March 23, 2022 • 47 mins
Notorious prisoners, multiple escape attempts, murders, suicides and horrendous punishments have left one of the most recognizable prisons in history indelibly haunted. In the season two finale of Haunted Road, we head to Alcatraz to separate fact from fiction, and share a whole load of ghost stories.
Special Guest: Chris Fleming
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion is advised.
Before I get started, I want to remind you all
that this is the season two finale of Haunted Road.
We'll be taking a break before we return with season three,
so please remain subscribed and please keep telling your friends
(00:24):
and spreading the good word. Thanks so much for your
support and listenership. I love going on this journey with
you every week. Hopefully we can keep the show rolling
for many seasons to come. Now let's get spooky. One
evening in April two eight, I found myself sitting in
(00:47):
a morgue, not really an unusual situation for an investigator
like me, but this particular morgue was very deteriorated. It
had not been in use for years and was not
open to the public. Sitting with a small group of
other investigators, we started doing e v P work in
the dark, and after a few questions, we played back
(01:08):
our recordings. To our surprise, we heard a voice answering us.
A female voice. It was faint and what she was
saying was hard to decipher, but it was most definitely
a woman. This was what surprised us, because we were
sitting in the morgue of one of the most notorious
prisons in the world, a prison that only housed a
(01:30):
male population. We were sitting in the morgue of Alcatraz.
How are we investigating at Alcatraz? You ask? A small
group of us had won a lottery for a coveted
overnight stay on the rock. At the time, they only
allowed about twenty of these each year. As that night progressed,
I needed to get a little sleep, so I settled
(01:52):
in my bed in Cell Block D, the most haunted
portion of the prison, because of course that's where i'd sleep. However,
within what seemed like moments of my eyes fluttering closed,
I heard what sounded like footsteps entered my cell. I
expected one of my friends to be playing a prank,
so I opened my eyes wide and shot up in
(02:14):
my bunk to scare them back. But I was alone.
All I could see was the faint glow of moonlight,
and all I could hear was a foghorn in the distance.
The entire building was still, and while I was supposedly alone,
I certainly didn't feel that way. It's safe to say
I did not get any sleep. I'm Amy Brunei and
(02:40):
this is haunted road. In June nineteen sixty two, Frank
Morris and brothers John and Clarence England vanished from their
cells in Alcatraz, never to be heard from again. It
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was later discovered that the men hatched an intricate plot
to escape the island prison, tunneling holes in walls, they
disguised with false fronts, enlarging air events, and fashioning dummies
complete with human hair to pass night inspection so they
could escape from their cells undetected. They used prison issued
raincoats to make crude life fests and a pontoon type
(03:24):
raft to assist in their swim, The Federal Bureau of
Prisons wrote in a History of Alcatraz. A cell house
search turned up the drills, heads, wall segments, and other tools,
while the water search found two life fests, one in
the bay the other outside the Golden Gate, oars and
letters and photographs belonging to the Anglands that had been
(03:44):
carefully wrapped to be water tight, but no sign of
the men was found. Other prisoners had tried to escape
from the island before, but none had vanished without a trace.
This infamous event was dramatized in the nineteen seventy nine
Clint Eastwood movie Skate from Alcatraz, but that's certainly not
where the legends of the most notorious prison in American
(04:06):
history started. Alcatraz was colonized in seventeen seventy five by
Spanish explorer Juan Manuel day Eliah, who named it Alcatrasis
after the islands Pelicans, which was eventually anglicized to the
name we know today. In the mid nineteenth century, the U.
S Army built a fort on the island, which held
(04:26):
the first lighthouse on the west coast. As a fortress,
it was nearly impregnable, as technology of the time could
make it. The National Park Service has said an American Gibraltar,
and it was crowned with a brick masonry citadel, which
may have been unique in the annals of American military architecture.
While it was fashioned as a fortress, Alcatraz's fort never
(04:48):
saw a military action, and instead became a prison to
punish and detain insubordinate soldiers. Eventually, the detainee population grew
to include Confederate sympathizers and civil war and conscientious objectors.
In World War one. It also has a dark history
of imprisoning Native Americans who resisted the whitewashing imposed on
(05:10):
them by the American government, imprisoning Native activists as early
as eighteen seventy three, who were described as murderous looking
Indians by a San Francisco newspaper in eighteen nine. The
article is filled with racial stereotypes of murderous and crafty
Redskins who refused to live according to the civilized ways
(05:31):
of the white men. The National Park Service later wrote
in nineteen thirty four, the government converted the building into
a federal penitentiary. There is maybe no other prison in
America that has inspired the legends Alcatraz has or holds
the same place in pop culture. Before you tweeted me
(05:53):
know the prison from Shawshank Redemption isn't a real place.
Alcatraz has inspired movies like the nineteen sixty two film
Birdman of Alcatraz starring Burt Lancaster, that aforementioned Clint Eastwood movie,
and The Rock The nineteen nine modern masterpiece was Sean
Connery and Nicholas Cage. Public fascination comes from its prominent
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spot in San Francisco Bay and its history of imprisoning
many of the most notorious criminals of the early twentieth century.
After gangster al Capone was convicted of tax evasion in
nineteen thirty one, he was sent to prison in Atlanta,
but in declining health and in need of isolation from
other inmates who saw him as an easy target, was
(06:37):
moved to the Rock in nineteen thirty four. Other infamous
inmates included George Machine Gun Kelly, the original not that
Guy on the Radio Today, Alvin Carpass, who was the
first ever public Enemy Number one, and Whitey Bulger, who
did time there before he rose to prominence in the
Boston Mob and spent sixteen years on the Lamb until
(06:58):
he was caught in Most of the prisoners, though, weren't
making headlines or pulling off nationally known capers. They were
inmates at other prisons who consistently disobeyed the rules and
needed stricter discipline, or who were considered violent or had
a high risk of escape. The prison on the Island
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was made up of one building with four cellblocks A
through D, separated by hallways with names like Broadway, Times Square,
Sunrise Alley, and Sunset Boulevard. There was also a library,
a chapel, an inmates barber shop, an exercise yard, and
underground dungeon cells used for the most inhumane punishments. While
(07:40):
there was a morgue in the building, no autopsies were
actually performed there, as there were relatively few mortalities, and
the executions would happen on the mainland at California's San
Quentin State Prison. Also on the island were housing for
the warden and for the guards and their families, an
officer's club, a lighthouse, and several other operational buildings for
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the approximately three hundred civilians living on the island, including
prison staff and their families. There was also a bowling
alley and soda fountain. If you want to see something
really cool, you can visit mp maps dot com slash
Alcatraz and compare maps of the island today with how
it looked in nineteen seventy seven, nineteen ten, and eighteen
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sixty seven, when it was just a military fort. Though
Alcatraz could hold up to three hundred thirty six inmates,
there were usually only about two hundred sixty or two
hundred seventy inside, according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons
at any given time, Alcatraz had less than one percent
of the total federal prison population. In its years as
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a federal prison, Alcatraz only held about fifteen hundred prisoners total.
Many prisoners actually considered the living conditions, for instance, always
one man to a sell at Alcatraz, to be better
than other federal prison sins, and several inmates actually requested
a transfer to Alcatraz, according to a history of the
prison by the Federal Bureau of Prisons. In particular, inmates
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praised the food, and some claim to feel safer in
Alcatraz's individual cells because not having a cellmate minimized the
risk of assault. But while Alcatraz was not the America's
Devil's Island that books and movies often portrayed, it was
designed to be a prison systems prison. It's isolation made
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the institution nearly escape proof, though there were absolutely escape attempts,
none of which are believed to be successful. But it
was the design of daily life that really made Alcatraz
a prison systems prison. Alcatraz was known for its highly structured,
monotonous daily routine that was designed to teach an inmate
to follow rules and regulations. At Alcatraz, a prisoner had
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four rights, food, clothing, shelter, and medical care. Everything else
was a privilege that had to be earned. Some privileges
a prisoner could earn included working, corresponding with, and having
visits from family members, access to the prison library, and
recreational activities such as painting and music. Once prison officials
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felt a man no longer posed a threat and could
follow the rules, usually after an average of five years
on Alcatraz, he could then be transferred back to another
federal prison to finish his sentence and be released. One
particularly harsh treatment was the rule of Silence, which mandated
that prisoners only speak to each other during meals or recreation.
(10:36):
It lasted through the late nineteen thirties. Conditions in the
prison were bad for white inmates, but even worse for
people of color behind bars. One African American prisoner, Robert Lipscomb,
gained a reputation among the guards for being a troublemaker
because of his repeated protests against segregation and inequality in
the prison system during the civil rights movement of the
(10:58):
nineteen sixties. Live Scum even wrote to then the U. S.
Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy about the issue and orchestrated
a protest of unequal race based treatment in the prison.
He was labeled a racial agitator. According to the National
Park Service, Alcatraz guards punished him with solitary confinement in
a cell with no light for twenty four hours at
(11:21):
a time. Solitary confinement in Alcatraz was terrible, but it
wasn't the worst punishment at the prison by far. There
was also a dungeon like cell called the Whole, a
pitch dark horror with slimy walls crawling with rats. It
was reserved for what officials deemed to be the very
worst offenders, like Robert Simmons, an African American man from Savannah, Georgia.
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Simmons was imprisoned at Alcatraz in nineteen eighteen for being
a conscientious objector who refused to fight when he was
conscripted into service during World War One. When he was
brought to the island, Simmons was immediately put in the
hole for fourteen days. He and thirty other inmates imprisoned
for conscientious objection refused to comply with orders. They were
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placed in iron cages, which were cells where they were
forced to stand chained to the cell door, unable to
sit or even turn around for eight hours a day.
Despite its grim history and the undeniable suffering that happened there,
not that many people died on the island. According to
Alcatraz history dot com, eight people were murdered by inmates,
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five men committed suicide, and fifteen died from natural causes.
But then there were the men who tried to escape.
Of the thirty six men who attempted it, twenty three
were caught, six were killed by prison guards, and the
remaining seven either drowned or were presumed drowned because they
were never recovered. The government chose Alcatraz for a prison
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because it was virtually escape proof, but that didn't stop
people from trying, sometimes in the most inventive ways. Some
tried to climb fences, only to fall one feet to
their death. Some filed bars in the windows and the
machine shop, only to likely drown in a bad storm.
In nineteen thirty eight, three inmates attacked and killed a
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correctional officer and then climbed to the roof to attack another.
One was shot dead and the other two received life sentences.
In nineteen forty three, four prisoners took two officers hostage
escaping to the beach. Two were apprehended, one was shot
and presumed drowned, and one also presumed dead, was found
alive and recaptured after emerging from the sea cave he
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had been hiding in for two days. In nineteen forty six, though,
was an insurrection so big it was later called the
Battle of Alcatraz. Six prisoners overpowered officers, gaining access to
weapons and the keys to the cell house. When the
men realized they didn't have the keys to the yard,
they knew they were trapped, but decided to fight. They
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shot and killed two officers and wounded sixteen others before
the Marines were called in to help regain control of
the prison. In the end, three of the insurrectionists were killed,
two were sentenced to the death penalty, and one received
a second life sentence. Of the fourteen escape attempts, all
of them were unsuccessful. Probably there's a slim chance one
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or two of them missing really did make it to land,
although probably not. Civilian swimmers have successfully crossed the one
one quarter miles stretched to Alcatraz, but they had the
benefit of exercise and conditioning and weren't subject to a
prison diet experts think it's unlikely any of the men
who weren't found made it to the mainland, maybe to
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counteract some of the awful truths about the prison, and
maybe because it's just human nature to turn rumors and
stories into legends. Happier tales have grown around Alcatraz too,
but that's the thing, they're just stories. The most famous
of all of them is the Birdman of Alcatraz, a
tall tale about Robert Stroud, originally imprisoned for manslaughter, who
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was moved moved to the federal prison in Leavenworth, Kansas
after attacking another inmate. He was then transferred to Alcatraz
after being convicted of first degree murder of eleven Worth
prison guard. Stroud raised and sold birds during his time
at that prison, even writing a book called Diseases of Canaries,
which had to be smuggled out to be published, but
(15:21):
all that stopped in Kansas. According to the Federal Bureau
of Prisons, Stroud never had any birds at Alcatraz, nor
was he the grandfatherly person portrayed by Burt Lancaster in
the well known movie. Another rumor that isn't true that
Al Capone used to play his banjo in the bathroom.
Wild San Francisco Tours wrote about this one, which often
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ends up in stories about the hauntings at Alcatraz. Due
to fearing that he would be killed if he dared
to play the banjo in the open, the website wrote,
he resolved to practice it in the showers. Some say
they can still hear the banjo music playing there on occasion.
Capone definitely did play banjo in the prison band called
the Rock Islanders, which gave concerts on Sundays for other inmates,
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but there's no substantiated accounts of Capone being afraid to
practice or playing in the showers. I've investigated Alcatraz many times,
and I've never once heard the sounds of a ghostly
banjo in a bathroom, and trust me, I would recognize
that sound. I've been on the Haunted Mansion ride at
Disney enough times to know a ghost banjo when I
hear one. The federal prison on Alcatraz closed on March
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twenty one, nineteen sixty three, with prisoners being located to
other federal penitentiaries. Alcatraz didn't close because of the increasingly
daring and deadly escape attempts, but rather as most things
in government go because of money. The island prison needed
an estimated three to five million dollars in repairs to
keep the prison open. Beyond that, Alcatraz was significantly more
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expensive to operate than any other federal prison, nearly three
times the cost and act. According to the Federal Bureau
of Prisons, the daily per capita costs at Alcatraz in
nineteen fifty nine was ten dollars ten dollars compared to
three dollars at Atlanta's Federal Correctional Facility. In nineteen seventy
of fire on the island damaged its historic lighthouse and
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destroyed four buildings. Two years later, Alcatraz became part of
the new Golden Gate National Recreation Area and the prison
open to the public. It's now a massively popular tourist destination,
bringing in more than one point four million visitors a year,
according to the park's conservancy. They explore the shoreline toward
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the grounds, walk through cell blocks, peer into the darkness
of solitary confinement, and quite often they experienced things they
can't explain. Visitors say they hear strange sounds and have
even claimed to have seen the old now burned lighthouse
reappear on foggy nights, illuminated by an eerie green light.
But reports of hauntings at Alcatraz aren't new. Prisoners and
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even guards were claiming to have seen terrifying things they're
nearly a century ago. While the island served as a
federal penitentiary, Several guards reported extraordinary experiences, including hearing the
sounds of sobbing and moaning, terrible smells, and reports of
what they called the Thing, an entity that was said
to appear with glowing eyes. Author Kathy Wiser wrote in
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Ghosts of Alcatraz Island other reports were made of phantom
prisoners and soldiers appearing before the guards and families who
lived on the island, especially as the prison aged and
collected more and more traumatic experiences and deaths. Guards reported
strange noises, especially from a corridor where three inmates were
shot as they were trying to escape. Reportedly, even warden Johnston,
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who did not believe in ghosts, once encountered the unmistakable
sounds of a woman's sobbing while leading several guests on
a tour of the prison. Cathy Wiser wrote, the cries
heard by the warden and the guests were described coming
from inside the walls of the dungeon. Just as the
sobbings stopped, an icy cold wind blew through the group.
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There's even a notorious story about an apparition in the
warden's house during a Christmas party. Guests reported seeing a
man appear before them, wearing a gray suit and mutton
chops sideburns. As he materialized, guards later recounted the room
turned very cold and the fire in the stove went out,
then the man vanished. Though the house has since burned down,
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people still regularly claimed to have strange experiences at that
spot on the island. The most and most terrifying paranormal
experiences have been reported inside the prison walls. Throughout cell
blocks A, B, and C. Visitors and National Park Service
employees have reported hearing mysterious screams, moaning and crying from
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disembodied voices, crashing sounds, and running footsteps. Night watchmen have
said they've repeated we heard strange clanging coming from cell
blocked C, which stops as soon as the guard opens
the door to investigate. Cell Block D, though, is another story. Altogether,
allegedly the most haunted section of the prison, the area
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was plagued with dark happenings even when prisoners were still
incarcerated there. It is believed that one night in the
nineteen forties, a prisoner of the cell was screaming in
terror about seeing a creature with glowing eyes. The next day,
officers found the prisoner strangled to death in his cell.
The ghost of that prisoner now roams the area seeking revenge.
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That revenge part might be a little outlandish, but there
have been multiple accounts of a being with glowing eyes,
especially around Cell fourteen D, where a prisoner did actually
die after claiming to have seen the creature. Visitors today
report feeling extreme cold when they enter that space, as
though there is something otherworldly in the room. A former
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guard who worked at the is in in the nineteen
forties reported that guards often saw the ghostly presence of
a man dressed in late eighteen hundreds prison attire walking
the hallway next to the strip cells. On one occasion,
when an inmate was locked in the hole, he immediately
began to scream that someone with glowing eyes was in
there with him. The nineteenth century spectral prisoner had become
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so much of a practical joke among the guards that
the convicts cries of being attacked were ignored. The inmates
screams continued well into the night, when they were suddenly
replaced by total silence. When the guards inspected the cell
the following morning, the convict was found dead, with a
terrible expression on his face and noticeable handprints around his throat.
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The autopsy revealed that the strangulation was not self inflicted.
Up next, we're going to chat about all of this
with my good friend Chris Fleming. He and I both
have investigated Alcatraz on a few occasions, and to other
we'll share our experiences in theories on why the rock
(22:04):
is so haunted. That is coming up after the break.
All right, So I am sitting here with one of mine.
I don't want to say oldest friends because we're not old,
(22:25):
but we've known each other for a very long time,
Mr Chris Fleming. I mean he's a paranormal investigator, medium researcher.
You wear many hats, don't you, Chris, Yes, I do,
amy I believe it. I often marvel over your closet. Actually,
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you always dress very well. So that aside, full disclosure
for people listening, I already explained this to Chris, but
in the epitome of first world problems. I am on
vacation right now on a very different island than the
one we're about to talk about. I'm on the Big
Island of Hawaii, and the ocean is so loud outside
my room that I'm literally recording this in the closet
(23:09):
and I'm doing my best. I'm hearing housekeeping outside, i
hear the ocean behind me. So we'll just let it
add to the ambiance as we talked about Alcatraz right exactly.
So I wanted to talk to Chris because, like me,
he has investigated Alcatraz a couple of times, and it's
one of those places that is hard to investigate. It's
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not really open to investigations. And I know the first
time I investigated was in like two thousand seven or eight.
And the way we were able to do it was
they have a lottery system for overnights, and so I
was working with a nonprofit and basically we put our
name in for the lottery for the overnight and we
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got it. And so a group of like fifteen or
twenty of us just all got to go and spend
the night on Alcatraz and It was such an interesting
cast of characters. It was me, Dave Schrader was there,
Mark and Debbie Konstantino where Patrick Burns was there. It
was just like just this really cool, like kind of
hodgepodge a group of investigators and it was really fun.
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It was one of my first really um cool experiences
with the paranormal community. So just a neat story. Now,
how did you get to investigate the Rock? It was
always one of my top ten places I wanted to go.
And when I had got hired to do the TV
show Dead Famous, we had various locations and one of
the episodes was on al Capone, So they said we're
(24:36):
going to Alcatraz and I'm like, oh my god, It's
been on my list. So we went to Alcatraz during
the middle of the day and we're there all the
way until early in the morning. The first time we
were there, and because of what I captured on my
record or some of the e v p s, when
production presented this to the network, they said, oh my god.
So they quickly greenlit a special return to Alcatraz. So
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a couple of months later we went back gout to Alcatraz,
but this time we spent an entire twenty four hours there,
which was great. You know, we didn't sleep, We just
went through the whole investigation, the whole time documenting it.
So for me, it was a dream come true. We're
very fortunate to have been able to go, and even
to have been able to go on more than one occasion. Like,
I'm well aware of how awesome that is. I did
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sleep on the island. I slept in cell Block D,
which is supposedly I got stories for you. I slept
all by myself in a cell like I find you
know how you kind of hit a wall at some
point when you're investigating, like three or four in the morning,
you're like, okay, I need a moment. I didn't sleep
that Well, it turns out so not that night. So
tell me what happened to you in cellblock D. Well,
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the first time we went there, um, they said, Chris,
you know we're gonna put you in cell block D
and fourteen because there's this story. They tell me the story.
They said that, oh great, I'm not going in there.
The story was for those that don't know, and I
don't know if you shared it already, was that an
inmate was put in there for something he did. And
to describe the cell is there's no window, there's nothing,
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it's pitch dark, and there's really nothing to sleep on,
so they were basically in there with nothing. The inmate
was screaming out that there was something in there with
him and had like these glowing eyes, and he was terrified.
The security guards are like, oh, yeah, right, you know whatever.
The next morning they go there, he's dead and from
what rumor says is that he was choked around the throat.
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He was killed and they don't know how this happened.
So it's scared other inmates. But they used this against
them where they would tend putting inmates in there that
were really bad and they'd be terrified. The didn't want
to go in there because they heard what happened in
this guy. So they put me in cell block fourteen
D and I was in there for about forty five minutes,
almost an hour, and nothing. I felt nothing. So I'm like,
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all right, this is not working this as well. Do
you want to try some of the other cells? I said, sure,
So I went down to thirteen and filmything. Went to
cell block twelve, which is just two doors down. That
is where things started happening. I started feeling some stuff
and then my recorder shut off by itself, which is
the hell out of me. Because it's very tinty inside there,
any sound is amplified, and when you're in pitch dark
(27:10):
by yourself filming yourself with a camera in your left hand,
it was startling. But what happened was I was basically
calling out, saying, come on, as prisoners here. I've had
experiences since I was a child. You know, show me something,
prove something to me that you're here. Were you afraid
of me? I played back the audio and I caught
this e VP that says, I'll face you. Oh my god,
(27:31):
Oh my god. Amy. It's it's when you listen to
the sound of the voice, like when I speak to
people and I present this e v P to them
in some of my lectures, you can tell the personality
as if there's some older guy with tattoos, you know,
obviously an inmate. But then also the voice is very rough,
like he smoked a lot, and I'm like, personality comes
through clearly. So there was other e VP twos like
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We're going to effing kill you, stuff like that, which
was very violent because here I was antagonizing them, saying,
prove yourself. So for us it was extraordinary that, Okay,
we got some contact through e v P. I did
pick up. There's a lot of residual energy that was there,
obviously from inmates being there, a lot of emotional dismay, violence.
But the one interesting thing I did connect with one spirit.
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It was actually near the laundry room, which at first
I thought was very peaceful, like, oh, I was peaceful,
it's away from everybody else where, people don't get bothered.
And then all of a sudden something connected with me
and it shifted, and for me to this day, this
still is probably one of the most emotional connections I've
had with the spirit. Beside one spirit who was trying
to find his daughters, this inmate that was there had
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killed a woman and when he was killing her, unfortunately
a child came out of one of the rooms and
he ended up killing that child. Now his soul had
died there and basically saying is I've always regretted killing
that child, and because that I could never go to heaven.
I can never leave this place. So he's basically stuck there.
And the most horrific part about that you understand this
(29:00):
with working with Chip is we will sometimes see the
visuals and the emotions of what this person experienced and
what they did. So I'm breaking down crying. It's as
if I just witnessed it right in front of me.
So still to this day, it's probably one of the
most emotional connections that I've had with a spirit and
witnessing this, but also the remorse that this soul had
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in spirit to what he had done. So that was
one interesting connection that occurred. That brings up a good point.
And I'm not a medium or psychic by any stretch,
but I've always wondered if maybe the reason why prisons
end up being haunted, not even necessarily by people who
actually passed there, is that they feel like they deserve
(29:43):
to be there, Like it's kind of this, you know,
self imposed sentence. Do you think that's true? Oh yeah,
besides the residual energy of what some of these inmates
did and how they thought, such as Robert Strolud Birdman,
he was just he had this mentality where he liked
to see people killed. He got off on watching this.
But then you had some other inmates there that were
terrified of other people. I mean, al Capone was stabbed
(30:05):
with scissors in the showers and he didn't get away
with a lot of stuff that he did at other prisons.
That's why they put him in Alcatraz was because they
knew he was not going to get away and pay
people off, which he didn't. So he was there for
about four and a half years. But you have some
there was about eight people I hear that had died there.
Spirits are going to be there, But what's interesting about
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the place is knowledge. You have the residual energy, and
some inmates like we're describing that are stuck there because
they feel they don't want to go anywhere else because
the crimes they committed. But Native Americans were there over
two hundred years ago. That was their land, and even
in recorded history regarding them, they talked about evil spirits,
that there was evil spirits on that land. Well from
(30:46):
looking at Alcatraz. When I got taken over in the
nineteen thirties, I believe, and then I got shut down
around nineteen sixty three, Native Americans took back that land
because there was a law, some decree that said FEDERI
regulated land after seven years if they don't occupied or
use it for anything, it will revert back to the
original owners. So it went back to the Native Americans.
(31:06):
So they moved in in the late nineteen sixties and
they started living in the cells and in various buildings,
and after two months they started having experience. You started
hearing yelling, some of them were getting choked and seeing
certain shadows. So some of got and they used the
term spooked because we interviewed one of the Native Americans
and he says, we got spooked and there were spooks
(31:27):
around here. So some of us moved to other sections
of the island to get away from it. But then
shortly after that, some of them started going crazy, they
said invastily. They were fighting amongst themselves, getting irritated, agitated,
emotional issues. And what eventually happened is in nineteen seventy two,
they were escorted off the island because the chaos had
(31:48):
broke up, and even some of the buildings they set
on fire, and they're like, why are you doing this?
Is supposed to bear land. So what I believe happened
is because of the spirits that have been there before.
But then also all these inmates may have psychologically started
affecting them. We know that happens in certain places you
go to it would affect you emotionally mentally, And they
left right. I mean I could see that because they
(32:10):
basically attempted to inhabit a space that never really was
a positive place. And I feel like that energy leaves
kind of quite an imprint on a location. And you
know the fact that it's an island in the middle
of like the Bay, and there's just it's very isolating,
and I mean I could see that for sure. So
to rewind for a moment, I do have that e
(32:32):
v P that you talked about earlier. I'd love to
play it really quick. And I love that it's on
a cassette recorder too, which is really neat Here we go,
all right, it's really cool. That's clear. Just get chills,
you get the goose bumps. And I remember I was
(32:53):
up at four in the morning going through all the
audio because the old cassette, you know, you got to
listen to it when you find it, then you just
extract and put an on, you know, to record it
and send it. And I jumped up out of there
going no way. Yes, I was like, holy cow. I
mean the crew, you know, the production and even the
network they're like, oh my god. And that got us
to go back there. And I remember when I went
(33:15):
back there, I played it over and over and over again,
looping it to try to antagonize the spirit. So, okay,
i'll fish you show yourself. Nothing happened with the people
as if we felt him getting angry, that was it.
So I went back into the cell by myself again,
and I started feeling tons of anxiety. I started feeling
freaked out, and I'm like, you know what, I can't
(33:36):
take this inhere. I feel like I can't even breathe.
So I started to get up to go out of
the cell, just to get away for just a little bit,
and I got shoved. Now what's amazing is on the
camera we caught an e v P that says we
got you, which they made physical contact. They shoved me. Yeah,
they showed you. Finally they were you know, I got
(33:58):
some really great e vps in the Morgue area. I
don't have them anymore. Unfortunately it's spent so many years.
But then when we went back with ghost Hunters years later,
they wouldn't allow us into the Morgue any longer. Were
you able to go in there. You know what I
cannot remember. I know we went into just about every
place that was there, cell Block D S where I
(34:19):
had the Lune room, either in the shower area, I
picked up on some stuff. I remember I was in
Robert Stroud's room picking up residual audio regarding him, and
then all of a sudden we heard these screams because
there was another female psychic that was there, Gail was
there and our producer. They were all together shooting on
the opposite side of Alcatraz of the building, and we
(34:41):
heard these screams like as if terror. So we jumped
up and Richard sent it was with me and we
chased after them, and they walk up to us like
nothing happened. So then we're thinking, was it the seagulls,
because you could hear the seagulls out. We played the
audio back and you can compare it with the sounds
of the seagulls and the screams, and it is definitely
(35:01):
female screams. Yeah, the e v p s that I
got in the morgue were female like. They were very
clearly it was a female voice, and she sounded kind
of desperate, and I believe I actually was in there
with Mark and Debbie. They got it on their recorders
as well, this woman, so it makes me wonder who
is this woman. But there were also families who lived there,
(35:22):
you know, the families of like the warden and certain
employees actually lived on the island. Children were raised there,
which is crazy to think about. And it is isolated,
but you do hear animals. You hear sea lions which
do not sound like people screaming, and you hear and
you hear, like you said, seagulls, and you'll hear like
the occasional fog horn in the distance. But it's strange
(35:45):
to be on that island and be staring at one
of the biggest cities in the world but be in
complete silence. Like I thought about how that must have
felt to some of those inmates, where they had these
tiny windows and things. For them to be so close
to something so bustling and busy and alive but just
(36:08):
out of reach, like that had to have been torture
for them. Oh yeah, and who even knows to underneath
the big rock as they call it the rock, what's
underneath their lay lines. You've got the water frequency vibration,
So it's like that all that energy is contained because
you've got the waves that are creating frequency and vibration
around it, surrounding it, that that doesn't dissipate. I mean
(36:32):
almost as if you've got a container and you're containing
everything in there, which could be what affected Native Americans
and they left. So for anybody understands is emotions, trauma, violence,
events can be recorded. We call it placed memories, also
called residual energy. In the UK they called stone tape
theory and parasychologist discussed this. William Role identified place memory
(36:56):
is that these emotions can just be recorded there. Now,
when you're put in that room from past impressions, you
know you're gonna start absorbing that. You're gonna start affecting
your own mental state, your physical body because those frequencies
are playing over and over and over again and you're
sitting right in it. So for a place like that,
many people might go there don't feel anything, but another
(37:19):
period of time they will. It all depends upon what's
playing and what they're picking up at that time. So
it's a remarkable place, you know, and you can catch
e vps of spirits that are there presently, or you
can even catch residual audio from the past of conversations
or events that occurred. Oh right, But and I actually
never thought about that how inmates maybe put there later
(37:41):
and they're also being affected by past trauma and that
kind of imprint of what happened there before they even
got there, and so that might have affected just some
of the outcomes that way and their psychological state. I mean,
I can't even imagine. And that also explains why, you know,
people made escape attempts as well. So when we were
there with Ghost Hunters, we did get a lot of
(38:02):
e v P s. At one point, Jane Grant actually
got the name of a past inmate and we're able
to cross reference it with actual records and find record
of this person actually having been there at one point,
which was pretty well. It wasn't any well known person.
They didn't have they just had to look through records.
So I thought that was really interesting. And I'm trying
(38:23):
to know. It was our hundredth episode special, so that
was a big deal. I remember it was like I
think we did that. We did a live show from
the actual Saturday Night Live studio Josh Gates hosted, and
it was so awkward. It was like they would trot
us out on stage and he would ask us questions
(38:44):
and then they would play a clip of the investigation.
So it was like this live show from Saturday Live
Studios and they would cut back to the investigation we've
done like two months before on our contrast. But it
was special. It was a big deal. Then we made
it tw two hundred episodes, but it was It was
kind of interesting. But I mean we were there for
(39:06):
two or three nights and I remember to stinky hearing
footsteps on multiple occasions. We saw a shadow figure at
least once. It was one of the first places we
tried using a laser grid. Definitely voices, lots of voices,
And so are there any other like major experiences that
you remember having, um well, besides the being pushed and
(39:27):
then also seeing the shadow person in the one room,
which we didn't capture on camera because we were taking
a break. We're all exhausted, We're seeing Yeah, there's these
benches that were on the floor, and I forget it
was a great hall or something, and I remember seeing
this just shadow form go right across the wall and
then goes away from the wall to whards three dimensional
(39:49):
and it was high up too. But it was very
vertical and then it darted right behind and said, oh
my god, I just saw a shadow and they're like, well,
we're charging our batteries. They're like, you know the cameracras,
like we charged, so we didn't even use it. So
for me, that was pretty cool. The other thing was
is that I know that there was some arguing and
there was some I want to say dissension or bickering
(40:11):
going on, but some some of the crew, which we
started getting affected, and even though my co host the
first time we were there, we started getting affected and
getting angry at each other. And I was just at
that time, I didn't realize how the place was actually
affecting us. And I know this now of course many
years of investigating, but it was affecting us as a
production crew the emotions, which is one tactic that sometimes
(40:32):
these negative spirits will do is to get you out
of there. They'll make you fight amongst yourself just to
ruin what you're doing. So for us, that was something
we obviously didn't discuss during the show, but it was
something that went on behind the scenes, and it was
I mean literally we we kind of some of us
wanted to get off that island the very first time
because what was happening, But we went back the second
time we kind of prepared ourselves to fight any of
(40:53):
that off. It is really surreal that morning that you
leave when the sun's coming up and right they come
and fetch you off the island and kind of look
back at it and you're like, what did I just do?
Like this this is the wildest thing, and it's it's
very serene and peaceful, but you kind of you're like,
I I got to leave. I got to literally escape
(41:16):
when so many others did not. It's you just nailed
it with what you said, because both times I remember
just looking back at that island going, oh my god,
you know, how could anybody swim from that rock all
the way to the shore Because the water's ice cold,
plus it's very choppy. It's like there's just no way.
And I kept saying, there's sharks here, you know, there
are I know, That's what I heard. Yeah. I grew
(41:39):
up not far from there, so you know, in the
kind of moment, like when you grow up near something,
you tend to not go there. I've learned, like if
there's some sort of touristy spot like I didn't even
go to Alcatraz, I think until that first time I
went to investigate it. And like I said, it's just
it's always going to be one of those kind of
profound paranormal moments for me. So I want to share
(42:01):
this with you too, is that we also got to
interview one of the park rangers and also one of
the inmates that was actually there, and he he called
the place a living hell. And when he was asked,
you know what type of stuff went on, he says, well,
there's a couple of things he experienced, but from some
of the other inmates, and what had been passed on
over the years was which some of the stuff we
discussed already was they heard crying, they heard moans, they're
(42:22):
yelling noises, some of them have been touched. But they
also are doors closing, and sometimes they would hear some
of the cells open and they would go look to
see who who's getting out, what's going on? And they
opening up for us and you know, there's nothing there.
And then also they had talked about hearing banjo sounds
of banjo's playing or even harmonica is late at night,
but yet nobody would be playing it. So they wandered
that was previous inmates that may have played something, but
(42:44):
yet that music would still echo through the halls of
the prison. So it's a type of place you want
to go there and kind of just sit and listen
for a period of time and move from place to
place to see what you're gonna pick up, but also
record because obviously you know a lot of e vps
we don't here only down to hurts and it goes
way below that, and record the entire time you're there,
(43:04):
and then listen to it, and you'd be surprised upon
playback some of the responses you get that that you
weren't feeling anything, but they're right beside you. And I
think that, you know, people might assume that they need
to do an overnight or and they do do night
tours that I think there are limited amounts of people
on those, so that might be easier. People do want
to bring some equipment, but even when you go during
(43:25):
the day, it's not completely packed. It's actually pretty easy
to kind of sneak off and do a little e
VP work. Or you know, they do have lots of
experiences on tours. You know, I've heard from tour guys,
from rangers, from former employees that they've had things happen
in the middle of the day with plenty of people around,
and so don't let that dissuade you. Listeners, like, definitely
(43:47):
head out there if you're in the area. Obviously, Chris
and I were really lucky to do what we were
able to do, but you can still very much go
out and have experiences. Would you go back there, Oh?
I would. I I would love to go back now,
just with kind of I feel like my methodologies and
ideas and theories have changed so dramatically since when I investigated,
(44:11):
because I think that, like I said, the first time
I was there in two thousand seven or eight, I
think we filmed with ghost Hunters in two thousand nine
or ten, So so so we're talking like twelve years ago
under very different circumstances. So hopefully one day I'll get
the opportunity if there's anybody from Alcatraz listening who can
make it happen, and we'll have Chris come on as
a guest on Kendred. I would love to go back there, especially,
(44:34):
like you said, I mean, ten years has passed, you know.
For me, it's like seventeen sixteen, but also some of
the I t C technology we have today. I mean,
my god, it's like we could an actual, real time
communicate back and forth with them, which I feel would
be fascinating to common contact again with those spirits there,
I completely agree. So let's put it out in the
(44:55):
universe to make it happen somehow, some way, so we'll
be where we go. What are you doing? Are you're
always doing things? Please tell everyone like how they can
find you, how they can see you, like what projects
you're working on? Well, thank you? Yeah, you guys can
just find me on social media, you know, Chris Fleming
Official or Chris Fleming ninety one, but then also Christopher
Fleming dot com. I'm gonna be redoing the website about
(45:15):
two months. I've been behind in my own podcast because
I've had a lot go on, and I'm gonna be
getting caught up in the next couple of weeks. But
the other thing is I filmed a brand new series
in the UK. I'm not on Help anymore. I did
two seasons of that, moved on to this other project,
and this project is supposed to come out April or May.
I'm waiting to hear and it's kind of a surprise,
so I can't say too much about it, but shot
(45:37):
nine episodes for that and it was some of the
most beautiful, most incredible places I think I've ever been to,
So I'm really excited to see how this turns out.
Well amazing. I know I always see you on social
media going to fund places, so I can't wait to watch. Well.
Thank you so much for taking the time. It's nice
to catch up. I saw you briefly in Vegas and
then you were gone, so we'll have to catch up
(45:58):
again soon person at another event or something. Thank you
so much. I appreciate all the best to you, your
family and all the listeners likewise, Thank you. Chris. Alcatraz
is one of the haunts I get asked about most often.
At the same time, it's one of those that isn't
(46:20):
really investigated all that often. What we have to go
on are mostly reports given to us by employees, park rangers,
and tourists. I'd love to get in there and really
get some answers, spend a few nights with the ghosts
in the middle of the bay, finding out just who
they are and why they linger. It's most certainly haunted
(46:40):
and I can absolutely understand why, but it may continue
being one of those large question marks in my paranormal career.
So if anyone has an inn on the rock, please
drop me a line. Until then, please visit and let
me know what you find and experience. I'm Amy Bruney
(47:02):
and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is a production
of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey.
The podcast is written and hosted by Amy Bruney. Executive
(47:24):
producers include Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. The
show is produced by rema Ill Kali and Trevor Young.
Research by Taylor Haggerdorn, Amy Bruney, and Robin Miniter. For
more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky. Listener discretion is advised.
Before I get started, I want to remind you all
that this is the season two finale of Haunted Road.
We'll be taking a break before we return with season three,
so please remain subscribed and please keep telling your friends
(00:24):
and spreading the good word. Thanks so much for your
support and listenership. I love going on this journey with
you every week. Hopefully we can keep the show rolling
for many seasons to come. Now let's get spooky. One
evening in April two eight, I found myself sitting in
(00:47):
a morgue, not really an unusual situation for an investigator
like me, but this particular morgue was very deteriorated. It
had not been in use for years and was not
open to the public. Sitting with a small group of
other investigators, we started doing e v P work in
the dark, and after a few questions, we played back
(01:08):
our recordings. To our surprise, we heard a voice answering us.
A female voice. It was faint and what she was
saying was hard to decipher, but it was most definitely
a woman. This was what surprised us, because we were
sitting in the morgue of one of the most notorious
prisons in the world, a prison that only housed a
(01:30):
male population. We were sitting in the morgue of Alcatraz.
How are we investigating at Alcatraz? You ask? A small
group of us had won a lottery for a coveted
overnight stay on the rock. At the time, they only
allowed about twenty of these each year. As that night progressed,
I needed to get a little sleep, so I settled
(01:52):
in my bed in Cell Block D, the most haunted
portion of the prison, because of course that's where i'd sleep. However,
within what seemed like moments of my eyes fluttering closed,
I heard what sounded like footsteps entered my cell. I
expected one of my friends to be playing a prank,
so I opened my eyes wide and shot up in
(02:14):
my bunk to scare them back. But I was alone.
All I could see was the faint glow of moonlight,
and all I could hear was a foghorn in the distance.
The entire building was still, and while I was supposedly alone,
I certainly didn't feel that way. It's safe to say
I did not get any sleep. I'm Amy Brunei and
(02:40):
this is haunted road. In June nineteen sixty two, Frank
Morris and brothers John and Clarence England vanished from their
cells in Alcatraz, never to be heard from again. It
(03:01):
was later discovered that the men hatched an intricate plot
to escape the island prison, tunneling holes in walls, they
disguised with false fronts, enlarging air events, and fashioning dummies
complete with human hair to pass night inspection so they
could escape from their cells undetected. They used prison issued
raincoats to make crude life fests and a pontoon type
(03:24):
raft to assist in their swim, The Federal Bureau of
Prisons wrote in a History of Alcatraz. A cell house
search turned up the drills, heads, wall segments, and other tools,
while the water search found two life fests, one in
the bay the other outside the Golden Gate, oars and
letters and photographs belonging to the Anglands that had been
(03:44):
carefully wrapped to be water tight, but no sign of
the men was found. Other prisoners had tried to escape
from the island before, but none had vanished without a trace.
This infamous event was dramatized in the nineteen seventy nine
Clint Eastwood movie Skate from Alcatraz, but that's certainly not
where the legends of the most notorious prison in American
(04:06):
history started. Alcatraz was colonized in seventeen seventy five by
Spanish explorer Juan Manuel day Eliah, who named it Alcatrasis
after the islands Pelicans, which was eventually anglicized to the
name we know today. In the mid nineteenth century, the U.
S Army built a fort on the island, which held
(04:26):
the first lighthouse on the west coast. As a fortress,
it was nearly impregnable, as technology of the time could
make it. The National Park Service has said an American Gibraltar,
and it was crowned with a brick masonry citadel, which
may have been unique in the annals of American military architecture.
While it was fashioned as a fortress, Alcatraz's fort never
(04:48):
saw a military action, and instead became a prison to
punish and detain insubordinate soldiers. Eventually, the detainee population grew
to include Confederate sympathizers and civil war and conscientious objectors.
In World War one. It also has a dark history
of imprisoning Native Americans who resisted the whitewashing imposed on
(05:10):
them by the American government, imprisoning Native activists as early
as eighteen seventy three, who were described as murderous looking
Indians by a San Francisco newspaper in eighteen nine. The
article is filled with racial stereotypes of murderous and crafty
Redskins who refused to live according to the civilized ways
(05:31):
of the white men. The National Park Service later wrote
in nineteen thirty four, the government converted the building into
a federal penitentiary. There is maybe no other prison in
America that has inspired the legends Alcatraz has or holds
the same place in pop culture. Before you tweeted me
(05:53):
know the prison from Shawshank Redemption isn't a real place.
Alcatraz has inspired movies like the nineteen sixty two film
Birdman of Alcatraz starring Burt Lancaster, that aforementioned Clint Eastwood movie,
and The Rock The nineteen nine modern masterpiece was Sean
Connery and Nicholas Cage. Public fascination comes from its prominent
(06:16):
spot in San Francisco Bay and its history of imprisoning
many of the most notorious criminals of the early twentieth century.
After gangster al Capone was convicted of tax evasion in
nineteen thirty one, he was sent to prison in Atlanta,
but in declining health and in need of isolation from
other inmates who saw him as an easy target, was
(06:37):
moved to the Rock in nineteen thirty four. Other infamous
inmates included George Machine Gun Kelly, the original not that
Guy on the Radio Today, Alvin Carpass, who was the
first ever public Enemy Number one, and Whitey Bulger, who
did time there before he rose to prominence in the
Boston Mob and spent sixteen years on the Lamb until
(06:58):
he was caught in Most of the prisoners, though, weren't
making headlines or pulling off nationally known capers. They were
inmates at other prisons who consistently disobeyed the rules and
needed stricter discipline, or who were considered violent or had
a high risk of escape. The prison on the Island
(07:18):
was made up of one building with four cellblocks A
through D, separated by hallways with names like Broadway, Times Square,
Sunrise Alley, and Sunset Boulevard. There was also a library,
a chapel, an inmates barber shop, an exercise yard, and
underground dungeon cells used for the most inhumane punishments. While
(07:40):
there was a morgue in the building, no autopsies were
actually performed there, as there were relatively few mortalities, and
the executions would happen on the mainland at California's San
Quentin State Prison. Also on the island were housing for
the warden and for the guards and their families, an
officer's club, a lighthouse, and several other operational buildings for
(08:02):
the approximately three hundred civilians living on the island, including
prison staff and their families. There was also a bowling
alley and soda fountain. If you want to see something
really cool, you can visit mp maps dot com slash
Alcatraz and compare maps of the island today with how
it looked in nineteen seventy seven, nineteen ten, and eighteen
(08:24):
sixty seven, when it was just a military fort. Though
Alcatraz could hold up to three hundred thirty six inmates,
there were usually only about two hundred sixty or two
hundred seventy inside, according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons
at any given time, Alcatraz had less than one percent
of the total federal prison population. In its years as
(08:46):
a federal prison, Alcatraz only held about fifteen hundred prisoners total.
Many prisoners actually considered the living conditions, for instance, always
one man to a sell at Alcatraz, to be better
than other federal prison sins, and several inmates actually requested
a transfer to Alcatraz, according to a history of the
prison by the Federal Bureau of Prisons. In particular, inmates
(09:09):
praised the food, and some claim to feel safer in
Alcatraz's individual cells because not having a cellmate minimized the
risk of assault. But while Alcatraz was not the America's
Devil's Island that books and movies often portrayed, it was
designed to be a prison systems prison. It's isolation made
(09:30):
the institution nearly escape proof, though there were absolutely escape attempts,
none of which are believed to be successful. But it
was the design of daily life that really made Alcatraz
a prison systems prison. Alcatraz was known for its highly structured,
monotonous daily routine that was designed to teach an inmate
to follow rules and regulations. At Alcatraz, a prisoner had
(09:54):
four rights, food, clothing, shelter, and medical care. Everything else
was a privilege that had to be earned. Some privileges
a prisoner could earn included working, corresponding with, and having
visits from family members, access to the prison library, and
recreational activities such as painting and music. Once prison officials
(10:15):
felt a man no longer posed a threat and could
follow the rules, usually after an average of five years
on Alcatraz, he could then be transferred back to another
federal prison to finish his sentence and be released. One
particularly harsh treatment was the rule of Silence, which mandated
that prisoners only speak to each other during meals or recreation.
(10:36):
It lasted through the late nineteen thirties. Conditions in the
prison were bad for white inmates, but even worse for
people of color behind bars. One African American prisoner, Robert Lipscomb,
gained a reputation among the guards for being a troublemaker
because of his repeated protests against segregation and inequality in
the prison system during the civil rights movement of the
(10:58):
nineteen sixties. Live Scum even wrote to then the U. S.
Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy about the issue and orchestrated
a protest of unequal race based treatment in the prison.
He was labeled a racial agitator. According to the National
Park Service, Alcatraz guards punished him with solitary confinement in
a cell with no light for twenty four hours at
(11:21):
a time. Solitary confinement in Alcatraz was terrible, but it
wasn't the worst punishment at the prison by far. There
was also a dungeon like cell called the Whole, a
pitch dark horror with slimy walls crawling with rats. It
was reserved for what officials deemed to be the very
worst offenders, like Robert Simmons, an African American man from Savannah, Georgia.
(11:45):
Simmons was imprisoned at Alcatraz in nineteen eighteen for being
a conscientious objector who refused to fight when he was
conscripted into service during World War One. When he was
brought to the island, Simmons was immediately put in the
hole for fourteen days. He and thirty other inmates imprisoned
for conscientious objection refused to comply with orders. They were
(12:07):
placed in iron cages, which were cells where they were
forced to stand chained to the cell door, unable to
sit or even turn around for eight hours a day.
Despite its grim history and the undeniable suffering that happened there,
not that many people died on the island. According to
Alcatraz history dot com, eight people were murdered by inmates,
(12:29):
five men committed suicide, and fifteen died from natural causes.
But then there were the men who tried to escape.
Of the thirty six men who attempted it, twenty three
were caught, six were killed by prison guards, and the
remaining seven either drowned or were presumed drowned because they
were never recovered. The government chose Alcatraz for a prison
(12:50):
because it was virtually escape proof, but that didn't stop
people from trying, sometimes in the most inventive ways. Some
tried to climb fences, only to fall one feet to
their death. Some filed bars in the windows and the
machine shop, only to likely drown in a bad storm.
In nineteen thirty eight, three inmates attacked and killed a
(13:10):
correctional officer and then climbed to the roof to attack another.
One was shot dead and the other two received life sentences.
In nineteen forty three, four prisoners took two officers hostage
escaping to the beach. Two were apprehended, one was shot
and presumed drowned, and one also presumed dead, was found
alive and recaptured after emerging from the sea cave he
(13:32):
had been hiding in for two days. In nineteen forty six, though,
was an insurrection so big it was later called the
Battle of Alcatraz. Six prisoners overpowered officers, gaining access to
weapons and the keys to the cell house. When the
men realized they didn't have the keys to the yard,
they knew they were trapped, but decided to fight. They
(13:53):
shot and killed two officers and wounded sixteen others before
the Marines were called in to help regain control of
the prison. In the end, three of the insurrectionists were killed,
two were sentenced to the death penalty, and one received
a second life sentence. Of the fourteen escape attempts, all
of them were unsuccessful. Probably there's a slim chance one
(14:16):
or two of them missing really did make it to land,
although probably not. Civilian swimmers have successfully crossed the one
one quarter miles stretched to Alcatraz, but they had the
benefit of exercise and conditioning and weren't subject to a
prison diet experts think it's unlikely any of the men
who weren't found made it to the mainland, maybe to
(14:38):
counteract some of the awful truths about the prison, and
maybe because it's just human nature to turn rumors and
stories into legends. Happier tales have grown around Alcatraz too,
but that's the thing, they're just stories. The most famous
of all of them is the Birdman of Alcatraz, a
tall tale about Robert Stroud, originally imprisoned for manslaughter, who
(14:59):
was moved moved to the federal prison in Leavenworth, Kansas
after attacking another inmate. He was then transferred to Alcatraz
after being convicted of first degree murder of eleven Worth
prison guard. Stroud raised and sold birds during his time
at that prison, even writing a book called Diseases of Canaries,
which had to be smuggled out to be published, but
(15:21):
all that stopped in Kansas. According to the Federal Bureau
of Prisons, Stroud never had any birds at Alcatraz, nor
was he the grandfatherly person portrayed by Burt Lancaster in
the well known movie. Another rumor that isn't true that
Al Capone used to play his banjo in the bathroom.
Wild San Francisco Tours wrote about this one, which often
(15:43):
ends up in stories about the hauntings at Alcatraz. Due
to fearing that he would be killed if he dared
to play the banjo in the open, the website wrote,
he resolved to practice it in the showers. Some say
they can still hear the banjo music playing there on occasion.
Capone definitely did play banjo in the prison band called
the Rock Islanders, which gave concerts on Sundays for other inmates,
(16:06):
but there's no substantiated accounts of Capone being afraid to
practice or playing in the showers. I've investigated Alcatraz many times,
and I've never once heard the sounds of a ghostly
banjo in a bathroom, and trust me, I would recognize
that sound. I've been on the Haunted Mansion ride at
Disney enough times to know a ghost banjo when I
hear one. The federal prison on Alcatraz closed on March
(16:31):
twenty one, nineteen sixty three, with prisoners being located to
other federal penitentiaries. Alcatraz didn't close because of the increasingly
daring and deadly escape attempts, but rather as most things
in government go because of money. The island prison needed
an estimated three to five million dollars in repairs to
keep the prison open. Beyond that, Alcatraz was significantly more
(16:55):
expensive to operate than any other federal prison, nearly three
times the cost and act. According to the Federal Bureau
of Prisons, the daily per capita costs at Alcatraz in
nineteen fifty nine was ten dollars ten dollars compared to
three dollars at Atlanta's Federal Correctional Facility. In nineteen seventy
of fire on the island damaged its historic lighthouse and
(17:17):
destroyed four buildings. Two years later, Alcatraz became part of
the new Golden Gate National Recreation Area and the prison
open to the public. It's now a massively popular tourist destination,
bringing in more than one point four million visitors a year,
according to the park's conservancy. They explore the shoreline toward
(17:37):
the grounds, walk through cell blocks, peer into the darkness
of solitary confinement, and quite often they experienced things they
can't explain. Visitors say they hear strange sounds and have
even claimed to have seen the old now burned lighthouse
reappear on foggy nights, illuminated by an eerie green light.
But reports of hauntings at Alcatraz aren't new. Prisoners and
(18:00):
even guards were claiming to have seen terrifying things they're
nearly a century ago. While the island served as a
federal penitentiary, Several guards reported extraordinary experiences, including hearing the
sounds of sobbing and moaning, terrible smells, and reports of
what they called the Thing, an entity that was said
to appear with glowing eyes. Author Kathy Wiser wrote in
(18:23):
Ghosts of Alcatraz Island other reports were made of phantom
prisoners and soldiers appearing before the guards and families who
lived on the island, especially as the prison aged and
collected more and more traumatic experiences and deaths. Guards reported
strange noises, especially from a corridor where three inmates were
shot as they were trying to escape. Reportedly, even warden Johnston,
(18:48):
who did not believe in ghosts, once encountered the unmistakable
sounds of a woman's sobbing while leading several guests on
a tour of the prison. Cathy Wiser wrote, the cries
heard by the warden and the guests were described coming
from inside the walls of the dungeon. Just as the
sobbings stopped, an icy cold wind blew through the group.
(19:08):
There's even a notorious story about an apparition in the
warden's house during a Christmas party. Guests reported seeing a
man appear before them, wearing a gray suit and mutton
chops sideburns. As he materialized, guards later recounted the room
turned very cold and the fire in the stove went out,
then the man vanished. Though the house has since burned down,
(19:31):
people still regularly claimed to have strange experiences at that
spot on the island. The most and most terrifying paranormal
experiences have been reported inside the prison walls. Throughout cell
blocks A, B, and C. Visitors and National Park Service
employees have reported hearing mysterious screams, moaning and crying from
(19:54):
disembodied voices, crashing sounds, and running footsteps. Night watchmen have
said they've repeated we heard strange clanging coming from cell
blocked C, which stops as soon as the guard opens
the door to investigate. Cell Block D, though, is another story. Altogether,
allegedly the most haunted section of the prison, the area
(20:14):
was plagued with dark happenings even when prisoners were still
incarcerated there. It is believed that one night in the
nineteen forties, a prisoner of the cell was screaming in
terror about seeing a creature with glowing eyes. The next day,
officers found the prisoner strangled to death in his cell.
The ghost of that prisoner now roams the area seeking revenge.
(20:37):
That revenge part might be a little outlandish, but there
have been multiple accounts of a being with glowing eyes,
especially around Cell fourteen D, where a prisoner did actually
die after claiming to have seen the creature. Visitors today
report feeling extreme cold when they enter that space, as
though there is something otherworldly in the room. A former
(20:58):
guard who worked at the is in in the nineteen
forties reported that guards often saw the ghostly presence of
a man dressed in late eighteen hundreds prison attire walking
the hallway next to the strip cells. On one occasion,
when an inmate was locked in the hole, he immediately
began to scream that someone with glowing eyes was in
there with him. The nineteenth century spectral prisoner had become
(21:20):
so much of a practical joke among the guards that
the convicts cries of being attacked were ignored. The inmates
screams continued well into the night, when they were suddenly
replaced by total silence. When the guards inspected the cell
the following morning, the convict was found dead, with a
terrible expression on his face and noticeable handprints around his throat.
(21:43):
The autopsy revealed that the strangulation was not self inflicted.
Up next, we're going to chat about all of this
with my good friend Chris Fleming. He and I both
have investigated Alcatraz on a few occasions, and to other
we'll share our experiences in theories on why the rock
(22:04):
is so haunted. That is coming up after the break.
All right, So I am sitting here with one of mine.
I don't want to say oldest friends because we're not old,
(22:25):
but we've known each other for a very long time,
Mr Chris Fleming. I mean he's a paranormal investigator, medium researcher.
You wear many hats, don't you, Chris, Yes, I do,
amy I believe it. I often marvel over your closet. Actually,
(22:46):
you always dress very well. So that aside, full disclosure
for people listening, I already explained this to Chris, but
in the epitome of first world problems. I am on
vacation right now on a very different island than the
one we're about to talk about. I'm on the Big
Island of Hawaii, and the ocean is so loud outside
my room that I'm literally recording this in the closet
(23:09):
and I'm doing my best. I'm hearing housekeeping outside, i
hear the ocean behind me. So we'll just let it
add to the ambiance as we talked about Alcatraz right exactly.
So I wanted to talk to Chris because, like me,
he has investigated Alcatraz a couple of times, and it's
one of those places that is hard to investigate. It's
(23:32):
not really open to investigations. And I know the first
time I investigated was in like two thousand seven or eight.
And the way we were able to do it was
they have a lottery system for overnights, and so I
was working with a nonprofit and basically we put our
name in for the lottery for the overnight and we
(23:53):
got it. And so a group of like fifteen or
twenty of us just all got to go and spend
the night on Alcatraz and It was such an interesting
cast of characters. It was me, Dave Schrader was there,
Mark and Debbie Konstantino where Patrick Burns was there. It
was just like just this really cool, like kind of
hodgepodge a group of investigators and it was really fun.
(24:15):
It was one of my first really um cool experiences
with the paranormal community. So just a neat story. Now,
how did you get to investigate the Rock? It was
always one of my top ten places I wanted to go.
And when I had got hired to do the TV
show Dead Famous, we had various locations and one of
the episodes was on al Capone, So they said we're
(24:36):
going to Alcatraz and I'm like, oh my god, It's
been on my list. So we went to Alcatraz during
the middle of the day and we're there all the
way until early in the morning. The first time we
were there, and because of what I captured on my
record or some of the e v p s, when
production presented this to the network, they said, oh my god.
So they quickly greenlit a special return to Alcatraz. So
(24:58):
a couple of months later we went back gout to Alcatraz,
but this time we spent an entire twenty four hours there,
which was great. You know, we didn't sleep, We just
went through the whole investigation, the whole time documenting it.
So for me, it was a dream come true. We're
very fortunate to have been able to go, and even
to have been able to go on more than one occasion. Like,
I'm well aware of how awesome that is. I did
(25:20):
sleep on the island. I slept in cell Block D,
which is supposedly I got stories for you. I slept
all by myself in a cell like I find you
know how you kind of hit a wall at some
point when you're investigating, like three or four in the morning,
you're like, okay, I need a moment. I didn't sleep
that Well, it turns out so not that night. So
tell me what happened to you in cellblock D. Well,
(25:42):
the first time we went there, um, they said, Chris,
you know we're gonna put you in cell block D
and fourteen because there's this story. They tell me the story.
They said that, oh great, I'm not going in there.
The story was for those that don't know, and I
don't know if you shared it already, was that an
inmate was put in there for something he did. And
to describe the cell is there's no window, there's nothing,
(26:04):
it's pitch dark, and there's really nothing to sleep on,
so they were basically in there with nothing. The inmate
was screaming out that there was something in there with
him and had like these glowing eyes, and he was terrified.
The security guards are like, oh, yeah, right, you know whatever.
The next morning they go there, he's dead and from
what rumor says is that he was choked around the throat.
(26:25):
He was killed and they don't know how this happened.
So it's scared other inmates. But they used this against
them where they would tend putting inmates in there that
were really bad and they'd be terrified. The didn't want
to go in there because they heard what happened in
this guy. So they put me in cell block fourteen
D and I was in there for about forty five minutes,
almost an hour, and nothing. I felt nothing. So I'm like,
(26:48):
all right, this is not working this as well. Do
you want to try some of the other cells? I said, sure,
So I went down to thirteen and filmything. Went to
cell block twelve, which is just two doors down. That
is where things started happening. I started feeling some stuff
and then my recorder shut off by itself, which is
the hell out of me. Because it's very tinty inside there,
any sound is amplified, and when you're in pitch dark
(27:10):
by yourself filming yourself with a camera in your left hand,
it was startling. But what happened was I was basically
calling out, saying, come on, as prisoners here. I've had
experiences since I was a child. You know, show me something,
prove something to me that you're here. Were you afraid
of me? I played back the audio and I caught
this e VP that says, I'll face you. Oh my god,
(27:31):
Oh my god. Amy. It's it's when you listen to
the sound of the voice, like when I speak to
people and I present this e v P to them
in some of my lectures, you can tell the personality
as if there's some older guy with tattoos, you know,
obviously an inmate. But then also the voice is very rough,
like he smoked a lot, and I'm like, personality comes
through clearly. So there was other e VP twos like
(27:53):
We're going to effing kill you, stuff like that, which
was very violent because here I was antagonizing them, saying,
prove yourself. So for us it was extraordinary that, Okay,
we got some contact through e v P. I did
pick up. There's a lot of residual energy that was there,
obviously from inmates being there, a lot of emotional dismay, violence.
But the one interesting thing I did connect with one spirit.
(28:16):
It was actually near the laundry room, which at first
I thought was very peaceful, like, oh, I was peaceful,
it's away from everybody else where, people don't get bothered.
And then all of a sudden something connected with me
and it shifted, and for me to this day, this
still is probably one of the most emotional connections I've
had with the spirit. Beside one spirit who was trying
to find his daughters, this inmate that was there had
(28:39):
killed a woman and when he was killing her, unfortunately
a child came out of one of the rooms and
he ended up killing that child. Now his soul had
died there and basically saying is I've always regretted killing
that child, and because that I could never go to heaven.
I can never leave this place. So he's basically stuck there.
And the most horrific part about that you understand this
(29:00):
with working with Chip is we will sometimes see the
visuals and the emotions of what this person experienced and
what they did. So I'm breaking down crying. It's as
if I just witnessed it right in front of me.
So still to this day, it's probably one of the
most emotional connections that I've had with a spirit and
witnessing this, but also the remorse that this soul had
(29:22):
in spirit to what he had done. So that was
one interesting connection that occurred. That brings up a good point.
And I'm not a medium or psychic by any stretch,
but I've always wondered if maybe the reason why prisons
end up being haunted, not even necessarily by people who
actually passed there, is that they feel like they deserve
(29:43):
to be there, Like it's kind of this, you know,
self imposed sentence. Do you think that's true? Oh yeah,
besides the residual energy of what some of these inmates
did and how they thought, such as Robert Strolud Birdman,
he was just he had this mentality where he liked
to see people killed. He got off on watching this.
But then you had some other inmates there that were
terrified of other people. I mean, al Capone was stabbed
(30:05):
with scissors in the showers and he didn't get away
with a lot of stuff that he did at other prisons.
That's why they put him in Alcatraz was because they
knew he was not going to get away and pay
people off, which he didn't. So he was there for
about four and a half years. But you have some
there was about eight people I hear that had died there.
Spirits are going to be there, But what's interesting about
(30:25):
the place is knowledge. You have the residual energy, and
some inmates like we're describing that are stuck there because
they feel they don't want to go anywhere else because
the crimes they committed. But Native Americans were there over
two hundred years ago. That was their land, and even
in recorded history regarding them, they talked about evil spirits,
that there was evil spirits on that land. Well from
(30:46):
looking at Alcatraz. When I got taken over in the
nineteen thirties, I believe, and then I got shut down
around nineteen sixty three, Native Americans took back that land
because there was a law, some decree that said FEDERI
regulated land after seven years if they don't occupied or
use it for anything, it will revert back to the
original owners. So it went back to the Native Americans.
(31:06):
So they moved in in the late nineteen sixties and
they started living in the cells and in various buildings,
and after two months they started having experience. You started
hearing yelling, some of them were getting choked and seeing
certain shadows. So some of got and they used the
term spooked because we interviewed one of the Native Americans
and he says, we got spooked and there were spooks
(31:27):
around here. So some of us moved to other sections
of the island to get away from it. But then
shortly after that, some of them started going crazy, they
said invastily. They were fighting amongst themselves, getting irritated, agitated,
emotional issues. And what eventually happened is in nineteen seventy two,
they were escorted off the island because the chaos had
(31:48):
broke up, and even some of the buildings they set
on fire, and they're like, why are you doing this?
Is supposed to bear land. So what I believe happened
is because of the spirits that have been there before.
But then also all these inmates may have psychologically started
affecting them. We know that happens in certain places you
go to it would affect you emotionally mentally, And they
left right. I mean I could see that because they
(32:10):
basically attempted to inhabit a space that never really was
a positive place. And I feel like that energy leaves
kind of quite an imprint on a location. And you
know the fact that it's an island in the middle
of like the Bay, and there's just it's very isolating,
and I mean I could see that for sure. So
to rewind for a moment, I do have that e
(32:32):
v P that you talked about earlier. I'd love to
play it really quick. And I love that it's on
a cassette recorder too, which is really neat Here we go,
all right, it's really cool. That's clear. Just get chills,
you get the goose bumps. And I remember I was
(32:53):
up at four in the morning going through all the
audio because the old cassette, you know, you got to
listen to it when you find it, then you just
extract and put an on, you know, to record it
and send it. And I jumped up out of there
going no way. Yes, I was like, holy cow. I
mean the crew, you know, the production and even the
network they're like, oh my god. And that got us
to go back there. And I remember when I went
(33:15):
back there, I played it over and over and over again,
looping it to try to antagonize the spirit. So, okay,
i'll fish you show yourself. Nothing happened with the people
as if we felt him getting angry, that was it.
So I went back into the cell by myself again,
and I started feeling tons of anxiety. I started feeling
freaked out, and I'm like, you know what, I can't
(33:36):
take this inhere. I feel like I can't even breathe.
So I started to get up to go out of
the cell, just to get away for just a little bit,
and I got shoved. Now what's amazing is on the
camera we caught an e v P that says we
got you, which they made physical contact. They shoved me. Yeah,
they showed you. Finally they were you know, I got
(33:58):
some really great e vps in the Morgue area. I
don't have them anymore. Unfortunately it's spent so many years.
But then when we went back with ghost Hunters years later,
they wouldn't allow us into the Morgue any longer. Were
you able to go in there. You know what I
cannot remember. I know we went into just about every
place that was there, cell Block D S where I
(34:19):
had the Lune room, either in the shower area, I
picked up on some stuff. I remember I was in
Robert Stroud's room picking up residual audio regarding him, and
then all of a sudden we heard these screams because
there was another female psychic that was there, Gail was
there and our producer. They were all together shooting on
the opposite side of Alcatraz of the building, and we
(34:41):
heard these screams like as if terror. So we jumped
up and Richard sent it was with me and we
chased after them, and they walk up to us like
nothing happened. So then we're thinking, was it the seagulls,
because you could hear the seagulls out. We played the
audio back and you can compare it with the sounds
of the seagulls and the screams, and it is definitely
(35:01):
female screams. Yeah, the e v p s that I
got in the morgue were female like. They were very
clearly it was a female voice, and she sounded kind
of desperate, and I believe I actually was in there
with Mark and Debbie. They got it on their recorders
as well, this woman, so it makes me wonder who
is this woman. But there were also families who lived there,
(35:22):
you know, the families of like the warden and certain
employees actually lived on the island. Children were raised there,
which is crazy to think about. And it is isolated,
but you do hear animals. You hear sea lions which
do not sound like people screaming, and you hear and
you hear, like you said, seagulls, and you'll hear like
the occasional fog horn in the distance. But it's strange
(35:45):
to be on that island and be staring at one
of the biggest cities in the world but be in
complete silence. Like I thought about how that must have
felt to some of those inmates, where they had these
tiny windows and things. For them to be so close
to something so bustling and busy and alive but just
(36:08):
out of reach, like that had to have been torture
for them. Oh yeah, and who even knows to underneath
the big rock as they call it the rock, what's
underneath their lay lines. You've got the water frequency vibration,
So it's like that all that energy is contained because
you've got the waves that are creating frequency and vibration
around it, surrounding it, that that doesn't dissipate. I mean
(36:32):
almost as if you've got a container and you're containing
everything in there, which could be what affected Native Americans
and they left. So for anybody understands is emotions, trauma, violence,
events can be recorded. We call it placed memories, also
called residual energy. In the UK they called stone tape
theory and parasychologist discussed this. William Role identified place memory
(36:56):
is that these emotions can just be recorded there. Now,
when you're put in that room from past impressions, you
know you're gonna start absorbing that. You're gonna start affecting
your own mental state, your physical body because those frequencies
are playing over and over and over again and you're
sitting right in it. So for a place like that,
many people might go there don't feel anything, but another
(37:19):
period of time they will. It all depends upon what's
playing and what they're picking up at that time. So
it's a remarkable place, you know, and you can catch
e vps of spirits that are there presently, or you
can even catch residual audio from the past of conversations
or events that occurred. Oh right, But and I actually
never thought about that how inmates maybe put there later
(37:41):
and they're also being affected by past trauma and that
kind of imprint of what happened there before they even
got there, and so that might have affected just some
of the outcomes that way and their psychological state. I mean,
I can't even imagine. And that also explains why, you know,
people made escape attempts as well. So when we were
there with Ghost Hunters, we did get a lot of
(38:02):
e v P s. At one point, Jane Grant actually
got the name of a past inmate and we're able
to cross reference it with actual records and find record
of this person actually having been there at one point,
which was pretty well. It wasn't any well known person.
They didn't have they just had to look through records.
So I thought that was really interesting. And I'm trying
(38:23):
to know. It was our hundredth episode special, so that
was a big deal. I remember it was like I
think we did that. We did a live show from
the actual Saturday Night Live studio Josh Gates hosted, and
it was so awkward. It was like they would trot
us out on stage and he would ask us questions
(38:44):
and then they would play a clip of the investigation.
So it was like this live show from Saturday Live
Studios and they would cut back to the investigation we've
done like two months before on our contrast. But it
was special. It was a big deal. Then we made
it tw two hundred episodes, but it was It was
kind of interesting. But I mean we were there for
(39:06):
two or three nights and I remember to stinky hearing
footsteps on multiple occasions. We saw a shadow figure at
least once. It was one of the first places we
tried using a laser grid. Definitely voices, lots of voices,
And so are there any other like major experiences that
you remember having, um well, besides the being pushed and
(39:27):
then also seeing the shadow person in the one room,
which we didn't capture on camera because we were taking
a break. We're all exhausted, We're seeing Yeah, there's these
benches that were on the floor, and I forget it
was a great hall or something, and I remember seeing
this just shadow form go right across the wall and
then goes away from the wall to whards three dimensional
(39:49):
and it was high up too. But it was very
vertical and then it darted right behind and said, oh
my god, I just saw a shadow and they're like, well,
we're charging our batteries. They're like, you know the cameracras,
like we charged, so we didn't even use it. So
for me, that was pretty cool. The other thing was
is that I know that there was some arguing and
there was some I want to say dissension or bickering
(40:11):
going on, but some some of the crew, which we
started getting affected, and even though my co host the
first time we were there, we started getting affected and
getting angry at each other. And I was just at
that time, I didn't realize how the place was actually
affecting us. And I know this now of course many
years of investigating, but it was affecting us as a
production crew the emotions, which is one tactic that sometimes
(40:32):
these negative spirits will do is to get you out
of there. They'll make you fight amongst yourself just to
ruin what you're doing. So for us, that was something
we obviously didn't discuss during the show, but it was
something that went on behind the scenes, and it was
I mean literally we we kind of some of us
wanted to get off that island the very first time
because what was happening, But we went back the second
time we kind of prepared ourselves to fight any of
(40:53):
that off. It is really surreal that morning that you
leave when the sun's coming up and right they come
and fetch you off the island and kind of look
back at it and you're like, what did I just do?
Like this this is the wildest thing, and it's it's
very serene and peaceful, but you kind of you're like,
I I got to leave. I got to literally escape
(41:16):
when so many others did not. It's you just nailed
it with what you said, because both times I remember
just looking back at that island going, oh my god,
you know, how could anybody swim from that rock all
the way to the shore Because the water's ice cold,
plus it's very choppy. It's like there's just no way.
And I kept saying, there's sharks here, you know, there
are I know, That's what I heard. Yeah. I grew
(41:39):
up not far from there, so you know, in the
kind of moment, like when you grow up near something,
you tend to not go there. I've learned, like if
there's some sort of touristy spot like I didn't even
go to Alcatraz, I think until that first time I
went to investigate it. And like I said, it's just
it's always going to be one of those kind of
profound paranormal moments for me. So I want to share
(42:01):
this with you too, is that we also got to
interview one of the park rangers and also one of
the inmates that was actually there, and he he called
the place a living hell. And when he was asked,
you know what type of stuff went on, he says, well,
there's a couple of things he experienced, but from some
of the other inmates, and what had been passed on
over the years was which some of the stuff we
discussed already was they heard crying, they heard moans, they're
(42:22):
yelling noises, some of them have been touched. But they
also are doors closing, and sometimes they would hear some
of the cells open and they would go look to
see who who's getting out, what's going on? And they
opening up for us and you know, there's nothing there.
And then also they had talked about hearing banjo sounds
of banjo's playing or even harmonica is late at night,
but yet nobody would be playing it. So they wandered
that was previous inmates that may have played something, but
(42:44):
yet that music would still echo through the halls of
the prison. So it's a type of place you want
to go there and kind of just sit and listen
for a period of time and move from place to
place to see what you're gonna pick up, but also
record because obviously you know a lot of e vps
we don't here only down to hurts and it goes
way below that, and record the entire time you're there,
(43:04):
and then listen to it, and you'd be surprised upon
playback some of the responses you get that that you
weren't feeling anything, but they're right beside you. And I
think that, you know, people might assume that they need
to do an overnight or and they do do night
tours that I think there are limited amounts of people
on those, so that might be easier. People do want
to bring some equipment, but even when you go during
(43:25):
the day, it's not completely packed. It's actually pretty easy
to kind of sneak off and do a little e
VP work. Or you know, they do have lots of
experiences on tours. You know, I've heard from tour guys,
from rangers, from former employees that they've had things happen
in the middle of the day with plenty of people around,
and so don't let that dissuade you. Listeners, like, definitely
(43:47):
head out there if you're in the area. Obviously, Chris
and I were really lucky to do what we were
able to do, but you can still very much go
out and have experiences. Would you go back there, Oh?
I would. I I would love to go back now,
just with kind of I feel like my methodologies and
ideas and theories have changed so dramatically since when I investigated,
(44:11):
because I think that, like I said, the first time
I was there in two thousand seven or eight, I
think we filmed with ghost Hunters in two thousand nine
or ten, So so so we're talking like twelve years ago
under very different circumstances. So hopefully one day I'll get
the opportunity if there's anybody from Alcatraz listening who can
make it happen, and we'll have Chris come on as
a guest on Kendred. I would love to go back there, especially,
(44:34):
like you said, I mean, ten years has passed, you know.
For me, it's like seventeen sixteen, but also some of
the I t C technology we have today. I mean,
my god, it's like we could an actual, real time
communicate back and forth with them, which I feel would
be fascinating to common contact again with those spirits there,
I completely agree. So let's put it out in the
(44:55):
universe to make it happen somehow, some way, so we'll
be where we go. What are you doing? Are you're
always doing things? Please tell everyone like how they can
find you, how they can see you, like what projects
you're working on? Well, thank you? Yeah, you guys can
just find me on social media, you know, Chris Fleming
Official or Chris Fleming ninety one, but then also Christopher
Fleming dot com. I'm gonna be redoing the website about
(45:15):
two months. I've been behind in my own podcast because
I've had a lot go on, and I'm gonna be
getting caught up in the next couple of weeks. But
the other thing is I filmed a brand new series
in the UK. I'm not on Help anymore. I did
two seasons of that, moved on to this other project,
and this project is supposed to come out April or May.
I'm waiting to hear and it's kind of a surprise,
so I can't say too much about it, but shot
(45:37):
nine episodes for that and it was some of the
most beautiful, most incredible places I think I've ever been to,
So I'm really excited to see how this turns out.
Well amazing. I know I always see you on social
media going to fund places, so I can't wait to watch. Well.
Thank you so much for taking the time. It's nice
to catch up. I saw you briefly in Vegas and
then you were gone, so we'll have to catch up
(45:58):
again soon person at another event or something. Thank you
so much. I appreciate all the best to you, your
family and all the listeners likewise, Thank you. Chris. Alcatraz
is one of the haunts I get asked about most often.
At the same time, it's one of those that isn't
(46:20):
really investigated all that often. What we have to go
on are mostly reports given to us by employees, park rangers,
and tourists. I'd love to get in there and really
get some answers, spend a few nights with the ghosts
in the middle of the bay, finding out just who
they are and why they linger. It's most certainly haunted
(46:40):
and I can absolutely understand why, but it may continue
being one of those large question marks in my paranormal career.
So if anyone has an inn on the rock, please
drop me a line. Until then, please visit and let
me know what you find and experience. I'm Amy Bruney
(47:02):
and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is a production
of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Mankey.
The podcast is written and hosted by Amy Bruney. Executive
(47:24):
producers include Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. The
show is produced by rema Ill Kali and Trevor Young.
Research by Taylor Haggerdorn, Amy Bruney, and Robin Miniter. For
more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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