April 7, 2025 • 53 mins
This week Ray Comfort shares his journey of faith, detailing his upbringing in New Zealand without a Christian background. At 20, despite business success, he faced an existential crisis that led him to Christ after reading Jesus’ words on sin.
Passionate about evangelism, Ray uses creative methods like gospel tracts, billboards, and even riding a bike with his sunglasses-wearing dog to spark conversations about faith. He critiques the modern church’s neglect of evangelism, emphasizing its urgency. His street preaching gained attention from a Christian media group, leading to the documentation of his impactful encounters.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Boy, No, you can tell when someone's in the counter
in front of your takest thing. I had someone the
other day just there wasn't a back road, it wasn't
like dangerous or on a freeway or anything. But I
could just tell them all over the side, then that side,
and looking down, I felt like honk in my horn,
but I might get shot.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I didn't know you had a horn on that bicycle.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Right, I actually do. Almost got killed because of it,
very close to getting killed because of that horn.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So for people listening right now, oh well you recording recording,
by the way, I prefer sometimes I prefer to start
it more natural.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, it really isn't natural.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
So there. You know, you could approach the average person,
the average Christian, and you could say Ray Comfort. They
may or may not know the name Ray Comfort, and
they may or may not know the name Living Waters.
You know. The people that are in the nose certainly do.
But as soon as you say bicycle, he says, have
(01:04):
you ever told a lie in her life? And they go, oh,
I got it.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
You got to throw that guy good looking, You got
to throw that on the extremely handsome yet hit right.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It's such an honor to have you, sir, thank you
for being on. I have watched you for years and
your ministry is has been so encouraging. Two millions, perhaps
we should say billions of people, and I and so
honored to be able to pick your brain for several
minutes here. And you know, something I've never known about
(01:39):
you is your personal testimony. When did you come to
know the Lord? When did the Lord save you? Well?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I was born in New Zealand twice. First time was
way back nineteen forty nine, last century, just after the
Second World War. My mom was Jewish, she married a Gentile,
and because the Holocaust was still in their minds now,
they put me that's still my birth certificate rather than Jewish.
And so I was brought up without any Christian instruction whatsoever.
(02:06):
An aunt taught me the Lord's Prayer when I was
about ten, and I rattled that off as a sleeping
pill for about ten years, I guess. But at the
age of twenty I had an epiphany. I began to
realize as part of the Olderman statistic, ten out of
ten die dawn on me earlier on, just in the
back of my mind. As a kid, I used to
play wars with my friends and get shot. And I'd
(02:29):
roll down a hill, lay there for about five seconds
and get up, you know, to live again. And I
realized that the time is coming on I wouldn't get
up and live again. And so I became a Solomon,
very successful young businessman, own houseman, car a wife. The
age of twenty. Business is doing well. If someone says,
what do you do for a job, I said, I
mind my own business. What do you do? And I
(02:52):
became a Solomon. Everything just seemed vain. I looked him
away from thought she could be snatched from me by
death and I'd have nothing to live. And remember one night,
I just wept. Tears streamed down my face as I
thought about the futility of life and the reality of death,
and I just cried out why, not realizing I was
crying out to God, and he didn't enter my mind.
(03:13):
But about six months later I realized that God heard
that cry. And I was sitting on a surfing trip
at a table, and a Christian friend who had just
become a Christian, I left his Bible there and I
read the words of Jesus, who have heard it said
by them of old, you shall not commit adultery and
I thought to myself, well, I've never committed adultery. If
there's a heaven, I'll make it. And then I read
(03:34):
what came next. But I say to you, whoever looks
upon a woman to lust for her has committed adultery
already within his heart. And was like an arrow went
right into my chest, and I thought, a dead man.
God's seen my thought life. And it was the big revelation.
And for the first time ever, I was confronted with
my own sinfulness, burning with unlawful sexual desire like every
(03:58):
red blooded young guy. And that was the first time
I understood the Cross. Never understood the Cross, didn't have
a clue what it meant until I saw my sin.
And I got soundly saved that night. And yeah, I'll
share what happened. I became like a maniac because I'd
found the everlasting life. You know, I haven't didn't found
(04:20):
long life, it didn't find riches. I found something far
more valuable. And so I put a billboard with Bible
verses at the front of our home. I got a
printing press and put it in my home, began printing
gospel tracks. I purchased a thirty four seat a bus
and put scripture around the outside. Jesus said, I'm the way,
the truth in the life. The gift of God is
eternal life, and one foot professional sign writing. I gave
(04:43):
out tracks to any when I met. I'd put John
Chapter three, verses one to sixteen on the front window
of my business. And I got a soapbox and put
it in the heart of our city and began speaking
to the crowds there and did that almost every day
for twelve years. So if anyone could have been considered religious,
not in those days, it was me. Nowadays I'm much worse.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Amen and loving it that. That's uh, that actually explains
so much you were You were saved by coming to
an understanding of your own depravity. That was part of
your story, which is what is so important in your ministry.
There there you do not evangelize. You wouldn't evangelize without
making clear the person's own depravity and need for a savior.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Absolutely, And you know, Jesus said, he that's forgiven much
the same loves much my motivation for being zealous. Every
day I go to the local college twice a day
when it's not raining. It's raining today on my bike
with my dog on the platform. Both were in sunglasses
and best bait I've ever had. When fishing for men,
(05:50):
I can just sail up to complete strangers and they go, oh,
I love your dog, and girls when I write past
and woman call out how cute, and I call back,
so was the dog. And it's just such a wonderful
means of reaching the lost, and the motivation, the fuel
that motivates me is the high octane fuel of gratitude.
(06:12):
I cannot express to you how grateful I am that
God saved me from death and from hell. Thanks beyond
to God for the unspeakable gift. Like Paul, I cannot
even put into words how grateful I am. So what
I can't put into words I put into works. I
just want to please God with all my heart. I
want to reach the lost and with any way I can,
(06:32):
And so that's what I do. And I believe I'm
a normal biblical Christian when you read the Book of Acts,
I'm nothing special. Every corner they turned, they preached the
gospel peril of their own lives. So I thank God
that when God gave eternal life in the Upper Room,
when the Holy Spirit fell, they didn't carpet out the
upper room, didn't put an air conditioning with a little
(06:54):
notice out the side tonight seven o'clock, all welcome. No,
they went open air, went out to what they were
told to do, Go into all the world and preach
the Gospel of every creature. Let me share my knowledge
of Greek. You know, when Jesus said, go into all
the world and preach the Gospel of every creature, that
would go and the original Greek actually means go. When
(07:15):
he said preach into all the world the world, the
word all in the original Greek means all. And when
he said to every creature, that word every in the
Greek means every. So when Jesus said go into all
the world and preach the Gospel to every creature, what
he was saying to be true to the originalists, go
into all the world and preach the Gospel of every creature.
And I don't know how so many Christians can miss that.
(07:38):
We're so busy at the contemporary church doing everything but
what we've been told to do, and we must look
at the Book of Acts and say, this is our blueprint.
How far we've fallen.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
You know, you cause profound you're saying it's actually translated correctly.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yes, it's translated correctly cynicism, but yeah, we've missed it.
You look at the the Gospel of Luke, chapter fifteen.
How can anyone read Luke fifteen and not be just
transformed and know exactly what they're supposed to be doing.
You know, a shepherd left ninety nine sheep to go
and bring back one more joy in heaven over one
(08:15):
sinnate that comes to repentance. Lady lost one coin. She
swept the floor, she'd lit a candle, swept the floor,
and she'd diligently searched for it, and she led a candle.
And it seems most of the churches in the dark
when it comes to what we're here for. You know,
we need to sweep the floor, get rid of sin
in our lives, and get rid of anything that's hindering
us from doing the will of God, and then be
(08:36):
diligent in reaching out to the last, always a bounding
the work of the Lord, steadfast, unmovably. And then it
led up to the prodigal son. So we've got the sheep,
and then something more valuable, one valuable coin, and then
the value of a human being that was lost and
The thing that brought the prodigal son back to the
(08:57):
father was the knowledge that his desires were for filthy
pig food. And that was my revelation the night I
got seved. That's what got me saying, I've sinned against heaven,
and in your sight, make me your servant.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Amen. Amen. So when do you think was the first time.
Can you remember the first time you realized that riding
on a bike with a dog and was fruitful ministry
for you? Oh?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yes, I remember the very second it led up to it.
I'd go to Huntington Beach and I'd see some guy
come along with a great Dane and there's a crowd
around him. Instantly people said, oh, I love your dog.
And I thought, I'm going to get a great dane,
going to wreck my marriage. But I'm going to get
a great Dane because we've only got a small home
(09:39):
and it's going to cost a fortune to feed it
and then deposits on the lawn. Yeah, it's going to
be difficult to convince my wife. So I taught her
about it, and then I was going to work once
to our ministry and my dog was a poodle of
white Pool at that time. Oh, it was a bijon
sorry ran alongside, and when he was younger, he had
no problem. At this day he was getting older and
(10:00):
I could hear him panting, and then he got tired
or and tired. It was only a mile, so I
picked him up and I carried him as I rode
that bike, pedaled the bike, and he absolutely loved it.
So I thought, oh, I'm going to make a little
frame for him to sit on, and I put him on.
I'm gonna put sunglasses on him to make him look cool,
like I lot, because this is southern California. And so
(10:21):
I took him out the first time, and people came
out of their houses as I went past and yelled
out and said, how I need how cute can I
take a photo? And I realized I wasn't the size
of the dog in the battle. It was the cuteness
of the dog wearing sunglasses. And so I've now go
now got another dog. The other one passed on wherever
(10:44):
they go to, and I've got one Lucy. She's really
really cute, and she's she's learned how to wear the
sunglasses and like I said, it's the greatest greatest tool
I have. And fishing for me in the greatest bait
that I have. In fact, I encourage people, if you
want to share your faith, go for a walk around
(11:05):
the block with your dog, and that dog will give
you instant rapport with dog lovers and almost everybody loves dogs.
If you want to put it on steroids, put sunglasses
on the dock and that'll get strangers coming up and
saying wow. And we've got tracks, dog tracks that people
can get. We've even got a dog box it's called
the dog box with sunglasses in it, with the elastic
(11:26):
in the right place and how to do it, and
a little books on dogs. So I think we're sold
to something like three or four hundred. So there's three
or four hundred dogs with sunglasses on walking around America
and getting the gospel of the hands of strangers.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
You've done this thousands and thousands of times what you're describing,
and I would imagine that many of them are not
on camera, and the public doesn't see the majority of
what you do. You started doing that later, you started
taking a camera. I'm assuming and thinking I should show
people this, should do something with these encounters and make
(12:03):
them public.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, what happened the first time was Jewish voice or
a Christian radio program. They, knowing my Jewish background, got
me on their program and they said, can we send
a camera crew across camera crew a cross. That's not
easy to say, to film you witnessing to people. So
we went to Hollywood and then we went to Seal
Beach and I got a great interview this is nineteen
(12:25):
ninety nine of a young guy who was very repentant.
Start off a little arrogant and became repentant. They had
a big, huge, sixteen millimeters camera and for years, when
I understood the purpose of God's Lord to bring the
knowledge of sin, and I'd see people come under conviction,
I thought, I wish I could film this and show
people what's happening. So I actually got some footage, and
(12:45):
that's what started off start us off on. When YouTube started,
I immediately put a video up there. And we've got three
thousand videos a now and something like our channels have
got over four hundred million you. So we're we're an
awe at this incredible medium. The Apostle Paul would be
(13:05):
green with righteous envy at what we've got. I mean,
he wanted to get our message out to the Galatians,
you'd get someone I think you dictated and the hand
deliver it. Well, we have with a push of a button,
we get instantly the Gospel to literally millions all around
the world. So I am awestruck and humbled and so
(13:29):
grateful that I was born at this day and age.
I'm seventy five. I'll be lucky to finish finish this interview.
But to understand, you know, people often say in interviews,
do you have any final words? And I said, that
means more to me than what you think it means. Yeah,
be careful that, yeah, I have any final words. But yeah,
I'm just so thrilled that I scraped in on this
(13:49):
whole wave of modern technology or the iPhone, and with
with Max, I do the editing myself. Where our YouTube
videos in the night. Still, yeah, we've got We've got
professional guys paid here in our studio to do editing.
And they use final cut pro. I don't know if
(14:10):
you know when that is a professional one. I use iMovie.
I call what they do final cut slow because I
can do in ten minutes what takes them two hours.
Because iMovie is made for dummies, and it's just wonderful
and so I go out to local college film people,
and then I can get it up on shorts or
(14:31):
on our channel, one of our channels within an hour,
within two hours with the music and the entro and everything.
So it's just just wonderful to have access to this technology.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Amen, you were savvy for seventy five. That's incredible. Thank you.
So there is a there is a specific order, There
is something you do in these conversations, and I think
it would be helpful to discuss maybe how the evolution
of how you discovered your the conversation and where do
(15:04):
you start. You start with a dog that gets the
attention of the person. Where is the first time you
bring up a faith or religious aspect to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, I've got two prongs to my fault or two
strings to my bow, whatever one you want, Okay. The
first one is the knowledge that God has placed eternity
on the heart of every human being. We're not dogs, horses, cats,
or cows. We're human beings made in the image of God.
And so deep within the heart of every human being
is something that says, oh, I don't want to die.
(15:37):
But it goes deeper than that. Hebrews two verse fourteen
and fifteen says and this is from the amplified Bible,
so quote it a little louder and says, every human
being is haunted by the fear of death all their lifetime.
So I have that knowledge. So what I do is
I go zooming in people come up, students, love your
dog and say, YouTube channel one point six million subscribers,
(16:01):
would you like to go on YouTube? I don't know.
So I'm gonna ask you if you think there's life
after death? Do you think there's life after death? And
I say I don't know, So what's your name? And
he says Eric? So Eric, let's do it. It's not life,
and I'll help you.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
He says, Okay, do with me, Ray, do it with me.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I'll be Eric. Okay, Eric, No, it's not gonna work.
It's not gonna work. I've got to share something important. No,
it's not gonna work because they've got to explain something
important and you won't. You won't say what I want
you to say. So Eric says this, I say it, Okay,
let's go. Can I permission interview for YouTube and or
media purpose? He says sure. First question I ask Eric,
(16:39):
is you're afraid to die, and Eric says a little bit.
I say a little bit, Are you kidding? Someone's gonna
bury you in a box six feet under the ground.
Everything within you should be repulsed, everything within you should
be saying, is there a way past this? This thing
called death? And I watch his eyes and I can
(17:02):
see what he's thinking. He's thinking, how does this guy
know I haven't told mum or Dad, my brother, or
my sister, my girlfriend or my boyfriend. I haven't told
anyone that I'm terrified of dying. But it takes my
breath away. And I know he's haunted by this fear
of death. So this is what I do. I said,
do you ever read the Bible? And he says, oh no.
(17:23):
I said, you know, it's the world's biggest seller of
all time. And the Old Testament God promised he would
destroy death. And in the New Testament we're told, Harry
did it? Did you know that? And Eric says no,
Say would you like to hear about that? Now? Who's
going to say no to that? Even atheists will say, yeah,
tell me, tell me about it. Why? Because in the
(17:44):
heart they're crying out to be released from this terror,
of this horror, this haunting fear of death that they have.
And so I explained to them why they die. I said,
do you know why the Bible says we die? And
they say no. And this is the thing that just
opens the heart. I say, oh, the Bible says the
wages of sin is death. Death is wages that God
(18:04):
is paying you in. It's like a judge who has
a criminal in front of him who's committed murder, but
he thinks he's a good person. The judge says, I'm
going to show you how serious a crime is. I'm
giving you the death sentence. This is your wages. This
is what you've earned. And Eric, sin is so serious
to or a holy God, He's given you the death sentence.
You're on death row. You're in a holding cell. Nice
(18:26):
blue roof, good ee conditioning, good lighting, but this life
is a holding cell and your death will be evidence
to you that God is deadly serious about sin. I say, Eric,
here's the question. Do you think God has justified to
put you to death for your sins? Or are you
a good person? And he says I'm pretty good person.
I said, well, I'm going to see if I can
(18:47):
change your mind. I'm going to be the prosecutor, you
be the defendant, and I'm going to see if you're
guilty or innocent. That's your plea. Let's go ten commandments.
How many lies have you told? He ever stolen something?
Ever used God's name in vain? And they say, yes,
I've used God's name vain. But of a Habit said,
you know you've taken the holy name of God God.
You Jews won't even speak it or write it down.
It's so holy, and you've used it as a cussword. Eric,
(19:09):
that's blasphemy. Would you do that with your mother's name?
And Eric says, I wouldn't do that because your respect
her be don't respect the God that gave you a mother.
And it brings us sobriety and brings the knowledge of
sin and prepares the heart for grace. It shows them
the disease so they can appreciate and appropriate the cure
of the Gospel. And it's very simple, and it's based
on what Jesus did with the rich young ruler. It's
(19:32):
based on what Paul did in Romans. To you who
say you shall not steal, do you steal? You say
you shall not commit adultery? To you commit adultery. What's
he doing. He's appealing to the work of the Lord.
Written on the heart the conscience bearing witness, say to evolutionists,
so you believe in evolution, Yeah, why did evolution write
a conscience deep within your heart that agrees with all
(19:52):
the ten commandments? Why did evolution do that? You shall
not steal, shall not lie, shall not commit adultery, shall
not take God's name in vain? Why did evolution and
put that on your heart? And you can't even get
rid of it. It's so strong, So donnah, it's God's
God's given that to you, and you know right from wrong.
And that's the first that's the first prong to the fore,
(20:12):
and the second one will strength of the bow. The
second one is the knowledge that he has a conscience
and he has this will to live. And the conscience
is just so powerful. It's like Lazarus. You just say,
come fourth, and that which stunk actually comes forth. The
conscience is still there. It's been just seared, like the
(20:32):
Bible says, when you see a re stake, you don't
cook it all the way through, just to each side.
That and when you take the sharp scalpel of God's
law and cut it into the conscience. It comes alive,
it does its duty. It's an impartial judge on the
courtn of the mine. So one moment, you've got someone
who's denying everything that you're saying, because this carnal mind
(20:54):
is in a state of enmity towards God. It's not
subject to the law of God, and even he can
be But when you go to the con the conscience
begins to be a witness, and you find someone who
was contentious two minutes ago was actually subconsciously nodding an
affirmation that the commandments are true. So they are the
two strings, the knowledge that everyone has a will to
(21:16):
live and the conscience using the Lord dister of the conscience.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
So how long did it take you to kind of
put together this very specific we'll call it a liturgy.
I mean, it's it's very ordered and very well structured
and very biblical. Did it take you longer? Was this
something that just came to you?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Well, it came to me after a long time, as
very frustrated. I wrote a book called Evangelical Frustration. It's
now called Hell's Best cap Secret. That's the name of
the teaching, but it was originally called evangelical frustration. And
I suffer from that disease because I was an assistant
pastor and I saw statistics for a local church that
(21:56):
ninety percent of our decisions fell away. Excuse me, I've
got a frog in my throat, trying to evolve in
a tadpole. Trynt to evolve in a frog. And I
was frustrated, and an itinerant ministry opened up, and I
found that everywhere I went, from large churches to smaller
churches to big crusades, had this full away rate of
(22:17):
eighty to ninety percent. And I thought, man, if you
go fishing a ninety percent of your fish get away,
something wrong with your net. It's too big, too many
holes in it. And one Friday afternoon, while suffering from
the disease, I read a portion of sermon by Charles Spurgeon,
and he said this, what will you do when the
law comes in terror, when the trumpet of the archangel
(22:39):
shall tear your way, terar its way into your guilty soul,
when the book shall be open and all your sin
and shame shall be punished? Can you stand against against
an angry law? In that day? And I remember looking
at that and thinking, oh, that's a little different from
God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.
Right the what is Spurgeon doing. He is using the law.
(23:00):
I'm making sinners tremble. That was on a Friday night,
Sunday morning. I was about one hundred miles away waiting
to speak in a very small Presbyterian church. And I
was in a room and I opened my Bible and
I Regulatians three twenty four. Wherefore the law was our
schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. And I thought, oh, yeah,
(23:21):
a law was a schoolmaster to bring Israel to Christ.
And I thought, no, it doesn't say that. He said us.
I thought, is it legitimate as Spurgeon was doing, to
use the law the ten Commandments to bring the knowledge
of sin. So remember I had some time was they
had some thermal pools in this small town. Shut my
Bible ran to these thermal poles, sat into it, and
(23:42):
I determined to witness the next person who came into
the pool. Big guy sat next to me, and so
instead of saying and Jesus came into my heart and
filled the god chap vacuum, and I found peace, love,
joy fulfillment, and life just became perfect with no problems.
When I gave my heart to Jesus. Instead of saying that,
I went through the Ten Commandments and talked about judgment
Day and the reality of hell. And this guy, I'll
(24:05):
never forget it, stood to his feet and it was
a very cold day and he was steaming. That's why
I remember it. And he said, I've never heard that
put so clearly in all my life. And he just
walked off. And it was like a light bulb went
off on my head, because one went off on hint
his head. Because the Commandment is a lamp and the
Law is light. It brings the knowledge of sin. It's
(24:27):
a schoolmasters bring us to Christ. So I thought, I wonder,
So I went to a Christian bookstore and I began
grabbing Wesley Moody Whitfield and just checking out different areas
in these books. And when I found a chapter that
I thought, this could tell me. Everywhere I read, these
great preachers said, if you do not use the law
to bring the knowledge of sin, you will fill the
(24:49):
church with false converts. And it's exactly what's happened. We're
forsaken God's law and its capacity to bring the knowledge
of sin and show us a need of a savior.
And instead of causing people to tremble, that's sinning against
God and fleeing to the cross. We've upheld Jesus or fiction, marriage,
a drug problem, alcohol problem. So people come experimentally to
(25:11):
find if Jesus fixes everything, and when he doesn't, we
get instead tribulation, temptation, and persecution. They fall away and
their ladder in becomes worse than the first. So we've
got masses of not any false converts in the church.
We've got millions who have been inoculated by another gospel.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
The Puritans knew that the Puritan they preached that Spurgeon
was born too late, but he was a lost Puritan,
but he understood exactly what they meant. And this is
the hinge to your ministry. This starting with the sin,
bringing magnifying the guilt of the person under a holy
God is the hinge to your ministry. That's what you
(25:52):
have done from the beginning, and that's what sets you apart.
And that's also what is so different. You know, we
see online ministries, you know, there's millions of them. Before
this this conversation with you, I was reviewing one in particular,
there's a there's a young guy very popular on YouTube shorts.
And he goes and he goes into the streets and
(26:15):
and he says, he says his testimony exactly like you
just articulated what you just said, that that would be
the wrong thing to do. He goes and he says,
I was I was searching for something. I had a
god size hole in my heart, and the Lord came
to me in in a very profound way. And now
(26:37):
I'm here to tell you that you could have that
same thing. Because God loves you and you might have
to pray for you. And this is his prayer. This
is what's interesting, and I wanted to talk to you
about it, he says. He says, God, this, this guy,
we'll call him Tom, Tom is searching for you. Will you, Jesus,
will you present yourself to him in dreams and visions
(26:59):
so that he knows you. Amen? And that's that's the
end of the prayer. And that's the end of the clip.
And it gets millions of Yews. People love that idea,
but it is not the scalpel you were talking about
that cuts through the heart.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, think of Nathan with David. Nathan said David man
stolen another man's lamb, killed it. And David stood on
his high throne and self righteousness and said that man
on a store fourfold and he will die. And then
Nathan said, you are the man. Why have you despised
the commandment of the Lord. And then David cried, I've
(27:36):
sinned against God. And then we have the penitent prayer
of some fifty one. Have mercy upon me, O, God,
according to loving kindness, according to the multitude of your
tender mercies, blot out my transgressions against you. And you
only have I sinned and done this evil in your sight?
Nathan didn't talk to David about a wonderful plan. When
you're committed adultery and murder, what's that? What's that got
(27:59):
to do with anything? What a misrepresentation. And we have
multitudes in our nation that commit adultery and hate people,
and even murder, and filled with lustin and fornication and blasphemy.
And they need to be confronted with God's law or
they will have a false conversion. Think of the prodigal son.
What was it that sent him back to his father?
(28:21):
As I said before, it was the knowledge that he
was desiring pig food. That's what made him say, whips,
we've lost the picture. You're still there.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I'm so here good.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
My picture just disappeared, so let me pick it up.
Because it was so important. It was the knowledge that
his desire was for pig food, and it was my
knowledge that I had desires that were unclean. All is
an unclean thing. But what modern evangelism does is it
doesn't take the prodigal son and show him his desires
(28:54):
are unclean. Instead, it circumnavigates that. So the prodigal goes
back to the father. Instead of saying I've sinned against heaven,
and in your sight make me a servant, he goes
back to the Father and says, I've run out of money.
You be my servant. And that's what happens with a
prosperity doctrine. They don't this whole prosperity thing. What they
(29:18):
say doesn't bother me. It's what they don't say.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
All these exactly creatures.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
They don't talk about sin, righteousness, and judgment. They talk
about everything else except the cross Christ crucified for sinners.
And so people make decisions and God becomes their servant.
I've run out of money. You be my servant, You
supply my needs, You make me win the sport. And
it doesn't work like that. God doesn't come running when
(29:44):
we click our fingers. He's not a divine butler. I mean,
just go back. We're talking about a hinge. I ask people,
and quite often I say and ask even sinners. If
you're a doctor and you're a patient in front of
you who was incredibly well looking, head of physique like mine.
He went to the gym every day. He looked incredibly healthy.
(30:06):
But you know better because you've seen X rays. He's
going to be dead in two weeks because you know
there's a cancerous disease seeping through his body. You've got
a cure in your pocket. Do you give him the
cure or do you show him the X rays? And
a lot of people say, ah, just give him the cure.
I said, that's not going to work, and they say
why because he thinks he's well. He's gonna say, doc,
(30:27):
what's this? Look at me, look at my physique. I'm
go to the gym every morning. What are you talking about?
He's not going to want a cure what he hasn't
seen his disease. Doctor, knows what he's doing. He's going
to point to the point, to the X rays and
he's going to show this poison seeping through the system,
and he's going to make him tremble to a point
where he says, Wow, Doc, this is serious. What should
(30:49):
I do? Now? He's ready for the cure. Now he'll
appreciate it and appropriate it because he's seen as disease.
And now he'll appreciate and understand the cure. And so
that's the essence of what I do and what Jesus did.
As we just show sinners the X rays of the commandments.
The God requires truth in the inward partsaw that the
(31:11):
law is spiritual. And my aim is to give the
Philippian jailer this personal earthquake. I want to make Felix
tremble to a point where you'll say, Wow, this is serious.
What must I do to be saved? And the modern
Church doesn't do that because they don't see fear as
(31:31):
being beneficial. The fear of the Lord is the beginning
of wisdom. Scripture says, through the fear of the Lord,
men depart from evil. And when people don't fear God,
they'll not depart from evil. They'll cling to their sins
and profess to be Christians and don't depart from iniquity
as what they should, and then they don't bring forth
fruit worthy of repentance.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Amen. And when you say modern church, that's not all encompassing,
because there are still some.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yes, absolutely, we'll give this.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
So if that's the hinge, we've we've walked through exactly
what you do, that is the hinge. But as that
door of that hinge swings open, then it is then
when you present the gospel. And when you present the
gospel it is not merely Jesus loves you. That's the
end of the story. It is a gospel of substitutionary atonement.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
And so then now as the door swings open with
your hinge of exposing the sin, now tell us what
the next step is. As the door swings open.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah, Jesus loves you is not biblical. People are quick
to say, yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
It's not.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
It's not found a scripture. Want find anyone using the
phrase Jesus loves you. In fact, whenever the love of
God is presented, almost always, it's always in direct correlation
to the cross. Herein is love, not that we love God.
But then he loved us and sin his son to
be a substitute or propitiation for us sins. God so
(33:00):
loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.
I'm crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live yet not I,
but Christ lives in me. And the love and the
love of God to have, however that ends seventy five,
Give me a break the love by that God who
loved me and gave himself for me. Paul says, he
(33:21):
loved me and gave himself me, pointing to the cross.
And so what I want to do is necessitate the cross.
It's like being in a plane and you've got a
guy who's sitting there and he has no concern that
he has to jump out of the plane because he's
enjoying a good movie and he's eating good food. He's
enjoying the flight. But you know the plane's going to crash.
(33:43):
He doesn't know that. He doesn't even think about putting
on a parachute. So the best thing I can do
for this person is to say, could you just stop
eating from it? And I want you to look down. This
plane's going to crash, and I want you to think
about hitting the ground at one hundred and twenty miles
an hour. That's going to be terrifying. In fact, I'm
going to hang you out the plane by your ankles
for two seconds. When you come back in, fear is
(34:04):
going to kick in and do you a favor. Fear
is going to be your friend, not your enemy, because
it's going to make you put on a parachute. And
what I tell sinn is is I've tried to put
the fear of God in you today, hoping you'll see
that fear is your friend, not your enemy, because it'll
make you serious with the God that gave you life.
And people suddenly say, yeah, I am feeling scared. My
(34:28):
mouth did go dry, I did quiver on the lip.
And I said, well, listen to that fear. It's God given,
it's your will to live, and you need a fleet
of Jesus Christ. And you know, I've got someone and
going to call me up and do an interview on miracles.
And I'm a little nervous because I believe in healing.
You know, someone's sick, I'll pray for them. Someone says
I've got cancer, I'll pray for you every night. And
(34:50):
I'm believing for God to do a miracle, but I
don't see too many of them. However, there is a
miracle that every human being can have. And remember the
Pharisees came to Jesus and said, show us a sign.
And Jesus said, no sign shall be given to this
adulterous and evil generation. But the sign of Jonah, as
Jonah was in the fish for three days, three nights,
(35:13):
social and son a man be in the heart of
the earth. So that's a direct point to the gospel.
Jesus is liking Jonah to the gospel. And that's the
sign that's given. And that's the miracle that God offers
human beings. He will take a heart of stone, give
you a heart of flesh. He'll open the eyes of
your understanding. He'll take out of darkness and de light,
(35:33):
out of death into life. He will so radically change
you on the inside and make you a new creation
that all things will pass away, all things will become you,
and you'll suddenly get a love for righteousness, a consciousness
of God's presence, and a love for his word. And
I look back, and this is my own personal miracle.
And this is what God offers every sinner. I had
(35:56):
no serious thought about God for twenty two years as
a non crest. I can say I don't think I
gave God ten seconds serious thought, even though I used
to pray the Lord's prayer every night. But the moment
I was saved, the moment I was born again, everything
within me you wanted to please the God that gave
me life. And it's now been fifty something years, and
(36:17):
there wouldn't be ten minutes when I didn't think about
the Lord and what he wants me to do, and
the lost and the Howl, and the Bible and his promises.
It wasn't something I instigated. It was something that God
did within me. And that's our own personal miracle that
God gives everyone that comes to Christ. And I love
what someone once said, the man with an experience is
(36:39):
not at the mercy of a man with an argument.
If you know you're born again, you know you pass
from death to life. I don't care what anyone says,
even if they find the bones of Jesus in Jerusalem,
that doesn't deter me one second. I don't doubt my savior.
If someone comes up to me of the trailer oad
of diamonds and says swap before you've got in. Christ,
absolutely not take a hike, because I've found something more
(37:02):
precious than all the gold in the world.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
So ray, what was the name of the hypothetical man
we were working with here? Eric? Eric? Okay? So Eric,
Eric is now on the airplane. You have interrupted his
fine meal in first class and you have told him
you better look out the window because there is smoke
coming out of the wings. This plane is going down.
That's what you've done at the beginning of the conversation
(37:28):
with Eric. And then as he realizes, oh wow, you're right.
As much as I want to deny it, I do
see now that this plane is going down. So how
do you then offer Eric the parachute? Let's go hypothetical back.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Okay, back to Eric. I want him to put on
the Lord Jesus Christ. I want him to put on
the parachute. So what I do is I say, now,
you're under God's wrath. You're hitting for hell. You know that.
What did God?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
You've actually asked him that too. You said Heaven or
Hell after you?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Because I'm the prosecutor, he's defenders. How do you plead
guilty or in guilty Heaven or Hell? And they'll say hell.
Often they'll say hell because they can't. They can't say
I'm going to heaven. And the Bible says all liars
of the part in the lake of fire. And so
I say, what did God do for guilty sinners so
he wouldn't have to go to hell? And the answer
(38:23):
comes back, Jesus died on the cross. And this is
what I ask in us, especially with Catholics, I say,
what does that mean? Here you are under God's wrath
heading for hell. How can the death of Jesus two
thousand years ago help you? And they go quiet and say, well,
(38:45):
he set as an example of how we should live
when we're persecuted. That's their understanding of the cross. The
God of this world has blinded the minds of them
that believe, not least the light of the glorious Gospel
should shine under them. I say no, no, I said,
let me tell you what God. And I said, and
I say, Eric, if you can get a grip of this,
it's going to change everything for you. So don't let
(39:07):
anything distract you. And the reason I say that is
that's when distractions come from all over the place. Normally,
people button, someone play guitar beside us. A guy come
up with a bike and ring the balon, just things
like that. So I said, don't And if he gets distracted,
I say, remember what I said, don't let anyone to
distract you. And I say this, it's as simple as this, Eric,
you and I broke God's law. Jesus paid the fine.
(39:31):
That's what happened on that cross. We broke the law.
He paid the fine. That's why he cried out, it
is finished. Just before he died, he was saying, paid
in full. And this is the kicker. This is what
opens the understanding. I said, if you're in court and
you've got speeding fines and you plead guilty, a judge
(39:51):
will let you go if someone pays those fines. He says, Eric,
you're guilty, but you can go because someone paid your fine.
And I say, and it's legal. God, Eric can legally
take death off you. Or because Jesus paid the fine
and it's legal. And then he rose from the dead
(40:12):
and defeated death. And if you'll simply repent of your sins,
and you'll never do that while you think you're a
good person, But today we've looked at what sin is
and put your trust in Jesus. God promises he'll grant
you ever lasting life as a free gift, not because
you're good, but because He's good and kind and rich
in mercy. And then I say, does that make sense?
Or do you understand what I'm saying? Why? Because that's
(40:34):
what Philip said to the Ethiopian Eunich. Do you understand why?
Because the good soiler hero and the peril of the
sower hears and understands. What is it that brings understanding
the schoolmaster? The law brings the knowledge of sin. The
commandment is a lamp, and the law is light. And
Eric will say, yeah, I've never heard it put like
(40:56):
that before. So Eric, I didn't say Siri, I said, Eric,
crazy woman, modern technology, hahuh? Poor. We want to how
many marriages have been wrecked by that woman? So anyway, Eric,
(41:21):
I say, Eric, when are you going to repent? Now?
I'm not getting a decision from him. I'm not going
to lead him in a sinner's prayer because it's not biblical.
I say, Eric, when you're going to repent and put
your trust in Jesus rather than in your own goodness?
I want to bring him to a point of alarm.
I don't want him to just be awakened. It's like
a man who's lying in bed and his house is
on fire. I don't want him to just be awakened,
(41:43):
Oh yeah, my house is on fire.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
No.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
No, I want to be alarmed and run out. And
that's what I want to bring Eric from being awakened
what he has meant to being alarmed. And so I
say to him, when you're going to saist soon? I said,
that's what the devil would want you to say, because
you could die to night in your sleep. You could
have an aneurysm in your sleep, you could to have
a heart attack. A lot of people die young. Fifty
four million people die every year, fifty four million, and
(42:08):
a lot of young people. That widens his eyes. I'm saying, Eric,
I'm trying to I'm trying to get you to wake
up and realize today is damn salvation. Do you hear
what I'm saying? He says, yeah, I do. Can you
see this urgency? He says, yeah? So can you hear
my tone? Why am I talking to you like this?
It's because I really do love you, and I know
what I'm saying is true. This is a life and
(42:28):
death issue yours. And Eric says, yeah, I said, can
I pray for you? No sinners prayer? I just want
to pray for him.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Can can you unpack that really quickly for people? Why
you say the sinners not the sinners prayer? That is unbiblical?
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah? The analogy I use and the sinner is prayer.
Let me let you know what some people think. It's
the guy that cried out, God, be merciful to me,
a sinner that Jesus spoken right now. That's not the
sinnes preer. The sinners prayer is the modern method of
getting a decision for Christ, where you have everybody close
their eyes and bow their heads. You play music to
(43:04):
stir with their emotions. You build your church with a
floor sloping towards the front, and then with every head
bowed and eye closed, nobody is watching, you just raise
your hand to give your heart to Jesus. Ah, I
saw that hand, and then you get everybody to stand,
and then those that raise their hands that come forward
with the music playing, there's no knowledge of sin, there's
(43:24):
no trembling, there's no fear of God, there's no preaching
of the law it's just there's something missing in your life.
Give your heart to Jesus. And they've got decisions. They
feel that decision cards someone prais the sinner's prayer with
them when they say, repeat after me, God forgive me.
I'm a sinner. I give my life to Jesus today.
Ah Man, that sort of thing a little bit longer
than that, that's called the.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Ten years later in sin. Ten years later and someone
says you need to know Jesus, and they go, I've
done that.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
I've done that. I've done that.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
I've done it.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
I made by decision. So the analogy I use is this,
a man has committed adultery on his wife. She's willing
to take him back. So I say to him, Eric,
that's Eric again. Eric, I'll come with you. Door opens,
it's the wife and I say, this is Eric. You
know him. He's your husband that committed adultery. He's wanting
(44:15):
to come back. So he's got an apology for you.
So here we go. Eric, repeat this apology to your
wife after me, dear wife, dear wife, I'm really sorry
for committing adultery. That's crazy. She's gonna slam the door
and say it does make sense. What are you doing?
She isn't interested in his words. She wants him to
be sincere from his heart, just say I'm so sorry
(44:39):
I send against you, and please forgive me. That sort
of thing. And so when we lead sinners in that
sinner's prayer, it's ridiculous. Nathan didn't lead David in the
prayer of Psalm fifty one. It's spilt from his heart.
And so that method is filled the church with false converts.
And what they have to do is they have to
follow them up. I've got your decision cards, you know
(45:01):
the person, you know where they live, and so you
got knock on the door. They don't want to know you.
They're hiding in the closet. Most of those people don't
know what they did anyway, and that's why they lose
so many converts and follow up. It's not even biblical.
The Ethiopian eunuch was left without follow up. Philip the
evangelist left them in the desert. You say, oh, how
(45:21):
could he survive? All he had was God and the scriptures. No,
he is able to keep them from falling and present
them faultless before the presence of his glory of exceeding joy.
He's able to save to the uttermost them that come
to God by Him. So my knowledge that salvation has
got nothing to do with me. Salvation is the Lord God.
(45:42):
They're born of God. I don't want to mess it up.
And so all I'm doing is planting seed. And I
plant seed in my garden. I don't make it grow.
I plant seed and sometimes I pluck fruit, and so
I plant seed. That's all I'm doing when I share
the gospel with people's planting seed. And God gets the increase.
He that sows us nothing, that reaches nothing, but it's
God that gives the increase. So that's the biblical evangelism.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
And then what's your what's your prayer for Eric? At
the end, I've I've heard this many times, but I
want I want people to hear oh as the prayer saying,
Jesus reveal yourself in dreams and visions to Eric.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
No no, I say, I enter his gates with thanksgiving.
I say, Eric, le spray and let me tell you something.
This is a confession, and I don't know how to
fix it. On a YouTube channel, we find that people
write Eric took his hat off when you prayed. I
was so moved by that was brought to tears this generation.
Oh they're not as bad as I thought. What they
(46:37):
don't realize is that off camera' said take your hat off,
we're going to pray.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
That's a good confession. I like you.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, And so Eric takes his head off, and I
don't leave in me saying take your head off, because
we're going to pray. And so I pray. Like this
interest gates with thanksgiving, Father, thank you for Eric in
his open heart today. I pray that he will catch
a glimp of his own sinfulness and tremble at the
thought of sinning against a holy God. And yet at
(47:05):
the same time, may he catch a glimpse of your
love expressed in the cross that Christ died for us
while we yet sinners. I pray this day he will
truly repent, be genuinely sorry, be born again, be given
a new heart with new desires and a love of righteousness,
all because of your amazing grace and Jesus name me pray.
That's the essence of what I pray, and that's my
(47:27):
genuine hope. And prayer is very powerful. I remember once
this guy was in he said, I used to be
an annoying atheist. It's a beautiful interview. It's one of
my favorites. Very colorful guy. And we went back and
forth and he was so open. I said, can I
pray with you? He said sure, And so I prayed
(47:49):
when very very short prayer, and I just said in
Jesus name, Amen, and this x annoying atheist just went
whoa like that And it was nothing, And yet something happened.
In a month later, he came up to me holding
a Bible. He said, He's real. God is real. I said,
thank you so much. And it was just so neat
(48:11):
to see a little bit of fruit or something like that.
So when we pray it in the name of Jesus,
something happens in the heavenly So wow. We should never
demean prayer or say it's just a prayer. It's moving
the hand of God to touch the life of a sinner.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Ray, can I tell you a story of a true eric. Yeah,
this is in my church, a dear brother of mine
in the church. Remember with me. I said, Hey, I'm
going to have Ray Comfort on the show coming up.
Do you are you a fan of Ray? And he said,
am I a fan? The Lord used a Ray comfort
(48:47):
video to save me. Well, I said, wow, I said,
I said, brother, would you mind writing that a short
testimony and I'll actually read it on the show with him.
He said yes, So this is what he said. I said,
tell me the story. He said, Well, I was drunk
in despair over my chief idol, broken as a man,
at the end of myself, my marriage failing, stuck drinking
(49:12):
and listening to my algorithm of echo chamber conservative voices
of hope over societal rejection of policing. He's a police officer,
that which I held dearest, in which I found my
own self righteousness. Somehow God put religious content into the
mix one day while I was searching for the bottom
(49:33):
of the Internet, and when I got a glimpse of
my own sin, when I heard Ray share with similar
self righteous people without a view of their own depravity,
I finally understood my need for Christ and the cross.
Epiphany does the moment injustice I was reborn love for
(49:55):
God and what he had done filled me. Says this.
The crazy thing is I didn't know and expect God
to rebuild my marriage and reorganize all our priorities. I
actually had accepted that God's will may include my wife
and I separating if we could not unify with God first.
(50:17):
But God was very very kind to us. So beautiful.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
That's give me goose bumps. That's so encouraging. Well, praise
the Lord, Thank you for sharing that. Please give him
my love, and I'd like to get his address and
send something to him from the ministry after these interviews finished.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
He would love that. You know. I want to end
too by saying that I'm a big fan of the tracks,
the Living Water tracks, especially the round to It. This
one sticks out to me. It is for everyone listening.
It is a circle and it says this is a
round to it, and in the back it says you've
pacified your conscience by saying you would get right with God,
(50:58):
your creator someday when you get around to it. Well,
now you have one. And then the gospel's presented here.
And then surprisingly, when I traveled to different countries, I'm
usually surprised at which tracks gain attention, and this one
in particular really does. It's a oh one dollar bill
(51:23):
with the gospel on the back that you could find
at Living Waters on the website, and I have seen
people react in crazy ways internationally with this there was
a guy in the West Bank of Israel and he
owned a sandwich shop, and he loved this so much.
He put it with the gospel facing out right above
(51:44):
the cash register, tinned it to the wall. He thought
that was the neatest thing ever.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
And he was, Oh, that's so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
He's a Muslim.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, wow, well, yeah, that's a good one to go
out and said, you have change for a big bill.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yes, that's wonderful. I love that.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
I've got a trump track that's just come out. It's
a we car, a patriotic tract, and an Elon Musk
million dollar bill. And for people who may be concerned
that we're getting political, we had an oboma a million
dollar bill some years ago. Sure, so we can head
it down the middle. Paul became all things to all men.
He quoted ungodly Greek poets in Athens as a springboard
(52:27):
for the Gospel, and we similarly do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
That's amazing. Well, brother, thank you so much for your
time and your wisdom. So many have learned from you
over the years, including myself, and thank you for your
clarity in the Lord's work in your life. It's been
an honor to.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Speak with you can I give our website.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
You could give everything that we need to know.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
People can listen to Hell's Best Kept Secret at the
bottom of Livingwaters dot com and True and False Conversion,
which is the essence of the teaching that we've shared today.
And there's a lot of free stuff letter and the
YouTube channel is Ray Comfort YouTube or Living Waters YouTube,
and we really appreciate people sharing those and being equipped.
(53:10):
That's one thing that's just thrilled me is that people
write and say I'm now no longer intimidated by atheists
because they can see how simple it is to talk
to an atheist because their foolnesses of the Bible says.
So it's encouraging to know people are being equipped by
a YouTube channel.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Amen, they sure are. Well, thank you, brother, thank you
for your time.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
Well, thank you, it's been a great interview.
Boy, No, you can tell when someone's in the counter
in front of your takest thing. I had someone the
other day just there wasn't a back road, it wasn't
like dangerous or on a freeway or anything. But I
could just tell them all over the side, then that side,
and looking down, I felt like honk in my horn,
but I might get shot.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I didn't know you had a horn on that bicycle.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Right, I actually do. Almost got killed because of it,
very close to getting killed because of that horn.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
So for people listening right now, oh well you recording recording,
by the way, I prefer sometimes I prefer to start
it more natural.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yeah, it really isn't natural.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
So there. You know, you could approach the average person,
the average Christian, and you could say Ray Comfort. They
may or may not know the name Ray Comfort, and
they may or may not know the name Living Waters.
You know. The people that are in the nose certainly do.
But as soon as you say bicycle, he says, have
(01:04):
you ever told a lie in her life? And they go, oh,
I got it.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
You got to throw that guy good looking, You got
to throw that on the extremely handsome yet hit right.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
It's such an honor to have you, sir, thank you
for being on. I have watched you for years and
your ministry is has been so encouraging. Two millions, perhaps
we should say billions of people, and I and so
honored to be able to pick your brain for several
minutes here. And you know, something I've never known about
(01:39):
you is your personal testimony. When did you come to
know the Lord? When did the Lord save you? Well?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I was born in New Zealand twice. First time was
way back nineteen forty nine, last century, just after the
Second World War. My mom was Jewish, she married a Gentile,
and because the Holocaust was still in their minds now,
they put me that's still my birth certificate rather than Jewish.
And so I was brought up without any Christian instruction whatsoever.
(02:06):
An aunt taught me the Lord's Prayer when I was
about ten, and I rattled that off as a sleeping
pill for about ten years, I guess. But at the
age of twenty I had an epiphany. I began to
realize as part of the Olderman statistic, ten out of
ten die dawn on me earlier on, just in the
back of my mind. As a kid, I used to
play wars with my friends and get shot. And I'd
(02:29):
roll down a hill, lay there for about five seconds
and get up, you know, to live again. And I
realized that the time is coming on I wouldn't get
up and live again. And so I became a Solomon,
very successful young businessman, own houseman, car a wife. The
age of twenty. Business is doing well. If someone says,
what do you do for a job, I said, I
mind my own business. What do you do? And I
(02:52):
became a Solomon. Everything just seemed vain. I looked him
away from thought she could be snatched from me by
death and I'd have nothing to live. And remember one night,
I just wept. Tears streamed down my face as I
thought about the futility of life and the reality of death,
and I just cried out why, not realizing I was
crying out to God, and he didn't enter my mind.
(03:13):
But about six months later I realized that God heard
that cry. And I was sitting on a surfing trip
at a table, and a Christian friend who had just
become a Christian, I left his Bible there and I
read the words of Jesus, who have heard it said
by them of old, you shall not commit adultery and
I thought to myself, well, I've never committed adultery. If
there's a heaven, I'll make it. And then I read
(03:34):
what came next. But I say to you, whoever looks
upon a woman to lust for her has committed adultery
already within his heart. And was like an arrow went
right into my chest, and I thought, a dead man.
God's seen my thought life. And it was the big revelation.
And for the first time ever, I was confronted with
my own sinfulness, burning with unlawful sexual desire like every
(03:58):
red blooded young guy. And that was the first time
I understood the Cross. Never understood the Cross, didn't have
a clue what it meant until I saw my sin.
And I got soundly saved that night. And yeah, I'll
share what happened. I became like a maniac because I'd
found the everlasting life. You know, I haven't didn't found
(04:20):
long life, it didn't find riches. I found something far
more valuable. And so I put a billboard with Bible
verses at the front of our home. I got a
printing press and put it in my home, began printing
gospel tracks. I purchased a thirty four seat a bus
and put scripture around the outside. Jesus said, I'm the way,
the truth in the life. The gift of God is
eternal life, and one foot professional sign writing. I gave
(04:43):
out tracks to any when I met. I'd put John
Chapter three, verses one to sixteen on the front window
of my business. And I got a soapbox and put
it in the heart of our city and began speaking
to the crowds there and did that almost every day
for twelve years. So if anyone could have been considered religious,
not in those days, it was me. Nowadays I'm much worse.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Amen and loving it that. That's uh, that actually explains
so much you were You were saved by coming to
an understanding of your own depravity. That was part of
your story, which is what is so important in your ministry.
There there you do not evangelize. You wouldn't evangelize without
making clear the person's own depravity and need for a savior.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Absolutely, And you know, Jesus said, he that's forgiven much
the same loves much my motivation for being zealous. Every
day I go to the local college twice a day
when it's not raining. It's raining today on my bike
with my dog on the platform. Both were in sunglasses
and best bait I've ever had. When fishing for men,
(05:50):
I can just sail up to complete strangers and they go, oh,
I love your dog, and girls when I write past
and woman call out how cute, and I call back,
so was the dog. And it's just such a wonderful
means of reaching the lost, and the motivation, the fuel
that motivates me is the high octane fuel of gratitude.
(06:12):
I cannot express to you how grateful I am that
God saved me from death and from hell. Thanks beyond
to God for the unspeakable gift. Like Paul, I cannot
even put into words how grateful I am. So what
I can't put into words I put into works. I
just want to please God with all my heart. I
want to reach the lost and with any way I can,
(06:32):
And so that's what I do. And I believe I'm
a normal biblical Christian when you read the Book of Acts,
I'm nothing special. Every corner they turned, they preached the
gospel peril of their own lives. So I thank God
that when God gave eternal life in the Upper Room,
when the Holy Spirit fell, they didn't carpet out the
upper room, didn't put an air conditioning with a little
(06:54):
notice out the side tonight seven o'clock, all welcome. No,
they went open air, went out to what they were
told to do, Go into all the world and preach
the Gospel of every creature. Let me share my knowledge
of Greek. You know, when Jesus said, go into all
the world and preach the Gospel of every creature, that
would go and the original Greek actually means go. When
(07:15):
he said preach into all the world the world, the
word all in the original Greek means all. And when
he said to every creature, that word every in the
Greek means every. So when Jesus said go into all
the world and preach the Gospel to every creature, what
he was saying to be true to the originalists, go
into all the world and preach the Gospel of every creature.
And I don't know how so many Christians can miss that.
(07:38):
We're so busy at the contemporary church doing everything but
what we've been told to do, and we must look
at the Book of Acts and say, this is our blueprint.
How far we've fallen.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
You know, you cause profound you're saying it's actually translated correctly.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Yes, it's translated correctly cynicism, but yeah, we've missed it.
You look at the the Gospel of Luke, chapter fifteen.
How can anyone read Luke fifteen and not be just
transformed and know exactly what they're supposed to be doing.
You know, a shepherd left ninety nine sheep to go
and bring back one more joy in heaven over one
(08:15):
sinnate that comes to repentance. Lady lost one coin. She
swept the floor, she'd lit a candle, swept the floor,
and she'd diligently searched for it, and she led a candle.
And it seems most of the churches in the dark
when it comes to what we're here for. You know,
we need to sweep the floor, get rid of sin
in our lives, and get rid of anything that's hindering
us from doing the will of God, and then be
(08:36):
diligent in reaching out to the last, always a bounding
the work of the Lord, steadfast, unmovably. And then it
led up to the prodigal son. So we've got the sheep,
and then something more valuable, one valuable coin, and then
the value of a human being that was lost and
The thing that brought the prodigal son back to the
(08:57):
father was the knowledge that his desires were for filthy
pig food. And that was my revelation the night I
got seved. That's what got me saying, I've sinned against heaven,
and in your sight, make me your servant.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Amen. Amen. So when do you think was the first time.
Can you remember the first time you realized that riding
on a bike with a dog and was fruitful ministry
for you? Oh?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Yes, I remember the very second it led up to it.
I'd go to Huntington Beach and I'd see some guy
come along with a great Dane and there's a crowd
around him. Instantly people said, oh, I love your dog.
And I thought, I'm going to get a great dane,
going to wreck my marriage. But I'm going to get
a great Dane because we've only got a small home
(09:39):
and it's going to cost a fortune to feed it
and then deposits on the lawn. Yeah, it's going to
be difficult to convince my wife. So I taught her
about it, and then I was going to work once
to our ministry and my dog was a poodle of
white Pool at that time. Oh, it was a bijon
sorry ran alongside, and when he was younger, he had
no problem. At this day he was getting older and
(10:00):
I could hear him panting, and then he got tired
or and tired. It was only a mile, so I
picked him up and I carried him as I rode
that bike, pedaled the bike, and he absolutely loved it.
So I thought, oh, I'm going to make a little
frame for him to sit on, and I put him on.
I'm gonna put sunglasses on him to make him look cool,
like I lot, because this is southern California. And so
(10:21):
I took him out the first time, and people came
out of their houses as I went past and yelled
out and said, how I need how cute can I
take a photo? And I realized I wasn't the size
of the dog in the battle. It was the cuteness
of the dog wearing sunglasses. And so I've now go
now got another dog. The other one passed on wherever
(10:44):
they go to, and I've got one Lucy. She's really
really cute, and she's she's learned how to wear the
sunglasses and like I said, it's the greatest greatest tool
I have. And fishing for me in the greatest bait
that I have. In fact, I encourage people, if you
want to share your faith, go for a walk around
(11:05):
the block with your dog, and that dog will give
you instant rapport with dog lovers and almost everybody loves dogs.
If you want to put it on steroids, put sunglasses
on the dock and that'll get strangers coming up and
saying wow. And we've got tracks, dog tracks that people
can get. We've even got a dog box it's called
the dog box with sunglasses in it, with the elastic
(11:26):
in the right place and how to do it, and
a little books on dogs. So I think we're sold
to something like three or four hundred. So there's three
or four hundred dogs with sunglasses on walking around America
and getting the gospel of the hands of strangers.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
You've done this thousands and thousands of times what you're describing,
and I would imagine that many of them are not
on camera, and the public doesn't see the majority of
what you do. You started doing that later, you started
taking a camera. I'm assuming and thinking I should show
people this, should do something with these encounters and make
(12:03):
them public.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yeah, what happened the first time was Jewish voice or
a Christian radio program. They, knowing my Jewish background, got
me on their program and they said, can we send
a camera crew across camera crew a cross. That's not
easy to say, to film you witnessing to people. So
we went to Hollywood and then we went to Seal
Beach and I got a great interview this is nineteen
(12:25):
ninety nine of a young guy who was very repentant.
Start off a little arrogant and became repentant. They had
a big, huge, sixteen millimeters camera and for years, when
I understood the purpose of God's Lord to bring the
knowledge of sin, and I'd see people come under conviction,
I thought, I wish I could film this and show
people what's happening. So I actually got some footage, and
(12:45):
that's what started off start us off on. When YouTube started,
I immediately put a video up there. And we've got three
thousand videos a now and something like our channels have
got over four hundred million you. So we're we're an
awe at this incredible medium. The Apostle Paul would be
(13:05):
green with righteous envy at what we've got. I mean,
he wanted to get our message out to the Galatians,
you'd get someone I think you dictated and the hand
deliver it. Well, we have with a push of a button,
we get instantly the Gospel to literally millions all around
the world. So I am awestruck and humbled and so
(13:29):
grateful that I was born at this day and age.
I'm seventy five. I'll be lucky to finish finish this interview.
But to understand, you know, people often say in interviews,
do you have any final words? And I said, that
means more to me than what you think it means. Yeah,
be careful that, yeah, I have any final words. But yeah,
I'm just so thrilled that I scraped in on this
(13:49):
whole wave of modern technology or the iPhone, and with
with Max, I do the editing myself. Where our YouTube
videos in the night. Still, yeah, we've got We've got
professional guys paid here in our studio to do editing.
And they use final cut pro. I don't know if
(14:10):
you know when that is a professional one. I use iMovie.
I call what they do final cut slow because I
can do in ten minutes what takes them two hours.
Because iMovie is made for dummies, and it's just wonderful
and so I go out to local college film people,
and then I can get it up on shorts or
(14:31):
on our channel, one of our channels within an hour,
within two hours with the music and the entro and everything.
So it's just just wonderful to have access to this technology.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Amen, you were savvy for seventy five. That's incredible. Thank you.
So there is a there is a specific order, There
is something you do in these conversations, and I think
it would be helpful to discuss maybe how the evolution
of how you discovered your the conversation and where do
(15:04):
you start. You start with a dog that gets the
attention of the person. Where is the first time you
bring up a faith or religious aspect to the conversation.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, I've got two prongs to my fault or two
strings to my bow, whatever one you want, Okay. The
first one is the knowledge that God has placed eternity
on the heart of every human being. We're not dogs, horses, cats,
or cows. We're human beings made in the image of God.
And so deep within the heart of every human being
is something that says, oh, I don't want to die.
(15:37):
But it goes deeper than that. Hebrews two verse fourteen
and fifteen says and this is from the amplified Bible,
so quote it a little louder and says, every human
being is haunted by the fear of death all their lifetime.
So I have that knowledge. So what I do is
I go zooming in people come up, students, love your
dog and say, YouTube channel one point six million subscribers,
(16:01):
would you like to go on YouTube? I don't know.
So I'm gonna ask you if you think there's life
after death? Do you think there's life after death? And
I say I don't know, So what's your name? And
he says Eric? So Eric, let's do it. It's not life,
and I'll help you.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
He says, Okay, do with me, Ray, do it with me.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
I'll be Eric. Okay, Eric, No, it's not gonna work.
It's not gonna work. I've got to share something important. No,
it's not gonna work because they've got to explain something
important and you won't. You won't say what I want
you to say. So Eric says this, I say it, Okay,
let's go. Can I permission interview for YouTube and or
media purpose? He says sure. First question I ask Eric,
(16:39):
is you're afraid to die, and Eric says a little bit.
I say a little bit, Are you kidding? Someone's gonna
bury you in a box six feet under the ground.
Everything within you should be repulsed, everything within you should
be saying, is there a way past this? This thing
called death? And I watch his eyes and I can
(17:02):
see what he's thinking. He's thinking, how does this guy
know I haven't told mum or Dad, my brother, or
my sister, my girlfriend or my boyfriend. I haven't told
anyone that I'm terrified of dying. But it takes my
breath away. And I know he's haunted by this fear
of death. So this is what I do. I said,
do you ever read the Bible? And he says, oh no.
(17:23):
I said, you know, it's the world's biggest seller of
all time. And the Old Testament God promised he would
destroy death. And in the New Testament we're told, Harry
did it? Did you know that? And Eric says no,
Say would you like to hear about that? Now? Who's
going to say no to that? Even atheists will say, yeah,
tell me, tell me about it. Why? Because in the
(17:44):
heart they're crying out to be released from this terror,
of this horror, this haunting fear of death that they have.
And so I explained to them why they die. I said,
do you know why the Bible says we die? And
they say no. And this is the thing that just
opens the heart. I say, oh, the Bible says the
wages of sin is death. Death is wages that God
(18:04):
is paying you in. It's like a judge who has
a criminal in front of him who's committed murder, but
he thinks he's a good person. The judge says, I'm
going to show you how serious a crime is. I'm
giving you the death sentence. This is your wages. This
is what you've earned. And Eric, sin is so serious
to or a holy God, He's given you the death sentence.
You're on death row. You're in a holding cell. Nice
(18:26):
blue roof, good ee conditioning, good lighting, but this life
is a holding cell and your death will be evidence
to you that God is deadly serious about sin. I say, Eric,
here's the question. Do you think God has justified to
put you to death for your sins? Or are you
a good person? And he says I'm pretty good person.
I said, well, I'm going to see if I can
(18:47):
change your mind. I'm going to be the prosecutor, you
be the defendant, and I'm going to see if you're
guilty or innocent. That's your plea. Let's go ten commandments.
How many lies have you told? He ever stolen something?
Ever used God's name in vain? And they say, yes,
I've used God's name vain. But of a Habit said,
you know you've taken the holy name of God God.
You Jews won't even speak it or write it down.
It's so holy, and you've used it as a cussword. Eric,
(19:09):
that's blasphemy. Would you do that with your mother's name?
And Eric says, I wouldn't do that because your respect
her be don't respect the God that gave you a mother.
And it brings us sobriety and brings the knowledge of
sin and prepares the heart for grace. It shows them
the disease so they can appreciate and appropriate the cure
of the Gospel. And it's very simple, and it's based
on what Jesus did with the rich young ruler. It's
(19:32):
based on what Paul did in Romans. To you who
say you shall not steal, do you steal? You say
you shall not commit adultery? To you commit adultery. What's
he doing. He's appealing to the work of the Lord.
Written on the heart the conscience bearing witness, say to evolutionists,
so you believe in evolution, Yeah, why did evolution write
a conscience deep within your heart that agrees with all
(19:52):
the ten commandments? Why did evolution do that? You shall
not steal, shall not lie, shall not commit adultery, shall
not take God's name in vain? Why did evolution and
put that on your heart? And you can't even get
rid of it. It's so strong, So donnah, it's God's
God's given that to you, and you know right from wrong.
And that's the first that's the first prong to the fore,
(20:12):
and the second one will strength of the bow. The
second one is the knowledge that he has a conscience
and he has this will to live. And the conscience
is just so powerful. It's like Lazarus. You just say,
come fourth, and that which stunk actually comes forth. The
conscience is still there. It's been just seared, like the
(20:32):
Bible says, when you see a re stake, you don't
cook it all the way through, just to each side.
That and when you take the sharp scalpel of God's
law and cut it into the conscience. It comes alive,
it does its duty. It's an impartial judge on the
courtn of the mine. So one moment, you've got someone
who's denying everything that you're saying, because this carnal mind
(20:54):
is in a state of enmity towards God. It's not
subject to the law of God, and even he can
be But when you go to the con the conscience
begins to be a witness, and you find someone who
was contentious two minutes ago was actually subconsciously nodding an
affirmation that the commandments are true. So they are the
two strings, the knowledge that everyone has a will to
(21:16):
live and the conscience using the Lord dister of the conscience.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
So how long did it take you to kind of
put together this very specific we'll call it a liturgy.
I mean, it's it's very ordered and very well structured
and very biblical. Did it take you longer? Was this
something that just came to you?
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Well, it came to me after a long time, as
very frustrated. I wrote a book called Evangelical Frustration. It's
now called Hell's Best cap Secret. That's the name of
the teaching, but it was originally called evangelical frustration. And
I suffer from that disease because I was an assistant
pastor and I saw statistics for a local church that
(21:56):
ninety percent of our decisions fell away. Excuse me, I've
got a frog in my throat, trying to evolve in
a tadpole. Trynt to evolve in a frog. And I
was frustrated, and an itinerant ministry opened up, and I
found that everywhere I went, from large churches to smaller
churches to big crusades, had this full away rate of
(22:17):
eighty to ninety percent. And I thought, man, if you
go fishing a ninety percent of your fish get away,
something wrong with your net. It's too big, too many
holes in it. And one Friday afternoon, while suffering from
the disease, I read a portion of sermon by Charles Spurgeon,
and he said this, what will you do when the
law comes in terror, when the trumpet of the archangel
(22:39):
shall tear your way, terar its way into your guilty soul,
when the book shall be open and all your sin
and shame shall be punished? Can you stand against against
an angry law? In that day? And I remember looking
at that and thinking, oh, that's a little different from
God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.
Right the what is Spurgeon doing. He is using the law.
(23:00):
I'm making sinners tremble. That was on a Friday night,
Sunday morning. I was about one hundred miles away waiting
to speak in a very small Presbyterian church. And I
was in a room and I opened my Bible and
I Regulatians three twenty four. Wherefore the law was our
schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. And I thought, oh, yeah,
(23:21):
a law was a schoolmaster to bring Israel to Christ.
And I thought, no, it doesn't say that. He said us.
I thought, is it legitimate as Spurgeon was doing, to
use the law the ten Commandments to bring the knowledge
of sin. So remember I had some time was they
had some thermal pools in this small town. Shut my
Bible ran to these thermal poles, sat into it, and
(23:42):
I determined to witness the next person who came into
the pool. Big guy sat next to me, and so
instead of saying and Jesus came into my heart and
filled the god chap vacuum, and I found peace, love,
joy fulfillment, and life just became perfect with no problems.
When I gave my heart to Jesus. Instead of saying that,
I went through the Ten Commandments and talked about judgment
Day and the reality of hell. And this guy, I'll
(24:05):
never forget it, stood to his feet and it was
a very cold day and he was steaming. That's why
I remember it. And he said, I've never heard that
put so clearly in all my life. And he just
walked off. And it was like a light bulb went
off on my head, because one went off on hint
his head. Because the Commandment is a lamp and the
Law is light. It brings the knowledge of sin. It's
(24:27):
a schoolmasters bring us to Christ. So I thought, I wonder,
So I went to a Christian bookstore and I began
grabbing Wesley Moody Whitfield and just checking out different areas
in these books. And when I found a chapter that
I thought, this could tell me. Everywhere I read, these
great preachers said, if you do not use the law
to bring the knowledge of sin, you will fill the
(24:49):
church with false converts. And it's exactly what's happened. We're
forsaken God's law and its capacity to bring the knowledge
of sin and show us a need of a savior.
And instead of causing people to tremble, that's sinning against
God and fleeing to the cross. We've upheld Jesus or fiction, marriage,
a drug problem, alcohol problem. So people come experimentally to
(25:11):
find if Jesus fixes everything, and when he doesn't, we
get instead tribulation, temptation, and persecution. They fall away and
their ladder in becomes worse than the first. So we've
got masses of not any false converts in the church.
We've got millions who have been inoculated by another gospel.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
The Puritans knew that the Puritan they preached that Spurgeon
was born too late, but he was a lost Puritan,
but he understood exactly what they meant. And this is
the hinge to your ministry. This starting with the sin,
bringing magnifying the guilt of the person under a holy
God is the hinge to your ministry. That's what you
(25:52):
have done from the beginning, and that's what sets you apart.
And that's also what is so different. You know, we
see online ministries, you know, there's millions of them. Before
this this conversation with you, I was reviewing one in particular,
there's a there's a young guy very popular on YouTube shorts.
And he goes and he goes into the streets and
(26:15):
and he says, he says his testimony exactly like you
just articulated what you just said, that that would be
the wrong thing to do. He goes and he says,
I was I was searching for something. I had a
god size hole in my heart, and the Lord came
to me in in a very profound way. And now
(26:37):
I'm here to tell you that you could have that
same thing. Because God loves you and you might have
to pray for you. And this is his prayer. This
is what's interesting, and I wanted to talk to you
about it, he says. He says, God, this, this guy,
we'll call him Tom, Tom is searching for you. Will you, Jesus,
will you present yourself to him in dreams and visions
(26:59):
so that he knows you. Amen? And that's that's the
end of the prayer. And that's the end of the clip.
And it gets millions of Yews. People love that idea,
but it is not the scalpel you were talking about
that cuts through the heart.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, think of Nathan with David. Nathan said David man
stolen another man's lamb, killed it. And David stood on
his high throne and self righteousness and said that man
on a store fourfold and he will die. And then
Nathan said, you are the man. Why have you despised
the commandment of the Lord. And then David cried, I've
(27:36):
sinned against God. And then we have the penitent prayer
of some fifty one. Have mercy upon me, O, God,
according to loving kindness, according to the multitude of your
tender mercies, blot out my transgressions against you. And you
only have I sinned and done this evil in your sight?
Nathan didn't talk to David about a wonderful plan. When
you're committed adultery and murder, what's that? What's that got
(27:59):
to do with anything? What a misrepresentation. And we have
multitudes in our nation that commit adultery and hate people,
and even murder, and filled with lustin and fornication and blasphemy.
And they need to be confronted with God's law or
they will have a false conversion. Think of the prodigal son.
What was it that sent him back to his father?
(28:21):
As I said before, it was the knowledge that he
was desiring pig food. That's what made him say, whips,
we've lost the picture. You're still there.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
I'm so here good.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
My picture just disappeared, so let me pick it up.
Because it was so important. It was the knowledge that
his desire was for pig food, and it was my
knowledge that I had desires that were unclean. All is
an unclean thing. But what modern evangelism does is it
doesn't take the prodigal son and show him his desires
(28:54):
are unclean. Instead, it circumnavigates that. So the prodigal goes
back to the father. Instead of saying I've sinned against heaven,
and in your sight make me a servant, he goes
back to the Father and says, I've run out of money.
You be my servant. And that's what happens with a
prosperity doctrine. They don't this whole prosperity thing. What they
(29:18):
say doesn't bother me. It's what they don't say.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
All these exactly creatures.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
They don't talk about sin, righteousness, and judgment. They talk
about everything else except the cross Christ crucified for sinners.
And so people make decisions and God becomes their servant.
I've run out of money. You be my servant, You
supply my needs, You make me win the sport. And
it doesn't work like that. God doesn't come running when
(29:44):
we click our fingers. He's not a divine butler. I mean,
just go back. We're talking about a hinge. I ask people,
and quite often I say and ask even sinners. If
you're a doctor and you're a patient in front of
you who was incredibly well looking, head of physique like mine.
He went to the gym every day. He looked incredibly healthy.
(30:06):
But you know better because you've seen X rays. He's
going to be dead in two weeks because you know
there's a cancerous disease seeping through his body. You've got
a cure in your pocket. Do you give him the
cure or do you show him the X rays? And
a lot of people say, ah, just give him the cure.
I said, that's not going to work, and they say
why because he thinks he's well. He's gonna say, doc,
(30:27):
what's this? Look at me, look at my physique. I'm
go to the gym every morning. What are you talking about?
He's not going to want a cure what he hasn't
seen his disease. Doctor, knows what he's doing. He's going
to point to the point, to the X rays and
he's going to show this poison seeping through the system,
and he's going to make him tremble to a point
where he says, Wow, Doc, this is serious. What should
(30:49):
I do? Now? He's ready for the cure. Now he'll
appreciate it and appropriate it because he's seen as disease.
And now he'll appreciate and understand the cure. And so
that's the essence of what I do and what Jesus did.
As we just show sinners the X rays of the commandments.
The God requires truth in the inward partsaw that the
(31:11):
law is spiritual. And my aim is to give the
Philippian jailer this personal earthquake. I want to make Felix
tremble to a point where you'll say, Wow, this is serious.
What must I do to be saved? And the modern
Church doesn't do that because they don't see fear as
(31:31):
being beneficial. The fear of the Lord is the beginning
of wisdom. Scripture says, through the fear of the Lord,
men depart from evil. And when people don't fear God,
they'll not depart from evil. They'll cling to their sins
and profess to be Christians and don't depart from iniquity
as what they should, and then they don't bring forth
fruit worthy of repentance.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Amen. And when you say modern church, that's not all encompassing,
because there are still some.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yes, absolutely, we'll give this.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
So if that's the hinge, we've we've walked through exactly
what you do, that is the hinge. But as that
door of that hinge swings open, then it is then
when you present the gospel. And when you present the
gospel it is not merely Jesus loves you. That's the
end of the story. It is a gospel of substitutionary atonement.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
And so then now as the door swings open with
your hinge of exposing the sin, now tell us what
the next step is. As the door swings open.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Yeah, Jesus loves you is not biblical. People are quick
to say, yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
It's not.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
It's not found a scripture. Want find anyone using the
phrase Jesus loves you. In fact, whenever the love of
God is presented, almost always, it's always in direct correlation
to the cross. Herein is love, not that we love God.
But then he loved us and sin his son to
be a substitute or propitiation for us sins. God so
(33:00):
loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.
I'm crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live yet not I,
but Christ lives in me. And the love and the
love of God to have, however that ends seventy five,
Give me a break the love by that God who
loved me and gave himself for me. Paul says, he
(33:21):
loved me and gave himself me, pointing to the cross.
And so what I want to do is necessitate the cross.
It's like being in a plane and you've got a
guy who's sitting there and he has no concern that
he has to jump out of the plane because he's
enjoying a good movie and he's eating good food. He's
enjoying the flight. But you know the plane's going to crash.
(33:43):
He doesn't know that. He doesn't even think about putting
on a parachute. So the best thing I can do
for this person is to say, could you just stop
eating from it? And I want you to look down. This
plane's going to crash, and I want you to think
about hitting the ground at one hundred and twenty miles
an hour. That's going to be terrifying. In fact, I'm
going to hang you out the plane by your ankles
for two seconds. When you come back in, fear is
(34:04):
going to kick in and do you a favor. Fear
is going to be your friend, not your enemy, because
it's going to make you put on a parachute. And
what I tell sinn is is I've tried to put
the fear of God in you today, hoping you'll see
that fear is your friend, not your enemy, because it'll
make you serious with the God that gave you life.
And people suddenly say, yeah, I am feeling scared. My
(34:28):
mouth did go dry, I did quiver on the lip.
And I said, well, listen to that fear. It's God given,
it's your will to live, and you need a fleet
of Jesus Christ. And you know, I've got someone and
going to call me up and do an interview on miracles.
And I'm a little nervous because I believe in healing.
You know, someone's sick, I'll pray for them. Someone says
I've got cancer, I'll pray for you every night. And
(34:50):
I'm believing for God to do a miracle, but I
don't see too many of them. However, there is a
miracle that every human being can have. And remember the
Pharisees came to Jesus and said, show us a sign.
And Jesus said, no sign shall be given to this
adulterous and evil generation. But the sign of Jonah, as
Jonah was in the fish for three days, three nights,
(35:13):
social and son a man be in the heart of
the earth. So that's a direct point to the gospel.
Jesus is liking Jonah to the gospel. And that's the
sign that's given. And that's the miracle that God offers
human beings. He will take a heart of stone, give
you a heart of flesh. He'll open the eyes of
your understanding. He'll take out of darkness and de light,
(35:33):
out of death into life. He will so radically change
you on the inside and make you a new creation
that all things will pass away, all things will become you,
and you'll suddenly get a love for righteousness, a consciousness
of God's presence, and a love for his word. And
I look back, and this is my own personal miracle.
And this is what God offers every sinner. I had
(35:56):
no serious thought about God for twenty two years as
a non crest. I can say I don't think I
gave God ten seconds serious thought, even though I used
to pray the Lord's prayer every night. But the moment
I was saved, the moment I was born again, everything
within me you wanted to please the God that gave
me life. And it's now been fifty something years, and
(36:17):
there wouldn't be ten minutes when I didn't think about
the Lord and what he wants me to do, and
the lost and the Howl, and the Bible and his promises.
It wasn't something I instigated. It was something that God
did within me. And that's our own personal miracle that
God gives everyone that comes to Christ. And I love
what someone once said, the man with an experience is
(36:39):
not at the mercy of a man with an argument.
If you know you're born again, you know you pass
from death to life. I don't care what anyone says,
even if they find the bones of Jesus in Jerusalem,
that doesn't deter me one second. I don't doubt my savior.
If someone comes up to me of the trailer oad
of diamonds and says swap before you've got in. Christ,
absolutely not take a hike, because I've found something more
(37:02):
precious than all the gold in the world.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
So ray, what was the name of the hypothetical man
we were working with here? Eric? Eric? Okay? So Eric,
Eric is now on the airplane. You have interrupted his
fine meal in first class and you have told him
you better look out the window because there is smoke
coming out of the wings. This plane is going down.
That's what you've done at the beginning of the conversation
(37:28):
with Eric. And then as he realizes, oh wow, you're right.
As much as I want to deny it, I do
see now that this plane is going down. So how
do you then offer Eric the parachute? Let's go hypothetical back.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Okay, back to Eric. I want him to put on
the Lord Jesus Christ. I want him to put on
the parachute. So what I do is I say, now,
you're under God's wrath. You're hitting for hell. You know that.
What did God?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
You've actually asked him that too. You said Heaven or
Hell after you?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Because I'm the prosecutor, he's defenders. How do you plead
guilty or in guilty Heaven or Hell? And they'll say hell.
Often they'll say hell because they can't. They can't say
I'm going to heaven. And the Bible says all liars
of the part in the lake of fire. And so
I say, what did God do for guilty sinners so
he wouldn't have to go to hell? And the answer
(38:23):
comes back, Jesus died on the cross. And this is
what I ask in us, especially with Catholics, I say,
what does that mean? Here you are under God's wrath
heading for hell. How can the death of Jesus two
thousand years ago help you? And they go quiet and say, well,
(38:45):
he set as an example of how we should live
when we're persecuted. That's their understanding of the cross. The
God of this world has blinded the minds of them
that believe, not least the light of the glorious Gospel
should shine under them. I say no, no, I said,
let me tell you what God. And I said, and
I say, Eric, if you can get a grip of this,
it's going to change everything for you. So don't let
(39:07):
anything distract you. And the reason I say that is
that's when distractions come from all over the place. Normally,
people button, someone play guitar beside us. A guy come
up with a bike and ring the balon, just things
like that. So I said, don't And if he gets distracted,
I say, remember what I said, don't let anyone to
distract you. And I say this, it's as simple as this, Eric,
you and I broke God's law. Jesus paid the fine.
(39:31):
That's what happened on that cross. We broke the law.
He paid the fine. That's why he cried out, it
is finished. Just before he died, he was saying, paid
in full. And this is the kicker. This is what
opens the understanding. I said, if you're in court and
you've got speeding fines and you plead guilty, a judge
(39:51):
will let you go if someone pays those fines. He says, Eric,
you're guilty, but you can go because someone paid your fine.
And I say, and it's legal. God, Eric can legally
take death off you. Or because Jesus paid the fine
and it's legal. And then he rose from the dead
(40:12):
and defeated death. And if you'll simply repent of your sins,
and you'll never do that while you think you're a
good person, But today we've looked at what sin is
and put your trust in Jesus. God promises he'll grant
you ever lasting life as a free gift, not because
you're good, but because He's good and kind and rich
in mercy. And then I say, does that make sense?
Or do you understand what I'm saying? Why? Because that's
(40:34):
what Philip said to the Ethiopian Eunich. Do you understand why?
Because the good soiler hero and the peril of the
sower hears and understands. What is it that brings understanding
the schoolmaster? The law brings the knowledge of sin. The
commandment is a lamp, and the law is light. And
Eric will say, yeah, I've never heard it put like
(40:56):
that before. So Eric, I didn't say Siri, I said, Eric,
crazy woman, modern technology, hahuh? Poor. We want to how
many marriages have been wrecked by that woman? So anyway, Eric,
(41:21):
I say, Eric, when are you going to repent? Now?
I'm not getting a decision from him. I'm not going
to lead him in a sinner's prayer because it's not biblical.
I say, Eric, when you're going to repent and put
your trust in Jesus rather than in your own goodness?
I want to bring him to a point of alarm.
I don't want him to just be awakened. It's like
a man who's lying in bed and his house is
on fire. I don't want him to just be awakened,
(41:43):
Oh yeah, my house is on fire.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
No.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
No, I want to be alarmed and run out. And
that's what I want to bring Eric from being awakened
what he has meant to being alarmed. And so I
say to him, when you're going to saist soon? I said,
that's what the devil would want you to say, because
you could die to night in your sleep. You could
have an aneurysm in your sleep, you could to have
a heart attack. A lot of people die young. Fifty
four million people die every year, fifty four million, and
(42:08):
a lot of young people. That widens his eyes. I'm saying, Eric,
I'm trying to I'm trying to get you to wake
up and realize today is damn salvation. Do you hear
what I'm saying? He says, yeah, I do. Can you
see this urgency? He says, yeah? So can you hear
my tone? Why am I talking to you like this?
It's because I really do love you, and I know
what I'm saying is true. This is a life and
(42:28):
death issue yours. And Eric says, yeah, I said, can
I pray for you? No sinners prayer? I just want
to pray for him.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Can can you unpack that really quickly for people? Why
you say the sinners not the sinners prayer? That is unbiblical?
What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah? The analogy I use and the sinner is prayer.
Let me let you know what some people think. It's
the guy that cried out, God, be merciful to me,
a sinner that Jesus spoken right now. That's not the
sinnes preer. The sinners prayer is the modern method of
getting a decision for Christ, where you have everybody close
their eyes and bow their heads. You play music to
(43:04):
stir with their emotions. You build your church with a
floor sloping towards the front, and then with every head
bowed and eye closed, nobody is watching, you just raise
your hand to give your heart to Jesus. Ah, I
saw that hand, and then you get everybody to stand,
and then those that raise their hands that come forward
with the music playing, there's no knowledge of sin, there's
(43:24):
no trembling, there's no fear of God, there's no preaching
of the law it's just there's something missing in your life.
Give your heart to Jesus. And they've got decisions. They
feel that decision cards someone prais the sinner's prayer with
them when they say, repeat after me, God forgive me.
I'm a sinner. I give my life to Jesus today.
Ah Man, that sort of thing a little bit longer
than that, that's called the.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Ten years later in sin. Ten years later and someone
says you need to know Jesus, and they go, I've
done that.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
I've done that. I've done that.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
I've done it.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
I made by decision. So the analogy I use is this,
a man has committed adultery on his wife. She's willing
to take him back. So I say to him, Eric,
that's Eric again. Eric, I'll come with you. Door opens,
it's the wife and I say, this is Eric. You
know him. He's your husband that committed adultery. He's wanting
(44:15):
to come back. So he's got an apology for you.
So here we go. Eric, repeat this apology to your
wife after me, dear wife, dear wife, I'm really sorry
for committing adultery. That's crazy. She's gonna slam the door
and say it does make sense. What are you doing?
She isn't interested in his words. She wants him to
be sincere from his heart, just say I'm so sorry
(44:39):
I send against you, and please forgive me. That sort
of thing. And so when we lead sinners in that
sinner's prayer, it's ridiculous. Nathan didn't lead David in the
prayer of Psalm fifty one. It's spilt from his heart.
And so that method is filled the church with false converts.
And what they have to do is they have to
follow them up. I've got your decision cards, you know
(45:01):
the person, you know where they live, and so you
got knock on the door. They don't want to know you.
They're hiding in the closet. Most of those people don't
know what they did anyway, and that's why they lose
so many converts and follow up. It's not even biblical.
The Ethiopian eunuch was left without follow up. Philip the
evangelist left them in the desert. You say, oh, how
(45:21):
could he survive? All he had was God and the scriptures. No,
he is able to keep them from falling and present
them faultless before the presence of his glory of exceeding joy.
He's able to save to the uttermost them that come
to God by Him. So my knowledge that salvation has
got nothing to do with me. Salvation is the Lord God.
(45:42):
They're born of God. I don't want to mess it up.
And so all I'm doing is planting seed. And I
plant seed in my garden. I don't make it grow.
I plant seed and sometimes I pluck fruit, and so
I plant seed. That's all I'm doing when I share
the gospel with people's planting seed. And God gets the increase.
He that sows us nothing, that reaches nothing, but it's
God that gives the increase. So that's the biblical evangelism.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
And then what's your what's your prayer for Eric? At
the end, I've I've heard this many times, but I
want I want people to hear oh as the prayer saying,
Jesus reveal yourself in dreams and visions to Eric.
Speaker 1 (46:17):
No no, I say, I enter his gates with thanksgiving.
I say, Eric, le spray and let me tell you something.
This is a confession, and I don't know how to
fix it. On a YouTube channel, we find that people
write Eric took his hat off when you prayed. I
was so moved by that was brought to tears this generation.
Oh they're not as bad as I thought. What they
(46:37):
don't realize is that off camera' said take your hat off,
we're going to pray.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
That's a good confession. I like you.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, And so Eric takes his head off, and I
don't leave in me saying take your head off, because
we're going to pray. And so I pray. Like this
interest gates with thanksgiving, Father, thank you for Eric in
his open heart today. I pray that he will catch
a glimp of his own sinfulness and tremble at the
thought of sinning against a holy God. And yet at
(47:05):
the same time, may he catch a glimpse of your
love expressed in the cross that Christ died for us
while we yet sinners. I pray this day he will
truly repent, be genuinely sorry, be born again, be given
a new heart with new desires and a love of righteousness,
all because of your amazing grace and Jesus name me pray.
That's the essence of what I pray, and that's my
(47:27):
genuine hope. And prayer is very powerful. I remember once
this guy was in he said, I used to be
an annoying atheist. It's a beautiful interview. It's one of
my favorites. Very colorful guy. And we went back and
forth and he was so open. I said, can I
pray with you? He said sure, And so I prayed
(47:49):
when very very short prayer, and I just said in
Jesus name, Amen, and this x annoying atheist just went
whoa like that And it was nothing, And yet something happened.
In a month later, he came up to me holding
a Bible. He said, He's real. God is real. I said,
thank you so much. And it was just so neat
(48:11):
to see a little bit of fruit or something like that.
So when we pray it in the name of Jesus,
something happens in the heavenly So wow. We should never
demean prayer or say it's just a prayer. It's moving
the hand of God to touch the life of a sinner.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Ray, can I tell you a story of a true eric. Yeah,
this is in my church, a dear brother of mine
in the church. Remember with me. I said, Hey, I'm
going to have Ray Comfort on the show coming up.
Do you are you a fan of Ray? And he said,
am I a fan? The Lord used a Ray comfort
(48:47):
video to save me. Well, I said, wow, I said,
I said, brother, would you mind writing that a short
testimony and I'll actually read it on the show with him.
He said yes, So this is what he said. I said,
tell me the story. He said, Well, I was drunk
in despair over my chief idol, broken as a man,
at the end of myself, my marriage failing, stuck drinking
(49:12):
and listening to my algorithm of echo chamber conservative voices
of hope over societal rejection of policing. He's a police officer,
that which I held dearest, in which I found my
own self righteousness. Somehow God put religious content into the
mix one day while I was searching for the bottom
(49:33):
of the Internet, and when I got a glimpse of
my own sin, when I heard Ray share with similar
self righteous people without a view of their own depravity,
I finally understood my need for Christ and the cross.
Epiphany does the moment injustice I was reborn love for
(49:55):
God and what he had done filled me. Says this.
The crazy thing is I didn't know and expect God
to rebuild my marriage and reorganize all our priorities. I
actually had accepted that God's will may include my wife
and I separating if we could not unify with God first.
(50:17):
But God was very very kind to us. So beautiful.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
That's give me goose bumps. That's so encouraging. Well, praise
the Lord, Thank you for sharing that. Please give him
my love, and I'd like to get his address and
send something to him from the ministry after these interviews finished.
Speaker 2 (50:35):
He would love that. You know. I want to end
too by saying that I'm a big fan of the tracks,
the Living Water tracks, especially the round to It. This
one sticks out to me. It is for everyone listening.
It is a circle and it says this is a
round to it, and in the back it says you've
pacified your conscience by saying you would get right with God,
(50:58):
your creator someday when you get around to it. Well,
now you have one. And then the gospel's presented here.
And then surprisingly, when I traveled to different countries, I'm
usually surprised at which tracks gain attention, and this one
in particular really does. It's a oh one dollar bill
(51:23):
with the gospel on the back that you could find
at Living Waters on the website, and I have seen
people react in crazy ways internationally with this there was
a guy in the West Bank of Israel and he
owned a sandwich shop, and he loved this so much.
He put it with the gospel facing out right above
(51:44):
the cash register, tinned it to the wall. He thought
that was the neatest thing ever.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
And he was, Oh, that's so wonderful.
Speaker 2 (51:49):
He's a Muslim.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Yeah, wow, well, yeah, that's a good one to go
out and said, you have change for a big bill.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yes, that's wonderful. I love that.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
I've got a trump track that's just come out. It's
a we car, a patriotic tract, and an Elon Musk
million dollar bill. And for people who may be concerned
that we're getting political, we had an oboma a million
dollar bill some years ago. Sure, so we can head
it down the middle. Paul became all things to all men.
He quoted ungodly Greek poets in Athens as a springboard
(52:27):
for the Gospel, and we similarly do the same thing.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
That's amazing. Well, brother, thank you so much for your
time and your wisdom. So many have learned from you
over the years, including myself, and thank you for your
clarity in the Lord's work in your life. It's been
an honor to.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Speak with you can I give our website.
Speaker 2 (52:46):
You could give everything that we need to know.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
People can listen to Hell's Best Kept Secret at the
bottom of Livingwaters dot com and True and False Conversion,
which is the essence of the teaching that we've shared today.
And there's a lot of free stuff letter and the
YouTube channel is Ray Comfort YouTube or Living Waters YouTube,
and we really appreciate people sharing those and being equipped.
(53:10):
That's one thing that's just thrilled me is that people
write and say I'm now no longer intimidated by atheists
because they can see how simple it is to talk
to an atheist because their foolnesses of the Bible says.
So it's encouraging to know people are being equipped by
a YouTube channel.
Speaker 2 (53:25):
Amen, they sure are. Well, thank you, brother, thank you
for your time.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
Well, thank you, it's been a great interview.
Host
Granger Smith
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