January 24, 2023 • 32 mins
Hatice Cengiz is a Turkish academic and researcher in Middle Eastern studies, and the fiancée of slain journalist Jamal Khashoggi. In 2017, Khashoggi fled Saudi Arabia for the United States, where he wrote columns often critical of the Saudi government for The Washington Post. He was murdered inside the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul by Saudi government officials in 2018. Four years later, Cengiz continues to fight for justice for her fiancée and hold accountable those who ordered and planned the killing. Alec speaks with Cengiz about how she and Jamal Khashoggi first met, the details of that tragic day, and the enduring legacy of her fiancée.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the
Thing from iHeart Radio. In January, I was at the
Sundance Film Festival and attended the premiere of The Dissident.
The Dissident was directed by Brian Fogel, winner of the
Best Documentary Oscar for his film Icarus. The Dissident recounts
(00:25):
the murder of Jamal Koshoji, a Saudi journalist who fled
his home country after crackdowns on descent in two thousand seventeen.
He lived in self exile in the United States, where
he wrote columns for The Washington Post that were often
critical of the Saudi government. The details of Koshoji's demise
(00:47):
are gruesome, to say the least. Turkish officials and the
CIA have concluded that Koshoji was killed and dismembered inside
the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Film follows the investigation into
his murder, going so far as to implicate the highest
ranks of the Saudi government, including Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salmon.
(01:12):
Prior to the Sundance screening, I was introduced to a
Turkish woman backstage. We spoke briefly before taking our seats
in the theater. I did not catch her name. Only
when the lights came up and Fogel called to the
stage because Shoe's fiancee, a human rights activist who is
prominent in the film, did I realize she was the
(01:34):
woman I had the very hasty chat with backstage. My
guest today is that woman Hatija jens After the screening,
Jenkis was descended upon by admirers, and thus the opportunity
to speak with her again did not arise until today.
With the opportunity to speak with Hatija once more as
(01:58):
she joined me from Turkey, I wanted to learn about
her history with and how they first crossed paths. I
met him in Istanbul in two thousand eighteen. I knew
him as an academic, as a writer, as a follow
in the Gulf studies, and he's a very known journalist
(02:20):
in the Middle East or around the world. I was
watching him when he gives interviews on the televisions. There
is a no more very famous writer or journalists from
Middle East. Jamal one of the most popular and well
known person as a foreign policies and defending democracy and
(02:42):
human rights and the other values that we are talking
about and he was a very very open mind and
the different from others. But when I start for him closely,
it was at the beginning of the arts being I
met him in the conference. It was may. I think
(03:04):
he talks about the Gulf countries, the situation, about the crisis,
and you know, human rights and there's a lot of
problems and issues that you cannot talk about the GCC
countries so very easily. So Jamal was out of South
Arabia at that time. He attended the conference from the States,
(03:28):
but I wasn't aware all of the information. Very closely,
you were not aware of his status with the saudiast
meaning when you met him in two thousand and eighteen,
he already was in self exile. He was villainized by
them in two thousand seventeen. So when you met him physically,
when you first, he was in the thick of it. Yes,
(03:48):
But I knew that he has moved to United States,
but I wasn't able to understand the whole these details.
I expected that he moved for a time for some period,
because I couldn't understand how someone like Jamal left his
country forever. You know, all this information I received afterwards
(04:11):
from Jamal when relations start between us. I made him
in the conference and as a listener. I did not
give any speech in that conference. And after the conference
break time, I said hello, I introduced myself and I said,
I am studied about Oman and I'm interested in golf
(04:33):
countries more than four years. And of course we were
talking in Arabic, and he interested in the sort of
these details that I know about the Gulf. It was
like electricity between two people. It wasn't a conversation just
between men and women. It was more than that. I
(04:55):
can say. It was a very warm conversation. I'm quite
surprised that man like Jamal was very humble to listen
to people like me, a very young researcher, and he
give me a chance to introduce myself and to talk
to him. And I thought, if you have some time,
(05:16):
can I do like a short interview or talk with
you more. And he didn't reply. He didn't response the questions,
so I said it's okay, I shouldn't ask more than this,
and I said I will be around and if you
like to talk to me, I will be really happy.
(05:39):
And then I left him. It was a break time
for coffee or something, and then I started following the
other sections and then talking with my friends and the
other young journalists and researchers, and he came and said, hello,
how are you. I want to talk to you if
you have time, and then we start talking about his experience,
(06:02):
the last moment that he had. I asked some questions
and he applied and he even allowed me to record this.
So it was the beginning of my relation with Jamal.
And we had a good conversation like half an hour
or forty minutes, and then he said, very nice to
meet you. He felt a very comfortable with me that
(06:26):
he wants to talk about more. But what I'm wondering though,
is knowing, as we do in the timeline that he
was already, you know, in a lot of trouble with
these people when he met you. Was he concerned when
you came into his life? Was he concerned about you?
And were you concerned about you? Did you think you
might be in danger? Actually I wasn't aware of all
(06:51):
the danger of his life in that level. Even Jamal
didn't knew that this people become like enemies to him,
try to put in jail or arrest him. He didn't
mention at all. You know if you have a relation
(07:13):
with someone like Jamal and that level, you cannot ask
any question very easily, do not hurt him. I was
very careful to understand demands, feelings and emotions tuition because
he was really really lonely that time. I was really
careful to not ask any question that I want to ask.
(07:35):
I just one time, remember ask him, do you think
that I have to know some sort of information or
kind of things that I have to know now before
the marriage because we were busy with buying home or
some sort of things for for house in that period.
(07:56):
I asked this question, and then he asked me why
you are asking this, and I said, because I do
not want to get in surprised after the marriage that
you didn't tell me something like the big issues in
your life, or if you have any points that you
hid me. I don't know. I just asked the question.
(08:18):
It seems that what you're saying is that neither one
of you was really fully aware. Even he wasn't fully
aware of the lengths these people were willing to go
to get him. Yes, he did not know anything kind
of dis thing, because I remember he once told me
his close friends, all of them in prisons right now.
(08:41):
He was very, very worrying about them, very sad about them.
He was crying every day about their stories. So when
you're in the Saudi consulate, when he goes in, and
you're there in Istanbul at that point in your life,
he had been forced to make the painful choice to
leave his wife and his family in Saudi. But he
(09:04):
was going to the consulate to get proof that he
was no longer married to his first wife in order
to be able to marry you. I mean he was
working for the Washington Post with the two of you
planning to stay in Turkey. What was your plan once
you were married? Where were you going to live? He
said to me, My relation with my country, with my
(09:26):
government is not that much bad that I have to
worry about. He said to me that. He said, Look,
I have worked to my country more than thirty five
years or forty years. I am a very well known journalist.
I am not criticizing Saudi. That's bad. I just advised them.
(09:46):
I couldn't do that in Saudi Arabia. Now I am
doing that in d C. He believed that there is
a good relation between him and Saudi because I am
not sody I am not living in Saudi Arabia. You
say that he didn't live in a general state of
fear of what the Saudis would do to him. I
(10:08):
guess it never crossed his mind that this was possible.
The first visiting, me and him, we went to Any
eight September before the second visiting, and he came out
like forty five minutes or something like that, and he
said to me, okay, it went very well. He was
(10:28):
very happy when he came out. He said, they gave
me coffee tea and asked about me my marriage, and
they encouraged me. They asked me some questions and we
have chat. He said to me, I am really happy
that I faced the very very nice picture of my
country that I was worrying about. He said to me that,
(10:52):
and he also sent some messages to his friends and
shared these his happiness. It's not just me and yet.
And he enters the building. He hands you to cell
phones and tells you if anything happens, you should contact
Airnagon himself. No, it wasn't true. Actually, he told me
I don't want to go to consulate. I don't want
(11:13):
to face this country and I am outside of Saudi
and maybe they will question me, they will get me
on pressure or some kind of these things. I don't
want to face it. But there is no way to
get married with you, and I want you like my wife.
He said to me to saw the consulate. They are
(11:34):
asking the phones out of the consulate, I mean out
of the offices inside the consulate, and they are keeping
them like in a box inside the concert. And I
don't trust in this situation, and I want you keep
them because lots of things in his phones, and you know,
messages that he don't want to share with these people.
(11:57):
And then he said, put this and he went in.
He didn't tell me call anyone or do some calls
with any kind of people or something like that. I
just said to him, don't worry. I'm here if something happens.
So when you win in in the first visit and
you go in to answer some questions and everything seems normal,
(12:19):
you know, everything seems like it's just functioning normally. They
they've got a job to do when you're going to
answer these questions. So when you go back the second time,
the faithful time, when you go then why didn't you
go into the building with him? Then why did he
want you to wait outside the rules of the consulate.
They did not allow to go inside with him. And
(12:39):
then I started waiting. It went like one hour, it
is okay, two hours, yes, you can say okay. But
after two hours, because it was a very simple conversation
the first time, and he said to me it was
a very nice conversation, and I thought it might be
like a more conversation questions. You know, the other people
(13:02):
talks a lot, so I don't know. After two hours,
I checked the time when the consulate close and it
was like three forty something like that, or maybe four,
And of course I was waiting a front of door.
Jamal did not came, and I was relaxed and and
(13:24):
I felt that not can happen. You know, he's in
there and hours go by. It's one thing to come
out to him and say, oh, he's not in the building.
He left, someone took him whatever. It's another thing for
them to tell you exactly what happened. When did you
find out exactly what happened to him? I called the
(13:45):
Consulate to explain myself. I am her Teag Turkey citizen.
I'm waiting out of door. Jamal did not come. Where
is Jamal. And then he said who you are and
then where are you right now? And then he came
out and checked on me and told me there is
(14:05):
no one inside. And I started worrying. It was a
very huge scared inside me. I made calls with people,
lots of people with a very worrying situation, and I
also called with my friends to come to stay with
me there because I felt there's something going on. And
(14:29):
so the situation at that time, I learned from guy
that came from Sudi consulate and then told me by
saying there is no one inside the consulate, there is
no Jamal. Jamal is not inside. He did not give
me more information and he went back and then I
(14:51):
started waiting. There so no Istanbul or Turkish police sat
you down and said they did not tell me. I
asked many times during the investigations, because when police question you,
they evegased me as well as a close person. So
I asked them and I also asked the head of
(15:13):
the court when they start investigation, and they said to me,
we are searching still, we are trying to understand. They
said to me, we still do some formation are not
clean or some kind of these responses that I received
(15:33):
from the people, and also this gave me a kind
of hope. You know, there wasn't any declaration or any
clear message that I received from the official one, so
I told, okay, let's see because you know, it is
a huge like a nightmare or tragedy you cannot believe,
(15:57):
and I did not able to understand what's going on.
I still very big shot and not the word that
I was leaving game. I am a not dead person
before Jamal Patija Jenis. If you appreciate conversations with international activists,
(16:19):
check out my episode with the director of the Crisis
and Conflict Division at Human Rights Watch, Ida Sawyer. They're
different kinds of chronic human rights abuses in different regions,
but I think in in countries where you have more
authoritarian governments, where you don't have freedom of expression, freedom
of the press, and there's crackdowns on political opposition leaders,
(16:41):
journalist activists, that's where we see some of the worst abuses,
and that can sometimes be related to abuses linked to
access to healthcare, education and those sorts of human rights
as well. To hear more of my conversation with Ida Sawyer,
go to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break,
(17:05):
Tiger shares her reaction to seeing the tragedy of Jamal
Kao's death brought to life in The Dissident. I'm Alec
Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Director Brian
(17:27):
Fogel's filmed The Dissident directly implicates Mohammed Ben Salmon's involvement
in the murder of Jamal ka Shoji. It is perhaps
one of the reasons the film struggled initially to find
a buyer. I wanted to know how he Tiger came
to meet Brian Focal. He reached me out at the
(17:48):
time that we have learned from Saldi that Jamal has
been killed, and it was a huge waves around toward
so it's whether big and huge shock for everyone, and
everyone also tried to reach me out to make an interview.
One of them was Brian. He phoned me and he
(18:12):
asked me to come to Istanbul to visit me and
he wants to make a film for tomorrow. But after
that phone call, Champagne he has called me as well
and then he came before Brian visited me in Istanbul
and then we met and we talked. He was a
(18:33):
very very touch with this story, and he cried and
I cried, and we talked and it was a very
unique time. And then Brian came and then he did
not mention lots of things about the detail. And then
I listened to Brian and I decided to with Brian
because I listened him very carefully, and he said, look,
(18:54):
this my plan, and I will do that during the year,
and I will start that time and I'll finished that time,
and I have a film about the staff in Russia,
the Acarus. And then I have watched also his film,
and I said, look, it is something that it's serious.
I have to make a decision between them. And also
(19:18):
they collaborated. Yeah, they worked together to produce the film.
Brian was professional for these details. So it went very well.
When you finally see the film, what was that like?
What was your reaction? My reaction was very interesting that
I cried a lot. I was in Italy. I watched
(19:39):
it before sentence because according to our agreement, that was
a condition that I have to see before release. So
I watched there. I didn't believe that all these things
happened again and again. It was the first time to
see myself, which the the real tragedy, and then you
(20:02):
are a part of this tragedy in reality, not in
your mind or in my mind, in my heart. Now
I'm seeing what happened to me to jama and I
started to realize how a huge things happened and happening
in my life, how I feel deal with this, how
(20:24):
I will start living like any normal person. And I
start to realize that my life has changed one or
more now at the time of the event, at the
time of his murder in the consulate, the film depicts
(20:45):
certain police detectives what have you, whether they're in the
city of Istanbul or their National police figures in Turkey itself.
Did you trust the Istanbul and the Turkish police authorities
with the work that they did. Did you feel you
that they were genuinely trying to solve the case? Yes,
they did. I think in this case they did a
(21:06):
great job because they were in a very big shock
like me. I remember the time that questioning me to
understand because no one knows about tomorrow. By the way,
in Turkey, the normal people in the country, they try
to understand why did this happen in Turkey? In Istanbul,
(21:27):
they try to understand what's going on. So his children
eventually at some point inform the Saudi government through whatever
channels that they don't want these people that were arrested.
They want them pardoned and they don't want them to
face the death penalty. What were your feelings about that?
Were you disappointed? I understand. I tried to understand more
(21:53):
and more. It wasn't easy. At the time that they
made a deficion. I decided to not make any comment
why because it is not my point that I fight
with his family. I mean Jamal's family. They are not
my enemies, and they decided to forgive the criminals, in
(22:15):
my opinion, not because they want. They forced the biggest
challenges in their life and they made this decision for
their life. I have to respect why because I am
not sorry, I am not living in Saudi Arabia, and
also they are Jamal's family. There is no point to
(22:39):
fight with these people. And if I meet them, I
am sure I will become a very close friend of them.
How many children does he have? Total? Four, two sons,
two daughters. Me and Jamal and Jama's son went to
cafe and launched together dinner together. I take them to
(22:59):
do best restaurant in the Bosphorus and v spent a very,
very wonderful time together before he's killed, had teacher Jenkis.
If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be
sure to follow Here's the thing on the I Heart
(23:20):
radio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When
we come back at tjer Jenkis shares who Jamal Kashi
really was. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's
(23:42):
the Thing. After the assassination of Jamal Kashoji, then President
Trump went against his own intelligence community, saying he believed
Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed ben Solomon was not involved in
the killing. Recently, the Crown Prince was grant immunity as
sitting head of government by the Biden administration, and her
(24:06):
teacher's lawsuit against him was then dismissed. To date, Jenkis
has appeared before the u N, the European Parliament, and
a tribunal at the Hague calling for justice for her fiancee.
I was curious if she felt these international organizations would
continue the fight for accountability. Actually, at the beginning they
(24:28):
gave me some sort of hope by words, but at
the moment, what I am doing or what I'm planning
to do is we are working on a progress that
trying to understand from jurisdiction, international jurisdiction that which country
that we can do something more Trump for that time
(24:50):
it was president and he has stayed with NBS directly
without any accusing and he in sure that he will
not do any kind of moment against him, and he
tried to defend him in a very interesting ways. So
(25:10):
after this position, what I understand from the politics, if
the United States did not sign that it will do
something and then the others follows them to the United
States has typically a leadership role among people in the
international community, and they've abandoned that role. Now in this case, yes,
(25:34):
they did follow the United States very closely and very directly.
And because of this, I start understand from the European
Parliament and the United Nations, which I gave more than
one time speech and I asked more questions and investigation,
they did not take any sort of serious action after
(25:57):
the report. Even the United Asian did not take any
step against the criminals. So what would I do. In Turkey,
they also have finished and closed the case and sent
to Saudi Arabia. And then you know also say it
gave the criminals the immunity. So the plan is now
(26:18):
that I have to carry on this mission and vision
that keep Jamal's nay alive. So you haven't given up,
that's what you're saying. You have not given up. I
need to get the truth. I need it because still
we don't know Jamal's body were. We still don't know
why and what happened to him, why they killed Jamal.
(26:41):
I thought The Dissident was a wonderful film and and
a highly disturbing one. When you watch the film, he
is the subject, and I was overcome really by how
charming he was, how funny he was. He had this little, ry,
little look on his face. He was an unusually bright
and clever man. But when you watch the film, you
(27:05):
kind of become very warm towards the case, and you
really really he wins you over in your mind when
you tell people who was Jamal to you? In general,
you cannot find easily a kind man. You can find
rich man, you can find handsome men, who can find
(27:26):
you know, famous man. For example, Jamal was a very
generous person. He was a kind and humble person. A
good listener, and he understands woman and how they think
about man's and talking very few words but meaning words
(27:50):
and try to understand from the behaves, not from the
words that I was looking for. And Jamal was a
man who understand from the eyes, from the feelings, from
the hearts, and from the behind of words and behind
(28:12):
your beauty and behind your feelings. He said, the most
important point in life is to understand someone who loves you.
And he said, you I ever met in my life,
any person like you that you loved me, very different
from any woman I met. So I understand him from inside,
(28:36):
not from outside. I met Jamal as a man in reality,
not as a journalist. You are talking about someone who
lost everything. He left his country, he left his family,
his children, his wife's, his famous city, and you know,
started over. And he he's not happy with that. He
made this decision because of the situation. But he far
(29:00):
himself very lonely and very weak at the same time.
But he cannot explain this part to people to understand him.
So the situation was very unique. I can say that
one time he asked me he was worrying about my
feature a little bit, and then he asked me many times,
(29:20):
are you happy with me? Or are you scared? I said,
it's okay, because I want to live with you whenever
I can or you can. I want to share with
my life with you whenever you are alive in this life.
He just touched my soul and also at the same time,
(29:40):
I thought his soul because I did not got married
with someone famous. He wasn't famous with me. He wasn't
that rich man with me. He was a very, very
honest and open and humble and smiling person. With someone
like me. It was like the big present from God
that you cannot expect that much peak because when he came,
(30:05):
he covered the whole things that I lost in my life. Obviously,
I don't want to use a cliche like the love
story between the two of you, but as two people
who meet each other under these circumstances, and you only
knew him very briefly, you only knew him for a
matter of months before the horrible event occurred. The other
(30:26):
tragedy of this story is how you felt about each
other and how you came together. That's a huge part
of the story for me, as for a man who
had to abandon his family, didn't want to do that
and found someone like you. You're obviously a incredibly bright, educated,
(30:47):
engaged person, and the two of you come together and
then this terrible thing happens. That's among the saddest parts
of the story of all. Just the last word that
I want to say. If you saw want asked me,
what did you understand from your story or what did
you face through this story that you face it in
(31:10):
your life. I have achieved the two things, the personal
things and general things. The personal things from Jamal, The
first one that any person in the life the need
is a safety. Jamal left his country because of safety,
and without love, no one can leave. Jamal was needed
(31:33):
the real love when he left his country. The safety,
love and faith. You have to have a faith or
goal in this life. It is from the personal side
that we have to keep all these the treatings in
our life, our safety, our loves, and our goals. I
(31:55):
am grateful to you for doing this. I really really am.
Thank you. M H my thanks to human rights activist
at t J Jenkis. This episode was recorded at c
DM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo,
Zach McNeice and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial.
(32:19):
Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin.
Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Hear's the
Thing from iHeart Radio. In January, I was at the
Sundance Film Festival and attended the premiere of The Dissident.
The Dissident was directed by Brian Fogel, winner of the
Best Documentary Oscar for his film Icarus. The Dissident recounts
(00:25):
the murder of Jamal Koshoji, a Saudi journalist who fled
his home country after crackdowns on descent in two thousand seventeen.
He lived in self exile in the United States, where
he wrote columns for The Washington Post that were often
critical of the Saudi government. The details of Koshoji's demise
(00:47):
are gruesome, to say the least. Turkish officials and the
CIA have concluded that Koshoji was killed and dismembered inside
the Saudi consulate in Istanbul. Film follows the investigation into
his murder, going so far as to implicate the highest
ranks of the Saudi government, including Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salmon.
(01:12):
Prior to the Sundance screening, I was introduced to a
Turkish woman backstage. We spoke briefly before taking our seats
in the theater. I did not catch her name. Only
when the lights came up and Fogel called to the
stage because Shoe's fiancee, a human rights activist who is
prominent in the film, did I realize she was the
(01:34):
woman I had the very hasty chat with backstage. My
guest today is that woman Hatija jens After the screening,
Jenkis was descended upon by admirers, and thus the opportunity
to speak with her again did not arise until today.
With the opportunity to speak with Hatija once more as
(01:58):
she joined me from Turkey, I wanted to learn about
her history with and how they first crossed paths. I
met him in Istanbul in two thousand eighteen. I knew
him as an academic, as a writer, as a follow
in the Gulf studies, and he's a very known journalist
(02:20):
in the Middle East or around the world. I was
watching him when he gives interviews on the televisions. There
is a no more very famous writer or journalists from
Middle East. Jamal one of the most popular and well
known person as a foreign policies and defending democracy and
(02:42):
human rights and the other values that we are talking
about and he was a very very open mind and
the different from others. But when I start for him closely,
it was at the beginning of the arts being I
met him in the conference. It was may. I think
(03:04):
he talks about the Gulf countries, the situation, about the crisis,
and you know, human rights and there's a lot of
problems and issues that you cannot talk about the GCC
countries so very easily. So Jamal was out of South
Arabia at that time. He attended the conference from the States,
(03:28):
but I wasn't aware all of the information. Very closely,
you were not aware of his status with the saudiast
meaning when you met him in two thousand and eighteen,
he already was in self exile. He was villainized by
them in two thousand seventeen. So when you met him physically,
when you first, he was in the thick of it. Yes,
(03:48):
But I knew that he has moved to United States,
but I wasn't able to understand the whole these details.
I expected that he moved for a time for some period,
because I couldn't understand how someone like Jamal left his
country forever. You know, all this information I received afterwards
(04:11):
from Jamal when relations start between us. I made him
in the conference and as a listener. I did not
give any speech in that conference. And after the conference
break time, I said hello, I introduced myself and I said,
I am studied about Oman and I'm interested in golf
(04:33):
countries more than four years. And of course we were
talking in Arabic, and he interested in the sort of
these details that I know about the Gulf. It was
like electricity between two people. It wasn't a conversation just
between men and women. It was more than that. I
(04:55):
can say. It was a very warm conversation. I'm quite
surprised that man like Jamal was very humble to listen
to people like me, a very young researcher, and he
give me a chance to introduce myself and to talk
to him. And I thought, if you have some time,
(05:16):
can I do like a short interview or talk with
you more. And he didn't reply. He didn't response the questions,
so I said it's okay, I shouldn't ask more than this,
and I said I will be around and if you
like to talk to me, I will be really happy.
(05:39):
And then I left him. It was a break time
for coffee or something, and then I started following the
other sections and then talking with my friends and the
other young journalists and researchers, and he came and said, hello,
how are you. I want to talk to you if
you have time, and then we start talking about his experience,
(06:02):
the last moment that he had. I asked some questions
and he applied and he even allowed me to record this.
So it was the beginning of my relation with Jamal.
And we had a good conversation like half an hour
or forty minutes, and then he said, very nice to
meet you. He felt a very comfortable with me that
(06:26):
he wants to talk about more. But what I'm wondering though,
is knowing, as we do in the timeline that he
was already, you know, in a lot of trouble with
these people when he met you. Was he concerned when
you came into his life? Was he concerned about you?
And were you concerned about you? Did you think you
might be in danger? Actually I wasn't aware of all
(06:51):
the danger of his life in that level. Even Jamal
didn't knew that this people become like enemies to him,
try to put in jail or arrest him. He didn't
mention at all. You know if you have a relation
(07:13):
with someone like Jamal and that level, you cannot ask
any question very easily, do not hurt him. I was
very careful to understand demands, feelings and emotions tuition because
he was really really lonely that time. I was really
careful to not ask any question that I want to ask.
(07:35):
I just one time, remember ask him, do you think
that I have to know some sort of information or
kind of things that I have to know now before
the marriage because we were busy with buying home or
some sort of things for for house in that period.
(07:56):
I asked this question, and then he asked me why
you are asking this, and I said, because I do
not want to get in surprised after the marriage that
you didn't tell me something like the big issues in
your life, or if you have any points that you
hid me. I don't know. I just asked the question.
(08:18):
It seems that what you're saying is that neither one
of you was really fully aware. Even he wasn't fully
aware of the lengths these people were willing to go
to get him. Yes, he did not know anything kind
of dis thing, because I remember he once told me
his close friends, all of them in prisons right now.
(08:41):
He was very, very worrying about them, very sad about them.
He was crying every day about their stories. So when
you're in the Saudi consulate, when he goes in, and
you're there in Istanbul at that point in your life,
he had been forced to make the painful choice to
leave his wife and his family in Saudi. But he
(09:04):
was going to the consulate to get proof that he
was no longer married to his first wife in order
to be able to marry you. I mean he was
working for the Washington Post with the two of you
planning to stay in Turkey. What was your plan once
you were married? Where were you going to live? He
said to me, My relation with my country, with my
(09:26):
government is not that much bad that I have to
worry about. He said to me that. He said, Look,
I have worked to my country more than thirty five
years or forty years. I am a very well known journalist.
I am not criticizing Saudi. That's bad. I just advised them.
(09:46):
I couldn't do that in Saudi Arabia. Now I am
doing that in d C. He believed that there is
a good relation between him and Saudi because I am
not sody I am not living in Saudi Arabia. You
say that he didn't live in a general state of
fear of what the Saudis would do to him. I
(10:08):
guess it never crossed his mind that this was possible.
The first visiting, me and him, we went to Any
eight September before the second visiting, and he came out
like forty five minutes or something like that, and he
said to me, okay, it went very well. He was
(10:28):
very happy when he came out. He said, they gave
me coffee tea and asked about me my marriage, and
they encouraged me. They asked me some questions and we
have chat. He said to me, I am really happy
that I faced the very very nice picture of my
country that I was worrying about. He said to me that,
(10:52):
and he also sent some messages to his friends and
shared these his happiness. It's not just me and yet.
And he enters the building. He hands you to cell
phones and tells you if anything happens, you should contact
Airnagon himself. No, it wasn't true. Actually, he told me
I don't want to go to consulate. I don't want
(11:13):
to face this country and I am outside of Saudi
and maybe they will question me, they will get me
on pressure or some kind of these things. I don't
want to face it. But there is no way to
get married with you, and I want you like my wife.
He said to me to saw the consulate. They are
(11:34):
asking the phones out of the consulate, I mean out
of the offices inside the consulate, and they are keeping
them like in a box inside the concert. And I
don't trust in this situation, and I want you keep
them because lots of things in his phones, and you know,
messages that he don't want to share with these people.
(11:57):
And then he said, put this and he went in.
He didn't tell me call anyone or do some calls
with any kind of people or something like that. I
just said to him, don't worry. I'm here if something happens.
So when you win in in the first visit and
you go in to answer some questions and everything seems normal,
(12:19):
you know, everything seems like it's just functioning normally. They
they've got a job to do when you're going to
answer these questions. So when you go back the second time,
the faithful time, when you go then why didn't you
go into the building with him? Then why did he
want you to wait outside the rules of the consulate.
They did not allow to go inside with him. And
(12:39):
then I started waiting. It went like one hour, it
is okay, two hours, yes, you can say okay. But
after two hours, because it was a very simple conversation
the first time, and he said to me it was
a very nice conversation, and I thought it might be
like a more conversation questions. You know, the other people
(13:02):
talks a lot, so I don't know. After two hours,
I checked the time when the consulate close and it
was like three forty something like that, or maybe four,
And of course I was waiting a front of door.
Jamal did not came, and I was relaxed and and
(13:24):
I felt that not can happen. You know, he's in
there and hours go by. It's one thing to come
out to him and say, oh, he's not in the building.
He left, someone took him whatever. It's another thing for
them to tell you exactly what happened. When did you
find out exactly what happened to him? I called the
(13:45):
Consulate to explain myself. I am her Teag Turkey citizen.
I'm waiting out of door. Jamal did not come. Where
is Jamal. And then he said who you are and
then where are you right now? And then he came
out and checked on me and told me there is
(14:05):
no one inside. And I started worrying. It was a
very huge scared inside me. I made calls with people,
lots of people with a very worrying situation, and I
also called with my friends to come to stay with
me there because I felt there's something going on. And
(14:29):
so the situation at that time, I learned from guy
that came from Sudi consulate and then told me by
saying there is no one inside the consulate, there is
no Jamal. Jamal is not inside. He did not give
me more information and he went back and then I
(14:51):
started waiting. There so no Istanbul or Turkish police sat
you down and said they did not tell me. I
asked many times during the investigations, because when police question you,
they evegased me as well as a close person. So
I asked them and I also asked the head of
(15:13):
the court when they start investigation, and they said to me,
we are searching still, we are trying to understand. They
said to me, we still do some formation are not
clean or some kind of these responses that I received
(15:33):
from the people, and also this gave me a kind
of hope. You know, there wasn't any declaration or any
clear message that I received from the official one, so
I told, okay, let's see because you know, it is
a huge like a nightmare or tragedy you cannot believe,
(15:57):
and I did not able to understand what's going on.
I still very big shot and not the word that
I was leaving game. I am a not dead person
before Jamal Patija Jenis. If you appreciate conversations with international activists,
(16:19):
check out my episode with the director of the Crisis
and Conflict Division at Human Rights Watch, Ida Sawyer. They're
different kinds of chronic human rights abuses in different regions,
but I think in in countries where you have more
authoritarian governments, where you don't have freedom of expression, freedom
of the press, and there's crackdowns on political opposition leaders,
(16:41):
journalist activists, that's where we see some of the worst abuses,
and that can sometimes be related to abuses linked to
access to healthcare, education and those sorts of human rights
as well. To hear more of my conversation with Ida Sawyer,
go to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break,
(17:05):
Tiger shares her reaction to seeing the tragedy of Jamal
Kao's death brought to life in The Dissident. I'm Alec
Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Director Brian
(17:27):
Fogel's filmed The Dissident directly implicates Mohammed Ben Salmon's involvement
in the murder of Jamal ka Shoji. It is perhaps
one of the reasons the film struggled initially to find
a buyer. I wanted to know how he Tiger came
to meet Brian Focal. He reached me out at the
(17:48):
time that we have learned from Saldi that Jamal has
been killed, and it was a huge waves around toward
so it's whether big and huge shock for everyone, and
everyone also tried to reach me out to make an interview.
One of them was Brian. He phoned me and he
(18:12):
asked me to come to Istanbul to visit me and
he wants to make a film for tomorrow. But after
that phone call, Champagne he has called me as well
and then he came before Brian visited me in Istanbul
and then we met and we talked. He was a
(18:33):
very very touch with this story, and he cried and
I cried, and we talked and it was a very
unique time. And then Brian came and then he did
not mention lots of things about the detail. And then
I listened to Brian and I decided to with Brian
because I listened him very carefully, and he said, look,
(18:54):
this my plan, and I will do that during the year,
and I will start that time and I'll finished that time,
and I have a film about the staff in Russia,
the Acarus. And then I have watched also his film,
and I said, look, it is something that it's serious.
I have to make a decision between them. And also
(19:18):
they collaborated. Yeah, they worked together to produce the film.
Brian was professional for these details. So it went very well.
When you finally see the film, what was that like?
What was your reaction? My reaction was very interesting that
I cried a lot. I was in Italy. I watched
(19:39):
it before sentence because according to our agreement, that was
a condition that I have to see before release. So
I watched there. I didn't believe that all these things
happened again and again. It was the first time to
see myself, which the the real tragedy, and then you
(20:02):
are a part of this tragedy in reality, not in
your mind or in my mind, in my heart. Now
I'm seeing what happened to me to jama and I
started to realize how a huge things happened and happening
in my life, how I feel deal with this, how
(20:24):
I will start living like any normal person. And I
start to realize that my life has changed one or
more now at the time of the event, at the
time of his murder in the consulate, the film depicts
(20:45):
certain police detectives what have you, whether they're in the
city of Istanbul or their National police figures in Turkey itself.
Did you trust the Istanbul and the Turkish police authorities
with the work that they did. Did you feel you
that they were genuinely trying to solve the case? Yes,
they did. I think in this case they did a
(21:06):
great job because they were in a very big shock
like me. I remember the time that questioning me to
understand because no one knows about tomorrow. By the way,
in Turkey, the normal people in the country, they try
to understand why did this happen in Turkey? In Istanbul,
(21:27):
they try to understand what's going on. So his children
eventually at some point inform the Saudi government through whatever
channels that they don't want these people that were arrested.
They want them pardoned and they don't want them to
face the death penalty. What were your feelings about that?
Were you disappointed? I understand. I tried to understand more
(21:53):
and more. It wasn't easy. At the time that they
made a deficion. I decided to not make any comment
why because it is not my point that I fight
with his family. I mean Jamal's family. They are not
my enemies, and they decided to forgive the criminals, in
(22:15):
my opinion, not because they want. They forced the biggest
challenges in their life and they made this decision for
their life. I have to respect why because I am
not sorry, I am not living in Saudi Arabia, and
also they are Jamal's family. There is no point to
(22:39):
fight with these people. And if I meet them, I
am sure I will become a very close friend of them.
How many children does he have? Total? Four, two sons,
two daughters. Me and Jamal and Jama's son went to
cafe and launched together dinner together. I take them to
(22:59):
do best restaurant in the Bosphorus and v spent a very,
very wonderful time together before he's killed, had teacher Jenkis.
If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be
sure to follow Here's the thing on the I Heart
(23:20):
radio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When
we come back at tjer Jenkis shares who Jamal Kashi
really was. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's
(23:42):
the Thing. After the assassination of Jamal Kashoji, then President
Trump went against his own intelligence community, saying he believed
Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed ben Solomon was not involved in
the killing. Recently, the Crown Prince was grant immunity as
sitting head of government by the Biden administration, and her
(24:06):
teacher's lawsuit against him was then dismissed. To date, Jenkis
has appeared before the u N, the European Parliament, and
a tribunal at the Hague calling for justice for her fiancee.
I was curious if she felt these international organizations would
continue the fight for accountability. Actually, at the beginning they
(24:28):
gave me some sort of hope by words, but at
the moment, what I am doing or what I'm planning
to do is we are working on a progress that
trying to understand from jurisdiction, international jurisdiction that which country
that we can do something more Trump for that time
(24:50):
it was president and he has stayed with NBS directly
without any accusing and he in sure that he will
not do any kind of moment against him, and he
tried to defend him in a very interesting ways. So
(25:10):
after this position, what I understand from the politics, if
the United States did not sign that it will do
something and then the others follows them to the United
States has typically a leadership role among people in the
international community, and they've abandoned that role. Now in this case, yes,
(25:34):
they did follow the United States very closely and very directly.
And because of this, I start understand from the European
Parliament and the United Nations, which I gave more than
one time speech and I asked more questions and investigation,
they did not take any sort of serious action after
(25:57):
the report. Even the United Asian did not take any
step against the criminals. So what would I do. In Turkey,
they also have finished and closed the case and sent
to Saudi Arabia. And then you know also say it
gave the criminals the immunity. So the plan is now
(26:18):
that I have to carry on this mission and vision
that keep Jamal's nay alive. So you haven't given up,
that's what you're saying. You have not given up. I
need to get the truth. I need it because still
we don't know Jamal's body were. We still don't know
why and what happened to him, why they killed Jamal.
(26:41):
I thought The Dissident was a wonderful film and and
a highly disturbing one. When you watch the film, he
is the subject, and I was overcome really by how
charming he was, how funny he was. He had this little, ry,
little look on his face. He was an unusually bright
and clever man. But when you watch the film, you
(27:05):
kind of become very warm towards the case, and you
really really he wins you over in your mind when
you tell people who was Jamal to you? In general,
you cannot find easily a kind man. You can find
rich man, you can find handsome men, who can find
(27:26):
you know, famous man. For example, Jamal was a very
generous person. He was a kind and humble person. A
good listener, and he understands woman and how they think
about man's and talking very few words but meaning words
(27:50):
and try to understand from the behaves, not from the
words that I was looking for. And Jamal was a
man who understand from the eyes, from the feelings, from
the hearts, and from the behind of words and behind
(28:12):
your beauty and behind your feelings. He said, the most
important point in life is to understand someone who loves you.
And he said, you I ever met in my life,
any person like you that you loved me, very different
from any woman I met. So I understand him from inside,
(28:36):
not from outside. I met Jamal as a man in reality,
not as a journalist. You are talking about someone who
lost everything. He left his country, he left his family,
his children, his wife's, his famous city, and you know,
started over. And he he's not happy with that. He
made this decision because of the situation. But he far
(29:00):
himself very lonely and very weak at the same time.
But he cannot explain this part to people to understand him.
So the situation was very unique. I can say that
one time he asked me he was worrying about my
feature a little bit, and then he asked me many times,
(29:20):
are you happy with me? Or are you scared? I said,
it's okay, because I want to live with you whenever
I can or you can. I want to share with
my life with you whenever you are alive in this life.
He just touched my soul and also at the same time,
(29:40):
I thought his soul because I did not got married
with someone famous. He wasn't famous with me. He wasn't
that rich man with me. He was a very, very
honest and open and humble and smiling person. With someone
like me. It was like the big present from God
that you cannot expect that much peak because when he came,
(30:05):
he covered the whole things that I lost in my life. Obviously,
I don't want to use a cliche like the love
story between the two of you, but as two people
who meet each other under these circumstances, and you only
knew him very briefly, you only knew him for a
matter of months before the horrible event occurred. The other
(30:26):
tragedy of this story is how you felt about each
other and how you came together. That's a huge part
of the story for me, as for a man who
had to abandon his family, didn't want to do that
and found someone like you. You're obviously a incredibly bright, educated,
(30:47):
engaged person, and the two of you come together and
then this terrible thing happens. That's among the saddest parts
of the story of all. Just the last word that
I want to say. If you saw want asked me,
what did you understand from your story or what did
you face through this story that you face it in
(31:10):
your life. I have achieved the two things, the personal
things and general things. The personal things from Jamal, The
first one that any person in the life the need
is a safety. Jamal left his country because of safety,
and without love, no one can leave. Jamal was needed
(31:33):
the real love when he left his country. The safety,
love and faith. You have to have a faith or
goal in this life. It is from the personal side
that we have to keep all these the treatings in
our life, our safety, our loves, and our goals. I
(31:55):
am grateful to you for doing this. I really really am.
Thank you. M H my thanks to human rights activist
at t J Jenkis. This episode was recorded at c
DM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo,
Zach McNeice and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial.
(32:19):
Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin.
Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio
Host
Alec Baldwin
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