Nine Lifetimes with Billie Jean King

Billie Jean King sits down with Sarah in Málaga, Spain to discuss the tournament that bears her name, why tennis scoring is stupid (her words, not ours!), how she and her wife Ilana Kloss helped spark the PWHL into existence, and why it’s important for athletes to understand the business side of their sport. Plus, reindeer games, good boys who just wanna play ball, and rookie hardware.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to a good game with Sarah Spain where we're
trying not to judge the grunters in tennis, but we're
really not fans. It's Wednesday, November twentieth, and on today's show,
we'll sit down with one of the greatest tennis players
of all time, one of the most influential Americans of
the twentieth and twenty first centuries, and truly the goat
of women's sports equality and advancement, the one.

Speaker 2 (00:21):
And only Billy Jean King.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
Plus reindeer games, good boys who just want to play ball,
and rookie hardware.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's all coming up right after this.

Speaker 1 (00:39):
Welcome back, slices and greetings once again from Malaga, Spain.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Here's what you need to know today.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
The Billy Jean King Cup Finals conclude today and we
are excited to be in the building to watch the
showdown between Italy and Slovakia. In case you haven't caught
any of the action yet, here's how the event works.
During each round of competition, nations go head to head
in a best of three format featuring two singles matches
followed by one doubles match if necessary. Countries get a
point for each match they win two points you advance.

(01:09):
Slovakia will be going for its first win at the
event since two thousand and two and second win all time,
while Italy will be going for its fifth in history
to the NWSL. Leading up to Saturday's championship, the league
is announcing all of the end of season awards, including
Rookie of the Year, which went to Washington Spirit midfielder
and Friend of the Show Croy Bethune. If you missed

(01:30):
her interview in yesterday's show, go back and take a listen.

Speaker 2 (01:33):
A busy couple days for Croy.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
She was also announced as part of the league's Best
Eleven and Second Best Eleven, which honors the top twenty
two players in the league.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Withoon made the first team.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Saturday's finalists the Orlando Pride and Washington Spirit, along with
semi finalist Scot The FC led the league with five
players from each team earning either first or second team honors.
Also coaching honors announced on Tuesday, with Orlando Pride coach
Sub Hines earning Coach of the Year. He led Orlando
to a league best record of eighteen two and six
with a club record forty six goals while allowing just

(02:04):
twenty tied for the lowest conceded goals in the league
this year. He took over in June of twenty twenty
two as the interim coach and has already become the
all time winningest coach in Pride history with a thirty one,
thirty and twelve record and led the Pride to the
most points in a season sixty, most wins in a
season eighteen, longest win streak eight and longest unbeaten streak
twenty three in a single season twenty four total all

(02:26):
and WSL records.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
More footy news.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
US Soccer on Tuesday announced that Washington Spirit owner Michelle
Kang has pledged thirty million dollars over the next five
years to support the development of girls and women's soccer,
with the donation helping support talent identification camps and more.
Per US Soccer, the donation will quote create over one
hundred thousand new opportunities for girls and women in soccer
and quote double the number of national team camps that

(02:50):
currently runs, equating to six camps per age group for
youth national teams end quote to basketball, Unrivaled has announced
the six head coaches for the inaugural season WNBA fans
will recognize a couple names on the list. There's Teresa Weatherspoon,
the Naysmith Hall of Famer who most recently led the
Chicago Sky in twenty twenty four, and Nola Henry, who
was an assistant coach with the Los Angeles Sparks this

(03:11):
past season. The other coaches include former MNBA Los Angeles
Lakers assistant Phil Handy, former MNBA player Adam Harrington, prominent
professional skills coach DJ Sackman, and Washington Mystics player development
assistant coach Andrew Wade. In College field Hockey News, or
as Meisch wrote, NCAA faky, which listen me, I'm warming

(03:32):
up to vibes. I will consider vibes, but under no
circumstances will I ever let you make faki happen field hockey.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
We're just gonna call it field hockey anyway. The final
four is set.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
North Carolina, Saint Joseph's, Northwestern and the University of Massachusetts
are playing in the semi finals this Friday, with the
championship game on Sunday. Friend of the Show Aaron Matson's
UNC squad had a pretty uneventful journey to qualify for
their fifteenth Final four in the last sixteen years. The
Tar Hills open the tournament with a four to oh
win over Delaware, followed by a three to nothing victory
against Duke. In Pro Hockey news, the PWHL may be

(04:07):
coming to a city near you. On Monday, the league
announced its PWHL Takeover Tour, a slate of nine neutral
site regular season games that will be played in a
variety of locations across the US and Canada.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
The US cities on the tour.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Include Seattle, Denver, Detroit, Raleigh, Saint Louis, and Buffalo, and
stops in Canada will be in Quebec City and Vancouver.
The news comes after the PWHL announced that it plans
to expand to eight teams as early as next season,
so it's likely that a couple of these cities could
get a full time team in the very near future.
We'll link to the tour schedule and tickets in our
show notes and also sends manifestations to places that I

(04:42):
want to go as worked before. Wow, Vancouver, wouldn't I
just love to see a PWHL game in Vancouver. Just
put it out there to the WNBA. Per reporting from
Anti costable. The Chicago Sun Times, the Seattle Storm is
investigating its coaching staff for alleged player mistreatment, including harassment
and bullying related to on court performance. According to the

(05:05):
Sun Times, the team has hired a law firm to
look into the allegations, which include incidents at practice and
during games this past WNBA season. Noel Quinn is currently
the head coach of the Storm and has been since
former coach Dan Hughes retired in twenty twenty one. Quinn's
assistants this past season were former WNBA player Ebonie Hoffman,
longtime head coach and assistant Pokie Chapman, and Perry Hwang.

(05:25):
Will keep you updated as more reporting on that comes out.
One last note from the last few days of jam
packed sports news. Skier Mikayla Schiffrin earned her record extending
ninety eighth career World Cup win on Saturday at the
FIS World Cup slalom event in Levy, Finland, to give
herself the chance to compete for victory number one hundred

(05:46):
on home soil, with two upcoming races in Killington, Vermont,
on November thirtieth and December first. Now this is news
on its own as Schiffrin continues to add to her
unmatched resume. But my favorite part of this particular win
is that the levees on the tour includes a special prize,
perhaps my favorite of all the spoils of victory. No,

(06:06):
not the Santa Claus that celebrated with Schiffrin, although that
was a delight as well. My favorite prize is that
you get a baby reindeer. It stays in Finland, but
it's named by the winner, and Schiffrin's heard from past
victories at the event already includes Rudolph Svenn, Mister gru Ingemar, Sonny,
Lorax and Grogu, and on Sunday she announced that the

(06:27):
latest edition will be named.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Rory, short for Aurora Bori Alice.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Someone gotta start writing a new version of the song
because Mikayla's almost there, you know, Lorex and Grogu and
Sonny and Spenn. You get where I'm going with that. Anyway,
we got to take a quick break when we come back.
The Queen of Malaga, Spain, Billy Jane King. We are

(06:55):
here in Malagas, Spain, in the BJK offices adjacent to
the courts and joining us now she really needs no introduction,
but she deserves one. So here's a life of greatness
in a nutshell. Former number one tennis player who won
thirty nine Grand Slam titles and the infamous Battle of
the Sexes in nineteen seventy three, International Tennis Hall of Famer,
the first female athlete ever named Sports Illustrated Sportsmen of

(07:16):
the Year, Presidential Medal of Freedom, and Congressional Gold Medal winner.
The USTA National Tennis Center in New York City was
renamed the USTA Billy Jean King National Tennis Center in
two thousand and six, and in twenty twenty, the FED
Cup was renamed the Billy Jean King Cup. A pioneer
for equality and social justice, She's founded the Women's Sports
Foundation in nineteen seventy four. She's an owner investor in
countless teams and companies, including the Dodgers, Sparks, Angel City FC,

(07:39):
the PWHL, and Just Women's Sports. After meeting her, Charles
Schultz started highlighting issues of women's sports in the Peanuts
comic and Elton John wrote the song Philadelphia Freedom for
She's an icon, She's a hero.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
It's Billy Jean King BJK. What's up?

Speaker 3 (07:52):
That's pressures Sarah hard to get.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
It all out that quick. There's too many things I
would pick from.

Speaker 3 (07:57):
Elan and I really love your show, so thank you
so much.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
We love to hear from you. Every time you email,
they're listening.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
You do your research, which is most people don't, especially
young reporters. A lot of times will come and you
end up just educating them the whole time.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, it's okay.

Speaker 4 (08:12):
That's how you keep learning from each other, and I
always learn from others. It's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
The history matters, though, to contextualize. In order to know
what we're watching now, we have to know how it
fits into the larger and that's the biggest thing for
women's sports right now, is giving people enough information to
care and understand what they're watching.

Speaker 4 (08:27):
Well, this is what I always say by his story.
The more you know about history, the more you know
about yourself. But most importantly, it helps you shape the future.
It's shaping the future, I think probably reason I love
history so much, but I've always love history, even as
a child.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
So I want to ask you the most important thing first,
which we ask every tennis guest.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
It's a contentious question. What color is a tennis ball.

Speaker 3 (08:52):
What color is it?

Speaker 4 (08:53):
The ones we play with, they're probably yellow, probably well
yellow gold, whatever people want to look at it, yeah,
whatever they want to get an answer, it's usually yellow
in our I think most tennis players would probably say yellow.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Is that right?

Speaker 2 (09:08):
There is no answer.

Speaker 4 (09:11):
In the old days, they were white when I played
in the beginning, and then we changed in the seventies.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
We're in Malaga, Spain at the Billy Jean King Cup
formerly known as the FED Cup, renamed in your honor.
You want it ten times in your career with Team USA.
What makes this event so special?

Speaker 4 (09:26):
Well, I grew up in team sports and this is
a team event. And most people think of tennis only
as as an individual sport.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
It's not.

Speaker 4 (09:34):
It's really both. There's mixed doubles, doubles, singles. I like
doubles better than singles. I've always played all three events
when I when they had them available, like at the Majors.
And I just love playing for your country. There's there's
something about when you play for your country. You're playing
for something much bigger than yourself. You're representing your country

(09:57):
where you most people grew up.

Speaker 3 (10:00):
It's heavy. I mean it's good heavy.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Yeah, sure, it's a privilege.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
It is.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (10:05):
You know how that came about.

Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, we heard the story that he was open. We
told it on our show. Yeah, I love that story.
That's in this event.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
It's a Federation Cup. It's called Federation Cup. It started
in nineteen sixty three. I was on that team. I
was nineteen. I was the second best player. Darling Hard
was our best player, and Carol Colbo was our third player.
And we had sixteen teams that were invited just to
try it. It was the fiftieth anniversary of the ITF,
the International Tennis Federation, and it was at Queen's Club

(10:33):
and we're supposed to play outdoors on the grass, but
it rained, so we went indoors and of course on
the boards it was so fast, Bob. We were down
match points against Australia Margaret Smith now, Mark Smith Court
and Leslie Turner Leslie Turner Bowery now and we were
down match points and we won because I kept yelling
all week to the players, our players in our group,

(10:54):
that we have to win the first one because when
we look at the Cup the rest of our lives,
we'll be able to see that we won the first
and they kept saying, Oh, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
I look at him and give him this stare in
the long rooms. Are you kidding? This is history?

Speaker 4 (11:08):
Of course I love history, right, and I knew ten
twenty thirty years later. If they look at the Cup
and they see USA first, like hello, and so here
I am. I'm eighty years old. It will be eighty
one next week. And it's like if I look at
the Cup, I see USA first.

Speaker 3 (11:23):
And I'm like hello. It still feels good and I
remember the story.

Speaker 4 (11:26):
I remember being now match points and how exciting it was,
and Carol and I played all week in doubles, and
yet at the finals, our coach, our captain, mister Kellogg,
who was a tennis official, changed it up and said, no,
Darlene and Billy have to play, and it was the
right thing to do.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
It's like putting eg in the doubles here this year.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, so you have to put your best players.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
Let's talk about this year because we got the chance
to watch incredible matches between Poland and Italy and what
you just mentioned about the energy and the vibes, it's
so spectacular to hear drums and tambourines and chants things
you don't really hear at tennis termas because of the groups.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
WI I wish jennis tournaments would do that. Yeah, like
the the beck of our shirts. I think we should
have numbers. Actually the players do have numbers, like in Australia.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
So yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
It's a very different atmosphere than the average tournament. But
also it's it's interesting to kind of get a perspective
on the state of tennis in different countries. And of
course not always the best players are available to play.
But this year Team USA got knocked off by Slovakia.
They haven't won since twenty seventeen players. Yeah, was it
just a matter of we didn't have.

Speaker 4 (12:30):
The best players and I don't know why, but we're
going to find out.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
We know that this event this year was supposed to
be in Sevilla, it ended up getting moved here to Malago,
which is also the site of the Davis Cup. Is
that something in the future you'd like to see is
both in the same place at the same time. I
know in this case it caused the creation of this
incredible bubble in order to play while the men are
in that original facility over there. If you had a
place where you could both be in a Really I

(12:54):
love it.

Speaker 4 (12:55):
When the men and we were together. Yeah, I think
it's one of the pluses we have in our sport.
We started in the late teen hunts with men and women,
which I think teed it up culturally, and I think
that was a real blessing looking back at history, because
you don't want to have to fight to start having
them together and not together.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
And the majors have them together. It's a better event.

Speaker 4 (13:14):
It's worth a lot more money than if they're single tournaments.
And I think from a business point of view, you
have to look at that, how do we keep getting
people excited, how do we get younger people in our sport.
It's important to keep track of the average age of
the spectators because like baseball, for instance, got up into
the fifties and now they're back down in the forties.

(13:35):
They made some changes, made it tighter. We need to
think like that. And tennis is tough, you know, it's
very traditional. You know, I grew up in basketball, track
and field. Well, actually the things you did besides the
tennis you played as well, and so I came from
that and tennis.

Speaker 3 (13:54):
Was a rude awakening.

Speaker 4 (13:55):
It is a child, because well, look at the scoring.
I think it should be one, two, three four. How
do you get new kids in the game. I mean
they come to watch and I've never been in tennis.
And my coach starts saying, well, let me explain the scoring.
It's fifteen love.

Speaker 3 (14:08):
Thirty the I know forty five, right.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
They go, No, I go and I'm eleven years old,
And I said to him, this is the stupidest, great English,
the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Now I know, I'm
like a lot of kids. I don't come from tennis.
My family's on in tennis. And if you are in
tennis as a child, you still want to make it fun. Yeah,
And I think when you start tennis you should be
put on a team.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Just put them on a team.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
They can be a great make it less individual less
in the beginning, because it's about relationships, and the best
relationships I still have today probably from the players I
played Federation Cup with or Billy Jinking Cup with.

Speaker 2 (14:44):
Yeah, and it's so great to see the teammates sort
of cheering each other on.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
And I imagine if you had the Davis Cup and
the Billy Jean King Cup together, not only could you
have them occurring simultaneously in their current iteration. But then
you could have that one last game of mixed doubles,
one of the playing each other.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
I'm just listen, I want to change the scoring, Billy.
I'm try changes as big the troubles.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
You have to have the two teams. It would be
tough part.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
But the Italian men came last night. Yeah, yeah, no,
I say, guys came over to watch them.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
It's been a very cool scene, not only the tennis
but also the recognition of Rafa here in Spain as
he's retiring, and then the activations, the food trucks, the brands,
everybody getting involved in.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
It was the fan fest, that's yeah, the fan fest.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
It was really cool to see, like the ELF activations
or both inside the tournament where you're watching them get
the fans excited and having dance offs and playing music
and stuff. Let's just helping y, let's help some help
some stuff up. But they also had these really cool
activations outside. And you know, you've been fighting for investment
in women's sports for years and I'm wondering how different

(15:46):
your brand relationships in twenty twenty four. Are brands that
you're working with like ELF. How different is that for
you compared to your early years when you were seeking
sponsor support.

Speaker 4 (15:55):
Well, there must they really do help promote it better.
And the ones we had days, I must say Philip
Morris was amazing.

Speaker 3 (16:02):
I don't smoke.

Speaker 4 (16:03):
I went nuts when we got them, and I end
up loving every one of them. Are still friends within
that anybody who's still alive, because they really cared about
us and really helped further our mission. And that's what
we're finding with ELF and the other sponsors. Game Bridge
has been amazing. Greenbridge is our main sponsor, and they're
the reason we get equal prize money with the men.

(16:23):
They're very big on equality. And then they also have
a parody that belongs to Gamebridge. Some of the athletes
will be here and then we're having our you know
most you know, women's Sports Powerful Summit for the first time,
which I've been wanting to do for years and really
emphasize sports.

Speaker 3 (16:39):
I've be gone to Fortune, I've gone to Forbes. I
every time I.

Speaker 4 (16:42):
Go, I go, You've got to have a sports part
of this because sports business, especially women is just now
in its infancy of really taking off and exploding. I mean,
we were at four percent media content and then five
were kind of got excited. Right now, we're fifteen and
I think we're supposed to be at twenty five by
next year.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
There's more money.

Speaker 4 (17:04):
I think we can maybe go up to a billion
dollars a minute at two point seven billion, I think.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
And we're on our way now, We're just on our way. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:12):
The women. I was in Australia for the long and
I were there for the World Cup of Soccer. Yeah,
I know. I always has dandy football. I'm alga to
say football and.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
I say footy now and then it sounds like a
real insider.

Speaker 3 (17:26):
Foot is that? No, that's Australian rules.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Well, in the US, the US women say footy because
they know that people will roll their eyes at football,
but they don't.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
Like to say soccer.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
If you say footy in Australia, it's really came from footy,
came from Australia with Australian Australian rules football. Yeah, so
when they say footy, they're not really being accurate. It's
fun though, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
So we're watching all this growth around women's sports, and
we were recently together at the fiftieth anniversary celebration of
the women's.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
Sports Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and you want to know.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
You founded it back in nineteen seventy four.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
The videos looking at the decades of both the mens
of women athletes, but also what was going on socially
and politically during all those times, was really powerful to watch.
And I'm wondering, when you look back at the fifty
years that have passed, are you more excited about how
far we've come or are you more disappointed that we're
fighting some of the same battles still?

Speaker 4 (18:15):
Probably both, But I always look forward. I've always been
somebody I read history and know the past because I
know want to shape the future, and so I'm always
in the future. I mean, if you talk to Alana
and she'll say, oh God, Billy's always thinking about where
we can go, what we should do, how to make
it better. I'm really painful to be around because I
look at everything and right we've got a list, a
long list for next year, for instance, with the Billy

(18:36):
Jim Kinkob, how to make improvements with the scheduling and this,
Oh my god, I drive everybody nuts. But I've always
thought about the future. I always have a vision. A
lot of times for things like I did for tennis,
to take it from amateur tennis in the sixties fourteen
dollars a day to having a circ you know, having
a tour and having prize money, and then at the

(18:59):
major's have equal prize money, which took a long time. See.
Originally I wanted the men and women to be together
in the late sixties when pro tenn has just started
in nineteen sixty eight, I said, why don't we have
tennis associating with the men and the women, And the
men continually said no, The men boycotted wimbled. In seventy three,
I went to Arthur Ash and other men and said,

(19:19):
do you want us to go along with you to
help with the boycott. I'll go to the women and
talk to him. I don't know if they'll do it
to support you. They said no, we don't want you to,
and I said, well, thank you. You just made us the
stars of the nineteen seventy three women and then we
were It wasn't even close. We had all the A
players in women's tennis there and they didn't have the
A men because they boycotted. And I appreciated what they did,

(19:40):
but to always not allow us to be with them.

Speaker 3 (19:44):
I think that's a mistake. I think you're more powerful.

Speaker 4 (19:46):
I think one thing we have going for us culturally
is that we've had the men and women together forever.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
I think it makes us stronger.

Speaker 4 (19:53):
And I always said to them, it's not what we
can do to do on the court, but what we
could do together off the court to make this world
a better place.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
This is, you know, this.

Speaker 4 (20:01):
Is just a little spect Every sports a spec really,
but sports are microcosm society. They tell you what's happening,
and women's sports tells you a lot about where women are.
And we've got a long way to go. I think
we're probably gonna go backwards for a while, and women
have to stand up and say what they want and need,
which is a really hard thing for girls. I'll never

(20:23):
forget when I met Mark Walter, who's the Dodgers, owner
of the Lakers, everything owner for us, and I met
him in a fundraiser because I do a lot of fundraisers,
and this was for Camal Murray in the South side
of Chicago, and he was sitting next to Lana and
I saw his body language as I was speaking about
how you know, we're trying to raise money, obviously because

(20:45):
Comal was making a new tennis center. It's twenty seven.
It's just beautiful in the South Side. It's absolutely stunning.
X S's called, and I just saw this guy and
I didn't know who he was. His body language told
me something was and so sure enough, right after he goes,
oh yeah, I want you Nilana to be part of
the Sparks and this, and I said, now, this is

(21:06):
unusual for me. In fact, is probably the first time
really I said, what about the Dodgers, because i grew
up with the Dodgers. I'm from southern California. My brother
and I, you know, used to bleed Dodger blue. And
of course then my brother became a professional baseball player.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
And what happened. The Giants, the rival.

Speaker 4 (21:24):
You know, they don't get to pick every time in
the draft with them, so they chose them and he
played ten years.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
I was a picture.

Speaker 4 (21:29):
If you played ten years on the Saramanchisco Giants baseball team,
you get to be part of their Hall of Fame.
So Randy's my RJ or whatever. Moffatt, it's our birthday.
It's up, you know, it's up on the outside of
the building, the inside of the building. So I loved
finding where his photo is and the plaque on him.
And I had so much fun because I love him

(21:50):
so much, and you know, he's five years younger and
I wanted a brother or sister so badly, and he
came along and we just played ball together and has
so much fun.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
So you'll make an exception for the giants with him,
but other than that, it's dodged all the way.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
When he went with the Giants, I was giants with
him as soon as he left him back to Dodger.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Not only a fan but an owner. You're like, am
I going to root against your root for your rival,
but I'm going to own it.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
No. But it's good because it's women. We're gay.

Speaker 4 (22:14):
I mean, you know, they're trying to have more inclusion. Yeah,
and they're sending very positive messages and we are.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
Seeing this like real, I think see change in the
last even just a couple years for women's sports. And
I wonder what surprised you the most.

Speaker 4 (22:30):
I'm not surprised. I've been waiting, so I'm always waiting
and I'm like, finally, finally, come on, we can do this.
I think the number of women's sports. People are investing
in us finally, I mean investing. They think they're going
to get a return on.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
That opportunity, not support, not a cause.

Speaker 4 (22:47):
Not you know, a charity like we're going to try
to be nice and help you girls, which is usually
what we had to deal with. And I think when
we started our tour back in nineteen seventy one, that
was that was a true brand investment helping women's tennis,
and we were by far the leaders golf. The LPGA

(23:08):
started in nineteen fifty with thirteen members players.

Speaker 3 (23:12):
They started it and their way ahead.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
But in nineteen seventy one, Kathy Whitworth, who was number one,
made I think around forty thousand, and I made I
told my former husband Larry, I said in December of
seventy I go, you know what, I'm going to try
and make one hundred thousand next year because maybe if
I can make that money, people will notice our tour
and start to follow us. Because everyone understands money. Whether

(23:35):
you're a teacher or factory worker, a billionaire, it doesn't matter.
Everyone understands money. And so I thought, you know what,
that's a common denominator. And I said to Larry, if
I could do that, maybe we'll get more people and
get some traction for people to watch us. And people
did start keeping track as you're going to make it,
not make it. I made it the last week.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
I was really tight. I was in Phoenix.

Speaker 4 (23:56):
I remember everything, and but about killed me because we
made eighteen hundred dollars.

Speaker 1 (24:01):
When we want a tournaments, a lot of tournaments to
get done.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
I got that.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
And we had one tournament that had forty thousand dollars
in Houston at Gladys Hellman, who's responsible for getting the sponsor,
and we signed a dollar contract with her nine of
us in nineteen seventy and this is nineteen seventy one,
and she held a tournament for forty thousand. I don't
think she knew what she was doing, but I did
because I think if I can win that, that's ten thousand. Wow,

(24:30):
that's like four tournaments. I had five tournaments, and I thought,
unless I win that, I'm not going to make it.
At the end of the year, I figured it out,
and so I was totally exhausted because we do.

Speaker 3 (24:41):
A lot of promotions. That's all we did.

Speaker 4 (24:44):
We signed every autograph until the last person left. We
did media six o'clock radio shows, two o'clock in the morning.
If we had indoors, I would be talking to a
magazine person.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
I mean, and that's the case for women athletes a
lot of times still to this day. It's not only
do you have to be the best at your sport,
but you have to help sell the tickets, promote it.
Not the very highest level of tennis, for instance, but
oh you look at like PWHL players, that's the first
year with this year, but I mean hockey players the
last couple of years, even before the p WHL, they
had to be the best player in the world. Yes,

(25:15):
sell tickets, do media from the morning till night of
the same day that they're playing. And I think that's
one of the things that's going to change with investment.
You talked about how sometimes you talk a lota's ear
off about what's next?

Speaker 2 (25:25):
What's next? You are eighty eighty one next week, you're
not slowing down? What keeps you going? Instead of saying, Okay,
I think I'm good, I'm going to relax a little bit.

Speaker 4 (25:34):
Nothing's changed since I was a baby. I mean, I
don't know if you know my epiphany story. I was
told yeah, And I was at the Los Angeles Tennis Club.
I've been playing tennis one year, and I just looked
around that kind of daydreaming, and I thought, you know,
everyone wears white clothes, play with white balls, and everybody
plays as white, and where's everybody else?

Speaker 3 (25:58):
And then I started thinking, you know what tennis is made.
We're global sport, We're all over the world. This is
you know. I'm like, this isn't amazing because a lot
of sports are just us.

Speaker 4 (26:08):
And I thought, wow, this is an opportunity, and I
wanted to make the world better. And I already knew
at eleven I was a SEC. I mean at twelve,
I was a second class citizen. I knew it eleven actually,
but I also knew my sister's a color, I knew
my people with disabilities. I knew they were much worse
off than I was. But by the time you're a

(26:30):
girl at seven eight, most of the time, I think
you start to realize this world's for the boys, it's
not for me, and you're going to have to find
a way to get in there and have your niche
and have what's important to you and figure it out.
But so I may have promised to myself that day
at twelve, when I had my epiphany that because tennis
is global and if I could become number one, maybe

(26:52):
just maybe people might listen. Maybe I'd have a platform.
I didn't know the word platform, but I was thinking
platform and visualizing.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
It and influence. You just knew that there was some
power being great at something.

Speaker 3 (27:06):
When you ask kids today, you go, what do you
want in them? Be an influencer?

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah? I know, it's it's depressing.

Speaker 3 (27:11):
So it's very depressing. I go, what does that mean?

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah? They go, you know, learn a skill, kid, learn
an instrument?

Speaker 3 (27:16):
There are They think that is being a skill And
then they go, well, how many followers?

Speaker 1 (27:19):
All?

Speaker 3 (27:20):
I have one hundred and followers. I'm like, you need
a little more than so. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
I mean I think there is your through line clearly,
and anyone who knows your story knows that it's been
your entire life since you were ten or eleven, looking
around and thinking what isn't right here?

Speaker 2 (27:33):
And how do I fix it? And I wonder when
you're looking around, you know.

Speaker 1 (27:37):
We spoke for my podcast in twenty twenty one, and
you said your biggest dilemma was a lack of time
you wanted to have another lifetime to keep fighting, start over,
keep going.

Speaker 3 (27:47):
I want nine lifetime.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Yeah, I want a hundred.

Speaker 3 (27:50):
It'll be fine than you.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
But I already feel that way as well.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
And sometimes I look back and think, oh, man, I
wish i'd already been more aware of things even twenty
years ago, to start fighting even earlier. And for you,
what are your priorities right now? What's top of the
list to keep going and doing well.

Speaker 4 (28:07):
I'd like to make the you know not I, but
we would like to make the Billy Jing can come
better and better, get more countries, even more than one
hundred and thirty seven, because there's probably two hundred and ten.
I think when the ITF the International Tennis Federation, there's
a federation in every country, and that's grassroots for the kids.
The young players play the ITF tournaments, the International Tennis
Federation tournaments, and that's how you start to play tennis,

(28:30):
and then you graduate to the eighth you know, the
ATP of the Men's Tour or the WTA tournaments. It's
there's a real process for kids.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
So there's more places that could be playing an end.
So I want to get better.

Speaker 4 (28:41):
And tennis is amazing sport. I played all the other
sports first, and I realized when I started playing that
I could hit one hundred balls in five minutes.

Speaker 3 (28:53):
I played shortstop, sooptball. Of course, we had to.

Speaker 4 (28:56):
Play softball, not baseball at that time. And then I figured,
I'm up to bat one every nine times, and I
can hit a hundred balls in tennis less than five minutes.
And yet as a shortstop, you're considered you get the
most action in the infield, right, And I probably this is.

Speaker 1 (29:14):
Clearly a metaphour for your life. I'm sure you understand this.
You're like, I know what I'm saying. I'm touch the
ball stop all you were like, oh, I don't get
to touch the ball enough. In tennis, I get to
hit a hundred balls, and in life you're like, I
gotta do one hundred things.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
I got to hit one hundred. Yeah, it's it's it's
a story for your life. I mean, I love you.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
I love that you're still going and I love that
you're not settling down because your influences is unmatched in
this space. And I literally jokingly call you the Forest
Gump of women's sports.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
If they made a movie, you.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Would pop up telling Julie Foudy and the ninety nine
ers how to get started. You would pop up telling
the p w HL, I'm gonna help launch this league,
talking to Cammi Granado and the hockey player.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
I mean, every story I hear. Well, we asked Billy
Jean King, and that's how we got going.

Speaker 4 (29:59):
Well, you know where we met though, we met at
the Women's Sports Foundation dinner, the gala. Every year, I've
met every person you mentioned. And Angel rorigueiros I was
a total superstar in than any Winter Olympics. And she's
one of my shoe rolls. I've got so many shoe
ros I love them sports in this field of endeavor,
and now I've learned of all the different sports you play.

(30:20):
Now I've got a whole new I'm going to learn
a lot more.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
But it's just that's where the reason, one of the
reasons I wanted to start that was for networking.

Speaker 4 (30:30):
You have to people have to put this in perspective.
We had no phones, we had no social media, we
had nothing in those days. So how do you get
the athletes together? So what we did, even at the
dinner the day before, we got all the athletes together.
So they could exchange their names and addresses, and all
of us started talking about our sports and how we
get help, and I said, you've got to help more
than your own sport. Most people do not. Most athletes

(30:52):
only want to help their own their basketball players, I
only want to help basketball. If I'm a soccer player,
I want to help soccer. Well, I don't look at that.
That's why I call the Women's Sports Foundate. I didn't
call it the Billy Jenkin Foundation called the Women's Sports
because I wanted every sport, women's sport to feel they
belonged to this, and they do. It's very important that
we help each other, not just your own.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Sport, change the whole landscape.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
Yes, because one affects the other, one helps the other.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
And we've seen for years, we've used tennis as this
example of like, how do we get more women's sports
to be like tennis, where there's equal prize money, where
the expectation of going to see the top women's players
is as exciting, if not more so, than men. And
doing that in other sports is a little trickier for
a number of reasons, but it's given us something to
aim for because of the work that you did way
back when.

Speaker 4 (31:37):
Because women's professional tennis, although they had men's pro tennis
on a contract, proleuce to call it for years, and
Susan Longlan was really the first pro and back in
the twenties or was it late even before the twenties,
but she was our first superstar in the sport.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
Man or women. She was it. When you go to
Wimbledon and.

Speaker 4 (31:58):
You walk, you get a seat in center Cory. The
reason they have that center court is because of Susan
Longland and to a lesser extent, Bill Tilden, and she
had sold so many tickets at the old Womann Club
down the street that they had to find land to
build a bigger place just to accommodate ticket sales. But
she's the reason they wanted to come to see Susan Longland.

(32:19):
The way she dressed, the way she plays. She was
very balletic. She won that helps you got to be winner,
and she was very mystical for people and just you know,
she just got that teaching. And I think that when
the tours started in seventy one, the men just got
really got started then two whereas if you look at

(32:42):
the NBA, they're seventy eight years old and the women's WNBA,
what are twenty eight years old? And people have to
put that in perspective when they start saying, why aren't
the women doing.

Speaker 3 (32:51):
As good as the guys?

Speaker 2 (32:52):
I said, are you kidding me?

Speaker 3 (32:54):
And I go, they're seventy eight years old. We're twenty
eight and they go, oh, I never thought about it
like that. I said, we're very young. Business.

Speaker 4 (33:02):
Another thing, I was sitting in the stands with David Stern,
who was the commission He's a market he was a
marketing genius.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
And the NBA.

Speaker 4 (33:12):
Jerry Buss told my former husband that the NBA was
going to go under in the late seventies.

Speaker 3 (33:17):
Did they ever talk about that? Of Kars Stocks?

Speaker 4 (33:19):
So what happens in those days they had tape delayed finals.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
So you could watch it two weeks later or whatever.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
So what happened is we got Magic Johnson, Irvin he
likes to be called, and Larry Bird in the in
the NCAA finals for the colleges.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
But everybody thinks it's because of them. No, it's not.
It's because of them.

Speaker 4 (33:42):
And David Stern from the business side, in the marketing,
he was a marketing genius and he got it, and
he said, we're going to change this fast forward. I'm
sitting with David Stern, who loved tennis, played a lot
at the US Open and the President's box. I'll never
forget this day. The WNBA had just getting started. I
turned to David. I said, David, you have to promise

(34:04):
me one thing. He says, sure, What is it I'm thinking?

Speaker 3 (34:08):
He said, sure? Oh good.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
Please do not let the WNBA fail. You have to
promise me you will not let it fail because we've
already had a few leagues, and that always happens in
every sport. By the way, they act like it's only
women's sports. That's how No, if you look at men's
sports or women's sports, you look at the beginning of time,
it's just that men's sports is so much older, or even.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Recently XFL is in its third generation.

Speaker 4 (34:32):
It's just it just takes time and you're going to
have you know, some are going to fail, but they
still help the sport go forward. It's like a stepping stone.
It's like the other women's ice hockey leagues helped the PWHL.
They did so I'm thankful to everyone every generation. But
the point is that people never talk about how men's

(34:54):
sports is in trouble financially, but they always talk about
our failures. And that's very much boy girl.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
They talk about talk.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Aboutout men's potential versus blaming girls if there isn't an
instant return on investment.

Speaker 3 (35:06):
And so it's really irritating.

Speaker 4 (35:08):
So once you start to explaining these things, but David
turning me says, I promise I will not let it fail.

Speaker 3 (35:14):
And guess what, it's still going.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
We have to take a quick break when we come
back more With Billy Jean King.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
On our last podcast, one of the things we talked
about was the terrible difficulty you had in coming out,
and it was terrible and expectations for you as your
sponsorships and people's view of you, and.

Speaker 3 (35:39):
I lost all my sponsorships.

Speaker 4 (35:40):
Yeah you and already twenty four hours. This is just
like a slow little drip.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
It was bath. But I knew that would happen.

Speaker 4 (35:48):
During the seventies, I was told if I'd talk about
what I was thinking and feeling, which I wasn't sure
who I was. I was trying to find myself my
sexuality on it, and they said, if you say one thing,
we will not have a tour, so.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
That made it really easy. I go, I'm not going
to do that.

Speaker 2 (36:05):
I'm tolding everyone up by having to keep myself.

Speaker 4 (36:07):
But eventually, but eventually, knew it wouldn't matter because one
individual isn't going to make that kind of difference. Right well,
in the beginning they think it is.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
I hope that's the case even when the individual as president,
because I'm curious what you think another Trump presidency might
mean for the LGBTQ plus community.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
I'm worried about.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
I'm not sure going backwards.

Speaker 4 (36:26):
I don't know. I have no idea. And the Congress
is all Republican now, which you know, to get the
gold Congressional Gold Medal, you have to have both parties.
You can't get that without both. It's very interesting process.
I didn't know any of this. I an individual. When

(36:47):
an athlete's never gotten one, which I find extraordinary, but
a lot of male athletes, I'm sure have it. But
it's a bipartisan and I.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
Think that's huge. That makes me happy because.

Speaker 4 (36:59):
I'm more of a little person that everyone thinks I'm
really far left, and I'm not. It's just an assumption,
but I'm not. I'm much more down the middle than
people realize, because you've got to be pragmatic.

Speaker 1 (37:09):
It's clearly how you've achieved a lot in your life
is your ability to appeal to the allies on a
side that might not see your point of view and
convince them to come a little bit further over and
join you. I think it's I think we need both people.
We need the ones out front that are loudly pushing
for extremes that maybe the people in the middle don't
think we're ready for yet, and then we need the
people in the middle to bring folks along. I think

(37:29):
about like a I love the Megan Rappinos Sue Bird
combo because Megan's out front saying, back up the Brinks truck,
give me all the money.

Speaker 2 (37:37):
We deserve this, and Susan in the middle saying, how
do we do this?

Speaker 4 (37:40):
How do we get agree with that? We don't just
deserve anything, not deserve No. No, women get up and
go we deserve more money. We deserve athletes to do that.
Men and women, all both genders, are all genders, and
they'll all get up and say we deserve No, you don't.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
You don't even know about the business.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
What if they do deserve it, though what if the
occasion if you can improve it business wise?

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Generally, that is not girl.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
They deserved equal pay because the Federation is dedicated to
the growth of women and girls and boys, and this
is fair advantage to totally.

Speaker 4 (38:08):
If the Niners hadn't started it, or Pino would have
not made it okay or been a leader, and followers
choose leaders. Leaders don't choose followers, so you get the
Niners starting. God, Julie was funny help king or she
calls me Julie Foudy was the heart and soul of
the US team back in the nineties, and she says,

(38:29):
what are we going to do? And I said, well,
are you willing to give up something to get something?

Speaker 3 (38:33):
She goes, what do you mean?

Speaker 4 (38:34):
I said, well, athletes always want everything. And they use
the word I deserve when they don't know the business.
They have no idea what they're talking about, like even
getting the equal money from the soccer now.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
And I think the.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
Women deserved it because they do better than the men.
But why did they do better than the men? Because
soccer is a new sport in our country, because if
you look at other countries, the men are doing much better.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
Okay, But the difference also is a federation which is
a nonprofit versus like no one in the w NBA
says we deserve NBA money. They say we deserve ex
percentage or we deserve investment from media and outlets, whereas
the soccer demands were specific to the fact that they
were supposed to be supported equally by their own federation.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
You're making me have a lot more questions on which
is great. That's why that's why engagements.

Speaker 2 (39:19):
Do a show on it bill.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
That's why engagement's really important.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Let's do a show.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
Do you think the soccer players or the tennis players
are any athlete really understands the economics.

Speaker 3 (39:27):
I know they don't.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
I think the soccer players do just solely based on
knowing Bekeru, who is running the women's national players that
budgets on the should know about. Well, there's association, the
executive committee. Those players spend years in there creating the
CBAS more so than I think most men know about
their leagues. Because they are so important to the fight
for their own they don't have to worry, well, well,

(39:50):
the men are making millions regardless, and so they don't
notice as much the margins. The women have to be
in creating their own cbas otherwise they are getting screwed.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
So I think actually the highest levers.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Levels of women players, you know, way more about the
economic opportunities at play. You think they have to be
in those meetings for years.

Speaker 4 (40:06):
Yeah, I bet just soccer players. I wonder how many
probably you got to talk to your tennis players.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
You know, you got to get them in those meetings,
you know.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
You we talked about how you've been fighting for this
stuff for such a long time.

Speaker 4 (40:16):
Racialino and Sue invested their own money, have they.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
Yeah, Sue's a part owner of Gotham.

Speaker 3 (40:22):
That's it. I knew that, and then to watch the
other night.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Now that she's that, I think she just became a
part owner of the Storm as well.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Oh okay, yeah great, Yeah, I'm not sure about Pino yet.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
See that makes me happy because that's what we want.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, they just retired, so I think they're looking around
trying to figure out, well, that's what their next movie.

Speaker 4 (40:39):
I think they're fantastic super watching her play because I
love my first love.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yeah so much to tell you.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
I want to talk about how you were able to
fight for some of these things before most of the
people around you were ready for it. You know, you
were fighting for women's equality during a time ripe with misogyny.
You were fighting for racial quality when racism was far
more mainstream. Although I don't want to get into how
things are progressing these days, but at the time when

(41:06):
you were doing all this in the sixties and seventies,
how do you teach others the lessons of your lifetime
of advocacy and activism to encourage folks who are scared
or daunted by the next couple of years, or even
just by the future, who feel like people are not
ready for what they want to say.

Speaker 4 (41:21):
Or I constantly get players to I did. I constantly
got players together and with the hockey league. When kindle
Quin came to Elanomy said help, would you help us
start a new hockey league, one that truly treats us properly.
I'm looking at her like she's five two. By the way,
finally I'm taller than someone. From a moment, I go

(41:43):
Elana and I look at each time and go, okay,
we'll try. It took seven years, but Mark Walter is
the reason. He and Canberra, his wife are the reason
it happened. You need someone who believes in the investment. See,
he believes that he will get a return on his investment.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
Event.

Speaker 4 (42:00):
It's probably a little longer term than men maybe, but
he believes in it. And the Walter Cup, if you
look at it, it's one pound heavier than the Stanley Cup.
But everything Walter.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Cup, which is the trophy that the PWHL winning team brought.

Speaker 4 (42:16):
It is beautiful and everything on it has a reason,
Like on the bottom it's the crashing of the glass ceiling.
It's got every team on it. It's got four little
things around the hockey stick because four people get to
the final. I mean, everything's got a reason and assembled
to it, which I love. And then when the players won,
you know, the actually Minnesota one, which is odd because

(42:38):
there were number four out of six teams. But I
said to Kendall and I said that to the others,
I said, this thing is so heavy, and.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
They go, are you kidding? Give me that trub the above.

Speaker 3 (42:50):
I mean, it's thirty seven pounds above their abother hand,
they're scanning all around showing everybody. Everybody's clapping and going crazy.

Speaker 4 (42:56):
Was sold out, I mean it was amazing in Boston
and I. They passed you know, this trophy to each
player and they hold it up and I'm like, holy
come only I'm so old, Like I'm so weak, but
I just did it.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
Sounds like you were almost surprised we all were the success,
Like because when I asked about.

Speaker 3 (43:14):
We weren't sure. We don't know what you never hear.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
From your lifetime of advocacy. You jumped in with Kendall
coming to and you're like, I don't know, I don't
know if we could do this.

Speaker 3 (43:20):
That's happens.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Attendance records, broken, enthusiasm, off the charts, expansion already in
the talks.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Yeah, that's how you got to do it.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
I guess right.

Speaker 3 (43:28):
You got to take a leap as a leap of faith.

Speaker 4 (43:30):
But without Mark, it wouldn't happen. It takes millions, of
millions and millions of dollars.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Yeah, that's the unfortillions part.

Speaker 3 (43:35):
Yeah no, but the players have no clue.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
You need power money.

Speaker 4 (43:37):
The players know it takes a lot, They don't really
They need to get into the thick of it, you know,
the real budgets and all that, and that's where it's helpful.
And when you start to own something. You do start
to you know, you start to you start to worry
about that. And but the PWHL is definitely way ahead
of the game plan.

Speaker 3 (43:56):
We're probably in our fourth year.

Speaker 4 (43:58):
Yeah, we thought we'd be taking four years to say
you are, and we've been selling out in five to
ten minutes in the Montreals to Toronto's. You know, it's
a religion in Canada, but it's the parents and the children.
Everything I do, I try to, I try to. I
want a child and girls as particularly because we're way
behind to have the dream.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
I always explain it that way.

Speaker 4 (44:19):
I want them to have the dream. And the kids
come over and talk to us and they're crying a
lot now, and fathers, a lot of fathers go, you know,
you see that role over there. That's my three daughters
and I brought them and they just they're so excited
now they have a chance. They can see themselves as
maybe being a pro. Because what happens in hockey. The
the brothers and sisters go to play, like when they're three,

(44:41):
it's so adorable. And then say when the girl goes
about ten, they'll say, well you should become an ice skater,
and she like skatering figure. Well, you know, I keep
asking them. They say, we like to be got ice skaters.
Now I'm like, really, I always just thought it was
figure skating.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
I used to use that to differentiate between like hockey
and acco.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
And I go, okay, whatever you guys want. I mean,
I just keep asking.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
Keep me up to day. You're on top of it.

Speaker 4 (45:04):
So anyway, well, I'm going to ask you about We're
gonna do more on the after we're finished, chair, I'm
going to ask you more about the budgets and the
money of the soccers. I still haven't got the answers
I want. I keep asking everyone.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
I've got the right person think for you. I think
you But back to hockey, I think you're right.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
What happens is at a certain age they basically the
girls will play on a boys team for a while
now an adventually they'll get moved to you kicked off, right,
But you know.

Speaker 4 (45:25):
What the girls say to their parents, I want to play, yeah,
I don't want to be a bigger skater. And they
it's so adorable, they're so cute, and they have all
these signs that come with and they bring their babies
that are less than a year old and they put
the big, you know, ear things over there so they
don't get hurt because the noise is deafening at hockey
ice talking and it is just amazing. But I'm really

(45:49):
proud of the I'm more proud of the players because
when we first met, I'll never forget them saying, you know,
we want to do this, And I.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
Said, can you get the top players together?

Speaker 4 (46:01):
It's got to do with tennis too. You have to
have the top athletes. If you don't have the top athletes,
it's not going to happen. And I said, can you
get them? I said, you know Canada and the US
are always killing each other in the Olympics and the
World Championships. You know that border that's below Canada and
above us. I know it divides you, but in this
it is going to be the opposite. It connects you.

(46:23):
I said, can you and they.

Speaker 2 (46:25):
Got it together? No, but they got it.

Speaker 3 (46:27):
I said, you guys would be together when it's the
hockey league.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
You have to think of that as a connector not
a divider. And they and I came up with it
just talking to them, and they got it. And that's
why you keep learning those so you just keep learning
through these different processes.

Speaker 1 (46:43):
But what's great is that you have the lessons from
so far back and you keep reapplying them any ways,
as they stay the same and as they change. You know,
I want to ask you as we let you go here,
since I keep talking about you being the Forrest Gump
of the last eighty years, who is the next Billy
Jean King? Do you have your site set on someone
that you're going to demand of them? Hey, I need
you to pick up the mantle for the next forty

(47:03):
fifty years.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
I think Soon and Rapino trying to do that. I
think in their own way.

Speaker 4 (47:07):
I think I heard Rapino in an interview says she
wants to be a broker. That's basically what we're doing.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
Can we ready to do it?

Speaker 3 (47:15):
We need to have dinner together. Feel's working on ESPN
all the time and doing all that.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
And yes, I do talk to her, and she's very
good when we talk, and if we have a goal,
she gets on it.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
She doesn't she doesn't mess around. She's and she's very bright.
You know, she could have gone to medical school.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Yeah, Standford, stand Fanford, girly.

Speaker 4 (47:32):
And she decided no, it would be soccer. I love
my soccer number eleven center.

Speaker 3 (47:36):
What do you call mid midfield? In the old days,
we were half you know, Like.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
I'm just trying to get you to call someone out
right here, right now so that they feel the pressure.

Speaker 4 (47:44):
That is well doing it okay, But I need girl
women of color to get in there.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Uh. And they got to think about it. You've got
to think in the terms of we.

Speaker 4 (47:53):
You cannot say I or I'm just going to help
blacks or I'm just going to help whites.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
You cannot do that.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
You got to help everybody. Like I'll give you a
perfect example with the hockey. I said, I will not
help you unless you get more girls of color and
ice hockey it's terrible. And there are some clubs of
girls of color. I said, you've got to get them included.
You've got to get more clubs or whatever you think
is going to make it work. But I will not
help you anymore unless you promised me that before we start.

Speaker 3 (48:22):
They said, we promise.

Speaker 4 (48:23):
I said, okay, let's go, because we have to open
up our sport to everyone. And whatever sport you're in,
you need to be inclusive as much as you can.
And some sports are much harder tennis is all white.
We've had to work hard, you know. We had THEA
Gibson in nineteen fifty seven, she won her first Wimbledon.
She won the French in fifty six.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
She was my Sheiro.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
I'll think Gifton was my absolute first Sheiro in my life.
And I was thirteen when I saw her play and
if you can see it, you can be it. And
when I saw her, because that's what number one looks like.
I know I'm a white girl and she's black, but
I saw what it looked like as far as the ability,
how well you have to play to be number one,
I went, oh, I don't know if I can ever
be that good. But my parents always told us that

(49:04):
every generation gets better.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
I go, God, that means I have to get better.
How am I going to be better than that? You know?

Speaker 4 (49:09):
And I just remember having this discussion with myself as
a child at thirteen, going oh, but she was fantastic.
And then I got to know her and actually included
her in the Women's Sports Superstars and she won a
lot of money, which is good. She didn't make a
lot of money, so I always tried to help create
opportunities and then we had an exhibition in nineteen sixty
and I invited her. I said, are you still playing
well enough not to be embarrassed? And she said, no,

(49:31):
I'm playing well. And I said, okay, you have to
come and we'll pay you as much as anybody.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
And she went, really, I'll be there. Are you kidding?
I need the money.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
Well, you've set that example throughout of inclusivity in a
way that really is a model for everybody else. So
you've given a real big job to whoever follows you,
whether that's Suing Pinot or Founder or whoever are.

Speaker 4 (49:51):
They are, and those three for sure. But which woman
of color? I was always hoping Cocoa Gough. Yeah, because
she gave a great speech when she was about sixteen
and in Florida.

Speaker 3 (50:01):
I heard her and I thought, oh, she's the one.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
She seems ready. I don't know yet, but she seems
like a prime candidate.

Speaker 4 (50:08):
Big thing is most players don't want to do athletes
don't want to do this is truly learn the history
and truly learn how to be inclusive. Athletes today say
I all the time. I found the first two generations
say we us, and by the third generation it's I.
And if we could get the third and fourth and
fifth and sixth generations to say we and think beyond ourselves,

(50:29):
especially in an individual like golf, tennis and certain sports.
I know they're taught to say team, you know in basketball,
in these sports, but I'm like, do you really feel
in it?

Speaker 3 (50:40):
Do you really thinking about.

Speaker 4 (50:42):
Taking your sport with you as you go forward? And
I don't think most athletes, once the league's more mature,
they don't take the sport with him anymore. They have
to think we us, where are we going? And you
can't just seep asking for things to say I deserve it.
Learn the business before you ask the question, and they don't.
And that's what I'd like them to think about. And

(51:03):
when I say learn the business, well, let's say tennis,
go work in a tournament, Go ask the promoter at
the end of the week how he or she has done.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
And they've never done that. If every player I've talked
to I.

Speaker 4 (51:14):
Said, did you get paid? They said, of course I
got paid. I said, okay, did you ask the promoter
who's worked all year for this one week and they've
invested money so they could lose money.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
They look at me like huh, And.

Speaker 4 (51:28):
I go have you asked them how they've done? Not
one player today as ever said yes, not one. That's
not good. They need to know is everyone else doing
all right? Are the sponsors happy? Are the young players
coming up happy? Are the older players happy? Are are
the people who run these events and take the risk?

Speaker 3 (51:47):
How are they doing?

Speaker 4 (51:48):
Because if they're not happy, they're not going to say
I'm not doing this and we're not going to do
something else with my life, with my money. And I
don't think people understand the tenuous situation we're in all
the time.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
It's an ecosystem. Everybody is a part of it.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
That's our great play day is everyone understand the larger ecosystems.
So it's not just demanding more for the athletes, but
understanding the business side. So when they demand it, it's
because they and they deserve it.

Speaker 4 (52:09):
Sorry, I keep Interrupting's got to stop it because I'm
so excited talking with you. No, I I keep telling
players you've got They always say to me what should
I do? And I go learn the business and they
go I said, I mean, really learn it. Go work
at a tournament, or go work and work for a
soccer team, or go whatever, and it's great that Bob

(52:30):
Iger and Will o'bey have bought Angel Angel CDFC because
well they're friends of ours anyway.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
And I mean it's like you said, it's.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
We instead of I. That's how you get stuff done. Yes,
and we have to go, I know, but we have
to think about others, not just ourselves.

Speaker 3 (52:44):
Agreed.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Final message is a good one from Billy jin King.
Thank you so much for the time.

Speaker 3 (52:48):
Yeah, thanks so much, sir. It's great to talk to
you you too.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
Thanks again to BJK for taking the time. We got
to take another break. We'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
Welcome back, all.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
Right, slices, you already heard our good gameplay of the day.
Billy wants us all athletes especially to learn the business
side of their.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Sport and other sports.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
If you've got a great resource, book, article, research study,
or otherwise about any sport or league that you think
we could all learn from, send it our way. Help
us get edumicated, slices, send them a good game at
wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us a voicemail at eight
seven two two oh four fifty seventy and don't forget
to subscribe, rate and review. It's super easy watch a

(53:37):
very good boy at a tennis match three out of
three adorably disruptive barks. So at the bunday session of
the Billy Jean Kingcup between Poland and Italy, a very
good boy or girl wanted to make its presence felt
in the stands, barking three times during match play.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
Absolute silence, and then you heard it.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
I'm not sure if the Golden Retriever wanted to get
in the game and grab a tennis ball, or maybe
was trying to voice support for Team Italy or Team Poland.
Either way, no shushing pups, even at a tennis tournament.
Play on now, it's your turn, rate and review. Thanks
for listening. Slices tomorrow, Potatoes, cheese, stares and shushes. Tales

(54:17):
from Malaga and the Billy Jean Kingcup. Good Game, Billy
Jean King, Good game, Golden Retriever, Few air quality in Malaga.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
We love you, but you was Smaggi bitch.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports
production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You
can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network.
Our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Our executive producers are.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Our
editors are Emily Rudder, Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch and Lindsay Cradowell.
Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your Host Sarah
Spain