October 29, 2024 • 49 mins
This week, Tommy is joined by actress Bethany Joy Lenz who became a household name by playing the beloved role of Haley James Scott in One Tree Hill. Joy and her co-star James Lafferty became cemented in pop culture as one of the most popular television couples ever. Her new memoir, “Dinner for Vampires,” is out now and chronicles her spending a decade in a cult, and her quest to break free. Publicly, she was the “it” girl that people adored from One Tree Hill, rising to the height of international fame. But privately, she felt like she was falling deeper and deeper into a cult that she couldn’t break free from…until one day she had enough. Today, Joy opens up about how she went from going to a weekly bible study to being fully immersed in a cult, the red flags about this group that she now realizes she ignored, the first moment she really began feeling being isolated from her friend and family, joining Once Tree Hill and juggling her work life with the cult, what makes her smile when she thinks back on her fan-favorite role on the series, that iconic kissing in the rain scene, why she wishes she could go back in time and give co-star Sophia Bush a really big hug, the latest on a potential reboot, why thinking about the kindness from her cast after going through a difficult time makes her emotional, the moment she realized the cult took over $2 million from her, how she was able to most past feeling self-loathing to start forgiving herself, what she wants to say to her parents for the first time and so much more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, guys, welcome to I've never said this before with me,
Tommy di Dario. This episode is perhaps one of my
favorite conversations that I've ever had on my show because
it is so real and raw and she is so vulnerable.
That she I'm referring to is the amazing and brilliant
Bethany Joy Lenz, who is my guest today and you
know when you love her From her starring role as
(00:21):
Haley James Scott in the fan favorite series of One
Tree Hill, her character is beloved, and Joy and her
co star James Lafferty went on to play one of
the most popular TV couples in pop culture history. But
while Joy was in one of the most popular TV
shows in the world, she was also getting more and
more involved with a very dangerous cult. Her new memoir,
Jennerfer Vampires is out right now and it chronicles her
(00:44):
spending a decade in a cult and her quest to
break free. Publicly, she was the girl that people adored
from One Tree Hill, rising to the heights of international fame,
but privately, she felt like she was falling deeper and
deeper into a cult that she couldn't break free from,
until one day she had enough. I thank Joy for
being so open and honest with me in this conversation.
(01:05):
And I truly believe she is going to help so
many people by sharing her story. So let's see if
we can get Joy to say something that she has
never said before. Joy, how you doing today?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Good?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
How are you? I am so fantastic. Thank you for
joining the show. I'm so excited to have you, especially
now that I know you were from New Jersey. I
love a Jersey connection.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I do too. Jersey people always seem to find each
other somehow. I feel like it happens all the time.
I'm in the grocery store and a parking lot and like, hmmm,
you're Jersey, aren't you. I hear that accent.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
That's right, We're good people. We're good people. Won't welcome
to the show. I am so excited to talk to
you because we have quite a lot to dive into.
I have your book right next to me. I devour this,
like I wrote you on Instagram. I DMD you because
I was so just captivated by your story and enthralled
by your story. And I have to be like super
(02:03):
honest for a minute with you and tell you that
before hearing about your story. Myself, like many people, probably
kind of had this misconception about people that get involved
in cults, and you automatically think, well, how like, I
could never allow that to happen to me, and they
(02:23):
didn't see warning signs, And admittedly and embarrassingly, that's kind
of what I would think when I would watch documentaries
or read stories. And I'm somebody who's so open minded
and compassionate, but that did kind of cross my mind.
Then I read your memoir and the way you lay
it out, it is a must read for anyone who
is going through any sort of abusive relationship, whether that's
(02:44):
psychological and emotional, physical, and for anyone who has to
witness that from afar right. So, I think it's such
an important part of your life that you open up about,
and I'm just so thrilled that it's going to be
out there. So, first, thank you. Let me check in
on you, because you've been doing a lot of press.
You're on the cover of People magazine, Your story and
(03:07):
your business is out there. So how are you feeling
with this all out?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Thank you for everything you've said. I really appreciate that.
Thank you, and thank you for asking that I'm taking
it a day at a time. There are days when
it feels overwhelming. I feel like I am prone to
I'm someone who's just prone to think that there's somebody
mad at me at all times, Like somewhere out there,
someone's mad at me. I've heard someone's feelings. I forgot
(03:33):
to call somebody back, I said the wrong thing. I
always live with that anxiety, and it's a constant thing.
So to put so much of myself out there and
know that I really did my best to respect everyone
involved and to share my truth because I think it'll
really help people, there is a huge element that I'm
(03:55):
living with of just like, oh god, I really hope
that this is all okay, and I really hope I
didn't hurt anybody, and I really hope that that it's
received well. And So to give you a really long
winded answer, Tommy, I'm doing okay. I'm taking it a
day at a time, and I'm having a great day today,
and I'm really happy to be here talking with you.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Oh good, we love a great day. And I totally
could understand how you're feeling. All of those things. You
kind of sum up this entire chapter of your life
through a brilliant line. I believe you said this to
Katherine McPhee at a party and you said Bible study
went sideways. I read that and was like, oh my god,
(04:41):
I couldn't love this girl more.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
So, it's so funny that you pick that out.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I love it, Yes, I did. I'm very quirky and
weird and I love a good sense of here mercyll
I loved that so much. So before we dive into everything,
I guess, talk to me about the moment before you
join that Bible study to being fully ingrained into that cult,
like walking through real quick, how that all happened?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Okay. The truncated version is I grew up in a
very normal Western society, charismatic Christian community, non denominational culturally Christian.
I was used to Bible studies on Wednesday nights or
Sunday nights, or It was just a way of people
(05:30):
in a faith community connecting, keeping their community close, deepening
their relationships to each other and to God. It's pretty
normal in pretty much every faith community that I know of,
in and out of Christianity. Every religion that I know
has some version of this, and so that seemed very
normal to me when I moved to LA and I
was feeling lonely because I had left New York City
(05:51):
and I didn't really know anybody and was just trying
to make friends. And I got invited to this home
group Bible study that sounded like every other one that
I'd ever been to, And to be fair, when it started,
I think it was. I think it was all pretty normal,
just young professionals with a lot in common creatively, with
(06:13):
a lot in common in our faith, and we lived
in the same area and just wanted to get together
and get to know each other. And then it took
about a year, well actually I was in it for
about six months, six to eight months maybe before a
pastor from another state was invited to come speak at
the group, and then slowly began kind of infiltrating and
(06:35):
becoming a just a regular at the group. He would
fly in from out of state, and he didn't have
a church at the time. He had been well you'll
have to read the book to find out. I found
out later why he didn't have a church anymore. But nevertheless,
we saw him as an older, wiser man who was
(06:58):
an ordained past stir and somebody who could really give
us some wisdom that we as, recognizing that we were
young and still inexperienced in many ways, maybe needed some guidance.
Unfortunately we just chose the wrong person.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
That sets it up very well. And you mentioned being
lonely when you got out to LA. I feel the
loneliness every time I go to lam in New Yorker.
I've lived here my whole life, and I feel that.
I always say it's my husband when I come back, like,
how was your trip good? But God, I always feel
a little lonely here. Yeah, you felt that when you
got out there. You also were starting to compare yourself
(07:34):
to some other actors in the business and maybe weren't
feeling as attractive as they were, as pretty as they were.
And you even said that quote, I was an alley
cat still cleaning dumpster lettuce out of my pause, which
is hysterical but also kind of heartbreaking. It's like, no, no, girl,
you have all the same value. But I understand how
(07:55):
comparison syndrome works. I've been there too. So would you
say loneliness was a driving force for you to I
don't want to say have blinders on to what was
going on with the Bible study turn cult, but to
keep going with it all.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
For sure, I was so desperate to be seen. I'm
so desperate for community. I'd been wanting that my whole life.
I was an only child. My parents were wonderful people
that had a lot of their own tumultuous issues going on,
and I isolated myself. I got really used to my
own company, which is a gift in some ways, but
I also just it was hard for me to make
(08:34):
friends because we moved around a lot, and then I
was in the theater, and that you know, as a
theater person, you make close friends for three months and
then you move on to a new group of friends.
So there was this longing for consistency that I just
had a really hard time finding a cure for. And
when I became a part of this group, when I
(08:56):
started connecting with these people, it felt like it was
going so much deeper than just the sort of surface
relationships that you have when you know that you're going
to be moving on. And I think we all have
this need for some spot in our lives. There are
(09:18):
holes that need to be filled based on our rearing,
based on relationships that we've had when we were young.
There's these sort of very Freudian basic needs that if
they're not all met, we look to fill them, and
we need them so badly to be filled that we're
willing to make excuses for things that maybe are red
(09:39):
flags because we just really really want to feel the
thing that's going to make us feel better in the moment.
Does that make sense or was that? No?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
That absolutely makes sense. I think it's easy to ignore
red flags when you want to believe so badly that
something is so true. What was one of those early
red flags you think you maybe missed?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Hmmm, well, now, I mean, gosh, in retrospect, I can
I can certainly see that anyone, anyone who is just
so immediately intimate like it just dives right in with you.
I'm not talking about somebody who's willing to have an
(10:20):
emotional conversation, or somebody who's willing to dive in deep
in terms of like philosophy, or just being willing to
be a friend to a stranger and connect. I'm talking
about somebody who's willing to dive deep into intimacy in
friendship or romantic relationship on a consistent basis without having
(10:41):
really built trust. Is a red flag you just it's
that's codependence or narcissism, attempting to manipulate you. I just
don't think there's any way around it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So I have I have.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Big red flags at about people who are just like
super they just want to go in and get really close,
really fast. I'm like, sum's up, something's up.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, no, And that's that's good intuition. I mean, I've
I've dealt with that myself, and you don't want to
go through life cold. But it's good to have a
little bit of a perceptive eye, you know. So I
think I think nothing's wrong with that. And like you said,
this group, their basis was manipulation and isolation, and you know,
(11:28):
my God like wanting to isolate you from friends and
families so that you're so co dependent on only them
and that they are the only group of people in
your life, which it's manipulation. One oh one. So do
you remember one of the first times where you felt
like that happened, where you really felt like you were
starting to isolate away from the people in your former
(11:49):
life to blend more with these people.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah. I think the thing is that I didn't not
really notice it. Then I can tell you what it
was now, but it's still hard to see back then.
But yeah, I remember. There's a character in my book
called Camille. She's a British actress that I was friends
with in New York and she also moved out to
LA and I invited her to come to the group
and start hanging out. So she spent some time with
(12:14):
us there, and she told us me and my dad
actually later in conversation that she was to remember being
at a meeting with us, one of the group meetings,
where I was told that I really shouldn't talk to
my dad anymore. And when she said that, it triggered
this memory. I was like, oh, my gosh, I do remember.
(12:37):
I don't remember being explicitly told that, but it's wild
that that's what she heard and she could see it,
and she, as you'll read in the book, she was
able to extract herself before things got too bad. But
what I heard in that moment was people looking out
for me, protecting me, trying to help me see patterns
(12:59):
of codepen in my family, and telling me you should
be careful, you should have boundaries, and your dad's not
a bad person. He just is not serving you. He's
not helping you right now in your life, and you're
(13:20):
not obligated to maintain a relationship with someone just because
they're blood related to you. Like, what's so crazy about
it is in a different context, if someone is genuinely abusive,
if someone is harmful to you in some way, I
don't believe that you're obligated to have a relationship with
(13:41):
that person because of any reason. But because it was
used in this context when there was no abuse, there
was no problem. All he was doing was just saying,
I disagree with this group. I disagree with what you
say you believe. I don't think this is right. I
think they're trying to harm you. Disagreement equaled, you are
(14:02):
now other. You have to be kind of caricaturized into
shrunk down into just a person who disagrees with the group.
You're dehumanized. All of the things about you, your fact
that you've raised this child, the fact that you have
been her father, have loved her, have invested in her life,
none of those things matter. Your character, the upstanding person
(14:26):
that you are, None of those things matter because of
this one critical thing, which is that you disagree, which
is I think something we see a lot these days
but that's another conversation, so you see how. But so
Camille heard it and she was like, what is going on?
They're telling you to stop talking to your parents, And
I heard people loving on me and trying to protect
(14:48):
me from someone in my life who maybe is harmful.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And it ended up ultimately working. I mean, you were
strange from your parents for quite a long time, and
your dad was definitely the more vocal one. And there's
such a badass mo and I don't feel like this
ruins anything, so I'm going to share it at the
end where eventually, when you come out of it, he
had a folder of all of his findings and he
was just waiting for that moment to be like I
got to let's go, babe. And you know, but during
(15:12):
the height of the cult for you, you didn't have
that relationship with them, and that's what they wanted, right.
They wanted to keep it all all in house, and
literally in house in Idaho and their compound. And you
ended up, yeah, marrying the leader's son, and it was
all very you know, incestual. It was all like these people,
you will not stray.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It's like a group marriage almost, and that's what when
the word covenant started coming up, you know, years later,
probably five six years in was like this idea of
it's not just a church, like, this is a covenant.
This is a which is a word used in the Bible.
I don't know if it was used in other ways
in society at that time. I'm sure it was. But
(15:51):
the idea is this like unbreakable binding contract that this
group of people has decided we're going to do life together.
So you know, you're safe to be completely vulnerable, completely
raw and real, show all the ugly sides of yourself
because no one's going to leave. It's like a guarantee
that no one will leave you, which in some utopian
(16:16):
dream sounds nice but in reality it's hell.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Now. Not everything that happened during that period was terrible.
One being you got a major show that changed the
course of your entire life as an actress. You know,
a little show called One Tree Hill. I don't know
if anyone's ever heard about it, but you booked that
and I think people are surprised to know that for
all nine seasons, ten years of your life that you
(16:48):
were a part of that show. You were involved with
this group, and yeah, started off not as intense as
where you were in season two or three of the show.
But it was a part of your life, So how
are you able to do that show and kind of
get away from the group at that phase where they
didn't feel like, oh my god, we're losing control over
(17:09):
her because she's going to be gone now for eight
months of the year.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Money money, money, They were making money off of me.
Of course they were happy to have me go out
and be a part of this. It's like, yeah, let's
support Joy while she's out there. Let's make it work. However,
we got to do it, they said. I didn't write
about this in the book because we just there wasn't
(17:33):
space for everything. But I had a minder sent to
live with me while I was out there for several
of the seasons from the group. And now that's not
what she was called. It was just my friend or
my assistant, or you know, she's There were various ways
that the relationship changed. But she was living with me
(17:54):
while I was married and my husband was living back
at home in the in the Big House, or well,
in the house that I had bought. But I think
he'd probably spent most of his time at the Big
House and she was living with me to kind of
keep an eye on me and make sure that I
was I don't know what, but she was certainly reporting
back to them. So I think that they and when
I say they, by the way, I mean the leadership
(18:17):
in this group, because the majority of the people that
were on the lower sort of the kids of the group,
I would say, in our twenties, they've all got their
own version of my story, do you know what I mean?
I say that they've got their own version of their story,
but like of what happened to them the way that
I do of what happened to me, And some of
(18:39):
them were encouraged to stay at their jobs because they
had a more high paying job and because they were
quote unquote tithing to the group, that money was valuable
to the leadership. So I think that's really how it happened.
They just they kept me tied in because the money,
but they wanted me to to day a part of
(19:00):
one streil for that reason.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah. And I think that's an important clarification to make
because some people might think, oh, how could that be,
how could you be allowed to do that? But it
really was a form of control because they were taking
your money, which we're going to get to in a bit.
And the big house that you just mentioned for everybody
listening who hasn't read the book yet, that means the
compound in Idaho that the yeah, you know leaders ran
that everybody lived in.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
It's so weird when I hear that word compound, because
I'm like, I think of compounds as these sort of
uh I guess I think of a compound as a
place that is has multiple homes all on the same
like a you know, thirty acres and it's multiple homes
and they've got a little an annex and all of
the little things. This really just was a giant house,
(19:46):
and other people in the group lived in the neighborhood.
But it wasn't like an actual nobody bought land and
had everyone move on to the land, and like we
weren't farming, we weren't doing which some people do and
those are legitimate. I mean, it's the same kind of
it's the same kind of thing that I think could
have happened to our group if it hadn't fallen apart
(20:08):
after ten years. But those other groups just started in
the same way. I don't mean to be rambling, sorry,
but the big house. It was like, it was just
this giant house. At the end of We'll Call to Sac,
I wonder what the neighbors thought.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
So we're going for a night walk. What's going on
in there?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I never met any of the neighbors in that entire neighborhood,
and the houses were not far away from each other.
In those whole ten years. I never met a neighbor.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Wow. Smart Anyway, well it tracks. I mean, honestly, it
tracts because you weren't encouraged to go be social and
you know, you wanted to stay within the group. So
it makes sense. So okay, so you went off to
do One Tree Hill. You were making money, which meant
the cult was making money. But out of that came
a brilliant character and a brilliant performance and a role
(20:58):
that means so much to so many people. I mean,
you will forever be part of one of the most
iconic couples in all of television in the history of
pop culture, which must feel pretty good. So when you think, wow,
that relationship, what makes you smile?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Oh my gosh. I mean James, he's just such an
upstanding human and he's so creative, he's I mean, he
left Montreal and started his own show. Everybody's doing great
and it's hilarious. And he's always really soulful and thoughtful
and such an interesting person. And I'm just so grateful
(21:35):
that I got the opportunity to work with him when
he was just a baby. He was seventeen when he started.
He was the youngest of all of us. And to
just be around someone who came from a really strong
family and a really loving environment, and he was so professional.
I mean, I had probably been in the business a
(21:56):
little longer than him, but he was he was more
professional than Member. One time he walked out of his trailer.
It's just like in season one, he walked out of
his trailer holding his wardrobe on hangers and at the
end of the day, and I was like, what are
you what are you doing. He's like, I'm just taking
my clothes back to wardrobe. And I'm thinking, oh my god,
I just throw my clothes on the floor of my trailer.
(22:17):
Nobody ever told me that that's not what I'm supposed
to do. It's like the only child syndrome of just
like throw your clothes on the floor and go to school,
Like nobody ever told me not to do that, so
I just never learned that's amazing, isn't that so crazy?
And from then I just started hanging my clothes up
and sometimes I would take them back depending on what
the day was. But like I learned from this. He
(22:38):
was a young kid at the time, and I learned
so much from him, and we really had a great
time together. So I think when I look back on
Nathan and Haley, what makes me happy is thinking about
the time that he and I actually got to spend together.
He's a great person.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Were you able to keep in touch over the years
or with everything that happened it just made it difficult.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Oh, we stayed in touch. I mean we live really
different lives. We're in different places, and it's like every
job that every actor has, you get really close while
you're on set, and then once the job is over,
you move on and you just get close to different people.
It's kind of the nature, the necessary nature of the job,
I think. But yes, and we see each other conventions
all the time, and we've always we've always just had
(23:20):
a great rapport.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Like I said, those scenes iconic, epic, the kissing and
the rain, I mean, all of it.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I know it's so romantic.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
All of it.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
The thing is that it's like, you don't know how
funny it is because we're it's actually a hose with
holes in it, like strapped to a sea stand in
the air, and it's freezing cold water and it's pelting
down and we're trying to keep our eyes open, you know.
But all of those things. To go through that kind
of stuff with another person is always just bonding and fun.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
You also write about one of your biggest regrets from
your time on One Tree Hill, and you talked about
this in the memoir. It's with Sophia Bush, and you
said you were going through your own insecurities at the time.
She was probably going through some things of her own
at the time, but that you really wish quote I
could go back and time to her trailer and give
her a really big hug. Yeah, talk to me about that.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Oh, I don't know what else sort is to say.
I mean, I I agonized over how exactly to write
that out, because I have such a deep well of
emotions around her and around the cast members that I
was able to get really close with at that time
in spite of the fact that I was in this
(24:30):
environment in my personal life, there were people that always
made an effort and she was one of them. And
so I just have this. I mean, like I said,
my heart just always turns into a bear hug when
I think of her, like I just want to I
just want to give her a hug. And I wish
that I had been older in my like I wish
(24:53):
I had known what I know now to be able
to just sometimes the people that feel prickly in your
life are actually the people that just need a big hug.
I know I needed a big hug. Yeah, and I
think maybe she did too, and I so, yeah, do
you think.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
You'll ever have that conversation one day? Do you hope
to just kind of talking about everything you both were
going through.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, We've had many conversations, and I think we'll probably
continue to as the years go on. There's so many
things that just constantly evolve. But I don't know if
I've ever actually told her that, So hopefully she'll appreciate.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
That well, I would think. So it's a very interesting
to say, for sure. Yeah, Joy, there are so many
things swirling about about a reboot right, and everybody lives
in of nostalgia and it's so wild to me that
you created something that literally like helped people have joy,
you know, pun intended in their own lives when you
(25:51):
were going through something so wild in your life. You
let this relationship, this character, this freedom, this joy, this
piece of pop culture with people that they still talk
about it. They still are like, oh my god, we
rewatch it over and over and over again. We're now
showing our teenagers we want to reboot. So there's a
lot being said about is a reboot happening, is it
not happening. You've expressed you would be down to do
(26:13):
it should that opportunity come about, and depending on what
that looks like, have there been any other conversations about that,
and do you really think this could happen because a
lot of people are holding on to hope.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Oh it's so sweet. I know. I hear both sides
of it. Like some people are like, no, just leave
it alone. It's perfect as it is, and then some
people are frothing at the bit like please please give
us more, which I love. I just love either way
how passionate fans are about what they went through with
us and how they feel about the future. But in
(26:45):
terms of actual information, I don't have anything new. There's
just been. I just I don't know what stage it's in.
I don't know who's really involved. I don't know almost
anything about it, so we just have to wait. Sorry.
I wish I had a better answer for you.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
That's all right, and life were worth the wait, So yes,
I'm gladly going to wait on that one. But I'm
so curious kind of jumping off of that and with
what you've gone through and the PTSD of maybe what
you experienced, I would imagine there was some level of
that in your healing journey as Yeah, do you ever
worry like if a reboot came around, would I have
(27:21):
a seat at the table or would I not be
invited because of what I went through and what people
remembered from my time on the show, Like does your
mind go there that you have to snap it out
of that?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
No, because everyone was so generous. I think that was
one of the biggest surprises when I left the group,
and you know, I left after I had we had
wrapped in Wilmington, so I didn't go back to North Carolina,
And there are sometimes I wish I had left a
little bit sooner so that I could have gone back
and really invested in those relationships in a new and
meaningful way, but that just wasn't in the cards at
(27:53):
the time. I feel like everyone was so kind and
generous though in as I would start to leak out
this information, like yeah, actually I was in a really
bad situation and I got out. I was met not
with people saying I told you so, but people just
having big open arms and saying we're here, we love you,
(28:15):
We see who you are in spite of all of
the stuff that you were carrying. And there's good and
bad parts to everybody's personality character, we're all complex humans.
But to realize that people were actually able to see
through a lot of the superiority complex, the stubbornness, the youth,
(28:40):
stubborn youth that I was existing in and see like, no,
she's a person that's worth having around, just a person
that I still want to maintain a friendship with and
invest in in spite of all those things that really
blew me away. It was the most astonishing display of
grace that I've felt like I didn't deserve, and there
(29:01):
were a lot of people from the show that really
gave that to me, and it kind of makes me
emotional It makes me so happy. Like every time we
go back and do these conventions with whether in Wilmington
or Paris or wherever we get to go and all
get together as a group. I wish our crew was
with us too, But I have such fomo if we're
not together, I'm like, where's everybody going to dinner? What's happening?
(29:24):
I just want to know everything. I want to be
a part of it. Also, I don't miss anything else.
It's a wonderful group of people.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah. Having that grace in life is something that I
think the whole world needs to have more of right now.
And when you go through something like that and you
realize how gentle and graceful people are with you, it
really makes you look at life, I imagine, in a
different perspective. So it's really cool to hear that the
cast was very much like that with you. And before
(29:50):
we move on to a part of this memoir that
I am going to read back to you because it
blew me away. Oh okay, yes I am. I have
a very big problem in media when people try to
pin people against each other. So I want to take
a quick second and say, I just heard you want
call your daddy you brought up the rumors, speculator, the
(30:13):
rumors around you and Hillary. You very graciously said you're
working some things out, you hope to work them out,
and that's that. But now I'm seeing online there are
things coming out like if there's a reboot, you might
not be a part of it because of whatever that is.
And I just want to put this out there because
I feel like my job as an interviewer is to
not encourage our behavior because it's bullshit and I don't
(30:36):
like when women get pinned against each other. I think
it's disgusting and it's gross and it gives people a
bad name who are in this business. So from your perspective,
like you don't believe that would be true, whatever's going
on there would not affect your involvement in a potential reboot.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
So crazy to me, all of this. I love Hillary.
I have no ill will toward her. I have no
like I would never want to go back to a
One Tree Hill reboot with animosity, like that's just that's
not who either of us are. So yeah, and I
(31:14):
agree with you, it's not helpful. It's not helpful, particularly
because actually the irony of the fact that I am
trying to tell people a story about what happens in
group triangulation when other people come in and they start
taking somebody's words and taking another person's words and trying
to create something that's not there, and gaslighting and all
(31:35):
of these things. And everybody is like, Okay, we love
your book, but also like, can you please tell us
what's happening with Hillary? Just like this is crazy to me.
Do you understand that you're doing exactly what I'm talking about?
This triangulation is so not helpful.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
This is me off. That's why I would never sit
here and say, oh, tell me, I don't care, it's
not my lin.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I appreciate it. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
The point is like, I don't want people running with
the story that that's affecting whatever that project is. So
thank you for clarity.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
We're going to run with things all the time.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Well, this is me off. I'm a Jersey brilliant woman.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
That's what I'm saying. You know what I mean, come on,
we're gonna have sometime great may let's talk about this
all right.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Well that's good to know because we're all rooting for
that reboot to happen, and we all of course want you,
and there's in my opinion, no reboot without you.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So oh thanks.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Anyway, back to the cult. That's for a transition.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
No, it's good. It is a good segue because what
we were just talking about, you know, there's like people
people getting involved in other people's relationships.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
So yes, yes, yes, Well the Cult took I think
two million dollars from you, if not more. And there's
a moment in your memoir where you're sitting in the
bank and you have a really gracious teller trying to
help you sort this out, and that moment comes to mind,
you know, comes to fruition, and you were just kind
of like, wait what and this is what you wrote.
I highlighted this because it was so wait can you see.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
It where it's whoa, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Oh I'm someone that like mark books and you.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Don't even know what that does to me seeing my
book in someone's hands, the way that I mark up
and write on books. This is a really really amazing moment.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Wow, that's crazy. My husband's like, oh, I want to
read it. I'm like, don't mind, mom on notes now,
I'll send it one perfect okay, But this is what
you said and that moment finding out that two million
dollars was gone in that bank. What a waste of space.
I was, a waste of talent, of time I had
thrown away what little spare time I had chasing a
god I was now not even sure existed, enduring years
(33:39):
of abuse with a pathetic cult of selfish people, and
living in a place where every dream I had went
to die. Oh yeah, Wow, that moment for you must
have been what I imagine is one of the hardest
moments you've ever faced in your life.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Huh Yeah, Just the depth self loathing, the realization crashing
down of like, I have wasted so much time. I
cannot believe that I had so much at my feet.
I had so much opportunity. And I'm not saying to
build myself up. I had opportunity to participate in the world,
(34:19):
in the communities that I was in, participate in art
and storytelling, to be able to learn and listen. And
these key years, especially in your twenties, when you are
gathering up so much around you that you're going to
we're like little beavers. We're gathering all the things and
we're building. We're building the dam of our character and
(34:41):
our personality and like, who are we going to be?
And I was siphoning those things off of an environment
that was a mirage. It's just it was really, really devastating,
and I just hated myself.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Are you at a place in your life where you
no longer beat yourself up for mistakes that were made
in the past or for things you wish you did differently,
Because that's a moment that I just read where that
person really truly seems like she hated herself. And we
all go through things in our lives where we might
(35:19):
feel like that. I certainly have had my own journey
specifically related to my sexualities, so we all have our things.
But are you able to not beat yourself up over
your experience? Now?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I have fundamental neural wiring that I am trying to
grow new pathways where I don't beat myself up as
a default for everything. However, in terms of flogging myself
(35:56):
for my past in this story and everything that you
read and seen that I walked through, I have come
to peace with almost everything in that book there is.
I don't feel angry. I don't there are very few
moments where I feel like I missed out on something
(36:17):
and That's also hugely because I've found a place in
my spiritual journey to be able to release the shame
by talking about it, by sharing, by forgiving myself one
day at a time. So there's new things all the
time that I beat myself up about and have days
when I'm just like, you're such a fucking idiot, Oh
(36:39):
my god, why did you say that? Why did you
do that? And I'm trying to relearn that behavioral pattern.
I don't really know where it originated or why I
do that, but I'm working on it. But it's not
necessarily now related to that time in my past.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Well that's good to hear. We're all works in progress, right,
We're never going to be perfect. But to know that
you're not the person in that moment anymore and you're
not going to be so hard on yourself, I think
is a huge step in the right direction. And also
by even releasing this memoir, there's a moment towards the
end of the book where what you said changed everything
(37:16):
for me. And as I mentioned when I first met
you in the beginning of this interview, being someone who
maybe thought a certain way or the thought crossed my mind,
not that I ever thought so deeply about it. But
you know, the thoughts that I mentioned earlier to cross
my mind. What you said at the end to a
former friend at a party about is a woman in
(37:37):
an abusive relationship who doesn't leave stupid And I'm paraphrasing there.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
To put it in that context, in that perspective, and
to equate being in a cult and dealing with the
type of behavior that you were receiving as abusive, right,
and abuse exists in many forms, was really this oh
my god moment where I thought, holy shit, Yeah, yeah,
(38:05):
it is the same. It is the same. You would
never say that about a woman who was going through that,
and why should you think that about someone going through
what you went through? And I really think that sets
it up in a very important and powerful way.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Oh thank you, gosh, that's so great to hear that
it hit you that way and came through I'm so glad. Yeah.
I don't know what to say except that that's when
I realized that the word cult was not admissible in
court because it's not definable. The closest definition that a
(38:39):
courtroom will accept is high demand group, which has its
own sort of checklist of whether, and different judges may
deem it differently, whether it was qualified, whether something qualifies
as a high demand group. Some may say any church does,
and some may say only the most extreme where there's
physical violence happening. And so there's this very strange, undefinable
(39:03):
space that the word cult or high demand group lives in.
But one thing that I think really is definable is
community abuse, community manipulation when there's a top down trickle,
and that could be in a workplace, that could be
in a religious environment, that could be at a gym,
(39:25):
like there's so many different places where you could find that.
But the function, because it's from top down, the function
of it is the same in a romantic partnership abusive
relationship because the personality disorder that causes the ripple effect
is the same. So whether that personality is more attracted
(39:46):
to controlling a group of people or more attracted to
controlling one person, that's a variant, but the actual malignant
narcissism is the same. And so the people who get
caught up in it, whether it's a singular person caught
in the partnership or a group of people, they're all
(40:08):
singular people caught up in a version of a partnership.
It's just with one person at the top and then
with other people on the side. It actually, I think
narcissists prey on intelligent empaths. So the chance is that
you are a really intelligent person who's not stupid, who's
not weak, and then got caught up in something like
(40:29):
this are higher. If that makes sense. I kind of
feel like I'm turning my sentence upside down, But it
would make sense for you to be attracted to someone
with a narcissistic personality. If you're an intelligent EmPATH, that
doesn't make you stupid or weak or crazy. It's just
is how the personality disorder works, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
It doesn't make you stupid, weak, or crazy. Bears repeating,
because we need to erase that sort of judgment period.
And I think it was a really important point that
you made. Now, is your relation, like with God, whatever
that means to you, has that been rebuilt for you?
Has it been changed? What is it?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I mean, is anyone's relationship with God definable? I can
say that it's the most authentic relationship with God that
I've ever had because I feel so much more safe
and loved. Now that I've accepted that I can't do
(41:29):
anything to earn that love. Now I feel like, Okay,
I'm safe to make mistakes. I'm because you're going to
turn it into something good. It doesn't mean I'm going
to run around trying to do stupid things, obviously, But
I don't feel the sense of anxiety around decision making
that I used to when I didn't trust myself and
(41:49):
thought I needed somebody else to tell me how to
live my life. I don't feel like I have to
hit all the points on the checklist of whatever, any group,
any religion, anything is telling me I need to do
in order to earn my way into God's favor. I've
(42:12):
experienced too much to believe that that's the way that
it's meant to be. I don't think that works for anyone.
I really don't, and I know I guess it can
be kind of polarizing to say like I have some
existential answer. But I've never met anybody who is really
satisfied by living everything off the checklist, who really feels
(42:33):
like they're seen and known and loved. That just feels
like earning to me. So I don't have all the answers.
But I do have a much more authentic relationship with
God than I ever did. I feel more free And what.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
A beautiful feeling that must be. Yeah, Oh, I love
hearing that. It's so nice to see when someone comes
out of something so traumatizing and still has such a
beautiful sense of hope. And I think that's really a
really important message as well to put out there.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Joy.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
The name of this show is I've never said this before.
I know, I'm trying to think as we were, oh,
you know what's coming as we wrap up. I feel
like I've been so open already in this whole conversation.
But in the spirit of the show name, is there
anything you can think of whatever that question means to you,
no right or wrong answer that you've never said before
(43:28):
that you want to share today.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
This is so hard for me because I I mean, honestly,
this is one of the biggest missions in my just
in my own personal life. Once I left this group
and started realizing how much shame was isolating me, I
started to just talk about it and say things, and
I just I'm like, a, you can't shut me up,
Like I just want to say all the things so
(43:52):
that it doesn't get locked in my own body. Obviously,
you know I'm not. I'm not trying to un to
give everybody every piece of information ever, But you know,
I just want to be open and honest. I want
to live that kind of a life. So I don't
know what I would have never said. I say all
(44:13):
the bad words. Now I say, I say I love
you to all the people. Gosh, I wonder, I bet
there's something like I haven't ever said to my parents.
Maybe like I'm still scared of having vulnerable conversations with
my parents. Hmmm. Like it's just I'm scared of emotion.
(44:37):
I'm trying, I'm working on it, but like being in
front of people, it's the same thing that I talk
about in the beginning of the book, like, oh my god,
I'm crying in front of a whole bunch of people.
This is terrifying. I still feel that. And when I'm
with somebody that I really care about and I start crying,
I feel all kinds of uncomfortable things that I don't
know how to deal with. I don't know if I've
(44:58):
ever just flat outside to my parents and I'm sorry
for what I put you through in those ten years
I think we've danced around versions of that, but I
don't think i've ever just flat out said that. So Mom, Dad,
I'm really sorry for what I put you through for
the last well those those ten years that's been. It's
(45:20):
been a while out of it now, but yeah, and
thank you for sticking by me and for your patience
and grace.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
That's beautiful. I hope you send this to them because
that really that really is it?
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Colum?
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah, well, I hope you do that too. But that's
that's a beautiful thing to share and share it so publicly,
and I think we always have things we wish we
said to parents or whoever that we haven't, So thank
you for sharing that, and thank you for being open.
I mean, I know it's still probably a lot for you,
So I hope you feel good with this conversation and
then sharing.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
You're lovely. I really enjoyed talking with you, and thank
you for actually really diving into the book and taking
so much out of it and being able to communicate
really intelligently about it emotional intelligence as well. You're so
well prepared and just easy to talk to and so positive,
like this was really really nice experience. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Oh well, thank you, thank you, and on our way out. Yeah,
because I'm a theater loving boy. Oh yes, I'm here.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Why were we talking about that for the last hour.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
I allow you two more hours, and I got to
get you out the door. You have somewhere to be.
But I know that you are offered bell right in
be and the Beast, and you turn that down because
of the cult. So let's do a little manifesting moment
right here. Oh if even theater is something still on
your radar? Yeah, what would be one or two or
(46:48):
three rolls or shows that you would want to be
a part of on Broadway? Oh my gosh, whether it's
out now or not.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Think Haitiestown would be a ball. I don't know if
I could grunge my voice up enough like the Amber,
but I would love to try. And Satine. I had
one of the worst auditions of my life for Satine.
It was really comical. It was like a producer session
(47:18):
and I just totally choked, Like I did super well
in the music session with the producer ahead of time,
and it was like things were looking really good for me,
and there were like six girls that were going back.
It was replacing Karen for a Broadway and then they
were doing the West End cast and all this and
uh oh, man, I don't know what happened. I walked
(47:39):
in that room and my brain just went too fast
and my mouth slowed down and I couldn't I couldn't
do it. I totally choked. But then Courtney, Uh oh, shoot,
what's her last name? I know her? It was Courtney
because I know her through a friend. So we met
and she was just Courtney to me. But anyway, she's
the girl that did Aladdin, er Jasmine and Aladdin, and
(48:00):
she got Satina. She's doing fabulous job. But yeah, I
would really enjoy that. I think that would be a
really fun role if I could have another chance to
not completely fuck it up.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
That was all right, Well we put it out there
so broadby producers. I hope you listening. Let's go, let's
do it. Let's do it. Joy, thank you again. I
had so much fun hanging out with you. Your memoir
is out right now. Everybody can go order it. Best
place to order it.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Oh, you can do Amazon, you can do Barnes and Noble. Yeah.
I don't know how all the rigamarole works with like
numbers and sales from particular avenues and stuff, but I
would just say go, yeah, go grab it on Amazon
or at Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Dinner for Vampire is out now. Thank you, my friend.
I hope you can do that again. This was lovely,
It really was.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
I've Never Said This Before is hosted by me, Tommy Didario.
This podcast is executive produced by Andrew Piblisi at iHeartRadio
and by me Tommy, with editing by Joshua Colaudney. I've
Never Said This Before is part of the Elvis Duran
podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more, rate review and
subscribe to our show and if you liked this episode,
(49:17):
tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy Diderio.
Hey, guys, welcome to I've never said this before with me,
Tommy di Dario. This episode is perhaps one of my
favorite conversations that I've ever had on my show because
it is so real and raw and she is so vulnerable.
That she I'm referring to is the amazing and brilliant
Bethany Joy Lenz, who is my guest today and you
know when you love her From her starring role as
(00:21):
Haley James Scott in the fan favorite series of One
Tree Hill, her character is beloved, and Joy and her
co star James Lafferty went on to play one of
the most popular TV couples in pop culture history. But
while Joy was in one of the most popular TV
shows in the world, she was also getting more and
more involved with a very dangerous cult. Her new memoir,
Jennerfer Vampires is out right now and it chronicles her
(00:44):
spending a decade in a cult and her quest to
break free. Publicly, she was the girl that people adored
from One Tree Hill, rising to the heights of international fame,
but privately, she felt like she was falling deeper and
deeper into a cult that she couldn't break free from,
until one day she had enough. I thank Joy for
being so open and honest with me in this conversation.
(01:05):
And I truly believe she is going to help so
many people by sharing her story. So let's see if
we can get Joy to say something that she has
never said before. Joy, how you doing today?
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Good?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
How are you? I am so fantastic. Thank you for
joining the show. I'm so excited to have you, especially
now that I know you were from New Jersey. I
love a Jersey connection.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I do too. Jersey people always seem to find each
other somehow. I feel like it happens all the time.
I'm in the grocery store and a parking lot and like, hmmm,
you're Jersey, aren't you. I hear that accent.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
That's right, We're good people. We're good people. Won't welcome
to the show. I am so excited to talk to
you because we have quite a lot to dive into.
I have your book right next to me. I devour this,
like I wrote you on Instagram. I DMD you because
I was so just captivated by your story and enthralled
by your story. And I have to be like super
(02:03):
honest for a minute with you and tell you that
before hearing about your story. Myself, like many people, probably
kind of had this misconception about people that get involved
in cults, and you automatically think, well, how like, I
could never allow that to happen to me, and they
(02:23):
didn't see warning signs, And admittedly and embarrassingly, that's kind
of what I would think when I would watch documentaries
or read stories. And I'm somebody who's so open minded
and compassionate, but that did kind of cross my mind.
Then I read your memoir and the way you lay
it out, it is a must read for anyone who
is going through any sort of abusive relationship, whether that's
(02:44):
psychological and emotional, physical, and for anyone who has to
witness that from afar right. So, I think it's such
an important part of your life that you open up about,
and I'm just so thrilled that it's going to be
out there. So, first, thank you. Let me check in
on you, because you've been doing a lot of press.
You're on the cover of People magazine, Your story and
(03:07):
your business is out there. So how are you feeling
with this all out?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Thank you for everything you've said. I really appreciate that.
Thank you, and thank you for asking that I'm taking
it a day at a time. There are days when
it feels overwhelming. I feel like I am prone to
I'm someone who's just prone to think that there's somebody
mad at me at all times, Like somewhere out there,
someone's mad at me. I've heard someone's feelings. I forgot
(03:33):
to call somebody back, I said the wrong thing. I
always live with that anxiety, and it's a constant thing.
So to put so much of myself out there and
know that I really did my best to respect everyone
involved and to share my truth because I think it'll
really help people, there is a huge element that I'm
(03:55):
living with of just like, oh god, I really hope
that this is all okay, and I really hope I
didn't hurt anybody, and I really hope that that it's
received well. And So to give you a really long
winded answer, Tommy, I'm doing okay. I'm taking it a
day at a time, and I'm having a great day today,
and I'm really happy to be here talking with you.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Oh good, we love a great day. And I totally
could understand how you're feeling. All of those things. You
kind of sum up this entire chapter of your life
through a brilliant line. I believe you said this to
Katherine McPhee at a party and you said Bible study
went sideways. I read that and was like, oh my god,
(04:41):
I couldn't love this girl more.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
So, it's so funny that you pick that out.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
I love it, Yes, I did. I'm very quirky and
weird and I love a good sense of here mercyll
I loved that so much. So before we dive into everything,
I guess, talk to me about the moment before you
join that Bible study to being fully ingrained into that cult,
like walking through real quick, how that all happened?
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Okay. The truncated version is I grew up in a
very normal Western society, charismatic Christian community, non denominational culturally Christian.
I was used to Bible studies on Wednesday nights or
Sunday nights, or It was just a way of people
(05:30):
in a faith community connecting, keeping their community close, deepening
their relationships to each other and to God. It's pretty
normal in pretty much every faith community that I know of,
in and out of Christianity. Every religion that I know
has some version of this, and so that seemed very
normal to me when I moved to LA and I
was feeling lonely because I had left New York City
(05:51):
and I didn't really know anybody and was just trying
to make friends. And I got invited to this home
group Bible study that sounded like every other one that
I'd ever been to, And to be fair, when it started,
I think it was. I think it was all pretty normal,
just young professionals with a lot in common creatively, with
(06:13):
a lot in common in our faith, and we lived
in the same area and just wanted to get together
and get to know each other. And then it took
about a year, well actually I was in it for
about six months, six to eight months maybe before a
pastor from another state was invited to come speak at
the group, and then slowly began kind of infiltrating and
(06:35):
becoming a just a regular at the group. He would
fly in from out of state, and he didn't have
a church at the time. He had been well you'll
have to read the book to find out. I found
out later why he didn't have a church anymore. But nevertheless,
we saw him as an older, wiser man who was
(06:58):
an ordained past stir and somebody who could really give
us some wisdom that we as, recognizing that we were
young and still inexperienced in many ways, maybe needed some guidance.
Unfortunately we just chose the wrong person.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
That sets it up very well. And you mentioned being
lonely when you got out to LA. I feel the
loneliness every time I go to lam in New Yorker.
I've lived here my whole life, and I feel that.
I always say it's my husband when I come back, like,
how was your trip good? But God, I always feel
a little lonely here. Yeah, you felt that when you
got out there. You also were starting to compare yourself
(07:34):
to some other actors in the business and maybe weren't
feeling as attractive as they were, as pretty as they were.
And you even said that quote, I was an alley
cat still cleaning dumpster lettuce out of my pause, which
is hysterical but also kind of heartbreaking. It's like, no, no, girl,
you have all the same value. But I understand how
(07:55):
comparison syndrome works. I've been there too. So would you
say loneliness was a driving force for you to I
don't want to say have blinders on to what was
going on with the Bible study turn cult, but to
keep going with it all.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
For sure, I was so desperate to be seen. I'm
so desperate for community. I'd been wanting that my whole life.
I was an only child. My parents were wonderful people
that had a lot of their own tumultuous issues going on,
and I isolated myself. I got really used to my
own company, which is a gift in some ways, but
I also just it was hard for me to make
(08:34):
friends because we moved around a lot, and then I
was in the theater, and that you know, as a
theater person, you make close friends for three months and
then you move on to a new group of friends.
So there was this longing for consistency that I just
had a really hard time finding a cure for. And
when I became a part of this group, when I
(08:56):
started connecting with these people, it felt like it was
going so much deeper than just the sort of surface
relationships that you have when you know that you're going
to be moving on. And I think we all have
this need for some spot in our lives. There are
(09:18):
holes that need to be filled based on our rearing,
based on relationships that we've had when we were young.
There's these sort of very Freudian basic needs that if
they're not all met, we look to fill them, and
we need them so badly to be filled that we're
willing to make excuses for things that maybe are red
(09:39):
flags because we just really really want to feel the
thing that's going to make us feel better in the moment.
Does that make sense or was that? No?
Speaker 1 (09:49):
That absolutely makes sense. I think it's easy to ignore
red flags when you want to believe so badly that
something is so true. What was one of those early
red flags you think you maybe missed?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Hmmm, well, now, I mean, gosh, in retrospect, I can
I can certainly see that anyone, anyone who is just
so immediately intimate like it just dives right in with you.
I'm not talking about somebody who's willing to have an
(10:20):
emotional conversation, or somebody who's willing to dive in deep
in terms of like philosophy, or just being willing to
be a friend to a stranger and connect. I'm talking
about somebody who's willing to dive deep into intimacy in
friendship or romantic relationship on a consistent basis without having
(10:41):
really built trust. Is a red flag you just it's
that's codependence or narcissism, attempting to manipulate you. I just
don't think there's any way around it.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So I have I have.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Big red flags at about people who are just like
super they just want to go in and get really close,
really fast. I'm like, sum's up, something's up.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah, no, And that's that's good intuition. I mean, I've
I've dealt with that myself, and you don't want to
go through life cold. But it's good to have a
little bit of a perceptive eye, you know. So I
think I think nothing's wrong with that. And like you said,
this group, their basis was manipulation and isolation, and you know,
(11:28):
my God like wanting to isolate you from friends and
families so that you're so co dependent on only them
and that they are the only group of people in
your life, which it's manipulation. One oh one. So do
you remember one of the first times where you felt
like that happened, where you really felt like you were
starting to isolate away from the people in your former
(11:49):
life to blend more with these people.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah. I think the thing is that I didn't not
really notice it. Then I can tell you what it
was now, but it's still hard to see back then.
But yeah, I remember. There's a character in my book
called Camille. She's a British actress that I was friends
with in New York and she also moved out to
LA and I invited her to come to the group
and start hanging out. So she spent some time with
(12:14):
us there, and she told us me and my dad
actually later in conversation that she was to remember being
at a meeting with us, one of the group meetings,
where I was told that I really shouldn't talk to
my dad anymore. And when she said that, it triggered
this memory. I was like, oh, my gosh, I do remember.
(12:37):
I don't remember being explicitly told that, but it's wild
that that's what she heard and she could see it,
and she, as you'll read in the book, she was
able to extract herself before things got too bad. But
what I heard in that moment was people looking out
for me, protecting me, trying to help me see patterns
(12:59):
of codepen in my family, and telling me you should
be careful, you should have boundaries, and your dad's not
a bad person. He just is not serving you. He's
not helping you right now in your life, and you're
(13:20):
not obligated to maintain a relationship with someone just because
they're blood related to you. Like, what's so crazy about
it is in a different context, if someone is genuinely abusive,
if someone is harmful to you in some way, I
don't believe that you're obligated to have a relationship with
(13:41):
that person because of any reason. But because it was
used in this context when there was no abuse, there
was no problem. All he was doing was just saying,
I disagree with this group. I disagree with what you
say you believe. I don't think this is right. I
think they're trying to harm you. Disagreement equaled, you are
(14:02):
now other. You have to be kind of caricaturized into
shrunk down into just a person who disagrees with the group.
You're dehumanized. All of the things about you, your fact
that you've raised this child, the fact that you have
been her father, have loved her, have invested in her life,
none of those things matter. Your character, the upstanding person
(14:26):
that you are, None of those things matter because of
this one critical thing, which is that you disagree, which
is I think something we see a lot these days
but that's another conversation, so you see how. But so
Camille heard it and she was like, what is going on?
They're telling you to stop talking to your parents, And
I heard people loving on me and trying to protect
(14:48):
me from someone in my life who maybe is harmful.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And it ended up ultimately working. I mean, you were
strange from your parents for quite a long time, and
your dad was definitely the more vocal one. And there's
such a badass mo and I don't feel like this
ruins anything, so I'm going to share it at the
end where eventually, when you come out of it, he
had a folder of all of his findings and he
was just waiting for that moment to be like I
got to let's go, babe. And you know, but during
(15:12):
the height of the cult for you, you didn't have
that relationship with them, and that's what they wanted, right.
They wanted to keep it all all in house, and
literally in house in Idaho and their compound. And you
ended up, yeah, marrying the leader's son, and it was
all very you know, incestual. It was all like these people,
you will not stray.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It's like a group marriage almost, and that's what when
the word covenant started coming up, you know, years later,
probably five six years in was like this idea of
it's not just a church, like, this is a covenant.
This is a which is a word used in the Bible.
I don't know if it was used in other ways
in society at that time. I'm sure it was. But
(15:51):
the idea is this like unbreakable binding contract that this
group of people has decided we're going to do life together.
So you know, you're safe to be completely vulnerable, completely
raw and real, show all the ugly sides of yourself
because no one's going to leave. It's like a guarantee
that no one will leave you, which in some utopian
(16:16):
dream sounds nice but in reality it's hell.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Now. Not everything that happened during that period was terrible.
One being you got a major show that changed the
course of your entire life as an actress. You know,
a little show called One Tree Hill. I don't know
if anyone's ever heard about it, but you booked that
and I think people are surprised to know that for
all nine seasons, ten years of your life that you
(16:48):
were a part of that show. You were involved with
this group, and yeah, started off not as intense as
where you were in season two or three of the show.
But it was a part of your life, So how
are you able to do that show and kind of
get away from the group at that phase where they
didn't feel like, oh my god, we're losing control over
(17:09):
her because she's going to be gone now for eight
months of the year.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Money money, money, They were making money off of me.
Of course they were happy to have me go out
and be a part of this. It's like, yeah, let's
support Joy while she's out there. Let's make it work. However,
we got to do it, they said. I didn't write
about this in the book because we just there wasn't
(17:33):
space for everything. But I had a minder sent to
live with me while I was out there for several
of the seasons from the group. And now that's not
what she was called. It was just my friend or
my assistant, or you know, she's There were various ways
that the relationship changed. But she was living with me
(17:54):
while I was married and my husband was living back
at home in the in the Big House, or well,
in the house that I had bought. But I think
he'd probably spent most of his time at the Big
House and she was living with me to kind of
keep an eye on me and make sure that I
was I don't know what, but she was certainly reporting
back to them. So I think that they and when
I say they, by the way, I mean the leadership
(18:17):
in this group, because the majority of the people that
were on the lower sort of the kids of the group,
I would say, in our twenties, they've all got their
own version of my story, do you know what I mean?
I say that they've got their own version of their story,
but like of what happened to them the way that
I do of what happened to me, And some of
(18:39):
them were encouraged to stay at their jobs because they
had a more high paying job and because they were
quote unquote tithing to the group, that money was valuable
to the leadership. So I think that's really how it happened.
They just they kept me tied in because the money,
but they wanted me to to day a part of
(19:00):
one streil for that reason.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah. And I think that's an important clarification to make
because some people might think, oh, how could that be,
how could you be allowed to do that? But it
really was a form of control because they were taking
your money, which we're going to get to in a bit.
And the big house that you just mentioned for everybody
listening who hasn't read the book yet, that means the
compound in Idaho that the yeah, you know leaders ran
that everybody lived in.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
It's so weird when I hear that word compound, because
I'm like, I think of compounds as these sort of
uh I guess I think of a compound as a
place that is has multiple homes all on the same
like a you know, thirty acres and it's multiple homes
and they've got a little an annex and all of
the little things. This really just was a giant house,
(19:46):
and other people in the group lived in the neighborhood.
But it wasn't like an actual nobody bought land and
had everyone move on to the land, and like we
weren't farming, we weren't doing which some people do and
those are legitimate. I mean, it's the same kind of
it's the same kind of thing that I think could
have happened to our group if it hadn't fallen apart
(20:08):
after ten years. But those other groups just started in
the same way. I don't mean to be rambling, sorry,
but the big house. It was like, it was just
this giant house. At the end of We'll Call to Sac,
I wonder what the neighbors thought.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
So we're going for a night walk. What's going on
in there?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I never met any of the neighbors in that entire neighborhood,
and the houses were not far away from each other.
In those whole ten years. I never met a neighbor.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Wow. Smart Anyway, well it tracks. I mean, honestly, it
tracts because you weren't encouraged to go be social and
you know, you wanted to stay within the group. So
it makes sense. So okay, so you went off to
do One Tree Hill. You were making money, which meant
the cult was making money. But out of that came
a brilliant character and a brilliant performance and a role
(20:58):
that means so much to so many people. I mean,
you will forever be part of one of the most
iconic couples in all of television in the history of
pop culture, which must feel pretty good. So when you think, wow,
that relationship, what makes you smile?
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Oh my gosh. I mean James, he's just such an
upstanding human and he's so creative, he's I mean, he
left Montreal and started his own show. Everybody's doing great
and it's hilarious. And he's always really soulful and thoughtful
and such an interesting person. And I'm just so grateful
(21:35):
that I got the opportunity to work with him when
he was just a baby. He was seventeen when he started.
He was the youngest of all of us. And to
just be around someone who came from a really strong
family and a really loving environment, and he was so professional.
I mean, I had probably been in the business a
(21:56):
little longer than him, but he was he was more
professional than Member. One time he walked out of his trailer.
It's just like in season one, he walked out of
his trailer holding his wardrobe on hangers and at the
end of the day, and I was like, what are
you what are you doing. He's like, I'm just taking
my clothes back to wardrobe. And I'm thinking, oh my god,
I just throw my clothes on the floor of my trailer.
(22:17):
Nobody ever told me that that's not what I'm supposed
to do. It's like the only child syndrome of just
like throw your clothes on the floor and go to school,
Like nobody ever told me not to do that, so
I just never learned that's amazing, isn't that so crazy?
And from then I just started hanging my clothes up
and sometimes I would take them back depending on what
the day was. But like I learned from this. He
(22:38):
was a young kid at the time, and I learned
so much from him, and we really had a great
time together. So I think when I look back on
Nathan and Haley, what makes me happy is thinking about
the time that he and I actually got to spend together.
He's a great person.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Were you able to keep in touch over the years
or with everything that happened it just made it difficult.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Oh, we stayed in touch. I mean we live really
different lives. We're in different places, and it's like every
job that every actor has, you get really close while
you're on set, and then once the job is over,
you move on and you just get close to different people.
It's kind of the nature, the necessary nature of the job,
I think. But yes, and we see each other conventions
all the time, and we've always we've always just had
(23:20):
a great rapport.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Like I said, those scenes iconic, epic, the kissing and
the rain, I mean, all of it.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I know it's so romantic.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
All of it.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
The thing is that it's like, you don't know how
funny it is because we're it's actually a hose with
holes in it, like strapped to a sea stand in
the air, and it's freezing cold water and it's pelting
down and we're trying to keep our eyes open, you know.
But all of those things. To go through that kind
of stuff with another person is always just bonding and fun.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
You also write about one of your biggest regrets from
your time on One Tree Hill, and you talked about
this in the memoir. It's with Sophia Bush, and you
said you were going through your own insecurities at the time.
She was probably going through some things of her own
at the time, but that you really wish quote I
could go back and time to her trailer and give
her a really big hug. Yeah, talk to me about that.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Oh, I don't know what else sort is to say.
I mean, I I agonized over how exactly to write
that out, because I have such a deep well of
emotions around her and around the cast members that I
was able to get really close with at that time
in spite of the fact that I was in this
(24:30):
environment in my personal life, there were people that always
made an effort and she was one of them. And
so I just have this. I mean, like I said,
my heart just always turns into a bear hug when
I think of her, like I just want to I
just want to give her a hug. And I wish
that I had been older in my like I wish
(24:53):
I had known what I know now to be able
to just sometimes the people that feel prickly in your
life are actually the people that just need a big hug.
I know I needed a big hug. Yeah, and I
think maybe she did too, and I so, yeah, do
you think.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
You'll ever have that conversation one day? Do you hope
to just kind of talking about everything you both were
going through.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Yeah, We've had many conversations, and I think we'll probably
continue to as the years go on. There's so many
things that just constantly evolve. But I don't know if
I've ever actually told her that, So hopefully she'll appreciate.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
That well, I would think. So it's a very interesting
to say, for sure. Yeah, Joy, there are so many
things swirling about about a reboot right, and everybody lives
in of nostalgia and it's so wild to me that
you created something that literally like helped people have joy,
you know, pun intended in their own lives when you
(25:51):
were going through something so wild in your life. You
let this relationship, this character, this freedom, this joy, this
piece of pop culture with people that they still talk
about it. They still are like, oh my god, we
rewatch it over and over and over again. We're now
showing our teenagers we want to reboot. So there's a
lot being said about is a reboot happening, is it
not happening. You've expressed you would be down to do
(26:13):
it should that opportunity come about, and depending on what
that looks like, have there been any other conversations about that,
and do you really think this could happen because a
lot of people are holding on to hope.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Oh it's so sweet. I know. I hear both sides
of it. Like some people are like, no, just leave
it alone. It's perfect as it is, and then some
people are frothing at the bit like please please give
us more, which I love. I just love either way
how passionate fans are about what they went through with
us and how they feel about the future. But in
(26:45):
terms of actual information, I don't have anything new. There's
just been. I just I don't know what stage it's in.
I don't know who's really involved. I don't know almost
anything about it, so we just have to wait. Sorry.
I wish I had a better answer for you.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
That's all right, and life were worth the wait, So yes,
I'm gladly going to wait on that one. But I'm
so curious kind of jumping off of that and with
what you've gone through and the PTSD of maybe what
you experienced, I would imagine there was some level of
that in your healing journey as Yeah, do you ever
worry like if a reboot came around, would I have
(27:21):
a seat at the table or would I not be
invited because of what I went through and what people
remembered from my time on the show, Like does your
mind go there that you have to snap it out
of that?
Speaker 2 (27:31):
No, because everyone was so generous. I think that was
one of the biggest surprises when I left the group,
and you know, I left after I had we had
wrapped in Wilmington, so I didn't go back to North Carolina,
And there are sometimes I wish I had left a
little bit sooner so that I could have gone back
and really invested in those relationships in a new and
meaningful way, but that just wasn't in the cards at
(27:53):
the time. I feel like everyone was so kind and
generous though in as I would start to leak out
this information, like yeah, actually I was in a really
bad situation and I got out. I was met not
with people saying I told you so, but people just
having big open arms and saying we're here, we love you,
(28:15):
We see who you are in spite of all of
the stuff that you were carrying. And there's good and
bad parts to everybody's personality character, we're all complex humans.
But to realize that people were actually able to see
through a lot of the superiority complex, the stubbornness, the youth,
(28:40):
stubborn youth that I was existing in and see like, no,
she's a person that's worth having around, just a person
that I still want to maintain a friendship with and
invest in in spite of all those things that really
blew me away. It was the most astonishing display of
grace that I've felt like I didn't deserve, and there
(29:01):
were a lot of people from the show that really
gave that to me, and it kind of makes me
emotional It makes me so happy. Like every time we
go back and do these conventions with whether in Wilmington
or Paris or wherever we get to go and all
get together as a group. I wish our crew was
with us too, But I have such fomo if we're
not together, I'm like, where's everybody going to dinner? What's happening?
(29:24):
I just want to know everything. I want to be
a part of it. Also, I don't miss anything else.
It's a wonderful group of people.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah. Having that grace in life is something that I
think the whole world needs to have more of right now.
And when you go through something like that and you
realize how gentle and graceful people are with you, it
really makes you look at life, I imagine, in a
different perspective. So it's really cool to hear that the
cast was very much like that with you. And before
(29:50):
we move on to a part of this memoir that
I am going to read back to you because it
blew me away. Oh okay, yes I am. I have
a very big problem in media when people try to
pin people against each other. So I want to take
a quick second and say, I just heard you want
call your daddy you brought up the rumors, speculator, the
(30:13):
rumors around you and Hillary. You very graciously said you're
working some things out, you hope to work them out,
and that's that. But now I'm seeing online there are
things coming out like if there's a reboot, you might
not be a part of it because of whatever that is.
And I just want to put this out there because
I feel like my job as an interviewer is to
not encourage our behavior because it's bullshit and I don't
(30:36):
like when women get pinned against each other. I think
it's disgusting and it's gross and it gives people a
bad name who are in this business. So from your perspective,
like you don't believe that would be true, whatever's going
on there would not affect your involvement in a potential reboot.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
So crazy to me, all of this. I love Hillary.
I have no ill will toward her. I have no
like I would never want to go back to a
One Tree Hill reboot with animosity, like that's just that's
not who either of us are. So yeah, and I
(31:14):
agree with you, it's not helpful. It's not helpful, particularly
because actually the irony of the fact that I am
trying to tell people a story about what happens in
group triangulation when other people come in and they start
taking somebody's words and taking another person's words and trying
to create something that's not there, and gaslighting and all
(31:35):
of these things. And everybody is like, Okay, we love
your book, but also like, can you please tell us
what's happening with Hillary? Just like this is crazy to me.
Do you understand that you're doing exactly what I'm talking about?
This triangulation is so not helpful.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
This is me off. That's why I would never sit
here and say, oh, tell me, I don't care, it's
not my lin.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I appreciate it. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
The point is like, I don't want people running with
the story that that's affecting whatever that project is. So
thank you for clarity.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
We're going to run with things all the time.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Well, this is me off. I'm a Jersey brilliant woman.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
That's what I'm saying. You know what I mean, come on,
we're gonna have sometime great may let's talk about this
all right.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Well that's good to know because we're all rooting for
that reboot to happen, and we all of course want you,
and there's in my opinion, no reboot without you.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So oh thanks.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Anyway, back to the cult. That's for a transition.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
No, it's good. It is a good segue because what
we were just talking about, you know, there's like people
people getting involved in other people's relationships.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
So yes, yes, yes, Well the Cult took I think
two million dollars from you, if not more. And there's
a moment in your memoir where you're sitting in the
bank and you have a really gracious teller trying to
help you sort this out, and that moment comes to mind,
you know, comes to fruition, and you were just kind
of like, wait what and this is what you wrote.
I highlighted this because it was so wait can you see.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
It where it's whoa, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Oh I'm someone that like mark books and you.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Don't even know what that does to me seeing my
book in someone's hands, the way that I mark up
and write on books. This is a really really amazing moment.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Wow, that's crazy. My husband's like, oh, I want to
read it. I'm like, don't mind, mom on notes now,
I'll send it one perfect okay, But this is what
you said and that moment finding out that two million
dollars was gone in that bank. What a waste of space.
I was, a waste of talent, of time I had
thrown away what little spare time I had chasing a
god I was now not even sure existed, enduring years
(33:39):
of abuse with a pathetic cult of selfish people, and
living in a place where every dream I had went
to die. Oh yeah, Wow, that moment for you must
have been what I imagine is one of the hardest
moments you've ever faced in your life.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Huh Yeah, Just the depth self loathing, the realization crashing
down of like, I have wasted so much time. I
cannot believe that I had so much at my feet.
I had so much opportunity. And I'm not saying to
build myself up. I had opportunity to participate in the world,
(34:19):
in the communities that I was in, participate in art
and storytelling, to be able to learn and listen. And
these key years, especially in your twenties, when you are
gathering up so much around you that you're going to
we're like little beavers. We're gathering all the things and
we're building. We're building the dam of our character and
(34:41):
our personality and like, who are we going to be?
And I was siphoning those things off of an environment
that was a mirage. It's just it was really, really devastating,
and I just hated myself.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Are you at a place in your life where you
no longer beat yourself up for mistakes that were made
in the past or for things you wish you did differently,
Because that's a moment that I just read where that
person really truly seems like she hated herself. And we
all go through things in our lives where we might
(35:19):
feel like that. I certainly have had my own journey
specifically related to my sexualities, so we all have our things.
But are you able to not beat yourself up over
your experience? Now?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I have fundamental neural wiring that I am trying to
grow new pathways where I don't beat myself up as
a default for everything. However, in terms of flogging myself
(35:56):
for my past in this story and everything that you
read and seen that I walked through, I have come
to peace with almost everything in that book there is.
I don't feel angry. I don't there are very few
moments where I feel like I missed out on something
(36:17):
and That's also hugely because I've found a place in
my spiritual journey to be able to release the shame
by talking about it, by sharing, by forgiving myself one
day at a time. So there's new things all the
time that I beat myself up about and have days
when I'm just like, you're such a fucking idiot, Oh
(36:39):
my god, why did you say that? Why did you
do that? And I'm trying to relearn that behavioral pattern.
I don't really know where it originated or why I
do that, but I'm working on it. But it's not
necessarily now related to that time in my past.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Well that's good to hear. We're all works in progress, right,
We're never going to be perfect. But to know that
you're not the person in that moment anymore and you're
not going to be so hard on yourself, I think
is a huge step in the right direction. And also
by even releasing this memoir, there's a moment towards the
end of the book where what you said changed everything
(37:16):
for me. And as I mentioned when I first met
you in the beginning of this interview, being someone who
maybe thought a certain way or the thought crossed my mind,
not that I ever thought so deeply about it. But
you know, the thoughts that I mentioned earlier to cross
my mind. What you said at the end to a
former friend at a party about is a woman in
(37:37):
an abusive relationship who doesn't leave stupid And I'm paraphrasing there.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
To put it in that context, in that perspective, and
to equate being in a cult and dealing with the
type of behavior that you were receiving as abusive, right,
and abuse exists in many forms, was really this oh
my god moment where I thought, holy shit, Yeah, yeah,
(38:05):
it is the same. It is the same. You would
never say that about a woman who was going through that,
and why should you think that about someone going through
what you went through? And I really think that sets
it up in a very important and powerful way.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Oh thank you, gosh, that's so great to hear that
it hit you that way and came through I'm so glad. Yeah.
I don't know what to say except that that's when
I realized that the word cult was not admissible in
court because it's not definable. The closest definition that a
(38:39):
courtroom will accept is high demand group, which has its
own sort of checklist of whether, and different judges may
deem it differently, whether it was qualified, whether something qualifies
as a high demand group. Some may say any church does,
and some may say only the most extreme where there's
physical violence happening. And so there's this very strange, undefinable
(39:03):
space that the word cult or high demand group lives in.
But one thing that I think really is definable is
community abuse, community manipulation when there's a top down trickle,
and that could be in a workplace, that could be
in a religious environment, that could be at a gym,
(39:25):
like there's so many different places where you could find that.
But the function, because it's from top down, the function
of it is the same in a romantic partnership abusive
relationship because the personality disorder that causes the ripple effect
is the same. So whether that personality is more attracted
(39:46):
to controlling a group of people or more attracted to
controlling one person, that's a variant, but the actual malignant
narcissism is the same. And so the people who get
caught up in it, whether it's a singular person caught
in the partnership or a group of people, they're all
(40:08):
singular people caught up in a version of a partnership.
It's just with one person at the top and then
with other people on the side. It actually, I think
narcissists prey on intelligent empaths. So the chance is that
you are a really intelligent person who's not stupid, who's
not weak, and then got caught up in something like
(40:29):
this are higher. If that makes sense. I kind of
feel like I'm turning my sentence upside down, But it
would make sense for you to be attracted to someone
with a narcissistic personality. If you're an intelligent EmPATH, that
doesn't make you stupid or weak or crazy. It's just
is how the personality disorder works, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
It doesn't make you stupid, weak, or crazy. Bears repeating,
because we need to erase that sort of judgment period.
And I think it was a really important point that
you made. Now, is your relation, like with God, whatever
that means to you, has that been rebuilt for you?
Has it been changed? What is it?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I mean, is anyone's relationship with God definable? I can
say that it's the most authentic relationship with God that
I've ever had because I feel so much more safe
and loved. Now that I've accepted that I can't do
(41:29):
anything to earn that love. Now I feel like, Okay,
I'm safe to make mistakes. I'm because you're going to
turn it into something good. It doesn't mean I'm going
to run around trying to do stupid things, obviously, But
I don't feel the sense of anxiety around decision making
that I used to when I didn't trust myself and
(41:49):
thought I needed somebody else to tell me how to
live my life. I don't feel like I have to
hit all the points on the checklist of whatever, any group,
any religion, anything is telling me I need to do
in order to earn my way into God's favor. I've
(42:12):
experienced too much to believe that that's the way that
it's meant to be. I don't think that works for anyone.
I really don't, and I know I guess it can
be kind of polarizing to say like I have some
existential answer. But I've never met anybody who is really
satisfied by living everything off the checklist, who really feels
(42:33):
like they're seen and known and loved. That just feels
like earning to me. So I don't have all the answers.
But I do have a much more authentic relationship with
God than I ever did. I feel more free And what.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
A beautiful feeling that must be. Yeah, Oh, I love
hearing that. It's so nice to see when someone comes
out of something so traumatizing and still has such a
beautiful sense of hope. And I think that's really a
really important message as well to put out there.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Joy.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
The name of this show is I've never said this before.
I know, I'm trying to think as we were, oh,
you know what's coming as we wrap up. I feel
like I've been so open already in this whole conversation.
But in the spirit of the show name, is there
anything you can think of whatever that question means to you,
no right or wrong answer that you've never said before
(43:28):
that you want to share today.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
This is so hard for me because I I mean, honestly,
this is one of the biggest missions in my just
in my own personal life. Once I left this group
and started realizing how much shame was isolating me, I
started to just talk about it and say things, and
I just I'm like, a, you can't shut me up,
Like I just want to say all the things so
(43:52):
that it doesn't get locked in my own body. Obviously,
you know I'm not. I'm not trying to un to
give everybody every piece of information ever, But you know,
I just want to be open and honest. I want
to live that kind of a life. So I don't
know what I would have never said. I say all
(44:13):
the bad words. Now I say, I say I love
you to all the people. Gosh, I wonder, I bet
there's something like I haven't ever said to my parents.
Maybe like I'm still scared of having vulnerable conversations with
my parents. Hmmm. Like it's just I'm scared of emotion.
(44:37):
I'm trying, I'm working on it, but like being in
front of people, it's the same thing that I talk
about in the beginning of the book, like, oh my god,
I'm crying in front of a whole bunch of people.
This is terrifying. I still feel that. And when I'm
with somebody that I really care about and I start crying,
I feel all kinds of uncomfortable things that I don't
know how to deal with. I don't know if I've
(44:58):
ever just flat outside to my parents and I'm sorry
for what I put you through in those ten years
I think we've danced around versions of that, but I
don't think i've ever just flat out said that. So Mom, Dad,
I'm really sorry for what I put you through for
the last well those those ten years that's been. It's
(45:20):
been a while out of it now, but yeah, and
thank you for sticking by me and for your patience
and grace.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
That's beautiful. I hope you send this to them because
that really that really is it?
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Colum?
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah, well, I hope you do that too. But that's
that's a beautiful thing to share and share it so publicly,
and I think we always have things we wish we
said to parents or whoever that we haven't, So thank
you for sharing that, and thank you for being open.
I mean, I know it's still probably a lot for you,
So I hope you feel good with this conversation and
then sharing.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
You're lovely. I really enjoyed talking with you, and thank
you for actually really diving into the book and taking
so much out of it and being able to communicate
really intelligently about it emotional intelligence as well. You're so
well prepared and just easy to talk to and so positive,
like this was really really nice experience. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Oh well, thank you, thank you, and on our way out. Yeah,
because I'm a theater loving boy. Oh yes, I'm here.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Why were we talking about that for the last hour.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
I allow you two more hours, and I got to
get you out the door. You have somewhere to be.
But I know that you are offered bell right in
be and the Beast, and you turn that down because
of the cult. So let's do a little manifesting moment
right here. Oh if even theater is something still on
your radar? Yeah, what would be one or two or
(46:48):
three rolls or shows that you would want to be
a part of on Broadway? Oh my gosh, whether it's
out now or not.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Think Haitiestown would be a ball. I don't know if
I could grunge my voice up enough like the Amber,
but I would love to try. And Satine. I had
one of the worst auditions of my life for Satine.
It was really comical. It was like a producer session
(47:18):
and I just totally choked, Like I did super well
in the music session with the producer ahead of time,
and it was like things were looking really good for me,
and there were like six girls that were going back.
It was replacing Karen for a Broadway and then they
were doing the West End cast and all this and
uh oh, man, I don't know what happened. I walked
(47:39):
in that room and my brain just went too fast
and my mouth slowed down and I couldn't I couldn't
do it. I totally choked. But then Courtney, Uh oh, shoot,
what's her last name? I know her? It was Courtney
because I know her through a friend. So we met
and she was just Courtney to me. But anyway, she's
the girl that did Aladdin, er Jasmine and Aladdin, and
(48:00):
she got Satina. She's doing fabulous job. But yeah, I
would really enjoy that. I think that would be a
really fun role if I could have another chance to
not completely fuck it up.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
That was all right, Well we put it out there
so broadby producers. I hope you listening. Let's go, let's
do it. Let's do it. Joy, thank you again. I
had so much fun hanging out with you. Your memoir
is out right now. Everybody can go order it. Best
place to order it.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
Oh, you can do Amazon, you can do Barnes and Noble. Yeah.
I don't know how all the rigamarole works with like
numbers and sales from particular avenues and stuff, but I
would just say go, yeah, go grab it on Amazon
or at Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Dinner for Vampire is out now. Thank you, my friend.
I hope you can do that again. This was lovely,
It really was.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
Thank you so much, thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
I've Never Said This Before is hosted by me, Tommy Didario.
This podcast is executive produced by Andrew Piblisi at iHeartRadio
and by me Tommy, with editing by Joshua Colaudney. I've
Never Said This Before is part of the Elvis Duran
podcast Network on iHeart Podcasts. For more, rate review and
subscribe to our show and if you liked this episode,
(49:17):
tell your friends. Until next time, I'm Tommy Diderio.
Host
Tommy DiDario
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