October 18, 2022 • 53 mins
Every other week this fall, we will be airing some of Alec’s favorite episodes from our archives. This week, we feature two supernovas of the musical world: acclaimed soprano Renée Fleming and the reigning virtuoso of the violin, Itzhak Perlman. Opera singer Renée Fleming, whose voice has been described as "double cream," remembers her beginnings in music, overcoming stage fright and her professional debut in this 2012 conversation. Fleming talks about the rigors of preparation for performing and the challenges of being heard, without amplification, over an orchestra. In this conversation from 2019, legendary violinist Itzhak Perlman speaks with Alec in front of a live audience at the NYU Skirball Center, discussing his difficult childhood, being stricken by polio in the war-torn early days of Israeli statehood -- and coming to the United States at 13 to play on the Ed Sullivan Show. Perlman also performs live with wife Toby Perlman and eight former students from the Perlman Music Program, a summer school on Shelter Island that provide a safe space for young musical geniuses to develop their talents, and themselves.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's
the Thing from My Heart Radio. Every other week this fall,
we will be airing a rebroadcast of some of my
favorite episodes from our archives. This week we're featuring two
super novas from the world of classical music, acclaimed soprano
Renee Fleming and the reigning virtuoso of the violin, Itzac Proman.
(00:25):
First my interview with Itzac Proman from two thousand nineteen.
(00:48):
This is it sac Perlman's exquisite vibrato on Bach's first
violin Sonata. He was mature by the time he made
this recording, thirty years into a career year that started
before his bar Mitzvah. Perlman doesn't like the word prodigy,
but it's hard to avoid. At three, he was practicing
scales on a toy violin. At four, he was studying
(01:12):
with a great master. At thirteen, he was whisked away
from his native Israel to the United States to be
on the Ed Sullivan Show. He won admission to Juilliard
that same year. From prodigy to master and finally national treasure.
(01:35):
For sixty years, his life was a blur of world tours,
and TV specials, playing for the Queen, and given a
place of honor on the program for Obama's inauguration. Yet
it's not Perlman had a difficult childhood, stricken by polio
(01:57):
in the war torn early days of israel statehood. Now
he gives back at every opportunity, including through the proman
music program founded by his wife Toby. The summer school
is located on idyllic Shelter Island, giving talented kids of
every background the chance to study with the world's greatest musicians.
(02:19):
You'll meet Toby and a couple of former students at
the end of the program. You'll even hear the students
play a virtuoso movement from Mendelssohn's Actete. The whole crew
joined me live on stage at the n y U
Screwball Center in Greenwich Village. I always ask people who
have a career similar to your career, if you understood
(02:40):
they have career similar to Mike. Well, not really, I
actually know there aren't many. There aren't many, but anybody
but anybody who was a young person who especially in
this world during where they cultivate them very young, and
in sports too, where they get these kids when they're
ten years old, and they kind of know that they're
heading to the NBA or the NFL or whatever. But
you're a very young child, and I'm wondering, do you
(03:05):
know what you're going through when you're a young child,
or you're too busy doing it to understand what you're
inside of when you were getting shot through? This rocket
did become the famous well when I would look when
I was young, Uh, my parents thought that I had
a good ear because I could repeat everything, you know,
by singing it. And then I said I want to
play the violin, and I think they told me that
(03:27):
I had a nice sound. So that was the, if
you want to call it, the unusual thing about the
way I played. I had a nice sound. You were
playing on what didn't you like? A toy violin? Or
But I just started with a toy, which I didn't like,
so I quit that, and then I was playing on something.
I don't remember what it was. It wasn't anything spectacular.
I started really when I was like almost five four
(03:49):
four and three quarters almost. You know, why what made
you do I want it? I wanted I like the sound.
I love the sound of the violin. I heard it
on the radio, and I said, that's what I want
to do. Simple, that's what I want to do. And
and there's no explanation. You know, everybody has a different
thing that they hear and it sort of grabs their imagination.
(04:09):
And violence sound was that and I think it was
hyper So it was pretty good for grabbing the imagination.
You know, at what age do you've started a little
tougher with them with their how old? Well, look, everybody
has their own sort of schedule of development. You know.
Sometimes you hear somebody at the age of twelve who
just sound basic, not very very good, but you hear
(04:32):
something there, and so you have to know what's to
say and what not to say. I'd like to just
insert that. You know, what's the great secret of a
good teacher is not only knowing what to say, but
knowing what not to say, and especially what not to say.
When somebody that has great gift and great musical musical
(04:52):
natural nous and those that have that great gifts in
that naturally leave them alone. Do you leave them alone? No? No,
you don't want to hurt them. No, it's not their feelings,
it's you don't want to fox around. You know, you
don't want to, you know, just let the natural ability
to natural talent develop and usually things get better as
(05:13):
you grow older, you know, without having to really nitpick
with everything. And that's that's I find is a danger,
because you know, when the teacher has such incredible talent
in front of them, you know, they want to give
you their old so then they become too picky. Leave
it alone, Just leave it alone. During what years did
you study with gold Guard? I studied with her from
(05:36):
the age of five until I was thirteen. You studied
with for eight years, eight years, and then you came
to the United States to do Sullivan when you were
thirteen years old. Then when you came to do so
I find that believing. When you came to do Sullivan
and you're thirteen years old, did you have any idea
who Sullivan was? That's what your first idea. It's a
weird exactly. No. No, I didn't know how how you
(06:00):
looked or anything. I just I just in Israel they
talked about because when we came to Israel to audition
a whole bunch of people to go on his show.
They said there they didn't call him Sullivan. They called
him Sullivan that's Sullivan. Sat Sullivan. Uh, that's Sullivan, that's Sullivan. Oh, television,
(06:24):
I said, okay, television. At the minute I heard television
said I mean so I so I auditioned, you know,
and then I was chosen. You know that there was
there was sent people over to audition musicians. Yes, Israel, Yes,
because he wanted at Sullivan wanted a show only of
the isra Eli pard of my accent, only of the
(06:44):
isra Eli people. So it was a variety great Jew
and coming back to the homeland and the kids. Ever, well,
there's some people thought his name was at Solomon, but
we changed to at Sullivan. It might have but but
you know, so the whole show was an Israeli variety show.
You've seen this show. You know he had everybody had
(07:04):
a monkey dancing, and then he had somebody playing the violin.
And so in this particular case, it was a pair
of folk singers that there was to know that we
didn't have topo and we didn't have them, but we
had a ballet dancer was fourteen. We had a coloratura
soprano from Yemen. I think I was in the Department
(07:26):
of Human Interest. Story or chubby story I don't know
what I was what I was, but I was cute,
I think, sorry, very cute. I was cute. Thank you
so much, Thank you so cute. I know when you
come over you've never been to the US before, your
mother comes with you. Yes, and you perform on Sullivan. Yes,
you remember what that was like to win the show.
(07:46):
It was slightly exciting. Uh, I didn't know, No, it
was it was very exciting, you know, and so I
I kind of played and it was very It was
over very quickly, you know, because I did the last
moment of the Medicine Concerto and they cut it down
to about I think two two minutes and forty five
(08:07):
seconds because that was it. And uh, and he introduced me.
He was a lovely gentleman, really very very nice. Is
that what happened after you did Sullivan? Uh? We went
on a tour in the US, The entire group that
did Sullivan. We went on a on a tour long months. Yeah,
about three or three or four months. Yeah. Yeah. And
(08:29):
at the end of the and at the end of
the tour, I went well, the main thing the challenge
was to get into the Juilliard School, and that was
one of it it was it was it was that a
plan for you to go to Juilliard. Yes, when you
were back in Israel, before Sullivan, before before Slight, it
was a dream to go to Juilliard, but Sullivan made it. Yes,
(08:50):
it was a very Juilliard. And there was a teacher
there who taught Julia that I heard about in Israel,
by name of Galamian. And so we said, one of
these days, maybe you'll study with glam and Ivan Glaman.
Yet his assistant at that time was Dorothy Delay, and
she came and heard me play, and she thought that
I had a good chance, had a good sound. I
(09:12):
had a good sound. You know that that was my
forte is the sound. But then you were about fourteen
thirting half fourteen run around the same sound. So what
was it like for you? You never lived in New York.
And again this idea of being like shot out of
a cannon to have the spectacular career, this big ticket career.
You want thirteen years old, you want Sullivan, You're touring
(09:33):
the country, You're gonna go to Juilliard. What was your
recollection that was it intimidating or you don't have time
to think about that? I didn't really think about it
because it wasn't really look it wasn't like a professional career.
It was a specialized career, you know, in other ways
to play for It was an Ed Sullivan concert. It
wasn't like I was playing a recital someplace, you know,
(09:53):
or I was making my debut in Carnegie Hall or
anything like that. It was a specialized kind of concerts,
you know. And used to play um also, I used
to play for Jewish benefits, you know, for the u
J And they knew about me, you know, because the
whole organization, the Jewish organization knew about this Sullivan program.
So they used some of the people for fundraising. And
(10:16):
I was, you know, sometimes I was I would be
called at the telephone. I would be hired to do
fifteen minutes or ten minutes at the end of the fundraising,
you know, and I would appear probably like eleven o'clock
at night, you know, and I would play the Nygun
Bay Block and the Flight of the Bumblebee and that
was it. And then I would leave and and I
would get I would get paid, you know, and it
(10:38):
was it was great, you know. I played while the
people were eating their desserts. And of kosher food and
things like that. It wasn't the same people liked. One night,
you do Flight of the Bumblebee, and somebody says he
was better at Jerry's bar mitzvah, so much better. I
never did bar mitzvah's. I never did bar mitzvahs, and
I didn't and I didn't do weddings dding no Vedic's absolutely.
(11:02):
You know, now, when you leave and you come to
to the United States, when you left for the Sullivan trip,
was it assumed you were going to go home? What
did you kind of know? You knew you weren't going home.
I knew that I was. I was going to stay.
And my dad stayed for about a year in Israel
and finished selling the apartment and thus in the business,
(11:23):
and then he came and joined us. I even remember,
you know, I did not see my dad for a year,
and the only way to get in touch was through letters.
And then a bit later on, you know, maybe after
about five, six, seven, eight months, we actually were able
to arrange for a long distance call from New York
(11:47):
to Tel Aviv, you know. And at that time, so
you're talking about nineteen fifty nine, so it was like
ten o'clock in the morning, you know, on the phone
rings and I hello, huh hello, that's the connection, you know,
(12:07):
that was the connection. And you know we had absolutely
and we had in our street where I lived, we
had no phone. So what we had was there was
a grocery store that had the telephone. So whoever want
to make a long distance called, we'll go to the
grocery store and we pick up. So that's that's what
you knew you were going to stay. Yes, yes, I
learned the language from watching TV and you know, listening
(12:31):
to the Yankee baseball. Spoken very little English and now hardly.
I took a class of English in Israel. I think
I failed. But it's amazing how quickly you learned, you know,
when you hear the language around you all the time,
and you were you went to Julian without family years.
Let's see, until I think nineteen or I was nineteen
(12:54):
or twenty, I think, because I because I still I
remember still uh doing answerts and having to go to class,
and you know sometimes I was late to a class
and I got hell to pay, you know, because I
just took a flight from Los Angeles. Give me a break,
you know, I don't know. But you didn't go an
English class. You know you have to be there. So
but I was, you know, so I did both things
(13:16):
for a while and then I graduated. And where do
you think your sound comes from? I don't know. I mean,
I really don't know. It's it's something that I hear.
You had polio old. I had pol when I was
four and three quarters. So do you find that music
become you imbue that with even more of your being
in your spirit because you were limited in the things
(13:37):
you could do as a child. I don't think. So
I'm getting everything wrong with you everything, but that's not it.
But but you're batting the los good. But you're doing good,
you know, I mean, because you know no, it's no, seriously,
I just I don't think so. I mean, I mean,
I couldn't say to you, well, let me see how
(13:58):
I'm playing without napolio, and now le's see how I'm
playing with the polio. I can't. I can't see what
I want. But I'm wondering if you that Okay, Sorry,
I mean giving you such a hard time. So I'm
so sorry. I mean, I knew this was coming. I've
been around you a few times, it's always it's always
an obstacle. Course, but anyway, the the but but you know,
(14:21):
what I'm saying is is that do you think the
spirit of the person is that relevant? No? I don't know.
I love to watch people who are famously like whether
it's there actors or or people in sports, and sort
of try and guess what kind of people they are
in private, you know, and uh, being good and being
(14:42):
a wonderful person and being a sort of an agreeable
sympathic a kind of person is not necessarily together. You know.
I remember my wife always, you know, sometimes we go
to a concert and we hear somebody who's absolutely amazing,
and I said to become on, let's go backstage and
say hello, and she said, I'd than not. You know,
I don't want to be disappointed all the way this
(15:04):
person plays. Just let's let's not do it. Let me
just relax and just enjoy it. Uh. You many many
people who conduct, and I'd love to get your opinion
of this. Many people who conduct are people who have
good careers as a soloist. They played typically the violino,
the piano, but they don't necessarily have great careers. And
then but someone taps them on the shoulders there, or
(15:26):
you keep time very well, and they moved them on. No.
But I mean, I mean, every every one that I
would talk to would say that. To me, I'd say, uh,
you know, doti this one they say. Somebody walked up
to me when I was like ten years old and said,
you keep time very well, and they moved them into
the conducting program. What happened, They moved into the viola section.
(15:50):
M that's our ad for the show. No, no, no, no,
I might study that. Viola jokes are no longer applicable
because the level of viola playing has really risen seriously,
so that you said should be that too. No, it's
really viola jokes. You know, used to be that the
level was a little bit below, but right now it's brilliant.
(16:10):
I mean, so many brilliant viola players. So it's not
but it's still funny, you know, violin legend. It's a
Pruman has a special place in his heart for the
(16:31):
New York Pilharmonic. He and then music director Alan Gilbert
teamed up for the Phil's opening Galla a few years ago.
Here films our guest soloist. It's a filman followed by
music directors an filmat Alan Delbert Gilbert found out he
got the job from the Phil's president, Zarin Meta, after
(16:52):
a particularly miserable bedtime for his toddlers. We had had
a torturous night and they'd finally fall on sleep, and
I got a call from Zarin Meta just after they
had fallen asleep, and he said, I'd like to invite
you to be our next music director. I said, my
kids just fell asleep. I can't talk to him. But
then I called him back and we had scene in
(17:13):
a movie where guys like more than being the music
director of the Philharmonica, I want my kids to go
to sleep. Clink totally. He will. We all know the
madness of that. The rest of my conversation with Conductor
Alan Gilbert at Here's the Thing dot Org coming up.
It sucked Perman on Alan and Gilbert's art, what makes
a great conductor? Plus his wife Toby Perlman on their
(17:35):
music school and the next generation of great masters, takes
on Mendelssohn and my questions. This is Alec Baldwin and
you were listening to Here's the Thing. It sacked. Perlman
didn't bring his famous Strata Varius. He says playing takes
more effort now than it used to. As you get older,
(17:56):
everything becomes more difficult than more demanding. Uh oh, are
you kidding me? But you know, if you do a
great piece, you can do it over and over again
and no matter how I mean for me. I mean
a perfect example is debatedpen Violent Concerto, which is not
getting any easier as you get older, because but it's not,
(18:17):
but it's very, very difficult when you're young as well.
It's I call it when when my students start the piece,
I say welcome to the lifetime journey, because that's what
it is. You know, you start to play and it's
pretty good, and then you played again, and you played
again and you grow up with it. So that's that's
what music is about. In the minute you think musically
(18:39):
like that, especially when you repeat something you're on the
right track. Instead of saying, oh, I have to do
that again, but you know, you have to look at
the music and you have to say, this is gonna
be yet another experience. You know, it's it's gonna be
one way or one or another way, but it's not
going to be a repetition of what I did a
(19:00):
week ago or a month ago. When you want to
sit down, assuming that you do this, I don't want
to assume. But when you want to listen to someone
else play the violin that you admire and you admire
their sound, give us an example of somebody you listen
to for pure tone. The first person that comes to
mind is Friz Chrysler. You know. You you listen to
(19:23):
old recordings of of his and you think, you know
those days that you know, there wasn't there wasn't the
great advancement in technology and so and that it's that
you you hear scratches, you hear the tone, and you say,
oh my god, that is something unbelievable, you know, or
(19:44):
you know, menu And had a fantastic sound. I mean,
everybody had a different kind of sound, but sometimes sounds
it's apples and oranges, you know. I mean, but that
the first person that that I hear of that kind
of sound is his. You conduct, yes, and the when?
When when did that they? And why it began? I
tell her it's very funny. It began with the Proman
Music program. Uh my wife who started this whole thing.
(20:08):
She said to me, we're going to have a string orchestra,
could you coach them? So I didn't think of myself
as a conductor. I thought myself as a coach. So
I picked up at pencil and conducted with the pencil,
you know, because if you conduct with the baton, you're
a conductor. With a pencil, you're more of a teacher,
you see that, I think. And anyway, so that's actually
when it started and I got some interesting again. I
(20:32):
got some nice sounds from the orchestra. Conducting I find
very mysterious, you know, because you can have four or
five conductors who are absolutely excellent, and each one gives
you a downbeat, and the orchestra will sound different with
each What do you attribute that to? I have no idea,
Thank god, what do you think makes a good conductor?
(20:53):
Oh well, obviously knowing the score and knowing all of
this things, but in the final analysis, there is a
mystery as to what makes somebody conductor phrase in the
orchestra play a certain way. I don't understand that. You know,
a great conductor should understand what he or she wants
to hear from the orchestra. So if I do, let's
(21:14):
say a bit of a Brahms symphony. What do you
say to a great orchestra who have performed that hundreds
of times? How do you get the orchestra to hear
pop up up and say, hey, that's really good stuff,
as as as opposed to I again, you know, So
(21:34):
that's that's that's the difference. Well, it's your it's my
own rendition of what I want, what I want to hear. Now,
tell everybody the idea. How did the school started? It
was Toby's idea, my wife Toby's idea. It was her
dream because we met in a school in a summer
program during during Juliard, sure, of course, and so she
(21:54):
started this whole thing, you know. And it was actually
twenty five years ago. So this are on fifth anniversary
for the program music program, and yes and uh and
it was it was basically for strings, and I think
we had kids come to our house in Long Island
(22:17):
and practice scales and you know, like at eight o'clock
in the morning, you said, Toby thought that was the
greatest alarm clock. And but we are now in Shelter Island.
The people, whether whether it's the young program or the
eighteen program, are they is it free of charge? And
you're raising money to pay for the whole people. We
(22:39):
never we never, we never refused, We never refused for
lack of funds. We give a lot of people scholarships
and scholarships and some uh some more some lessons so on.
Then some if they want to pay, they can pay.
But it really doesn't matter because, you know, the the
expense of the program is so that even if we
were to charge everybody equally, will still be in the
(23:03):
in the red severely, severely, believe me, severely. But it's great.
And the program has not grown on purpose. You know,
we started with about thirty eight thirty nine kids and
we still have thirty a thirty nine kids for the
little program. And it's and and it's amazing, it's crazy.
It's very difficult to describe unless you go there and
just give the experience. We have kids playing twice a
(23:26):
week works in progress we call it whips, you know,
where they try new pieces in front of an audience
and so on. It's it's it's great and I've been
listening during the summers. I don't play concerts. I just
teach there and with with other great, great faculty, and
we have you know, the philosophy of a lack once
you're in that program, a lack of competition between the kids.
(23:48):
You know, they all support each other, and for me,
that's so important. You know that that you know when
somebody plays well, they're truly happy for them, and when
somebody messes up, they go and they console them and
they really feel for them. It's it's it's a it's
a real Family's so important, it's a great father. It's
our problem's wife, Toby Proman, please come and join us, Toby,
(24:12):
and please welcome Rachel Lee Friday and Mandal Gooseby. No, no,
we're gonna bring out six other people who've been playing
the violin since they were eighteen months old. Let's get
them out here, and then when we're done performing, we're
gonna end. We're gonna end with this music. Can they come? Great?
(30:47):
That was itsa Proman, his wife and Proman Music program
founder Toby and their brilliant violin students Rachel Lee Priday
and Randal Gooseby. The Artists who made up the octet
were Rachel and Randall, plus Stellick Shan and Kenneth Renshaw
also on violin, Charley Smith and Joshua Chale on viola,
(31:08):
Nico Olarte Hayes and iach N Sue on cello. The
piece was the presto from Mendelssohn's arctet Opus twenty in
E flat major, recorded live at n y US Screwball
Center in Manhattan, and now My Conversation with Renee Fleming
from two thousand twelve. Renee Fleming has a powerful effect
(31:53):
on people. Conductor Sir George Shoalty described the opera singer's
voice as double cream. Garrison Keeler said she made his
nostrils twitch. New York chef Daniel Blue created a signature
dessert to honor her. But Renee Fleming is down to earth.
(32:15):
When the People's Diva, as she's been called, went to
Paris to rehearse Handle's Alcina, one of her favorite roles,
she spent most of the first week looking for playgrounds
for her two young daughters. Renee grew up in Rochester,
New York, where both her parents were high school music teachers.
During the first two years of her life, while in
(32:37):
her playpen, Renee would listen while her mother gave singing lessons.
A few years later, Renee organized a barbershop trio with
her younger sister and brother. One might say Renee Fleming
was born into music. Often refer to myself as an
indentured servant because we grew up with it. My parents
were both We all sang all the time. You take
(32:59):
a family cross country trip and be singing the road
signs and in harmony, and I thought everybody did that.
I just like, oh, well, this is what families do.
Your friends would get in the car with your family
and was like, with these crazy Flemings exactly singing to
the trees, missing to the exit signs. And we talked
about singing. Did you feel like this was your way
(33:19):
to communicate with your own parents? Well, interestingly, my dad
was a big jazz fan. My mother didn't bring music
home much at all. She wanted to break from it
when she came home. Other than when we performed, she
prepared us. You know. I think her idea was that
we would be the next one traps. You know. My father,
thank god, put the kabashion then and said, I don't
(33:40):
think so. Um. Let me guess your mother was the
competitive one. She she was very type AI, you know,
she's check and my my grandmother and my aunts were
all like this. I mean, they would come over and
they just the work ethic was unbelievable. I think I
work hard. No no, no, no no no. They used to
look at me and say, you know, and a you're
(34:00):
you really need to step it up. And I see
myself doing the same thing with my two daughters. So
I can't. I sort of can't help it. But the
music thing, you know, it was just so natural for us,
and my way of rebelling against it was to find
my own music. So I became a composer in middle school.
I started writing songs and then play piano, played piano,
(34:21):
I played guitar. And what kind of music did you write?
You're like Johnny Mitchell was sort of singer what we
call now singer songwriter, But I also wrote art songs
that I actually notated and wrote out that other people sang.
In that time, women weren't particularly encouraged to be composers.
In a different setting, that might have been the direction
(34:41):
I would have gone in, because I loved it and
it suited my temperament much better than performing. I was
so shy. Performing was so far away from whoeverly was
um A specific opera, the first opera if you can
recall because I remember the first movie I went to
see in a movie theater. What was the first opera
that you became a you know, I would say, gosh,
(35:08):
sure Angelica. This is what I remember because my mother
performed it and we were in the first row, and
this is the Eastman Theater. So first of all, I
was incredibly impressed by the theater, this massive chandelier, you know,
all the velvet. I mean I took up violin because
of the velvet in the case. So we were nothing
(35:30):
if not superficial. I guess, you know. I didn't really
know anything about the story, but she was crying, and
she was crying because she was singing about, you know,
her her dead baby and wanting to be joined with
her baby again, and looking at her three children in
front of her. Somehow, I think that really impressed me.
Did you ever imagine at that time, it in the
(35:50):
middle school and you're seeing this piece, that that would
be a path for you, that you would end up
where you are now. Gosh, No, nobody really asked kids
in those days, what do you want exactly? What would
you like to do? You just went along. I know
so many people in my generation who applied to three
colleges and never gave it much thought. And really, you know,
(36:14):
the way we raised children now is world's apart from
how we were raised. How do you feel, we said,
how do you feel? My parents couldn't give a damn
how I felt. No, Really, the only thing I thought
that I wanted to be was the president. So there
was i'd say, a colonel of ambition there in the
world I was in. It was, you know, doctor lawyer,
or a few of a more working class background, a
(36:36):
job that gave you a security and a pension, the
Long Island Railroad, the police department, the fire department. You know,
you learned very quickly to choose from the menu actor
was not on the menu that was submitted to me. Well,
I wanted to muse again, like my parents, So that's
another thing you did. You followed your parents because you
couldn't think of anything else to do. And then when
(36:58):
the singing became more interesting, and particularly jazz um, when
I really found myself through singing with it in a
club every weekend for two and a half years, then
my parents got nervous. Oh, it's so hard, it's too competitive.
What happens when you're you're writing songs, popular music. And
(37:20):
whenever you know where you said singer songwriter, whether it's
Carol King or what have you, and you're singing jazz
in nightclubs, in Rochester clubs, they're knowing Potsdam where I
went to undergraduate. Score is Potsdam a hotbed of jazz.
It's a college hotbed. And the drinking age was twenty one.
So yes, so we all spent a lot of time
(37:42):
in clubs. In this particular Algiers Pub had very high
quality jazz all the time. And the guys that I
worked with are are all working musicians. It was an
extraordinary education for me in many many ways. I mean,
that's how we learned. That's how I was able to
embrace performing. Because Illinois Jacked heard me sing in pot
(38:14):
Salmon said why don't you come on the road, but
come to New York and yes, it's great tenor saxophone
player was really going to put me on the map
as a jazz singer. And I just knew I didn't
have the courage. You could have been a popular singer.
You could have what where do you take the term
you're just saying, I'm going to operate? Is it now?
(38:34):
What happened. Had I grown up in New York City,
the singer songwriter thing might have opened. Doors might have opened.
I mean, I sang on television in high school winning
some talent show, literally playing a song that I wrote.
Making the decision to go on undergraduate school. That's sort
of solidified. Graduate school was where so you went from costom,
you went back home. Then I tried to pursue jazz,
(39:00):
and and that didn't work. Despite the fact that Eastman
had a phenomenal jazz department, I just couldn't get in.
I couldn't break in. So, you know, it was really
circumstance that pushed me towards classical music, and eventually I
really embraced it. And the other thing is I realized
it was much more suited to my temperament. I liked
being in the practice room. I liked studying. I enjoyed
(39:22):
wrestling with this instrument harder. I don't know that it
was harder, but it was more internal, kind of cerebral work.
You know. The interesting thing about jazz or anything popular,
you see, it was a very personality driven and I
just didn't have that. I think I do now. Interestingly,
I've come out of my shell. I mean when I
(39:43):
tell people I was extremely shy that nobody believes me
now to overcome yes, exactly. You know. I found a
lot of comedians to be extraordinarily serious and and draws
withdrawn sometimes, So yeah, I think sometimes we overcome things
by going after the very thing that really a loud
to us. So certainly my case that was it. I
would observe friends who were comfortable performing and I would
(40:07):
just try to act like them, So that was that worked.
It's an impersonation. Someone said to me, how do you
perform in the theater, like why is the theater so
soothing to you? And I say, because I know that
for two and a half hours and know exactly where
I'm going to be, exactly what I'm going to say,
exactly what you're going to say, and exactly how a
roomful of people are going to react to what I say.
(40:28):
And you don't feel performance pressure because I had terrible stage, right.
I do feel the pressure in rehearsal. I feel the
pressure to unearthed, to get down to it and get
the work done. And if I feel that we got
the work done, then it's orgasmic, you know, Like I
go out there in front of the only thing. I'm like, well,
(40:49):
how's everybody doing? You know, I'm like, really, I'm very happy, comfortable. Yeah,
I think they're gonna like it if I go out there.
And I'm a little bit hesitating because I'm thinking, I
don't think we got it. But you do two years
at Eastman and graduate degree there, then what happens? And
I went to Juilliard, Uh did postgrad. I could be
a doctor or a lawyer as long as I was
in Juilliard at the time the American Opera Center so
(41:13):
now the Juilliard Opera Center, I believe it was a
post graduate program. I was cast as Mozetta in Labo
m So I came here to sing a role. You
get free lessons, coaching, all of the support that we
couldn't otherwise afford. You know, you're a beginner. And I
worked in Rocket Feller Plaza for a law firm, pay
my rent and everything, and it was a great year.
(41:35):
It was a phenomenal year. Say to yourself, why didn't
I do this sooner? Yeah? Yes, because I was so happy,
and I was running around the city like a maniac,
so active. And then I took a full right grant
and studying in Germany and that was hard. How were
you there in Frankfort. It was important. It was probably
one of the most crucial pieces in my education because
(41:57):
it was so challenging. Number one challenging. I didn't speak
a word of German when I went there. I was
in the whole chield for musique and was not accepted
into the opera department, which was very disappointing to me
at the time. I cried the whole way there, literally
sobbing yes, And my boyfriend at the time, who became
my husband, said well, you know, don't not go because
(42:18):
of me, And I remember thinking, God, that would be
the furthest thing from my mind. I was so kind
of self possessed, but also clueless about the choices I
was making. That's why I wrote a book for young singers,
because if young singers are any one of them like
I was, you just don't know what you're getting into.
(42:39):
But I was also very lucky because that year turned
out to be a very formative experience. I mean, learning
to speak fluent German. How many languages do you speak fluent? Well,
I studied French in high school like many of us did.
That was, you know, the language. Paris is my second home,
and I sang there every year for a long time,
so my French is when I'm there, it picks up
again and it's but German is even more fluent and consistent.
(43:03):
During that year. You learned to speaking fluently in that
one year. You know, I love the study of learning
and of memory, because what I've discovered is that at
the end of that year my German was okay, was good,
you know. But every year, every time I go back,
it gets better and I don't have to speak a
word of German in between. So the brain, those neurons
keep firing. Then you come back to Julliard. Yes, then
(43:26):
I come back to Juilliard. I tried to stay in Germany.
I tried to stay there and get work. No one
would have me, so I came back in my career
started here. Then, how well, I had a rough couple
of years of sort of no man's land, which is
very common with singers between education and the start of career.
(43:46):
It's very common for all of us, really, all musicians,
you know, And there's this catch twenty two where you
can't get management unless they can go here. You perform,
but you can't get a job. Don't get managed in
the acting world. Okay, call me when you're in a
show and welcome here. That's the manager you're trying to get.
So competitions were the thing that helped me. And one
of the competitions exactly for me. It was the met competition,
(44:08):
and it took me three times, but I finally won.
All of a sudden the doors opened. But it took
about a year and a half. I'd say things went slowly.
The first and the first and the first paid, legit
professional job you have was doing what the first real
engagement was in the Houston Grand Opera and it was
the Marriage of Figaro, and that really put me on
(44:30):
the map, and that described so important. I had never
sung the opera in Italian, I had singing in English.
So I went to rehearse with really seasoned professionals, I
mean people who were big opera stars already, and I
was a beginner, you know. The first day of rehearsal
Thomas Allen, in particular, Sir Thomas Allen, He's got such
an intelligence and a sophistication about his portrayal of all
(44:54):
of these mozart in here herees he's still performing I
think at the World Opera, I was just jelly at
the end of the first rehearsal because I thought I
can't even keep up with him. MOLTI Reachativa is really hard.
Imagine doing very quick dialogue in a foreign language that
you don't speak, really and I learned. You know, when
you're young, you just you just you do what you
(45:16):
have to do to keep up. I lifted the car
off my baby because I had to lift the car.
And when you get these opportunities, you have to rise
to the occasion and take a risk and get out
there and really make it work, or you don't get
the opportunity again. You know, it's so competitive the field.
(45:44):
I think all my horseback riding and doing horse shows
as a kid really prepared me for that. And when
when the curtain, I don't need to be so plodramatic,
but the world you live in that kind of lends itself.
That's when the curtain comes down and the shows, the
first shows, ever, how did you feel? Well? You know,
it's unfortunately too long ago from me to remotely remember that,
but you know, I can tell you there was a
(46:07):
euphoria in those early experiences, a sense of happiness and
relief when I would go from one engagement to the other.
You know, our world, we never stop, so there's no
sort of you do the project and then you take
a break. It's a big blur. It's just after that,
it's a blur, and it's like it's all one big
episode of a TV show. To me, now two things.
(46:28):
One is more tangible than the other. Someone Melanie Griffith
Yers have I said to me that every role you
play is the chance to bury that part of yourself
that you don't like. And the other thing I find
is that when God wants to make fun of me
and to mock me, I'll get a script and what's
going on with that character is exactly what's going on
right right, And I'll read the script and it's almost
(46:48):
God to say to me, see right, stupid it looks
when it's on paper. I have felt that a lot
of times when I've been in any kind of conflict
or struggle, somehow the repertoire that I'm performing has just
coincidentally mirrored it in a way that's been healing. Let's
say healing. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to
(47:35):
here's the thing today with Renee fleming in your work,
because in my work it's not this way. You can't
do what you do unless you summon up some reservoir
of the deepest, deepest passion to sing these roles effectively.
Think of a role you've you've performed where even you
sat there and go, God, this is killing me. We
(47:58):
just came out of you like you couldn't believe it.
Kim out of it, you know there, Well, there are
two sides of it. One is the vocal. One one
is this feeling that you know I'm in the right
place at the right time to be singing this, and
you know your voice well. The voice is such an
evolving instrument. So when I sang Tais, for instance, at
the met some years ago, and had these spectacular costumes
(48:18):
from Christian Loqua, you just thought the stars have aligned
to make this role of suit me perfectly right now.
I love singing in French. I love Massine the way
it lies, the character, the fact that you know, the
psychological drama and this opera where these two people completely
changed places with each other. That was a case certainly
(48:50):
where I just thought, you know, and I was going
to do it again and somebody stopped and said, do
you want to sing it again in five years if
it's not as good as it was this time? And
I said, you're right, I'm not going to I'm not
going to risk that it was It was perfect. I
mean it was. I couldn't do it better. So it's
(49:11):
not very often I can say that I couldn't do
it better. Someone else maybe could do it better. Different
It was the best that I could do. How have
opera audience has changed during your career at all? I
think the challenge we face in opera in general, and
I would say forget opera and classical music is really exposure.
(49:32):
It used to be that we had exposure obviously in schools.
We had exposure through churches and through our families. Every
socially climbing family got a piano, uh and and felt
that a musical education was part when arts education was
part of their children's, you know, the betterment of their lives,
and that you know it is what it is. It is.
(49:53):
It is gone. It's just simply people don't feel it's
relevant anymore. It makes my heart when you say that,
But it's true when you do a show, when you're
performing a piece what's the day like for you? You
go to the theater and do you have us do
do people in your future of like a warm up?
(50:13):
You do? Is there a well I know nothing about
vocal I try to vocalize earlier in the day because
I find that it's better for me a little bit.
Just kind of see where it's at. You know, some things,
Drinking certain things I have to be careful about. I
love caffeine, you know. I would drink coffee all day
and I have to be careful about that because it's dehydrating.
So I have my typical so and you have to
(50:36):
force fluids a little bit, which I hate too. So
these are the boring things, but not really good people
I think are just interested in what kind of the
discipline is complex? Yea, most people can't control what they
eat and drink. There's a little bit of that, having
the humidifier on, making sure it's a lot about you know, moisture.
These are all mucous membranes. The vocal folds are very sensitive,
(50:58):
and you want to go in to that performance with
them being super healthy and not dried out. We're the
Olympians of singers, really, and you will have a three
to five hour long performance and that takes a lot
of physical stamina. Yeah, it's a lot of physical stamina.
Plus you're emotionally all over the place, you know, as
(51:19):
you said it to very But it's mainly the amount
of sound we have to produce to be heard over
the orchestra and the chorus in a huge hall. That's
the thing that that is different. And if we sing well,
if we sing technically well, we should be able to
get up the next day and sound normal. You know,
people will go to sports events and scream at you know,
the other team or even there if the people they
(51:40):
like and their horse. The next day. We can't do that.
We're doing the same thing, but we're doing it in
the trained way, and you know, it is a hard
art form to get right. There are all these elements
and it's live. But when it's right, it's it's amazing. Oh.
(52:39):
Renee Fleming says she's looking forward to getting some rest,
although it's not clear when that will come. In addition
to her busy performance schedule, she recently became the creative
consultant for the Lyric Opera in Chicago. They just announced
an upcoming world premier opera based on the bestseller Bell Conto,
and she's been advocating for more arts education in schools.
(53:04):
It's not just for people to be consumers of the artists,
for them to also participate, find the creative voices, and
build confidence through participation. My thanks to it's a promin
(53:31):
at Renee Fleming. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing that's
brought to you by my Heart Radio.
This is Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to Here's
the Thing from My Heart Radio. Every other week this fall,
we will be airing a rebroadcast of some of my
favorite episodes from our archives. This week we're featuring two
super novas from the world of classical music, acclaimed soprano
Renee Fleming and the reigning virtuoso of the violin, Itzac Proman.
(00:25):
First my interview with Itzac Proman from two thousand nineteen.
(00:48):
This is it sac Perlman's exquisite vibrato on Bach's first
violin Sonata. He was mature by the time he made
this recording, thirty years into a career year that started
before his bar Mitzvah. Perlman doesn't like the word prodigy,
but it's hard to avoid. At three, he was practicing
scales on a toy violin. At four, he was studying
(01:12):
with a great master. At thirteen, he was whisked away
from his native Israel to the United States to be
on the Ed Sullivan Show. He won admission to Juilliard
that same year. From prodigy to master and finally national treasure.
(01:35):
For sixty years, his life was a blur of world tours,
and TV specials, playing for the Queen, and given a
place of honor on the program for Obama's inauguration. Yet
it's not Perlman had a difficult childhood, stricken by polio
(01:57):
in the war torn early days of israel statehood. Now
he gives back at every opportunity, including through the proman
music program founded by his wife Toby. The summer school
is located on idyllic Shelter Island, giving talented kids of
every background the chance to study with the world's greatest musicians.
(02:19):
You'll meet Toby and a couple of former students at
the end of the program. You'll even hear the students
play a virtuoso movement from Mendelssohn's Actete. The whole crew
joined me live on stage at the n y U
Screwball Center in Greenwich Village. I always ask people who
have a career similar to your career, if you understood
(02:40):
they have career similar to Mike. Well, not really, I
actually know there aren't many. There aren't many, but anybody
but anybody who was a young person who especially in
this world during where they cultivate them very young, and
in sports too, where they get these kids when they're
ten years old, and they kind of know that they're
heading to the NBA or the NFL or whatever. But
you're a very young child, and I'm wondering, do you
(03:05):
know what you're going through when you're a young child,
or you're too busy doing it to understand what you're
inside of when you were getting shot through? This rocket
did become the famous well when I would look when
I was young, Uh, my parents thought that I had
a good ear because I could repeat everything, you know,
by singing it. And then I said I want to
play the violin, and I think they told me that
(03:27):
I had a nice sound. So that was the, if
you want to call it, the unusual thing about the
way I played. I had a nice sound. You were
playing on what didn't you like? A toy violin? Or
But I just started with a toy, which I didn't like,
so I quit that, and then I was playing on something.
I don't remember what it was. It wasn't anything spectacular.
I started really when I was like almost five four
(03:49):
four and three quarters almost. You know, why what made
you do I want it? I wanted I like the sound.
I love the sound of the violin. I heard it
on the radio, and I said, that's what I want
to do. Simple, that's what I want to do. And
and there's no explanation. You know, everybody has a different
thing that they hear and it sort of grabs their imagination.
(04:09):
And violence sound was that and I think it was
hyper So it was pretty good for grabbing the imagination.
You know, at what age do you've started a little
tougher with them with their how old? Well, look, everybody
has their own sort of schedule of development. You know.
Sometimes you hear somebody at the age of twelve who
just sound basic, not very very good, but you hear
(04:32):
something there, and so you have to know what's to
say and what not to say. I'd like to just
insert that. You know, what's the great secret of a
good teacher is not only knowing what to say, but
knowing what not to say, and especially what not to say.
When somebody that has great gift and great musical musical
(04:52):
natural nous and those that have that great gifts in
that naturally leave them alone. Do you leave them alone? No? No,
you don't want to hurt them. No, it's not their feelings,
it's you don't want to fox around. You know, you
don't want to, you know, just let the natural ability
to natural talent develop and usually things get better as
(05:13):
you grow older, you know, without having to really nitpick
with everything. And that's that's I find is a danger,
because you know, when the teacher has such incredible talent
in front of them, you know, they want to give
you their old so then they become too picky. Leave
it alone, Just leave it alone. During what years did
you study with gold Guard? I studied with her from
(05:36):
the age of five until I was thirteen. You studied
with for eight years, eight years, and then you came
to the United States to do Sullivan when you were
thirteen years old. Then when you came to do so
I find that believing. When you came to do Sullivan
and you're thirteen years old, did you have any idea
who Sullivan was? That's what your first idea. It's a
weird exactly. No. No, I didn't know how how you
(06:00):
looked or anything. I just I just in Israel they
talked about because when we came to Israel to audition
a whole bunch of people to go on his show.
They said there they didn't call him Sullivan. They called
him Sullivan that's Sullivan. Sat Sullivan. Uh, that's Sullivan, that's Sullivan. Oh, television,
(06:24):
I said, okay, television. At the minute I heard television
said I mean so I so I auditioned, you know,
and then I was chosen. You know that there was
there was sent people over to audition musicians. Yes, Israel, Yes,
because he wanted at Sullivan wanted a show only of
the isra Eli pard of my accent, only of the
(06:44):
isra Eli people. So it was a variety great Jew
and coming back to the homeland and the kids. Ever, well,
there's some people thought his name was at Solomon, but
we changed to at Sullivan. It might have but but
you know, so the whole show was an Israeli variety show.
You've seen this show. You know he had everybody had
(07:04):
a monkey dancing, and then he had somebody playing the violin.
And so in this particular case, it was a pair
of folk singers that there was to know that we
didn't have topo and we didn't have them, but we
had a ballet dancer was fourteen. We had a coloratura
soprano from Yemen. I think I was in the Department
(07:26):
of Human Interest. Story or chubby story I don't know
what I was what I was, but I was cute,
I think, sorry, very cute. I was cute. Thank you
so much, Thank you so cute. I know when you
come over you've never been to the US before, your
mother comes with you. Yes, and you perform on Sullivan. Yes,
you remember what that was like to win the show.
(07:46):
It was slightly exciting. Uh, I didn't know, No, it
was it was very exciting, you know, and so I
I kind of played and it was very It was
over very quickly, you know, because I did the last
moment of the Medicine Concerto and they cut it down
to about I think two two minutes and forty five
(08:07):
seconds because that was it. And uh, and he introduced me.
He was a lovely gentleman, really very very nice. Is
that what happened after you did Sullivan? Uh? We went
on a tour in the US, The entire group that
did Sullivan. We went on a on a tour long months. Yeah,
about three or three or four months. Yeah. Yeah. And
(08:29):
at the end of the and at the end of
the tour, I went well, the main thing the challenge
was to get into the Juilliard School, and that was
one of it it was it was it was that a
plan for you to go to Juilliard. Yes, when you
were back in Israel, before Sullivan, before before Slight, it
was a dream to go to Juilliard, but Sullivan made it. Yes,
(08:50):
it was a very Juilliard. And there was a teacher
there who taught Julia that I heard about in Israel,
by name of Galamian. And so we said, one of
these days, maybe you'll study with glam and Ivan Glaman.
Yet his assistant at that time was Dorothy Delay, and
she came and heard me play, and she thought that
I had a good chance, had a good sound. I
(09:12):
had a good sound. You know that that was my
forte is the sound. But then you were about fourteen
thirting half fourteen run around the same sound. So what
was it like for you? You never lived in New York.
And again this idea of being like shot out of
a cannon to have the spectacular career, this big ticket career.
You want thirteen years old, you want Sullivan, You're touring
(09:33):
the country, You're gonna go to Juilliard. What was your
recollection that was it intimidating or you don't have time
to think about that? I didn't really think about it
because it wasn't really look it wasn't like a professional career.
It was a specialized career, you know, in other ways
to play for It was an Ed Sullivan concert. It
wasn't like I was playing a recital someplace, you know,
(09:53):
or I was making my debut in Carnegie Hall or
anything like that. It was a specialized kind of concerts,
you know. And used to play um also, I used
to play for Jewish benefits, you know, for the u
J And they knew about me, you know, because the
whole organization, the Jewish organization knew about this Sullivan program.
So they used some of the people for fundraising. And
(10:16):
I was, you know, sometimes I was I would be
called at the telephone. I would be hired to do
fifteen minutes or ten minutes at the end of the fundraising,
you know, and I would appear probably like eleven o'clock
at night, you know, and I would play the Nygun
Bay Block and the Flight of the Bumblebee and that
was it. And then I would leave and and I
would get I would get paid, you know, and it
(10:38):
was it was great, you know. I played while the
people were eating their desserts. And of kosher food and
things like that. It wasn't the same people liked. One night,
you do Flight of the Bumblebee, and somebody says he
was better at Jerry's bar mitzvah, so much better. I
never did bar mitzvah's. I never did bar mitzvahs, and
I didn't and I didn't do weddings dding no Vedic's absolutely.
(11:02):
You know, now, when you leave and you come to
to the United States, when you left for the Sullivan trip,
was it assumed you were going to go home? What
did you kind of know? You knew you weren't going home.
I knew that I was. I was going to stay.
And my dad stayed for about a year in Israel
and finished selling the apartment and thus in the business,
(11:23):
and then he came and joined us. I even remember,
you know, I did not see my dad for a year,
and the only way to get in touch was through letters.
And then a bit later on, you know, maybe after
about five, six, seven, eight months, we actually were able
to arrange for a long distance call from New York
(11:47):
to Tel Aviv, you know. And at that time, so
you're talking about nineteen fifty nine, so it was like
ten o'clock in the morning, you know, on the phone
rings and I hello, huh hello, that's the connection, you know,
(12:07):
that was the connection. And you know we had absolutely
and we had in our street where I lived, we
had no phone. So what we had was there was
a grocery store that had the telephone. So whoever want
to make a long distance called, we'll go to the
grocery store and we pick up. So that's that's what
you knew you were going to stay. Yes, yes, I
learned the language from watching TV and you know, listening
(12:31):
to the Yankee baseball. Spoken very little English and now hardly.
I took a class of English in Israel. I think
I failed. But it's amazing how quickly you learned, you know,
when you hear the language around you all the time,
and you were you went to Julian without family years.
Let's see, until I think nineteen or I was nineteen
(12:54):
or twenty, I think, because I because I still I
remember still uh doing answerts and having to go to class,
and you know sometimes I was late to a class
and I got hell to pay, you know, because I
just took a flight from Los Angeles. Give me a break,
you know, I don't know. But you didn't go an
English class. You know you have to be there. So
but I was, you know, so I did both things
(13:16):
for a while and then I graduated. And where do
you think your sound comes from? I don't know. I mean,
I really don't know. It's it's something that I hear.
You had polio old. I had pol when I was
four and three quarters. So do you find that music
become you imbue that with even more of your being
in your spirit because you were limited in the things
(13:37):
you could do as a child. I don't think. So
I'm getting everything wrong with you everything, but that's not it.
But but you're batting the los good. But you're doing good,
you know, I mean, because you know no, it's no, seriously,
I just I don't think so. I mean, I mean,
I couldn't say to you, well, let me see how
(13:58):
I'm playing without napolio, and now le's see how I'm
playing with the polio. I can't. I can't see what
I want. But I'm wondering if you that Okay, Sorry,
I mean giving you such a hard time. So I'm
so sorry. I mean, I knew this was coming. I've
been around you a few times, it's always it's always
an obstacle. Course, but anyway, the the but but you know,
(14:21):
what I'm saying is is that do you think the
spirit of the person is that relevant? No? I don't know.
I love to watch people who are famously like whether
it's there actors or or people in sports, and sort
of try and guess what kind of people they are
in private, you know, and uh, being good and being
(14:42):
a wonderful person and being a sort of an agreeable
sympathic a kind of person is not necessarily together. You know.
I remember my wife always, you know, sometimes we go
to a concert and we hear somebody who's absolutely amazing,
and I said to become on, let's go backstage and
say hello, and she said, I'd than not. You know,
I don't want to be disappointed all the way this
(15:04):
person plays. Just let's let's not do it. Let me
just relax and just enjoy it. Uh. You many many
people who conduct, and I'd love to get your opinion
of this. Many people who conduct are people who have
good careers as a soloist. They played typically the violino,
the piano, but they don't necessarily have great careers. And
then but someone taps them on the shoulders there, or
(15:26):
you keep time very well, and they moved them on. No.
But I mean, I mean, every every one that I
would talk to would say that. To me, I'd say, uh,
you know, doti this one they say. Somebody walked up
to me when I was like ten years old and said,
you keep time very well, and they moved them into
the conducting program. What happened, They moved into the viola section.
(15:50):
M that's our ad for the show. No, no, no, no,
I might study that. Viola jokes are no longer applicable
because the level of viola playing has really risen seriously,
so that you said should be that too. No, it's
really viola jokes. You know, used to be that the
level was a little bit below, but right now it's brilliant.
(16:10):
I mean, so many brilliant viola players. So it's not
but it's still funny, you know, violin legend. It's a
Pruman has a special place in his heart for the
(16:31):
New York Pilharmonic. He and then music director Alan Gilbert
teamed up for the Phil's opening Galla a few years ago.
Here films our guest soloist. It's a filman followed by
music directors an filmat Alan Delbert Gilbert found out he
got the job from the Phil's president, Zarin Meta, after
(16:52):
a particularly miserable bedtime for his toddlers. We had had
a torturous night and they'd finally fall on sleep, and
I got a call from Zarin Meta just after they
had fallen asleep, and he said, I'd like to invite
you to be our next music director. I said, my
kids just fell asleep. I can't talk to him. But
then I called him back and we had scene in
(17:13):
a movie where guys like more than being the music
director of the Philharmonica, I want my kids to go
to sleep. Clink totally. He will. We all know the
madness of that. The rest of my conversation with Conductor
Alan Gilbert at Here's the Thing dot Org coming up.
It sucked Perman on Alan and Gilbert's art, what makes
a great conductor? Plus his wife Toby Perlman on their
(17:35):
music school and the next generation of great masters, takes
on Mendelssohn and my questions. This is Alec Baldwin and
you were listening to Here's the Thing. It sacked. Perlman
didn't bring his famous Strata Varius. He says playing takes
more effort now than it used to. As you get older,
(17:56):
everything becomes more difficult than more demanding. Uh oh, are
you kidding me? But you know, if you do a
great piece, you can do it over and over again
and no matter how I mean for me. I mean
a perfect example is debatedpen Violent Concerto, which is not
getting any easier as you get older, because but it's not,
(18:17):
but it's very, very difficult when you're young as well.
It's I call it when when my students start the piece,
I say welcome to the lifetime journey, because that's what
it is. You know, you start to play and it's
pretty good, and then you played again, and you played
again and you grow up with it. So that's that's
what music is about. In the minute you think musically
(18:39):
like that, especially when you repeat something you're on the
right track. Instead of saying, oh, I have to do
that again, but you know, you have to look at
the music and you have to say, this is gonna
be yet another experience. You know, it's it's gonna be
one way or one or another way, but it's not
going to be a repetition of what I did a
(19:00):
week ago or a month ago. When you want to
sit down, assuming that you do this, I don't want
to assume. But when you want to listen to someone
else play the violin that you admire and you admire
their sound, give us an example of somebody you listen
to for pure tone. The first person that comes to
mind is Friz Chrysler. You know. You you listen to
(19:23):
old recordings of of his and you think, you know
those days that you know, there wasn't there wasn't the
great advancement in technology and so and that it's that
you you hear scratches, you hear the tone, and you say,
oh my god, that is something unbelievable, you know, or
(19:44):
you know, menu And had a fantastic sound. I mean,
everybody had a different kind of sound, but sometimes sounds
it's apples and oranges, you know. I mean, but that
the first person that that I hear of that kind
of sound is his. You conduct, yes, and the when?
When when did that they? And why it began? I
tell her it's very funny. It began with the Proman
Music program. Uh my wife who started this whole thing.
(20:08):
She said to me, we're going to have a string orchestra,
could you coach them? So I didn't think of myself
as a conductor. I thought myself as a coach. So
I picked up at pencil and conducted with the pencil,
you know, because if you conduct with the baton, you're
a conductor. With a pencil, you're more of a teacher,
you see that, I think. And anyway, so that's actually
when it started and I got some interesting again. I
(20:32):
got some nice sounds from the orchestra. Conducting I find
very mysterious, you know, because you can have four or
five conductors who are absolutely excellent, and each one gives
you a downbeat, and the orchestra will sound different with
each What do you attribute that to? I have no idea,
Thank god, what do you think makes a good conductor?
(20:53):
Oh well, obviously knowing the score and knowing all of
this things, but in the final analysis, there is a
mystery as to what makes somebody conductor phrase in the
orchestra play a certain way. I don't understand that. You know,
a great conductor should understand what he or she wants
to hear from the orchestra. So if I do, let's
(21:14):
say a bit of a Brahms symphony. What do you
say to a great orchestra who have performed that hundreds
of times? How do you get the orchestra to hear
pop up up and say, hey, that's really good stuff,
as as as opposed to I again, you know, So
(21:34):
that's that's that's the difference. Well, it's your it's my
own rendition of what I want, what I want to hear. Now,
tell everybody the idea. How did the school started? It
was Toby's idea, my wife Toby's idea. It was her
dream because we met in a school in a summer
program during during Juliard, sure, of course, and so she
(21:54):
started this whole thing, you know. And it was actually
twenty five years ago. So this are on fifth anniversary
for the program music program, and yes and uh and
it was it was basically for strings, and I think
we had kids come to our house in Long Island
(22:17):
and practice scales and you know, like at eight o'clock
in the morning, you said, Toby thought that was the
greatest alarm clock. And but we are now in Shelter Island.
The people, whether whether it's the young program or the
eighteen program, are they is it free of charge? And
you're raising money to pay for the whole people. We
(22:39):
never we never, we never refused, We never refused for
lack of funds. We give a lot of people scholarships
and scholarships and some uh some more some lessons so on.
Then some if they want to pay, they can pay.
But it really doesn't matter because, you know, the the
expense of the program is so that even if we
were to charge everybody equally, will still be in the
(23:03):
in the red severely, severely, believe me, severely. But it's great.
And the program has not grown on purpose. You know,
we started with about thirty eight thirty nine kids and
we still have thirty a thirty nine kids for the
little program. And it's and and it's amazing, it's crazy.
It's very difficult to describe unless you go there and
just give the experience. We have kids playing twice a
(23:26):
week works in progress we call it whips, you know,
where they try new pieces in front of an audience
and so on. It's it's it's great and I've been
listening during the summers. I don't play concerts. I just
teach there and with with other great, great faculty, and
we have you know, the philosophy of a lack once
you're in that program, a lack of competition between the kids.
(23:48):
You know, they all support each other, and for me,
that's so important. You know that that you know when
somebody plays well, they're truly happy for them, and when
somebody messes up, they go and they console them and
they really feel for them. It's it's it's a it's
a real Family's so important, it's a great father. It's
our problem's wife, Toby Proman, please come and join us, Toby,
(24:12):
and please welcome Rachel Lee Friday and Mandal Gooseby. No, no,
we're gonna bring out six other people who've been playing
the violin since they were eighteen months old. Let's get
them out here, and then when we're done performing, we're
gonna end. We're gonna end with this music. Can they come? Great?
(30:47):
That was itsa Proman, his wife and Proman Music program
founder Toby and their brilliant violin students Rachel Lee Priday
and Randal Gooseby. The Artists who made up the octet
were Rachel and Randall, plus Stellick Shan and Kenneth Renshaw
also on violin, Charley Smith and Joshua Chale on viola,
(31:08):
Nico Olarte Hayes and iach N Sue on cello. The
piece was the presto from Mendelssohn's arctet Opus twenty in
E flat major, recorded live at n y US Screwball
Center in Manhattan, and now My Conversation with Renee Fleming
from two thousand twelve. Renee Fleming has a powerful effect
(31:53):
on people. Conductor Sir George Shoalty described the opera singer's
voice as double cream. Garrison Keeler said she made his
nostrils twitch. New York chef Daniel Blue created a signature
dessert to honor her. But Renee Fleming is down to earth.
(32:15):
When the People's Diva, as she's been called, went to
Paris to rehearse Handle's Alcina, one of her favorite roles,
she spent most of the first week looking for playgrounds
for her two young daughters. Renee grew up in Rochester,
New York, where both her parents were high school music teachers.
During the first two years of her life, while in
(32:37):
her playpen, Renee would listen while her mother gave singing lessons.
A few years later, Renee organized a barbershop trio with
her younger sister and brother. One might say Renee Fleming
was born into music. Often refer to myself as an
indentured servant because we grew up with it. My parents
were both We all sang all the time. You take
(32:59):
a family cross country trip and be singing the road
signs and in harmony, and I thought everybody did that.
I just like, oh, well, this is what families do.
Your friends would get in the car with your family
and was like, with these crazy Flemings exactly singing to
the trees, missing to the exit signs. And we talked
about singing. Did you feel like this was your way
(33:19):
to communicate with your own parents? Well, interestingly, my dad
was a big jazz fan. My mother didn't bring music
home much at all. She wanted to break from it
when she came home. Other than when we performed, she
prepared us. You know. I think her idea was that
we would be the next one traps. You know. My father,
thank god, put the kabashion then and said, I don't
(33:40):
think so. Um. Let me guess your mother was the
competitive one. She she was very type AI, you know,
she's check and my my grandmother and my aunts were
all like this. I mean, they would come over and
they just the work ethic was unbelievable. I think I
work hard. No no, no, no no no. They used to
look at me and say, you know, and a you're
(34:00):
you really need to step it up. And I see
myself doing the same thing with my two daughters. So
I can't. I sort of can't help it. But the
music thing, you know, it was just so natural for us,
and my way of rebelling against it was to find
my own music. So I became a composer in middle school.
I started writing songs and then play piano, played piano,
(34:21):
I played guitar. And what kind of music did you write?
You're like Johnny Mitchell was sort of singer what we
call now singer songwriter, But I also wrote art songs
that I actually notated and wrote out that other people sang.
In that time, women weren't particularly encouraged to be composers.
In a different setting, that might have been the direction
(34:41):
I would have gone in, because I loved it and
it suited my temperament much better than performing. I was
so shy. Performing was so far away from whoeverly was
um A specific opera, the first opera if you can
recall because I remember the first movie I went to
see in a movie theater. What was the first opera
that you became a you know, I would say, gosh,
(35:08):
sure Angelica. This is what I remember because my mother
performed it and we were in the first row, and
this is the Eastman Theater. So first of all, I
was incredibly impressed by the theater, this massive chandelier, you know,
all the velvet. I mean I took up violin because
of the velvet in the case. So we were nothing
(35:30):
if not superficial. I guess, you know. I didn't really
know anything about the story, but she was crying, and
she was crying because she was singing about, you know,
her her dead baby and wanting to be joined with
her baby again, and looking at her three children in
front of her. Somehow, I think that really impressed me.
Did you ever imagine at that time, it in the
(35:50):
middle school and you're seeing this piece, that that would
be a path for you, that you would end up
where you are now. Gosh, No, nobody really asked kids
in those days, what do you want exactly? What would
you like to do? You just went along. I know
so many people in my generation who applied to three
colleges and never gave it much thought. And really, you know,
(36:14):
the way we raised children now is world's apart from
how we were raised. How do you feel, we said,
how do you feel? My parents couldn't give a damn
how I felt. No, Really, the only thing I thought
that I wanted to be was the president. So there
was i'd say, a colonel of ambition there in the
world I was in. It was, you know, doctor lawyer,
or a few of a more working class background, a
(36:36):
job that gave you a security and a pension, the
Long Island Railroad, the police department, the fire department. You know,
you learned very quickly to choose from the menu actor
was not on the menu that was submitted to me. Well,
I wanted to muse again, like my parents, So that's
another thing you did. You followed your parents because you
couldn't think of anything else to do. And then when
(36:58):
the singing became more interesting, and particularly jazz um, when
I really found myself through singing with it in a
club every weekend for two and a half years, then
my parents got nervous. Oh, it's so hard, it's too competitive.
What happens when you're you're writing songs, popular music. And
(37:20):
whenever you know where you said singer songwriter, whether it's
Carol King or what have you, and you're singing jazz
in nightclubs, in Rochester clubs, they're knowing Potsdam where I
went to undergraduate. Score is Potsdam a hotbed of jazz.
It's a college hotbed. And the drinking age was twenty one.
So yes, so we all spent a lot of time
(37:42):
in clubs. In this particular Algiers Pub had very high
quality jazz all the time. And the guys that I
worked with are are all working musicians. It was an
extraordinary education for me in many many ways. I mean,
that's how we learned. That's how I was able to
embrace performing. Because Illinois Jacked heard me sing in pot
(38:14):
Salmon said why don't you come on the road, but
come to New York and yes, it's great tenor saxophone
player was really going to put me on the map
as a jazz singer. And I just knew I didn't
have the courage. You could have been a popular singer.
You could have what where do you take the term
you're just saying, I'm going to operate? Is it now?
(38:34):
What happened. Had I grown up in New York City,
the singer songwriter thing might have opened. Doors might have opened.
I mean, I sang on television in high school winning
some talent show, literally playing a song that I wrote.
Making the decision to go on undergraduate school. That's sort
of solidified. Graduate school was where so you went from costom,
you went back home. Then I tried to pursue jazz,
(39:00):
and and that didn't work. Despite the fact that Eastman
had a phenomenal jazz department, I just couldn't get in.
I couldn't break in. So, you know, it was really
circumstance that pushed me towards classical music, and eventually I
really embraced it. And the other thing is I realized
it was much more suited to my temperament. I liked
being in the practice room. I liked studying. I enjoyed
(39:22):
wrestling with this instrument harder. I don't know that it
was harder, but it was more internal, kind of cerebral work.
You know. The interesting thing about jazz or anything popular,
you see, it was a very personality driven and I
just didn't have that. I think I do now. Interestingly,
I've come out of my shell. I mean when I
(39:43):
tell people I was extremely shy that nobody believes me
now to overcome yes, exactly. You know. I found a
lot of comedians to be extraordinarily serious and and draws
withdrawn sometimes, So yeah, I think sometimes we overcome things
by going after the very thing that really a loud
to us. So certainly my case that was it. I
would observe friends who were comfortable performing and I would
(40:07):
just try to act like them, So that was that worked.
It's an impersonation. Someone said to me, how do you
perform in the theater, like why is the theater so
soothing to you? And I say, because I know that
for two and a half hours and know exactly where
I'm going to be, exactly what I'm going to say,
exactly what you're going to say, and exactly how a
roomful of people are going to react to what I say.
(40:28):
And you don't feel performance pressure because I had terrible stage, right.
I do feel the pressure in rehearsal. I feel the
pressure to unearthed, to get down to it and get
the work done. And if I feel that we got
the work done, then it's orgasmic, you know, Like I
go out there in front of the only thing. I'm like, well,
(40:49):
how's everybody doing? You know, I'm like, really, I'm very happy, comfortable. Yeah,
I think they're gonna like it if I go out there.
And I'm a little bit hesitating because I'm thinking, I
don't think we got it. But you do two years
at Eastman and graduate degree there, then what happens? And
I went to Juilliard, Uh did postgrad. I could be
a doctor or a lawyer as long as I was
in Juilliard at the time the American Opera Center so
(41:13):
now the Juilliard Opera Center, I believe it was a
post graduate program. I was cast as Mozetta in Labo
m So I came here to sing a role. You
get free lessons, coaching, all of the support that we
couldn't otherwise afford. You know, you're a beginner. And I
worked in Rocket Feller Plaza for a law firm, pay
my rent and everything, and it was a great year.
(41:35):
It was a phenomenal year. Say to yourself, why didn't
I do this sooner? Yeah? Yes, because I was so happy,
and I was running around the city like a maniac,
so active. And then I took a full right grant
and studying in Germany and that was hard. How were
you there in Frankfort. It was important. It was probably
one of the most crucial pieces in my education because
(41:57):
it was so challenging. Number one challenging. I didn't speak
a word of German when I went there. I was
in the whole chield for musique and was not accepted
into the opera department, which was very disappointing to me
at the time. I cried the whole way there, literally
sobbing yes, And my boyfriend at the time, who became
my husband, said well, you know, don't not go because
(42:18):
of me, And I remember thinking, God, that would be
the furthest thing from my mind. I was so kind
of self possessed, but also clueless about the choices I
was making. That's why I wrote a book for young singers,
because if young singers are any one of them like
I was, you just don't know what you're getting into.
(42:39):
But I was also very lucky because that year turned
out to be a very formative experience. I mean, learning
to speak fluent German. How many languages do you speak fluent? Well,
I studied French in high school like many of us did.
That was, you know, the language. Paris is my second home,
and I sang there every year for a long time,
so my French is when I'm there, it picks up
again and it's but German is even more fluent and consistent.
(43:03):
During that year. You learned to speaking fluently in that
one year. You know, I love the study of learning
and of memory, because what I've discovered is that at
the end of that year my German was okay, was good,
you know. But every year, every time I go back,
it gets better and I don't have to speak a
word of German in between. So the brain, those neurons
keep firing. Then you come back to Julliard. Yes, then
(43:26):
I come back to Juilliard. I tried to stay in Germany.
I tried to stay there and get work. No one
would have me, so I came back in my career
started here. Then, how well, I had a rough couple
of years of sort of no man's land, which is
very common with singers between education and the start of career.
(43:46):
It's very common for all of us, really, all musicians,
you know, And there's this catch twenty two where you
can't get management unless they can go here. You perform,
but you can't get a job. Don't get managed in
the acting world. Okay, call me when you're in a
show and welcome here. That's the manager you're trying to get.
So competitions were the thing that helped me. And one
of the competitions exactly for me. It was the met competition,
(44:08):
and it took me three times, but I finally won.
All of a sudden the doors opened. But it took
about a year and a half. I'd say things went slowly.
The first and the first and the first paid, legit
professional job you have was doing what the first real
engagement was in the Houston Grand Opera and it was
the Marriage of Figaro, and that really put me on
(44:30):
the map, and that described so important. I had never
sung the opera in Italian, I had singing in English.
So I went to rehearse with really seasoned professionals, I
mean people who were big opera stars already, and I
was a beginner, you know. The first day of rehearsal
Thomas Allen, in particular, Sir Thomas Allen, He's got such
an intelligence and a sophistication about his portrayal of all
(44:54):
of these mozart in here herees he's still performing I
think at the World Opera, I was just jelly at
the end of the first rehearsal because I thought I
can't even keep up with him. MOLTI Reachativa is really hard.
Imagine doing very quick dialogue in a foreign language that
you don't speak, really and I learned. You know, when
you're young, you just you just you do what you
(45:16):
have to do to keep up. I lifted the car
off my baby because I had to lift the car.
And when you get these opportunities, you have to rise
to the occasion and take a risk and get out
there and really make it work, or you don't get
the opportunity again. You know, it's so competitive the field.
(45:44):
I think all my horseback riding and doing horse shows
as a kid really prepared me for that. And when
when the curtain, I don't need to be so plodramatic,
but the world you live in that kind of lends itself.
That's when the curtain comes down and the shows, the
first shows, ever, how did you feel? Well? You know,
it's unfortunately too long ago from me to remotely remember that,
but you know, I can tell you there was a
(46:07):
euphoria in those early experiences, a sense of happiness and
relief when I would go from one engagement to the other.
You know, our world, we never stop, so there's no
sort of you do the project and then you take
a break. It's a big blur. It's just after that,
it's a blur, and it's like it's all one big
episode of a TV show. To me, now two things.
(46:28):
One is more tangible than the other. Someone Melanie Griffith
Yers have I said to me that every role you
play is the chance to bury that part of yourself
that you don't like. And the other thing I find
is that when God wants to make fun of me
and to mock me, I'll get a script and what's
going on with that character is exactly what's going on
right right, And I'll read the script and it's almost
(46:48):
God to say to me, see right, stupid it looks
when it's on paper. I have felt that a lot
of times when I've been in any kind of conflict
or struggle, somehow the repertoire that I'm performing has just
coincidentally mirrored it in a way that's been healing. Let's
say healing. This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to
(47:35):
here's the thing today with Renee fleming in your work,
because in my work it's not this way. You can't
do what you do unless you summon up some reservoir
of the deepest, deepest passion to sing these roles effectively.
Think of a role you've you've performed where even you
sat there and go, God, this is killing me. We
(47:58):
just came out of you like you couldn't believe it.
Kim out of it, you know there, Well, there are
two sides of it. One is the vocal. One one
is this feeling that you know I'm in the right
place at the right time to be singing this, and
you know your voice well. The voice is such an
evolving instrument. So when I sang Tais, for instance, at
the met some years ago, and had these spectacular costumes
(48:18):
from Christian Loqua, you just thought the stars have aligned
to make this role of suit me perfectly right now.
I love singing in French. I love Massine the way
it lies, the character, the fact that you know, the
psychological drama and this opera where these two people completely
changed places with each other. That was a case certainly
(48:50):
where I just thought, you know, and I was going
to do it again and somebody stopped and said, do
you want to sing it again in five years if
it's not as good as it was this time? And
I said, you're right, I'm not going to I'm not
going to risk that it was It was perfect. I
mean it was. I couldn't do it better. So it's
(49:11):
not very often I can say that I couldn't do
it better. Someone else maybe could do it better. Different
It was the best that I could do. How have
opera audience has changed during your career at all? I
think the challenge we face in opera in general, and
I would say forget opera and classical music is really exposure.
(49:32):
It used to be that we had exposure obviously in schools.
We had exposure through churches and through our families. Every
socially climbing family got a piano, uh and and felt
that a musical education was part when arts education was
part of their children's, you know, the betterment of their lives,
and that you know it is what it is. It is.
(49:53):
It is gone. It's just simply people don't feel it's
relevant anymore. It makes my heart when you say that,
But it's true when you do a show, when you're
performing a piece what's the day like for you? You
go to the theater and do you have us do
do people in your future of like a warm up?
(50:13):
You do? Is there a well I know nothing about
vocal I try to vocalize earlier in the day because
I find that it's better for me a little bit.
Just kind of see where it's at. You know, some things,
Drinking certain things I have to be careful about. I
love caffeine, you know. I would drink coffee all day
and I have to be careful about that because it's dehydrating.
So I have my typical so and you have to
(50:36):
force fluids a little bit, which I hate too. So
these are the boring things, but not really good people
I think are just interested in what kind of the
discipline is complex? Yea, most people can't control what they
eat and drink. There's a little bit of that, having
the humidifier on, making sure it's a lot about you know, moisture.
These are all mucous membranes. The vocal folds are very sensitive,
(50:58):
and you want to go in to that performance with
them being super healthy and not dried out. We're the
Olympians of singers, really, and you will have a three
to five hour long performance and that takes a lot
of physical stamina. Yeah, it's a lot of physical stamina.
Plus you're emotionally all over the place, you know, as
(51:19):
you said it to very But it's mainly the amount
of sound we have to produce to be heard over
the orchestra and the chorus in a huge hall. That's
the thing that that is different. And if we sing well,
if we sing technically well, we should be able to
get up the next day and sound normal. You know,
people will go to sports events and scream at you know,
the other team or even there if the people they
(51:40):
like and their horse. The next day. We can't do that.
We're doing the same thing, but we're doing it in
the trained way, and you know, it is a hard
art form to get right. There are all these elements
and it's live. But when it's right, it's it's amazing. Oh.
(52:39):
Renee Fleming says she's looking forward to getting some rest,
although it's not clear when that will come. In addition
to her busy performance schedule, she recently became the creative
consultant for the Lyric Opera in Chicago. They just announced
an upcoming world premier opera based on the bestseller Bell Conto,
and she's been advocating for more arts education in schools.
(53:04):
It's not just for people to be consumers of the artists,
for them to also participate, find the creative voices, and
build confidence through participation. My thanks to it's a promin
(53:31):
at Renee Fleming. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing that's
brought to you by my Heart Radio.
Host
Alec Baldwin
Popular Podcasts
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Decisions, Decisions
Welcome to "Decisions, Decisions," the podcast where boundaries are pushed, and conversations get candid! Join your favorite hosts, Mandii B and WeezyWTF, as they dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often-taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday, Mandii and Weezy invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, they share their personal journeys navigating their 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engaging in thought-provoking discussions that challenge societal expectations. From groundbreaking interviews with diverse guests to relatable stories that resonate with your experiences, "Decisions, Decisions" is your go-to source for open dialogue about what it truly means to love and connect in today's world. Get ready to reshape your understanding of relationships and embrace the freedom of authentic connections—tune in and join the conversation!