April 15, 2025 • 46 mins
Meet Jen Statsky, television writer and comedian. She is the co-showrunner and co-creator of Hacks, for which she has received Emmys, WGA Awards, and a Peabody Award. She's also written on Parks and Recreation, Broad City, Lady Dynamite, and The Good Place. The fourth season of Hacks just started airing this past week. I hope you enJOY!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come
and see my brand new comedy hour. Well it's actually
it's about an hour and a half and I don't
have an opener because these guys cost money. But what
I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while. Anyway,
Come and see me live on the Pants on Fire
Tour in your region. Tickets our own sale now, and
we'll be adding more as the tour continues throughout twenty
(00:23):
twenty five and beyond. For a full list of dates,
go to the Craig Ferguson show dot com. See you
on the road, my DearS. My name is Craig Ferguson.
The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to
interesting people about what brings them happiness. Hello, my DearS,
(00:46):
Now look for my money. One of the best shows
on TV right now is the show called Hacks, which
is on HBO or Max or whatever they call it now.
But it's a great show. It's co created by my
guest today. It was a fascinating a very very clever
individual by the name of James Statsky. Enjoy. You see,
(01:16):
that's how they're doing TV. You just go five four
three two, and then you don't see anything else in
the one I have works on TV in ages though
you still work in DV Do they still do that?
Oh no, you do single cameras, so.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I do single camera. But so there's no there's no countdown.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
But I'm trying to remember because I started in Late Night,
and I think we had a countdown.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I think we had the five four three two.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah, you were on Jimmy's Chauffeur. That was your first gig,
wasn't it that.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
That was my first job.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
That was my first writing job, Late Night with Jimmy
Fallon back in twenty eleven.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So you were You were doing that at the same
time I was doing yeah late night.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, we're both. Did you child from Late Night? I
did watch your show, Yes, of course.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yes, you are an excellent interviewer, which I'm sure you've
been told many times over the years.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thank you. I feel like that it is an odd,
weird skill. Did you ever see the movie Demolition Man.
It's one of Sandra Bullok's early movies.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
No, I never did.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
There's a Sandra Bullock movie called Demolition Man, and I
call it Sandra Bulok movie. He's a Sylvester stallone movie
and he's Sylvester Stone and Wesley Snipes and he gets
cryogenically frozen and then has to catch a criminal in
the future. A lot of movies were like that back
in the day. During his cryogenics, he the computer implanted
(02:39):
in his head that he knew how to knit. It
was a joke in the film, and he was mystified
by that. And that's like my skills for interviewing. I
have no idea where I came about that. I certainly
didn't study for it or have I any academic training,
but I feel like I can do it.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I think you're right, Yeah, you definitely can't.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Did you find, like before you became a host that
like in conversations, like you're good at like being interested
in people and asking them questions like did it feel
natural visa viu moving through the world?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
That kind of was a skill. No, not at all.
In fact, I'm quite misanthropic. I am. I'm quite shy,
and but aggressively shy. So I don't just like go
oh oh, I'm like we want to go keep away
from me? That kind of shy, you know what I mean?
I suspect, you know, I write a lot, and I
(03:35):
know that that is what you do a lot of
and I think a lot of people who write are
quite like that. There are you like that. I'm like
that too.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I'm pretty like one on one I really like to
connect with the person.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But if I'm like at a party, I'm definitely going
to be the person probably talking the least and a
little bit quiet, which sometimes comes off as like standoffish,
and people think you're like not the friendliest, but it's
it's not that it at all.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
It's not. It's more that I am, yeah, just kind
of more internal.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I think we should speak out against parties. I think
the parties are being forced on as by people who
like parties. But yeah, I really like parties that much.
A small group of people is all right, go out
for there, maybe go and see something.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
But sure, sure I like a party, but there's it's
brutal when you are not in the mood for one
and you have to go.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
That is that's one of life's worst situations to be in.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I can't think of the last time I was in
the mood for a party, or even two parties. But
let me just say this though, I have to say this,
right now, which is congratulations on the success of Hacks
and thanks. I think just someone who's it's very rare,
like you know, like when people cops, when they watch
(04:58):
cop shows, go a, that's not what it's really like
being a call. Yeah, well I bore attacks now like
as exactly what it's like, as exactly thank.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
You, that is exactly just like that is such a
lovely compliment, and it means so much coming from you,
you know, like when we started making the show, we
were like, this is a horrible tightrope walk we're doing,
which is to portray a comedy portraying comedians and the
life of a comedian. And we always said like if
real stand ups and now late night hosts like yourself
(05:30):
can watch it and feel like it is capturing something real,
will have you know, kind of cleared that this really
high bar we said for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
So it really means a lot to hear that from you.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well so much so. The truth of it is this
that the relationship between the two main protagonists and Hikes,
it's so similar to a relationship that I have with
a guy who is now writes for me all the time.
Oh ah, who was on my show. I know if
you remember, he stopped off as an intern and he
(06:01):
became the front end of the pantomime Horse used to
dance around. Well, now he writes all the time. He
produces for Netflix and stuff like that, and he writes
for me. Joe Bolter is Joe Bolter?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah right? And Joe and I so much. So. When
I saw the first season of Hacks, I called Joe
and I said, are you in the writer's room on
that show?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
You?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Are you being doing stuff on that show? And he
said no, he said, but I've seen it and it's spooky.
There are episodes there was I think it was the
first season, could have been the second. You'll know, I'm
sure when Debra says, we have to go to Vegas,
and they go to Vegas and then they you know,
they go in a plane somewhere and they come back
and mix it up with my own life. I said
(06:45):
to Joe once, I'm doing a show in Vegas, and
he said, I can't come. I have to see my parents.
I said, we'll be back by ten o'clock. And when
I took him to Van Night's Airport and we got
on this plane and we go out to the Las
Vegas and we did the show, we came back. It
was all done in two hours, three hours maybe, and
if there was something like that in Hacks And he
was like, it's so the same, right down to our
(07:08):
argument about comedy. When I would be very cranky about,
you know, the new rules of comedy, and he would say,
there are no new rules of comedy. You just have
to be funny, which I think is possibly true. There
was a time there when I was very worried about
(07:30):
the dogma of the next generation of comedy, but I'm
not anymore. I think it's really funny.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
You were worried because you felt like we were treading
into a place where we weren't, Like comedy wasn't being
valued or.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
What was it that was worrying you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I think more it was about the idea. And you've
had Debra say these words like it's great to see
a character where you go, yes, yes, that's right, you know,
and then you realize, wait, this is the cranky old lady,
myocracy old lady. Right, I kind of have a little
bit yeah, but it's the idea that I think for
(08:08):
a while, I don't believe this anymore, but I did
for a while there think that they're saying, or the
young people are saying, that certain areas of comedy are
off limits and you can't make jokes about that, which
I don't believe. I believe that you must be able
to make jokes about whatever you can make funny. It's
not like there are taboo subjects. I think that that.
I mean, there's bad jokes, but I think tabli yeah,
(08:31):
you know, yeah, and that. But also the retrogression look
at material that you had done before attitudes changed, and
picking up on that was a very weird thing because like, well,
I did that joke ten years ago, I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Do it now, you know, right, right, And that's very
much so, you know, we did that last season when
Deborah goes back to her alma mater college and is
taken to task by the students there for old material,
and we very much wanted to have this exact conversation
that you're saying and kind of talk about, Yes, times change,
and you know, there's things that we were joking about
(09:08):
at the time and now we have moved on and
understand as a society that that was not right. And
you know, it's a conversation between feeling what Debora feels
is she feels very like persecuted in that moment, and
she's like, but I've always tried to be on the
right side of history. I just had these jokes that
at the time went right, and Ava was sort of
saying yes. And it's also the right of people who
(09:29):
hear those jokes down to say like this is this
is painful and this was not great, and there's an understanding.
Like you know, one thing we're always trying to do
with the show is have each character be both right
and wrong, because it's amazing. It's way more interesting to
see a conversation between two people where they're both right
and wrong, versus like if Deborah was just wholly in
(09:50):
the wrong, it's less of an interesting conversation. So that one,
in particular, was you know, really important for us to
do because that is such a conversation in comedy these days.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Like you're saying, it's funny.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
The interesting thing about it as well, And what what
I very much like about the portrayal of Debra is
that it's unapologetic. It's it's very kind of she's still funny,
you know, which I love that the idea of it,
did you have this because I mean, it seems funny
to say this to you, but you you're kind of
(10:22):
you get to the point of veteran status. Now I've
been doing it for a while. I know it's weird
how fast it happens. As well, it is like, oh
my god, I know it's great.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Well talking about like starting on you know, Fallen was
my first job and I was twenty for twenty five
years old when I got that job, and like now
I've been doing it now, I'm thirty nine, Like I've
been doing it for a decade and a half, and
it feels crazy, like you're saying, because I still feel
like that kid who started in dirty rock, like writing
monologue jokes for Jimmy.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So yeah, it is.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
It's it's wild to kind of have had the luck
that I've had in this career and gotten to move
from late night to now making Hacks and all the
shows I've been lucky enough to work on in between.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, because you worked in the Good Place as well,
which was another kind of groundbreaker, is another real wonderful show.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, the Good Place.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
You know, I value my time on that show so
much and make sure who created that, you know, did
something so brilliant with that show, which was it was
a network sitcom, but it was so original in its
idea and its conception and what we were trying to
do with the stories we were trying to do.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
And so yeah, I feel really lucky to have to
have worked on that.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Hello, this is Greig Ferguson and I want to let
you know I have a brand new stand up comedy
special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm So Happy,
and I would be so happy if you checked it out.
To watch the special, just go to my YouTube channel
at the Craig Ferguson Show and is this right there?
Just click it and play it and it's free. I
(12:04):
can't look. I'm not going to come around you, husband
and show you how to do it. If you can't
do it, then you can have it. But if you
can figure it out, it's yours, the three of you
that came up with hacks. Therese you and remind me
Paul W.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Dwan's and Lucianello.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah right, And did you all come up together? Is
that something that? Do you all know each other earlier?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
It was came organically from that.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, we basically all met doing like sketch and improv
and stand up in New York City. So back in
like Lucci and I my senior year at NYU, I
was in this sketch group that was kind of an
offshoot of the Upright Citizens Brigade theater, and Lucci and
I were the only girls in the sketch group, and
we kind of instantly gravitated towards each other in our
(12:53):
senses of humor. And I really loved her and thought
she was so so talented. And then she introduced me
to Paul, and they had been doing sketches as a
two man group and making things and Paul, you know
again same just instantly was like, Oh, these are the
funniest people, and just had a real instant kinship and
knew that I wanted to work with them.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Is it something that still exists? Do you make each
other laugh in the writer's room still? We do? Yeah? Yeah,
we do.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
You know, we kind of show Oh thanks, yeah, we really.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
You know, when we started the show, we made a
promise to ourselves that we wouldn't ever let it interfere
with our friendship, but we would always try to like
protect that first and always kind of honor the fact
that this started because we just genuinely loved making each
other laugh and try to hold on to that as
we move through the process. And I think that like
(13:46):
that is only proven more and more true as we've
gone on, because as the show has been successful, and
we've been lucky to have this show be successful, like,
the bigger it gets, you actually kind of can't take
it all in and think about that if you start
thinking about doing it for a review or doing it
for an award, it just kind of can. It can
be overwhelming and eat away at you. And so I
(14:07):
think even the bigger the show has gotten, the more
wheeling into trying to just rely on like does Paul
think this good? Does Lucia think this is good? And
then expanding it out through there like do our writers
think this is good? And the other people who work
in the show thing is good? And trying to keep
it concentrated like that.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, It's an interesting thing because the idea of success
is such an odd kind of ingredient creatively, I think
it does very odd things to creative people. It does
odd things to anyone. Yeah, but if you add success
and fame and then there is this thing. I remember
(14:46):
the example I will give you is this is that
when I started in late night, people immediately began ask
me because I was working for David Letterman behind a
worldwide pants and Dave was doing the eleven thirty show
and I was doing twelve thirty. And immediately people started saying,
are you going to take over from Dave? Like before
(15:07):
I even started, right, And I said, no, I have
no interest in that, that's not my thing, and they they,
and also, I'm just starting this job. And it almost
seems like in the world of show business. I don't
gonna say, Hollywood, but it's so much kind of not
that anymore. But in the world of show business, it
(15:27):
seems to me people used to say, what have you
done lately? Now it seems to be it's what are
you doing next? Well, you haven't done, Yeah, it is
more important.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, I used to It's so interesting you bring this
up because I used to think this all the time,
because when I was lucky enough to be a staff
writer on like Parks and Recreation or The Good Place
or broad City, people would always say, but when are
you going to do your own show? But you want
to run your own show, right, And of course I
did eventually go on to do that with Hucks. But
it was such an interesting thing that people kind of
(16:00):
put you on this ladder, even if you yourself are
not thinking that way. And it's very much so like,
but what's the next thing, what's the next thing? Which
is really counterintuitive to your process as an artist because
you really are just trying to stay present and focus
on making the thing you're doing in that moment good.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Well it's and also it's an odd thing because I
get it's ten years since I left Late Night, right,
and people say to me, you know, they still say
less so now because they're all dead to the people
who remember that I was on TV. But the well
people will say why did you leave? And I said, look,
it's mental health. It's like this if I don't know
how other people deal with it. But if I walk
(16:41):
into a building every day, every five days a week,
and there are pictures of me everywhere, but everywhere I
go with those giant pictures of me, and then there's
all the stationary all the paper has my name on it,
and my name is everywhere, and there's me everywhere, and
there's a hundred fifty people in the building and all
(17:02):
they are doing is making sure I am in a
good mood. Nobody wants to bring me any bad news,
know what. They want me to be good for the show. Yeah,
that makes you fucking crazy, Dan.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I know that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
It's really wild because you're one of like ten people
right that I could talk to about this because I
lived on the other side of that, like when I
started fell in and this was not you know, Jimmy
didn't say to say this.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
This was coming from someone who worked for him.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
He said, fifty percent of this job is writing good
jokes and fifty percent is being friends with Jimmy. That
was like, that was the attitude that people around you had.
And I'm sure, as you're saying, you didn't even put
that out there. You didn't come in and say I
need everything to revolve around me and everybody needs to
be doing all these things to make me happy.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
But it happens.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It's just what it does when there is a central
figure at the head of a show that well, I
don't know, it's kind of this like almost like it's
like a king in the kingdom, like all the people
in the court doing all these machinations to like make
him happy. But then also kind of like it turns
into people being cut throat with each other because everybody's
(18:17):
trying to protect this one person and their.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Access to that person. And it occurs to you, this
is what I'm interested because in the next season, you're
putting Debra in that position. You're putting Debora into being
a late night host, which I love, and I want
to get to that because it's very important thing. I
want to talk to you about that. But the idea
of this thing occurs. I've once heard about David Letterman
(18:40):
before I was ever on the show, before I was
ever on Dave's show, somebody had said, oh, no, you're
not allowed to look Dave directly in the eye. You
must correctly, and I if you walk down recorder, you
have to look away. And I was like, really, And then,
you know, I've since met David's quite a lot. And
if I didn't look up in the eye, think I
was weird. You know, Yeah, I think he thinks I'm
(19:04):
weird anyway. But the idea of that was so odd
to me, and I heard that. Then I heard about
Jennifer Lopez. For some reason, she was against Donna. It
wasn't even my show. She was in the building and
someone said, don't look at her directly, and it was
always this same phrase, don't look at that directly in
the eye. Oh my god, I've never heard that. And
then I heard that about five different people. And then
(19:25):
I heard that about myself. Oh no way, yeah, somebody said,
oh I heard that, some one of an old friend
of a writer who was you know who I brought
into the show, who's an old friend of mine from
the old Country, and he was like, what's this. Don't
look you directly in the eye. Shit. It was like,
oh my god, don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Right, And that must be really crazy to be a
public crazy.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, it makes you crazy. I could. When Seth Meyers started,
he called me up and he said, I'm very excited
and he was just phoning all the other hosts and
I said, it'll make you crazy sense he said, I
don't think it will. I don't think it will. I
saw him at Rangers game maybe about a few or
four months ago, and I don't think it has made
him crazy. I think he's okay.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I think that if he I think is a rare guy. That, yeah,
he seems because I know something he seems right. Yeah, yeah,
totally but like.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
That is something with this season that we wanted to
pay homage to the fact that late night is such
a grind, and I don't think people totally realize, Like
for the host of a late night show, it's kind
of like, I think it's the hardest job you can
have while also being super famous, because it is such
a grind.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's five days a week.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
It is like relentless and like you're saying everything it
almost sounds like you'd be nice in some ways, like oh,
everything revolves around you and everyone's trying to make you happy,
but like you're saying that in itself can become its
own kind of prison and wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
It's great for about a month, yes, yes, yeah, and
then you're like, wait a minut it. You had a
friend who was a cop in Bakersfield and he gave
it up and he said, I hate being a cop
because everybody lies to you all the time. I said,
that's exactly what it's like being a late night hosts
you and even if they're not, you think they are.
(21:17):
You know, it's very weird.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Do you ever miss it?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
No?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I miss sometimes the fun I had on stage because
the people that I worked with on stage Josh Robert Thompson,
who did the Skeleton Robot and my show. I had
a very small crew of performers and we were kind
of a rep. It wasn't even a rep. It was
just like it was like half a dozen different people
and they would cycle through. And I missed that kind
(21:45):
of almost like upright Citizens Brigade kind of Groundland's vibe.
I missed the team, but I don't miss I don't
miss fucking television executives. And I think that the new
democratic kind of form of making content. I like the
(22:10):
idea of being able to speak directly to the audience
because that's what stand up is and I kind of
like that. And I'm kind of, I mean, an admiration
of you and others in your position who can exist
in the world of television because you are an artist
and you create art. But what a lot of people
(22:30):
don't see is the meetings that you're having with people
who are extremely difficult for me to deal with. I mean,
it's not their fault, it's just we see the world
different and I have a very hard time with it.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Well, I think you'll like this season quite a bit, then,
because this season is really focusing on that intersection of
art and commerce and how difficult it can be, and
also just you know, even since you've left Late Night,
how even I think more difficult called it's gotten with
the tremendous pressure on each individual show and property to
(23:05):
like expand beyond. You know, it's not just enough to
just be one singular show and get decent ratings, Like
you're saying, content and expanding, you know, all of that,
Like all of that comes into play now in a
way that it feels like there's there's a heavier hand
on like perhaps the commerce side.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Of it that makes it even more difficult. And not
our executives.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
We have been really lucky and that they're so wonderful
at HBO, and they foster creativity and they're so supportive.
But I think Late Night in particulars and this's really,
as has been discussed many times, a very interesting moment.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
It is an odd thing. And I think while I
was looking at why I'm excited to see the new
season because Debra, I thought, correct me if I'm wrong.
I mean, you created the character. But I always thought
one of the archetypes for Therera would be Joan Revers
that I thought that I don't know. If you know
the story about Joan Rivers in Late Night and how
poorly she was treated when she got her own show,
(24:06):
I'm sure you do. Yeah, And I always thought that's
really fucking unfair what happened.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Now I know it's so heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
I know, yeah, yes, we you know, there's many people
that Debra's and and malcolmission of and certainly Droan is
one of them that we talked about a lot and
researched a lot. And yeah, she got such a raw
deal with with the Tonight Show and being banned from
it and then her show.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
That's really it's.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Heartbreaking because she had the audacity to do her own show, Yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Which is such a you have to think like anybody
would understand someone doing that.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I don't know. I mean it seems like maybe now
I feel like in show business. One of the things
I always loved about show business, and I really believe this,
there's room for everybody, Like everybody doesn't really matter, you
know it. I know it feels like I think, particularly
when you're young, when everybody's competitive and everyone's trying make
their bones, that you feel like if they're getting success,
(25:03):
then somehow I'm going to there's a lovely scene of
that actually in the first scene of Hacks, when they
meet in the line for that show in Vegas and
they're talking about, you know, other people who are doing
really well. Oh yeah, I love that. So true.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
There's this like kind of thing that when you're young,
you feel like someone's success is your failure. And I remember,
I remember when I started writing and was young and
doing it. I really had to like train myself out
of that way of thinking because it's so kind of negative.
I'm glad that I'm at a point in my career
(25:38):
where I don't.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Well, I think. I think a bit of success will
help you get rid of it as well, I think.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
But I hope I got I think I got rid
of it also before before, like yesterday, I think.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
But but yeah, it is true. It's really hard, especially
that career isn't where you want.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
It to be. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
That gore Vidal's which is it's not enough that I succeed,
it's that my friends have to fail. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah, and a lot of I mean, you come from
the stand up world, which I feel like is even
maybe a little more cut throat that way than an
improvert sketch where I came from. That's a lot of
still stand ups takes. I think, Oh yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I although I have to say I had a similar
conversation with Bill Hayder about this because I asked them
about when he was on Saturday Night Live, and he
took a similar route to you in a way that
you know, he came out and started, you know, and
making Barry and running the show. And I said, were
you very competitive when you were all working together as
(26:38):
Saturday Live? And he said, no, we actually wearn't. We
were quite It was quite collegiate, he said. But I
heard about it from the old the previous cast, and
he said, and he thinks it might be a generational thing,
which might be a bit like that as well. I
think for all the kind of noise that people my
(27:00):
age make about people your age, I think that actually
younger people are kind of a bit better with each other.
I think so.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
I think something I noticed in younger comedians, even the
ones that are super driven, there is less I think
people have evolved a bit out of the mentality that
someone else needs to fail for you to succeed. Like, Yeah,
I do think that hopefully there's a better kind of
collective mindset around that, I.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Guess it comes down to the individual. So when Debra
go was into late night in this season, so I'm actually,
you know, I don't know if you've gotted this. I'm
actually a huge fan of this show. I mean really,
it's there are shows that I like, Yeah, your show,
the first three seasons of The Righteous Gemstones, and then
(27:54):
and then I don't know, I'm going back.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
To maybe okay, you're going to go into a long list,
but that it ended there and then you're back to
Soprano's a show.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
From and the Wire.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
I mean, you're mash Yeah, you know what was the
the the Adams Family, you know, the original cash you know.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah, well that means that means a lot coming from you,
and I'm I am so curious. And we have been
lucky enough to hear from other late night hosts that
they liked the show. I mean, watching this season, I
hope it doesn't give you PTSD because it is firmly
in the world in which you lived, and you're one
of the only people on earth.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That has quite this experience.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I know, it's funny. I had a conversation with Jimmy
Kimmel a few years ago when he said, you know,
we this was actually before I left. It was just
as I was. He said, you know, we should all
kind of get together me, you, j Alas and stuff
and have a dinner or something, because there are so
(29:08):
few people that have done this, And I was like, nah,
I want to do that.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Why why do you say now?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I don't know, but I know that I know that
Dave would say the same thing. But what's interesting is
I feel much more sanguine and affectionate towards late night
now that I don't do it got it, And I
know that Dave is in a very similar place with it.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
You know.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I feel like like once I went diving with sharks
in the Bahamas, and I'm really glad I did it.
I'm never fucking doing it again. And that's kind of
That's kind of how I feel about it. It has
a I'm really glad that I'm proud of what we did,
but I I'm glad you're.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Happy you got out of the world when you did.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
I am. I am happy I get out of the water.
I am happy to get out of it. And so
what happens with hacked, because you're at the point now
if you're starting season four. A lot of what you're
doing now, if my timeline is correct, and what it's
like to be in charge of an operation in show business,
A lot of what you're doing now will involve being HR.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Well it's not HR, but it certainly is.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
And I have discussed this before. The interesting thing about
show running is you start as a writer. You come
up as a writer, you're like, I like writing TV.
It's something I feel like I'm good at and I
want to pursue. And then once you get your own show,
all of a sudden you're in charge of a two
hundred and fifty person corporation and there's a skill set
(30:52):
of show running that is completely different from the skill
set of writing comedy. And that has been a real
learning experience over the last you know, four or five
years now, Propology and myself, because you're right that there's
just a lot of things that you have to deal
with that you never envision having to deal with when
(31:12):
you're just unstabed.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
People's problems and their feelings about that, I know, it's like,
oh my god, yeah, and like, you know, when if
someone isn't doing like The thing I find very challenging
is knowing, you know, if someone isn't doing a great
job or it's not a great fit, like the letting
go of someone, which you know, we have luckily knock
(31:34):
on Wood haven't had to do a lot, but that
that's really difficult to me because it's very hard to
divorce the fact that this is a human being and
this is their life and their livelihood.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
And I find that to be I've really had to
do work around that because it's real. It's difficult.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Also, you will be alienated from the other side because
you become a resource to other people and you become
if you're the boss you start, you go from that
possession of being scrappy writer for Jimmy Fallen to you know,
boss lady in charge.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Did you have any I mean, I'm friendly with Marta Kaufman,
who's you know, is your rat friends and yeah, you know,
such great shows and she seems to me to be
someone who's kept her humanity through the process. Did you
do you have a mentor for that? Did you talk
to anyone? Was there anyone that you could Yeah?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I think that, you know, I was really lucky and
that I came up on Mike Sure shows so Parks
and rec and The Good Place were created by Mike Sure,
and Mike is Mike is a really excellent boss in
that he's He's just a genuinely good, deeply good person.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
And so that I think helped me. I had a
good role model for running a room in terms of that.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
And then I think though it is that like it's
a it's a good way to put it, like keeping
your humanity in staf in check with your humanity, because
I think you can get so some people get so
myopic and focused on the end goal of the show
or the you know, and you do you have to
do that. You have to be protecting the show and
protecting your work, but you also do need to stay
(33:14):
in touch with your humanity and that these are human
beings that you're working with. So it is something that's
a difficult part of it because it's exactly in play
in you is the intersection of art and commerce. You're
trying to stay creative and vulnerable to create something real
and funny and truthful, but you're also having to be
management and make some decisions along the way that maybe
(33:38):
emotion doesn't serve you as well. And so it's a
really interesting thing to balance, and I hope over the
years I've only gotten better at it because it's a
difficult thing.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
It is a difficult thing, and it isn't ultimately I think.
I think for me, I had to make a choice,
but I gotta go ye on this, And I think
that what I think is fascinating about it is that
the people I know who have gone through your the
(34:10):
probably like going through a showrunner's type life. You know,
if you look at well, I suppose a great archetype
for it would be Larry David. Yes, yeah, you know,
going to that if I look at I mean, I
always liked Seinfeld. Who didn't like Seinfeld? But having watched
Curb Your Enthusiasm, Seinfeld is a much better show. It's
(34:33):
a much better show knowing who Larry is and what
Larry is and seeing him in this show.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Seeing him injury.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of fascinating. And I
wonder do you have any is there any I mean,
I know you're very busy and you're very inside this
world and all that, but is there any kind of
point where you think that performances for you or moving
in that direction is something that you would want to explore.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
No, I really, I really am not a performer, and
I do not not that I like I've been.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I've acted in things here and there, but it's not.
It doesn't light me up. It doesn't.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
I don't get the kind of fulfillment that other people
get from it. I just really don't. I don't feel
comfortable doing it. And and I think one thing you're
speaking to about when you said like I had to
get out and the management and the pressure is like,
I think one thing that has really saved me and
made sure running tolerable is that I'm never doing it alone.
I'm doing it with Polachia, and I never feel alone.
(35:38):
And I say this all the time, like I could
not show Run alone. I would feel I would go
crazy if I felt like I didn't have two people
that were in it with me and fully understanding the
experience of what we're what we're doing. So I also wonder, like,
was that a difficult part of it for you? Did
you feel? I mean, like you said, it's on the
(35:59):
door and your name on the stationary, like it was
really all about you, and that probably felt really like solitary.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I think I think for a personality like mine, which
is kind of like, you know, I'm kind of alcoholic
addict that I know. I feel like I'm the piece
of ship at the center of the universe, do you
know what I mean. It's like a conflicting narcissism and
self hatred and stuff that I think for a personality
like mine, it's highly toxic. I think for somebody like
(36:30):
I think Seth is like Tom Bombadill with that ship,
it just it just doesn't fucking the ring just has
no power over them. He's like, I can do it.
I was like, oh my god, don't you go like
I was like, ah, my precious.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
He's like, no, it's possible that, like demons, you have,
the job will draw those out.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
And I think success does that. I think I think
success nip for for demons. I think that for whatever
darkness you have. And Jan, my dear, who you know,
my new best friend. I have to tell you, I
don't believe for a second that someone that can write
like you right doesn't have fucking demons.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
So they definitely I definitely have demons, for sure. I
have demons.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Do you find them activated by I mean, do you
find them activated by busyness and success?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
And yeah, well, I kind of mine come from.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I had a very specific upbringing where my parents it
was a very difficult household. There were a lot of fighting,
a lot of like my mom was not mentally well.
It was a chaotic upbringing for sure. And I think
what's interesting is my demons. I deal with my demons
(37:50):
in the quest for success. Like in I was an
only child and so I was very much so alone
in that environment, and in my way of coping was
to really hone in on school and academics, and I
was like, I'm going to be the best student I
can because I saw it as a life raft. I
saw it as a thing that would get me out
(38:10):
of that situation. And I just as easily could have
seen drugs or alcohol as that. I just, for whatever reason,
school and work and that was my thing that was
getting me out. But in that same way, it's a
coping mechanism, and I've had to also work with the
balance of it made me addicted to work, it made
(38:30):
me addicted to not to success for the sake of success,
the way some people are like, oh, I just want
to be successful because I want to see my name
on deadline or whatever. It's more it's the demons thing.
It's a coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
I still feel I need it to get out.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
That makes sense to me. What you're saying makes perfect sense,
because the idea if you use the word chaotic, if
you are around chaos as a young person, then what
could be more the antithesis of that than becoming a
writer when you're in charge of the story. You know, yes, yes,
now you you create order by writing it down and
(39:10):
it now occurs like that. I think it's a fantastically
clever use of your darkness. Yeah, that's off to you.
It's much better than cocaine. I think, much better than
cocaine and alcohol. I feel like your.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Chic fun it's less fun.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Oh I don't know about that.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Well, it's it's that's more fun for a little bit,
and then that gets really unfun.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
This is yeah, but yeah, but it is. It's exactly that.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
It's you're if you grow up in a world that
doesn't really make sense. So many people become writers because
they are trying to create a world in which they
can make sense of it.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think that I think everything comes down to that,
doesn't it. It's like your first ten years will inform
the next seventy whatever you will do and I wonder
about that later on. What does that look like for you?
And is there any kind of look I don't do this,
so I don't expect anyone else to do it, but
(40:08):
I feel like I as someone like talking to you,
who you know you do right? You do, create order?
Is there an end goal? Is there a plan beyond
the job that you're working on, like as apecific?
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Not really no, I mean I think like.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
What's interesting is I think it's it's really more the
work that I have to do is sitting with stillness
and not doing things, and that I find to be
the most challenging because I think the way I've gone
about my career and I've been really lucky and I
feel very privileged to get to create things and have
people connect with them. But like, I have been sort
(40:49):
of on this treadmill for a long long time, and
I find out when I have to stop, anytime I
have to stop, that's that is like the real challenge
for me.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
So I don't know that there's a goal.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I feel so lucky to do what I do and
I want to keep doing it for as long as
I can, But I don't know that I don't want
for much more in my career because I've been so
blessed up unto this point.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Is there a form of writing, because as far as
I know, and I could be wrong, As far as
I know all of you, writing is contained in the
world of television. Is there is there a book?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Is there a book?
Speaker 3 (41:27):
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Some of my agent asked me this the other day.
I don't know that there's a book.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
There's not a novel. I don't envision myself writing a novel.
I would maybe write a book of essays or something
nonfiction about my life when I have lived more of
it and have more to tell.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
But no, not a novel.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
One of our hacks writers just wrote a novel over
like that comes out soon, and I'm so impressed because
I just my brain doesn't think that way.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I can't picture doing more like prose.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
I feel like I'm going to predict that you will
change course on that, oh using book. Look, I'm not
the boss of you, but I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
It'd be cool of you. I would love someone to
tell me what to do, so.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I feel like there are some Now. Look, I don't
know who writes what in the script of hacks. But
I hear the way that these characters look. I know
the rules. I know that, you know, dialogue is exposition.
I know that that. I know that every single thing
that they're saying is telling the story. Even knowing that rule,
I can't see it. That's some good, right, Oh, thank you,
(42:39):
thank you, And so whoever, whatever you guys are doing
in there, there is a love of pros. There is
a you know, embrace, embrace Mono, embrace the you know,
embrace the embrace the Luddite pros and see where it goes.
I think you'd enjoy it. I think it's if you
(43:00):
talk about imposing order on chaos, like when I was
going through I wrote I've written one novel so far,
one and a half. And when I wrote the novel,
I was going through a terrible well. I don't know
if anyone goes through a good divorce, but I was
going through a divorce. Funny, I was going through an
amazing it was such fun, such a riot where oh
(43:21):
we had such a laugh. But I was going through
a divorce when I wrote the novel. And if you
talk about getting a world where you could impose everything,
because one time I was getting a divorce, and i'd
had I'd written a movie which had stiffed it had
gone straight to video, which that's you know, that's usually
long ago was because now going straight to videos what
(43:43):
you need? Yeah yeah, I'd like streaming right away. Oh
that's right. Yeah yeah. But the idea of imposing order
on chaos. It became extremely therapeutic during all that to
go to a world that I was one hundred percent
in charge of. It's interesting. That's interesting. You don't have
to have a plan, because once you create the first
(44:05):
five or six pages, then it seems to kind of
take you where it wants to take you. Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Probably shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it, because I
might actually really like it.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
I think you might.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
I hate writing alone. I get really and again, this
is about the stillness.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
This is about the right.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Even though I am like I don't.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
At a party, I'm not again to go back down
and I'm going to be like the loudest person pulling focus.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
I also really don't.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Look.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
I hate writing alone. I like being alone. I like
doing things alone. I'm very much an only child in
that way. But writing alone is torture to me.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I think you'll get used to it like all of
you don't like all of us until you're thirty. That's
it's the same thing. Your tastes will change.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Okay, okay, good good.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I don't know. I understand it though. Like people say
when they go away to the country to write, I
can't write shit in the country. I can't. But if
I walk around the stay block in New York, I
come back with an idea, right right, right, it's been around.
I understand that. I understand the being around it. But look,
whatever you're doing, keep fucking doing it because it's awesome. Thanks,
and I'm very impressed. I feel like when you do
(45:15):
write a book, I am entitled to ten percent of
the sure for.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Sure you're getting yes, yeah, yeah, Maybe you can write
the introduction.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah yeah, I will, and then I'll write a little
thing on the back.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah this was you said, this was my idea.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
This is my idea. But you know I got admit
Jen that show up and type it all right. It's
been great to talk to you. Good luck with the
new season, Highs. It's such a great show. Congratulations to
everyone's been so lovely to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Well, please let me know what you think because it is.
It is a world you live, so I hope we
did it justice and got it right.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
It doesn't deserve justice, it just deserves to be reported
A thanks like SAgs Bake
This is me, Craig Ferguson. I'm inviting you to come
and see my brand new comedy hour. Well it's actually
it's about an hour and a half and I don't
have an opener because these guys cost money. But what
I'm saying is I'll be on stage for a while. Anyway,
Come and see me live on the Pants on Fire
Tour in your region. Tickets our own sale now, and
we'll be adding more as the tour continues throughout twenty
(00:23):
twenty five and beyond. For a full list of dates,
go to the Craig Ferguson show dot com. See you
on the road, my DearS. My name is Craig Ferguson.
The name of this podcast is Joy. I talk to
interesting people about what brings them happiness. Hello, my DearS,
(00:46):
Now look for my money. One of the best shows
on TV right now is the show called Hacks, which
is on HBO or Max or whatever they call it now.
But it's a great show. It's co created by my
guest today. It was a fascinating a very very clever
individual by the name of James Statsky. Enjoy. You see,
(01:16):
that's how they're doing TV. You just go five four
three two, and then you don't see anything else in
the one I have works on TV in ages though
you still work in DV Do they still do that?
Oh no, you do single cameras, so.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I do single camera. But so there's no there's no countdown.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
But I'm trying to remember because I started in Late Night,
and I think we had a countdown.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I think we had the five four three two.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah, you were on Jimmy's Chauffeur. That was your first gig,
wasn't it that.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
That was my first job.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
That was my first writing job, Late Night with Jimmy
Fallon back in twenty eleven.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So you were You were doing that at the same
time I was doing yeah late night.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, we're both. Did you child from Late Night? I
did watch your show, Yes, of course.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Yes, you are an excellent interviewer, which I'm sure you've
been told many times over the years.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Thank you. I feel like that it is an odd,
weird skill. Did you ever see the movie Demolition Man.
It's one of Sandra Bullok's early movies.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
No, I never did.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
There's a Sandra Bullock movie called Demolition Man, and I
call it Sandra Bulok movie. He's a Sylvester stallone movie
and he's Sylvester Stone and Wesley Snipes and he gets
cryogenically frozen and then has to catch a criminal in
the future. A lot of movies were like that back
in the day. During his cryogenics, he the computer implanted
(02:39):
in his head that he knew how to knit. It
was a joke in the film, and he was mystified
by that. And that's like my skills for interviewing. I
have no idea where I came about that. I certainly
didn't study for it or have I any academic training,
but I feel like I can do it.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I think you're right, Yeah, you definitely can't.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Did you find, like before you became a host that
like in conversations, like you're good at like being interested
in people and asking them questions like did it feel
natural visa viu moving through the world?
Speaker 1 (03:14):
That kind of was a skill. No, not at all.
In fact, I'm quite misanthropic. I am. I'm quite shy,
and but aggressively shy. So I don't just like go
oh oh, I'm like we want to go keep away
from me? That kind of shy, you know what I mean?
I suspect, you know, I write a lot, and I
(03:35):
know that that is what you do a lot of
and I think a lot of people who write are
quite like that. There are you like that. I'm like
that too.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I'm pretty like one on one I really like to
connect with the person.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
But if I'm like at a party, I'm definitely going
to be the person probably talking the least and a
little bit quiet, which sometimes comes off as like standoffish,
and people think you're like not the friendliest, but it's
it's not that it at all.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
It's not. It's more that I am, yeah, just kind
of more internal.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
I think we should speak out against parties. I think
the parties are being forced on as by people who
like parties. But yeah, I really like parties that much.
A small group of people is all right, go out
for there, maybe go and see something.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
But sure, sure I like a party, but there's it's
brutal when you are not in the mood for one
and you have to go.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
That is that's one of life's worst situations to be in.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I can't think of the last time I was in
the mood for a party, or even two parties. But
let me just say this though, I have to say this,
right now, which is congratulations on the success of Hacks
and thanks. I think just someone who's it's very rare,
like you know, like when people cops, when they watch
(04:58):
cop shows, go a, that's not what it's really like
being a call. Yeah, well I bore attacks now like
as exactly what it's like, as exactly thank.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
You, that is exactly just like that is such a
lovely compliment, and it means so much coming from you,
you know, like when we started making the show, we
were like, this is a horrible tightrope walk we're doing,
which is to portray a comedy portraying comedians and the
life of a comedian. And we always said like if
real stand ups and now late night hosts like yourself
(05:30):
can watch it and feel like it is capturing something real,
will have you know, kind of cleared that this really
high bar we said for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
So it really means a lot to hear that from you.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well so much so. The truth of it is this
that the relationship between the two main protagonists and Hikes,
it's so similar to a relationship that I have with
a guy who is now writes for me all the time.
Oh ah, who was on my show. I know if
you remember, he stopped off as an intern and he
(06:01):
became the front end of the pantomime Horse used to
dance around. Well, now he writes all the time. He
produces for Netflix and stuff like that, and he writes
for me. Joe Bolter is Joe Bolter?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah right? And Joe and I so much. So. When
I saw the first season of Hacks, I called Joe
and I said, are you in the writer's room on
that show?
Speaker 3 (06:24):
You?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Are you being doing stuff on that show? And he
said no, he said, but I've seen it and it's spooky.
There are episodes there was I think it was the
first season, could have been the second. You'll know, I'm
sure when Debra says, we have to go to Vegas,
and they go to Vegas and then they you know,
they go in a plane somewhere and they come back
and mix it up with my own life. I said
(06:45):
to Joe once, I'm doing a show in Vegas, and
he said, I can't come. I have to see my parents.
I said, we'll be back by ten o'clock. And when
I took him to Van Night's Airport and we got
on this plane and we go out to the Las
Vegas and we did the show, we came back. It
was all done in two hours, three hours maybe, and
if there was something like that in Hacks And he
was like, it's so the same, right down to our
(07:08):
argument about comedy. When I would be very cranky about,
you know, the new rules of comedy, and he would say,
there are no new rules of comedy. You just have
to be funny, which I think is possibly true. There
was a time there when I was very worried about
(07:30):
the dogma of the next generation of comedy, but I'm
not anymore. I think it's really funny.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
You were worried because you felt like we were treading
into a place where we weren't, Like comedy wasn't being
valued or.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
What was it that was worrying you.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
I think more it was about the idea. And you've
had Debra say these words like it's great to see
a character where you go, yes, yes, that's right, you know,
and then you realize, wait, this is the cranky old lady,
myocracy old lady. Right, I kind of have a little
bit yeah, but it's the idea that I think for
(08:08):
a while, I don't believe this anymore, but I did
for a while there think that they're saying, or the
young people are saying, that certain areas of comedy are
off limits and you can't make jokes about that, which
I don't believe. I believe that you must be able
to make jokes about whatever you can make funny. It's
not like there are taboo subjects. I think that that.
I mean, there's bad jokes, but I think tabli yeah,
(08:31):
you know, yeah, and that. But also the retrogression look
at material that you had done before attitudes changed, and
picking up on that was a very weird thing because like, well,
I did that joke ten years ago, I wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Do it now, you know, right, right, And that's very
much so, you know, we did that last season when
Deborah goes back to her alma mater college and is
taken to task by the students there for old material,
and we very much wanted to have this exact conversation
that you're saying and kind of talk about, Yes, times change,
and you know, there's things that we were joking about
(09:08):
at the time and now we have moved on and
understand as a society that that was not right. And
you know, it's a conversation between feeling what Debora feels
is she feels very like persecuted in that moment, and
she's like, but I've always tried to be on the
right side of history. I just had these jokes that
at the time went right, and Ava was sort of
saying yes. And it's also the right of people who
(09:29):
hear those jokes down to say like this is this
is painful and this was not great, and there's an understanding.
Like you know, one thing we're always trying to do
with the show is have each character be both right
and wrong, because it's amazing. It's way more interesting to
see a conversation between two people where they're both right
and wrong, versus like if Deborah was just wholly in
(09:50):
the wrong, it's less of an interesting conversation. So that one,
in particular, was you know, really important for us to
do because that is such a conversation in comedy these days.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Like you're saying, it's funny.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
The interesting thing about it as well, And what what
I very much like about the portrayal of Debra is
that it's unapologetic. It's it's very kind of she's still funny,
you know, which I love that the idea of it,
did you have this because I mean, it seems funny
to say this to you, but you you're kind of
(10:22):
you get to the point of veteran status. Now I've
been doing it for a while. I know it's weird
how fast it happens. As well, it is like, oh
my god, I know it's great.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Well talking about like starting on you know, Fallen was
my first job and I was twenty for twenty five
years old when I got that job, and like now
I've been doing it now, I'm thirty nine, Like I've
been doing it for a decade and a half, and
it feels crazy, like you're saying, because I still feel
like that kid who started in dirty rock, like writing
monologue jokes for Jimmy.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So yeah, it is.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
It's it's wild to kind of have had the luck
that I've had in this career and gotten to move
from late night to now making Hacks and all the
shows I've been lucky enough to work on in between.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, because you worked in the Good Place as well,
which was another kind of groundbreaker, is another real wonderful show.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Yeah, the Good Place.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
You know, I value my time on that show so
much and make sure who created that, you know, did
something so brilliant with that show, which was it was
a network sitcom, but it was so original in its
idea and its conception and what we were trying to
do with the stories we were trying to do.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
And so yeah, I feel really lucky to have to
have worked on that.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Hello, this is Greig Ferguson and I want to let
you know I have a brand new stand up comedy
special out now on YouTube. It's called I'm So Happy,
and I would be so happy if you checked it out.
To watch the special, just go to my YouTube channel
at the Craig Ferguson Show and is this right there?
Just click it and play it and it's free. I
(12:04):
can't look. I'm not going to come around you, husband
and show you how to do it. If you can't
do it, then you can have it. But if you
can figure it out, it's yours, the three of you
that came up with hacks. Therese you and remind me
Paul W.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Dwan's and Lucianello.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah right, And did you all come up together? Is
that something that? Do you all know each other earlier?
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
It was came organically from that.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, we basically all met doing like sketch and improv
and stand up in New York City. So back in
like Lucci and I my senior year at NYU, I
was in this sketch group that was kind of an
offshoot of the Upright Citizens Brigade theater, and Lucci and
I were the only girls in the sketch group, and
we kind of instantly gravitated towards each other in our
(12:53):
senses of humor. And I really loved her and thought
she was so so talented. And then she introduced me
to Paul, and they had been doing sketches as a
two man group and making things and Paul, you know
again same just instantly was like, Oh, these are the
funniest people, and just had a real instant kinship and
knew that I wanted to work with them.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Is it something that still exists? Do you make each
other laugh in the writer's room still? We do? Yeah? Yeah,
we do.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
You know, we kind of show Oh thanks, yeah, we really.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
You know, when we started the show, we made a
promise to ourselves that we wouldn't ever let it interfere
with our friendship, but we would always try to like
protect that first and always kind of honor the fact
that this started because we just genuinely loved making each
other laugh and try to hold on to that as
we move through the process. And I think that like
(13:46):
that is only proven more and more true as we've
gone on, because as the show has been successful, and
we've been lucky to have this show be successful, like,
the bigger it gets, you actually kind of can't take
it all in and think about that if you start
thinking about doing it for a review or doing it
for an award, it just kind of can. It can
be overwhelming and eat away at you. And so I
(14:07):
think even the bigger the show has gotten, the more
wheeling into trying to just rely on like does Paul
think this good? Does Lucia think this is good? And
then expanding it out through there like do our writers
think this is good? And the other people who work
in the show thing is good? And trying to keep
it concentrated like that.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah, It's an interesting thing because the idea of success
is such an odd kind of ingredient creatively, I think
it does very odd things to creative people. It does
odd things to anyone. Yeah, but if you add success
and fame and then there is this thing. I remember
(14:46):
the example I will give you is this is that
when I started in late night, people immediately began ask
me because I was working for David Letterman behind a
worldwide pants and Dave was doing the eleven thirty show
and I was doing twelve thirty. And immediately people started saying,
are you going to take over from Dave? Like before
(15:07):
I even started, right, And I said, no, I have
no interest in that, that's not my thing, and they they,
and also, I'm just starting this job. And it almost
seems like in the world of show business. I don't
gonna say, Hollywood, but it's so much kind of not
that anymore. But in the world of show business, it
(15:27):
seems to me people used to say, what have you
done lately? Now it seems to be it's what are
you doing next? Well, you haven't done, Yeah, it is
more important.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah, I used to It's so interesting you bring this
up because I used to think this all the time,
because when I was lucky enough to be a staff
writer on like Parks and Recreation or The Good Place
or broad City, people would always say, but when are
you going to do your own show? But you want
to run your own show, right, And of course I
did eventually go on to do that with Hucks. But
it was such an interesting thing that people kind of
(16:00):
put you on this ladder, even if you yourself are
not thinking that way. And it's very much so like,
but what's the next thing, what's the next thing? Which
is really counterintuitive to your process as an artist because
you really are just trying to stay present and focus
on making the thing you're doing in that moment good.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Well it's and also it's an odd thing because I
get it's ten years since I left Late Night, right,
and people say to me, you know, they still say
less so now because they're all dead to the people
who remember that I was on TV. But the well
people will say why did you leave? And I said, look,
it's mental health. It's like this if I don't know
how other people deal with it. But if I walk
(16:41):
into a building every day, every five days a week,
and there are pictures of me everywhere, but everywhere I
go with those giant pictures of me, and then there's
all the stationary all the paper has my name on it,
and my name is everywhere, and there's me everywhere, and
there's a hundred fifty people in the building and all
(17:02):
they are doing is making sure I am in a
good mood. Nobody wants to bring me any bad news,
know what. They want me to be good for the show. Yeah,
that makes you fucking crazy, Dan.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
I know that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
It's really wild because you're one of like ten people
right that I could talk to about this because I
lived on the other side of that, like when I
started fell in and this was not you know, Jimmy
didn't say to say this.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
This was coming from someone who worked for him.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
He said, fifty percent of this job is writing good
jokes and fifty percent is being friends with Jimmy. That
was like, that was the attitude that people around you had.
And I'm sure, as you're saying, you didn't even put
that out there. You didn't come in and say I
need everything to revolve around me and everybody needs to
be doing all these things to make me happy.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
But it happens.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It's just what it does when there is a central
figure at the head of a show that well, I
don't know, it's kind of this like almost like it's
like a king in the kingdom, like all the people
in the court doing all these machinations to like make
him happy. But then also kind of like it turns
into people being cut throat with each other because everybody's
(18:17):
trying to protect this one person and their.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Access to that person. And it occurs to you, this
is what I'm interested because in the next season, you're
putting Debra in that position. You're putting Debora into being
a late night host, which I love, and I want
to get to that because it's very important thing. I
want to talk to you about that. But the idea
of this thing occurs. I've once heard about David Letterman
(18:40):
before I was ever on the show, before I was
ever on Dave's show, somebody had said, oh, no, you're
not allowed to look Dave directly in the eye. You
must correctly, and I if you walk down recorder, you
have to look away. And I was like, really, And then,
you know, I've since met David's quite a lot. And
if I didn't look up in the eye, think I
was weird. You know, Yeah, I think he thinks I'm
(19:04):
weird anyway. But the idea of that was so odd
to me, and I heard that. Then I heard about
Jennifer Lopez. For some reason, she was against Donna. It
wasn't even my show. She was in the building and
someone said, don't look at her directly, and it was
always this same phrase, don't look at that directly in
the eye. Oh my god, I've never heard that. And
then I heard that about five different people. And then
(19:25):
I heard that about myself. Oh no way, yeah, somebody said,
oh I heard that, some one of an old friend
of a writer who was you know who I brought
into the show, who's an old friend of mine from
the old Country, and he was like, what's this. Don't
look you directly in the eye. Shit. It was like,
oh my god, don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Right, And that must be really crazy to be a
public crazy.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, it makes you crazy. I could. When Seth Meyers started,
he called me up and he said, I'm very excited
and he was just phoning all the other hosts and
I said, it'll make you crazy sense he said, I
don't think it will. I don't think it will. I
saw him at Rangers game maybe about a few or
four months ago, and I don't think it has made
him crazy. I think he's okay.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I think that if he I think is a rare guy. That, yeah,
he seems because I know something he seems right. Yeah, yeah,
totally but like.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
That is something with this season that we wanted to
pay homage to the fact that late night is such
a grind, and I don't think people totally realize, Like
for the host of a late night show, it's kind
of like, I think it's the hardest job you can
have while also being super famous, because it is such
a grind.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's five days a week.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
It is like relentless and like you're saying everything it
almost sounds like you'd be nice in some ways, like oh,
everything revolves around you and everyone's trying to make you happy,
but like you're saying that in itself can become its
own kind of prison and wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
It's great for about a month, yes, yes, yeah, and
then you're like, wait a minut it. You had a
friend who was a cop in Bakersfield and he gave
it up and he said, I hate being a cop
because everybody lies to you all the time. I said,
that's exactly what it's like being a late night hosts
you and even if they're not, you think they are.
(21:17):
You know, it's very weird.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Do you ever miss it?
Speaker 3 (21:21):
No?
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I miss sometimes the fun I had on stage because
the people that I worked with on stage Josh Robert Thompson,
who did the Skeleton Robot and my show. I had
a very small crew of performers and we were kind
of a rep. It wasn't even a rep. It was
just like it was like half a dozen different people
and they would cycle through. And I missed that kind
(21:45):
of almost like upright Citizens Brigade kind of Groundland's vibe.
I missed the team, but I don't miss I don't
miss fucking television executives. And I think that the new
democratic kind of form of making content. I like the
(22:10):
idea of being able to speak directly to the audience
because that's what stand up is and I kind of
like that. And I'm kind of, I mean, an admiration
of you and others in your position who can exist
in the world of television because you are an artist
and you create art. But what a lot of people
(22:30):
don't see is the meetings that you're having with people
who are extremely difficult for me to deal with. I mean,
it's not their fault, it's just we see the world
different and I have a very hard time with it.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Well, I think you'll like this season quite a bit, then,
because this season is really focusing on that intersection of
art and commerce and how difficult it can be, and
also just you know, even since you've left Late Night,
how even I think more difficult called it's gotten with
the tremendous pressure on each individual show and property to
(23:05):
like expand beyond. You know, it's not just enough to
just be one singular show and get decent ratings, Like
you're saying, content and expanding, you know, all of that,
Like all of that comes into play now in a
way that it feels like there's there's a heavier hand
on like perhaps the commerce side.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Of it that makes it even more difficult. And not
our executives.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
We have been really lucky and that they're so wonderful
at HBO, and they foster creativity and they're so supportive.
But I think Late Night in particulars and this's really,
as has been discussed many times, a very interesting moment.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
It is an odd thing. And I think while I
was looking at why I'm excited to see the new
season because Debra, I thought, correct me if I'm wrong.
I mean, you created the character. But I always thought
one of the archetypes for Therera would be Joan Revers
that I thought that I don't know. If you know
the story about Joan Rivers in Late Night and how
poorly she was treated when she got her own show,
(24:06):
I'm sure you do. Yeah, And I always thought that's
really fucking unfair what happened.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Now I know it's so heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (24:14):
I know, yeah, yes, we you know, there's many people
that Debra's and and malcolmission of and certainly Droan is
one of them that we talked about a lot and
researched a lot. And yeah, she got such a raw
deal with with the Tonight Show and being banned from
it and then her show.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
That's really it's.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Heartbreaking because she had the audacity to do her own show, Yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
Which is such a you have to think like anybody
would understand someone doing that.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I don't know. I mean it seems like maybe now
I feel like in show business. One of the things
I always loved about show business, and I really believe this,
there's room for everybody, Like everybody doesn't really matter, you
know it. I know it feels like I think, particularly
when you're young, when everybody's competitive and everyone's trying make
their bones, that you feel like if they're getting success,
(25:03):
then somehow I'm going to there's a lovely scene of
that actually in the first scene of Hacks, when they
meet in the line for that show in Vegas and
they're talking about, you know, other people who are doing
really well. Oh yeah, I love that. So true.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
There's this like kind of thing that when you're young,
you feel like someone's success is your failure. And I remember,
I remember when I started writing and was young and
doing it. I really had to like train myself out
of that way of thinking because it's so kind of negative.
I'm glad that I'm at a point in my career
(25:38):
where I don't.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
Well, I think. I think a bit of success will
help you get rid of it as well, I think.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
But I hope I got I think I got rid
of it also before before, like yesterday, I think.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
But but yeah, it is true. It's really hard, especially
that career isn't where you want.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
It to be. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
That gore Vidal's which is it's not enough that I succeed,
it's that my friends have to fail. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Yeah, and a lot of I mean, you come from
the stand up world, which I feel like is even
maybe a little more cut throat that way than an
improvert sketch where I came from. That's a lot of
still stand ups takes. I think, Oh yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I although I have to say I had a similar
conversation with Bill Hayder about this because I asked them
about when he was on Saturday Night Live, and he
took a similar route to you in a way that
you know, he came out and started, you know, and
making Barry and running the show. And I said, were
you very competitive when you were all working together as
(26:38):
Saturday Live? And he said, no, we actually wearn't. We
were quite It was quite collegiate, he said. But I
heard about it from the old the previous cast, and
he said, and he thinks it might be a generational thing,
which might be a bit like that as well. I
think for all the kind of noise that people my
(27:00):
age make about people your age, I think that actually
younger people are kind of a bit better with each other.
I think so.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
I think something I noticed in younger comedians, even the
ones that are super driven, there is less I think
people have evolved a bit out of the mentality that
someone else needs to fail for you to succeed. Like, Yeah,
I do think that hopefully there's a better kind of
collective mindset around that, I.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Guess it comes down to the individual. So when Debra
go was into late night in this season, so I'm actually,
you know, I don't know if you've gotted this. I'm
actually a huge fan of this show. I mean really,
it's there are shows that I like, Yeah, your show,
the first three seasons of The Righteous Gemstones, and then
(27:54):
and then I don't know, I'm going back.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
To maybe okay, you're going to go into a long list,
but that it ended there and then you're back to
Soprano's a show.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
From and the Wire.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
I mean, you're mash Yeah, you know what was the
the the Adams Family, you know, the original cash you know.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah, well that means that means a lot coming from you,
and I'm I am so curious. And we have been
lucky enough to hear from other late night hosts that
they liked the show. I mean, watching this season, I
hope it doesn't give you PTSD because it is firmly
in the world in which you lived, and you're one
of the only people on earth.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
That has quite this experience.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
I know, it's funny. I had a conversation with Jimmy
Kimmel a few years ago when he said, you know,
we this was actually before I left. It was just
as I was. He said, you know, we should all
kind of get together me, you, j Alas and stuff
and have a dinner or something, because there are so
(29:08):
few people that have done this, And I was like, nah,
I want to do that.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Why why do you say now?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
I don't know, but I know that I know that
Dave would say the same thing. But what's interesting is
I feel much more sanguine and affectionate towards late night
now that I don't do it got it, And I
know that Dave is in a very similar place with it.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
You know.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
I feel like like once I went diving with sharks
in the Bahamas, and I'm really glad I did it.
I'm never fucking doing it again. And that's kind of
That's kind of how I feel about it. It has
a I'm really glad that I'm proud of what we did,
but I I'm glad you're.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Happy you got out of the world when you did.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
I am. I am happy I get out of the water.
I am happy to get out of it. And so
what happens with hacked, because you're at the point now
if you're starting season four. A lot of what you're
doing now, if my timeline is correct, and what it's
like to be in charge of an operation in show business,
A lot of what you're doing now will involve being HR.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Well it's not HR, but it certainly is.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
And I have discussed this before. The interesting thing about
show running is you start as a writer. You come
up as a writer, you're like, I like writing TV.
It's something I feel like I'm good at and I
want to pursue. And then once you get your own show,
all of a sudden you're in charge of a two
hundred and fifty person corporation and there's a skill set
(30:52):
of show running that is completely different from the skill
set of writing comedy. And that has been a real
learning experience over the last you know, four or five
years now, Propology and myself, because you're right that there's
just a lot of things that you have to deal
with that you never envision having to deal with when
(31:12):
you're just unstabed.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
People's problems and their feelings about that, I know, it's like,
oh my god, yeah, and like, you know, when if
someone isn't doing like The thing I find very challenging
is knowing, you know, if someone isn't doing a great
job or it's not a great fit, like the letting
go of someone, which you know, we have luckily knock
(31:34):
on Wood haven't had to do a lot, but that
that's really difficult to me because it's very hard to
divorce the fact that this is a human being and
this is their life and their livelihood.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
And I find that to be I've really had to
do work around that because it's real. It's difficult.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Also, you will be alienated from the other side because
you become a resource to other people and you become
if you're the boss you start, you go from that
possession of being scrappy writer for Jimmy Fallen to you know,
boss lady in charge.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
Did you have any I mean, I'm friendly with Marta Kaufman,
who's you know, is your rat friends and yeah, you know,
such great shows and she seems to me to be
someone who's kept her humanity through the process. Did you
do you have a mentor for that? Did you talk
to anyone? Was there anyone that you could Yeah?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I think that, you know, I was really lucky and
that I came up on Mike Sure shows so Parks
and rec and The Good Place were created by Mike Sure,
and Mike is Mike is a really excellent boss in
that he's He's just a genuinely good, deeply good person.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
And so that I think helped me. I had a
good role model for running a room in terms of that.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
And then I think though it is that like it's
a it's a good way to put it, like keeping
your humanity in staf in check with your humanity, because
I think you can get so some people get so
myopic and focused on the end goal of the show
or the you know, and you do you have to
do that. You have to be protecting the show and
protecting your work, but you also do need to stay
(33:14):
in touch with your humanity and that these are human
beings that you're working with. So it is something that's
a difficult part of it because it's exactly in play
in you is the intersection of art and commerce. You're
trying to stay creative and vulnerable to create something real
and funny and truthful, but you're also having to be
management and make some decisions along the way that maybe
(33:38):
emotion doesn't serve you as well. And so it's a
really interesting thing to balance, and I hope over the
years I've only gotten better at it because it's a
difficult thing.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
It is a difficult thing, and it isn't ultimately I think.
I think for me, I had to make a choice,
but I gotta go ye on this, And I think
that what I think is fascinating about it is that
the people I know who have gone through your the
(34:10):
probably like going through a showrunner's type life. You know,
if you look at well, I suppose a great archetype
for it would be Larry David. Yes, yeah, you know,
going to that if I look at I mean, I
always liked Seinfeld. Who didn't like Seinfeld? But having watched
Curb Your Enthusiasm, Seinfeld is a much better show. It's
(34:33):
a much better show knowing who Larry is and what
Larry is and seeing him in this show.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Seeing him injury.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's kind of fascinating. And I
wonder do you have any is there any I mean,
I know you're very busy and you're very inside this
world and all that, but is there any kind of
point where you think that performances for you or moving
in that direction is something that you would want to explore.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
No, I really, I really am not a performer, and
I do not not that I like I've been.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I've acted in things here and there, but it's not.
It doesn't light me up. It doesn't.
Speaker 3 (35:16):
I don't get the kind of fulfillment that other people
get from it. I just really don't. I don't feel
comfortable doing it. And and I think one thing you're
speaking to about when you said like I had to
get out and the management and the pressure is like,
I think one thing that has really saved me and
made sure running tolerable is that I'm never doing it alone.
I'm doing it with Polachia, and I never feel alone.
(35:38):
And I say this all the time, like I could
not show Run alone. I would feel I would go
crazy if I felt like I didn't have two people
that were in it with me and fully understanding the
experience of what we're what we're doing. So I also wonder, like,
was that a difficult part of it for you? Did
you feel? I mean, like you said, it's on the
(35:59):
door and your name on the stationary, like it was
really all about you, and that probably felt really like solitary.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
I think I think for a personality like mine, which
is kind of like, you know, I'm kind of alcoholic
addict that I know. I feel like I'm the piece
of ship at the center of the universe, do you
know what I mean. It's like a conflicting narcissism and
self hatred and stuff that I think for a personality
like mine, it's highly toxic. I think for somebody like
(36:30):
I think Seth is like Tom Bombadill with that ship,
it just it just doesn't fucking the ring just has
no power over them. He's like, I can do it.
I was like, oh my god, don't you go like
I was like, ah, my precious.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
He's like, no, it's possible that, like demons, you have,
the job will draw those out.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
And I think success does that. I think I think
success nip for for demons. I think that for whatever
darkness you have. And Jan, my dear, who you know,
my new best friend. I have to tell you, I
don't believe for a second that someone that can write
like you right doesn't have fucking demons.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
So they definitely I definitely have demons, for sure. I
have demons.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Do you find them activated by I mean, do you
find them activated by busyness and success?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
And yeah, well, I kind of mine come from.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I had a very specific upbringing where my parents it
was a very difficult household. There were a lot of fighting,
a lot of like my mom was not mentally well.
It was a chaotic upbringing for sure. And I think
what's interesting is my demons. I deal with my demons
(37:50):
in the quest for success. Like in I was an
only child and so I was very much so alone
in that environment, and in my way of coping was
to really hone in on school and academics, and I
was like, I'm going to be the best student I
can because I saw it as a life raft. I
saw it as a thing that would get me out
(38:10):
of that situation. And I just as easily could have
seen drugs or alcohol as that. I just, for whatever reason,
school and work and that was my thing that was
getting me out. But in that same way, it's a
coping mechanism, and I've had to also work with the
balance of it made me addicted to work, it made
(38:30):
me addicted to not to success for the sake of success,
the way some people are like, oh, I just want
to be successful because I want to see my name
on deadline or whatever. It's more it's the demons thing.
It's a coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
I still feel I need it to get out.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
That makes sense to me. What you're saying makes perfect sense,
because the idea if you use the word chaotic, if
you are around chaos as a young person, then what
could be more the antithesis of that than becoming a
writer when you're in charge of the story. You know, yes, yes,
now you you create order by writing it down and
(39:10):
it now occurs like that. I think it's a fantastically
clever use of your darkness. Yeah, that's off to you.
It's much better than cocaine. I think, much better than
cocaine and alcohol. I feel like your.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Chic fun it's less fun.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Oh I don't know about that.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
Well, it's it's that's more fun for a little bit,
and then that gets really unfun.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
This is yeah, but yeah, but it is. It's exactly that.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
It's you're if you grow up in a world that
doesn't really make sense. So many people become writers because
they are trying to create a world in which they
can make sense of it.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I think that I think everything comes down to that,
doesn't it. It's like your first ten years will inform
the next seventy whatever you will do and I wonder
about that later on. What does that look like for you?
And is there any kind of look I don't do this,
so I don't expect anyone else to do it, but
(40:08):
I feel like I as someone like talking to you,
who you know you do right? You do, create order?
Is there an end goal? Is there a plan beyond
the job that you're working on, like as apecific?
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Not really no, I mean I think like.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
What's interesting is I think it's it's really more the
work that I have to do is sitting with stillness
and not doing things, and that I find to be
the most challenging because I think the way I've gone
about my career and I've been really lucky and I
feel very privileged to get to create things and have
people connect with them. But like, I have been sort
(40:49):
of on this treadmill for a long long time, and
I find out when I have to stop, anytime I
have to stop, that's that is like the real challenge
for me.
Speaker 2 (40:59):
So I don't know that there's a goal.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
I feel so lucky to do what I do and
I want to keep doing it for as long as
I can, But I don't know that I don't want
for much more in my career because I've been so
blessed up unto this point.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Is there a form of writing, because as far as
I know, and I could be wrong, As far as
I know all of you, writing is contained in the
world of television. Is there is there a book?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Is there a book?
Speaker 3 (41:27):
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Some of my agent asked me this the other day.
I don't know that there's a book.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
There's not a novel. I don't envision myself writing a novel.
I would maybe write a book of essays or something
nonfiction about my life when I have lived more of
it and have more to tell.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
But no, not a novel.
Speaker 3 (41:48):
One of our hacks writers just wrote a novel over
like that comes out soon, and I'm so impressed because
I just my brain doesn't think that way.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
I can't picture doing more like prose.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
I feel like I'm going to predict that you will
change course on that, oh using book. Look, I'm not
the boss of you, but I'm just saying.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
It'd be cool of you. I would love someone to
tell me what to do, so.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I feel like there are some Now. Look, I don't
know who writes what in the script of hacks. But
I hear the way that these characters look. I know
the rules. I know that, you know, dialogue is exposition.
I know that that. I know that every single thing
that they're saying is telling the story. Even knowing that rule,
I can't see it. That's some good, right, Oh, thank you,
(42:39):
thank you, And so whoever, whatever you guys are doing
in there, there is a love of pros. There is
a you know, embrace, embrace Mono, embrace the you know,
embrace the embrace the Luddite pros and see where it goes.
I think you'd enjoy it. I think it's if you
(43:00):
talk about imposing order on chaos, like when I was
going through I wrote I've written one novel so far,
one and a half. And when I wrote the novel,
I was going through a terrible well. I don't know
if anyone goes through a good divorce, but I was
going through a divorce. Funny, I was going through an
amazing it was such fun, such a riot where oh
(43:21):
we had such a laugh. But I was going through
a divorce when I wrote the novel. And if you
talk about getting a world where you could impose everything,
because one time I was getting a divorce, and i'd
had I'd written a movie which had stiffed it had
gone straight to video, which that's you know, that's usually
long ago was because now going straight to videos what
(43:43):
you need? Yeah yeah, I'd like streaming right away. Oh
that's right. Yeah yeah. But the idea of imposing order
on chaos. It became extremely therapeutic during all that to
go to a world that I was one hundred percent
in charge of. It's interesting. That's interesting. You don't have
to have a plan, because once you create the first
(44:05):
five or six pages, then it seems to kind of
take you where it wants to take you. Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
Probably shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it, because I
might actually really like it.
Speaker 1 (44:18):
I think you might.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
I hate writing alone. I get really and again, this
is about the stillness.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
This is about the right.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Even though I am like I don't.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
At a party, I'm not again to go back down
and I'm going to be like the loudest person pulling focus.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
I also really don't.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Look.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
I hate writing alone. I like being alone. I like
doing things alone. I'm very much an only child in
that way. But writing alone is torture to me.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
I think you'll get used to it like all of
you don't like all of us until you're thirty. That's
it's the same thing. Your tastes will change.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Okay, okay, good good.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
I don't know. I understand it though. Like people say
when they go away to the country to write, I
can't write shit in the country. I can't. But if
I walk around the stay block in New York, I
come back with an idea, right right, right, it's been around.
I understand that. I understand the being around it. But look,
whatever you're doing, keep fucking doing it because it's awesome. Thanks,
and I'm very impressed. I feel like when you do
(45:15):
write a book, I am entitled to ten percent of
the sure for.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Sure you're getting yes, yeah, yeah, Maybe you can write
the introduction.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah yeah, I will, and then I'll write a little
thing on the back.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Yeah this was you said, this was my idea.
Speaker 1 (45:31):
This is my idea. But you know I got admit
Jen that show up and type it all right. It's
been great to talk to you. Good luck with the
new season, Highs. It's such a great show. Congratulations to
everyone's been so lovely to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
Well, please let me know what you think because it is.
It is a world you live, so I hope we
did it justice and got it right.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
It doesn't deserve justice, it just deserves to be reported
A thanks like SAgs Bake
Host
Craig Ferguson
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