October 22, 2024 • 47 mins
One need not look very far to see that the television landscape has rapidly changed in the last few years, with an influx of new streaming platforms and shifting audience viewing patterns. Another notable upheaval: In 2023, Don Lemon, the Edward R. Murrow and Emmy Award-winning journalist and longtime host of “CNN Tonight with Don Lemon,” was let go from CNN after seventeen years with the network. Following his exit, Lemon took time for introspection, resulting in his new book, “I Once Was Lost: My Search for God in America.” The work is a deeply personal exploration of his spiritual journey and the role of religion in the country. It is Lemon’s third book, following “Transparent” and the #1 New York Times bestseller “This Is The Fire: What I Say to My Friends About Racism.” Earlier this year, the anchor launched his new endeavor, “The Don Lemon Show,” on YouTube and podcast platforms. Host Alec Baldwin speaks with Don Lemon about the shakeup at CNN, the role of his faith in trying times and the importance of the press and the First Amendment in a free society.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from iHeart Radio. The last few years have seen
drastic changes in the rapidly evolving landscape of cable and
streaming television. You know the times have changed when even
the news is making news. At CNN, there were reports
(00:22):
of chaos and uncertainty, the sudden resignation of President Jeff Zucker,
followed by the installation of his successor, Chris Licked, and
drastic changes to their lineup. One of the biggest changes
moving my guest Today. CNN Tonight anchored Don Lemon to
Mornings after a decade in prime time. Shortly after, Lemon
(00:45):
made some controversial comments on air and was unceremoniously fired
from the network seventeen years into his tenure. Now, he
has released a book, I Once Was Lost My Search
for God in America, a day deeply personal journey of
his faith through difficult times that also takes a hard
look at politics and religion in America today. The Emmy
(01:09):
winning journalist launched a new series earlier this year, The
Don Lemon Show, on streaming podcast platforms and on YouTube.
I wanted to know how he made the decision of
where to launch his new show.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
YouTube is the number one network in the world. It
has surpassed Netflix. It's because everyone has that computer in
their pocket, and that is the new television. It's the
same thing you watch it, but it's just a different
form of distribution. So if I can go there, create
content and pretty much do exactly what I want to do,
why not?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
And that's why I chose YouTube.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Also, Alec, I have some contractual obligations. As you know,
you're in the business, you have non competes and all
of that. So I had to find a place where
I could go and do what I do and create
my cable non network that doesn't compete with my contract
at the old place.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Now I want to touch on that, I'm going to
We've got two things here, obviously, career and faith. The
book is called I Once Was Lost, and I went
to your book signing event where you were interviewed by Zucker,
who was very funny. By the way, I was surprised.
He's very good. So you go to YouTube overcly there's
a non compete aspect in there, but to describe your
(02:22):
career in television and when that ended, what ended? You
started at CNN. What year two thousand and six and
you started doing what I started.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
As let's see, Oh wow, it's been so long ago.
Two thousand and six. I was the afternoon anchor on
CNN Newsroom from one to four in the afternoon, And
you did that for how long? I did that for
about eight years or so?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Eight years?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, yeah, thirteen to fourteen. I moved on.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I moved to New York.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I was in Atlanta, and you move on to do
what show? I moved on to do. I did weekend
evenings for a while to sort of create, you know,
get my own voice, develop my own voice. And then
Jeff Souker took over and said, hey, you're pretty talented.
Who was in charge of before Zucker Jim Walton was
ahead of the network here, and Zuker took over, and
he wanted you want in the evening? He put you
on in the evening. Yes, I went to Zucker because
(03:10):
I did. I hated Atlanta and I'm a New Yorker
even though I grew up in Louisiana, I'm a New
Yorker by heart. And I said, hey, listen, it's been
great working here. I'm out of here, I said, I
can't live in Atlanta anymore. So thanks, you know, I'm
glad you just took over the network. Blah blah blah
blah he said, he said, yeah, he said, you don't
have to You're moving to New York.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
And that was it. And you did the evening on
the weekends, and then you did your evening show starting
when how long was he so weekends?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I did the evenings on the weekends for a while.
I think I did the evenings for you know, five years.
Look the afternoon, I'm sort of, you know, sort of
mixing that in the evening because I started the evening
in Atlanta and then I continue the evening in New York.
And Jeff would sort of mentor me, you know, because
he's he watched twenty four hours a day, so breaking
news tell you. He would say, breaking news, I need
(03:56):
you to stay on for another hour. We're going to
blow out the medical ship and need you to stay
on and do this, repeat the breaking news.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Or he didn't coach about style, No, no, not at all,
because he liked my style.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
He liked me being me.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
He's he would if anything, he would say, lean into it,
so he would say, you know, recap, tell the audience
you know it's breaking news, what it is. He wouldn't
tell me what to say. He would say a good
question might be something like this, and I wouldn't ask it,
you know, exactly as he would say if I wanted
to do it. But he wouldn't get upset if I
didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
So you could do audibles like quarterbacks.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yes, I could. And then he started. I had me
filling in on every single show. I'd fill in the afternoon,
I'd fill in the morning, I would do my evening show,
and he would send me on big stories and he
was he really developed me.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And you started doing your show, the big show, the
evening show.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Win I started doing my show. Aaron Burnett went out
on maternity leave and Jeff said, I want you to
take over for her from maternity leave. So her entire
couple months she was off, I filled in seven o'clock show.
It was me and I did my weekend show. So
I was working seven days a week and I didn't
mind it.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I loved it. Actually, you're doing the mornings, and you're
doing and morning shows, which have become so bizarre to me,
I know, I said to people, and I love all
these people. I mean, I love Katie Cork. But the
last time I watched the Today Show was when Katie
Cork was on with lour and they did a I
guess maybe it was for Halloween. They all dressed up
and clothing and they sang diamonds are a Girl's best
(05:21):
friend as she's walking down a staircase, a glittering staircase
or whatever, and I thought, I'm done. I don't know,
I want the news, maybe tell some jokes or whatever.
But they turned it into an entertainment show. But mornings
it's obviously a different ball game. Even weekends, maybe you're
a different ballgame. So what adjustments do you have to
make in your style to be on in the evening?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Oh well, I'm an evening guy. The only reason I
did the mornings is because and you told me, you know,
when I did the she said, no one wants to
see you in the morning, And you were right. I'm
not a morning person. I'm not very good in the morning.
I'm not good on coffee. Caffeine makes me jittery. I
don't know what I'm saying or doing. So I did
it because my company asked me to do it, and
I was being a team player, but it was not
a good fit for me. The adjustment is is that
(06:01):
you're constantly sleeping. You have to get up. I'm a
night oul. I don't him to go to bed until
two or three in the morning, and I'm up at
you know, maybe ten right before I would you know,
i'd have to wake up when I mean, when I
was doing the mornings, I have to wake up at
four in the morning, right, I know it'll be It
was really, really tough. So that's really the adjustment. I'm
a cool cat at night. I like it, and I
like that that late time slot. Working at night, I
(06:23):
do too, and I get my best idea yea, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I do movies.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And the guy said to me, we're in a black
box theater shooting this movie for all these scenes inside
this theater for a month in Florida. And he says, so,
no windows, know nothing, no light dependent at all. He goes,
we can shoot whenever we want. He goes, what time
you want to go to work? Love it? And I said, none,
I'm going to shooting noon to midnight. Yeah. We did.
We shot noon to midnight for four weeks and I
(06:47):
was in heaven. I was like, man, I'm just getting going.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, I like about seven or eight at night, like
my best work. I don't wake up that late, but
my best work is at night. So having that ten
o'clock slot was perfect for me. And then you know,
I was on until midnight every night, but that was
when I would get that energy.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And you like being solo. Oh, I love the co
anchors for a while. It's tough you didn't like that format. No,
I'm a team player, but not in that way. I
have my own flow and everybody can't keep up with me,
you know, and and doubles tennis, they're not the best partner. Yeah,
at your game, and you got to you gotta have
a good part of that. You have to have someone
who can keep up with you.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And you know, I don't mean that in a you know,
I'm not diminishing anyone, but someone like a Kara Swisher
personal Yeah, like someone like a Kara Swisher or a
Joy Behar or someone they could keep up with me.
They get my sense of humor and they don't take
anything personally and they can give it or take it
as good as they give it, right, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I love that kind of but they didn't want to
demonize or criminalize your moderances.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
No, because they they under they they their pals and
they get me.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
It's not personal.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
It's just we're just we're just sitting having a conversation
and people say all kinds of things and conversations and
it's not personal.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
It's just your talking. And when you talk, you say
things and you.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Go, ah, I don't mean that, Okay, all right, right,
so I said some shit, that was great, whatever, and
you just move on. But you can't do that with everybody,
because you know, especially like younger folks, everything is like
a personal affront.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Well, you walk in on the set of a project,
and when you're around young people, I find that there's
a potential for certain difficulties. So I've never had any
problems with this myself. I never had any I've had
other problems obviously, but not that one. And you walk
onto the set, especially of a film, and you're there
and people they're tents. You don't realize how tense there.
(08:29):
They're scared younger people. You come on and there. I mean,
I've made whatever number of movies, I made one hundred movies,
ninety movies, whatever. I take pictures with people now, But
I got taught by somebody famous. You put your arm
out and they hook their elbow around your elbow, and
they go, why do you want to do that? A
few of them would say, and I say, I can't
put my hand behind your body, and you got it.
My hand can't be hidden behind your back in the
(08:50):
photogo all the games you got to play now? Which
are which? Was not concerned?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
No, but you're right about that. You said you've done
so many movies. I had been. I think I was
doing the afternoons from six about nine, and then I
started doing the weekend evenings, and so I'd been doing
the weekend evenings. I'd been solo, I should say, from
about two thousand and nine to twenty twenty three or
twenty twenty two, and so I was just used to
my own flow and people, you know, were used to
(09:15):
me just being me, and so I had been there
for quite some time solo anchor. And you know, people
come in and they're like they you know, they don't
get it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
You know, now when you do a show like that
for people who don't know, because I find this behind
the scenes very interesting. You come in there you come in.
The show was on the air at ten. The big
show was on a ten. He did the pass too
with Chris, and then everybody thought that was very entertaining
the two of you.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's the biggest compliment that people say about that and
about my show. They say that was the last appointment
television for the network. Was that handoff and then going
on the show.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah. But the thing that people don't understand is you
get there what time?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
It would depend. If I had a pre tape, I
would go in earlier. But at the end I moved
across the street from the office, so it would take
me literally a minute, minute and a half to be
on the set because I lived and it was in
huts and yards. So I would go to work probably
about eight eight thirty.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
So You're out there at three o'clock writing.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
No, I'm doing that from home, got it because basically
my office is not much further from the set than
my home was. But before that, I would probably get
to work about six, right And the reason I did
that part of it was because of Jeff. Jeff said,
why are you working on the show so early?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Your show?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Why are you guys in the morning meeting the morning
meetings at nine in the morning. Your show is twelve
hours away, a half a day away. Everything's going to
change exactly, So what are you doing? And I found
that when I would study for all of this stuff
and just study, study, study, and over prepare, and then
by the time the show came about at ten o'clock,
it would be a whole different show.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
And I'd say, why the hell didn't know? Would I
do this? You got to be more plod set, to
learn to be nimble. Now you're there doing a show
like that. How much do director I'm talk about technical
directors with cameras in a studio? Are the directors, segment producers, writers?
Who's got your ear in terms of content while you're
doing the show? So it's my executive producer? And how
many of those did you have when you were on
(11:07):
the big show?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I had one executive producer who is and then Maria Spanella,
and then I had my own personal producer, and then
there were segment producers. And so if there was a
segment that someone had prepared and they needed to be
in the control room, usually they stood there anyways, and
so the segment producer would get in my ear. But
usually it was the executive producer, but sometimes they would say,
you know, I would say it was nineteen times and
(11:28):
they'd go ninety ninety and I'm going because sometimes you
don't realize what you say right. You'll just read something
wrong or you just say something wrong, and so they
would correct me. But it was mostly the director and
the executive producer, and mostly the director who would say, okay,
thirty seconds out, ten seconds out camera two, so start
on camera two and I'm going to turn you to three.
Stand by, you know, the whole thing, three two and
(11:50):
go camera one, turn and then you do that that
sort of thing, right, And then you know, they would
say yeah, and you'd say you know, and it's fourteen
people and they'd say graphic and I'd go, take to
look at your screen, that it's up on the screen
right now, blah blah blah blah blah, and then you
talk about blah. And then they'd say on cam and
then I'd look back up and go, okay.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Then just someone's directing your performance. Yeah, directing.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
They just just to know where I'm going.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Technically, right, but they're directing your your tone or no.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
If I was off on something, someone would say she
says something she'd say like, all right, watch it up,
wastch your tone? Yeah, or yeah, you're you're dragging a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Are you tired?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Whatever you want us to bring? You want us to
bring your coffee, diet coke or something, yeah, Or I'm
gonna send makeup in. You're shiny, but that sort of thing.
That's it small small.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Now I'm assuming that when Licked comes in, this is
just zas Love wants things his way. This is his
magiem it's now it's going to be my CNN. So
Zucker's gone and he brings Licked in and when Zucker's
gonna gone? How much advanced notice did you have the
Zuker was leaving? Oh that I mean that was in
the news, right, so not much. Did you know when
he was going to be gone and someone else was
(12:53):
coming in who was going to run the company? You
didn't know.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
No, no one, no one, No one gave you what
any dance. No, it was in the it was in
the morning meeting. When it happened. I was in La,
and I forget what I was doing. It made have
an award season or something.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I forget.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I was in La doing a project for the network,
and I took the Red Eye and I got home
and went to sleep, and I woke up to a
lot of text messages and I was like, wait, what
is this. It always happens that way. That happened that
way when when Chris was let go, Chris linked and
my executive Priss said, don Jeff just resigned in the
(13:27):
morning meeting, and I was like, wait what And then
he called me and he said I didn't have a
chance to tell you whatever, blah blah blah. And you know,
he called everybody afterwards, but he did. I don't think
he really had any notice himself, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Well, I kind of equate him. This is just my opinion,
by the way, which is meaningless, but I kind of
equate him with Ronnie Meyer when they let Ronnie Meyer
go for similar reasons his personal life, and you want
to sit there and you want to go, well, I'm
running a company now and I'd like this guy to go,
and that's my excuse to let him go. And I
really was going to bring in another guy because I
want my I want to run my CNN, but he's gone,
(14:00):
like Universal, I think Ronnie Meyer hit the point where
he was making like forty million dollars a year, and.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
They were like, no, yeah, we need you to go. Look,
I'll let you say that. But you're a smart guy.
So but here, you know, Jeff is the last of
a TV executive, the celebrity TV executive Mavericks. Right, everyone
is so risk averse now they're afraid, you know, they're
with the stockholders wanting all that. He really protected us
(14:24):
from the overlords, right from the corporate you know overlords.
He really did his guts, his guts and he's like,
you know, this is journalism. I understand what you do
because he did what they did, right. He ran NBC
and he understood it. But he's really a journalist at
heart because he started at the Today Show and he
started in the news person there. He had a good
(14:45):
run there, and then he went to run the news
division at NBC, and then he entertainment. Then he ran
the entire network. So he really and we didn't realize it,
you know, until he was gone.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
When Licked comes, like most executives, I assume when you're
the top tier talent on the show that they come with.
Is it like dinners and whining and dining and getting
to know each other and everything's well and you don't
really know where it's going to go, and then it
goes the wrong way. Yeah, there's a little of that. Yeah,
there's a little of that. It's polite, it's polite, yeah
in the beginning. Yeah, and then things changed, right. Well,
(15:18):
I mean I just find that odd because I just
feel like I won't name names, but I've known a
couple of people who are execs at film studios, especially TV,
where the that conveyor belt is moving and they can't
press pause. They have a plan which seems to be
everybody's plan.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Years ago it was a plan. Now it's everybody's plan,
which is, if I can't raise revenue, I got to
cut costs. So it's just a lot of firing, a
lot of budget cutting.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
But don't you think to a certain extent that when
your job is protected and mentioned in the First Amendment,
that there should be some exemption from that whole thing.
Like I don't think the news division should be solely
or wholly in large part driven by revenue and numbers,
numbers and ratings. It shouldn't because you're supposed to give information,
(16:01):
you're supposed to hold people who are in power hold
into account.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
But you told me that when we were at the
book party. I raised my hand, I asked the question.
I said, the networks and traditional media, mainstream media, have
they lost young people? And you said, they haven't lost,
but they're losing. And then you went on to talk
about the people who are considered through some research who
quoted to being about being the most informed people get
their news from where.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
They get their news digitally? Right, Yeah, and listen, the
older people get their news from you know, they watch,
they sit they they watch cable news all day, they
watch six thirty or they you know, they're watching the
morning shows or they're doing that. Younger people are getting
their news on TikTok or whatever. But the most informed
people are they'll go on digitally. They'll watch something on YouTube,
They'll watch whatever, even if they go to you know,
(16:46):
Twitter or TikTok or whatever. But then they'll do their
research and they are media literate and more media savvy.
I find the people who sit in front of the
television all day have an unconscious or built in bias
because you can tell from whatever network they're watching. But
by the time they get to the arguments around the table,
the panels they don't know what they actually came there for,
(17:09):
what the point of the whole segment was.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
That's what they conveyed to me. Well, the shows which
are moderated shows, which are these s mash pits, and
everybody's going at it. I think more and more people
that realize now that it's not worth their time. I
always say to people, what do I watch? I said,
I watch Wolf Blitzer straight. I call them straight no chaser, right, right, right,
it's just like happening now. Just tell me what the
stop stories are and then I want to go have
dinner with my wife. You know, give me ten fifteen
(17:32):
minutes on my couch. I watched in every night. Every night, Yeah,
watch Blitzer. I watch MSNBC only when I come home.
I watched Blitzer. I go to dinner, I come back
and I watch Lawrence O'donaldy. Yeah, every night.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I like Lawrence, I like Rachel I like But I
think it's different when you're in primetime, as you know,
it's just like when you do you know, in primetime
you just sitcoms or whatever. It's different than something that's
on during the day, right, And I think it's the
same thing with cable news. Now, I don't believe that.
For networks, that's a different thing. You got six thirty
and it's straight, no chaser, good evening and we're gonna
start in Afghanistan and whatever it is. And then but
(18:03):
at night, if you're watching cable, it's more of a
personal experience and it's a longer sort of flow. And
people they wanted to be appointment television, and they wanted
to be someone familiar with, someone they trust, someone who
can actually maybe tell them a little bit how they feel.
People would say, I wasn't sure about it. Dom then
I watched you and I said, you know what, that
guy's right, and I think that's okay. I don't agree
(18:24):
with everything, hardly anything that Sean Hannity says, but he's
perfect for a primetime cable show, right, he's and he's
a star.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I don't little O'Reilly. We had a great delivery, and
he was a real broadcaster. I didn't agree with the
word he said either.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I've always said that about Bill O'Reilly. He's a great performer.
And I would watch him and I would take notes
and go that guy is good and the same thing,
and people are gonna, you know, gonna go, Oh my gosh,
I can't believe he said that. Same thing with Megan Kelly,
I don't agree with anything she says. She's turned out
to me the biggest troll and she flipped up. Oh
my gosh, it's embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I went to a book party of first with my wife,
but when she.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Was the same we were at that same party. Yeah,
on the rooftop of a hotel somewhere eeah. But she
at that time, I think she was on at eight
or nine o'clock or whatever at night.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
She was perfect for that hour.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
She's a great performer. She comes on and she's energy whatever,
and you know, the morning Speaking of people being out
of position, the morning show is not her position, I believe,
just like it wasn't. I was in in position as well.
And that's the thing about a good media or news executive.
They know what positions people should be playing, so you
need that sort of a personality. Same thing with Chris.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Chris is a star.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
He's great for cable news at night. Chris Cuomo, he's
great for cable news at night. I thought I was
great for cable news at night, you know, and people
wanted to tune in. They wanted to tune into us.
Rachel Maddow perfect cable news host.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
But I think that people when I watch news, having
grown up and having had news having a very sacred
place in my life. It was sacred. The news was
very important to me. And now when I see the news,
it's just weird. There's a chemistry. You have to have
a chemistry with that person, you know, like I used
to listen to He's a good friend of mine. I
love Kurt Anderson. And when Kurt had that show Studio
(20:02):
three sixty on NPO, I loved that show. That was
my favorite podcast, along with This American Life for Kurt Anderson.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And you don't feel you have that connection to any
of the news folks with you.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I love watching you on TV. I'm not just saying
that I thought you were great. I mean were you
had the right chemistry. I mean beyond you being a
handsome guy and being stylish and being this and that.
Thank you, but you had a great delivery. It was
really it was easy to watch you where there's people
that I watch and I go.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Well, maybe a little less of you, But it's the
same thing with knowing who's a good reporter and who's
a good anchor. Very few people can do both, and
people don't realize it. They don't understand that like anchoring
a show, it's another world. It's not easy and you
have to hold someone's attention. But I think now in
this day and age, people think that, Okay, they're a
good reporter, so therefore they're a good anchor, and I
disagree with that. You can have someone who can anchor
(20:47):
a show who is not necessarily the best journalists in
the world, but they're interesting. But when there are big
breaking news stories, then you throw to the person who's
the good report.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
The YouTube thing is on what time? Now, you're on
the air? One I'm on the air.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Well, it lives forever on YouTube. But I do a
five o'clock show every day, which was not how I
envisioned doing it. I do a five o'clock live show
every day where I just talk to the subscribers and
talk to them about things that's happening and what they
should know before they know go home or have dinner.
But then I just started one at ten am, which
is sort of a hot topic show where I'm trying
to get away from the politics, you know, and the
(21:23):
hard news and do things that are a little lighter.
But everything in the zeitgeist now is politics. You know,
they're eating the dogs or eating the cats. That goes over.
You know, it also bills over.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Author and anchor Don Lemon. If you enjoy conversations with
famous broadcasters, check out my episode with the legendary Dan Rather.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
When the first faint edge is what we came to
know is Watergate, you can do e merge. I was
skeptical that it would reach the Oval Office itself. You
never met anybody who had more respect for the office
or the presidency in the United States than I do.
It was very difficult for me to accept that the
president himself would be involved in any way. However, as
(22:06):
time went along, facts begin to first whisper, then they
begin to speak in full voice, and then the facts
begin to shout. It isn't just lower level campaign operatuities,
It isn't just lower level members of the administration that
this probably goes into the Oval Office itself.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
To hear more of my conversation with Dan Rather, go
to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Don
Lemon tells us how a tragic event led to him
rethinking his relationship with God and with his faith. I'm
(22:51):
Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. Don
Lemon's new book, I Once Was Lost My Search for
God in America details his very personal examination of his faith.
But this is not Lemon's first foray in the publishing world.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I've written three books. This is a fire debut at
number one New York Times during the George Floyd thing
when that all happened in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
And the first thing I said to you when I
came backstage to just give you a quick carg at
the book party was you should write another book.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
And I'm like, God, oh know, man, it's tough, Alec,
It's so tough, and you don't know, you know it was.
It was easier in the sense. What was easier was
the selling of the book, when I had that big
engine behind me of CNN, where I could mention at
any moment, you know, it's in my book, and by
the way, you can go buy it and blah blah
blah blah blah. Or in the commercial break, I would
say throw my book up, and as we go to
commercial and say, by the way, my book is on
(23:43):
sale and you can get it at Barnes and Noble
or any local book store. They were fine, that would
help them, and so I was able to do that
with that book. I can't do with this book. I
have to sell this book, which is good for you know.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I don't mind.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
I can't do it on YouTube. Ye of course I
do it on YouTube. I think some people are getting
sick of it. But writing it is hard. It's like
you're putting your heart out there. It's like you're wearing
your heart outside of your body, not in the way
that you have kids. But you don't know how people
are going to receive it, if they're going to trample on,
if they're going to trash you, if it's going to sell.
It's just the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And you know it's more personal than anything you might
do because it's you and you don't I make a movie.
Somebody else is directing the movie. Yeah, what I mean? Now,
you come from a I don't want to say religious,
so that you use the word. You want to describe
the family you came from in terms of faith.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Well, I came from a family who was faithful. Let's
put it that way. They had faith. My mother was
not as churchy, as they say, as my aunt was.
She's got Alzheimer's now a holy roller. You know, she'd
never missed a sermon. She was on the usher board
and all of that stuff. My mom was in the choir,
but she wasn't quite as religious as her the rest
(24:48):
of her family, but my grandmother was as well. You know,
they were members and you pay their dues. I'm sure
my mom still pays dues for the church. She just
doesn't go as often as as you know, one would think.
But I went to I grew up Baptist. I would
go to church, and then I'd go to Sunday Bible
School in the Baptist Church, and then I'd go to
vacation Bible School in the summer in the Baptist Church.
(25:09):
And during the week during the school year, I went
to the Catholic school and we would do Catechism, and
then we'd have Mass on Friday every Friday, and then
if it was a special holiday, we'd have Mass then.
And then in the morning we would line up like
a military school, hand out front of the hands on
the shoulder, and we'd line up by height, and then
we'd have the announcement and we'd do the Star Spangled
(25:31):
banner and the pledge allegiance, and then we would pray,
and then we'd go to class in lines like a
military school. And then you would before you go to
recess or whatever you talked about in the book howbouch
you liked pray? I liked it because it was because
it gave you discipline and you had a regiment and
we're part of something. You were part of something, and
there was a stability there that you had. You know, Okay,
we got to go to the recess. We stand up,
(25:52):
we pray that we're going to be safe at recess,
and then we all line up and we go down
to the yard and we have the recess, and then
we come back. And then before we went to lunch,
we'd pray, you know, over our meal, and then we
come back and we pray whatever. So and then if
an adult enter the class, you'd say good afternoon, mister
ball went, and you'd stand up, and we did not
sit down until mister Baldwin would say you were told
(26:15):
to good afternoon class.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
You may be seated, you may be seated. It was
a different world, amazing, right, you know my faith. I'm
a Catholic and I'm still Catholic, and I go to
church periodically. I go into waves and I go to
hear that man speak. Yeah, I'm in Los Angeles and
Father Torchisen, who was the head guy there at Saint Monica's,
I go hear him speak. I go went to the
(26:36):
city and go to Blessed Sacrament on seventy first Street
off of Broadway, and watched this a couple of guys speak.
But my guys in East Tampton who came out for
the swing mass in the summertime. So I go down
in the summer and I get my community and I
wait for him as he came out of the recessional
before everybody else mobbed him, and I said to me,
he's alone. I get him a lot. I'd pull him
aside from the other people with a recession and I go,
(26:57):
I want to do the confession the reconcilly face to face.
And he literally he's like this kid from Rosedale Queens.
She goes, ah, you want to do that? He goes,
oh please, I go no, I want to do that.
I want to please. I can't stand that, because are
you sorry for what you did in the name of
the Father and the son, the onlysp you're absolved. Oh please,
don't make me do that. Like we were pals. That's
why we're not in that racket anymore. We're friends. And
(27:19):
I thought, oh God, I can't believe that much this
church has changed. Change. You want to do that? You
know you want to do that? Please? He said, get away.
I don't want to talk about that nonsense. And I
was like, Oh God, who's going to hear my confession
on him? See, my friend.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I still can remember my the priest's voices in my
We have Father Hines, I can remember his big deep
and then we had Father Elwood, and I can just remember.
Their voices are stuck in my head because I was
in Catholic Church so much.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But I want to switch to this idea that obviously
with what I've been through in recent couple of years,
this very difficult situation I was dealing with. It was
painful on a level I can't even give words do.
I literally can't even describe to people how much I
suffered from that. And you where is the summoning of
your faith in your adult life? And in recent years
when there was tough times for you, did you get
(28:07):
into digging for help in that direction. Yes I did.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
But first of all, I whant to say, I'm happy
that that's over. And you know everyone was praying for you,
and we all got what was happening, so I can
thank you for standing tough.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So, yes, I've always been a faithful person, but as
my mother is, I'm not a churchy person, but I'm
a believer and I've always prayed and hoped and had faith,
and I've had to summon it more often than not.
I don't wear it on my sleeve because I don't
believe in that. I don't believe in pushing my faith
my religion on anyone else, and it's a personal thing
(28:42):
for me. I had a crisis of faith in twenty
eighteen when my sister died suddenly in an accidental drowning,
and that was I started thinking about this, how was she?
She was I think fifty nine at the time, and
I started to question God, like, why would God do that?
You know, it's supposed to be a benevolent God, and
I know there are bad things that happened all the time,
and you realize that intellectually until something happens to you,
(29:04):
right and you go, why did this happen to me?
And so I asked why?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Why? Why?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
And I dug deep and then I said why not?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And I tried to figure out, you know, why this
was why? I read that somewhere, wasn't there quote in
the book about someone said well why?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
There was a quote in the book. But also I'd
heard that before. But also Anderson Cooper's mom, Gloria Bennerbilt,
said the same thing. She said, you know, people would
go why me, why me?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Why me? Why not me?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
And then there was in my family there was a
similar sort of saying why not You so figure out
why it happened to you? Why this is happening to you,
And there's there's a reason, and maybe it's just to
make you stronger.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I would much prefer not to go through such things.
And so I started questioning, why would God take my sister.
She has beautiful kids, she has beautiful grandkids. She was
so proud of her grandson, who was a great basketball player,
a great football player.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
She went every game like what why? Why?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Why son? That happened? And then after I started thinking
about this book, and then the George Floyd thing happened,
and I had pitched this George Floyd book and no
one wanted to buy it. Not George Floyd, but about racism,
and no one wanted to buy it. And then you know,
the thing happened and everyone's like, can.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
You write that book?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And I'm like, okay. So I wrote it and it
was number one. But I started having this sort of
crisis of faith, and then I started writing the book,
and it was going to be sort of this, you know,
a coda to the last book, and where I was
just going to you know, move from racism and a
little bit more into religion. And I was going to
interview religious figures and people folks like you, and talk
about their faith. And then when I left CNN, it
(30:32):
became something else. I think it became a much better
and more personal book. So yes, it's a long story short,
a long story long. I have had, you know, points
in my life where I had to lean on my
religion and the Lord, and I don't really talk to
people about it.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, it's interesting when you work in this business. It
could be anywhere film and television or news of whatever medium,
cable or of streaming network you're around and you said
this word a lot on the book cynical. You're around
a lot of cynical people.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, and that's what journalists are generally, right, generally.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
You're right there, of course they are. And you sit
there and you think, what's it like to go minute
to minute through an experience with a bunch of cynical people, Like,
was there anybody at work who was faith based even
to some degree you could talk about it with? Was
it all just family and close friends and tim?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
It was all just family and family and close friends,
But mostly it was just me Alan, right, I didn't
I don't know. It's an inside job. And I remember,
you know, things would get so tough because doing what
I did was a very stressful. There's a high pressure job,
high wire job, every night live and you're like, oh,
something comes out of your mouth and there's always something
(31:41):
Why did you say this?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Why do you do this?
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Other people hate you here, other than mad at you here?
You got to give this response here and I'm like,
oh my god, Like why most people just go it's
nine to five job, they go home. It's like you
screwed up up, you know, you round it up, you know, yeah,
so and then you get over it and then when
that would happen to my sister and all the other
things that would happen, I would count. I would say,
you know, God got my steps, one, two, three, and
(32:04):
I would just count my step. I would take step
by step, by step by step, and I would count
my steps to the studio sometimes, especially when my sister died,
because you never knew when it was going to hit you,
and so I would have to like think about things
that go, you know, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, steps. Okay, tonight,
I'm going to talk about you know, Trump and you know,
very fine people on both sides, both sides, and I
(32:24):
would just have to keep and I would say, Lord,
when I get there, help me see both sides, or
help me whatever. And then I would just I would
just pay it and say, okay, you know, get the
IFB on it. And then I'd say, okay, God, here
we go. Just don't let it happen. Don't let me
get sad during the middle of a segment of start
crying or whatever, and so let me be focused or whatever.
And then you know, the music would come up and
(32:45):
I would just I would say, and when they would
say go, that's when I would snap out.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Of it right with this New Mexico event. I sat
there saying to myself, what do you want me to do?
There must be something you want me to do, you
want me to change, you want me to do this
or that. I prayed harder for them to dismiss the
case prior on the gun charge, and they denied us.
So when I go to trial and I didn't get
my way before, and I begged God, I begged, I'll
(33:12):
never forget. I watched the crown and the Queen of
England is on her knees praying next to her bed,
and I go, if the Queen of England can get
on her knees and pray, why can't I? And I
got on my knees, and sometimes I'm crying, and I go, please,
what do you want me to learn from this and
do from this? I said, please make this case be
dismissed on this charge. And later on it played out
(33:32):
the way it played. I go, if you take your
hands off the steering wheel and stop white knuckling the
steering wheel and trying to control and manage everything, maybe
something wonderful with results.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yes, that was the hand of God. Yeah, Sometimes you
just have to say you know, as you said, take
your hands off the wheel and just pray that you're
going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
What do you want me to do? I'm okay with
whatever you will is show me. So did you let me?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I'm going to be a journalist.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Did it change you? That situation changed me a lot
in terms of my feelings about having my children and
getting be married and having so many kids, which is
something that I you know, I kind of knew what
I was doing, and people don't think you do. Then
they go, you wake up one morning and somebody goes, oh,
h peede on a stick, and oh guess what.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
You know?
Speaker 1 (34:14):
It's like, it's not all silly, and COVID happened, the
strike happened, and overlapping with the strike was also my
problem in New Mexico. What it made me do is
people would say, my god, now you can get back
to your old life, and I go, I don't want
to get back in my own lives.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
That's what I'm asking you.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
This is my life now? Are you kids?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Are you more compassionate?
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yes? If compassion means everybody I meet, I have to
say to myself, they're going through somebody. Now I want
to switch the topic or to you with fame and
bed carpets.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
But I understand how you feel, especially about because people
when they meet me, they say you're different than what
I read about, because people often let their enemies and
their detractors define them, and you know, similarly to you,
the right wing media hates me, so they write the
worst shit about me, And then people meet me who
are conservative and even Trump supporters, and they're like, you're
not at all like what I read about in the
(35:01):
New York Post, and you're like, no, I'm not that
person at all.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Is it funny how you can be somewhere in a
kind of benign setting. You're walking through a park and
with my kids at some store, and you see people
and you see the way within under a second, with
in a fraction of a second, you see them regard
you in a way with their eyes where you who
know they're maga Republicans and they're like, oh god, it's him. Yeah.
And I go walk into them and their kids playing,
and I go, what's this little one's name? And you
(35:25):
try to charm them and they're totally freaked out. They're like,
my god, I can't normalize you, like I can't handle
that right now. You're an asshole and you have to
remain an asshole that. I know that very well. Journalist
and anchor Don Lemon, If you're enjoying this conversation, tell
a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing
on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
(35:50):
When we come back, Don Lemon shares his thoughts on
the cancel deal with Elon Musk and the X platform.
Following just one broadcast, I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening
to here is the Thing. Don Lemon's recent wedding to
(36:12):
his partner of eight years, Tim Malone, was heavily covered
in the press. The pair are often photographed on the
red carpet and at stylish events like New York Fashion Week.
I wanted to know how a serious newsman navigates his
relationship with fame.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
That is not why I got into the business, it says,
you know, right, And I didn't get into this business thing.
I was going to make a lot of money, but
you became. But I became famous, And you know what,
I'm enjoying my life. I'm happy. And if that fame,
if that comes with it. If I get a better
table at a restaurant, then so be it.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
But does that enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, I'm enjoying it. And there are so many people
who came before me who didn't get to do that.
And just because I'm a journalist, it doesn't mean that
I'm not a person. It doesn't mean that I don't
enjoy getting out and meeting people. Doesn't mean that I
don't enjoy going on red carpets and going to you know,
beautiful events. Why wouldn't I. I'm a human being. I
think it's okay. Just because you're a journalist, it doesn't
(37:10):
mean that you're not, you know, a full person, a
multi dimensional person.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And I am.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And so, you know what, I'm just enjoying my life.
I'm grateful that i'm here. I don't know how many
days are ahead of me, and while i'm here, I'm
going to get the best out of it.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
The only reason you're on those red carpets is you're
good looking. That's you. I think it's about you. Maybe
it's I don't know. I think it's both.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yes, But I also think I'm there because I am
enjoying it. If I wasn't enjoying it, I wouldn't be there.
I enjoyed my job. I enjoyed what I you know,
my profession and what I did, and I think that
that shines through and so I think that that's what
made me, you know, a star, so to speak, right
in this business.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Even those your warmth, No would I that's important. There's
a magic mist that has to exude from you. It
has to be admitted by you on camera, whether it
comes through your eyes or anywhere you have to convey
to your audience. There's no place out. So I'd rather
be than here with you right rightly. When you do
see that, you go, Hi, I'm Don Lemon, and tonight
I want to tell you Oldbeppa.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
They're with you, yes, And you know what, I couldn't wait.
I would tell them like I couldn't wait to get
here to tell you this story today.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
So let's go. It's like the journalists equivalent of someone
walking up to and going, would you like to dance?
Shall we dance? It's an engagement between you when your Yeah. Now,
two quick things. One is the election. And I believe
that everybody who talks and kind of piles on online
or anywhere about Trump is completely wasting their time. What
else are there to say about him? Do you believe
in polls.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I believe poles are a snapshot in time. I believe
in polls less so now than I did before. We
all learned our lesson from twenty sixteen and then twenty
twenty as well. But I think this time is going
to be surprising. I think it's going to be surprising.
I think she has a real chance. We had no
chance with Biden or I admired, I my operation for him,
but he was old. But I think there's a hidden
(38:51):
vote for Trump with black men. I think even with
some women that you know, they still love him. And
I think with college students, I don't I know, and
I don't get it either.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I don't get it, but I don't get Also, is
it there's a person who came in who knew nothing
about government. He held no office, not even a mayoralty,
not a governor, or as an executive, not a legislator
in Congress or a state house. He knew nothing about government,
and he served in the White House for four years
and he still doesn't know anything.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So it doesn't know you know what the people are,
what they do. We're shocking to me, It shouldn't be shocking.
But the folks on his side say she's not qualified
and she has no experience, and I'm like, wait, do
you know who you're supporting?
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Am I Are you insane? She's a senator, vice president,
she's the attorney general. She's a bright woman. Yeah, she's
everything he isn't. Yeah, all right, Musk, I just want
to say with Musk, you know, Musk is like we
were joking before you got into the Musk to me
is like Howard Hughes meets Mickey Rooney. He's like this loopy,
nutty guy that's constantly slamming the door in his hand
(39:50):
and screwing himself up public relations wise. But he's also
an engineering genius or whatever, and he's made all this
money and sold cars, which are one of the most
difficult things on earth to do is to create a
car and sell it to this country. When you went
in to talk to him, I mean, obviously you were
poised to work with him or for him at that
company and do your show on X and that blew up.
(40:10):
But when you were there, did you say to yourself,
he's not much different from a lot of other network executives.
I know you didn't have any trepidation. Well, let me
say this.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
I am in ongoing and pending litigation out of him,
so I can't really say a lot. But what I
can say is that I went into this with the
best of intentions, and at first I did not want
to do it. It took some cajoling and some convincing,
and finally I did. I did not work for him.
He was not my boss.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
He was not hiring me.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
What I had was a content deal with him, a
distribution deal where they would have a certain exclusive material
for an amount of time and then it would go everywhere.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So you know, why not do it?
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Because I wanted to. What I wanted to do was
what he and they said, to get on the platform
and to be a counter to all of the sort
of right wing conspiracy theorists that are out there. And
you know that, you know, lasted all of half a day.
So it didn't work out. So I feel, you know,
it's awful that it didn't work out. It wasn't great
for me, wasn't what you hoped. It wasn't what I hoped,
(41:13):
But you know, I'd worked with difficult people, but usually
that's in within the confines of a business that does
not play out publicly like it did. He's a very
consequential person to the world, and he has a very
big and powerful platform that can affect lives, livelihood and
even people's safety, and one I believe must be and
(41:36):
should be careful and more responsible with that.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
What do you hope people will take from this book?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
The biggest thing is that I want people to understand
that we don't and shouldn't live in a theocracy, but
it's going that way. And if you go through difficult periods,
as you well know, if you trust the process, which
is really called faith. People always say trust the process, right,
which is really faith for me is that it's going
to be okay. And if it's not okay, then usually
(42:03):
we don't know about it, but usually things work out
for the best. And I think it's you have to
have the right mentality, and you have to have the
right faith, and you have to have people around you
who love.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
You as you well know as you are, yeah, and
love you for who you are.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Love you for who you are and so but I
want people to get to know my story. I tell
my story alec and America story through the lens of
religion and faith in this country. And I wrote this
book because of my love for the country and my
love for God, and I wanted people to have an
(42:37):
insight on how it shaped my life and my world.
And I fought against the evangelical teachings that sought to
marginalize me.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
I want you to read something. You always ask authors
to read a piece of their book.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Okay, this is an excerpt for my book, I Once
Was Lost, my search for God in America. These days,
a lot of people here and abroad associate the American
flag with the most bellicose, narrow minded ideology. Because the
ones waving that flag loudest and hardest are bellicose, narrow
minded ideologues. They wave the flag as a symbol of
(43:11):
the America. They envision a country that belongs to them
by divine right, not the United States we all share.
And to drive that point home, they carried the stars
and stripes alongside the stars and bars of the Confederacy,
a treasonous junta that literally tore the United States apart
in a bloody effort to preserve slavery as an economic engine.
(43:34):
The term Christian nationalism rings out with faux nobility, but
it's a wolf in sheep's clothing, white supremacy, cloaked and
evangelical religiosity.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
This section is some of the best writing in the book.
I must say now, the other thing I want to
say is for me, I want people to take that
idea how we can reframe all that discussion about what
it means to be a patriot and be an American Menon,
You're one of many people who pursued that in this book.
But what I got from this book was your It's
a call. It's a call to say to people, we
all need to take a break from this world, this loud, cacaphanous,
(44:10):
commercialized world, and take a moment to connect with something spiritual.
It doesn't have to be a religion, to just connect
to something where we can settle ourselves. How can you
calm yourself and make yourself the better you on a
day to day basis? I mean, I get this from
this book.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Look, do you realize that you answered that question earlier
when you said that, no matter how someone treats you
or who they are, when you meet someone, you try
to approach them as if they're going through something going through.
What are they going through And so as I write
and here, I believe that what's important to convey is
that we keep trying to Most people keep trying to
(44:47):
find look at, you know, create God in their own image,
when we should be looking for God's image and other people.
And as long as you do that, I think that's
the answer. That's how you settle yourself. And you're talking
about this about patriotism. I say in this book that
as a black man, I have a complicated relationship with
(45:09):
a flag, and as a gay man, I have a
complicated relationship with a Bible. But I was able to
overcome that by using critical thinking and trying to find
love in my fellow man rather than judging people and
trying to create God in my own image.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
You think you have your doubts about everybody comes out
of It's like having a baby. You write a book.
When it's done, you're like, oh, I'm never doing that.
But the thing is that you write these books because
I have a theory which is that these are bricks.
These are bricks, and this is one of your bricks
that you're building a library, a world library. These are bricks.
I have a theory where when the aliens come and
take over and destroy this world. They're going to erase
(45:47):
every tape in every CD and every DVD that's just scarbage.
And they're going to pick up a book and they go, now,
what's this, And they're going to want to go this
more thoughtful, this is more you, more of your heart
is in this. I mean your work in television is exemplary.
I mean I don't want you to give up writing books.
Thank you, Alec. I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
It's like we have all of these photographs in our
cell phones, and then where do they go when we're
not here? When I go to your house, right, your
family's there, you're there, but I'm looking at the pictures
on the wall and I go around and look and
where's this from? Where's this moment from? But no one
goes into your phone and does that. And that's the
same thing that you're saying about the books and erasing
things that are digital, because throughout.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
The moment, Yeah, thank you, thank you, My thanks to
Don Lemon. Here's the Thing is recorded at CDM Studios
in New York City. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo,
Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial.
Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin.
(46:46):
Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from iHeart Radio. The last few years have seen
drastic changes in the rapidly evolving landscape of cable and
streaming television. You know the times have changed when even
the news is making news. At CNN, there were reports
(00:22):
of chaos and uncertainty, the sudden resignation of President Jeff Zucker,
followed by the installation of his successor, Chris Licked, and
drastic changes to their lineup. One of the biggest changes
moving my guest Today. CNN Tonight anchored Don Lemon to
Mornings after a decade in prime time. Shortly after, Lemon
(00:45):
made some controversial comments on air and was unceremoniously fired
from the network seventeen years into his tenure. Now, he
has released a book, I Once Was Lost My Search
for God in America, a day deeply personal journey of
his faith through difficult times that also takes a hard
look at politics and religion in America today. The Emmy
(01:09):
winning journalist launched a new series earlier this year, The
Don Lemon Show, on streaming podcast platforms and on YouTube.
I wanted to know how he made the decision of
where to launch his new show.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
YouTube is the number one network in the world. It
has surpassed Netflix. It's because everyone has that computer in
their pocket, and that is the new television. It's the
same thing you watch it, but it's just a different
form of distribution. So if I can go there, create
content and pretty much do exactly what I want to do,
why not?
Speaker 1 (01:43):
And that's why I chose YouTube.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Also, Alec, I have some contractual obligations. As you know,
you're in the business, you have non competes and all
of that. So I had to find a place where
I could go and do what I do and create
my cable non network that doesn't compete with my contract
at the old place.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Now I want to touch on that, I'm going to
We've got two things here, obviously, career and faith. The
book is called I Once Was Lost, and I went
to your book signing event where you were interviewed by Zucker,
who was very funny. By the way, I was surprised.
He's very good. So you go to YouTube overcly there's
a non compete aspect in there, but to describe your
(02:22):
career in television and when that ended, what ended? You
started at CNN. What year two thousand and six and
you started doing what I started.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
As let's see, Oh wow, it's been so long ago.
Two thousand and six. I was the afternoon anchor on
CNN Newsroom from one to four in the afternoon, And
you did that for how long? I did that for
about eight years or so?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Eight years?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, yeah, thirteen to fourteen. I moved on.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I moved to New York.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I was in Atlanta, and you move on to do
what show? I moved on to do. I did weekend
evenings for a while to sort of create, you know,
get my own voice, develop my own voice. And then
Jeff Souker took over and said, hey, you're pretty talented.
Who was in charge of before Zucker Jim Walton was
ahead of the network here, and Zuker took over, and
he wanted you want in the evening? He put you
on in the evening. Yes, I went to Zucker because
(03:10):
I did. I hated Atlanta and I'm a New Yorker
even though I grew up in Louisiana, I'm a New
Yorker by heart. And I said, hey, listen, it's been
great working here. I'm out of here, I said, I
can't live in Atlanta anymore. So thanks, you know, I'm
glad you just took over the network. Blah blah blah
blah he said, he said, yeah, he said, you don't
have to You're moving to New York.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
And that was it. And you did the evening on
the weekends, and then you did your evening show starting
when how long was he so weekends?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I did the evenings on the weekends for a while.
I think I did the evenings for you know, five years.
Look the afternoon, I'm sort of, you know, sort of
mixing that in the evening because I started the evening
in Atlanta and then I continue the evening in New York.
And Jeff would sort of mentor me, you know, because
he's he watched twenty four hours a day, so breaking
news tell you. He would say, breaking news, I need
(03:56):
you to stay on for another hour. We're going to
blow out the medical ship and need you to stay
on and do this, repeat the breaking news.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Or he didn't coach about style, No, no, not at all,
because he liked my style.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
He liked me being me.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
He's he would if anything, he would say, lean into it,
so he would say, you know, recap, tell the audience
you know it's breaking news, what it is. He wouldn't
tell me what to say. He would say a good
question might be something like this, and I wouldn't ask it,
you know, exactly as he would say if I wanted
to do it. But he wouldn't get upset if I
didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
So you could do audibles like quarterbacks.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yes, I could. And then he started. I had me
filling in on every single show. I'd fill in the afternoon,
I'd fill in the morning, I would do my evening show,
and he would send me on big stories and he
was he really developed me.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And you started doing your show, the big show, the
evening show.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Win I started doing my show. Aaron Burnett went out
on maternity leave and Jeff said, I want you to
take over for her from maternity leave. So her entire
couple months she was off, I filled in seven o'clock show.
It was me and I did my weekend show. So
I was working seven days a week and I didn't
mind it.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I loved it. Actually, you're doing the mornings, and you're
doing and morning shows, which have become so bizarre to me,
I know, I said to people, and I love all
these people. I mean, I love Katie Cork. But the
last time I watched the Today Show was when Katie
Cork was on with lour and they did a I
guess maybe it was for Halloween. They all dressed up
and clothing and they sang diamonds are a Girl's best
(05:21):
friend as she's walking down a staircase, a glittering staircase
or whatever, and I thought, I'm done. I don't know,
I want the news, maybe tell some jokes or whatever.
But they turned it into an entertainment show. But mornings
it's obviously a different ball game. Even weekends, maybe you're
a different ballgame. So what adjustments do you have to
make in your style to be on in the evening?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Oh well, I'm an evening guy. The only reason I
did the mornings is because and you told me, you know,
when I did the she said, no one wants to
see you in the morning, And you were right. I'm
not a morning person. I'm not very good in the morning.
I'm not good on coffee. Caffeine makes me jittery. I
don't know what I'm saying or doing. So I did
it because my company asked me to do it, and
I was being a team player, but it was not
a good fit for me. The adjustment is is that
(06:01):
you're constantly sleeping. You have to get up. I'm a
night oul. I don't him to go to bed until
two or three in the morning, and I'm up at
you know, maybe ten right before I would you know,
i'd have to wake up when I mean, when I
was doing the mornings, I have to wake up at
four in the morning, right, I know it'll be It
was really, really tough. So that's really the adjustment. I'm
a cool cat at night. I like it, and I
like that that late time slot. Working at night, I
(06:23):
do too, and I get my best idea yea, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I do movies.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And the guy said to me, we're in a black
box theater shooting this movie for all these scenes inside
this theater for a month in Florida. And he says, so,
no windows, know nothing, no light dependent at all. He goes,
we can shoot whenever we want. He goes, what time
you want to go to work? Love it? And I said, none,
I'm going to shooting noon to midnight. Yeah. We did.
We shot noon to midnight for four weeks and I
(06:47):
was in heaven. I was like, man, I'm just getting going.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, I like about seven or eight at night, like
my best work. I don't wake up that late, but
my best work is at night. So having that ten
o'clock slot was perfect for me. And then you know,
I was on until midnight every night, but that was
when I would get that energy.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And you like being solo. Oh, I love the co
anchors for a while. It's tough you didn't like that format. No,
I'm a team player, but not in that way. I
have my own flow and everybody can't keep up with me,
you know, and and doubles tennis, they're not the best partner. Yeah,
at your game, and you got to you gotta have
a good part of that. You have to have someone
who can keep up with you.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
And you know, I don't mean that in a you know,
I'm not diminishing anyone, but someone like a Kara Swisher
personal Yeah, like someone like a Kara Swisher or a
Joy Behar or someone they could keep up with me.
They get my sense of humor and they don't take
anything personally and they can give it or take it
as good as they give it, right, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I love that kind of but they didn't want to
demonize or criminalize your moderances.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
No, because they they under they they their pals and
they get me.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
It's not personal.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
It's just we're just we're just sitting having a conversation
and people say all kinds of things and conversations and
it's not personal.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
It's just your talking. And when you talk, you say
things and you.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Go, ah, I don't mean that, Okay, all right, right,
so I said some shit, that was great, whatever, and
you just move on. But you can't do that with everybody,
because you know, especially like younger folks, everything is like
a personal affront.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Well, you walk in on the set of a project,
and when you're around young people, I find that there's
a potential for certain difficulties. So I've never had any
problems with this myself. I never had any I've had
other problems obviously, but not that one. And you walk
onto the set, especially of a film, and you're there
and people they're tents. You don't realize how tense there.
(08:29):
They're scared younger people. You come on and there. I mean,
I've made whatever number of movies, I made one hundred movies,
ninety movies, whatever. I take pictures with people now, But
I got taught by somebody famous. You put your arm
out and they hook their elbow around your elbow, and
they go, why do you want to do that? A
few of them would say, and I say, I can't
put my hand behind your body, and you got it.
My hand can't be hidden behind your back in the
(08:50):
photogo all the games you got to play now? Which
are which? Was not concerned?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
No, but you're right about that. You said you've done
so many movies. I had been. I think I was
doing the afternoons from six about nine, and then I
started doing the weekend evenings, and so I'd been doing
the weekend evenings. I'd been solo, I should say, from
about two thousand and nine to twenty twenty three or
twenty twenty two, and so I was just used to
my own flow and people, you know, were used to
(09:15):
me just being me, and so I had been there
for quite some time solo anchor. And you know, people
come in and they're like they you know, they don't
get it.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
You know, now when you do a show like that
for people who don't know, because I find this behind
the scenes very interesting. You come in there you come in.
The show was on the air at ten. The big
show was on a ten. He did the pass too
with Chris, and then everybody thought that was very entertaining
the two of you.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's the biggest compliment that people say about that and
about my show. They say that was the last appointment
television for the network. Was that handoff and then going
on the show.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah. But the thing that people don't understand is you
get there what time?
Speaker 2 (09:53):
It would depend. If I had a pre tape, I
would go in earlier. But at the end I moved
across the street from the office, so it would take
me literally a minute, minute and a half to be
on the set because I lived and it was in
huts and yards. So I would go to work probably
about eight eight thirty.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
So You're out there at three o'clock writing.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
No, I'm doing that from home, got it because basically
my office is not much further from the set than
my home was. But before that, I would probably get
to work about six, right And the reason I did
that part of it was because of Jeff. Jeff said,
why are you working on the show so early?
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Your show?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Why are you guys in the morning meeting the morning
meetings at nine in the morning. Your show is twelve
hours away, a half a day away. Everything's going to
change exactly, So what are you doing? And I found
that when I would study for all of this stuff
and just study, study, study, and over prepare, and then
by the time the show came about at ten o'clock,
it would be a whole different show.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
And I'd say, why the hell didn't know? Would I
do this? You got to be more plod set, to
learn to be nimble. Now you're there doing a show
like that. How much do director I'm talk about technical
directors with cameras in a studio? Are the directors, segment producers, writers?
Who's got your ear in terms of content while you're
doing the show? So it's my executive producer? And how
many of those did you have when you were on
(11:07):
the big show?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I had one executive producer who is and then Maria Spanella,
and then I had my own personal producer, and then
there were segment producers. And so if there was a
segment that someone had prepared and they needed to be
in the control room, usually they stood there anyways, and
so the segment producer would get in my ear. But
usually it was the executive producer, but sometimes they would say,
you know, I would say it was nineteen times and
(11:28):
they'd go ninety ninety and I'm going because sometimes you
don't realize what you say right. You'll just read something
wrong or you just say something wrong, and so they
would correct me. But it was mostly the director and
the executive producer, and mostly the director who would say, okay,
thirty seconds out, ten seconds out camera two, so start
on camera two and I'm going to turn you to three.
Stand by, you know, the whole thing, three two and
(11:50):
go camera one, turn and then you do that that
sort of thing, right, And then you know, they would
say yeah, and you'd say you know, and it's fourteen
people and they'd say graphic and I'd go, take to
look at your screen, that it's up on the screen
right now, blah blah blah blah blah, and then you
talk about blah. And then they'd say on cam and
then I'd look back up and go, okay.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Then just someone's directing your performance. Yeah, directing.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
They just just to know where I'm going.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Technically, right, but they're directing your your tone or no.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
If I was off on something, someone would say she
says something she'd say like, all right, watch it up,
wastch your tone? Yeah, or yeah, you're you're dragging a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Are you tired?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Whatever you want us to bring? You want us to
bring your coffee, diet coke or something, yeah, Or I'm
gonna send makeup in. You're shiny, but that sort of thing.
That's it small small.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Now I'm assuming that when Licked comes in, this is
just zas Love wants things his way. This is his
magiem it's now it's going to be my CNN. So
Zucker's gone and he brings Licked in and when Zucker's
gonna gone? How much advanced notice did you have the
Zuker was leaving? Oh that I mean that was in
the news, right, so not much. Did you know when
he was going to be gone and someone else was
(12:53):
coming in who was going to run the company? You
didn't know.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
No, no one, no one, No one gave you what
any dance. No, it was in the it was in
the morning meeting. When it happened. I was in La,
and I forget what I was doing. It made have
an award season or something.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
I forget.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
I was in La doing a project for the network,
and I took the Red Eye and I got home
and went to sleep, and I woke up to a
lot of text messages and I was like, wait, what
is this. It always happens that way. That happened that
way when when Chris was let go, Chris linked and
my executive Priss said, don Jeff just resigned in the
(13:27):
morning meeting, and I was like, wait what And then
he called me and he said I didn't have a
chance to tell you whatever, blah blah blah. And you know,
he called everybody afterwards, but he did. I don't think
he really had any notice himself, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Well, I kind of equate him. This is just my opinion,
by the way, which is meaningless, but I kind of
equate him with Ronnie Meyer when they let Ronnie Meyer
go for similar reasons his personal life, and you want
to sit there and you want to go, well, I'm
running a company now and I'd like this guy to go,
and that's my excuse to let him go. And I
really was going to bring in another guy because I
want my I want to run my CNN, but he's gone,
(14:00):
like Universal, I think Ronnie Meyer hit the point where
he was making like forty million dollars a year, and.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
They were like, no, yeah, we need you to go. Look,
I'll let you say that. But you're a smart guy.
So but here, you know, Jeff is the last of
a TV executive, the celebrity TV executive Mavericks. Right, everyone
is so risk averse now they're afraid, you know, they're
with the stockholders wanting all that. He really protected us
(14:24):
from the overlords, right from the corporate you know overlords.
He really did his guts, his guts and he's like,
you know, this is journalism. I understand what you do
because he did what they did, right. He ran NBC
and he understood it. But he's really a journalist at
heart because he started at the Today Show and he
started in the news person there. He had a good
(14:45):
run there, and then he went to run the news
division at NBC, and then he entertainment. Then he ran
the entire network. So he really and we didn't realize it,
you know, until he was gone.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
When Licked comes, like most executives, I assume when you're
the top tier talent on the show that they come with.
Is it like dinners and whining and dining and getting
to know each other and everything's well and you don't
really know where it's going to go, and then it
goes the wrong way. Yeah, there's a little of that. Yeah,
there's a little of that. It's polite, it's polite, yeah
in the beginning. Yeah, and then things changed, right. Well,
(15:18):
I mean I just find that odd because I just
feel like I won't name names, but I've known a
couple of people who are execs at film studios, especially TV,
where the that conveyor belt is moving and they can't
press pause. They have a plan which seems to be
everybody's plan.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Now.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Years ago it was a plan. Now it's everybody's plan,
which is, if I can't raise revenue, I got to
cut costs. So it's just a lot of firing, a
lot of budget cutting.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
But don't you think to a certain extent that when
your job is protected and mentioned in the First Amendment,
that there should be some exemption from that whole thing.
Like I don't think the news division should be solely
or wholly in large part driven by revenue and numbers,
numbers and ratings. It shouldn't because you're supposed to give information,
(16:01):
you're supposed to hold people who are in power hold
into account.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
But you told me that when we were at the
book party. I raised my hand, I asked the question.
I said, the networks and traditional media, mainstream media, have
they lost young people? And you said, they haven't lost,
but they're losing. And then you went on to talk
about the people who are considered through some research who
quoted to being about being the most informed people get
their news from where.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
They get their news digitally? Right, Yeah, and listen, the
older people get their news from you know, they watch,
they sit they they watch cable news all day, they
watch six thirty or they you know, they're watching the
morning shows or they're doing that. Younger people are getting
their news on TikTok or whatever. But the most informed
people are they'll go on digitally. They'll watch something on YouTube,
They'll watch whatever, even if they go to you know,
(16:46):
Twitter or TikTok or whatever. But then they'll do their
research and they are media literate and more media savvy.
I find the people who sit in front of the
television all day have an unconscious or built in bias
because you can tell from whatever network they're watching. But
by the time they get to the arguments around the table,
the panels they don't know what they actually came there for,
(17:09):
what the point of the whole segment was.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
That's what they conveyed to me. Well, the shows which
are moderated shows, which are these s mash pits, and
everybody's going at it. I think more and more people
that realize now that it's not worth their time. I
always say to people, what do I watch? I said,
I watch Wolf Blitzer straight. I call them straight no chaser, right, right, right,
it's just like happening now. Just tell me what the
stop stories are and then I want to go have
dinner with my wife. You know, give me ten fifteen
(17:32):
minutes on my couch. I watched in every night. Every night, Yeah,
watch Blitzer. I watch MSNBC only when I come home.
I watched Blitzer. I go to dinner, I come back
and I watch Lawrence O'donaldy. Yeah, every night.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I like Lawrence, I like Rachel I like But I
think it's different when you're in primetime, as you know,
it's just like when you do you know, in primetime
you just sitcoms or whatever. It's different than something that's
on during the day, right, And I think it's the
same thing with cable news. Now, I don't believe that.
For networks, that's a different thing. You got six thirty
and it's straight, no chaser, good evening and we're gonna
start in Afghanistan and whatever it is. And then but
(18:03):
at night, if you're watching cable, it's more of a
personal experience and it's a longer sort of flow. And
people they wanted to be appointment television, and they wanted
to be someone familiar with, someone they trust, someone who
can actually maybe tell them a little bit how they feel.
People would say, I wasn't sure about it. Dom then
I watched you and I said, you know what, that
guy's right, and I think that's okay. I don't agree
(18:24):
with everything, hardly anything that Sean Hannity says, but he's
perfect for a primetime cable show, right, he's and he's
a star.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
I don't little O'Reilly. We had a great delivery, and
he was a real broadcaster. I didn't agree with the
word he said either.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
I've always said that about Bill O'Reilly. He's a great performer.
And I would watch him and I would take notes
and go that guy is good and the same thing,
and people are gonna, you know, gonna go, Oh my gosh,
I can't believe he said that. Same thing with Megan Kelly,
I don't agree with anything she says. She's turned out
to me the biggest troll and she flipped up. Oh
my gosh, it's embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I went to a book party of first with my wife,
but when she.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Was the same we were at that same party. Yeah,
on the rooftop of a hotel somewhere eeah. But she
at that time, I think she was on at eight
or nine o'clock or whatever at night.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
She was perfect for that hour.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
She's a great performer. She comes on and she's energy whatever,
and you know, the morning Speaking of people being out
of position, the morning show is not her position, I believe,
just like it wasn't. I was in in position as well.
And that's the thing about a good media or news executive.
They know what positions people should be playing, so you
need that sort of a personality. Same thing with Chris.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Chris is a star.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
He's great for cable news at night. Chris Cuomo, he's
great for cable news at night. I thought I was
great for cable news at night, you know, and people
wanted to tune in. They wanted to tune into us.
Rachel Maddow perfect cable news host.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
But I think that people when I watch news, having
grown up and having had news having a very sacred
place in my life. It was sacred. The news was
very important to me. And now when I see the news,
it's just weird. There's a chemistry. You have to have
a chemistry with that person, you know, like I used
to listen to He's a good friend of mine. I
love Kurt Anderson. And when Kurt had that show Studio
(20:02):
three sixty on NPO, I loved that show. That was
my favorite podcast, along with This American Life for Kurt Anderson.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And you don't feel you have that connection to any
of the news folks with you.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I love watching you on TV. I'm not just saying
that I thought you were great. I mean were you
had the right chemistry. I mean beyond you being a
handsome guy and being stylish and being this and that.
Thank you, but you had a great delivery. It was
really it was easy to watch you where there's people
that I watch and I go.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Well, maybe a little less of you, But it's the
same thing with knowing who's a good reporter and who's
a good anchor. Very few people can do both, and
people don't realize it. They don't understand that like anchoring
a show, it's another world. It's not easy and you
have to hold someone's attention. But I think now in
this day and age, people think that, Okay, they're a
good reporter, so therefore they're a good anchor, and I
disagree with that. You can have someone who can anchor
(20:47):
a show who is not necessarily the best journalists in
the world, but they're interesting. But when there are big
breaking news stories, then you throw to the person who's
the good report.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
The YouTube thing is on what time? Now, you're on
the air? One I'm on the air.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Well, it lives forever on YouTube. But I do a
five o'clock show every day, which was not how I
envisioned doing it. I do a five o'clock live show
every day where I just talk to the subscribers and
talk to them about things that's happening and what they
should know before they know go home or have dinner.
But then I just started one at ten am, which
is sort of a hot topic show where I'm trying
to get away from the politics, you know, and the
(21:23):
hard news and do things that are a little lighter.
But everything in the zeitgeist now is politics. You know,
they're eating the dogs or eating the cats. That goes over.
You know, it also bills over.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Author and anchor Don Lemon. If you enjoy conversations with
famous broadcasters, check out my episode with the legendary Dan Rather.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
When the first faint edge is what we came to
know is Watergate, you can do e merge. I was
skeptical that it would reach the Oval Office itself. You
never met anybody who had more respect for the office
or the presidency in the United States than I do.
It was very difficult for me to accept that the
president himself would be involved in any way. However, as
(22:06):
time went along, facts begin to first whisper, then they
begin to speak in full voice, and then the facts
begin to shout. It isn't just lower level campaign operatuities,
It isn't just lower level members of the administration that
this probably goes into the Oval Office itself.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
To hear more of my conversation with Dan Rather, go
to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Don
Lemon tells us how a tragic event led to him
rethinking his relationship with God and with his faith. I'm
(22:51):
Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. Don
Lemon's new book, I Once Was Lost My Search for
God in America details his very personal examination of his faith.
But this is not Lemon's first foray in the publishing world.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
I've written three books. This is a fire debut at
number one New York Times during the George Floyd thing
when that all happened in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
And the first thing I said to you when I
came backstage to just give you a quick carg at
the book party was you should write another book.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
And I'm like, God, oh know, man, it's tough, Alec,
It's so tough, and you don't know, you know it was.
It was easier in the sense. What was easier was
the selling of the book, when I had that big
engine behind me of CNN, where I could mention at
any moment, you know, it's in my book, and by
the way, you can go buy it and blah blah
blah blah blah. Or in the commercial break, I would
say throw my book up, and as we go to
commercial and say, by the way, my book is on
(23:43):
sale and you can get it at Barnes and Noble
or any local book store. They were fine, that would
help them, and so I was able to do that
with that book. I can't do with this book. I
have to sell this book, which is good for you know.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
I don't mind.
Speaker 2 (23:53):
I can't do it on YouTube. Ye of course I
do it on YouTube. I think some people are getting
sick of it. But writing it is hard. It's like
you're putting your heart out there. It's like you're wearing
your heart outside of your body, not in the way
that you have kids. But you don't know how people
are going to receive it, if they're going to trample on,
if they're going to trash you, if it's going to sell.
It's just the whole thing.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
And you know it's more personal than anything you might
do because it's you and you don't I make a movie.
Somebody else is directing the movie. Yeah, what I mean? Now,
you come from a I don't want to say religious,
so that you use the word. You want to describe
the family you came from in terms of faith.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Well, I came from a family who was faithful. Let's
put it that way. They had faith. My mother was
not as churchy, as they say, as my aunt was.
She's got Alzheimer's now a holy roller. You know, she'd
never missed a sermon. She was on the usher board
and all of that stuff. My mom was in the choir,
but she wasn't quite as religious as her the rest
(24:48):
of her family, but my grandmother was as well. You know,
they were members and you pay their dues. I'm sure
my mom still pays dues for the church. She just
doesn't go as often as as you know, one would think.
But I went to I grew up Baptist. I would
go to church, and then I'd go to Sunday Bible
School in the Baptist Church, and then I'd go to
vacation Bible School in the summer in the Baptist Church.
(25:09):
And during the week during the school year, I went
to the Catholic school and we would do Catechism, and
then we'd have Mass on Friday every Friday, and then
if it was a special holiday, we'd have Mass then.
And then in the morning we would line up like
a military school, hand out front of the hands on
the shoulder, and we'd line up by height, and then
we'd have the announcement and we'd do the Star Spangled
(25:31):
banner and the pledge allegiance, and then we would pray,
and then we'd go to class in lines like a
military school. And then you would before you go to
recess or whatever you talked about in the book howbouch
you liked pray? I liked it because it was because
it gave you discipline and you had a regiment and
we're part of something. You were part of something, and
there was a stability there that you had. You know, Okay,
we got to go to the recess. We stand up,
(25:52):
we pray that we're going to be safe at recess,
and then we all line up and we go down
to the yard and we have the recess, and then
we come back. And then before we went to lunch,
we'd pray, you know, over our meal, and then we
come back and we pray whatever. So and then if
an adult enter the class, you'd say good afternoon, mister
ball went, and you'd stand up, and we did not
sit down until mister Baldwin would say you were told
(26:15):
to good afternoon class.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
You may be seated, you may be seated. It was
a different world, amazing, right, you know my faith. I'm
a Catholic and I'm still Catholic, and I go to
church periodically. I go into waves and I go to
hear that man speak. Yeah, I'm in Los Angeles and
Father Torchisen, who was the head guy there at Saint Monica's,
I go hear him speak. I go went to the
(26:36):
city and go to Blessed Sacrament on seventy first Street
off of Broadway, and watched this a couple of guys speak.
But my guys in East Tampton who came out for
the swing mass in the summertime. So I go down
in the summer and I get my community and I
wait for him as he came out of the recessional
before everybody else mobbed him, and I said to me,
he's alone. I get him a lot. I'd pull him
aside from the other people with a recession and I go,
(26:57):
I want to do the confession the reconcilly face to face.
And he literally he's like this kid from Rosedale Queens.
She goes, ah, you want to do that? He goes,
oh please, I go no, I want to do that.
I want to please. I can't stand that, because are
you sorry for what you did in the name of
the Father and the son, the onlysp you're absolved. Oh please,
don't make me do that. Like we were pals. That's
why we're not in that racket anymore. We're friends. And
(27:19):
I thought, oh God, I can't believe that much this
church has changed. Change. You want to do that? You
know you want to do that? Please? He said, get away.
I don't want to talk about that nonsense. And I
was like, Oh God, who's going to hear my confession
on him? See, my friend.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I still can remember my the priest's voices in my
We have Father Hines, I can remember his big deep
and then we had Father Elwood, and I can just remember.
Their voices are stuck in my head because I was
in Catholic Church so much.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
But I want to switch to this idea that obviously
with what I've been through in recent couple of years,
this very difficult situation I was dealing with. It was
painful on a level I can't even give words do.
I literally can't even describe to people how much I
suffered from that. And you where is the summoning of
your faith in your adult life? And in recent years
when there was tough times for you, did you get
(28:07):
into digging for help in that direction. Yes I did.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
But first of all, I whant to say, I'm happy
that that's over. And you know everyone was praying for you,
and we all got what was happening, so I can
thank you for standing tough.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
So, yes, I've always been a faithful person, but as
my mother is, I'm not a churchy person, but I'm
a believer and I've always prayed and hoped and had faith,
and I've had to summon it more often than not.
I don't wear it on my sleeve because I don't
believe in that. I don't believe in pushing my faith
my religion on anyone else, and it's a personal thing
(28:42):
for me. I had a crisis of faith in twenty
eighteen when my sister died suddenly in an accidental drowning,
and that was I started thinking about this, how was she?
She was I think fifty nine at the time, and
I started to question God, like, why would God do that?
You know, it's supposed to be a benevolent God, and
I know there are bad things that happened all the time,
and you realize that intellectually until something happens to you,
(29:04):
right and you go, why did this happen to me?
And so I asked why?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Why? Why?
Speaker 2 (29:08):
And I dug deep and then I said why not?
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And I tried to figure out, you know, why this
was why? I read that somewhere, wasn't there quote in
the book about someone said well why?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
There was a quote in the book. But also I'd
heard that before. But also Anderson Cooper's mom, Gloria Bennerbilt,
said the same thing. She said, you know, people would
go why me, why me?
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Why me? Why not me?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
And then there was in my family there was a
similar sort of saying why not You so figure out
why it happened to you? Why this is happening to you,
And there's there's a reason, and maybe it's just to
make you stronger.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
I would much prefer not to go through such things.
And so I started questioning, why would God take my sister.
She has beautiful kids, she has beautiful grandkids. She was
so proud of her grandson, who was a great basketball player,
a great football player.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
She went every game like what why? Why?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Why son? That happened? And then after I started thinking
about this book, and then the George Floyd thing happened,
and I had pitched this George Floyd book and no
one wanted to buy it. Not George Floyd, but about racism,
and no one wanted to buy it. And then you know,
the thing happened and everyone's like, can.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
You write that book?
Speaker 2 (30:09):
And I'm like, okay. So I wrote it and it
was number one. But I started having this sort of
crisis of faith, and then I started writing the book,
and it was going to be sort of this, you know,
a coda to the last book, and where I was
just going to you know, move from racism and a
little bit more into religion. And I was going to
interview religious figures and people folks like you, and talk
about their faith. And then when I left CNN, it
(30:32):
became something else. I think it became a much better
and more personal book. So yes, it's a long story short,
a long story long. I have had, you know, points
in my life where I had to lean on my
religion and the Lord, and I don't really talk to
people about it.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, it's interesting when you work in this business. It
could be anywhere film and television or news of whatever medium,
cable or of streaming network you're around and you said
this word a lot on the book cynical. You're around
a lot of cynical people.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Yeah, and that's what journalists are generally, right, generally.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
You're right there, of course they are. And you sit
there and you think, what's it like to go minute
to minute through an experience with a bunch of cynical people, Like,
was there anybody at work who was faith based even
to some degree you could talk about it with? Was
it all just family and close friends and tim?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
It was all just family and family and close friends,
But mostly it was just me Alan, right, I didn't
I don't know. It's an inside job. And I remember,
you know, things would get so tough because doing what
I did was a very stressful. There's a high pressure job,
high wire job, every night live and you're like, oh,
something comes out of your mouth and there's always something
(31:41):
Why did you say this?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Why do you do this?
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Other people hate you here, other than mad at you here?
You got to give this response here and I'm like,
oh my god, Like why most people just go it's
nine to five job, they go home. It's like you
screwed up up, you know, you round it up, you know, yeah,
so and then you get over it and then when
that would happen to my sister and all the other
things that would happen, I would count. I would say,
you know, God got my steps, one, two, three, and
(32:04):
I would just count my step. I would take step
by step, by step by step, and I would count
my steps to the studio sometimes, especially when my sister died,
because you never knew when it was going to hit you,
and so I would have to like think about things
that go, you know, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, steps. Okay, tonight,
I'm going to talk about you know, Trump and you know,
very fine people on both sides, both sides, and I
(32:24):
would just have to keep and I would say, Lord,
when I get there, help me see both sides, or
help me whatever. And then I would just I would
just pay it and say, okay, you know, get the
IFB on it. And then I'd say, okay, God, here
we go. Just don't let it happen. Don't let me
get sad during the middle of a segment of start
crying or whatever, and so let me be focused or whatever.
And then you know, the music would come up and
(32:45):
I would just I would say, and when they would
say go, that's when I would snap out.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Of it right with this New Mexico event. I sat
there saying to myself, what do you want me to do?
There must be something you want me to do, you
want me to change, you want me to do this
or that. I prayed harder for them to dismiss the
case prior on the gun charge, and they denied us.
So when I go to trial and I didn't get
my way before, and I begged God, I begged, I'll
(33:12):
never forget. I watched the crown and the Queen of
England is on her knees praying next to her bed,
and I go, if the Queen of England can get
on her knees and pray, why can't I? And I
got on my knees, and sometimes I'm crying, and I go, please,
what do you want me to learn from this and
do from this? I said, please make this case be
dismissed on this charge. And later on it played out
(33:32):
the way it played. I go, if you take your
hands off the steering wheel and stop white knuckling the
steering wheel and trying to control and manage everything, maybe
something wonderful with results.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Yes, that was the hand of God. Yeah, Sometimes you
just have to say you know, as you said, take
your hands off the wheel and just pray that you're
going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
What do you want me to do? I'm okay with
whatever you will is show me. So did you let me?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I'm going to be a journalist.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Did it change you? That situation changed me a lot
in terms of my feelings about having my children and
getting be married and having so many kids, which is
something that I you know, I kind of knew what
I was doing, and people don't think you do. Then
they go, you wake up one morning and somebody goes, oh,
h peede on a stick, and oh guess what.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
You know?
Speaker 1 (34:14):
It's like, it's not all silly, and COVID happened, the
strike happened, and overlapping with the strike was also my
problem in New Mexico. What it made me do is
people would say, my god, now you can get back
to your old life, and I go, I don't want
to get back in my own lives.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
That's what I'm asking you.
Speaker 1 (34:28):
This is my life now? Are you kids?
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Are you more compassionate?
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yes? If compassion means everybody I meet, I have to
say to myself, they're going through somebody. Now I want
to switch the topic or to you with fame and
bed carpets.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
But I understand how you feel, especially about because people
when they meet me, they say you're different than what
I read about, because people often let their enemies and
their detractors define them, and you know, similarly to you,
the right wing media hates me, so they write the
worst shit about me, And then people meet me who
are conservative and even Trump supporters, and they're like, you're
not at all like what I read about in the
(35:01):
New York Post, and you're like, no, I'm not that
person at all.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Is it funny how you can be somewhere in a
kind of benign setting. You're walking through a park and
with my kids at some store, and you see people
and you see the way within under a second, with
in a fraction of a second, you see them regard
you in a way with their eyes where you who
know they're maga Republicans and they're like, oh god, it's him. Yeah.
And I go walk into them and their kids playing,
and I go, what's this little one's name? And you
(35:25):
try to charm them and they're totally freaked out. They're like,
my god, I can't normalize you, like I can't handle
that right now. You're an asshole and you have to
remain an asshole that. I know that very well. Journalist
and anchor Don Lemon, If you're enjoying this conversation, tell
a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing
on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
(35:50):
When we come back, Don Lemon shares his thoughts on
the cancel deal with Elon Musk and the X platform.
Following just one broadcast, I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening
to here is the Thing. Don Lemon's recent wedding to
(36:12):
his partner of eight years, Tim Malone, was heavily covered
in the press. The pair are often photographed on the
red carpet and at stylish events like New York Fashion Week.
I wanted to know how a serious newsman navigates his
relationship with fame.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
That is not why I got into the business, it says,
you know, right, And I didn't get into this business thing.
I was going to make a lot of money, but
you became. But I became famous, And you know what,
I'm enjoying my life. I'm happy. And if that fame,
if that comes with it. If I get a better
table at a restaurant, then so be it.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
But does that enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, I'm enjoying it. And there are so many people
who came before me who didn't get to do that.
And just because I'm a journalist, it doesn't mean that
I'm not a person. It doesn't mean that I don't
enjoy getting out and meeting people. Doesn't mean that I
don't enjoy going on red carpets and going to you know,
beautiful events. Why wouldn't I. I'm a human being. I
think it's okay. Just because you're a journalist, it doesn't
(37:10):
mean that you're not, you know, a full person, a
multi dimensional person.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
And I am.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And so, you know what, I'm just enjoying my life.
I'm grateful that i'm here. I don't know how many
days are ahead of me, and while i'm here, I'm
going to get the best out of it.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
The only reason you're on those red carpets is you're
good looking. That's you. I think it's about you. Maybe
it's I don't know. I think it's both.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yes, But I also think I'm there because I am
enjoying it. If I wasn't enjoying it, I wouldn't be there.
I enjoyed my job. I enjoyed what I you know,
my profession and what I did, and I think that
that shines through and so I think that that's what
made me, you know, a star, so to speak, right
in this business.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Even those your warmth, No would I that's important. There's
a magic mist that has to exude from you. It
has to be admitted by you on camera, whether it
comes through your eyes or anywhere you have to convey
to your audience. There's no place out. So I'd rather
be than here with you right rightly. When you do
see that, you go, Hi, I'm Don Lemon, and tonight
I want to tell you Oldbeppa.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
They're with you, yes, And you know what, I couldn't wait.
I would tell them like I couldn't wait to get
here to tell you this story today.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
So let's go. It's like the journalists equivalent of someone
walking up to and going, would you like to dance?
Shall we dance? It's an engagement between you when your Yeah. Now,
two quick things. One is the election. And I believe
that everybody who talks and kind of piles on online
or anywhere about Trump is completely wasting their time. What
else are there to say about him? Do you believe
in polls.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
I believe poles are a snapshot in time. I believe
in polls less so now than I did before. We
all learned our lesson from twenty sixteen and then twenty
twenty as well. But I think this time is going
to be surprising. I think it's going to be surprising.
I think she has a real chance. We had no
chance with Biden or I admired, I my operation for him,
but he was old. But I think there's a hidden
(38:51):
vote for Trump with black men. I think even with
some women that you know, they still love him. And
I think with college students, I don't I know, and
I don't get it either.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I don't get it, but I don't get Also, is
it there's a person who came in who knew nothing
about government. He held no office, not even a mayoralty,
not a governor, or as an executive, not a legislator
in Congress or a state house. He knew nothing about government,
and he served in the White House for four years
and he still doesn't know anything.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So it doesn't know you know what the people are,
what they do. We're shocking to me, It shouldn't be shocking.
But the folks on his side say she's not qualified
and she has no experience, and I'm like, wait, do
you know who you're supporting?
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Am I Are you insane? She's a senator, vice president,
she's the attorney general. She's a bright woman. Yeah, she's
everything he isn't. Yeah, all right, Musk, I just want
to say with Musk, you know, Musk is like we
were joking before you got into the Musk to me
is like Howard Hughes meets Mickey Rooney. He's like this loopy,
nutty guy that's constantly slamming the door in his hand
(39:50):
and screwing himself up public relations wise. But he's also
an engineering genius or whatever, and he's made all this
money and sold cars, which are one of the most
difficult things on earth to do is to create a
car and sell it to this country. When you went
in to talk to him, I mean, obviously you were
poised to work with him or for him at that
company and do your show on X and that blew up.
(40:10):
But when you were there, did you say to yourself,
he's not much different from a lot of other network executives.
I know you didn't have any trepidation. Well, let me
say this.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
I am in ongoing and pending litigation out of him,
so I can't really say a lot. But what I
can say is that I went into this with the
best of intentions, and at first I did not want
to do it. It took some cajoling and some convincing,
and finally I did. I did not work for him.
He was not my boss.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
He was not hiring me.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
What I had was a content deal with him, a
distribution deal where they would have a certain exclusive material
for an amount of time and then it would go everywhere.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
So you know, why not do it?
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Because I wanted to. What I wanted to do was
what he and they said, to get on the platform
and to be a counter to all of the sort
of right wing conspiracy theorists that are out there. And
you know that, you know, lasted all of half a day.
So it didn't work out. So I feel, you know,
it's awful that it didn't work out. It wasn't great
for me, wasn't what you hoped. It wasn't what I hoped,
(41:13):
But you know, I'd worked with difficult people, but usually
that's in within the confines of a business that does
not play out publicly like it did. He's a very
consequential person to the world, and he has a very
big and powerful platform that can affect lives, livelihood and
even people's safety, and one I believe must be and
(41:36):
should be careful and more responsible with that.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
What do you hope people will take from this book?
Speaker 2 (41:42):
The biggest thing is that I want people to understand
that we don't and shouldn't live in a theocracy, but
it's going that way. And if you go through difficult periods,
as you well know, if you trust the process, which
is really called faith. People always say trust the process, right,
which is really faith for me is that it's going
to be okay. And if it's not okay, then usually
(42:03):
we don't know about it, but usually things work out
for the best. And I think it's you have to
have the right mentality, and you have to have the
right faith, and you have to have people around you
who love.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
You as you well know as you are, yeah, and
love you for who you are.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
Love you for who you are and so but I
want people to get to know my story. I tell
my story alec and America story through the lens of
religion and faith in this country. And I wrote this
book because of my love for the country and my
love for God, and I wanted people to have an
(42:37):
insight on how it shaped my life and my world.
And I fought against the evangelical teachings that sought to
marginalize me.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
I want you to read something. You always ask authors
to read a piece of their book.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Okay, this is an excerpt for my book, I Once
Was Lost, my search for God in America. These days,
a lot of people here and abroad associate the American
flag with the most bellicose, narrow minded ideology. Because the
ones waving that flag loudest and hardest are bellicose, narrow
minded ideologues. They wave the flag as a symbol of
(43:11):
the America. They envision a country that belongs to them
by divine right, not the United States we all share.
And to drive that point home, they carried the stars
and stripes alongside the stars and bars of the Confederacy,
a treasonous junta that literally tore the United States apart
in a bloody effort to preserve slavery as an economic engine.
(43:34):
The term Christian nationalism rings out with faux nobility, but
it's a wolf in sheep's clothing, white supremacy, cloaked and
evangelical religiosity.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
This section is some of the best writing in the book.
I must say now, the other thing I want to
say is for me, I want people to take that
idea how we can reframe all that discussion about what
it means to be a patriot and be an American Menon,
You're one of many people who pursued that in this book.
But what I got from this book was your It's
a call. It's a call to say to people, we
all need to take a break from this world, this loud, cacaphanous,
(44:10):
commercialized world, and take a moment to connect with something spiritual.
It doesn't have to be a religion, to just connect
to something where we can settle ourselves. How can you
calm yourself and make yourself the better you on a
day to day basis? I mean, I get this from
this book.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Look, do you realize that you answered that question earlier
when you said that, no matter how someone treats you
or who they are, when you meet someone, you try
to approach them as if they're going through something going through.
What are they going through And so as I write
and here, I believe that what's important to convey is
that we keep trying to Most people keep trying to
(44:47):
find look at, you know, create God in their own image,
when we should be looking for God's image and other people.
And as long as you do that, I think that's
the answer. That's how you settle yourself. And you're talking
about this about patriotism. I say in this book that
as a black man, I have a complicated relationship with
(45:09):
a flag, and as a gay man, I have a
complicated relationship with a Bible. But I was able to
overcome that by using critical thinking and trying to find
love in my fellow man rather than judging people and
trying to create God in my own image.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
You think you have your doubts about everybody comes out
of It's like having a baby. You write a book.
When it's done, you're like, oh, I'm never doing that.
But the thing is that you write these books because
I have a theory which is that these are bricks.
These are bricks, and this is one of your bricks
that you're building a library, a world library. These are bricks.
I have a theory where when the aliens come and
take over and destroy this world. They're going to erase
(45:47):
every tape in every CD and every DVD that's just scarbage.
And they're going to pick up a book and they go, now,
what's this, And they're going to want to go this
more thoughtful, this is more you, more of your heart
is in this. I mean your work in television is exemplary.
I mean I don't want you to give up writing books.
Thank you, Alec. I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
It's like we have all of these photographs in our
cell phones, and then where do they go when we're
not here? When I go to your house, right, your
family's there, you're there, but I'm looking at the pictures
on the wall and I go around and look and
where's this from? Where's this moment from? But no one
goes into your phone and does that. And that's the
same thing that you're saying about the books and erasing
things that are digital, because throughout.
Speaker 1 (46:23):
The moment, Yeah, thank you, thank you, My thanks to
Don Lemon. Here's the Thing is recorded at CDM Studios
in New York City. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo,
Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial.
Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin.
(46:46):
Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio
Host
Alec Baldwin
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