October 31, 2024 • 28 mins
In this episode, Michael reveals a key source for his reporting on Donald Trump: Jeffrey Epstein. Through behind-the-scenes stories and never-before-heard recordings, Michael recounts Epstein's candid insights into Trump’s rise, revealing a world of power plays, unsettling competitions, and twisted allegiances. The conversation unearths Epstein’s perspective on Trump’s character, ambition, and his relentless pursuit of power.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Good morning, Michael James. So the end days to go.
I know you spent Sunday with ten thousand of your
closest friends in Madison Square Garden, but it's like two
fifty thousand a million. Will set that aside for a
moment because it's something I'd like to talk to you about,
something we've talked privately about before. But I don't think
(00:25):
you've ever talked about this publicly. A particular secret sauce
when you wrote Fire and Fury.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Right, well, I had many secret sources.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
But this was a particular secret.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Source, quite particular. It was Trump's old friend Jeffrey Epstein
that Jeffrey Epstein. I think we have a snippet from
one of the conversations that I recorded with Epstein, and
I think this was in a restaurant in twenty and seventeen.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
His people fight each other, right, and then have outsiders.
He sort of poisons the well outside. He will tell
ten people bands a scumbag, and priest is not doing
a good job, and Kelly has a big mouth. What
do you think? Jamie Diamond says you're a problem and
(01:16):
I shouldn't keep you, and I spoke to Carl iikar
and call things. I need a new spokespersson, So Kelly,
even though I hired Kelly Ann's husband, Kelly and is
just too much about wild And then he tells Bannon
and you know, I really want to keep you, but
(01:37):
Kelly Ann hates you.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I have more than dozens. I probably have one hundred
hours of Epstein talking about the inner workings of the
Trump White House and about his long standing, deep relationship
with Donald Trump. And that is this week on Fire
(02:00):
and Fury the podcast. Welcome to Fire and Fury the Podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I'm Michael Wolf and I'm James Truman. Well, this past week,
the Epstein Trump connection surfaced again when a well known
model of the nineties, Stacy Williams, gave an interview saying
that while she was dating Epstein, he introduced it to
(02:27):
Trump and Trump virtually upon their introduction. Well, let me
quote as The New York Times reported it, as Trump
and mister Epstein chatted, mister Trump groped Miss Williams. She said,
mister Trump pulled Miss Williams toward him and touched her breasts, waste,
and buttocks. She said it was like an octopus. She said,
I was utterly confused and frozen. After they left Trump Tower,
(02:49):
mister Epstein just berated me for allowing that to happen,
Miss Williams said. She added that she often wondered whether
she'd been part of a bet or a challenge between
the two men. I definitely felt like it was a
piece of meet delivered to that office as some sort
of game.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, I mean I heard this story from Epstein. In
his telling, he was pissed, but at the same time
he seemed to think it was funny. I guess or Trumpian,
and I remember him specifically saying Donald was incapable of
not trying to cop a feel.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Obviously, there been rumors about Epstein and Trump in their
relationship for a long time. I mean, Trump denies it there.
He's also been quoted as extolling Epstein and his young women.
How much do you know about Jeffrey and Donald?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Quite a bit. When I was riding fire and Fury,
I became an outlet for Epstein to express his incredulity
about someone whose sins he knew so well, and then
this person actually being elected president. Epstein was utterly preoccupied
with Trump and I think frankly afraid.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Of him before he was the president, or in.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
The run up, as it became clearer that there was
the possibility that Trump might be president. I even at
that point thought that there was no possibility. But Epstein
was pretty convinced that. I mean, he kept saying, I
know Donald Trump, and he's going to win.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I mean, so many of the people who have been
around Trump and burned by him are have become obsessed
with him. I mean, and I think it's partly all
about that question. How could this have happened? How could
this person who we have seen how he behaves actually
have then become the president of the United States. And
(04:32):
Epstein knew him, really, I think better than most. I mean,
this was a true bff situation. Two playboys very much
styling themselves as playboys in that Hefner sense who piled
around for the better part of fifteen years. This was
a relationship that began in the late eighties eighty seven
(04:52):
or eighty eight, I think, and continued until they had
a fight over real estate, the thing rich guys fight
over in two thousand and four. There's a particular story
that Epstein tells, and it's from the late eighties, maybe
maybe ninety and so it's about Brooklyn real estate. So
Trump's father, Fred was making him look at real estate
(05:15):
in Brooklyn, a big piece of land and lots of
old buildings that they could buy. Now, this was the
last place that Donald Trump wanted to be associated with.
I mean, he had kind of styled himself been reborn
as this Manhattan guy. But his father was making him
do it. And he brought Epstein along to look at
(05:36):
this property with him, and I remember Epstein described. Trump
came in his limo to pick Epstein up, and Epstein
was waiting for Trump on the street with two girls
to beautiful girls at Models. They each were holding a
dog on a leash. Those Afghans Jesus huge dogs, huge dogs.
(05:58):
But then Trump got there. He jumps out of the
car and he says, no dogs, no dogs. I don't
want any dogs in the car. And then Epstein responds,
then no girls. So the dogs came along, and then
they went to Brooklyn, and then Epstein kept making fun
of him the whole way because he was going to
have to become a Brooklyn real estate guy. And then
(06:19):
Epstein said, I'm not going to associate with you anymore.
If you're a Brooklyn real estate guys and the girls
no no more girls, Donald.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
So what was that bumbed? What did they actually see
in each other?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I think that they were nineteen eighties guys. I mean
I think they saw themselves as this was their time,
and they were the embodiment of that moment, which was money, women,
and status. I mean the money was all about the
deal playing the angles essentially get rich quick schemes, and
whether it was Trump's real estate stuff and who he
(06:55):
was borrowing money and how he was borrowing money or
was Epstein you know, a million schemes. I guess money
laundering schemes.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Was Epstein rich at this time?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, you never know how much they I mean, they
certainly looked like they were rich. They were certainly living
like they were rich. Epstein had a plane, I mean
the plane for Epstein and I think also for Trump
became the way of being rich. If you had a plane,
then obviously you were rich. And this was the dawn
of people having their own private planes. And Epstein and
(07:30):
Trump were kind of interesting in distinguished that they didn't
get you know, G four's or whatever they got, you know,
seven fifty sevens. I mean, so they were going to
these big, big planes which they would then redecorate in
kind of baronial style. And the women were all about
(07:50):
kind of top level pulkratude. Models. I mean, this was
the nineteen eighties. Models were the sexual currency of the time,
social the social currency too, and they were very competitive
about the women, you know. So Stacey Williams recalling that
that there was a competition I think is probably exactly accurate.
(08:14):
I mean, there was one point in which they had
a competition about who would be the first one who
would sleep with Princess Diana. Now I don't think that
ever happened.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
But I don't believe though.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And there was a thing Epstein was there was a
period in which he was brought in to be a
Princess Diana walker, in other words, when he would be
seated next to her when the seat became empty. It's
you know, I mean, these guys were playing at the
highest stakes they could play. I mean, there was constant
(08:48):
kind of betting about who could get what girl first.
And then the status thing was all about what money
could buy, and what it could buy in that golden
crusted trump sense in real estate, of course. I mean,
it was always about what real estate could be bought,
you know, I think Epstein saw Trump as essentially bush league.
(09:09):
His old man was rich, but he was from Queens,
And I think Trump saw Epstein the Brooklyn guy who
had achieved this kind of level of cool, which was
I think had a lot to do with the Victoria's
Secret relationship. You know, Epstein had this relationship with Les
Wexner and again his models. Fundamentally at the center of
(09:33):
this was nineteen eighties and model culture.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Is it too prosaic to us? Did Epstein actually like Trump?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I think it pleased Epstein that he could look down
on Trump. Trump the vulgarian, I would say, vulgar. So
it's just the kind of relative I'm more vulgar than you,
And I can't tell if I'm more vulgar than you.
The more vulgar you got elevated your status or I
don't know. Epstein believed that part of his attraction to
(10:04):
Trump is that he had the better plane and that
Trump could ride on his plane because actually at this time,
Trump was in the midst of his big financial difficulties,
so who had the plane was a balance of power thing. Yeah,
there was a story Epstein told about coming up from
Palm Beach with Trump, and they're on Epstein's plane, and
(10:27):
they were with Epstein's girlfriend at the time, and Trump
was trying to impress her. I think again this part
of this constant competition. And Trump wanted to get Epstein
to divert the plane to go to Atlantic City so
they could go to one of Trump's casinos. And the
girl in question, who was European, didn't know, you know,
(10:49):
what Atlantic City was. And Trump was saying that Atlantic
City was going to be the new Las Vegas and
Trump was going to be the king of the new
Las Vegas. And Epstein then told the girl Trump was
the king, but he was the white trash king in
Atlantic City was the white trash kingdom.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I mean, you can imagine that being said as sort
of bro bonome, or you can imagine it being said
with kind secret disgust from one to the other.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I think this was part of the patter that went on.
But I think it was this constant balancing of status,
who was up, who was down, Who was the real
cool guy and who was the fake cool guy, and
whose riches were richer, yeah, and whose girls were higher
on the nineteen eighties girl hierarchy do we.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Know if at this time Epstein was hanging out with
the underage girls or was that something he kept closeted
and away from his coterie of the people around him.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
At this point, I don't know. I mean, certainly later
I think it was clear. I mean that that was
sort of the Palm Beach phase. I think it began
there and then Trump was certainly kind of in and
out of Epstein's house and worlds, so I think knew
something about that. But I think at this point it
(12:14):
was part of this competition, part of how did the
girls elevate? You I mean, they enjoyed the competition, and
I think that Trump was envious about Epstein's girlfriends, which
included actresses and models. I mean Stacy Williams, the model
who has just come forward, you know, a very kind
of well known model of the moment, sports illustrated swimsuit model.
(12:39):
So you know, I think that this was always part
of the admiration that Trump had for Epstein, And in fact,
there was a moment in which they actually they shared
a girlfriend. They were both openly, possibly proudly going out
with the same girl at the same time. Who that was,
(13:01):
I do, yeah, can you tell me no, I't no.
But you know, let me just make the point that
in a moment in time there was a particular kind
of sexual excess and license and cruelty, masculine cruelty, rich
guy masculine cruelty that was not just allowed but celebrated. Yeah,
(13:24):
they think that Epstein and Trump really were two of
its exaggerated exponents. Of course, we see now Epstein as
the sexual monster, but certainly, you know, at least in
Epstein's telling, he and Trump were pretty much in this
regard brothers in arms. There was a beauty pageant that
(13:44):
was organized that at mar A Lago. Remember Trump is
in the pageant business, and Trump organized it and put
it together. It was miss I don't know, Miss something
or other, and you know, girls were brought in and
they were told it was a big deal, a major event,
and flown into mar A Lago. And when they arrived
on the mar A Lago stage, these girls for the
(14:05):
beauty pageant, the only people there to see them were
Epstein and Trump.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I mean, was was there any awareness on Epstein's part
that there was something gross going on here? Was he
an equal participant?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I mean, I certainly never got an indication that Epstein
was questioning himself. Yeah, but in fact he seemed to
regard Trump's behavior as somehow proving that his own was
far more reasonable.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Interesting, you know, I remember he said about Trump. Now,
of course, this is Jeffrey Epstein saying this, which actually
kind of magnifies the description. But he said that Trump
has no scruples.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Good lord, Wow, great insight with an absolute lack of
self knowledge.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
We'll be back right after the rate. Epstein. He said
that Trump had a fetish. Again, this is, according to Epstein,
about trying to sleep with his friend's wives. That this
was high sport for Donald Trump. And Epstein seemed to
(15:20):
draw the line here. And Epstein had a story that
he said that Trump used to invite the prospective wife
to his office and then get the husband on the phone,
but not tell the husband that the wife was sitting
there listening, and then engage the husband in sex talk
about who he was fucking.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Oh, come on, do you believe that happened? I, you know,
vocals to mind.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, I'm just reporting. I actually included that story in
Fire and Fury.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
It's so medieval. It's like the king sleeping with his
Simpleton's bride on the wedding night. I mean, it's really dark.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
There was a scene in the early nineties, I think,
and they were at a place in New York called
the China Club, which was a moment in time place
on the Upper West Side, as I recall, and Epstein
describes Trump pinning a waitress against the bar as the
room looks.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
On, as the room looks on, So there was an
exhibition this quality to us as well. I mean it
was like getting away with it quality. Yeah, I can
get away.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I think this was this moment in time. I can
only explain it like that because one cannot imagine this
occurring now or even at any moment in the last generation.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, And was Trump married at this time, Well.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I think Trump was in and out of the fauna
of these marriages, of which Epstein was particularly involved with.
You know, there's a woman named Jill Harth and she's
made this accusation public that Trump jumped on her in
Avanka's bedroom at mar A Lago.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And what was the story about when Marlon Maples was.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Now and then Marlon Maples got you know, before they
were married, got pregnant, and you know, and you know
according to Epstein, you know, they spent he and he
and Trump spent a lot of time about how to
deal with this, you know, which Trump clearly did not
want to have the child, and what were his options,
(17:27):
what were his recourses, and how could he convince Marlon
Maples not to have the child, which he seems not
to have succeeded in doing.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, this is getting creepy.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah no, no, no, I mean, let's get to the
creepiest framing of this, which is, you know, here are
these two guys, both driven by a need to do
anything they wanted with women, dominance and submission and entertainment,
and one of them ends up in the darkest prison
in the country and the other in the way house. Yes,
(18:01):
explain that.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I think of one other thing they have in common.
And they both had putative fortunes whose origin was about
the most obscure thing you could imagine, whether they actually
had any money, whether it was all bluff. I mean,
what was Epstein's perspective on Trump's fortunes.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Well, he spent a lot of time, and he was
kind of fascinated by this and knowledgeable. I mean, Epstein
maintained that he spent as much time talking about women,
they talked about money, which clearly makes sense. And in
Epstein's view, Trump had no money, that it was all
an illusion, and that his net worth simply derived from
ignoring his liabilities. And in Epstein's theory about Trump's hidden
(18:41):
tax returns was that during the nineteen nineties, when Trump
was in extremists and the banks forgave him liabilities of
almost a billion dollars, and Epstein pointed out that the
forgiveness of those debts should have shown up as income,
but that would have amounted to five hundred million dollar
(19:01):
tax bill, assuming Trump is in a fifty percent category,
which of course he would be. Trump obviously didn't have
the money because he had no money, which is why
he was had to be forgiven these debts. Hence this
forgiveness never showed up on his returns. In fact, the
money thing or the real estate thing was then involved
with their falling out.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, well, what were the circumstances of that. I mean,
Trump revisionist says, I just realized he was not a
good guy, right and end of the friendship. But obviously that's.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
No well, let's see, I mean, that's that other layer
of this that Trump has been able to just kind
of say, pay no attention to this. I really didn't.
There are the pictures here, and there are this, yeah,
and you know the whole timeline of a relationship, but
pay no attention.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
To another universe that happened. Yeah, extraordinary, you know. I didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I didn't never really knew him. But in two thousand
and four, Epstein had the high bid on a house
in Palm Beach. I think the bid was thirty six
million dollars, and then he brought Trump along to give
him some advice about moving the swimming pool. And it
was interesting that Epstein would say Trump was not really
a real estate guy in the mogul sense, because he
(20:13):
couldn't do deals, He couldn't read a balance sheet. Epstein
would say he was enumerate, which has to do with
the exaggeration of Trump's numbers all the time. They just
free floated.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
In his head.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
But Epstein said that actually Trump was a very good contractor.
He brought Trump along to give him some advice about
moving the swimming pool. But then Trump went around Epstein's
back and bid forty million dollars for the house. So
this is classic rich guy breakdown. Yeah, but then Epstein
(20:48):
knew that Trump didn't have the money. Therefore, Epstein's conclusion
was that he must be fronting for someone, and in fact,
in that classic money laundering setup, Trump bought the house
for forty million, bought it through borrowed money, and then
the house was put on the market not long afterwards
and then immediately sold for ninety six million dollars to
(21:12):
one of the oligarchs in the close Pooty circle. I mean,
it's like, okay, Neon. So Epstein was pissed, of course,
and he began to threaten lawsuits, and he began to
threaten press exposure. I mean, he was really, really, really
pissed when those guys lose a dream house. And that
(21:35):
was the point at which Epstein's own legal problems, the
problems with the girls began, And certainly, in Epstein's telling,
this all happened because it was Trump who first dropped
the dime on him. And Trump would have known about
the girls because he was in and out of Epstein's
(21:56):
house when Epstein and I were talking about this. Trump
was now the president of the United States. And I
think frightening, I mean frightening both because of because the
most inappropriate person to be the president of the United
States was probably Donald Trump, Yes, but also I couldn't
help but feel that there was a level of personal
(22:17):
fear there. So he's having this conversation with me, and
as I say, I'm writing Fire and Fury, I'm trying
to figure out Donald Trump as confounding to me, of course,
as it was to everybody who was this guy? How
did this happen? But having this conversation, Epstein on more
than one occasion, would bring out these photographs that he
(22:40):
had of Trump, and there were about a half a
dozen photographs, and they were, you know, from the late nineties.
They were Trump at Epstein's Palm Beach house, sitting around
the pool with these young girls, and the young girls
are topless, and in some of the pictures they're sitting
(23:03):
in his lap, I mean. And then there's one I
especially remember where there's a stain, a telltale stain on
the front of Trump's pants, and the girls are pointing
at him and laughing.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Where are these pictures?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You know? He would go and he would take them
out of the safe, and then he would return them
to the safe, and I would say it was likely
that they would have been there when the FBI. Trump's
FBI at that point, not to put too fine a
point on it, raided Epstein's house and took the contents
of the stafe in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Wow, is there a Steve Bannon connection in this? That's
been a lot of reports about Epstein and Bannon.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I introduced them, Well, I mean, this is you.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
We will go to heaven, Michael.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
This is the thing. I'm talking to both of those guys,
and they both wanted to meet each other. So here
I am in the middle of this. When was this
This would have been after Bannon was pushed out of.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
The White House, like twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, so it would have been probably the fall of
twenty and seventeen.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And Trump had fallen out several years before.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, that was Remember they fell out in two thousand
and four. So Epstein is just watching watching Trump, the
guy he knows from the sidelines, and then Bannon now
has now fallen out with Trump, so they instantly bonded.
I mean, I saw this a meet. It was like
two long lost brothers and they couldn't get enough of
(24:39):
each trying to explain Donald Trump to the other, but
even to themselves. I think they both hated Donald Trump,
or he had come to be so big in their
head that they hated him. And then they were confounded
by this phenomenon. So again it was how to explain this?
How to explain this? And then I remember exactly the
moment they were introduced, and then said to Epstein, you
(25:02):
were the only person I was afraid of in twenty sixteen,
because Bannon knew that Epstein and Trump had been close,
and I think that he assumed that was not going
to be good news for someone running to be the
president of the United States. And he also knew that
in twenty sixteen sixty minutes was planning in Epstein Trump
(25:23):
expose what happened to that. I suppose the same thing
that happened to all Epstein Trump reports. You know, these
two guys were friends for fifteen years, the president of
the United States and the most vilified sexual predator of
the age, and yet somehow we know very little about this.
I know that every time that I've tried to tell
(25:43):
what I know about this story, I've met a do
we really want to go there? Response? It's like, you know,
Epstein is just too hot to handle, so I don't know.
I mean, I've actually spoken to the sixty Minutes producer
who was trying to do this, and I think that
you get to the level of the allegations and the
(26:04):
implications are so large unless you have the smoking gun
and so anecdotal evidence, even a pilon of it, which yeah,
I think we're offering here is something that large media
outlets stay away from.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I mean, do you think Epstein committed suicide in jail
or was he murdered?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I mean, it was always startled by how afraid he
seemed about Trump. And I've spoken to several other people
who knew Epstein well and they make the same point
and wondering what that's about. And I know that Epstein
would emphasize how he believed Trump was capable of doing anything.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
He had no scruples, you know. And I urged Epstein
to go public with everything I've told you here. But
in Epstein's attitude was that I was clearly unaware of
how the real world operated. So in the end, Epstein
died in prison and will probably never hear that story.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I remember you once said to me, and I think
you were cutting someone else that Epstein couldn't have killed
himself in jail. It also made no sense that he
was murdered in jail. Do you remember that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
No, I mean, the descriptions of how he died seemed
completely implausible to have to break your own neck. But
the idea of him being murdered seems to also imply
that you would have all of these assistant US attorneys
and FBI agents who had to keep their mouths shut.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So, yes, here we are, and Jeffrey Epstein's old friend
may be about to become the president again.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Thank you, James, Thank you, Michael.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's all the time we have for today. We'll be
back next week. Fire and Fury.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
The podcast is hosted and executive produced by Michael Wolfe
and James Truman.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
The producers are Adam Waller and Emily Maronoff. Executive producers
for Kaleidoscope are Mangesh Hatigea and Os Valoshan. Executive producers
for iHeart On, Nikki Ittoo, and Katrina Novel
Good morning, Michael James. So the end days to go.
I know you spent Sunday with ten thousand of your
closest friends in Madison Square Garden, but it's like two
fifty thousand a million. Will set that aside for a
moment because it's something I'd like to talk to you about,
something we've talked privately about before. But I don't think
(00:25):
you've ever talked about this publicly. A particular secret sauce
when you wrote Fire and Fury.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Right, well, I had many secret sources.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
But this was a particular secret.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Source, quite particular. It was Trump's old friend Jeffrey Epstein
that Jeffrey Epstein. I think we have a snippet from
one of the conversations that I recorded with Epstein, and
I think this was in a restaurant in twenty and seventeen.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
His people fight each other, right, and then have outsiders.
He sort of poisons the well outside. He will tell
ten people bands a scumbag, and priest is not doing
a good job, and Kelly has a big mouth. What
do you think? Jamie Diamond says you're a problem and
(01:16):
I shouldn't keep you, and I spoke to Carl iikar
and call things. I need a new spokespersson, So Kelly,
even though I hired Kelly Ann's husband, Kelly and is
just too much about wild And then he tells Bannon
and you know, I really want to keep you, but
(01:37):
Kelly Ann hates you.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I have more than dozens. I probably have one hundred
hours of Epstein talking about the inner workings of the
Trump White House and about his long standing, deep relationship
with Donald Trump. And that is this week on Fire
(02:00):
and Fury the podcast. Welcome to Fire and Fury the Podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I'm Michael Wolf and I'm James Truman. Well, this past week,
the Epstein Trump connection surfaced again when a well known
model of the nineties, Stacy Williams, gave an interview saying
that while she was dating Epstein, he introduced it to
(02:27):
Trump and Trump virtually upon their introduction. Well, let me
quote as The New York Times reported it, as Trump
and mister Epstein chatted, mister Trump groped Miss Williams. She said,
mister Trump pulled Miss Williams toward him and touched her breasts, waste,
and buttocks. She said it was like an octopus. She said,
I was utterly confused and frozen. After they left Trump Tower,
(02:49):
mister Epstein just berated me for allowing that to happen,
Miss Williams said. She added that she often wondered whether
she'd been part of a bet or a challenge between
the two men. I definitely felt like it was a
piece of meet delivered to that office as some sort
of game.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, I mean I heard this story from Epstein. In
his telling, he was pissed, but at the same time
he seemed to think it was funny. I guess or Trumpian,
and I remember him specifically saying Donald was incapable of
not trying to cop a feel.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Obviously, there been rumors about Epstein and Trump in their
relationship for a long time. I mean, Trump denies it there.
He's also been quoted as extolling Epstein and his young women.
How much do you know about Jeffrey and Donald?
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Quite a bit. When I was riding fire and Fury,
I became an outlet for Epstein to express his incredulity
about someone whose sins he knew so well, and then
this person actually being elected president. Epstein was utterly preoccupied
with Trump and I think frankly afraid.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Of him before he was the president, or in.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
The run up, as it became clearer that there was
the possibility that Trump might be president. I even at
that point thought that there was no possibility. But Epstein
was pretty convinced that. I mean, he kept saying, I
know Donald Trump, and he's going to win.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
I mean, so many of the people who have been
around Trump and burned by him are have become obsessed
with him. I mean, and I think it's partly all
about that question. How could this have happened? How could
this person who we have seen how he behaves actually
have then become the president of the United States. And
(04:32):
Epstein knew him, really, I think better than most. I mean,
this was a true bff situation. Two playboys very much
styling themselves as playboys in that Hefner sense who piled
around for the better part of fifteen years. This was
a relationship that began in the late eighties eighty seven
(04:52):
or eighty eight, I think, and continued until they had
a fight over real estate, the thing rich guys fight
over in two thousand and four. There's a particular story
that Epstein tells, and it's from the late eighties, maybe
maybe ninety and so it's about Brooklyn real estate. So
Trump's father, Fred was making him look at real estate
(05:15):
in Brooklyn, a big piece of land and lots of
old buildings that they could buy. Now, this was the
last place that Donald Trump wanted to be associated with.
I mean, he had kind of styled himself been reborn
as this Manhattan guy. But his father was making him
do it. And he brought Epstein along to look at
(05:36):
this property with him, and I remember Epstein described. Trump
came in his limo to pick Epstein up, and Epstein
was waiting for Trump on the street with two girls
to beautiful girls at Models. They each were holding a
dog on a leash. Those Afghans Jesus huge dogs, huge dogs.
(05:58):
But then Trump got there. He jumps out of the
car and he says, no dogs, no dogs. I don't
want any dogs in the car. And then Epstein responds,
then no girls. So the dogs came along, and then
they went to Brooklyn, and then Epstein kept making fun
of him the whole way because he was going to
have to become a Brooklyn real estate guy. And then
(06:19):
Epstein said, I'm not going to associate with you anymore.
If you're a Brooklyn real estate guys and the girls
no no more girls, Donald.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
So what was that bumbed? What did they actually see
in each other?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I think that they were nineteen eighties guys. I mean
I think they saw themselves as this was their time,
and they were the embodiment of that moment, which was money, women,
and status. I mean the money was all about the
deal playing the angles essentially get rich quick schemes, and
whether it was Trump's real estate stuff and who he
(06:55):
was borrowing money and how he was borrowing money or
was Epstein you know, a million schemes. I guess money
laundering schemes.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Was Epstein rich at this time?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Well, you never know how much they I mean, they
certainly looked like they were rich. They were certainly living
like they were rich. Epstein had a plane, I mean
the plane for Epstein and I think also for Trump
became the way of being rich. If you had a plane,
then obviously you were rich. And this was the dawn
of people having their own private planes. And Epstein and
(07:30):
Trump were kind of interesting in distinguished that they didn't
get you know, G four's or whatever they got, you know,
seven fifty sevens. I mean, so they were going to
these big, big planes which they would then redecorate in
kind of baronial style. And the women were all about
(07:50):
kind of top level pulkratude. Models. I mean, this was
the nineteen eighties. Models were the sexual currency of the time,
social the social currency too, and they were very competitive
about the women, you know. So Stacey Williams recalling that
that there was a competition I think is probably exactly accurate.
(08:14):
I mean, there was one point in which they had
a competition about who would be the first one who
would sleep with Princess Diana. Now I don't think that
ever happened.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
But I don't believe though.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
And there was a thing Epstein was there was a
period in which he was brought in to be a
Princess Diana walker, in other words, when he would be
seated next to her when the seat became empty. It's
you know, I mean, these guys were playing at the
highest stakes they could play. I mean, there was constant
(08:48):
kind of betting about who could get what girl first.
And then the status thing was all about what money
could buy, and what it could buy in that golden
crusted trump sense in real estate, of course. I mean,
it was always about what real estate could be bought,
you know, I think Epstein saw Trump as essentially bush league.
(09:09):
His old man was rich, but he was from Queens,
And I think Trump saw Epstein the Brooklyn guy who
had achieved this kind of level of cool, which was
I think had a lot to do with the Victoria's
Secret relationship. You know, Epstein had this relationship with Les
Wexner and again his models. Fundamentally at the center of
(09:33):
this was nineteen eighties and model culture.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Is it too prosaic to us? Did Epstein actually like Trump?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
I think it pleased Epstein that he could look down
on Trump. Trump the vulgarian, I would say, vulgar. So
it's just the kind of relative I'm more vulgar than you,
And I can't tell if I'm more vulgar than you.
The more vulgar you got elevated your status or I
don't know. Epstein believed that part of his attraction to
(10:04):
Trump is that he had the better plane and that
Trump could ride on his plane because actually at this time,
Trump was in the midst of his big financial difficulties,
so who had the plane was a balance of power thing. Yeah,
there was a story Epstein told about coming up from
Palm Beach with Trump, and they're on Epstein's plane, and
(10:27):
they were with Epstein's girlfriend at the time, and Trump
was trying to impress her. I think again this part
of this constant competition. And Trump wanted to get Epstein
to divert the plane to go to Atlantic City so
they could go to one of Trump's casinos. And the
girl in question, who was European, didn't know, you know,
(10:49):
what Atlantic City was. And Trump was saying that Atlantic
City was going to be the new Las Vegas and
Trump was going to be the king of the new
Las Vegas. And Epstein then told the girl Trump was
the king, but he was the white trash king in
Atlantic City was the white trash kingdom.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I mean, you can imagine that being said as sort
of bro bonome, or you can imagine it being said
with kind secret disgust from one to the other.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I think this was part of the patter that went on.
But I think it was this constant balancing of status,
who was up, who was down, Who was the real
cool guy and who was the fake cool guy, and
whose riches were richer, yeah, and whose girls were higher
on the nineteen eighties girl hierarchy do we.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Know if at this time Epstein was hanging out with
the underage girls or was that something he kept closeted
and away from his coterie of the people around him.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
At this point, I don't know. I mean, certainly later
I think it was clear. I mean that that was
sort of the Palm Beach phase. I think it began
there and then Trump was certainly kind of in and
out of Epstein's house and worlds, so I think knew
something about that. But I think at this point it
(12:14):
was part of this competition, part of how did the
girls elevate? You I mean, they enjoyed the competition, and
I think that Trump was envious about Epstein's girlfriends, which
included actresses and models. I mean Stacy Williams, the model
who has just come forward, you know, a very kind
of well known model of the moment, sports illustrated swimsuit model.
(12:39):
So you know, I think that this was always part
of the admiration that Trump had for Epstein, And in fact,
there was a moment in which they actually they shared
a girlfriend. They were both openly, possibly proudly going out
with the same girl at the same time. Who that was,
(13:01):
I do, yeah, can you tell me no, I't no.
But you know, let me just make the point that
in a moment in time there was a particular kind
of sexual excess and license and cruelty, masculine cruelty, rich
guy masculine cruelty that was not just allowed but celebrated. Yeah,
(13:24):
they think that Epstein and Trump really were two of
its exaggerated exponents. Of course, we see now Epstein as
the sexual monster, but certainly, you know, at least in
Epstein's telling, he and Trump were pretty much in this
regard brothers in arms. There was a beauty pageant that
(13:44):
was organized that at mar A Lago. Remember Trump is
in the pageant business, and Trump organized it and put
it together. It was miss I don't know, Miss something
or other, and you know, girls were brought in and
they were told it was a big deal, a major event,
and flown into mar A Lago. And when they arrived
on the mar A Lago stage, these girls for the
(14:05):
beauty pageant, the only people there to see them were
Epstein and Trump.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
I mean, was was there any awareness on Epstein's part
that there was something gross going on here? Was he
an equal participant?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I mean, I certainly never got an indication that Epstein
was questioning himself. Yeah, but in fact he seemed to
regard Trump's behavior as somehow proving that his own was
far more reasonable.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Ah.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Interesting, you know, I remember he said about Trump. Now,
of course, this is Jeffrey Epstein saying this, which actually
kind of magnifies the description. But he said that Trump
has no scruples.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Good lord, Wow, great insight with an absolute lack of
self knowledge.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
We'll be back right after the rate. Epstein. He said
that Trump had a fetish. Again, this is, according to Epstein,
about trying to sleep with his friend's wives. That this
was high sport for Donald Trump. And Epstein seemed to
(15:20):
draw the line here. And Epstein had a story that
he said that Trump used to invite the prospective wife
to his office and then get the husband on the phone,
but not tell the husband that the wife was sitting
there listening, and then engage the husband in sex talk
about who he was fucking.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Oh, come on, do you believe that happened? I, you know,
vocals to mind.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, I'm just reporting. I actually included that story in
Fire and Fury.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
It's so medieval. It's like the king sleeping with his
Simpleton's bride on the wedding night. I mean, it's really dark.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
There was a scene in the early nineties, I think,
and they were at a place in New York called
the China Club, which was a moment in time place
on the Upper West Side, as I recall, and Epstein
describes Trump pinning a waitress against the bar as the
room looks.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
On, as the room looks on, So there was an
exhibition this quality to us as well. I mean it
was like getting away with it quality. Yeah, I can
get away.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
I think this was this moment in time. I can
only explain it like that because one cannot imagine this
occurring now or even at any moment in the last generation.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, And was Trump married at this time, Well.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
I think Trump was in and out of the fauna
of these marriages, of which Epstein was particularly involved with.
You know, there's a woman named Jill Harth and she's
made this accusation public that Trump jumped on her in
Avanka's bedroom at mar A Lago.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And what was the story about when Marlon Maples was.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Now and then Marlon Maples got you know, before they
were married, got pregnant, and you know, and you know
according to Epstein, you know, they spent he and he
and Trump spent a lot of time about how to
deal with this, you know, which Trump clearly did not
want to have the child, and what were his options,
(17:27):
what were his recourses, and how could he convince Marlon
Maples not to have the child, which he seems not
to have succeeded in doing.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, this is getting creepy.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah no, no, no, I mean, let's get to the
creepiest framing of this, which is, you know, here are
these two guys, both driven by a need to do
anything they wanted with women, dominance and submission and entertainment,
and one of them ends up in the darkest prison
in the country and the other in the way house. Yes,
(18:01):
explain that.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I think of one other thing they have in common.
And they both had putative fortunes whose origin was about
the most obscure thing you could imagine, whether they actually
had any money, whether it was all bluff. I mean,
what was Epstein's perspective on Trump's fortunes.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Well, he spent a lot of time, and he was
kind of fascinated by this and knowledgeable. I mean, Epstein
maintained that he spent as much time talking about women,
they talked about money, which clearly makes sense. And in
Epstein's view, Trump had no money, that it was all
an illusion, and that his net worth simply derived from
ignoring his liabilities. And in Epstein's theory about Trump's hidden
(18:41):
tax returns was that during the nineteen nineties, when Trump
was in extremists and the banks forgave him liabilities of
almost a billion dollars, and Epstein pointed out that the
forgiveness of those debts should have shown up as income,
but that would have amounted to five hundred million dollar
(19:01):
tax bill, assuming Trump is in a fifty percent category,
which of course he would be. Trump obviously didn't have
the money because he had no money, which is why
he was had to be forgiven these debts. Hence this
forgiveness never showed up on his returns. In fact, the
money thing or the real estate thing was then involved
with their falling out.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, well, what were the circumstances of that. I mean,
Trump revisionist says, I just realized he was not a
good guy, right and end of the friendship. But obviously that's.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
No well, let's see, I mean, that's that other layer
of this that Trump has been able to just kind
of say, pay no attention to this. I really didn't.
There are the pictures here, and there are this, yeah,
and you know the whole timeline of a relationship, but
pay no attention.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
To another universe that happened. Yeah, extraordinary, you know. I didn't.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I didn't never really knew him. But in two thousand
and four, Epstein had the high bid on a house
in Palm Beach. I think the bid was thirty six
million dollars, and then he brought Trump along to give
him some advice about moving the swimming pool. And it
was interesting that Epstein would say Trump was not really
a real estate guy in the mogul sense, because he
(20:13):
couldn't do deals, He couldn't read a balance sheet. Epstein
would say he was enumerate, which has to do with
the exaggeration of Trump's numbers all the time. They just
free floated.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
In his head.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
But Epstein said that actually Trump was a very good contractor.
He brought Trump along to give him some advice about
moving the swimming pool. But then Trump went around Epstein's
back and bid forty million dollars for the house. So
this is classic rich guy breakdown. Yeah, but then Epstein
(20:48):
knew that Trump didn't have the money. Therefore, Epstein's conclusion
was that he must be fronting for someone, and in fact,
in that classic money laundering setup, Trump bought the house
for forty million, bought it through borrowed money, and then
the house was put on the market not long afterwards
and then immediately sold for ninety six million dollars to
(21:12):
one of the oligarchs in the close Pooty circle. I mean,
it's like, okay, Neon. So Epstein was pissed, of course,
and he began to threaten lawsuits, and he began to
threaten press exposure. I mean, he was really, really, really
pissed when those guys lose a dream house. And that
(21:35):
was the point at which Epstein's own legal problems, the
problems with the girls began, And certainly, in Epstein's telling,
this all happened because it was Trump who first dropped
the dime on him. And Trump would have known about
the girls because he was in and out of Epstein's
(21:56):
house when Epstein and I were talking about this. Trump
was now the president of the United States. And I
think frightening, I mean frightening both because of because the
most inappropriate person to be the president of the United
States was probably Donald Trump, Yes, but also I couldn't
help but feel that there was a level of personal
(22:17):
fear there. So he's having this conversation with me, and
as I say, I'm writing Fire and Fury, I'm trying
to figure out Donald Trump as confounding to me, of course,
as it was to everybody who was this guy? How
did this happen? But having this conversation, Epstein on more
than one occasion, would bring out these photographs that he
(22:40):
had of Trump, and there were about a half a
dozen photographs, and they were, you know, from the late nineties.
They were Trump at Epstein's Palm Beach house, sitting around
the pool with these young girls, and the young girls
are topless, and in some of the pictures they're sitting
(23:03):
in his lap, I mean. And then there's one I
especially remember where there's a stain, a telltale stain on
the front of Trump's pants, and the girls are pointing
at him and laughing.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Where are these pictures?
Speaker 2 (23:20):
You know? He would go and he would take them
out of the safe, and then he would return them
to the safe, and I would say it was likely
that they would have been there when the FBI. Trump's
FBI at that point, not to put too fine a
point on it, raided Epstein's house and took the contents
of the stafe in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Wow, is there a Steve Bannon connection in this? That's
been a lot of reports about Epstein and Bannon.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I introduced them, Well, I mean, this is you.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
We will go to heaven, Michael.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
This is the thing. I'm talking to both of those guys,
and they both wanted to meet each other. So here
I am in the middle of this. When was this
This would have been after Bannon was pushed out of.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
The White House, like twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, so it would have been probably the fall of
twenty and seventeen.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
And Trump had fallen out several years before.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, that was Remember they fell out in two thousand
and four. So Epstein is just watching watching Trump, the
guy he knows from the sidelines, and then Bannon now
has now fallen out with Trump, so they instantly bonded.
I mean, I saw this a meet. It was like
two long lost brothers and they couldn't get enough of
(24:39):
each trying to explain Donald Trump to the other, but
even to themselves. I think they both hated Donald Trump,
or he had come to be so big in their
head that they hated him. And then they were confounded
by this phenomenon. So again it was how to explain this?
How to explain this? And then I remember exactly the
moment they were introduced, and then said to Epstein, you
(25:02):
were the only person I was afraid of in twenty sixteen,
because Bannon knew that Epstein and Trump had been close,
and I think that he assumed that was not going
to be good news for someone running to be the
president of the United States. And he also knew that
in twenty sixteen sixty minutes was planning in Epstein Trump
(25:23):
expose what happened to that. I suppose the same thing
that happened to all Epstein Trump reports. You know, these
two guys were friends for fifteen years, the president of
the United States and the most vilified sexual predator of
the age, and yet somehow we know very little about this.
I know that every time that I've tried to tell
(25:43):
what I know about this story, I've met a do
we really want to go there? Response? It's like, you know,
Epstein is just too hot to handle, so I don't know.
I mean, I've actually spoken to the sixty Minutes producer
who was trying to do this, and I think that
you get to the level of the allegations and the
(26:04):
implications are so large unless you have the smoking gun
and so anecdotal evidence, even a pilon of it, which yeah,
I think we're offering here is something that large media
outlets stay away from.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
I mean, do you think Epstein committed suicide in jail
or was he murdered?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
I mean, it was always startled by how afraid he
seemed about Trump. And I've spoken to several other people
who knew Epstein well and they make the same point
and wondering what that's about. And I know that Epstein
would emphasize how he believed Trump was capable of doing anything.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
He had no scruples, you know. And I urged Epstein
to go public with everything I've told you here. But
in Epstein's attitude was that I was clearly unaware of
how the real world operated. So in the end, Epstein
died in prison and will probably never hear that story.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I remember you once said to me, and I think
you were cutting someone else that Epstein couldn't have killed
himself in jail. It also made no sense that he
was murdered in jail. Do you remember that? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
No, I mean, the descriptions of how he died seemed
completely implausible to have to break your own neck. But
the idea of him being murdered seems to also imply
that you would have all of these assistant US attorneys
and FBI agents who had to keep their mouths shut.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
So, yes, here we are, and Jeffrey Epstein's old friend
may be about to become the president again.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Thank you, James, Thank you, Michael.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's all the time we have for today. We'll be
back next week. Fire and Fury.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
The podcast is hosted and executive produced by Michael Wolfe
and James Truman.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
The producers are Adam Waller and Emily Maronoff. Executive producers
for Kaleidoscope are Mangesh Hatigea and Os Valoshan. Executive producers
for iHeart On, Nikki Ittoo, and Katrina Novel
Hosts And Creators
James Truman
Michael Wolff
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