April 5, 2023 • 41 mins
A terrible accident one summer day changed the entire course of the Houghton family’s history, leaving behind a legacy of tragedy and a mansion full of harrowing memories.
That mansion is also full of ghosts — the restless spirits of those who can’t forgive themselves, and those who can’t forget.
Special Guest: Tim Weisberg
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm
and Mild from Aaron Mink listener Discretion is advised. In
nineteen fourteen, Albert Charles Houghton had it all. A prominent
businessman and a respected local politician, Houghton enjoyed a reputation
(00:25):
throughout New England as a man whose influence extended well
beyond the bounds of his small town in the Berkshires.
He also had a large and loving family with his
wife and daughters, most of whom had married and were
starting families of their own. Hoton lived in the grandest
house in North Adams. He had everything until he didn't.
(00:47):
A terrible accident one summer day changed the entire course
of the Houghton family's history, leaving behind a legacy of
tragedy and a mansion full of harrowing memories. That mansion
is all so full of ghosts, the restless spirits of
those who can't forgive themselves and those who can't forget.
I'm Amy Brunei, and this is Haunted Road Today. North
(01:22):
Adams is the smallest city in Massachusetts, nestled in the
Berkshire Mountains of western mass The city is best known
as the home of mass Mocha, the Massachusetts Museum of
Contemporary Art, but once North Adams was a center of
manufacturing during the Industrial Revolution, topping out at a population
of twenty four in nineteen hundred, ac Houghton wasn't just
(01:45):
an important figure in the history of North Adams. He
was seminal in the founding of the city itself, which
was incorporated in eighteen seventy eight and became an official
city in eighteen ninety five. Over the course of his career,
he served as bank president, away director, and president of
Arnold Printworks, which is now the home of Masmocha. In addition,
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he served as a delegate at the eighteen ninety two
Democratic National Convention and as a commissioner to the Chicago
World's Fair in eighteen ninety three, and was a trustee
of both Williams College and Boston University. Hoton was also
the first mayor of North Adams, taking office in eighteen
ninety six. Just after the end of his first term,
(02:26):
he commissioned the Houghton Mansion, which would be the third
home for his family in the city. The seventeen room
home was built in the neo Classical Revival style, painted
off white with gray blue accents on the windows and columns.
The mansion featured Greek architectural details like etchings and engravings,
and a roof of Spanish tiles inside Italian marble fireplaces
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reflected the glow of fires on mahogany paneled walls and ceilings.
According to the Ghosts of the Berkshires, the house was
intended to be a place where Houghton could enjoy happy
times with his beloved family as he retired from public life.
Outside in the yard, the Houghton Mansion has a large
rock wall separating the yard from the side street. The
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wall was constructed from rocks removed from the Hoosac Tunnel,
which connects North Adams to a neighboring town nicknamed the
Bloody Pit. The Hoosac Tunnel has its own dark history.
More than two hundred workers died during its construction, and
people to this day report lantern holding apparitions and mysterious voices.
Houghton's connection to the tunnel goes beyond building materials. For
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a time, he was the state director of the Fitchburg Railroad,
which owned the Hoosac Tunnel at the time. The mansion
was built. The Houghton family consisted of Acy Houghton, his
wife Cornelia, and daughters Florence, Susan, Alice, and Mary. Their
first child, Laura, had died at the age of three
in eighteen seventy one. Their remaining daughters were grown and
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only unmarried. Mary moved into the mansion with her parents.
In nineteen fourteen, an event occurred that which change the
family's fate forever. In the spring of that year, Houghton
bought his first automobile, a seven passenger pierced Arrow touring vehicle.
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He tasked John Witters, the family's servant of more than
forty years, with learning to drive the car, but Whitters
did so reluctantly, citing his age and his poor health
as reasons he should not be the family's chauffeur, but
Houghton insisted. According to a contemporary newspaper account, it is
stated that the driver had taken up the duties of
(04:36):
chauffeur under protest, but that his employer had insisted that
inasmuch as Witters had been such an excellent and careful coachman,
that he would also be a careful auto driver. It
has also stated that Whitter's health had not been of
the best during the spring and summer. On the morning
of August first, nineteen fourteen, the North Adams Evening Transcript
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reported Houghton and his youngest thirty eight year old Mary,
along with family friends doctor Robert Hutton and missus Sibil Hutton,
took the car on a pleasure trip to Bennington, just
across the border in Vermont, but the car would never
reach its destination. At nine thirty am in pound All, Vermont,
the car ascended a steep hill which was known to
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locals as a dangerous place for cars on the road.
A construction crew and team of horses blocked the right
side of the road. The Bennington Evening Banner reported that
there have been several narrow escapes there. The old railing
was taken down while the road was being repaired, and
a new one was to have been put up when
the work was completed. John Whitters pulled to the left
of the road to avoid the construction The wheel of
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the car went onto the soft shoulder, causing Witters to
lose control. Some witnesses believed that he mistook the accelerator
of the car for the break, and some suggested that
a cloud of dust impaired his vision. Though the vehicle
was only going twelve miles per hour, the driver wasn't
able to regain control. The car slid down a steep embankment,
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flipping three times and rolling fifty feet before landing in
a pasture. Robert Hutton, Sibyl Hutton, Ac Houghton, and John
Witters were thrown from the car. Whitters and Robert Hutton
only sustained minor injuries, but Houghton suffered a fractured right shoulder.
Sibil Hutton was crushed by the vehicle and died at
the scene. She was thirty three years old. Mary Houghton
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was trapped in the backseat of the crushed vehicle and
had to be removed by rescuers. The Bennington Evening Banner
reported that she was badly crushed by the car and
her spine was fractured. By three pm, the thirty seven
year old Mary had passed away. According to the North
Adams Evening Transcript, the area was so dangerous that many
of those present after it occurred said that they were
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surprised that a catastrophe had not happened there before. The
news of the accident shocked the town's residence, who gathered
together in mourning. The North Adams Evening Transcript reported that
news of the accident spread like wildfire throughout the city,
and groups of prominent citizens gathered on main Street with
anxious faces and expressions of sorrow upon their countenances. One
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newspaper described Mary as leading a quiet life of self sacrifice,
explaining how she devoted herself to caring for her father,
whose health had been precarious for some years past. Another
account theorized that Houghton might not survive much longer because
of the ordeal. The Bennington Banner wrote, the shock of
the accident and what he has sustain than the death
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of a favorite daughter, have been so depressing that a
fatal termination would not be at all surprising. But the
first to die in the fallout of the accident would
be John Whitters. Though he was under the watch of
family gardener James Hines, who had stayed the night with
Witterers out of concern for his mental health, he was
able to slip away from the gardener's watch at four
am on the morning of August second, nineteen fourteen, the
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day following the accident, Whitters ended his own life, shooting
himself in the head with a volver in the basement
of the mansion stables. He was sixty three years old.
According to the Brattleboro Daily Reformer, Whitters brooded over the
results of the accident, remarking over and over and over
again that he could not live as he had caused
the death of Miss Mary and her friend. The Berkshire
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County Eagle reported that he continually kept saying, I wish
it was I and not the girls. Witters was buried
in the Houghton family plot. Just nine days later, ac
Houghton passed away in his home. His health had already
been failing, and the injuries he sustained in the accident,
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coupled with the magnitude of his losses, must have surely
contributed to his demise. Some said Houghton died of a
broken heart. He was seventy years old when he passed.
The whole town of North Adams mourned their former mayor
on August thirteenth, nineteen fourteen. The day of his funeral,
much of the town shut down. According to the Orkshire
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Evening Eagle, the Merchants Association attended in a body and
all of the public buildings of the city are draped
in mourning. The city Hall, public library, fire stations, banks
and stores, as well as the transcript office present a
somber appearance with their long streamers of black and white bunting.
The sole topic of conversation yesterday was the big things
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that mister Houghton had accomplished for the city and her
people during his lifetime, and the loss the city had
sustained in his death. The stores of the city closed
at two o'clock and will remain closed until evening. The
Arnold print Works, of which he was head, and the
Hoosac Cotton Mills, which he formerly owned, closed at noon
and remained closed for the day. The wheels and all
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the factories of the city will be stopped from four
to four oh five. The public library closed this afternoon
from two to five out of respect for the late
ex mayor. The reason all the machines stopped in the
city at four pm was because that was the precise
moment of Houghton's interment into the ground. The North Adam's
Evening Transcript described these as unusual marks of respect after
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the accident, one of Houghton's surviving daughters Florence moved into
the Houghton Mansion with her husband, William Gallup, who had
been a business partner of her father. Florence looked after
her mother, Cordelia Houghton, until the older woman died in
nineteen sixteen. The family sold the home to the Lafayette
Freemasons in nineteen twenty seven, who added another ten thousand
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square feet to the mansion's fifteen thousand square feet for
a Masonic temple, which was dedicated in nineteen twenty nine.
In twenty seventeen, the Masons sold the building due to
financial concerns. It was purchased by hotel developer Benjamin Spenson
for one hundred and sixty thousand dollars. Today, the mansion
looks much the same as it did in its heyday,
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with the exception of some peeling paint. The house isn't
currently in use and sits empty, or I should say
it's empty of living inhabitants. The Houghton Mansion has been
described as one of the most haunted houses in all
of New England by a regional PBS station. Over the years,
many people have reported unusual incidents there, which are largely
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attributed to the after effects of the terrible auto accident
that befell the Houghton family. Some also speculate that a
curse may have been placed on the Houghton family as
a result of the Hoosac Tunnel rocks used for the
houses stone wall. Multiple Masons claimed to have paranormal experiences
during the buildings ninety years as a Freemason temple. Two
Masons spending the night there once heard the door of
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the building open and shut, followed by the sound of
heavy footsteps. They assumed the sounds were being made by
fellow Masons, but when the men went to greet them,
no one was there and there were no footprints in
the snow outside. Masons had such striking encounters in the
mansion that in two thousand and four, Masons Josh and
Nick Mantello started a ghost hunting group, Berkshire Paranormal, in
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response to the experiences they had of the Houghton mansion.
Masons have reported seeing darting shadows in the temple area.
Some who have had experiences in the home claim that
if you wrap out the opening rhythm of shaven a
haircut and the temple, a spirit will respond with two
knocks for two bits I think that's a method that
we perfected on ghost hunters. By the way, visitors to
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the mansion have often claimed to have seen Mary Houghton
on the upper floors and to hear her voice. According
to the Haunted Places, visitors also claim to have felt
an overwhelming sense of sadness at Mary Houghton's room. Ghosts
of the Berkshire's right set. When sitting in one particular chair,
visitors often claim to be touched by an unseen hand.
Ac Houghton has been frequently seen and heard in the house,
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especially in his bedroom. There, his bedroom door is set
to open and close spontaneously, and items in his roomors
sometimes moved when no one is present. According to Paranormal
hotspots dot com, when AC's spirit is present, he is
often perceived by many sensitives and psychics as an angry
spirit does not wish to have strangers in his house.
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Former driver John Witters has been spotted in the house.
He's said to take the form of shadows throughout the space.
The closet doors in what's thought to have been his
third floor bedroom are also said to move on their own,
and some say they've heard footsteps on the servants stairs
leading up to his room. The same deep sadness felt
in Mary's room has also been reported here. At least
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one paranormal group has claimed to record an e VP
that's said get out in Witters's bedroom. In the kitchen,
people have reported seeing ghostly footprints on the just mopped floor.
According to the Haunted Places site, the basement is said
to be one of the most haunted spots in the
entire property. In particular, the ghost of a young girl
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can often be seen walking across the basement and fading
into the walls. The girl has been heard giggling and murmuring,
and has been seen peeking around doors. She's even a
little bit of a prankster. Some have claimed that she's
tapped them on the legs, pulled their pant legs, or
tug their hair. The Masons reported seeing her dark shape
moving around the basement, as well as small, colorful sparks
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of light flashing about them in the dark that they
have nicknamed Sparkle's one witness. When she appeared on Ghost Hunters,
had a different story to share. She said she felt
very uncomfortable, like the dark spirit didn't want me down here.
Now I know someone who claims he had the most
powerful paranormal experience of his life at the Houghton Mansion.
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To this day, he counts it as one of the
most incredible locations he has ever investigated, and he has
some great insight and experiences to share. Up next, we'll
be talking to paranormal researcher Tim Weisberg. That's coming up
after the break. Now, I am joined by one of
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my oldest not agewise, but longest, I don't know, one
of the first people I met really in the paranormal field,
mister Tim Weisberg. Who is You're You're a researcher, you're
a host, you're a writer. Like you've done it all.
So welcome, mister Weisberg. Thank you for having me. It's
a yeah, just a jack of all trades. Whatever you
(15:17):
need in the paranormal I'm your guy. There have been
a number of times over the years where I text
you the most random stuff and you always come through
from you, so I super appreciate you. Now, I think
I knew you because i'd been on the show when
I lived in California, but I can't remember the first
time I met you, but it has been I think
it's been like seventeen or eighteen years. It's been a
(15:38):
long time. Yeah, yeah. And what's great about it is
that we were able to kind of forge that friendship
across the country so that when we finally did meet
in person, it didn't seem weird at all. No, not
at all. We just knew we were weird and that
was enough, right, And and that general weirdness that we have,
you know, it doesn't really work for everybody else, but
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when you get somebody else said has that weirdness, it
becomes like a magnet. Well, I'm glad you're still a
part of my world, as Arial says. But anyways, so
I reached out to you when it came to Houghton
Mansion just because I guess it would be considered almost
a local hunt for us because it's in Massachusetts, it's
a few hours away, and I know you've investigated it
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a number of times. Now. I had this kind of
weird Mandela effect thing happening before today, Like I really
felt like I had filmed an episode of ghost Hunters there,
and I didn't, Like I fully like had this memory
of I must have filmed an episode of ghost Hunters there.
Now I've been there, but I definitely have never filmed there,
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but I think you've probably been there more than I have,
and so I can't recall what kind of experiences I've had,
but I know you've had many experiences there. Well, what
I liked about the Hoton Mansion, and I'm going to
speak of it in the past tense because we don't
get to investigate it anymore, but it is still there.
And what I liked about it was that it was
a place where the paranormal was welcomed, which it's not
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like some of these other historic spots where were kind
of forcing ourselves in as paranormal researchers to say, you know, please,
historical society, give us a chance. It was a place
that was being run by paranormal investigators who also happened
to be Freemasons, and so you really had an easy
connection with the spirits that were there because they knew
what you were there for and they knew what you
were doing, right, And I do remember that part of it,
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and I haven't touched on actually what happened to the
mansion now? It is privately owned now, correct it is,
so a few years ago it went up for sale,
So the Freemasons decided that. From my understanding, they decided
they didn't want to keep up with this building anymore because,
in addition to the lodge that was built inside of it,
which was huge unto itself, you know, there was a
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lot of space associated with this and I'm sure a
lot of property taxes as well. So they wanted to
get kind of get out from under it, and they
put it up for sale. A number of people in
the paranormal had talked about trying to buy it. I
know John Zapfas had looked into moving his museum into it,
which would have been a perfect fit, but it seemed
like the town wasn't really that down with that idea,
so it ended up being sold to I think it's
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an art organization that hasn't really done anything with it yet.
So as far as I know, those ghosts are still
wandering those halls waiting for someone to come in and
talk to them, right. I always wonder, like what happens
to the ghosts at that point? Are they like thankful
that we're not there talking to them anymore? Or do
they get lonely? Or do you any theories on that? Like,
what do you think is happening in the hot And
Mansion with the spirits right now. I mean I would
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say that in general, any haunted location that sits dormant
for a while, I wouldn't worry too much about it,
because I'm sure time for the spirit world is much
different than it is for us. But at a place
like Hoton Mansion, where they were coming all the time,
and not just for you know, big investigations and events
and things like that, but just Josh and Nick and
the and the people who were investigating on a regular basis,
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they were always in there. So I'm sure to them
it's like, you know, losing your loved one all over again.
You know, somebody walked in there right now to investigate,
either two things would happen. Either you would get nothing,
absolutely nothing, or you'd be overwhelmed with activity. And i
think based on the way that the Hote Mansion has
always been, it would be the latter. Now, as far
as activity goes, what are some of the more common
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occurrences that people report there? Well, a lot of people
that go their report encountering what they feel are the
spirits of Ac Hopton and his daughter, because they feel like,
you know, they would be the ones that would be
most likely there, and of course they will always have
these spirits, these encounters where they feel that it's Mary
in her bedroom or you know, Ac in his study
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in the library downstairs, and of course you would expect
that to happen. But what I find is one of
the more intriguing ideas is when people go into the
room that they believe was John Witter's room, or at
least maybe the room where he committed suicide, or where
his spirit went after he committed suicide, I should say,
they feel like that room has this overwhelming heaviness. So
while you might feel welcomed in the rest of the house,
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that's a room that is very foreboding, and so it
actually takes a certain reserve and a person to be
able to go in there and deal with that. And
I've been in lots of rooms where tragedies have happened.
I've laid in the spot where Abby Borden's body was
found and all those kind of things, and I've never
felt the kind of heaviness that you feel in the
room that has associated with John Witters. And I think
that's because the guilt that he feels is still palpable
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all this time later, Yeah, I can imagine like even
if his kind of spirit is not there, like what
he went through obviously, like he was tremendous for him.
And I do like I feel like sometimes those emotional
scars just kind of cause activity, or cause hauntings, or
you can feel them, you know, years and years later.
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Still now when it comes to John Witters, besides that
kind of heaviness, what sort of activity do you think
would be associated with him in the location? Yeah. A
lot of people, of course, will point to the story
of seeing a light in the window of that room,
and which I can tell you having verified having been
in that room. There wasn't electricity being run into that
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room at least of the time that I was investigating there.
You know, in the twenty twelve thirteen era, there was
no electricity running to that room. So for a light
to be seen in the window from there with nobody
else in the building, I would think that it has
to be something that is at least of interest, if
not totally paranormal, and that I think is a sign
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to me that he's still trying to show that he's
a good person. That's to me, that's what that light
means it's like, please don't don't judge me on what
happened in the in the final days of my life.
Please judge me on my entire life overall. And I
feel so bad about that because nobody blames John Witters
for what happened except John Witters. Yeah. I mean, if
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there was ever a reason for someone to haunt a
place or to stay behind like he has it, you know,
there's always that kind of unfinished business, that feeling of guilt,
like he is kind of the text book ghost for
lack of a better term. But I know you've had
personally some pretty profound experiences there, maybe one of your
(22:14):
most profound experiences there. Do you want to elaborate on that? Absolutely? Well.
I mean, first of all, we went there. I'll be
you know, totally upfront. We went for an event on
a Saturday, So this is this is a little bit
different than the person who might be going in there
for the average paranormal investigation. As you know, you know,
things can happen and you don't always have full control
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of the situation. So we know that we're going to
get in there with about I think there was like
fifty or sixty people that were coming to this event,
but the night before, we had all got into town
the night earlier, and we all met up for dinner,
those of us who are like the guests and the
people who are running it and everything, and Josh Mantello
says to us, all, would you like to go and
check out the house tonight before there's a big group
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there and you can actually do a real investigation. And
if there was maybe a dozen fifteen people sitting around
the table, half of them said, now we're just going
to go back to the hotel. And I couldn't believe it, Like,
what do you mean, You've got the hote mansion to yourself?
This is perfect. So some of us all went over there,
and the building lit up for us and like I've
never seen in terms of activity, including as we're getting
(23:19):
this walking tour from from Josh and Nick Mantello, we're
in Witner's room, and as they're talking and telling the
story of what people have experienced there, a voice came
from the closet, this mumbled, garbled kind of like voice
that everybody could hear, and some of the folks that
were with us, of course, immediately ran over to the
closet to see what was going on. Is there a
(23:40):
tape recorder? Is Josh playing a trick on us? Because
you know, we we're the new people here. I could
see them pull something on us. And when we opened
up the closet, there's nothing in there, and Josh and
Nick are saying, no, no, we would never do something
like that, and we're trying to figure out what the
source of this could be and we can't find anything.
So we finish off the tour and we get to
see the entire mansion inside and out, even the parts
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that people don't normally go into. And then we're all
in the library downstairs kind of hanging out, and I
heard a noise come from the very top floor, the
third floor, and I walked over to the grand staircase,
and everybody that's in the house is all downstairs. Nobody
could have gotten into the house. Well, I'm standing at
the bottom of the staircase and I just yelled up
the stairs, is there anybody up there? And a female
(24:24):
voice says from the very top no, and then everybody
kind of laughed. But really that just proved to us
that there was somebody else there that you know, we
couldn't see. That is wild. So it sounds like she
did not want you there. If it was Mary, I
could kind of understand that. Yeah, you know, then, you know,
(24:46):
why would you want these people poking around talking about
what happened to you all the time. But yeah, you
consider how many people must have gone through that building.
How many you know, obviously with the Freemasons, it is
a fraternal organization. It is a male oriented organization, but
there are women associated with that. They have the you know,
anybody that ever has been a rainbow girl or any
of that, those things are all associated with the Mason.
(25:09):
So there would have been women in the building, So
it could have been anyone, but I'd like to think
that it was kind of married, just saying hey, guys,
I'm done for tonight. You come back tomorrow. Sometimes I
feel like when we're investigating these poor people become defined
by their end. You know, It's almost like the lives
(25:30):
that they led before this happened, or the memories that
they made in these these buildings, all of that becomes
null and void. And that's why I try to encourage
investigators to not focus so much on the end, but
focus on the part, the living part. You could, because
none of us want to be thought of you as
(25:50):
this poor tragic family that this terrible thing happened to.
There's so many other facets of their lives that were
much more important to them, I'm sure. And so maybe
over time they start getting frustrated when people come in
just kind of keep rehashing what happened to the family. Yeah,
And when you think about it, I mean, every investigator
(26:10):
that comes in, it's their first interaction with with say
Mary Hopton, but for Mary Hopton it's her ten thousandth
investor you investigation that she's been part of, So for
her to have to keep asking answering that question all
the time, you know, tell us about the car crash, Mary,
tell us what was going through your mind when the
car crash? Mary? Like that is it's got to be
not only you know, tragic to have to relive that,
(26:30):
but it's also going to get kind of monotonous as well. Absolutely,
And so I mean I think that's actually a very
valuable lesson for investigators or people looking to investigate, is
you know, don't just study what happened, like how what
the end result was, but study like the entire life
of someone that you are trying to reach out to
because Ozar, most people aren't walking in with that knowledge.
(26:53):
I mean that can be the difference between them interacting
with you or not, you know, especially in the case
of the Hotans, they do have such interesting history associated
with them besides this terrible car crash, right, and when
you think about the fact that that house was built
basically on the sweat that Acy Holton had put in
his entire life to amass that fortune that he did,
(27:15):
you know, that was his way of kind of saying, hey,
I've made it. And you know, when you've got guests
coming into your home, the home that you're so proud of,
don't you think you would want to talk about that
and show that off and talk about, you know, how
you were able to do this and where you picked
out this from and all that, rather than saying, you know,
all right, let's talk about the car crash again. So
I like to poke around, especially a place like that,
(27:36):
there's so many twists and turns you're walking around, you know,
recording EVPs. You can say, well, tell me about this room, Macy,
why did you decide to design it this way? Or
who who made the decision to go with that molding
and you'll probably find that you'll get more reaction that way.
You know, everybody's favorite subject to talk about as themselves
and the choices that they've made. So I'd much rather
talk about that than the way that I died. Have
(27:59):
you heard the theory that some of the stones there
might be leading to some of the hauntings because they
came from, like I think it's the Hoosic Tunnel nearby.
What do you think about that? Do you think that's
a possibility. I think so, and I think that that,
you know, that's something that living in the Bridgewater Triangle,
we see that in a lot of the buildings that
are haunted here is you know, we'll say to people, well,
(28:20):
what's the foundation of your home. They'll say, well, it's fieldstone,
or it's granite, or it's you know, so something like that,
and you say, okay, well let's trace where it might
have come from. You find out it came from the
quarry that's out in the Freetown State Forests. So right
at the heart of the Bridgewater Triangle, they're they're picking
up the materials to build their homes out of it.
And I think the same thing can happen out there
as well, if they're taking that, you know, building that
(28:41):
tunnel and blasting away stone, and they've got to do
something with that stone, Let's put it into these nice
ornate homes out here. That probably won't cause any problems.
And I do think that it's probably fair to say
that people might not have known at the time that
that tunnel had those hauntings associated with it, and I
think it's something that predates there being the tunnel there,
you know, I think it's that land there, So they
(29:02):
probably didn't know any better when they did it, but
I'm sure that some homes regret it now. Yeah, you know,
years ago, we investigated a residence that was built with lumber. Basically,
these people have been forcibly moved so that they could
flood the town with a dam, and so a lot
of the people kind of just took their houses down
(29:24):
with the idea they would rebuild elsewhere, and then a
lot of them did not, and so this house was
constructed of other people's homes that had been moved because
of this dam, and a lot of the activity was
because of that. And so yeah, I think building materials,
you don't think about it, but they can harbor something.
(29:48):
What I also found interesting about the way that it
was built is you've got this beautiful, ornate mansion that
was constructed the way that the Hotans wanted it to be,
and then you have the Freemasons when they took it
over or they start constructing the Masonic lodge within the
middle of it, which when you think about it, it's
an odd blueprint, it's an odd floor plan to have
(30:08):
it built this way. And now you're inserting everything that
is associated with the Freemasons into the heart of this building.
So you've got all of all the ceremony, all the
things that go on now being amplified and recorded by
these materials that are surrounding it completely. People always come
to us thinking that, you know, buildings and had the
(30:30):
Freemasons in them at some point are haunted because you know,
they called on spirits or whatever it is. And I
actually think it has more to do with just the
ritual aspect of it and the emotions kind of put
into what they were doing. You know, it's kind of
the same idea anywhere where there's there's rituals happening, like
there is this kind of you know, there's this major
(30:51):
intention put into those and a lot of them are
the same thing over and over and over again. I
kind of forgot that aspect of like what an interesting
haunt it is that you have obviously this family that
was there and everything they went through, and then on
top of that, the Freemasons made it a lodge, and
then on top of that, you've got these building materials
from this local tunnel that's supposedly super haunted, and it's
(31:12):
just got so many facets to it. It's really interesting.
And I have a little bit of a theory as
to why the Freemasons might draw out more of the
hotan activity as well, and why Free Masonic lodges have
these ghosts associated with them. It's because Freemasons, you know,
the belief and a higher power is the key central
point of what they believe in, but they don't need
(31:33):
to have all the religious dogma associated with it. So
when somebody goes in to investigate a haunted location, they've
got to kind of check their own personal religious beliefs
at the door, because some religions tell you that you
shouldn't be talking to spirits, you shouldn't believe in spirits,
that spirits are actually the devil trying to manipulate you.
All these different belief systems that come into it can
screw with the interaction a little bit. When you're dealing
(31:56):
with freemasons who just say, listen, we don't care how
you believe, as long as you leave, as long as
you believe in something greater than yourself. I think that
makes it a lot easier for this activity to come through. Yeah,
I hadn't really thought of it that way before. That's
really interesting. Now, did you have any other experiences there
while you were visiting, Well, when you were talking about
the way that you make these connections with the spirits there,
(32:19):
that is the place. The Hote Mansion is the place
that actually changed me as an investigator, because I was
somebody who was kind of impatient on investigations. I would
go in guns blazing, you know, and say, come on, ghost,
come out, show us who killed you? How'd you die?
Wouldn't you die? How long you've been here? Like I'm
I just want my questions answered and I want to
kind of move on. And it was the Hote Mansion that,
(32:40):
you know, for lack of a better term, taught me
that ghosts are people too, right. It was in the
lodge itself, there's a section in the back where they
used to have secret ceremonies, and then over that section
there was another kind of secret area and we were
investigating in there. We were getting all kinds of noises,
and you know, if we did Knox, we would get
Knox in response. So if we did the old shaven
(33:01):
a haircut, we'd get the two bits back. And all
the stuff was happening. We stood there and started to
watch shadow figures emerge and start walking down the hallway,
to the point where at one point we're watching a
procession of them walk right in front of our eyes
down the hallway, And that alone was kind of mind
blowing because that was the most intense shadow activity i'd
(33:22):
had to that point. But a little bit later on
in the evening, there was one shadow way down at
the end of the hall by itself, and we were
kind of calling him down, and over the course of
a good amount of time, we finally got him to
come down and stand in front of us. So we're
seeing this shadow person standing right before our eyes. There
was myself and about four other people, and I held
my hand out and this shadow person actually grabbed my hand,
(33:45):
wrapped its hand around my hand and began pumping my
arm up and down in a handshake motion. So I
shook hands with the shadow person. That is intense. It
really was the most intense thing that's ever happened to
me in an investigation because I just started crying. I
couldn't help it, Like the tears just started coming out
of my eyes because I realized, like all of this
(34:06):
stuff that I've been chasing around, I knew that it
was real. I knew the activity was real, but I
didn't realize the humanity behind it. And I went downstairs
and everybody could tell something had happened to me, and
I had to make the decision do I tell people
about what happened to me because they're not going to
believe me. And this is to this point, I'd done
a bunch of events, but I'd never been the person
(34:27):
to have the personal experience. I didn't want to be
because I knew people would think I was just making
it up because I want to sell tickets to the
next event. I was really nervous about saying anything. And
I talked with a friend of ours, Frank Grace, the photographer,
and he said, no, dude, you've got to tell people.
If it affected you that much, and when I told everybody,
you know, and actually everybody did believe me and was
very supportive, but it changed who I was as a
(34:49):
person and as an investigator going forward. I love that experience.
That's insane, and I wish that would happen to me,
like I would love nothing more that they're just very
cordially greet a ghost like would like a living person
in front of you, like a handshake and a hello, like.
I think that is amazing, and I think it also
shows the power of the personal experience. I think a
(35:09):
lot of us start doing this to collect evidence and
we want to, you know, prove that ghosts exist, or
we want to have something crazy happen, and then at
some point, like your equipment and collecting you know, evidence,
I say with air quotes, becomes so much less important
than these kind of personal experiences that solidify your theories
(35:31):
and your thoughts and again bring humanity to your experiences
and to these these spirits. And I think it makes
the more passionate type investigators like once you make that shift,
and so it sounds like that was that moment for you,
oh for sure, And it put a thought into my
head that I'm sure that you've had in your head
(35:53):
many times and your investigations too, where I thought to myself,
maybe I should stop doing this and just leave them alone.
But then, you know, you realize that they are reaching
out to you because they do have something to say,
and that you can be the conduit for that. You know,
obviously there are some spirits in some places that that
don't want to interact and so they just choose not to.
(36:14):
But um, I realized there that you know, to do
this now going forward. I was that person. I got
into this with that idea, I'm going to be the
person that's going to catch the evidence it's going to
prove to the world that goes too real. And then
that that was the night that made me realize that,
you know, it's not about that. It's about bringing people
to where they can have a one on one experience
to either you know, help them believe something they weren't
(36:34):
open to before, or to solidify that belief that they
always had but needed the proof. Right, Yeah, exactly. I mean,
I I love that, and you know it's it is
you know, to your point of kind of thinking for
a moment, should we leave them alone? You know, you
have to kind of instill like free will and free
thought on them, Like they will tell you if they
want you to leave them alone, but if they would
(36:56):
like to interact with you, they will. It's just like
any living person standing right in front of you, and
how many people do ignore them, you know, And that's
why there's people like us who do at least try
to reach out and in your case, actually shake their hand. Yeah,
And what I've found to be kind of the lasting
thing that stuck with me is that feeling of there
(37:19):
was no difference between me and whatever the thing was
that was shaking my hand. So you know, in some cases,
you look at these stories that you hear and people
will tell you, well, I saw their shadow figure and
it's I smelled sulfur, so it must have been a
demon or you know, you hear all these characterizations that
people have. That experience gave me enough of an up
close experience that I can say that I just I
(37:41):
feel comfortable around these entities that they really are just
another person and I don't need to start to worry
about all these you know, maybe maybe some of these
manifestations are other things, but from that point on, I
always kind of looked at everything as being you know,
just like me, and thinking about it that way has
changed the way that I asked the questions. It's the
way that I try to get interaction, and it's made
(38:02):
me feel better when I leave each location that I hopefully,
at the very least gave them some entertainment for the night.
Yeah seriously, Well, I'm sure you did, and I love that.
So now, on that note, tell us where people can
find you. What is Tim Wiseberg up to these days? Oh,
I'm always talking about the paranormal somewhere or other. But
(38:24):
my home base is the Spooky South Coast radio show
and podcast, which you can get anywhere podcasts are found.
I have my own network, the midnight FM network Midnight
dot FM, where I do a show on Friday nights
called Midnight Society. And basically, you know, for me, it's
all about any opportunity I can have to talk about
this stuff. So sometimes I might work behind the scenes
(38:44):
on things, sometimes I might be in front of the
camera on some things, but I you know, I'm always
looking for a way to make these stories kind of
more palatable for people, and to make it so that
they realize that when they do have something strange happened
to them. It's okay, it's the paranormals actually kind of normal. Yeah, well,
(39:06):
I thank you so much for coming on the show.
It's great to talk to you. And yeah, as always,
I super appreciate you Tim, you are an awesome person,
and everyone out there, I highly recommend you seek him
out if you are not familiar with him already. Like
I said, I was a Tim fan well before I
was ever on television. I was listening to Spooky South
(39:28):
Coast way back in the day in California. So it's
definitely well worth the seeking out of mister Weisberg. So
thank you, sir. I really appreciate you taking the time. Well,
thank you, and thank you for all your support over
the years. Potent Mansion has become that empty mansion in
(39:48):
the neighborhood that kids ride their bicycles by, quickly wondering
what could be lurking inside. It's the stuff of legends
and lore and most assuredly haunted. But I think good
stands as a reminder of something else, a lesson each
of us could take stock in the realization that you
can be on top of the world, you can have
(40:09):
every part of your beautiful life, meticulously planned and accounted for,
but one moment can derail it all horribly. Never forget that.
Always live life to its fullest, because you never know
when a dark hour may be lurking ahead. I'm Amy
Bruney and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is hosted
(40:39):
and written by me Amy Bruney, with additional research by
Taylor Haggerdorn and Cassandra day Alba. This show is edited
and produced by Rima el Kali, with supervising producer Josh
Thane and executive producers Aaron Manky, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick.
Haunted Road is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and
(40:59):
Mile from Aaron Manke. Learn more about this show over
at Grimm Andmild dot com, and for more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm
and Mild from Aaron Mink listener Discretion is advised. In
nineteen fourteen, Albert Charles Houghton had it all. A prominent
businessman and a respected local politician, Houghton enjoyed a reputation
(00:25):
throughout New England as a man whose influence extended well
beyond the bounds of his small town in the Berkshires.
He also had a large and loving family with his
wife and daughters, most of whom had married and were
starting families of their own. Hoton lived in the grandest
house in North Adams. He had everything until he didn't.
(00:47):
A terrible accident one summer day changed the entire course
of the Houghton family's history, leaving behind a legacy of
tragedy and a mansion full of harrowing memories. That mansion
is all so full of ghosts, the restless spirits of
those who can't forgive themselves and those who can't forget.
I'm Amy Brunei, and this is Haunted Road Today. North
(01:22):
Adams is the smallest city in Massachusetts, nestled in the
Berkshire Mountains of western mass The city is best known
as the home of mass Mocha, the Massachusetts Museum of
Contemporary Art, but once North Adams was a center of
manufacturing during the Industrial Revolution, topping out at a population
of twenty four in nineteen hundred, ac Houghton wasn't just
(01:45):
an important figure in the history of North Adams. He
was seminal in the founding of the city itself, which
was incorporated in eighteen seventy eight and became an official
city in eighteen ninety five. Over the course of his career,
he served as bank president, away director, and president of
Arnold Printworks, which is now the home of Masmocha. In addition,
(02:06):
he served as a delegate at the eighteen ninety two
Democratic National Convention and as a commissioner to the Chicago
World's Fair in eighteen ninety three, and was a trustee
of both Williams College and Boston University. Hoton was also
the first mayor of North Adams, taking office in eighteen
ninety six. Just after the end of his first term,
(02:26):
he commissioned the Houghton Mansion, which would be the third
home for his family in the city. The seventeen room
home was built in the neo Classical Revival style, painted
off white with gray blue accents on the windows and columns.
The mansion featured Greek architectural details like etchings and engravings,
and a roof of Spanish tiles inside Italian marble fireplaces
(02:50):
reflected the glow of fires on mahogany paneled walls and ceilings.
According to the Ghosts of the Berkshires, the house was
intended to be a place where Houghton could enjoy happy
times with his beloved family as he retired from public life.
Outside in the yard, the Houghton Mansion has a large
rock wall separating the yard from the side street. The
(03:10):
wall was constructed from rocks removed from the Hoosac Tunnel,
which connects North Adams to a neighboring town nicknamed the
Bloody Pit. The Hoosac Tunnel has its own dark history.
More than two hundred workers died during its construction, and
people to this day report lantern holding apparitions and mysterious voices.
Houghton's connection to the tunnel goes beyond building materials. For
(03:33):
a time, he was the state director of the Fitchburg Railroad,
which owned the Hoosac Tunnel at the time. The mansion
was built. The Houghton family consisted of Acy Houghton, his
wife Cornelia, and daughters Florence, Susan, Alice, and Mary. Their
first child, Laura, had died at the age of three
in eighteen seventy one. Their remaining daughters were grown and
(03:53):
only unmarried. Mary moved into the mansion with her parents.
In nineteen fourteen, an event occurred that which change the
family's fate forever. In the spring of that year, Houghton
bought his first automobile, a seven passenger pierced Arrow touring vehicle.
(04:16):
He tasked John Witters, the family's servant of more than
forty years, with learning to drive the car, but Whitters
did so reluctantly, citing his age and his poor health
as reasons he should not be the family's chauffeur, but
Houghton insisted. According to a contemporary newspaper account, it is
stated that the driver had taken up the duties of
(04:36):
chauffeur under protest, but that his employer had insisted that
inasmuch as Witters had been such an excellent and careful coachman,
that he would also be a careful auto driver. It
has also stated that Whitter's health had not been of
the best during the spring and summer. On the morning
of August first, nineteen fourteen, the North Adams Evening Transcript
(04:57):
reported Houghton and his youngest thirty eight year old Mary,
along with family friends doctor Robert Hutton and missus Sibil Hutton,
took the car on a pleasure trip to Bennington, just
across the border in Vermont, but the car would never
reach its destination. At nine thirty am in pound All, Vermont,
the car ascended a steep hill which was known to
(05:20):
locals as a dangerous place for cars on the road.
A construction crew and team of horses blocked the right
side of the road. The Bennington Evening Banner reported that
there have been several narrow escapes there. The old railing
was taken down while the road was being repaired, and
a new one was to have been put up when
the work was completed. John Whitters pulled to the left
of the road to avoid the construction The wheel of
(05:42):
the car went onto the soft shoulder, causing Witters to
lose control. Some witnesses believed that he mistook the accelerator
of the car for the break, and some suggested that
a cloud of dust impaired his vision. Though the vehicle
was only going twelve miles per hour, the driver wasn't
able to regain control. The car slid down a steep embankment,
(06:02):
flipping three times and rolling fifty feet before landing in
a pasture. Robert Hutton, Sibyl Hutton, Ac Houghton, and John
Witters were thrown from the car. Whitters and Robert Hutton
only sustained minor injuries, but Houghton suffered a fractured right shoulder.
Sibil Hutton was crushed by the vehicle and died at
the scene. She was thirty three years old. Mary Houghton
(06:25):
was trapped in the backseat of the crushed vehicle and
had to be removed by rescuers. The Bennington Evening Banner
reported that she was badly crushed by the car and
her spine was fractured. By three pm, the thirty seven
year old Mary had passed away. According to the North
Adams Evening Transcript, the area was so dangerous that many
of those present after it occurred said that they were
(06:47):
surprised that a catastrophe had not happened there before. The
news of the accident shocked the town's residence, who gathered
together in mourning. The North Adams Evening Transcript reported that
news of the accident spread like wildfire throughout the city,
and groups of prominent citizens gathered on main Street with
anxious faces and expressions of sorrow upon their countenances. One
(07:10):
newspaper described Mary as leading a quiet life of self sacrifice,
explaining how she devoted herself to caring for her father,
whose health had been precarious for some years past. Another
account theorized that Houghton might not survive much longer because
of the ordeal. The Bennington Banner wrote, the shock of
the accident and what he has sustain than the death
(07:31):
of a favorite daughter, have been so depressing that a
fatal termination would not be at all surprising. But the
first to die in the fallout of the accident would
be John Whitters. Though he was under the watch of
family gardener James Hines, who had stayed the night with
Witterers out of concern for his mental health, he was
able to slip away from the gardener's watch at four
am on the morning of August second, nineteen fourteen, the
(07:54):
day following the accident, Whitters ended his own life, shooting
himself in the head with a volver in the basement
of the mansion stables. He was sixty three years old.
According to the Brattleboro Daily Reformer, Whitters brooded over the
results of the accident, remarking over and over and over
again that he could not live as he had caused
the death of Miss Mary and her friend. The Berkshire
(08:16):
County Eagle reported that he continually kept saying, I wish
it was I and not the girls. Witters was buried
in the Houghton family plot. Just nine days later, ac
Houghton passed away in his home. His health had already
been failing, and the injuries he sustained in the accident,
(08:39):
coupled with the magnitude of his losses, must have surely
contributed to his demise. Some said Houghton died of a
broken heart. He was seventy years old when he passed.
The whole town of North Adams mourned their former mayor
on August thirteenth, nineteen fourteen. The day of his funeral,
much of the town shut down. According to the Orkshire
(09:00):
Evening Eagle, the Merchants Association attended in a body and
all of the public buildings of the city are draped
in mourning. The city Hall, public library, fire stations, banks
and stores, as well as the transcript office present a
somber appearance with their long streamers of black and white bunting.
The sole topic of conversation yesterday was the big things
(09:22):
that mister Houghton had accomplished for the city and her
people during his lifetime, and the loss the city had
sustained in his death. The stores of the city closed
at two o'clock and will remain closed until evening. The
Arnold print Works, of which he was head, and the
Hoosac Cotton Mills, which he formerly owned, closed at noon
and remained closed for the day. The wheels and all
(09:43):
the factories of the city will be stopped from four
to four oh five. The public library closed this afternoon
from two to five out of respect for the late
ex mayor. The reason all the machines stopped in the
city at four pm was because that was the precise
moment of Houghton's interment into the ground. The North Adam's
Evening Transcript described these as unusual marks of respect after
(10:08):
the accident, one of Houghton's surviving daughters Florence moved into
the Houghton Mansion with her husband, William Gallup, who had
been a business partner of her father. Florence looked after
her mother, Cordelia Houghton, until the older woman died in
nineteen sixteen. The family sold the home to the Lafayette
Freemasons in nineteen twenty seven, who added another ten thousand
(10:28):
square feet to the mansion's fifteen thousand square feet for
a Masonic temple, which was dedicated in nineteen twenty nine.
In twenty seventeen, the Masons sold the building due to
financial concerns. It was purchased by hotel developer Benjamin Spenson
for one hundred and sixty thousand dollars. Today, the mansion
looks much the same as it did in its heyday,
(10:50):
with the exception of some peeling paint. The house isn't
currently in use and sits empty, or I should say
it's empty of living inhabitants. The Houghton Mansion has been
described as one of the most haunted houses in all
of New England by a regional PBS station. Over the years,
many people have reported unusual incidents there, which are largely
(11:11):
attributed to the after effects of the terrible auto accident
that befell the Houghton family. Some also speculate that a
curse may have been placed on the Houghton family as
a result of the Hoosac Tunnel rocks used for the
houses stone wall. Multiple Masons claimed to have paranormal experiences
during the buildings ninety years as a Freemason temple. Two
Masons spending the night there once heard the door of
(11:32):
the building open and shut, followed by the sound of
heavy footsteps. They assumed the sounds were being made by
fellow Masons, but when the men went to greet them,
no one was there and there were no footprints in
the snow outside. Masons had such striking encounters in the
mansion that in two thousand and four, Masons Josh and
Nick Mantello started a ghost hunting group, Berkshire Paranormal, in
(11:53):
response to the experiences they had of the Houghton mansion.
Masons have reported seeing darting shadows in the temple area.
Some who have had experiences in the home claim that
if you wrap out the opening rhythm of shaven a
haircut and the temple, a spirit will respond with two
knocks for two bits I think that's a method that
we perfected on ghost hunters. By the way, visitors to
(12:14):
the mansion have often claimed to have seen Mary Houghton
on the upper floors and to hear her voice. According
to the Haunted Places, visitors also claim to have felt
an overwhelming sense of sadness at Mary Houghton's room. Ghosts
of the Berkshire's right set. When sitting in one particular chair,
visitors often claim to be touched by an unseen hand.
Ac Houghton has been frequently seen and heard in the house,
(12:37):
especially in his bedroom. There, his bedroom door is set
to open and close spontaneously, and items in his roomors
sometimes moved when no one is present. According to Paranormal
hotspots dot com, when AC's spirit is present, he is
often perceived by many sensitives and psychics as an angry
spirit does not wish to have strangers in his house.
(13:03):
Former driver John Witters has been spotted in the house.
He's said to take the form of shadows throughout the space.
The closet doors in what's thought to have been his
third floor bedroom are also said to move on their own,
and some say they've heard footsteps on the servants stairs
leading up to his room. The same deep sadness felt
in Mary's room has also been reported here. At least
(13:25):
one paranormal group has claimed to record an e VP
that's said get out in Witters's bedroom. In the kitchen,
people have reported seeing ghostly footprints on the just mopped floor.
According to the Haunted Places site, the basement is said
to be one of the most haunted spots in the
entire property. In particular, the ghost of a young girl
(13:45):
can often be seen walking across the basement and fading
into the walls. The girl has been heard giggling and murmuring,
and has been seen peeking around doors. She's even a
little bit of a prankster. Some have claimed that she's
tapped them on the legs, pulled their pant legs, or
tug their hair. The Masons reported seeing her dark shape
moving around the basement, as well as small, colorful sparks
(14:08):
of light flashing about them in the dark that they
have nicknamed Sparkle's one witness. When she appeared on Ghost Hunters,
had a different story to share. She said she felt
very uncomfortable, like the dark spirit didn't want me down here.
Now I know someone who claims he had the most
powerful paranormal experience of his life at the Houghton Mansion.
(14:31):
To this day, he counts it as one of the
most incredible locations he has ever investigated, and he has
some great insight and experiences to share. Up next, we'll
be talking to paranormal researcher Tim Weisberg. That's coming up
after the break. Now, I am joined by one of
(14:56):
my oldest not agewise, but longest, I don't know, one
of the first people I met really in the paranormal field,
mister Tim Weisberg. Who is You're You're a researcher, you're
a host, you're a writer. Like you've done it all.
So welcome, mister Weisberg. Thank you for having me. It's
a yeah, just a jack of all trades. Whatever you
(15:17):
need in the paranormal I'm your guy. There have been
a number of times over the years where I text
you the most random stuff and you always come through
from you, so I super appreciate you. Now, I think
I knew you because i'd been on the show when
I lived in California, but I can't remember the first
time I met you, but it has been I think
it's been like seventeen or eighteen years. It's been a
(15:38):
long time. Yeah, yeah. And what's great about it is
that we were able to kind of forge that friendship
across the country so that when we finally did meet
in person, it didn't seem weird at all. No, not
at all. We just knew we were weird and that
was enough, right, And and that general weirdness that we have,
you know, it doesn't really work for everybody else, but
(15:59):
when you get somebody else said has that weirdness, it
becomes like a magnet. Well, I'm glad you're still a
part of my world, as Arial says. But anyways, so
I reached out to you when it came to Houghton
Mansion just because I guess it would be considered almost
a local hunt for us because it's in Massachusetts, it's
a few hours away, and I know you've investigated it
(16:19):
a number of times. Now. I had this kind of
weird Mandela effect thing happening before today, Like I really
felt like I had filmed an episode of ghost Hunters there,
and I didn't, Like I fully like had this memory
of I must have filmed an episode of ghost Hunters there.
Now I've been there, but I definitely have never filmed there,
(16:40):
but I think you've probably been there more than I have,
and so I can't recall what kind of experiences I've had,
but I know you've had many experiences there. Well, what
I liked about the Hoton Mansion, and I'm going to
speak of it in the past tense because we don't
get to investigate it anymore, but it is still there.
And what I liked about it was that it was
a place where the paranormal was welcomed, which it's not
(17:04):
like some of these other historic spots where were kind
of forcing ourselves in as paranormal researchers to say, you know, please,
historical society, give us a chance. It was a place
that was being run by paranormal investigators who also happened
to be Freemasons, and so you really had an easy
connection with the spirits that were there because they knew
what you were there for and they knew what you
were doing, right, And I do remember that part of it,
(17:26):
and I haven't touched on actually what happened to the
mansion now? It is privately owned now, correct it is,
so a few years ago it went up for sale,
So the Freemasons decided that. From my understanding, they decided
they didn't want to keep up with this building anymore because,
in addition to the lodge that was built inside of it,
which was huge unto itself, you know, there was a
(17:48):
lot of space associated with this and I'm sure a
lot of property taxes as well. So they wanted to
get kind of get out from under it, and they
put it up for sale. A number of people in
the paranormal had talked about trying to buy it. I
know John Zapfas had looked into moving his museum into it,
which would have been a perfect fit, but it seemed
like the town wasn't really that down with that idea,
so it ended up being sold to I think it's
(18:10):
an art organization that hasn't really done anything with it yet.
So as far as I know, those ghosts are still
wandering those halls waiting for someone to come in and
talk to them, right. I always wonder, like what happens
to the ghosts at that point? Are they like thankful
that we're not there talking to them anymore? Or do
they get lonely? Or do you any theories on that? Like,
what do you think is happening in the hot And
Mansion with the spirits right now. I mean I would
(18:34):
say that in general, any haunted location that sits dormant
for a while, I wouldn't worry too much about it,
because I'm sure time for the spirit world is much
different than it is for us. But at a place
like Hoton Mansion, where they were coming all the time,
and not just for you know, big investigations and events
and things like that, but just Josh and Nick and
the and the people who were investigating on a regular basis,
(18:55):
they were always in there. So I'm sure to them
it's like, you know, losing your loved one all over again.
You know, somebody walked in there right now to investigate,
either two things would happen. Either you would get nothing,
absolutely nothing, or you'd be overwhelmed with activity. And i
think based on the way that the Hote Mansion has
always been, it would be the latter. Now, as far
as activity goes, what are some of the more common
(19:16):
occurrences that people report there? Well, a lot of people
that go their report encountering what they feel are the
spirits of Ac Hopton and his daughter, because they feel like,
you know, they would be the ones that would be
most likely there, and of course they will always have
these spirits, these encounters where they feel that it's Mary
in her bedroom or you know, Ac in his study
(19:40):
in the library downstairs, and of course you would expect
that to happen. But what I find is one of
the more intriguing ideas is when people go into the
room that they believe was John Witter's room, or at
least maybe the room where he committed suicide, or where
his spirit went after he committed suicide, I should say,
they feel like that room has this overwhelming heaviness. So
while you might feel welcomed in the rest of the house,
(20:03):
that's a room that is very foreboding, and so it
actually takes a certain reserve and a person to be
able to go in there and deal with that. And
I've been in lots of rooms where tragedies have happened.
I've laid in the spot where Abby Borden's body was
found and all those kind of things, and I've never
felt the kind of heaviness that you feel in the
room that has associated with John Witters. And I think
that's because the guilt that he feels is still palpable
(20:27):
all this time later, Yeah, I can imagine like even
if his kind of spirit is not there, like what
he went through obviously, like he was tremendous for him.
And I do like I feel like sometimes those emotional
scars just kind of cause activity, or cause hauntings, or
you can feel them, you know, years and years later.
(20:49):
Still now when it comes to John Witters, besides that
kind of heaviness, what sort of activity do you think
would be associated with him in the location? Yeah. A
lot of people, of course, will point to the story
of seeing a light in the window of that room,
and which I can tell you having verified having been
in that room. There wasn't electricity being run into that
(21:10):
room at least of the time that I was investigating there.
You know, in the twenty twelve thirteen era, there was
no electricity running to that room. So for a light
to be seen in the window from there with nobody
else in the building, I would think that it has
to be something that is at least of interest, if
not totally paranormal, and that I think is a sign
(21:32):
to me that he's still trying to show that he's
a good person. That's to me, that's what that light
means it's like, please don't don't judge me on what
happened in the in the final days of my life.
Please judge me on my entire life overall. And I
feel so bad about that because nobody blames John Witters
for what happened except John Witters. Yeah. I mean, if
(21:53):
there was ever a reason for someone to haunt a
place or to stay behind like he has it, you know,
there's always that kind of unfinished business, that feeling of guilt,
like he is kind of the text book ghost for
lack of a better term. But I know you've had
personally some pretty profound experiences there, maybe one of your
(22:14):
most profound experiences there. Do you want to elaborate on that? Absolutely? Well.
I mean, first of all, we went there. I'll be
you know, totally upfront. We went for an event on
a Saturday, So this is this is a little bit
different than the person who might be going in there
for the average paranormal investigation. As you know, you know,
things can happen and you don't always have full control
(22:36):
of the situation. So we know that we're going to
get in there with about I think there was like
fifty or sixty people that were coming to this event,
but the night before, we had all got into town
the night earlier, and we all met up for dinner,
those of us who are like the guests and the
people who are running it and everything, and Josh Mantello
says to us, all, would you like to go and
check out the house tonight before there's a big group
(22:58):
there and you can actually do a real investigation. And
if there was maybe a dozen fifteen people sitting around
the table, half of them said, now we're just going
to go back to the hotel. And I couldn't believe it, Like,
what do you mean, You've got the hote mansion to yourself?
This is perfect. So some of us all went over there,
and the building lit up for us and like I've
never seen in terms of activity, including as we're getting
(23:19):
this walking tour from from Josh and Nick Mantello, we're
in Witner's room, and as they're talking and telling the
story of what people have experienced there, a voice came
from the closet, this mumbled, garbled kind of like voice
that everybody could hear, and some of the folks that
were with us, of course, immediately ran over to the
closet to see what was going on. Is there a
(23:40):
tape recorder? Is Josh playing a trick on us? Because
you know, we we're the new people here. I could
see them pull something on us. And when we opened
up the closet, there's nothing in there, and Josh and
Nick are saying, no, no, we would never do something
like that, and we're trying to figure out what the
source of this could be and we can't find anything.
So we finish off the tour and we get to
see the entire mansion inside and out, even the parts
(24:02):
that people don't normally go into. And then we're all
in the library downstairs kind of hanging out, and I
heard a noise come from the very top floor, the
third floor, and I walked over to the grand staircase,
and everybody that's in the house is all downstairs. Nobody
could have gotten into the house. Well, I'm standing at
the bottom of the staircase and I just yelled up
the stairs, is there anybody up there? And a female
(24:24):
voice says from the very top no, and then everybody
kind of laughed. But really that just proved to us
that there was somebody else there that you know, we
couldn't see. That is wild. So it sounds like she
did not want you there. If it was Mary, I
could kind of understand that. Yeah, you know, then, you know,
(24:46):
why would you want these people poking around talking about
what happened to you all the time. But yeah, you
consider how many people must have gone through that building.
How many you know, obviously with the Freemasons, it is
a fraternal organization. It is a male oriented organization, but
there are women associated with that. They have the you know,
anybody that ever has been a rainbow girl or any
of that, those things are all associated with the Mason.
(25:09):
So there would have been women in the building, So
it could have been anyone, but I'd like to think
that it was kind of married, just saying hey, guys,
I'm done for tonight. You come back tomorrow. Sometimes I
feel like when we're investigating these poor people become defined
by their end. You know, It's almost like the lives
(25:30):
that they led before this happened, or the memories that
they made in these these buildings, all of that becomes
null and void. And that's why I try to encourage
investigators to not focus so much on the end, but
focus on the part, the living part. You could, because
none of us want to be thought of you as
(25:50):
this poor tragic family that this terrible thing happened to.
There's so many other facets of their lives that were
much more important to them, I'm sure. And so maybe
over time they start getting frustrated when people come in
just kind of keep rehashing what happened to the family. Yeah,
And when you think about it, I mean, every investigator
(26:10):
that comes in, it's their first interaction with with say
Mary Hopton, but for Mary Hopton it's her ten thousandth
investor you investigation that she's been part of, So for
her to have to keep asking answering that question all
the time, you know, tell us about the car crash, Mary,
tell us what was going through your mind when the
car crash? Mary? Like that is it's got to be
not only you know, tragic to have to relive that,
(26:30):
but it's also going to get kind of monotonous as well. Absolutely,
And so I mean I think that's actually a very
valuable lesson for investigators or people looking to investigate, is
you know, don't just study what happened, like how what
the end result was, but study like the entire life
of someone that you are trying to reach out to
because Ozar, most people aren't walking in with that knowledge.
(26:53):
I mean that can be the difference between them interacting
with you or not, you know, especially in the case
of the Hotans, they do have such interesting history associated
with them besides this terrible car crash, right, and when
you think about the fact that that house was built
basically on the sweat that Acy Holton had put in
his entire life to amass that fortune that he did,
(27:15):
you know, that was his way of kind of saying, hey,
I've made it. And you know, when you've got guests
coming into your home, the home that you're so proud of,
don't you think you would want to talk about that
and show that off and talk about, you know, how
you were able to do this and where you picked
out this from and all that, rather than saying, you know,
all right, let's talk about the car crash again. So
I like to poke around, especially a place like that,
(27:36):
there's so many twists and turns you're walking around, you know,
recording EVPs. You can say, well, tell me about this room, Macy,
why did you decide to design it this way? Or
who who made the decision to go with that molding
and you'll probably find that you'll get more reaction that way.
You know, everybody's favorite subject to talk about as themselves
and the choices that they've made. So I'd much rather
talk about that than the way that I died. Have
(27:59):
you heard the theory that some of the stones there
might be leading to some of the hauntings because they
came from, like I think it's the Hoosic Tunnel nearby.
What do you think about that? Do you think that's
a possibility. I think so, and I think that that,
you know, that's something that living in the Bridgewater Triangle,
we see that in a lot of the buildings that
are haunted here is you know, we'll say to people, well,
(28:20):
what's the foundation of your home. They'll say, well, it's fieldstone,
or it's granite, or it's you know, so something like that,
and you say, okay, well let's trace where it might
have come from. You find out it came from the
quarry that's out in the Freetown State Forests. So right
at the heart of the Bridgewater Triangle, they're they're picking
up the materials to build their homes out of it.
And I think the same thing can happen out there
as well, if they're taking that, you know, building that
(28:41):
tunnel and blasting away stone, and they've got to do
something with that stone, Let's put it into these nice
ornate homes out here. That probably won't cause any problems.
And I do think that it's probably fair to say
that people might not have known at the time that
that tunnel had those hauntings associated with it, and I
think it's something that predates there being the tunnel there,
you know, I think it's that land there, So they
(29:02):
probably didn't know any better when they did it, but
I'm sure that some homes regret it now. Yeah, you know,
years ago, we investigated a residence that was built with lumber. Basically,
these people have been forcibly moved so that they could
flood the town with a dam, and so a lot
of the people kind of just took their houses down
(29:24):
with the idea they would rebuild elsewhere, and then a
lot of them did not, and so this house was
constructed of other people's homes that had been moved because
of this dam, and a lot of the activity was
because of that. And so yeah, I think building materials,
you don't think about it, but they can harbor something.
(29:48):
What I also found interesting about the way that it
was built is you've got this beautiful, ornate mansion that
was constructed the way that the Hotans wanted it to be,
and then you have the Freemasons when they took it
over or they start constructing the Masonic lodge within the
middle of it, which when you think about it, it's
an odd blueprint, it's an odd floor plan to have
(30:08):
it built this way. And now you're inserting everything that
is associated with the Freemasons into the heart of this building.
So you've got all of all the ceremony, all the
things that go on now being amplified and recorded by
these materials that are surrounding it completely. People always come
to us thinking that, you know, buildings and had the
(30:30):
Freemasons in them at some point are haunted because you know,
they called on spirits or whatever it is. And I
actually think it has more to do with just the
ritual aspect of it and the emotions kind of put
into what they were doing. You know, it's kind of
the same idea anywhere where there's there's rituals happening, like
there is this kind of you know, there's this major
(30:51):
intention put into those and a lot of them are
the same thing over and over and over again. I
kind of forgot that aspect of like what an interesting
haunt it is that you have obviously this family that
was there and everything they went through, and then on
top of that, the Freemasons made it a lodge, and
then on top of that, you've got these building materials
from this local tunnel that's supposedly super haunted, and it's
(31:12):
just got so many facets to it. It's really interesting.
And I have a little bit of a theory as
to why the Freemasons might draw out more of the
hotan activity as well, and why Free Masonic lodges have
these ghosts associated with them. It's because Freemasons, you know,
the belief and a higher power is the key central
point of what they believe in, but they don't need
(31:33):
to have all the religious dogma associated with it. So
when somebody goes in to investigate a haunted location, they've
got to kind of check their own personal religious beliefs
at the door, because some religions tell you that you
shouldn't be talking to spirits, you shouldn't believe in spirits,
that spirits are actually the devil trying to manipulate you.
All these different belief systems that come into it can
screw with the interaction a little bit. When you're dealing
(31:56):
with freemasons who just say, listen, we don't care how
you believe, as long as you leave, as long as
you believe in something greater than yourself. I think that
makes it a lot easier for this activity to come through. Yeah,
I hadn't really thought of it that way before. That's
really interesting. Now, did you have any other experiences there
while you were visiting, Well, when you were talking about
the way that you make these connections with the spirits there,
(32:19):
that is the place. The Hote Mansion is the place
that actually changed me as an investigator, because I was
somebody who was kind of impatient on investigations. I would
go in guns blazing, you know, and say, come on, ghost,
come out, show us who killed you? How'd you die?
Wouldn't you die? How long you've been here? Like I'm
I just want my questions answered and I want to
kind of move on. And it was the Hote Mansion that,
(32:40):
you know, for lack of a better term, taught me
that ghosts are people too, right. It was in the
lodge itself, there's a section in the back where they
used to have secret ceremonies, and then over that section
there was another kind of secret area and we were
investigating in there. We were getting all kinds of noises,
and you know, if we did Knox, we would get
Knox in response. So if we did the old shaven
(33:01):
a haircut, we'd get the two bits back. And all
the stuff was happening. We stood there and started to
watch shadow figures emerge and start walking down the hallway,
to the point where at one point we're watching a
procession of them walk right in front of our eyes
down the hallway, And that alone was kind of mind
blowing because that was the most intense shadow activity i'd
(33:22):
had to that point. But a little bit later on
in the evening, there was one shadow way down at
the end of the hall by itself, and we were
kind of calling him down, and over the course of
a good amount of time, we finally got him to
come down and stand in front of us. So we're
seeing this shadow person standing right before our eyes. There
was myself and about four other people, and I held
my hand out and this shadow person actually grabbed my hand,
(33:45):
wrapped its hand around my hand and began pumping my
arm up and down in a handshake motion. So I
shook hands with the shadow person. That is intense. It
really was the most intense thing that's ever happened to
me in an investigation because I just started crying. I
couldn't help it, Like the tears just started coming out
of my eyes because I realized, like all of this
(34:06):
stuff that I've been chasing around, I knew that it
was real. I knew the activity was real, but I
didn't realize the humanity behind it. And I went downstairs
and everybody could tell something had happened to me, and
I had to make the decision do I tell people
about what happened to me because they're not going to
believe me. And this is to this point, I'd done
a bunch of events, but I'd never been the person
(34:27):
to have the personal experience. I didn't want to be
because I knew people would think I was just making
it up because I want to sell tickets to the
next event. I was really nervous about saying anything. And
I talked with a friend of ours, Frank Grace, the photographer,
and he said, no, dude, you've got to tell people.
If it affected you that much, and when I told everybody,
you know, and actually everybody did believe me and was
very supportive, but it changed who I was as a
(34:49):
person and as an investigator going forward. I love that experience.
That's insane, and I wish that would happen to me,
like I would love nothing more that they're just very
cordially greet a ghost like would like a living person
in front of you, like a handshake and a hello, like.
I think that is amazing, and I think it also
shows the power of the personal experience. I think a
(35:09):
lot of us start doing this to collect evidence and
we want to, you know, prove that ghosts exist, or
we want to have something crazy happen, and then at
some point, like your equipment and collecting you know, evidence,
I say with air quotes, becomes so much less important
than these kind of personal experiences that solidify your theories
(35:31):
and your thoughts and again bring humanity to your experiences
and to these these spirits. And I think it makes
the more passionate type investigators like once you make that shift,
and so it sounds like that was that moment for you,
oh for sure, And it put a thought into my
head that I'm sure that you've had in your head
(35:53):
many times and your investigations too, where I thought to myself,
maybe I should stop doing this and just leave them alone.
But then, you know, you realize that they are reaching
out to you because they do have something to say,
and that you can be the conduit for that. You know,
obviously there are some spirits in some places that that
don't want to interact and so they just choose not to.
(36:14):
But um, I realized there that you know, to do
this now going forward. I was that person. I got
into this with that idea, I'm going to be the
person that's going to catch the evidence it's going to
prove to the world that goes too real. And then
that that was the night that made me realize that,
you know, it's not about that. It's about bringing people
to where they can have a one on one experience
to either you know, help them believe something they weren't
(36:34):
open to before, or to solidify that belief that they
always had but needed the proof. Right, Yeah, exactly. I mean,
I I love that, and you know it's it is
you know, to your point of kind of thinking for
a moment, should we leave them alone? You know, you
have to kind of instill like free will and free
thought on them, Like they will tell you if they
want you to leave them alone, but if they would
(36:56):
like to interact with you, they will. It's just like
any living person standing right in front of you, and
how many people do ignore them, you know, And that's
why there's people like us who do at least try
to reach out and in your case, actually shake their hand. Yeah,
And what I've found to be kind of the lasting
thing that stuck with me is that feeling of there
(37:19):
was no difference between me and whatever the thing was
that was shaking my hand. So you know, in some cases,
you look at these stories that you hear and people
will tell you, well, I saw their shadow figure and
it's I smelled sulfur, so it must have been a
demon or you know, you hear all these characterizations that
people have. That experience gave me enough of an up
close experience that I can say that I just I
(37:41):
feel comfortable around these entities that they really are just
another person and I don't need to start to worry
about all these you know, maybe maybe some of these
manifestations are other things, but from that point on, I
always kind of looked at everything as being you know,
just like me, and thinking about it that way has
changed the way that I asked the questions. It's the
way that I try to get interaction, and it's made
(38:02):
me feel better when I leave each location that I hopefully,
at the very least gave them some entertainment for the night.
Yeah seriously, Well, I'm sure you did, and I love that.
So now, on that note, tell us where people can
find you. What is Tim Wiseberg up to these days? Oh,
I'm always talking about the paranormal somewhere or other. But
(38:24):
my home base is the Spooky South Coast radio show
and podcast, which you can get anywhere podcasts are found.
I have my own network, the midnight FM network Midnight
dot FM, where I do a show on Friday nights
called Midnight Society. And basically, you know, for me, it's
all about any opportunity I can have to talk about
this stuff. So sometimes I might work behind the scenes
(38:44):
on things, sometimes I might be in front of the
camera on some things, but I you know, I'm always
looking for a way to make these stories kind of
more palatable for people, and to make it so that
they realize that when they do have something strange happened
to them. It's okay, it's the paranormals actually kind of normal. Yeah, well,
(39:06):
I thank you so much for coming on the show.
It's great to talk to you. And yeah, as always,
I super appreciate you Tim, you are an awesome person,
and everyone out there, I highly recommend you seek him
out if you are not familiar with him already. Like
I said, I was a Tim fan well before I
was ever on television. I was listening to Spooky South
(39:28):
Coast way back in the day in California. So it's
definitely well worth the seeking out of mister Weisberg. So
thank you, sir. I really appreciate you taking the time. Well,
thank you, and thank you for all your support over
the years. Potent Mansion has become that empty mansion in
(39:48):
the neighborhood that kids ride their bicycles by, quickly wondering
what could be lurking inside. It's the stuff of legends
and lore and most assuredly haunted. But I think good
stands as a reminder of something else, a lesson each
of us could take stock in the realization that you
can be on top of the world, you can have
(40:09):
every part of your beautiful life, meticulously planned and accounted for,
but one moment can derail it all horribly. Never forget that.
Always live life to its fullest, because you never know
when a dark hour may be lurking ahead. I'm Amy
Bruney and this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is hosted
(40:39):
and written by me Amy Bruney, with additional research by
Taylor Haggerdorn and Cassandra day Alba. This show is edited
and produced by Rima el Kali, with supervising producer Josh
Thane and executive producers Aaron Manky, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick.
Haunted Road is a production of iHeartRadio and Grimm and
(40:59):
Mile from Aaron Manke. Learn more about this show over
at Grimm Andmild dot com, and for more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
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