March 29, 2022 • 37 mins
Rory Kennedy is a documentary filmmaker and the youngest child of Ethel and Robert F. Kennedy. She is an Academy Award-nominated, Emmy Award-winning director and producer who has made more than 40 acclaimed documentaries. Her work confronts complicated subjects like poverty, corruption, domestic abuse, addiction and human rights, as well as surfing legends, NASA and the extraordinary life of her mother. Her latest film, “Downfall: The Case Against Boeing,” on the two tragic Boeing 737 Max passenger jet crashes, is now streaming on Netflix.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's Alec. We all love true crime podcasts, but
perhaps you're looking for something a little different, less murder,
more intrigue. I invite you to check out a new
podcast I just released called Art Fraud. It's the true
story of one of New York City's oldest and most
trusted galleries dealing in world class art, and how its
(00:23):
doors would close forever in the wake of an unprecedented scandal.
The art market is ripe for cons because it's inherently subjective.
I just couldn't even look at it because it was
so garish and so not by Rothcoe. We're talking about
(00:44):
eighty million dollars in fake paintings, or more precisely, forgeries.
All episodes of Art Fraud are available right now. Okay,
here's our show. This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening
to Here's the Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest
(01:04):
today comes from the most legendary of American families. Rory
Kennedy is the youngest daughter of Senator Robert F. Kennedy
and the niece of President John F. Kennedy. But as
she will tell us during our conversation, she's also one
of the great Kennedy Women. Instead of following her forebearers
(01:24):
into law or politics, Kennedy has made a name for
herself as a documentary filmmaker. Her films feature a wide
range of subjects, from surfing legend Laird Hamilton's to challenging
issues like poverty, addiction, and mental illness. In her current film,
She's tackling corporate corruption. That film, Downfall, the case against Boeing,
(01:48):
investigates the circumstances that led to two tragic passenger jet
crashes in two thousand eighteen and nineteen. Rory Kennedy and
I talk about her remarkable upbringing and how the people
she's encountered in her life have influenced her trajectory. I
think it's hard to detach anybody from how they grew up, right,
(02:10):
I Mean, it's such an influence and impact on who
you become. And certainly that was the case with me.
I grew up, you know, the youngest of eleven and
in obviously a very political family, and I was impacted
by that. I mean I was also surrounded, my mother
made a point of this by really extraordinary role models,
(02:34):
you know, and we had such a the honor of
meeting whether it was you know, presidents or congressman and
senators or people like Nelson Mitndela and Desmond Tutu, you
know who who were in our homes, and also some
of the great athletes and you know NASA astronauts. I mean, so,
(02:56):
I think it was a life where we were surround
did by people who created a sense of aspiration and
to try to make the world a bit of a
better place now. But would you say, though that, as
you're making a film, do you have protocols, rules, tenants,
whatever word you want to use while you sit there
(03:17):
and say that's not something I'm going to do that's
influenced by the way your family has been treated. If
you're making a film and that's some aspect of a story,
there's a very kind of scandalizing, tawdry, shy away from that.
Because the way you guys have been attacked from time
to time. I think I have certain sensitivities. For example,
with downfall, the case against Boeing, there's three forty six
(03:40):
people who died, and there are the family members who
are related to those people, some of whom we talked
to in our film, And I was definitely thinking, well,
how is it going to be for these folks to
watch this film, right, And I've had to see scenes
over and over again that play themselves out on the
news that are are very upsetting to watch about my
(04:02):
family dying right and being killed and and I didn't
want to subject them to that. But I also wanted
to make a film that was impactful. We do c
g I recreations of what it was like to be
in the cockpit so that we could really help people
understand the perspective of the pilots in these planes and
(04:22):
what they were struggling with with the umkest system. And
you know, but I thought, how are these folks going
to watch this film? So when I sent the film
to them before it's coming out, I highlighted all the
sections that I thought would be hard for them to watch,
so that they could be aware of that and go
into it and decide to watch those sections or not. So,
(04:43):
you know, maybe I have some sensitivity and moments like that.
I think the types of films I choose generally tend
to be political in nature and tend to you know,
I hope when people watch these films, whether it's this
or a film about Vietnam The Final Days of the
(05:04):
war film about Abu Grabe, that we learned from them,
and we learned from watching these stories and and hopefully
make better choices moving forward. Right. So, I think the
choices of the films I make are certainly impacted by
the family I grew up in. It's interesting that you
mentioned that. And this is only tangential, but remember being
(05:25):
invited years ago Clinton was in the White House. I
was invited to the White House to a screening of
the movie The Paper by Ronnie Howard, and I'm sitting
in a seat in the theater and the woman to
my right, who's sitting next to me, A gun goes
off in the middle of the film, and that woman
grabbed my arm and gasped this huge gasp when the
gun went off. It was your mom, right, So you
(05:49):
know there's me to this day. It's she's not prepared
for that. Those sounds. Yeah, So there's trauma related to
that for sure. Now to get to the film. So
I watched this film, obviously, and I was mesmerized. Congratulations,
by the way, I mean, you came to the Hampton's
Film Festival. Every year a film of yours comes and
(06:09):
we all look atach other We're like, can we really
invite her again? We were bringing Rory out to Easthampton again.
I mean is it enough? And I mean how much
more can we shine her up here? But we loved
your film about your mom. We're gonna get to that later.
Loved Last Days of Vietnam. That was a great I'm
not just saying this, that's a great movie. Great movie
really just you what film can do and the spirit
(06:32):
of what's happening and understanding that those moments that you
did a great job. Now, this film made me angry.
This film. I was pissed off because only one guy
I think, I think is criminally charged, correct, that's correct,
and that we identify that person, Mark Forkner, And he
was in charge of what at Boing. He was a pilot,
(06:54):
a test pilot, and he was you know, he really
wasn't responsible for what up end and a lot of
people feel like he was scapegoaded because he was really
in charge of making sure, you know, he was testing
the plane. And then he played a role in keeping
the m cast system away from the regulators and that's
(07:16):
documented and there's proof of that, and so they followed
up with that. But you know, Congressman de Fasio, for example,
led the congressional investigation into what happened, the biggest investigation
the Infrastructure and Transportation Committee's history, and he concluded that
this is was really top down right, that the top
(07:37):
group in management at Boeing was very aware of the
m CAST system, that there was a concerted effort to
keep the system away from the regulators, to hide the system,
and to cut corners along the way, and that there
was you know, it was a culture of concealment, is
what he calls it. So I think that there are
(07:59):
a lot of people who feel like the folks who
are most responsible have yet to be held accountable, and
there's been no criminal charges, and you know, Muhlinberg walked
away with the head of Bowing, the head of Bowing
sixty two million dollars. So you know, I think after
you've kind of watched the film and really understand all
(08:21):
the decisions that the management of Boeing made along the
way to prioritize profit over safety, that you know, when
you understand the depths of those choices, that I think
many people like you are outraged. Well for people I
don't want to, I want them to see the film obviously,
but I want to give them just a taste of
so Boeing wants to create. I'll let you fill in
(08:44):
the blanks. So they want to create a fleet. They're
losing market share, they're getting their hat handed to them
by air Bus. Things are not looking good for Boeing,
who had been dominant around the world for decades. And
then and then we're the pride of not to Seattle
with the United States. They've Asian industry, and then the
things start to go down from so they want to
play catchup and they want to produce a lower cost,
(09:06):
more fuel efficient I think was the goal of the
seven max. Got to get the word max in there.
The seven thirty seven fuel efficiency was the goal. And
then a part of this was the development of this
system which was to help to so they don't make
too steep a climb. A system takes over the plane
and lowers the nose of the plane and forces the
plane down, but doesn't shut off. It forces the nose
(09:28):
of the plane down straight into the ground. Correct, Well, yeah,
that's correct. There was There were concerned at a certain
angle that the plane would stall, and so they instead
of changing the kind of structure of the plane and
moving the engines and whatnot. They decided to fix it
with a computer system, again in an effort to save money,
(09:51):
it seems, and that computer system was connected to one
sensor on the side of the airplane, like a weather vane.
And so if that sensor was damage, which happens off
and gets hit by bird, something happens to it, it
would send and this is what happened, erroneous information to
the computer system. So it would tell the computer system
(10:13):
that the plane was at a certain angle and you
needed to push the nose down. But it wasn't at
that angle. It was, you know, more at a flat angle.
And not only would it push the nose of the
plane down, but it would do it over and over
and over again. Probably the most powering details you covered
the film is and the pilots were not told about
(10:34):
the installation of this system, that's correct. It's you know,
prior to the Line Air crash, which was the the
first crash, the pilots were completely unaware that this system
was even on the airplane, which was also kind of
flew in the face of what had been the normal
(10:54):
relationship between Bowing and pilots, which was to really educate
for pilots about everything. Training, you know, make them fully
equipped to handle any situation that would happen. But in
this case, they in an effort to really keep this
from regulators. Really, what was motivating them is that if
(11:15):
they have a totally new system on the airplane, then
they have to train pilots. And if they have to
train pilots, it costs them a million dollars per an aircraft,
you know, on average to train these pilots. So they
wanted to again it seems, save the money. And so
instead of making people aware that this system was on
(11:37):
the airplane, they made a concerted effort to We're not
even gonna tell you about this machine we've installed, which,
if it behaves badly, is going to crash the plane.
And there's a manual override that they might have been
able to activate. They could have gotten out of it.
I guess if that they if they had had the training.
If they had had the training, except what we also
(11:59):
discover and case in the course of this film is
a document that came out in It's called a coordination
sheet that shows that if something went wrong with the system,
that the pilots would need to fix it. Within ten seconds.
Otherwise the power of the MCT system would overtake them
(12:19):
if they didn't do it in ten seconds, and the
results would be catastrophic. And catastrophic in airplane language means
the plane will crash and everybody will die. So you know,
even if the pilots right. So in the second instance,
in the Ethiopian airplane crash, the pilots were aware of
the system, they did everything right, they did what they
(12:41):
were told to do, and the plane still crashed. So
you know, if you don't and what you have to
also remember, and this is why we also created the
kind of the c g I recreation of what happens
in that cockpit because there's this cacophony of sounds and
error alerts that are all contradict geting each other that
(13:01):
the pilots are trying to understand and navigate and figure out. Okay,
this is saying where you know, the altitude is in disagreement,
that air speed is in disagreement, that the all systems
alert is on, the stick shaker is going, there's all
of these alerts coming at them, and then with that
they have to navigate. Okay, Well, what this all means
(13:23):
is that I need to do these steps within ten seconds,
and otherwise this plane is going to crash. I mean,
I don't want to go on a plane that is
putting pilots in that position. I don't want to put
my children or my people whose job who would give
anything to save the lives of their passengers. Think of
something more unimaginable than to be on the in the
(13:45):
cockpit of a plane and the plane is behaving and
not in some anomalous way. You see yourself hurtling towards
the ground. It's at nine eleven. You're the plane is
going into the ground and you're sitting there thinking what
can you don't and you don't know what to do? Right,
It's completely know maybe they're eating a turkey sandwich. You know,
it does not like you're not. They're sitting there, everything
(14:05):
on total alert for the entire plane ride. Before we
get into the macro of your filmmaking, one more thing,
I think you make it clear in the film, the
idea that this is a different Bowing. At this point,
I thought it was fascinating how you talk about the
move to Chicago. They moved the headquarters to Chicago for
the purposes of distancing themselves from the influence, and I
(14:26):
though it was well thought. The influence was good. It
was a nice battery. It was a nice exchange between
Union's management, design and technology and the corporate and these
guys like, no, no, no, we we don't want to
be too close to those guys in Seattle. So we're
gonna move to Chicago so we can make our decisions
in this bubble in Chicago. And it seems like what
was a great company, that rare, I mean, multibillion dollar enterprise.
(14:50):
It made big, expensive things that they were very proud of,
that defined the city, and everything moves to Chicago, and
it seems like that's part of the problem. It was
once the that merger was made and they moved to Chicago,
that cost cutting thing becomes primary. I think that's right,
you know. I think like you, I love Boeing and
what Boeing stood for in this country, and you know
(15:12):
the history of Bowing, and we really celebrate that in
the film because it's been an extraordinary company for decades.
You know, it helped us get out of World War Two,
It helped build the fighter jets to win that war.
It helped get us to the moon with my uncle Jack.
I mean, they helped build those engines and the rocket ships.
(15:32):
They helped people be able to travel all over the
world for the first time, you know, with the seven
forty seven, an extraordinary accomplishment. So we wanted to celebrate that.
And during those very early years and for many decades,
Boeing did one thing, which was to say, we're going
to prioritize excellence and safety and then the profits will follow.
(15:56):
We're going to make the best planes possible, we're gonna innovate,
we're going to do new things, and we're going to
think to the future. And then it changed hands, taken
over really. I mean, one person we interviewed said somehow
McDonald douglas bought Bowing with Boeing's money and the McDonald
douglas people were put in charge, and they had a
(16:18):
very different business model, which was very Wall Street focused
and quarterly earnings, you know, And so they've made a
series of decision corporate decisions to cut back on personnel
whose whose job it was to ensure safety and put
pressure on the folks who were building the planes to
(16:39):
build them quicker and faster. And when people would complain
about safety, that slows that process down documentary filmmaker Rory Kennedy.
If you enjoy conversations about the making of documentary films,
check out my episode with British filmmaker Lucy Walker. Her
documentary Bring Your Own Gaide is an in depth look
(17:01):
at California wildfires and their effect on local residents. What
I want to understand is, well, how are we stopping
it and why are people living in these areas and
building these houses that burn over and over and over again.
Could we do better? So you would think that when
people look at developing an area for housing, they would
think about far safety, but nobody's actually thinking about what
(17:27):
are they going to be able to ensure these homes
and who's going to pay if these homes burned down.
To hear more of my conversation with Lucy Walker, go
to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Rory
Kennedy and I discussed the filmmakers who have influenced her work.
(17:55):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.
Filmmaker Rory Kennedy has made more than forty documentaries. Her
work has earned an Emmy and several OSCAR nominations along
the way, I wanted her to share some of her
process as a filmmaker. Well, you know, different people and
companies work in different ways. I'm very hands on as
(18:17):
a filmmaker, and I you know, I love to be
doing all the interviews and being in the edit room,
and so I don't take on a huge number of
projects at any given time. And usually when I decide
that I really want to do a particular project, I
really try to make it happen. I was really committed.
I felt like this story was so important, the Downfall story.
(18:41):
I think, like so many other people, I witnessed these
two airplanes crashing within five months of each other, the
exact same aircraft. Three forty six people died, and you know, I,
like so many other people, fly right, And I felt
like I want to know what happened, who knew what when,
who is responsible for this? And I want to make
(19:04):
sure that something like this doesn't happen again. But I
also felt that, you know, during the last decades that
America has been really prioritizing corporate interests, right, And so
I think this film, I think this film I hope
rises to something that's not just about these crashes, which
(19:28):
is you know, as meaningful as it gets, but I
think it touches on something else, which is the need
to regulate, the need to balance out corporate interests making money,
making money, making money, and the need to balance that
with public interests. Right, And we've seen corporations like going
(19:49):
balances for many decades and do fantastically well. And I
think that when that gets out of balance, it hurts everybody.
So when you see someone like the fi Ausio, the
head of the committee, the guy that was the leading
light there in the Congress, did he have as much
integrity overall as it appears to be on screens? Fantastic
because because you know as well as I do, you
(20:10):
know where are people in government who care enough and
they want to fight the way we're going? Like like
Boeing was a company, you said, well, you understand, you
want people to make money and make profits. Bowling was
doing quite well before. I'm sure they had a slump
when Douglas took over. But what you find is not
only do people want to make money, they want to
make obscene amounts of money. They want to make an
amount of money that they're looking at you like your child,
(20:32):
like well you know now calm down, sunny, because there's
a lot of money at stake here for us who
run and own the company. And my point is is
that for me, I'm always so sad. I'm always so
impacted by government officials who don't have the guts to
do their job. And the government's job is. I mean,
I've I watched people in testimony in hearings and I
(20:54):
think to myself, thank God I'm out there, because I
would be looking at the heads of car companies and alchemies, going,
you don't get it. You come here, you answer our
questions on behalf of the American people. We have the authority,
and I feel like that authority is not always employed effectively.
You said Defacio did a good job. He's amazing. I
mean he and his heart was so in the right place.
(21:16):
But he was also dogged and he held these folks accountable.
And you know when you see him in those congressional
testimonies and chasing down every single document and you know,
putting this report together, which took years in the making
and is incredibly thorough. They go after bowing and they
(21:36):
hold them accountable, and they're continuing to go after bowing.
So I think there are a lot of extraordinary heroes
who are celebrated who are really on the front lines
of this, whether it's Defasio or Michael Stummo, who's the
father of Samuel Stummo who died in the Ethiopian plane
crash and turned from a victim to really an advocate.
(21:59):
And he, I mean, I just got off the phone
with him yesterday and he he's not giving up on this.
I mean, Bowing has thrown a lot of money at
these families to get them to be quiet, and he
is not going to be silenced. And he is continuing
to you know, spread the message that that this that
he has a very continued concerns about the safety of
(22:21):
the seven thirty seven Acts, the seven eight seven Dreamliner.
They just announced yesterday the f A a that I mean,
as though this should be news, but that the FAA
is going to actually regulate Bowing and not let Bowing
regulating regulate. So you know, watch the film because that's
another interesting point about how when I was studying government
(22:44):
at gw in the seventies, when I went down to
Washington to go to school, and we talked about that,
and we talked about how you know, uh, departmentalization, how
people are in these departments, like presidents come and go.
We're here civil servants for twenty thirty years, and so
here at the f A, we have our own relationships
with eight with airline companies, and they allowed Bowing to
self regulate and self inspect. I do think you're right
(23:07):
that there's they're not enough people in government who are advocating.
But I guess my point is is that in this
film you show a world where advocacy comes from a
lot of different perspective. It comes from the government officials
doing the right thing in this case to Fasio, it
also comes from you know, people who don't think of
themselves as advocates but turn into ad it's as a result.
(23:30):
And then you know Andy Pestor, who's a dogged journalist
who chases down the story and gets us the information.
And it's the combination of all of those people who
come together, and you know the storytellers, right, So I'm
I'm not putting myself in that category, but we also
have to you know, the Lucy Walkers and and yourself,
(23:53):
the people who are packaging these stories and getting them
out in a way that's digestible to an audience and
so that that translates hopefully into creating a better world.
I'm curious for people to understand how documentary films come
to the screen. Bob Drew, he did the trip tick
(24:14):
primary about your uncle. I mean, one of the funniest
things in the world you've ever seen in your life.
Hubert Humphrey walking into like some barn with men sitting
on bales of hay, saying, America, we know what it's
got to do. And then you cut to your uncle
walking with his wife into room for the people and
people are crying and screaming like it's a Beatles concert.
(24:35):
Who is going to win the primary? Who were your
influences in your filmmaking, Well, certainly Bob Drew was, I
mean an extraordinary filmmaker. Penny Baker was a huge influence
on me as well. Barbara Copple, who you know. The
first documentary feature I made was American Hollow, which was
about a family in eastern Kentucky and it was really
(24:58):
an extraordinary story ray of its woman who had thirteen
kids and they all lived off the land, and we
kind of spent a year with them. Certainly influenced by
Barbara and her extraordinary work and in Kentucky and Appalachia. So,
you know, I think those early verite filmmakers have huge
(25:19):
influence on the world of filmmaking today. And then they're
just you know, there's just a slew of incredible filmmakers
who are colleagues of mine. You know Lucy Walker you mentioned,
I think she's a fantastic filmmaker. My old partner, Liz Garbage,
is fantastic. We're not still together as a company, but
(25:42):
were we remained very good friends and advocates for each
other film. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, gosh, you's your so knowledgeable.
Amy Berg is fantastic. RJ. Cutler, Davis Guggenheim. I mean,
there's just Don Porter. I think that we're surround funded
by really talented filmmakers, and I think there's I think
(26:04):
we've all also been influenced, you know. I think this
verity influence has impacted the kinds of work that we do.
But I think we're also influenced by Hollywood and the
films that we're seeing, the narrative films and the dramatic storytelling,
so that we're making films that keep you a little
(26:25):
bit more at the edge of your seat of what's
going to happen next, you know, and and really pull
you into the characters and and and to the plot
and too. You know, the storytelling. I think it's very
sophisticated these days. I think you know, you see it
out in the world, and you know, when you turn
on your Netflix account, it's a mix up there. It's
(26:45):
not like, here's the narratives and then go down deep
into your Netflix account to find the documentaries there up center.
You know, because people are watching them and they're they're
pulled in and and I think it's because they're really
great storytellers. Filmmaker Rory Kennedy, if you're enjoying this conversation,
(27:08):
tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the
Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Spotify or wherever
you get your podcasts. When we come back, Rory Kennedy
talks about the film of hers that was the hardest
for her to make. I'm Alec Baldwin and you were
(27:34):
listening to Here's the Thing. The Kennedy family has made history,
and most of that while occupying a path from Hyanna Sport, Massachusetts,
down to McClean, Virginia. And yet Rory somehow landed in California. Well,
my husband Mark, as you know, as a screenwriter and
a writer, and he is also my partner in writing documentaries,
(27:56):
but he has other writing that draws him out there.
So we decided we'd go out there for a couple
of years because at that time, ten or twelve years ago,
the kind of independent film world was fizzling out here
in New York and was sort of pivoting over the
West Coast. We fell in love with California. Your brother
moved that. I talked to my friend, I go, how
do you like it? Goes it's great? I go, oh god, no, no,
(28:20):
I said, not you not you come on, you're going
You're going out there? I said, I mean, I think
Cheryl is great, but there's a lot of other women
out there for you, Bob, And he doesn't have to
be living out there in California, and he loves it. Yeah.
He came out there with his EMU, his bird. I
remember he was trying to figure out a way to
get the bird out there, and I said, well, you know,
(28:42):
maybe try Richard Plepler. He's got that HBO plane. So
he called Richard and he said, can I bring my
can you take my bird out? But he failed to
mention that the bird was six ft high and needed
to go with Richard anyway, so he said, the catering
order came out and then Bob, he didn't have a
house for the first couple of weeks, so the bird
(29:04):
lived at my house with Mark Nate blueberries and anyway,
there are lots of stories to tell about to be
the bird. And he loves California, know too, but yeah,
he loves he loves it out there. Now, you did
the movie about your mom, and of course you make
a little joke there, But how difficult it was to
recruit your mom? Yes she was not she was not
(29:29):
a willing subject to be filmed, but eventually she settled down.
My siblings were very difficult to by the way, really well, yes,
they just didn't make it easy busy now, they just
wanted to make it difficult for me, because why would
why would they make it easy when they don't have
to know? They were all fantastic and including my mother,
and they they did answer ultimately all the questions I
(29:52):
asked them. And my mother, I was just with her
yesterday I played back and with her, and I mean
I was just I was winning whole game. My diets
were so much better. I played brilliantly, and then she
beat me again. She's ninety four. I cannot beat that woman.
Clinging back him and I'm not a bad back him
and Claire, I love I love that your mother also.
(30:13):
And you know this infinitely better than I do. She
just in her own wonderful way and in a truly
in a truly marvelous way. She just doesn't suffer fools
at all. And we're playing golf up there at the
golf tournament, and she says to me, come in golf
with me. You're gonna you're gonna be with me, and
you're gonna be with Frank and so and so and so.
And I go, I said, I beg your pardon. I said,
you have to really understand it's important because this I've
(30:33):
crossed this this juncture before. I said, I'm a miserable golfer.
Of course you can hit a golf ball. Come on,
come on, I said, no, I don't think you really understand.
I need you desperately to listen to carefully what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, no, please,
because this is nonsense. Come on, you're gonna come with me.
You're gonna play with me and Frank and I. As
is always the case, I am scared to know. So
I do fairly well. I can drive the ball, I
could I I get lucky with the iron. I can
(30:54):
put back and drive iron some terrible We get to
the second to the third hold in your mother TN.
She goes, you're right, you really can golf? Can you?
Did she check you off your team? Can we get
could we get in here? Someone? Where's the ringer that
was following us? To fill inform me? Now? One thing
I noticed when I worked with the counselor sisters who
did disturb in the universe about their father, William Kunstler,
(31:16):
And when I was talking to them, it was I
kind of knew this, but it was brought into sharper
focus for me. The cost. I mean, they told me
that they were trying to retire a debt of forty
fifty dollars of debt they owed for archival footage from
NBC and other network news organizations. Is that true for
you as well? Meaning? Do you find these costs are
just because I, for one, belief that old network news
(31:38):
organizations the materials should be made free under fair use.
These are public airways. Yeah, well it is. It can
be astronomical the cost associated with archive. I mean, we're
lucky enough with this film that it was. It was
fully financed by Netflix, who covered those costs for us,
so so we're not dead on it. But it can
(31:59):
really make her a a lot of terrific documentaries out there.
I think more people are leaning into fair use, but
there has been a few instances of backlash against that
where people chase them down and demand being paid, you know,
particularly for these historical documentaries. It's it's a real cost.
(32:20):
It's like people who when I was working more consistently
on the issue of campaign financial reform with creative coalition
organizations I worked with years ago in the nineties, from
disparate sources, we learned that the one of the great
enemies of campaign finance reform is the National Association of
Broadcasters because these affiliates in the network TV world. Someone
(32:44):
said to me, there are stations in this country that
make seventy of their annual budget during one election cycle
and selling political advertising. They do not want to take
the money out of politics, and the n a B,
the National Association War is constantly finding campaign finance law changes. Yeah, listen,
I so appreciate your work in that area too, because
I think, you know, when just circling back to your
(33:06):
point about you know, who are these leaders now like
Defasio who are advocating for us. I think it's it's
hard given the system that we have to really produce
and and encourage people who are who are in it
exclusively for the public interest, right. I mean, that's those
are the types of people who you want to be
(33:26):
driven to politics as people who are going to make
the world a better place, but instead they're often driven
there because of money, and that's not really the reason
you want people ultimately in that in that position. So
I think there's a lot still to be done, obviously
with campaign finance reform in this country. Which film for
(33:47):
you was the most difficult to put together as a film,
What was the biggest challenge. Well, I think the hardest
one for me was ethel you know, the stakes were
so high and it was so deeply personal. You know,
I had to look through lots of footage. We're talking
about archive footage, you know, some of which was extraordinary
(34:07):
and beautiful and so fun to see and just you know,
gave me a depth of understanding of my family and
my father, who I never met. You know, just watching
him in this footage and a lot of footage has
never been seen before. Was was a really beautiful experience
for me. But it was also emotionally challenging and difficult,
(34:31):
and you know, I wanted to ultimately make a film
that showed, you know, the challenges and the difficulties that
my mother in particular went through and faced, but also
you know, to celebrate her because I think that for
so many people in our family, with a focus on
(34:51):
Robert Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Kennedy, but there's not
as much focus on the women, right and there. You know,
my aunt unit started the Special Olympics. She's contributed enormously
and but she hasn't quite gotten that same level of attention,
and nor has my mother. And so many people when
they introduced me, they say, oh, this is Robert Kennedy's daughter,
(35:12):
and I'm like, well, my mother actually raised me, and
you know, she played a pretty big part in like
who I Am. So part of it was like, I
think she deserves the spotlight at least for a moment,
like at least understood. Yeah, and to help people understand
her contribution because she was also her nature was to
(35:33):
kind of stand behind and not you know, be the
one on the microphone and be the one sort of
at the front line. So anyway, I think just for
me personally, the stakes were higher on that one and
and it was more challenging for me. What are you
working on next? I'm working on a couple of projects.
I've got another film with Netflix that is about a
(35:56):
volcanic eruption that I'm doing right now, and then I've
got a film about the global refugee crisis that Yes,
these are the main ones I'm focused on, and I'm
very excited to, you know, have this film coming out
on Netflix, and UM committed to getting as many eyes
on it as possible. Now, Last Days of Vietnam was in.
(36:19):
How many of these films Ethel was in. I can't
believe it. But if these last films, have most of
them been with Netflix. Now, this is my first film
that I've directed with Netflix. Last Days was with PBS,
Ethel was with HBO, did a film about NASA with
the Discovery Channel. Let me just say I like that.
(36:40):
I have such admiration and respect for you. You're such
a talented artist, and you've always committed yourself to making
the world a better place. And you have such a
love for people and heart that is more open and
more generous than anybody I know. And I just have
(37:02):
such deep admiration and respect for you. Might love to
your mom, Will you take care of Thank you? Rory Kennedy.
Her documentary Downfall, The Case against Boeing, is available now
on Netflix. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice,
and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Here's the
(37:26):
Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.
Hey, it's Alec. We all love true crime podcasts, but
perhaps you're looking for something a little different, less murder,
more intrigue. I invite you to check out a new
podcast I just released called Art Fraud. It's the true
story of one of New York City's oldest and most
trusted galleries dealing in world class art, and how its
(00:23):
doors would close forever in the wake of an unprecedented scandal.
The art market is ripe for cons because it's inherently subjective.
I just couldn't even look at it because it was
so garish and so not by Rothcoe. We're talking about
(00:44):
eighty million dollars in fake paintings, or more precisely, forgeries.
All episodes of Art Fraud are available right now. Okay,
here's our show. This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening
to Here's the Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest
(01:04):
today comes from the most legendary of American families. Rory
Kennedy is the youngest daughter of Senator Robert F. Kennedy
and the niece of President John F. Kennedy. But as
she will tell us during our conversation, she's also one
of the great Kennedy Women. Instead of following her forebearers
(01:24):
into law or politics, Kennedy has made a name for
herself as a documentary filmmaker. Her films feature a wide
range of subjects, from surfing legend Laird Hamilton's to challenging
issues like poverty, addiction, and mental illness. In her current film,
She's tackling corporate corruption. That film, Downfall, the case against Boeing,
(01:48):
investigates the circumstances that led to two tragic passenger jet
crashes in two thousand eighteen and nineteen. Rory Kennedy and
I talk about her remarkable upbringing and how the people
she's encountered in her life have influenced her trajectory. I
think it's hard to detach anybody from how they grew up, right,
(02:10):
I Mean, it's such an influence and impact on who
you become. And certainly that was the case with me.
I grew up, you know, the youngest of eleven and
in obviously a very political family, and I was impacted
by that. I mean I was also surrounded, my mother
made a point of this by really extraordinary role models,
(02:34):
you know, and we had such a the honor of
meeting whether it was you know, presidents or congressman and
senators or people like Nelson Mitndela and Desmond Tutu, you
know who who were in our homes, and also some
of the great athletes and you know NASA astronauts. I mean, so,
(02:56):
I think it was a life where we were surround
did by people who created a sense of aspiration and
to try to make the world a bit of a
better place now. But would you say, though that, as
you're making a film, do you have protocols, rules, tenants,
whatever word you want to use while you sit there
(03:17):
and say that's not something I'm going to do that's
influenced by the way your family has been treated. If
you're making a film and that's some aspect of a story,
there's a very kind of scandalizing, tawdry, shy away from that.
Because the way you guys have been attacked from time
to time. I think I have certain sensitivities. For example,
with downfall, the case against Boeing, there's three forty six
(03:40):
people who died, and there are the family members who
are related to those people, some of whom we talked
to in our film, And I was definitely thinking, well,
how is it going to be for these folks to
watch this film, right, And I've had to see scenes
over and over again that play themselves out on the
news that are are very upsetting to watch about my
(04:02):
family dying right and being killed and and I didn't
want to subject them to that. But I also wanted
to make a film that was impactful. We do c
g I recreations of what it was like to be
in the cockpit so that we could really help people
understand the perspective of the pilots in these planes and
(04:22):
what they were struggling with with the umkest system. And
you know, but I thought, how are these folks going
to watch this film? So when I sent the film
to them before it's coming out, I highlighted all the
sections that I thought would be hard for them to watch,
so that they could be aware of that and go
into it and decide to watch those sections or not. So,
(04:43):
you know, maybe I have some sensitivity and moments like that.
I think the types of films I choose generally tend
to be political in nature and tend to you know,
I hope when people watch these films, whether it's this
or a film about Vietnam The Final Days of the
(05:04):
war film about Abu Grabe, that we learned from them,
and we learned from watching these stories and and hopefully
make better choices moving forward. Right. So, I think the
choices of the films I make are certainly impacted by
the family I grew up in. It's interesting that you
mentioned that. And this is only tangential, but remember being
(05:25):
invited years ago Clinton was in the White House. I
was invited to the White House to a screening of
the movie The Paper by Ronnie Howard, and I'm sitting
in a seat in the theater and the woman to
my right, who's sitting next to me, A gun goes
off in the middle of the film, and that woman
grabbed my arm and gasped this huge gasp when the
gun went off. It was your mom, right, So you
(05:49):
know there's me to this day. It's she's not prepared
for that. Those sounds. Yeah, So there's trauma related to
that for sure. Now to get to the film. So
I watched this film, obviously, and I was mesmerized. Congratulations,
by the way, I mean, you came to the Hampton's
Film Festival. Every year a film of yours comes and
(06:09):
we all look atach other We're like, can we really
invite her again? We were bringing Rory out to Easthampton again.
I mean is it enough? And I mean how much
more can we shine her up here? But we loved
your film about your mom. We're gonna get to that later.
Loved Last Days of Vietnam. That was a great I'm
not just saying this, that's a great movie. Great movie
really just you what film can do and the spirit
(06:32):
of what's happening and understanding that those moments that you
did a great job. Now, this film made me angry.
This film. I was pissed off because only one guy
I think, I think is criminally charged, correct, that's correct,
and that we identify that person, Mark Forkner, And he
was in charge of what at Boing. He was a pilot,
(06:54):
a test pilot, and he was you know, he really
wasn't responsible for what up end and a lot of
people feel like he was scapegoaded because he was really
in charge of making sure, you know, he was testing
the plane. And then he played a role in keeping
the m cast system away from the regulators and that's
(07:16):
documented and there's proof of that, and so they followed
up with that. But you know, Congressman de Fasio, for example,
led the congressional investigation into what happened, the biggest investigation
the Infrastructure and Transportation Committee's history, and he concluded that
this is was really top down right, that the top
(07:37):
group in management at Boeing was very aware of the
m CAST system, that there was a concerted effort to
keep the system away from the regulators, to hide the system,
and to cut corners along the way, and that there
was you know, it was a culture of concealment, is
what he calls it. So I think that there are
(07:59):
a lot of people who feel like the folks who
are most responsible have yet to be held accountable, and
there's been no criminal charges, and you know, Muhlinberg walked
away with the head of Bowing, the head of Bowing
sixty two million dollars. So you know, I think after
you've kind of watched the film and really understand all
(08:21):
the decisions that the management of Boeing made along the
way to prioritize profit over safety, that you know, when
you understand the depths of those choices, that I think
many people like you are outraged. Well for people I
don't want to, I want them to see the film obviously,
but I want to give them just a taste of
so Boeing wants to create. I'll let you fill in
(08:44):
the blanks. So they want to create a fleet. They're
losing market share, they're getting their hat handed to them
by air Bus. Things are not looking good for Boeing,
who had been dominant around the world for decades. And
then and then we're the pride of not to Seattle
with the United States. They've Asian industry, and then the
things start to go down from so they want to
play catchup and they want to produce a lower cost,
(09:06):
more fuel efficient I think was the goal of the
seven max. Got to get the word max in there.
The seven thirty seven fuel efficiency was the goal. And
then a part of this was the development of this
system which was to help to so they don't make
too steep a climb. A system takes over the plane
and lowers the nose of the plane and forces the
plane down, but doesn't shut off. It forces the nose
(09:28):
of the plane down straight into the ground. Correct, Well, yeah,
that's correct. There was There were concerned at a certain
angle that the plane would stall, and so they instead
of changing the kind of structure of the plane and
moving the engines and whatnot. They decided to fix it
with a computer system, again in an effort to save money,
(09:51):
it seems, and that computer system was connected to one
sensor on the side of the airplane, like a weather vane.
And so if that sensor was damage, which happens off
and gets hit by bird, something happens to it, it
would send and this is what happened, erroneous information to
the computer system. So it would tell the computer system
(10:13):
that the plane was at a certain angle and you
needed to push the nose down. But it wasn't at
that angle. It was, you know, more at a flat angle.
And not only would it push the nose of the
plane down, but it would do it over and over
and over again. Probably the most powering details you covered
the film is and the pilots were not told about
(10:34):
the installation of this system, that's correct. It's you know,
prior to the Line Air crash, which was the the
first crash, the pilots were completely unaware that this system
was even on the airplane, which was also kind of
flew in the face of what had been the normal
(10:54):
relationship between Bowing and pilots, which was to really educate
for pilots about everything. Training, you know, make them fully
equipped to handle any situation that would happen. But in
this case, they in an effort to really keep this
from regulators. Really, what was motivating them is that if
(11:15):
they have a totally new system on the airplane, then
they have to train pilots. And if they have to
train pilots, it costs them a million dollars per an aircraft,
you know, on average to train these pilots. So they
wanted to again it seems, save the money. And so
instead of making people aware that this system was on
(11:37):
the airplane, they made a concerted effort to We're not
even gonna tell you about this machine we've installed, which,
if it behaves badly, is going to crash the plane.
And there's a manual override that they might have been
able to activate. They could have gotten out of it.
I guess if that they if they had had the training.
If they had had the training, except what we also
(11:59):
discover and case in the course of this film is
a document that came out in It's called a coordination
sheet that shows that if something went wrong with the system,
that the pilots would need to fix it. Within ten seconds.
Otherwise the power of the MCT system would overtake them
(12:19):
if they didn't do it in ten seconds, and the
results would be catastrophic. And catastrophic in airplane language means
the plane will crash and everybody will die. So you know,
even if the pilots right. So in the second instance,
in the Ethiopian airplane crash, the pilots were aware of
the system, they did everything right, they did what they
(12:41):
were told to do, and the plane still crashed. So
you know, if you don't and what you have to
also remember, and this is why we also created the
kind of the c g I recreation of what happens
in that cockpit because there's this cacophony of sounds and
error alerts that are all contradict geting each other that
(13:01):
the pilots are trying to understand and navigate and figure out. Okay,
this is saying where you know, the altitude is in disagreement,
that air speed is in disagreement, that the all systems
alert is on, the stick shaker is going, there's all
of these alerts coming at them, and then with that
they have to navigate. Okay, Well, what this all means
(13:23):
is that I need to do these steps within ten seconds,
and otherwise this plane is going to crash. I mean,
I don't want to go on a plane that is
putting pilots in that position. I don't want to put
my children or my people whose job who would give
anything to save the lives of their passengers. Think of
something more unimaginable than to be on the in the
(13:45):
cockpit of a plane and the plane is behaving and
not in some anomalous way. You see yourself hurtling towards
the ground. It's at nine eleven. You're the plane is
going into the ground and you're sitting there thinking what
can you don't and you don't know what to do? Right,
It's completely know maybe they're eating a turkey sandwich. You know,
it does not like you're not. They're sitting there, everything
(14:05):
on total alert for the entire plane ride. Before we
get into the macro of your filmmaking, one more thing,
I think you make it clear in the film, the
idea that this is a different Bowing. At this point,
I thought it was fascinating how you talk about the
move to Chicago. They moved the headquarters to Chicago for
the purposes of distancing themselves from the influence, and I
(14:26):
though it was well thought. The influence was good. It
was a nice battery. It was a nice exchange between
Union's management, design and technology and the corporate and these
guys like, no, no, no, we we don't want to
be too close to those guys in Seattle. So we're
gonna move to Chicago so we can make our decisions
in this bubble in Chicago. And it seems like what
was a great company, that rare, I mean, multibillion dollar enterprise.
(14:50):
It made big, expensive things that they were very proud of,
that defined the city, and everything moves to Chicago, and
it seems like that's part of the problem. It was
once the that merger was made and they moved to Chicago,
that cost cutting thing becomes primary. I think that's right,
you know. I think like you, I love Boeing and
what Boeing stood for in this country, and you know
(15:12):
the history of Bowing, and we really celebrate that in
the film because it's been an extraordinary company for decades.
You know, it helped us get out of World War Two,
It helped build the fighter jets to win that war.
It helped get us to the moon with my uncle Jack.
I mean, they helped build those engines and the rocket ships.
(15:32):
They helped people be able to travel all over the
world for the first time, you know, with the seven
forty seven, an extraordinary accomplishment. So we wanted to celebrate that.
And during those very early years and for many decades,
Boeing did one thing, which was to say, we're going
to prioritize excellence and safety and then the profits will follow.
(15:56):
We're going to make the best planes possible, we're gonna innovate,
we're going to do new things, and we're going to
think to the future. And then it changed hands, taken
over really. I mean, one person we interviewed said somehow
McDonald douglas bought Bowing with Boeing's money and the McDonald
douglas people were put in charge, and they had a
(16:18):
very different business model, which was very Wall Street focused
and quarterly earnings, you know, And so they've made a
series of decision corporate decisions to cut back on personnel
whose whose job it was to ensure safety and put
pressure on the folks who were building the planes to
(16:39):
build them quicker and faster. And when people would complain
about safety, that slows that process down documentary filmmaker Rory Kennedy.
If you enjoy conversations about the making of documentary films,
check out my episode with British filmmaker Lucy Walker. Her
documentary Bring Your Own Gaide is an in depth look
(17:01):
at California wildfires and their effect on local residents. What
I want to understand is, well, how are we stopping
it and why are people living in these areas and
building these houses that burn over and over and over again.
Could we do better? So you would think that when
people look at developing an area for housing, they would
think about far safety, but nobody's actually thinking about what
(17:27):
are they going to be able to ensure these homes
and who's going to pay if these homes burned down.
To hear more of my conversation with Lucy Walker, go
to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break, Rory
Kennedy and I discussed the filmmakers who have influenced her work.
(17:55):
I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.
Filmmaker Rory Kennedy has made more than forty documentaries. Her
work has earned an Emmy and several OSCAR nominations along
the way, I wanted her to share some of her
process as a filmmaker. Well, you know, different people and
companies work in different ways. I'm very hands on as
(18:17):
a filmmaker, and I you know, I love to be
doing all the interviews and being in the edit room,
and so I don't take on a huge number of
projects at any given time. And usually when I decide
that I really want to do a particular project, I
really try to make it happen. I was really committed.
I felt like this story was so important, the Downfall story.
(18:41):
I think, like so many other people, I witnessed these
two airplanes crashing within five months of each other, the
exact same aircraft. Three forty six people died, and you know, I,
like so many other people, fly right, And I felt
like I want to know what happened, who knew what when,
who is responsible for this? And I want to make
(19:04):
sure that something like this doesn't happen again. But I
also felt that, you know, during the last decades that
America has been really prioritizing corporate interests, right, And so
I think this film, I think this film I hope
rises to something that's not just about these crashes, which
(19:28):
is you know, as meaningful as it gets, but I
think it touches on something else, which is the need
to regulate, the need to balance out corporate interests making money,
making money, making money, and the need to balance that
with public interests. Right, And we've seen corporations like going
(19:49):
balances for many decades and do fantastically well. And I
think that when that gets out of balance, it hurts everybody.
So when you see someone like the fi Ausio, the
head of the committee, the guy that was the leading
light there in the Congress, did he have as much
integrity overall as it appears to be on screens? Fantastic
because because you know as well as I do, you
(20:10):
know where are people in government who care enough and
they want to fight the way we're going? Like like
Boeing was a company, you said, well, you understand, you
want people to make money and make profits. Bowling was
doing quite well before. I'm sure they had a slump
when Douglas took over. But what you find is not
only do people want to make money, they want to
make obscene amounts of money. They want to make an
amount of money that they're looking at you like your child,
(20:32):
like well you know now calm down, sunny, because there's
a lot of money at stake here for us who
run and own the company. And my point is is
that for me, I'm always so sad. I'm always so
impacted by government officials who don't have the guts to
do their job. And the government's job is. I mean,
I've I watched people in testimony in hearings and I
(20:54):
think to myself, thank God I'm out there, because I
would be looking at the heads of car companies and alchemies, going,
you don't get it. You come here, you answer our
questions on behalf of the American people. We have the authority,
and I feel like that authority is not always employed effectively.
You said Defacio did a good job. He's amazing. I
mean he and his heart was so in the right place.
(21:16):
But he was also dogged and he held these folks accountable.
And you know when you see him in those congressional
testimonies and chasing down every single document and you know,
putting this report together, which took years in the making
and is incredibly thorough. They go after bowing and they
(21:36):
hold them accountable, and they're continuing to go after bowing.
So I think there are a lot of extraordinary heroes
who are celebrated who are really on the front lines
of this, whether it's Defasio or Michael Stummo, who's the
father of Samuel Stummo who died in the Ethiopian plane
crash and turned from a victim to really an advocate.
(21:59):
And he, I mean, I just got off the phone
with him yesterday and he he's not giving up on this.
I mean, Bowing has thrown a lot of money at
these families to get them to be quiet, and he
is not going to be silenced. And he is continuing
to you know, spread the message that that this that
he has a very continued concerns about the safety of
(22:21):
the seven thirty seven Acts, the seven eight seven Dreamliner.
They just announced yesterday the f A a that I mean,
as though this should be news, but that the FAA
is going to actually regulate Bowing and not let Bowing
regulating regulate. So you know, watch the film because that's
another interesting point about how when I was studying government
(22:44):
at gw in the seventies, when I went down to
Washington to go to school, and we talked about that,
and we talked about how you know, uh, departmentalization, how
people are in these departments, like presidents come and go.
We're here civil servants for twenty thirty years, and so
here at the f A, we have our own relationships
with eight with airline companies, and they allowed Bowing to
self regulate and self inspect. I do think you're right
(23:07):
that there's they're not enough people in government who are advocating.
But I guess my point is is that in this
film you show a world where advocacy comes from a
lot of different perspective. It comes from the government officials
doing the right thing in this case to Fasio, it
also comes from you know, people who don't think of
themselves as advocates but turn into ad it's as a result.
(23:30):
And then you know Andy Pestor, who's a dogged journalist
who chases down the story and gets us the information.
And it's the combination of all of those people who
come together, and you know the storytellers, right, So I'm
I'm not putting myself in that category, but we also
have to you know, the Lucy Walkers and and yourself,
(23:53):
the people who are packaging these stories and getting them
out in a way that's digestible to an audience and
so that that translates hopefully into creating a better world.
I'm curious for people to understand how documentary films come
to the screen. Bob Drew, he did the trip tick
(24:14):
primary about your uncle. I mean, one of the funniest
things in the world you've ever seen in your life.
Hubert Humphrey walking into like some barn with men sitting
on bales of hay, saying, America, we know what it's
got to do. And then you cut to your uncle
walking with his wife into room for the people and
people are crying and screaming like it's a Beatles concert.
(24:35):
Who is going to win the primary? Who were your
influences in your filmmaking, Well, certainly Bob Drew was, I
mean an extraordinary filmmaker. Penny Baker was a huge influence
on me as well. Barbara Copple, who you know. The
first documentary feature I made was American Hollow, which was
about a family in eastern Kentucky and it was really
(24:58):
an extraordinary story ray of its woman who had thirteen
kids and they all lived off the land, and we
kind of spent a year with them. Certainly influenced by
Barbara and her extraordinary work and in Kentucky and Appalachia. So,
you know, I think those early verite filmmakers have huge
(25:19):
influence on the world of filmmaking today. And then they're
just you know, there's just a slew of incredible filmmakers
who are colleagues of mine. You know Lucy Walker you mentioned,
I think she's a fantastic filmmaker. My old partner, Liz Garbage,
is fantastic. We're not still together as a company, but
(25:42):
were we remained very good friends and advocates for each
other film. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, gosh, you's your so knowledgeable.
Amy Berg is fantastic. RJ. Cutler, Davis Guggenheim. I mean,
there's just Don Porter. I think that we're surround funded
by really talented filmmakers, and I think there's I think
(26:04):
we've all also been influenced, you know. I think this
verity influence has impacted the kinds of work that we do.
But I think we're also influenced by Hollywood and the
films that we're seeing, the narrative films and the dramatic storytelling,
so that we're making films that keep you a little
(26:25):
bit more at the edge of your seat of what's
going to happen next, you know, and and really pull
you into the characters and and and to the plot
and too. You know, the storytelling. I think it's very
sophisticated these days. I think you know, you see it
out in the world, and you know, when you turn
on your Netflix account, it's a mix up there. It's
(26:45):
not like, here's the narratives and then go down deep
into your Netflix account to find the documentaries there up center.
You know, because people are watching them and they're they're
pulled in and and I think it's because they're really
great storytellers. Filmmaker Rory Kennedy, if you're enjoying this conversation,
(27:08):
tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the
Thing on the I Heart Radio app, Spotify or wherever
you get your podcasts. When we come back, Rory Kennedy
talks about the film of hers that was the hardest
for her to make. I'm Alec Baldwin and you were
(27:34):
listening to Here's the Thing. The Kennedy family has made history,
and most of that while occupying a path from Hyanna Sport, Massachusetts,
down to McClean, Virginia. And yet Rory somehow landed in California. Well,
my husband Mark, as you know, as a screenwriter and
a writer, and he is also my partner in writing documentaries,
(27:56):
but he has other writing that draws him out there.
So we decided we'd go out there for a couple
of years because at that time, ten or twelve years ago,
the kind of independent film world was fizzling out here
in New York and was sort of pivoting over the
West Coast. We fell in love with California. Your brother
moved that. I talked to my friend, I go, how
do you like it? Goes it's great? I go, oh god, no, no,
(28:20):
I said, not you not you come on, you're going
You're going out there? I said, I mean, I think
Cheryl is great, but there's a lot of other women
out there for you, Bob, And he doesn't have to
be living out there in California, and he loves it. Yeah.
He came out there with his EMU, his bird. I
remember he was trying to figure out a way to
get the bird out there, and I said, well, you know,
(28:42):
maybe try Richard Plepler. He's got that HBO plane. So
he called Richard and he said, can I bring my
can you take my bird out? But he failed to
mention that the bird was six ft high and needed
to go with Richard anyway, so he said, the catering
order came out and then Bob, he didn't have a
house for the first couple of weeks, so the bird
(29:04):
lived at my house with Mark Nate blueberries and anyway,
there are lots of stories to tell about to be
the bird. And he loves California, know too, but yeah,
he loves he loves it out there. Now, you did
the movie about your mom, and of course you make
a little joke there, But how difficult it was to
recruit your mom? Yes she was not she was not
(29:29):
a willing subject to be filmed, but eventually she settled down.
My siblings were very difficult to by the way, really well, yes,
they just didn't make it easy busy now, they just
wanted to make it difficult for me, because why would
why would they make it easy when they don't have
to know? They were all fantastic and including my mother,
and they they did answer ultimately all the questions I
(29:52):
asked them. And my mother, I was just with her
yesterday I played back and with her, and I mean
I was just I was winning whole game. My diets
were so much better. I played brilliantly, and then she
beat me again. She's ninety four. I cannot beat that woman.
Clinging back him and I'm not a bad back him
and Claire, I love I love that your mother also.
(30:13):
And you know this infinitely better than I do. She
just in her own wonderful way and in a truly
in a truly marvelous way. She just doesn't suffer fools
at all. And we're playing golf up there at the
golf tournament, and she says to me, come in golf
with me. You're gonna you're gonna be with me, and
you're gonna be with Frank and so and so and so.
And I go, I said, I beg your pardon. I said,
you have to really understand it's important because this I've
(30:33):
crossed this this juncture before. I said, I'm a miserable golfer.
Of course you can hit a golf ball. Come on,
come on, I said, no, I don't think you really understand.
I need you desperately to listen to carefully what I'm saying. No, no, no, no, no, please,
because this is nonsense. Come on, you're gonna come with me.
You're gonna play with me and Frank and I. As
is always the case, I am scared to know. So
I do fairly well. I can drive the ball, I
could I I get lucky with the iron. I can
(30:54):
put back and drive iron some terrible We get to
the second to the third hold in your mother TN.
She goes, you're right, you really can golf? Can you?
Did she check you off your team? Can we get
could we get in here? Someone? Where's the ringer that
was following us? To fill inform me? Now? One thing
I noticed when I worked with the counselor sisters who
did disturb in the universe about their father, William Kunstler,
(31:16):
And when I was talking to them, it was I
kind of knew this, but it was brought into sharper
focus for me. The cost. I mean, they told me
that they were trying to retire a debt of forty
fifty dollars of debt they owed for archival footage from
NBC and other network news organizations. Is that true for
you as well? Meaning? Do you find these costs are
just because I, for one, belief that old network news
(31:38):
organizations the materials should be made free under fair use.
These are public airways. Yeah, well it is. It can
be astronomical the cost associated with archive. I mean, we're
lucky enough with this film that it was. It was
fully financed by Netflix, who covered those costs for us,
so so we're not dead on it. But it can
(31:59):
really make her a a lot of terrific documentaries out there.
I think more people are leaning into fair use, but
there has been a few instances of backlash against that
where people chase them down and demand being paid, you know,
particularly for these historical documentaries. It's it's a real cost.
(32:20):
It's like people who when I was working more consistently
on the issue of campaign financial reform with creative coalition
organizations I worked with years ago in the nineties, from
disparate sources, we learned that the one of the great
enemies of campaign finance reform is the National Association of
Broadcasters because these affiliates in the network TV world. Someone
(32:44):
said to me, there are stations in this country that
make seventy of their annual budget during one election cycle
and selling political advertising. They do not want to take
the money out of politics, and the n a B,
the National Association War is constantly finding campaign finance law changes. Yeah, listen,
I so appreciate your work in that area too, because
I think, you know, when just circling back to your
(33:06):
point about you know, who are these leaders now like
Defasio who are advocating for us. I think it's it's
hard given the system that we have to really produce
and and encourage people who are who are in it
exclusively for the public interest, right. I mean, that's those
are the types of people who you want to be
(33:26):
driven to politics as people who are going to make
the world a better place, but instead they're often driven
there because of money, and that's not really the reason
you want people ultimately in that in that position. So
I think there's a lot still to be done, obviously
with campaign finance reform in this country. Which film for
(33:47):
you was the most difficult to put together as a film,
What was the biggest challenge. Well, I think the hardest
one for me was ethel you know, the stakes were
so high and it was so deeply personal. You know,
I had to look through lots of footage. We're talking
about archive footage, you know, some of which was extraordinary
(34:07):
and beautiful and so fun to see and just you know,
gave me a depth of understanding of my family and
my father, who I never met. You know, just watching
him in this footage and a lot of footage has
never been seen before. Was was a really beautiful experience
for me. But it was also emotionally challenging and difficult,
(34:31):
and you know, I wanted to ultimately make a film
that showed, you know, the challenges and the difficulties that
my mother in particular went through and faced, but also
you know, to celebrate her because I think that for
so many people in our family, with a focus on
(34:51):
Robert Kennedy, John F. Kennedy, Teddy Kennedy, but there's not
as much focus on the women, right and there. You know,
my aunt unit started the Special Olympics. She's contributed enormously
and but she hasn't quite gotten that same level of attention,
and nor has my mother. And so many people when
they introduced me, they say, oh, this is Robert Kennedy's daughter,
(35:12):
and I'm like, well, my mother actually raised me, and
you know, she played a pretty big part in like
who I Am. So part of it was like, I
think she deserves the spotlight at least for a moment,
like at least understood. Yeah, and to help people understand
her contribution because she was also her nature was to
(35:33):
kind of stand behind and not you know, be the
one on the microphone and be the one sort of
at the front line. So anyway, I think just for
me personally, the stakes were higher on that one and
and it was more challenging for me. What are you
working on next? I'm working on a couple of projects.
I've got another film with Netflix that is about a
(35:56):
volcanic eruption that I'm doing right now, and then I've
got a film about the global refugee crisis that Yes,
these are the main ones I'm focused on, and I'm
very excited to, you know, have this film coming out
on Netflix, and UM committed to getting as many eyes
on it as possible. Now, Last Days of Vietnam was in.
(36:19):
How many of these films Ethel was in. I can't
believe it. But if these last films, have most of
them been with Netflix. Now, this is my first film
that I've directed with Netflix. Last Days was with PBS,
Ethel was with HBO, did a film about NASA with
the Discovery Channel. Let me just say I like that.
(36:40):
I have such admiration and respect for you. You're such
a talented artist, and you've always committed yourself to making
the world a better place. And you have such a
love for people and heart that is more open and
more generous than anybody I know. And I just have
(37:02):
such deep admiration and respect for you. Might love to
your mom, Will you take care of Thank you? Rory Kennedy.
Her documentary Downfall, The Case against Boeing, is available now
on Netflix. This episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Zack McNeice,
and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Here's the
(37:26):
Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.
Host
Alec Baldwin
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