The Soul of Wealth w/ Daniel Crosby #893

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
and today we're talking about the Soul of Wealth with
doctor Daniel Crosby.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
That's right, Doctor Daniel Crosby is making a rare second
appearance here on the podcast, because when you write multiple
fantastic books on investing in personal finance, we're gonna want
to have you back on again. And actually so on
the note of books, last time we talked with Daniel
about how to understand the many different psychological, the different
sociological factors that impact how it is that we invest

(00:47):
all in an attempt to be more successful investors. But
this time like we're taking an even wider view. We're
discussing his new book, The Soul of Wealth, which is
all about finding balance between financial wealth and then that
true soulful wealth, So not just about getting better at investing,
but just honestly, like better at life. And we're going
to talk about how important of a role relationships our
health or how we spend our time, how big of

(01:09):
a role that those play in our pursuit of happiness.
Doctor Daniel Crosby is a psychologist. He's the chief behavioral
officer at Orion Advisor Solutions and we are excited for
him to join us today. Daniel, thanks for making the
time to speak with us. Man.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Hey, guys, thanks for having me back.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
We're excited to chat with you again. Daniel. And the
first question we ask everybody who comes on the show,
you know because you've been on the show before, is like,
what do you like to splurge on? What's your craft
beer equivalent? Matt and I like to spend what some
people would say is an ungodly amount on craft beer,
but it's okay because we're still saving, investing for the future.
But yeah, what's that splurge for you?

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Okay, let's hope my wife doesn't listen to the show
because it's baseball cards. And I know that's really dorky
and juvenile, but it is baseball cards. In during COVID,
I think, like everyone else, I went down the rabbit
hole of nostalgia and got super into baseball cards, and
I honestly treat them like an alternative asset class like

(02:06):
I tried and diversify, got a whole punch list of
things I want to own, and it has been such
a fun hobby for me to pick up. Just since
twenty twenty.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Man, I remember trying to get my hands on that
Dale Murphy Rookie card when I was like, I don't know,
eight years old or something like that.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
That was the That was the hot card. Kik Graffy
Junior was my hero growing up, even though he wasn't
in Atlanta brave like still he had the sweetest swing
of all time.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, beautiful swing. That Griffy card for I mean, I'm
older than you guys, but that for people of a
certain age, that those the upper deck Griffy Rookie was
the card. And that Dale Murphy upper Deck Rookie Rookie card. No,
not the rookie card. He has an error card that's
super sought after that's an upper deck card as well.
So that's very much on my list.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
So if you know what you're doing in this, like
for real, can you make money? Because my brother in
law I never really believed him, but he's into basketball
cards and he's telling me he's flu in him on
eBay and stuff like that. If you're good at this,
can you really make money swapping buy and selling baseball cards?

Speaker 3 (03:06):
So I have a friend who made a million dollars
last year flipping baseball cards.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, okay, what kind of what kind of friend is this?
Can you teach me? Is this like a normal dude
or like, what's what's the story here?

Speaker 3 (03:17):
Yeah, it's a it's a very normal dude who lost
his corporate job during the pandemic got into it at
the same time. There was this huge bubble during the pandemic.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
The Dune money phase of No, but this was.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
This was last year where the bubble at burst somewhat,
and he's still making good money flipping cards. So I
have another buddy who treats it much more seriously. And
I mean, he just has a lot more money than me,
but he he takes it very seriously. And yeah, you can.
You can definitely make money doing this.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way to justify what it
is that you're doing, because you're like, I don't have
a problem. He's got a problem.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
And then you get into Pokemon cards and you can't
explain that to your wife.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
You know, when you're making a million bucks, I guess
you've got a decent argument for it. Yeah, you have
a better understanding of what those cards are worth. Here's
a segue. Not everyone has a good understanding of personal finances,
money or I'm thinking about money and wealth, Daniel, because
I think a lot of folks use those terms interchangeably.
A lot of folks think that money and I'm talking
more like the Alah, Gordon, Gecko and Wall Street kind

(04:14):
of money. How Like the pursuit of that is more
of a solace endeavor. So kind of give us a
quick little introduction here to your book. How would you
respond to someone who says that pursuing financial wealth isn't
worth the time?

Speaker 3 (04:26):
So, you know, I think there's a I'm a big
Victor Frankel fan. He has a quote that was sort
of the catalyst for the whole book, and the quote goes,
you know, ever more people have the means to live,
but no meaning to live for. And I think that's
really where we find ourselves as a society. I mean,
we've never been richer as a globe, and yet when

(04:47):
you look around, I'm gen X, you know, gen X millennials,
gen z on down fifty one percent or greater of
these different age cohorts say they're lonely and disconnected. So
we live at this time where abundance has never been
more widespread, but there's just a great deal of sort
of psychological, spiritual and happiness poverty, And so that was

(05:13):
sort of the problem I was trying to solve with this,
because I don't think the pursuit of wealth has to
be soulless, and I think there are a lot of
ways that money can give some richness to life more holistically,
but we haven't figured it out yet, and that's something
I think we need to work on.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, I mean, I think when you look at an
amalgamation of happiness studies, they all say sort of different things,
and so you kind of have to draw inferences from
kind of all the different studies to figure out, well,
how does more money impact people's happiness. Earlier in the book,
early on, you say, quote, we commit so much effort
trying to get to a financial number for retirement. Yeah,

(05:50):
we often overlook other elements of life that bring joy.
And I think that's like something Matt and I have
found at least at times, especially earlier on in the
Fire movement, that wealth is all about the number, and
because of that, people are missing out on life in
the meantime trying to hit that retirement number. But if
wealth isn't about the numbers, what is it about.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
Yeah. You know, one model that I talk about in
the book that I think is a pretty good proxy
for this answer is Martin Seligman's work in positive psychology.
He has a model called Perma, and each of those
five letters stands for some element of human flourishing. The
P in perma is for positive emotion, and that's kind

(06:29):
of like just having fun, right, That's like eating an
ice cream cone, buying a beach house, going for a walk,
you know, going to a movie. And money does a
really great job of helping us have fun. So that's
one place that money helps, and that's where we sort
of over index and overfocus as a society. But if
you look at the other four facets of a life

(06:50):
well lived, You've got engagement, which is deep work or
like a sort of an all engrossing hobby. You've got
the R is for relationships, which are the most you know,
the most reliable predictor of human flourishing. You've got M,
which is meaning working for some higher purpose, a broader
you know, something, something bigger than yourself or bigger than money.

(07:13):
And advancement, which is all about maximizing your human potential
being being better tomorrow than you were today. So you know, again,
when we're preparing for retirement, if we're involved in the
fire movement, the focus tends to be almost exclusively on
getting that number so we can get that first p

(07:35):
in perma. But a lot of times those other four
facets are pretty roundly ignored. And and look, there's there's
things that money can do there, right, I mean, in
some ways if you think about something like relationships, Yeah,
money can help you take a trip with your kids,
but it can't buy you your kids love you know,
So there's there's some sort of half truths around money

(07:57):
when it comes to these different dimensions. But we really
tend to overfocus on that fun and leisure perspective and
leave more reliable paths to happiness on the table, right.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
I guess too, if you really don't love your job,
if you have enough money, you can go do work
that you enjoy more, that pays you less. Like that's
another So it can certainly influence those things. But sometimes
I think you're probably right that that hyper focus on
that first part leads to a lot of unhappiness in
those other areas.

Speaker 3 (08:23):
It's true, but I find that so often people don't
do it because if you know, it's like if they're
if they're hyper focused, they just keep moving the goalpost.
You know. There's there's another thing too, you know. Gandhi
has this quote that's basically paraphrasing, you know, to the
poor person, bread is God, because if you don't have
enough money to sort of provide for the necessities of life,

(08:45):
you're not sitting around contemplating you know, the meaning of
life or God or purpose or anything else. But so, yeah,
money can free us up to think about loftier things.
But a lot of times we achieve that level of
comfort and we just keep going for more and more
and more. We lack the creativity to go after something

(09:06):
a little more enduring and a little more lasting.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Okay, so it seems like finances are kind of most
positively correlated to that positive emotion one than very next
chapter in your book, you talk about the power of giving.
So how is it that the exact opposite of acquiring wealth,
in hoarding cash, is actually a crucial part of a
well rounded life. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (09:26):
This I loved writing this chapter because one of the
things that I was looking for in the book is
places where lots of cultures and lots of traditions agreed
upon a concept like it feels like you're onto something
there And basically every culture in the world has some
sort of saying or some sort of aphorism around the
idea that like, hey, if you give it away, more

(09:49):
comes back to you. And that is of course not
strictly true in the mathematical sense. But when you look
at when you look at people's perceptions of wealth, health,
like their wellness. You know, are you financially well? There's
two predictors of that. One is, of course, like the
money you have in the bank, which that makes sense.

(10:10):
Your actual level of wealth is a number one predictor
of that, but one a slightly behind it is the
level at which you are generous. And from the lowest
income stratum to the highest, the more people give away,
whether they're rich, poor, or somewhere in between, the richer

(10:33):
they feel and the happier they are. And importantly, people
misapprehend this. When you look at the studies, better than
ninety percent of people think that giving money away will
bum them out or not make them happy at spending
money on themselves, and it's just not true. And so
I think when every philosophy, every religion every great wisdom

(10:57):
tradition in every time and place around the world, old
stumbles onto something like, hey, being generous is good for you. Selfishly,
it's good for you. I think you sit up and listen.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, that makes sense. It's sort of like, Yeah, I
like how you said stumbling upon it. It's like you've
discovered this like a common source code regardless of your background,
your country, your religion, and there's got to be something
true about that if it resonates with so many different people.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
I'm I trying to convince my kids about that, Daniel
two when it comes to giving stuff away, and they're like, oh,
I don't know if I can part with that, but
they've got a million of that thing, And just I think, yeah,
not only is it the declutter when you walk in
your room you know what, you can find the thing
that you actually want, but I think there is something
really incredible that kids can experience too in giving away stuff,
and adults as well. Yeah. I love that you talked

(11:43):
about giving in the way you did. I also love
that you cover the topic of emotion, but you covered
it in an interesting way, like you talk about how
emotions can be like the downfall for investors, but you
also don't suggest a stoic response. And I think sometimes
it is it's one or the other. It's like, hey,
emotion's going to ruin you, so uh, you know, get
a stiff upper lip and avoid being avoid being emotional.

(12:05):
But you think there is still a role for emotions,
that the emotions can play in our personal finances, right.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, there is. I'm going to talk about the kids
in giving thing for a minute. I'll get to emotion.
But there was really cool research in that same chapter
that showed that kids as young as too start to
see real happiness dividends when they when they give stuff away,
but only if one condition was met, and it had
to be costly giving. So it had to be like

(12:33):
their toy. It's not like mom and dad gives you
five dollars to give to your friend or whatever. It
has to be there has to be sacrifice involved, and
we find that at every age. Like so, this idea
of costly giving and like giving till it stings a
little bit is actually i think one for adults and
kids alike to keep in mind. So yeah, so just

(12:55):
a quick aside there, I love that. Yeah, getting getting
to the emotion piece, yeah, I think a lot of
times were counseled, and I think behavioral finances, the chief
culprit here is to just remain very stoic, to sort
of divorce all emotion from our financial lives. But when
we look at it, first of all, we know from

(13:16):
the work of Demasio, that it is impossible that every emotion,
excuse me, every decision has an emotional substrate. And there's
just literally no decision that is so low stakes that
it doesn't have an emotional component to it. So, first
of all, it's impossible. In my book The Behavioral Investor,
I shared a study where people were hooked up to

(13:38):
fMRI machines, so like brain scan machines, and they showed
them all kinds of different stimuli, so like sex, death, drugs,
you know, money, religion, all the stuff you know you
shouldn't talk about at a party. And what they found
and they measured the excitatory power in the brain, and

(13:59):
what they found is that money had more excitatory power
in the brain than sex, than politics, than religion, than
any of these sort of other taboo topics. So you know,
point one is that every decision is emotional, and point
two is that the financial decisions are literally the most
emotional of any decisions we make. So what do we

(14:21):
do with this? Well, what I suggest in the book
is for look for ways where you can make that
emotion work for you. So there was one study out
of Canada where they had people look at a picture
of their spouse and their children before making a financial decision,
and the people who did saved more than twice as

(14:42):
much as a control group. Right because they introduced emotion
into it. And you said, hey, like this hurts to save, Like,
we experience saving as a present loss because you can't
do fun stuff with the money you're saving. But there's
something bigger involved and that emotion is what got them there.

(15:04):
We also know that there's ways that you can just
make emotion work for you. Financial advisors who help their
clients sort of daydream and make a goal visceral save
dramatically more than people who just said, you know, hey,
I want to save two million dollars for retirement, versus like,

(15:25):
hey I want to retire to Aspen, Like, well, what
does the cabin look like? Well, oh it's got this
thatched roof and blah blah blah, Like what does it
smell like? When you walk out in the morning, you
know what kind of coffee are you going to have?
So actually taking them there, making it more visceral and
more emotional. They were over seventy percent more likely to
save than the people who had the more sort of

(15:47):
stayed boring goal. So you shouldn't be emotional, like massively
emotional and in many respects in many parts of your
financial life. But if there are ways where you can
introduce some emotion, I say you.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Go for it.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Is this also, I'm trying to remember when you when
you talked about naming, like naming different accounts, like let's say,
instead of like having a generic IRA to instead name
it something like whatever it is that you're you're looking
to achieve. Yeah, within retirement, that's it.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
That's a form of that, that's a form of introducing
both purpose and emotion to it. People who named their
accounts were ten times less likely to go to cash
in a choppy market. They were also had fifteen percent
more wealth than their same income peers in a morning
Star study. So pretty powerful stuff. Introducing that purpose and

(16:39):
emotion tying it back to our dollars.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
You know, that's really cool, Like because yeah, just putting
as simple as something putting a name to something. It's
like if you got to adopted a dog and you
just called a dog, your connection to that dog would
probably be I don't know, quite generic, yeah exactly, like
give me your dog. Yeah, what do you call them? Fido?
You start to give them love that dog.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
A little bit. Fido is more like an actual dog name, right,
Like today people name their dogs and their cats like
human names. And that that's when you really that's when
you start stopping. You start dropping the big money on
some of those that medical bills because you're thinking, well,
I got to do anything and to keep money right right.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
At one point in the book to Day, you say
you don't need more knowledge, you just need to get going.
And I'm curious to pick your brain on that because
on one on what I kind of sort of agree
with you, But isn't there also a lot of room
for significant mistakes, like I don't know. We get questions
all the time, Hey, I just got this really awful
insurance product and it costs a whole lot of money.
What should I do? How do I get out of this?
We're investing in like high cost funds that are maybe

(17:37):
the flavor of the month, but they're not the best
thing to be in your portfolio for the next three decades.
So how do you think about that dichotomy of you
don't necessarily need more knowledge, you just need to get going,
but also without enough knowledge you can make some significant mistakes.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah, there there is I think I think we probably
are in violent agreement here. There is definitely a place
for education, And the biggest place for education is in
knowing what not to do, right. I think a lot
of people think that that the benefit of education is
you're going to know every twist and turn of your

(18:11):
financial life. The biggest benefit of education financial education is
avoiding big blunders, right, like, oh that's what a fund
should cost, this one costs way too much, or you know,
that's what I should be paying an advisor. This one's way,
you know, not not doing what they should be doing
at all. And so I think the highest and best

(18:31):
use is meta knowledge, which is sort of knowing what
you don't know and knowing when you need help and
knowing when you need to bring someone in. So there
is absolutely a place a place for education, and I
don't mean to undermine that at all. But once you
have sort of the fundaments of a basic working knowledge.

(18:52):
And I think a lot of people do right. They
know that, you know, they need to be saving, they
need to be investing, they need to be diversifying. And
I think what's needed after that is courage, because there's
something called the knowing doing gap that's really pronounced in
human behavior. And the example that I like to use

(19:15):
is nurses. Nurses smoke at double the level of the
general population. And if you you know, I'm not recommending
that you do this, but if you go up to
an you know, if you go up to a nurse
who's smoking outside the hospital and say like, hey, should
you like, is this a great idea? You know? You know,

(19:36):
I think to a person, they're going to tell you, no,
this isn't a great idea. But you know, they have
hard jobs, they have stressful jobs. We don't pay them enough,
and so you know, they try and get a smoke break.
And I think that's true of many things. You know,
there's some large I think it's twenty to twenty five
percent of people cheat on their spouse, and you know,

(19:57):
none of them are like, yeah, this is good, this
is what I should be doing. You know, I think
there's a lot of cases where we know what to
do and we just don't do the right thing because
we don't have support or we don't have courage. So yes,
by all means, you do need to educate yourself, especially
on just the biggest pitfalls in your financial life, because

(20:19):
I think not making big mistakes is even more important
than shooting the lights out. But once you've acquired that knowledge,
which I think you know could take. If people listen
to probably fifty back episodes of your podcast and read
a couple of good books, they'd be there. And like,
after that point, you just need the courage or the support.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
Oh I thought you were going to say, after that point,
they should still keep listening to this podcast just for
the entertainment value, right.

Speaker 3 (20:47):
Still keep listening, keep listening.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Initiate the play. But not like we got to count
those down, those guys. But I mean that raises the
question then, like how would you reckon for folks to
find that courage? You already talk about tying some of
the different goals and things that you're trying to achieve
with your money to purpose, how to tie it to emotion?
Are there other ways that you would recommend for folks

(21:09):
to sort of dig up and unearth and find some
of that courage to be able to do the right thing.

Speaker 3 (21:13):
Yeah, I think two things to keep in mind. One
is to keep a strength based approach, and then two
is to do it incrementally. Right, A lot of times
when we're making change, you know, if it's a new
Year's resolution or whatever, we try and do the most
miserable thing possible. So, like the three of us were
talking before about I've lost some weight this year, and

(21:36):
you were like, oh, did you start running? And I
said no, because I hate running, right, So that is
not what I chose to do because I really hate it.
But I think a lot of times we try and
go for the most hardcore version of the change, where
we're trying to make take whatever good you're doing and
do ten percent more of it. Take your existing strengths,

(21:58):
magnify them a little bit, and do more of what
you're already good at. Is the first thing, the first
thing that I would say, and then you know, the
second thing is to do it incrementally, to go back,
you know, to go back to our new Year's resolution idea.
There the reason that only eighteen percent of people follow
through on their New Year's resolutions. Is because you know,

(22:20):
we set a goal on December thirty first to run
a marathon, and then you know, on January second, we
run ten miles on you know, you know on January
third we run three miles because you know, we've got
shin splints now, and then by January fifth, we haven't
gotten off the couch again because we're just done right,

(22:42):
because we over exerted ourselves. So take something you're already
good at, do ten percent more of it, and continue
to build on that momentum. A behavior in motion tends
to stay in motion. A behavior at rest tends to
stay at rest. So just keep that in mind.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
I think it's good advice. Yeah, the couch to five
k It might sound a little lame if you've got
massive goals, but the truth is that's what's going to
help you get there. Like, start with that first and
then yeah, you'll eventually reach this marathon goal is just
going to take time. Right, We've got more to get
to with you, Daniel. There's so much good stuff in
this book. The book is The Soul of Wealth, Fifty
reflections on money and meaning. We've only covered a handful

(23:17):
so We'll get to some more with doctor Crosby right
after this.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Right, we are back from the break with doctor Daniel
Crosby talking about the soul of wealth as we answer
some of the big questions in life. Daniel, in a
book like this, right that the Soul of Wealth, You're
gonna talk about the relationship between money and happiness. And
there have been so many studies that oftentimes are contradictory.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
I feel like there's just.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
A there's been another one recently that's making a case
for the fact that no, in fact, high earners do
see increased levels of happiness when it comes.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
To or they get a pay bomp. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, when they do get a paid bomp, they do
see increased levels of happiness. And then like previous studies.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Were like seventy K, Yeah, any more money, you don't need.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
It, Like the data keeps flip flopping, But like, what's
your read on the correlation I guess between happiness and
higher levels of income.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
It is quite complicated, And that seventy five K study
really had a nice run, and people like me were
sort of shouting it from the rooftops because I think
it conformed to many of our prior assumptions about money,
which was, hey, money kind of flat lines passed, you know,
about about seventy five thousand bucks a year because you

(24:31):
can buy the necessities of life. Well, there's a few
caveats there, right. The first caveat is that it matters
a great deal how you measure happiness. You know, there's
no blood test for happiness, and even the construct of
happiness is a little fuzzy. So in some studies where
it's plateaus which around what would now be about one

(24:52):
hundred thousand dollars seventy five a few years ago, one
hundred thousand dollars a year, what we see is there's
no not much of a bump in need reduction, because
one measure of happiness is sort of not having needs.
You know, I'm not hungry, I'm not cold, I'm not thirsty,
I'm not tired, I'm not scared. You know, there's a

(25:13):
level of happiness that comes when those needs are reduced,
and indeed, that happens pretty quickly. Like at about one
hundred thousand dollars a year, you have enough to eat,
you live in a safe home, you can buy a mattress,
so the needs are reduced. So if that's all you
want out of your measure of happiness, then yes, that

(25:34):
is true. What we find though, is if you measure
happiness a little more holistically, a little more qualitatively, they'll
have people fill out self reports, so they say, hey,
Matt and Joel like, write me a paragraph on how
you live in mattin Joel like, write me a paragraph
how are you doing? And they find that in this case,

(25:55):
these qualitative subjective self reports of happiness basically up into
the right forever. You know, they measure it up to
half a million dollars a year because there's just not
a ton of people that make more than that a year.
But yeah, so basically from zero to half a million
dollars a year at every income bump up, people are

(26:15):
happier than the one below. Right, So that's a little
bit different measure of happiness. Now here's another interesting twist
on this. The studies have also found that about fifteen
percent of people are never happy.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
So there's I've met those people, Daniel, I met some Yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Let everyone just populate the person you're thinking of your lot. Yeah,
so about fifteen percent of people are happy, are not
happy at any level of income, and are completely impervious
to money as a predictor of their happiness. So this
is kind of like a you know, wherever you go there,

(26:54):
you are a sort of thing, and you just need
to work on yourself and not trying to make more money.
We also know now that how you spend your money
has a material impact on how happy it makes you.
So a car is a great example, like a a
big ticket purchase. If you buy a car because you

(27:17):
want to stunt on your neighbors or you want to
impress you know, someone that you have a crush on.
The studies show that the impact of buying that car
is a very short bump in happiness followed by sort
of a flatlining, and the process by which that happens
is called habituation. You basically just get used to it, right,

(27:40):
It's like, oh, you see a nice jump in happiness,
and then your car just becomes your car, right, It's
just now your grocery getter, even if it's a Ferrari
or something cool. And so that doesn't buy you much happiness.
But if you buy that car to join the Atlanta
you know, cars and coffee, then suddenly it does buy

(28:03):
you happiness. Because relationships are the most reliable path to happiness.
If there are ways you can spend money to increase
your relationships, right, a trip with family, joining some sort
of civic or club organization, buying a car or something
to get entree into a car club. All of that

(28:26):
buys happiness. And then we've got all the done and
norton stuff, right. We know that people who spend people
who spend money on getting out of stuff they hate
and get more of their time back. That buys you happiness.
People who spend money in ways that are consistent with
the person they want to be. You know, I've got

(28:48):
all these fancy guitars up here on my wall, and
I am really mediocre as a guitarist. I'm like, my
guitars are two standard deviations better than my talent, you know.
But but I want to be seen as the kind
of guy who plays guitar, and so like they they

(29:11):
they buy me some happiness. Ye. So yeah, spending money
in ways that bring about relationships, time, freedom, in ways
that are consistent with our personality. And then of course
giving money away is another big big one. Those are
all consistently ways we can buy happiness. So money protects
us like low levels of wealth predictably get us misery,

(29:36):
but whether higher levels of wealth get us happiness has
a great deal to do with how we spend it.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
So for me, it's having not having to break my
own leaves because I raked so many when I was
a kid, and I was like, never again. And it's
apropos this time of year because we're getting into the
leaf season.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Hey, because you can hear the leaf blowers in the background.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
Close to the background, and then there will be somebody
in my house doing that, thankfully, because my parents maybe
do too much growing up. Daniel, You're right about our
tendencies to mimic the people around us, sometimes to just
to impress, but other times it's just literally to live
like the people who are our neighbors or our friends,
and that can of course have potentially positive effects in

(30:16):
some ways if you're mimicking good habits, or negative effects
on the topic of money, if you're trying to keep
up with the Joneses. So, yeah, talk about mimicry, why
we're tempted to do it, and how that can impact
our finances.

Speaker 3 (30:27):
Yeah. So if you if you look at what makes
us why we're the top of the food chain, right
why we why we are the animal to sort of
beat all animals. The reason is that we work together.
You know, we don't have a lot of the gifts
of the rest of the animal kingdom. We're not strong,
we don't have sharp teeth, we don't have cool fur.

(30:48):
You know, we just we're not as tough as the
rest of the animal kingdom.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Speaking for yourself, danged, I know.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
Sorry, we do have a new we do have a
new home gym on the podcast. We're trying to get that,
we're trying to get that animal power. But yeah, we're
we're just not as physically tough as much of the
animal kingdom. So the thing that we have to do
is cooperate and work together. And we are so profoundly

(31:15):
wired to mimic each other and to follow each other
that it can get us in some really good places
and some really bad places. So in terms of the
really bad places, you know, the concept here is called mimesis,
and Luke Burgess wrote a great wrote a great sort
of summary of the work on mimesis if you want

(31:36):
to check that out. But you know, mimesis is basically
just wanting something because other people want it, you know,
and we see this with like teenagers and fashion trends,
right of course, like I, why do you want that?
Well because my friends have it, right, But but it
happens to all of us, and in fact, we see
it a lot. You know, I work with a lot

(31:57):
of financial advisors, and a lot of times when you
ask someone in a discovery meeting like okay, well what
is your what is your financial goal? It's going to
be like, well, you know, I want I want to
retire with three million dollars, Like, well, why three million?
Well because my brother in law has two million. You know,
You're like, oh, well I want to boat. You know,

(32:18):
well why do you want to boat? Well, my neighbor
just got a boat and it looks cool. So a
lot of times, if we really examine our financial wants,
they really have come from another place in time, Like
it may have been how we were brought up, but
our parents taught us to value what we see in
our neighbors, what we see in our friends, and it

(32:38):
can become very tricky, Like you know, you really have
to give some deep thought and some deep conversation to
trying to figure out what you really want and make
sure you're not have your ladder propped up against the
wrong wall, so to speak. The other like obvious way
that we mimesis and sort of fough aping what other

(33:01):
people do gets us sideways is in markets, right, if
we follow people into crowded trades and you know, jump
into bubbles and all the craziness that we saw happening,
you know, sort of in and around the pandemic. But
if we understand the power of other people, surrounding ourselves
with people who have the same goals and ambitions of

(33:21):
us as us can be a super powerful thing. You know.
I write in the book about how people with a
mentor make dramatically more money than people without a mentor
because they've surrounded themselves with someone who has gotten to
where they want to go. You know, we also know
that when we look at the behavior change data for

(33:45):
weight loss. Again, for people who are trying to lose weight,
the two best predictors of weight loss are A do
you weigh yourself daily so like sort of that daily
daily feedback, and then B has one of the five
people you are closest to lost weight recently. So people

(34:06):
who are surrounded by people who gain weight tend to
gain weight, And vice versa with losing weight, and the
same thing is true of money. So understanding how powerfully
influenced you are by other people that this is literally
the thing above all other things that you were wired
to do. When you start to understand that, you start

(34:28):
to get thoughtful about who you surround yourself with and
even what sorts of ideas you put in your head,
you know, the kind of books you read, the kind
of media you consume. Because all of this has a
material impact on the way you move through the world.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
It makes so much sense. Yeah, when we were talking
about happiness a second ago, you kind of mentioned how
buying back time and I think you wrote that this
is the quote unquote ultimate purchase And so for Joel,
that's not raking leaves. But why is that the case
for folks? And so two questions here. Is it simply
because the fact that we have such a limited, undefined,
limited amount of time here on this planet? Is it

(35:05):
that simple? But then my second question, as folks are
trying to evaluate what types of time that they are
looking to buy back, how would you recommend for them
to evaluate evaluate the types that they should consider.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Yeah, so you know the the article about this, you
know it's like, you don't want to be rich, you
want to be free. And this came to me when
I was reading an article about Elon Musk, Right, So
I mean, I can't depending on the day, the richest
guy in the world, right and and you know, a
couple hundred billion dollars and he was talking about, Yeah,

(35:40):
I have a standing meeting at nine pm with my
like my lieutenants. And I read this article and I
felt so bad for him, and I'm like, this guy's
life sucks in nine pm on a Saturday every week,
Like I'm I'm on the couch, like I'm out for

(36:00):
a walk, I'm hanging with my family, I'm doing something fun,
and you have a meeting, Like what what is the
point of all this money if you don't have the
accompanying freedom. So that was what sort of tripped it
for me. And look, maybe he truly loves what he
does so much that you know, it's it's a joy

(36:21):
for him. I don't know. He also has like eleven kids,
so maybe he should go hang out with one of them.
But you know, that's what kind of tripped it for me.
But yeah, on the one hand, yes, it's like all
the all the folks. The aphorisms are true, right, it's
the one thing that you know, they're not making any
more of his time, and it's this sort of precious

(36:44):
limited resource. That's that's all true. But you know, I
think it's also self determination. You know, if you if
you sort of move up Maslow's hierarchy. One of the
things that wealth does is allow us to sort of
I'm that ladder of human achievement, because for people at
very low levels of wealth, which is a lot of

(37:06):
the world, you're you're sort of always struggling at that
base of Maslow's hierarchy. You're trying to get warm, you're
trying to get full, you're trying to get safe, and
there's I mean, look, there's nothing, there's nothing wrong with that.
That's that's dignified. That's a dignified pursuit. But if you
have achieved enough success that you can move past that,

(37:28):
you should, right and you should focus on things like
exercising your time, your freedom, your agency, your intellect, and
things that help you grow, that help the world become
a better place. And so I just think it's a
it's a lofty and a good use of a life

(37:48):
to use that freedom that you can you can buy
yourself out of, you know, the need to always be
focused on this and focus on solving bigger problems for
yourself and the world world.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
I do think too, that buying back your time can
be a slippery slope if it's not thought of properly.
Like I think about someone saying, I'm going to buy
my time back, so I'm gonna order the door dash delivery,
and not only am I saving the time of having
to cooking meal, I'm saving the time of having to
clean dishes and guess what, I don't have to go
pick up the food. Either a whole lot of justification there,
and then I can watch extra Netflix that night or
something like that. And So I think that there's maybe

(38:24):
a difference in the in how much it might you
might be willing to spend to buy back your time
and on on what things might be might make sense
from a monetary perspective to purchase. So I don't know,
do you have any thoughts on that making good decisions
about or and maybe knowing, Hey, I'm saying I'm buying
back my time, but I'm actually just spending money improperly,

(38:46):
and maybe not even have the money to buy back
this time.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
Yeah, I think anything can be mechanized and over optimized
to the point that it's totally soulless. Right, Like, I'm
I I make enough money that from a strictly rationalist,
mechanistic perspective, it doesn't make sense from a buy back
your time perspective for me to raise my children like

(39:13):
I could always cool. Yeah, Like I could always pay
someone to take care of my children, who makes, you know,
a great deal less money than I do. But I
want to take care of my children because I love them,
and I grow from that and they grow from that hopefully. Right.
So I think there's a lot of things like that
in life. I think there are certain things we need

(39:34):
to do because they're the right thing, or because they're
good for us, or they help us grow or they
build character, and so you know, I personally, Look, we
all live in the South. It's too hot, Like I
don't cut my yard, Like that's that's not the way
that my character is going to grow. But I will clean.
But I will clean a bathroom with the best of them. Right.

(39:54):
So I think I think over optimization, you can you
can go to the extreme other end of this thing
by trying to over optimize your life and going, well,
my hourly rate is this, So this activity is beneath me.
Some stuff you just need to do to be a
good human. Yeah, and that's you know, that's a hard

(40:15):
line to draw, but I believe it's a generally good principle.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
And yeah, I mean, I think there's something there about
being a good human and I think you're kind of
alluding to that when you were talking about solving problems
in the world and making the world a better place, right, Like,
there's sort of like more of this noble calling. But
at the same time, I think you can kind of
I feel comfortable holding that at the same time that
I say, well, it's just because I want to live
my life in a certain way, and ultimately that maybe

(40:41):
with I peel back the layers, I can see that like, oh,
it is raising a family. Oh, it's having kids. It's
some of these things that are a little bit more
of a noble calling. But I think that there's an
argument to be made for folks who just want to
live their life a certain way. And I guess as
I talk through this, like we often talk about entrepreneurship
and owning your own business, and oftentimes I think it's

(41:01):
not necessarily a financial reward that you would receive from that.
It is the ability to own your own time and
to call the shots and to sort of dictate how
it is that you would to live your life. Have
you seen that in folks in your research?

Speaker 3 (41:13):
Yeah, I absolutely think so. And I mean, go, you
could apply it to giving. You could apply it to entrepreneurship.
You could apply it to giving. Like when it comes
to giving, I talk in the book about having a
diversified portfolio of giving, and part of that is your
own sweat, right, I mean, wherever I am, look, I

(41:34):
am strictly an ideas guy, Like I can't hammer a nail,
I can't saw a log, like I'm the least handy
person you would ever know. But a couple of times
a year, me and my clunky, lurpy, not coordinated self
will go, you know, we'll go volunteer somewhere. And I
also give money. Right from a perfectly rationalist, strictly functional perspective,

(42:00):
I should always write a check because give me. I
should only give money. But I but I still see
value in making myself uncomfortable, taking my kids to be uncomfortable,
to just you know, expose myself to different ways of being,
different ways of living, and to to give back, however feebly. Right.
So I do think you can. You know. Part of

(42:21):
the reason the book's title, The Soul of Wealth is
a little squishy, right, is because I think soul has
to enter into these conversations like, Yeah, when you're deciding
should should I be an entrepreneur? Part of that decision
should necessarily be financial, but part of it should be

(42:42):
a question of agency. Part of it should be a
question of like do I want to be the man
or woman in the arena, and like would you know,
would this help me be more of that? So I
think there's always soulful questions to be considered, and I
think we really lose our way when we when we
look at it in such an analytical, black and white way.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
Well said, no, I love that. Yeah, And sometimes you
just have to get out there and live life to
experience whether like there's just different facets of understanding that
we gain. I think by exposing ourselves to different arenas,
different sectors of life that maybe we're not even all
that good at.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, they're seeing things I would have said I hated
at one point in my life, and then I tried
it and I was like, oh, it's not that bad.
Actually I'm into that.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
And you realize you're probably a better person for having
tried those things rounded and even like what Daniel said,
saying too just exposing your kids to that because you
don't know what they're gonna like, what kind of person
that they are going to become, and so so much
of life I think when it comes to raising our
kids is helping them to become the best version of themselves,
and oftentimes that requires a whole lot of exposure and
to treat life like a golden corral sometimes.

Speaker 1 (43:42):
Matt, it's a little bit of everything.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Data. We got more that we want to get to.
I'm hoping to ask a quick question about delayed gratification.
We'll get to that more right after this.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
We're back in the break. We're still talking about the
squishy in this episode, the soul of wealth, which I
think Daniel talks about so well in his book, and
it's if you like bite sized books like by your bedstand,
this one's a good one to be kind of like,
I know, as you read learning more about money, but
the things that are deeper than money too, one of
the things you actually have a chapter Daniel called the

(44:21):
best way to learn about money is to teach about money.
And I'm just thinking, Let's say this is someone listening
to this podcast, this is their first episode of How
to Money, and they're like, wait a second, you guys
are already telling me I need to go teach other people
about money. That sounds really weird. I don't think I'm
ready for that. I don't know anything. What would you
say to that person?

Speaker 3 (44:37):
Yeah, So this this draws on something called the Fineman technique,
which I stole from from the Nobel Prize winning physicist
Richard Feyneman. But he was kind of a cheeky dude,
and so he would do this thing where he would
ask people, you know, he'd be like, hey, hey, do
you know how a toilet works? And they would go, yeah,

(44:59):
you know, like I, you know, I use a toilet
a couple times a day. I sure do know how
a toilet works. And he'd go, oh, okay, well great,
then then teach me, like tell you know, tell me
how a toilet works. And then of course we realize
we have no idea how a toilet works, right, like
we like we have no idea how anything in our
house works. And so what he encouraged people to do

(45:20):
was like a four step process. So basically, you select
a concept to learn, right, you select a concept to learn.
So I want to learn about, you know, investing. I
want to learn about index funds. Okay, cool? And then
you you read up, you watch, you learn, you listen,
and then you try and teach it to a novice. Right,

(45:40):
so I might. My youngest child is eight years old,
and I know you guys have kids, and it's like,
you know when a young kid asks you like what
does this word mean? And you kind of know, but
then you but then you know, but then you have
to explain it to them in really parsimonious terms and
you're like, I don't, I don't really, I don't really

(46:01):
understand this. Like my son is super into World War
two right now, and he keeps asking me all about
all these battles and I'm like, look, buddy, like I
just don't know. You know, He's asking me yesterday like
what was you know, what was Italy's contribution to World
War Two? And I was.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
Like, Dad, didn't you go to fourth grade? You're like, yeah,
A long time ago.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
Yeah, I'm like, I'm gonna have to read up on
Italy bud. So you select a concept to learn, you
teach it to a novice. When they inevitably ask you questions,
you review and fill in your gaps in the knowledge,
and then you simplify it further and you reduce clutter. So,
you know, teaching these concepts to a fellow novice, to

(46:44):
a young person is a really great way. And I
mean I say this every time I write a book,
and it is the gospel truth. The reason I write,
I mean it is the worst paying It is like
the hardest, worst paying thing could ever do. And the
reason I write is because it helps me know what

(47:06):
I believe. And I you know, I'm in a position
where I have to create technology and speak to experts,
and I have to be on the top of my game,
and there is no substitute for trying to write a
five page chapter on a topic and express the essence
of a topic in sort of a quick way to go, oh,

(47:28):
I don't really get this. You know, I don't really
understand this. So I love the refinement technique. Select a
concept to learn, teach it to a beginner, see what
they ask you, and where your gaps are and simplify
further and reduce the clutter.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
I love it all right, I'm getting to my delayed
gratification question, Daniel, because.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
Your gratification in response, I've delayed myself indeed. But you've
called it the skeleton key to a better life. But
it's one thing to know that and to hear that,
but to actually be told no that you can't have
something like that is not something that anybody wants to hear,
like when we definitely don't want to tell.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
It to ourselves. And so how can we get better
at delay gratification and not giving into the impulses in
the here now?

Speaker 3 (48:13):
Yeah, So there's a couple of things we can do.
Like when it comes to money, delaying gratification is tricky
because we experience it as a as a current loss.
And part of the reason we do that is because
we haven't gotten very in touch with our future selves.
So I talked earlier about the process of visualization and

(48:34):
emotion and making that future state more salient.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
If the smell, the smell of the cabin enaspen.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
The smell of the cabin enassmen exactly, man, So if
we can get a little bit better in touch with
that concept of saying like, hey, I'm not losing money today,
I'm just saving for a brighter tomorrow, and we can
get a little excited about that. The other thing that
we can do is tie rewards to various steps along

(49:03):
the way, right, you know, to to tie rewards to
various steps along the way. You know, I keep going
back to this because it's so been such a big
part of my life this year. But I've you know,
I've lost weight this year, a lot, lost quite a
bit of weight this year. And one of the fun
things about that was getting new getting new clothes, Like

(49:23):
I really like clothes, and you're like, oh, okay, well
hey if this, then that right, you know, tie little
rewards along the journey and get little steps along the way.
The other thing that we can do is make it incremental.
You know, when you tell people that the average person
listening to this podcast today, I'm gonna bump some people out.

(49:45):
Like we used to talk about being a millionaire as
though it was a big deal, Like effectively, everyone will
have to be a millionaire, you know, going forward to retire,
because to live even a modest life and retirement will
take seven figures, and so you know, breaking hearing that

(50:05):
is sort of overwhelming because you go, guys, I make
fifty grand a year, like, how you know, how can
I how can I save you know, a million or
millions of dollars? Well, you incrementalism is the answer. So
breaking that down is a big piece. And then finally
go back to the relationship piece, like take take the

(50:26):
journey with people who are going to the same place
as you. It makes it makes it a lot less painful.
But you know, every every good thing, as I talk
about in the in the chapter, whether you're talking about relationships,
physical fitness, financial wellness, every good thing in life comes
when we're able to delay gratification, and just about every

(50:46):
bad thing in life violence, you know, violence, addiction, crime,
all of these are sort of the inverse of that.
So it really is this skeleton key for us that
we'd be wise to take seriously.

Speaker 1 (51:00):
To mention debt and anxiety. Right, the more you frontload
some of those purchases, at least on the money side,
it's going to lead to those things. And those are
I mean, when you talk about people stress levels, money
has a lot to do with it. And if you
can delay gratification, save more, avoid purchasing some of those things.
You're going to be better off from that perspective, Daniel,
this was such a fun conversation. Where can our listeners

(51:21):
go to find out more about you and more to
find out about your brand new book.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
Yeah, the number one thing they should do is go
buy the Soul of Wealth and start having these squishy,
so soulful conversations. I'm Daniel Crosby PhD on LinkedIn and
at Daniel Crosby on Twitter.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
Nice, we'll make sure they'll link to all of that
with the book having just come out yesterday, Daniel, thanks
so much for chat with us today.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
Man, my pleasure. Guys.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
All right, Matt, that's a great combo with the good
doctor Daniel Crosby and.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
Doctor Crosby Medicine. Woman.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
Right, you watched that, Right, of course I did. It's
such a good show. That was like our family show
back in the Day's Jane Seymour that's right. Yeah, But
I love this topic and I think it's something. If
we have made any massive changes as hosts of the
How to Money podcast over since we since its inception,
I would say the biggest change is to focus more

(52:13):
on a holistic version of well being and wealth. And
so it's like nuts and bolts are still important. There's
a lot of like personal finance nerdery we got to
get into. But this stuff I think matters so much,
And as you're shrying me to build wealth, you can't
forget about this stuf.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yeah, and selfishly, I think these are probably more of
the kind of questions that we are also asking. So
with that, Joel's gonna go ahead and announce the new
name of our podcast, shift to more holistic. That's right approach. No,
we're gonna gt holistic money. We'll keep talking about how
to money, contribution limits and all that stuff. Yeah, what
was your big takeaway though? Did you have a there's
so many good nuggets, but did you have a specific takeaway.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
I'm better to go with something super basic that we
said to give your accounts a name. I was like,
it's brilliant, Like it's so good. You're ten times less
likely to move into cash in a downturn. He said,
you're gonna have fifteen percent more wealth. It's amazing how
you give something a name, you give it a designation.
When all of a sudden it takes her life of
its own.

Speaker 3 (53:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:04):
Purpose, that's what he says.

Speaker 2 (53:05):
They tie a purpose to that money, not just sort
of like this generic catch all investment retirement account, but
something specific that's something I haven't done that I'm going
to go do now, are you literally just because of
hearing doctor Crosby talking about that, and I think he's
probably right. I think if I assign something some deeper
meaning to something as simple as a brokerage account, that maybe,

(53:28):
just maybe I'll treat it with a little more respect.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
See.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
So the problem is is I I'm trying to put
myself in that same position, and I don't exactly because
I don't have like a clear goal of like say,
when it is I'm going to retire or something big
and expensive that I want to buy. And I feel
like if I had to name my account right now,
it would be just in case I want to stop
working because cool too? Maybe it maybe so because right now,
like we and we've talked about this, like it is,

(53:52):
it is fun to be able to create the podcast
and to do the work that we do, and I
don't necessarily, I guess, have something.

Speaker 1 (53:58):
To name it. If Joel gets canceled, I'll do that.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
I'll do that. But okay, my big takeaway here quickly
is when he was talking about that there is not
a deficit of knowledge and information that's out there, but
what is lacking is courage. And he said the way
that we can find more courage in our lives is
to focus on your strengths. Right, So he said, a
strength based approach. Don't go and do the things that
you're terrible at. Instead look at the things that you're

(54:23):
really good at, and expand from there, maybe even double
down on your strengths. But then to maybe not double
down though, but to be incremental and for there to
be this sort of sustainable, realistic sort of growth as
opposed to doubling down or just be like I've never
run before, I'm going to do a couch to marathon
or whatever, and all of a sudden it's like, oh,
this is exactly how you burn out.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
When I was first started running, Matt and I was like,
I mean, half marathon wasn't anywhere on my radar, But
even trying to run three and a half miles or
something like that, I was like, ah, well, I'm not
my body's not ready for this. Truly, it wasn't ready.
And I had knee pains and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Organs are bouncing around your body. It's uncomfortable, right.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
I was like, I just have to slow down and
build more slowly, and that more sustainable slow build leads
to eventually you getting there, maybe not as quickly as
you want, but you get to where you want to go,
and it helps you avoid like quitting and throwing in
the towel.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
Yeah, and then that allows you to run a casual
nine miles before coming into work, dude. Yeah, And that's
also how you earned the ability to enjoy a beer
like we do on every episode. So you and I
enjoyed a beach slap. This is a West Coast ipa
by Brouyard Beer Co. And this one was donated to
the show bar our good buddy Joel, who does a
whole lot of the heavy lifting for us here on
the podcast, on the website newsletter, Yes, a lot of

(55:34):
that content creations me Joel, the other Joel, the other Joel. Yeah,
I call him jay O.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
I call him better Joel because I do. I truly
think he's a better human than I am and love
that guy. So yeah, Joel, thank you for this beer.
This was a West Coast IPA, but Matt not as
abrasive as like the old school West Coast IPAs. It
definitely had like grapefruit and bitter notes, but it wasn't
over the top like sometimes like the West Coast IPAs
from fifteen twenty years ago just were so abrasive and unrefined.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
They're trying to be as mean as possible.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's why people I think were early
on people either loved or hated IPAs. And now I
think I can appreciate it West Coast ipa maybe more
than I was able to when I first started drinking beer.

Speaker 2 (56:13):
Which is funny because this one was called Beach Slap,
so you would think that it was supposed to be
a super kind of hit you over the head type
of beer, But it doesn't at all remind me of
like Palette Wrecker, who remember like Green Flash, like some
of those beers that back in the day that were
I just remember those being hardly even drinkable. But this
is quite enjoyable, even the kind of beer that you
kick back on the beach and enjoy with a with
a good bud.

Speaker 1 (56:32):
Yeah, that beer I remember being a struggle to drink,
and this one, it's like no, this was super enjoyable.
So yeah, good, big thank you to our friend and
coworker Joel for this beer. Matt. That's going to do
it for this one. We'll link to all this stuff
we mentioned, including Daniel's new book up on the website
at how to money dot com. That's gonna do it
for this one though. Until next time, best friends out,
best friends out.

Speaker 3 (57:00):
The

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Joel Larsgaard

Matthew Altmix

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