July 5, 2022 • 39 mins
Television director James Burrows has been working since the 1970s on beloved series like Taxi, Cheers, Friends, Frasier, and Will & Grace. He has directed over 1,000 hours of television, co-created the long-running, critically-acclaimed series Cheers and is the recipient of 11 Emmy Awards and a DGA Lifetime Achievement Award. His golden touch becomes apparent when you consider that a staggering 75 of the series pilots he directed, including The Big Bang Theory and Two and a Half Men, advanced to series. His new book, the memoir “Directed by James Burrows,” details his accomplished life and career. James Burrows and Alec discuss their favorite parts of working together, how Burrows got his start in the entertainment industry and why his book is ultimately about kindness.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from My Heart Radio. You may not know the
name of my guest today, but you certainly know his work.
In fact, you've probably watched hours upon hours of it.
He's been called the Steven Spielberg of sitcom's, the Willie
Mays of directing, the sitcom Sorcerer. It's the legendary James Burrows.
(00:28):
Burrows is the director of some of the most popular
and acclaimed television shows in history, including Taxi, Cheers, Will
and Grace, Friends, and Frasier. In his five decades of work,
the eleven time Emmy winner has directed seventy five pilots
that went to series, including The Big Bang Theory and
(00:49):
Two and a Half Men, spanning over one thousand hours
of television. He's also the author of a memoir entitled
Directed by James Burrows, which we counts his incredible career.
Burrows also has an amazing pedigree. He's the son of
famed radio and theater director Abe Burrows, but Tony and
(01:11):
Politzer Prize winner whose credits include Guys and Dolls and
How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. I wanted
to know what it was like growing up with such
an accomplished and influential father. My parents were divorced, so
we live with our mom five blocks away from our dad.
So we'd see our dad probably twice a week, once,
(01:32):
you know, on a school day for dinner, and then
on a Sunday for maybe football or something like that.
So he was around in that way. But I al
would like to say that, you know, I was in
the family business. I didn't know anything else. The only
thing I knew is I didn't want to be in
that business. I didn't want to. I didn't want to
try to compete with a legend because he was a
(01:53):
legend in New York City, brought by music. Yeah, Broadway
musicals and Broadway plays. And my sister and I used
to go when we were thirteen and fourteen and meet
you know, Truman, Capodi and John Steinbeck and Comdon and
Green and called porter Una. I mean, all these they
were just older people. They I didn't know. I had
(02:13):
no idea what boring boring. I like to say my
dad taught me when I didn't know I was learning,
because he would trundle my sister and I off to
rehearsals occasionally, and we would sit in the audience because
we're gonna have dinner with him. We would come like
four o'clock and we sit in the house and see
him working on stage or a rehearsal hall, and we
(02:35):
didn't I didn't understand what he did at all. But again,
it was a lot of osmosis at work, latent learning,
the latent learning, Yeah, it's in there, and then he
winning the back seat with your sister going no, Dad,
I got a horse right here. His name is It's
a little dough. Put them in there. No, I never
(02:55):
did that. I never remember time did I did. When
I after college and graduate school, I worked with him
as a stage manager, so I would inject a couple
of what I thought were funny things, and he was
incredibly tolerant of me. I think one of them made
it in one of his plays. But that was it.
(03:16):
But isn't it funny how in your life it all
loops around in a way. Because I wanted to ask
you a question about the nature of casts who have
roots in the theater and those that don't. A lot
of theater roots with Kelsey and Hyde Pierce and with
the Will and grace cast. Isn't it funny? In the
life of Jimmy Burrows? Did we come back to this,
(03:39):
which is Megan mollal mean, Megan does how to succeed
with Matthew A long long time ago? Your dad, I
went to see it, of course, I said, they playhouse.
I thought to where I saw it. I was with dad,
my wife and then my sister's late husband. We're in
a motor home and a driver and drove it down
and drove drove down Illahoya and it was it was one. Yeah,
(04:02):
it was wonderful. But then that leads me to I
want to get back to your schooling. Why go from
it was political science? And what were you studying at government?
Studying government? And then you go and you get a
master's degree in theater. You know, you're in the Yale
drama program. Why are you trying to run away from
the family business. I was trying to run away from
the draft. You know it was it was Vietnam wartime,
(04:23):
and uh, you're probably too young. A lot of us
didn't believe in the war and that particular one. And
after Oberlin I got my draft notice, I decided to
try and postpone it. As long as I could. So
I went to the Yale School of Drama, where I
was exposed to all these you know, because if you're
(04:44):
in there, you have to take a course in directing, acting, playwrighting,
scenic design, stage manager, all these courses. And I went
and had a class in directing with Nico Sakaropolis, who
who went on to run The Williams. And he kind
of in my eyes to exactly what a director does.
Because I knew I was an actor, I knew I
couldn't write plays, so I, you know, I got to
(05:07):
direct a couple of small scenes. I think I did.
I got the horse right here with a couple of students.
I staged that and and then when I got out,
I still had to take a physical for the Army,
and fortunately I was. They didn't want me, I was.
I guess I was too funny, you know, So I
can't have that, I know, God, No, we need discipline.
(05:30):
And then I started stage managing because as a stage
manager you direct the understudies. So I got more and
more practice in doing that, and then I would do
summer stock productions of The Odd Couple with Stubby k
and Arnold Stangby k who was in the original original
Guys and Dolls, and you know productions of Never Too
(05:51):
Late with Bob Cummings. But let me let me just
say that street Car on Broadway. I considered that one
of the great years on Broadway because Kate Burton's doing
Jex Women with Alan Alda and Guys and Telsa's I'm
Broadly with Nathan and I'll never forget the Banner. Although
we did run for a very long time, it was
in a huge success. This the banner all wrapped around
the canopy said this show will run forever. But I
(06:15):
went to see that show twice and Faith Prince. They
all made me cry. Walter Bobby playing that role and
singing rock in the boat and I love that show.
I cried. And Peter Gallaghter Galina Gallagher was sky Masters, Yeah,
it was a dear friend of mine. Yeah, and then
all of them, I mean, I love that show. That
was the most funny I've ever had watching a show
without the producers. I mean, I love Nathan, but then
(06:37):
Stubby k and you're and you're directing the understudies And
what did you think directing was back then? And how
has that changed over the years. Well for you, Directing
for me was back then you had a script that
never changed. So I was doing plays. You know, I
had a couple of plausas week marriage go around, so
(06:57):
there was a lot of nuance involved in it, a
lot of you know, I could put in physical bits
when I thought it would help. So I knew I
had that creative sense. I did in uh ninety eight,
after you know I had in my career had taken off,
I did a theater production to the man who came
to Dinner with Mahoney because Mahony, Yeah, Mahoney was on
(07:18):
Frasier and he arranged for me to direct it at Steppenwolf,
and uh, I put in like four jokes, you know,
and George Calfman's daughter came to the show, and I was,
you know, I was concerned. I knew George. I knew
George through my dad and George Calsan's daughter. And at
the end she said, I liked your auditions. It was
(07:38):
so sweet. Usually they hated, but they were they were
big laughs. So but anyway, so when I was, you know,
doing summerstock and dinner thing, I was just trying. You
had to get a play up on its feet in
a week. So there was a lot of rapid stuff.
So I found myself people who could think, Yeah, I
found myself more dinner theaters wanted me and or regional
(08:01):
theorist Coast, East Coast. You know, television is a writer's
medium too, as in Broadway. Broadway, the playwright is paramount
in in what I do, the writers are paramount. But
I have my time along with the actors. As you know,
I've directed you a few times, and that's the time
when my creative juices come out, and I don't want
(08:23):
a guy behind me judging, you know what I do.
What I say, I'll move, you know, say the line
this way before I can see it and say, well,
maybe that doesn't work. I don't want a guy behind
me saying no, don't prompt, preempting me. That's totally debilitating
for a director who would preempt you. Well, I mean
the writers, No, I know, but when the writers come down,
(08:46):
they see our work, you know, they see what we've passed. Yes,
I get a pass, and you know I'll never forget.
In a taxi episode I was directing, I had him move.
I had this move that I thought it was funny,
and I don't remember who did it, but the actor
executed it. And then all of a sudden the writer
(09:08):
turned around to me and said, what the funk was that?
And so we went on with rehearsal, and after I
took him aside and I said, if I'm not allowed
to fail, I'll give you nine good things, but one
may be bad. But you know, God forbid, he's over
my shoulder when I'm when I'm trying to do it
for myself. So you know, everything you think of, you
(09:31):
think is funny, it's not necessarily funny. In the end,
you have to, you know, try try it. Yeah, Well,
describe for me the seam of whatever length and whatever
different components takes you from directing Stubby k And we
were seeing stand ins to your first four ways into Hollywood?
When does Hollywood become your future? In nineteen sixty six,
(09:57):
my first job on Broadway was as the assistant to
the assistant stage manager on the Broadway production of Breakfast
at Tiffany's, a musical that my dad wrote based on
Breakfast at Tiffany's. And so as the assistant to the
assistant I was in charge of the actors from Hollywood
(10:18):
who were going to be in the show. Mary Tyler, Moore,
Richard Chamberlain, Laura Petrie and Dr Kildare, We're going to
be in the production. And it was not my dad's
best work at all. It was you know, he went
into rehearsal with one act and we opened in Philadelphia
(10:39):
and they had a huge advance sale because of Dr
Kildare and Laura Petrie, and then it was Chamberlain, Dick Chamberlain. Yeah,
and so David Merrick didn't like the show, so he
replaced my dad with Edward Albe. Wow. Wow, an obvious choice.
(11:01):
Let's have Dick chamber and Mary Tyler. We'll cool each
other's eyes out. Well, they're swimming bobbles of vodka. Yeah,
I'm sure you wanted George and Martha, you know. So
then Mark didn't want to go back out of town
with the show, so we played previews and Edward did
stuff to help the production by putting in Holly's miscarriage.
(11:22):
This is a Broadway musical. It was just horrible. And
the audience when we opened in New York for previous
food and every time Mary would come off stage, I
would be there and she would wrap her arms around
me and start crying. She was so devastated by the
audience reaction. And once they night came, Mary closed the show.
(11:44):
I sat with Mary at Sartie's. We had an awake
at Sarti's till Grant Tinker, her husband arrived, and they
went off, and then I went to Summer Stock and everything.
And then in ninety three I was watching television on
US Saturday night after directing Joan Fontaine in Forty Carrots,
(12:06):
and I turned on the television. There was a Mary
Tyler Moore show and I hadn't seen it before, I
hadn't registered with me before, but I noticed they were
doing a play. There's a multi camera sitcom, which you know,
it's a it's a play that's filmed. It's proscenium, proscenium,
everything like that. And I said, wow, they're doing twenty
five minutes in a week and I'm doing two hours
(12:26):
in a week. I think I can do that. So
I wrote a letter to Mary Tyler Moore because I
didn't know Grant that well. And about two weeks later
I got a letter from Grant Inker saying, we have
four multi camera sitcoms. We are very interested in theatrical directors.
Would you come out and do one show that was
(12:47):
February of I said, great, maybe I was going to
do a New Heart or a Rhoda or a Bob
Crane show or a Paul Sancho, but said, no, you're
gonna do a Mary Tyler Moore show. You know. So
I was thrust into this, into this endeavor I didn't know.
I had to learn. I had to come and observe
for three months to observe the technical aspectal you know,
(13:09):
I knew how to talk to actors and stuff like that, which,
even though it was much simpler back then, I'm sure, yeah,
it's still something that was foreign too. Yeah, totally foreign.
So I had to learn that. I learned that by
watching J Sandrich, who was my mentor and to me,
the king of Sitcom's describe that experience, meaning when you're
doing it and you've been around successful people, all the
cylinders are clicking on great shows, how to succeed your dad,
(13:31):
or these legendary musicals, things you've done, And when you
were there, did you sit there and go, yeah, I
like this. Okay, you're going to get a courtesy van.
Back to the telling your furnishing van for Mr. Your
first shot in television and you're on like the number
of top five show with the biggest people in television.
(13:53):
I know, I was scared out of my witch and
it was it was daunting. You know. You read the
script around it able as you know, before you rehearse,
and it was a C minus script and I said,
the grand tinker in a sea of Danish, I get
a bagel, you know. So I had the script and
in those days, you went down and immediately rehearsed and
(14:15):
while the writers were rewriting, so you were rehearsing stuff
on your feet, on your feet that you knew it
was going to change. So it was like rearranging chickchairs
on the Titanic. And Mary, Mary hated the script and
she would complain. I said, hopefully they'll make it better.
And it was called The Neighbors something like that because
it was Loue moves into Rhoda's apartment because Rhoda had
(14:37):
spun off to do her own show. So lou moves
into Rhoda's apartment, so that lou and Mary are living
together and they're working together. So that was the thrust
of the show. And uh, you know, I was just
treading water. I was, you know, five six of the
best actors on television, and I was a thirty four
year old Pisha who they probably didn't think I knew
(14:59):
what I was doing, and I didn't think I knew
what I was doing. But what happened? You said that
it was a C plus D script, But I invoked Chekhov,
I invoked Shakespeare just to try to enhance the piece
and make the piece better. How so, well, in the
last scene, when Lou figures it's time to move out,
I had his two suitcases there, and I said to
(15:19):
Marry into ed, sit on those suitcases and reminisce like
you're in the cherry orchard and you're leaving the cherry orchard.
So they did. And you know, I tried to put
in some funny stuff, but I never I played by
the rules of that show. If you're going in as
a guest director on a show, you gotta play by
(15:41):
the rules of that show, you know, you just because everybody, yeah,
you do. And so I I did that. And just
before the show was shot, I was walking to back
to my dressing room and Mary came out of her
trailer and she stopped me and she said, Jim, we
feel our investment and you has worked out. Oh my god,
(16:04):
I wept. I went back. I wept, And the next
day I had called from the New Heart Show, from
the Paul Sanchow, from Bob Crane Show. They wanted me
to direct. So that literally was the birth of my
television career. Director James Burrows. If you enjoyed conversations with
(16:25):
accomplished directors, check out my episode with Cameron Crowe. Generally,
not every time, but generally a movie will have your spirit,
your the movie will have your signature somewhere. Even even
the movies where, like you know, Penny Marshall came in
at the last minute and replaced so and so it's
it's a Penny Marshall movie. The director's personality seeps in Hallelujah.
(16:50):
And I love playing with that. I love playing with
like the sensibility and the feeling that the movie is
gonna give you. Music helps the relationship on the set,
Like when we've been able to work together, it's really
been wonderful to have like the environmental version of directing
where we all are together kind of vibing, and there
are relationships that are separate and the characters are part
(17:12):
of it and we're doing this thing together. I think
that feeling gets into the movie. Here the rest of
my conversation with Cameron Crowe in our archives at Here's
the Thing dot org. After the break, James Burrows tells
us about the casting kismet on Friends. I'm Alec Baldwin
(17:45):
and you're listening to Here's the Thing. The Emmy winning
series Cheers ran for eleven seasons, for a total of
two episodes, with James Burrows directing all but thirty five
of them. I wanted to know how he chooses to
stay with the show for the length of its run
as he did with Cheers. Well, it was at a
(18:08):
point where people felt confident enough for me to be
the permanent director. Did other shows have them, Yeah, I
think Paul Bogart did a lot of All in the Families,
and John Richard a lot of Dick Van Dyke shows,
and Jay did The Mary's but nobody did as many
as I did. And I did it. I did it
(18:29):
because I love the show. But the people who don't
know the first show that you do that of the
long runs which one taxi Taxi was created by the guys.
Two of the guys who created The Mary Tyler Moore Show.
Jim Brooks and Alan Burns created Mary Tyler Moore. Jim
Brooks and Ed Weinberger. Ed was a writer on the show,
Stan Daniels and Dave Davis Worthy four who created a
(18:50):
taxi and they asked me to be the permanent director.
So although once before I did Laverne and Shirley, I
directed some of them. And after about three shows, Gary
Marshall took me to do you remember ni Ovalas and Nicodell's,
the two restaurants that were on the paramount, and he said,
(19:10):
would you consider staying with the show? And I, and
all due respect to you, I I can't. It was
too it was too it was too crazy. My friend
was a writer on that show, Dan Olson, Oh my god,
Dana Wilson was my buddy and I hung out with
him and he told me, I don't want to pin
this on Olsen, but someone told me that they're corresponding managers.
(19:32):
Their respective managers would sit there with stop watches in time,
how long the tally light was on their client, who
got more camera time. There was such a kind of
a competitiveness between Penny and Penny, and so I was
on the show and the ship hit her fan. He
said it was really not. It was such a successful show,
and they just it was not anyway. So I told
Gary I didn't want to do do it, and then one
(19:53):
tact she came along and I read that script and
they asked me to commit to it. I said, sure,
if I'm not mistaken Taxi. At that point, Danza went
on to do Who's the Boss after Taxi? Correct? So
you had a menagerie of actors, none of whom were
that famous on their own, you know what I mean.
De Vito, Lloyd, Judd Hirsch had a Broadway career, but
(20:15):
not a big TV or film Danza, Mary Lou Kaufman,
all of them, this is the show that made them
really famous, that took them to that next level. And
I was wondering, what's it like for you when you
work with a bunch of people. Do you see them?
I'm not asking you to disparage anybody, but would you
say people become big stars in these television shows, do
they change? Yeah? I mean without naming names, do you
see the cast change? The cast jelled for me? That
(20:39):
was again I talked about that as an interplanetary cast.
There are there are people. You know, Andy was a
comic and and the bravest comic I've ever seen in
my life. And Tony was a boxer, croner and a croner.
And so my job, as I talked about in the book,
(21:01):
is to create a homogeneous group of people who are
all in a lifeboat. Everybody has their own oars and
pulls it intoandem. And so it was that was my
first big show. And it was difficult on that show
because there were so many eccentricities. Andy Kaufman had day
(21:21):
night reversal and didn't come into one, but he had
a photographic memory, so he didn't you know, he knew
his part when he came in. You know, Jim Brooks,
the writer was off doing starting over that movie. He
was writing it, and so we had all these things
that you had to juggle, and so it was very
difficult for me. But I think there's some of my
(21:42):
best work. Some of the funniest shows I've ever did
are on war done on taxi. I think, what does
the yellow light mean? The Reverend Gym show when he
becomes a cabbyast goes down in history as maybe the
biggest laugh I've ever directed. And so I don't know
if they, Well, look who who would you think be
the movie star at that show? Danny DeVito. I had
(22:04):
a wonderful time on the show. I learned a lot
and it's the moment that I cemented my relationship with
the Charles brothers because the Charles brothers were producers on
that show. So they had a difficult task in coordinating
the writing because Jim wasn't around all the time and
when he came, he would say he wanted it this way,
and then Ed would see that and say, no, I
(22:24):
want it this way. So it was it was difficult.
It turned out to be a wonderful show. But Glenn
a Less had as difficult a time as I did,
and that's where we became really close because we had
the same agent, and he said, we have to do
our own show. I'm wondering, was there a difference for you? Again,
without disparaging anybody by any means, was there just a
(22:45):
difference for you with a theater based cast Kelsey, Hype,
Pierce and so forth, and the cast of Will and Grace,
all of them with theater. But I think Deb's de
deb was just on stage here, Shan's superstage worthy. I
wor ship him. I worship him. McCormick, Dost Theater and
Megan Dost Theater, and then other shows you've done where
(23:06):
there's nary a theater, Dennis and among the bunch. You know,
there's not many theater credits in the Friends cast a Swimmer, Swimmer,
he still one out of six looking Glass Theater. Yeah,
did you find it? So? Do you? You You had a
different language with those that had a theater background or no,
the same, No, I you know I would tell them
(23:27):
in the beginning, this is theater. It's it's an amalgam
of theater and film, but it's basically theater because you
have to tell the story to the fifty people watching
you that night, and so you tell the story to
them in theater, your reactions have to be bigger because
to reach the person in the balcony, you can't be subtle.
(23:50):
That's subtle in theater, you know, you have to have
to be a little bit exaggerated. I told him, I
will be on you if you're reactions are too big,
because this is going out on a television screen, so
it the irractions can't be as big as they are
in the theater, but they have to be enough to
get a laugh, not only with this audience but with
(24:11):
the audience at home. So the kids were pretty good
on On Friends. You know, Lisa was in the ground,
links Jen was amazing, and they just embraced and inhabited
those characters like it was it was a gold mine. Well,
I don't think we ever read anybody together. So when
I got up to six of them down on stage
(24:33):
and they just fit like a glove, it was, oh
my god. They were since they were sinked, and I said,
this is crazy. When I did William Grace, you could
see that they were so welcoming to your package is leaking.
You've stole my life. I'm standing there and he says,
and she says goodbye to me. We closed the drum
(24:54):
and love with Megan. He says, your package is leaking. Said,
what can I say? I like her because you brought
her ice I brought the ice cream, which was your
package is dripping. Whatever. You know better than I do.
So when I do that show, they were so welcoming
and they were so sweet when I did will and
Grace because they were just so charming, and Megan was
(25:15):
the one who I always say the same line Megan
was the one who helped to at least in part,
broke er my deal with thirty Rock because Megan said,
you listen as she said, it's fun. I mean I
never dreamed of doing a sitcom. And when I did
thirty Rock, I said, I'll do six episodes recurring and
that's it. And uh, they twisted my arm or whatever
to do it and and SLRN I worship. But when
(25:37):
I came to do the show, you see where when
it comes to tape time much and it comes down
Cohen behind him much because a lot to say. He
has a lot of lines and jokes and things that
his notes and so forth. Is every show the same
that way or all the show is different in terms
of the input of the top people. No, I on
any show I do, anybody can say anything about anything.
(25:59):
Check your ego at the door. So I mean, if
you had a problem on Will and Grace, you you
know you would come to me and say a problem.
Max is Max. He's genius. You know you deal with
him because he's so valuable to the show. And one
of the one of your gifts is that you play
in the same intensity as the four of them, and
(26:20):
with it you know we had a lot. We had
over two hundred and fifty guest stars on Will and Grace,
and invariably they would come in like they were a star,
and I would take them aside and say, when you
rehearsing with this cast, in rehearsal, they do of what
(26:41):
they can do, and then when you get to the showtime,
it's a hundred to a hundred and fifty and if
you don't keep up, you're gonna be on the editing
room floor. So you you have your your on our show.
You agreed to her show. You gotta play by the
rules of the show, and I don't want you to disappear,
and you have or to come in. You know you
are happy to be there, happy to be there, also
(27:03):
larger than life, which is important on that show because
that show is a fair to keep up literally in
figurative director James Burrows. If you're enjoying this conversation, be
sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(27:26):
When we come back, James Burrows tells us why his
new book is ultimately about kindness. I'm Alec Baldwin and
this is Here's the thing from my heart Radio. I
(27:49):
was lucky enough to work with director James Burrows as
a guest star on Will and Grace. We also work
together on a pilot starring myself and Kelsey Grammar that
did not get picked for Serious. With burrows incredible track record,
I wanted to know if he has a sixth sense
about which shows will succeed and which won't when I
(28:11):
read them, I don't know. You know, When I read
some of these pilots, I thought they were okay and
I could maybe with a little smoke and mirrors, make
it go. A few of them I made go, but
they didn't last very long. But I try not to
do pilots that I don't think you're going to go.
But as to that pilot, I was shocked that the
(28:32):
network didn't. I don't know what was going on in
the ABC headquarters and watching the show, but you had
two monumental stars who played you know, it was Nol Coward,
it was it was Will and Grace. It was that
kind of intensity to your relationship that was exhilarating to
(28:55):
me and funny to the audience we had there, and
I wish I was shocked I don't know if there
were politics involved or what was involved, but they sure
don't have a show on ABC that's commensurate with that show. Now,
you have no doubt. And I'm not just saying this.
I loved working with you. Everybody loves working with you.
(29:18):
You say that J Sandrich, J Sanders never put two
people on a suitcase and starting the cherry orchard. I
doubt you say J. Sandrids is the king. He's not
the king. You're the king. And everybody who works with
you loves you. They love you, and you do this show.
And were you ever tempted to run out and do
movies and write scripts and and go into those other
(29:40):
cord or never? I was never a writer. I I
ruled that out. I did a pilot for Stephen Botco
in nine seventies seven called Every Stray Dog and Kid
single camera pilot Our Jackie Earl Haley back then and uh,
Bruce White's Uh. I didn't no movies. I did a
(30:03):
movie called Partners. It was a movie. Aaron Russo came
to me after taxi and he said, I have this
movie that written by Francis vai Vert who wrote Lakaja Fall,
and it was about. It was, it was present and
the fact that it was about a straight cop and
a gay cop. This Ryan O'Neill, Yeah, Ryan O'Neill and
(30:23):
John heard. Can you believe I remember that. I can't
believe that, Ryan O'Neill, and it was they go undercover
to solve a murder and it tend to be a
gay couple and the problem, you know a lot of
the problems. You wanted Clan Eastwood in their part. You
wanted a guy, the most macho man in the world,
having to dress and change and leather, you know, that's
(30:45):
what you want. You wanted Charlie Bronson, somebody like that,
and we had at one point we had Peter Regert
to play the gay cop and wed Sam Elliott, who
would have been great, but we couldn't get it past
the studio, so we ended up with Ryan and John.
What's difficult for me in the movies is number one,
it takes two years to hear the reaction, and two,
(31:08):
it was tough for me in the comedy scenes. You
shoot a master and everybody's kind of funny. Then you
start to shoot the close up and the magic's gone.
I did a documentary where, um, what is his name?
Who's the famous actor that's married to Eva? On I
(31:31):
miss you? I do, sorry were I would have been
on your show. I would have stayed on that show
because I had so much fun. You know something. Let
me tell you. So, I'm sitting there and I was
so excited. I thought, my god. Kelsey Grammar calls it.
He goes, so, how's everything going. I mean, he's like
such a force of nature. How's everything going? I go,
(31:51):
it's going, okay, I said, I mean, we're gonna make
the deal. I mean, I'm not. My whole thing is
don't get too crazy. And um. He was from a
different school of negotiating because he was king of TV.
I His career in TV obviously eclipsed mine. He started big, big,
big successful shows. But he calls hip and he goes, uh,
what are you going in that? What are you asking for?
What are you going in that? And I go, well,
(32:11):
I thought I would kind of, like, you know, be
the good partner. And I keep the numbers low seasons
and one in seasons two, and if we get to
see so like I did in thirty Rock season four,
season five, we step it up. And then season five
and season six, I want to hear them crying all
the way from the studio. I want to we're gonna
backload all the money into season five and six, and
he goes, I'm coming in a blank and he named
some number that I was like, I was going to
(32:32):
fall off the chair. And I thought after that, I go, well,
of course you are. Of course you are. That's probably
what you got paid in the last season of your
last show. I mean, he was like this comedy on
the Mount Rushmore of TV comedy because I was always
a poll that we didn't pull that off. Uh, you
prompted me with here about you shoot the master, then
(32:52):
you go back and you do the close ups and
sold of gone. I did a film that was a
documentary about can and um in the tone. Ryan Gosling
has the most wonderful take on exactly what you said,
the Arthur Murray esque progression of shooting stuff where it's
like do it again, do it again. Now we're gonna
come in closer and do it again, and do it again,
(33:13):
but make it fresh and do the same thing you
did again close up, you know, mid shot, cowboy tight
e c U. And he said to me, it's just
like it's a fucking nightmare. But in his language, we
got a Gosling on film now. I'm assuming because you
are a legend in television comedy that you know. Lord
(33:34):
Michael said, networks the best. I said why. He said,
why it goes because it demands more of you. You
can't say funk on the network. You have to say
funk without saying funk. You can't go blue. So you've
got to be smarter, clever, better. And when I turn
on TV now and I'm on streaming service, as somebody says,
Susie was late for work today. Fuck, everybody laughs because
(33:56):
they're saying, oh my god, they said, fuck, you've never
gone to a streaming service. I did one show for
Chuck Laurie that was on with Kathy Bates called Disjointed.
She owned a pot shop and I think it lasted
twelve episodes something like that. I had a great had
a great time working with her. She's what a pro.
(34:17):
And but I'm sure you've been asked to come and
maybe they tried to seduce you to come and do.
They don't do a lot of three camera, multi camera shows,
but even single camera for them, I'm not good. I'm
I like, I like to get home early, as you
know that the multi camera schedule is the greatest in
the world. And you're talking about what Lauren I I
(34:38):
corroborate what he says because the euphemism is funnier than
the actual work. On Will and Grace, I mean Karen leaking, Yeah, yeah,
package is leaking or uh, you know, Karen had nine
different euphemisms for vagina. You know, so euphemism harder to
think of. It was it is funny your stuff? Why
(35:04):
write a book? Meaning it's like, doesn't your work speak
for itself when you wanted to write a book? Why?
I have all these stories that are that are in
the book and I tell them to you know, I
look for new friends so I can tell him the
stories because I have to held all my old friends
the same stories. And it was COVID. It was the
(35:25):
beginning of COVID, and my wife, Debbie came and said
to me, you got to write a book, what she
had been saying for the past ten years. And I said,
I don't have a hook. I don't have an angle
on a book. She said, please stop sitting around, write
a book. So I called my agent, who hooked me
up with Eddie Friedfeld, who's my co author, and I
(35:45):
started telling him the stories. He had not heard any
of the stories, and he helped shape the book. And
it's a little bit of it's a lot of my stories,
but it's a little bit of a tutorial in how
to make a show or what's what's good for a show.
I talk about a little. I talked about the cameras
a little bit, not enough to bore Layman, but so
(36:05):
that that's what I did it, and I had a
great time doing it. The book is directed by James Burrows.
I want to tell you, and I love the opportunity
to say, is I'm glad you came in person. I'm
happy to be here. And I want to tell you
that the times I did that show with you, you
were so kind to me, and you create an environment
where it was fun. I was heartbroken when it was over,
(36:26):
and you're so graceful and gracious and smart, and it
really was just the joy of my life to do
those shows with you. Even of our pilot was the Challenger,
it blew up on the launch pad and we didn't
make it. But my book is about kindness. I mean,
you can see it. It flows through there because if
(36:47):
if you have a set where everybody is nice to
one another and everybody likes dare I say, loves one another,
that's going to come across the screen. You know, the
fish thinks from the head. So if you have a
star who's counting lines, that's not a happy experience. So
I don't work on shows like that. I work on
shows where I have great actors that can only make
(37:08):
me look better, and I treat them with the utmost kindness.
I never see Hyde Pierce that much in uh in life,
but I wanted to see him. I'm willing to bet
that you did Frasier and you've never done anything remotely
like that again, because why bother. It's never going to
be better than that. You did that great show with
(37:29):
a great cast, great writing, great directing. I mean anything anybody,
the group you might work with, it would be a letdown,
I would say a lot of times. You know, if
people are on a hit sitcom, they think they can
they think they can do it again. It's hard, you know,
it's hard. There's so many there's so many forces out
there that wants you to fail, and it's sad. But
(37:52):
I've had a great run and so have you young man. Well,
I'm gonna my last line is going to be what
would you know about failure? That's my line for you.
What would you know about failure? James Burrows, You've had
the least amount of failure of anybody, know. I've had failure,
maybe a tablespoonful in an ocean of success. So enough
of my tired metaphors. Thank you so much for doing this.
(38:14):
Thank you, Thank you, director James Burrows. This episode was
recorded at c DM Studios in New York City. Were
produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our
engineers Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich.
I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is brought to you
(38:37):
by iHeart Radio.
This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from My Heart Radio. You may not know the
name of my guest today, but you certainly know his work.
In fact, you've probably watched hours upon hours of it.
He's been called the Steven Spielberg of sitcom's, the Willie
Mays of directing, the sitcom Sorcerer. It's the legendary James Burrows.
(00:28):
Burrows is the director of some of the most popular
and acclaimed television shows in history, including Taxi, Cheers, Will
and Grace, Friends, and Frasier. In his five decades of work,
the eleven time Emmy winner has directed seventy five pilots
that went to series, including The Big Bang Theory and
(00:49):
Two and a Half Men, spanning over one thousand hours
of television. He's also the author of a memoir entitled
Directed by James Burrows, which we counts his incredible career.
Burrows also has an amazing pedigree. He's the son of
famed radio and theater director Abe Burrows, but Tony and
(01:11):
Politzer Prize winner whose credits include Guys and Dolls and
How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. I wanted
to know what it was like growing up with such
an accomplished and influential father. My parents were divorced, so
we live with our mom five blocks away from our dad.
So we'd see our dad probably twice a week, once,
(01:32):
you know, on a school day for dinner, and then
on a Sunday for maybe football or something like that.
So he was around in that way. But I al
would like to say that, you know, I was in
the family business. I didn't know anything else. The only
thing I knew is I didn't want to be in
that business. I didn't want to. I didn't want to
try to compete with a legend because he was a
(01:53):
legend in New York City, brought by music. Yeah, Broadway
musicals and Broadway plays. And my sister and I used
to go when we were thirteen and fourteen and meet
you know, Truman, Capodi and John Steinbeck and Comdon and
Green and called porter Una. I mean, all these they
were just older people. They I didn't know. I had
(02:13):
no idea what boring boring. I like to say my
dad taught me when I didn't know I was learning,
because he would trundle my sister and I off to
rehearsals occasionally, and we would sit in the audience because
we're gonna have dinner with him. We would come like
four o'clock and we sit in the house and see
him working on stage or a rehearsal hall, and we
(02:35):
didn't I didn't understand what he did at all. But again,
it was a lot of osmosis at work, latent learning,
the latent learning, Yeah, it's in there, and then he
winning the back seat with your sister going no, Dad,
I got a horse right here. His name is It's
a little dough. Put them in there. No, I never
(02:55):
did that. I never remember time did I did. When
I after college and graduate school, I worked with him
as a stage manager, so I would inject a couple
of what I thought were funny things, and he was
incredibly tolerant of me. I think one of them made
it in one of his plays. But that was it.
(03:16):
But isn't it funny how in your life it all
loops around in a way. Because I wanted to ask
you a question about the nature of casts who have
roots in the theater and those that don't. A lot
of theater roots with Kelsey and Hyde Pierce and with
the Will and grace cast. Isn't it funny? In the
life of Jimmy Burrows? Did we come back to this,
(03:39):
which is Megan mollal mean, Megan does how to succeed
with Matthew A long long time ago? Your dad, I
went to see it, of course, I said, they playhouse.
I thought to where I saw it. I was with dad,
my wife and then my sister's late husband. We're in
a motor home and a driver and drove it down
and drove drove down Illahoya and it was it was one. Yeah,
(04:02):
it was wonderful. But then that leads me to I
want to get back to your schooling. Why go from
it was political science? And what were you studying at government?
Studying government? And then you go and you get a
master's degree in theater. You know, you're in the Yale
drama program. Why are you trying to run away from
the family business. I was trying to run away from
the draft. You know it was it was Vietnam wartime,
(04:23):
and uh, you're probably too young. A lot of us
didn't believe in the war and that particular one. And
after Oberlin I got my draft notice, I decided to
try and postpone it. As long as I could. So
I went to the Yale School of Drama, where I
was exposed to all these you know, because if you're
(04:44):
in there, you have to take a course in directing, acting, playwrighting,
scenic design, stage manager, all these courses. And I went
and had a class in directing with Nico Sakaropolis, who
who went on to run The Williams. And he kind
of in my eyes to exactly what a director does.
Because I knew I was an actor, I knew I
couldn't write plays, so I, you know, I got to
(05:07):
direct a couple of small scenes. I think I did.
I got the horse right here with a couple of students.
I staged that and and then when I got out,
I still had to take a physical for the Army,
and fortunately I was. They didn't want me, I was.
I guess I was too funny, you know, So I
can't have that, I know, God, No, we need discipline.
(05:30):
And then I started stage managing because as a stage
manager you direct the understudies. So I got more and
more practice in doing that, and then I would do
summer stock productions of The Odd Couple with Stubby k
and Arnold Stangby k who was in the original original
Guys and Dolls, and you know productions of Never Too
(05:51):
Late with Bob Cummings. But let me let me just
say that street Car on Broadway. I considered that one
of the great years on Broadway because Kate Burton's doing
Jex Women with Alan Alda and Guys and Telsa's I'm
Broadly with Nathan and I'll never forget the Banner. Although
we did run for a very long time, it was
in a huge success. This the banner all wrapped around
the canopy said this show will run forever. But I
(06:15):
went to see that show twice and Faith Prince. They
all made me cry. Walter Bobby playing that role and
singing rock in the boat and I love that show.
I cried. And Peter Gallaghter Galina Gallagher was sky Masters, Yeah,
it was a dear friend of mine. Yeah, and then
all of them, I mean, I love that show. That
was the most funny I've ever had watching a show
without the producers. I mean, I love Nathan, but then
(06:37):
Stubby k and you're and you're directing the understudies And
what did you think directing was back then? And how
has that changed over the years. Well for you, Directing
for me was back then you had a script that
never changed. So I was doing plays. You know, I
had a couple of plausas week marriage go around, so
(06:57):
there was a lot of nuance involved in it, a
lot of you know, I could put in physical bits
when I thought it would help. So I knew I
had that creative sense. I did in uh ninety eight,
after you know I had in my career had taken off,
I did a theater production to the man who came
to Dinner with Mahoney because Mahony, Yeah, Mahoney was on
(07:18):
Frasier and he arranged for me to direct it at Steppenwolf,
and uh, I put in like four jokes, you know,
and George Calfman's daughter came to the show, and I was,
you know, I was concerned. I knew George. I knew
George through my dad and George Calsan's daughter. And at
the end she said, I liked your auditions. It was
(07:38):
so sweet. Usually they hated, but they were they were
big laughs. So but anyway, so when I was, you know,
doing summerstock and dinner thing, I was just trying. You
had to get a play up on its feet in
a week. So there was a lot of rapid stuff.
So I found myself people who could think, Yeah, I
found myself more dinner theaters wanted me and or regional
(08:01):
theorist Coast, East Coast. You know, television is a writer's
medium too, as in Broadway. Broadway, the playwright is paramount
in in what I do, the writers are paramount. But
I have my time along with the actors. As you know,
I've directed you a few times, and that's the time
when my creative juices come out, and I don't want
(08:23):
a guy behind me judging, you know what I do.
What I say, I'll move, you know, say the line
this way before I can see it and say, well,
maybe that doesn't work. I don't want a guy behind
me saying no, don't prompt, preempting me. That's totally debilitating
for a director who would preempt you. Well, I mean
the writers, No, I know, but when the writers come down,
(08:46):
they see our work, you know, they see what we've passed. Yes,
I get a pass, and you know I'll never forget.
In a taxi episode I was directing, I had him move.
I had this move that I thought it was funny,
and I don't remember who did it, but the actor
executed it. And then all of a sudden the writer
(09:08):
turned around to me and said, what the funk was that?
And so we went on with rehearsal, and after I
took him aside and I said, if I'm not allowed
to fail, I'll give you nine good things, but one
may be bad. But you know, God forbid, he's over
my shoulder when I'm when I'm trying to do it
for myself. So you know, everything you think of, you
(09:31):
think is funny, it's not necessarily funny. In the end,
you have to, you know, try try it. Yeah, Well,
describe for me the seam of whatever length and whatever
different components takes you from directing Stubby k And we
were seeing stand ins to your first four ways into Hollywood?
When does Hollywood become your future? In nineteen sixty six,
(09:57):
my first job on Broadway was as the assistant to
the assistant stage manager on the Broadway production of Breakfast
at Tiffany's, a musical that my dad wrote based on
Breakfast at Tiffany's. And so as the assistant to the
assistant I was in charge of the actors from Hollywood
(10:18):
who were going to be in the show. Mary Tyler, Moore,
Richard Chamberlain, Laura Petrie and Dr Kildare, We're going to
be in the production. And it was not my dad's
best work at all. It was you know, he went
into rehearsal with one act and we opened in Philadelphia
(10:39):
and they had a huge advance sale because of Dr
Kildare and Laura Petrie, and then it was Chamberlain, Dick Chamberlain. Yeah,
and so David Merrick didn't like the show, so he
replaced my dad with Edward Albe. Wow. Wow, an obvious choice.
(11:01):
Let's have Dick chamber and Mary Tyler. We'll cool each
other's eyes out. Well, they're swimming bobbles of vodka. Yeah,
I'm sure you wanted George and Martha, you know. So
then Mark didn't want to go back out of town
with the show, so we played previews and Edward did
stuff to help the production by putting in Holly's miscarriage.
(11:22):
This is a Broadway musical. It was just horrible. And
the audience when we opened in New York for previous
food and every time Mary would come off stage, I
would be there and she would wrap her arms around
me and start crying. She was so devastated by the
audience reaction. And once they night came, Mary closed the show.
(11:44):
I sat with Mary at Sartie's. We had an awake
at Sarti's till Grant Tinker, her husband arrived, and they
went off, and then I went to Summer Stock and everything.
And then in ninety three I was watching television on
US Saturday night after directing Joan Fontaine in Forty Carrots,
(12:06):
and I turned on the television. There was a Mary
Tyler Moore show and I hadn't seen it before, I
hadn't registered with me before, but I noticed they were
doing a play. There's a multi camera sitcom, which you know,
it's a it's a play that's filmed. It's proscenium, proscenium,
everything like that. And I said, wow, they're doing twenty
five minutes in a week and I'm doing two hours
(12:26):
in a week. I think I can do that. So
I wrote a letter to Mary Tyler Moore because I
didn't know Grant that well. And about two weeks later
I got a letter from Grant Inker saying, we have
four multi camera sitcoms. We are very interested in theatrical directors.
Would you come out and do one show that was
(12:47):
February of I said, great, maybe I was going to
do a New Heart or a Rhoda or a Bob
Crane show or a Paul Sancho, but said, no, you're
gonna do a Mary Tyler Moore show. You know. So
I was thrust into this, into this endeavor I didn't know.
I had to learn. I had to come and observe
for three months to observe the technical aspectal you know,
(13:09):
I knew how to talk to actors and stuff like that, which,
even though it was much simpler back then, I'm sure, yeah,
it's still something that was foreign too. Yeah, totally foreign.
So I had to learn that. I learned that by
watching J Sandrich, who was my mentor and to me,
the king of Sitcom's describe that experience, meaning when you're
doing it and you've been around successful people, all the
cylinders are clicking on great shows, how to succeed your dad,
(13:31):
or these legendary musicals, things you've done, And when you
were there, did you sit there and go, yeah, I
like this. Okay, you're going to get a courtesy van.
Back to the telling your furnishing van for Mr. Your
first shot in television and you're on like the number
of top five show with the biggest people in television.
(13:53):
I know, I was scared out of my witch and
it was it was daunting. You know. You read the
script around it able as you know, before you rehearse,
and it was a C minus script and I said,
the grand tinker in a sea of Danish, I get
a bagel, you know. So I had the script and
in those days, you went down and immediately rehearsed and
(14:15):
while the writers were rewriting, so you were rehearsing stuff
on your feet, on your feet that you knew it
was going to change. So it was like rearranging chickchairs
on the Titanic. And Mary, Mary hated the script and
she would complain. I said, hopefully they'll make it better.
And it was called The Neighbors something like that because
it was Loue moves into Rhoda's apartment because Rhoda had
(14:37):
spun off to do her own show. So lou moves
into Rhoda's apartment, so that lou and Mary are living
together and they're working together. So that was the thrust
of the show. And uh, you know, I was just
treading water. I was, you know, five six of the
best actors on television, and I was a thirty four
year old Pisha who they probably didn't think I knew
(14:59):
what I was doing, and I didn't think I knew
what I was doing. But what happened? You said that
it was a C plus D script, But I invoked Chekhov,
I invoked Shakespeare just to try to enhance the piece
and make the piece better. How so, well, in the
last scene, when Lou figures it's time to move out,
I had his two suitcases there, and I said to
(15:19):
Marry into ed, sit on those suitcases and reminisce like
you're in the cherry orchard and you're leaving the cherry orchard.
So they did. And you know, I tried to put
in some funny stuff, but I never I played by
the rules of that show. If you're going in as
a guest director on a show, you gotta play by
(15:41):
the rules of that show, you know, you just because everybody, yeah,
you do. And so I I did that. And just
before the show was shot, I was walking to back
to my dressing room and Mary came out of her
trailer and she stopped me and she said, Jim, we
feel our investment and you has worked out. Oh my god,
(16:04):
I wept. I went back. I wept, And the next
day I had called from the New Heart Show, from
the Paul Sanchow, from Bob Crane Show. They wanted me
to direct. So that literally was the birth of my
television career. Director James Burrows. If you enjoyed conversations with
(16:25):
accomplished directors, check out my episode with Cameron Crowe. Generally,
not every time, but generally a movie will have your spirit,
your the movie will have your signature somewhere. Even even
the movies where, like you know, Penny Marshall came in
at the last minute and replaced so and so it's
it's a Penny Marshall movie. The director's personality seeps in Hallelujah.
(16:50):
And I love playing with that. I love playing with
like the sensibility and the feeling that the movie is
gonna give you. Music helps the relationship on the set,
Like when we've been able to work together, it's really
been wonderful to have like the environmental version of directing
where we all are together kind of vibing, and there
are relationships that are separate and the characters are part
(17:12):
of it and we're doing this thing together. I think
that feeling gets into the movie. Here the rest of
my conversation with Cameron Crowe in our archives at Here's
the Thing dot org. After the break, James Burrows tells
us about the casting kismet on Friends. I'm Alec Baldwin
(17:45):
and you're listening to Here's the Thing. The Emmy winning
series Cheers ran for eleven seasons, for a total of
two episodes, with James Burrows directing all but thirty five
of them. I wanted to know how he chooses to
stay with the show for the length of its run
as he did with Cheers. Well, it was at a
(18:08):
point where people felt confident enough for me to be
the permanent director. Did other shows have them, Yeah, I
think Paul Bogart did a lot of All in the Families,
and John Richard a lot of Dick Van Dyke shows,
and Jay did The Mary's but nobody did as many
as I did. And I did it. I did it
(18:29):
because I love the show. But the people who don't
know the first show that you do that of the
long runs which one taxi Taxi was created by the guys.
Two of the guys who created The Mary Tyler Moore Show.
Jim Brooks and Alan Burns created Mary Tyler Moore. Jim
Brooks and Ed Weinberger. Ed was a writer on the show,
Stan Daniels and Dave Davis Worthy four who created a
(18:50):
taxi and they asked me to be the permanent director.
So although once before I did Laverne and Shirley, I
directed some of them. And after about three shows, Gary
Marshall took me to do you remember ni Ovalas and Nicodell's,
the two restaurants that were on the paramount, and he said,
(19:10):
would you consider staying with the show? And I, and
all due respect to you, I I can't. It was
too it was too it was too crazy. My friend
was a writer on that show, Dan Olson, Oh my god,
Dana Wilson was my buddy and I hung out with
him and he told me, I don't want to pin
this on Olsen, but someone told me that they're corresponding managers.
(19:32):
Their respective managers would sit there with stop watches in time,
how long the tally light was on their client, who
got more camera time. There was such a kind of
a competitiveness between Penny and Penny, and so I was
on the show and the ship hit her fan. He
said it was really not. It was such a successful show,
and they just it was not anyway. So I told
Gary I didn't want to do do it, and then one
(19:53):
tact she came along and I read that script and
they asked me to commit to it. I said, sure,
if I'm not mistaken Taxi. At that point, Danza went
on to do Who's the Boss after Taxi? Correct? So
you had a menagerie of actors, none of whom were
that famous on their own, you know what I mean.
De Vito, Lloyd, Judd Hirsch had a Broadway career, but
(20:15):
not a big TV or film Danza, Mary Lou Kaufman,
all of them, this is the show that made them
really famous, that took them to that next level. And
I was wondering, what's it like for you when you
work with a bunch of people. Do you see them?
I'm not asking you to disparage anybody, but would you
say people become big stars in these television shows, do
they change? Yeah? I mean without naming names, do you
see the cast change? The cast jelled for me? That
(20:39):
was again I talked about that as an interplanetary cast.
There are there are people. You know, Andy was a
comic and and the bravest comic I've ever seen in
my life. And Tony was a boxer, croner and a croner.
And so my job, as I talked about in the book,
(21:01):
is to create a homogeneous group of people who are
all in a lifeboat. Everybody has their own oars and
pulls it intoandem. And so it was that was my
first big show. And it was difficult on that show
because there were so many eccentricities. Andy Kaufman had day
(21:21):
night reversal and didn't come into one, but he had
a photographic memory, so he didn't you know, he knew
his part when he came in. You know, Jim Brooks,
the writer was off doing starting over that movie. He
was writing it, and so we had all these things
that you had to juggle, and so it was very
difficult for me. But I think there's some of my
(21:42):
best work. Some of the funniest shows I've ever did
are on war done on taxi. I think, what does
the yellow light mean? The Reverend Gym show when he
becomes a cabbyast goes down in history as maybe the
biggest laugh I've ever directed. And so I don't know
if they, Well, look who who would you think be
the movie star at that show? Danny DeVito. I had
(22:04):
a wonderful time on the show. I learned a lot
and it's the moment that I cemented my relationship with
the Charles brothers because the Charles brothers were producers on
that show. So they had a difficult task in coordinating
the writing because Jim wasn't around all the time and
when he came, he would say he wanted it this way,
and then Ed would see that and say, no, I
(22:24):
want it this way. So it was it was difficult.
It turned out to be a wonderful show. But Glenn
a Less had as difficult a time as I did,
and that's where we became really close because we had
the same agent, and he said, we have to do
our own show. I'm wondering, was there a difference for you? Again,
without disparaging anybody by any means, was there just a
(22:45):
difference for you with a theater based cast Kelsey, Hype,
Pierce and so forth, and the cast of Will and Grace,
all of them with theater. But I think Deb's de
deb was just on stage here, Shan's superstage worthy. I
wor ship him. I worship him. McCormick, Dost Theater and
Megan Dost Theater, and then other shows you've done where
(23:06):
there's nary a theater, Dennis and among the bunch. You know,
there's not many theater credits in the Friends cast a Swimmer, Swimmer,
he still one out of six looking Glass Theater. Yeah,
did you find it? So? Do you? You You had a
different language with those that had a theater background or no,
the same, No, I you know I would tell them
(23:27):
in the beginning, this is theater. It's it's an amalgam
of theater and film, but it's basically theater because you
have to tell the story to the fifty people watching
you that night, and so you tell the story to
them in theater, your reactions have to be bigger because
to reach the person in the balcony, you can't be subtle.
(23:50):
That's subtle in theater, you know, you have to have
to be a little bit exaggerated. I told him, I
will be on you if you're reactions are too big,
because this is going out on a television screen, so
it the irractions can't be as big as they are
in the theater, but they have to be enough to
get a laugh, not only with this audience but with
(24:11):
the audience at home. So the kids were pretty good
on On Friends. You know, Lisa was in the ground,
links Jen was amazing, and they just embraced and inhabited
those characters like it was it was a gold mine. Well,
I don't think we ever read anybody together. So when
I got up to six of them down on stage
(24:33):
and they just fit like a glove, it was, oh
my god. They were since they were sinked, and I said,
this is crazy. When I did William Grace, you could
see that they were so welcoming to your package is leaking.
You've stole my life. I'm standing there and he says,
and she says goodbye to me. We closed the drum
(24:54):
and love with Megan. He says, your package is leaking. Said,
what can I say? I like her because you brought
her ice I brought the ice cream, which was your
package is dripping. Whatever. You know better than I do.
So when I do that show, they were so welcoming
and they were so sweet when I did will and
Grace because they were just so charming, and Megan was
(25:15):
the one who I always say the same line Megan
was the one who helped to at least in part,
broke er my deal with thirty Rock because Megan said,
you listen as she said, it's fun. I mean I
never dreamed of doing a sitcom. And when I did
thirty Rock, I said, I'll do six episodes recurring and
that's it. And uh, they twisted my arm or whatever
to do it and and SLRN I worship. But when
(25:37):
I came to do the show, you see where when
it comes to tape time much and it comes down
Cohen behind him much because a lot to say. He
has a lot of lines and jokes and things that
his notes and so forth. Is every show the same
that way or all the show is different in terms
of the input of the top people. No, I on
any show I do, anybody can say anything about anything.
(25:59):
Check your ego at the door. So I mean, if
you had a problem on Will and Grace, you you
know you would come to me and say a problem.
Max is Max. He's genius. You know you deal with
him because he's so valuable to the show. And one
of the one of your gifts is that you play
in the same intensity as the four of them, and
(26:20):
with it you know we had a lot. We had
over two hundred and fifty guest stars on Will and Grace,
and invariably they would come in like they were a star,
and I would take them aside and say, when you
rehearsing with this cast, in rehearsal, they do of what
(26:41):
they can do, and then when you get to the showtime,
it's a hundred to a hundred and fifty and if
you don't keep up, you're gonna be on the editing
room floor. So you you have your your on our show.
You agreed to her show. You gotta play by the
rules of the show, and I don't want you to disappear,
and you have or to come in. You know you
are happy to be there, happy to be there, also
(27:03):
larger than life, which is important on that show because
that show is a fair to keep up literally in
figurative director James Burrows. If you're enjoying this conversation, be
sure to subscribe to Here's the Thing on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(27:26):
When we come back, James Burrows tells us why his
new book is ultimately about kindness. I'm Alec Baldwin and
this is Here's the thing from my heart Radio. I
(27:49):
was lucky enough to work with director James Burrows as
a guest star on Will and Grace. We also work
together on a pilot starring myself and Kelsey Grammar that
did not get picked for Serious. With burrows incredible track record,
I wanted to know if he has a sixth sense
about which shows will succeed and which won't when I
(28:11):
read them, I don't know. You know, When I read
some of these pilots, I thought they were okay and
I could maybe with a little smoke and mirrors, make
it go. A few of them I made go, but
they didn't last very long. But I try not to
do pilots that I don't think you're going to go.
But as to that pilot, I was shocked that the
(28:32):
network didn't. I don't know what was going on in
the ABC headquarters and watching the show, but you had
two monumental stars who played you know, it was Nol Coward,
it was it was Will and Grace. It was that
kind of intensity to your relationship that was exhilarating to
(28:55):
me and funny to the audience we had there, and
I wish I was shocked I don't know if there
were politics involved or what was involved, but they sure
don't have a show on ABC that's commensurate with that show. Now,
you have no doubt. And I'm not just saying this.
I loved working with you. Everybody loves working with you.
(29:18):
You say that J Sandrich, J Sanders never put two
people on a suitcase and starting the cherry orchard. I
doubt you say J. Sandrids is the king. He's not
the king. You're the king. And everybody who works with
you loves you. They love you, and you do this show.
And were you ever tempted to run out and do
movies and write scripts and and go into those other
(29:40):
cord or never? I was never a writer. I I
ruled that out. I did a pilot for Stephen Botco
in nine seventies seven called Every Stray Dog and Kid
single camera pilot Our Jackie Earl Haley back then and uh,
Bruce White's Uh. I didn't no movies. I did a
(30:03):
movie called Partners. It was a movie. Aaron Russo came
to me after taxi and he said, I have this
movie that written by Francis vai Vert who wrote Lakaja Fall,
and it was about. It was, it was present and
the fact that it was about a straight cop and
a gay cop. This Ryan O'Neill, Yeah, Ryan O'Neill and
(30:23):
John heard. Can you believe I remember that. I can't
believe that, Ryan O'Neill, and it was they go undercover
to solve a murder and it tend to be a
gay couple and the problem, you know a lot of
the problems. You wanted Clan Eastwood in their part. You
wanted a guy, the most macho man in the world,
having to dress and change and leather, you know, that's
(30:45):
what you want. You wanted Charlie Bronson, somebody like that,
and we had at one point we had Peter Regert
to play the gay cop and wed Sam Elliott, who
would have been great, but we couldn't get it past
the studio, so we ended up with Ryan and John.
What's difficult for me in the movies is number one,
it takes two years to hear the reaction, and two,
(31:08):
it was tough for me in the comedy scenes. You
shoot a master and everybody's kind of funny. Then you
start to shoot the close up and the magic's gone.
I did a documentary where, um, what is his name?
Who's the famous actor that's married to Eva? On I
(31:31):
miss you? I do, sorry were I would have been
on your show. I would have stayed on that show
because I had so much fun. You know something. Let
me tell you. So, I'm sitting there and I was
so excited. I thought, my god. Kelsey Grammar calls it.
He goes, so, how's everything going. I mean, he's like
such a force of nature. How's everything going? I go,
(31:51):
it's going, okay, I said, I mean, we're gonna make
the deal. I mean, I'm not. My whole thing is
don't get too crazy. And um. He was from a
different school of negotiating because he was king of TV.
I His career in TV obviously eclipsed mine. He started big, big,
big successful shows. But he calls hip and he goes, uh,
what are you going in that? What are you asking for?
What are you going in that? And I go, well,
(32:11):
I thought I would kind of, like, you know, be
the good partner. And I keep the numbers low seasons
and one in seasons two, and if we get to
see so like I did in thirty Rock season four,
season five, we step it up. And then season five
and season six, I want to hear them crying all
the way from the studio. I want to we're gonna
backload all the money into season five and six, and
he goes, I'm coming in a blank and he named
some number that I was like, I was going to
(32:32):
fall off the chair. And I thought after that, I go, well,
of course you are. Of course you are. That's probably
what you got paid in the last season of your
last show. I mean, he was like this comedy on
the Mount Rushmore of TV comedy because I was always
a poll that we didn't pull that off. Uh, you
prompted me with here about you shoot the master, then
(32:52):
you go back and you do the close ups and
sold of gone. I did a film that was a
documentary about can and um in the tone. Ryan Gosling
has the most wonderful take on exactly what you said,
the Arthur Murray esque progression of shooting stuff where it's
like do it again, do it again. Now we're gonna
come in closer and do it again, and do it again,
(33:13):
but make it fresh and do the same thing you
did again close up, you know, mid shot, cowboy tight
e c U. And he said to me, it's just
like it's a fucking nightmare. But in his language, we
got a Gosling on film now. I'm assuming because you
are a legend in television comedy that you know. Lord
(33:34):
Michael said, networks the best. I said why. He said,
why it goes because it demands more of you. You
can't say funk on the network. You have to say
funk without saying funk. You can't go blue. So you've
got to be smarter, clever, better. And when I turn
on TV now and I'm on streaming service, as somebody says,
Susie was late for work today. Fuck, everybody laughs because
(33:56):
they're saying, oh my god, they said, fuck, you've never
gone to a streaming service. I did one show for
Chuck Laurie that was on with Kathy Bates called Disjointed.
She owned a pot shop and I think it lasted
twelve episodes something like that. I had a great had
a great time working with her. She's what a pro.
(34:17):
And but I'm sure you've been asked to come and
maybe they tried to seduce you to come and do.
They don't do a lot of three camera, multi camera shows,
but even single camera for them, I'm not good. I'm
I like, I like to get home early, as you
know that the multi camera schedule is the greatest in
the world. And you're talking about what Lauren I I
(34:38):
corroborate what he says because the euphemism is funnier than
the actual work. On Will and Grace, I mean Karen leaking, Yeah, yeah,
package is leaking or uh, you know, Karen had nine
different euphemisms for vagina. You know, so euphemism harder to
think of. It was it is funny your stuff? Why
(35:04):
write a book? Meaning it's like, doesn't your work speak
for itself when you wanted to write a book? Why?
I have all these stories that are that are in
the book and I tell them to you know, I
look for new friends so I can tell him the
stories because I have to held all my old friends
the same stories. And it was COVID. It was the
(35:25):
beginning of COVID, and my wife, Debbie came and said
to me, you got to write a book, what she
had been saying for the past ten years. And I said,
I don't have a hook. I don't have an angle
on a book. She said, please stop sitting around, write
a book. So I called my agent, who hooked me
up with Eddie Friedfeld, who's my co author, and I
(35:45):
started telling him the stories. He had not heard any
of the stories, and he helped shape the book. And
it's a little bit of it's a lot of my stories,
but it's a little bit of a tutorial in how
to make a show or what's what's good for a show.
I talk about a little. I talked about the cameras
a little bit, not enough to bore Layman, but so
(36:05):
that that's what I did it, and I had a
great time doing it. The book is directed by James Burrows.
I want to tell you, and I love the opportunity
to say, is I'm glad you came in person. I'm
happy to be here. And I want to tell you
that the times I did that show with you, you
were so kind to me, and you create an environment
where it was fun. I was heartbroken when it was over,
(36:26):
and you're so graceful and gracious and smart, and it
really was just the joy of my life to do
those shows with you. Even of our pilot was the Challenger,
it blew up on the launch pad and we didn't
make it. But my book is about kindness. I mean,
you can see it. It flows through there because if
(36:47):
if you have a set where everybody is nice to
one another and everybody likes dare I say, loves one another,
that's going to come across the screen. You know, the
fish thinks from the head. So if you have a
star who's counting lines, that's not a happy experience. So
I don't work on shows like that. I work on
shows where I have great actors that can only make
(37:08):
me look better, and I treat them with the utmost kindness.
I never see Hyde Pierce that much in uh in life,
but I wanted to see him. I'm willing to bet
that you did Frasier and you've never done anything remotely
like that again, because why bother. It's never going to
be better than that. You did that great show with
(37:29):
a great cast, great writing, great directing. I mean anything anybody,
the group you might work with, it would be a letdown,
I would say a lot of times. You know, if
people are on a hit sitcom, they think they can
they think they can do it again. It's hard, you know,
it's hard. There's so many there's so many forces out
there that wants you to fail, and it's sad. But
(37:52):
I've had a great run and so have you young man. Well,
I'm gonna my last line is going to be what
would you know about failure? That's my line for you.
What would you know about failure? James Burrows, You've had
the least amount of failure of anybody, know. I've had failure,
maybe a tablespoonful in an ocean of success. So enough
of my tired metaphors. Thank you so much for doing this.
(38:14):
Thank you, Thank you, director James Burrows. This episode was
recorded at c DM Studios in New York City. Were
produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our
engineers Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Daniel Gingrich.
I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing. Is brought to you
(38:37):
by iHeart Radio.
Host
Alec Baldwin
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