October 8, 2024 • 37 mins
Dating isn't easy, but personal development coach Dr. Thais Gibson is here to help.
She guides Rachel in navigating finding love based on understanding her attachment style.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Rachel gos Rogue. Welcome to another episode of
Rachel Goes Rogue with your host, Rachel Savannah Levis. Today
I'm joined by personal development coach, author, and co founder
of the Personal Development School, doctor Tyis Gibson. Doctor Tys
(00:26):
is an expert on attachment theory, emotional healing, and transforming relationships.
If you've ever wondered how your upbringing or past experiences
affect your relationships, or if you're looking for tools to
better understand yourself and your partners, this episode is for you.
(00:47):
In this episode, we talk a lot about attachment styles,
is it possible to change into a secure attachment style?
And how to get over your ex? So I have
Tice with me and she is a personal development trainer teacher.
(01:09):
She is very educated on attachment styles and I wanted
to just pick your brain a little bit. But before
we get into that, I would love to know what
drew you to focus on attachment theory in your work.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
So for me, for sure, I am in this space
and field as a whole is because I grew up
with a really dysfunctional family and so I was a fearful,
avoidant attachment style. So I basically went through a lot
of ups and downs, a lot of chaos in childhood,
a lot of like my parents are always fighting and arguing,
(01:45):
and so I grew up being you know, wanting love
and connection and relationships of being really afraid of it.
So I was the attachment style that would constantly go
through these dynamics of getting really close but then kind
of sabotaging my relationships when people got too close to me.
I went through that over and over again through my
whole early adolescence, and I definitely just hit a breaking
point of like, what's going on? Why do I want
(02:08):
care and want love but find myself actively trying to
push people away as soon as they really do get
too close?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And why do I.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Feel like relationships are so hard and it's so heavy
to be in a relationship and so difficult. And so
I sought to really understand and explore what my own
experience was. And I was a psychology undergrad at the time.
I was like in first or second year university, and
I actually had somebody say to me. They were like, oh,
your conscious mind can't outwill or overpower your subconscious mind.
(02:37):
And to me, this was so mind blowing because I
was like, wait, what do you mean? And I went
on to find that your conscious mind is responsible for
roughly three to five percent of all of your beliefs, thoughts, emotions,
and actions, and your subconscious is ninety five to ninety
seven percent. So like all those times that I was
growing up being like, I don't want to be so
critical or harsh with my words when I'm triggered, I
(02:59):
don't want to push people away or cancel things at
the last minute because I'm sabotage in closeness and intimacy.
And yet I would keep repeating the pattern. The reason
we do that is because we can consciously intend something.
But if we have these programs, if we have this
conditioning that's just trying to protect us, we can just
go right back down the same rabbit hole of those
same patterns and themes, even though we quote unquote know better. Well, yeah,
(03:23):
you know better because your conscious mind knows better. But
until you actually habituate your behaviors at the subconscious level,
you'll keep repeating the same pattern. So a big part
of the work I ended up doing was in this
space of how do we actually change the patterns, not
just understand them.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yes, Okay, so how do we change the patterns? And like,
obviously we'll get into the specifics of the different attachment styles,
but since we're talking about the development and the potential
to change these patternings in a subconscious way, how does
one achieve that?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah, it's such a great topic. There's a few core
things that we can talk about. So the first thing
is I want people to understand how that works, how
that functions. So if you've ever had the experience of
like when you first learn to drive a car, do
you remember when you first learn to drive and it's
like really stressful. I don't know if you've helt stress,
but I know I did. And you're like turn the
steering wheel, oh my gosh, like check your rear, your mirror,
(04:13):
look over your shoulder, like put on your signal, and
you're trying to remember to do all these things at
once and it's like exhausting and it takes a lot
of your energy. Well that's because you're consciously thinking about everything.
It takes more effort for a lot of those types
of situations. Or maybe you go into like a new
job or a new career and you have that initial
learning curve for a few months because you have to
consciously remember everything. But over time, through repetition and emotion
(04:38):
and experiences, we suddenly get into a place where like
you're driving your car and you're listening to a podcast,
or you're playing the radio, or because you've habituated it.
So through repetition and emotion, we actually fire and wire
neural pathways. And when we do things repeatedly enough, especially
when there's like emotion and imagery intact, that's where we
(04:59):
can really rewire or any patterns of behavior, or even
any painful or scary ideas we have about ourselves or relationships.
So for me, I was a fearful avoidant. I was
afraid of being abandoned in relationships because fearful wouldn't have
this like anxious side where they want closeness. But I
was also really afraid of being betrayed or trapped. And
(05:19):
I assumed that all of the above would happen because
in my own childhood I saw a lot of that
between my own parents. So the repetition and emotion fires
and wires these neural networks. These ideas like okay, relationships
are about betrayal and abandonment, You're going to get trapped
in the wrong one, and as an adult, I would
constantly assume that. But when we want to change those things,
(05:41):
our conscious mind can be like, Okay, look, just because
that was my parents and their experience and what I fear,
it doesn't mean that's all people. Doesn't mean that's everybody's experience.
So I can understand that. But what I actually had
to do was leverage repetition and emotion to change the
way that I saw relationships. For example, I had to
(06:01):
actually look for instead of going through dynamics of feeling like, Okay,
I'm going to be abandoned, I actually had to be like, wait,
hold on a second, why am I worthy of connection?
What's some evidence of how I'm worthy of connection? And
when of people actually stayed And so there's a tool
called auto suggestion where we can start by looking at
these big core fears we have in relationships and they're opposite.
(06:24):
So I'll be abandoned, you know, I'll stay connected. I'm
worthy of connection, and then we can look for times
where people actually did show up and times where people
really did follow through. And what we do here is
when we pull out experiences of this every experience or
memory we have is a container for emotions and images,
Like if you think of your favorite childhood memory, you
(06:46):
might think, oh, yeah, like I was playing on the
playground and I was with my friends, and you might
see the images of the slide and smile when you
tell the story because the emotion is intact. So when
we can leverage that those memories that when people did
come out did far did show up for us, then
what we do is we're actually firing and wiring repetition
emotion and images for our own self to support the
(07:08):
new idea that we have. And then research shows that
if we keep that for twenty one days, so if
we like, let's say we have the core wound, I'll
be abandoned. What's the opposite, I'll be connected. What are
ten times that people did actually show up and connect
to me and how I saw I was worthy of connection?
And then if I record that's the more like my
phone and listen back for twenty one days. Research into
(07:29):
neuroplasticity shows it takes about twenty one days to solidify
these neural networks to be strong enough that we're like,
oh wait, this actually sticks. I actually do feel worthy
of connection. I do see how people will show up
for me and I start to trust it. But until
we do that work and really get the emotion and images,
then we may be like, oh, I have an abandonment
wound or I have a fear, but.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
We don't actually see the needle move on those things. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So I took your quiz. It was to test your
attachment style, and I took it answering the questions as
I am now, and it came back as secure attachment style.
And I was like, Okay, that's interesting, but like I've
done a lot of work on myself, and so I
was like, I want to do the quiz again, but
(08:14):
put myself in the position that I was at a
year ago and a relationship that I wish was different
in the type of mindset where I'm putting somebody on
a pedestal. So I answered your questions from that mindset
and it came back as an anxious, preoccupied attachment style,
(08:37):
which is probably the opposite of your fearful avoidant attachment style.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, there's so there's four attachment styles in total, and
one is securely attached, which is like you know, they
report having the longest lasting relationships and actually being satisfied
in the relationships, because I feel like you can have
a long lasting relationship, but if you're miserable, it's not
that successful per se. So that's our of secure are
anxious attachment style exactly like you said. They put people
(09:03):
on pedestals. They people please, They will self abandon all
the time to please others. They struggle sometimes to feel
like they have a true sense of self because so
much of their sense of self feels like it's based
on other people and how other people think and feel
about them, rather than like, what are my needs? What
do I want to do in the world, what's meaningful
to me? And they tend to lack that attonement. The
opposite of that is actually the dismissive avoidant, who is
(09:28):
very slow to warm up, kind of stand offish. They
keep people at arm's length. They really fear commitment, they
won't really bond too closely. The fearful avoidant, which is
what I was, sort of is like the hot and
cold partner in relationships. They're kind of a blend between
the two, and they're generally somebody who really wants love
and wants connection and actually has an anxious side to
their attachment style. So it can very much relate to
(09:49):
like what you feel when you were anxiously attached, having
had that side to my attachment style, but then when
love gets too close or too real, that's where the
sabotage happens. So then they also have this avoidance side.
So you basically have that like that anxious side and
the avoidant side, and you're constantly just oscillating between the
two extremes, and it's exhausting.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
It's not a fun way to feel.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
But all of the insecure attachment styles that can be
really taxing to feel like that. And I think one
of the biggest things that stands out to me and
why I think attachment theory work is so meaningful, is
like if you imagine, for example, you're trying to sit
down and you're gonna play a board game, and you
go into the board game and you think that you
have the rules for Scrabble, and I go into the
(10:32):
board game and I think we have the rules for Monopoly,
then no matter what happens, like how much fun we
try to have or how will we try to connect,
we're both just going to have like friction and confusion
because we have different rules for how the board game
works and what I like to think of is our
attachment style is really our subconscious set of rules for
how we're supposed to give and receive love. And so
(10:52):
when people have different attachment styles, they pair up together.
But one person thinks love is about distance and not
getting too close and moving really slowly, and another person thinks, like,
if you were anxiously attached in the past, you may
have thought at the time, like move really quickly and
people please each other, and You're going to meet all
of my needs and I'm going to meet all of yours.
We're never going to really meet any of our own
(11:13):
and we're just always supposed to be there and sue
each other. And somebody else might be like, no, no, no,
We're only supposed to sue ourselves, and so there can
just be all of this confusion when we don't realize
that we.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Have different attachment styles.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Okay, I have a question for you, because I've had
another psychotherapist on before who was specialized in dating, and
she was talking about attachment styles and she said basically
like at this day and age, I just turned thirty,
and she was like, the people that are securely attached
(11:54):
probably marry their high school sweetheart and they're in long
term relationship and they find ways to make it work.
And the only people It's kind of a generalization, but
she basically said, the only people who are available on
the market would be people who have been typically either
avoidant or anxious, and that's probably why they haven't had
(12:17):
a relationship work out thus far. Is that true? What's
your perspective on that? So?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I think kurbews like maybe a little extreme, but I
so the traditional research, like all the research into attachment theory,
shows that roughly fifty percent of the population is securely attached,
and that number is traditionally like on the decline. So
the other fifty percent is a combination of majority anxious
and dismissive avoidant, and then minority of that is fearful avoidant.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Now what's interesting is that.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yes, securely attached people, they have better coping mechanisms to
make relationships work. So me having done the work to
also become securely attached, and I've been with my my
husband now for almost ten years. You know, one of
the things that I look back at when I was
fearful avoidant is I had no idea how to solve
an argument. I would just get angry. I would shut down.
(13:05):
I would never communicate. I didn't know how to share
my feelings or my needs. I didn't even know what
that meant, and I definitely didn't want to be vulnerable
enough to do so, you know, I would see the
series of failed arguments, there's no resolutions, shove it under
the rug, get resentful, and eventually my resentment tank would
build enough where I was like, I don't want to
be in this relationship. And you know, you can see
that those patterns of behavior that each of the different
(13:26):
attachment styles has just miss avoids, often won't even share
that they have feelings about a situation or argument. Anxious
attachment cells will people please their way through arguments and
never actually feel seen and heard and loved and connected
to because their opinions aren't getting across and their viewpoints
aren't being considered. And so everybody has their own patterns
who are insecurely attached. Whereas if you're securely attached, you're
(13:48):
more likely to be able to make a relationship work.
So you have that fifty percent, then that fifty percent
is going to move into a space where of that
fifty percent, around thirty years of age, the vast majority
of that fifty percent is in a committed relationship at
that point around those age ranges, give or take a
few years, and so what you'll end up seeing is
(14:08):
now the amount of people on the market who are
securely attachedment available for a secure relationship, it's much less.
But the silver lining of this is, like you just
said you've done the work to become securely attached. You've
been doing intensive work for the last year, and like
that's something that's also trending more in the world. People
are doing the work. And I'm a big believer that
if you just grew up in a secure household and
(14:30):
you just have a secure attachment style, I mean, that's
beautiful and that's wonderful, but I think it's even more
meaningful to be earned secure because you have the resilience,
You have the depth of what it's like to go
through challenges in relationships, and you have the deeper emotional
awareness for how to solve those things and how to
really move beyond them, and so it better prepares you
(14:51):
to be a better version of yourself for future relationships
to come.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, that's so true. Do you feel like since you've
identified as the ye, fearful avoidant attachment style. Do you
feel like you've been like disconnected with your emotions and
it was like harder for you to feel your emotions.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
And if you see somebody who's like, I don't know
what I feel, they may be a dismissive avoidant attachment style.
There could be more to it, and of course that
can be situational. But if they have this chronic like
if you're trying to spot different attachment styles early on
in fading, if somebody is like, I don't really feel
my emotions, if you can tell they're really slow moving,
if they have a history of like being single for
long long periods of.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Time or never really being in.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
More serious committed relationships, if they fear commitment and have
a reputation but not really ever settling down, like those
would be things that that's probably a dismissive aboidant and
that's the real like avoidant attachment style, fearful avoidance. I
would say, we feel too much like when I was
fearful avoidant, I felt all my emotions more in extremes.
(15:52):
But if I've looked at it with like a magnifying glass,
what's actually happening is I'm repressing my emotions for long enough,
so I'm actually people pleasing, similar to the anxious attachment style,
repressing my own feelings and needs. But then I hit
this like critical threshold where now I'm like, ah, my
own feelings and needs do matter. And then I'm experiencing
resentment for the people around me because I think that
(16:12):
they didn't include my feelings and emotions, and now I
make it sharper with my words or a little more
volatile in relationships and things like that. So it's almost
like fearful avoidance go through these deep repressions and then
they turn around and they get really frustrated and over express.
Anxious attachment styles will be the ones that they just
keep people pleasing a long way through really to their
(16:35):
own detriment a lot of the time.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
And if you're.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Trying to spot somebody who's a fearful avoidant, what you'll
see is they're generally really present, they're really giving their
they tend to be really charming, They really they're very
generous people. They'll go above and beyond for people, and
they'll do this and they'll make people feel really seen
and known. They're really good about connecting to other people
and making them feel special and good. But then when
(16:59):
you ask them about themselves or try to get them
to open up, they won't really be vulnerable about themselves,
and so people will often be drawn to them and
they sort of create these one way relationships where they
let people rely on them and be there for them.
But then when it comes to that person actually letting
somebody in truly informing a deeper bond, a lot of
(17:20):
the time when things get more serious, they suddenly get
commitment fearing or suddenly sabotage things a little bit later.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Down the line.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Interesting, So how could you check in with that person?
Do you recommend checking in with their emotions often? And like,
how do you phrase that in a way that's not
strange that is the case.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, it's a really good question. One of the biggest
things is that it's great to express emotions. But one
of the easiest things for fearful avoidance and dismissive avoidance
is they do better when they learn to express their needs,
so and need sort of allows them to then get
into a certain space of comfort with their emotions. What
I was fearful avoidant, here's what I would do all
(18:03):
the time. I would never share when something hurt me.
I would feel really hurt, and I'd be like, I
can't share about that. That's too vulnerable. So let's say,
for example, that somebody didn't text me back enough. I
wouldn't be like texting them more. I wouldn't be like, oh,
I want you to text me more. I would be like, oh,
you're not going to text me. Okay, I'm just gonna
shut down. I don't need you, and I would pull
(18:24):
back and I would hold back. So I would be hurt,
but it would never show it. And then what would
happen is over time, I could only go so long
without actually you know, because I would feel a lot
and feel those those more intense emotions differently from a
dismissible avoidant, for example. So I'd feel these emotions and
then I would get like, you know, pick an argument
or get upset about something so unrelated.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
So it would be like, oh, the.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Gas you didn't refill the gas tank enough, and I
get mad about that. And I would be too angry
about that, because what I was actually doing was projecting
and displacing other emotion and other pain about something unrelated
that I didn't know how to talk about because I
didn't feel like it was safe to be vulnerable. And
so when you then go to a fear full one
and you're like, tell me all your feelings, they may
be like, WHOA, I already don't want to be vulnerable.
(19:08):
You're asking me to be way too vulnerable. But if
instead you tell them, hey, you know, what do you
need in this situation or what upsets you, what tends
to trigger you in arguments or in relationships, and you
start to learn their triggers and their pain points, and
then when you think that those things may be active,
you ask them like, hey, did this upset you? And
if so, that's normal, that's okay, and you start to
(19:30):
sort of like move in the direction of talking about
what do you need in these situations when you feel triggered?
What do you need when you feel you know, let's
say it's about me not being texted. If somebody came
along and they were like, hey, I noticed I didn't
text you earlier and you had mentioned before that was
a thing that can trigger you in relationships, just so
you know I really care about you and is there
(19:51):
anything you need? You know, if that conversation is there
way you can start talking about needs. Meeting needs is
what it resolves comfortable feelings.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
So when somebody.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Meets the need after they didn't text you to validate
you or reassure you, they met the need for validation
or reassurance, which made you not feel so insecure.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Anymore or triggered anymore.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
So talking about needs first and making that kind of
a normalizing in relationships where we talk about what makes
us feel loved and connected and seen and heard, and
having those discussions that empowers us to then be able
to understand each other better and be more mindful about
those things, especially if somebody has a different attachment style
(20:33):
from ourselves.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And one of the things that I've learned through working
on myself is that you can't change somebody else, and so,
like I'm dating, to date that person as they are
and not change them. The secure attachment style is one
form of an attachment and style. But does that necessarily
mean that anyone else who isn't a secure attachment style
(21:06):
shouldn't be somebody that you date.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
So to your point, like anxious attachment styles, they are
just known for being the fixers. They just want to
heal everybody and be there for them and solve the
problems for them and just give them benefit of the
doubt over and over again. And there's like this beauty
in that, but it's it really comes from a space
of self abandonment. In all honesty, it comes from like, Okay,
my feelings and needs don't matter, and so we should
(21:32):
absolutely be dating when people show us who they are now,
because you know, it's like, we don't want to date
people's potential because often their potentials are the projected potential,
but we think they may be in the future, and
it can just.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Get really hairy.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
But to your point, there's a lot of people who
you know, if you're looking and you're like, wow, I'm
meeting people, but I really like somebody, or I'm really
interested in somebody, but I think they might be a
fearful avoidant or dismissible avoidant, or they might still be
anxiously attached to That mean that like, oh my gosh,
there's no hope.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Does that mean that.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
We can ever move the needle on those things? And
the real truth about this is that attachment styles do change.
They can change, They are changeable. I see it all
the time every day. But when I was running my
client practice. So I worked in client practice for about
ten years. I always the very first session that people
would come in. I didn't care what their attachment style was.
(22:24):
I didn't care how much trauma they had. I cared
because I worked with couples most exclusively. I cared are
both people willing to do the work. And if both
people are willing to do the work, I was like, okay,
green lights, green flags all around, like this is great.
If one person was willing to do the work and
the other person was resistant, I was like, okay, I'm
going to probably quite quickly try to convince the other
(22:46):
person this may not be the relationship they want to
stay in, because that's really the game changer is. You know,
somebody can have an insecure attachment style, but are they
working on communicating their needs. You know, there's things that
we do to actually heal and become securely attached, and
those things are like learning to recondition our relationship fears,
this belief that you're always going to be abandoned or
(23:06):
always going to be betrayed, or always going to be trapped.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Like we have to work through those things and you
can recondition.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Those things are you learning what your needs are and
are you actually able to meet your own needs? Because
the relationship to ourselves is the most important relationship we'll
ever have, and we have to be able to understand
who we are and what we need and then meet
those needs. And then we can go communicate those needs
to other people and have them meet them as well.
And so we have to do that work, and we
(23:33):
have to learn to have healthy boundaries. And so if
we can do those things where we're meeting our needs,
we're communicating, we have healthy boundaries, we're working through our
old fears and relationships. Anybody can become securely attached, but
if one person doing it and the other isn't, that's
what I would be vetting for. In dating, I would
be vetting for are they in therapy or counseling or
doing some sort of program or doing the work if
(23:54):
they're insecurely attached. And I would also suggest that people
set a deadline. So I don't know if you've ever
had an experience where you were really interested in somebody
and maybe you were like new to dating them, and
all of a sudden you're like, wait, I'm seeing these
unhealthy patterns And part of you is like I should
pull back, but then you kind of just you're almost
(24:15):
like an autopilot in a way, and you just kind
of keep going and going. And in those types of
experiences that I feel like so many people can probably
relate to, it's because you didn't. You were an intentional
instead a deadline like, hey, I see some unhealthy patterns.
I'm going to do everything I can for the next
two months to see if we can make this work.
And if I don't see their behaviors change or the
(24:35):
needle move from their end at the end of two months,
I have to honor my deadline. I have to say,
you know what, then this is who they are and
I have to move in a different direction.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
But what we don't want to do is.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
The opposite, which is like, Okay, I see a red flag,
I'm just going to run the other direction all the
time because sometimes we don't get to work through things
or have those conversations that can grow the connection or relationships.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Does that make.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Sense, Yeah, it makes total sense for sure.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Be the big piece with dating is like vet somebody
take the time to know when you're dating too, what
you are looking for, Like, have you ever thought just
on your on your own terms. Have you ever taken
the time to sit down and go like, what are
the traits I'm looking for? What are my standards in relationships?
What are my non negotiables? Have you ever done any
of that sort of backwork?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah? I have? Yeah? Good.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah, So that's huge, Like you said, your thirties, So
that's so important to be really intentional and then to
also be able to like dig into once you have
those intentions. That's only half of the equation. It's also
now am I vetting for those things? Am I actively?
I often say to people who are like, you know,
in the dating space right now, don't sit down on
(25:40):
your first date and have like a job interview with somebody.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And like, here's all my standards and non negotiables.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
But if you can, you know, start off the dating
process by going, Okay, I'm gonna get my really clear things.
Like for example, if I were dating now, I would
be like, I need to be in a relationship with
somebody who's willing to resolve conflict and wants to talk
things out because I used to not do that and
it was really painful, and that's what I want going forward.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
If that were the case.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
So then what I would do is I would ask
one meaningful question about my standards or non negotiables per day.
So I'd go on the date, I'd be present and
have fun. But you know, in the first couple months
of getting to know somebody, I would you know, I
might bring up the question one day at dinner. I'd
be like, oh, you know, are you somebody who finds
yourself working through things if you're in a conflict, or
(26:25):
do you tend to avoid them? And that way, I'm
getting the clear picture of who that person is when
I'm dating and I'm batting them every step of the
way to see is this person actually a good fit
for what I'm looking for and vice versa.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I love that so much. That's so good. And what
is the timeframe that you recommend for people to be
kind of vetting this out.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That's a really great question.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
So there's actually six stages of relationships, and what's interesting
is that people and relationships.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Look different at each of the stages.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
So I remember when I was working in private practice
for a while, I would have people come in to
me sometimes and they would be like on their first session,
and they would tice, you know, I married my wife.
I got engaged to her after six months. We got
married at one year, and I'm starting to get nervous.
She conned me because after we got married she turned
into a totally different person.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
She's like a monster now.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Or I would see, you know, another a wife say
that's it, or whoever.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Spouses would say this about each other, and the one
common theme is that this would happen right around the
year and a half to tu mark of being in
a relationship. And there's a reason for this. We start
the dating stage. The dating stage is a vetting stage.
It generally should last about two to four months of
truly vetting before we make like a commitment into something
(27:37):
more serious because we're.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Doing our due diligence.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
We're talking about needs, we're seeing if somebody has our
non negotiables, and we're being clear about who we're committing with.
Once we move out of the dating stage, we move
into the honeymoon stage, and it's characterized by, hey, we
made an actual commitment to each other. And the honeymoon
stage is like rose colored glasses, like, you know, we
see the best traits in somebody were kind of filtering out,
you know, any that's less than perfect about them, and
(28:02):
it's a fun stage. It's a beautiful stage. And then
once we get comfortable enough and enough time has gone on,
we start to lower the mask. We're like, Okay, I
don't have to be on my best behavior all the time.
And when we do that, that's when, all of a sudden,
we move into the power struggle stage. Power struggle is
statistically where most people break up, and it's statistically the
(28:25):
hardest stage. More fighting ensues, there's a lot more ups
and downs. But you know what's really beautiful about it
is that it's the stage that we get the opportunity
to move towards more unconditionally based love. If we're just
in the dating and honeymoon stage, we're showing ourselves with conditions.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
We're always on.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Our best behavior, and you know, showing up as perfectly
as we can. Well, you're not sharing your true fears
or your true needs. You haven't had to work through
many arguments yet, and that can actually strengthen you. And
so the power struggle stage is like a crisis, but
it's also an opportunity. And if we can do the
work in that stage to be more open, to be
more vulnerable to talk about our needs to really be
(29:06):
mindful of each other's fears or triggers and wounds and
work through strategies to move beyond those things. Then we
move into the stability, commitment and eventually bliss stage. But
in the bliss stage, it's like the honeymoon stage, but
you truly deeply know somebody and so yeah, love, So
there's this the work to be done, you know, And
(29:28):
sometimes we think that in the power struggle stage. I
don't know if you've ever experienced something like this or
people you know have experienced something like this, but like
there can be a dynamic of you you're in the
power struggling and you're like everything's changing, it's falling apart.
It's so hard. But sometimes it's because you know the relationship.
It's almost like the universe is showing you the things
you have to move through, the different conversations you have
to have the things that need to change, and if
(29:49):
you can do that, it really strengthens you for the future.
But we have to take those lessons and actually use them.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yes, I love that so much. And it is a process.
It seems like it is like a long game type
of process because you can't help yourself. You do get
those rose colored lenses and you do, like really see
the best in somebody else. And when someone is meeting
your non negotiables and things are working out, it's like great,
(30:17):
Like I found my person. But it does take time,
and I'm sure eventually you get to that phase where
you start really having those problems. But if you are
someone who is willing to work through the problems and
be a good communicator and like really commit to the
other person, that is when that true deep love starts
(30:42):
to form because you truly do know each other. And
that's probably even more rewarding.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Absolutely, that's so beautifully summarized. That's exactly the case. And
it's not easy work, but it's so meaningful. And then
you naturally know, like what somebody's sensitivities are and you
can be mindful of them. You don't have to talk
everything out forever.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
You do it.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Initially, adapt to it, and then those things naturally flow
in a healthy way.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, So you have a personal development school. What has
been the most rewarding part of that journey helping other
people through your school.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Seeing people change. So I started off in private practice,
and originally, like sort of specialize in a sense in hypnotherapy,
and I would come in and I would hypnotize people
and help them have these kind of like rapid breakthroughs,
and then people keep coming back and coming back and
coming back. And then I would see over the years
that people would, you know, do really well for a
(31:40):
few years, and then a few years later they'd come
back and again. And I sort of had this idea
that like, when you truly empower somebody, when you truly
support them, it's almost like the analogy like give a
man of fish instead of teaching them give instead of
teaching them man to fish. I felt like hypnosis was
like do it for them instead of like teach somebody
the user manual of how their owned mind works, so
(32:02):
that forever, once they're empowered and learn those basics, they
can face any problems or difficulties that come to them.
And of course you can always go and get some
more support. But like, if you know how to regulate
yourself and work through grief or breakups or trauma or
anything like that, well, now your position to be able
to have this deep sense of self trust that I
can handle other whatever storms come in my path on
(32:24):
the journey of life. And so a lot of what
we did is really create course, material and support that
empowers people to it's almost like teach them manefish they
can actually do things themselves. And so one of the
most rewarding parts of PDS, instead of being in private practice,
was like I actually see people changing and coming into
our support groups and sharing stories of like what they
(32:45):
changed and what they did. And we had this one girl.
She always comes to mind as like a success story.
She's like this amazing student. She came in, she used
a fake name and eventually she changed her name and
she was like, hey, this is my real name. I
was using this fake and because I, you know, I
was uncomfortable with vulnerability, and she did so much work
(33:05):
from going through the courses and materials that she actually
healed so much. She would come into every webinar on
camera share talk about things. She was so vulnerable. And
then she actually went back to school to be a
therapist herself, and she's now a therapist seeing clients, and
so it's so beautiful to see some of those changes
and just really, you know, see people understandings so deeply
themselves that they don't need me. If that makes sense
(33:28):
they actually have that empowerment personally.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Oh that's so beautiful. I had chills when you said,
teach a man how to fish, don't give him a fish,
because it's so true. Like I dedicated three months of
my life to a recovery center. Their whole philosophy was
giving you the tools that you need to be able
to be in your recovery outside of the program. Yeah,
(33:53):
I had chills when you said, teach a man how
to fish and don't give him a fish, because it's
so true. Like, if you you are trying to fix
someone for them, it's basically enabling their behavior in a weird,
roundabout way that doesn't make sense to the person who's
like just trying to help. But if you take a
step back and really recognize that pattern, then you start
(34:15):
to realize that it needs to be something much deeper
where they can help themselves.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Absolutely, that's so cool to hear that you, like did
intensive work for three months, because I feel like when
we're really in it too, it just it really helps
so much more to have a big focus there when
we're learning about relationships or attachment cells or any of it.
And it reminds me of this idea. I remember when
I had sort of my own patterns of like you know,
being codependent or being you know, very anxious in relationships
(34:44):
because you have that part as if you're full avoidant.
And I remember like always wanting to like fix or
save people and things like that. And I sat down
one day and I realized, like, I'm just really afraid
to see people in pain, because when they're in pain,
I can't handle it. Like I'm like, oh my gosh,
I feel your pain, and you better fix your pain
so I don't have to feel this. And and you know,
(35:05):
part of me was being in mesh and sort of
code pendant in that way, and I was trying to
change somebody else or control how they felt as a
means to control how I felt. And what I realized
this one day I sat down and I looked at
like some of the hardest experiences of my life, and
I sat down, like, what are the three or four
like hardest things I ever went through? And I sat
down and I just got really present, and I was like,
(35:27):
as hard as it is to ask myself this question.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
How did these really hard times serve me? What did
I learn? How did I grow?
Speaker 3 (35:35):
What was I forced to let go of that was
no longer serving me at the time, and I sat
with like really sat in those questions for a while,
and after some time I realized, like, some of the
hardest things I went through actually were some of the
most powerful learning experiences for me, and things that changed
me so deeply in a way that like actually did
(35:57):
all of this amazing stuff for me in the future
years to come. And pain is so hard and it's
so uncomfortable, but it's a powerful teacher. And sometimes when
we go through those really difficult experiences or painful things,
we're like, we think, oh, no, it's so bad, and
I don't want to see anybody else in pain because
it's such an awful thing. But sometimes we're actually robbing
them of those lessons and experiences at the same time.
(36:17):
And so allowing people to really sit in that pain
or have space to process things, as much as we
want to fix or want to save, can actually be
meaningful for not just us, but for the person going
through that experience itself.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
I love that introspection. I hope you enjoyed listening to
my conversation with doctor Tyise Gibson. She gave me so
much good information that we decided to make a two
part episode, so stay tuned for part two. Thank you
so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue. Follow us
(36:52):
on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content at Rachel
Goes Rogue Podcast
This is Rachel gos Rogue. Welcome to another episode of
Rachel Goes Rogue with your host, Rachel Savannah Levis. Today
I'm joined by personal development coach, author, and co founder
of the Personal Development School, doctor Tyis Gibson. Doctor Tys
(00:26):
is an expert on attachment theory, emotional healing, and transforming relationships.
If you've ever wondered how your upbringing or past experiences
affect your relationships, or if you're looking for tools to
better understand yourself and your partners, this episode is for you.
(00:47):
In this episode, we talk a lot about attachment styles,
is it possible to change into a secure attachment style?
And how to get over your ex? So I have
Tice with me and she is a personal development trainer teacher.
(01:09):
She is very educated on attachment styles and I wanted
to just pick your brain a little bit. But before
we get into that, I would love to know what
drew you to focus on attachment theory in your work.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
So for me, for sure, I am in this space
and field as a whole is because I grew up
with a really dysfunctional family and so I was a fearful,
avoidant attachment style. So I basically went through a lot
of ups and downs, a lot of chaos in childhood,
a lot of like my parents are always fighting and arguing,
(01:45):
and so I grew up being you know, wanting love
and connection and relationships of being really afraid of it.
So I was the attachment style that would constantly go
through these dynamics of getting really close but then kind
of sabotaging my relationships when people got too close to me.
I went through that over and over again through my
whole early adolescence, and I definitely just hit a breaking
point of like, what's going on? Why do I want
(02:08):
care and want love but find myself actively trying to
push people away as soon as they really do get
too close?
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And why do I.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Feel like relationships are so hard and it's so heavy
to be in a relationship and so difficult. And so
I sought to really understand and explore what my own
experience was. And I was a psychology undergrad at the time.
I was like in first or second year university, and
I actually had somebody say to me. They were like, oh,
your conscious mind can't outwill or overpower your subconscious mind.
(02:37):
And to me, this was so mind blowing because I
was like, wait, what do you mean? And I went
on to find that your conscious mind is responsible for
roughly three to five percent of all of your beliefs, thoughts, emotions,
and actions, and your subconscious is ninety five to ninety
seven percent. So like all those times that I was
growing up being like, I don't want to be so
critical or harsh with my words when I'm triggered, I
(02:59):
don't want to push people away or cancel things at
the last minute because I'm sabotage in closeness and intimacy.
And yet I would keep repeating the pattern. The reason
we do that is because we can consciously intend something.
But if we have these programs, if we have this
conditioning that's just trying to protect us, we can just
go right back down the same rabbit hole of those
same patterns and themes, even though we quote unquote know better. Well, yeah,
(03:23):
you know better because your conscious mind knows better. But
until you actually habituate your behaviors at the subconscious level,
you'll keep repeating the same pattern. So a big part
of the work I ended up doing was in this
space of how do we actually change the patterns, not
just understand them.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Yes, Okay, so how do we change the patterns? And like,
obviously we'll get into the specifics of the different attachment styles,
but since we're talking about the development and the potential
to change these patternings in a subconscious way, how does
one achieve that?
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Yeah, it's such a great topic. There's a few core
things that we can talk about. So the first thing
is I want people to understand how that works, how
that functions. So if you've ever had the experience of
like when you first learn to drive a car, do
you remember when you first learn to drive and it's
like really stressful. I don't know if you've helt stress,
but I know I did. And you're like turn the
steering wheel, oh my gosh, like check your rear, your mirror,
(04:13):
look over your shoulder, like put on your signal, and
you're trying to remember to do all these things at
once and it's like exhausting and it takes a lot
of your energy. Well that's because you're consciously thinking about everything.
It takes more effort for a lot of those types
of situations. Or maybe you go into like a new
job or a new career and you have that initial
learning curve for a few months because you have to
consciously remember everything. But over time, through repetition and emotion
(04:38):
and experiences, we suddenly get into a place where like
you're driving your car and you're listening to a podcast,
or you're playing the radio, or because you've habituated it.
So through repetition and emotion, we actually fire and wire
neural pathways. And when we do things repeatedly enough, especially
when there's like emotion and imagery intact, that's where we
(04:59):
can really rewire or any patterns of behavior, or even
any painful or scary ideas we have about ourselves or relationships.
So for me, I was a fearful avoidant. I was
afraid of being abandoned in relationships because fearful wouldn't have
this like anxious side where they want closeness. But I
was also really afraid of being betrayed or trapped. And
(05:19):
I assumed that all of the above would happen because
in my own childhood I saw a lot of that
between my own parents. So the repetition and emotion fires
and wires these neural networks. These ideas like okay, relationships
are about betrayal and abandonment, You're going to get trapped
in the wrong one, and as an adult, I would
constantly assume that. But when we want to change those things,
(05:41):
our conscious mind can be like, Okay, look, just because
that was my parents and their experience and what I fear,
it doesn't mean that's all people. Doesn't mean that's everybody's experience.
So I can understand that. But what I actually had
to do was leverage repetition and emotion to change the
way that I saw relationships. For example, I had to
(06:01):
actually look for instead of going through dynamics of feeling like, Okay,
I'm going to be abandoned, I actually had to be like, wait,
hold on a second, why am I worthy of connection?
What's some evidence of how I'm worthy of connection? And
when of people actually stayed And so there's a tool
called auto suggestion where we can start by looking at
these big core fears we have in relationships and they're opposite.
(06:24):
So I'll be abandoned, you know, I'll stay connected. I'm
worthy of connection, and then we can look for times
where people actually did show up and times where people
really did follow through. And what we do here is
when we pull out experiences of this every experience or
memory we have is a container for emotions and images,
Like if you think of your favorite childhood memory, you
(06:46):
might think, oh, yeah, like I was playing on the
playground and I was with my friends, and you might
see the images of the slide and smile when you
tell the story because the emotion is intact. So when
we can leverage that those memories that when people did
come out did far did show up for us, then
what we do is we're actually firing and wiring repetition
emotion and images for our own self to support the
(07:08):
new idea that we have. And then research shows that
if we keep that for twenty one days, so if
we like, let's say we have the core wound, I'll
be abandoned. What's the opposite, I'll be connected. What are
ten times that people did actually show up and connect
to me and how I saw I was worthy of connection?
And then if I record that's the more like my
phone and listen back for twenty one days. Research into
(07:29):
neuroplasticity shows it takes about twenty one days to solidify
these neural networks to be strong enough that we're like,
oh wait, this actually sticks. I actually do feel worthy
of connection. I do see how people will show up
for me and I start to trust it. But until
we do that work and really get the emotion and images,
then we may be like, oh, I have an abandonment
wound or I have a fear, but.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
We don't actually see the needle move on those things. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
So I took your quiz. It was to test your
attachment style, and I took it answering the questions as
I am now, and it came back as secure attachment style.
And I was like, Okay, that's interesting, but like I've
done a lot of work on myself, and so I
was like, I want to do the quiz again, but
(08:14):
put myself in the position that I was at a
year ago and a relationship that I wish was different
in the type of mindset where I'm putting somebody on
a pedestal. So I answered your questions from that mindset
and it came back as an anxious, preoccupied attachment style,
(08:37):
which is probably the opposite of your fearful avoidant attachment style.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, there's so there's four attachment styles in total, and
one is securely attached, which is like you know, they
report having the longest lasting relationships and actually being satisfied
in the relationships, because I feel like you can have
a long lasting relationship, but if you're miserable, it's not
that successful per se. So that's our of secure are
anxious attachment style exactly like you said. They put people
(09:03):
on pedestals. They people please, They will self abandon all
the time to please others. They struggle sometimes to feel
like they have a true sense of self because so
much of their sense of self feels like it's based
on other people and how other people think and feel
about them, rather than like, what are my needs? What
do I want to do in the world, what's meaningful
to me? And they tend to lack that attonement. The
opposite of that is actually the dismissive avoidant, who is
(09:28):
very slow to warm up, kind of stand offish. They
keep people at arm's length. They really fear commitment, they
won't really bond too closely. The fearful avoidant, which is
what I was, sort of is like the hot and
cold partner in relationships. They're kind of a blend between
the two, and they're generally somebody who really wants love
and wants connection and actually has an anxious side to
their attachment style. So it can very much relate to
(09:49):
like what you feel when you were anxiously attached, having
had that side to my attachment style, but then when
love gets too close or too real, that's where the
sabotage happens. So then they also have this avoidance side.
So you basically have that like that anxious side and
the avoidant side, and you're constantly just oscillating between the
two extremes, and it's exhausting.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
It's not a fun way to feel.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
But all of the insecure attachment styles that can be
really taxing to feel like that. And I think one
of the biggest things that stands out to me and
why I think attachment theory work is so meaningful, is
like if you imagine, for example, you're trying to sit
down and you're gonna play a board game, and you
go into the board game and you think that you
have the rules for Scrabble, and I go into the
(10:32):
board game and I think we have the rules for Monopoly,
then no matter what happens, like how much fun we
try to have or how will we try to connect,
we're both just going to have like friction and confusion
because we have different rules for how the board game
works and what I like to think of is our
attachment style is really our subconscious set of rules for
how we're supposed to give and receive love. And so
(10:52):
when people have different attachment styles, they pair up together.
But one person thinks love is about distance and not
getting too close and moving really slowly, and another person thinks, like,
if you were anxiously attached in the past, you may
have thought at the time, like move really quickly and
people please each other, and You're going to meet all
of my needs and I'm going to meet all of yours.
We're never going to really meet any of our own
(11:13):
and we're just always supposed to be there and sue
each other. And somebody else might be like, no, no, no,
We're only supposed to sue ourselves, and so there can
just be all of this confusion when we don't realize
that we.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Have different attachment styles.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Okay, I have a question for you, because I've had
another psychotherapist on before who was specialized in dating, and
she was talking about attachment styles and she said basically
like at this day and age, I just turned thirty,
and she was like, the people that are securely attached
(11:54):
probably marry their high school sweetheart and they're in long
term relationship and they find ways to make it work.
And the only people It's kind of a generalization, but
she basically said, the only people who are available on
the market would be people who have been typically either
avoidant or anxious, and that's probably why they haven't had
(12:17):
a relationship work out thus far. Is that true? What's
your perspective on that? So?
Speaker 3 (12:23):
I think kurbews like maybe a little extreme, but I
so the traditional research, like all the research into attachment theory,
shows that roughly fifty percent of the population is securely attached,
and that number is traditionally like on the decline. So
the other fifty percent is a combination of majority anxious
and dismissive avoidant, and then minority of that is fearful avoidant.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Now what's interesting is that.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
Yes, securely attached people, they have better coping mechanisms to
make relationships work. So me having done the work to
also become securely attached, and I've been with my my
husband now for almost ten years. You know, one of
the things that I look back at when I was
fearful avoidant is I had no idea how to solve
an argument. I would just get angry. I would shut down.
(13:05):
I would never communicate. I didn't know how to share
my feelings or my needs. I didn't even know what
that meant, and I definitely didn't want to be vulnerable
enough to do so, you know, I would see the
series of failed arguments, there's no resolutions, shove it under
the rug, get resentful, and eventually my resentment tank would
build enough where I was like, I don't want to
be in this relationship. And you know, you can see
that those patterns of behavior that each of the different
(13:26):
attachment styles has just miss avoids, often won't even share
that they have feelings about a situation or argument. Anxious
attachment cells will people please their way through arguments and
never actually feel seen and heard and loved and connected
to because their opinions aren't getting across and their viewpoints
aren't being considered. And so everybody has their own patterns
who are insecurely attached. Whereas if you're securely attached, you're
(13:48):
more likely to be able to make a relationship work.
So you have that fifty percent, then that fifty percent
is going to move into a space where of that
fifty percent, around thirty years of age, the vast majority
of that fifty percent is in a committed relationship at
that point around those age ranges, give or take a
few years, and so what you'll end up seeing is
(14:08):
now the amount of people on the market who are
securely attachedment available for a secure relationship, it's much less.
But the silver lining of this is, like you just
said you've done the work to become securely attached. You've
been doing intensive work for the last year, and like
that's something that's also trending more in the world. People
are doing the work. And I'm a big believer that
if you just grew up in a secure household and
(14:30):
you just have a secure attachment style, I mean, that's
beautiful and that's wonderful, but I think it's even more
meaningful to be earned secure because you have the resilience,
You have the depth of what it's like to go
through challenges in relationships, and you have the deeper emotional
awareness for how to solve those things and how to
really move beyond them, and so it better prepares you
(14:51):
to be a better version of yourself for future relationships
to come.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, that's so true. Do you feel like since you've
identified as the ye, fearful avoidant attachment style. Do you
feel like you've been like disconnected with your emotions and
it was like harder for you to feel your emotions.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
And if you see somebody who's like, I don't know
what I feel, they may be a dismissive avoidant attachment style.
There could be more to it, and of course that
can be situational. But if they have this chronic like
if you're trying to spot different attachment styles early on
in fading, if somebody is like, I don't really feel
my emotions, if you can tell they're really slow moving,
if they have a history of like being single for
long long periods of.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Time or never really being in.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
More serious committed relationships, if they fear commitment and have
a reputation but not really ever settling down, like those
would be things that that's probably a dismissive aboidant and
that's the real like avoidant attachment style, fearful avoidance. I
would say, we feel too much like when I was
fearful avoidant, I felt all my emotions more in extremes.
(15:52):
But if I've looked at it with like a magnifying glass,
what's actually happening is I'm repressing my emotions for long enough,
so I'm actually people pleasing, similar to the anxious attachment style,
repressing my own feelings and needs. But then I hit
this like critical threshold where now I'm like, ah, my
own feelings and needs do matter. And then I'm experiencing
resentment for the people around me because I think that
(16:12):
they didn't include my feelings and emotions, and now I
make it sharper with my words or a little more
volatile in relationships and things like that. So it's almost
like fearful avoidance go through these deep repressions and then
they turn around and they get really frustrated and over express.
Anxious attachment styles will be the ones that they just
keep people pleasing a long way through really to their
(16:35):
own detriment a lot of the time.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
And if you're.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
Trying to spot somebody who's a fearful avoidant, what you'll
see is they're generally really present, they're really giving their
they tend to be really charming, They really they're very
generous people. They'll go above and beyond for people, and
they'll do this and they'll make people feel really seen
and known. They're really good about connecting to other people
and making them feel special and good. But then when
(16:59):
you ask them about themselves or try to get them
to open up, they won't really be vulnerable about themselves,
and so people will often be drawn to them and
they sort of create these one way relationships where they
let people rely on them and be there for them.
But then when it comes to that person actually letting
somebody in truly informing a deeper bond, a lot of
(17:20):
the time when things get more serious, they suddenly get
commitment fearing or suddenly sabotage things a little bit later.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Down the line.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Interesting, So how could you check in with that person?
Do you recommend checking in with their emotions often? And like,
how do you phrase that in a way that's not
strange that is the case.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, it's a really good question. One of the biggest
things is that it's great to express emotions. But one
of the easiest things for fearful avoidance and dismissive avoidance
is they do better when they learn to express their needs,
so and need sort of allows them to then get
into a certain space of comfort with their emotions. What
I was fearful avoidant, here's what I would do all
(18:03):
the time. I would never share when something hurt me.
I would feel really hurt, and I'd be like, I
can't share about that. That's too vulnerable. So let's say,
for example, that somebody didn't text me back enough. I
wouldn't be like texting them more. I wouldn't be like, oh,
I want you to text me more. I would be like, oh,
you're not going to text me. Okay, I'm just gonna
shut down. I don't need you, and I would pull
(18:24):
back and I would hold back. So I would be hurt,
but it would never show it. And then what would
happen is over time, I could only go so long
without actually you know, because I would feel a lot
and feel those those more intense emotions differently from a
dismissible avoidant, for example. So I'd feel these emotions and
then I would get like, you know, pick an argument
or get upset about something so unrelated.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
So it would be like, oh, the.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Gas you didn't refill the gas tank enough, and I
get mad about that. And I would be too angry
about that, because what I was actually doing was projecting
and displacing other emotion and other pain about something unrelated
that I didn't know how to talk about because I
didn't feel like it was safe to be vulnerable. And
so when you then go to a fear full one
and you're like, tell me all your feelings, they may
be like, WHOA, I already don't want to be vulnerable.
(19:08):
You're asking me to be way too vulnerable. But if
instead you tell them, hey, you know, what do you
need in this situation or what upsets you, what tends
to trigger you in arguments or in relationships, and you
start to learn their triggers and their pain points, and
then when you think that those things may be active,
you ask them like, hey, did this upset you? And
if so, that's normal, that's okay, and you start to
(19:30):
sort of like move in the direction of talking about
what do you need in these situations when you feel triggered?
What do you need when you feel you know, let's
say it's about me not being texted. If somebody came
along and they were like, hey, I noticed I didn't
text you earlier and you had mentioned before that was
a thing that can trigger you in relationships, just so
you know I really care about you and is there
(19:51):
anything you need? You know, if that conversation is there
way you can start talking about needs. Meeting needs is
what it resolves comfortable feelings.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
So when somebody.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Meets the need after they didn't text you to validate
you or reassure you, they met the need for validation
or reassurance, which made you not feel so insecure.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Anymore or triggered anymore.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
So talking about needs first and making that kind of
a normalizing in relationships where we talk about what makes
us feel loved and connected and seen and heard, and
having those discussions that empowers us to then be able
to understand each other better and be more mindful about
those things, especially if somebody has a different attachment style
(20:33):
from ourselves.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And one of the things that I've learned through working
on myself is that you can't change somebody else, and so,
like I'm dating, to date that person as they are
and not change them. The secure attachment style is one
form of an attachment and style. But does that necessarily
mean that anyone else who isn't a secure attachment style
(21:06):
shouldn't be somebody that you date.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
So to your point, like anxious attachment styles, they are
just known for being the fixers. They just want to
heal everybody and be there for them and solve the
problems for them and just give them benefit of the
doubt over and over again. And there's like this beauty
in that, but it's it really comes from a space
of self abandonment. In all honesty, it comes from like, Okay,
my feelings and needs don't matter, and so we should
(21:32):
absolutely be dating when people show us who they are now,
because you know, it's like, we don't want to date
people's potential because often their potentials are the projected potential,
but we think they may be in the future, and
it can just.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Get really hairy.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
But to your point, there's a lot of people who
you know, if you're looking and you're like, wow, I'm
meeting people, but I really like somebody, or I'm really
interested in somebody, but I think they might be a
fearful avoidant or dismissible avoidant, or they might still be
anxiously attached to That mean that like, oh my gosh,
there's no hope.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Does that mean that.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
We can ever move the needle on those things? And
the real truth about this is that attachment styles do change.
They can change, They are changeable. I see it all
the time every day. But when I was running my
client practice. So I worked in client practice for about
ten years. I always the very first session that people
would come in. I didn't care what their attachment style was.
(22:24):
I didn't care how much trauma they had. I cared
because I worked with couples most exclusively. I cared are
both people willing to do the work. And if both
people are willing to do the work, I was like, okay,
green lights, green flags all around, like this is great.
If one person was willing to do the work and
the other person was resistant, I was like, okay, I'm
going to probably quite quickly try to convince the other
(22:46):
person this may not be the relationship they want to
stay in, because that's really the game changer is. You know,
somebody can have an insecure attachment style, but are they
working on communicating their needs. You know, there's things that
we do to actually heal and become securely attached, and
those things are like learning to recondition our relationship fears,
this belief that you're always going to be abandoned or
(23:06):
always going to be betrayed, or always going to be trapped.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Like we have to work through those things and you
can recondition.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Those things are you learning what your needs are and
are you actually able to meet your own needs? Because
the relationship to ourselves is the most important relationship we'll
ever have, and we have to be able to understand
who we are and what we need and then meet
those needs. And then we can go communicate those needs
to other people and have them meet them as well.
And so we have to do that work, and we
(23:33):
have to learn to have healthy boundaries. And so if
we can do those things where we're meeting our needs,
we're communicating, we have healthy boundaries, we're working through our
old fears and relationships. Anybody can become securely attached, but
if one person doing it and the other isn't, that's
what I would be vetting for. In dating, I would
be vetting for are they in therapy or counseling or
doing some sort of program or doing the work if
(23:54):
they're insecurely attached. And I would also suggest that people
set a deadline. So I don't know if you've ever
had an experience where you were really interested in somebody
and maybe you were like new to dating them, and
all of a sudden you're like, wait, I'm seeing these
unhealthy patterns And part of you is like I should
pull back, but then you kind of just you're almost
(24:15):
like an autopilot in a way, and you just kind
of keep going and going. And in those types of
experiences that I feel like so many people can probably
relate to, it's because you didn't. You were an intentional
instead a deadline like, hey, I see some unhealthy patterns.
I'm going to do everything I can for the next
two months to see if we can make this work.
And if I don't see their behaviors change or the
(24:35):
needle move from their end at the end of two months,
I have to honor my deadline. I have to say,
you know what, then this is who they are and
I have to move in a different direction.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
But what we don't want to do is.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
The opposite, which is like, Okay, I see a red flag,
I'm just going to run the other direction all the
time because sometimes we don't get to work through things
or have those conversations that can grow the connection or relationships.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Does that make.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Sense, Yeah, it makes total sense for sure.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Be the big piece with dating is like vet somebody
take the time to know when you're dating too, what
you are looking for, Like, have you ever thought just
on your on your own terms. Have you ever taken
the time to sit down and go like, what are
the traits I'm looking for? What are my standards in relationships?
What are my non negotiables? Have you ever done any
of that sort of backwork?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah? I have? Yeah? Good.
Speaker 3 (25:20):
Yeah, So that's huge, Like you said, your thirties, So
that's so important to be really intentional and then to
also be able to like dig into once you have
those intentions. That's only half of the equation. It's also
now am I vetting for those things? Am I actively?
I often say to people who are like, you know,
in the dating space right now, don't sit down on
(25:40):
your first date and have like a job interview with somebody.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And like, here's all my standards and non negotiables.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
But if you can, you know, start off the dating
process by going, Okay, I'm gonna get my really clear things.
Like for example, if I were dating now, I would
be like, I need to be in a relationship with
somebody who's willing to resolve conflict and wants to talk
things out because I used to not do that and
it was really painful, and that's what I want going forward.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
If that were the case.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
So then what I would do is I would ask
one meaningful question about my standards or non negotiables per day.
So I'd go on the date, I'd be present and
have fun. But you know, in the first couple months
of getting to know somebody, I would you know, I
might bring up the question one day at dinner. I'd
be like, oh, you know, are you somebody who finds
yourself working through things if you're in a conflict, or
(26:25):
do you tend to avoid them? And that way, I'm
getting the clear picture of who that person is when
I'm dating and I'm batting them every step of the
way to see is this person actually a good fit
for what I'm looking for and vice versa.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I love that so much. That's so good. And what
is the timeframe that you recommend for people to be
kind of vetting this out.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That's a really great question.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
So there's actually six stages of relationships, and what's interesting
is that people and relationships.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Look different at each of the stages.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
So I remember when I was working in private practice
for a while, I would have people come in to
me sometimes and they would be like on their first session,
and they would tice, you know, I married my wife.
I got engaged to her after six months. We got
married at one year, and I'm starting to get nervous.
She conned me because after we got married she turned
into a totally different person.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
She's like a monster now.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Or I would see, you know, another a wife say
that's it, or whoever.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
Spouses would say this about each other, and the one
common theme is that this would happen right around the
year and a half to tu mark of being in
a relationship. And there's a reason for this. We start
the dating stage. The dating stage is a vetting stage.
It generally should last about two to four months of
truly vetting before we make like a commitment into something
(27:37):
more serious because we're.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Doing our due diligence.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
We're talking about needs, we're seeing if somebody has our
non negotiables, and we're being clear about who we're committing with.
Once we move out of the dating stage, we move
into the honeymoon stage, and it's characterized by, hey, we
made an actual commitment to each other. And the honeymoon
stage is like rose colored glasses, like, you know, we
see the best traits in somebody were kind of filtering out,
you know, any that's less than perfect about them, and
(28:02):
it's a fun stage. It's a beautiful stage. And then
once we get comfortable enough and enough time has gone on,
we start to lower the mask. We're like, Okay, I
don't have to be on my best behavior all the time.
And when we do that, that's when, all of a sudden,
we move into the power struggle stage. Power struggle is
statistically where most people break up, and it's statistically the
(28:25):
hardest stage. More fighting ensues, there's a lot more ups
and downs. But you know what's really beautiful about it
is that it's the stage that we get the opportunity
to move towards more unconditionally based love. If we're just
in the dating and honeymoon stage, we're showing ourselves with conditions.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
We're always on.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Our best behavior, and you know, showing up as perfectly
as we can. Well, you're not sharing your true fears
or your true needs. You haven't had to work through
many arguments yet, and that can actually strengthen you. And
so the power struggle stage is like a crisis, but
it's also an opportunity. And if we can do the
work in that stage to be more open, to be
more vulnerable to talk about our needs to really be
(29:06):
mindful of each other's fears or triggers and wounds and
work through strategies to move beyond those things. Then we
move into the stability, commitment and eventually bliss stage. But
in the bliss stage, it's like the honeymoon stage, but
you truly deeply know somebody and so yeah, love, So
there's this the work to be done, you know, And
(29:28):
sometimes we think that in the power struggle stage. I
don't know if you've ever experienced something like this or
people you know have experienced something like this, but like
there can be a dynamic of you you're in the
power struggling and you're like everything's changing, it's falling apart.
It's so hard. But sometimes it's because you know the relationship.
It's almost like the universe is showing you the things
you have to move through, the different conversations you have
to have the things that need to change, and if
(29:49):
you can do that, it really strengthens you for the future.
But we have to take those lessons and actually use them.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
Yes, I love that so much. And it is a process.
It seems like it is like a long game type
of process because you can't help yourself. You do get
those rose colored lenses and you do, like really see
the best in somebody else. And when someone is meeting
your non negotiables and things are working out, it's like great,
(30:17):
Like I found my person. But it does take time,
and I'm sure eventually you get to that phase where
you start really having those problems. But if you are
someone who is willing to work through the problems and
be a good communicator and like really commit to the
other person, that is when that true deep love starts
(30:42):
to form because you truly do know each other. And
that's probably even more rewarding.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Absolutely, that's so beautifully summarized. That's exactly the case. And
it's not easy work, but it's so meaningful. And then
you naturally know, like what somebody's sensitivities are and you
can be mindful of them. You don't have to talk
everything out forever.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
You do it.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
Initially, adapt to it, and then those things naturally flow
in a healthy way.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, So you have a personal development school. What has
been the most rewarding part of that journey helping other
people through your school.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Seeing people change. So I started off in private practice,
and originally, like sort of specialize in a sense in hypnotherapy,
and I would come in and I would hypnotize people
and help them have these kind of like rapid breakthroughs,
and then people keep coming back and coming back and
coming back. And then I would see over the years
that people would, you know, do really well for a
(31:40):
few years, and then a few years later they'd come
back and again. And I sort of had this idea
that like, when you truly empower somebody, when you truly
support them, it's almost like the analogy like give a
man of fish instead of teaching them give instead of
teaching them man to fish. I felt like hypnosis was
like do it for them instead of like teach somebody
the user manual of how their owned mind works, so
(32:02):
that forever, once they're empowered and learn those basics, they
can face any problems or difficulties that come to them.
And of course you can always go and get some
more support. But like, if you know how to regulate
yourself and work through grief or breakups or trauma or
anything like that, well, now your position to be able
to have this deep sense of self trust that I
can handle other whatever storms come in my path on
(32:24):
the journey of life. And so a lot of what
we did is really create course, material and support that
empowers people to it's almost like teach them manefish they
can actually do things themselves. And so one of the
most rewarding parts of PDS, instead of being in private practice,
was like I actually see people changing and coming into
our support groups and sharing stories of like what they
(32:45):
changed and what they did. And we had this one girl.
She always comes to mind as like a success story.
She's like this amazing student. She came in, she used
a fake name and eventually she changed her name and
she was like, hey, this is my real name. I
was using this fake and because I, you know, I
was uncomfortable with vulnerability, and she did so much work
(33:05):
from going through the courses and materials that she actually
healed so much. She would come into every webinar on
camera share talk about things. She was so vulnerable. And
then she actually went back to school to be a
therapist herself, and she's now a therapist seeing clients, and
so it's so beautiful to see some of those changes
and just really, you know, see people understandings so deeply
themselves that they don't need me. If that makes sense
(33:28):
they actually have that empowerment personally.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Oh that's so beautiful. I had chills when you said,
teach a man how to fish, don't give him a fish,
because it's so true. Like I dedicated three months of
my life to a recovery center. Their whole philosophy was
giving you the tools that you need to be able
to be in your recovery outside of the program. Yeah,
(33:53):
I had chills when you said, teach a man how
to fish and don't give him a fish, because it's
so true. Like, if you you are trying to fix
someone for them, it's basically enabling their behavior in a weird,
roundabout way that doesn't make sense to the person who's
like just trying to help. But if you take a
step back and really recognize that pattern, then you start
(34:15):
to realize that it needs to be something much deeper
where they can help themselves.
Speaker 3 (34:21):
Absolutely, that's so cool to hear that you, like did
intensive work for three months, because I feel like when
we're really in it too, it just it really helps
so much more to have a big focus there when
we're learning about relationships or attachment cells or any of it.
And it reminds me of this idea. I remember when
I had sort of my own patterns of like you know,
being codependent or being you know, very anxious in relationships
(34:44):
because you have that part as if you're full avoidant.
And I remember like always wanting to like fix or
save people and things like that. And I sat down
one day and I realized, like, I'm just really afraid
to see people in pain, because when they're in pain,
I can't handle it. Like I'm like, oh my gosh,
I feel your pain, and you better fix your pain
so I don't have to feel this. And and you know,
(35:05):
part of me was being in mesh and sort of
code pendant in that way, and I was trying to
change somebody else or control how they felt as a
means to control how I felt. And what I realized
this one day I sat down and I looked at
like some of the hardest experiences of my life, and
I sat down, like, what are the three or four
like hardest things I ever went through? And I sat
down and I just got really present, and I was like,
(35:27):
as hard as it is to ask myself this question.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
How did these really hard times serve me? What did
I learn? How did I grow?
Speaker 3 (35:35):
What was I forced to let go of that was
no longer serving me at the time, and I sat
with like really sat in those questions for a while,
and after some time I realized, like, some of the
hardest things I went through actually were some of the
most powerful learning experiences for me, and things that changed
me so deeply in a way that like actually did
(35:57):
all of this amazing stuff for me in the future
years to come. And pain is so hard and it's
so uncomfortable, but it's a powerful teacher. And sometimes when
we go through those really difficult experiences or painful things,
we're like, we think, oh, no, it's so bad, and
I don't want to see anybody else in pain because
it's such an awful thing. But sometimes we're actually robbing
them of those lessons and experiences at the same time.
(36:17):
And so allowing people to really sit in that pain
or have space to process things, as much as we
want to fix or want to save, can actually be
meaningful for not just us, but for the person going
through that experience itself.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, that's so true.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
I love that introspection. I hope you enjoyed listening to
my conversation with doctor Tyise Gibson. She gave me so
much good information that we decided to make a two
part episode, so stay tuned for part two. Thank you
so much for listening to Rachel Goes Rogue. Follow us
(36:52):
on Instagram and TikTok for exclusive video content at Rachel
Goes Rogue Podcast
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.