July 29, 2022 • 49 mins
We talk to Dallas activists from Say It With Your Chest and the John Brown Gun Clubs who have been there to protect the unhoused community.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, it's it could happen here a podcast about usually
bad things happening, all the bad things that are happening everywhere,
but occasionally about good things happening and people doing cool
stuff to make a better world. And this Lucky You,
Lucky all of Us happens to be one of the
latter kinds of episodes when we talk about good things happening.
UH with me in the studio, which is more of
(00:27):
an a femoral concept than a physical studio because there's
a plague going on. Is James Stout and Garrison Davis
co hosting the podcast Hello fellas, Greetings now today. The
thing that we're talking about, UM, we we had about
a week or so two weeks ago, represent a couple
of representatives from the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club
(00:49):
in Dallas, Texas come in UH and they had been
providing armed security at a couple of different Dallas area
protests against Christian nationalists. UM. I do recommend checking out
those episodes. This week, we have one representative from that
organization back on and what we'll be talking about is
there have been a series of attempted sweeps in Dallas
(01:10):
at a homeless camp UM and if you're not familiar
with the concept. Basically, people who are experiencing homelessness set
up encampments in order to live with some degree of
comfort and have you know, their stuff with them. Um.
These are generally in places like parks, under overpasses, that
kind of situation, and periodically the city will come through
(01:31):
and sweep them. The city's language is always very much
focused towards we're trying to help them, you know, get
into some sort of situation where they can find help.
But what usually winds up happening is the city takes
a bunch of people's stuff and throws it in the trash,
often before extreme weather events. UM. It's a really gnarly
thing to experience, and activists in a number of cities
(01:54):
have experimented with different tactics to try and stop and
delay sweeps. And what we've had happening lately over the
last week in Dallas is representatives of the Elm Fork
John Brown Gun Club have been showing up armed alongside
activists with say it with your Chest Dallas, and the
kind of thing that's been spreading on Twitter is of
(02:15):
course the fact that activists have shown up with guns
to stop the sweeps, and the Dallas Police have not
shown up to do the sweeps. The thing that often
gets missed in this kind of Twitter level discourse, although
is covered in a pretty good Dallas Morning News article
on the subject, is that there have also been activists,
as I said, from the Say It with Your Chest movement,
who have been showing up to help people, to provide
(02:35):
laundry service, transportation, food and water. And essentially what they've
been doing is trying to help people get things together
and organized to move to a new location, um, in
a manner that allows them to do so with like
dignity and comfort and not get their stuff thrown out
by the city or experienced violence from the police while
it's happening. So, UM, that is the broad situation. I'm
(02:58):
not gonna say anymore, my elf. I want to introduce
Danny from Say with Your Chest Dallas and Bubble from
the um Fort John Brown Gun Club. Thank you both
for being on the show, Thanks for having me, Thank
you for having us. Um was that a broadly accurate
summary of events? Um? Yeah, for the for the most part,
the city has actually been sweeping several They're they're cracking
(03:22):
down on houselessness, right now very very aggressive. And so
it's not just that one camp that we were defending
the other day, but um, the monday before we were
defending another camp. And UM, I've never seen this many
sweeps happen at one time, and I've been doing this
for a little over two years now. I want to
(03:44):
actually go a little bit into how your organization formed,
But before that, do you have any kind of can
you posit why the city has suddenly ramped up sweeps
so aggressively in Dallas so uh, normally talking to the
rest of the I've never I've never seen it happen
like multiple times in a week. Usually they'll do one
(04:05):
uh way a little bit, we'll hear a nose a
couples later or something, but multiple in a week at
different spots is definitely, UM, definitely new to us. UM
As for why, the typical reasons are like, you know,
the state there comes up in October, so they'll try
to sweep then, UM, or they'll do it UM usually
(04:28):
like a housing development UM and things like that, where
like the land is brought up or you know something.
But recently, UM, the motivations have been a little bit
more unclear with the aggression Um, it's kind of the
(04:49):
the city in terms of how they execute sweeps. It
used to be that code compliance could not touch people's belongings.
Reason certainly it has shifted to take everything, throw away everything. Um.
But yeah, we still don't know why it happening yet.
(05:10):
It is certainly like part of a nationwide trend because
we're having the same things happen in Portland increasingly. And
obviously Portland and Dallas aren't the only cities where sweeps
have been ramped up. Um. And of course you also
have Oh gosh, I I just ran across the article
today that like there's discussion in certain cities about like, yes,
somewhere in Florida about like putting houseless people in like
(05:33):
essentially an island compound and whatnot, like basically like a
concentration camp. Right. Yeah, that's been also mentioned by people
affiliated with like the Portland City Council in the Mayor's office.
It's like essentially getting a concentrated collection of homeless people
in one closed off area. And you're like, ha, I wonder,
(05:55):
I wonder what they mean by that. Yeah, it's it's unsettling.
So I'm curious because obviously I think what y'all are
doing in Dallas right now is extremely important and you've
been having a lot of success so far. I wanted
to talk a little bit about how your organization because
we we chatted with the John Brown Gun Club folks
a couple of weeks ago about how they started organizing.
(06:15):
How did say it with your chest get off the ground? Um,
so that was interesting. Stay with your Chest originally started
along with a lot of orcs and Mutually Works in Dallas. UM.
After George Floyd was more murdered back in June of
m we started. Um. I was in Playo at the time,
(06:36):
which is like a suburb that's where I grew up.
Oh really, yeah, I wasn't playing at the time, and uh,
you know, I, me and my friends were kind of
like these suburban people can turn off their TVs and
not really have to worry about the protest going on
downtown and things like that. So we would protest on
(06:57):
street corners and just yell at you know, white people
in their Mercedes and you know, make them uncomfortable on purpose. Um.
Then we started linking up with other Mutual Aid organs
in Dallas, and you know it was just shifting food,
trying to carry that stuff up north. Um and then
uh then we um, well I started going to Camp
(07:18):
Randa UM, which was like a probably the first and
like it was a very solid example of a self
sustaining houseless encampment where people we're just allowed to be
and left alone. We're helping people a lot of them
(07:39):
and recovery and things like that, and um, everyone looked
out for each other. It was a really great community
before the that was such a rare project. UM. Not
to derail it too much, but I want to tell
you guys about Camp Randa. Yeah, like that'ally organized on
houses camp. The organizers outside organizers where there everyday helping.
(08:01):
The camp itself was organized amongst themselves. They had political
theory meetings, they had community meetings to solve issues and
resolve inter personal problems, sucking rad um and it stayed
together for nine months. It was it lasted for a minute,
I know it was approximate it was over six I believe,
(08:22):
but it lasted for a while at one location and
then it had to move and then um the next
location we ended up moving all the people to. They
stayed there first all ten months before um the city
sold the land and like some under the table deal
and showed up and swept everybody. It reminds me quite
(08:44):
a bit of a place I I worked out in
Seattle for a while, Nicholsville, which was a plot of land,
a couple of acres large where houseless people had set
up basically built like a tiny home village for themselves.
They provided solar power, um, they had arranged their own
like trash pick up. Um. It was safe and uh,
(09:05):
very well organized and very comfortable, like an actual fairly
high standard of living UM, good level like good good
wastewater treatment and all that kind of stuff. Um. Which
existed for a couple of years before the city came
in and swept it and destroyed everybody's houses and forced them,
you know into again kind of a series of camping situations. UM. Yeah,
(09:27):
which is you know, you get these It's it's very
frustrating because there's this understanding that like, well, we want
them in, and part of the understanding you get from
a number of cities is like, well, we do want
them in one place, and we want them in something
that's more permanent than you know, a bunch of tents.
But if they set that up on their own and
have autonomy and have the ability to like exist with
(09:50):
any kind of personal freedom. Then we don't want that,
and we will send armed men and to break it up. Yeah,
Like the city is like, oh yeah, well I don't.
I genuinely do not think of Dallas wants to house people. UM.
Otherwise the Office of Homeless Solutions simply would not exist
and they wouldn't have a way to just have money
(10:15):
sitting around UM, and all those people would lose their jobs,
you know, because it's not housing people. You know, people
are like, how do you do that? It's not hard,
it's not difficult. The city is spending what two billion dollars.
I'm renovating the Convention Center that could house every house
this person in Dallas for years, you know. But but
(10:37):
then we wouldn't be able to have all of the
wonderful things. Someone who lived in Dallas fifteen years. I
can remember one, maybe even two times when I went
to the convention Center. What would we do? I think?
Maybe one time? What's wrong with it to where we had?
Like it's Dallas prioritizes developers or anything else, and that
(11:02):
is more than UM a parent in how they treat
the house's population. UM. They're definitely because it's like my
my problem, right, Okay, if the city, the city is
gonna do sweeps, that's something that I can't really necessarily
stop them from doing on my own, but we can
(11:22):
and alleviate some of the effects of you know, um,
but when this is sweeping people in the heat like that,
we're in the cold, elderly just aid people. It's like,
y'all really are just telling them to die and the
least you could do. And I've emailed Marcy Jackson, who's
(11:42):
the community outreach chair for OHS, you know, She's been like, well,
they can go to the shelter. It's it's about it's
within three miles. Now, I'm like, you you're gonna walk
three You're telling somebody who's elder than they able to
walk three miles in a hundred and seven degree heat
(12:04):
to get to a cooling station that is only open
to like five Well, uh, there's a lot of cognitive
distance in the city. Just for a little bit of
reference too, because like we have cooling stations and stuff
(12:26):
up in Portland and you have similar problems. One thing
that is a benefit to folks in a place like
Oregon is that after five six pm when like this
cooling stations start to cool down. It actually does cool
down here, Like it gets cool at night even when
it's a hundred outside. That doesn't happen in Dallas during
the Yeah, I've literally had it be triple digits at
(12:49):
midnight and Dallas, Texas, like that's the place it is. No,
so you're still it's still a threat to life and
limb even when the sun's not beating down on you. Yeah,
sometimes I was calling shelters. I know, certainly, like here
we have a bunch of issues with shelters and cooling
shelters and stuff like you don't have privacy, You can't
bring your pets. They want you to look all your
(13:11):
possessions up somewhere else. There are like a number of
other things that really limit people's ability to feel safe accessing.
I don't know if it's the same there, but like
it's not that there's necessarily a place where someone would
feel safe and I'm not going there. It's when I
made that clear, pets are a big issue. And this
is something that again when I was at Nicholsville, people
would point out that, like folks would accuse them of
(13:32):
being like abusive because they had a cat or a dog,
you know, that was living with them in the encampment.
And they'd be like, well, number one, like it's okay
for me to live this way, but it's not okay
for like a cat or a dog. And also just
like do I not deserve companionship and love in my life?
Like this is what this animal is one of the
is one of the things that helps keep me. And
(13:53):
I talked to a number of folks who got back
into housing who were like, if we had not had
our cat with us, like I don't know that we
would have made it, but because just having that animal
with us like helped, Like that's it's for the same reason.
Everybody has animals, right, Like every single houseless person that
has a pet, has a service animal, has a that
is a service animal. As far as I'm concerned, would
(14:15):
you separate somebody who is disabled from their wheelchair or
would you separate somebody from there like their service animal,
their dog that they need, you know, And it's like
when you're out there, Um, I know that a lot
of people have dogs for comfort, but also dogs are protection,
they are security in such a dangerous environment, um, where
(14:38):
people are always you know, like it's just it's just
it is unfathomable how much trauma UM goes into being houseless,
especially in Dallas, in places like dala. UM. So I'd
like to ask you a little bit, so you have
been Is this kind of the first collaboration this last
(15:00):
week or so, let's say it with your chest has
had with the the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club.
Had you guys been working together prior to this? Uh? Yeah, yeah,
Like we UM originally met members of Elm Fork when
UM Camp Ronda first started, uh back in UM and
we were collaborating on like getting people's supplies, UM tents
(15:22):
and things like that. I would run laundry UM with
my org uh and like yeah, we were. We just
you know, always collaborated to make sure like the people
could get what they need if somebody had supplied somebody
able to show up and we couldn't, you know, UM
just working together. Yeah, And I'm curious, UM, could you
(15:45):
kind of walk us through sort of how what you
see is the benefit of having folks who are visibly
armed UM for this kind of for these kind of actions,
Like how did how did number one sweep defense tend
to work? Before y'all were doing that, and how has
that altered kind of the way in which you're seeing
this activism like take effect UM as far as I know,
(16:13):
people from members of ELM four because they have always
shown up with UM firearms in some capacity, whether it's
concealed or open, but UM there was a noticeable difference
with the open carry UM. I know that back in
February when one of our other camps was getting swept
UM and they showed up like afterwards, we had a
(16:36):
meeting with the director of UM HOMEO Solutions, Christine Crosley.
She sucks UM and uh. She was like, people were like,
we were hearing reports of people that were openly armed,
and we want to we really care about the safety
of like the unhoused residents out there. And I was like,
(16:58):
they were more afraid of the ops then of the
five people out here with with rifles. And that's that's something.
It's like, if you're going to show up with twelve
dudes with guns, what's the problem with some of us
showing up with like a little something just in case?
You know, the state should not be the only one
(17:21):
to have access to firearms. That is very dangerous. UM
but also I don't mean that in a to a
kind of way. If that makes sensitive. Yeah, that does
kind of bring up an interesting point, which is if
you're showing as you're showing up kind of in this
capacity with both activists to kind of help folks with
(17:41):
their stuff, with with laundry and other needs, but also
people who are are carrying are fifteens and wearing plate carriers.
I imagine there's like a degree to which you are
trying to give people a heads up before, just so
they don't be like, oh, suddenly there's spokes with guns.
What's going on? Right? Can you kind of walk us
through the community outreach explaining sort of like how you
how you actually go about letting people know what's going
(18:03):
to be happening and stuff and and what the folks
showing up are doing well when it comes to sweeps, um,
And normally I focus a lot on just making sure
that people are okay and defending them. UM. When I
I do not necessarily like ask for work to show
(18:28):
up with guns. I'm just more like I assume if
y'all are going to be there, they are going to
be um, you know, and sometimes there was usually the
residents are like the residents have some of the residents
have firearms themselves, you know, so they're like, well aware, Um,
(18:49):
there are some cases where like people will get a
little bit anxious about it, and you know, we kind
of have to be like, if you really don't want
the guns here, then that's fine, we can move them.
It in the past with this track record, like usually
the city kind of backs off a little bit when
they know that y'all are actutely protected, you know, because um,
(19:10):
the city is the city is a bully. They really
do like picking on people who the most vulnerable of us,
you know. Um, And so lately the guns have been
seeming to have them back off a little bit. I
know when they pulled up, Like when ELMP pulled up
(19:30):
and hopped out the car with the rifles, all of
the cops at we squatted up into like a little
a little i don't know, pick circle and they started talking, uh,
and they were genuinely like, what do we do hold
on me when we haven't? You know? Yeah, And it's
I mean that's kind of the that's kind of the
story as we're coming into it right now, which is
(19:52):
they were supposed to be a sweep what is it
five days ago now Friday? Yeah, almost a week and
y'all have been showing up a couple of times in
that period to help people get there, get things together
and whatnot and get which is an important the fact
that you're helping them kind of move and and doing
it more in kind of their own time frame as
opposed to the city shows up and you've got to
(20:14):
like grab what you can or lose everything. Um. Is
important because you're also you're not just showing up with
activists with guns and saying like the city we're not
going to let any like no one's going to move,
and we're like we're we're drawing a line in the sand,
which is not would not be a particularly safe call.
I wouldn't think my my main priority out there because
(20:37):
there's a lot of black and brown bodies out there
and people is making sure they are safe. And Um,
even before this last one, like a lot of us
were concerned about the guns because like we didn't want
things to escalate, and we never know with police, sometimes
they get really excited and sometimes they back off. It's
(21:01):
really uh really don't know. UM, So we were also
taking that into consideration. UM, and I was kind of
like the unfork know, like listen and there's a lot
of black and brown people out here, and you don't
want to escalate anything and you know, put people in danger. UM,
(21:22):
And it seems like this time the city I didn't
really want to mess with that. So that's good, but
it's always important to keep that in mind any time
you have firearms population. And I'm curious, um Bubble, can
you talk a little bit about the how this kind
of organizing is sort of different than the stuff you've
(21:45):
been doing at at counter protesting events. Like what are
kind of the different things that y'all are keeping in
mind as you as you make action plans for days
like this compared to when you know you're showing up
to at a at a protest to kind of counter
groups of Proud Boys or whatever. Yeah, it's pretty different, um,
in that when we're doing security for marches or um,
(22:09):
you know, protecting Pride events. Uh, it's not like a
direct confrontation with so it's it's a bit it's a
bit different. It's a little bit more high stakes. UM
when we do stop the sweep things, you know, we
want to we want to push back, but at the
same um, you know, not be the first to cross
(22:31):
any lines. Um. So it is, you know, it is.
It is a more sensitive situation. I think it requires
different kind of planning. Um. And of course there's there's
all these bystanders, there's all the residents there who were
there to help that we don't want to endanger in
any way. Um, like Danny was saying. I actually had
(22:52):
um what ended up being a pretty cool conversation with
a resident afterward. But he was kind of an organizer
in the camp and he was talking to me and
he said, you know, I don't think we want the guns, like,
we don't want any trouble. And I leaned over to
him and I whispered to him, Look, we're just here
(23:12):
with guns to try to get the cops to back off. Um.
I think they're actually backing off now, because we've actually
just heard the cops that we're going to leave. I said,
I think they're backing off. We're gone, don't worry about it.
And he said, wait, wait, you know, don't leave yet,
Wait till they leave. Um. And now that that's uh,
(23:33):
I am interested, like as the uh, the actual folks
showing up armed, bubble, do you guys have kind of
a like standard set of responses and stuff that you
work through ahead of time to kind of explain things
to people and make sure everyone's on the same page
in terms of how they're doing it. Um. Yeah, we
have some of that worked out. That's an evolving thing
(23:54):
where we're trying to standardize. Yeah, work a long time
with a core group of people that knows each other
really well. Um, so we have like seen each other
at you know, dozens of these things, and we know
how each other operate. With some newer people coming in,
you know, we are working now on kind of standardizing
(24:16):
those responses and uh, you know, sharing our past experiences
and are thinking and all that. Um. Now, question for
for both Slash either of you. As you've gotten more
into doing sweep defenses, what have been some of kind
of the lessons learned Things that have been like, Okay,
we went into it thinking like this was a good
(24:36):
idea and it turned out that like that doesn't work
very well, so we've had to do this like just
things that have kind of um, best practices that have
kind of evolved over time doing this. Um honestly a
lot of it A lot when when tensions are really
high like that, UM, because you come to sweeps like
(24:59):
I'm the one kind of like dealing with UM a
lot of like overseeing and stuff like that, and when
tensions are really high like that. Honestly, the best thing
is harm reduction. Harm Reduction is at the pinnacle of
it's at the core of like whatever we do UH,
(25:20):
and part of that is meeting people where they're at
UM and making sure that we UM help the people.
I show up, I shift you not. One of the
best things that we started doing is showing up with
packs of Newports on God. It makes it a lot UM.
You know, when you're going through trauma like that, UM
(25:42):
and someone hands you a cigarette, that's something that not
only helps you kind of regulate yourself when you're experiencing
this high stress situation where you're being evicted from your
home and you're gonna lose your stuff and you're afraid
people are gonna steals, and it's a whole lot that
helps bring people back and it makes it a lot
(26:02):
easier for us to UM work with people and UM
still maintain the bonds that we've created and maintain the
levels of trust that we have with the community. UM. Literally,
some simple things like handing out cigarettes, um, during because
that's a way that we're like, hey, we're here for you,
(26:23):
we know what you need. Yeah, and we're not We're
also we're not here to like judge what's best for you,
you know, and do some like nanny state ship like
you need a cigarette right now, right like it's stressful,
not really like hell, I would need a cigarette to
you know. At that point, um, there was somebody who
was like, you're asking people for newports. You need to
(26:44):
stop doing that, Like that's really unhealthy. And I thought
you were trying to say these people and it's like,
I'm not trying to say for starters. We're not Captain America.
We're not no avengers, Okay. We are regular people fulfilling
a responsibility. And that responsibility is to be there for
our neighbors. That's how movements happen, that's how anything happens.
(27:09):
And all of that is rooted in you know, indigenous
um communalism and theory and stuff like that that I
think is really important. It's just fulfilling that responsibility and
being there for people and when it comes to because
you know, we always try to provide folks listening in
other towns and stuff who may be like inspired by
(27:30):
this with options for how they might move forward on
trying to replicate some of y'all's successes. If people are
looking at okay, I would like to help do sweep
defensive I would like to do, you know, work kind
of like this in my own community. How do you
recommend because obviously there's you know, how how to build
organizations is another matter. But like, if you've got a
(27:51):
group together to help folks, how do you recommend kind
of starting the process of introducing yourself Because you can't
just like show up and be like hey, like just
be like, hey, we're gonna certainly not with guns, but yeah,
and don't um. You have to develop a really really
strong report with your community first, and you also need
(28:13):
to make sure that's your community. Like you know, UM,
I I've spent a really long time perioding UM relationships
with the unhoused populations of Health Dallas, UM, and that
took literal years, you know, UM. Expecting people to trust
(28:33):
you off the bat, and expecting people to just like
be like, oh, you're one of the good guys. It's
not going to happen, especially if you're white, like honestly,
if we be in if we're keeping in a book,
because like, there's a whole lot of black and brown
people out there in these vulnerable communities, and usually the
white people that they see are the white people who
are talking down to them and not treating them as
(28:54):
human beings. The main thing that people, the people out
there are need most is consistency from you, even if
you don't even if one day you don't have anything,
and you can just hand out water there with them
and developing community that way, you know. And one of
the things that people tell me a lot is that
just it was it's been vering shocking to me how
(29:15):
much I've heard it. Is people are like, you don't
talk to us, it's like how other people talk to us.
You talk to us like people, And the sheer amount
of time. I was really shocked by how many times
I've actually heard that, because I'm like, you know, I
don't really think I talked much differently from anybody else.
(29:35):
But then when I go out there and see other people,
just random people handing out macgriddles or whatever, you know,
there's definitely a switch. Like if you were talking to
a pet or to a child, you know, Um, like
you pity something, people will not want you around because honestly,
(29:55):
they don't want your pity. What they want is bottles
of water. You know. If you're just only showing up
when ship's going down, um, you don't actually have the
people trust. And I think if anything, that hurts it
a little bit because it's like, oh, I am only
here to make you feel good about yourself. You want
(30:16):
to be the one saving everybody. It's like you've got
to dismantle your savior complex first before you do anything.
And I think it's good to talk about, um, kind
of how this actually how these actions actually look on
the ground, because again, the thing that sort of has
gone semiviral on Twitter has been the fact that like,
(30:37):
you know, people with guns stood off the cops. But
if you're imagining some sort of like big armed standoff,
like that's not how this has looked. Which is the
thing I liked about the Dallas Morning News article. Um,
which we will do you mean the article or the
opinion piece? Sorry, yes, UM, I am pulling it up
(30:58):
right now just to have that we'll have it. There's
an opinion already. Oh any time on howse people pop
up into discourse someone is ready to write again. Yeah,
it's the the article, the article armed activists block Dallas
workers from cleaning a homeless camp. That's an acceptable opinion.
That's that's not the one I was talking about. That
(31:20):
what I'm talking about is titled uh and it is
a news article Dallas delays moving homeless camp after activists
show up, which did a good job of not kind
of over emphasizing the armed part and talking about the
actual work y'all were doing in the community. I was
kind of impressed with it, especially given the Dallas Morning
News is most recent like general trends, shall we say,
(31:42):
and considering their opinion piece they published yesterday. Yeah, I
hadn't seen that one. Could you talk a little bit
about how these these actions have actually on the ground
during the day of Yeah, so on the ground, um,
(32:04):
some people arrived very early, and you really never know
when the cops in the city are going to show up.
So Elm Fork showed up close to nine and they
are already like four cops there, um, and that you know,
that's unfortunate. We probably should have shown up earlier. We
(32:26):
you know, if if we're going to go to protect
the other activists, you know, you don't want to leave
the unarmed activists exposed to um police violence. Um, but
either way, you know, we we formed up. It was
maybe two unarmed activists for every armed activists, and we
discussed what to do. Some people decided to block off
(32:48):
the streets with their vehicles. UM. The cops were there
for a solid hour and a half before h Almost
Solution or the Office of Homeless Solutions and Code Compliance
started arriving. So by that time, UM, a good number
(33:08):
of armed activists were there and the cops had been
discussing amongst themselves, UM, you know, whatever it is that
they were talking about. But when oh HS and Code
got there, Uh, they talked with the cops for about
thirty minutes and then they started leaving. During that time,
(33:28):
the unarmed activists were packing things up, UM get you know,
getting people ready to move if those people wanted to move. Uh.
One thing to to kind of go back a little bit.
One thing that we've learned carrying is it's very difficult
to do the same things that we were doing as
(33:48):
unarmed activists. UM. You know, we we don't really want
to be carrying tents and stuff while also trying to
negotiate you know, having a rifle in our arms. So
oh uh, you know, there's kind of a division of
labor there. But you know, before two hours had even passed,
basically the sweep was called off. The city and the
(34:10):
cops left and the mutual aid work continued throughout the
rest of the day. Uh, ELM Fork had some members
switching out, you know, some people had to go to work.
Some people arrived around noon that was kind of the
main switch out point and uh, you know a lesser
number of people but still a significant amount stayed there
(34:31):
until four or five pm. Whenever M four comes with guns.
The main thing that I like to have them do
is surveillance and be watching so that way we can
focus on UM having other volunteers actually help people, you know,
and like have them help them move and stuff. And
the surveillance definitely helps because what happens when the cops
(34:52):
leave and when the city leaves is that they'll still
have people like watching UM and driving around and trying
to surveil us UM and so having more eyes on
that situation and having them know like, yeah, we're still
here is really helpful. Great, UM, thank you. Did anybody
else have additional questions? To ask James you had one
or two more things. Yeah, I'm like, I'm interested in
(35:15):
and maybe asking bubble this because I'm just looking at
the pictures on the on the Dallas Morning News story
And incredibly they didn't lead with a picture of you
all sort of suited and booted in full battle rattle,
which I think is good on their part. But how
do you present an event like this? Right? Like, obviously
(35:35):
I think we should probably mention that, Like, I'm guessing
it's legal to open carry where you are, so you're
not like immediately criming and therefore provoking a superfine confrontation
with the police. Um. Although obviously the police are always
turning up armed um and that always brings violence into
the equation. But are you like masks? Do you full
(35:56):
like this person I'm seeing is like masked helmet god
plate carrier? H Is that Jeremany? How you present or
is that left up to individuals? I want to Um,
we try to be pretty uniform, but it definitely varies
by action. I think the last time we came out armed, um,
(36:17):
we were not in helmets and plate carriers. Um. But
you know everyone has one now and uh, we discussed
it beforehand we decided to go that way. Um, we
try not to park directly where we're going to get seen,
(36:37):
you know, if all possible, Um, because we do need
to get out Europe, you know, walkover in all our stuff. Um.
But yeah, I think you know, for a lot of
actions now, including security, that's kind of been our uh
go to way of presenting. The full masts are very important.
(36:58):
We've moved from like you know, medical style masks to
all the clava style masks just to get more skin coverage,
protect our identities better. Yeah, it makes sense. And one
other thing I just wanted to ask, and perhaps like
explaining in a context, it might might not be read
of it in Texas, I don't know. Um, in California,
(37:20):
at least you need two proofs of address to earn
a firearm right. Um, and if you're unhoused you might
not have those. And therefore people are alienated from what
it's theoretically they're right. Um, whether you want to see
that as a universe or right or constitutional right? Is
that the case there? Or these people? But if they
wanted to Texas doesn't give a fun Texas, you don't
(37:43):
you don't have to file a four or four seven
three to buy a gun in the state of Texas.
My gun literally was just given to me by somebody.
I didn't have to do a hidle transfer or nothing. Like.
Guns are so easy to get in Texas. It's actually
really scary private sale. You can basically do whatever you want. Yeah,
it is hard not to wind up owning a gun
(38:03):
in the States. Easier than owning a place to stay. Definitely,
way easier. Yeah, the country method okay, magnificent. Okay, well yeah,
not the case in other states. And I guess to know,
and and nothing that we've said here should be taken
(38:24):
as legal advice, are e, how to protest or partake
an armed activism, because that can vary, that varies wildly
based on your zip code. And everything we've talked about
today is a massive series of felonies and a number
of other parts of the United States, like, you're not
you're not going to be providing sweep defense in New
York City in this manner. You know, you do this
(38:45):
where I live in Borda, le show up into consideration. Yeah,
so take obviously, I mean that's a big part of
what you're saying, though, is you have to take the
situation on the ground. You have to take the situation
with these people's individuals into You can't just you can't
just go in and impose like this is how we're
going to do sweet defense. You have to go in
there like being willing to learn and adapt because, um,
(39:09):
this is not you know, your day to day life,
and it is life for folks there, and you have
to come in willing to learn and understand what they
need rather than like what you think they need. Yeah,
the we never know what the city is gonna show
up with each time. Like the Monday sweep before this
past one, it was all marshals. It wasn't even act
(39:32):
like regular dp D. It was all marshals. They were
ready to arrest. They had bulldozers and cranes and all
types of ship um. And that was also that was
kind of oftening because I was like, wow, y'all are
being mad aggressive this time. I think we just pissed
them off too much to the point where they were like,
(39:53):
we have to be you know, meaner about it. Uh,
I mean, but we hain't been arrested. Yeah, fingers crossed.
I do want to win. I do want to mention
one more thing. I know, we've talked about how this
kind of pertains to Dallas, and you know, had the
similar you know situations on increasing sweeps across the country
(40:15):
in Portland. I think last month there was an episode
on this show about a homeless encampment in Ohio and
in terms of like similar stuff that has happened to
kind of demonstrate this is like, you know, this is
the thing going on all across the country. UH. There
was a really interesting situation in Boise, Idaho earlier this
year that we may want to cover more in depth
(40:37):
in the future. But in January, when it was freezing outside,
protesters and UH and homeless people launched an encampment in
front of the Boise State Capital, UH to kind of
both provide you know, some type of shelter and community
to help keep each other warm, but also in front
of the capital as like a protest to demand access
(40:59):
to shelter um. You know, and when while in the
middle of like a pretty bad housing crisis and as
it's freezing outside, UH, people at the camp faced a
lot of basically NonStop harrassment from the state, whether that's
police or like state state police. UH. They also faced
a lot of UH problems from far right militia groups.
(41:21):
The Idaho Liberty Dogs showed up to harass people. There
was you know, militia showing up with guns. UM, so
you can see like another instance where something that you
know arm where another instance where armed community defense could
be UH could be a part in trying to keep
of situations like that from not escalating if done properly. Obviously,
(41:44):
if done improperly, that can escalate situations. It's up to
you know, you have to make sure that you're with
people who are you, who you know, who you trust,
and who are responsible. But it's just it's it's another
instance of stuff like this happening. UH anti fascists and
other activists were able to push we're we're able to
keep conflicts from these militia groups to be relatively low
(42:05):
at at the at the encampment and after a few
months and like courts were trying to shut the protest.
That was unsuccessful because of certain laws around camping on
on like capital grounds for protests. But after a few
months the protest was able to end and the city
(42:25):
is now been pushed by the protest to open up
possibly hundreds of units of shelter in the near future.
So you see other instances of of these types of
protests that you know rely on, a lot of like
radical mutual aid, a lot of resistance to the state violence,
a lot of a lot of resistance to far right
violence actually being some like successful. Um, So there's a
(42:49):
lot of places to learn from in this type of
thing around homeless encampments and encountering state violence. Would recommend,
uh it's going down, has a lot of good coverage
of the Boys Idaho thing. So yeah, that's just like
a whole whole other angle to this, to this sort
of trend that we've been seeing the past year. I
(43:10):
would like to say that you are not Fidel Castro.
You know, you are not the revolutionary leader. You are
not the one you know like, and you need to
keep that in mind when you're moving in these spaces
and doing this type of work. Is if your goal
is to try and be like the guy you know, uh,
(43:30):
that does way more harm than good and that's really
important to keep in mind. UM and dismantling your savior
complex as part of that. UM. Of course, in that case,
you know, the house is people uh, residents were you know,
consenting to it and things like that, but please do
take into account the amount of danger that you are
(43:51):
putting very the most vulnerable populations into. Um, it is
not necessarily a good idea, We're morally okay idea to
uh make houseless people into your people's army, you know
that is not I want to make sure that everybody
(44:13):
you know listening is also well aware of like, that
is the wrong way to go about this. The people's
army should be people like us, not the most vulnerable
of us, because they are already fighting very hard. So
that means that's like it's the same thing like saying
why people should be at the front lines protecting black
and brown people during protests. It's the same exact concept.
(44:35):
You protect the most vulnerable of the group. You do
not make them, um, you know, your army and try
to convert them into something and be the leader of
that either. Um, that is that is not the way
to go about that. Yeah, if you're if you're if
you're entering into this relationship with the plan that like
this is a way for us to build power for
(44:55):
whatever and as opposed to we're here to like help
these people, Um, then you're you're putting them second to
whatever your political goals are, which is bad broadly speaking,
I mean, and I know I know at least in
the case of the idea of of in the Ohio
encampment that we talked about earlier this month, UM, and
(45:18):
the IDA who want as well, a large number of
people who are like leading up that project and in
prominent ortization rules were houses people who are living at
those camps. Like, it is very important to have people
who are like you don't want to go in as
someone with stable housing and be like, Okay, I'm in
charge of this thing now. No, it's like the people
who are actually experiencing it need to be the critical
(45:40):
role in actually how it functions. Yeah, and there we've
had not we but like there was somebody who tried
to do that, um, and it definitely did more harm
than good. Um. Putting your political goals over just the
people is always going to fail every single time. Yeah,
(46:02):
listen to the people. If they're not leading it, don't
do it. You know, like at that point, your only
priorities should be getting them what they need and defending
them if necessary, trying to lead stuff and you know,
have them putting them into more vulnerable situations than they're
already at without like fully being transparent with people, or
(46:25):
being transparent with all the risks involved, you know, like
it's that's real, grimy, real, not okay behavior. UM. So
that's just something I also want to caution people against.
And all of that definitely roots back to dismantling your
savior complex and there's um a lot of good um
(46:48):
resources out there um for starting with that process. If
you have not already some of them wrong with your
chest Instagram, I'll kick it out and follow us or
something I don't know. Yeah, yeah, do you wanna I think,
I mean, I'm I'm I'm at out of questions personally,
do we want to um? Uh end with kind of yeah,
(47:10):
how folks can follow you and stay in touch with
what y'all are doing or potentially even support you. Yeah,
we are at say it with your chest dt X
on Instagram. UM. I also organized with the Dallas Liberation Movement,
which is a bigger or that mobilizes across the nine
(47:32):
thousand square miles of DFW. UM. I run that with
three of my good friends and organizers. Uh. And so
you can follow us at Dallas Liberation m v MT
on Instagram. UM Oh if you're willing, able and financially stable,
throw us some cash, lease and listen to black women.
(47:54):
Listen to black and indigenous women. That's all I got,
all right, um, bubble, did you have anything to add? Yeah,
I think it's important to have diverse collection of groups. Um.
You know, Danny's a hero, she's out there almost every day. UM.
For ELM Fork. We do a lot of trainings, we
(48:14):
do a lot of classes, um that take up our resources,
but we have these longstanding relationships so that we can
support each other um when need be. UM. You know,
take care of your take care of your spaces, take
care of your communities. Like Danny said, UM, focus on
the people in those spaces, wther that be uh and
(48:36):
housed people or your own organizers and activists. You know,
you gotta keep you gotta keep things safe. It's hot
out here. There's been a lot of stress and and conflicts,
and you always have to practice UM restorative justice and accountability. UM.
(48:56):
And you know, just keep fighting, keep keep loving each
other there all right, Well that's gonna do it for
everybody here at It could happen here today. Uh yeah,
go go go do something good. It could happen here
(49:16):
as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media
dot com, or check us out on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,
you can find sources for It could happen here, updated
monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks
for listening.
Hey, it's it could happen here a podcast about usually
bad things happening, all the bad things that are happening everywhere,
but occasionally about good things happening and people doing cool
stuff to make a better world. And this Lucky You,
Lucky all of Us happens to be one of the
latter kinds of episodes when we talk about good things happening.
UH with me in the studio, which is more of
(00:27):
an a femoral concept than a physical studio because there's
a plague going on. Is James Stout and Garrison Davis
co hosting the podcast Hello fellas, Greetings now today. The
thing that we're talking about, UM, we we had about
a week or so two weeks ago, represent a couple
of representatives from the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club
(00:49):
in Dallas, Texas come in UH and they had been
providing armed security at a couple of different Dallas area
protests against Christian nationalists. UM. I do recommend checking out
those episodes. This week, we have one representative from that
organization back on and what we'll be talking about is
there have been a series of attempted sweeps in Dallas
(01:10):
at a homeless camp UM and if you're not familiar
with the concept. Basically, people who are experiencing homelessness set
up encampments in order to live with some degree of
comfort and have you know, their stuff with them. Um.
These are generally in places like parks, under overpasses, that
kind of situation, and periodically the city will come through
(01:31):
and sweep them. The city's language is always very much
focused towards we're trying to help them, you know, get
into some sort of situation where they can find help.
But what usually winds up happening is the city takes
a bunch of people's stuff and throws it in the trash,
often before extreme weather events. UM. It's a really gnarly
thing to experience, and activists in a number of cities
(01:54):
have experimented with different tactics to try and stop and
delay sweeps. And what we've had happening lately over the
last week in Dallas is representatives of the Elm Fork
John Brown Gun Club have been showing up armed alongside
activists with say it with your Chest Dallas, and the
kind of thing that's been spreading on Twitter is of
(02:15):
course the fact that activists have shown up with guns
to stop the sweeps, and the Dallas Police have not
shown up to do the sweeps. The thing that often
gets missed in this kind of Twitter level discourse, although
is covered in a pretty good Dallas Morning News article
on the subject, is that there have also been activists,
as I said, from the Say It with Your Chest movement,
who have been showing up to help people, to provide
(02:35):
laundry service, transportation, food and water. And essentially what they've
been doing is trying to help people get things together
and organized to move to a new location, um, in
a manner that allows them to do so with like
dignity and comfort and not get their stuff thrown out
by the city or experienced violence from the police while
it's happening. So, UM, that is the broad situation. I'm
(02:58):
not gonna say anymore, my elf. I want to introduce
Danny from Say with Your Chest Dallas and Bubble from
the um Fort John Brown Gun Club. Thank you both
for being on the show, Thanks for having me, Thank
you for having us. Um was that a broadly accurate
summary of events? Um? Yeah, for the for the most part,
the city has actually been sweeping several They're they're cracking
(03:22):
down on houselessness, right now very very aggressive. And so
it's not just that one camp that we were defending
the other day, but um, the monday before we were
defending another camp. And UM, I've never seen this many
sweeps happen at one time, and I've been doing this
for a little over two years now. I want to
(03:44):
actually go a little bit into how your organization formed,
But before that, do you have any kind of can
you posit why the city has suddenly ramped up sweeps
so aggressively in Dallas so uh, normally talking to the
rest of the I've never I've never seen it happen
like multiple times in a week. Usually they'll do one
(04:05):
uh way a little bit, we'll hear a nose a
couples later or something, but multiple in a week at
different spots is definitely, UM, definitely new to us. UM
As for why, the typical reasons are like, you know,
the state there comes up in October, so they'll try
to sweep then, UM, or they'll do it UM usually
(04:28):
like a housing development UM and things like that, where
like the land is brought up or you know something.
But recently, UM, the motivations have been a little bit
more unclear with the aggression Um, it's kind of the
(04:49):
the city in terms of how they execute sweeps. It
used to be that code compliance could not touch people's belongings.
Reason certainly it has shifted to take everything, throw away everything. Um.
But yeah, we still don't know why it happening yet.
(05:10):
It is certainly like part of a nationwide trend because
we're having the same things happen in Portland increasingly. And
obviously Portland and Dallas aren't the only cities where sweeps
have been ramped up. Um. And of course you also
have Oh gosh, I I just ran across the article
today that like there's discussion in certain cities about like, yes,
somewhere in Florida about like putting houseless people in like
(05:33):
essentially an island compound and whatnot, like basically like a
concentration camp. Right. Yeah, that's been also mentioned by people
affiliated with like the Portland City Council in the Mayor's office.
It's like essentially getting a concentrated collection of homeless people
in one closed off area. And you're like, ha, I wonder,
(05:55):
I wonder what they mean by that. Yeah, it's it's unsettling.
So I'm curious because obviously I think what y'all are
doing in Dallas right now is extremely important and you've
been having a lot of success so far. I wanted
to talk a little bit about how your organization because
we we chatted with the John Brown Gun Club folks
a couple of weeks ago about how they started organizing.
(06:15):
How did say it with your chest get off the ground? Um,
so that was interesting. Stay with your Chest originally started
along with a lot of orcs and Mutually Works in Dallas. UM.
After George Floyd was more murdered back in June of
m we started. Um. I was in Playo at the time,
(06:36):
which is like a suburb that's where I grew up.
Oh really, yeah, I wasn't playing at the time, and uh,
you know, I, me and my friends were kind of
like these suburban people can turn off their TVs and
not really have to worry about the protest going on
downtown and things like that. So we would protest on
(06:57):
street corners and just yell at you know, white people
in their Mercedes and you know, make them uncomfortable on purpose. Um.
Then we started linking up with other Mutual Aid organs
in Dallas, and you know it was just shifting food,
trying to carry that stuff up north. Um and then
uh then we um, well I started going to Camp
(07:18):
Randa UM, which was like a probably the first and
like it was a very solid example of a self
sustaining houseless encampment where people we're just allowed to be
and left alone. We're helping people a lot of them
(07:39):
and recovery and things like that, and um, everyone looked
out for each other. It was a really great community
before the that was such a rare project. UM. Not
to derail it too much, but I want to tell
you guys about Camp Randa. Yeah, like that'ally organized on
houses camp. The organizers outside organizers where there everyday helping.
(08:01):
The camp itself was organized amongst themselves. They had political
theory meetings, they had community meetings to solve issues and
resolve inter personal problems, sucking rad um and it stayed
together for nine months. It was it lasted for a minute,
I know it was approximate it was over six I believe,
(08:22):
but it lasted for a while at one location and
then it had to move and then um the next
location we ended up moving all the people to. They
stayed there first all ten months before um the city
sold the land and like some under the table deal
and showed up and swept everybody. It reminds me quite
(08:44):
a bit of a place I I worked out in
Seattle for a while, Nicholsville, which was a plot of land,
a couple of acres large where houseless people had set
up basically built like a tiny home village for themselves.
They provided solar power, um, they had arranged their own
like trash pick up. Um. It was safe and uh,
(09:05):
very well organized and very comfortable, like an actual fairly
high standard of living UM, good level like good good
wastewater treatment and all that kind of stuff. Um. Which
existed for a couple of years before the city came
in and swept it and destroyed everybody's houses and forced them,
you know into again kind of a series of camping situations. UM. Yeah,
(09:27):
which is you know, you get these It's it's very
frustrating because there's this understanding that like, well, we want
them in, and part of the understanding you get from
a number of cities is like, well, we do want
them in one place, and we want them in something
that's more permanent than you know, a bunch of tents.
But if they set that up on their own and
have autonomy and have the ability to like exist with
(09:50):
any kind of personal freedom. Then we don't want that,
and we will send armed men and to break it up. Yeah,
Like the city is like, oh yeah, well I don't.
I genuinely do not think of Dallas wants to house people. UM.
Otherwise the Office of Homeless Solutions simply would not exist
and they wouldn't have a way to just have money
(10:15):
sitting around UM, and all those people would lose their jobs,
you know, because it's not housing people. You know, people
are like, how do you do that? It's not hard,
it's not difficult. The city is spending what two billion dollars.
I'm renovating the Convention Center that could house every house
this person in Dallas for years, you know. But but
(10:37):
then we wouldn't be able to have all of the
wonderful things. Someone who lived in Dallas fifteen years. I
can remember one, maybe even two times when I went
to the convention Center. What would we do? I think?
Maybe one time? What's wrong with it to where we had?
Like it's Dallas prioritizes developers or anything else, and that
(11:02):
is more than UM a parent in how they treat
the house's population. UM. They're definitely because it's like my
my problem, right, Okay, if the city, the city is
gonna do sweeps, that's something that I can't really necessarily
stop them from doing on my own, but we can
(11:22):
and alleviate some of the effects of you know, um,
but when this is sweeping people in the heat like that,
we're in the cold, elderly just aid people. It's like,
y'all really are just telling them to die and the
least you could do. And I've emailed Marcy Jackson, who's
(11:42):
the community outreach chair for OHS, you know, She's been like, well,
they can go to the shelter. It's it's about it's
within three miles. Now, I'm like, you you're gonna walk
three You're telling somebody who's elder than they able to
walk three miles in a hundred and seven degree heat
(12:04):
to get to a cooling station that is only open
to like five Well, uh, there's a lot of cognitive
distance in the city. Just for a little bit of
reference too, because like we have cooling stations and stuff
(12:26):
up in Portland and you have similar problems. One thing
that is a benefit to folks in a place like
Oregon is that after five six pm when like this
cooling stations start to cool down. It actually does cool
down here, Like it gets cool at night even when
it's a hundred outside. That doesn't happen in Dallas during
the Yeah, I've literally had it be triple digits at
(12:49):
midnight and Dallas, Texas, like that's the place it is. No,
so you're still it's still a threat to life and
limb even when the sun's not beating down on you. Yeah,
sometimes I was calling shelters. I know, certainly, like here
we have a bunch of issues with shelters and cooling
shelters and stuff like you don't have privacy, You can't
bring your pets. They want you to look all your
(13:11):
possessions up somewhere else. There are like a number of
other things that really limit people's ability to feel safe accessing.
I don't know if it's the same there, but like
it's not that there's necessarily a place where someone would
feel safe and I'm not going there. It's when I
made that clear, pets are a big issue. And this
is something that again when I was at Nicholsville, people
would point out that, like folks would accuse them of
(13:32):
being like abusive because they had a cat or a dog,
you know, that was living with them in the encampment.
And they'd be like, well, number one, like it's okay
for me to live this way, but it's not okay
for like a cat or a dog. And also just
like do I not deserve companionship and love in my life?
Like this is what this animal is one of the
is one of the things that helps keep me. And
(13:53):
I talked to a number of folks who got back
into housing who were like, if we had not had
our cat with us, like I don't know that we
would have made it, but because just having that animal
with us like helped, Like that's it's for the same reason.
Everybody has animals, right, Like every single houseless person that
has a pet, has a service animal, has a that
is a service animal. As far as I'm concerned, would
(14:15):
you separate somebody who is disabled from their wheelchair or
would you separate somebody from there like their service animal,
their dog that they need, you know, And it's like
when you're out there, Um, I know that a lot
of people have dogs for comfort, but also dogs are protection,
they are security in such a dangerous environment, um, where
(14:38):
people are always you know, like it's just it's just
it is unfathomable how much trauma UM goes into being houseless,
especially in Dallas, in places like dala. UM. So I'd
like to ask you a little bit, so you have
been Is this kind of the first collaboration this last
(15:00):
week or so, let's say it with your chest has
had with the the Elm Fork John Brown Gun Club.
Had you guys been working together prior to this? Uh? Yeah, yeah,
Like we UM originally met members of Elm Fork when
UM Camp Ronda first started, uh back in UM and
we were collaborating on like getting people's supplies, UM tents
(15:22):
and things like that. I would run laundry UM with
my org uh and like yeah, we were. We just
you know, always collaborated to make sure like the people
could get what they need if somebody had supplied somebody
able to show up and we couldn't, you know, UM
just working together. Yeah, And I'm curious, UM, could you
(15:45):
kind of walk us through sort of how what you
see is the benefit of having folks who are visibly
armed UM for this kind of for these kind of actions,
Like how did how did number one sweep defense tend
to work? Before y'all were doing that, and how has
that altered kind of the way in which you're seeing
this activism like take effect UM as far as I know,
(16:13):
people from members of ELM four because they have always
shown up with UM firearms in some capacity, whether it's
concealed or open, but UM there was a noticeable difference
with the open carry UM. I know that back in
February when one of our other camps was getting swept
UM and they showed up like afterwards, we had a
(16:36):
meeting with the director of UM HOMEO Solutions, Christine Crosley.
She sucks UM and uh. She was like, people were like,
we were hearing reports of people that were openly armed,
and we want to we really care about the safety
of like the unhoused residents out there. And I was like,
(16:58):
they were more afraid of the ops then of the
five people out here with with rifles. And that's that's something.
It's like, if you're going to show up with twelve
dudes with guns, what's the problem with some of us
showing up with like a little something just in case?
You know, the state should not be the only one
(17:21):
to have access to firearms. That is very dangerous. UM
but also I don't mean that in a to a
kind of way. If that makes sensitive. Yeah, that does
kind of bring up an interesting point, which is if
you're showing as you're showing up kind of in this
capacity with both activists to kind of help folks with
(17:41):
their stuff, with with laundry and other needs, but also
people who are are carrying are fifteens and wearing plate carriers.
I imagine there's like a degree to which you are
trying to give people a heads up before, just so
they don't be like, oh, suddenly there's spokes with guns.
What's going on? Right? Can you kind of walk us
through the community outreach explaining sort of like how you
how you actually go about letting people know what's going
(18:03):
to be happening and stuff and and what the folks
showing up are doing well when it comes to sweeps, um,
And normally I focus a lot on just making sure
that people are okay and defending them. UM. When I
I do not necessarily like ask for work to show
(18:28):
up with guns. I'm just more like I assume if
y'all are going to be there, they are going to
be um, you know, and sometimes there was usually the
residents are like the residents have some of the residents
have firearms themselves, you know, so they're like, well aware, Um,
(18:49):
there are some cases where like people will get a
little bit anxious about it, and you know, we kind
of have to be like, if you really don't want
the guns here, then that's fine, we can move them.
It in the past with this track record, like usually
the city kind of backs off a little bit when
they know that y'all are actutely protected, you know, because um,
(19:10):
the city is the city is a bully. They really
do like picking on people who the most vulnerable of us,
you know. Um, And so lately the guns have been
seeming to have them back off a little bit. I
know when they pulled up, Like when ELMP pulled up
(19:30):
and hopped out the car with the rifles, all of
the cops at we squatted up into like a little
a little i don't know, pick circle and they started talking, uh,
and they were genuinely like, what do we do hold
on me when we haven't? You know? Yeah, And it's
I mean that's kind of the that's kind of the
story as we're coming into it right now, which is
(19:52):
they were supposed to be a sweep what is it
five days ago now Friday? Yeah, almost a week and
y'all have been showing up a couple of times in
that period to help people get there, get things together
and whatnot and get which is an important the fact
that you're helping them kind of move and and doing
it more in kind of their own time frame as
opposed to the city shows up and you've got to
(20:14):
like grab what you can or lose everything. Um. Is
important because you're also you're not just showing up with
activists with guns and saying like the city we're not
going to let any like no one's going to move,
and we're like we're we're drawing a line in the sand,
which is not would not be a particularly safe call.
I wouldn't think my my main priority out there because
(20:37):
there's a lot of black and brown bodies out there
and people is making sure they are safe. And Um,
even before this last one, like a lot of us
were concerned about the guns because like we didn't want
things to escalate, and we never know with police, sometimes
they get really excited and sometimes they back off. It's
(21:01):
really uh really don't know. UM, So we were also
taking that into consideration. UM, and I was kind of
like the unfork know, like listen and there's a lot
of black and brown people out here, and you don't
want to escalate anything and you know, put people in danger. UM,
(21:22):
And it seems like this time the city I didn't
really want to mess with that. So that's good, but
it's always important to keep that in mind any time
you have firearms population. And I'm curious, um Bubble, can
you talk a little bit about the how this kind
of organizing is sort of different than the stuff you've
(21:45):
been doing at at counter protesting events. Like what are
kind of the different things that y'all are keeping in
mind as you as you make action plans for days
like this compared to when you know you're showing up
to at a at a protest to kind of counter
groups of Proud Boys or whatever. Yeah, it's pretty different, um,
in that when we're doing security for marches or um,
(22:09):
you know, protecting Pride events. Uh, it's not like a
direct confrontation with so it's it's a bit it's a
bit different. It's a little bit more high stakes. UM
when we do stop the sweep things, you know, we
want to we want to push back, but at the
same um, you know, not be the first to cross
(22:31):
any lines. Um. So it is, you know, it is.
It is a more sensitive situation. I think it requires
different kind of planning. Um. And of course there's there's
all these bystanders, there's all the residents there who were
there to help that we don't want to endanger in
any way. Um, like Danny was saying. I actually had
(22:52):
um what ended up being a pretty cool conversation with
a resident afterward. But he was kind of an organizer
in the camp and he was talking to me and
he said, you know, I don't think we want the guns, like,
we don't want any trouble. And I leaned over to
him and I whispered to him, Look, we're just here
(23:12):
with guns to try to get the cops to back off. Um.
I think they're actually backing off now, because we've actually
just heard the cops that we're going to leave. I said,
I think they're backing off. We're gone, don't worry about it.
And he said, wait, wait, you know, don't leave yet,
Wait till they leave. Um. And now that that's uh,
(23:33):
I am interested, like as the uh, the actual folks
showing up armed, bubble, do you guys have kind of
a like standard set of responses and stuff that you
work through ahead of time to kind of explain things
to people and make sure everyone's on the same page
in terms of how they're doing it. Um. Yeah, we
have some of that worked out. That's an evolving thing
(23:54):
where we're trying to standardize. Yeah, work a long time
with a core group of people that knows each other
really well. Um, so we have like seen each other
at you know, dozens of these things, and we know
how each other operate. With some newer people coming in,
you know, we are working now on kind of standardizing
(24:16):
those responses and uh, you know, sharing our past experiences
and are thinking and all that. Um. Now, question for
for both Slash either of you. As you've gotten more
into doing sweep defenses, what have been some of kind
of the lessons learned Things that have been like, Okay,
we went into it thinking like this was a good
(24:36):
idea and it turned out that like that doesn't work
very well, so we've had to do this like just
things that have kind of um, best practices that have
kind of evolved over time doing this. Um honestly a
lot of it A lot when when tensions are really
high like that, UM, because you come to sweeps like
(24:59):
I'm the one kind of like dealing with UM a
lot of like overseeing and stuff like that, and when
tensions are really high like that. Honestly, the best thing
is harm reduction. Harm Reduction is at the pinnacle of
it's at the core of like whatever we do UH,
(25:20):
and part of that is meeting people where they're at
UM and making sure that we UM help the people.
I show up, I shift you not. One of the
best things that we started doing is showing up with
packs of Newports on God. It makes it a lot UM.
You know, when you're going through trauma like that, UM
(25:42):
and someone hands you a cigarette, that's something that not
only helps you kind of regulate yourself when you're experiencing
this high stress situation where you're being evicted from your
home and you're gonna lose your stuff and you're afraid
people are gonna steals, and it's a whole lot that
helps bring people back and it makes it a lot
(26:02):
easier for us to UM work with people and UM
still maintain the bonds that we've created and maintain the
levels of trust that we have with the community. UM. Literally,
some simple things like handing out cigarettes, um, during because
that's a way that we're like, hey, we're here for you,
(26:23):
we know what you need. Yeah, and we're not We're
also we're not here to like judge what's best for you,
you know, and do some like nanny state ship like
you need a cigarette right now, right like it's stressful,
not really like hell, I would need a cigarette to
you know. At that point, um, there was somebody who
was like, you're asking people for newports. You need to
(26:44):
stop doing that, Like that's really unhealthy. And I thought
you were trying to say these people and it's like,
I'm not trying to say for starters. We're not Captain America.
We're not no avengers, Okay. We are regular people fulfilling
a responsibility. And that responsibility is to be there for
our neighbors. That's how movements happen, that's how anything happens.
(27:09):
And all of that is rooted in you know, indigenous
um communalism and theory and stuff like that that I
think is really important. It's just fulfilling that responsibility and
being there for people and when it comes to because
you know, we always try to provide folks listening in
other towns and stuff who may be like inspired by
(27:30):
this with options for how they might move forward on
trying to replicate some of y'all's successes. If people are
looking at okay, I would like to help do sweep
defensive I would like to do, you know, work kind
of like this in my own community. How do you
recommend because obviously there's you know, how how to build
organizations is another matter. But like, if you've got a
(27:51):
group together to help folks, how do you recommend kind
of starting the process of introducing yourself Because you can't
just like show up and be like hey, like just
be like, hey, we're gonna certainly not with guns, but yeah,
and don't um. You have to develop a really really
strong report with your community first, and you also need
(28:13):
to make sure that's your community. Like you know, UM,
I I've spent a really long time perioding UM relationships
with the unhoused populations of Health Dallas, UM, and that
took literal years, you know, UM. Expecting people to trust
(28:33):
you off the bat, and expecting people to just like
be like, oh, you're one of the good guys. It's
not going to happen, especially if you're white, like honestly,
if we be in if we're keeping in a book,
because like, there's a whole lot of black and brown
people out there in these vulnerable communities, and usually the
white people that they see are the white people who
are talking down to them and not treating them as
(28:54):
human beings. The main thing that people, the people out
there are need most is consistency from you, even if
you don't even if one day you don't have anything,
and you can just hand out water there with them
and developing community that way, you know. And one of
the things that people tell me a lot is that
just it was it's been vering shocking to me how
(29:15):
much I've heard it. Is people are like, you don't
talk to us, it's like how other people talk to us.
You talk to us like people, And the sheer amount
of time. I was really shocked by how many times
I've actually heard that, because I'm like, you know, I
don't really think I talked much differently from anybody else.
(29:35):
But then when I go out there and see other people,
just random people handing out macgriddles or whatever, you know,
there's definitely a switch. Like if you were talking to
a pet or to a child, you know, Um, like
you pity something, people will not want you around because honestly,
(29:55):
they don't want your pity. What they want is bottles
of water. You know. If you're just only showing up
when ship's going down, um, you don't actually have the
people trust. And I think if anything, that hurts it
a little bit because it's like, oh, I am only
here to make you feel good about yourself. You want
(30:16):
to be the one saving everybody. It's like you've got
to dismantle your savior complex first before you do anything.
And I think it's good to talk about, um, kind
of how this actually how these actions actually look on
the ground, because again, the thing that sort of has
gone semiviral on Twitter has been the fact that like,
(30:37):
you know, people with guns stood off the cops. But
if you're imagining some sort of like big armed standoff,
like that's not how this has looked. Which is the
thing I liked about the Dallas Morning News article. Um,
which we will do you mean the article or the
opinion piece? Sorry, yes, UM, I am pulling it up
(30:58):
right now just to have that we'll have it. There's
an opinion already. Oh any time on howse people pop
up into discourse someone is ready to write again. Yeah,
it's the the article, the article armed activists block Dallas
workers from cleaning a homeless camp. That's an acceptable opinion.
That's that's not the one I was talking about. That
(31:20):
what I'm talking about is titled uh and it is
a news article Dallas delays moving homeless camp after activists
show up, which did a good job of not kind
of over emphasizing the armed part and talking about the
actual work y'all were doing in the community. I was
kind of impressed with it, especially given the Dallas Morning
News is most recent like general trends, shall we say,
(31:42):
and considering their opinion piece they published yesterday. Yeah, I
hadn't seen that one. Could you talk a little bit
about how these these actions have actually on the ground
during the day of Yeah, so on the ground, um,
(32:04):
some people arrived very early, and you really never know
when the cops in the city are going to show up.
So Elm Fork showed up close to nine and they
are already like four cops there, um, and that you know,
that's unfortunate. We probably should have shown up earlier. We
(32:26):
you know, if if we're going to go to protect
the other activists, you know, you don't want to leave
the unarmed activists exposed to um police violence. Um, but
either way, you know, we we formed up. It was
maybe two unarmed activists for every armed activists, and we
discussed what to do. Some people decided to block off
(32:48):
the streets with their vehicles. UM. The cops were there
for a solid hour and a half before h Almost
Solution or the Office of Homeless Solutions and Code Compliance
started arriving. So by that time, UM, a good number
(33:08):
of armed activists were there and the cops had been
discussing amongst themselves, UM, you know, whatever it is that
they were talking about. But when oh HS and Code
got there, Uh, they talked with the cops for about
thirty minutes and then they started leaving. During that time,
(33:28):
the unarmed activists were packing things up, UM get you know,
getting people ready to move if those people wanted to move. Uh.
One thing to to kind of go back a little bit.
One thing that we've learned carrying is it's very difficult
to do the same things that we were doing as
(33:48):
unarmed activists. UM. You know, we we don't really want
to be carrying tents and stuff while also trying to
negotiate you know, having a rifle in our arms. So
oh uh, you know, there's kind of a division of
labor there. But you know, before two hours had even passed,
basically the sweep was called off. The city and the
(34:10):
cops left and the mutual aid work continued throughout the
rest of the day. Uh, ELM Fork had some members
switching out, you know, some people had to go to work.
Some people arrived around noon that was kind of the
main switch out point and uh, you know a lesser
number of people but still a significant amount stayed there
(34:31):
until four or five pm. Whenever M four comes with guns.
The main thing that I like to have them do
is surveillance and be watching so that way we can
focus on UM having other volunteers actually help people, you know,
and like have them help them move and stuff. And
the surveillance definitely helps because what happens when the cops
(34:52):
leave and when the city leaves is that they'll still
have people like watching UM and driving around and trying
to surveil us UM and so having more eyes on
that situation and having them know like, yeah, we're still
here is really helpful. Great, UM, thank you. Did anybody
else have additional questions? To ask James you had one
or two more things. Yeah, I'm like, I'm interested in
(35:15):
and maybe asking bubble this because I'm just looking at
the pictures on the on the Dallas Morning News story
And incredibly they didn't lead with a picture of you
all sort of suited and booted in full battle rattle,
which I think is good on their part. But how
do you present an event like this? Right? Like, obviously
(35:35):
I think we should probably mention that, Like, I'm guessing
it's legal to open carry where you are, so you're
not like immediately criming and therefore provoking a superfine confrontation
with the police. Um. Although obviously the police are always
turning up armed um and that always brings violence into
the equation. But are you like masks? Do you full
(35:56):
like this person I'm seeing is like masked helmet god
plate carrier? H Is that Jeremany? How you present or
is that left up to individuals? I want to Um,
we try to be pretty uniform, but it definitely varies
by action. I think the last time we came out armed, um,
(36:17):
we were not in helmets and plate carriers. Um. But
you know everyone has one now and uh, we discussed
it beforehand we decided to go that way. Um, we
try not to park directly where we're going to get seen,
(36:37):
you know, if all possible, Um, because we do need
to get out Europe, you know, walkover in all our stuff. Um.
But yeah, I think you know, for a lot of
actions now, including security, that's kind of been our uh
go to way of presenting. The full masts are very important.
(36:58):
We've moved from like you know, medical style masks to
all the clava style masks just to get more skin coverage,
protect our identities better. Yeah, it makes sense. And one
other thing I just wanted to ask, and perhaps like
explaining in a context, it might might not be read
of it in Texas, I don't know. Um, in California,
(37:20):
at least you need two proofs of address to earn
a firearm right. Um, and if you're unhoused you might
not have those. And therefore people are alienated from what
it's theoretically they're right. Um, whether you want to see
that as a universe or right or constitutional right? Is
that the case there? Or these people? But if they
wanted to Texas doesn't give a fun Texas, you don't
(37:43):
you don't have to file a four or four seven
three to buy a gun in the state of Texas.
My gun literally was just given to me by somebody.
I didn't have to do a hidle transfer or nothing. Like.
Guns are so easy to get in Texas. It's actually
really scary private sale. You can basically do whatever you want. Yeah,
it is hard not to wind up owning a gun
(38:03):
in the States. Easier than owning a place to stay. Definitely,
way easier. Yeah, the country method okay, magnificent. Okay, well yeah,
not the case in other states. And I guess to know,
and and nothing that we've said here should be taken
(38:24):
as legal advice, are e, how to protest or partake
an armed activism, because that can vary, that varies wildly
based on your zip code. And everything we've talked about
today is a massive series of felonies and a number
of other parts of the United States, like, you're not
you're not going to be providing sweep defense in New
York City in this manner. You know, you do this
(38:45):
where I live in Borda, le show up into consideration. Yeah,
so take obviously, I mean that's a big part of
what you're saying, though, is you have to take the
situation on the ground. You have to take the situation
with these people's individuals into You can't just you can't
just go in and impose like this is how we're
going to do sweet defense. You have to go in
there like being willing to learn and adapt because, um,
(39:09):
this is not you know, your day to day life,
and it is life for folks there, and you have
to come in willing to learn and understand what they
need rather than like what you think they need. Yeah,
the we never know what the city is gonna show
up with each time. Like the Monday sweep before this
past one, it was all marshals. It wasn't even act
(39:32):
like regular dp D. It was all marshals. They were
ready to arrest. They had bulldozers and cranes and all
types of ship um. And that was also that was
kind of oftening because I was like, wow, y'all are
being mad aggressive this time. I think we just pissed
them off too much to the point where they were like,
(39:53):
we have to be you know, meaner about it. Uh,
I mean, but we hain't been arrested. Yeah, fingers crossed.
I do want to win. I do want to mention
one more thing. I know, we've talked about how this
kind of pertains to Dallas, and you know, had the
similar you know situations on increasing sweeps across the country
(40:15):
in Portland. I think last month there was an episode
on this show about a homeless encampment in Ohio and
in terms of like similar stuff that has happened to
kind of demonstrate this is like, you know, this is
the thing going on all across the country. UH. There
was a really interesting situation in Boise, Idaho earlier this
year that we may want to cover more in depth
(40:37):
in the future. But in January, when it was freezing outside,
protesters and UH and homeless people launched an encampment in
front of the Boise State Capital, UH to kind of
both provide you know, some type of shelter and community
to help keep each other warm, but also in front
of the capital as like a protest to demand access
(40:59):
to shelter um. You know, and when while in the
middle of like a pretty bad housing crisis and as
it's freezing outside, UH, people at the camp faced a
lot of basically NonStop harrassment from the state, whether that's
police or like state state police. UH. They also faced
a lot of UH problems from far right militia groups.
(41:21):
The Idaho Liberty Dogs showed up to harass people. There
was you know, militia showing up with guns. UM, so
you can see like another instance where something that you
know arm where another instance where armed community defense could
be UH could be a part in trying to keep
of situations like that from not escalating if done properly. Obviously,
(41:44):
if done improperly, that can escalate situations. It's up to
you know, you have to make sure that you're with
people who are you, who you know, who you trust,
and who are responsible. But it's just it's it's another
instance of stuff like this happening. UH anti fascists and
other activists were able to push we're we're able to
keep conflicts from these militia groups to be relatively low
(42:05):
at at the at the encampment and after a few
months and like courts were trying to shut the protest.
That was unsuccessful because of certain laws around camping on
on like capital grounds for protests. But after a few
months the protest was able to end and the city
(42:25):
is now been pushed by the protest to open up
possibly hundreds of units of shelter in the near future.
So you see other instances of of these types of
protests that you know rely on, a lot of like
radical mutual aid, a lot of resistance to the state violence,
a lot of a lot of resistance to far right
violence actually being some like successful. Um, So there's a
(42:49):
lot of places to learn from in this type of
thing around homeless encampments and encountering state violence. Would recommend,
uh it's going down, has a lot of good coverage
of the Boys Idaho thing. So yeah, that's just like
a whole whole other angle to this, to this sort
of trend that we've been seeing the past year. I
(43:10):
would like to say that you are not Fidel Castro.
You know, you are not the revolutionary leader. You are
not the one you know like, and you need to
keep that in mind when you're moving in these spaces
and doing this type of work. Is if your goal
is to try and be like the guy you know, uh,
(43:30):
that does way more harm than good and that's really
important to keep in mind. UM and dismantling your savior
complex as part of that. UM. Of course, in that case,
you know, the house is people uh, residents were you know,
consenting to it and things like that, but please do
take into account the amount of danger that you are
(43:51):
putting very the most vulnerable populations into. Um, it is
not necessarily a good idea, We're morally okay idea to
uh make houseless people into your people's army, you know
that is not I want to make sure that everybody
(44:13):
you know listening is also well aware of like, that
is the wrong way to go about this. The people's
army should be people like us, not the most vulnerable
of us, because they are already fighting very hard. So
that means that's like it's the same thing like saying
why people should be at the front lines protecting black
and brown people during protests. It's the same exact concept.
(44:35):
You protect the most vulnerable of the group. You do
not make them, um, you know, your army and try
to convert them into something and be the leader of
that either. Um, that is that is not the way
to go about that. Yeah, if you're if you're if
you're entering into this relationship with the plan that like
this is a way for us to build power for
(44:55):
whatever and as opposed to we're here to like help
these people, Um, then you're you're putting them second to
whatever your political goals are, which is bad broadly speaking,
I mean, and I know I know at least in
the case of the idea of of in the Ohio
encampment that we talked about earlier this month, UM, and
(45:18):
the IDA who want as well, a large number of
people who are like leading up that project and in
prominent ortization rules were houses people who are living at
those camps. Like, it is very important to have people
who are like you don't want to go in as
someone with stable housing and be like, Okay, I'm in
charge of this thing now. No, it's like the people
who are actually experiencing it need to be the critical
(45:40):
role in actually how it functions. Yeah, and there we've
had not we but like there was somebody who tried
to do that, um, and it definitely did more harm
than good. Um. Putting your political goals over just the
people is always going to fail every single time. Yeah,
(46:02):
listen to the people. If they're not leading it, don't
do it. You know, like at that point, your only
priorities should be getting them what they need and defending
them if necessary, trying to lead stuff and you know,
have them putting them into more vulnerable situations than they're
already at without like fully being transparent with people, or
(46:25):
being transparent with all the risks involved, you know, like
it's that's real, grimy, real, not okay behavior. UM. So
that's just something I also want to caution people against.
And all of that definitely roots back to dismantling your
savior complex and there's um a lot of good um
(46:48):
resources out there um for starting with that process. If
you have not already some of them wrong with your
chest Instagram, I'll kick it out and follow us or
something I don't know. Yeah, yeah, do you wanna I think,
I mean, I'm I'm I'm at out of questions personally,
do we want to um? Uh end with kind of yeah,
(47:10):
how folks can follow you and stay in touch with
what y'all are doing or potentially even support you. Yeah,
we are at say it with your chest dt X
on Instagram. UM. I also organized with the Dallas Liberation Movement,
which is a bigger or that mobilizes across the nine
(47:32):
thousand square miles of DFW. UM. I run that with
three of my good friends and organizers. Uh. And so
you can follow us at Dallas Liberation m v MT
on Instagram. UM Oh if you're willing, able and financially stable,
throw us some cash, lease and listen to black women.
(47:54):
Listen to black and indigenous women. That's all I got,
all right, um, bubble, did you have anything to add? Yeah,
I think it's important to have diverse collection of groups. Um.
You know, Danny's a hero, she's out there almost every day. UM.
For ELM Fork. We do a lot of trainings, we
(48:14):
do a lot of classes, um that take up our resources,
but we have these longstanding relationships so that we can
support each other um when need be. UM. You know,
take care of your take care of your spaces, take
care of your communities. Like Danny said, UM, focus on
the people in those spaces, wther that be uh and
(48:36):
housed people or your own organizers and activists. You know,
you gotta keep you gotta keep things safe. It's hot
out here. There's been a lot of stress and and conflicts,
and you always have to practice UM restorative justice and accountability. UM.
(48:56):
And you know, just keep fighting, keep keep loving each
other there all right, Well that's gonna do it for
everybody here at It could happen here today. Uh yeah,
go go go do something good. It could happen here
(49:16):
as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media
dot com, or check us out on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts,
you can find sources for It could happen here, updated
monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks
for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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