Shirley Manson

This week Craig sits down with one of his long time friends Shirley Manson, the lead singer of the American alternative rock band Garbage. They talk about touring experiences, culture, music and much more. This is a Glasgow vs Edinburgh episode. enJOY!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
This is Craig Ferguson letting you know that my Fancy
Rascal Tour continues throughout the fall of twenty twenty three.
For a full list of dates and tickets, please go
to my website, the Craig Ferguson Show dot com slash tour.
My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast
is Joy. I talk to interest in people about what

(00:23):
brings them happiness.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Here's one of my old friends. Her name is Shirley Mans.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
She's the lead singer with a band called Garbage. I
first met her she was the lead singer of Oh
Well You'll find out enjoy.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
I'll just say nice things about you. But if I
say nice things about you now, no, because I don't
want to say nice things about you, know, because you're Scottish,
so you'll get angry at me.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
You saying nice things about I've been living here for
a long time now, though, I like do.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
They try and take your Scottishness away from you when
you go to be ridiculous?

Speaker 3 (01:04):
So they do it to me? What do you mean?

Speaker 1 (01:06):
Sometimes I think it's because you're from Edinburgh. Edinburgh people, No.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
That's not true. That's not it.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
No, no, that is not true. You are super famous,
you are.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
This is great.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
Well, good night everybody, good night, We're done here.

Speaker 2 (01:24):
I think in the Edinburgh side of things, I think
people are nicer about it.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
I think in Glasgow they.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Try and say are your accents you're not even Scottish anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
But I think in Edinburgh there like, no, it's okay,
you can, you can. You're allowed to be successful elsewhere
and then come back to Edinburgh. Lots of people do it,
but in Glasgow to get fucking mad at you.

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, that's the thing. That's probably fair. They're a little
bit easier on you.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
And yeah they are.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
They've got me ship over the years.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Well, you can't get tenured. You're now tenured. You're now
a rock star that's tenured as rock star.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
But you can't get to that point without getting going
through the I like to call it the Zar Doors period.
Like even Sean Connery had to go through the Mangini
before he became finally tenured. True, you know what I
wanted to talk to you about today. I was just
thinking when I was coming here to day, I want
to talk to silly about there's a couple of things.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
One is the Columbia Hotel God, which was we'll get
to And the other thing is you being one hundred
percent Viking.

Speaker 3 (02:20):
Yeah, that's the weirdest thing.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
I Like, you did a twenty three and meion, you're
one hundred percent one thing Viking.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
Which is really unusual in this d Dane.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
I suppose Viking is a verb, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
It's like, I don't know what that meant. I don't
think I'm Dane per se right, I'm not sure one
hundred percent what they meant by that.

Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, you do have kind of a warrior spirit, you
know what I mean. It's like, even like as a performer,
even when I.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Saw you when you were like a kid, when I
was a kid and you were a kid, I was
less of.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
A kid than you were, but not that much, not
by much.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
But I remember, like even seeing you back then when
you were with the cool kids, you still had that
kind of.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Like like you were tough girl. I guess you had
to be back I think, well.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
I am tough, Yeah you are, for sure, and I
am redheaded, and I am aware that I am in
tune with my Viking for sure.

Speaker 2 (03:14):
Did you think because rock music is very fucking His
horror was like a rugby thing, almost the way guys are. Actually,
I was reading that the thing recently that Courtney Love
wrote about the.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Rock and Rock Hall of Fame. Yeah, it'st fucking ballocks,
that is. Do you know that I went to the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and I was looking around.
I was in Cleveland, and you know, there's limited things
to do. I was walking around the Rock and Hall
of Fame and I saw an exhibit and it was
like Buddy Holly exhibit. And I was like, oh, yeah,
Buddy Holly is a seminal artist.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
And I was looking at it and they had his
glasses and I was looking at his glasses and I thought, wait,
in a fucking minute, wasn't he wearing his glasses in
the plane? These aren't a fucking because they were intact.
If they were his glasses, they surely would have been broken.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
I'm going to just throw this out there, and this
is more than I don't know.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
I'm not sure. I think they went to a fucking
eye doctors. They went to like a specsaver. Give us
a pair of the Buddy Holly, we'll put it in
the museum.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
When we when I was at school, we did a
museum of space and we did man's first foodprint on
the minut We had bought a shoe box full of
sand and somebody stood on it with their wellies and
then that was it.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
It was amazing Man's first step.

Speaker 3 (04:31):
On the moon. It wasn't really that's quite. No, I'm sorry,
I think that's quite.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
Are you in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
I am Are you really one of the few women
that are in it? Or is the bad?

Speaker 3 (04:39):
Lots of women's articles and sort of testament to women,
to be fair, and I actually loved my visit to
the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I couldn't get
over it. I thought like the public enemy, except it
was amazing, you know.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
I just was angry at the Buddy Holy Glass.

Speaker 3 (04:54):
Yeah, no fair, I mean I get it. I mean
I'm just into music, so I was to related, you know.
But I think there is a real issue with the
whole patriarchal view of history. I mean that we were
face we face a problem.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, I sure, I mean there's definitely work being done
on that, a little bit spread out enough. But I
love Chrissy Heines take on.

Speaker 3 (05:16):
Yeah, I mean, who doesn't love stop, she said, anyone
who thinks the rock roll of Ames getting to do
with rock and roll was funck all about rock and roll?

Speaker 1 (05:26):
Oh god, she's still fucking fantastic.

Speaker 3 (05:28):
Tremendous were they were these because.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
We were talking about Susie Sue as well. Who these
are artists who were like a wee bit ahead of
you chronologically, but they're the women that you kind of
were looking up to when you were in Goodbye Ms.
McKenzie and stuff.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Yeah. I mean, I'm really lucky because I sort of
fell in love with the sort of second generation of
women artists, right, and they were all, for the most part,
kind of rock and rollers, you know, like Debbie Harry,
Christy Heine, Patti Smith, even Stevie Nicks.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
You know, Steven was awesome.

Speaker 3 (05:57):
Yeah, she's real.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Rock and roll.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yeah, I've burned at heart, you know, So that's true. Actually,
I mean that band, I mean, their music was very
kind of accessible, but their lifestyle, yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
It was wild.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
I know.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
So Yeah, I had an amazing I had amazing women
to look up to. And they were the first generation
of women who have been allowed to age, which is
again something that hasn't happened really historically, is that women
have been allowed to work.

Speaker 2 (06:23):
I think still these women still, I think the women
still get it worse than men about aging.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Like you still see that, like articles that look at
her now.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
It's awful. I mean, they do it. They've done it
to me, and it's so gut wrenching when it happens.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
Do you ever meet Carrie Fisher?

Speaker 3 (06:39):
No, I've never met Carry Fisher, although she was friendly
with a lot of people I knew.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Oh, Carrie was a friend of mine.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
I was very friendly with Carrie and I loved her,
and she talked to me about that. She said, I
didn't think when I was twenty four years old and
I put on that metal bikini in Star Wars, that
I was making a fucking contract to look like that
for the rest of my life.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
And I would be shamed and putting the pillory for
not looking like that when I was fifty years old.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Yeah, and I get it.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
It's shocking. It's of open prejudice, I think as well.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
I wish it was the last bastion, but I think
there's quite a few other.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
I think important people try and kind of hide it
a little bit. And oh yeah, I'm very inclusive, but
I don't. What they say now is they say it's
woke if they.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
Want to kind of say that they don't like you,
or they're angry at what you think.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
They call you woke, Well, they call you woke when
they feel a little guilty that you're aware that they're
being an absolute asshole towards someone else.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, I see, I'm very capable of being an absolute ass.

Speaker 3 (07:40):
Well, look who you're talking to me, And I'm really
good at it too. But I mean the stepping on
people's necks currently, I really find it frightening. Actually, I
think I think it's worse than it used to be.
I do, Yeah, I mean I think the world has
always been awful, right That's just how the world is.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
You're only happy when it rains.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
I think it's pretty bad right now, I really do.
I think there's a very sort of just a right
swing around the world, all over the globe, and it's
allowed people to voice really horrible ideas about other people.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
The awful thing I think about it is that if
you believe in free speech, which I kind of do,
then I suppose you have to believe in the right
of people to voice awful shit, which is a shame.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, I don't know. See, I don't know if if
you if freedom of speech is to allow people to
spew hate, I think it's really dangerous. But I understand
that it's a very thin line. Unfortunate.

Speaker 1 (08:37):
Who was it was?

Speaker 2 (08:38):
It was a russo or I think it was Rousseau
who said, I may not agree with what you say,
but I will defend to the death you're right to say.

Speaker 3 (08:45):
It sounds like Russou sounds French, it does. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
And then and then the French, or God bless them,
they're mad again. They're setting their garbage guys around strike,
they're setting fire to the town halls because they're raised,
you know, raised the retirementge from sixty two to sixty four.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah. Like I love that by the French. I love
whether they take it sitting down, but.

Speaker 1 (09:09):
The idea of to write, so who's right? And then
the sixty two year.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Olds like, we're so aggurate. I'm so tired, but I've
got one more riot in me. I'm going out and
the blessomar I love it.

Speaker 2 (09:24):
That's I'm very envious of you in the fact that
in your world you get to play Paris and Madrid
and South America and all that, because music is universal
and what I do is just you know, like, no,
I have to talk to people that understand.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
What the fuck I'm saying. Yeah, that's true, that's horrible.
Just go and learn a few languages. I thought about
Eddie doesn't wanderin. I'd like you to learn a little Mandarin.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
You know, my son speaks Mandarin.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
See it's great, Yeah, it's he's really good at well,
I don't know if he's really good at don't speaking
of it, but other people seem to amazing.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Yeah, Chinese people kind of talk to him and he
talks about that's the coolest ever, I think, because it's
very hard. No, I wish I did.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
What do you speak? Then? You speak?

Speaker 3 (10:05):
I speak a little bit of French. That's because you're
from all the lions in the French.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
Scott's in the French against the English. Do you go
back to Scotland a lot? Because the last time I
saw you was actually he through airport. Were both getting
off a plane.

Speaker 3 (10:20):
During COVID and there was nobody else on the train
but you and me and my husband. You were on
the train and my husband got on the train and
for some reason, I was trolling behind nearly I was
like the doors and I suddenly pushed my way in
and I felt the annoyance of another the only other

(10:42):
passenger on the train, and to my horror, it was.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Me Worse than that, it was a Scottish person's unbelieva people.

Speaker 3 (10:50):
Hey, Scottish people.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Unless they're prepared, you know what I mean? You have
to be prepared for it. You just like running Scottish
I think scott Yeah, it's so weird, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (11:03):
It's quite weird that Megan says that to me, is like,
what the fuck is that with you guys? I'm like,
I don't know, It's just weird.

Speaker 1 (11:09):
We are very strange people.

Speaker 3 (11:11):
I love that though, Yeah, we're I love the Scots.
I can't help myself.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
They are the odd Would you ever go back there
and live? Do you think I would?

Speaker 3 (11:19):
I've talked about it. After COVID, I went kind of
mad here being living in La right, and I just
woke up one day and there was literally twenty four
helicopters buzzing around our house and had been for hours
and hours on end. There were people protesting in the streets,
and it was quite intense and heartbreaking, and then there
was an earthquake and I sat up, ball upright and shouted,

(11:46):
well I did, and yes you did.

Speaker 1 (11:49):
I did. I went home and it's raining.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yes, it's raining. All I could have told you that,
though love.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Is always raining.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
And on that amazing house, No, I moved to.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Another amazing house. Do you want to buy the amazing
house I've trying.

Speaker 3 (12:04):
To sell that? Do you realize what happens? Musicians don't
make enough money anymore?

Speaker 1 (12:08):
No? I don't know if that's true. You guys level.

Speaker 3 (12:10):
Musicians, trust me, don't make enough. People think we're really
rich because they think we're like Beyonce or The Weekend.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
It's not like that, yeah, but you know what those guys,
But I don't know. I mean that's not mid level though.
I mean, like you're playing big, You're going to tour
with No Gallagher this year. I wouldn't describe either you
or No Gallaghers like that's top tier.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
Well, it is top tier, but it's still, like, I
don't know, there's just a huge gulf between us obviously
and baby bands who are really struggling, and then us
and those heavyweights that I've just mentioned, like they make
handle our fist, you know, and that's not the case
for us. Like, if we're not touring, we're not making money. Yeah,
because records don't sell anymore. They don't kind of you

(12:58):
can't make money. You can't make money through radio play
like you used to. You just can't make any money
unless you get your arse off the couch and go
and play.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
And it's it's hard work, it is, but it's it's
also kind of interesting because the musicians that I tend.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
To like, I love music and I we're musicians, and
I think like that.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
I even think like that when I'm right stand up
has the show has to run, like and I tour
with Tamas who if he's not touring with me, he's
touring with Dinas or Junior or or somebody.

Speaker 1 (13:30):
I don't know if people.

Speaker 2 (13:33):
Like most of the people he deals with are like
quiet and introspective and and I'm like, hey, yeah, but
you're a rock star. I was just a I'm just
a vulgar lounge entertainer.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
But but the but the idea of I'm I think
that the people that I tend to like you are
one of them. As an artist, you would do it
if there was no money in it. Yeah, you know,
it's what you do.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
And because I remember I did I tell you this?
I toured with the Rolling Stones for a while.

Speaker 3 (14:09):
No, you haven't told me that.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, I was writing a script with Mick Jagger.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
How do I not know this story?

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Well we never made the movie, but I got fired.
But I was.

Speaker 3 (14:20):
But I toured with him for a couple of months
and it was on the Bridges to Babylon tours.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
So it was a while ago.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
But I remember watching Keith Richards, who became the focus
of my fascination, not Meg. Mike's a I'm not saying
I'm not comparing myself to Meg, but he's an entertainer.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
He's a like a razzle, dazzle show off man. But
I became fascinated by Keith Richards, who if he was
playing a pub in South London, he'd be just as happy.
Yeah he's not. I don't think he really even sees
that world.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, I agree, I mean he's that's what makes him
so extraordinary. But that's what I think makes the bands.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
I mean, when you talk about Beyonce or The Weekend
or I don't know anything really about them. Artists I
know they're huge and people love them, but it doesn't
seem to me to be the same kind of thing.
That's show business and rock and roll, and show business
to me are a little different.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Rock and roller is kind of like circus folk. Really,
you know, it's kind of I think that's fair disreputable,
but it's very out of vogue to be a sort
of rock and roller. Of course it will. Yeah, it's funny.
I once met Karen a Party from the lead singer
of the Ya Yes, and we were talking about rock

(15:31):
music and I said to her something along the lines of,
you know, oh god, yeah, I know, but I really
embarrassed to be a you know, a rock and roller.
And she went, how can you possibly be embarrassed? We're
like a dying breed, you are. You're fucking being a
rock and roller. Yeah, it's the coolest, And I was like,
it totally changed my kind of like view on it.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
It fucking is.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
I mean, it's like being like the women that you mentioned,
Debbie Harry and Susie so Edible, Chrissy Haying. I mean,
these are fucking seminal artists, and I think that it
transcends so much rock and roll whan has done right,
Like it's that feeling of you know, I think it
was the guy in Son what was what's the name
of that guy that a head that runs you know

(16:14):
that band's Son that do the really loud drone metal stuff.
They're talking about absorbing the sound through your body, not
just your ears, but like the whole that to me,
rock and rolls like that since I saw Hawkwind when
I was thirteen years old in the Glasgow Apollo, just.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
A fucking size of it.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
It's crazy, and I don't think you get that with
you know, the stadium shows.

Speaker 3 (16:41):
I don't think I agree, but I think it's definitely
out vogue to voice you know, fury and lust and
you know, even like Unbridled Joy. It's just uncool for
some reason. And it's all this very contained pop music
currently that people are really into. But everybody that you're
ever going to meet has got streaks of you know,

(17:04):
darkness in them, and that's what I love music.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
I love what Robert Fripp said about rock and rolling pop.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
Do you ever hear that he's incredible?

Speaker 2 (17:12):
The main fucking invented the guitar solo style. I mean,
but Robert Fripp said about rodd. He said, the difference
between pop music and rock and raw is that in
pop music people fall in love and kiss each other.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
In rock and rall, someone's getting fucked.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
Amazing, amazing.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
It's just when you say, you know, voice and lust
and fury and and that to me is that's the difference,
I guess. And so let me take you on a journey,
if I may, you may back to the we were talking.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
Briefly about the Columbia.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
Hotel in London.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
London.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Yeah, when I stayed there when I was drumming in
bands like I guess the early to mid nineteen eighties, which.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
You would have been. I was there.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
You were kicking off with Goodbye mister McKenzie at that time, right,
we were like they were a sizable band in the
UK at that time.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
Yeah, they were doing well.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
And that hotel that's where everyone used to go in
was the rock and roll hotel.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
It was.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
It was like London's I guess, right High or right
High wherever it was. I got into a fight there once.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
You're very unruly when you were young. I mean, you're
unruly enough now.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
No, But I got into a fight with Mark Allman's manager,
How did you manage that? I don't know, I can't remember.
It wasn't really a proper fight. I think it was
a lot of pushing and shoving and stuff, but I
think we were both out of shape and a bit scared.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
So it was like a lot of move fu you
fuck you anyway.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
But that and I remember people in the bar.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
Of that hotel getting really twisted. Oh a lot did
you do A lot of that? Did a lot of that?
I mean, my first band, good Bye Miss McKenzie, was wild,
like proper wild ye rock and roll, lifestyle, rock and
everything has been very tame ever since, to be honest,
even our wildest days in Garbage had nothing on good
Bye Mister McKenzie. But yeah, being in that bar. I

(19:16):
can still really remember that bar in the Columbia Hotel.
The curtains, the weird curtains, and oh the carpet, and the.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
Carpet was it was like it wasn't really a carpet.
It was just like old beer and seamen.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
I was just actually going to go somewhere like that.
But you're right, very crusty.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
It was awful. But I think that the anecdotal part
of that, I I mean I suppose things move on,
but does that still exist for young musicians and young
of course we're still doing that.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Yeah, although it's apparently the new generation are a lot
are risk averse. You know, they're just not as wild
as we all used to be. They're a bit more,
they know a lot more. But there's still, of course,
there are still wild sides to the rock and roll business.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
I feel I feel sorry for the younger generation because
everything is documented.

Speaker 1 (20:07):
So every mistake they make there's it's there they it's
there forever, you know.

Speaker 3 (20:12):
That's why I think they do temper themselves a little
more than we. I mean, I would take my top
off in the bar, you know, at the Columbia Hotel,
just to be a brat. Well I'm so glad everybody
else you would say, a great girl, a great gal,
but you know, a big show offie yea like shocking. First,

(20:32):
I don't know why I did that, but I did it.
And now I don't think there's that many.

Speaker 1 (20:37):
You can't do that anymore.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
I think also kids, I don't know, I mean because
I'm kind of at the get off my lawn age,
but I kind of see the younger generation.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
I think they're great. I actually think they're great.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
They're great, they're they're they're the challenge, and they're fucking
they're difficult and they're annoying. So that's good. Everything is
good in that respect. But I feel sorry for them
because they are risk of it a little bit. That
they are a little they place themselves a little too.

Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yeah, and they're all worried. Apparently there's a lot of
anxiety and question and I don't know, God, we're getting
very dark today. No, I don't know, but I feel
bad for them. And they're not having as much sex
as we used to have. That's another weird twist to
the tea.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Probably avoid antibiotics, but they might not need the answer, right,
That's what I was thinking.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
But it was an odd environment. I suppose it was
very kind of back an alien them. And I wonder, now,
here's an interesting thing because I thought if I was
looking at that now and if I had a daughter
in that environment that I was in, so when you
were a.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Young girl, i'd be like, oh, I don't know, I
feel about that. I mean, you would you are tough,
and I think that's okay.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
But I think there were girls there who weren't tough
who were like, that'd be fucking scary. There were some
bad guys around.

Speaker 3 (21:54):
Yeah, I mean there's still bad guys around.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yes, there are, No, that's true.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
I don't think that's changed any Unfortunately, the percentage of
you know, dudes that when it hurt girls is perplexing
to me. I don't understand it. It's really beyond my understanding.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
I mean those people are that's a different thing. I mean, yes,
they exist. But what I'm thinking more is just the
general kind of blockerry.

Speaker 3 (22:17):
I mean there is still that unfortunately in the music industry.
It's really bad actually, but it's not quite as bad
as it was in the eighties.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Yeah, I think it's funny. I get out of it
very quickly.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
I mean I was out of it by the time
I was twenty one. I wasn't drumming anymore.

Speaker 3 (22:35):
Wow wild Yeah, I wish I could say the same.
I never got out of it really well.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
I think I regret getting it.

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yeah, sometimes, and then I see how much of drummer
makes now and I'm like, yeah, you.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
Know, you made a good choice.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Everybody.

Speaker 3 (22:49):
Yeah, let's look at your bank. Why monkeys. But it's
very free still if you want it. To be being
a musician can really live pretty freely, and that's the
greatest gift.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Does anyone live free? Though? If we're all taking video
of each other all the time.

Speaker 3 (23:05):
Though, that's getting very profound.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Well I know, but it's just like we fucking volunteered
to be in this fucking big brother society.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
We don't even need big Brother. We do it to
her fucking selves.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Yeah, it's like you volunteer to We live in this
giant fucking neighborhood watch scheme.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
We do. And yet there there's so much content now,
and there's so much testimony. I don't know if you're anymore.
You know, I feel like you're as anonymous as you
always wear. I mean, who fucking cares? Yeah, I don't care.
It's like fucking I don't care if you're watching me
or filming me. I really don't give a toss.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Right, Well, that's because you're a rock and roll star.
But if you were applying for a job and Denny's,
they're going to fucking google you when you turn up.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Oh, I see what you're saying. See you with your top.

Speaker 1 (23:53):
Off in the bar and the you know, I think
she should be actually the hostess so bad, but it's
it's kind of no.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
I see what you're saying.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
I think it's it's a shame. But I don't know
what you do.

Speaker 3 (24:08):
But I don't put your tits. So youre are So
you're on the internet, Well that's really pretty simple. But
once it's done, it's done.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
I don't know that. So are you too?

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Are you going back to South America and all that
kind of stuff? Do you live inside the bubble of
the tour or do you make do you force yourself out?

Speaker 3 (24:28):
And I always insist on going out, and I literally
send our security guard into like mad anxiety. He can
hardly handle it. I'm like, I want to go and
do this, and I want to do that, and I
want to see this, and yeah, I'm a huge culture whore,
so I'll go anywhere and do anything. And he just
has to keep up with me.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
And do you think that helps in the in the
business of writing and creativity to do that, because I
always think that if you start writing songs about how
great you are and how much money you have, you
lose me a little bit, as I know, audience member.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
But I think it's really inspiring. I mean, I just
think about our last record, which is arguably the most
political I've ever gotten. It's not even that political, but
it was inspired by going to South America and seeing
what was going on in Chile and basically the people's
uprising because they just couldn't take the disparity between the
rich and the poor any longer. And they went out
into the streets and they bucked shit up and they

(25:23):
eventually got change in their constitution, which was so inspiring
to me. It was really moving, and I would never
ever have had that experience had I not gone down there. Yeah,
so were you there when it was when it was
kicking off, and it was wild, and I saw shit
that I will never recover from, to be honest. Yeah,
really crazy stuff. We were in traffic, were stuck in

(25:45):
traffic because it was crazy, and there were literally millions
of people in the streets. And yeah, we passed a
police station and they were blaring music and you heard
someone screaming above the blaring music. And then the government
was you know, they didn't have clean water, and they
weren't giving people access to clean water if you weren't rich,
couldn't afford water. And we were driving through this Chilean

(26:08):
countryside just outsids Santiago, and there was just fields of
dead horses because they couldn't and it was really heavy,
you know, like that is just heavy, heavy stuff, And
it was just because they had a corrupt government that
believed that it was fine for the poor to suffer
as long as they had their wealth. And it just
put into highlight to me how insane capitalism is and

(26:29):
how this just obsession with money and power is.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
This is an official invitation to the Fancy Rascal stand
up Show I Craig Ferguson will be performing this fall
in your region. You can buy tickets and check out
the full list of dates at the Craig Ferguson Show
dot com slash dour see you.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
There or not.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
That's interesting that you would say that capitalism is insane because.

Speaker 3 (27:02):
It kind of the type of capitalism that we have, right.
I'm not anti capitalist, but it's.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
An interesting thing though, because I remember when I was
very young, because I'm from Glasgow and you're from Edinburgh,
and I always thought people from Edinburgh had more money
than people from Glasgow.

Speaker 3 (27:17):
And I think it's a kind of broad stroke rule
of thing. It was a richer city, that's true.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yeah, it was a capital and then also just that
time in the eighties that that kind of was true.
And then so I had been always raised in a
very like my grandfather was a red clydesider and all
that kind of stuff. So I was a very socialist
ethos and everywhere I looked. And the first time did
you ever go to Russia when the Soviets were in charge,

(27:42):
because it goes I never did. My sister did, but
I never did. I only went after it kicked off
and everything went crazy kind of gangsterism over in like
the post Soviet boom, capitalism boom, and I remember being there,
and so someone saying talking about capitalism and saying, the

(28:03):
problem with capitalism is that requires a reasonably honest police force.
And if it doesn't doesn't have to be one hundred percent,
but it has to be reasonably honest. And if it's
not reasonably honest, you've got Chicago in the nineteen twenties
or Moscow in the nineteen nineties, or sounds to me.
I don't know end about child, but but I feel

(28:26):
like that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
If there's a crisis not government police, if there's a
crisis in police, then you've got a crisis in society
because if people don't trust the police, or if they
or if the police aren't trustworthy or both, then that's
when you get real fucking problems in capitalists or any society.
I suppose when you think about it.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
And then when you mix that with police and government, yeah,
you know you're in a lot of trouble.

Speaker 1 (28:53):
Are you an American citizen?

Speaker 3 (28:54):
I am.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
It's funny because I think when you become a citizen,
you're allowed to participate in that.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
When before I was a citizen, I.

Speaker 3 (29:01):
Would never talk about any politics here.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
I don't really talk about it now actually because I'll
talk to you about it because we're talking, but I
would never in the act talk about politics.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
Won't do it.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
But you're also you were in real mainstream like entertainment,
and I don't know if you're certainly in this country.
Are you in adverted commas tolerate? It's not tolerated, you.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Know, that is actually I think if you look at
what I was doing then, like I was in late.

Speaker 3 (29:27):
Night, but you were there to make people feel good. Yeah,
if you tossed on about politics.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
That you are all political now they all they're all
political and like the whole thing is is and to
even if I was still doing it, to not be
political would be seen as being political. They would assume
you were right wing unless.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
You were like being very different climate it is, well,
I think it started.

Speaker 2 (29:50):
We watched the tv R in about twenty sixteen, because
I think it kicked off around then.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
Yeah, I think you might be right. I mean, things
have just got so polarized, polarized and crazy and unreasonable. Yeah.
You know, when you talk about reasonable police we don't
currently have a reasonable police force. We don't even have
reasonable political parties. They're both unreasonable as far as I
unconcerned right and the left.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
I think it goes all the way across. I mean,
I think if you if you think about I had
friends in my life, I still do have friends in
my life.

Speaker 3 (30:23):
I find that very hard to be Yea, I have friends.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
Of my people who I think are fucking idiots and
their views are shit and either're just you know, what
they think how the world, to be honest is awful.
But they're my friend.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
What are you going to do?

Speaker 1 (30:40):
So you know, you just I just don't bring that
up when I'm talking to them. And I wonder, I wonder.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
If that is dying out with the sense of the
if you have the algorithm that only in your if
your friendships or your interactions socially are fueled by your phone.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Or it's just your phone. Let's not talk about computers.
It's your fucking phone.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
So all your interactions are informed by the algorithm. Will
show you this because this is what it wants you
to say. You're being led away from discourse and led
into you know, furious yeah, yeah, yeah, and the inability
to debate. Computers can't debate. That's ones are zeros, so

(31:23):
they don't have they talk about AI. But yeah, it's
fucking billshit, it's a lie. I don't think it's it's
not a lie.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
It's a bias, right.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Right, Okay, yeah, you're right, it's it's it does exist,
but it doesn't have that thing. It's pop music versus
rock and roll. It's sure you listen through your ears,
but but not really. I mean, you talk to a
deaf person will go to a rock and roll show
and and love it because you feel it, you know,
you feel the whole.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
Yeah, but I don't think computers do I think computers
just hear it?

Speaker 3 (31:54):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (31:55):
It's like you it's it's like it's one it's only
using some of the of the equipment, but not all
of them.

Speaker 3 (32:03):
Well, indeed, and I think get in there, trust me. Yeah,
really getting scary, I do.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
I think. I also think the Internet is a phase
that will go the way of CB radio. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
Well, let's hope.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
So it's never coming back.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
Although I mean it's really handy for so many things.

Speaker 1 (32:21):
Totally agree.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
I love it too. Oh, I love it for some things.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, and I love it for like I love a good,
you know, dog that can balance a plate on its
head and stuff.

Speaker 3 (32:31):
And I'm obsessed with the animal videos. It's actually really worrying.
I might need to go and see somebody about it.

Speaker 1 (32:36):
Do you know what that is?

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Anxiety?

Speaker 1 (32:38):
Sadness, It's it's part of the aging process.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Oh yeah, fair enough. I just love animal videos. Yea.
I even have animals that I don't like in my house.
I have a really old dog and I'm obsessed by
her and I don't know what I'm going to do
when she decides she is already halfway out the door, yeah,

(33:02):
and I want to follow her. It's literally that insane.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
I understand that.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
But here's the thing because do you remember Cabbage the
French bulldog that of course Cabbage sadly shuffled off this
morll coil about two years ago. It was bad, like
she lost an eye. First she was I mean she
was a rescue dog because French bulldogs shouldn't really exist.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
I don't think.

Speaker 3 (33:26):
It was a weird something very odd there.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
And then she had like an extra nipple and a
weird ass and she was run toy and Milo mouldest
boy used to say nine nipples, zero fox.

Speaker 2 (33:40):
But when she died, I thought, well that's that's it. Yeah,
and now we have Seamus Fabulous, who was a Jack
Russell tener.

Speaker 3 (33:49):
They're my favorite breed of dogs.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
Oh my god, they're fucking crazy.

Speaker 3 (33:53):
They're full on.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
Do you know the difference between a Jack Russell and
a French bulldog? French bulldog people kiss and fall in
love Russell, somebody's getting fucked. I mean, they are fucking crazy.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
They're not crazy, they're just they don't go along. Yeah,
they don't give a fuck. And they're wild. I mean
they're hunters. That's why they were bread.

Speaker 1 (34:14):
They'll go down together, they will.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
And they'll kill it and bring it back to you blood.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
Yeah, good face good Now what kind of dog as
you doing?

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Jack Russell next?

Speaker 1 (34:25):
See, that's what I'm thinking.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
But she's got a wee bit Chihuaha in her so
she's quite docile. But she was wild when she was young,
were you? Yeah, well exactly how are you wilder? Are
you wild?

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Now? Do you still about wild?

Speaker 3 (34:35):
I am not wild, but I do notice that I'm
I really really don't give a fuck, and that is
a wildness in itself. Worse. Yeah, of course, of course
I love that.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
It's one of the good things about it.

Speaker 3 (34:49):
Well, I don't know, It's been really great for my career.
I wouldn't have had this longer career if I was docile.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
No, but but you were beast. But you had to be.
You had to be, I mean, and you were you
were when I first saw you perform.

Speaker 2 (35:03):
You're a young woman in this particularly aggressive period of music,
you know, I mean, it's like that.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
All the energy was big and loud and noisy and tough,
big fucking open ee chords and fucking tom tom drums
and wait, you're time very tough, and you were.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
Part of that. So of course you are.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Of course you you become like that I think it's
great that you're still there.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
I don't know there. Sometimes when I come home from
dinner parties and things like that, I'm always having the
conversation with my husband and it's like, did I did
I embarrass myself tonight? You know?

Speaker 1 (35:41):
No? You no.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
I'll always say did I embarrass you tonight? And he'll
always say, no, you just embarrass yourself.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
See that's pretty good. That's really why I know, because
I don't know Billy very well. But what I know
about Billy is this, Yeah, he's slightly embarrassed all the time.

Speaker 3 (35:59):
No, it's quite the open, yeah, which is why I
married him.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
He's quiet, He's so quiet, he's got a calm air.

Speaker 3 (36:05):
I want to be like more like Billy do. And
I have learned to like chill a wee bit because
of him. Like he is never gives himself away socially.
Now I know you well enough to know that you
give yourself away like I do over and over and
over again.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
The rooms start crying.

Speaker 3 (36:18):
Same thing, And he's just like always like he just
listens to people. And I find that astounding because I'm
a broadcaster.

Speaker 1 (36:25):
Yeah, I think I think it's dignity.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
It's dignity and it's powerful and I'm just like like
a big messy labrador licking everybody's faces, you know. But
at the same time it takes all sorts. Of course
it does. And clearly Billy is fond of you. Yeah,
he loves me. Today it should be a very very
pitiful lead singer. He'd be crasy. It wouldn't be this

(36:48):
you want to watch that.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
I got, you know, I have struggle with that sometimes
when bands watch a band and the singers like shy
and they're airs in front of the face, I'm like, hey, hey,
people at the fucking back have paid two pal come on,
let's fucking see your eyes and teeth.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
Let's go.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
But we grew up with Bruce Forsyth show.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
I mean.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
That's our style. But I'd love to be a floppy,
shy singer at the front. I mean, I'd love to
be like that mysterious and everyone going, oh, she's so cool, so.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
Cool and mysterious. Do you think you're cooling? Don't think
nobody thinks. I think that would be a reach.

Speaker 3 (37:27):
But cool, I'm fucking quite hot, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (37:31):
Okay, okay, but I think look, if I had to,
if I had no you, Luke, no you you look
at this if I had if I had a daughter,
I don't. But if I had a daughter, I'd want
her to be like you. I'd want her to be
confident and like fuck you.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
Let's get my dad on the phone show.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah. See, your dad's an interesting dude, Yes he is.
You know your dad was the correct me.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
If I'm wrong, I will, which you never fucking shy
about doing that ever before. But your dad was the
moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Is that right?

Speaker 3 (38:07):
No, I don't know if that's true. He certainly was
a member of.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
That the group of elders, the correct that he was
an elder there, Yeah, which that which is?

Speaker 2 (38:17):
He did a pretty cool thing though, didn't he wasn't
he involved in the recognition of gay marriage within that church.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
Well, he certainly voted for that, right.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
He's a good man, my dad, and he's a bit
punk rock onto himself. Let me just put it this way.
He just recently told me he was planning his funeral.
I am not involved. I'm not allowed to be involved.
My other two sisters are involved. Do you get to
Go's what I said? Am I invited to this event?
And he's also written his own obituary. Who does that?

(38:47):
Who does that?

Speaker 1 (38:48):
That's a pretty cool thing.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
It's not cool, it's silly. As I said to him, Dad,
if you've written your own obituary, that's really all good,
you know. But I will survive you, and I will.
I can write you, I can write over your a bit.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
That's true. It's kind of a waste.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
It's control, very very cross. When I said that, yeah,
it's a bit of a control, and I was roaring
with laughter.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
But he's clearly a very religious man.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
He kind of his faith got shaken during COVID. Oh,
it was really wild to watch. This is a man
I grew up with. He was my Sunday school teacher,
and during COVID his faith kind of deserted him a little.
It was wild. It's coming back now. I notice.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
Why would COVID have all things?

Speaker 3 (39:30):
He felt like, well, it's interesting should say that, because
he felt really disillusioned by organized religion. He felt like
the church just left people to it, like, left them alone,
didn't support them, didn't find money to bring to the poor. Literally,
I mean right, I don't know, it sent them off
into this weird, like we were really shaken by it. Like,

(39:50):
what's happened to Dad? Is he going to the devil?

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Did you become religious?

Speaker 3 (39:57):
Oh? God?

Speaker 1 (39:58):
No? Well where are you in the whole God thing?

Speaker 3 (40:02):
I don't believe in anything? Really, I think it's very religious,
is it? Yes?

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yes, I think that's a very religious thing.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
What on earth do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (40:14):
Well, here's what I mean by that. If you are,
would you describe yourself as an atheist?

Speaker 3 (40:21):
Maybe I feel like I'm getting tricked. No, no, no,
say yes, I would say yeah, I would say I'm
an atheist. See.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
I think atheism is the most fundamental religious stance that
human being contained.

Speaker 3 (40:35):
And what do you mean by that? What I mean
is this what you're saying is I know.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
Socrates wrong, Einstein wrong, Saint Francis of ASSISI wrong, all
you people in human history that believed in God.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
You're all wrong.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
I'm right, that's an atheist position.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
But I don't disagree with Einstein or Socrates.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
They both believed in God.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
Right, I see what you're saying. Well, we have a
difference of opinion. Right, they were wrong. Well, here's my
feeling about religion. I get what you're saying, So it's
an interesting point, and you've sent me spinning, and I'm
going to be thinking about this all day. But I
can't help but think religion has been designed by men
ye who cannot accept that they really are not that important,

(41:27):
and it's totally complete construct and so it's really hard
for me to tune into that and fall in line
with it.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
You know, Yes, I agree with that, and I think
you're right. But what I also think is religion is
not God. Religion is religion.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
Yes, and God. But you asked me if I was religious.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
I did, and so you've tricked me and you run
the day I did. But I also asked, do you
believe in God? Or if I didn't, I meant to,
do you believe in God?

Speaker 3 (42:00):
I believe in dogs? Yeah, I do, somewhere somewhere in
my face. I mean, I believe in nature right, That
to me is the only thing really I can believe
in with any certainty. And of dogs, dogs and nature.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
Dogs are part of nature, of course they are.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
And also I think that is to me, that's more
to do with God than you know, the idea of
angry Santa on a cloud.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
Do you go to church? I don't.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
But I built one. What well, we moved You're getting
right weird on me, now, yeah, no, no, I'm a
little weird. Get it.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
It's not that I built one, it's that we moved
house in Scotland. We moved to a place that had
a bit more land because we wanted to keep some
horses right.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
And the place that we bought had.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
An old, broken down chapel type building on it. And
during COVID, I had nothing to fucking do, so I
kind of.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
Looked at YouTube videos of carpentry and thing and stuff,
and I thought, that little chapel thing, I'm going to
put it back, and and I so.

Speaker 2 (43:06):
And I'm not a religious person at all. I'm not
in part of any organized religion at all. But I thought, well,
what harm I'm going to do put the little building back.
Then I found a little bell, so I put the
bell in the church. Tell me in a local joiner.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
We got up there and put the bell and it's
a beautiful little church.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
And the guy who works on the place where that
works on the estate, he's he's very Scottish and he
said what church is that? Because he's he's from a
slightly different like I was raised in a Protestant like you, yeah,
and he was raised as Catholic, which in Scotland is
you know, it's a big or was a big deal.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
I hope it's not so much, still is for some people.

Speaker 3 (43:47):
But he said to me, so what is it? Then
I said what do you mean?

Speaker 1 (43:51):
What is it? I said, well, is it Church of
Scotland or the proper one? And I said it's a
non denominational Church of Scotland. They said, that's no a church.
I said, it fucking is.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
Now, it's right there. That's brilliant. So it's just a
it's a but I got some pews. I bought some
pews and I.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Put them in, and like, there's no imagery from anybody's religion,
but there's some places to set in.

Speaker 3 (44:19):
Some books and stuff, place to be.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
Yeah, I like that. The first book I put in
it was Young's Read.

Speaker 3 (44:25):
Book, How Fantastic?

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yeah, So which is all different religious imagery and stuff
like that.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
Do you when you travel do you go to local churches?
Because I do all the time. I don't.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
Actually I should do that. I used to kind of
do that a little bit in Europe, but I haven't
done it in America so much.

Speaker 3 (44:41):
Well, yeah, they're not quite as grand as they are
in Europe.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
Yeah, well yeah, when you do that, So like when
you go to South so you've seen a lot of
Catholic churches then for a Protestant, yeah, a.

Speaker 3 (44:51):
Lot of cathedrals. And I love it. I have to say, like,
I don't know why I'm drawn to it. So there
must be some weird like pool from me with religion,
of course, of course, because the impulse.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Look, capitalism in and of itself is not evil, but
people could use it for evil.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Religion in and of itself I don't believe is even of.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Course used, although it was constructed to control the people,
the poor. That's that's where religion basically began as a
way of control, at least in I don't like relatively
modern history.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
I think. I think in modern times, I think that's true.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
But I think the impulse to try and figure it
out or to recognize the larger thing, I don't know
about that.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
I don't think so. I think when the when the
Roman Empire co opted Christianity, I think that was a
power move for sure, that was perc and certainly a
lot of a lot of different religions have done that,
But I'm not so sure about it anymore. I used
to be a lot sure about it, and I'm not.
Like as I built my wee church and I thought, well,

(46:01):
who am I a pressing here? Well, nobody, I am
a local joiner to help me put the.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
Bail up pressing.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
I don't want to oppress anybody. I don't think. I
don't want to even people I don't agree with.

Speaker 3 (46:20):
What then, what is your relationship to Like, why are
you a comedian? Because that is a that is something
you're honest truth, I don't I fell into it.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
I think that.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
But you've been doing it long enough.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
I have been doing it for a long time. I
think that.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
I just it was very forgiving of a lifestyle that
I had when I started that. You know, you could
be fucking hammered and late and still kind of get by,
certainly in the early days.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
You can't now, like you've just finished a tour here
in North America. I like doing it. I know, I
love doing Why do you like doing it?

Speaker 2 (46:56):
It's my instrument, it's my band, it's my it's my guitar,
it's my Keith Richards.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
It's like I play the guitar. I go there and
I play it. It's what I do.

Speaker 3 (47:06):
What is it doing?

Speaker 1 (47:08):
It's fulfilling an emotional and financial need.

Speaker 3 (47:13):
I think, well, aside from the finances, I mean, you
have to make a living.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Right.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
As you've gotten older, surely you must have a different
idea of why you do what you do than you
did when you were younger.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
No, I do I feel alive when I do it.
Do you remember the movie Chariots of Fire? Of course,
it's great, beautiful Edinburgh feeling in that movie. And when
Ian Charleston, who plays I can't remember the ad.

Speaker 3 (47:44):
Ian, Oh god, damn it. The Runner, Yeah, the.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Runner, beautiful Scottich runner who wouldn't run on a Sunday.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
I yes, I think I think it was something like that.
He wouldn't run on a Sunday.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
That was the story that he was a Scottish athlete
the Olympics in the nineteen and he wouldn't run on
a Sunday because of his faith.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
And somebody asked him about it. His sister is what
it was, says in the movie. It's a great line
in the movie.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Because he wanted to be a missionary in China, and
in fact he did become a missionary in China and
died there. But he says this line about running and
about China. His sister says, you should be a missionary,
and he said, I know. He said, I believe God
made me for a purpose, and that purpose is China.
But when I run, I feel his pleasure, and I

(48:34):
feel like I feel a little bit like I'm connected
to something when I do stand up.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
But you must enjoy. But yeah, of course, like as
I've gotten older, I'm like, oh, I'm actually in service.
I'm basically, you know, I'm here to make people feel
better than when they walked in. Yeah, and then when
it's gotten clearer and clearer for me, that, oh, that's
my service and this is such a great thing to do.

(49:01):
Is a purpose for me, right, And I just imagine
that if you you literally are going on stage to
make people laugh, it's the same thing. That connection with
people's it's a sense of purpose. It's like, which is
like organized religion in a way it's it is. I'm
not conflating by the way what we do with practicing,
you know, organized faith. I'm not deigning to do that.

(49:24):
I just mean the parallel.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
I think it's a good I think It's an interesting
way to look at it because there are parallels. There
are little rituals, you know, there are little things that
make people feel comfortable. You go to the merch table,
you get a warm beer in a plastic glass. There's
your communion. You go into the room. It smells of
weed and sweat, you know, yeah, and bum yeah.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
You hear that.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
Of the ams before the music starts going through them.
There there are rituals.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
There's the whole thing of we were talking about this
earlier actually that the idea of the on war for
rock acts is like, will they do an extra song?
I think they will?

Speaker 3 (50:04):
They do so annoying. I keep saying to my band,
let's not do an OnCore tonight, please, Can we just
do this set right? And they're like, no, no, no,
we have to do the OnCore. And I can't stand
an encore unless it's really warranted. I mean there's occasionally,
and I can count the warranted times, maybe five times
in my whole career, but we really warranted an encore. Yeah,

(50:26):
I know, so dumb.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
But you know, when I was going to see bands
when I was a kid, and I assume you were
doing the same when the band did an encore. It
was like when they came on and said good evening,
Glasgow or Edinburgh, this is our.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Favorite time to playing, and you'd be like it is
their favorite town to playing.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
Yeah, that's true, true.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
You feel like it feels special. It's part of being
live with the band. It's not TV, it's not a record.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
No, it's very special live. But it's when I was younger,
I guess I thought it was all about me and
what I'm trying to get at. It's just that ideas.
As I've gotten older and older, it's so not about
me anymore. It's like you're making if your challenge, Shirley
Anne Manson is to make people feel good tonight and
let's see if you can do it. And it feels
like a challenge to me. And when when I step

(51:15):
out into a hostile audience, I'm liking my brain, I'll
whin you over. Oh I'm going to make you feel
good And it's such a great feeling.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
I know, I fucking know that it's the weirdest thing.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
And I think only twisted Scottish people.

Speaker 1 (51:29):
I think people who are true performers respond to that.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
Like I noticed that with like in my business it's comedians,
but I've seen it with rock stars too, or rock
musicians even, or any musician that you go out in
front of an audience and you fail badly, and then
you go and do it again, and you go and
do it again, and I think, I.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Do I like this. I don't like it like a
little bit. There's something in it.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
I fucking like it's failure.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
It's weird. It's weird.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
You know.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
It's like that now when I look at young performers
and they go on YouTube and they don't fail because
they make it a little bit and they put it
out and it's good.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
They're not standing in.

Speaker 2 (52:18):
Front of you know, three hundred drunk Lasswegians who are
it's not even a comedy club. It's like, all right,
it's a disco stop for a minute, and now here's
some asshole thinks he's funny, and then you like, they're
not cheering when you walk on.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
I think what you do is really scary. It's really
really scary. So I would imagine the adrenaline rush must
be so intense.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
Do you know it's funny? Now? No? I wonder do
you get an adrenaline rush when you're on stage?

Speaker 3 (52:45):
Not really, not anymore.

Speaker 1 (52:46):
No, I see I don't either. I go to it different.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
I get Yeah, it's a different thing.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
It's like I remember once, when it was years and
years and years and years ago, I read an interview
with Michael Jackson, and it was how weird he was.
It was not about how weird he was, and there
was one or two of those and.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Certainly things going on, but in the interview he said
he felt so comfortable performing that he could sleep on stage.
And I remember at the time thinking that is the
strangest fucking thing I've ever heard. What a twisted, crazy mind.
And now when I get on stage, now I'm.

Speaker 3 (53:22):
Ready for a snoozl quite but I relax.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
Yeah, it's like now I can It's like getting into
the bath or something.

Speaker 3 (53:30):
Maybe I'm like being good at something. Yeah, when you're young,
you don't know that you can do something really until
you've done ten thousand hours of it, and then you're like,
I can gut it.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Just what Tony Hawk was saying the other day when
yeah he was talking about the ten thousand hours.

Speaker 3 (53:42):
I love Tony Hawk.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
Oh he's fantastic. Yeah, he's fantastic.

Speaker 3 (53:46):
He really is.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
He's very, very interesting dude, and that the same thing,
there's another guy. In order to do what he did,
you gotta fail over and over after fail fail fail,
fail fail. What I think is is a little bit
of a I worry for the younger generation is they
don't get to fail. And you got to because at

(54:07):
some point you're going to fail, But you don't get
to fail in private. You don't get to fail in
the dark little comedy club. You don't get to fail
without someone filming it, you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
Your humiliation is online, it's there for your failure is permanent.
But they also have this strange attitude I've noticed and
I've seen it with some of the young ones in
my life, is that they think they should be the
CEO of any company that you know. They get a
job as a tea and coffee runner and they're literally like,
well when am I going to get promotion? After like

(54:38):
two weeks? It's like, you know, you really have to
just stick in their kid, Oh, you're going to be
there for a while.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
It's like you're going to be fighting Mark Allman's manager
in the Columbia Hotel.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:47):
But they've got this weird, twisted idea of what of
doing well is and they all think they should be
famous and I know, have tons of followers and be influential.
It's really strange. It's not good.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
It's been around for a while.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
I'm I ember seen a trailer for Justin Bieber, the
Justin Bieber movie, when he was about eighteen, and there
was this tree.

Speaker 1 (55:08):
I didn't watch the movie because I watched it. I'm
not in the demographic, but either it's actually really well,
it was.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Good movie, but I was watching the trailer, and then
the trailer, which is of course not the movie, this
voiceover says.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
They said he'd never make it, and.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
I'm like, well, how long did they say that? Well,
he's fucking sixteen, Like who said it? Yeah, who said it?

Speaker 2 (55:31):
That's fucking ridiculous that everything has to be an epic
and everything has to be, you know, Madison Square Garden.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
By the time you're.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
Eighteen, you know that you don't understand it should be
Keith Richards Madison Square Garden or the fucking Dog and
Duck and eel Pie Island, doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
You've got the guitar in your hand.

Speaker 3 (55:51):
I noticed a weird thing though, at the Oscars this year,
where Lady Gaga performed, and I actually thought it was
really clever over like she just I think she's great too.
But she took off foll her makeup and was just
in sort of like how we dress, you know, like
how we dressed when we were young, like just jeans
and a T shirt, no makeup, you know. But then

(56:13):
she tells this we story before she starts singing, which is,
you know, I wrote this song in my basement and
blah blah blah, and I'm thinking of herself. Wait, hold
on a minute. We all know Lady Gaga is fucking loaded, right,
and she lives in a mansion, right, and she wrote
that song in this timeline that we're all aware of,
Like we all know that you became famous ten years
ago at this point, and so the basement that you're

(56:34):
writing your song in is in the basement of a
huge mansion. But the story isn't beautiful, right. So our stories,
all of us, came from a generation where people we
really did make records and write in disgusting like Midriy
Street basements and it's cool, right, But this new generation
they don't have that poetry because everything goes so fast.

(56:57):
They're famous within a nanosecond, really, and then if they're
smart and they've got good material, they'll stay on top,
so they get bored of it in a way. I
just thought this was really interesting construct again of like
authenticicity and you know punk rock ethos, which they clearly admire,
but they've had no they've not had any contact with it.

Speaker 2 (57:17):
I wonder if I'm making any sense, I make a
total I'm just gonna yes, and in you, I wonder
if that the ones that really are.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
Involved in the poetry, you and I don't know about them.
They're hiding from us.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
I know that for a fact.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Yeah, they're They're in basements in Akron, Ohi or Detroit,
Michigan or fucking you know, in New York or New
Jersey or Glasgow or Edinburgh, and we don't know about it.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm just saying how
interesting it was to have this huge star pretend that
they were smaller than they were. It was just I
can't explain. I really can't articulate this because it's just
come to me as we were speaking. No, I thought
it was fascinating.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
I think you, I think you are articulating it very well,
and I think it is fascinating. I think what it
is is that at a certain point I got to
this in my own life, and I wonder if it
happened to you when garbage was at the absolute, fucking,
the supersonic part of your career. And we all know,

(58:27):
any of us who have survived more than six months
in this business know that that comes and it goes.
It comes and it goes, and it's quite a fucking ride,
and that's part of the fun. Yeah, but I want
there was a point in my life where I went
I was walking Across'll tell you what it was. Actually,
I was walking across the tarmac to an airplane that
I owned, and I thought.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
You know what, I don't think this is for me.
I don't think this is right.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
I don't think this is I don't think this is
as cool as I thought it was going to be.
I think that I think sixteen year old me would
be impressed. But I'm fucking fifty two and this is
not cool.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
See. This is why I love you, because you're the
only person I've ever heard say that kind of stuff
to me. Because I feel a wee bit like that,
And in fact, I was just talking about this yesterday,
when we were at the peak of our height of success.
I was embarrassed because I thought my teenage self would
think I was a fucking RS piece. It's cheesy, Like

(59:28):
I felt like all these the whole sort of hysteria
that surrounded success, like all of a sudden, tabloid photographers.
You know, we're taking my photographs at airports, and I
was like breaking up with my husband and there was
somebody taking our photographs really distressing and vile, and I
was just like, this is so uncool and so awful
and dehumanizing, and I just don't admire it. I wish

(59:50):
I did admire it more, but I don't. Like I
don't sit and look at a lot of these celebrities
and go, wow, you're so cool. No, none of them,
almost non of them. There's a few that managed to
carry it off, sure, but for the most part, it
is like, oh, it's funny going on here.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
No, I totally get it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
I think that there was Once I got a phone
call from Steve Jones, the guitarist, Yes Pistols, right, So
Jones calls me you. I've known jonesy for years, and
the Pistols were getting back together to do this. They
were doing this shown at the Roxy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
I think it was. This is a few years ago,
like maybe fifteen years ago or something to ten or fifteen.

Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
I remember this actually, and Minus said, obviously.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
Right, Minus said, but Matt Locke was doing it. So
they were getting back together and Jonesy called up said
would you you come and introduce it? And now sixteen
year old May, that's like getting a call.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
From God, Yeah, that's incredible.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
But I couldn't do it because I was doing a
corporate gig for T Mobile and lesbigas.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
Oh god.

Speaker 3 (01:00:57):
I remember when I was going out to talk to
the the night of the show.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
I'm doing the corporate kick for T Mobile in Las
Vegas and I'm walking out. There's all these guys in
this and I can smell the fucking shitty lobster in
the room and I have a It's fucking horrendous, and
I felt awful about it, and I was like, just
what the fuck happened to me?

Speaker 3 (01:01:19):
Man?

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
I spoke to Jon about it a couple of weeks later,
and he went, it's.

Speaker 3 (01:01:23):
Just what we was doing. We're doing it for the
fucking money.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
I went, oh, yeah, I suppose so and he let
me off the hook.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
It's a good story. He still got the good story out. Yeah,
I got that.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Highlights it right, Yeah, a little bit.

Speaker 3 (01:01:36):
That to me, it completely explains the discomfort of realizing,
like this is just not who I want to be.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
But none of that ship matters. What matters is is
the feeling you get when you hear the fucking amschoo
and you fucking walk out and the audience is there
and you know what you can do and I've seen
you fucking do it, and you walk out and you
fucking get a my in your hand and here we go,
here we go, and here we fucking go, and that's

(01:02:04):
the ride and everything else it's fucking gravy. It's it's
sugar sprinkles.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
Strangely, the thing I love the most is being in
my dressing room and you can hear the crowd. Yeah,
that's my favorite moment. Like yeah, like it doesn't get
better than that. Like for me, that's it. It's like
the anticipation and that excitement you hear them all speaking
and laughing and shouting. I don't know, I just love that.
I totally understand that.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
I have a memory of doing a gig in la,
which I love you for and I will always love
you for. Because I was going out, I was playing
the Ace Hotel.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
I remember it well.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
I was doing I remember because I was in that
you have a laugh, that's this thing you were going to. No, no,
it's not even about the laugh. It's not even about
the laugh. It's before it. What I did was I
remember the intro music I had at the Ace Theater
was the Cramps playing Let's Get Fucked Up. And it
starts off with the drums going like that, just fucking

(01:03:02):
rolls out like that. And I heard you going, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:07):
The audience, I heard your voice that would fucking right, fucking.

Speaker 3 (01:03:12):
Right, here we go, here we go. And it is that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
It's that there's like everything falls away in those moments
of performance. I think everything falls away, and the planes
and the money and the fucking and the paparazzi photographers
and the resentments and the fear and everything fucking disappears.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
And that's that's why I do it, and I think
that's why you do it. Yeah, I think so. Although
I've never had a personal plane, I would quite like one.
I must have been.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
Yeah, you'd be surprised. I would quite like you'd be surprised.
You'd be surprised.

Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
I totally understand what you're saying, and I love you
for that. I think I can I can find that
talk to you. I understand it must be weird, so weird,
but I mean, you've had such a insane career and
you've seen things that's a few people have, you know,
and like you talk about these massive you know, like
you say, you're on late night TV. That's huge. I
don't really get much bigger than that in America. Yeah,

(01:04:08):
I mean it's weird.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
I remember talking to somebody.

Speaker 2 (01:04:10):
I was talking to somebody about this the other day
because they were talking about how I left, and I said, yeah,
but because I didn't, you know, it wasn't a thing
to me. And this if you look at the people
who have left, like after shortagh period of the time
I left, James Corden left, Trevor Noah left. We're not
from here. John Oliver left, We're not from here. So
we didn't grow up with that. Johnny Carson is the

(01:04:33):
way you have to be. It's like it's a gig
and you do a tough gig. Yeah, it's a lot
of tough. It's a concept help. Yeah, but it's you know,
it's Rick Wakeman Journey to the Center of the Earth.
It's the full Cape and Orchestra.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
And you're being self depreciating. But to be fair, that
is a tough gig, you know, is it?

Speaker 1 (01:04:51):
Though?

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
It's tough, Like you're cleaning floors for a living. That's
a tough that's a tough job. Or you know, you're
a nurse. That's a tough job. But but that's not
to say that what you do in these positions is
not I don't know, it's exhausting.

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
I would imagine it is exhausting. It's emotionally exhausting and
I and that is true.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
But being an intellectually you have to be intellectually awake,
you know, every night.

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
Yeah, that's a lot, it is. It's a lot, but
it's I didn't do it for I did it for
ten years. That's that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:21):
Well, that's a long time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
It's long enough for me.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
Yeah, yeah, And do you I mean, surely when maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
My podcast early I meant to ask you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
I know, but I haven't seen you in so long.
I'm dying to ask questions when you decided to leave?
And you know, because I can remember thinking Wow, he's
going to go back to Scotland. That's intense because it's
like coming off an escalator. Yeah yeah, so for a
while you're moving at the same speed as it's challenging.
So what was like what happened? Like I'm assuming you

(01:05:53):
were just moving moving? You got that incredible house, which
I don't think i'll ever forget, was so beautiful, and
you have this amazing lie, and you had chickens and
a really domesticated, beautiful life. I still have that, of course,
I know you do. But at some point there must
have been the jolt when you get off the escalator
of like, whoa, what the hell? Like, where do I

(01:06:14):
put all my energy, my talents, my do you know
what I mean? You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
I do.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
That's why I built a fucking church, you know. I mean,
it's it's like you you have to put it somewhere.
But also, I don't know if you've experienced this, there
was a point where I became discouraged, of course, just
with everything. Yeah, I was burnt out and it was
after late night and I've just discouraged. I didn't know

(01:06:40):
why I made some TV shows I probably shouldn't have
made it. You know, I wrote a book, which I'm
proud of, but there was Yeah, it was a change
of pace.

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
It was difficult.

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
Did you never experience that? Absolutely experienced experience it just
around about our fourth record and we couldn't put food right,
you know, And and that happens to musicians all the time,
but when it happens to you, you're just like, I
literally thought, this is the end of the world. And
I am forty years old. I was forty and I

(01:07:11):
will never get back up on that pony because they
don't let women back on the pony. And then enough
years past, my mom died and we had been on
hiatus for about five years, which is a long time.
I was on a TV show, I played a tour right,
and that kind of kept me busy for a while
and brought in the excitement that was used to as
a musician. But then that came to an end and
my mum died, and then I was like, all right,

(01:07:32):
what now? And I just went to Coachella one year
and I was looking at the everything and thinking, what
they're fussing about this band? And I'm sitting here rotting
on my couch. No longer will this be the case,
and I just called the band up and I was
basically sort of like, come on, let's let's work just
for the sake of working. Doesn't matter. If it's not

(01:07:52):
top ten, doesn't matter, you know. If we don't sell
a million records, who cares? As long as we enjoy
doing the pursuit of what it was that we fell
in love with.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
And that's when you become Keith Rechards.

Speaker 3 (01:08:04):
Well, that's when you're Yeah, you're freed and you've never
been before.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
You're free because they don't know you. Ye, And that's
what I think the truth is.

Speaker 3 (01:08:14):
Look, I'm sixty fucking years old, but you look good.

Speaker 2 (01:08:19):
But here's the thing. I'm sixty years old. It's not
whatever fucking way you cut it. It's not the first day.
And this is I've said this to audiences and I
mean it like I'll go out and say to an audience, Look,
I've done a lot of shows, and I've fucking won
of wars, and I've made a lot of money and
I'll be very successful. So if this show sucks tonight,
it's fucking you. It's like that, Yeah, and it's true.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
That's brilliant. You know, the evidence is good at what
I do. You want to have a good time. That's great,
fucking relaxed that he's got it. Yeah, you know, I
mean it's.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
It's I can do this.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
I love that, and I love that and I'm cool.

Speaker 1 (01:08:55):
I mean it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:56):
Do you feel that when you work out? But I've
never vocalized it as well as you just have sing it. Yeah,
it's so good. It's a really nice feeling. And I
guess that's why when I do do shows now and
I walk out and people you can and you see
them immediately, right. You can look into a massive audience
and go, well, there's the cunt that hates me, and
it's only here because his girlfriend wants to be and

(01:09:17):
blah blah blah. Yeah, and for some reason, you can
really focus on singular people. I don't think audiences understand that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
Oh yeah, you see them.

Speaker 3 (01:09:25):
They don't think you're looking at them. And you see
all kinds of things going on. People picking their nose,
you know, looking at their phones, you know whatever. Oh
he's off to the bar to get a drink. I mean,
you catch it all. It's really wild. But now it
used to bother me when people won't pay attention and
not appreciate what we were doing. And now it's just
I said earlier, it's just sort of like everything's good.

(01:09:47):
We've got this'rye.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
You are the joy.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
You are a joy, Craig Ferguson, is so great to
see you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:53):
Thank thank you for on your podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
You're welcome.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Problem.

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
Have I see me in it again next time?

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
Yeah? Not all befo