September 20, 2022 • 52 mins
By the 1920s, Fred Gentner Drummond was deeply embedded in Osage financial affairs. His store extended credit to Osages. He administered the estates of many of these same Osages – approving big debt repayments from them to his own store. But Fred Gentner and his brothers had another lever – a way to make Osage money work for themselves, and their friends. Hear how it worked, and how one Osage man fought back. Learn more and see bonus material from the episode at https://bloom.bg/3BWIAxF.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Got You. Speaker. Um. I have a young woman here
and she is doing a story. Last time I was
in Pahasca I met a woman named Billy Panka. I
had heard of billy. She used to work at the
white hair memorial, the osage research and learning center, and
while we were talking I told Billy I was trying
to find someone who knew an o s age man
(00:22):
named Myron Banks Jr. Billy hopped on the phone, started
calling friends relatives, and his name was Lauren Banks B
A N G S and he sued his Guardian. I
was curious about Myron because the Drummond brothers were his guardians,
some of the white men the US government had put
(00:44):
in charge of the finances of o s ages and
other native Americans. In total, the three Drummond brothers were
guardians to at least ten o s ages, children and
adults in the United States. Sued them over how they
handled my affairs. Yeah, they've never heard of him. Okay,
all right, and handld spread the word. I need to
(01:07):
know who he is. Of course he used to Safetan
gons for quite some time. I found the lawsuit in
the National Archives. My Iron had commissioned a private audit
(01:30):
on his accounts and sent what he learned to the government.
He left behind a ton of documents with his lawyer
other than Myron Byan's juniors records. There isn't a whole
lot in the archives about the Drummond brothers guardianships. The
official records are under seal in the O s age
county courthouse. So this is one of the most complete
looks inside a guardianship that I've seen. When I've asked
(01:53):
members of the Drummond family today about the three brothers,
Fred Gettner, Cecil and Jack and whether any of knew
anything about their guardianships, the either told me they didn't
know the brothers were guardians or, if they did, they
had always heard it was because their ancestors were trustworthy.
There's a moment in the tapes with Jack Drummond and
(02:16):
his biographer, Terry, where Jack brings up guardianships. It's in
the middle of an unrelated conversation. Actor Terry asked Jack
about his relationship with his brothers. You seem too, as
a boy, have been a friend with your sil then
with them with Gantner. Is that so? Would that be true? Yes, Gattner,
(02:39):
see gettner was always jealous macy from them news. To
be safe, he's griping about his brother Fred ginner again. Remember,
Jack was mad he didn't get that bonus after he
made a huge profit at the store. He was also
mad his brother ended up with control of the store
once their dad died. Jack Las All this out to Terry,
(03:02):
all his frustrations with Fred Gettner. Then he says I
wouldn't want this said. Are repeated and never bring out
in in in anything. You right, but getting with a hipocrap.
He was very selfish and he was the administrator of
(03:24):
my fathers, the state, and somehow he ended up with
the began thom. Of course, he said, that's him shared.
But then he dealt with the Indians. Of course he
made a lot of money off the Indians and he
was administrator of the states and he was he was
(03:45):
guardian for several Indian to handle all our money and
all the money never passed through getting Roman's hands. Some
of it stuck to him, uh, stuck to hit hand,
stuck to his hands. Jack seemed to say his brother
(04:08):
Fred Getner had been up to something, and what I
learned from Iron Banks Jr was that Jack Wasn't alone
in thinking so. One of Fred Getner's boards thought so too,
and at one point so did the United States government.
This isn't trust. I'm Rachel Adams hurt. Myron banks junior's
(04:39):
lawsuit was filed in the nineteen forties, but to understand
what led to it you have to know that the
Drummond's involvement with his family starts way earlier, back when
Myron was a baby. Not long after the nineteen of
six a lotment. Myron was born just a little too
late to have a head right in his name. His mother,
father and older brother got them, as well as land.
(05:01):
But right after the Allotment Act Myron's father, Myron being senior,
and his infant brother Percy both died. Myron's mom, Lucy,
was left to raise him on her own. Frederick Drummond,
the Scottish immigrant who ran the store, he handled myron
senior in Percy's estates, which passed their land and head
(05:21):
rights to Myron Jr and Lucy. This made them both
incredibly wealthy. But when Myron was twelve years old, his
mom became sick. The records say she had tuberculosis and
all of a sudden, a lot of men became very
interested in her affairs. There was a man named Robert
(05:45):
White Cloud, who married Lucy right when her health took
a turn. Not long after, she went to New Mexico,
hoping the dry air would help her symptoms. That's when
a second man took an interest. His name was bright roddy.
He followed her to New Mexico, all the way from Pahaska.
He wanted to write her will. By February, lucy was
(06:10):
back in harmony. That's when a third man got involved.
It was another Drummond, Fred Getner, who by now had
taken over the store. He wanted to write lucy a
different will. According to probate testimony, Fred getner visited her
every day while she was so sick she couldn't get
out of bed. Lucy died a few weeks later, on February,
(06:38):
at just thirteen years old. Myron had lost his entire family.
The homony trading company was Lucy's undertaker, just like it
was for a lot of other o sages who lived
in Hominy, and Fred getner became executor of her will,
(06:59):
the one he wrote for her. Three estates, myron seniors,
Percy's and Lucy's all handled by the drummonds and then
a guardianship of myron banks Jr. He was orphaned and
all his folks and his grandfather, grandmother, his mother and
his dad, aunt and uncle whatever, they all died and
that's why he came into all that money. This is Myron,
(07:22):
Read Eagle. His name was on a Business Card Billy
Panka gave me when she was trying to help me
track down someone who knew myron banks Jr, my cousin
Openmar Banks Jr. I live here in Pahaska. Myron's on
the O sage Minerals Council, the elected officials who oversee
the O stage mineral estate. When I sat in that
(07:42):
big room with Everett Waller asking about non Os age
head right holders, I was just inches away from where
Myron sits whenever there's a meeting. I think that Nabe
after him because I kind of looked lacking. That's what
my mom used to say. It looks like brother Mayron,
she used to say. So this is a picture I
found of him at Um the Oklahoma historical society. Yeah,
that's hiamh. Yeah, do you think? Do you think you
(08:04):
look like him? Yeah, the way I do. Yeah, what
features do you see? Probably a small yeah, for what
it's worth, I see it too. Myron read Eagle has
a big smile. I thought a lot as he told
me about his cousin. He don't give me a dollar
every time he came to the e. You just give
everybody a dollar and they were silver dollars in those days.
(08:26):
You know, by the time Myron Read Eagle met myron
Banks Jr, Myron bigs junior was in his forties. He
had airplanes. He could fly airplanes. He was smart, he
wouldn't they were no dumb guy, you know, he knew
how to fly a plane. I don't know what the
restrictions for on those days, but he had his own plane.
There was a story about it. In those days they
had what they call feast, big feast, you know, and
(08:49):
they had to start a fire but they couldn't get
it started and uncle Martin flew into the field. They
came in there and they said what's going on? You know,
they were all talking oak stage and they were trying
to start this far. You know, you give me that
thing and he grabbed grabbed one and he stuck. At
one time got a spark got started just like yeah,
and he said, okay, I want to go back to Talso,
(09:10):
I'll be back later. He got into you got the
fire started. I gotta kick out that. The Drummond Brothers
guardianship of myron banks Jr started when he was just
a child, but it lasted well into his adulthood because
even though he was educated, could fly an airplane served
(09:31):
in the army, the US government considered him incompetent. He
said he couldn't control his own money and kept the
drummond brothers in charge instead. A lot of myron's personal
records are in an archive in Oklahoma City at the
Oklahoma historical society. There are boxes of old handwritten letters,
postcards and telegrams from Myron's travels, his honorable discharge from
(09:54):
the army. Even an old date book of his Maroon
embossed with junior on the front, old the week he
got married, is full of reminders to pick up pants
from the dry cleaner and check in about the marriage license.
Looking at all this, I felt like I got a
little peek into what Myron might have been like as
a person. Intelligent, persistent, a bit sarcastic at times and later,
(10:17):
when he became a husband and father, doting and pretty religious.
In that archive there are also boxes and boxes of
legal records, because this collection belonged to Myron's lawyer, a
man named Paul Comstock, and when I met with Myron
Read Eagle, I showed some of these records to him.
They're old, some handwritten, kind of hard to read. We
(10:41):
have had so much trouble with our guardians that we
do not want to at least and to either his
or or any of his employees. This is a letter
Myron bings Jr wrote directly to the Commissioner of Indian affairs,
the head of the whole agency, right before he hired
(11:01):
Paul Comstock. He was in his twenties and Myron he
had a few choice words for the US government about
his guardian, Fred Ghetner Drummond. He titles the letter one
example in the Os age and then starts describing exactly
the kind of scheme you might find in the gray book,
that report from the fifties that listed so many guardianships
(11:22):
gone wrong. Myron said Fred Getner was leasing his land
to Horace Burkhart, a nephew of William Hale, the one
allegedly behind a lot of the murders during the reign
of terror. But myron said Horace wasn't actually using the land.
Fred Getner was, and according to this letter, Fred Getner
was trying to discount the rent for himself and charge
(11:44):
Myron for a barn and offense that he had put up.
Myron told the commissioner that Fred Getner was perfectly capable
of paying the full price. He ran the hominy trading company,
after all. Myron wrote stand incognito in his place of
business for one were and ascertained the prices that he
charges the Indians. I remember mom saying a lot of
(12:05):
time he was always fighting for against the system. You know,
that's what it was right there. It's always fight, trying
to get something going. He he had sound enough evidence
to do it. You know, according to that he was
trying to get everybody's attention. Evidently, you know, he wasn't
the only one. There was a lot of people in
that same situation. Myron Jr said he had written to
(12:29):
the O s age agency and PAASCA that oversaw guardianships.
They apparently didn't do much. He was fed up. He
wanted someone, anyone in the US government to care in
other words, they went along with the Guardian. You know,
that's what they did. They didn't. They didn't really take
up for Uncle Maron. They just passed the buck and
give it to them. Let's say get the Guardian makes
(12:49):
the decision, and if he makes the decision, they're noting
uncle American. So myron was complaining to the agency about
his guardian and the agency was telling him to go
back to his guardian with his complaints. Yeah, yeah, exactly
what it raged. Okay, no, Mr Springer tries to discourage
us and taking an interest in our affair. Mr Dabble
(13:11):
or dibble or whatever it is, is the only one
in a Plaska to see that seems to take any
interest in our affairs, and it's hard to read him. Yeah, sorry,
this one is tough. Yeah, I mean, did you see
the point though? And it's crooked. Even the agency was
crooked reopening in affairs. They were crooked. They didn't want
(13:34):
to mess with it. They knew that the Guardian would
get whatever we wanted and went along with it. In
this letter that Myron sent to the Commissioner of Indian affairs,
he says we are writing to you personally because we
cannot get action elsewhere. A couple of weeks later Myron
wrote the O C age agency again. He said he
(13:55):
wanted his guardian removed, that he preferred the agency have
control of his finance. Says not, Fred Getner. And yet,
as far as I could tell, the office of Indian
affairs didn't step in. So myron took matters into his
own hands. He hired comstock at the end of n
four and a few months later Fred getner resigned as
his guardian. Myron and comstock had enlisted a team of
(14:19):
accountants in Tulsa to conduct an audit of his account
the accountants came back with a five page report. The
word confidential is written on the front. They offer a
disclaimer of sorts at the beginning. They say there wasn't
(14:41):
any standard way that guardians submitted receipts, so it would
have been, quote, almost impossible for the US government to
conduct any sort of accurate review of how the Drummond
brothers were handling Myron's money. But even without a lot
of those receipts, the auditors filled five pages with discrepancies.
Were issues they found after coming through Myron's affairs. According
(15:04):
to this, Fred Getner was leasing out land that Myron
wasn't getting paid for and he was making loans to
people from Myron's funds that were in default for years
before Fred Getner did anything about it. Another example stood
out to me. Fred Getner Drummond apparently sold some of
Myron's property to a man named you Nelson. He Got
(15:24):
Myron a thousand dollars for the land, but a few
months later Fred getner about the same piece of land back,
paying seven thousand dollars of Myron's money. According to the audit,
Myron was left with the same piece of land, but
he was out six thousand dollars. It's only after the
audit myron commissioned that the federal government took an interest
(15:44):
in his complaints. A U S attorney used one of
the examples in the report and sued the drummonds in
the lawsuit is filed in federal court in the northern
district of Oklahoma, the United States of America, versus Fred
G Drummond, R C Drummond and Alfred a drummond. I
showed it to Myron ready. Goal R C Drummond, a
(16:06):
guardian of the said Mayron banks junior and Fred g
drummond conspired in the devised a scheme. Due to Aud
the said moner banks junior in the following manner. The
case names all three brothers because, even though Fred Getner
was calling all the shots, Cecil was the one who
is technically listed as Myron's guardian. Jack Drummond was involved
(16:27):
to in order to be a guardian, you needed a
surety bond, basically a promise from someone else that if
you didn't act in the best interests of your reward
or took advantage of your position, they'd be on the
hook to a lot of times these bonds came from banks,
but in Myron Junior's guardianship the bond was issued by
Jack Drummond. So all three brothers had a hand in
(16:50):
controlling myron junior's affairs and all three brothers were sued
by the federal government. Out of everything in the audit,
the US focused on one specific land dispute from when
Myron Junior was thirteen, when Lucy banks died, Fred Getner,
who was acting as myron junior's guardian, transferred a piece
(17:10):
of land into Myron Junior's name. He paid himself three
thousand seven hundred thirty two dollars and ninety nine cents
from my iron's account. The US thought this transaction showed
fraud because what the auditors found was the Land Fred
Getner sold to Myron Junior. It already belonged to Myron Junior.
It was Lucy's and when she died it passed to
(17:32):
Myron Jr. The US was arguing there was no reason
for Fred Getner to sell it him. It's further lands.
R C Drummond, the guardian of this ward, had allowed
to said Fred G Drummond to draw and checks upon
the funds of Said Ward, to incur claims against this
ward and generally assumed in conduct the affairs and official
(17:52):
authority of such guardianship, without authority of law and contrary
to the statutes of Oklahoma. Yeah, that was illegal. He
didn't do that. The Drummond brothers had a drastically different
version of events, one a federal judge agreed with. They
argued that this was all part of a well orchestrated plan,
(18:12):
a plan lucy was in on. According to the brothers,
they were just trying to keep Lucy's husband of less
than a year, Robert White Cloud, from getting her land
after she died and the three thousand seven hundred thirty
two dollars and ninety nine cents that Fred Getner paid
himself for my iron junior's account. That was just to
cover a debt Lucy owed him from before she died.
(18:36):
The judge who presided over this case was actually the
same one who gave William Hale a life sentence, judge Kennemer,
and what Kennemer said in his order in this case
was that there wasn't any evidence the drummonds cheated or
defrauded Myron bings Jr. He said the Drummond brothers had
in fact helped Myron by getting him land that he
would have had to share with Robert White Cloud. The
(18:58):
money Fred Getner paid himself was a quote, irregular way
to settle a debt, Kinnamer wrote, but Fred Getner was
just acting in accordance with Lucy's will, the one Fred
Getner wrote and executed. Judge Kinnamer said the county court
had signed off on all this and the superintendent of
the O s age agency had full knowledge of it.
(19:19):
I'm not sure why the US didn't include any of
the other transactions that came up in the audit myron commissioned.
Maybe Fred Getner had information that explained a lot of
the questionable transactions. When Fred Getner resigned, Paul compstock filed
a bunch of objections to the Guardians Final Report. The
County Corps overruled those objections and the stage agency signed
(19:41):
off on it. But I'm not sure the auditors found everything,
because while I was going through Jack Drummond's financial records
I found something else. This one's kind of interesting. This
was actually part of the Drummond's personal collection. In yeah,
(20:01):
this piece of paper is unlike a lot of the
other records in Jack Drummond's collection. Most of those were
formal written to business colleagues or bankers, but this one
it's written more like notes from a conversation between two brothers.
The top says getting her Drummond told a, a d,
The initials for Jack's given name, Alfred Alexander. Below it
(20:24):
there's a list numbered one through ten, each a description
of some sort of transaction. It's number two, the one
about May and banks, G D N And Guardian. Guardian.
Fifteen thousand views in payment Bill Hill Land, repaid by a,
a and D. Jack writes myron banks Guardian. Fifteen thousand
(20:47):
dollars used in payment Bill Hale Land, repaid by a
a D fifteen thousand dollars that the drummonds borrowed from
Iron Banks Jr to buy Bill Hale's land, land that
belonged to the mastermind of the O s age murders,
land he sold before he went to prison. I had
read in Jack's biography that the drummonds bought Bill Hale's ranch.
(21:11):
It was that single reference to the reign of terror.
It read Bill Hale, a local rancher, had to sell
his land because he was going to prison for conspiring
to murder most of an O s age Indian family
so their head rights would evolve to his nephew. Despite
the auditors and the lawyers, no one ever noticed that
the drummonds seemed to have bought this land with Myron's money,
(21:34):
or if they did, they never said anything. This note
was the first I had seen of it. When the
DRUMMONDS bought Bill Hale's land in x Myron bangs was
eighteen years old. Part of the land included three hundred
fifteen acres that hale had gotten from an o sage
man named George Bigheart. Five years before bigheart mysteriously died
(21:56):
in what is now one of the most well known
examples of an unsolved order during the reign of terror.
And what this note written by Jack seemed to say
was that O s age money, Myron's money, helped the
drummonds buy it from Hale. I've looked into what happened
to this land after the drummonds bought it. It turns
out a lot of the bill hall ranch they bought
(22:17):
in partnership with another big ranching family in Osage County,
the mullandors. Eventually the Drummond brothers sold their interests in
the land to the mullandors. Today it's owned by a
bunch of different people and ranching incorporations, including one affiliated
with the Mormon Church. By the time Fred Genner resigned
(22:48):
as his guardian on January three, Myron Banks Jr was
twenty eight years old. He had spent most of his
life under the drummonds financial control, and that whole time
Fred Getner was collecting a fee for doing it, more
than fifteen thousand dollars over the course of Myron's guardianship,
(23:09):
something like a quarter million dollars in today's money. In
y eight, after more than two decades of O s
age guardianships like Myron Juniors, the acting secretary of Interior
sent a letter to the head of the OS age agency.
(23:30):
He said a series of audits the government had conducted
on O s age guardianships showed that many of these
guardians were profiting directly or indirectly off their wards. He
wrote that it was a generally accepted rule of law
that guardians shouldn't have business dealings with their awards, that
it was against public policy. He told the superintendent to
(23:50):
make a copy of the letter and send it to
all the existing guardians and their lawyers. Meanwhile, Myron wasn't
stopping at his own guardians. In nineteen thirty nine, he
wrote a letter to Paul Comstock asking for his help
with a young o sage man named Otis Penn. Myron
(24:12):
said he told Otis about Paul Honesty and ability to
help him in the past. According to Myron, Otis wanted
an audit of his account. He didn't know who was
leasing his land where his money was being invested. Myron
thought Paul Comstock would be able to help him out.
After reading this letter, I looked into Otis Penn's guardianship.
(24:34):
Otis was an orphan too. He had been under guardianship
since he was just a kid. Just like Myron. His
Guardian was Fred l shed, the man who worked in
the Drummond store. At one point Fred l shed was
leasing Otis's land to Cecil, Drummond and Hugh Nelson, the
same Hugh Nelson who had bought and sold Myron's land
(24:55):
through Fred Gentner and apparently made six thousand dollars. So
you Nelson was also in business with the DRUMMONDS, leasing
land and partnership with Cecil through Fred l shed. At
one point, it seems Cecil and Hugh Nelson weren't paying rent.
In n the Department of Interior threatened to sue them
if they didn't pay two hundred dollars in rent on
(25:16):
six hundred forty acres of Otis's land they were leasing.
And just like Fred Getner loaned out myron's money, Fred
l shed loan money from Otis Pen's account. He lent
Cecil Drummond six thousand dollars. All these records revealed so
much about the inner workings of an O s age guardianship.
And it was all because one os age man, Myron
(25:39):
Baines Jr, hired a lawyer, he trusted, a lawyer who
kept his files and donated them so that decades later,
we can see what one of these guardianships really looked like.
They knew how to get around people, you know, and
I'm not saying the off ring are that way, but
they managed to buy the land and there. Now they
weren't telling you what. There were other people that bought
(25:59):
land into you know, but the drums just had to
be the one family that they got the most of it,
and our people were. They weren't dumb, you know, they
weren't ignorant at all, but things like it went on.
It was beyond their control. Everything that happened between Myron
bangs and the Drummond brothers was because the United States
considered myron incompetent, even though he had his pilot's license,
(26:23):
he was formally educated. He was writing letters to federal
officials at the Department of Interior begging them to look
into his guardianship. In one note, scrawled and Pencil, Paul
Comstock wrote to someone. If you considered Myron so childish
and incompetent, why did you write him those comprehensive and
detailed letters which are in evidence. M M M M M,
(26:54):
m HM, M hmm. It's kind of an irony about it,
the drum harmony. We're kind of like. Uh, if if
an ending end in person or stage ending needed money,
(27:18):
they were always there to give it to him. You know,
they always had money. And if they needed credit at
the store, you know, the partneer store, whatever, whatever they
owned down here, they would give them credit and uh,
and then they just thought they were good people, you know,
as Myron ready equal, and I looked over these documents,
myron told me this wasn't the only time his family
(27:39):
had crossed paths with the Drummond brothers. Sometime in the
fifties his mom wanted to buy a house in Pasca.
It's actually the one myron lives in today. My mom
had a little bit of land left and they had
wanted to move up here because he had to drive
back and forth to Pascal all the time, you know,
sign things, and she said I'll just a little bit
(28:00):
land and and see if we can find a house
in Pasca. So they weren't looking for a home and
they found one out here and so she went to
season Drummond, the old man, he's a real big guy.
But they I walked in and they all walked in
and he said, Veril Virgie, what do you want? What
do you want? You know, and it's just see's a lot.
I got a house and they have a house in Pahuska.
(28:20):
I'd like to have it, you know. He said, well,
what do you got? He said Yeah, he had about
forty acres over here, across the road. He said, all right,
you give me that land, I'll buy that house. That's
how we're to trade it. So and it was an auction.
So there's about four or five different families were wanting
at home and they started that at five thousand dollars,
(28:42):
and there was a lot of money in the fifties,
you know. Hu and they went up to six thousand
and Mr Drummond raised he had big cowboy had on.
He raised his hand. Six thousand, seventh island, he raised
his hand. He just kept going up. You know, they
couldn't that did him. You know, he wanted that forty
acres and he said whatever you you should Birdie, whatever
you want, I'll get it for you. He out bit
(29:03):
everybody and I still live in that house today. Do
you ever wish you had lapa? No, no, it's it's gone.
It's gone. They don't sell their lamb. As myron and
I spoke, we talked about members of the Drummond family today,
the descendants of Cecil and Fred Gentner, and Jack Iron
(29:24):
told me he knows a few of them, gets along
with some of them. Yeah, they're there's just a big family.
It's a big family. Times change, you know, to be
there as it may. It's like a phrase says, you know,
we can't do nothing about the past. You know that
the past is gone. What happened then and it's all
in the past. You know, it's just too bad that
it happened away. It's kind of it kind of hurss
(29:46):
me in a way, but I don't think it urked
me as much as it did my folks. You know,
and and other people that that generation. The grass is
so pretty, like how the gold contrast with the Blue Guy.
(30:07):
Even after Myron spent years fighting the DRUMMONDS, a lot
of his lands still ended up in their hands. A
non O sage wife of one of Myron's relatives inherited
some land after he died in the eighties. She sold
it to a drummond. This section I drove out to.
It's part of the eighty acres of Percy's land now
owned by Drummond Ranch LLC. So this is Percy bangs
(30:32):
original allotment. Today it's owned by Drummond Ranch LLC and
that Drummond entity is owned by getting her Drummond, and
he is the one who's running for Oklahoma Attorney General.
So this is all his ranch now. It's a very
(30:53):
large ranch, much larger than just Percy's original. All that.
We'll be right back. Good Morning. I help you. Um.
(31:24):
We're with Bloomberg. We have an interview with Gettner Grummond. Yes,
you will go on in the boardroom. I went to
interview getting her last January. At that point I was
just beginning to put together what these records all meant.
No one from back then is still alive today, but
I was curious what their descendants thought of all this,
if they had any other information that I wasn't finding
(31:45):
in the archives. Good Morning. Hi, I'm Rachel. Getting her
owns Blue Skye Bank and several US cellular stores. He
still owns the pioneer store building in hominy. He's been
practicing law in and around Os age county for a
long time. When we talked getting her how ton't get
(32:05):
one the Republican primary for Attorney General. So talk to
me about the attorney general race. Why? Why are you running? Well, Um,
when I was about twelve, my great grandfather sat me
down and said you're the oldest of sixty five of
my great grandchildren and none of them are going to
(32:29):
do more than you. You'RE gonna you're the oldest and
so you need to just aim as high as you
can and be as straight as you can and be
as successful as you can. And I think it's appropriate
that when your family has grown, that you serve in
state government. It wasn't lost on me as a twelve
year old, I mean I was. I took very serious
(32:50):
my role as the oldest of that generation and the
leader of my clan. And then now my children are
all grown and established in the communities that they live
and have the time and the opportunity to run for
a statewide office. And that was Cecil who told you this.
So do you remember, like where that conversation was? We
were driving in his car. Um He drove at that
(33:13):
at that point in his life, he would drive around
the county all day long checking on his sons and
grandsons operations and his brothers and cousins operations, and he
loved to drive into his big cadillac and smoke a
cigar and he liked company. I think that day I
was driving him and yes, at twelve I was driving
(33:36):
him around the county and he was telling me, as
we were passing pastures, the heritage of the land, who
owned it and and when we purchased it, and then
talking about my role as the family, the eldest of
the family. Do you think about that conversation often? A
lot of the conversations from parents, grandparents great grandparents have
(33:57):
been very impactful on me. One of the things gettinger's
run on is a commitment to work more with tribal
nations in Oklahoma. He talked about that when we met
our governor, for some reason just can't see it in
himself to act rationally, and so he's driven a wedge
between the native American tribes and the State of Oklahoma
and I can, I think that I can undo that.
(34:19):
I'm respectful of their sovereignty and can foster our relationship
such that we can figure our way forward gettner also
holds the title to about twenty six thousand acres of
ranch land in Oth Age county, more than anyone else
in the extended Drummond family. The base of my cattle ranch,
(34:41):
Cecil purchased was passed down to my grandfather, Ghent ghet
nerve drummond. He has some of that original land and
some of that was passed to my father, Leslie, and
then some of that was passed down in my instance.
I did not take any inheritance from anyone. I bought
(35:01):
all of my land from siblings and mother neighbors. So when,
when did you personally first get involved in ranching and
what led you there? It's an interesting segue into your
question because a native, a neighbor of our ranch who
was also a native American Um liked me and I
(35:26):
didn't necessarily like my father, but as a fourteen year
old she approached me to acquire her ranch and I
was fourteen and had no money and it was a
minor and she arranged for me to become emancipated and
in her into contract to buy her are ranch. So
that's when I began as a landowner in the o
(35:49):
sage and effectively a rancher. And why did you have
to become emancipated? Because you can't enter into a contract
until you're eighteen. You're not an adult until you're eighteen.
So for a fourteen year old to enter into a
contract I had to go to court. The court had
to deem the competent to become emancipated to enter into
the transaction. I can remember it clearly. The judge called
(36:10):
me back into his chambers with my attorney and asked
me many questions that judges now, I realized as a lawyer,
asked a determined competency. You know, where were you born?
Where do you live? WHO'S THE PRESIDENT? WHO's the governor?
WHO's the vice president? What are you studying? What do
you want to do? What's the purpose of this? Why
are you doing do you understand the consequences of entering
(36:33):
into a contract and signing a mortgage and becoming obligated?
How are you going to make the payments? Things like that,
and how are you going to make the payments at
fourteen at least? The land back to my father. When
I met with Getner, I had already learned his great grandfather, Cecil,
and Cecil's two brothers, Fred, Getner and Jack. They had
(36:54):
all been guardians. Gettner told me he hadn't known that.
Before we talked, I brought with me some of the
archival records I found, including the Myron bings junior lawsuit.
I'm curious if the name myron banks Jr means anything
to you if you've heard it before. I've not heard
Myron BANGS UM, but I've heard of the I know
(37:16):
the banks family. Yes, how do you know them? I
just know the name. I know the one of the
O sage families. Looks like my great grandfather and his
two brothers were sued by the United States and I'm
unaware of this lawsuit. I told Getner I didn't expect
(37:37):
him to read the whole lawsuit while we were sitting
there during that first meeting. I mostly wanted to share
what I had learned so far. I also brought him
the note from Jack Drummond's records with that line about
the bill hall land. And then this is actually, Um,
a personal communication. Um, it says gettinger Drummond told a
(37:58):
a D Um, but it looks to me, and I
would be curious what you see from this, that Um
dollars was used from Myron bangs account for the Bill
Hale Land Um and I it says it was repaid.
So it just looks like it was borrowed from that account.
(38:21):
I'm curious. Did do you know where the bill hale
ranch was and how did you guys know that you
bought that ranch? Um? Now the Gantner referenced is Fred Getner,
and so he's not my direct lineage. So I don't
know the Bill Hale Land. I assume a D is
(38:42):
Alfred Alexander Drummond. It looks like basically somebody's notes Um
evolved multiple transactions. Yeah, the one, the one that stood
up to me was the second one, just given this lawsuit. Yeah,
Myron banks leadership, fifteen thousand used in payment of Bill
(39:02):
Hale Land. Yet it looks I mean it could be
that somebody was borrowing from the guard the wards account
to buy land and then pay it back and if
that was the case that would have been inappropriate. If
a guardian borrows money from awards account facially, that's inappropriate.
(39:29):
It's unethical and this instance it looks like it's in
it an accounting of hey, this was borrowed, it was
repaid and maybe back then it was permissible, but it's
not permissible today. So obviously I'm not expecting, you know,
like a statement on any of this. I want you
to have time and tell me what you see, because
(39:50):
I am not a lawyer, so I would love to
kind of care what you think of all this. But
have you heard any of this before? I mean, you
didn't know that Cecil or his brothers were guardians, right,
I did not. What what do you associate with the
Word Guardian? Well, there's a lot of good reasons for
guardianships and they're multiple guardianships in Os age county today. Um,
(40:17):
typically it's somebody who's infirm, either mentally or physically. There's
a frequent there's a lot of guardianships over physically infirmed people. Um,
a lot of voluntary guardianships. Now, back in the day,
(40:37):
back in the twenties and thirties and forties, the the
law looked on native Americans less favorably, as though they
were infirm, and the use of guardianships was more frequent
than than than it is today. And clearly, I think
in hindsight they were inappropriately used. Now, a lot of
these O s ages were not educated and didn't understand
(41:02):
the American way of business, and so guardianships were used
to protect them from unscrupulous actions. The lawsuit I brought
Gettner was nine pages and I brought some other documents too,
so I wanted to give him time to read all
of them before we talked again. But before I left
(41:23):
I asked gettner how he was feeling about all this.
Because ancestors guardianships, that they were named in this lawsuit.
Does it challenge what you've been told about your family? Oh,
I'm a realist. I mean we only pass along the
good stories. We don't pass along the bad stories, typically Um.
(41:44):
So it would not surprise me at all if there's
bad stories out there, but those would not have been
the subject matter of the family lure passed down. Do
you want to know those bad stories? I'm on notice
and I will inquire. Yes, I would like to know that,
so I'll look into it. Happy to visit with you
some more. Okay, just a second so you can hear me. Okay.
(42:20):
The next time I talked to Gettner was after he
had read through the myron banks junior lawsuit, the case
the federal government brought the Drummond Brothers response and then
the judge's order. So you said you had had a
chance to read through that. Yes, Rachel, I read the
litigation that you left me and I don't have it
in front of me. I'm in DC right now. But
(42:42):
I did read through the allegations about the government that
alleged that the drummonds acted inappropriately, malfeasant and the like.
But yet the court found that they were not malfees
into or exploitive of their roles. Is Guardian in trustee.
There's an order and the final adjudication that finds them
(43:06):
rules in favor of the drummonds and against the state,
the government. So I mean, I I mean certainly. I
mean if your agenda is let's make white people look bad,
then go for it. I mean I think you've got
all sorts of allegations and when you read the complaint
by the government, I was like, Oh my God, I
can't believe that my forebears were so horrible. But then
don't want to read their response, and then I see
(43:28):
the court's final adjudication and I'm like, well, okay, yeah,
they're guilty of being really good men that did the
right thing to help this woman. I mean, are you
interested in seeing some of these other I'm happy. I
mean listen, I'm I'm intelligially intrigued with the historical record
and and to the extent that my family was about actor.
(43:48):
I'd like to know that. I mean truly, I would
like to know that. Yeah, and I mean to be
to be totally transparent with you, like we've we've heard
from some people who have allegations against your family and
our job here is to see what's true and what's not.
I no, I mean did not mean. Well, I did
(44:12):
mean that. Didn't mean to push you gently in your chest,
because if your objective is simply just to paint all
why it's bad, then you're going to do that regardless
of my input. But if your objective is to parts
through the historical record that determine if there were bad actors,
and there certainly were, and if there were good actors,
and I believe there certainly were, and be fair to
(44:33):
the record, I'm I'm game to continue to participate and
look at documents and visit with you. I I am
the eldest of my generation. I am manifestly interested in
that historical record that you have spent significant effort to ascertain.
I've not gone to that effort that you have, but
I do think I mean to in defense of the system.
(44:56):
The Federal Judiciary also was not corrupt at the time
and the federal judiciary looked at this and there wasn't
it was acutely concerned about the exploitation of anybody white,
Brown or black and a guardianship capacity. So you know
the fact that the court, the Federal Court, said in
(45:17):
ruled in favor of the drummonds tells me that all
acts of the drummonds were appropriate. I mean the Department
of Interiors since acknowledged that the guardianship program was extraordinarily flawed. No, Oh,
I think that it was probably flawed. I mean the
whole system was flawed back in there. But you view
(45:39):
the federal government's role in this as found. I think
the federal government would have handed the my forebears heads
on a platter had to determine that they had embezzled
or misappropriated funds and and like. Do you have any
(46:01):
any qualms about benefiting from that system at all? I
mean the the guardianships and the executorship? I don't know
that I would say that I've benefited indirectly or directly
from any of those things. Why is that? I don't
see the I don't see any indirector direct benefit for
(46:22):
a getting or drum and benefited from the guardianship system.
I mean, what about the drum in land itself? Well,
that was purchased from natives and non natives, and if
it were from a native that was in a status
of incompetency, then it had pure Omanian affairs or its
predecessors approval. So if there are hard feelings today, then
(46:50):
it kind of lies at the feet of the federal government. Well,
of course there's gonna be hard feelings today because the
twenty one century host stage looks around and goes, why
do we only own six percent of our original landholdings?
And you know, the same could be say said of
(47:11):
the Carnegie Eras. Why are they not lavishly multimillionaires? Well,
something happened in between those four or five generations and
they've lost some of it. Not all rockefellers are multimillionaires
and there are some very well off hostages, but they
had to assimilate right, and that's anathema to a lot
(47:31):
of traditional low stages. They don't like that word. I
don't like assimilation. I mean, would would you like assimilation
if if that were your culture? Did? Came from Scotland
and Germany and we assimilated into the American way. But
isn't that the difference though? You guys came here, they
were already here. No, clearly, and now did that go
(47:54):
back to that Jackson Ian Genocide? It was forced assimilation.
But I think that there is a significant effort by
the government, which is of the people, of which I'm one,
that wants to recognize an honor and build up the
(48:14):
the heritage of the native Americans and Poma. I am
one of those. I'm a big proponent for that. I mean,
I get all the most ages agreeing with you, but
you can talk to the choctaws and the chickasaws and
Cherokees with whom I work a weekly basis. I asked
Gettner again, what do you thought about one of the
other documents I left him, that memo from Jack Drummond
(48:36):
with the one line that seemed to say the Drummond
brothers borrowed money from Iron Banks Jr to buy the
Bill Hale Land. I mean, I read those notes, but
I mean I'm a trained litigator and you know, seeing
disparate notes without getting testimony or other sources. I mean
you can read it either way. And so he does
(48:56):
have notes and they do appear cryptic. I mean it
was hard to follow exactly what is doing. And I
mean and are there terms of art being used or
these uh shorthand for other terms? You know, it was
I didn't put a lot of stock in the notes
that were transcribed by Jack Drummond. Since that conversation, Getner
(49:19):
has won the Republican nomination for Attorney General. His only
challenger in the general election is Libertarian Linda Steel. I've
also continued to send documents to Gettner. He said he's
proud of his family history and not from what he
can tell, they did what they could help o St
Ages and the ways that were available at the time.
(49:52):
There was one other document I shared with Gettner, written
by someone within the federal government back then who was
concerned that the Drummond there's might be abusing their power,
and not just in Myron banks Jr's case. His name
was Lewis Divers. He was the tribal attorney for the
O S age nation in the thirties. This was a
u s government position meant to look out for O
(50:14):
s age legal interests, and in this letter he objects
to Fred getner becoming the executor of yet another O
s ages state. Stiver says the will in this case
is valid. That's not why he was objecting. stivers was
objecting because of the person named as executor. He said
Fred Getner and his brothers were part of a quote association.
(50:38):
According to stivers, it worked like this. Along with at
least five other white men in O s age county,
the Drummond brothers would use their positions as guardians and
administrators to extend each other loans from their os age
towards accounts and to prove each other's claims against Oth
age estates. STIVER's enlists a series of examples where he
(50:58):
saw this play out, including one of Fred l shed's
guardianships and the drummonds guardianship of myron banks Jr, cases
where I could see firsthand how the Drummond brothers made
o s age money work for themselves. But there were
other names in this letter from stivers that I hadn't
seen yet, and when I started looking into what happened
(51:19):
with those O s age families. I found a story
that took me beyond deeds and mortgages, a story that
I had hoped I wouldn't run into. That's next time
on in trust. In trust is a production of Bloomberg
(51:43):
and I heeart media. It's reported and hosted by me
Rachel Adam's heard additional reporting by Alison Eda. Davis land
is our senior producer. Samantha story is our executive producer.
Jeff Grocott is our senior editor. Additional editing by Francesco
leavy and Daniel Ferrara. Additional production by Victor Ebayez, production
(52:07):
support from Jelda de Carli, sound engineering by Blake Maples,
fact checking by Molly nugent. Theme Music by Laura Orman.
Photography by Shane Brown. You can email us at podcasts
at Bloomberg Dot net. Find more about this episode at
Bloomberg Dot Com. Slash in trust. Find intrust anywhere you
(52:29):
get your podcasts.
Got You. Speaker. Um. I have a young woman here
and she is doing a story. Last time I was
in Pahasca I met a woman named Billy Panka. I
had heard of billy. She used to work at the
white hair memorial, the osage research and learning center, and
while we were talking I told Billy I was trying
to find someone who knew an o s age man
(00:22):
named Myron Banks Jr. Billy hopped on the phone, started
calling friends relatives, and his name was Lauren Banks B
A N G S and he sued his Guardian. I
was curious about Myron because the Drummond brothers were his guardians,
some of the white men the US government had put
(00:44):
in charge of the finances of o s ages and
other native Americans. In total, the three Drummond brothers were
guardians to at least ten o s ages, children and
adults in the United States. Sued them over how they
handled my affairs. Yeah, they've never heard of him. Okay,
all right, and handld spread the word. I need to
(01:07):
know who he is. Of course he used to Safetan
gons for quite some time. I found the lawsuit in
the National Archives. My Iron had commissioned a private audit
(01:30):
on his accounts and sent what he learned to the government.
He left behind a ton of documents with his lawyer
other than Myron Byan's juniors records. There isn't a whole
lot in the archives about the Drummond brothers guardianships. The
official records are under seal in the O s age
county courthouse. So this is one of the most complete
looks inside a guardianship that I've seen. When I've asked
(01:53):
members of the Drummond family today about the three brothers,
Fred Gettner, Cecil and Jack and whether any of knew
anything about their guardianships, the either told me they didn't
know the brothers were guardians or, if they did, they
had always heard it was because their ancestors were trustworthy.
There's a moment in the tapes with Jack Drummond and
(02:16):
his biographer, Terry, where Jack brings up guardianships. It's in
the middle of an unrelated conversation. Actor Terry asked Jack
about his relationship with his brothers. You seem too, as
a boy, have been a friend with your sil then
with them with Gantner. Is that so? Would that be true? Yes, Gattner,
(02:39):
see gettner was always jealous macy from them news. To
be safe, he's griping about his brother Fred ginner again. Remember,
Jack was mad he didn't get that bonus after he
made a huge profit at the store. He was also
mad his brother ended up with control of the store
once their dad died. Jack Las All this out to Terry,
(03:02):
all his frustrations with Fred Gettner. Then he says I
wouldn't want this said. Are repeated and never bring out
in in in anything. You right, but getting with a hipocrap.
He was very selfish and he was the administrator of
(03:24):
my fathers, the state, and somehow he ended up with
the began thom. Of course, he said, that's him shared.
But then he dealt with the Indians. Of course he
made a lot of money off the Indians and he
was administrator of the states and he was he was
(03:45):
guardian for several Indian to handle all our money and
all the money never passed through getting Roman's hands. Some
of it stuck to him, uh, stuck to hit hand,
stuck to his hands. Jack seemed to say his brother
(04:08):
Fred Getner had been up to something, and what I
learned from Iron Banks Jr was that Jack Wasn't alone
in thinking so. One of Fred Getner's boards thought so too,
and at one point so did the United States government.
This isn't trust. I'm Rachel Adams hurt. Myron banks junior's
(04:39):
lawsuit was filed in the nineteen forties, but to understand
what led to it you have to know that the
Drummond's involvement with his family starts way earlier, back when
Myron was a baby. Not long after the nineteen of
six a lotment. Myron was born just a little too
late to have a head right in his name. His mother,
father and older brother got them, as well as land.
(05:01):
But right after the Allotment Act Myron's father, Myron being senior,
and his infant brother Percy both died. Myron's mom, Lucy,
was left to raise him on her own. Frederick Drummond,
the Scottish immigrant who ran the store, he handled myron
senior in Percy's estates, which passed their land and head
(05:21):
rights to Myron Jr and Lucy. This made them both
incredibly wealthy. But when Myron was twelve years old, his
mom became sick. The records say she had tuberculosis and
all of a sudden, a lot of men became very
interested in her affairs. There was a man named Robert
(05:45):
White Cloud, who married Lucy right when her health took
a turn. Not long after, she went to New Mexico,
hoping the dry air would help her symptoms. That's when
a second man took an interest. His name was bright roddy.
He followed her to New Mexico, all the way from Pahaska.
He wanted to write her will. By February, lucy was
(06:10):
back in harmony. That's when a third man got involved.
It was another Drummond, Fred Getner, who by now had
taken over the store. He wanted to write lucy a
different will. According to probate testimony, Fred getner visited her
every day while she was so sick she couldn't get
out of bed. Lucy died a few weeks later, on February,
(06:38):
at just thirteen years old. Myron had lost his entire family.
The homony trading company was Lucy's undertaker, just like it
was for a lot of other o sages who lived
in Hominy, and Fred getner became executor of her will,
(06:59):
the one he wrote for her. Three estates, myron seniors,
Percy's and Lucy's all handled by the drummonds and then
a guardianship of myron banks Jr. He was orphaned and
all his folks and his grandfather, grandmother, his mother and
his dad, aunt and uncle whatever, they all died and
that's why he came into all that money. This is Myron,
(07:22):
Read Eagle. His name was on a Business Card Billy
Panka gave me when she was trying to help me
track down someone who knew myron banks Jr, my cousin
Openmar Banks Jr. I live here in Pahaska. Myron's on
the O sage Minerals Council, the elected officials who oversee
the O stage mineral estate. When I sat in that
(07:42):
big room with Everett Waller asking about non Os age
head right holders, I was just inches away from where
Myron sits whenever there's a meeting. I think that Nabe
after him because I kind of looked lacking. That's what
my mom used to say. It looks like brother Mayron,
she used to say. So this is a picture I
found of him at Um the Oklahoma historical society. Yeah,
that's hiamh. Yeah, do you think? Do you think you
(08:04):
look like him? Yeah, the way I do. Yeah, what
features do you see? Probably a small yeah, for what
it's worth, I see it too. Myron read Eagle has
a big smile. I thought a lot as he told
me about his cousin. He don't give me a dollar
every time he came to the e. You just give
everybody a dollar and they were silver dollars in those days.
(08:26):
You know, by the time Myron Read Eagle met myron
Banks Jr, Myron bigs junior was in his forties. He
had airplanes. He could fly airplanes. He was smart, he
wouldn't they were no dumb guy, you know, he knew
how to fly a plane. I don't know what the
restrictions for on those days, but he had his own plane.
There was a story about it. In those days they
had what they call feast, big feast, you know, and
(08:49):
they had to start a fire but they couldn't get
it started and uncle Martin flew into the field. They
came in there and they said what's going on? You know,
they were all talking oak stage and they were trying
to start this far. You know, you give me that
thing and he grabbed grabbed one and he stuck. At
one time got a spark got started just like yeah,
and he said, okay, I want to go back to Talso,
(09:10):
I'll be back later. He got into you got the
fire started. I gotta kick out that. The Drummond Brothers
guardianship of myron banks Jr started when he was just
a child, but it lasted well into his adulthood because
even though he was educated, could fly an airplane served
(09:31):
in the army, the US government considered him incompetent. He
said he couldn't control his own money and kept the
drummond brothers in charge instead. A lot of myron's personal
records are in an archive in Oklahoma City at the
Oklahoma historical society. There are boxes of old handwritten letters,
postcards and telegrams from Myron's travels, his honorable discharge from
(09:54):
the army. Even an old date book of his Maroon
embossed with junior on the front, old the week he
got married, is full of reminders to pick up pants
from the dry cleaner and check in about the marriage license.
Looking at all this, I felt like I got a
little peek into what Myron might have been like as
a person. Intelligent, persistent, a bit sarcastic at times and later,
(10:17):
when he became a husband and father, doting and pretty religious.
In that archive there are also boxes and boxes of
legal records, because this collection belonged to Myron's lawyer, a
man named Paul Comstock, and when I met with Myron
Read Eagle, I showed some of these records to him.
They're old, some handwritten, kind of hard to read. We
(10:41):
have had so much trouble with our guardians that we
do not want to at least and to either his
or or any of his employees. This is a letter
Myron bings Jr wrote directly to the Commissioner of Indian affairs,
the head of the whole agency, right before he hired
(11:01):
Paul Comstock. He was in his twenties and Myron he
had a few choice words for the US government about
his guardian, Fred Ghetner Drummond. He titles the letter one
example in the Os age and then starts describing exactly
the kind of scheme you might find in the gray book,
that report from the fifties that listed so many guardianships
(11:22):
gone wrong. Myron said Fred Getner was leasing his land
to Horace Burkhart, a nephew of William Hale, the one
allegedly behind a lot of the murders during the reign
of terror. But myron said Horace wasn't actually using the land.
Fred Getner was, and according to this letter, Fred Getner
was trying to discount the rent for himself and charge
(11:44):
Myron for a barn and offense that he had put up.
Myron told the commissioner that Fred Getner was perfectly capable
of paying the full price. He ran the hominy trading company,
after all. Myron wrote stand incognito in his place of
business for one were and ascertained the prices that he
charges the Indians. I remember mom saying a lot of
(12:05):
time he was always fighting for against the system. You know,
that's what it was right there. It's always fight, trying
to get something going. He he had sound enough evidence
to do it. You know, according to that he was
trying to get everybody's attention. Evidently, you know, he wasn't
the only one. There was a lot of people in
that same situation. Myron Jr said he had written to
(12:29):
the O s age agency and PAASCA that oversaw guardianships.
They apparently didn't do much. He was fed up. He
wanted someone, anyone in the US government to care in
other words, they went along with the Guardian. You know,
that's what they did. They didn't. They didn't really take
up for Uncle Maron. They just passed the buck and
give it to them. Let's say get the Guardian makes
(12:49):
the decision, and if he makes the decision, they're noting
uncle American. So myron was complaining to the agency about
his guardian and the agency was telling him to go
back to his guardian with his complaints. Yeah, yeah, exactly
what it raged. Okay, no, Mr Springer tries to discourage
us and taking an interest in our affair. Mr Dabble
(13:11):
or dibble or whatever it is, is the only one
in a Plaska to see that seems to take any
interest in our affairs, and it's hard to read him. Yeah, sorry,
this one is tough. Yeah, I mean, did you see
the point though? And it's crooked. Even the agency was
crooked reopening in affairs. They were crooked. They didn't want
(13:34):
to mess with it. They knew that the Guardian would
get whatever we wanted and went along with it. In
this letter that Myron sent to the Commissioner of Indian affairs,
he says we are writing to you personally because we
cannot get action elsewhere. A couple of weeks later Myron
wrote the O C age agency again. He said he
(13:55):
wanted his guardian removed, that he preferred the agency have
control of his finance. Says not, Fred Getner. And yet,
as far as I could tell, the office of Indian
affairs didn't step in. So myron took matters into his
own hands. He hired comstock at the end of n
four and a few months later Fred getner resigned as
his guardian. Myron and comstock had enlisted a team of
(14:19):
accountants in Tulsa to conduct an audit of his account
the accountants came back with a five page report. The
word confidential is written on the front. They offer a
disclaimer of sorts at the beginning. They say there wasn't
(14:41):
any standard way that guardians submitted receipts, so it would
have been, quote, almost impossible for the US government to
conduct any sort of accurate review of how the Drummond
brothers were handling Myron's money. But even without a lot
of those receipts, the auditors filled five pages with discrepancies.
Were issues they found after coming through Myron's affairs. According
(15:04):
to this, Fred Getner was leasing out land that Myron
wasn't getting paid for and he was making loans to
people from Myron's funds that were in default for years
before Fred Getner did anything about it. Another example stood
out to me. Fred Getner Drummond apparently sold some of
Myron's property to a man named you Nelson. He Got
(15:24):
Myron a thousand dollars for the land, but a few
months later Fred getner about the same piece of land back,
paying seven thousand dollars of Myron's money. According to the audit,
Myron was left with the same piece of land, but
he was out six thousand dollars. It's only after the
audit myron commissioned that the federal government took an interest
(15:44):
in his complaints. A U S attorney used one of
the examples in the report and sued the drummonds in
the lawsuit is filed in federal court in the northern
district of Oklahoma, the United States of America, versus Fred
G Drummond, R C Drummond and Alfred a drummond. I
showed it to Myron ready. Goal R C Drummond, a
(16:06):
guardian of the said Mayron banks junior and Fred g
drummond conspired in the devised a scheme. Due to Aud
the said moner banks junior in the following manner. The
case names all three brothers because, even though Fred Getner
was calling all the shots, Cecil was the one who
is technically listed as Myron's guardian. Jack Drummond was involved
(16:27):
to in order to be a guardian, you needed a
surety bond, basically a promise from someone else that if
you didn't act in the best interests of your reward
or took advantage of your position, they'd be on the
hook to a lot of times these bonds came from banks,
but in Myron Junior's guardianship the bond was issued by
Jack Drummond. So all three brothers had a hand in
(16:50):
controlling myron junior's affairs and all three brothers were sued
by the federal government. Out of everything in the audit,
the US focused on one specific land dispute from when
Myron Junior was thirteen, when Lucy banks died, Fred Getner,
who was acting as myron junior's guardian, transferred a piece
(17:10):
of land into Myron Junior's name. He paid himself three
thousand seven hundred thirty two dollars and ninety nine cents
from my iron's account. The US thought this transaction showed
fraud because what the auditors found was the Land Fred
Getner sold to Myron Junior. It already belonged to Myron Junior.
It was Lucy's and when she died it passed to
(17:32):
Myron Jr. The US was arguing there was no reason
for Fred Getner to sell it him. It's further lands.
R C Drummond, the guardian of this ward, had allowed
to said Fred G Drummond to draw and checks upon
the funds of Said Ward, to incur claims against this
ward and generally assumed in conduct the affairs and official
(17:52):
authority of such guardianship, without authority of law and contrary
to the statutes of Oklahoma. Yeah, that was illegal. He
didn't do that. The Drummond brothers had a drastically different
version of events, one a federal judge agreed with. They
argued that this was all part of a well orchestrated plan,
(18:12):
a plan lucy was in on. According to the brothers,
they were just trying to keep Lucy's husband of less
than a year, Robert White Cloud, from getting her land
after she died and the three thousand seven hundred thirty
two dollars and ninety nine cents that Fred Getner paid
himself for my iron junior's account. That was just to
cover a debt Lucy owed him from before she died.
(18:36):
The judge who presided over this case was actually the
same one who gave William Hale a life sentence, judge Kennemer,
and what Kennemer said in his order in this case
was that there wasn't any evidence the drummonds cheated or
defrauded Myron bings Jr. He said the Drummond brothers had
in fact helped Myron by getting him land that he
would have had to share with Robert White Cloud. The
(18:58):
money Fred Getner paid himself was a quote, irregular way
to settle a debt, Kinnamer wrote, but Fred Getner was
just acting in accordance with Lucy's will, the one Fred
Getner wrote and executed. Judge Kinnamer said the county court
had signed off on all this and the superintendent of
the O s age agency had full knowledge of it.
(19:19):
I'm not sure why the US didn't include any of
the other transactions that came up in the audit myron commissioned.
Maybe Fred Getner had information that explained a lot of
the questionable transactions. When Fred Getner resigned, Paul compstock filed
a bunch of objections to the Guardians Final Report. The
County Corps overruled those objections and the stage agency signed
(19:41):
off on it. But I'm not sure the auditors found everything,
because while I was going through Jack Drummond's financial records
I found something else. This one's kind of interesting. This
was actually part of the Drummond's personal collection. In yeah,
(20:01):
this piece of paper is unlike a lot of the
other records in Jack Drummond's collection. Most of those were
formal written to business colleagues or bankers, but this one
it's written more like notes from a conversation between two brothers.
The top says getting her Drummond told a, a d,
The initials for Jack's given name, Alfred Alexander. Below it
(20:24):
there's a list numbered one through ten, each a description
of some sort of transaction. It's number two, the one
about May and banks, G D N And Guardian. Guardian.
Fifteen thousand views in payment Bill Hill Land, repaid by a,
a and D. Jack writes myron banks Guardian. Fifteen thousand
(20:47):
dollars used in payment Bill Hale Land, repaid by a
a D fifteen thousand dollars that the drummonds borrowed from
Iron Banks Jr to buy Bill Hale's land, land that
belonged to the mastermind of the O s age murders,
land he sold before he went to prison. I had
read in Jack's biography that the drummonds bought Bill Hale's ranch.
(21:11):
It was that single reference to the reign of terror.
It read Bill Hale, a local rancher, had to sell
his land because he was going to prison for conspiring
to murder most of an O s age Indian family
so their head rights would evolve to his nephew. Despite
the auditors and the lawyers, no one ever noticed that
the drummonds seemed to have bought this land with Myron's money,
(21:34):
or if they did, they never said anything. This note
was the first I had seen of it. When the
DRUMMONDS bought Bill Hale's land in x Myron bangs was
eighteen years old. Part of the land included three hundred
fifteen acres that hale had gotten from an o sage
man named George Bigheart. Five years before bigheart mysteriously died
(21:56):
in what is now one of the most well known
examples of an unsolved order during the reign of terror.
And what this note written by Jack seemed to say
was that O s age money, Myron's money, helped the
drummonds buy it from Hale. I've looked into what happened
to this land after the drummonds bought it. It turns
out a lot of the bill hall ranch they bought
(22:17):
in partnership with another big ranching family in Osage County,
the mullandors. Eventually the Drummond brothers sold their interests in
the land to the mullandors. Today it's owned by a
bunch of different people and ranching incorporations, including one affiliated
with the Mormon Church. By the time Fred Genner resigned
(22:48):
as his guardian on January three, Myron Banks Jr was
twenty eight years old. He had spent most of his
life under the drummonds financial control, and that whole time
Fred Getner was collecting a fee for doing it, more
than fifteen thousand dollars over the course of Myron's guardianship,
(23:09):
something like a quarter million dollars in today's money. In
y eight, after more than two decades of O s
age guardianships like Myron Juniors, the acting secretary of Interior
sent a letter to the head of the OS age agency.
(23:30):
He said a series of audits the government had conducted
on O s age guardianships showed that many of these
guardians were profiting directly or indirectly off their wards. He
wrote that it was a generally accepted rule of law
that guardians shouldn't have business dealings with their awards, that
it was against public policy. He told the superintendent to
(23:50):
make a copy of the letter and send it to
all the existing guardians and their lawyers. Meanwhile, Myron wasn't
stopping at his own guardians. In nineteen thirty nine, he
wrote a letter to Paul Comstock asking for his help
with a young o sage man named Otis Penn. Myron
(24:12):
said he told Otis about Paul Honesty and ability to
help him in the past. According to Myron, Otis wanted
an audit of his account. He didn't know who was
leasing his land where his money was being invested. Myron
thought Paul Comstock would be able to help him out.
After reading this letter, I looked into Otis Penn's guardianship.
(24:34):
Otis was an orphan too. He had been under guardianship
since he was just a kid. Just like Myron. His
Guardian was Fred l shed, the man who worked in
the Drummond store. At one point Fred l shed was
leasing Otis's land to Cecil, Drummond and Hugh Nelson, the
same Hugh Nelson who had bought and sold Myron's land
(24:55):
through Fred Gentner and apparently made six thousand dollars. So
you Nelson was also in business with the DRUMMONDS, leasing
land and partnership with Cecil through Fred l shed. At
one point, it seems Cecil and Hugh Nelson weren't paying rent.
In n the Department of Interior threatened to sue them
if they didn't pay two hundred dollars in rent on
(25:16):
six hundred forty acres of Otis's land they were leasing.
And just like Fred Getner loaned out myron's money, Fred
l shed loan money from Otis Pen's account. He lent
Cecil Drummond six thousand dollars. All these records revealed so
much about the inner workings of an O s age guardianship.
And it was all because one os age man, Myron
(25:39):
Baines Jr, hired a lawyer, he trusted, a lawyer who
kept his files and donated them so that decades later,
we can see what one of these guardianships really looked like.
They knew how to get around people, you know, and
I'm not saying the off ring are that way, but
they managed to buy the land and there. Now they
weren't telling you what. There were other people that bought
(25:59):
land into you know, but the drums just had to
be the one family that they got the most of it,
and our people were. They weren't dumb, you know, they
weren't ignorant at all, but things like it went on.
It was beyond their control. Everything that happened between Myron
bangs and the Drummond brothers was because the United States
considered myron incompetent, even though he had his pilot's license,
(26:23):
he was formally educated. He was writing letters to federal
officials at the Department of Interior begging them to look
into his guardianship. In one note, scrawled and Pencil, Paul
Comstock wrote to someone. If you considered Myron so childish
and incompetent, why did you write him those comprehensive and
detailed letters which are in evidence. M M M M M,
(26:54):
m HM, M hmm. It's kind of an irony about it,
the drum harmony. We're kind of like. Uh, if if
an ending end in person or stage ending needed money,
(27:18):
they were always there to give it to him. You know,
they always had money. And if they needed credit at
the store, you know, the partneer store, whatever, whatever they
owned down here, they would give them credit and uh,
and then they just thought they were good people, you know,
as Myron ready equal, and I looked over these documents,
myron told me this wasn't the only time his family
(27:39):
had crossed paths with the Drummond brothers. Sometime in the
fifties his mom wanted to buy a house in Pasca.
It's actually the one myron lives in today. My mom
had a little bit of land left and they had
wanted to move up here because he had to drive
back and forth to Pascal all the time, you know,
sign things, and she said I'll just a little bit
(28:00):
land and and see if we can find a house
in Pasca. So they weren't looking for a home and
they found one out here and so she went to
season Drummond, the old man, he's a real big guy.
But they I walked in and they all walked in
and he said, Veril Virgie, what do you want? What
do you want? You know, and it's just see's a lot.
I got a house and they have a house in Pahuska.
(28:20):
I'd like to have it, you know. He said, well,
what do you got? He said Yeah, he had about
forty acres over here, across the road. He said, all right,
you give me that land, I'll buy that house. That's
how we're to trade it. So and it was an auction.
So there's about four or five different families were wanting
at home and they started that at five thousand dollars,
(28:42):
and there was a lot of money in the fifties,
you know. Hu and they went up to six thousand
and Mr Drummond raised he had big cowboy had on.
He raised his hand. Six thousand, seventh island, he raised
his hand. He just kept going up. You know, they
couldn't that did him. You know, he wanted that forty
acres and he said whatever you you should Birdie, whatever
you want, I'll get it for you. He out bit
(29:03):
everybody and I still live in that house today. Do
you ever wish you had lapa? No, no, it's it's gone.
It's gone. They don't sell their lamb. As myron and
I spoke, we talked about members of the Drummond family today,
the descendants of Cecil and Fred Gentner, and Jack Iron
(29:24):
told me he knows a few of them, gets along
with some of them. Yeah, they're there's just a big family.
It's a big family. Times change, you know, to be
there as it may. It's like a phrase says, you know,
we can't do nothing about the past. You know that
the past is gone. What happened then and it's all
in the past. You know, it's just too bad that
it happened away. It's kind of it kind of hurss
(29:46):
me in a way, but I don't think it urked
me as much as it did my folks. You know,
and and other people that that generation. The grass is
so pretty, like how the gold contrast with the Blue Guy.
(30:07):
Even after Myron spent years fighting the DRUMMONDS, a lot
of his lands still ended up in their hands. A
non O sage wife of one of Myron's relatives inherited
some land after he died in the eighties. She sold
it to a drummond. This section I drove out to.
It's part of the eighty acres of Percy's land now
owned by Drummond Ranch LLC. So this is Percy bangs
(30:32):
original allotment. Today it's owned by Drummond Ranch LLC and
that Drummond entity is owned by getting her Drummond, and
he is the one who's running for Oklahoma Attorney General.
So this is all his ranch now. It's a very
(30:53):
large ranch, much larger than just Percy's original. All that.
We'll be right back. Good Morning. I help you. Um.
(31:24):
We're with Bloomberg. We have an interview with Gettner Grummond. Yes,
you will go on in the boardroom. I went to
interview getting her last January. At that point I was
just beginning to put together what these records all meant.
No one from back then is still alive today, but
I was curious what their descendants thought of all this,
if they had any other information that I wasn't finding
(31:45):
in the archives. Good Morning. Hi, I'm Rachel. Getting her
owns Blue Skye Bank and several US cellular stores. He
still owns the pioneer store building in hominy. He's been
practicing law in and around Os age county for a
long time. When we talked getting her how ton't get
(32:05):
one the Republican primary for Attorney General. So talk to
me about the attorney general race. Why? Why are you running? Well, Um,
when I was about twelve, my great grandfather sat me
down and said you're the oldest of sixty five of
my great grandchildren and none of them are going to
(32:29):
do more than you. You'RE gonna you're the oldest and
so you need to just aim as high as you
can and be as straight as you can and be
as successful as you can. And I think it's appropriate
that when your family has grown, that you serve in
state government. It wasn't lost on me as a twelve
year old, I mean I was. I took very serious
(32:50):
my role as the oldest of that generation and the
leader of my clan. And then now my children are
all grown and established in the communities that they live
and have the time and the opportunity to run for
a statewide office. And that was Cecil who told you this.
So do you remember, like where that conversation was? We
were driving in his car. Um He drove at that
(33:13):
at that point in his life, he would drive around
the county all day long checking on his sons and
grandsons operations and his brothers and cousins operations, and he
loved to drive into his big cadillac and smoke a
cigar and he liked company. I think that day I
was driving him and yes, at twelve I was driving
(33:36):
him around the county and he was telling me, as
we were passing pastures, the heritage of the land, who
owned it and and when we purchased it, and then
talking about my role as the family, the eldest of
the family. Do you think about that conversation often? A
lot of the conversations from parents, grandparents great grandparents have
(33:57):
been very impactful on me. One of the things gettinger's
run on is a commitment to work more with tribal
nations in Oklahoma. He talked about that when we met
our governor, for some reason just can't see it in
himself to act rationally, and so he's driven a wedge
between the native American tribes and the State of Oklahoma
and I can, I think that I can undo that.
(34:19):
I'm respectful of their sovereignty and can foster our relationship
such that we can figure our way forward gettner also
holds the title to about twenty six thousand acres of
ranch land in Oth Age county, more than anyone else
in the extended Drummond family. The base of my cattle ranch,
(34:41):
Cecil purchased was passed down to my grandfather, Ghent ghet
nerve drummond. He has some of that original land and
some of that was passed to my father, Leslie, and
then some of that was passed down in my instance.
I did not take any inheritance from anyone. I bought
(35:01):
all of my land from siblings and mother neighbors. So when,
when did you personally first get involved in ranching and
what led you there? It's an interesting segue into your
question because a native, a neighbor of our ranch who
was also a native American Um liked me and I
(35:26):
didn't necessarily like my father, but as a fourteen year
old she approached me to acquire her ranch and I
was fourteen and had no money and it was a
minor and she arranged for me to become emancipated and
in her into contract to buy her are ranch. So
that's when I began as a landowner in the o
(35:49):
sage and effectively a rancher. And why did you have
to become emancipated? Because you can't enter into a contract
until you're eighteen. You're not an adult until you're eighteen.
So for a fourteen year old to enter into a
contract I had to go to court. The court had
to deem the competent to become emancipated to enter into
the transaction. I can remember it clearly. The judge called
(36:10):
me back into his chambers with my attorney and asked
me many questions that judges now, I realized as a lawyer,
asked a determined competency. You know, where were you born?
Where do you live? WHO'S THE PRESIDENT? WHO's the governor?
WHO's the vice president? What are you studying? What do
you want to do? What's the purpose of this? Why
are you doing do you understand the consequences of entering
(36:33):
into a contract and signing a mortgage and becoming obligated?
How are you going to make the payments? Things like that,
and how are you going to make the payments at
fourteen at least? The land back to my father. When
I met with Getner, I had already learned his great grandfather, Cecil,
and Cecil's two brothers, Fred, Getner and Jack. They had
(36:54):
all been guardians. Gettner told me he hadn't known that.
Before we talked, I brought with me some of the
archival records I found, including the Myron bings junior lawsuit.
I'm curious if the name myron banks Jr means anything
to you if you've heard it before. I've not heard
Myron BANGS UM, but I've heard of the I know
(37:16):
the banks family. Yes, how do you know them? I
just know the name. I know the one of the
O sage families. Looks like my great grandfather and his
two brothers were sued by the United States and I'm
unaware of this lawsuit. I told Getner I didn't expect
(37:37):
him to read the whole lawsuit while we were sitting
there during that first meeting. I mostly wanted to share
what I had learned so far. I also brought him
the note from Jack Drummond's records with that line about
the bill hall land. And then this is actually, Um,
a personal communication. Um, it says gettinger Drummond told a
(37:58):
a D Um, but it looks to me, and I
would be curious what you see from this, that Um
dollars was used from Myron bangs account for the Bill
Hale Land Um and I it says it was repaid.
So it just looks like it was borrowed from that account.
(38:21):
I'm curious. Did do you know where the bill hale
ranch was and how did you guys know that you
bought that ranch? Um? Now the Gantner referenced is Fred Getner,
and so he's not my direct lineage. So I don't
know the Bill Hale Land. I assume a D is
(38:42):
Alfred Alexander Drummond. It looks like basically somebody's notes Um
evolved multiple transactions. Yeah, the one, the one that stood
up to me was the second one, just given this lawsuit. Yeah,
Myron banks leadership, fifteen thousand used in payment of Bill
(39:02):
Hale Land. Yet it looks I mean it could be
that somebody was borrowing from the guard the wards account
to buy land and then pay it back and if
that was the case that would have been inappropriate. If
a guardian borrows money from awards account facially, that's inappropriate.
(39:29):
It's unethical and this instance it looks like it's in
it an accounting of hey, this was borrowed, it was
repaid and maybe back then it was permissible, but it's
not permissible today. So obviously I'm not expecting, you know,
like a statement on any of this. I want you
to have time and tell me what you see, because
(39:50):
I am not a lawyer, so I would love to
kind of care what you think of all this. But
have you heard any of this before? I mean, you
didn't know that Cecil or his brothers were guardians, right,
I did not. What what do you associate with the
Word Guardian? Well, there's a lot of good reasons for
guardianships and they're multiple guardianships in Os age county today. Um,
(40:17):
typically it's somebody who's infirm, either mentally or physically. There's
a frequent there's a lot of guardianships over physically infirmed people. Um,
a lot of voluntary guardianships. Now, back in the day,
(40:37):
back in the twenties and thirties and forties, the the
law looked on native Americans less favorably, as though they
were infirm, and the use of guardianships was more frequent
than than than it is today. And clearly, I think
in hindsight they were inappropriately used. Now, a lot of
these O s ages were not educated and didn't understand
(41:02):
the American way of business, and so guardianships were used
to protect them from unscrupulous actions. The lawsuit I brought
Gettner was nine pages and I brought some other documents too,
so I wanted to give him time to read all
of them before we talked again. But before I left
(41:23):
I asked gettner how he was feeling about all this.
Because ancestors guardianships, that they were named in this lawsuit.
Does it challenge what you've been told about your family? Oh,
I'm a realist. I mean we only pass along the
good stories. We don't pass along the bad stories, typically Um.
(41:44):
So it would not surprise me at all if there's
bad stories out there, but those would not have been
the subject matter of the family lure passed down. Do
you want to know those bad stories? I'm on notice
and I will inquire. Yes, I would like to know that,
so I'll look into it. Happy to visit with you
some more. Okay, just a second so you can hear me. Okay.
(42:20):
The next time I talked to Gettner was after he
had read through the myron banks junior lawsuit, the case
the federal government brought the Drummond Brothers response and then
the judge's order. So you said you had had a
chance to read through that. Yes, Rachel, I read the
litigation that you left me and I don't have it
in front of me. I'm in DC right now. But
(42:42):
I did read through the allegations about the government that
alleged that the drummonds acted inappropriately, malfeasant and the like.
But yet the court found that they were not malfees
into or exploitive of their roles. Is Guardian in trustee.
There's an order and the final adjudication that finds them
(43:06):
rules in favor of the drummonds and against the state,
the government. So I mean, I I mean certainly. I
mean if your agenda is let's make white people look bad,
then go for it. I mean I think you've got
all sorts of allegations and when you read the complaint
by the government, I was like, Oh my God, I
can't believe that my forebears were so horrible. But then
don't want to read their response, and then I see
(43:28):
the court's final adjudication and I'm like, well, okay, yeah,
they're guilty of being really good men that did the
right thing to help this woman. I mean, are you
interested in seeing some of these other I'm happy. I
mean listen, I'm I'm intelligially intrigued with the historical record
and and to the extent that my family was about actor.
(43:48):
I'd like to know that. I mean truly, I would
like to know that. Yeah, and I mean to be
to be totally transparent with you, like we've we've heard
from some people who have allegations against your family and
our job here is to see what's true and what's not.
I no, I mean did not mean. Well, I did
(44:12):
mean that. Didn't mean to push you gently in your chest,
because if your objective is simply just to paint all
why it's bad, then you're going to do that regardless
of my input. But if your objective is to parts
through the historical record that determine if there were bad actors,
and there certainly were, and if there were good actors,
and I believe there certainly were, and be fair to
(44:33):
the record, I'm I'm game to continue to participate and
look at documents and visit with you. I I am
the eldest of my generation. I am manifestly interested in
that historical record that you have spent significant effort to ascertain.
I've not gone to that effort that you have, but
I do think I mean to in defense of the system.
(44:56):
The Federal Judiciary also was not corrupt at the time
and the federal judiciary looked at this and there wasn't
it was acutely concerned about the exploitation of anybody white,
Brown or black and a guardianship capacity. So you know
the fact that the court, the Federal Court, said in
(45:17):
ruled in favor of the drummonds tells me that all
acts of the drummonds were appropriate. I mean the Department
of Interiors since acknowledged that the guardianship program was extraordinarily flawed. No, Oh,
I think that it was probably flawed. I mean the
whole system was flawed back in there. But you view
(45:39):
the federal government's role in this as found. I think
the federal government would have handed the my forebears heads
on a platter had to determine that they had embezzled
or misappropriated funds and and like. Do you have any
(46:01):
any qualms about benefiting from that system at all? I
mean the the guardianships and the executorship? I don't know
that I would say that I've benefited indirectly or directly
from any of those things. Why is that? I don't
see the I don't see any indirector direct benefit for
(46:22):
a getting or drum and benefited from the guardianship system.
I mean, what about the drum in land itself? Well,
that was purchased from natives and non natives, and if
it were from a native that was in a status
of incompetency, then it had pure Omanian affairs or its
predecessors approval. So if there are hard feelings today, then
(46:50):
it kind of lies at the feet of the federal government. Well,
of course there's gonna be hard feelings today because the
twenty one century host stage looks around and goes, why
do we only own six percent of our original landholdings?
And you know, the same could be say said of
(47:11):
the Carnegie Eras. Why are they not lavishly multimillionaires? Well,
something happened in between those four or five generations and
they've lost some of it. Not all rockefellers are multimillionaires
and there are some very well off hostages, but they
had to assimilate right, and that's anathema to a lot
(47:31):
of traditional low stages. They don't like that word. I
don't like assimilation. I mean, would would you like assimilation
if if that were your culture? Did? Came from Scotland
and Germany and we assimilated into the American way. But
isn't that the difference though? You guys came here, they
were already here. No, clearly, and now did that go
(47:54):
back to that Jackson Ian Genocide? It was forced assimilation.
But I think that there is a significant effort by
the government, which is of the people, of which I'm one,
that wants to recognize an honor and build up the
(48:14):
the heritage of the native Americans and Poma. I am
one of those. I'm a big proponent for that. I mean,
I get all the most ages agreeing with you, but
you can talk to the choctaws and the chickasaws and
Cherokees with whom I work a weekly basis. I asked
Gettner again, what do you thought about one of the
other documents I left him, that memo from Jack Drummond
(48:36):
with the one line that seemed to say the Drummond
brothers borrowed money from Iron Banks Jr to buy the
Bill Hale Land. I mean, I read those notes, but
I mean I'm a trained litigator and you know, seeing
disparate notes without getting testimony or other sources. I mean
you can read it either way. And so he does
(48:56):
have notes and they do appear cryptic. I mean it
was hard to follow exactly what is doing. And I
mean and are there terms of art being used or
these uh shorthand for other terms? You know, it was
I didn't put a lot of stock in the notes
that were transcribed by Jack Drummond. Since that conversation, Getner
(49:19):
has won the Republican nomination for Attorney General. His only
challenger in the general election is Libertarian Linda Steel. I've
also continued to send documents to Gettner. He said he's
proud of his family history and not from what he
can tell, they did what they could help o St
Ages and the ways that were available at the time.
(49:52):
There was one other document I shared with Gettner, written
by someone within the federal government back then who was
concerned that the Drummond there's might be abusing their power,
and not just in Myron banks Jr's case. His name
was Lewis Divers. He was the tribal attorney for the
O S age nation in the thirties. This was a
u s government position meant to look out for O
(50:14):
s age legal interests, and in this letter he objects
to Fred getner becoming the executor of yet another O
s ages state. Stiver says the will in this case
is valid. That's not why he was objecting. stivers was
objecting because of the person named as executor. He said
Fred Getner and his brothers were part of a quote association.
(50:38):
According to stivers, it worked like this. Along with at
least five other white men in O s age county,
the Drummond brothers would use their positions as guardians and
administrators to extend each other loans from their os age
towards accounts and to prove each other's claims against Oth
age estates. STIVER's enlists a series of examples where he
(50:58):
saw this play out, including one of Fred l shed's
guardianships and the drummonds guardianship of myron banks Jr, cases
where I could see firsthand how the Drummond brothers made
o s age money work for themselves. But there were
other names in this letter from stivers that I hadn't
seen yet, and when I started looking into what happened
(51:19):
with those O s age families. I found a story
that took me beyond deeds and mortgages, a story that
I had hoped I wouldn't run into. That's next time
on in trust. In trust is a production of Bloomberg
(51:43):
and I heeart media. It's reported and hosted by me
Rachel Adam's heard additional reporting by Alison Eda. Davis land
is our senior producer. Samantha story is our executive producer.
Jeff Grocott is our senior editor. Additional editing by Francesco
leavy and Daniel Ferrara. Additional production by Victor Ebayez, production
(52:07):
support from Jelda de Carli, sound engineering by Blake Maples,
fact checking by Molly nugent. Theme Music by Laura Orman.
Photography by Shane Brown. You can email us at podcasts
at Bloomberg Dot net. Find more about this episode at
Bloomberg Dot Com. Slash in trust. Find intrust anywhere you
(52:29):
get your podcasts.
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