April 2, 2025 • 50 mins
Imagine a scenario where you purchase pretty much whatever you want at the grocery store, you frequently go out to eat, and on top of that you always buy drinks for friends- no questions asked. That’s about what it would take to get food spending up to around 15% of average household income… but that sounds a bit insane! Most folks shop for sales, attempt to eat their leftovers, and on special occasions cover the check. But that spendthrift approach is exactly how a lot of Americans pay their taxes- they just pay what they think they’re supposed to. And on average most folks pay a little under 15%, they assume that’s just the way it is, but we think there’s a more strategic way to approach this inevitable expense. And here to talk about doing that well is Jasmine DeLucci- tax attorney, CPA, and enrolled agent. Jasmine has a wealth of knowledge around the US tax code and started posting online because she believes tax law should be available to everyone. Listen as we discuss the important role IRS transcripts play, vetting tax preparers, business expenses, tax-advantage ways to pass wealth onto future generations, and much more!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Today we're talking trustworthy tax advice with Jasmine Delucci.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Yeah, so, imagine this scenario where you purchase pretty much
whatever you want at the grocery store, right, so you
frequently go out to eat, and then on top of that,
you always buy drinks for your friends, like, no questions
asked anytime you go out. Like, that's about what it
would take to get food spending up to around fifteen
percent of your average household income. But if you ask
me like that sounds insane. It's not how I shop
(00:47):
at the grocery store at least, but it is how
a lot of Americans think about their tax situation. It's
they almost accept it as like this foregone conclusion. On average,
most folks pay a little under fifteen percent. They assume
that's just the way it is. But we think there
is a more strategic way to approach this inevitable expense.
And here to talk about doing that well is Jasmine Delucci.
(01:09):
She's a tax attorney at CPA and an enrolled agent.
Jasmine has a wealth of knowledge around the US tax code.
She started posting online because she believes that tax law
should be available to everyone. She even claims it's fun.
These all. These are other things she puts out there
before her videos over on YouTube in particular, but uh,
here to talk to us today, to share her passion
(01:31):
for tax law with us is Jasmine Deluci. Thank you
so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, thank you, guys, Glad to.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Have you, Jasmine.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
First question that we ask everyone who comes on, though,
is what do you like to sporge on? Matt and
I sporge on good craft beer even though we're saving
and investing all along the way, even when we get
to enjoy our splurge here, what about you? What do
you like to splurge on?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
So honestly, like my default answer is literally tax classes,
which is.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Probably not intending to go for.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
But like my default is, like, right now, I'm spending
way too much money on NYU tax classes. Actually literally
like what I like to do in my free time.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But wow, you look in selete taxes, full disclosure. A
little peak behind the curtain, Joel before we hit record,
ask Jasmine, do you consider yourself a nerd?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
No?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I wasn't trying to cast expersions or anything. I was
just asking, so.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I think here's your answer. So well, okay, well, this
is obviously a business expense. That's actually something we'll get
to later on in the show. Jasmine, the first I
think that falls into the category of continuing ed further education,
is that, right? I don't know if that's.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Mostly There are some details with some of the stuff
that's for.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Degree education, but yeah, I mean generally, I just love
to spend on learning, and so yeah, usually if it's
learning and it's tax related, it's it's usually deductible.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
All right, okay, all right, So is there anything else
that Jasmine that you do for fun besides learn more
about taxes or deliver great tax advice?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
There is?
Speaker 4 (02:57):
I was thinking about it because I was like, oh, no,
that one's just full business. I mean literally what I
do twenty four to seven, it really is. It's like
working out or working. But the thing that I've gotten
really obsessed with lately is if do you guys know
Brian Johnson, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, you guy who never wants to die?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Right, Yeah, So I've gotten into all of his stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I'm like drinking the olive oil taking.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
This Jasmine has paid for the protocol. I'm guessing what
we can talk about that later after. We don't want
to bore all of our We've actually kind of gone
through this before on the show. That's fascinating. Yeah, to
save Joel just the heartache as well, to stop my
eyes from blazing over here. We talk to guests sometimes.
There's one conversation we had with a guest one time
(03:38):
that went on for like ten minutes after we stopped rolling.
Joel's just like, let's just kind of move on with life,
like we're gonna talk about this. Matt's like Andrew Huberman Disciples. Yeah,
I'm more along like the te Heuberman path as opposed
to the Johnson.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Well, hey, the goal is to live forever and practice
tax law forever.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Then, you know, I gotta kind of put that in
one pack.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You are on the right path. I can't wait t
you make those T shirts up. I'll wear Well. I'm
guessing there's very little overlap when it comes to tax
law and Bride's But let's talk about that though. Jus me,
because you became an enrolled agent while you were still
in high school. From what I understand, I guess why
did you do that? How did that come about? Share
your history with us A little bit.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Yeah, I mean really, like the easiest answer is that
my parents were both in tax so it's something that
I'd already been exposed to at a young age. And
my dad was an enrolled agent and he still is,
and so I don't know, I just always like I
remember in eighth grade I told my friends. I was like, guys,
I'm going to be a tax attorney, and they were like, no,
you're not. I was like, you know, So over the years,
(04:40):
I just, you know, I think people made me question it,
like maybe I did decide this like too early. So
I kept looking at other options and nothing was as
appealing to me as continuing on the tax law route.
And so then with the enrolled agent exam, you don't
need like there's really barely any requirements to be able
to take it.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
You don't have to have a college degree.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I don't think you have to have a high schoo
you don't have to have a high school degree.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So I was like, well, let's let's get started.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
You go, Yeah, starting young and clearly obviously something that
you like, you enjoy.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
There's I'm curious to you.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
You started talking about tax law and offering tax advice
on social media talk to me about your thoughts on
other advice, specifically in the tax realm that you find
maybe on social media, on Instagram and on YouTube. I'm
sure you've seen some really awful stuff out there. Seems
like actually sometimes you talk smack, you throw shape of
(05:31):
some of the other creators who are offering advice that's
less than stellar.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yeah, there's a lot of bad tax advice. And that's
really how I got started. I mean, I never thought
that there would be this many people that want to
watch my stuff, So it really wasn't the goal going in.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Initially.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
It was really like I kept repeating a lot of
the same advice to people. People like clients would come
to me with the wrong stuff, and a lot of
times of course where they hear it, you know, on
social media, and so I was like you just look
at it and be like, Okay, this is wrong, this
is wrong. And that's how I started. And so a
lot of the advice what I'm noticing is when people
post in their realm whatever it is, let's say their
(06:12):
realm is like, honestly, I've seen like a hairdresser posting
about hair, and then the minute that hairdresser posts about
tax advice.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
It's like their highest viewed post.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
And they're like, ooh, let me go start going in
that direction.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Yeah, So that's what I think I keep seeing, and
that's why I think a lot of times there's so
much bad advice. Like I just saw the other day,
there's one account that I don't follow, but I just
of course the tax advice.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Popped up on my feed.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Twenty million views for this one incorrect piece of advice,
and of course all the regular posts that they have
are you know, much lower, and so it's like, well,
why wouldn't you just keep doing that?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
That's so fascinating, Like I'm guessing one of the I mean,
obviously there's a lot of wrong advice, and maybe that's
a part of how they're garnering all those clicks, But like,
how difficult is it to create and to dispense good
financial advice, especially on social media, because I'm guessing, like
the time constraints that oftentimes that that you're given on
social media. This is more of a media question as
(07:09):
opposed to a tax question. But the time constraints, given
the fact that we're just constantly being fed new things
to click on, speak to that challenge of creating content
for social media.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I initially had that thought where I thought, well, people,
you know, because I looked at the other examples of
people posting in the tax space, and honestly, they're not
they're I don't they're not posting everything that's inaccurate, but
they're doing that thing that you just mentioned where it's
like they're kind of posting things that they know like
aren't really kosher but can get clicks. And so I
(07:40):
thought maybe there just wasn't demand for that. But what
I found is like, I don't know, it's not that hard.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
You just give accurate information.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
There's actually a huge population out there that just wants
real information and sure don't be extremely boring about it,
you know. So I have done some more fun stuff,
but I haven't found that that's fully required. I think
to some extent, there's just an audience that wants to
feel like they can rely on the information.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Is it hard to give accurate information given the fact
that everyone has different different tax situation, right, So one
thing might work for one person, but the same person
might not meet the same requirement. So giving that context,
especially in a limited timeframe, is that is that hard
to pull off?
Speaker 4 (08:22):
I think not anymore, you know, because I've kind of
found what works for me, and so like a really
easy way for me to do it now is is
I you know, of course part of it is the reaction, right,
so I take what someone's already explained that's inaccurate, I
very quickly say it's wrong, and then instead of having
to give a full context or explanation, it usually just
like here's a court case that said no.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
And why I.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Think that's why your stuff stands out too, is like
you're you're not afraid to dive into the actual cases,
which I think a lot of folks actually aren't doing. Joel,
you mentioned context jasmine. What are some of the lowest
hanging pieces of tax saving fruit that's out there that
a lot of DII tax filers that they actually tend
to miss.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
It is actually very difficult as just being an employee,
Like almost all of the tax deductions for employees were
wiped out back in twenty eighteen on the last tax reform,
So one of the biggest changes then was things like
home office and mileage and all these like expenses. A
lot of times you do have literally just zeroed out
and wiped out. So then it really comes down to
(09:22):
things that probably people have heard about but maybe they
don't understand enough to execute. So it really does then
go in the direction of I mean, retirement accounts would
be one option. Of course, a lot of people talk
about the short term rental loopholes, so we say loophole,
but it's literally like built into statute directly.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
It wasn't inadvertent.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
So that's probably the biggest opportunity for someone that is
an employee but is maybe married to someone that's not
working full time.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Is that the Augusta rule that you're talking about right there?
Speaker 4 (09:52):
No, Okay, so that Augusta rule would really be exclusive
to business owners.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Okay, tell us about that short term loophole then, because
I'm not totally sure if that's something that we've talked about.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
You show basically you think of like AIRBND like it was,
it's basically in statute. It's a way to have a
business that doesn't have as high of a threshold as
long term rentals. So I actually if we kind of
go back in history, right, so way back before a
couple of tax reforms, we have real estate and it
used to be just like this, the holy grail of
(10:21):
tax savings. So it was basically you just buy long
term rentals. Maybe you're a doctor, a lawyer making a
ton of money, and you just offset all of your
income with regular long term rentals. And what ended up happening,
of course, was then during the next tax reform Congress was.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Like, we don't like this, so we're just gonna block it.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
And so then with long term rentals specifically, it's become
I don't want to say impossible, but I mean it's
really it's just a very high threshold, like you basically
have to have one out of the two spouses as
a full time real estate professional to be able to
get that same tax benefit.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
That used to be much easier.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
So now when we look at at the time when
that tax reform was developed, airbnb wasn't a thing, and
so it used to be really more viewed as a
full business if you had a short term rental. Now,
with it being so easy with airbnb, we're able to
use that same law that was already in place, and
it just is not subject to that special really high
(11:21):
threshold that we have in place for real estate. It's
like carved out as an exception where we say, okay,
we're not really going to view this as real estate,
which is typically passive and not much work.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
We're actually going to view it like a regular business.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
And if we're viewing it like a regular business, well
then the ability to get we call it like non
passive treatment, like active treatment, like I'm actively involved in it,
is much lower, and it ends up being one hundred
hours and more than anyone else. And that's a threshold
a lot of people can meet while being an employee.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
That's okay, So there's better preferential tax treatment for running
short term rentals than there is for running long term
having long term rental properties.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Yeah, you can basically view short term rentals as like
it's just viewed like any regular business. Like if I
start an accounting firm, how do we know if I
actively participate in the accounting firm, where we say, do
I spend one hundred hours and more than anyone else?
Or do I spend more than five hundred hours in
the year. So it's a much much more reasonable threshold
to meet versus we've kind of Congress has basically blocked
(12:24):
that for real estate that's not a short term rental.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Okay, Yeah, I've heard about the real estate professional designation.
Matt and I are real estate investors. We don't qualify because, yeah,
we don't work more real estate than we do at
our full time job. So and I think that's where
a lot of people land on that. I'm curiouslet's talk
about maybe like just some kind of general tax advice too,
or I've heard you talk about IRS transcripts. I did
(12:49):
not know that this was a thing until I started
digging into your content. What are IRS transcripts and how
can they be helpful to folks who are filing taxes?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
IRS transcripts are the best thing ever.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
I don't know why nobody talks about them, even through accountants,
you know, and I'm I obviously speak with a lot
of accountants and.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Nobody is as excited about them as I am.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
But they are literally it's a record that the IRS
has on you, and it's something that the IRS uses,
like we know that they actively use it in an
automated process. And so obviously I deal with a lot
of IRS problems and so like I would say, literally
ninety percent of the problems and IRS notices I see
are from matching your transcripts to the return, Like the
(13:31):
IRS will do that for you, and so it's so
so stupid not to have done it yourself. When you're
filing ahead of time.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
You're a tax professional, SEA might be a bit biased,
But how would you answer somebody if they said, I
don't know, I have a pretty basic tax situation. Is
going to the tax software? Is that going to be
okay for me? Or do I really need to hire
a pro?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
So it really depends, you know, to some extent that
person who's trying to hire someone you need think about,
like what your skill sets are. So I really do
think it's based on that person individually. If you're financially savvy,
then I actually think I mean, I've seen professionals do
a disservice a lot to clients in general, but especially
even smaller, simpler situations because because it's so simple, I mean,
(14:19):
you could literally plug it into software. So yeah, actually
I'm a huge proponent of that when it's simple, and
then the minute it gets too complex, I would say that, Yeah.
Once there's businesses people tend to they're just not looking
out for the things that they need to be looking
out for.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
What is your take on the I guess it's only
new Ish at this point, But the direct file, the
IRS direct file service, Like, what are your thoughts on
that for folks who are looking to, you know, they
are looking to DIY it in comparison to some of
the other DIY filing services like TurboTax for instance.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Well, so I haven't used the direct file, I've got
to think it would be fine. So to me, I mean,
I see them as all pretty interchangeable. Where you pull
your transcripts, so I would always pull my transcripts and
then all of those software should pretty much get to
the same resolution, especially if you've got W two's ten
and nine interest, you know, as all of the basic
(15:10):
tax documents. I don't see any problem with it.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
You said too, that when when people hire a pro,
they're often too reliant on that professional to you know,
fill out the paperwork properly. How much tax research should
we be doing as individuals and where should we turn
for that research? Makes me think of like when we're
talking about rental properties, man, people will reach in and say,
I want to I want to have a rental property,
(15:33):
but I'm gonna I'm going to hire a property manager
first thing, and my advice typically is that you should
manage your own property for a couple of years that
you know the questions to ask when you do eventually
hire a property a property manager. Tell me how how
you think that should check out when we're talking about
hiring someone to help you with your taxes.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah, I mean, I believe in that people should understand
what you know. You have to understand something before you
delegate it. And to some extent, there are certain things
in our life that are so complicated that it's not
worth to like, maybe, you know, if I'm going to
hire an electrician, I probably don't feel like I should
understand everything before hiring that person. But I believe that,
like the finance, tax realm, it's like so critical to
(16:12):
us that even if you're going to delegate it to
someone awesome, you still want to have a pulse on
what's going on, And especially if your stuff is simple,
then it's like really a good idea to understand it.
So sometimes that can mean maybe you delegate it quickly,
but you have a professional that's willing to explain or
answer some of that stuff so you learn, or you
could always handle it yourself if it's on the simpler side,
(16:32):
and then delegate it out. But but I mean to me,
the best place to go would be the resources I'm creating,
so it'd be my YouTube channel. And then I also
have a free tax tax law community, so actual tax
law dot Com. And then I've created like a full
community with like resources. It's free, it's like people post questions.
I do monthly workshops. So I've literally just tried to
(16:54):
create as much accessible information as possible. And I think
that's a good idea for anyone who wants to understand
a bit of what's going on.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Jasmin is a total pro. She's getting the plug in
there before we get to the end of the episode.
Of course, we'll make sure to link to all that
in our show notes, Jasmine, so folks can know exactly
where to find you. But let's say, like, yes, you
do have a small business, Okay, your taxes are getting
a bit more complex, and we've talked about on the
show too, just even red flags that might go up
that might cause someone to say, oh, this guy is
(17:24):
like one of these ghost filers. He's totally gonna say
I'm completely eligible for all of these deductions and in reality,
and I'm a refund I'm going to be left holding
the bag. How should someone think about vetting a tax
pro I guess, like, are there specific questions that you
should ask them?
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Yeah? I mean, well, so first off, I believe in
like you should just always assume you're going to be
left holding the bag. Okay, just to be clear, like
it's not even good bad ghosts prep whatever. I mean
not to say you can always sue an accountant, right,
but that's really what it would be, because the IRS
is going to always leave you holding the bag. And
then it's whether you then can go back on your accountant,
you know, just a separate question. I mean, as far
(18:02):
as vetting people, I would make sure they're licensed, which
is not a given right because you have to be
licensed to be a hairstylist. You do not have to
be licensed to prepare tax returns. So I think that's
like a bare minimum that's crazy. By the way, it
is crazy, and it's just they tried to pass it,
you know, way back, and it was deemed unconstitutional. So
it just needs to be done by Congress. The IRS
(18:23):
just doesn't have control over it, and so so bare
minimum licensed to write a lot of people will come
to me and they'll be like, my CPA did this
and I'm like, this CPA is not a CPA. And
by the way, they didn't even put your like put
their name on your return. It was ghost preparation right
where it's a self prepared ghost preparation super not allowed
complete violation that alone, I mean, just seeing that is like,
(18:46):
do not hire that person. But then I always say,
like a lot of times we have a good gut,
you know, And so in general, what I think you're
looking for is I would just like get to know
a couple of people. And to me, you're always looking
for some one that cares. Which it's just so we
can say, well, how do we know if they care,
But it's just you can tell, you know, like especially
(19:07):
when you have multiple options, And I would go for
the person that cares, because not only, of course do
they care more about you as a client, but the
person who cares to do a good job, right because
tax law.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Just keeps changing.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
And I think that's that's what I've seen has made
the worst professionals over the years, is like someone can
say they have thirty years of experience, but if they
really weren't enjoying what they were doing and didn't really
care the whole time, they tend to just not learn
that much, and because there's there's too much to keep
up with, we just have to look stuff up. And
so if they don't really care, they're just less likely
to do a good job.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Find someone who likes taxes as much as Jasmin Dat's right,
So who's taking those classes?
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Right? Right?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I'm curious to hear your take two about holistic tax planning.
I think for a lot of individuals, there seems to
be a focus on paying the least amount of tax
in the given tax year, like how can I maximize
my reflect even all the commercials like when the tax
reps off where it's all about maximizing your tax refund woohoo,
and then all the bells and whistles go off and
people are super stoked because it's more cash than their account.
(20:08):
How do you think about the desire that folks have
to pay less tax now versus the ability to kind
of pay pay less tax in the future, And it
just involves different choices along the way, And how do
you coach your your clients on that.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
I mean, I'm always long term focused, you know, but
of course, in general, people are very susceptible to short
term gains. Right, So you think about even like I
don't know the weight loss industry, it's like more exciting
to click on, you know, six pack abs in ten
days than the alternative. But yeah, I mean that's a
really good point. With tax it's so easy for people
(20:46):
to sell the short term thing, and there have been
so many situations I've seen where that is adverse in general. Right,
So it's like if you knew you were going to
pay ten thousand dollars more for the next three years,
but then have a tax free sale of your business
for ten million dollars, like you would choose that all
day long, like you would choose the ten million dollars savings.
(21:07):
And so I've seen people make a lot of decisions
like that. It's typically more in the business owner realm,
or you could speak to retirement accounts as well the
same way. But yeah, that's to me, that's probably one
of the biggest differentiators with US versus I would say
most of this like online market, when people do sell,
it's just it's that shortcut way to sell and say,
I'm going to save you a ton of money right
(21:28):
this moment. But I always look at it like if
that were my business what would I want, well, to
be honest as a business owner, especially there are other considerations.
I mean, we want to reduce tax, we also want
to reduce IRIS exposure. We don't want to if I
can save twenty thousand dollars this year, but I might
get tied up in a three year long audit with
a one hundred thousand dollars bill, Like it may not
(21:49):
be worth it to that business owner, and so to me.
The way I do it a lot of times is
like presenting the risks and the benefits, both short and
long term. And usually and owners have different risk profiles
on what they wanted to.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Okay, well, just a second ago, you did say retirement accounts.
So on the note of a traditional or wroth, do
you have a preference, like do you lean towards one
over the other or does it truly come down to
the individual And there're personal circumstances.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
I mean, my personal preference is always going to be wroth,
But that's because of assumptions I make for myself, for example,
Whereas there are some people that traditional cold can work for.
But it really it comes down to I mean for
roth right for me, Like I don't even believe in retirement.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Right, So in theory, if.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I'm going to keep working until I die, which was
hopefully three hundred years from now, then you know I
would want to do a wroth because I'm going to
be making more over time. So it always comes down
to your assumptions of where you're going to be later.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, okay, So then would the traditional apply more to
somebody who has maybe a more earthly understanding of their mortality,
not just that.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
I think traditional is for someone that probably does not
only expects to retire, but then expects to really not
make as much. Right, I don't think those are the
same thing, because exactly in theory, if you're in if
you're investing, you're building assets, you're building value, you very
well may be in a higher you really should be
in a higher tax bracket later. And then we're also
betting on what's Congress going to do. You know, they're
(23:20):
going to increase tax rates, which is usually our assumption
is probably it's going to go up, not down. So
you'd really have to just know that when you retire,
you're going to be making a lot less than whatever
you're currently doing today, and even then you're still giving
up control over your money, which is not my favorite thing.
And of course I see the back end of it,
(23:41):
which is when we prep returns. I see the number
of people that need access to their money and just
take the penalty. And it's just really the worst case scenario.
They take the money, they need it, they have the penalty,
and then of course you get taxed in that year,
so it throws up their tax bracket for all these
other years when they lower tax brackets, and then the
(24:01):
year they withdraw it all in one it's a huge
high tax bracket. So it's really worst case scenario. And
you know, so really evaluating whether losing that control of
your money is also worth it.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Okay, quick, find a little follow up here. What kind
of situations do you see folks in where they are saying, hey,
actually like we do need to tap that traditional retirement
account where they are kind of getting that triple whammy
in effect.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
It just varies.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I mean, I would say the most common probably is
related to business or investment. People make some type of
decision that they want to they need to invest in
their business, they want to start a business. It's usually
they think, oh I'm going to make more, you know,
but you take such a hit, so that's.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
One or metically they need a lump some and they
take it from the wrong place, not thinking about the
tax consequences.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Yeah, I mean a lot of them are aware of
the tax consequences.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
It's just to them, it's just going to be worth it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, all right, We've got more to get to with you, Jasmine.
We're going to talk about trying to avoid IRS tax onits.
We're also going to talk about filing an extension, why
that might be a good idea for a whole lot
of tax filers. We'll get through that and more with
Jazmin Dlucci right after this, we are.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Back from the break talking with Jasmine Delucci. And Jasmine,
I am kind of curious if you just rolled your
eyes when we reached out to you about talking about
tax stuff, so that this is going to kind of
publish not too it seem like the kind of person
who rolls over. I mean, is there anything that folks
can do by the time this episode comes out, Like,
are there any actual helpful tax maneuvers that folks can
(25:32):
make now? Or is it just too late?
Speaker 4 (25:34):
I mean it's definitely limited, you know, So I would
say things like, I mean retirement accounts always an option,
but that's gonna be the main one, especially for employees. Otherwise,
most things economically need to happen in the year.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Okay, and so we're starting to think about tax planning
for your twenty twenty five taxes, not twenty twenty four
taxes necessarily at this point in the.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Year pretty much.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah, okay. What's your take on.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Tax refunds because some people say that's an interest free
loan to the government.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Why would you do that?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Other people say, man, it's like this deferred method of savings.
It helps me jumpstart other financial goals because I don't know,
it's kind of surprise money coming out of nowhere. I'm
not really thinking about it most of the time. How
do you help your clients think about tax refunds and
whether they're beneficial or not.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Well, so, most of my clients are business owners, so
they are usually paying in, not usually getting much of
a refund. And so I mean, in general for them
to have gotten a refund, we would have had to
tell them to pay too much because they're going to
ask us like how much to pay in, So we don't.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
We don't do that.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
We tell them to pay in what they're required to
pay in. I do always ask for their preference, but
most people that are a business owner answer that they
want to pay in the least possible to avoid penalties.
They don't usually answer that like I want to pay
in extra. It's usually more like the employee side, where
the the withholdings is automatic through your W two, so
(27:02):
they might want to withhold just a little bit extra
for that peace of mind.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Are for those employees? Do you ever see scenarios where
someone actually does owe the IRS a whole lot of money?
They've got a bill. I don't know if that's an
accurate way to think about it. You've got a bill
that's due to the IRS. But are there options for
some of those folks out there who might have a
large sum that they don't have the cash on hand
to take care of.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Yes, yeah, so you can do a payment plan with
the IRS. So it all it's always d you in April, right,
so that's when your taxes do you. It doesn't feel
like that because people extend, but that's an extension to file,
not to pay and so. But yeah, if you want
to either those a couple options. Sometimes people will just
wait to file until October knowing that they already owe
(27:45):
the money but they don't have it. So you can
wait until the IRS knows that you have the money
and then just pay it with your return. At that point,
it's just going to come with penalties and interest. Alternatively,
you can set up a payment plan. It takes a
little bit of work to set up the IRS. It
doesn't make anything too easy, but if you set that up,
it's actually at a little bit less of a pain
(28:06):
like a penalty as far as the penalties that are
basically accruing for late payment.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
You seem to be a proponent of people filing extensions,
and like you just said, you still have to pay
your expected tax bill on by April fifteenth even if
you're filing the extension. But why why do you like
for people to have that extra time and why do
you encourage people to go with the extension?
Speaker 4 (28:29):
Yeah, so, I mean the main reason is to be
able to check your IRS transcripts. So if you don't extend,
your transcripts are just not going to be fully populated.
But if you do extend, you'll have a chance to
check your transcripts. So to me, I would say the
ideal scenario is you get everything together in the beginning
of the year. You can even have your return prepped
in the beginning of the year so you know exactly
what you owe, go ahead and pay it in if
(28:51):
you owe, and then extend, check your transcripts and then file.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And that's essentially to make sure you're not filing a
non inclining information that the IRS has so you can
so you can. It's like it's like double checking your work.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Yeah, exactly, very nice.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Okay, let's talk about getting trouble with the IRS. Should
normal folks out there, should they be worried about getting
audited by the IRS? Like you talked about this three
year tax battle, maybe like one hundred thousand dollars bill
that comes due to attorneys that you might have to hire.
In my heart, like, how do you ensure that this
is something that you can avoid?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
I mean, you can never guarantee that you won't.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Get audited, but make it less likely, yeah, I mean
as far as less likely. I mean, I would say
the biggest audit trigger that I see all the time
is reporting a huge loss on a schedule. See that
is like basically just like just ask just like beg
for an audit. If you if you want one just
like slap, especially if you want to put no income
(29:48):
in the gross receipts line and then just put like
negative fifty thousand. I mean, your your return will be
pulled so fast.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I told does it all the time though, But then
I just moved to South America and it's all time.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I guess he's just gotten lucky.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Yeah, I'm sure there are some people that don't get audited,
but man, that is it's tracked so closely because the
number of things that it affects.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
So, for example, I was involved in a case where
it wasn't the audit of the individual. This one was
actually because they tracked preparers as well. And so they
tracked this prepare a lot of times. The reason they
do a schedule see that's a loss or that is
really like it looks like a fake business is it
generates the earned income credit. So for this preparer, he
(30:27):
basically the ratio of the number of people that had
scheduled see losses and earned income credits was so high
that they knew it was probably fake it and let's
be honest, it was, and so they they audited him
actually in this case. But oh, interesting but that's the
number one thing I see. And so if you're going
to have a loss, make it, make it an escort.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Probably it would be one often.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So what is actually involved in an audit as someone
who thankfully has not been audited and we're hoping that
trend continues for our business too, what what is involved
in that? And how painful is it?
Speaker 4 (31:02):
It's pretty painful, Like anything with the irs, it's inconsistent.
So I'm sure there are I mean, there are some
audits where I'm like, surprisingly, I'm like, wow, this one
wasn't bad.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
But that's more the exception.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
In general, it's it's just such an administratively terrible process.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
So it's like best case scenario.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
A lot a lot of the times is literally just
you wasting just like a catastrophic amount of time doing
like just receipt dumping. You know, you're just going back
and forth, giving a ton of documents. Sometimes the auditors
just ignore the documents. Sometimes they just like it's not
in a format that they like, and so they ignore
them again. And so if you don't like that result,
(31:45):
then we just taking it further just takes a lot
of time, So we go to appeals, we go to
IRS Council, and a lot of times I'm taking some
of the stupidest arguments to appeals and IRIS Council because
the lower level auditor just don't I don't want to
like they're not bad people, but it's just like you know,
they got the checkli and it's not on there.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, just making your life hard. So let's talk about businesses,
because business owners obviously they have the ability to deduct
certain expenses that normal folks can't. Sounds like this is
more your specialty, jasmine, But talk to us about that
different treatment, Like what are some of the common deductions
that business owners are eligible for, Maybe some deductions that
they're leaving on the table that yeah, they really could
(32:22):
call back some of those tax dollars.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
I mean, so as far as deductions, So I know
the way a lot of people paint it is like
they'll say, oh, there's like these you know, number of
pages in the tax code or number of deductions, Like
it's really not like that. There's no like limit limited number.
So business owner, we've got the oversighted statute that everyone
likes to points to you, right one sixty two a
ordinary necessary business expenses. So that's I mean, that's literally
(32:46):
the rule. So there's not like a limited number of deductions.
It really comes down to what you need for your
business is probably a deduction. And then because certain areas
are subject to abuse, we do have certain limitations on
a lot of those personal items. And so that's where
a lot of my content ends up being focused around,
(33:07):
because everyone that posts just quotes the statute and ignores
all of the rest of the law. But there's not
really a limit, it really is. I mean that's why
when you think of things like cell phone, it's not
like there's some special cell phone statute that tells us
that your cell phone's deductible. It's just the fact that
if you can prove your business use of it, then
you can deduct it.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
So what are the biggest misconceptions then about deductions and
how do people tend to screw that up?
Speaker 4 (33:32):
I Mean, the biggest one that I see is people
reading the statute saying ordinary and necessary and then they're like, oh, well,
I think, you know insert here is ordinary and necessary.
You know, I think I needed to go I'm trying
to think of like the most ridiculous I needed to
go to the gym to be really fit, so I
see like things like that, right, which kind of makes
sense logically if you're like a personal trainer and so
(33:54):
you start using your brain, which is not how taxile works.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
So I see a lot of that.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
There's like a lot of like, you know, well, this
person's on OnlyFans, so they get to deduct all their
cosmetic procedures and so you know, we just we have
law in place, we have court cases in place that
tell us the answer, and a lot of those personal items.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
What's tricky though, is that like there are certain things
that we like, certain expenses we incur as individuals that
are ordinary and necessary to like human living. So for instance,
like meals, right, it's like, no matter what to survive,
like you probably have to eat lunch. And so I've
seen it discussed where if it's beyond what's ordinary and necessary,
(34:32):
like so for instance, when it comes to a meal,
it's like, okay, would you have already purchased that, well, yeah,
sure to just not be hungry in order to be healthy.
But if it's something that's like special, so for instance,
if it's a fancy lunch where you're going to take
a client out, like I've seen you even cite a
certain court case where it's like, well, you're not going
to be expected to go there with your mom's peanut
(34:53):
butter or not your mom, but like the peanut butter
and jelly sandwich I made immediately reverted back to high
school days, but like it's expected that you would partake
in that lunch as well to not be weird. So, like,
it's an interesting dynamic. How on one hand, if it's
ordinary and necessary to the exp operation of the business,
it's it's like, yes, you're allowed to deduct that, but
(35:15):
basically it needs to be above ordinary and necessary on
like a personal standpoint in order for it to even
be considered. Is that maybe a helpful way to think
about it.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Yeah, So the way the tax court sees it is
they see two statutes that are conflicting. So we've got
one sixty two A ordinary necessary business expenses, and then
we have two sixty two A, which is that personal
family living expenses are not deductible. Yeah, So that's the
way they approached in all their cases, where they say, well,
there's these two conflicting statutes and they've they've had to
(35:44):
just draw a line depending on the type of expense, say,
you know, at some point this is just and that's
that term, right, inherently personal. At some point, this is
so inherently personal that we're just not even if you
show that, like you talked about business at lunch, it's
like you were gonna eat and so usually with those
types of things, it just comes down to abuse. Honestly,
(36:07):
it's like, why do they do this? I think to
some extent it's just to prevent abuse, and so with
things like food, it.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Just don't it.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
It's like, you know, it's the what's the phrase, like
pigs get bad, the hugs get slaughtered.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
It's kind of like that.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
So you want to like the abuse of those deductions,
is that more likely to trigger an audit? If you
are getting a little too greedy with some of the
things you're claiming.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
I wouldn't say necessarily to trigger it, but once you're
in the audit to lose.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Something else you made a video about recently, You talked
about family business travel, and that's something else where people
can get caught up on the wrong side of kind
of the whole deduction thing. How how can people know
if like a family trip, a vacation is deductible or not,
and like what if you're mixing business and personal? How
how do people think through that?
Speaker 4 (36:55):
I mean it, you know, my answer is always like
what is the what does the tax law say? You know,
especially for something like travel, it's not so much I
think when we default to like our gut reaction, like oh,
I think this is really business related, it's just not
just off base. You know, in something like travel. IRC
two seventy four is so extensive. It is because travel
(37:16):
is such a high abuse area. You know, Congress is
aware of that, so they literally created extreme amounts of
statute for so many different situations. So when it comes
to travel, it would literally be like what are the requirements?
And that's why in that video specifically I did that's
one narrow area of two seventy four, Like two seventy four.
I'm about to do more videos because there's there's so much.
(37:38):
It's like depending on the situation, if it's international conference
that's under literally has a separate statute, then if it's
a domestic conference, so every area is different. But for
bringing your family on family trips, we've got two seventy
four M three, so we've got a specific statute that
literally tells us it's a three part test.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
We have three requirements.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Have to be an employer of your business, not a
board of director ten onion in contractor, but have to
be an employee. They have to do bonafide business work. Right,
so that of course, again it always the danger is
always like you interpret it yourself. So you go, oh, yeah,
like it was super necessary for them to be like
they're you know, they were chit chatting with my colleagues.
(38:20):
But what we know from court cases is that's not
considered bonafide business. And so then that more substantive work
really for the business. And then it goes to if
it would if it would have otherwise been deductible had
you not been there. But I guess if you're if
you're trying to go like not tax law and just
have you said like how to think about it?
Speaker 3 (38:40):
I mean, would you do it for not your family?
Speaker 1 (38:43):
That's all a good threshold, yeah, a good filter to
kind of run it through. All right, Jasmine, we are.
We've got some more topics to get to, like passing
wealth along to your kids, the tax treatment of those
assets will get to that more. Right after this we're back.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
We're still talking with Jasmine Deluci talking about taxes. Jasmine,
one one question I have for you is there's so
many commercials out there, especially this time of year, claiming
that these companies can help you navigate I R S issues,
And man, I feel like even on your channel, you've
talked to people who have hired the wrong person to
(39:28):
help them interface with the IRS, and it's just led
to a lot of pain, a lot of wasted money.
How how do you help people think through those claims
that like, hey, just pay us a bunch and we'll
solve your IRS tax problem.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Yeah, it's the number one I mean, that's a huge
scam industry. I'd be very careful of anybody claiming that
they're definitely going to reduce your burden. I mean, the
thing about it is, I know a lot of times
people use like the fear of the I R S right,
And I do think there are concerns about the fact
that the IRS is difficult to work with, administratively frustrating
(40:02):
to work with, but they're not typically malicious, and so
things like trying to get rid of your tax debt
to some extent you qualify or you don't, and really
the person you want on your team is someone that's
again going back to like caring, right, someone that cares
to actually help you and is going to going to
(40:22):
be with you to get through what is a very
administratively difficult process, and a lot of times it really
those companies, you know, they take all their money up front,
so why would they still care, you know, six months later,
because that process is going to take I mean typically
a year at least a year.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
How how much of your business or how much of
your time do you spend defending clients or working on
these on these audits.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
I spend a good amount of time.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
To me, I view it as it's like I want
to stay up to date on everything the IRS is doing,
and it's so inconsistent that I have to have a
lot of data entry points to see exactly what's going on.
So I do it is one of my favorite things
time on. Okay, Yeah, So the ones that I spend
time on are usually I like to spend time on
the ones that it's a dispute. So it's a lot
(41:08):
of time, Like the tax is at dispute, so an
IRS audit would be an example, or it's an IRS
notice that's incorrect, right, So we're trying to remove a
couple hundred thousand dollars in tax For example, I don't
spend so much time.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
My partner actually does. My dad he spends.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Time on the ones where you owe the irs but
you can't afford to pay them.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Got it, man, Okay, So Jasmine loves it. She's a
glutton for punishment, that's what she's saying. Going back, so
you were you kind of touched on this a second ago,
how you expect taxes essentially to go up in the future.
It's part of why you're a fan of the wrath
is that because of the fact that you're just looking
at the numbers and you're like, these numbers don't compute,
and so therefore you're like, all right, taxes have to
(41:47):
go up.
Speaker 4 (41:48):
Well, I mean historically tax rates have been higher, and
it's usually easier to pass tax increases than tax decreases,
it seems like.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
So that's more of just a guess.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, and well I guess even right now, we're we're
kind of at a point where we're going to have
some sort of new tax law no matter what. Right,
either the tax cuts, tax cuts and Job Act will
be extended or it'll sunset. And and maybe it's not extended,
maybe there's some new formulation. Like how do you think
about the uncertainty around tax law right now?
Speaker 4 (42:18):
I don't know if I think about it too much.
For me, it's it's I know that tax law is
just going to keep changing. It's like just the way
people seem to be wired. There's always special interest. It's
such a political topic that I just make the assumption
like every five years or four years now at this point,
there's going to be a lot of new stuff for
me to learn, and so that that's really the way
I approach it, just like very logically, I'm like, if
(42:40):
I just stay up to date, then I can always
maximize what we've got.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah, that makes sense. It's honestly probably a good way
to think about it. It's like a moving target for sure. Yeah,
well that's just the formature it takes. And yeah, it's
constantly it's ever evolving, which is oftentimes why like there's
not a whole lot of times that we say to
considering hiring a professional, but specifically with it when it
comes to tax law, it is constantly changing. There are
so many nuances. I don't know how many numbers and
(43:04):
letters that you stated so far during this conversation, But
like it's so much to keep up with, and it
pertains too how much it is that you're going to
end up paying taxes a lot of money. It's take
too in your business. But for folks out there who
are looking further ahead off into the future, generational wealth
is what we're talking about here, Like what's the best
way you think to pass on wealth alone to future
generations Because obviously, I mean we've talked about before retirement accounts,
(43:28):
they don't have that step up basis. How can folks
have that to where their kids, folks who are inheriting
that money pay the least amountain taxes possible.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
It's the best options always real estate, And so real
estate has such a strong lobby. We've got such favorable
tax laws for real estate, and I think that'll just
continue no matter whenever I see tax reform, Like the
real estate lobby is just so strong. They find a
way to weasel into even things that weren't intended for
them at all. And so with real estate, I mean,
(43:58):
the classic thing is you obviously purchase real estate. We
know it goes up in value, but the tax law
actually gives us credit as if it goes down in value,
which is a great payoff. And then as long as
you just don't sell it, let your kids inherit it,
you get the step up in basis and you can
just keep playing that game, you know, forever.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Brilliant Love it, Jasmine. Thank you so much for taking
the time to join us on how to Money today.
Where can our listeners find out more about you and
the content you're creating?
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Yeah, either on my YouTube so at tax leverage or
I also have actual tax law dot com.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
I created totally free community.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
There's no I'm not like upselling people or it's not
some like you know, I mean a lot of times
people create free stuff that's not really helpful. But this
is really just me trying to provide free value for
a lot of people that I feel like a lot
of times are hiring the wrong help, or not hiring help,
or just like often left in a worse position than
they should be.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Very cool. We'll link to all that, Jasmine. Thank you
so much for talking with us today.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Of course, thank you guys, all right, Matt that that
was a great conversation. I feel like Asmin is smarter
than I could ever hope to be, and I think
you have to be when it comes well, everyone's got
to be, like it's it's not a hard I guess
hurdle to jump over.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Now you've got to be pretty buttoned up, especially when
it comes to the details, especially when it comes to
some of the like the business law or the business
tax sort of sector of when it comes to tax planning.
Was your the big TAKEO.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I was going to say that intersection of passion and
like she's goin, yeah, she's I think I've ever.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Talked to anybody who was as excited about tax law.
No ass me neither the fact that she's yeah, she's like,
I'm either working or I'm working out something. Actually, I'm
glad you pushed her on. Come on, like, what's something
that you The others are going to say that this
is a dumb use of your money, not just for
you furthering educator.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I think it's like, I don't know, I love what
we do, and there are elements that I would be
doing of this job, whether or not I got paid.
Like I'm just fascinated by personal finance. So I get that.
I get that, although I don't know if I'm as
into it as as she is into Texas. But okay,
so I think my big takeaway from this conversation happened
right there at the end where she's talking about the
benefits of real estate when trying to transfer generational wealth,
(46:09):
and you and I we talk about real estate. We've
actually become less keen on pushing people towards investing in
rental real estate in recent years, given that it's just
more difficult financially.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
To pull off.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
But I think that's actually a really good point to
highlight here, is that if one of your key financial
goals is to leave an inheritance for the next generation,
the best way to do it from a tax standpoint
is to invest in rental real estate. So if that
goal of investing in real estate is a super long
term thing, if you're like, I'm going to own this
thing until I die and I want my kids to
(46:42):
inherit it, I think then it's beneficial from multiple standpoints.
You're minimizing the transaction costs obviously of buying real estate.
You get to see the appreciation, you get to get
the cash flow, and then you get to pass that
asset onto your children where that value gets reset exactly
which is pretty great. One of the coolest things about
real state, and every time it's so funny. I was
(47:02):
thinking about a property that I own that I'm having
to clean it up and find a new tenant, and
it just is kind of a pain. It's like my
least favorite time when I have to turn over that
property because it just requires more effort. And I was like,
you know what, my kids will be thankful that I
held on to it.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Someday.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
I can sell it right now and pay the tax,
but hey, this is a long term investment, and just
because this is a pain today doesn't mean it's not
going to hopefully pay off in spades tomorrow. Came in,
don't by tomorrow, I mean like that, like, yeah, ye, don't,
don't hit that easy button.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
That's what I was going to say. When it comes
to thinking about that. My big takeaway is going to
be when she was talking about the risk associated with
taking different deductions, and I think this applies to whether
you are in an individual or a business, And essentially
what I heard her say was that just because you
can take a certain deduction doesn't mean you should. And
I think when like it immediately made me think about
investing for your future. And just because you can invest
(47:55):
all of your money in crypto doesn't mean you should
do that. And in fact that there's I would say,
a higher likelihood of there being a worse outcome were
you to do that. So I don't know. I just
like that overall takeaway. Just because you can, that doesn't
necessarily mean that you should.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
But yeah, I mean, I guess if you put it
all on crypto, or if you had five years ago,
people would say, Matt, that I would have crushed. But
there's still there's still so much more risk.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
I think there's a lot more folks who have lost
a tremendous amount of money though kind of messing around
with something specifically like crypto. But all right, our beer
that you and I enjoyed during this episode was a
sequench ale, which I think we're supposed to read as sequential.
Oh okay, you think so? Maybe, Like I'm trying to
tie it back to the numbers a little bit. This
is a beer by dogfish Head. What are your thoughts here?
(48:43):
All right?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
So this was I thought light refreshing, It was briny,
had some live action.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Going on, It has some salt, for sure. Man.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
It was almost like the beer equivalent of a low
key margarita and so.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
But even less boozy. Yeah, like it was more like
lemon lied lemon lime Gatorade is yeah, yeah, yeah because
of the salt, because like that's what Gatorad and power Aye,
that's what those drinks have going on. Right, Yeah, you're
a runner now, like you're you're hammering some of those
those sports drinks. Like that's what you gotta have some
sodiums in there, that's right, that's what the guy going
on this had, the electrolytes, it brought it. Yeah, and
(49:15):
this was I thought this was really tasty. And you're
running a race and they had this over on the side,
would you go for some of that?
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (49:20):
For sure, probably would unless I was like going for
a pr or something like that. But because I doubt
a beer is gonna help me in my quest. But
this one, this one is tasty, and I like that
it's just kind of light and refreshing. It's not over
the top. And I'm always a fan of kind of
salty briny beers. I think of like Westbrooks Goza that
being like the classic super duper briny briny beer, and uh,
this this was like a much lighter version of that,
(49:41):
but now it makes you want to go harder than.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
That direct and this is even better for something like
the beach though, like you're sitting there like like just
so you know, folks, we love the big, heavy craft beers,
but that is not the kind of style you want
when you're sitting there under a one hundred degrees sun
around the beach. True story. All Right, that's gonna be
it for our episode talking about tax today, Jasmine Delucchi
will again make sure to link to some of the
things that she mentioned up on the website at howdomoney
(50:06):
dot com. Buddy, that's gonna be it for this one.
Until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,
Welcome to how to Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Today we're talking trustworthy tax advice with Jasmine Delucci.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Yeah, so, imagine this scenario where you purchase pretty much
whatever you want at the grocery store, right, so you
frequently go out to eat, and then on top of that,
you always buy drinks for your friends, like, no questions
asked anytime you go out. Like, that's about what it
would take to get food spending up to around fifteen
percent of your average household income. But if you ask
me like that sounds insane. It's not how I shop
(00:47):
at the grocery store at least, but it is how
a lot of Americans think about their tax situation. It's
they almost accept it as like this foregone conclusion. On average,
most folks pay a little under fifteen percent. They assume
that's just the way it is. But we think there
is a more strategic way to approach this inevitable expense.
And here to talk about doing that well is Jasmine Delucci.
(01:09):
She's a tax attorney at CPA and an enrolled agent.
Jasmine has a wealth of knowledge around the US tax code.
She started posting online because she believes that tax law
should be available to everyone. She even claims it's fun.
These all. These are other things she puts out there
before her videos over on YouTube in particular, but uh,
here to talk to us today, to share her passion
(01:31):
for tax law with us is Jasmine Deluci. Thank you
so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Yeah, thank you, guys, Glad to.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Have you, Jasmine.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
First question that we ask everyone who comes on, though,
is what do you like to sporge on? Matt and
I sporge on good craft beer even though we're saving
and investing all along the way, even when we get
to enjoy our splurge here, what about you? What do
you like to splurge on?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
So honestly, like my default answer is literally tax classes,
which is.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Probably not intending to go for.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
But like my default is, like, right now, I'm spending
way too much money on NYU tax classes. Actually literally
like what I like to do in my free time.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
But wow, you look in selete taxes, full disclosure. A
little peak behind the curtain, Joel before we hit record,
ask Jasmine, do you consider yourself a nerd?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
No?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I wasn't trying to cast expersions or anything. I was
just asking, so.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I think here's your answer. So well, okay, well, this
is obviously a business expense. That's actually something we'll get
to later on in the show. Jasmine, the first I
think that falls into the category of continuing ed further education,
is that, right? I don't know if that's.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Mostly There are some details with some of the stuff
that's for.
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Degree education, but yeah, I mean generally, I just love
to spend on learning, and so yeah, usually if it's
learning and it's tax related, it's it's usually deductible.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
All right, okay, all right, So is there anything else
that Jasmine that you do for fun besides learn more
about taxes or deliver great tax advice?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
There is?
Speaker 4 (02:57):
I was thinking about it because I was like, oh, no,
that one's just full business. I mean literally what I
do twenty four to seven, it really is. It's like
working out or working. But the thing that I've gotten
really obsessed with lately is if do you guys know
Brian Johnson, Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, you guy who never wants to die?
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Right, Yeah, So I've gotten into all of his stuff.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
I'm like drinking the olive oil taking.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
This Jasmine has paid for the protocol. I'm guessing what
we can talk about that later after. We don't want
to bore all of our We've actually kind of gone
through this before on the show. That's fascinating. Yeah, to
save Joel just the heartache as well, to stop my
eyes from blazing over here. We talk to guests sometimes.
There's one conversation we had with a guest one time
(03:38):
that went on for like ten minutes after we stopped rolling.
Joel's just like, let's just kind of move on with life,
like we're gonna talk about this. Matt's like Andrew Huberman Disciples. Yeah,
I'm more along like the te Heuberman path as opposed
to the Johnson.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Well, hey, the goal is to live forever and practice
tax law forever.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Then, you know, I gotta kind of put that in
one pack.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You are on the right path. I can't wait t
you make those T shirts up. I'll wear Well. I'm
guessing there's very little overlap when it comes to tax
law and Bride's But let's talk about that though. Jus me,
because you became an enrolled agent while you were still
in high school. From what I understand, I guess why
did you do that? How did that come about? Share
your history with us A little bit.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Yeah, I mean really, like the easiest answer is that
my parents were both in tax so it's something that
I'd already been exposed to at a young age. And
my dad was an enrolled agent and he still is,
and so I don't know, I just always like I
remember in eighth grade I told my friends. I was like, guys,
I'm going to be a tax attorney, and they were like, no,
you're not. I was like, you know, So over the years,
(04:40):
I just, you know, I think people made me question it,
like maybe I did decide this like too early. So
I kept looking at other options and nothing was as
appealing to me as continuing on the tax law route.
And so then with the enrolled agent exam, you don't
need like there's really barely any requirements to be able
to take it.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
You don't have to have a college degree.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
I don't think you have to have a high schoo
you don't have to have a high school degree.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So I was like, well, let's let's get started.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
You go, Yeah, starting young and clearly obviously something that
you like, you enjoy.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
There's I'm curious to you.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
You started talking about tax law and offering tax advice
on social media talk to me about your thoughts on
other advice, specifically in the tax realm that you find
maybe on social media, on Instagram and on YouTube. I'm
sure you've seen some really awful stuff out there. Seems
like actually sometimes you talk smack, you throw shape of
(05:31):
some of the other creators who are offering advice that's
less than stellar.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
Yeah, there's a lot of bad tax advice. And that's
really how I got started. I mean, I never thought
that there would be this many people that want to
watch my stuff, So it really wasn't the goal going in.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Initially.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
It was really like I kept repeating a lot of
the same advice to people. People like clients would come
to me with the wrong stuff, and a lot of
times of course where they hear it, you know, on
social media, and so I was like you just look
at it and be like, Okay, this is wrong, this
is wrong. And that's how I started. And so a
lot of the advice what I'm noticing is when people
post in their realm whatever it is, let's say their
(06:12):
realm is like, honestly, I've seen like a hairdresser posting
about hair, and then the minute that hairdresser posts about
tax advice.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
It's like their highest viewed post.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
And they're like, ooh, let me go start going in
that direction.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Yeah, So that's what I think I keep seeing, and
that's why I think a lot of times there's so
much bad advice. Like I just saw the other day,
there's one account that I don't follow, but I just
of course the tax advice.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Popped up on my feed.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Twenty million views for this one incorrect piece of advice,
and of course all the regular posts that they have
are you know, much lower, and so it's like, well,
why wouldn't you just keep doing that?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
That's so fascinating, Like I'm guessing one of the I mean,
obviously there's a lot of wrong advice, and maybe that's
a part of how they're garnering all those clicks, But like,
how difficult is it to create and to dispense good
financial advice, especially on social media, because I'm guessing, like
the time constraints that oftentimes that that you're given on
social media. This is more of a media question as
(07:09):
opposed to a tax question. But the time constraints, given
the fact that we're just constantly being fed new things
to click on, speak to that challenge of creating content
for social media.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
I initially had that thought where I thought, well, people,
you know, because I looked at the other examples of
people posting in the tax space, and honestly, they're not
they're I don't they're not posting everything that's inaccurate, but
they're doing that thing that you just mentioned where it's
like they're kind of posting things that they know like
aren't really kosher but can get clicks. And so I
(07:40):
thought maybe there just wasn't demand for that. But what
I found is like, I don't know, it's not that hard.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
You just give accurate information.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
There's actually a huge population out there that just wants
real information and sure don't be extremely boring about it,
you know. So I have done some more fun stuff,
but I haven't found that that's fully required. I think
to some extent, there's just an audience that wants to
feel like they can rely on the information.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Is it hard to give accurate information given the fact
that everyone has different different tax situation, right, So one
thing might work for one person, but the same person
might not meet the same requirement. So giving that context,
especially in a limited timeframe, is that is that hard
to pull off?
Speaker 4 (08:22):
I think not anymore, you know, because I've kind of
found what works for me, and so like a really
easy way for me to do it now is is
I you know, of course part of it is the reaction, right,
so I take what someone's already explained that's inaccurate, I
very quickly say it's wrong, and then instead of having
to give a full context or explanation, it usually just
like here's a court case that said no.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
And why I.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Think that's why your stuff stands out too, is like
you're you're not afraid to dive into the actual cases,
which I think a lot of folks actually aren't doing. Joel,
you mentioned context jasmine. What are some of the lowest
hanging pieces of tax saving fruit that's out there that
a lot of DII tax filers that they actually tend
to miss.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
It is actually very difficult as just being an employee,
Like almost all of the tax deductions for employees were
wiped out back in twenty eighteen on the last tax reform,
So one of the biggest changes then was things like
home office and mileage and all these like expenses. A
lot of times you do have literally just zeroed out
and wiped out. So then it really comes down to
(09:22):
things that probably people have heard about but maybe they
don't understand enough to execute. So it really does then
go in the direction of I mean, retirement accounts would
be one option. Of course, a lot of people talk
about the short term rental loopholes, so we say loophole,
but it's literally like built into statute directly.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
It wasn't inadvertent.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
So that's probably the biggest opportunity for someone that is
an employee but is maybe married to someone that's not
working full time.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Is that the Augusta rule that you're talking about right there?
Speaker 4 (09:52):
No, Okay, so that Augusta rule would really be exclusive
to business owners.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Okay, tell us about that short term loophole then, because
I'm not totally sure if that's something that we've talked about.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
You show basically you think of like AIRBND like it was,
it's basically in statute. It's a way to have a
business that doesn't have as high of a threshold as
long term rentals. So I actually if we kind of
go back in history, right, so way back before a
couple of tax reforms, we have real estate and it
used to be just like this, the holy grail of
(10:21):
tax savings. So it was basically you just buy long
term rentals. Maybe you're a doctor, a lawyer making a
ton of money, and you just offset all of your
income with regular long term rentals. And what ended up happening,
of course, was then during the next tax reform Congress was.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Like, we don't like this, so we're just gonna block it.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
And so then with long term rentals specifically, it's become
I don't want to say impossible, but I mean it's
really it's just a very high threshold, like you basically
have to have one out of the two spouses as
a full time real estate professional to be able to
get that same tax benefit.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
That used to be much easier.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
So now when we look at at the time when
that tax reform was developed, airbnb wasn't a thing, and
so it used to be really more viewed as a
full business if you had a short term rental. Now,
with it being so easy with airbnb, we're able to
use that same law that was already in place, and
it just is not subject to that special really high
(11:21):
threshold that we have in place for real estate. It's
like carved out as an exception where we say, okay,
we're not really going to view this as real estate,
which is typically passive and not much work.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
We're actually going to view it like a regular business.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
And if we're viewing it like a regular business, well
then the ability to get we call it like non
passive treatment, like active treatment, like I'm actively involved in it,
is much lower, and it ends up being one hundred
hours and more than anyone else. And that's a threshold
a lot of people can meet while being an employee.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
That's okay, So there's better preferential tax treatment for running
short term rentals than there is for running long term
having long term rental properties.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Yeah, you can basically view short term rentals as like
it's just viewed like any regular business. Like if I
start an accounting firm, how do we know if I
actively participate in the accounting firm, where we say, do
I spend one hundred hours and more than anyone else?
Or do I spend more than five hundred hours in
the year. So it's a much much more reasonable threshold
to meet versus we've kind of Congress has basically blocked
(12:24):
that for real estate that's not a short term rental.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Okay, Yeah, I've heard about the real estate professional designation.
Matt and I are real estate investors. We don't qualify because, yeah,
we don't work more real estate than we do at
our full time job. So and I think that's where
a lot of people land on that. I'm curiouslet's talk
about maybe like just some kind of general tax advice too,
or I've heard you talk about IRS transcripts. I did
(12:49):
not know that this was a thing until I started
digging into your content. What are IRS transcripts and how
can they be helpful to folks who are filing taxes?
Speaker 3 (12:57):
IRS transcripts are the best thing ever.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
I don't know why nobody talks about them, even through accountants,
you know, and I'm I obviously speak with a lot
of accountants and.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Nobody is as excited about them as I am.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
But they are literally it's a record that the IRS
has on you, and it's something that the IRS uses,
like we know that they actively use it in an
automated process. And so obviously I deal with a lot
of IRS problems and so like I would say, literally
ninety percent of the problems and IRS notices I see
are from matching your transcripts to the return, Like the
(13:31):
IRS will do that for you, and so it's so
so stupid not to have done it yourself. When you're
filing ahead of time.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
You're a tax professional, SEA might be a bit biased,
But how would you answer somebody if they said, I
don't know, I have a pretty basic tax situation. Is
going to the tax software? Is that going to be
okay for me? Or do I really need to hire
a pro?
Speaker 4 (13:54):
So it really depends, you know, to some extent that
person who's trying to hire someone you need think about,
like what your skill sets are. So I really do
think it's based on that person individually. If you're financially savvy,
then I actually think I mean, I've seen professionals do
a disservice a lot to clients in general, but especially
even smaller, simpler situations because because it's so simple, I mean,
(14:19):
you could literally plug it into software. So yeah, actually
I'm a huge proponent of that when it's simple, and
then the minute it gets too complex, I would say that, Yeah.
Once there's businesses people tend to they're just not looking
out for the things that they need to be looking
out for.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
What is your take on the I guess it's only
new Ish at this point, But the direct file, the
IRS direct file service, Like, what are your thoughts on
that for folks who are looking to, you know, they
are looking to DIY it in comparison to some of
the other DIY filing services like TurboTax for instance.
Speaker 4 (14:50):
Well, so I haven't used the direct file, I've got
to think it would be fine. So to me, I mean,
I see them as all pretty interchangeable. Where you pull
your transcripts, so I would always pull my transcripts and
then all of those software should pretty much get to
the same resolution, especially if you've got W two's ten
and nine interest, you know, as all of the basic
(15:10):
tax documents. I don't see any problem with it.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
You said too, that when when people hire a pro,
they're often too reliant on that professional to you know,
fill out the paperwork properly. How much tax research should
we be doing as individuals and where should we turn
for that research? Makes me think of like when we're
talking about rental properties, man, people will reach in and say,
I want to I want to have a rental property,
(15:33):
but I'm gonna I'm going to hire a property manager
first thing, and my advice typically is that you should
manage your own property for a couple of years that
you know the questions to ask when you do eventually
hire a property a property manager. Tell me how how
you think that should check out when we're talking about
hiring someone to help you with your taxes.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Yeah, I mean, I believe in that people should understand
what you know. You have to understand something before you
delegate it. And to some extent, there are certain things
in our life that are so complicated that it's not
worth to like, maybe, you know, if I'm going to
hire an electrician, I probably don't feel like I should
understand everything before hiring that person. But I believe that,
like the finance, tax realm, it's like so critical to
(16:12):
us that even if you're going to delegate it to
someone awesome, you still want to have a pulse on
what's going on, And especially if your stuff is simple,
then it's like really a good idea to understand it.
So sometimes that can mean maybe you delegate it quickly,
but you have a professional that's willing to explain or
answer some of that stuff so you learn, or you
could always handle it yourself if it's on the simpler side,
(16:32):
and then delegate it out. But but I mean to me,
the best place to go would be the resources I'm creating,
so it'd be my YouTube channel. And then I also
have a free tax tax law community, so actual tax
law dot Com. And then I've created like a full
community with like resources. It's free, it's like people post questions.
I do monthly workshops. So I've literally just tried to
(16:54):
create as much accessible information as possible. And I think
that's a good idea for anyone who wants to understand
a bit of what's going on.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Jasmin is a total pro. She's getting the plug in
there before we get to the end of the episode.
Of course, we'll make sure to link to all that
in our show notes, Jasmine, so folks can know exactly
where to find you. But let's say, like, yes, you
do have a small business, Okay, your taxes are getting
a bit more complex, and we've talked about on the
show too, just even red flags that might go up
that might cause someone to say, oh, this guy is
(17:24):
like one of these ghost filers. He's totally gonna say
I'm completely eligible for all of these deductions and in reality,
and I'm a refund I'm going to be left holding
the bag. How should someone think about vetting a tax
pro I guess, like, are there specific questions that you
should ask them?
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Yeah? I mean, well, so first off, I believe in
like you should just always assume you're going to be
left holding the bag. Okay, just to be clear, like
it's not even good bad ghosts prep whatever. I mean
not to say you can always sue an accountant, right,
but that's really what it would be, because the IRS
is going to always leave you holding the bag. And
then it's whether you then can go back on your accountant,
you know, just a separate question. I mean, as far
(18:02):
as vetting people, I would make sure they're licensed, which
is not a given right because you have to be
licensed to be a hairstylist. You do not have to
be licensed to prepare tax returns. So I think that's
like a bare minimum that's crazy. By the way, it
is crazy, and it's just they tried to pass it,
you know, way back, and it was deemed unconstitutional. So
it just needs to be done by Congress. The IRS
(18:23):
just doesn't have control over it, and so so bare
minimum licensed to write a lot of people will come
to me and they'll be like, my CPA did this
and I'm like, this CPA is not a CPA. And
by the way, they didn't even put your like put
their name on your return. It was ghost preparation right
where it's a self prepared ghost preparation super not allowed
complete violation that alone, I mean, just seeing that is like,
(18:46):
do not hire that person. But then I always say,
like a lot of times we have a good gut,
you know, And so in general, what I think you're
looking for is I would just like get to know
a couple of people. And to me, you're always looking
for some one that cares. Which it's just so we
can say, well, how do we know if they care,
But it's just you can tell, you know, like especially
(19:07):
when you have multiple options, And I would go for
the person that cares, because not only, of course do
they care more about you as a client, but the
person who cares to do a good job, right because
tax law.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Just keeps changing.
Speaker 4 (19:21):
And I think that's that's what I've seen has made
the worst professionals over the years, is like someone can
say they have thirty years of experience, but if they
really weren't enjoying what they were doing and didn't really
care the whole time, they tend to just not learn
that much, and because there's there's too much to keep
up with, we just have to look stuff up. And
so if they don't really care, they're just less likely
to do a good job.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Find someone who likes taxes as much as Jasmin Dat's right,
So who's taking those classes?
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Right? Right?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
I'm curious to hear your take two about holistic tax planning.
I think for a lot of individuals, there seems to
be a focus on paying the least amount of tax
in the given tax year, like how can I maximize
my reflect even all the commercials like when the tax
reps off where it's all about maximizing your tax refund woohoo,
and then all the bells and whistles go off and
people are super stoked because it's more cash than their account.
(20:08):
How do you think about the desire that folks have
to pay less tax now versus the ability to kind
of pay pay less tax in the future, And it
just involves different choices along the way, And how do
you coach your your clients on that.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
I mean, I'm always long term focused, you know, but
of course, in general, people are very susceptible to short
term gains. Right, So you think about even like I
don't know the weight loss industry, it's like more exciting
to click on, you know, six pack abs in ten
days than the alternative. But yeah, I mean that's a
really good point. With tax it's so easy for people
(20:46):
to sell the short term thing, and there have been
so many situations I've seen where that is adverse in general. Right,
So it's like if you knew you were going to
pay ten thousand dollars more for the next three years,
but then have a tax free sale of your business
for ten million dollars, like you would choose that all
day long, like you would choose the ten million dollars savings.
(21:07):
And so I've seen people make a lot of decisions
like that. It's typically more in the business owner realm,
or you could speak to retirement accounts as well the
same way. But yeah, that's to me, that's probably one
of the biggest differentiators with US versus I would say
most of this like online market, when people do sell,
it's just it's that shortcut way to sell and say,
I'm going to save you a ton of money right
(21:28):
this moment. But I always look at it like if
that were my business what would I want, well, to
be honest as a business owner, especially there are other considerations.
I mean, we want to reduce tax, we also want
to reduce IRIS exposure. We don't want to if I
can save twenty thousand dollars this year, but I might
get tied up in a three year long audit with
a one hundred thousand dollars bill, Like it may not
(21:49):
be worth it to that business owner, and so to me.
The way I do it a lot of times is
like presenting the risks and the benefits, both short and
long term. And usually and owners have different risk profiles
on what they wanted to.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
Okay, well, just a second ago, you did say retirement accounts.
So on the note of a traditional or wroth, do
you have a preference, like do you lean towards one
over the other or does it truly come down to
the individual And there're personal circumstances.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
I mean, my personal preference is always going to be wroth,
But that's because of assumptions I make for myself, for example,
Whereas there are some people that traditional cold can work for.
But it really it comes down to I mean for
roth right for me, Like I don't even believe in retirement.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
Right, So in theory, if.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I'm going to keep working until I die, which was
hopefully three hundred years from now, then you know I
would want to do a wroth because I'm going to
be making more over time. So it always comes down
to your assumptions of where you're going to be later.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, okay, So then would the traditional apply more to
somebody who has maybe a more earthly understanding of their mortality,
not just that.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
I think traditional is for someone that probably does not
only expects to retire, but then expects to really not
make as much. Right, I don't think those are the
same thing, because exactly in theory, if you're in if
you're investing, you're building assets, you're building value, you very
well may be in a higher you really should be
in a higher tax bracket later. And then we're also
betting on what's Congress going to do. You know, they're
(23:20):
going to increase tax rates, which is usually our assumption
is probably it's going to go up, not down. So
you'd really have to just know that when you retire,
you're going to be making a lot less than whatever
you're currently doing today, and even then you're still giving
up control over your money, which is not my favorite thing.
And of course I see the back end of it,
(23:41):
which is when we prep returns. I see the number
of people that need access to their money and just
take the penalty. And it's just really the worst case scenario.
They take the money, they need it, they have the penalty,
and then of course you get taxed in that year,
so it throws up their tax bracket for all these
other years when they lower tax brackets, and then the
(24:01):
year they withdraw it all in one it's a huge
high tax bracket. So it's really worst case scenario. And
you know, so really evaluating whether losing that control of
your money is also worth it.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Okay, quick, find a little follow up here. What kind
of situations do you see folks in where they are saying, hey,
actually like we do need to tap that traditional retirement
account where they are kind of getting that triple whammy
in effect.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
It just varies.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
I mean, I would say the most common probably is
related to business or investment. People make some type of
decision that they want to they need to invest in
their business, they want to start a business. It's usually
they think, oh I'm going to make more, you know,
but you take such a hit, so that's.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
One or metically they need a lump some and they
take it from the wrong place, not thinking about the
tax consequences.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
Yeah, I mean a lot of them are aware of
the tax consequences.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
It's just to them, it's just going to be worth it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Yeah, all right, We've got more to get to with you, Jasmine.
We're going to talk about trying to avoid IRS tax onits.
We're also going to talk about filing an extension, why
that might be a good idea for a whole lot
of tax filers. We'll get through that and more with
Jazmin Dlucci right after this, we are.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Back from the break talking with Jasmine Delucci. And Jasmine,
I am kind of curious if you just rolled your
eyes when we reached out to you about talking about
tax stuff, so that this is going to kind of
publish not too it seem like the kind of person
who rolls over. I mean, is there anything that folks
can do by the time this episode comes out, Like,
are there any actual helpful tax maneuvers that folks can
(25:32):
make now? Or is it just too late?
Speaker 4 (25:34):
I mean it's definitely limited, you know, So I would
say things like, I mean retirement accounts always an option,
but that's gonna be the main one, especially for employees. Otherwise,
most things economically need to happen in the year.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Okay, and so we're starting to think about tax planning
for your twenty twenty five taxes, not twenty twenty four
taxes necessarily at this point in the.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Year pretty much.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Yeah, okay. What's your take on.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Tax refunds because some people say that's an interest free
loan to the government.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Why would you do that?
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Other people say, man, it's like this deferred method of savings.
It helps me jumpstart other financial goals because I don't know,
it's kind of surprise money coming out of nowhere. I'm
not really thinking about it most of the time. How
do you help your clients think about tax refunds and
whether they're beneficial or not.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
Well, so, most of my clients are business owners, so
they are usually paying in, not usually getting much of
a refund. And so I mean, in general for them
to have gotten a refund, we would have had to
tell them to pay too much because they're going to
ask us like how much to pay in, So we don't.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
We don't do that.
Speaker 4 (26:40):
We tell them to pay in what they're required to
pay in. I do always ask for their preference, but
most people that are a business owner answer that they
want to pay in the least possible to avoid penalties.
They don't usually answer that like I want to pay
in extra. It's usually more like the employee side, where
the the withholdings is automatic through your W two, so
(27:02):
they might want to withhold just a little bit extra
for that peace of mind.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Are for those employees? Do you ever see scenarios where
someone actually does owe the IRS a whole lot of money?
They've got a bill. I don't know if that's an
accurate way to think about it. You've got a bill
that's due to the IRS. But are there options for
some of those folks out there who might have a
large sum that they don't have the cash on hand
to take care of.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Yes, yeah, so you can do a payment plan with
the IRS. So it all it's always d you in April, right,
so that's when your taxes do you. It doesn't feel
like that because people extend, but that's an extension to file,
not to pay and so. But yeah, if you want
to either those a couple options. Sometimes people will just
wait to file until October knowing that they already owe
(27:45):
the money but they don't have it. So you can
wait until the IRS knows that you have the money
and then just pay it with your return. At that point,
it's just going to come with penalties and interest. Alternatively,
you can set up a payment plan. It takes a
little bit of work to set up the IRS. It
doesn't make anything too easy, but if you set that up,
it's actually at a little bit less of a pain
(28:06):
like a penalty as far as the penalties that are
basically accruing for late payment.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
You seem to be a proponent of people filing extensions,
and like you just said, you still have to pay
your expected tax bill on by April fifteenth even if
you're filing the extension. But why why do you like
for people to have that extra time and why do
you encourage people to go with the extension?
Speaker 4 (28:29):
Yeah, so, I mean the main reason is to be
able to check your IRS transcripts. So if you don't extend,
your transcripts are just not going to be fully populated.
But if you do extend, you'll have a chance to
check your transcripts. So to me, I would say the
ideal scenario is you get everything together in the beginning
of the year. You can even have your return prepped
in the beginning of the year so you know exactly
what you owe, go ahead and pay it in if
(28:51):
you owe, and then extend, check your transcripts and then file.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And that's essentially to make sure you're not filing a
non inclining information that the IRS has so you can
so you can. It's like it's like double checking your work.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
Yeah, exactly, very nice.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Okay, let's talk about getting trouble with the IRS. Should
normal folks out there, should they be worried about getting
audited by the IRS? Like you talked about this three
year tax battle, maybe like one hundred thousand dollars bill
that comes due to attorneys that you might have to hire.
In my heart, like, how do you ensure that this
is something that you can avoid?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
I mean, you can never guarantee that you won't.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
Get audited, but make it less likely, yeah, I mean
as far as less likely. I mean, I would say
the biggest audit trigger that I see all the time
is reporting a huge loss on a schedule. See that
is like basically just like just ask just like beg
for an audit. If you if you want one just
like slap, especially if you want to put no income
(29:48):
in the gross receipts line and then just put like
negative fifty thousand. I mean, your your return will be
pulled so fast.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
I told does it all the time though, But then
I just moved to South America and it's all time.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I guess he's just gotten lucky.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Yeah, I'm sure there are some people that don't get audited,
but man, that is it's tracked so closely because the
number of things that it affects.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Right.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
So, for example, I was involved in a case where
it wasn't the audit of the individual. This one was
actually because they tracked preparers as well. And so they
tracked this prepare a lot of times. The reason they
do a schedule see that's a loss or that is
really like it looks like a fake business is it
generates the earned income credit. So for this preparer, he
(30:27):
basically the ratio of the number of people that had
scheduled see losses and earned income credits was so high
that they knew it was probably fake it and let's
be honest, it was, and so they they audited him
actually in this case. But oh, interesting but that's the
number one thing I see. And so if you're going
to have a loss, make it, make it an escort.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Probably it would be one often.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
So what is actually involved in an audit as someone
who thankfully has not been audited and we're hoping that
trend continues for our business too, what what is involved
in that? And how painful is it?
Speaker 4 (31:02):
It's pretty painful, Like anything with the irs, it's inconsistent.
So I'm sure there are I mean, there are some
audits where I'm like, surprisingly, I'm like, wow, this one
wasn't bad.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
But that's more the exception.
Speaker 4 (31:17):
In general, it's it's just such an administratively terrible process.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
So it's like best case scenario.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
A lot a lot of the times is literally just
you wasting just like a catastrophic amount of time doing
like just receipt dumping. You know, you're just going back
and forth, giving a ton of documents. Sometimes the auditors
just ignore the documents. Sometimes they just like it's not
in a format that they like, and so they ignore
them again. And so if you don't like that result,
(31:45):
then we just taking it further just takes a lot
of time, So we go to appeals, we go to
IRS Council, and a lot of times I'm taking some
of the stupidest arguments to appeals and IRIS Council because
the lower level auditor just don't I don't want to
like they're not bad people, but it's just like you know,
they got the checkli and it's not on there.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, just making your life hard. So let's talk about businesses,
because business owners obviously they have the ability to deduct
certain expenses that normal folks can't. Sounds like this is
more your specialty, jasmine, But talk to us about that
different treatment, Like what are some of the common deductions
that business owners are eligible for, Maybe some deductions that
they're leaving on the table that yeah, they really could
(32:22):
call back some of those tax dollars.
Speaker 4 (32:23):
I mean, so as far as deductions, So I know
the way a lot of people paint it is like
they'll say, oh, there's like these you know, number of
pages in the tax code or number of deductions, Like
it's really not like that. There's no like limit limited number.
So business owner, we've got the oversighted statute that everyone
likes to points to you, right one sixty two a
ordinary necessary business expenses. So that's I mean, that's literally
(32:46):
the rule. So there's not like a limited number of deductions.
It really comes down to what you need for your
business is probably a deduction. And then because certain areas
are subject to abuse, we do have certain limitations on
a lot of those personal items. And so that's where
a lot of my content ends up being focused around,
(33:07):
because everyone that posts just quotes the statute and ignores
all of the rest of the law. But there's not
really a limit, it really is. I mean that's why
when you think of things like cell phone, it's not
like there's some special cell phone statute that tells us
that your cell phone's deductible. It's just the fact that
if you can prove your business use of it, then
you can deduct it.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
So what are the biggest misconceptions then about deductions and
how do people tend to screw that up?
Speaker 4 (33:32):
I Mean, the biggest one that I see is people
reading the statute saying ordinary and necessary and then they're like, oh, well,
I think, you know insert here is ordinary and necessary.
You know, I think I needed to go I'm trying
to think of like the most ridiculous I needed to
go to the gym to be really fit, so I
see like things like that, right, which kind of makes
sense logically if you're like a personal trainer and so
(33:54):
you start using your brain, which is not how taxile works.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
So I see a lot of that.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
There's like a lot of like, you know, well, this
person's on OnlyFans, so they get to deduct all their
cosmetic procedures and so you know, we just we have
law in place, we have court cases in place that
tell us the answer, and a lot of those personal items.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
What's tricky though, is that like there are certain things
that we like, certain expenses we incur as individuals that
are ordinary and necessary to like human living. So for instance,
like meals, right, it's like, no matter what to survive,
like you probably have to eat lunch. And so I've
seen it discussed where if it's beyond what's ordinary and necessary,
(34:32):
like so for instance, when it comes to a meal,
it's like, okay, would you have already purchased that, well, yeah,
sure to just not be hungry in order to be healthy.
But if it's something that's like special, so for instance,
if it's a fancy lunch where you're going to take
a client out, like I've seen you even cite a
certain court case where it's like, well, you're not going
to be expected to go there with your mom's peanut
(34:53):
butter or not your mom, but like the peanut butter
and jelly sandwich I made immediately reverted back to high
school days, but like it's expected that you would partake
in that lunch as well to not be weird. So, like,
it's an interesting dynamic. How on one hand, if it's
ordinary and necessary to the exp operation of the business,
it's it's like, yes, you're allowed to deduct that, but
(35:15):
basically it needs to be above ordinary and necessary on
like a personal standpoint in order for it to even
be considered. Is that maybe a helpful way to think
about it.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
Yeah, So the way the tax court sees it is
they see two statutes that are conflicting. So we've got
one sixty two A ordinary necessary business expenses, and then
we have two sixty two A, which is that personal
family living expenses are not deductible. Yeah, So that's the
way they approached in all their cases, where they say, well,
there's these two conflicting statutes and they've they've had to
(35:44):
just draw a line depending on the type of expense, say,
you know, at some point this is just and that's
that term, right, inherently personal. At some point, this is
so inherently personal that we're just not even if you
show that, like you talked about business at lunch, it's
like you were gonna eat and so usually with those
types of things, it just comes down to abuse. Honestly,
(36:07):
it's like, why do they do this? I think to
some extent it's just to prevent abuse, and so with
things like food, it.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Just don't it.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
It's like, you know, it's the what's the phrase, like
pigs get bad, the hugs get slaughtered.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
It's kind of like that.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
So you want to like the abuse of those deductions,
is that more likely to trigger an audit? If you
are getting a little too greedy with some of the
things you're claiming.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
I wouldn't say necessarily to trigger it, but once you're
in the audit to lose.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, okay, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Something else you made a video about recently, You talked
about family business travel, and that's something else where people
can get caught up on the wrong side of kind
of the whole deduction thing. How how can people know
if like a family trip, a vacation is deductible or not,
and like what if you're mixing business and personal? How
how do people think through that?
Speaker 4 (36:55):
I mean it, you know, my answer is always like
what is the what does the tax law say? You know,
especially for something like travel, it's not so much I
think when we default to like our gut reaction, like oh,
I think this is really business related, it's just not
just off base. You know, in something like travel. IRC
two seventy four is so extensive. It is because travel
(37:16):
is such a high abuse area. You know, Congress is
aware of that, so they literally created extreme amounts of
statute for so many different situations. So when it comes
to travel, it would literally be like what are the requirements?
And that's why in that video specifically I did that's
one narrow area of two seventy four, Like two seventy four.
I'm about to do more videos because there's there's so much.
(37:38):
It's like depending on the situation, if it's international conference
that's under literally has a separate statute, then if it's
a domestic conference, so every area is different. But for
bringing your family on family trips, we've got two seventy
four M three, so we've got a specific statute that
literally tells us it's a three part test.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
We have three requirements.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Have to be an employer of your business, not a
board of director ten onion in contractor, but have to
be an employee. They have to do bonafide business work. Right,
so that of course, again it always the danger is
always like you interpret it yourself. So you go, oh, yeah,
like it was super necessary for them to be like
they're you know, they were chit chatting with my colleagues.
(38:20):
But what we know from court cases is that's not
considered bonafide business. And so then that more substantive work
really for the business. And then it goes to if
it would if it would have otherwise been deductible had
you not been there. But I guess if you're if
you're trying to go like not tax law and just
have you said like how to think about it?
Speaker 3 (38:40):
I mean, would you do it for not your family?
Speaker 1 (38:43):
That's all a good threshold, yeah, a good filter to
kind of run it through. All right, Jasmine, we are.
We've got some more topics to get to, like passing
wealth along to your kids, the tax treatment of those
assets will get to that more. Right after this we're back.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
We're still talking with Jasmine Deluci talking about taxes. Jasmine,
one one question I have for you is there's so
many commercials out there, especially this time of year, claiming
that these companies can help you navigate I R S issues,
And man, I feel like even on your channel, you've
talked to people who have hired the wrong person to
(39:28):
help them interface with the IRS, and it's just led
to a lot of pain, a lot of wasted money.
How how do you help people think through those claims
that like, hey, just pay us a bunch and we'll
solve your IRS tax problem.
Speaker 4 (39:40):
Yeah, it's the number one I mean, that's a huge
scam industry. I'd be very careful of anybody claiming that
they're definitely going to reduce your burden. I mean, the
thing about it is, I know a lot of times
people use like the fear of the I R S right,
And I do think there are concerns about the fact
that the IRS is difficult to work with, administratively frustrating
(40:02):
to work with, but they're not typically malicious, and so
things like trying to get rid of your tax debt
to some extent you qualify or you don't, and really
the person you want on your team is someone that's
again going back to like caring, right, someone that cares
to actually help you and is going to going to
(40:22):
be with you to get through what is a very
administratively difficult process, and a lot of times it really
those companies, you know, they take all their money up front,
so why would they still care, you know, six months later,
because that process is going to take I mean typically
a year at least a year.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
How how much of your business or how much of
your time do you spend defending clients or working on
these on these audits.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
I spend a good amount of time.
Speaker 4 (40:47):
To me, I view it as it's like I want
to stay up to date on everything the IRS is doing,
and it's so inconsistent that I have to have a
lot of data entry points to see exactly what's going on.
So I do it is one of my favorite things
time on. Okay, Yeah, So the ones that I spend
time on are usually I like to spend time on
the ones that it's a dispute. So it's a lot
(41:08):
of time, Like the tax is at dispute, so an
IRS audit would be an example, or it's an IRS
notice that's incorrect, right, So we're trying to remove a
couple hundred thousand dollars in tax For example, I don't
spend so much time.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
My partner actually does. My dad he spends.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Time on the ones where you owe the irs but
you can't afford to pay them.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Got it, man, Okay, So Jasmine loves it. She's a
glutton for punishment, that's what she's saying. Going back, so
you were you kind of touched on this a second ago,
how you expect taxes essentially to go up in the future.
It's part of why you're a fan of the wrath
is that because of the fact that you're just looking
at the numbers and you're like, these numbers don't compute,
and so therefore you're like, all right, taxes have to
(41:47):
go up.
Speaker 4 (41:48):
Well, I mean historically tax rates have been higher, and
it's usually easier to pass tax increases than tax decreases,
it seems like.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
So that's more of just a guess.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, and well I guess even right now, we're we're
kind of at a point where we're going to have
some sort of new tax law no matter what. Right,
either the tax cuts, tax cuts and Job Act will
be extended or it'll sunset. And and maybe it's not extended,
maybe there's some new formulation. Like how do you think
about the uncertainty around tax law right now?
Speaker 4 (42:18):
I don't know if I think about it too much.
For me, it's it's I know that tax law is
just going to keep changing. It's like just the way
people seem to be wired. There's always special interest. It's
such a political topic that I just make the assumption
like every five years or four years now at this point,
there's going to be a lot of new stuff for
me to learn, and so that that's really the way
I approach it, just like very logically, I'm like, if
(42:40):
I just stay up to date, then I can always
maximize what we've got.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah, that makes sense. It's honestly probably a good way
to think about it. It's like a moving target for sure. Yeah,
well that's just the formature it takes. And yeah, it's
constantly it's ever evolving, which is oftentimes why like there's
not a whole lot of times that we say to
considering hiring a professional, but specifically with it when it
comes to tax law, it is constantly changing. There are
so many nuances. I don't know how many numbers and
(43:04):
letters that you stated so far during this conversation, But
like it's so much to keep up with, and it
pertains too how much it is that you're going to
end up paying taxes a lot of money. It's take
too in your business. But for folks out there who
are looking further ahead off into the future, generational wealth
is what we're talking about here, Like what's the best
way you think to pass on wealth alone to future
generations Because obviously, I mean we've talked about before retirement accounts,
(43:28):
they don't have that step up basis. How can folks
have that to where their kids, folks who are inheriting
that money pay the least amountain taxes possible.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
It's the best options always real estate, And so real
estate has such a strong lobby. We've got such favorable
tax laws for real estate, and I think that'll just
continue no matter whenever I see tax reform, Like the
real estate lobby is just so strong. They find a
way to weasel into even things that weren't intended for
them at all. And so with real estate, I mean,
(43:58):
the classic thing is you obviously purchase real estate. We
know it goes up in value, but the tax law
actually gives us credit as if it goes down in value,
which is a great payoff. And then as long as
you just don't sell it, let your kids inherit it,
you get the step up in basis and you can
just keep playing that game, you know, forever.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Brilliant Love it, Jasmine. Thank you so much for taking
the time to join us on how to Money today.
Where can our listeners find out more about you and
the content you're creating?
Speaker 4 (44:25):
Yeah, either on my YouTube so at tax leverage or
I also have actual tax law dot com.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
I created totally free community.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
There's no I'm not like upselling people or it's not
some like you know, I mean a lot of times
people create free stuff that's not really helpful. But this
is really just me trying to provide free value for
a lot of people that I feel like a lot
of times are hiring the wrong help, or not hiring help,
or just like often left in a worse position than
they should be.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Very cool. We'll link to all that, Jasmine. Thank you
so much for talking with us today.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Of course, thank you guys, all right, Matt that that
was a great conversation. I feel like Asmin is smarter
than I could ever hope to be, and I think
you have to be when it comes well, everyone's got
to be, like it's it's not a hard I guess
hurdle to jump over.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
Now you've got to be pretty buttoned up, especially when
it comes to the details, especially when it comes to
some of the like the business law or the business
tax sort of sector of when it comes to tax planning.
Was your the big TAKEO.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
I was going to say that intersection of passion and
like she's goin, yeah, she's I think I've ever.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Talked to anybody who was as excited about tax law.
No ass me neither the fact that she's yeah, she's like,
I'm either working or I'm working out something. Actually, I'm
glad you pushed her on. Come on, like, what's something
that you The others are going to say that this
is a dumb use of your money, not just for
you furthering educator.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I think it's like, I don't know, I love what
we do, and there are elements that I would be
doing of this job, whether or not I got paid.
Like I'm just fascinated by personal finance. So I get that.
I get that, although I don't know if I'm as
into it as as she is into Texas. But okay,
so I think my big takeaway from this conversation happened
right there at the end where she's talking about the
benefits of real estate when trying to transfer generational wealth,
(46:09):
and you and I we talk about real estate. We've
actually become less keen on pushing people towards investing in
rental real estate in recent years, given that it's just
more difficult financially.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
To pull off.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
But I think that's actually a really good point to
highlight here, is that if one of your key financial
goals is to leave an inheritance for the next generation,
the best way to do it from a tax standpoint
is to invest in rental real estate. So if that
goal of investing in real estate is a super long
term thing, if you're like, I'm going to own this
thing until I die and I want my kids to
(46:42):
inherit it, I think then it's beneficial from multiple standpoints.
You're minimizing the transaction costs obviously of buying real estate.
You get to see the appreciation, you get to get
the cash flow, and then you get to pass that
asset onto your children where that value gets reset exactly
which is pretty great. One of the coolest things about
real state, and every time it's so funny. I was
(47:02):
thinking about a property that I own that I'm having
to clean it up and find a new tenant, and
it just is kind of a pain. It's like my
least favorite time when I have to turn over that
property because it just requires more effort. And I was like,
you know what, my kids will be thankful that I
held on to it.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
Someday.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
I can sell it right now and pay the tax,
but hey, this is a long term investment, and just
because this is a pain today doesn't mean it's not
going to hopefully pay off in spades tomorrow. Came in,
don't by tomorrow, I mean like that, like, yeah, ye, don't,
don't hit that easy button.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
That's what I was going to say. When it comes
to thinking about that. My big takeaway is going to
be when she was talking about the risk associated with
taking different deductions, and I think this applies to whether
you are in an individual or a business, And essentially
what I heard her say was that just because you
can take a certain deduction doesn't mean you should. And
I think when like it immediately made me think about
investing for your future. And just because you can invest
(47:55):
all of your money in crypto doesn't mean you should
do that. And in fact that there's I would say,
a higher likelihood of there being a worse outcome were
you to do that. So I don't know. I just
like that overall takeaway. Just because you can, that doesn't
necessarily mean that you should.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
But yeah, I mean, I guess if you put it
all on crypto, or if you had five years ago,
people would say, Matt, that I would have crushed. But
there's still there's still so much more risk.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
I think there's a lot more folks who have lost
a tremendous amount of money though kind of messing around
with something specifically like crypto. But all right, our beer
that you and I enjoyed during this episode was a
sequench ale, which I think we're supposed to read as sequential.
Oh okay, you think so? Maybe, Like I'm trying to
tie it back to the numbers a little bit. This
is a beer by dogfish Head. What are your thoughts here?
(48:43):
All right?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
So this was I thought light refreshing, It was briny,
had some live action.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
Going on, It has some salt, for sure. Man.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
It was almost like the beer equivalent of a low
key margarita and so.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
But even less boozy. Yeah, like it was more like
lemon lied lemon lime Gatorade is yeah, yeah, yeah because
of the salt, because like that's what Gatorad and power Aye,
that's what those drinks have going on. Right, Yeah, you're
a runner now, like you're you're hammering some of those
those sports drinks. Like that's what you gotta have some
sodiums in there, that's right, that's what the guy going
on this had, the electrolytes, it brought it. Yeah, and
(49:15):
this was I thought this was really tasty. And you're
running a race and they had this over on the side,
would you go for some of that?
Speaker 4 (49:19):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (49:20):
For sure, probably would unless I was like going for
a pr or something like that. But because I doubt
a beer is gonna help me in my quest. But
this one, this one is tasty, and I like that
it's just kind of light and refreshing. It's not over
the top. And I'm always a fan of kind of
salty briny beers. I think of like Westbrooks Goza that
being like the classic super duper briny briny beer, and uh,
this this was like a much lighter version of that,
(49:41):
but now it makes you want to go harder than.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
That direct and this is even better for something like
the beach though, like you're sitting there like like just
so you know, folks, we love the big, heavy craft beers,
but that is not the kind of style you want
when you're sitting there under a one hundred degrees sun
around the beach. True story. All Right, that's gonna be
it for our episode talking about tax today, Jasmine Delucchi
will again make sure to link to some of the
things that she mentioned up on the website at howdomoney
(50:06):
dot com. Buddy, that's gonna be it for this one.
Until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,
Hosts And Creators
Joel Larsgaard
Matthew Altmix
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