February 9, 2021 • 38 mins
In 2018, U.S. Representative Katie Porter (CA-45) was the first Democrat ever to be elected in her traditionally conservative Orange County district. Prompted to run by Trump’s 2016 win, Porter quickly made a name for herself with her tough questioning of CEOs and administration officials, often using a whiteboard to lay out the facts. Katie Porter’s no-nonsense approach comes in part from her upbringing in Iowa. During the farm crisis of the 1980s, she saw first-hand how her father, a third generation farmer turned community loan officer, helped to support their neighbors. She went on to study bankruptcy law under Elizabeth Warren at Harvard Law School and become a consumer protection attorney and a law professor. A single mom to three school-age children, Katie Porter tells Alec people often have often underestimated her - at their own peril.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today is United
States Congresswoman Katie Porter, a Democrat in her second term.
Porter represents California's district in Orange County, which is traditionally conservative.
She's a consumer protection attorney and a law professor. She
(00:26):
quickly developed a name for herself in her first term
with tough questioning of people testifying before Congress, often using
her famous white board to hold CEOs and political appointees accountable.
Katie Porter grew up on a farm in Iowa. During
the farmer crisis of the nineteen eighties. She broke with
(00:46):
family tradition of attending state school to go to Yale
and went on to Harvard Law School. She decided to
run for office after Trump's win in two thousand sixteen,
and became the first Democrat elected in her district. Katie
Porter is comfortable being a fish out of water. I
like to be challenged. UM. I like to learn, and
(01:08):
I think that was a huge part of, you know,
why I chose to to go, you know, off to
college far away from Iowa to kind of stretch myself. Um.
I loved being a professor. I was a professor here
at the University of California, Irvine, teaching business law horses,
and then really stretched myself when I ran for Congress.
And one of the great things about being in Congress
(01:28):
that I never hear anyone talking about, which makes me
kind of skeptical, frankly, is that the great thing about
this job is every minute you should be learning something,
whether that's listening to your constituents, whether that's a briefing
from about national security, you know, whether that's you know,
having a meeting with your staff. There's just so much
to learn to be able to do this job effectively.
(01:50):
And I like that. So in some ways it's very
much like being a professor. My job is to learn
stuff and then to help teach, and so in this case,
instead of teaching a classroom, I think about teaching the
American people. You graduated Harvard Law School one year two one,
So when you left there, where did you go from there?
Where did you first go out of school? So I
went to clerk for a federal judge in Little Rock, Arkansas.
(02:12):
He was a wonderful judge. And this won't surprise people,
there weren't a lot of other law clerks who wanted
to work on the bankruptcy cases. Um and so literally
I think I got to work on every single bankruptcy
opinion the entire Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, which stretches
from North Dakota down to Arkansas, worked on that year. Um.
And then I went off and I practiced. I took
(02:33):
the bar exam, and I practiced law in Portland, Oregon
for a couple of years. What led you to Portland
from Little Rock? My now ex husband is from their family. Yeah, family,
and you know, it was a good place to practice there.
And then decided that I wanted to become a law professor.
And I hadn't really gone to law school thinking maybe
(02:54):
I want to be a professor. I had thought about
getting a PhD. Um And at the time, the idea
of writing a book seemed really long to me, which
is funny because I've now written two law textbooks that
are like a thousand pages each. Um. But when I
got to law school, I was I really liked it.
I wasn't sure what I wanted to teach, what did
I love? Where did I wanted to spend my whole
(03:16):
career studying and then I took Elizabeth Warren's bankruptcy class,
and that was it. That was what I wanted to
spend my life working on. This is why you were
in law school. This is when I went to law school.
My third year in law school. Tell the story if
you would have you approached Warren after she was less
than cuddly towards you in class. Yeah. Yeah, So Elizabeth
was a really great professor. She called on students um,
(03:39):
and you had to have your homework done. You had
to be prepared if you showed up. And so I
was a rule follower. I did my homework. I sat
in the front row, which I thought would help her
overlook me, but it didn't really work out that way.
And so you know, one of the solutions to not
being called on is to raise your hand um. And
so she was asking a question and I raised my
(04:00):
end and I gave what I thought was a pretty
good answer, and I remember her turning to me, I'll
never forget I mean the hand yester, I can do
it today. She said, thank, miss Porter, thank And I
remember just wilting inside because I was thinking. I was
thinking so hard and I was coming up short um,
and I went to see her after that, and I said,
(04:22):
don't give up on me. I've never taken a course
like this before. I didn't take some of the there's
a couple kind of courses you often take, their introductory
to bankruptcy, and I just jumped into the deep end.
I was like, don't give up on me. I really
care about this stuff. And the reason I cared so
much about bankruptcy was growing up in Iowa in the
nineteen eighties during farm made and the tractor motorcades, and
(04:43):
watching the farming community where I grew up really struggle economically.
When I got to bankruptcy, I realized there are tools
in law and policy to help. Right now. When you
made that request of war, did she granted what she
were given? Take with you in the classroom? Did she
be going? I mean no, it actually was the opposite.
She came back to me even more because she knew
I really cared, like she knew that it mattered to me.
(05:06):
My message to her wasn't taken easy on me. It
was don't give up on me. And a lot of professors,
I mean I see this in witness rooms actually in hearings,
and people will ask a witness a question, and the
witness will stonewall give a nonsense and answer another question,
answer another question. And what my colleagues will do is
they'll just give up. They'll move on, they'll start giving
(05:28):
a speech. But just like in the classroom, when I
gave a wrong answer, Warren didn't say, oh well, let
me go find someone more cooperative. She told me think
she stuck with me as I was learning. So whenever
I hear someone, you know, they give a nonsense answer,
I'm not going anywhere. You said something interesting. When people
don't give a good answer, you know, I myself become
(05:51):
exhausted by the unwillingness of people to answer the questions
of the duly elected members of Congress. You are here,
and Congresswoman, poor order or anybody, you're not doing this
for your health. You're doing this on behalf of your
constituency of the American people. You're representing the American people,
and many of them are so smug and so arrogant
and won't answer your question. And I was wondering, do
(06:12):
you find that the authority of the Congress is weakened
in recent years because people feel like, what does it matter?
There's no teeth behind this. So I think that some
of the things that we've been able to do with
our hearings is actually restore a sense of accountability to this,
which is if you if I ask you a question
and you give me a nonsense answer, I'm not going
(06:34):
to pretend that what you said makes sense. I'm not
going to accept a wrong answer. If you're dodging, if
you're stonewalling, I'm going to try to get you to answer,
so you would think, I mean, it's sort of an
interesting to mean. I remember, like maybe the second or
third hearing I was at, I said, well, surely you know,
now everyone will come really prepared, like I won't stomp
anybody anymore because they'll know that you have to show
(06:55):
up and take me seriously. But you know, I've been
underestimated my whole life. At this point, I kind of
exploit that. And when does this still show up and
they're contemptuous or they're unprepared. I mean, the other day
Steve Minuchin said, well, are you a lawyer? Like, yes,
I am, Like since you mentioned it, but I think
(07:17):
that you know the goal is that these shouldn't be
performance art moments. They should be substantive and so you know.
The one thing I will say about the white board
is it's not about trying to go viral um. It's
not about an antic. It's not an antic. It is
a tool. And so sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't.
Sometimes I use other things I don't, you know. I
(07:40):
think it was maybe one of my staffers m when
we started. The first time we ever used it was
with Jamie Diamond. We were trying to go through the
budget of a worker, what a typical family would spend
and compare it to the salary and show that even
though he's paying more than minimum wage, people can't make
against meat On that she had two thousand, four hundred
(08:01):
twenty five dollars a month. She rents a one betterm apartment.
She and her daughters sleep together in the same room
in Irvine, California. That average one better apartment is going
to be sixteen hundred dollars. She spends one hundred dollars
on utilities, take away the seventeen hundred, and she has
net seven hundred twenty five dollars, four hundred dollars for
car expenses and gas net three. A low food budget
(08:23):
is four hundred dollars. That leaves her seventy seven dollars
in the red. She has a cricket cell phone, the
cheapest cell phone she can get for forty dollars. She's
in the red. A hundred seventeen dollars a month. She
has after school childcare because the bank is open during
normal business hours. That's for fifty a month. That takes
her down to negative five hundred and sixty seven dollars
per month. My question for you, Mr Diamond, is how
(08:44):
should she manage this budget shortfall while she's working full
time at your bank. And so the idea of the
white board was just instead of having all these numbers
what she spends on rent and food and rattling it
all off a million miles an hour and then he says,
I'm sorry to repeat that. I mean that is what
every the first refuge of every unprepared student in every
(09:05):
classroom in America is to ask the teacher, I'm sorry,
could you repeat the question. That's a courtroom tactic exactly, so,
especially in Congress, we only have five minutes. So if
someone says kid, you repeat that, and you've spent a
minute setting up the question. Your loss. So the idea
of the white board was to prevent him from being
able to, you know, sort of dodge and stall. And
(09:27):
you know, the interesting thing that he said is I'd
have to think about it. And I asked him, you
know again, and he said, I have to think about it.
And I asked him, well, what about this? And he said,
you have to think about it. And really, I hope
he is. I hope that moment did prompt him to think.
When I was doing Saturday Night Live for this long
run during Trump's thing, and we would be there and
(09:49):
I would pitch ideas, and I wanted your character to
have the white board everywhere, like you were with your
kids at the breakfast table. All right, let me show you,
and like you have the white board out of your
drawing everything for your children and and your boyfriend, and
you're at the gas station and whatever. Everywhere you go,
someone is handing your whiteboard. But I wonder, is there
a distinction between when you're questioning people, not only the
(10:10):
questions you ask, the way you ask them again, you
only have five minutes, but the way you anticipate they're
going to respond when their government administrators who are there
to protect an administration. Do you see there's a difference
between the two. When someone who is a political appointee
is before you, are they even worse in terms of
their caginus? No, not always. I mean I think that,
(10:30):
you know, it just depends on the witness. We try
to anticipate what the witness will say. In other words,
what's the obvious thing they're going to try to dodge with?
Where are they going to try to misdirect us? If
we we research the witnesses, sometimes we'll watch video clips
of them to try to understand kind of what they're like, um,
whether they get easily frustrated, whether they launch into long,
(10:52):
boring explanations. So I'm prepared to cut that off. But
I think one of the great myths is that, you know,
the Oversight Committee, where I'm so excited to be serving
again in this Congress, somehow is less important or less
exciting in a democratic administration, given that I'm a Democrat
than it was when you know, we were a Trump administration,
(11:12):
and you know, so opposite. I would just tell you
that these are both oversight stays important. I mean, once
we're enacting programs that I have supported and I have
voted for as a Democrat, I'm even more concerned that
these programs are working as intended. So the responsibility to
do good oversight. It's not a partisan thing. It's part
(11:34):
of effective government. Now, do you go back to your
office sometimes and watch yourself, watch clips of yourself, and
review what you've done to see how effective or ineffective
you think it might have been. Not usually, I mean
it's interesting after I question, and when I'm questioning, I
typically have no idea what anybody else around me is
doing or saying or reacting. It's it's just me and
(11:57):
that witness, right and just looking at him, you know.
I like, after I question Postmaster de Joy, oh my god,
Oh my god, I wasn't sure that I made the
point that I wanted to make. Now it turns out
I think I did. But when I got off, I
was just like, I don't think I did it. I
think I messed it up. So it's often, you know,
it's it's not about how I'm feeling. It's about whether
(12:18):
it's resonating with the American people. So it often, you know,
that's about how people react to it. So you can
make something that you think is great, you know, but
if other people don't find it moves them, then it
doesn't really work. What's going to happen with the joy?
Is it? A civil service thing? In his job is safe,
he can't be fired. Well, so he was appointed by
(12:38):
the Postal Board, which oversees the post Office, so they
can remove him, um, and I hope they do. There's
also the possibility that he does what so many people
have done you who came from the Trump administration, which
is that they quit um, which I certainly hope is
what happens. If he doesn't quit, then I helped the
Postal Board holds him accountable because they really a lot
(13:01):
of the problems that he created, um, you know, he
has not been able to fix. And the most revealing
part of that was when I asked him, I said,
will you keep saying you didn't do all these things?
Not my fault. Someone else did this. So I'm a
very last person to question. I think I am the
forty eight person to ask questions or something crazy like that.
(13:23):
So I asked him, well, you said you didn't do this,
who did? I'm with you, which seems like a pretty
obvious question, right, But nobody had asked something he should know,
Like all day long, people had just said why did
you do this, and the answer had been, well, I didn't,
And I asked him, well, who did it? And he
said he couldn't tell me, which tells you there was
an even bigger problem. I'm sorry that you don't have
(13:44):
the opportunity to remove him yourself, because I mean, he
basically turned the post office into an office max for
the Republican Party. But I want to get back to
something else, and that is so when you're down in
southern California and you go to Orange County, it was
primarily to take the teaching gicket. You see Irvine. If
you see Irvine is a campus inside the red, red
(14:04):
red part of California there in Orange County. What was
it like for you down there working there? Was Was
it a very conservative staff and an administration and faculty? No?
I mean, look, Irvine has changed a lot, and a
big part of the reason that Irvine and Orange County
has changed is in part the presence of the university. UM.
It's a large employer here. It attracts bright and interesting
(14:26):
and thoughtful people from all around the country and even
the world. UM. And so you know, my kids go
to school, UM in public school here, and they are
they have some very conservative classmates. I mean one of
my former cub Scouts. I was his cub Scout dead
leader for five years. That kid actually made phone calls
from my Republican opponent in eighteen So I don't know
(14:49):
what that says about my cub Scout skills. But you know, uh,
you know, actually there are a real diversity of opinion here.
But there are very progressive people here too. There are
people in the middle, there are Republicans. I like that diversity.
I represent roughly equal numbers of Republicans, Democrats, and no
party preference or independent voters. And what that means is,
(15:11):
on any given topic, I need to know how to
talk to people who will come at it from a
lot of different perspectives. And that is an incredible skill
to have, and I wish all of my colleagues had it. Frankly,
So when you won in it was it was close.
It was tight race, correct, very close. I lost. I
like to say I lost before I won. So on
(15:32):
election night you typically have three speeches in California, you
have um I won, I lost, and we don't know
because it often takes a while to count all the
mail ballots. And so I gave that I don't know
speech that we don't know. But everybody was crying and
telling me, good try. I got all these sympathy calls, UM,
(15:54):
and sympathy emails. You know, we love you anyway. Nice try, um.
You know you made a difference, even though you're you're
not going to make a difference kind of things. And
then slowly but surely, over the next couple of days,
took about seven days. I won. That's why would get
these messages back. Never mind to leave my hero. I
(16:14):
knew you could do it. Remember more faith than you. Yeah. Now,
in the second race, this last election, you won more handily. Correct.
I won by a couple six percent, I think, um,
And the first time it was four. So I made
up I made up a little bit of ground. Yeah.
Who was your opponent? In opponent was a man named
Greg Raths who's been on the city Council of Mission
(16:37):
v A. How here and what did he come after
you with? What was his pitch? It was just you know,
she is a Democrat. She's a Democrat, and this is
Orange County. Yeah, I mean just sort of like like
you know, I think there is an attitude that you know,
sort of people are entitled to have Republican representation here,
but they're entitled to is good representation, right, people who
(17:00):
listen to them, people who fight for them, people who
are not corrupt, and that can come in you know,
democratic or Republican forms. And so the fact that I
don't take corporate pack money, that I have grassroots funded,
I think that really helped me reach a lot of
those independent voters and even Republican voters who are really skeptical, um,
including younger Democratic voters who are really skeptical about whether
(17:21):
and people in Washington really worked for them. Congressperson Katie Porter,
I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to here's the thing
from my Heart Radio. If you like conversations about politics,
go to our archives from my live show with Nixon,
White House and Watergate figure John dene It's after listening
(17:43):
to that conversation, I let my fingers do the walking
in the criminal code to figure out what in the
world are we doing. And I discovered the obstruction statute,
and I discovered the conspiracy statute, and I realized we're
in a whole lot of trouble. Now. You might have
thought that for reaction would be to run for the Hills.
I mean, I had exactly the opposite reaction. That's when
(18:06):
I doubled down. That's when I try to make the
cover up work. Here more of my conversation with John
Deane in our archives at Here's the Thing dot org.
After the break, I talked to Katie Porter about what
surprised her when she got to Washington in early two
thousand nineteen. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to
(18:36):
Here's the Thing. I wanted to know how Katie Porter
won her seat. People people send me money, How much
do you spend? I spent six million dollars to raise
six million from individual contributory, spent six million UM and
I spent six million. TV is incredibly expensive here. I
have to advertise to all of Los Angeles UM and
(18:57):
all of Orange County UM, even though I just represent
a little part of a part of Orange County. But
you know, people will send five dollars, ten dollars, they'll
send notes with it. When you got there, what did
you think the job was going to be like? And
how what did you find out? It was? Really like?
I think one thing that surprised me, and I know
(19:17):
it's surprised some of my fellow colleagues is how much
I really loved doing the work in the district with
my constituents here in my home UM, and how much
I really didn't like being in Washington. Right. So I
ran for Congress because I wanted to make policy. I
wanted to make people's lives better, and I think I
(19:39):
associated that with things that happened in Washington. But it
turns out that a lot of the time you spend
in Washington is just scoring back and forth two votes
that are sometimes important but sometimes are really like, you know, meaningless,
frankly or almost meaningless. And be here in the community
was so rewarding. So you know, behind kind of the
(20:00):
stucco and the neatly trimmed hedges of Orange County are
amazing and interesting businesses and nonprofits and community organizations. So
some of the favorite things I've done are I toured UM,
a lightweight body armor manufacturer here in Irvine that I
had driven down that road a million times taking my
(20:21):
kids to the target and never known that right there
they are making body armor that keep men and women
safe UM, and they're working to design actually special armor
that better fits women's bodies UM. And so you know,
seeing those little parts and pockets of your community and
realizing just how amazing things are around you. You really
(20:42):
learned every nook and cranny of your district and what's
really going on there. I'm still learning. I absolutely love it.
And when you went to Washington, and you talk about
the importance of the work that you do within the district,
But when you went to Washington, what did you think
that was going to be like with your colleagues as
so forre than what did it turn out to be.
I thought there'd be more substantive policy discussion among regular members.
(21:09):
House of Representatives is four hundred and thirty plus people,
so it's big. And so it turns out that a
lot of things are kind of decided before they get
to you, that they're decided by leadership, um that you know,
the relevant committee has kind of figured everything out before
it comes to you, and you're just in a situation
of yes or no on the vote. And I think
that's where I saw hearings as this great opportunity because
(21:33):
if you're not if you're a newcomer to Congress, you
don't have a lot of power, especially on the Democratic side.
But we have a strong seniority system. But one of
the few equal things about Congress is everybody gets five
minutes for their questioning. So I decided I was going
to use my five minutes better than anybody else, or
as well as I could, to the maximum of kind
(21:54):
of my ability. Um. And that's where I found the
greatest reward really in. And the thing that's warning for
me is it's not the answers that these witnesses give,
because they're often really bad answers. It's the American people
watch and they see that that lady is asking what
I've always wondered, Why do the drugs cost so much? Right?
(22:16):
Why does the drug keep getting more expensive? Do you
know what the price of Revelement was? I can look
it up, but I don't recall. I don't have it
in front of me. Four hundred and twelve per pile.
I would say approximately seven pill, but again I don't
have it in front of me seven nineteen per pill,
and today Revelement cost seven hundred and sixty three dollars
(22:42):
per pill. I'm curious did the drug get substantially more
effective in that time? Did cancer patients need fewer pills?
She's asking about me, And that's really for me than
the most rewarding part. You were a single mom where
you got divorced when you're your kids are how old now?
They're now fifteen, twelve, and nine. So you were a
single mom now for almost a decade. And do you
(23:05):
maintain because I know that we one of the things
you focus on is about all the women that are
losing jobs. We're losing a lot of women in the
workplace because of the COVID correct, absolutely huge issue. What
are some of the legislation you might or might not
propose to address that. So when I was elected in
the last Congress, at that time, I was the only
(23:26):
single mother of young children to serve. Since then, the
Republicans have elected one. But you know, this idea of
the single household, the single parent household, isn't well represented
in Washington, to put it mildly, So when we talk
about issues like child poverty, one of the reasons for
that is women, single women, single mom, single dads trying
(23:47):
to raise a family on one income. Um. What happens
financially to families when they get divorced um, it's you know,
it's very difficult. And so when we see right now,
what we know is about of women have left the
work or since the pandemic. A lot of those are
lost jobs. Some of them are women who are leaving
because they're putting a position to choose between taking care
(24:07):
of their kids who are out of school, remote learning
um or you know, having to go to work and
leave their kids home alone. This has long term implications
not just for women's economic opportunities and child poverty, but
also for our economy as a whole. If we're a
capitalist economy, we need our best and brightest doing the work,
(24:29):
competing for the jobs, and that means men and women,
people of different backgrounds, all having an opportunity to be
in the workplace. And in our country, we're losing a
lot of women out of the workforce and that's going
to have big implications for our global competitiveness. It's not
just a women's issue. We all benefit from a strong,
healthy economy. One of my favorite phrases, and I use
(24:50):
it all the time with my staff is by the ticket,
take the ride right. And this actually applies to capitalism too.
If we want to say, and you hear these people
who are uber capitalists, they're they're anti government, they're worried
about this they're they're throwing up this ridiculous specter of socialism. Well,
guess what inherent in capitalism is equal opportunity to compete.
(25:16):
And that's true about antitrust enforcement, but it also has
to be true about social mobility. It has to be
that that you're not allowing things like race discrimination to
taint who you promote in the marketplace. You're paying people
not because of the color of their skin, but because
of how good they are at their jobs. All these
things are perversions of capitalism, and we ought to be
standing up for them on that basis, as well as
(25:38):
the fact that they're morally apprehensible. Now, obviously, we have
a graduated income tax in this country. The more money
you make, the more you pay in taxes. Why isn't
the same principle applied to these trillion dollar COVID relief bills,
Meaning why are we giving a single penny to a
family that's making over two ud? Okay, great question. So
I want to push back on a couple of things.
(25:59):
One is you said we have a graduated income tax.
I want to push back on that and say, we
theoretically have a graduated income tax. Okay, that's what it
says on paper when you look it up in the
little back of the I R S booklet. If you
still do your taxes on paper, but in actuality, people
who earn a lot often pay a lower effective tax
rate because we have loopholes. We have problems in our
(26:21):
tax system, and so we need to close that gap
because a lot of people who are running around talking
about how they're in the highest tax bracket aren't paying
taxes in that higher bracket because of capital gains, because
of all kinds of other things. The other issue with
regard to COVID relief is, look, we definitely want to
focus the help where it is needed, but we also
(26:42):
cannot be so focused on making sure that nobody gets
any help that they don't need that we slowed the
whole thing down, and we ultimately allow people to die
and to suffer while we're waiting around, and there are
people in the very expensive areas where they were spending
all of their money need to make ends meet. Now
boom childcare, you have kids childcare. For my daughter Betsy,
(27:06):
when she went to the University of California Irvine, childcare
cost more than it would have for her to have
been an undergraduate at u c I childcare. One year
preschool was more than it would have been for her
to be an undergraduate. So, all of a sudden, when
you have all these kids out of school, people's expenses
are going up, even if their income may be stable.
(27:27):
So we have to think about the entire the entire
effect here. And here's the main thing I have to
say to people. COVID relief is the financially and fiscally
responsible thing to do. If we get this wrong, it
will set our economy back for a decade or more.
Little bit of depressure. Howard Dean was on the show
(27:47):
the other day and said the same thing. I said,
do you think we're running a risk by printing trillions
of dollars? He said, the problem will be if we
don't spend that money. Absolutely, we have to invest it wisely.
We have to make sure we're putting it into programs
that are working. We have to root out fraud, waste,
and abuse. Um. You know. So, I think it's ridiculous,
for example, that we passed a paycheck protection program, a
p p P program for small businesses that allowed Congress
(28:10):
members to get loans. That's nuts. That's a mistake in
the program, But our biggest risk here is not doing
enough and leaving people mired a long term poverty and hardship,
out of the workplace with atrophying skills, when other countries
are not making that same mistake. So obviously the current
(28:31):
senator there Padilla is an appointee interim because Harris and
other vice president. Do you think that that's his seat
to hold onto or does the congresswoman have other ideas
about her future in California politics. I'm really excited about
Alex Padilla representing me and my family UM in the Senate,
and I've contributed to his reelection campaign already. UM. You know,
(28:55):
I think he's gonna be a wonderful partner and a
really important voice for California. UM. He has an amazing
life story, he went to m I t he's incredibly smart.
So I think you can safely paint me as a
fan of Alex Pidia and somebody who's really excited about
working with him. He just got added to the Senate
Banking Committee, UM yesterday, so I told my staff, like,
(29:16):
call him up, let's start working on bills together. Do
you think that you have what it takes to serve
in the Senate. What do you think you're better off
where you are in the Congress. Oh, look, wherever you
put me, I'm gonna fight for the American people. I'm
gonna I mean, this is when I as a professor.
I became a professor to understand what was wrong with
our laws and how we could make it better. When
(29:37):
I'm in the House, that's what I'm thinking about, what's wrong,
how can we make it better. It's gonna be the
same thing whether I would be in the administration, Um,
whatever I go on to do after this, Um, you know,
these are the fundamental questions. The fundamental question that has
motivated my life is how do we achieve economic prosperity
for all Americans? And I'm going to keep asking that
(29:57):
question whatever job I'm in. H And you know, I
kind of mean, Look, the house is fun, it's scrappy. Um,
it's a little bit chaotic, you're right, Um, But you know,
whenever I've gone I've always tried to make the most
of what I've gotten. Um. And so you know, whatever
the future holds, I'm pretty sure I'm going to still
be asking tough questions. The Honorable Katie Porter, if you're
(30:20):
enjoying this conversation, be sure to subscribe to Here's the
Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, please leave
us a review. I really appreciate it. When we come back,
Katie Porter talks about why Trump must be convicted by
the Senate. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the
(30:49):
Thing from my Heart Radio. When protesters stormed the US
Capitol building on January six, Katie Porter wasn't far from
the insurrection. I was on the capital grounds. Um, in
my office, which is not in the Capital. Which house
building are you in? Long Worth? In Long Worth and
more as AOC has now memorialized it, the dunkin Donuts building,
(31:12):
which was actually a factor and why I picked that. Um,
it's very handy to be able to go get coffee
in the morning. But um, I was in my office
and Alexander Kasier Cortez. I passed her in the hallway
as I went into my office, and you know, she
kind of you know, she waved, and a few seconds
later she came back and knocked on the door and
said can I come in? And I said, of course,
And you know, she came inside, she was obviously very rattled.
(31:34):
There had been a bomb threat in her building. I
didn't know that at the time, UM. And so we
sheltered together, along with a couple of staffers for about
four or five hours, six hours in my office, barricaded
the doors, turned the lights off, pulled the windows, silenced
the phones, just in the cold, um and the dark,
you know, worried that what was going on at the
Capitol where there were cameras watching. What you can't see
(31:57):
is that there are underground tunnels connecting the Capital to
our office buildings. If the attackers had come down those tunnels,
we would not have known they were coming. Um. And
so we just stayed barricaded in there for hours and
didn't know what was happening. And when you look back
on it, now, what do you think should happen? Oh,
to protect us? I mean, look, we have to. We
have a real problem in this country with misinformation, with
(32:21):
with violence. UM. You know, our democracy is strong, but
it is not unshakable, UM. And this was this was
a powerful kind of I think earthquake a powerful shake,
um to our democratic principles. So I think we have
to reaffirm that it's okay to disagree, so okay to
have different ideas. I represent Range County. I represent a
lot of constituents that I disagree with. Um, that's okay,
(32:43):
that's healthy. But violence in a democracy is never okay.
You voted to impeach Trump, I did twice, and the
Senate is not going to convict you know, I think
they should convict him. I think that this is and
I think too many people are thinking about this just
from the native angle about Trump. But we have a
rule of law in this country, and part of that
(33:05):
rule of law is precedent. So what we are doing
here is saying this conduct was not acceptable and if
anyone and it's not who we are. So if you're
wondering future president whether you can act like President Trump did,
the answer is no, you will be impeached. This is illegal.
So we need to set that precedent and establish that boundary.
(33:27):
I would have bet you everything I own at the
onset of Trump's administration that it never would have ended
this way. I mean, it ends. His political legacy ends
on this note, one of destruction and hate and lawlessness
and stuff with which which defines you know, I've always
said that the government's purposes to do the greatest amount
(33:48):
of good for the greatest number of people. This is
not some concierge service to help wealthy Americans. And I'm wondering,
what's the change you'd like to see in the campaign
finance laws that will help clean that up. Yeah. No,
corporate pack money is a huge part of it. Citizens
United saying companies are are people, right, So, you know,
reversing Citizens United, stopping corporate pack contributions or at least
(34:11):
forcing corporations to disclose them to shareholders and justify how
this actually provides any value to the corporation. Um. I
think that's really important. I think campaign finance generally, you know,
I think small dollar contributions are great because you know,
five dollars a dollar, you know, volunteering your time, people
can feel themselves part of democracy, part of the process. Um.
(34:36):
But you know, until we clean that up, until we
clean up some of the corruption, it's going to be
really hard. I think it's the source of all of
the problems to this country, source of all of the problems.
Which committee do you want to You're on one exclusive committee.
I was at an exclusive committee lust Congress, which is
financial Services you're not there anymore. I'm not there anymore.
And now I'm on. I was on Financial services, and
then later in the year I got added to oversight
(34:57):
when they were openings. So now I'm on I could
doing on the Oversight Committee. I'm really excited about that.
I love that oversight UM and I like doing it
for all different kinds of areas, everything from you know,
Pentagon spending two pharmaceuticals to car seats UM, to civil
liberties UM. And then I'm now joined the Natural Resources Committee,
which has jurisdiction over public lands, over tribal lands, all
(35:20):
the drilling on public lands, UM, oceans and wildlife. So
you know, I said the other day, polluters, I have questions, UM.
So I'm really excited about that, and it's incredibly important
issue in California. It's important to our global competitiveness in
the future. The company, the economy, the nation that has
manufacturing jobs in the next decade will be the country
(35:43):
that figures out how to manufacture in a green way.
We need that to be us. Bobby Kennedy Jr. Used
to say, let's force them to bring their products to
market at their actual cost. What are the American people
really paying for a gallon of gas. You throw the
PCBs in the Hudson River and we have to clean
it up. That be a part of the cost of
your thing. The woman who studied bankruptcy law at Harvard
(36:03):
with Elizabeth Warrener, you saw you out of the Finance
committe anymore? Sure, I'm definitely sorry. I mean I asked
to serve because I wanted to. Um. I want to
continue working on those issues, and I hope there'll be
an opportunity for me to fill a vacancy in the future.
UM to get back to that committee. UM. You know,
I'm excited to be on the Economic and Consumer Protection
Subcommittee of Oversight. UM. I'm gonna keep doing a lot
(36:24):
of work on financial services issues from that. So absolutely
wish I were on. What happened? You know, they just
they had so many spots, they voted people on and off.
I was one of two people who didn't get it. Um,
you know, eight or ten people did get it. Other
people were chosen, other people were chosen. But you know what, like,
remember what I said about I've been underestimated a lot
(36:45):
when I went on. Now people are like, oh, well,
she can't go off financial services. Financial services where all
the hot committee action is. Trust me, when I went
on financial Services, everyone was like, oh my god, that's
the most boring committee. No one's gonna pay attention to you.
Let's go to Duncan Donut. Right. So wherever I go,
I'm going to try to engage the American people. And
I don't think there is a bad committee in Congress.
(37:07):
These are all important. Well let me just say, I
really mean this. People who really are so disheartened. I
mean they're crushed and demoralized by the inefficiency of the
American government. They've lost faith. And then along you come,
and all my friends who see you, you know what
they are. They're proud of you. They're so proud of
(37:30):
you because they get when you're there. You're not there
for the self aggrandizing. You're doing this because you care
and you take the job seriously and you and you're
finding and honing a way to use the job the
office as a tool. You're honing a tool to do
the work you want to do on behalf of the
American people. So thank you so much, thank you, oh absolutely,
(37:51):
thank you so much for having me us representative Katie Porter.
I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing is brought to you
by by Heart Radio. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie
donohue and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Thanks
for listening.
This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today is United
States Congresswoman Katie Porter, a Democrat in her second term.
Porter represents California's district in Orange County, which is traditionally conservative.
She's a consumer protection attorney and a law professor. She
(00:26):
quickly developed a name for herself in her first term
with tough questioning of people testifying before Congress, often using
her famous white board to hold CEOs and political appointees accountable.
Katie Porter grew up on a farm in Iowa. During
the farmer crisis of the nineteen eighties. She broke with
(00:46):
family tradition of attending state school to go to Yale
and went on to Harvard Law School. She decided to
run for office after Trump's win in two thousand sixteen,
and became the first Democrat elected in her district. Katie
Porter is comfortable being a fish out of water. I
like to be challenged. UM. I like to learn, and
(01:08):
I think that was a huge part of, you know,
why I chose to to go, you know, off to
college far away from Iowa to kind of stretch myself. Um.
I loved being a professor. I was a professor here
at the University of California, Irvine, teaching business law horses,
and then really stretched myself when I ran for Congress.
And one of the great things about being in Congress
(01:28):
that I never hear anyone talking about, which makes me
kind of skeptical, frankly, is that the great thing about
this job is every minute you should be learning something,
whether that's listening to your constituents, whether that's a briefing
from about national security, you know, whether that's you know,
having a meeting with your staff. There's just so much
to learn to be able to do this job effectively.
(01:50):
And I like that. So in some ways it's very
much like being a professor. My job is to learn
stuff and then to help teach, and so in this case,
instead of teaching a classroom, I think about teaching the
American people. You graduated Harvard Law School one year two one,
So when you left there, where did you go from there?
Where did you first go out of school? So I
went to clerk for a federal judge in Little Rock, Arkansas.
(02:12):
He was a wonderful judge. And this won't surprise people,
there weren't a lot of other law clerks who wanted
to work on the bankruptcy cases. Um and so literally
I think I got to work on every single bankruptcy
opinion the entire Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, which stretches
from North Dakota down to Arkansas, worked on that year. Um.
And then I went off and I practiced. I took
(02:33):
the bar exam, and I practiced law in Portland, Oregon
for a couple of years. What led you to Portland
from Little Rock? My now ex husband is from their family. Yeah, family,
and you know, it was a good place to practice there.
And then decided that I wanted to become a law professor.
And I hadn't really gone to law school thinking maybe
(02:54):
I want to be a professor. I had thought about
getting a PhD. Um And at the time, the idea
of writing a book seemed really long to me, which
is funny because I've now written two law textbooks that
are like a thousand pages each. Um. But when I
got to law school, I was I really liked it.
I wasn't sure what I wanted to teach, what did
I love? Where did I wanted to spend my whole
(03:16):
career studying and then I took Elizabeth Warren's bankruptcy class,
and that was it. That was what I wanted to
spend my life working on. This is why you were
in law school. This is when I went to law school.
My third year in law school. Tell the story if
you would have you approached Warren after she was less
than cuddly towards you in class. Yeah. Yeah, So Elizabeth
was a really great professor. She called on students um,
(03:39):
and you had to have your homework done. You had
to be prepared if you showed up. And so I
was a rule follower. I did my homework. I sat
in the front row, which I thought would help her
overlook me, but it didn't really work out that way.
And so you know, one of the solutions to not
being called on is to raise your hand um. And
so she was asking a question and I raised my
(04:00):
end and I gave what I thought was a pretty
good answer, and I remember her turning to me, I'll
never forget I mean the hand yester, I can do
it today. She said, thank, miss Porter, thank And I
remember just wilting inside because I was thinking. I was
thinking so hard and I was coming up short um,
and I went to see her after that, and I said,
(04:22):
don't give up on me. I've never taken a course
like this before. I didn't take some of the there's
a couple kind of courses you often take, their introductory
to bankruptcy, and I just jumped into the deep end.
I was like, don't give up on me. I really
care about this stuff. And the reason I cared so
much about bankruptcy was growing up in Iowa in the
nineteen eighties during farm made and the tractor motorcades, and
(04:43):
watching the farming community where I grew up really struggle economically.
When I got to bankruptcy, I realized there are tools
in law and policy to help. Right now. When you
made that request of war, did she granted what she
were given? Take with you in the classroom? Did she
be going? I mean no, it actually was the opposite.
She came back to me even more because she knew
I really cared, like she knew that it mattered to me.
(05:06):
My message to her wasn't taken easy on me. It
was don't give up on me. And a lot of professors,
I mean I see this in witness rooms actually in hearings,
and people will ask a witness a question, and the
witness will stonewall give a nonsense and answer another question,
answer another question. And what my colleagues will do is
they'll just give up. They'll move on, they'll start giving
(05:28):
a speech. But just like in the classroom, when I
gave a wrong answer, Warren didn't say, oh well, let
me go find someone more cooperative. She told me think
she stuck with me as I was learning. So whenever
I hear someone, you know, they give a nonsense answer,
I'm not going anywhere. You said something interesting. When people
don't give a good answer, you know, I myself become
(05:51):
exhausted by the unwillingness of people to answer the questions
of the duly elected members of Congress. You are here,
and Congresswoman, poor order or anybody, you're not doing this
for your health. You're doing this on behalf of your
constituency of the American people. You're representing the American people,
and many of them are so smug and so arrogant
and won't answer your question. And I was wondering, do
(06:12):
you find that the authority of the Congress is weakened
in recent years because people feel like, what does it matter?
There's no teeth behind this. So I think that some
of the things that we've been able to do with
our hearings is actually restore a sense of accountability to this,
which is if you if I ask you a question
and you give me a nonsense answer, I'm not going
(06:34):
to pretend that what you said makes sense. I'm not
going to accept a wrong answer. If you're dodging, if
you're stonewalling, I'm going to try to get you to answer,
so you would think, I mean, it's sort of an
interesting to mean. I remember, like maybe the second or
third hearing I was at, I said, well, surely you know,
now everyone will come really prepared, like I won't stomp
anybody anymore because they'll know that you have to show
(06:55):
up and take me seriously. But you know, I've been
underestimated my whole life. At this point, I kind of
exploit that. And when does this still show up and
they're contemptuous or they're unprepared. I mean, the other day
Steve Minuchin said, well, are you a lawyer? Like, yes,
I am, Like since you mentioned it, but I think
(07:17):
that you know the goal is that these shouldn't be
performance art moments. They should be substantive and so you know.
The one thing I will say about the white board
is it's not about trying to go viral um. It's
not about an antic. It's not an antic. It is
a tool. And so sometimes I use it, sometimes I don't.
Sometimes I use other things I don't, you know. I
(07:40):
think it was maybe one of my staffers m when
we started. The first time we ever used it was
with Jamie Diamond. We were trying to go through the
budget of a worker, what a typical family would spend
and compare it to the salary and show that even
though he's paying more than minimum wage, people can't make
against meat On that she had two thousand, four hundred
(08:01):
twenty five dollars a month. She rents a one betterm apartment.
She and her daughters sleep together in the same room
in Irvine, California. That average one better apartment is going
to be sixteen hundred dollars. She spends one hundred dollars
on utilities, take away the seventeen hundred, and she has
net seven hundred twenty five dollars, four hundred dollars for
car expenses and gas net three. A low food budget
(08:23):
is four hundred dollars. That leaves her seventy seven dollars
in the red. She has a cricket cell phone, the
cheapest cell phone she can get for forty dollars. She's
in the red. A hundred seventeen dollars a month. She
has after school childcare because the bank is open during
normal business hours. That's for fifty a month. That takes
her down to negative five hundred and sixty seven dollars
per month. My question for you, Mr Diamond, is how
(08:44):
should she manage this budget shortfall while she's working full
time at your bank. And so the idea of the
white board was just instead of having all these numbers
what she spends on rent and food and rattling it
all off a million miles an hour and then he says,
I'm sorry to repeat that. I mean that is what
every the first refuge of every unprepared student in every
(09:05):
classroom in America is to ask the teacher, I'm sorry,
could you repeat the question. That's a courtroom tactic exactly, so,
especially in Congress, we only have five minutes. So if
someone says kid, you repeat that, and you've spent a
minute setting up the question. Your loss. So the idea
of the white board was to prevent him from being
able to, you know, sort of dodge and stall. And
(09:27):
you know, the interesting thing that he said is I'd
have to think about it. And I asked him, you
know again, and he said, I have to think about it.
And I asked him, well, what about this? And he said,
you have to think about it. And really, I hope
he is. I hope that moment did prompt him to think.
When I was doing Saturday Night Live for this long
run during Trump's thing, and we would be there and
(09:49):
I would pitch ideas, and I wanted your character to
have the white board everywhere, like you were with your
kids at the breakfast table. All right, let me show you,
and like you have the white board out of your
drawing everything for your children and and your boyfriend, and
you're at the gas station and whatever. Everywhere you go,
someone is handing your whiteboard. But I wonder, is there
a distinction between when you're questioning people, not only the
(10:10):
questions you ask, the way you ask them again, you
only have five minutes, but the way you anticipate they're
going to respond when their government administrators who are there
to protect an administration. Do you see there's a difference
between the two. When someone who is a political appointee
is before you, are they even worse in terms of
their caginus? No, not always. I mean I think that,
(10:30):
you know, it just depends on the witness. We try
to anticipate what the witness will say. In other words,
what's the obvious thing they're going to try to dodge with?
Where are they going to try to misdirect us? If
we we research the witnesses, sometimes we'll watch video clips
of them to try to understand kind of what they're like, um,
whether they get easily frustrated, whether they launch into long,
(10:52):
boring explanations. So I'm prepared to cut that off. But
I think one of the great myths is that, you know,
the Oversight Committee, where I'm so excited to be serving
again in this Congress, somehow is less important or less
exciting in a democratic administration, given that I'm a Democrat
than it was when you know, we were a Trump administration,
(11:12):
and you know, so opposite. I would just tell you
that these are both oversight stays important. I mean, once
we're enacting programs that I have supported and I have
voted for as a Democrat, I'm even more concerned that
these programs are working as intended. So the responsibility to
do good oversight. It's not a partisan thing. It's part
(11:34):
of effective government. Now, do you go back to your
office sometimes and watch yourself, watch clips of yourself, and
review what you've done to see how effective or ineffective
you think it might have been. Not usually, I mean
it's interesting after I question, and when I'm questioning, I
typically have no idea what anybody else around me is
doing or saying or reacting. It's it's just me and
(11:57):
that witness, right and just looking at him, you know.
I like, after I question Postmaster de Joy, oh my god,
Oh my god, I wasn't sure that I made the
point that I wanted to make. Now it turns out
I think I did. But when I got off, I
was just like, I don't think I did it. I
think I messed it up. So it's often, you know,
it's it's not about how I'm feeling. It's about whether
(12:18):
it's resonating with the American people. So it often, you know,
that's about how people react to it. So you can
make something that you think is great, you know, but
if other people don't find it moves them, then it
doesn't really work. What's going to happen with the joy?
Is it? A civil service thing? In his job is safe,
he can't be fired. Well, so he was appointed by
(12:38):
the Postal Board, which oversees the post Office, so they
can remove him, um, and I hope they do. There's
also the possibility that he does what so many people
have done you who came from the Trump administration, which
is that they quit um, which I certainly hope is
what happens. If he doesn't quit, then I helped the
Postal Board holds him accountable because they really a lot
(13:01):
of the problems that he created, um, you know, he
has not been able to fix. And the most revealing
part of that was when I asked him, I said,
will you keep saying you didn't do all these things?
Not my fault. Someone else did this. So I'm a
very last person to question. I think I am the
forty eight person to ask questions or something crazy like that.
(13:23):
So I asked him, well, you said you didn't do this,
who did? I'm with you, which seems like a pretty
obvious question, right, But nobody had asked something he should know,
Like all day long, people had just said why did
you do this, and the answer had been, well, I didn't,
And I asked him, well, who did it? And he
said he couldn't tell me, which tells you there was
an even bigger problem. I'm sorry that you don't have
(13:44):
the opportunity to remove him yourself, because I mean, he
basically turned the post office into an office max for
the Republican Party. But I want to get back to
something else, and that is so when you're down in
southern California and you go to Orange County, it was
primarily to take the teaching gicket. You see Irvine. If
you see Irvine is a campus inside the red, red
(14:04):
red part of California there in Orange County. What was
it like for you down there working there? Was Was
it a very conservative staff and an administration and faculty? No?
I mean, look, Irvine has changed a lot, and a
big part of the reason that Irvine and Orange County
has changed is in part the presence of the university. UM.
It's a large employer here. It attracts bright and interesting
(14:26):
and thoughtful people from all around the country and even
the world. UM. And so you know, my kids go
to school, UM in public school here, and they are
they have some very conservative classmates. I mean one of
my former cub Scouts. I was his cub Scout dead
leader for five years. That kid actually made phone calls
from my Republican opponent in eighteen So I don't know
(14:49):
what that says about my cub Scout skills. But you know, uh,
you know, actually there are a real diversity of opinion here.
But there are very progressive people here too. There are
people in the middle, there are Republicans. I like that diversity.
I represent roughly equal numbers of Republicans, Democrats, and no
party preference or independent voters. And what that means is,
(15:11):
on any given topic, I need to know how to
talk to people who will come at it from a
lot of different perspectives. And that is an incredible skill
to have, and I wish all of my colleagues had it. Frankly,
So when you won in it was it was close.
It was tight race, correct, very close. I lost. I
like to say I lost before I won. So on
(15:32):
election night you typically have three speeches in California, you
have um I won, I lost, and we don't know
because it often takes a while to count all the
mail ballots. And so I gave that I don't know
speech that we don't know. But everybody was crying and
telling me, good try. I got all these sympathy calls, UM,
(15:54):
and sympathy emails. You know, we love you anyway. Nice try, um.
You know you made a difference, even though you're you're
not going to make a difference kind of things. And
then slowly but surely, over the next couple of days,
took about seven days. I won. That's why would get
these messages back. Never mind to leave my hero. I
(16:14):
knew you could do it. Remember more faith than you. Yeah. Now,
in the second race, this last election, you won more handily. Correct.
I won by a couple six percent, I think, um,
And the first time it was four. So I made
up I made up a little bit of ground. Yeah.
Who was your opponent? In opponent was a man named
Greg Raths who's been on the city Council of Mission
(16:37):
v A. How here and what did he come after
you with? What was his pitch? It was just you know,
she is a Democrat. She's a Democrat, and this is
Orange County. Yeah, I mean just sort of like like
you know, I think there is an attitude that you know,
sort of people are entitled to have Republican representation here,
but they're entitled to is good representation, right, people who
(17:00):
listen to them, people who fight for them, people who
are not corrupt, and that can come in you know,
democratic or Republican forms. And so the fact that I
don't take corporate pack money, that I have grassroots funded,
I think that really helped me reach a lot of
those independent voters and even Republican voters who are really skeptical, um,
including younger Democratic voters who are really skeptical about whether
(17:21):
and people in Washington really worked for them. Congressperson Katie Porter,
I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to here's the thing
from my Heart Radio. If you like conversations about politics,
go to our archives from my live show with Nixon,
White House and Watergate figure John dene It's after listening
(17:43):
to that conversation, I let my fingers do the walking
in the criminal code to figure out what in the
world are we doing. And I discovered the obstruction statute,
and I discovered the conspiracy statute, and I realized we're
in a whole lot of trouble. Now. You might have
thought that for reaction would be to run for the Hills.
I mean, I had exactly the opposite reaction. That's when
(18:06):
I doubled down. That's when I try to make the
cover up work. Here more of my conversation with John
Deane in our archives at Here's the Thing dot org.
After the break, I talked to Katie Porter about what
surprised her when she got to Washington in early two
thousand nineteen. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to
(18:36):
Here's the Thing. I wanted to know how Katie Porter
won her seat. People people send me money, How much
do you spend? I spent six million dollars to raise
six million from individual contributory, spent six million UM and
I spent six million. TV is incredibly expensive here. I
have to advertise to all of Los Angeles UM and
(18:57):
all of Orange County UM, even though I just represent
a little part of a part of Orange County. But
you know, people will send five dollars, ten dollars, they'll
send notes with it. When you got there, what did
you think the job was going to be like? And
how what did you find out? It was? Really like?
I think one thing that surprised me, and I know
(19:17):
it's surprised some of my fellow colleagues is how much
I really loved doing the work in the district with
my constituents here in my home UM, and how much
I really didn't like being in Washington. Right. So I
ran for Congress because I wanted to make policy. I
wanted to make people's lives better, and I think I
(19:39):
associated that with things that happened in Washington. But it
turns out that a lot of the time you spend
in Washington is just scoring back and forth two votes
that are sometimes important but sometimes are really like, you know, meaningless,
frankly or almost meaningless. And be here in the community
was so rewarding. So you know, behind kind of the
(20:00):
stucco and the neatly trimmed hedges of Orange County are
amazing and interesting businesses and nonprofits and community organizations. So
some of the favorite things I've done are I toured UM,
a lightweight body armor manufacturer here in Irvine that I
had driven down that road a million times taking my
(20:21):
kids to the target and never known that right there
they are making body armor that keep men and women
safe UM, and they're working to design actually special armor
that better fits women's bodies UM. And so you know,
seeing those little parts and pockets of your community and
realizing just how amazing things are around you. You really
(20:42):
learned every nook and cranny of your district and what's
really going on there. I'm still learning. I absolutely love it.
And when you went to Washington, and you talk about
the importance of the work that you do within the district,
But when you went to Washington, what did you think
that was going to be like with your colleagues as
so forre than what did it turn out to be.
I thought there'd be more substantive policy discussion among regular members.
(21:09):
House of Representatives is four hundred and thirty plus people,
so it's big. And so it turns out that a
lot of things are kind of decided before they get
to you, that they're decided by leadership, um that you know,
the relevant committee has kind of figured everything out before
it comes to you, and you're just in a situation
of yes or no on the vote. And I think
that's where I saw hearings as this great opportunity because
(21:33):
if you're not if you're a newcomer to Congress, you
don't have a lot of power, especially on the Democratic side.
But we have a strong seniority system. But one of
the few equal things about Congress is everybody gets five
minutes for their questioning. So I decided I was going
to use my five minutes better than anybody else, or
as well as I could, to the maximum of kind
(21:54):
of my ability. Um. And that's where I found the
greatest reward really in. And the thing that's warning for
me is it's not the answers that these witnesses give,
because they're often really bad answers. It's the American people
watch and they see that that lady is asking what
I've always wondered, Why do the drugs cost so much? Right?
(22:16):
Why does the drug keep getting more expensive? Do you
know what the price of Revelement was? I can look
it up, but I don't recall. I don't have it
in front of me. Four hundred and twelve per pile.
I would say approximately seven pill, but again I don't
have it in front of me seven nineteen per pill,
and today Revelement cost seven hundred and sixty three dollars
(22:42):
per pill. I'm curious did the drug get substantially more
effective in that time? Did cancer patients need fewer pills?
She's asking about me, And that's really for me than
the most rewarding part. You were a single mom where
you got divorced when you're your kids are how old now?
They're now fifteen, twelve, and nine. So you were a
single mom now for almost a decade. And do you
(23:05):
maintain because I know that we one of the things
you focus on is about all the women that are
losing jobs. We're losing a lot of women in the
workplace because of the COVID correct, absolutely huge issue. What
are some of the legislation you might or might not
propose to address that. So when I was elected in
the last Congress, at that time, I was the only
(23:26):
single mother of young children to serve. Since then, the
Republicans have elected one. But you know, this idea of
the single household, the single parent household, isn't well represented
in Washington, to put it mildly, So when we talk
about issues like child poverty, one of the reasons for
that is women, single women, single mom, single dads trying
(23:47):
to raise a family on one income. Um. What happens
financially to families when they get divorced um, it's you know,
it's very difficult. And so when we see right now,
what we know is about of women have left the
work or since the pandemic. A lot of those are
lost jobs. Some of them are women who are leaving
because they're putting a position to choose between taking care
(24:07):
of their kids who are out of school, remote learning
um or you know, having to go to work and
leave their kids home alone. This has long term implications
not just for women's economic opportunities and child poverty, but
also for our economy as a whole. If we're a
capitalist economy, we need our best and brightest doing the work,
(24:29):
competing for the jobs, and that means men and women,
people of different backgrounds, all having an opportunity to be
in the workplace. And in our country, we're losing a
lot of women out of the workforce and that's going
to have big implications for our global competitiveness. It's not
just a women's issue. We all benefit from a strong,
healthy economy. One of my favorite phrases, and I use
(24:50):
it all the time with my staff is by the ticket,
take the ride right. And this actually applies to capitalism too.
If we want to say, and you hear these people
who are uber capitalists, they're they're anti government, they're worried
about this they're they're throwing up this ridiculous specter of socialism. Well,
guess what inherent in capitalism is equal opportunity to compete.
(25:16):
And that's true about antitrust enforcement, but it also has
to be true about social mobility. It has to be
that that you're not allowing things like race discrimination to
taint who you promote in the marketplace. You're paying people
not because of the color of their skin, but because
of how good they are at their jobs. All these
things are perversions of capitalism, and we ought to be
standing up for them on that basis, as well as
(25:38):
the fact that they're morally apprehensible. Now, obviously, we have
a graduated income tax in this country. The more money
you make, the more you pay in taxes. Why isn't
the same principle applied to these trillion dollar COVID relief bills,
Meaning why are we giving a single penny to a
family that's making over two ud? Okay, great question. So
I want to push back on a couple of things.
(25:59):
One is you said we have a graduated income tax.
I want to push back on that and say, we
theoretically have a graduated income tax. Okay, that's what it
says on paper when you look it up in the
little back of the I R S booklet. If you
still do your taxes on paper, but in actuality, people
who earn a lot often pay a lower effective tax
rate because we have loopholes. We have problems in our
(26:21):
tax system, and so we need to close that gap
because a lot of people who are running around talking
about how they're in the highest tax bracket aren't paying
taxes in that higher bracket because of capital gains, because
of all kinds of other things. The other issue with
regard to COVID relief is, look, we definitely want to
focus the help where it is needed, but we also
(26:42):
cannot be so focused on making sure that nobody gets
any help that they don't need that we slowed the
whole thing down, and we ultimately allow people to die
and to suffer while we're waiting around, and there are
people in the very expensive areas where they were spending
all of their money need to make ends meet. Now
boom childcare, you have kids childcare. For my daughter Betsy,
(27:06):
when she went to the University of California Irvine, childcare
cost more than it would have for her to have
been an undergraduate at u c I childcare. One year
preschool was more than it would have been for her
to be an undergraduate. So, all of a sudden, when
you have all these kids out of school, people's expenses
are going up, even if their income may be stable.
(27:27):
So we have to think about the entire the entire
effect here. And here's the main thing I have to
say to people. COVID relief is the financially and fiscally
responsible thing to do. If we get this wrong, it
will set our economy back for a decade or more.
Little bit of depressure. Howard Dean was on the show
(27:47):
the other day and said the same thing. I said,
do you think we're running a risk by printing trillions
of dollars? He said, the problem will be if we
don't spend that money. Absolutely, we have to invest it wisely.
We have to make sure we're putting it into programs
that are working. We have to root out fraud, waste,
and abuse. Um. You know. So, I think it's ridiculous,
for example, that we passed a paycheck protection program, a
p p P program for small businesses that allowed Congress
(28:10):
members to get loans. That's nuts. That's a mistake in
the program, But our biggest risk here is not doing
enough and leaving people mired a long term poverty and hardship,
out of the workplace with atrophying skills, when other countries
are not making that same mistake. So obviously the current
(28:31):
senator there Padilla is an appointee interim because Harris and
other vice president. Do you think that that's his seat
to hold onto or does the congresswoman have other ideas
about her future in California politics. I'm really excited about
Alex Padilla representing me and my family UM in the Senate,
and I've contributed to his reelection campaign already. UM. You know,
(28:55):
I think he's gonna be a wonderful partner and a
really important voice for California. UM. He has an amazing
life story, he went to m I t he's incredibly smart.
So I think you can safely paint me as a
fan of Alex Pidia and somebody who's really excited about
working with him. He just got added to the Senate
Banking Committee, UM yesterday, so I told my staff, like,
(29:16):
call him up, let's start working on bills together. Do
you think that you have what it takes to serve
in the Senate. What do you think you're better off
where you are in the Congress. Oh, look, wherever you
put me, I'm gonna fight for the American people. I'm
gonna I mean, this is when I as a professor.
I became a professor to understand what was wrong with
our laws and how we could make it better. When
(29:37):
I'm in the House, that's what I'm thinking about, what's wrong,
how can we make it better. It's gonna be the
same thing whether I would be in the administration, Um,
whatever I go on to do after this, Um, you know,
these are the fundamental questions. The fundamental question that has
motivated my life is how do we achieve economic prosperity
for all Americans? And I'm going to keep asking that
(29:57):
question whatever job I'm in. H And you know, I
kind of mean, Look, the house is fun, it's scrappy. Um,
it's a little bit chaotic, you're right, Um, But you know,
whenever I've gone I've always tried to make the most
of what I've gotten. Um. And so you know, whatever
the future holds, I'm pretty sure I'm going to still
be asking tough questions. The Honorable Katie Porter, if you're
(30:20):
enjoying this conversation, be sure to subscribe to Here's the
Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, please leave
us a review. I really appreciate it. When we come back,
Katie Porter talks about why Trump must be convicted by
the Senate. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is Here's the
(30:49):
Thing from my Heart Radio. When protesters stormed the US
Capitol building on January six, Katie Porter wasn't far from
the insurrection. I was on the capital grounds. Um, in
my office, which is not in the Capital. Which house
building are you in? Long Worth? In Long Worth and
more as AOC has now memorialized it, the dunkin Donuts building,
(31:12):
which was actually a factor and why I picked that. Um,
it's very handy to be able to go get coffee
in the morning. But um, I was in my office
and Alexander Kasier Cortez. I passed her in the hallway
as I went into my office, and you know, she
kind of you know, she waved, and a few seconds
later she came back and knocked on the door and
said can I come in? And I said, of course,
And you know, she came inside, she was obviously very rattled.
(31:34):
There had been a bomb threat in her building. I
didn't know that at the time, UM. And so we
sheltered together, along with a couple of staffers for about
four or five hours, six hours in my office, barricaded
the doors, turned the lights off, pulled the windows, silenced
the phones, just in the cold, um and the dark,
you know, worried that what was going on at the
Capitol where there were cameras watching. What you can't see
(31:57):
is that there are underground tunnels connecting the Capital to
our office buildings. If the attackers had come down those tunnels,
we would not have known they were coming. Um. And
so we just stayed barricaded in there for hours and
didn't know what was happening. And when you look back
on it, now, what do you think should happen? Oh,
to protect us? I mean, look, we have to. We
have a real problem in this country with misinformation, with
(32:21):
with violence. UM. You know, our democracy is strong, but
it is not unshakable, UM. And this was this was
a powerful kind of I think earthquake a powerful shake,
um to our democratic principles. So I think we have
to reaffirm that it's okay to disagree, so okay to
have different ideas. I represent Range County. I represent a
lot of constituents that I disagree with. Um, that's okay,
(32:43):
that's healthy. But violence in a democracy is never okay.
You voted to impeach Trump, I did twice, and the
Senate is not going to convict you know, I think
they should convict him. I think that this is and
I think too many people are thinking about this just
from the native angle about Trump. But we have a
rule of law in this country, and part of that
(33:05):
rule of law is precedent. So what we are doing
here is saying this conduct was not acceptable and if
anyone and it's not who we are. So if you're
wondering future president whether you can act like President Trump did,
the answer is no, you will be impeached. This is illegal.
So we need to set that precedent and establish that boundary.
(33:27):
I would have bet you everything I own at the
onset of Trump's administration that it never would have ended
this way. I mean, it ends. His political legacy ends
on this note, one of destruction and hate and lawlessness
and stuff with which which defines you know, I've always
said that the government's purposes to do the greatest amount
(33:48):
of good for the greatest number of people. This is
not some concierge service to help wealthy Americans. And I'm wondering,
what's the change you'd like to see in the campaign
finance laws that will help clean that up. Yeah. No,
corporate pack money is a huge part of it. Citizens
United saying companies are are people, right, So, you know,
reversing Citizens United, stopping corporate pack contributions or at least
(34:11):
forcing corporations to disclose them to shareholders and justify how
this actually provides any value to the corporation. Um. I
think that's really important. I think campaign finance generally, you know,
I think small dollar contributions are great because you know,
five dollars a dollar, you know, volunteering your time, people
can feel themselves part of democracy, part of the process. Um.
(34:36):
But you know, until we clean that up, until we
clean up some of the corruption, it's going to be
really hard. I think it's the source of all of
the problems to this country, source of all of the problems.
Which committee do you want to You're on one exclusive committee.
I was at an exclusive committee lust Congress, which is
financial Services you're not there anymore. I'm not there anymore.
And now I'm on. I was on Financial services, and
then later in the year I got added to oversight
(34:57):
when they were openings. So now I'm on I could
doing on the Oversight Committee. I'm really excited about that.
I love that oversight UM and I like doing it
for all different kinds of areas, everything from you know,
Pentagon spending two pharmaceuticals to car seats UM, to civil
liberties UM. And then I'm now joined the Natural Resources Committee,
which has jurisdiction over public lands, over tribal lands, all
(35:20):
the drilling on public lands, UM, oceans and wildlife. So
you know, I said the other day, polluters, I have questions, UM.
So I'm really excited about that, and it's incredibly important
issue in California. It's important to our global competitiveness in
the future. The company, the economy, the nation that has
manufacturing jobs in the next decade will be the country
(35:43):
that figures out how to manufacture in a green way.
We need that to be us. Bobby Kennedy Jr. Used
to say, let's force them to bring their products to
market at their actual cost. What are the American people
really paying for a gallon of gas. You throw the
PCBs in the Hudson River and we have to clean
it up. That be a part of the cost of
your thing. The woman who studied bankruptcy law at Harvard
(36:03):
with Elizabeth Warrener, you saw you out of the Finance
committe anymore? Sure, I'm definitely sorry. I mean I asked
to serve because I wanted to. Um. I want to
continue working on those issues, and I hope there'll be
an opportunity for me to fill a vacancy in the future.
UM to get back to that committee. UM. You know,
I'm excited to be on the Economic and Consumer Protection
Subcommittee of Oversight. UM. I'm gonna keep doing a lot
(36:24):
of work on financial services issues from that. So absolutely
wish I were on. What happened? You know, they just
they had so many spots, they voted people on and off.
I was one of two people who didn't get it. Um,
you know, eight or ten people did get it. Other
people were chosen, other people were chosen. But you know what, like,
remember what I said about I've been underestimated a lot
(36:45):
when I went on. Now people are like, oh, well,
she can't go off financial services. Financial services where all
the hot committee action is. Trust me, when I went
on financial Services, everyone was like, oh my god, that's
the most boring committee. No one's gonna pay attention to you.
Let's go to Duncan Donut. Right. So wherever I go,
I'm going to try to engage the American people. And
I don't think there is a bad committee in Congress.
(37:07):
These are all important. Well let me just say, I
really mean this. People who really are so disheartened. I
mean they're crushed and demoralized by the inefficiency of the
American government. They've lost faith. And then along you come,
and all my friends who see you, you know what
they are. They're proud of you. They're so proud of
(37:30):
you because they get when you're there. You're not there
for the self aggrandizing. You're doing this because you care
and you take the job seriously and you and you're
finding and honing a way to use the job the
office as a tool. You're honing a tool to do
the work you want to do on behalf of the
American people. So thank you so much, thank you, oh absolutely,
(37:51):
thank you so much for having me us representative Katie Porter.
I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing is brought to you
by by Heart Radio. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie
donohue and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Thanks
for listening.
Host
Alec Baldwin
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