April 9, 2025 • 53 mins
Former "Girls Next Door" star Holly Madison was naive when it came to Hollywood, fame, and love. Since being thrust into the spotlight 20 years ago for being in a famously open relationship...she's learned a thing or two.
Now, she's sharing the compelling "I Choose Me" moment when she opted to leave the life and relationship she knew for a chance at a brighter future. How does she feel about not having had kids with Hef? Newly single, will she date again? Holly is opening up to Jennie like never before.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. Hi, everyone,
welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about
the choices we make and where they lead us. On
this podcast, I want to talk to people that exemplify
strength and bravery. Being courageous and standing up for yourself
(00:26):
can be one of the hardest things you can do.
My guest today is incredibly strong and brave. You know
her from being Hugh Hefner's number one girlfriend, which was
captured on the wildly successful reality show The Girl's Next Door,
and her books Down the Rabbit Hole and The Vegas Diaries.
(00:47):
She co hosts the podcast Girls Next Level, and you
can catch the new season of her show The Playboy
Murders on ID and streaming on Max. May fifth, Please
welcome Holly Madison to the podcast. Hello beautiful, so nice
to meet you you too.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm such a huge fan. I love nine oh two
one oh so much.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Oh gosh, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I'm really happy to talk to you today because even
though our journeys have been very different, we are both
independent women and there are most likely a lot of
similarities between us. Then, yeah, a lot of people welcomed
you into their homes when you are on the Girls
next Door reality show, And I cannot even believe that
(01:29):
it has been twenty years since that show.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, it's so crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, does that seem like a totally different lifetime for you?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
One hundred percent it does. It's so weird, Like, I
can't believe it's been twenty years since it debuted now,
And you know, Bridget and I have a podcast where
we rewatch and we talk about the show a little bit,
and it's just crazy just how much just culture has
changed too, and little things like I'm sure when you
watch your show too, you notice things that you're like,
we even did that back then, right.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, there's certain things that went down that you could
never do now on a TV show totally. I'm sure
you see that with your show.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
One hundred percent. We'll be watching scenes and I'm like,
I don't think you could do a scene like this, because,
especially for reality TV in the two thousands, it was
really just kind of showing a person's lifestyle. You didn't
have to have that much plot or drama. So sometimes
I'll be watching it and I'm like, this is cute
and all, but I don't think you could do this now,
because like, nothing's really happening in the scene.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Right, where's the plot?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So what's coxactly?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Before we get into life at the mansion, I want
to find out about your upbringing. What did you want
to be when you were growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I think the first thing I wanted to be when
I was super super little and didn't really know what
that meant was I wanted to be Alice in Wonderland.
I thought you could pick a character and be that.
But once I knew what a job was, I kind
of was all over the place, Like I wanted to
be a writer. I wanted to be in the entertainment industry.
I didn't really know. I just kind of wanted to
get out there and do something. And as I got older,
(03:02):
I was in college, I transferred down to Loyal La
Mary Mount in LA, and I knew I wanted to
be in the entertainment industry in some capacity, but I
didn't really know what.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
But you had entertainment industry on your mind, Like did
you want to be famous?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I did for some reason, and I think it's because
I always had a hard time like relating to people
and like bonding to other people, and I had this weird,
immature idea that if you were famous and people felt
connected to you in that parasocial way, that was like
a shortcut to connecting with people. And you know, spoiler alert,
it's not. But I think that was kind of what
I was thinking deep down. And I was a double
(03:40):
major in theater in psychology, and I'd always you know,
loved like the women of Playboy, like Pamela Anderson and
Anna Nicole, and I always kind of knew my journey
was probably going to start there and that was maybe
going to be my foot in the door, and I
didn't know it would turn into such like a bigger
thing than I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You know, it seems so familiar that what you're saying,
because it was the same way for me with Beverly
Hills Nina Twoina. I had no idea that that would
lead me to the life that I've gotten to live.
And I wondered at the same time, like, do you
get tired of talking about the past or you know
kind of where you started? Because for me, I have
(04:20):
I can see how people would say, oh, I want
to be known for something else, or I wish I
could shake that, but I can't and that's the fact,
And so I have embraced it to the point where
I love talking about it because it got me everything
that I have Now, I wouldn't be you who I
am totally.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, I went through a phase where I wanted nothing
to do with it. This was maybe like I left
the Mansion and Girls next Door. I'd done my own
spin off show for a couple of years, and right
after that, I was like, I just want to go
a completely different direction. I don't want to be associated
with Playboy or have anybody remember that at all. But
that's like such a losing game, like nobody's ever going
(04:57):
to So I learned pretty quickly that that's like like
the fight you can't win. And also because the reality
show is presenting me as myself and people thought they
were seeing my real life, but there was a lot
about it that was manipulated. I never kind of run
out of moments where I want to set the record straight.
So I really don't be sick of talking about it
(05:18):
because of that. I'm curious, because I'm such a huge
nine h two one zero fan. When you first got
that role, did you know it was going to be
a show that lasted or did you think, oh, this
is just going to be my first thing on the
way to something else.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I didn't even think it through at all. I was
just so excited to get the opportunity, and you know,
see what happened. And I don't think any of us
knew or expected or thought that it would turn into
what it turned into, something that we're all still interested
in all these years later. It's crazy, it's so cool,
but it's really cool. I know. Yeah, so when for
(05:51):
a lot of us, the first example we have of
love is our parents. What kind of relationship did you
see your parents having?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
My parents are still together, they're still married, so they
had a great relationship. But one thing I noticed, it's interesting.
I never saw them fight once growing up, and I've
never talked to them about this, but I have to
assume they made a decision like we're not going to
fight in front of the kids. They're not going to
see any of that, which is incredibly admirable. But also
I grew up with no conflict resolution skills whatever, because
(06:24):
I never saw it play out. So I'm kind of
the one where for the longest time in relationships, if
even like a little thing flared up. I'm like, okay,
well we're breaking up. Well it's done, you know, yeah,
that's over. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
No, that's really really interesting. And how did you learn
how to do conflict? You know, didn't see it.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I feel like a lot of my interpersonal skills I've
only really recently developed, like within the past five years.
Like I was late diagnosed on the spectrum. So now
I understand a lot more how I work and how
I've perceived things differently over the years than maybe anybody
else would. So I feel like really only learning to
(07:05):
communicate effectively. That's been a very recent journey for me.
Like I was operating as an adult for decades without
knowing how to do it, and you know, I would
have falling outs with friends every once in a while
that would turn to like never speaking again, or you know,
relationships would end at the first fight because I just
didn't know how to do conflict at all.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, it's scary. Yeah, the communication is key. And I
too felt like I was I lost about ten years
of very important developmental, you know, normal human time by
being on a show that was like, you know, so popular,
and being working so hard for ten years on that show.
(07:49):
I feel like I missed a lot of social things.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, that's so interesting to hear because I feel the
exact same way. Of course, my situation was a little
bit different, so I was kind of living in this bubble.
But I'm sure you were so busy you're living in
a different bubble. Yeah, But I feel like my twenties,
I wasn't dating like a normal person. I wasn't, you know,
I had this, you know, career being on a reality show,
but I wasn't going out and making a career the
(08:15):
way a normal twenty something would. So for the longest time,
you know, after I left the Mansion, when I was
in my thirties, a lot of my friends would be
about ten years younger than me, because that's what I
could relate to, had this solid chunk of like arrested development.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yes, arrested development. Yep, absolutely, I can so relate. Okay,
so you moved to Los Angeles, you're in college, and
you're pursuing a career in entertainment. How does getting invited
to the Mansion come about?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That happened because I was working for Hawaiian Tropic and
at one of the events, Hugh Hefner's doctor came and
he was like, Oh, I want to invite all these
girls to the next Playboy Mansion party. And I was
so excited because back then, this was the year two
thousand and back then those were like the cool parties
to go to in town that were like really exclusive,
and I'd heard girls I knew talk about going, but
(09:03):
I didn't know very many who were invited. So I
was so excited to go. And like I said, I
was a fan of like some of the women who'd
come from Playboy, So I was so excited to go
to my first party. I didn't even stay that late
that night, it was weird. I just stayed for a
couple hours kind of toward the place, and like went
home and thought it was like the best night ever.
And then I got invited to their pool parties, which
(09:23):
were much smaller affairs, and you know, hef was at
all of those. So I got to know him and
his girlfriends a little bit, not very well, not as
well as I should have got to know him before
making some decisions I was about to make. But you know,
I thought I had a good rapport with them, so
and then I moved in after a year later, after
(09:45):
you know, being invited to my first party, and I'd
been in college and I was kind of trying to
do too much. I was a double major. I was
on scholarship, so I had to keep my grades up
to a certain amount to keep that, and I had
to work full time just to pay for like my
other bills and things like that, or as close to
full time as I could fit in. And then I
(10:06):
was also trying to audition and stuff, and it was
just trying to do too many things, so I ended
up failing at all of them. And I got to
a point where I was living with two other people
and they're like, at the last minute, I thought we
were going to resign our lease and they were like,
we're not, you know, going to resign this. We're like
going back home. So I was like, holy shit, I'm
not going to have anywhere to live. And I'd been
invited out with Helfen the girls before, and I'd always
(10:27):
said no just because I saw their whole like multiple
girlfriend relationship and thought that looked a little too much
for me. But because I had nowhere to live, I
was like, you know what, maybe I will go out
with them. Because I was at the pool party, like
right when this dilemma was going down, and one of
the butler's was like, you know, one of the girls
just got kicked out. There's like an open room here,
and I'm like, you know what, maybe I will give
(10:47):
this a try. And it turned into you know, the
next seven crazy years of my life.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, was there anybody in your life that was telling
you not to move in?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
There probably would have been if I had told people,
But I didn't tell.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Anyone, and you didn't want to hear their opinion.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
No, you know, I knew this was a very snap decision.
I knew it would be a controversial decision. I just thought,
you know what, I'm going to look back on this,
and this is going to be that crazy thing I
did in college. I didn't know it was going to
turn into a seven year long thing. And even my
family they didn't really know what was going on. For
years and years. I always kept every Everything I told
them was very pg because I was just in the
(11:26):
thick of it and in over my head and trying
to figure it out for myself. And I knew what
everybody would say, but I also knew they probably wouldn't
have any advice that would work for me. In the moment.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, I found that I did that too. I didn't
tell my family all of the details.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, sometimes when you're that age, you just kind of
want to figure it out for yourself. It's weird.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Do you think they would have advised you not to.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Move in or I mean, Julie would have said something.
But also I feel like I was always kind of
that kid that kind of did what I want. And
I'm out of the house at that point, and what
are they going to do? They don't live anywhere nearby, so.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
You just were like, who, I'm going to do what
I want. I like that. Yeah, okay, So having I
came up in the nineties, and I feel like women
were often pitted against one another.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Oh yeah, I remember all the you know, whether it
was real or not.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, the media lists loved to stoke that fire. And
I was wondering if the atmosphere that you were in
at the mansion with that group of women, was it
the same for you And did the men there help
to sort of foster or encourage that competitive nature amongst
the women.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It were so bad and it was so bad, like
when I first moved in, there were six other women
living there and you know, they would come and go,
So the roster changed a couple times within the first
four years I lived there, and nobody got along. It
was awful, and I just thought, you know, I had
like one other friend there who would be Bridget, who
would end up on Girls next door with me. But
(13:05):
other than that, I didn't get along with anybody. Everybody
was trying to get everybody kicked out, everybody's starting rumors
about each other, and I was like, this is just horrible.
And it wasn't really until after when I would look
back on how things went at the mansion, or even
right about the time I left, because this was kind
of one of the things that made me want to leave.
I didn't realize that hef was kind of like low
(13:27):
key encouraging all.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
That, like pulling the string.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, because I think that was for his ego. He
felt good if he felt like the girls were fighting
over him. And also, we couldn't get together and ever
be like, you know what, we don't feel like going
out tonight or you know what, we want to do
this like, we couldn't ever get together and you know,
unionize so to speak, if we were all friends. So
it worked to his advantage to keep everybody fighting, and
(13:51):
it was just so miserable and stressful, and when I
kind of realized that's what's going on, it was kind
of the lost straw for me, and you know the
reason I left among men any reasons. Yeah, so that
was definitely going on. And then when the cast of
characters went down to three people, it was just me,
Bridget and Kendra who ended up on the show. You know,
of course, there's a lot of that in reality TV too.
(14:12):
They always want to make things look more hostile than
they were. The fact of the matter is that Bridget
and I had lived through so much drama up to
that point that we always tried really really hard for
everybody to get along, or if something happened we didn't like,
we'd just kind of be quiet about it and put
up with it. But the show doesn't want that, so
they'll take a picture of like me sitting there with
a resting bitch face and make it look like I'm
(14:33):
giving somebody a dirty look. And then that would continue
on even after Girls next Door. Because when Kendra and
I had our spinoff shows on e they were produced
by the same executive producer who did Girls next Door.
Who was very close with hef and even after you know,
he would like pick Kendra and I against each other.
And it's to the point where we still don't speak today.
So it's very, very toxic.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
That is so sad to me. Mm hmmm, because you know,
I know you you probably feel this way too as
you get older. As I've gotten older, I realized, like
what a waste of my time and energy that was,
and like, right, how much better it feels to lift
other women up around me. Yeah, that just changes how
(15:16):
I feel about myself, how I walk around in the.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
World one hundred percent. It's so stressful being in that
conflict all the time. It's like permanent fight or flight,
especially when you live with the people.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, I mean you were dubbed as his number one. Yes, uh,
and there was quite an age difference, Like yeah, we
don't talk about that much, but Hi, he was in
his seventies and you were just twenty one. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah? I was twenty two when I'm twenty two twenty
one when I first met him.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
In the early years of getting to know him, I'm
just I'm curious, did you think I'm falling in love
or was it more like how someone might sort of
describe idolizing a cult leader or something.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
It was a little bit of both. I mean, I
think in the beginning I very much looked up to him.
I admired everything he accomplished. He seemed like such a
great guy. You know, everybody when they first meet him
kind of has that same impression. And you know, you're
going up to these pool parties and he's surrounded by
all his closest friends who have nothing but glowing things
to say about him, and you just think, Wow, this
(16:20):
is like an amazing human being. And then you know,
when I moved in, I had seen from a distance
that girls kind of came and went, and he wasn't
really settling down with anybody, so I thought I would
just be there for a short period of time. But
we really bonded, and he was very good at like
love bombing and manipulating and things, So it did start
to feel like more of a relationship, and I did
(16:42):
get very emotionally involved, so I would say like later
it felt like falling in love, but it wasn't what
I had on my mind when I like first came
to a party or anything.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Like that you said before, or that the whole concept
of going there and having there be other women and
the whole group didn't really feel right to you. Did
you battle with that same feeling a lot during your
(17:12):
time there?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Absolutely, And I made it very clear that I didn't
like the multiple girlfriend thing. I didn't want it, and
he was always like, well, it's not always going to
be this way, just like a couple more years and
then like a year goes by, and then another year
goes by, and like things never change. But he would
always talk about like us settling down and things like that,
and then it just wasn't happening, and then it got
to a point where I didn't even want it to happen.
(17:35):
So I was always very clear that I didn't like
the multiple relationship thing.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
But it fell on deaf ears.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, I mean, I mean he definitely heard me. I
just don't think he gave a shit.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
That's even worse. I mean for me, this is where
it gets good.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Though.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
You had one of the biggest I choose me moments
you left the mansion and in two thousand and eight,
do you remember when you made that final decision to leave?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I do, And it was kind of something that happened
gradually we were doing the show, which was a huge success,
and that, you know, I feel like helped my self
esteem a little bit because the show wanted to follow
us doing different things, so it gave us an excuse
because like we had a curfew. We weren't allowed to travel,
we weren't allowed to do anything once we entered into
that relationship. But with the show, we could actually go
(18:26):
film somewhere and because the cameras were with us, he'd
let us all stay a night somewhere or something like that.
And then I started working at the Playboy Studio. I
was producing and directing all the Playmate of the Month features,
and I loved that job. It was an amazing job,
like working with everybody there, working with the different women,
and I felt like that did so much for my
self esteem. And I started to feel because I almost
(18:47):
once I moved to the mansion, I felt kind of
like crippled before for lack of a better world. I
felt like, if I leave here, I'm not going to
be able to survive in the real world, which sounds
so strange, but it was just the mindset I was
locked in. But once I was like doing a career
and loving it, and you know and I were still
like talking about the future, and we actually like were
(19:08):
trying to have a baby. We were like doing in
vitro and everything, but it wasn't working. And when I
realized it wasn't working, I was like, well, I don't
know if I can stay here, you know, because I
always knew I wanted to be a mom, that was
just something that was, you know, a non negotiable for me.
So that was kind of the first realization I had
that I really wanted to leave. And then things just
(19:30):
started to get more and more tense between HEF and I.
I don't know what was going on with him at
that time. I almost look back at it now, and
you know, I've described on my podcast and things like that,
and a lot of people will chime in, like in
the comments on our YouTube or on our Patreon or
wherever we communicate with people and say that the way
he was behaving almost sounds like the first signs of dementia,
(19:51):
because I guess sometimes people can get really mean, and
not that he'd never been mean before. We'd certainly had
a lot of issues up to that point, but in
the very end, he started getting really mean, kind of
out of nowhere over so many things, and I didn't
know what that was at the time, and I was
just like, I can't do this, I can't handle it,
and I was I had already broke it off with
(20:11):
him and leaving in things, but I was still staying
in a different room with the mansion to kind of
finish filming the season five of the show, and we
were called back to do commentary for the last DVD
and Kendra was telling the story in front of the
producer about how, you know, we had been watching a
movie in a room and you know, have followed her
(20:32):
down to her room and said, well, why didn't you
sit next to me here? And she goes, oh, I
didn't want to, like move Holly out of the way.
And he started like stopping his feet and saying he
liked the drama and stuff. And that's kind of when
everything came together in my head and I realized he's
been orchestrating this drama and encouraging it the whole time,
which was incredibly hurtful to me because he knew how
much I hated all the fighting with the other girls
(20:53):
and how long it had been going on. So that
was definitely like the last straw and kind of like
made me lose any feelings spar him and just like
cemented my decision to move on.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah, once you see somebody for who they truly.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Are, Yeah, you can't unless see it.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
And Yeah, you've opened up in the past about the
fact that you and he attempted IVF were together. Do
you think, looking back now as a mom that you are,
do you think that not working out was a blessing?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
One hundred percent? I can't even imagine it. It seems
so strange. The want to have kids was old, but
it was just the mindset I was in. It's like,
once I entered into that place, something happened to me
where I felt like, I need to make this work
or nothing else, and there's nothing else out there for me.
And you know, I could point to a number of
reasons why I think that is, but you know, long
(21:48):
story short, that was the mindset I was in. And
I'm just so glad everything worked out the way it
had because I had the best years of my life
after I left the mansion and the best you know,
career moments and the family moments and everything. So it's
just a really good example of how sometimes what you
think you want the universe has better.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Plans for you. Yes, I love when that happens. You
feel so divinely like supported somehow. Yeah, but you don't
feel that in the moment for sure.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I mean, just think about how hard it probably would
have been for you to leave him if you had
a child with him.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Oh yeah, it would have been impossible.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It would have been a whole different life for you.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Oh my gosh, I'm so happy that didn't wasn't successful.
Oh my goodness. Okay, So, yeah, we've both been through
breakups and divorces, and I know you're newly single, and
I know for me, each of those you know, big
life changing sort of obstacles turned out to be learning
(22:53):
opportunities for me. And even if I, you know, didn't
see them that way in the moment, I started to
recogniz my part in the reoccurring problems, my patterns that
are serving me. Have you had some of those sort
of revelations along your way.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
To Yeah, absolutely, And I think a lot of it
has a lot of like subconscious emotional unavailability, like picking
people that I know aren't going to be that available
because secretly I don't want to be that available, even
though I really think I do. It's a really layered thing.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, why do you think in secretly or like deep
inside you you don't want to be available?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I have no idea. It's so weird to think because
I don't think that's what I want, you know, But
my choices keep telling me that I'm picking people. Either
that or I just really like a challenge for no
good reason. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
When's your birthday?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
December twenty third. I'm a Capricorn.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Capricorn those are very strong ladies. Maybe it is the
challenge thing.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
So Capricorns always have to do things the hard way.
That's one thing I've noticed. We're very hard workers, but
we never take the easy route. It always has to
be the hardest one we pick for whatever reason.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Oh my gosh, I think, can I ask how old
you are?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Forty six?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Forty six? Okay, so you're going to be fifty soon,
you're going to be joining the club. I felt like
for me, after fifty, I realized so much about like
what a big, huge part my childhood and my past
played into why I was behaving the way I was
for so many years, and why I just kept repeating
it even though it didn't work, and yeah, like I
(24:33):
didn't understand why I kept going back to that empty.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Well, yeah, it's so weird.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
It's so weird, and you don't have sort of the
tools or the understanding on how what your life could
be like if you were to do things differently.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
One hundred percent. But also, like the catch twenty two
of it all is I really think all those bad
relationships we went through, like we had to learn something
from that too. It was never really a waste of time.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
What do you think that the biggest thing you learned
about your last relationship was for yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
My last relationship, it was interesting because I was dating
this guy for six years, the last six years, and
it was during the time that I got diagnosed like
late diagnosed autistic, and he was somebody like we had
a lot of issues in our relationship, but one thing
I really liked about him was he very much accepted
me for how I was as far as like being
an introvert or not being that good with people socially.
(25:32):
A lot of people when they meet me, they I
seem very disengaged and they think I'm stuck up or
they think I'm being rude, and I'd had issues in
relationships with that before, where guys you know, really didn't
like that because they didn't think I was like a
business asset because I would go to a dinner with
them and They're trying to talk to somebody and I'm
not engaging the wife as much as I should be
(25:52):
or something, you know what I mean. So it turned
into like a big problem. They didn't like that. So
I was dating this guy who totally accepted me for
how I was, and I think that gave me the
space to kind of look into why I am the
way I am. And he was kind of similar in
a lot of ways. So it's weird that you would
spend six years with somebody and that would be the reason.
(26:14):
But it's kind of like my takeaway from that. Of
course I didn't know it at the time, but I'm like,
he was kind of the perfect person for what I
was going through and what I was learning about myself.
And also he was so introverted and so like, never
wanted to go out and do anything, but I so
fully got to indulge that side of my personality that
I don't want to indulge it as much anymore. So
(26:35):
now I feel now that I've learned what I've learned
about myself, I feel like I'm so much better equipped
to go out and actually work on my social skills
and network and do the things I need to do. Right.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, because you have to put yourself out there as
a single woman, a single mom. You've got to, you know,
keep pushing.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Forward one hundred percent. And for business, especially in the
entertainment industry, Like, I'm shocked I'm even working because I
never I never networked at all for like the longest time.
Like I went through this phase where I was like,
I'm not leaving the house, you know, back like twelve
years ago when I had kids. So I'm shocked I'm
even doing things now. But you know now, I don't
feel that way, and it's not the way I want
to operate.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
So remember in the beginning of the conversation, I told
you there's probably a lot of similarities in us. I'm
seeing them left and right.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Oh that's so close.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I'm an introvert as well, and I never networked, and
I've often thought like, oh my gosh. You know, they
say you have to be relevant or whatever to keep working.
I'm not relevant. But there's something that has kept me
pushing forward so that I can pay my bills, so
that I can take care of family. That thing. It's
(27:41):
like that's survival instinct, you know, and you know better
than anybody that you're on.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Your own kid totally.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I'm quoting a Taylor Swift song there, So I love it. Yeah,
that's so it's really very interesting, and I would imagine,
like what a what an impact in really great ways
but also in really like not so great ways that
time there, in that life, that life where you were
(28:13):
living that you stumbled into. What the effects of that
were for you for long term and just your sense
of self, your sense of you know, being able to
feel independent and grounded. It had to have had such
a profound effect on you.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, it's weird, and it's really layered. Like I can't
even point to one thing and be like, oh, I
had arrested development because I lived in this bubble. It's
like it's that, but it's so many other things too. Also,
when I exited the relationship, I just kind of wanted
to look back on it positively even though there was
a lot of negative and just like put a bow
on it and always talk about it like it was great.
But that didn't work for me because it wasn't truthful
(28:53):
and it wasn't just me looking at my experience and
what did I experience and how was it. It's also
dealing with like the world's opinion of what my experience
was and what it should have been. There was a
lot of that to work through too, so interesting.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Like do you feel like what the world thought and
wanted got interrupted? It sort of interrupted what you thought
and what you wanted.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Well on the first difficulty I had with it, I
felt was after I left the Mansion. You know, I
was on my own doing my own thing, and every
day somebody would come up to me in real life,
whether I was doing a meet and greet after my
show or I was just at the local Starbucks or something,
and they'd be somebody who was probably a fan of
the show, and they'd be excited to ask, Oh, how's
(29:42):
hell or do you miss the mansion? Or oh, I mean,
how is everybody? And you know, I hadn't had a
great time there, hence me deciding to leave, but I
didn't want to disappoint anybody, so as I was like, oh,
everybody's great, even though I'm thinking of my head, like
I haven't spoken to that man in years, and every
chance he gets he makes a low key snarky comment
about me and the media. But I felt this weird
(30:03):
responsibility to like still be the cheerleader and still make
everything sound like it was great, and it was really
creating like a pit in my stomach because you know,
sometimes people will look at me and be like, oh, well,
you know you're doing a podcast about the show or
you wrote a book about this, like why are you
still talking about it? And to them that might seem,
you know, out of pocket that I'm still talking about it,
(30:24):
but to me, like they have to understand every single
day of my life, I see somebody in the wild
who like wants answers or think they know what was
going on and stuff, and I think, yeah, I think
a lot of people really like bought in to have
some of my relationship and were invested in it and
wanted us to settle down, and we're disappointed when that
didn't happen. But it was a very polarizing relationship and
(30:48):
even though the show was beloved, it was also very polarizing.
Like I guess, a really simplified way to look at
it is back then. It's like, if you wanted to
put it in political terms, like conservatives didn't like us
because we were like naked sluts, and then liberals didn't
like us because they thought we weren't feminists. So it's
like you're kind of getting hate from all sides and people,
I don't know. There were people that loved the show
(31:09):
and were mad that I left and the relationship didn't
work out, And then there were people who just kind
of knew something was wrong, but you know, beneath the surface.
So it was to navigate.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, so layered mm hmm. And I
too can relate with that, because when you are a
part of something that is so iconic, so looked at
from other people's perspective as being this amazing, incredible thing,
either wanting it or hating it, it gets it twists
(31:44):
things like for yourself.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, it has more of an effect than people would think.
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah, yeah, dating for anyone really, not just a single mom.
It's really not for the faint of heart. These days,
I've been there. Do you think you're gonna be ready
to date again?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I'm kind of like, I can't picture myself like dating,
so to speak, I'm like a long term relationship girl,
Like if it's like a long term relationship or nothing like.
I'm kind of at the point in my life where
I'm so busy with stuff that I'm like, either it's
the one or nothing, Like, I'm not interested in the
guy who's kind of hot or he's fun to sleep with,
or I'm going to date this guy here, and I'm
not interested in that capacity. What I like to find
(32:24):
love again, yes, But even like with my last relationship,
which is the only guy I dated since my divorce,
it was just hard because you know, I don't want
to introduce my kids to somebody unless I'm engaged, and
then I'm very busy with work. I'm very busy with
co parenting, So trying to find a slot in my
life to see a guy, even though I ended up
being with him for six years and it was quite
(32:45):
a serious relationship, from my perspective, it's just it's exhausting,
Like I don't have enough time in the day.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
You know, it takes a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Mm hmmm. So if it's not the one, I don't
have time for it.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And you've reached the age and you are independent, you're
a self made woman, like you're you're having such success now.
I think it just puts things into perspective one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I just don't have time for it. Like I already
have kids, I already have my dream wedding. I don't
have these kind of goals I need to check off,
Like I just want the love of my life, you know,
I don't want to waste my time with anything less.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, you'll know, we kind of talked about this earlier,
how you had that example of love growing up and
still do with your parents. Do you think that you
have had that in your own relationships yet?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
No, or I'd still be with that person.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's hard. You know, you want to
live up to what your parents had or what you
saw as a kid, and any and anything that falls
short of that kind of feels like a failure.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Almost totally one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
So you and your girls next door co star bridget
how to rewatch podcasts? Like you mentioned, I have a
nine or two and oh rewatch podcast with my co
star Toy. Yes, and sometimes it's almost tortuous to oh
watch yourself.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Right, it's so all over the place. There's like the
really torturous cringe moments, but the moments I feel like
I need to apologize for because I feel like it
came off sounding mean about somebody when I didn't mean it.
And then there's and then sometimes, you know, I will
say about my rewatch podcast because I had written a
book about my experience at the Mansion, which was very
much talking about the negative because I felt like that
(34:40):
was the side nobody had seen through Girls next Door.
But I feel like during the rewatch podcast it allows
me more to reclaim like the good times as well,
like oh, that road trip we did with just the
girls was really fun, or you know, these buffet and
movie nights were really fun. So that's the positive side
of it from my perspective. But yeah, there's a lot
of cringe too, and a lot of stuff that, you know,
(35:02):
we have to point out, like that was totally fake
and that wasn't the way things really went down.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, for sure, when I'm watching myself back and I
see that younger me on the on the screen the TV,
I've always like, Wow, look what you did, Look what
you survived. You know, I can I know what was
going on in your real life during this time for
you know in this season of the show, and look,
look how how far you've come, do you? I mean,
(35:29):
I do can't imagine what it must be like for
you to have to rewatch something that was actually the
reality of you being in a relationship that caused you trauma,
like going, do you go back to those feelings?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, I mean I've worked through a lot of them
just from like writing my book and stuff, so it's
not completely fresh, but it's hard sometimes, like I will
watch things that will piss me off all over again
or me upset.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I mean at the end of the day, I'm glad
to be out of it, so that's a positive.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah. And at the end of the day, it was
a stepping stone for where you are right now with
your two beautiful children.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Totally, and it was, you know, even taking in the
negative parts into consideration, like I never wanted an ordinary life,
and then that's what I got.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
You got an unordinary life. Girl. I'm proud of you.
Oh my gosh. Yes, you have a twelve year old
daughter and a nine year old son. Their names are incredible,
Rainbow and Forest, two of my favorite things. Thank you
love that you named them that it seems like kids
are getting on the internet now and growing up so fast,
and you know, how do you feel about that with
(36:39):
your kids? Like do you are you do you control
their access to things that they're seeing on the internet
or are you able to?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
We do we? Me and their dad were both very
strict about it. They don't have phones, they do have iPads.
They're limited to an hour a day.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
My daughter loves my gosh, you are you are amazing
because I that I wanted to do that, and I
never like made it happen, like I was too weak.
I gave in.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And know it's hard because she all she wants to do.
You know, she's obviously has other hobbies and things we
make her do, but all she wants to do is
be on the iPad with her friends. Yeah, it's a
lot of fights, but you know, we keep it strict.
Sometimes they'll get a road trip where they can take
their iPad in the car, but then Wi Fi doesn't
work the whole time either, So yeah, they only get
(37:27):
like an hour of iPad time. And they like to
watch things like we'll let them watch shorts on YouTube,
like on the big TV in the family room, you know,
on the kid only channel. So they like that. So
and sometimes something I'll come through that's a little bit inappropriate,
but I always you know, pointed out and we laugh
about it, and I think, I think things are pretty
(37:47):
good so far.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, Yeah, twelve, we're so good. Twelve is where it
starts to get even more challenging because they want to
do all the things that their friends are doing. Yeah,
and then you're like, it's hard to stay strong and
be the mean mom that doesn't let them do what
everybody else is doing.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Totally one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, do your kids want to be in the industry
at all?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Do they do they have any interest in entertainment of
any kind?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Sometimes my daughter asks about it and I have to
tell her, like, I don't think it's fun like you
think it is. Like you have to get up really early,
which you have to sit in a makeup chair for
like hours, you know, you have to do a lot
of reading, and I don't think it's as fun as
you think it is.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yeah, I know, but I tell her.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
You know, when you're eighteen, you can do what you want.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
But you do what you want. You are just so beautiful,
so are you?
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Oh God, are you kidding? You're like the idol of
my teenage years. You're like the beautiful woman.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
How I know how I have felt about it, But
how have you felt when it comes to aging in
the public eye. Do you ever feel like pressure? Because
then I can really you were captured on film and
you know, you were in Playboy and you are frozen
in people's memories in a certain way. Do you do
you feel that pressure? Does that weigh on you or
(39:10):
how do you get around that?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
I part of me has a sense of humor about
it because I was being told I was too old
from the day I set foot in la or not
too old, but like you're gonna be too old because
I'd be like waitressing, and you know, there'd be like
two older men at a table trying to act like
they're in the industry when they're really not, which is
such a common thing in La. Oh, they're like asking
(39:32):
me what I'm trying to do, and how old are you? Oh,
I'm nineteen. Well you're better hurry up and make you're it.
You're almost over the hill. So it's like I almost
have a sense of humor about it now because like
I'm forty six, and it's like if somebody wants to
tell me I'm old today. Cool because they were telling
me that when I was nineteen. Like, it's just it
means nothing to me now. Although but I do, you know,
I do care about how I look, and I do
(39:54):
Looking a certain way is fun for me. It's a hobby,
I like, you know, especially for making content online doing
my TV shows, I want to look a certain way,
like I'm in true crime now, and true crime lighting
is brutal. Going into season two of my true crime shows,
I was like, you guys, I'm gonna need a little
bit more lighting, Like I can't do the true crime
(40:14):
lighting anymore. So they were kind and they gave me
an extra light. But yeah, I mean, I get some
dysmorphia and stuff. I think the time I felt worst
about it was after I'd had my son, which is
my second kid. It was twenty I had him in
twenty sixteen, and this was around the time when social
media had been around for a minute, but everybody was
(40:35):
really getting online and really doing the front facing camera
stuff and selfies were the thing. And like, if I
scroll back on my camera roll to twenty sixteen, I
just see reams of me trying to take a picture
of my own face for whatever reason, and never liking
it because you know, when you're pregnant, you know, you
gain weight and things swell up, and your face even
kind of changes and things around a little bit. And
(40:57):
I just remember that feeling comes back when I see
those pictures, and the feeling of not recognizing who I
was anymore and feeling just so out of touch and
out of out of it. And you know, the postpartum
and the pregnancy hormones don't help with that, and it
was just such a sad, depressing feeling like I felt
(41:19):
like I wasn't myself anymore. And you know, I'm over
that now and I'm back and I've learned a contour
and I'm happy with the face again. But yeah, it's
a real thing. It happens, and it's just interesting how
it can really sometimes affect your sense of who you are,
even though like we all know deep down that we're
not you know, who ares people is not what we
look like. But when I was trying to learn a
(41:40):
flattering selfie angle, it was rough.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I have so many of those bursts on my phone too,
where you're like, I don't like it, Like I've got it, yeah,
and then if someone by chance picks up your phone
and looks at your camera, world, it's so embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Totally, and it's like the iPhone front facing camera is
no one's friend, and it's sad and it doesn't match
what we see in the mirror, and I hate it.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
That's so true. You talked before, and you've been really
open about your diagnosis with autism. Do you think that
having that diagnosis or being having that awareness has impacted
your romantic relationships at all.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Well, I just broke it off with the guy I
was with when I found out I was on the spectrum,
and he was always, you know, great with talking to
me about it and being very understanding and things like that.
So he was a great person to be with for that.
I think it will make you know the next person
I'm with, I think it'll make it easier because I
think I'm better at communicating, making eye contact, you know,
(42:42):
understanding how I come across when I was so clueless
about it before. Yeah, hopefully that will be a positive.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
I think that that awareness that it gives you sort
of a relief and then opening to be more gracious
with yourself, you know, and allow yourself like to be
a little bit more kinder to yourself. Yeah, you're dealing
with something of that other people don't have to deal with.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, And I think when other people know that about
me too, maybe they won't take it so personally when
they catch me like zoning out or some some weird
thing that I do. Where before it was like, oh
my god, this bitch hates me and she's being so judgy.
Why is she?
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I think that you are such a survivor. Thanks, And
I wonder what made you go into the true crime area.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Growing up, I always loved things like unsolved mysteries. I
always loved stuff that was a little bit creepy and
a little bit mysterious, even my fascination with like old Hollywood,
like I grew up obsessed with Marilyn Monroe, Like I
always loved the stories that kind of had a hint
of tragedy to them. For some reason, I was always
really drawn to those, and I never thought about getting
into true crime on my own, like I was always
(44:02):
a consumer of it, different podcasts I love listening to
and things like that. But my agent came to me
with the idea for Playboy Murders that the production company
had come to him with He's like, you know, if
you want to do this, the network wants to greenlight it.
And at first I was like no, because I didn't
want to do another Playboy branded thing. I was like,
I can't. I've reached my limit no more. But then
(44:22):
he's like, let me just send you the deck and
you know, let me know what you think. So he
sent me the deck and it was a lot of
cases I'd never heard of. They were all so different,
they were all so interesting, and I was like, no, wait,
this is a show I would actually watch. So that's
when I knew I wanted to be involved. And it's
just been such a rewarding, interesting process to be a
part of and I love doing it and I hope
(44:44):
we can do them more.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really intrigued by it too. I
watched a little bit of it and I didn't know
about these cases, And so are all the cases on
the show about people in that world the play mates
play pla Boy world.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, in those cases, there's always somebody in each case,
whether it's the victim or the perpetrator, or somebody who
witnessed something in a major way. Was a part of
the Playboy world, whether they worked for the magazine or
were a bunny at one of the clubs, or we're
a playmate. So you know, a lot of my purpose
in the show as a talking hat is to give
a lot of background on what that world is like
(45:22):
and what the jobs were like and the history of
it and things like that. And each story is so
incredibly different. And we're on our third season now. I
can't even believe we've found this many cases. But when
you think about, you know, how long Playboy has been
in business, and how many Playboy clubs there were across
the country, and how many people worked for the company,
I guess it makes sense. So yeah, season three, you're.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Going into season three mm hmm, that's so great. I'm
really happy for you. I'm glad you said yes to
it because it sounds like it's not it's not putting
you back where you don't want to be. It's putting
you into a place now where you're serving a different role.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah. I love telling the stories. I love and with
my other true crime show, Lethally Blonde, a lot of
the stories, not all of them, but a lot of
the stories focus on people who are involved in sex work.
So I like to tell a broader story about the
person rather than oh they were a dancer, or oh
you know they were you know, working, you know, just
(46:20):
doing escorting or whatever. People tend to get brushed off
that way. So I like to look into who was
this person and what else? Like if I were that person,
what would I want people to know about me? What
else about? Paint a broader picture of what was going
on in their lives? Except so many people get written off,
and you know, so many people are targeted. Perpetrators will
often look for sex workers because they think those are
(46:40):
the people who are on the fringes of society, and
those are the people that won't be looked for, so
they think they'll have more of a chance of getting
away with it.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
That's so sad. It's so sick. Do you feel like
exposing to yourself to all of that impacts you in
a negative way at all?
Speaker 2 (47:00):
I don't think so. I think I focus so much
on trying to get to know as best I can.
Obviously from the distance I'm at who I think that
person was and what else is going on in their life.
It's sad, of course, but I feel good trying to
tell their story in a dignified way. And one thing
(47:22):
that's really special to me about season three of the
Playboy Murders and season two of Lethally Blonde, which will
come out after this, is there are so many family
members of the victims who wanted to come forward and
share their stories. We didn't have that in the beginning,
you know, we would always reach out to the families
every single case. But I think because we have seasons,
(47:42):
you know, living on Max now that people can go
watch and see what kind of a show this is
and how we tell the stories, people want to be there.
And it's horrible that the stories have to be told
in the first place. But if you have to tell
the story, I think the best person or the best
people to get the last word are the loved ones
of the who are lost.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Yeah. I mean, I don't think a lot of people
know about the dark history of Playboy. Did you know
about it when you entered into that world, when you
lived there?
Speaker 2 (48:08):
Yeah, a little bit. I mean I learned about it
as I was there. Hef was a really big scrap booker.
He had two thousand volumes of scrap book on his life,
and he would save anything that was written about him
whether it was positive or negative. So over the years
I would come across things like maybe a book that
was written about him in the seventies that had a
lot of negative things in there that I almost didn't
want to believe, just because this was the person that
(48:30):
I loved and cared about. So I would, you know,
make excuses in my head like, oh, well, this can't
be true, or you.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Know, yeah, but it was. Yeah, that's wild. What a
life you've lived, fascinating, interesting, and.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
You're not you're altomster.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah yeah, who. I'm sure who expected it. But to
see you succeeding and pulling away from it and surviving
that trauma and thriving is really inspirational.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
And to see you as an example to other women
to be able to stand up for yourself and risk
losing it all in order to survive in order to
take better care of yourself is really really inspiring.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Thank you. Yeah, you have to follow your gut when
you know it's time to go, it's time to go,
for sure. There were no guarantees. You know, we'd been
on a hit TV show for a while, but you know,
we'd been in this playboy bubble where nobody could really
reach us as far as other opportunities, like, I didn't
think I would have anything waiting for me. On the
other side, I had like a tiny bit of money
I saved up, and all I knew was I couldn't
(49:41):
do this anymore.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Where did you go when you moved out?
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Well, I moved down the hall at first because I
had to fish doing some scenes for season five, so
I had a little bit of time to kind of
get myself together. And I immediately started dating a guy
who was real bad news, and that did pretty quickly.
But I had put money down on an investment property
that I had wanted to rent out, and I had
crashed there for a while and then almost I would
(50:09):
say like four months after I moved out, fully, I
broke up with that bad relationship. And I had been
wanting to do Dancing with the Stars so bad, and
I kept like auditioning and trying out and they kept saying, no,
you know, I don't think it's going to work like
you're you're dating this eighty year old man. I don't
think Middle America is going to accept you. But they
finally took me on because one of the contestants got
(50:31):
injured right before the season started, and they needed somebody
last minute. So they're like, who wants to do this
so bad that they're going to step in last minute
without all the rehearsal everybody else has had. Oh my god,
it's me, It's me, It's me. Yeah, And I'd so
much fun and it was such an amazing couple of months.
And during that time, I also like one of my
goals was I was a really big fan of Deeda
(50:53):
Anties and The Crazy Horse and Paris and things like that,
and I really wanted to do something in burlesque just
for fun. Like my original idea was I was going
to do it as like a plotline for Girls next Door,
like kind of a one and done just for fun.
But then I kind of got this in my idea
after talking to a few people, No, I'd really like
to do something in Vegas at one of the places
on the Strip. And they happened to have a new
(51:15):
show that was opening that was a thirty million dollar budget,
you know, from Broadway directors, this burlesque show coming in
and they were looking for somebody for that, and I
was auditioning for it while I was doing dancing with
the stars, and I ended up getting that, and it
was just like everything kind of fell into place, like
everything I wanted. It was like the ultimate, you know,
domino effect of manifestation. But I could never predicted that.
(51:37):
Like when I decided to leave the mansion, I was like,
I don't know what I'm going to do, Like I
can't afford an assistant anymore, Like all I have to
you know, I have time to just do my own errands,
like I really didn't know, Like I have this list
of things I wanted to do, but they all seemed
like such long shots, but they really fell into place.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
That's the thing. When one door closes and you let
that other door open, it's logical things happen.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, it's so scary. It's like the whole jump and
the net will appear thing. And I'm still at forty
six years old. I'm not used to it. But I
know it's a thing, and I know it's true, and
I know it's what I have to keep doing.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Yeah, I keep pushing for that. That's so amazing. Well,
before I let you go, Hollie Madison, what was your
last I choose me moment?
Speaker 2 (52:22):
This is just so simple and silly but I just
have to choose to enjoy life because I'm really achievement oriented,
and I tend to throughout my life go through different
phases of like having anxiety of not having achieved enough,
or I'm not on track or I haven't done this yet.
And every day like I'm looking at it right now
because I'm sitting in front of my window, like I
(52:43):
love my backyard. It's so pretty, and every day almost
I take a picture of it and I post up
my Instagram story and I'm like, it's a perfect day.
And I just remind myself to like choose to love
life every day because you could have the most amazing life,
which I feel like I do, and still fall into
this weird where you feel like you don't have enough,
you're not achieving enough, and no, no, you just have
(53:04):
to choose to love life. So that's mine. I choose
me moment that is a perfect one.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Thank you so much for coming and being with us today.
I have loved talking to you and getting to know
you a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Thank you. I'm such a huge fan. It was such
a privilege to talk to you and this was so nice.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
I'll be rooting for you, thank you, where you go,
thanky so much, have a good one.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Bye bye.
You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth. Hi, everyone,
welcome to I Choose Me. This podcast is all about
the choices we make and where they lead us. On
this podcast, I want to talk to people that exemplify
strength and bravery. Being courageous and standing up for yourself
(00:26):
can be one of the hardest things you can do.
My guest today is incredibly strong and brave. You know
her from being Hugh Hefner's number one girlfriend, which was
captured on the wildly successful reality show The Girl's Next Door,
and her books Down the Rabbit Hole and The Vegas Diaries.
(00:47):
She co hosts the podcast Girls Next Level, and you
can catch the new season of her show The Playboy
Murders on ID and streaming on Max. May fifth, Please
welcome Holly Madison to the podcast. Hello beautiful, so nice
to meet you you too.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm such a huge fan. I love nine oh two
one oh so much.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Oh gosh, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Well.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I'm really happy to talk to you today because even
though our journeys have been very different, we are both
independent women and there are most likely a lot of
similarities between us. Then, yeah, a lot of people welcomed
you into their homes when you are on the Girls
next Door reality show, And I cannot even believe that
(01:29):
it has been twenty years since that show.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, it's so crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, does that seem like a totally different lifetime for you?
Speaker 2 (01:37):
One hundred percent it does. It's so weird, Like, I
can't believe it's been twenty years since it debuted now,
And you know, Bridget and I have a podcast where
we rewatch and we talk about the show a little bit,
and it's just crazy just how much just culture has
changed too, and little things like I'm sure when you
watch your show too, you notice things that you're like,
we even did that back then, right.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
Yeah, there's certain things that went down that you could
never do now on a TV show totally. I'm sure
you see that with your show.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
One hundred percent. We'll be watching scenes and I'm like,
I don't think you could do a scene like this, because,
especially for reality TV in the two thousands, it was
really just kind of showing a person's lifestyle. You didn't
have to have that much plot or drama. So sometimes
I'll be watching it and I'm like, this is cute
and all, but I don't think you could do this now,
because like, nothing's really happening in the scene.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Right, where's the plot?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So what's coxactly?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Before we get into life at the mansion, I want
to find out about your upbringing. What did you want
to be when you were growing up.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I think the first thing I wanted to be when
I was super super little and didn't really know what
that meant was I wanted to be Alice in Wonderland.
I thought you could pick a character and be that.
But once I knew what a job was, I kind
of was all over the place, Like I wanted to
be a writer. I wanted to be in the entertainment industry.
I didn't really know. I just kind of wanted to
get out there and do something. And as I got older,
(03:02):
I was in college, I transferred down to Loyal La
Mary Mount in LA, and I knew I wanted to
be in the entertainment industry in some capacity, but I
didn't really know what.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
But you had entertainment industry on your mind, Like did
you want to be famous?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I did for some reason, and I think it's because
I always had a hard time like relating to people
and like bonding to other people, and I had this weird,
immature idea that if you were famous and people felt
connected to you in that parasocial way, that was like
a shortcut to connecting with people. And you know, spoiler alert,
it's not. But I think that was kind of what
I was thinking deep down. And I was a double
(03:40):
major in theater in psychology, and I'd always you know,
loved like the women of Playboy, like Pamela Anderson and
Anna Nicole, and I always kind of knew my journey
was probably going to start there and that was maybe
going to be my foot in the door, and I
didn't know it would turn into such like a bigger
thing than I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
You know, it seems so familiar that what you're saying,
because it was the same way for me with Beverly
Hills Nina Twoina. I had no idea that that would
lead me to the life that I've gotten to live.
And I wondered at the same time, like, do you
get tired of talking about the past or you know
kind of where you started? Because for me, I have
(04:20):
I can see how people would say, oh, I want
to be known for something else, or I wish I
could shake that, but I can't and that's the fact,
And so I have embraced it to the point where
I love talking about it because it got me everything
that I have Now, I wouldn't be you who I
am totally.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Yeah, I went through a phase where I wanted nothing
to do with it. This was maybe like I left
the Mansion and Girls next Door. I'd done my own
spin off show for a couple of years, and right
after that, I was like, I just want to go
a completely different direction. I don't want to be associated
with Playboy or have anybody remember that at all. But
that's like such a losing game, like nobody's ever going
(04:57):
to So I learned pretty quickly that that's like like
the fight you can't win. And also because the reality
show is presenting me as myself and people thought they
were seeing my real life, but there was a lot
about it that was manipulated. I never kind of run
out of moments where I want to set the record straight.
So I really don't be sick of talking about it
(05:18):
because of that. I'm curious, because I'm such a huge
nine h two one zero fan. When you first got
that role, did you know it was going to be
a show that lasted or did you think, oh, this
is just going to be my first thing on the
way to something else.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
I didn't even think it through at all. I was
just so excited to get the opportunity, and you know,
see what happened. And I don't think any of us
knew or expected or thought that it would turn into
what it turned into, something that we're all still interested
in all these years later. It's crazy, it's so cool,
but it's really cool. I know. Yeah, so when for
(05:51):
a lot of us, the first example we have of
love is our parents. What kind of relationship did you
see your parents having?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
My parents are still together, they're still married, so they
had a great relationship. But one thing I noticed, it's interesting.
I never saw them fight once growing up, and I've
never talked to them about this, but I have to
assume they made a decision like we're not going to
fight in front of the kids. They're not going to
see any of that, which is incredibly admirable. But also
I grew up with no conflict resolution skills whatever, because
(06:24):
I never saw it play out. So I'm kind of
the one where for the longest time in relationships, if
even like a little thing flared up. I'm like, okay,
well we're breaking up. Well it's done, you know, yeah,
that's over. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
No, that's really really interesting. And how did you learn
how to do conflict? You know, didn't see it.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I feel like a lot of my interpersonal skills I've
only really recently developed, like within the past five years.
Like I was late diagnosed on the spectrum. So now
I understand a lot more how I work and how
I've perceived things differently over the years than maybe anybody
else would. So I feel like really only learning to
(07:05):
communicate effectively. That's been a very recent journey for me.
Like I was operating as an adult for decades without
knowing how to do it, and you know, I would
have falling outs with friends every once in a while
that would turn to like never speaking again, or you know,
relationships would end at the first fight because I just
didn't know how to do conflict at all.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, it's scary. Yeah, the communication is key. And I
too felt like I was I lost about ten years
of very important developmental, you know, normal human time by
being on a show that was like, you know, so popular,
and being working so hard for ten years on that show.
(07:49):
I feel like I missed a lot of social things.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Yeah, that's so interesting to hear because I feel the
exact same way. Of course, my situation was a little
bit different, so I was kind of living in this bubble.
But I'm sure you were so busy you're living in
a different bubble. Yeah, But I feel like my twenties,
I wasn't dating like a normal person. I wasn't, you know,
I had this, you know, career being on a reality show,
but I wasn't going out and making a career the
(08:15):
way a normal twenty something would. So for the longest time,
you know, after I left the Mansion, when I was
in my thirties, a lot of my friends would be
about ten years younger than me, because that's what I
could relate to, had this solid chunk of like arrested development.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Yes, arrested development. Yep, absolutely, I can so relate. Okay,
so you moved to Los Angeles, you're in college, and
you're pursuing a career in entertainment. How does getting invited
to the Mansion come about?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
That happened because I was working for Hawaiian Tropic and
at one of the events, Hugh Hefner's doctor came and
he was like, Oh, I want to invite all these
girls to the next Playboy Mansion party. And I was
so excited because back then, this was the year two
thousand and back then those were like the cool parties
to go to in town that were like really exclusive,
and I'd heard girls I knew talk about going, but
(09:03):
I didn't know very many who were invited. So I
was so excited to go. And like I said, I
was a fan of like some of the women who'd
come from Playboy, So I was so excited to go
to my first party. I didn't even stay that late
that night, it was weird. I just stayed for a
couple hours kind of toward the place, and like went
home and thought it was like the best night ever.
And then I got invited to their pool parties, which
(09:23):
were much smaller affairs, and you know, hef was at
all of those. So I got to know him and
his girlfriends a little bit, not very well, not as
well as I should have got to know him before
making some decisions I was about to make. But you know,
I thought I had a good rapport with them, so
and then I moved in after a year later, after
(09:45):
you know, being invited to my first party, and I'd
been in college and I was kind of trying to
do too much. I was a double major. I was
on scholarship, so I had to keep my grades up
to a certain amount to keep that, and I had
to work full time just to pay for like my
other bills and things like that, or as close to
full time as I could fit in. And then I
(10:06):
was also trying to audition and stuff, and it was
just trying to do too many things, so I ended
up failing at all of them. And I got to
a point where I was living with two other people
and they're like, at the last minute, I thought we
were going to resign our lease and they were like,
we're not, you know, going to resign this. We're like
going back home. So I was like, holy shit, I'm
not going to have anywhere to live. And I'd been
invited out with Helfen the girls before, and I'd always
(10:27):
said no just because I saw their whole like multiple
girlfriend relationship and thought that looked a little too much
for me. But because I had nowhere to live, I
was like, you know what, maybe I will go out
with them. Because I was at the pool party, like
right when this dilemma was going down, and one of
the butler's was like, you know, one of the girls
just got kicked out. There's like an open room here,
and I'm like, you know what, maybe I will give
(10:47):
this a try. And it turned into you know, the
next seven crazy years of my life.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, was there anybody in your life that was telling
you not to move in?
Speaker 2 (10:57):
There probably would have been if I had told people,
But I didn't tell.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Anyone, and you didn't want to hear their opinion.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
No, you know, I knew this was a very snap decision.
I knew it would be a controversial decision. I just thought,
you know what, I'm going to look back on this,
and this is going to be that crazy thing I
did in college. I didn't know it was going to
turn into a seven year long thing. And even my
family they didn't really know what was going on. For
years and years. I always kept every Everything I told
them was very pg because I was just in the
(11:26):
thick of it and in over my head and trying
to figure it out for myself. And I knew what
everybody would say, but I also knew they probably wouldn't
have any advice that would work for me. In the moment.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, I found that I did that too. I didn't
tell my family all of the details.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah, sometimes when you're that age, you just kind of
want to figure it out for yourself. It's weird.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Do you think they would have advised you not to.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Move in or I mean, Julie would have said something.
But also I feel like I was always kind of
that kid that kind of did what I want. And
I'm out of the house at that point, and what
are they going to do? They don't live anywhere nearby, so.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
You just were like, who, I'm going to do what
I want. I like that. Yeah, okay, So having I
came up in the nineties, and I feel like women
were often pitted against one another.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Oh yeah, I remember all the you know, whether it
was real or not.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Yeah, the media lists loved to stoke that fire. And
I was wondering if the atmosphere that you were in
at the mansion with that group of women, was it
the same for you And did the men there help
to sort of foster or encourage that competitive nature amongst
the women.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It were so bad and it was so bad, like
when I first moved in, there were six other women
living there and you know, they would come and go,
So the roster changed a couple times within the first
four years I lived there, and nobody got along. It
was awful, and I just thought, you know, I had
like one other friend there who would be Bridget, who
would end up on Girls next door with me. But
(13:05):
other than that, I didn't get along with anybody. Everybody
was trying to get everybody kicked out, everybody's starting rumors
about each other, and I was like, this is just horrible.
And it wasn't really until after when I would look
back on how things went at the mansion, or even
right about the time I left, because this was kind
of one of the things that made me want to leave.
I didn't realize that hef was kind of like low
(13:27):
key encouraging all.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
That, like pulling the string.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Yeah, because I think that was for his ego. He
felt good if he felt like the girls were fighting
over him. And also, we couldn't get together and ever
be like, you know what, we don't feel like going
out tonight or you know what, we want to do
this like, we couldn't ever get together and you know,
unionize so to speak, if we were all friends. So
it worked to his advantage to keep everybody fighting, and
(13:51):
it was just so miserable and stressful, and when I
kind of realized that's what's going on, it was kind
of the lost straw for me, and you know the
reason I left among men any reasons. Yeah, so that
was definitely going on. And then when the cast of
characters went down to three people, it was just me,
Bridget and Kendra who ended up on the show. You know,
of course, there's a lot of that in reality TV too.
(14:12):
They always want to make things look more hostile than
they were. The fact of the matter is that Bridget
and I had lived through so much drama up to
that point that we always tried really really hard for
everybody to get along, or if something happened we didn't like,
we'd just kind of be quiet about it and put
up with it. But the show doesn't want that, so
they'll take a picture of like me sitting there with
a resting bitch face and make it look like I'm
(14:33):
giving somebody a dirty look. And then that would continue
on even after Girls next Door. Because when Kendra and
I had our spinoff shows on e they were produced
by the same executive producer who did Girls next Door.
Who was very close with hef and even after you know,
he would like pick Kendra and I against each other.
And it's to the point where we still don't speak today.
So it's very, very toxic.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
That is so sad to me. Mm hmmm, because you know,
I know you you probably feel this way too as
you get older. As I've gotten older, I realized, like
what a waste of my time and energy that was,
and like, right, how much better it feels to lift
other women up around me. Yeah, that just changes how
(15:16):
I feel about myself, how I walk around in the.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
World one hundred percent. It's so stressful being in that
conflict all the time. It's like permanent fight or flight,
especially when you live with the people.
Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, I mean you were dubbed as his number one. Yes, uh,
and there was quite an age difference, Like yeah, we
don't talk about that much, but Hi, he was in
his seventies and you were just twenty one. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah? I was twenty two when I'm twenty two twenty
one when I first met him.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
In the early years of getting to know him, I'm
just I'm curious, did you think I'm falling in love
or was it more like how someone might sort of
describe idolizing a cult leader or something.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
It was a little bit of both. I mean, I
think in the beginning I very much looked up to him.
I admired everything he accomplished. He seemed like such a
great guy. You know, everybody when they first meet him
kind of has that same impression. And you know, you're
going up to these pool parties and he's surrounded by
all his closest friends who have nothing but glowing things
to say about him, and you just think, Wow, this
(16:20):
is like an amazing human being. And then you know,
when I moved in, I had seen from a distance
that girls kind of came and went, and he wasn't
really settling down with anybody, so I thought I would
just be there for a short period of time. But
we really bonded, and he was very good at like
love bombing and manipulating and things, So it did start
to feel like more of a relationship, and I did
(16:42):
get very emotionally involved, so I would say like later
it felt like falling in love, but it wasn't what
I had on my mind when I like first came
to a party or anything.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Like that you said before, or that the whole concept
of going there and having there be other women and
the whole group didn't really feel right to you. Did
you battle with that same feeling a lot during your
(17:12):
time there?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Absolutely, And I made it very clear that I didn't
like the multiple girlfriend thing. I didn't want it, and
he was always like, well, it's not always going to
be this way, just like a couple more years and
then like a year goes by, and then another year
goes by, and like things never change. But he would
always talk about like us settling down and things like that,
and then it just wasn't happening, and then it got
to a point where I didn't even want it to happen.
(17:35):
So I was always very clear that I didn't like
the multiple relationship thing.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
But it fell on deaf ears.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, I mean, I mean he definitely heard me. I
just don't think he gave a shit.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
That's even worse. I mean for me, this is where
it gets good.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Though.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
You had one of the biggest I choose me moments
you left the mansion and in two thousand and eight,
do you remember when you made that final decision to leave?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
I do, And it was kind of something that happened
gradually we were doing the show, which was a huge success,
and that, you know, I feel like helped my self
esteem a little bit because the show wanted to follow
us doing different things, so it gave us an excuse
because like we had a curfew. We weren't allowed to travel,
we weren't allowed to do anything once we entered into
that relationship. But with the show, we could actually go
(18:26):
film somewhere and because the cameras were with us, he'd
let us all stay a night somewhere or something like that.
And then I started working at the Playboy Studio. I
was producing and directing all the Playmate of the Month features,
and I loved that job. It was an amazing job,
like working with everybody there, working with the different women,
and I felt like that did so much for my
self esteem. And I started to feel because I almost
(18:47):
once I moved to the mansion, I felt kind of
like crippled before for lack of a better world. I
felt like, if I leave here, I'm not going to
be able to survive in the real world, which sounds
so strange, but it was just the mindset I was
locked in. But once I was like doing a career
and loving it, and you know and I were still
like talking about the future, and we actually like were
(19:08):
trying to have a baby. We were like doing in
vitro and everything, but it wasn't working. And when I
realized it wasn't working, I was like, well, I don't
know if I can stay here, you know, because I
always knew I wanted to be a mom, that was
just something that was, you know, a non negotiable for me.
So that was kind of the first realization I had
that I really wanted to leave. And then things just
(19:30):
started to get more and more tense between HEF and I.
I don't know what was going on with him at
that time. I almost look back at it now, and
you know, I've described on my podcast and things like that,
and a lot of people will chime in, like in
the comments on our YouTube or on our Patreon or
wherever we communicate with people and say that the way
he was behaving almost sounds like the first signs of dementia,
(19:51):
because I guess sometimes people can get really mean, and
not that he'd never been mean before. We'd certainly had
a lot of issues up to that point, but in
the very end, he started getting really mean, kind of
out of nowhere over so many things, and I didn't
know what that was at the time, and I was
just like, I can't do this, I can't handle it,
and I was I had already broke it off with
(20:11):
him and leaving in things, but I was still staying
in a different room with the mansion to kind of
finish filming the season five of the show, and we
were called back to do commentary for the last DVD
and Kendra was telling the story in front of the
producer about how, you know, we had been watching a
movie in a room and you know, have followed her
(20:32):
down to her room and said, well, why didn't you
sit next to me here? And she goes, oh, I
didn't want to, like move Holly out of the way.
And he started like stopping his feet and saying he
liked the drama and stuff. And that's kind of when
everything came together in my head and I realized he's
been orchestrating this drama and encouraging it the whole time,
which was incredibly hurtful to me because he knew how
much I hated all the fighting with the other girls
(20:53):
and how long it had been going on. So that
was definitely like the last straw and kind of like
made me lose any feelings spar him and just like
cemented my decision to move on.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Yeah, once you see somebody for who they truly.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Are, Yeah, you can't unless see it.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
And Yeah, you've opened up in the past about the
fact that you and he attempted IVF were together. Do
you think, looking back now as a mom that you are,
do you think that not working out was a blessing?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
One hundred percent? I can't even imagine it. It seems
so strange. The want to have kids was old, but
it was just the mindset I was in. It's like,
once I entered into that place, something happened to me
where I felt like, I need to make this work
or nothing else, and there's nothing else out there for me.
And you know, I could point to a number of
reasons why I think that is, but you know, long
(21:48):
story short, that was the mindset I was in. And
I'm just so glad everything worked out the way it
had because I had the best years of my life
after I left the mansion and the best you know,
career moments and the family moments and everything. So it's
just a really good example of how sometimes what you
think you want the universe has better.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Plans for you. Yes, I love when that happens. You
feel so divinely like supported somehow. Yeah, but you don't
feel that in the moment for sure.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I mean, just think about how hard it probably would
have been for you to leave him if you had
a child with him.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Oh yeah, it would have been impossible.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It would have been a whole different life for you.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Oh my gosh, I'm so happy that didn't wasn't successful.
Oh my goodness. Okay, So, yeah, we've both been through
breakups and divorces, and I know you're newly single, and
I know for me, each of those you know, big
life changing sort of obstacles turned out to be learning
(22:53):
opportunities for me. And even if I, you know, didn't
see them that way in the moment, I started to
recogniz my part in the reoccurring problems, my patterns that
are serving me. Have you had some of those sort
of revelations along your way.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
To Yeah, absolutely, And I think a lot of it
has a lot of like subconscious emotional unavailability, like picking
people that I know aren't going to be that available
because secretly I don't want to be that available, even
though I really think I do. It's a really layered thing.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yeah, why do you think in secretly or like deep
inside you you don't want to be available?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
I have no idea. It's so weird to think because
I don't think that's what I want, you know, But
my choices keep telling me that I'm picking people. Either
that or I just really like a challenge for no
good reason. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
When's your birthday?
Speaker 2 (23:49):
December twenty third. I'm a Capricorn.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Capricorn those are very strong ladies. Maybe it is the
challenge thing.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
So Capricorns always have to do things the hard way.
That's one thing I've noticed. We're very hard workers, but
we never take the easy route. It always has to
be the hardest one we pick for whatever reason.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Oh my gosh, I think, can I ask how old
you are?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Forty six?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Forty six? Okay, so you're going to be fifty soon,
you're going to be joining the club. I felt like
for me, after fifty, I realized so much about like
what a big, huge part my childhood and my past
played into why I was behaving the way I was
for so many years, and why I just kept repeating
it even though it didn't work, and yeah, like I
(24:33):
didn't understand why I kept going back to that empty.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Well, yeah, it's so weird.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
It's so weird, and you don't have sort of the
tools or the understanding on how what your life could
be like if you were to do things differently.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
One hundred percent. But also, like the catch twenty two
of it all is I really think all those bad
relationships we went through, like we had to learn something
from that too. It was never really a waste of time.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
What do you think that the biggest thing you learned
about your last relationship was for yourself.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
My last relationship, it was interesting because I was dating
this guy for six years, the last six years, and
it was during the time that I got diagnosed like
late diagnosed autistic, and he was somebody like we had
a lot of issues in our relationship, but one thing
I really liked about him was he very much accepted
me for how I was as far as like being
an introvert or not being that good with people socially.
(25:32):
A lot of people when they meet me, they I
seem very disengaged and they think I'm stuck up or
they think I'm being rude, and I'd had issues in
relationships with that before, where guys you know, really didn't
like that because they didn't think I was like a
business asset because I would go to a dinner with
them and They're trying to talk to somebody and I'm
not engaging the wife as much as I should be
(25:52):
or something, you know what I mean. So it turned
into like a big problem. They didn't like that. So
I was dating this guy who totally accepted me for
how I was, and I think that gave me the
space to kind of look into why I am the
way I am. And he was kind of similar in
a lot of ways. So it's weird that you would
spend six years with somebody and that would be the reason.
(26:14):
But it's kind of like my takeaway from that. Of
course I didn't know it at the time, but I'm like,
he was kind of the perfect person for what I
was going through and what I was learning about myself.
And also he was so introverted and so like, never
wanted to go out and do anything, but I so
fully got to indulge that side of my personality that
I don't want to indulge it as much anymore. So
(26:35):
now I feel now that I've learned what I've learned
about myself, I feel like I'm so much better equipped
to go out and actually work on my social skills
and network and do the things I need to do. Right.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, because you have to put yourself out there as
a single woman, a single mom. You've got to, you know,
keep pushing.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Forward one hundred percent. And for business, especially in the
entertainment industry, Like, I'm shocked I'm even working because I
never I never networked at all for like the longest time.
Like I went through this phase where I was like,
I'm not leaving the house, you know, back like twelve
years ago when I had kids. So I'm shocked I'm
even doing things now. But you know now, I don't
feel that way, and it's not the way I want
to operate.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
So remember in the beginning of the conversation, I told
you there's probably a lot of similarities in us. I'm
seeing them left and right.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Oh that's so close.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I'm an introvert as well, and I never networked, and
I've often thought like, oh my gosh. You know, they
say you have to be relevant or whatever to keep working.
I'm not relevant. But there's something that has kept me
pushing forward so that I can pay my bills, so
that I can take care of family. That thing. It's
(27:41):
like that's survival instinct, you know, and you know better
than anybody that you're on.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Your own kid totally.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I'm quoting a Taylor Swift song there, So I love it. Yeah,
that's so it's really very interesting, and I would imagine,
like what a what an impact in really great ways
but also in really like not so great ways that
time there, in that life, that life where you were
(28:13):
living that you stumbled into. What the effects of that
were for you for long term and just your sense
of self, your sense of you know, being able to
feel independent and grounded. It had to have had such
a profound effect on you.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, it's weird, and it's really layered. Like I can't
even point to one thing and be like, oh, I
had arrested development because I lived in this bubble. It's
like it's that, but it's so many other things too. Also,
when I exited the relationship, I just kind of wanted
to look back on it positively even though there was
a lot of negative and just like put a bow
on it and always talk about it like it was great.
But that didn't work for me because it wasn't truthful
(28:53):
and it wasn't just me looking at my experience and
what did I experience and how was it. It's also
dealing with like the world's opinion of what my experience
was and what it should have been. There was a
lot of that to work through too, so interesting.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Like do you feel like what the world thought and
wanted got interrupted? It sort of interrupted what you thought
and what you wanted.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Well on the first difficulty I had with it, I
felt was after I left the Mansion. You know, I
was on my own doing my own thing, and every
day somebody would come up to me in real life,
whether I was doing a meet and greet after my
show or I was just at the local Starbucks or something,
and they'd be somebody who was probably a fan of
the show, and they'd be excited to ask, Oh, how's
(29:42):
hell or do you miss the mansion? Or oh, I mean,
how is everybody? And you know, I hadn't had a
great time there, hence me deciding to leave, but I
didn't want to disappoint anybody, so as I was like, oh,
everybody's great, even though I'm thinking of my head, like
I haven't spoken to that man in years, and every
chance he gets he makes a low key snarky comment
about me and the media. But I felt this weird
(30:03):
responsibility to like still be the cheerleader and still make
everything sound like it was great, and it was really
creating like a pit in my stomach because you know,
sometimes people will look at me and be like, oh, well,
you know you're doing a podcast about the show or
you wrote a book about this, like why are you
still talking about it? And to them that might seem,
you know, out of pocket that I'm still talking about it,
(30:24):
but to me, like they have to understand every single
day of my life, I see somebody in the wild
who like wants answers or think they know what was
going on and stuff, and I think, yeah, I think
a lot of people really like bought in to have
some of my relationship and were invested in it and
wanted us to settle down, and we're disappointed when that
didn't happen. But it was a very polarizing relationship and
(30:48):
even though the show was beloved, it was also very polarizing.
Like I guess, a really simplified way to look at
it is back then. It's like, if you wanted to
put it in political terms, like conservatives didn't like us
because we were like naked sluts, and then liberals didn't
like us because they thought we weren't feminists. So it's
like you're kind of getting hate from all sides and people,
I don't know. There were people that loved the show
(31:09):
and were mad that I left and the relationship didn't
work out, And then there were people who just kind
of knew something was wrong, but you know, beneath the surface.
So it was to navigate.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah, yeah, you're right, so layered mm hmm. And I
too can relate with that, because when you are a
part of something that is so iconic, so looked at
from other people's perspective as being this amazing, incredible thing,
either wanting it or hating it, it gets it twists
(31:44):
things like for yourself.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah, it has more of an effect than people would think.
It's weird.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah, yeah, dating for anyone really, not just a single mom.
It's really not for the faint of heart. These days,
I've been there. Do you think you're gonna be ready
to date again?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I'm kind of like, I can't picture myself like dating,
so to speak, I'm like a long term relationship girl,
Like if it's like a long term relationship or nothing like.
I'm kind of at the point in my life where
I'm so busy with stuff that I'm like, either it's
the one or nothing, Like, I'm not interested in the
guy who's kind of hot or he's fun to sleep with,
or I'm going to date this guy here, and I'm
not interested in that capacity. What I like to find
(32:24):
love again, yes, But even like with my last relationship,
which is the only guy I dated since my divorce,
it was just hard because you know, I don't want
to introduce my kids to somebody unless I'm engaged, and
then I'm very busy with work. I'm very busy with
co parenting, So trying to find a slot in my
life to see a guy, even though I ended up
being with him for six years and it was quite
(32:45):
a serious relationship, from my perspective, it's just it's exhausting,
Like I don't have enough time in the day.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
You know, it takes a lot of work.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Mm hmmm. So if it's not the one, I don't
have time for it.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
And you've reached the age and you are independent, you're
a self made woman, like you're you're having such success now.
I think it just puts things into perspective one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
I just don't have time for it. Like I already
have kids, I already have my dream wedding. I don't
have these kind of goals I need to check off,
Like I just want the love of my life, you know,
I don't want to waste my time with anything less.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, you'll know, we kind of talked about this earlier,
how you had that example of love growing up and
still do with your parents. Do you think that you
have had that in your own relationships yet?
Speaker 2 (33:45):
No, or I'd still be with that person.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's hard. You know, you want to
live up to what your parents had or what you
saw as a kid, and any and anything that falls
short of that kind of feels like a failure.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Almost totally one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
So you and your girls next door co star bridget
how to rewatch podcasts? Like you mentioned, I have a
nine or two and oh rewatch podcast with my co
star Toy. Yes, and sometimes it's almost tortuous to oh
watch yourself.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Right, it's so all over the place. There's like the
really torturous cringe moments, but the moments I feel like
I need to apologize for because I feel like it
came off sounding mean about somebody when I didn't mean it.
And then there's and then sometimes, you know, I will
say about my rewatch podcast because I had written a
book about my experience at the Mansion, which was very
much talking about the negative because I felt like that
(34:40):
was the side nobody had seen through Girls next Door.
But I feel like during the rewatch podcast it allows
me more to reclaim like the good times as well,
like oh, that road trip we did with just the
girls was really fun, or you know, these buffet and
movie nights were really fun. So that's the positive side
of it from my perspective. But yeah, there's a lot
of cringe too, and a lot of stuff that, you know,
(35:02):
we have to point out, like that was totally fake
and that wasn't the way things really went down.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, for sure, when I'm watching myself back and I
see that younger me on the on the screen the TV,
I've always like, Wow, look what you did, Look what
you survived. You know, I can I know what was
going on in your real life during this time for
you know in this season of the show, and look,
look how how far you've come, do you? I mean,
(35:29):
I do can't imagine what it must be like for
you to have to rewatch something that was actually the
reality of you being in a relationship that caused you trauma,
like going, do you go back to those feelings?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, I mean I've worked through a lot of them
just from like writing my book and stuff, so it's
not completely fresh, but it's hard sometimes, like I will
watch things that will piss me off all over again
or me upset.
Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
I mean at the end of the day, I'm glad
to be out of it, so that's a positive.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Yeah. And at the end of the day, it was
a stepping stone for where you are right now with
your two beautiful children.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Totally, and it was, you know, even taking in the
negative parts into consideration, like I never wanted an ordinary life,
and then that's what I got.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
You got an unordinary life. Girl. I'm proud of you.
Oh my gosh. Yes, you have a twelve year old
daughter and a nine year old son. Their names are incredible,
Rainbow and Forest, two of my favorite things. Thank you
love that you named them that it seems like kids
are getting on the internet now and growing up so fast,
and you know, how do you feel about that with
(36:39):
your kids? Like do you are you do you control
their access to things that they're seeing on the internet
or are you able to?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
We do we? Me and their dad were both very
strict about it. They don't have phones, they do have iPads.
They're limited to an hour a day.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
My daughter loves my gosh, you are you are amazing
because I that I wanted to do that, and I
never like made it happen, like I was too weak.
I gave in.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
And know it's hard because she all she wants to do.
You know, she's obviously has other hobbies and things we
make her do, but all she wants to do is
be on the iPad with her friends. Yeah, it's a
lot of fights, but you know, we keep it strict.
Sometimes they'll get a road trip where they can take
their iPad in the car, but then Wi Fi doesn't
work the whole time either, So yeah, they only get
(37:27):
like an hour of iPad time. And they like to
watch things like we'll let them watch shorts on YouTube,
like on the big TV in the family room, you know,
on the kid only channel. So they like that. So
and sometimes something I'll come through that's a little bit inappropriate,
but I always you know, pointed out and we laugh
about it, and I think, I think things are pretty
(37:47):
good so far.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, Yeah, twelve, we're so good. Twelve is where it
starts to get even more challenging because they want to
do all the things that their friends are doing. Yeah,
and then you're like, it's hard to stay strong and
be the mean mom that doesn't let them do what
everybody else is doing.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Totally one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah, do your kids want to be in the industry
at all?
Speaker 2 (38:11):
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Do they do they have any interest in entertainment of
any kind?
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Sometimes my daughter asks about it and I have to
tell her, like, I don't think it's fun like you
think it is. Like you have to get up really early,
which you have to sit in a makeup chair for
like hours, you know, you have to do a lot
of reading, and I don't think it's as fun as
you think it is.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yeah, I know, but I tell her.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
You know, when you're eighteen, you can do what you want.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
But you do what you want. You are just so beautiful,
so are you?
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Oh God, are you kidding? You're like the idol of
my teenage years. You're like the beautiful woman.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
How I know how I have felt about it, But
how have you felt when it comes to aging in
the public eye. Do you ever feel like pressure? Because
then I can really you were captured on film and
you know, you were in Playboy and you are frozen
in people's memories in a certain way. Do you do
you feel that pressure? Does that weigh on you or
(39:10):
how do you get around that?
Speaker 2 (39:12):
I part of me has a sense of humor about
it because I was being told I was too old
from the day I set foot in la or not
too old, but like you're gonna be too old because
I'd be like waitressing, and you know, there'd be like
two older men at a table trying to act like
they're in the industry when they're really not, which is
such a common thing in La. Oh, they're like asking
(39:32):
me what I'm trying to do, and how old are you? Oh,
I'm nineteen. Well you're better hurry up and make you're it.
You're almost over the hill. So it's like I almost
have a sense of humor about it now because like
I'm forty six, and it's like if somebody wants to
tell me I'm old today. Cool because they were telling
me that when I was nineteen. Like, it's just it
means nothing to me now. Although but I do, you know,
I do care about how I look, and I do
(39:54):
Looking a certain way is fun for me. It's a hobby,
I like, you know, especially for making content online doing
my TV shows, I want to look a certain way,
like I'm in true crime now, and true crime lighting
is brutal. Going into season two of my true crime shows,
I was like, you guys, I'm gonna need a little
bit more lighting, Like I can't do the true crime
(40:14):
lighting anymore. So they were kind and they gave me
an extra light. But yeah, I mean, I get some
dysmorphia and stuff. I think the time I felt worst
about it was after I'd had my son, which is
my second kid. It was twenty I had him in
twenty sixteen, and this was around the time when social
media had been around for a minute, but everybody was
(40:35):
really getting online and really doing the front facing camera
stuff and selfies were the thing. And like, if I
scroll back on my camera roll to twenty sixteen, I
just see reams of me trying to take a picture
of my own face for whatever reason, and never liking
it because you know, when you're pregnant, you know, you
gain weight and things swell up, and your face even
kind of changes and things around a little bit. And
(40:57):
I just remember that feeling comes back when I see
those pictures, and the feeling of not recognizing who I
was anymore and feeling just so out of touch and
out of out of it. And you know, the postpartum
and the pregnancy hormones don't help with that, and it
was just such a sad, depressing feeling like I felt
(41:19):
like I wasn't myself anymore. And you know, I'm over
that now and I'm back and I've learned a contour
and I'm happy with the face again. But yeah, it's
a real thing. It happens, and it's just interesting how
it can really sometimes affect your sense of who you are,
even though like we all know deep down that we're
not you know, who ares people is not what we
look like. But when I was trying to learn a
(41:40):
flattering selfie angle, it was rough.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
I have so many of those bursts on my phone too,
where you're like, I don't like it, Like I've got it, yeah,
and then if someone by chance picks up your phone
and looks at your camera, world, it's so embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Totally, and it's like the iPhone front facing camera is
no one's friend, and it's sad and it doesn't match
what we see in the mirror, and I hate it.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
That's so true. You talked before, and you've been really
open about your diagnosis with autism. Do you think that
having that diagnosis or being having that awareness has impacted
your romantic relationships at all.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Well, I just broke it off with the guy I
was with when I found out I was on the spectrum,
and he was always, you know, great with talking to
me about it and being very understanding and things like that.
So he was a great person to be with for that.
I think it will make you know the next person
I'm with, I think it'll make it easier because I
think I'm better at communicating, making eye contact, you know,
(42:42):
understanding how I come across when I was so clueless
about it before. Yeah, hopefully that will be a positive.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
I think that that awareness that it gives you sort
of a relief and then opening to be more gracious
with yourself, you know, and allow yourself like to be
a little bit more kinder to yourself. Yeah, you're dealing
with something of that other people don't have to deal with.
Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, And I think when other people know that about
me too, maybe they won't take it so personally when
they catch me like zoning out or some some weird
thing that I do. Where before it was like, oh
my god, this bitch hates me and she's being so judgy.
Why is she?
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I think that you are such a survivor. Thanks, And
I wonder what made you go into the true crime area.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
Growing up, I always loved things like unsolved mysteries. I
always loved stuff that was a little bit creepy and
a little bit mysterious, even my fascination with like old Hollywood,
like I grew up obsessed with Marilyn Monroe, Like I
always loved the stories that kind of had a hint
of tragedy to them. For some reason, I was always
really drawn to those, and I never thought about getting
into true crime on my own, like I was always
(44:02):
a consumer of it, different podcasts I love listening to
and things like that. But my agent came to me
with the idea for Playboy Murders that the production company
had come to him with He's like, you know, if
you want to do this, the network wants to greenlight it.
And at first I was like no, because I didn't
want to do another Playboy branded thing. I was like,
I can't. I've reached my limit no more. But then
(44:22):
he's like, let me just send you the deck and
you know, let me know what you think. So he
sent me the deck and it was a lot of
cases I'd never heard of. They were all so different,
they were all so interesting, and I was like, no, wait,
this is a show I would actually watch. So that's
when I knew I wanted to be involved. And it's
just been such a rewarding, interesting process to be a
part of and I love doing it and I hope
(44:44):
we can do them more.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah, I mean, I'm really intrigued by it too. I
watched a little bit of it and I didn't know
about these cases, And so are all the cases on
the show about people in that world the play mates
play pla Boy world.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Yeah, in those cases, there's always somebody in each case,
whether it's the victim or the perpetrator, or somebody who
witnessed something in a major way. Was a part of
the Playboy world, whether they worked for the magazine or
were a bunny at one of the clubs, or we're
a playmate. So you know, a lot of my purpose
in the show as a talking hat is to give
a lot of background on what that world is like
(45:22):
and what the jobs were like and the history of
it and things like that. And each story is so
incredibly different. And we're on our third season now. I
can't even believe we've found this many cases. But when
you think about, you know, how long Playboy has been
in business, and how many Playboy clubs there were across
the country, and how many people worked for the company,
I guess it makes sense. So yeah, season three, you're.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
Going into season three mm hmm, that's so great. I'm
really happy for you. I'm glad you said yes to
it because it sounds like it's not it's not putting
you back where you don't want to be. It's putting
you into a place now where you're serving a different role.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
Yeah. I love telling the stories. I love and with
my other true crime show, Lethally Blonde, a lot of
the stories, not all of them, but a lot of
the stories focus on people who are involved in sex work.
So I like to tell a broader story about the
person rather than oh they were a dancer, or oh
you know they were you know, working, you know, just
(46:20):
doing escorting or whatever. People tend to get brushed off
that way. So I like to look into who was
this person and what else? Like if I were that person,
what would I want people to know about me? What
else about? Paint a broader picture of what was going
on in their lives? Except so many people get written off,
and you know, so many people are targeted. Perpetrators will
often look for sex workers because they think those are
(46:40):
the people who are on the fringes of society, and
those are the people that won't be looked for, so
they think they'll have more of a chance of getting
away with it.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
That's so sad. It's so sick. Do you feel like
exposing to yourself to all of that impacts you in
a negative way at all?
Speaker 2 (47:00):
I don't think so. I think I focus so much
on trying to get to know as best I can.
Obviously from the distance I'm at who I think that
person was and what else is going on in their life.
It's sad, of course, but I feel good trying to
tell their story in a dignified way. And one thing
(47:22):
that's really special to me about season three of the
Playboy Murders and season two of Lethally Blonde, which will
come out after this, is there are so many family
members of the victims who wanted to come forward and
share their stories. We didn't have that in the beginning,
you know, we would always reach out to the families
every single case. But I think because we have seasons,
(47:42):
you know, living on Max now that people can go
watch and see what kind of a show this is
and how we tell the stories, people want to be there.
And it's horrible that the stories have to be told
in the first place. But if you have to tell
the story, I think the best person or the best
people to get the last word are the loved ones
of the who are lost.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Yeah. I mean, I don't think a lot of people
know about the dark history of Playboy. Did you know
about it when you entered into that world, when you
lived there?
Speaker 2 (48:08):
Yeah, a little bit. I mean I learned about it
as I was there. Hef was a really big scrap booker.
He had two thousand volumes of scrap book on his life,
and he would save anything that was written about him
whether it was positive or negative. So over the years
I would come across things like maybe a book that
was written about him in the seventies that had a
lot of negative things in there that I almost didn't
want to believe, just because this was the person that
(48:30):
I loved and cared about. So I would, you know,
make excuses in my head like, oh, well, this can't
be true, or you.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Know, yeah, but it was. Yeah, that's wild. What a
life you've lived, fascinating, interesting, and.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
You're not you're altomster.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah yeah, who. I'm sure who expected it. But to
see you succeeding and pulling away from it and surviving
that trauma and thriving is really inspirational.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
And to see you as an example to other women
to be able to stand up for yourself and risk
losing it all in order to survive in order to
take better care of yourself is really really inspiring.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
Thank you. Yeah, you have to follow your gut when
you know it's time to go, it's time to go,
for sure. There were no guarantees. You know, we'd been
on a hit TV show for a while, but you know,
we'd been in this playboy bubble where nobody could really
reach us as far as other opportunities, like, I didn't
think I would have anything waiting for me. On the
other side, I had like a tiny bit of money
I saved up, and all I knew was I couldn't
(49:41):
do this anymore.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Where did you go when you moved out?
Speaker 2 (49:46):
Well, I moved down the hall at first because I
had to fish doing some scenes for season five, so
I had a little bit of time to kind of
get myself together. And I immediately started dating a guy
who was real bad news, and that did pretty quickly.
But I had put money down on an investment property
that I had wanted to rent out, and I had
crashed there for a while and then almost I would
(50:09):
say like four months after I moved out, fully, I
broke up with that bad relationship. And I had been
wanting to do Dancing with the Stars so bad, and
I kept like auditioning and trying out and they kept saying, no,
you know, I don't think it's going to work like
you're you're dating this eighty year old man. I don't
think Middle America is going to accept you. But they
finally took me on because one of the contestants got
(50:31):
injured right before the season started, and they needed somebody
last minute. So they're like, who wants to do this
so bad that they're going to step in last minute
without all the rehearsal everybody else has had. Oh my god,
it's me, It's me, It's me. Yeah, And I'd so
much fun and it was such an amazing couple of months.
And during that time, I also like one of my
goals was I was a really big fan of Deeda
(50:53):
Anties and The Crazy Horse and Paris and things like that,
and I really wanted to do something in burlesque just
for fun. Like my original idea was I was going
to do it as like a plotline for Girls next Door,
like kind of a one and done just for fun.
But then I kind of got this in my idea
after talking to a few people, No, I'd really like
to do something in Vegas at one of the places
on the Strip. And they happened to have a new
(51:15):
show that was opening that was a thirty million dollar budget,
you know, from Broadway directors, this burlesque show coming in
and they were looking for somebody for that, and I
was auditioning for it while I was doing dancing with
the stars, and I ended up getting that, and it
was just like everything kind of fell into place, like
everything I wanted. It was like the ultimate, you know,
domino effect of manifestation. But I could never predicted that.
(51:37):
Like when I decided to leave the mansion, I was like,
I don't know what I'm going to do, Like I
can't afford an assistant anymore, Like all I have to
you know, I have time to just do my own errands,
like I really didn't know, Like I have this list
of things I wanted to do, but they all seemed
like such long shots, but they really fell into place.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
That's the thing. When one door closes and you let
that other door open, it's logical things happen.
Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, it's so scary. It's like the whole jump and
the net will appear thing. And I'm still at forty
six years old. I'm not used to it. But I
know it's a thing, and I know it's true, and
I know it's what I have to keep doing.
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Yeah, I keep pushing for that. That's so amazing. Well,
before I let you go, Hollie Madison, what was your
last I choose me moment?
Speaker 2 (52:22):
This is just so simple and silly but I just
have to choose to enjoy life because I'm really achievement oriented,
and I tend to throughout my life go through different
phases of like having anxiety of not having achieved enough,
or I'm not on track or I haven't done this yet.
And every day like I'm looking at it right now
because I'm sitting in front of my window, like I
(52:43):
love my backyard. It's so pretty, and every day almost
I take a picture of it and I post up
my Instagram story and I'm like, it's a perfect day.
And I just remind myself to like choose to love
life every day because you could have the most amazing life,
which I feel like I do, and still fall into
this weird where you feel like you don't have enough,
you're not achieving enough, and no, no, you just have
(53:04):
to choose to love life. So that's mine. I choose
me moment that is a perfect one.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
Thank you so much for coming and being with us today.
I have loved talking to you and getting to know
you a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
Thank you. I'm such a huge fan. It was such
a privilege to talk to you and this was so nice.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
I'll be rooting for you, thank you, where you go,
thanky so much, have a good one.
Speaker 2 (53:29):
Bye bye.
Host
Jennie Garth
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