. You
had this Aileen kNN and the trumpy judge, and she
basically kicked it out right.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
She not only kicked it out she like there's just
no way around it. She was in the tank for Trump.
You know, you had Merrick Garland. The DJ is not
in the business normally of personally insulting judges, and if
they were. Merrick Garland, would it be but you know
the case, what I the way I wrote about him always,
it doesn't even make sense to analyze, oh the weakness

(13:30):
of this argument, or that it's just a total favor
to throw Trump. But it's her last favor, I think,
and it's a big one because it means he's got
the talking point now until the election of that's been
thrown out.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
But it's going to be reversed.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
I think they're going to probably move to bounce her,
I think, and that would that would get her done.
Here's the interesting point about it. You know, she said
there's no constitutional legal authority to use the Special Council,
and the next day, if they were really worried about time,
the DOJ could have filed it again with a regular

(14:08):
US attorney. Everyone recognized that a lot of people were
urging it. But this is a really punctilious DOJ under
Merrick Garland. They liked the Special Council rag and they
want to be able if they prosecute a Donald Trump,
for the public to have confidence. So they don't want
to do it with the US attorney. They want to

(14:28):
vindicate their right to bring it with a special Council,
which you know, if you're actually prosecuting the former president
deputative opponent, then your boss, the president.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
That's when you need it for.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
So they could have just at five screw you and
refiled it but not not challenged her legal ruling. It
would have hung out there, but you know it wouldn't
have gone anywhere. But instead doj acting in its institutional
interests and taking time. Now it's going to go to
eleven Circuit has set a schedule. It's going to be

(15:03):
the normal plotting schedule. But I'd say around February March,
her ruling's been reversed fifty to fifty or better. She's
off the case, and now she's done all the damage
for Trump she can do in that case, which by
the way, is the strongest and the most cut and
dried where they really have him dead to write will rezoom.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
And it will go to a new judge.

Speaker 2 (15:24):
Probably it'll stay in that district, and there'll be a
strategic call of trying whether to bounce Cannon. But I
think everybody, even the judges, wants to and this is
it's a good opportunity. It's a hard thing to do
in the eleventh Circuit, but I think it'll happen. So
that's what we'll see.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
If Trump loses, Trump goes in jail.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
You know, I think I've said this, I said, appreciable
chance he spends for the rest of his life.

Speaker 3 (15:47):
In jail, and people are, oh, it's just the.

Speaker 1 (15:49):
Math, right, isn't that a federal world?

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, but the penalties are severe, not to mention all
the other cases, not to mention January sixth. You know,
we could have had a whole different history here where
years ago we cut some big deal with Philosopher Kings
of like, all right, you don't have to go to jail,
but get out of here and don't come back. But
we've been so determined to treat him like others that

(16:13):
that's what it means if he doesn't win. Yeah, I think, Mollie,
I think he's going to jail and maybe dying in jail.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Because those federal charges, they have a sentencing structure that
is very punitive.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Right, depends what you say. It's a serious fucking crime.
He took national see wait, yeah there. I mean, he's
looking at big at real time, and he's pretty old.
And again, if he loses, but we've been thinking by November.
By November, but that's beyond now, but we're back to
a serious as a heart attack series of charges against him.

Speaker 1 (16:48):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (16:49):
All right, I want to fold walls into this, but
I just want to talk about Harris. When we could
see the writing on the wall, it just seemed like, well,
Biden's got to go.

Speaker 3 (16:59):
But it can't be Harris. It has to be Harris.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
But it can't be Harris because of her lackluster campaign
in twenty twenty and her not being very focused and
like the woman's she hasn't made a false move yet.
She's like like like made a deal with the devils.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
She's the kid.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
She's energized, everybody electrified. She's got joy and vigor and
makes Trump look old and grumpy.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
What happened? And what is she doing so right? And
how long can it last?

Speaker 1 (17:33):
So I would say a few things. One is the
conventional wisdom that told us Harris shouldn't be the candidate.
It's the same conventional wisdom that's telling us that Shapiro
must be the vice president, right, which is that this
is the election where nobody knows anything, just nobody knows, right.
There were some anxiety about Harris. She came out of

(17:55):
the gate incredible she. I mean, I would say a
few things I think helped her. I had written about
her a ton and interviewed her, and I had always
thought that two years into the Biden president presidency she
became a much better orator, like a real Obama lever speaker.
Now that said, she had spoke very very well when

(18:18):
she announced her candidacy. You'll remember in California she actually
gave an incredible speech and she had it in her
but she didn't start like hitting. She didn't start hitting
home runs every time she got at bat until she
was about two years into it. She also got a
new chief of staff around then who is very very good,

(18:41):
and there were.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
Raps on the old one that it was just chaotic
and not happy place yet.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
Right, and then in the last two years you've seen
much less turnover and much less you know, and the
office is like a machine in that way. So that
was one thing. I think the three weeks that took
Biden to come to that decision were huge help to
her because it didn't feel like she was taking him out.
Her office also was super careful never to make it

(19:06):
sound like she you know, So that was another thing.
And in fact, someone an insider told me that she
believed he should stay in, So the way it came
out was just exactly right. And then the third thing
was that he had to see he was losing in
the polls, which he started to see, and the base
needed to see he was losing in the polls, because

(19:27):
until the base saw it, you know, people would come
over to me and they'd say, are they going to
take away my candidate? Like, until they could see it,
it was you couldn't explain to people. And the truth
was none of us knew, I mean, back to this hole.
Nobody knows what's going to happen election. And then the
other thing was that he really couldn't do the campaign schedule.
That said, since he's dropped out, I mean, he's done

(19:51):
incredible stuff. For example, the day he dropped out was
the day he secured this enormous, very complicated, multi country
a prisoner release package that was incredible, the kind of
thing that would make a presidency for anyone else. And also,
I would like to add real proof that he's not
Jimmy Carter, because you'll remember that Donald Trump had said

(20:14):
that Putin was going to hold Evan Gershkowitz until he
became president and then release him then just like Reagan,
you know, maybe got those kidnap victims released when he
So I did think that it was you know, Biden
is really a good president. I mean, he's an old guy,
and he can't crisscross the country and he has some

(20:36):
speech issues, but he's done really well and so I
think that really helped her too. But she's really become
a next level order. And then the one other thing
that I think is really important in this story is
that he the message from his campaign and the message
from people in his campaign, and the message from him
and his people was if you want to honor me,

(20:57):
you will help her. And that is such a staunch
contrast too. You'll remember the other time a president stepped
down to elevate his VP, he was much more on
the fence about the whole thing. So I do think
that was very helpful too.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
So Thursday night he now gets to play a great
role because he doesn't have to bring you know, when
it comes through Thursday night, the rafters a rock in Chicago,
I think we'll both be there. I'll hope to see you.
But man, if as much happens between this month and
next month, We're gonna have a lot of match and
to do always a pleasure. Molly, thanks so much for
being here.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Thanks for having.

Speaker 4 (21:35):
Did you know Molly, John Fast and Rick Wilson are
heading out on tour together to bring you a Knight
of Last, to bring some lightness to our dark political landscape.
Join us on August twenty sixth in San Francisco at
the Swedish American Hall. We're in la on August twenty
seventh at the Region Theater. Then we'll hit the Midwest
at the Bavariam in Milwaukee on the twenty first of September,
and the twenty second will be in Chicago at City Winery.

(21:57):
That will be on the East Coast September thirtieth and
at the Armory the first of October, and Philly at
City Winery, and then DC on the second at the
Miracle Theater, with a few more dates to come. If
you need to laugh as we get through this selection
and hopefully never hear from this guy who lives in
a golf club again, we got you covered. Join us
along with some surprise guests to help you laugh instead

(22:18):
of cry your way through this selection season and get
the inside analysis of what's.

Speaker 5 (22:22):
Really going on right now.

Speaker 4 (22:23):
Buy your tickets now by heading to Politics as Unusual
dot bio. That's Politics as Unusual dot bio.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Nancy Pelosi is the former Speaker of the House and
represents California's eleventh district. Welcome Speaker Pelosi.

Speaker 6 (22:41):
Thank you, Mollie.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Nice to be with you, Nice to have you. So
let's talk about this book. I want you to sort
of explain to us because this book is not a memoir,
So explain to us what it is.

Speaker 6 (22:53):
This is a book about decisions, decisions relating to China,
what happened in the in the room where it happened
on the economic downturn in two thousand and eight. It's
about important decisions where I was present to tell them
what we saw at the time. I could have written
this book any number of times that didn't really have

(23:15):
time with the book. Now when I was no longer
leader or Speaker and had the time to write it.
It's coming out now and we're in an election, but
that's when the book was ready, and that's the timetable
of it. But it's about several decisions, whether it was
the Tarba Act in terms of saving our country from

(23:37):
the Wall Street meltdown that happened there, about the decision
to go Intoto, the Iraq War, which I completely opposed
and thought was wrong for our country, our attitude towards
China in terms of security, trade, and human rights. It's
about what happened on January sixth, It's about what happened

(23:59):
in my home to my husband, to go into that
a little bit about that, And it's about the leadership.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
You know, it's about.

Speaker 5 (24:05):
Power, and that's what it's called the art of power.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
So we had all of that.

Speaker 6 (24:10):
And again my China is from Taiwan, from tay Channaman
to Taiwan, and I have different phrases. For example, when
we talk about the Iraq War, my statement at the
time was the intelligence does not support the threat. About
what happened to the economy in September two thousand and eight,

(24:31):
the statement from the Chairman of the Fed, we won't
have an economy by Monday. The pat of the healthcare bill,
which is so transformative for our country but took so
much courage on the part of our members, that healthcare
is a right, not a privilege. And again about patriotism
for our country as it relates to January sixth, and

(24:51):
then just some thoughts about why I love the house.
People always ask me why, and you run for something
else when you're appointed to something.

Speaker 5 (24:58):
I know I love the house.

Speaker 6 (25:00):
So it's about my service and leadership there, demonstrated by
a few specific events and major pieces of legislation that
I was a part of.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Can we talk for a minute about the horrible attack
on your husband, Paul Pelosi, who was at home. Now,
you know, no offense, but he's not a young guy,
and a physical attack is much worse on someone who's older.
Will you talk about that? And also your decision to
write about it.

Speaker 6 (25:31):
But I thought it was very important to write about
it because people asked about it. So I want the
horror of it all to be clear for the purpose
of trying to eliminate that kind of action, political violence
from our society. Here it was in our very own home,
an assault on our home, making our home a crime scene,

(25:52):
an attack on my husband, who is not even that political.
Actually the guilt I have for his paying the price
for my activism, and again what it has come to,
what it meant to my children and meant to my grandchildren.
With something I thought it was important to write something,
and I didn't write everything about it because frankly, Molly

(26:14):
Paul and I have never discussed it. The doctors tell
him to revisit it, and he doesn't want me to
suffer it undergo it. So what I had written about
is somewhat of what is in the public domain and
our individual experiences, but not his because now what I
know about it from him is what he testified in court.

(26:34):
But we've never had that discussion. So it's that still
traumatic for us, and the trauma will live on. He's
getting better, but he's not there yet.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, And I mean that when you have an older
person have an injury like that, it's a completely different
kind of thing. Can you explain to us about the
horrible way that the right treated him? You know?

Speaker 6 (26:59):
It's so interesting thing is what's next. When this happened,
it was really painful for my children, my grandchildren, to
see former President of the United States, his family, sitting
governors make fun of what happened, to laugh at it,
to make it a joke. That was so painful. It
was so painful that someone was done civilized we would

(27:21):
never do that to somebody else, of course, but that
is nature of what provoked it in the first place,
in terms of their rhetoric, their political nasty rhetoric, and
how they reacted to it. Can you imagine making jokes
about somebody getting over that hit over the head with
the hammer three times a centimeter from death? Elder abuse
as you described that. We think of him as vigorous

(27:43):
in all the rest, But of course a lot of
his physical well being was affected by what happened that day.
But you know what, let me compare it to something else.
On January sixth, when these people made an assault on
the Capitol, on our constitution and on our democracy, and
it was all over, and they saw the danger and
the threat and all the rest. Overwhelmingly the Republicans voted

(28:07):
against accepting the electoral College vote peaceful transfer of power.
So I was like, what you're voting against this? In
large numbers, all of your leadership, we have an assault
which they see the danger of that they were all in,
mostly all of them were in. Not the leadership because
they had security, but that their stats were in that

(28:30):
the maintenance people in the capital and the custodians that
keep the capital beautiful had to clean up the poo
poo of these people actual theiration, but also their foul
language criticizing these people and derogatory and discriminatory terms. So
there's a sort of a lack of respect that you

(28:50):
see in both cases.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's right, But I also
think you have experiences, both in your work and in
your home the sort of real cruelty of the right.
And I think like the McCarthy slash Johnson's speakerships have
shown us very clearly how talented a vote whipper you

(29:16):
are were. I mean, I feel like people respected you,
but because you made it look so easy, a lot
of people just assumed it was easy. And then those
two knuckleheads they lose rules votes. They're not able to
vote whip the way you are. Do you get a
quiet satisfaction out of this.

Speaker 6 (29:35):
No, I don't think so. I mean, I would rather
see the Congress function in a way that is respectful
and try to bring people together. But I take great
pride in my legislative skills and my leadership, so I
don't I won't diminish that. And it all springs from
the courage of the members. Right to be respectful of
the members because it's their vote, their job, title, and

(29:58):
their jump description are one in the same representative. So
we had beautiful diversity, regional, generational, gender, gender id ethnically,
we have beautiful diversity and our caucus and so they
have different points of view, and I always say, our
diversity is our strength, our unity is our power. One point,
we were two votes. We were only two votes because

(30:20):
a couple of people ran for all left to one
run for governor, to join a community action group and
you know different things. We lost three and so we
had five, were down to two. But we still had
our shared values. We listened to each other and saw
where we could find our common ground and if we couldn't,

(30:41):
sometimes we had some Republican votes to take us over
the top. I was just determined that we would get
it done. And that determination their courage, our values and
again respect, respect, respect for everybody in the Congress, but
also knowing what our members were willing to take a

(31:02):
risk on.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
It's respect, but it's also an ability to get people
to do things. And as someone who was quite good
at getting people to do things, I have a lot
of respect for you. I have to tell you, because
when you see how hard it is to get people
to vote for things, even it's not you know, some
of this stuff. It's just a question of being able
to get people to say they're going to do something

(31:23):
and do it. I mean, it's actually a really hard job.

Speaker 6 (31:27):
Well, I'd say this one of the hardest things I
had to do, and I say this in the book,
the hardest thing I had to do.

Speaker 1 (31:33):
When we had a.

Speaker 6 (31:34):
Democratic president, Barack Obama, and we were doing the Affordable
Care Act. It was hard because the other side was
putting out negative false information. They were there for the
insurance industry, they were there for the pharmaceutical industry, they
were there for the anti governance croud and the rest
of that.

Speaker 1 (31:53):
But we knew that what we believed in.

Speaker 6 (31:55):
We worked together to craft our priorities and we prevailed.
But when we lost the House, and people said it
was because of the Affordable Character, I don't even think that.
I think we lost it because of what happened on
Wall Street and the Republicans renaveed on their promise of
votes and we had to bail it out. And that
was attributed to us, even though it wasn't about Wall Street,

(32:18):
it was about our economy.

Speaker 5 (32:20):
Anyway.

Speaker 6 (32:21):
A lot of things came to bear in that election,
including the fact that because of the Supreme Court deciding
for Citizen Ju nine, it so called Citizen ju nine.
It The amount of money that was spent in two
thousand and nine was that's a non election year, but
one million dollars of dark this dark money and twenty

(32:45):
ten over one hundred million dollars.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
At least we were going to win.

Speaker 6 (32:49):
We had the candidates, we had the resources, we had
the ideas, all of it. And then in June boom
they just put in tons of money. And again unemployment
was high, like nine percent. You know, there are other
factors about it, but nonetheless, nonetheless, when we lost and
they came in, there were Republicans would put up these
things that sound like motherhood in apple Pie when motherhood

(33:12):
and pie used to be popular, right. They put up
these propositions about the Affordable Care Act, And so my
members would say, well, that sounds good. They're advertising that
in my district. I can vote for that, And I
said they can't. Now this is when I say to
you the hardest part, Molly, Now you can't because it
undermines the Affordable Care Act. And they would say, well,

(33:32):
I know my district better than you do. I said, well,
I certainly so, but I know the Affordable Care back
better than you do ye and not vote for. So
I'm having to say to these lovely members of Congress Democrats,
some of them weren't even there when we did the
Affordable Care acts.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
You know. They came later, you know, in the.

Speaker 6 (33:51):
Next election, and I said, you just have to vote
with the president. But they didn't want to, and I
had to have shull. We say the friendship in my
voice a little less friendly.

Speaker 1 (34:01):
Did helping a million kids prepare you for this job?

Speaker 5 (34:06):
Not quite a million, but some days it might have
felt like that I did.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
But I have a lot of kids. I mean I
only have three of you have five. I feel like
there are certain skills you've got as a mother, of
just like of dealing with people and helping people deal
with each other that are actually weirdly relevant to dealing
with members of Congress.

Speaker 6 (34:27):
Now let us praise mothers. Others are what are domestic engineers.
There are coachspers, they're diplomats. They have to resolve differences
of opinion, all the rest that say, chauffeur you, religious advisors,
all the rests. Mothers are everything I have to say

(34:48):
that when I talk to women, and I said, well,
I'm just a housewive.

Speaker 5 (34:51):
How can I run?

Speaker 6 (34:52):
I said, don't ever say to me, you're just a housewif,
being a mom, being a housewif. Put that in the
plus column. Give yourself a gold star for that. So, yeah,
just in terms of respecting different views, and there are
different views and families, you know, that's for sure. It
probably was helpful. But what was helpful too, is I
never even washed my face someday. I mean, you don't

(35:13):
have any time for anything. You know, time is the
most valuable commodity and it is finite. And so how
you manage your time, how you multitask, how you respect
different views and try to resolve differences among the children
and that. But the most important thing about it for
me was that having the five children just drove home

(35:37):
the message to me that one in five children in
America lives in poverty. And anything motivated me to go
from housewife to house speaker. It was the one in
five children that in America lives in poverty. That was
my why. That's why I left home. I had no
interest in running for congress. Shy and bashful as I was,
I loved being the chair of the California Democratic Party

(35:57):
because I was a volunteer and I could work behind
the scenes to promote other candidates and our position, our candidates,
our agenda and the rest.

Speaker 7 (36:07):
And that was great.

Speaker 6 (36:08):
Then when people came and said you should be running
for Congress, I thought, why me. I've never even wanted
to thought about or anything, And then I did. And
then again, being a mom being bringing family together, that
can be a very challenging task. That's anybody who's had
Thanksgiving dinner.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
Yeah. Do you think Democrats can win the House this cycle? Definitely.

Speaker 6 (36:31):
I thought we were going to hold it last time, Mollie.
Everybody was sitting in thirty forty seats, and I said,
we're not. I don't know why these pundits are saying this.
They don't talk about because we had great candidates. They
had a very good contrast in terms of their position
versus the Republicans in terms of women. Was ready to
choose climate, gun violence protection, fairness in our economy, and

(36:54):
what worked in their district. And I thought we were
going to I thought we could hold it. While they
were saying we're losing thirty we can all but in
losing five seats in New York, which was stunning, but
we'll win those back in haw Keen will be speaker,
so we will win. I'm no doubt we will win
the House of Representatives and hopefully hold or grow in

(37:15):
the Senate. But I don't I don't know the number.
I'm not I'm data district or district on the ground
in terms of the House, so I can speak with
some authority there.

Speaker 5 (37:25):
And of course the.

Speaker 6 (37:26):
Most important thing we have to do is to make
sure that, under no circumstance whatsoever, that Donald Trump comes
within a mile of the White House.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
Yeah, that's certainly true. Are there any congressional seats that
you're thinking about that you're sort of watching to flip
that you are excited about.

Speaker 6 (37:44):
Well, we have a couple in California that we think
that we should be able to get. I mean, we
have a big majority in California. They're fifty two members.
We have forty. They have twelve. I like to jump
down to single digits now that's there. And in New York,
for example, we can I think get the five bat
we already have one back in terms of Swazi or

(38:05):
and we can get a chunk of those, But in
between the coast, there are so many great candidates who
are courageous enough to put their name forth, knowledgeable enough
to speak to their vision and their values and their priorities,
and clever enough to be strategic in how to present
it and get the job done, and compassionate enough to

(38:28):
show people what is in their hearts. So we have
a great not only My goal is not to just win,
it's to win with more. You know, they win the five. Yeah,
we're can win the four, but I want more than that.
And Susan Delbeny our chier. She's fabulous. He's just fabulous.
And I just take my leads from her and from

(38:49):
Hakim and our leadership. And Hakeem will be the Speaker
of the House. When I stepped aside, I was hoping
that it would be that he would be the speaker
at that time.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
He's really really talented. You picked her. It's great, you
did a great job, and I continue to believe that
you have real incredible powers of persuasion and picking and
et cetera that almost no one else in the world has.
So thank you, Nancy Pelosi.

Speaker 6 (39:16):
I get better to our caucus that he's their choice
and I take my lead from him, and his strength
springs from the respect he commands in the caucus. Katherine
Clark and Pete Apolar sed Lou, I mean, we're in
really good shape with our leadership. And Susan Bella, she's wonderful.
I used to say of her. The one place I

(39:36):
love to go in the campaign is to Washington State
because I don't have to do anything. Sometimes I think
I have to do the floors and windows and cook
the food and set table and raise the money. With her,
you just walk in the door because she commands so
much respect and people love her, and you know it's
going to be worth your time to go.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five and how
awful Trump's second term could be, Well, so are we,
which is why we teamed with iHeart to make a
limited series with the experts on what a disaster Project
twenty twenty five would be for America's future right now.
The first four episodes, with the final episode coming next week,

(40:21):
are available by looking up Molly john Fast Project twenty
twenty five on YouTube. If you are thinking you are
more of a podcast person and not a YouTuber, you
can hit play when you get to the video, put
the phone on lockscreen and it will play back. New

(40:41):
episodes are dropping in the next week as well. We
need to educate America on what Trump's second term would
do to this country. Please watch and help us spread
the word. Heather Cox Richardson is a historian and author
of probably the most popular substack in the entire world.

(41:02):
Welcome back, Heather. First things first, I think is, you know,
Democrats do have a rural voter. I don't even want
to say it's a problem, because it's always not been
the Democratic sweet spot. But you know, a couple months ago,
I was at a dinner talking to the sort of
most the member of Congress, a guy called Jared He's

(41:25):
probably not far from you, Jared Golden. He's actually upstate. Yeah, yeah,
he's a main he's a rural main congressman. And he
was talking about how hard it is to speak to
rural voters as a Democrat you live in a rural area.
Tim Walls is in some ways a rural pick because

(41:46):
he can speak to a lot of rural American activities.
So talk to me about what this divided country looks like,
not even you know, divided on many levels, right.

Speaker 7 (41:58):
Well, right, I will say that coming from an area
that is rural, you know, we always laugh a little
bit at the idea that we're some kind of zoo animal,
that you know, what's wrong with rural America, because in fact,
you know, we're just people here and in many ways,
you know, we always joke that it's people in the
big cities who are more provincial than us because they
think they can have everything right where they are, whereas

(42:20):
we recognize that we need to have ideas from outside
and people from outside. So that is a start for
looking at the rural urban divide. There's also the issue
of the fact that quite deliberately, during the Nixon administration,
his advisor at the time, Pat Buchanan, made it a
real point to try and divide the country along that

(42:40):
fissure by saying that the you know, the elites don't
like people like us.

Speaker 5 (42:45):
Right.

Speaker 7 (42:46):
That was this very deliberate straw man. And the other
thing that I would say about this moment is that
as I look around me, the difference between people who
are died in the Wolmagga Republicans in rural my part
of rural America and the ones who are not is
really the people who consume right wing media. And that's
a place I think that Democrats really did fall but

(43:06):
fall behind is on not combating the rise of the
Fox News Channel in the nineteen nineties and talk radio
as well. So I'm not entirely sure that there's a
huge difference between people who live in small towns versus
people who live in cities so much as those particular lines.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
You know, one of the things that Jared said, I said,
you know, my question to everybody always is how to
hear people get their news? And he said radio. And
I think a lot about right after radio host shock
jock Rush Limbad died, he had been the greatest get
out the vote turnout machine for Republicans ever, And I

(43:46):
just wonder if you could talk a little more about
Democrats seating the airways on radio.

Speaker 5 (43:51):
Well.

Speaker 7 (43:51):
So it's very interesting what has happened since Limbad died
in twenty twenty one, and that is not only was
he a person who got at the vote, he was
also the person who established what the talking points of
the Republicans were going to be. So with his laws,
you'll you see the Republican Party really splintering, especially as
people are trying to get airtime by going on farther

(44:12):
and farther right wing podcasts and splitting the vote up
that way between you know, people taking their their own
little issue to some right wing person and people who
are more established in the party and who are trying
to attract more moderate voters sort of saying no, I
don't want any part of that, and yet being harnessed
to it. So Limbaugh's loss was a big one for

(44:33):
the Republicans. So I think was the settlement, the seven
hundred and eighty seven million dollars settlement that the Fox
News Channel had to pay for pushing the big lie
that Trumpet won in twenty twenty because they too backed
off on the idea of there being this one line
that the Republicans were all going to adhere to in
the face of you know, reality, in the face of opposition,

(44:55):
in the face of anything. And since then, I think,
since twenty twenty one, you've really seen the Republican Party
absolutely fall apart. And that's something that we have not
really seen reflected in the coverage of the party. So
much is that splintering now The Democrats, in contrast, as
I say, I don't think they were as quick as
they should have been off the mark in terms of

(45:15):
making sure that they countered the Fox new Channel. Though
remember the Fox News Channel never paid for itself. It
was where it was because of the cable fees. And
what I think you have seen really since the rise
of the Internet, and since the rise of zoom during
the pandemic, and since the rise of things like newsletters
is the ability of people with a much more progressive

(45:38):
position to get their message out into more rural communities.
And you know, I think of somebody like Jess Piper
and Missouri, who you know, has been really out there
in front on issues that rural people really care about,
like public education. This whole idea of the vouchers that
concentrate public tax money in private schools might work for

(45:58):
you know, right wing voters in urban areas, but you're
if you're in a small community, you're going to lose
your public school. And she's been out there in front,
through social media, through a newsletter, and in so many
different ways, reaching the people who previously might not have
been able to voice their content of believing in progressive
causes in rural communities.

Speaker 1 (46:19):
Yeah, And I think that's a really good point and
public schools are such an important element of rural community,
but so are hospitals. And as we both know right now,
states are getting money from Medicare expansion, Medicare Medicaid expansion,
and that money can save rural hospitals. And some of

(46:40):
these red staate governors are rejecting this money.

Speaker 7 (46:43):
Yes, and the terror of having a desperately ill child
at two or three o'clock in the morning and not
being able to get medical care. You know, that's something
that has nothing to do with your political position. It
has to do with sort of our fundamental beliefs as
human beings that we should sup each other in a community.
And those, by the way, are not values that I

(47:04):
think rural America ever walked away from. It's just that
it has been hard to find people to articulate those
in the past forty years for various reasons, both in
terms of the degree to which Republicans have flooded the airwaves,
but also in the degrees to which Democrats always seem
to be on the back foot. And one of the
things that's so interesting about the now vice presidential Democratic

(47:26):
nominee Tim Waltz is that he's been out in front saying, yeah,
you know, call me a monster. I'm making sure kids
get fed and get medical care and get educations. You know,
do you really want to say that this is partisan
because it's not. These are community values in the United
States of America.

Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, they really are. And I think you know, with
this framing that somehow Walls is this very lefty guy,
when in fact much of the policy is actually just popular,
is kind of nutty. I'm wondering if you could talk
to us just a little bit about the sort of
this is a moment that's very without historical president, but

(48:04):
I'm wondering if you were to figure out a president
what it might be.

Speaker 7 (48:08):
Well, you know, one of the things that I'd like
to say to people is, although we focus on the
Donald Trump moment and what that has meant, both in
terms of its continuity from the Republican Party and of
its new authoritarianism, that's a crisis. But at the same
time we I think we are also looking at I'm sorry,
I'm going to go all country on you here a
title change. That is, for forty years, we have operated

(48:32):
largely under the idea of neoliberalism, the idea of letting
markets determine the way societies work, and you know all
the things that that that came with that, and we
could break that down by party and by who was
involved in all and all the different aspects of it,
but that clearly has failed. And what the Biden Harris
administration did is it reminded us that in fact, the

(48:53):
previous system, the one we had between nineteen thirty three
and nineteen eighty one, actually worked. That if you invested
in ordinary Americans, the economy group people did better, The
radicalism declined, all the things that people had said in
those years from thirty three to eighty one, and of
course they tried to expand it so that they weren't
centering basically white nuclear families. They tried to expand their

(49:17):
idea of protecting ordinary Americans to center around children and
their caregivers. But what we're seeing, I think, is this
moment in which we are leaving the past behind and
creating something new. And what that new looks like is
not yet articulated. And it's one of the reasons I
find this moment so exciting is that there are new voices,

(49:38):
and there's new ways of looking at things, and there's
new ideas, and there's new literature, and there's new art,
and there's new music, and that excitement is of course
terrifying for people who just want to cling to the old.
But it's also a moment in which we don't really
know what the future is going to look like. So
one of the things that I'm watching is this is
precedented in the sense that this this is very much

(50:00):
like the eighteen fifties and eighteen sixties looked like. It's
very much what the eighteen nineties and nineteen oughts looked like.
What I'm interested in is the breakdown of the old
lines of partisan politics into this very simple dichotomy of
are you in favor of democracy or a dictatorship? And
then on the other side of that, you know, I'm

(50:21):
watching especially Republicans for Harris, and I think there's a
great deal of discomfort there as you know, well, I'm
not a Democrat, and the answer to that is no,
you're not. But in ten years, I don't think we
know what either either party's going to look like or
who's going to be on which side of which divides,
so that in the eighteen sixties, for example, there are
people who went into the Lincoln administration who were fervent

(50:43):
pro slavery Democrats who simply believed in defending the Union.
And you know, five or six years later, they tended
to be the you know, the more radical people, and
you know, you just didn't know which way people were
going to jump. And I think we're looking at something
very similar now. I actually find it really exciting.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
Yeah, I mean I find it terrifying. But maybe that's
our difference in worldviews. I'm trying not to go too
dark because anytime I run into someone who listens to
the podcast, they're like, you're very dark. But when we
talk about this kind of problem in the Republican party, right,
we have this Republican party that no longer believes really
in our system of democracy. And I actually think what

(51:24):
we were talking was a little bit you know, with Nixon,
this was a slow progression, right, anti democracy make it
harder to vote. I mean, there certainly it harkens back
to Jim Crow, but the Republicans sort of got on board,
and then Trump was sort of the coup de grass.
Now a large percentage of this country is banking on

(51:45):
the idea that if Republicans are defeated at the ballot box,
these anti democratic impulses or really it's sort of an
illness will go away. I worry that they won't.

Speaker 7 (52:00):
Well, they never have in the past, for sure. I mean,
we always have those people. But at their highest a
reactionary right wing movement never gets more than thirty three percent,
and that's its ceiling of support in any society, and
certainly in the United States. I would suggest that it
would be possible for us finally to grip or to
come to grips with the idea that we're never going
to get rid of it fully unless we make sure

(52:22):
our guard rails are very very strong. What tends to
happen is we tend to support democracy in the United
States and then think, oh, we're done, everything's good now,
and then of course those reactionary forces gain momentum and
go forward again. And you know, we don't have to
live that way. We don't have to have this pendulum
going back and forth. Other countries don't. We don't have
to do that. I will say. In terms of the darkness,

(52:46):
I think I've got some years on you. And one
of the things that I know a lot of people
who are terrified of the new faces in government and
the new ideas and so on. And you know, one
of the things that I find very comforting, first of all,
is I find new stuff very exciting. But I mean,
I don't know how to say this without sounding a
bit dark, but if you look at the past many years,

(53:06):
it would be hard to do worse than some of
the people who are looked upon as being legitimate American leaders.
And I really don't want to call out individual names,
but it's hard to imagine that you couldn't swing a
cat in a barroom and do better than you know,
Chad Wolf or do better than you know and that

(53:27):
list is not short. Yeah, there you go, Tommy Tupper, Like, literally,
I could cross the street to my ninety some year
old neighbor and he would do a better job than
Tommy Tupperville.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
I mean, it's not saying much, but yeah, for sure, Yeah, no,
I agree. I mean I think that's a good point.
Republicans have been doing this for a long time.

Speaker 7 (53:47):
Yeah, you know, so, am I going to agree with
everything that the next generation of politicians does? Absolutely not,
But you know what, let's take it out for spin.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Yeah, no, I agree. And the reality is, I mean,
even Richard Nixon, who were really hearkening back to another
time he was terrible. So there have been a lot
of terrible Republicans. You did this interview with Joe Biden.
Joe Biden seems to have a real interest in academics
and historians. Can you talk to me about interviewing him

(54:19):
and also about that?

Speaker 7 (54:21):
Yeah, I think he does have an interest in history.
I'm not sure in historians, except as the one reflects
the other, and that is that I think he recognizes
that he has lived through a lot of crucial years
in the United States and has been an actor in
a lot of them. And one of the things that
I have found fascinating about him two things. Actually, one

(54:42):
I have found fascinating is that he is having lived
through the changes he lived through and having to work
with people like strom Thurmond, he has become a really
masterful negotiator, which you know, that's not rocket science. Everybody
says that about him, but you know, it's really astonishing.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
He just negotiated the largest multi country prisoner deal. I
think there's some historical president for this, but not much.

Speaker 7 (55:11):
That's correct, and I would I mean, that is obviously huge.
His focus and his great strength has always been in
foreign affairs. But the one that got me was the
fact that he managed to get through the House of
Representatives under House Speaker Mike Johnson, a Republican of Louisiana,
a National security supplemental bill to give money to Ukraine, and.

Speaker 1 (55:30):
A lot of people thought would never get passed.

Speaker 7 (55:33):
I thought it would never have get passed, and I
would have lost it months before Biden did. And he
just kept scratching away at it, and you know, through
one person and through another until he got it done,
which I just that has just been astonishing to watch.
The other thing that I think is interesting about Biden,
to go back to where we are in this moment

(55:53):
today with the naming of Walsa, the governor of Minnesota,
as the vice presidential nominee, is I think there is
level at which Biden has always held himself or has
been held I'm not going to attribute blame to either
side here from what has been accepted as inside the Beltway,
being part of the in crowd, or maybe not the Beltway,

(56:15):
maybe in the sort of eastern political circles. And I
think he's very aware of that, and I think that
it may in fact have influenced not only his presentation
by the media, but also the way he approached politics.
That is, he is exceedingly warm. He is very aware

(56:36):
of what it means to have to take care of
an ill child or have to put food on the table.
He's very in tune with the kind of world that
is not always represented in, for example, the New York Times,
and that embrace on his part of what could be
characterized as sort of the down home rural experience. I

(57:00):
think it's actually mattered a lot. It's mattered a lot
in the way he has shown in the media, it
matters a lot in the way people interpret him, and
I think it's mattered a lot in the way that
he has governed.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Yeah, he has also just lived through an incredible tragedy.
It's very hard as a Democrat not to look at
the incredible momentum that Harris has and to not feel
that it was the right thing for Joe Biden to
drop out. But I also think that the way it
happened ultimately, you know that those three weeks were critical

(57:33):
in her being able to rally support among the base,
that it really was a sort of seamless process. What's
your thinking.

Speaker 7 (57:41):
I think that's right, and I think he managed it
actually simply beautifully. I was terribly concerned that if he
stepped out that we would get the kind of disarray
and infighting that we saw after nineteen sixty eight, for example,
or in the nineteen sixty eight campaign. And you know,
it was thirty two hours from him announcing after the

(58:02):
talk shows were over on Sunday that he would not
accept the Democratic nomination to her being the presumptive nominee
because she had ironed out all the number of delegates
that she needed. That was absolutely masterful. And I will
also point out that one of the things that he
has always been really good at is taking a bad

(58:23):
situation and in my mind, I see him almost as
if he is stepping on it to something else. What
he did in the way that he tapped Harris for
the nomination was he vaulted himself into the position of
being a statesman. And you know, we haven't had a
real statesman in a very long time in politics. I mean,

(58:46):
we have people like Jimmy Carter, of course, who really
excelled in human rights, but in American politics to be
able to stand above the fray, It's been a long
time since somebody could stand above the and we need
that in this election because somebody's going to have to
be protecting the sanctity of the vote and the ability

(59:06):
to count the vote. And of course that falls under
Biden's Article two powers. So it's going to be hard
for the Supreme Court at that point if he feels
the need to do anything, to say he can't do it.
And similarly, also in his Article two powers are the
ability to conduct foreign affairs. And I will point out
there's one or two little things, and of course I'm

(59:26):
being facetious and not meaning to denigrate anything that are
hanging out there right now that I suspect he would
like to be able to do without being accused of
being partisan if he does them.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yeah, I think that's right. Thank you so much for
joining us, Heather.

Speaker 7 (59:44):
It's always a pleasure, Molly.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Tim Walls is the governor of Minnesota and the presumptive
Democratic vice presidential nominee. Welcome Too Fast Politics.

Speaker 5 (59:58):
Governor Laws, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:01):
You know, Jesse and I have long wanted to have
you on this podcast because some of the progressive legislation
you have passed has become sort of like the wish
list of all liberals. So you're kind of a big deal.

Speaker 5 (01:00:16):
It's like the new Deal. We did the new Deal
out here.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
So yes, you and Governor Pritzker are sort of two
of our people where you've done the impossible. So you
shot to fame in my mind when I saw that
picture of you and the children.

Speaker 5 (01:00:36):
Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Yeah, so talk to me about some of this progressive legislation,
how you've done it. And also can we talk about
that photo of the children when you've signed the free breakfast.

Speaker 5 (01:00:48):
Yeah, well thanks for bringing it up, Molly. I can
die a happy man after that. And look, I've got
a great comms team and everything. And people were writing
them saying this was the most brilliant thing, and they're
also very humble. They said, look, this was organic. We
in Minnesota passed free breakfast and lunch for all of
our kids. No more meal shaming, no more different colored ticket,
no more families having to worry about filling out all

(01:01:10):
the paperwork whatever. For goodness sake, we can feed our children.
So we went out to Webster Elementary School to sign that,
and I did a signing and we had all the
advocates in the legislator, but we were in a school
with these kids and they were kind of just all
setting around. These are elementary school kids, and they were
into this. And I remember my signing statement. I said,
and now all your classmates can eat. And these kids,
they're pure joy of understanding what it means to be

(01:01:33):
a decent human being, just sprung up and they just
kind of mobbed me. It was this happy grandfather photo
type of thing, but just symbolic of what we can do.
So and I think that, you know, going back to
why do we get this done? Because how do you
argue about that? It's just a smart thing. Look, these
are also markets for our farmers out here, or a
big agricultural state. I always try and drop troop bombs

(01:01:54):
on all of you. We produce more turkeys than any
other state, so just so you know, we're the turkey
capital of the world world, and so we have all this.
We produce a ton of food and our kids can eat.
And I think we went into this session saying, look,
there has been a pent up desire and people ask
me what, you know, what are you most proud of?
There is a list of things here that is really awesome.
It's things that we fought for decades over I think

(01:02:16):
For me, it was changing this attitude progressives by nature
are you know, we're progressive and we're hopeful, but we
can also be pessimistic. People, Oh it's a nice day,
but it may snow tomorrow type of thing. Very minispotent
about that. But I said, we were conditioned that bad
things happened. Pasting good things took decades, because twenty years
to get driver's licenses for folks who are undocumented, that
is absolutely ridiculous. They're here, they're working, they're doing stuff.

(01:02:39):
Get them a driver's license. Keep people say we did
all those things at once. So for me, it changed
people's attitude, and especially with young people. I had a
young eighteen year old who worked on a lot of
this stuff, was in turning at first and working and said,
you know, I worked on your campaign governor. We won,
and five months later we have paid family medically, eat
free breakfast and wat is legal. This stuff's not that hard,

(01:02:59):
and I'm like, oh my god, we've created monsters here,
but in a good way. So that's how that came about,
and that I think that photo was just accumulation of
what kind of progressive dreams is. Look when our people,
you know, they want to make it like we have
an extreme agenda. Yep, it's just crazy. We want these
elementary kids to eat. That is just really wild, and
it really just stuck. It was pretty hard to push

(01:03:20):
back against that photo.

Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
When you watch Republicans argue about free mails and those
like we don't want you know, some middle class kid
getting a free breakfast, and you really do see how
little this whole thing makes any sense, right Like you
are a wealthy country.

Speaker 5 (01:03:37):
That's where they're stuck right now. They don't have anything Molly,
And on this one they actually said this to me, Look,
there's going to be people that don't need this tax break.
When have they ever talked about wealthy people that they're
worried that somebody's going to need it who doesn't need it?
And I'm telling you what I heard on this problem
was for those families who did not qualify for free
and produced lunch, whose kids wanted to eat at school

(01:03:57):
and now could and because of the way our country
still you know, the division of labor still falls heavily
on women. Eric mothers date, Thank god, I don't have
to make breakfast in the morning. It's like my life
so much better. That was the thank you like, look,
we can afford it and everything, but this is just
so much easier. So I agree, they got no pushback
on it. That's your pushback. We can't afford to feed
our kids.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
So one of the stark contrasts I think of between
blue state and red steak governors is in Arkansas and
a lot of other states, you have a red steak
governors signing legislation that makes it easier for companies when
they have underage children working, to not have to pay
the same kind of fines because likely they have underage

(01:04:40):
children working. That has been real movement in these red
states to make the fines lesser for child labor. Talk
to me about what it looks like to be a
blue state governor in that kind of America.

Speaker 5 (01:04:53):
Yeah, it feels like Victorian England. David Copperfielders. It was
a really great when showed the contrast. I think it
was the same week I signed the breakfast, I think
the governor of Arkansas signed you know, child labor laws,
and I'll tell you what, her picture did not look
as happy as the kids in my picture who were
organically thrilled. Look that's what they're doing, and unfortunately this
is in very dangerous business. We also are you know,

(01:05:13):
protein backing states from meatpacking plans. These are dangerous places.
There are no places for kids and trying to look,
we're all dealing with, you know, labor shortages that we're
trying to get. We simply take a different approach and
said we're going to protect union workers and we're going
to pay people more and lo and behold. When you
pay people more and give them worker protections, people move
to your state and start working in those businesses. So

(01:05:36):
this truly is the race to the bottom versus the
idea of lifting up and building. And again we're making
the case out here. We did all of these things
and for the first time on the CNBC they do
their survey of the best states for the business climate.
We moved into the top five, replacing Texas. Because it
works when your workers are well paid, they have paid timumitically,
they have healthcare, their children have daycare, they have and

(01:06:00):
you have an education level. Look, we made college free
to folks that are making less than eighty thousand dollars.
Those are those working families that we need to participate
in our economy. So I agree with you. The contrast
could not be greater. And when we start measuring this,
you really start to see it. And I don't know
where the end state is for them. I don't know
how telling people forcing your kids, Oh it'll teach them

(01:06:20):
character whatever, as they lose an arm and you know
in the equipment it makes no sense.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Well, I mean part of that is there's no paths
as citizenships. So these children are smuggled over and they
go get jobs and send all their money home. I
mean it's just as unfair.

Speaker 5 (01:06:35):
Exactly right. And and here for twenty years, we tried
to make the case, you know, post nine to eleven. Oh,
they could be terrified. We didn't give them driver's licenses.
All they wanted to do was drive to work and
then drive over to the school and pick their kid
up and go home. And they're here processing those turkeys
that I talk to you about doing the work is
necessarily paying their taxes. And we made the case here
in Minnesota is look, it is a moral imperative that

(01:06:56):
people be safe, that they be protected, and we provide
healthcare for those children.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
Yeah, talk to me about healthcare, and then just talk
to me about what you're doing on a local level
for healthcare.

Speaker 5 (01:07:06):
Well, you know, we have no system that makes any
sense in this country. We spend twice as much as
the next country in terms of that, and yet we
rank what thirty eighth in maternal mortality rates. It's just
a shame and it really comes home to press here.
We've got more people ensured than I think almost any
other state, and of course we're home to like the
Mayo Clinic. So these are just recognized as the best
healthcare system in the world, which is great if you

(01:07:28):
can get in. And so what we've done is we
have Minnesota Care, which you know, folks can buy in
and need it. We expanded that to folks regardless of
their documentation status because once again, you know, the basic
human rights of being able to take care of folks
on These are folks that are here working in proceeds
that they're waiting for a legal system that is again
takes seven to nine years to get your asylum claim process.
Would have been nice if Congress would have passed the

(01:07:50):
legislation that would make that ninety days and put money
into it, but.

Speaker 1 (01:07:53):
You know, Trump didn't want them to, so of course they.

Speaker 5 (01:07:56):
Don't want to because they want to complain about this
and these are in our communities. So I think for
us here, what really is interesting about this Molly, it
becomes harder and harder. What you know, we asked asking
Republicans and those who don't look at this this way,
is what's your complaint and what's the alternative? You know,
where's this workforce going to come? And I think there's
a real dynamic shift happening and we'll see if it
happens fast enough. The business community. The business community understands

(01:08:18):
that we need to have immigration reform. The business community
needs to believe and they know that we need childcare.
That's a big issue for parents that can't find working
out of the workforce. They get all these things, but
there since so conditioned that many of these chambers of
commerce are just they think it's the old Republican Party.
This is not where elected officials in the Republican Party

(01:08:38):
are at today. So I'm actually somewhat hopeful that we're
making the case that, look, not only can we take
care of people and do the right thing and these
progressive ideas about you should have health care and food
in a safe place to live, and you should be educated.
In the long run, that's how you grow the economy,
and I think in minnesota's starting to work.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
Yeah. I mean, that's a really good point. And Paul
Krugman had a really good piece on the idea that
maybe that this migrant served is actually maybe one of
the things that saved us from having a recession, which
is kind of an incredible idea. So talk to me
about what you are doing with the DGA to bring

(01:09:15):
this idea of abundance national a.

Speaker 5 (01:09:18):
Yeah. Well, and I'm really proud of the DGA. You
mentioned that you've got folks like Baby Pritzker, Gretchen Whitmer,
You've got, of course Gavin Newsom, but you've got folks
Roy Cooper, you got Basher Andy Basheer at in Kentucky.
And on Saturday, this last Saturday, I was at the
Democratic dinner in Topeka, Kansas with Democratic Governor Laura Kelly.
These ideas work everywhere, and I think one of the

(01:09:39):
things the DGA does is we're out there to make
the case that governors are the front lines of protection
on all of these things, certainly on reproductive care in
vitro and voting rights and protections of our children and
food and all this, and that as Congress becomes more
gridlock and paralyzed, it becomes more important than ever to
elect these governors. It's super inspirational. See Lord Kelly, Andy

(01:10:02):
Pasher win. But now we've got to win down in
North Carolina. And so what the DGA does is it
goes out there, it supports, and we're super successful. We've
defended twenty three of twenty four of our incumbent governors
over the last three cycles. This year, we have no
incomebent governors, but we've got as I said, in North Carolina.
After Rui Cooper's term limited, Jay Insley up in Washington State,

(01:10:22):
John Carney and Delaware, we had an open seat in
New Hampshire. The DGA goes out and helps these local candidates.
They know their best message, they know what stands, but
we raise the money, have some of the technical expertise
and try and provide the support to get them elected.
Because you said it, mind, you just want to start
comparing life expectancies, healthcare. Heck, compare happiness. They've got to think.

(01:10:42):
Happiness in Minnesota, by the way, usually ranked second in
this and I'm okay with that because we're behind Hawaii
in the happiest.

Speaker 1 (01:10:52):
Right and you guys have some weather issues.

Speaker 5 (01:10:54):
Yeah, COVID brought this to the front. It's statistically provable.
If you lived in a red state, your chances survived
I think COVID was greater.

Speaker 1 (01:11:01):
Was lesser. If you lived in a blue state, your
chances of surviving COVID were greater.

Speaker 5 (01:11:05):
You shoot me, Yeah, exactly right, and that these red
state governors put you that's exactly right. We're very proud. We're.
One of the things we had is we're one of
the ten states with the lowest death rates on that
and lo and behold, our economy recovered pastor and we
had surpluses. So I think we're out there making the
case that if you want to see your personal life improve,
elect a democratic governor. So if your listeners, Molly, I'll

(01:11:25):
put in a shameless plug for the DGA on that
if they want more information on these great governors, and
trust me. Like in North Carolina with Josh Stein, he
is literally running against the guy as central casting of
a marble villain. This guy is demonized the survivors of
school shootings. He's called school teachers the most evil thing
on the planet. He said, when you're pregnant, it's not

(01:11:46):
your baby, it's all baby now just insanity.

Speaker 1 (01:11:49):
So he doesn't think women should vote correct.

Speaker 5 (01:11:51):
I mean, the guy is on every front. So if
they want more information on these this, if you want
to know where your impact makes a difference, these state
ride races make everything. We're able to codifire abortion rights,
were able to make sure that we're a trans sanctuary
state here in Minnesota. And be clear, I ran against
a guy who had the absolute opposite opinion and all that,
and in states where those type of guys won, life

(01:12:12):
is hell. Women's life is put at risk. The vice
president was out of here last week. For the first
time in American history, is setting vice president or president
stood in an abortion clinic. Abortion clinics are healthcare clinics,
by the way, that's what they're referred to, and stood
in there and talked to a young woman from Idaho
who had to travel from Idaho to Minneapolis figure out
how to do that. Luckily she had the resources and everything.

(01:12:32):
But it's just unacceptable. Democratic governors protect that. So if
they want to text me here it is Molly, It's
Tim at three zero two zero one. And what they'll
do is get information on these races.

Speaker 1 (01:12:43):
Yeah, one of the things I've been really struck by
is the Medicare expansion. One of the things Democrats have
done when they've been in red states is they've been
able and again it depends on the state legislature, but
they've been able to pass these expansions. Explain to us
why it happens when they do that.

Speaker 5 (01:13:01):
For example, and there's two things that are the most
despicable things in the world. Using Medicare expansion, using federal dollars.
And you know, many of the cases of Minnesota is
a payer state, we get far less back from the
federal government to give a lot of these red states
get an awful lot of federal dollars back. But in
the case of Medicare expansion, you're able to expand it
to more people, make the eligibility there. And from a

(01:13:22):
person's on the most basic level of this is it
means somebody who couldn't get access to affordable health care
does in the easiest way, and it comes with the
federal money that helps. You've got to put in a
little bit on state. But there's two things that I
find the most despicable thing in the world. They turn
this down, they being Republican governors, turn it down and
there's been a new program that is an absolute godsend

(01:13:44):
is the Summer EBT program, the Summer SNAP and I
believe it's fifteen of these states have turned it down. Now,
these are folks that my bed is is. I bet
in their businesses they took PPP loans for themselves. I
bet you, they take upsity payments. I bet you they
take other breaks, but on them. The governor of Nebraska
said this just creates dependency, and the governor of Iowa said,

(01:14:04):
we don't have hunger here, which you all know is crazy.
So I think tying back to this, having Roy Cooper
in North Carolina meant eight hundred thousand more North Carolinians
were able to access Medicare at affordable healthcare, which, again,
even if you're a cruel not caring about human beings
getting this, it means they're healthier, they spend less money
in the long run. At the end, more people are
able to work and take fewer days off work, and

(01:14:26):
your economy growth. When people are healthier, your economy does better.
So no, they turn it down, and it's because we
don't want the iman. You know, they don't want socialism.
It's their message. It is the most despicable and those
two programs the most damaging things they can do. But
it apparently appeals to their base. I don't know, I
don't get it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
Just cruel, right, and it's also I mean more likely
the base doesn't know that it's available to them, right,
because nobody is going.

Speaker 5 (01:14:52):
To turn down good point.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
Yeah, and nobody's going to turn that down. And by
the way, they when they turn this money down, it's
not like they get the money first, so they just don't.

Speaker 5 (01:15:01):
Get No, they don't get it, and then apparently they
don't care. That's what this thing with the summary BD program.
You know, these are the worst time for kids in
hunger is the weekends and breaks, as you will, well,
that's why they have to pack, backpack, send food home.
We were at school last year before we were you know,
got through our school meals program, and there's a teacher
talking about that she's had some of her children eating

(01:15:22):
crayon because they couldn't get enough. They didn't know, and
people are assuming, oh, there's there's charity things out there. Whatever.
These are parents that are just trying to make ends meet,
working hard, and it's hard enough to navigate government when
you're not in that situation your child's hungry, or you're
worrying about homelessness or whatever. I just the cruelness of
it is what really strikes me. And I'll tell you
I'm going to make one more plug for what I

(01:15:43):
would encourage states to do and elect democratic governors. During
the pandemic, the federal government at the child tax credit,
we saw the big reduction in childhood poverty in our
nation's history. Well, we took that and put it on steroids.
In Minnesota, we have the most aggressive and generous child
tax credit, seventeen hundred and fifty dollars every child, no
limit on that. Whether you have to file taxes or not,
you get that. We have seen over three hundred thousand

(01:16:06):
children qualified. We have returned four hundred million dollars. And
what it basically assures is in those families for the
first time, they have a guaranteed income source to take
care of those children. It is estimated by all measures
that that will reduce Minnesota's childhood poverty rate by a third.
We're already the third lowest in the country. We will
be by far the lowest of childhood poverty in the country.

(01:16:27):
And again, what I would say is they'll go to school,
they'll have good childcare, their parents will pay femin medically.
But imagine that mom and dad can take time off
after they have the baby to bond with that child.
We're going to have a better, healthier, well qualified workforce
for jobs of the future. So I come back to
this again, Even if you don't want to add the
humanity side of doing this, it's just smart to do.

Speaker 1 (01:16:48):
Yeah, Jesus fundamentally, you know, I spend all day talking
about politics, and the thing that I'm struck by is
that Republicans have terrible policies. Yes, Like there's just not
a single policy where you're like, oh, that's actually kind
of God.

Speaker 5 (01:17:01):
Yeah, And I don't know, maybe it's we're bad at
this year listeners saying this too. For God's sakes, how
do you argue against these things that were making the
case and in the long run, you can save money,
you can have a better economy. Look, if if their
stuff worked, I don't disagree with them because they're Republicans.
I disagree because their ideas don't work and they're weird.
In a lot of cases, you think it you go
was that it worked. I don't have an ideological dog

(01:17:24):
in the fight that I'm going to ram this thing
through just because I like it. On some things, I am,
but none of the big ones. On most of them,
we just wanted to work and they don't really have
a response to it. Hell, they're fighting here. One of
the things Minnesota, you know, we're proud we set troops
to defend the nation, you know, but we had a
flag year that was pretty racist. It showed you know,
indigenous being driven out. You know, it's manifest destiny time,

(01:17:46):
and they did it. So we got a new flag
that included everybody. But oh, you'd have thought the world
ended for Republicans. Now that's their big thing. They need
to be elected this year so they can overturn the
flag and put back up the racist eighteen hundred flag.
That's the whole we can party right now. It's like
a ven diagram of you know, Gadson play some of that.
I don't get it, but I think what we need

(01:18:06):
to do, we need to do a better job of
telling people. Look, I'm a regular dude who hates politics.
If you're that guy that's out there, well, here's how
that's going to save you money. Here's how this's going
to do this. Oh and by the way, we've got
background checks and you know, red flag laws around the guns,
but you can still own a firearm, no problem. We
just don't want you shooting kids in our schools, and
we're going to try new things so you don't. It's
really not that controversial. And I don't think we've done

(01:18:28):
a great job. Apparently we haven't. My God, my wife.
My wife and I are public school teachers, and she said,
we don't need standardized testing to show we're failing. They're
still not voting for us on these things, which I
think we have to do a better job of educating.

Speaker 1 (01:18:40):
All right, you can be her governor next. Thank you governor.

Speaker 5 (01:18:44):
Yes, thanks Bali, you're the best.

Speaker 1 (01:18:48):
No moment full Jesse Cannon.

Speaker 5 (01:18:53):
By John Fast.

Speaker 4 (01:18:53):
I feel like previously the derangement syndromes take a little
while to develop, but Walls derangement syndrome went zero to
one hundred in about two minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:19:03):
I think we should have expected walls derangement syndrome. I
think we should have been waiting for walls derangement syndrome.
Turns out that Republicans are very, very, very very mad
about walls. I just want to point out, like, this
is a man who carved butter into the shape of
a school bus. Okay, he's a very sort of folksy

(01:19:24):
Midwestern guy, and the right wants you to believe he's
a member of Antifa.

Speaker 5 (01:19:29):
Would you say he's driving them up the walls?

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
Thank you, friend, He's not going to build the walls.

Speaker 4 (01:19:39):
He's not.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
Governor Walls most famous for giving poor kids free breakfast.
We did a great interview with him a couple months ago.

Speaker 5 (01:19:47):
Find it they're very mad that he gave students tampons.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
Yeah, he gave students tampons. He is a really great educator.
He is a really great serviceman. I think he's a
really good candidate who connects with the Middle West. So online, right,
not very happy thoughts, prayers, whatever. And as a special,

(01:20:10):
fancy exclusive bonus for those of you who will continue listening,
we are re airing my famous interview with Tim Walls
where he and I really became friends. Tim Walls is
the governor of Minnesota and the presumptive Democratic vice presidential nominee.

(01:20:34):
That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in
every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds
in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you
enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend
and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.

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The Breakfast Club

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Decisions, Decisions

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Gov. Tim Walz, Rep. Nancy Pelosi, Heather Cox Richardson & Harry Litman