September 23, 2021 • 45 mins
On making a career out of your passion and finding your voice
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
We have to go into the fact that I did
a zoom from my daughter's school and the pronouns conversation
with each teacher, each parent, each child, and my daughter
says in school too that everybody has to say their pronouns.
So and my daughter don't even know what hers were.
And I can't even blame you. I know what I
(00:34):
am or what I think I am, but like I
never have said it out loud, I don't. It hasn't
come up for me. And so she didn't know. She
said someone exactly had to say it, someone said it
before her, because someone's parents definitely told them. So there
are these crazy stories about these camps. This summer summer
Camp went fucking crazy this summer. So either it was
the pandemic or everybody meaning everybody being politically correct, it
(00:59):
was the pandemic or politically correctness, or it just happened
to be the craziest year in camp history. So my
daughter doesn't go to camp in the Hampton's Um. I
canceled for this too. It's a primarily Jewish sport. This
send your kid away for the whole summer to camp.
It's a primary it's it's people other people go to camps,
but like people looking at you like something's sucking wrong
(01:20):
with you that your kids? Where is she going this summer?
And I'm like, I can't, mommy, what I can't wait
to ship my kids off of the whole. So what
I guess you can't, mommy. We go weakeboarding, we go surfing.
This is a very very revolutionary, drastic And he's laughing
because and he works for your Jewish Annie, And right,
you go to camp? Annie, Yeah, a teeniorsot to camp.
(01:42):
Did you has you ever met a Jew that is
of some means that hasn't got that has not other
kids going to camp? Never? No, it's just like it's
a Jewish. It's weird. People think, yeah, right, So the
fact that my mother, they'll think it's genetic. My mother
came from a Catholic family and converted. And I'm not religious,
but people, you know, if you're Jewish, it's just it's
(02:03):
a write of passage. Okay. So all the Jews in
the Hampton's are on this like list than email list.
It's either like a thread or they all are on
some chain and people are on there who their kids
don't even go to these camps. But like every jew
emails each other and knows about what's going on all
the camps. And there are different ones, like there's one
called Racket Lake and one that was called like Tyler Hill.
(02:25):
Are they still all around? Which one did you get
when knock trails? And these are like brand these are
brand names. Is I just had like Louis Uttan product Gucci?
These are like brand name KM one was like tennis something.
So this summer, these these these emails were flying. Okay.
One of the emails said that, And some of it's
just gossip because there's a lot of liability, so the
(02:47):
parents are putting it on their own emails. It's not
like a blast from Camp Central. This is like parents
emailing each other. So the first story, and these are
all true stories. It's they've all been vetted. There are
all the all the camps are freaking out. The first story.
One one issue that occurred was it's an all girls
camp and a person with a penis who identifies as
(03:09):
being a girl went to the camp and was in
the bunk with the girls, and the girls saw her.
Because it's hard because it's a it's a it's a
male anatomy. But in identifying as a woman. So the
so the girl other girls saw a penis and they're like,
(03:30):
you know, years old. So the parents obviously or not obviously,
But then why could you see a vagina? I don't know. Okay,
so the parents obviously weren't that um happy. And then
and I don't know why this is different because I
don't we hadn't heard about it that much. But this
girl with with a penis was making out with a
(03:52):
lot of the different girls at the camp. So that
was the first story that happened, like things you don't
necessarily think of. Okay, A separate story just about crazy
camp stuff. Was there was somebody that having nothing to
do with sexuality, was it was? It was it was
a tickler, like tickling all the different kids, and that
person got sent home. And then there was one where
there was like a hole in the bunk and they
were there was a peaker. And then this is my
(04:15):
personal favorite, So they send home emails when you're at
camp and they say, um, you know, we did a
camp a bonfire that you know, color war. Everything's going great,
this happened, we all had this experience. This happened, the
other thing happened, etcetera, and yeah, and by the and also, um,
three of the kids went out to go get wood
for the bonfire and they came upon a dead body.
(04:38):
So in one of the camps there was like an
engineer or somebody that took their own life very very
sad obviously, and three of the kids went in like
stand by me fashion and found a body. So camp
was lit this summer. But it's an interesting conversation about
(04:58):
a girl a female anatomy being in a male anatomy
bunk or vice versa. Okay, so that's a conversation. And
they're talking a lot about sports now, and how is
it fair if you're on a team and somebody with
a male anatomy who identifies as being a woman is playing,
And is that fair? And how can you balance out
(05:19):
a lot of people, don't you know? Because there are
I think there's um like studies that the least uh
proficient male is still often stronger or vest or what
have you male anatomy than the most proficient female. I said,
what they can maybe um level the playing field, like
(05:40):
find somebody to be in that same situation to play
on the other side, or some way to do it,
or you know, there's way there are ways too great
on a curve or things like that. So what about
that conversation? And then you know, I was thinking the
other day about this is to be honest, I have um,
I have a mail driver, and I was thinking, and
my girl up, my assistance will sometimes if I have
(06:00):
to go run and do something, they'll stay with Brenn
for a minute, or they'll meet her downstairs when she
does a transfer back from her dad. Um, I don't know.
I don't have a nanny. I've never had a nanny,
so you know, and I don't never scared. I've never
had a babysitter either, So people around me will help me.
And um my driver will drive bryn to school sometimes
or back to her dad's uh without me in the car.
(06:21):
So I was thinking the other day about, and this
has been in the past two if Albie was a driver,
we had the Britain love. She loves all DEMI driver.
So I was thinking about if I was going out
one night and if he could stay with her if
I had to just run and go do something. And
I thought, well, my ex might say something, would say
something like, oh, she shouldn't be because he said in
the past wouldn't shouldn't be alone with you know, quote
(06:42):
unquote a strange man or you know, but then why
can she be alone with a woman? Like that's something
no one really talks about. And that happens also in
office is where men my Dennis, my ex fiance, has
a rule that he wouldn't be in an office alone
with a woman if the door weren't open because of
me too and all that stuff, and people say that
(07:03):
about elevators. But now it's gonna to change just to
be a person. Why why is it just a woman?
Because that's sexist to say that. God, a man could
be with my daughter, but not a woman. Right, So
that's one interesting thing that's crazy. And then you know,
everybody's giving their pronouns and the next thing you know
that's gonna be you're gonna be like, I don't I
don't pronoun I don't I I don't want to tell
(07:26):
you that that's it's private information. Like everything is so
rule based and people don't know exactly how to follow
the rules that you know, anything could you could say
anything too though you could say, and this is the
controversial conversation, I'm fully okay with it, but you could say,
I don't want to say my sexuality, that's not relevant
to anything. Why does that have to be something that
(07:47):
we tell everybody? Um also, you know with the bathrooms
at schools changing and all that, which is great. But
the truth the thing, the interesting thing about this is
the age when so my daughter's age, what happens if
there's a child who isn't ready to make that decision?
So don't a lot of girls in college or not
(08:09):
even a college, high school college, don't a lot of
girls in college have a lesbian phase but then they
realize that they're not. Maybe they're going through something, maybe
they want attention, maybe they go through a bad a
bad breakup. And how what is the age that someone's
absolutely positive who they are? There's got to be gray area,
Meaning there are some children that know exactly who they are.
They identify as a boy, they identify as a girl,
(08:31):
they may have male anatomy, they their parents know for sure.
But then aren't there some kids that in high school
and college make that decision. And I've heard literally hard
of situations where then they sort of unmake that decision. So,
if you're a person who's for a period of time
identifying with being a girl and you're a boy, and
(08:54):
then you know, you decide to switch that back. I
mean you're not going through any sort of surgery in
that case what I'm talking about, But I just mean
you're more comfortable like that, and then you decide to
switch back, Like, what does that mean for that camp?
What does that mean for that bunk that there's a
person with a penis and maybe a mother isn't ready
for her child to see a penis in the bunk
(09:15):
and understand that the person identifies as being um a girl.
Because my daughter understands all of this. I mean she's
you know, it's amazing. They have different language, different understandings.
But she's also hasn't seen a penis, you know, and
so in a camp she would have would see girl parts.
So I just think these conversations are also fluid. So
(09:35):
I want to hear what you guys all think. What
do you think you you all on the on this
on this podcast, my team, my producers, did I explain
all that right? It was a confusing or like, explain
my feelings right that I seem like I have any specific,
uh point of view on it, because I it's just
a conversation. I don't actually necessarily, I just we was
talking about it at dinner last night. Yeah, it definitely
(09:57):
seems like you are more opening the converse station and
then coming in with a strong point of view on
what you think. The the answers are necessarily Yeah, what
do you think? What do you think about it? Um?
You know, I'm very active in trans inclusion in sports
and things like that. I think, especially at young ages,
you know, inclusion is all that really matters as far
as helping young people be fully fulfilled UM versus winning. Yeah, definitely.
(10:23):
You know, building billion a child's morale is going to
be the most important thing over the team winning because
they feel like there's an advantage. There's also a very
uh like a lot of those studies, like there's not
a ton of studies to prove that especially at young ages,
kids have that much of an advantage based on anatomy
at that point. Okay, so what about when they what
about older? What about high school? When people are what
(10:47):
about when they're drafting kids for like you know, like
Friday night lights stuff for football and matt it matters
what colleges think and the winning and losing do do matter?
So what do you think about my idea of you know,
grading on a car car EV which is crazy for
like professional sports, or stack the deck so that there's
a situation where both teams, but you can't control that,
(11:08):
I guess because you can't control other schools do It's
I think it's a complicated issue. You have to admit
that now, Yeah, definitely. I mean I think a large
for the conversation too, is like what is an advantage?
You know, like people bring up Michael Phelps a lot
um is height in basketball and advantage. So it's like, okay, sorry,
you're too tall to place. Okay, I like that. So
it's kind of like, what, what's even an advantage? So
(11:30):
that's kind of a conversation that I've seen around it
a lot interesting what is an advantage? Well, but there
are differences between men and women, even they say in
left and right brain, I mean, there are physical differences.
We can't say that every single thing is going to
be exactly the same, do you know what I mean? Totally?
So then it's like that kind of opens up in
what is competition? Like, what's the goal of competition if
(11:51):
there's always gonna be some advantage somewhere. Then I understand
that's a very interesting thing. What if you're smarter and
you're just smartest, you have better tagtical decision making on
a field. I get why it's such a What do
you think about the the the bunk A male anatomy
person in that bunk. Yeah, it's interesting because, like you said,
(12:12):
some of the parents are freaking out, but it sounds
like your daughter like kind of knew the words and
kind of was like familiar already. So I'm wondering how
much do you feel like it's parents overreacting in their
kids behalf but they're kind of ready for those conversations,
or do you feel like not they're not ready? I
mean no, because because because a penis often goes into
(12:33):
a vagina, I think so they might not want that
sort of you know, visual so that soon, you know
what I mean, like that idea, I think, I mean,
it's it's super it's it's it's changing a whole construct
of how people think. So if somebody identifies as being
a girl and is in a bunk and has a penis,
(12:55):
I think I understand why it's going to be jarring,
But I also under stand how much turmoil for that
poor child who is going to have to feel that
like they don't know where they belong. That is horrible,
like that feeling, you know what I mean. So that's
the point everyone. They have to have a place to
go to go to the bathroom and feel safe and comfortable.
That just has to be a discussion. And what if
(13:18):
there are no other kids in that situation. I guess
if I I were a parent, I would want my
child to go to another camp where there were kids
in the same situation, or I would do Camp Mommy
like I do, Like I would not every you know
what I mean, Not every situation is set up to
make somebody thrive. I mean, I know people who won't
send their children to really very athletic schools because they're
(13:41):
a little more quote unquote alt or quote unquote you know, nerdy,
like whatever that word means, you know what I'm saying,
but like just not not jocks. So they're not going
to send them to these schools that are primarily jocks
because they're not gonna They're gonna set them up for
not feeling safe and successful. So I think parents have
to do the job of making your kid feel safe.
(14:02):
You can't just put you can't just because you can't
make every situation fit. I think that I think that's
what I think. I think I would. I'm always going
to try to set up my daughter for where she's
going to thrive. And I don't think I like that
the camp. But the camp didn't think it through. I
guess if that ever happened, I don't know. Maybe they
didn't think someone would see their anatomy and then that
(14:23):
would be the thing. I guess that's the rule. No
one shows their anatomy females or or males. That one
was a counselor. The counselor was identified as being a girl. Oh,
I did hear that. I'm mixing the two stories. Okay,
so that was a point of a camper too, because
it could happen. Yeah, that could happen for a camper.
But that's true. It was a counselor, but it was
this There was also, I'm not the counselor. The kid
(14:47):
was a male anatomy child making out with female anatomy child.
That was the thing the parents were writing about. But
then separately, there was a counselor that was in the
girls um bunk and and they saw the counselor's anatomies,
and now that's an older counselor, so then that's like
sort of that's that's a problem, Like that's that's not okay.
(15:09):
So it's very interesting. It's a very interesting conversation. And
I feel like that would be where no one can
no one's allowed to show their anatomy. It doesn't matter
what you identify as or who you identify as. Candice
Bushnell is my guest today. She is an international best
(15:31):
selling author with three TV shows based on her work,
including of Course, Sex and the City. She's been writing
professionally since she was just nineteen and talks to me
about the passion it takes to make it as a writer.
We discussed New York and how it's shaped our lives
and her work, and what drove her to write and
star in her new one person show, Is There Still
Sex in the City. She's so fascinating, so honest, so
(15:55):
new York and so real. I know you're going to
love this one. So you grew up in Connecticut? Correct, Yes, okay,
I did, but you know I came to New York
when I was actually eighteen. I pretty much I did,
but a lot of people do I ran away from college?
(16:17):
Did you um come from humble means middle class? What
was the financial situation in your home? It was a
middle class family, you know in Connecticut, the suburbs. You know,
I think the people felt that, you know, in those
days middle class, A lot of middle class people felt
like they were upper middle class. You know, there was
(16:39):
a lot less income disparity back then. It kind of
felt like everybody was the same. I mean we didn't
have you know, there weren't people who were like living
in mansions. There were people who had family money. Um.
But because I didn't grow up in Greenwich or a
place like that where people were working in New York City,
(17:02):
it kind of felt like everybody was pretty much the same.
You know, everybody wore eesa left cost shirts. It was
a very losty old New England town um where people
really valued being Yankees. You know, everybody was modest. You
don't talk about money. It was considered very declasse to
(17:23):
talk about money. So it doesn't sound like you wanted
for anything. But there were definitely dreams of aspiration, meaning
there was definitely some place to go to sore So
what was your parents were together? Yes, until my mother died.
Oh wow, okay, So did they instill in you a
(17:44):
work ethic? What was the relationship to success and work
and striving in your house? I think the one thing
that my parents never I had two younger sisters and
they never you know, they never talked about getting married
and having kids. That was something that that you know,
(18:06):
I wasn't talked about. It wasn't encouraged. We didn't know
how to I have two younger sisters, no brothers. I
don't even think I really talked to a guy until
I went to college, so I have a very little
experienced with men. My father was a genius, invented the
(18:28):
fuel cell the east in the first of follow space rocket,
So being smart was really really important somehow, you know.
There was a lot of pressure to do something, but
no instructions on how to do it, no help on
how to do it. It was really about you know,
(18:49):
in those days, I remember my father saying, you know,
when you turn it too and you're gonna be cut off.
So if you want to figure out a good way
for your for your kids run away from college, tell
them they're getting cut off at a team. So they
were very much instilling a work ethic and don't rely
on a man, which is so interesting to me because
of your trajectory. That's why I asked these questions because
(19:12):
often people who are now successful, raising our kids is
more challenging than we didn't have anything. Um, So you're
saying that that was really instilled, and that's come through
in your work completely. Like, does not seem like you
ever really even thought about a man rescuing you, saving you,
being your prince charming. It seems like you wanted to
do it on your own. I did. It's a lot
(19:32):
harder to do it on your own, do you know
very well? But very few women have made the kind
of money you've made. Very few. Is it harder? I
think it would have been harder to meet someone and
wait for them to give me what I wanted and
have to ask permission and have someone else control the
purse strings. That's something I've never even understood. How you
(19:53):
do that? That's the problem. I mean, that's the problem.
It's like, I mean, you know, you live, you've lived
in New York. You know there's a whole you know,
there's a huge group of women who come to New
York who were looking for the rich husband, And I mean,
if you're looking for rich husband, New York is one
of the places you come, and they know how to
(20:17):
manage that negotiate that they're pros. But I do see,
you know, I mean, I see women who have been
married to very rich men end up with you know,
five million dollars, twenty millions. I understand what you're saying,
but I think if you marry for money, you pay
for the rest of your life in some way. So
(20:38):
that's just a concept. I totally agree. You are married
for how many years now, I'm divorced. I was married
for ten years, so I I consider that to be
(21:01):
a successful relationship. I do too. I mean, I think,
you know, there's all different kinds of successful relationships. And
I mean, you know, as time goes on, I think,
you know, some relationships are just not meant to last forever.
And I think that, you know, as people live longer,
(21:22):
they're gonna be sections of time when you know you're
with someone, you maybe with somebody who you raise a
child with, and then you don't stay together, and then
maybe you're with somebody else. So I think we're gonna
have different stages in our lives as women. There will
be times when you're gonna be single. That's a construct.
So it's interesting you just are talking about something that
(21:43):
doesn't have to be bad. It could still have been
a successful relationship. It just was gonna devolve based on
who you both were becoming or became, is what I
think you're saying, right, you know, and it also depends on,
you know, where people are in their lives. My husband
was ten years younger, and you know, I mean when
my mother died. These kinds of things can really change
(22:07):
relationships too. You know, if there's an emotional blow and
you know, one person can kind of lose their footing,
and sometimes the other person is just not emotionally and
psychically able to help them through that because it takes
a lot, It takes a lot of It takes a lot,
(22:29):
you know, I think, you know, I think that being
married takes a lot of emotional maturity, probably more than
most people have. You know. Then on top of that,
having a child, you know, you need to grown ups
in a relationship, I think, to have to raise a child,
and often you've got one, usually the woman. That's so
(22:53):
interesting what you're saying. It's true, both people have to
be really up to the task. Not everybody based on
what we all come into this life with our own
baggage or own family, our own history. Not everybody's always
up to the task. Not everybody wants to workshop everything.
You have to work it, and not evon always wants
to work. Sometimes people just you know, give up and
let go of the rope. I think that's interesting, and
it doesn't mean it's a failure. I mean that's I
(23:14):
think that's very interesting. So what is your writing process
and how has it changed? Well, first of all, I
started writing professionally when I was nineteen. I'm completely mystified
by you know, people who say like, oh, I want
to write a book, and I've never written a book before,
you know, I mean, to me, writing is a very
different thing. To me, writing is like being an actress.
(23:37):
It's like being a violentist. It's that's who you are.
It's something that you're born doing. It's something that it
comes deep within. And when I was younger, I really
felt like I am going to die if I am
not a writer. Less than that, people with less passion
than that is like, I don't really get it. Why
(24:00):
would you want to write a book. I'm just for money?
I guess writing is not a money making thing. That's
what I don't understand. It's really it's a passion and
it's something that you feel like if you don't do it,
you're gonna die. And that was pretty much how I
felt all through, you know. I mean, I knew I
(24:22):
was going to be a writer when I was eight,
and that's really what carried me through, you know, my twenties,
not making any money, really struggling writing for women's magazines.
I mean, now that I'm doing the show, I just
I think, you know, there's just so many easier ways
(24:42):
to make money, like probably being an actor, right, you know,
I mean, writing a book is lonely, it's tedious, it's
extremely time consuming. You know. For me, when I'm writing
a book, I'm writing, I might write ten pages a day.
I am not seeing anybody for about ten days, and
(25:05):
I have a really, really disciplined schedule, so it's you know,
it's not a side job for me. You have to
not only be a person who wants to be a
writer and knows how to express themselves and feel, but
who also is grammatically able, because nobody I know can
(25:26):
write an email, nobody can spell, and nobody can communicate.
I mean, I I correct everybody's everything. So that's the
only reason probably that I can write books, because if
I have a thought, I can communicate it in a
very streamlined way. But it's not in your god given
talent way, in my opinion, So I'm find that very
interesting what you're talking about, your natural boy. I don't.
(25:46):
I don't. I mean, I'm right, because I find human
beings fascinating and all. And it's like, I'm kind of
like a medium. I have been ever since I was
a kid. I can really get into people's heads and
like feel what they're feeling. And you know, I don't
(26:12):
write a book because I'm trying to get a message
across you. Because this is fiction too. It's not like
a prescriptive. It's fiction. It's fantasy. I'm creating characters and
then I'm following the characters. The characters take over. You know.
It's it's it's it's a work of imagination, and it's
(26:34):
really about being in your head and literally being in
a different world, like being in this world, but really
being in the world in your head and capturing that.
It's a very different thing. And you read a lot.
I used to. I mean that, you know. That's the
(26:56):
other aspect of this is that I used to read
a ton. Now I feel like I'm just addicted to
my goddamn phone. If you're not reading, you're probably writing, right,
I mean, right now I'm not writing because I'm working
on the One woman show. Is there's still sex in
the city. Um, Normally I'm writing six days a week
(27:18):
and probably for five or six hours a day. Um.
That is a discipline. It's disciplined. That is a discipline.
That's amazing. It doesn't give you time for a lot
of other things. And you know, I mean I gave
up going out a lot too. Sounds satisfying though, And
the pandemic was probably the craziest time of your whole life,
(27:40):
like you probably probably poured out of you. Everybody's life
during the pandemic was pretty much my life all the time,
you know, not going out, not seeing a lot of
people working at home, not putting on the TV. But
it was such an unsettled time that I wasn't exactly
(28:01):
sure what to write about your success when it popped off,
Like what tell me about that story you were doing
what you couldn't pay your rent? Like what was that arc. Like,
I think what it's really about is finding your voice
and finding your style, what you write about, your point
(28:23):
of view, how you look at the world, and then
being able to take what's in your head and get
that onto the page. That's really the hardest part. It's like,
you know, it's like playing an instrument. It's like playing
the violin. You know, at first you practice everybody else's music,
(28:43):
and you know, you learn how to actually do it
put words together. So from all of my twenties, I
was really writing the precursors in a sense of what
would become Sex in the City. Okay, I was writing
about women in New York, women, my friends, me, our relationships, society.
(29:11):
What's it like as a you know, woman with the
pressures to have a career, find a relationship. And you know,
I just kept doing it, and eventually it's like the
outside world kind of intersected with my ambitions. You know.
I got an opportunity to albacolumn in the New York Observer,
(29:35):
and I knew exactly what to do because I've been
doing it for so long. And so then you get
yourself in the right place at the right time, and
you become successful. Maybe if I had written you know,
if I had different breaks, uh, when I was in
(29:56):
my twenties, if I come from a wealthy family that
accorded me where I could just have written books. When
I was nineteen, I wrote a children's book. Um, and
I thought, I am just gonna write novels. And but
you can't do that unless you have family money, unless
(30:16):
you have the right connections, unless you went to an
Ivy League school. Uh. You know, all of that stuff
takes connections, and I didn't have any connections. Did you
get really into it? You're like, oh my god, this
is it. I'm I'm somebody. I mean, it doesn't sound
like you were like that, but were you like that?
You know, it might be that I've always felt like
(30:37):
I am somebody. Um, I think you know, New York
is definitely a place where people come to make it,
and I definitely came here to make it and hopefully
to be who I was supposed to be, and know
I'm who I am supposed to be. But in terms
(30:58):
of you know, look, New York is a place. It's
all about status and it's all about pecking order. We
see that at the met Ball Who's going who isn't
I went once when I was with the real Mr
big Um, And you know, New York is that's what
(31:18):
it's about. Do you care? Do you care that you
didn't go to the met Ball? Not really? Do you know?
Like yes, in a sense that I would love to
see if I could do it and nail it and
land it. But that's just who I am as a
person as just for myself, nothing to do with I
don't care what people think of me. I don't care
about the press or any of that stuff. That's just
not me. And you know, and New York is a
(31:39):
place where you know, there's certain you know, people that
you can hang out with and be a part of
if you want to adopt the same kind of attitudes
that they have. And it's like, you know, I mean,
I've been in situations where people are like, oh, if
you start up to this person, you know they can
(31:59):
do your lot of favors. It's like, I'm not sucking
up to anybody. That's truly what you just said is
really the real New York. What you were talking about
is the bullshit New York and most of those people
the Emperor has no clothes when you meet them there morons,
they're crazy, they're whack jobs, they're just all image. They're frosting.
There's no cake like And that's one of the realities
(32:20):
about New York. I mean, they're just I mean, there's
so many decisions and people do so many things that
are just horrible and it's just business. And so you
really have to have a tough skin here. And you know,
there's certain people who it's like, Okay, they're famous or whatever,
but do you really want to hang out with them.
(32:40):
It's nice to have arrived so you don't have to
go anywhere anymore. But now maybe because it's after the
pandemic or whatever, but now I'm like, I want to
go out. It's so funny me too. That's why I
last night, look because you want to get dressed up
and do something and I'm not like that at all.
That's exactly it. And you know, I mean, that's really
one of the reasons why I'm doing the show at
the Darryll Row Theater is it's like coming to my
(33:03):
living room. It's like gathering a whole bunch of girlfriends.
I'm with your girlfriends. We're gonna have a good time.
And I feel like That's that's what I'm really looking for.
I love that. Okay, well I love that. Um what
do you think about in your city? What do you
think about New York? Do you still have this love
(33:24):
affair with New York? Do you love it the same
way you always did? I mean, as one gets older
and one matures, certain things fall away. Um. You know,
when I was younger, everything is so magnified. Every little
detail is so important. When you get older, you can't
even see that. Well, you know, I can't even tell
(33:46):
the difference between a fake Chanelle bag in a real one.
You know why haven't so I don't care. But you're young.
It's like you're you know, having the right hand bag
is so important, and and you know, going to the
right parties and getting in and you know, also I
was in New York when in the late seventies went
(34:08):
Studio fifty four, the eighties, the nineties. New York was
all about going out, I know. And that was part
of business too. That was business to succeeding at that
and it was the theater of New York. It was
the you know, you go to a restaurant, you see
four people you know, and you you know, your your
(34:31):
your network, and and you know, it was that excitement
of things are happening all the time. And but that's
how it is when you're young. Now, is that Williamsburg
Brooklyn with you know, twentysomethings were going out to clubs?
It probably is. Is it gonna happen being a six
(34:54):
year old woman? I don't know what it is when
you have no hormones. You look at the world differently, right,
that it's much better. Actually, that's very very funny. But
so I think it's more about a mastery. But you know,
I do still love New York. It doesn't feel like
(35:16):
it's as exciting as it used to be. But that
could just be because of my age. I don't think so.
I know, I think about that sing. I think she's
taken a hit. I mean, like to me, I mean,
one of the problems with New York is, let's face it,
it's the income disparity because and the other thing is,
(35:37):
for instance, like in the you know, in the building
that I live in, the building I live in, Dorothy
Parker used to live here. It used to be all
one bedrooms, and it used to be you know a
lot of single women. Now people have taken all of
these apartments and then combine them because they have kids
(35:59):
and so there are astronomical maintenances. The prices of the
apartments are you know, five times what they should be,
and who can afford that. The only person you can
afford that is another hedge funder with a family, So
you know, just that itself. You know, it changes the
(36:20):
dynamics of the city because where are you know, the
city used to be filled with single people. Yeah, but
online dating has changed that a lot too. I've heard
men say that they won't walk up to a woman
in a restaurant or a bar and just cold because
if she's with a girlfriend, because they will think if
she wanted to be out with a guy, she would
be on an online date. Every girl. Every night. Your
(36:43):
show would be a totally different show. Every night you
could go get a different online date, the one where
you just box someone, the one where someone is Jewish,
the one you want to marry someone, the one you
want to go on three dates, tell a storytell a joke,
you have something in common, some weird fetish. I mean,
you choose your adventure. So that's why people don't have
to go out and it's not that interaction and that
social jungle. It used to be, yes, except that everybody
(37:05):
I talked to you goes online all the time. Hate.
I met my fiance online, and like he's Prince Charming. Literally,
he's like the real life Prince Charming. And you have
to treat it like you have to do it like
a business too. You can't just be like flippant about it.
So you know what's important to you, you know it's
not important to you, and you know what's a deal breaker,
what's non negotiable. And it's amazing. And I can't what
(37:27):
I'm saying that because I was the last one to
do it, the last except for you. I was like,
there's no way, it's not for me. And I got
into it and like I literally met Prince Charming. I
know so many people who have met somebody online dating,
and you know, they do the same thing. They really
treat it like a job. But the only thing that
(37:49):
I've noticed, but you know what it's like, online dating
is like offline dating. You know, if you have if
you're good at certain things, you know, being able to
make a conversation, shan having self confidence, you're gonna do
well dating online or offline. Yeah, are you vain? I
(38:23):
don't think so. Now you don't care about age and
plastic surgery per se, or you don't think about it
a lot, like well, I feel like I should get
plastic surgery. I do not think based on looking at you,
I didn't know you've had it or haven't had it,
you definitely should not get plastic surgery. I haven't had any,
but I feel like I want to. But I also
(38:45):
feel like it don't really have the guts. I feel
the exact same way. I mean. The thing about plastic
surgery is it doesn't really make you look younger, as
somebody said to me. It makes you look, you know,
really good for your age, like somebody who's had plastic surgery.
I am not against it at all, and I also
think I think that people do. If plastic surgery is available,
(39:08):
people will do it. And I think that it's part
of human nature self improvement, which I admire. No problem either,
but I don't want to look like a crazy person,
you know what I mean? No problem saying I get
it tomorrow and Jiffy plastic surgery. I go to Brasil,
go through the drive through, but I just know I'll
end up looking crazy. I don't look at makeup, contouring,
none of that. I'm not vain at all, so that's
(39:30):
not for me. But you look amazing. And I would
never have said it if I didn't think it, so
I wouldn't get it if I were you. Of your career,
the high and the low. I you know, I think
one of the highes was getting into the New York
Times bestseller list, because that was you know, that was
(39:51):
definitely high. And but of course, you know then there's
always the pressure. I mean, I think Lipstick Jungle, the
TV show Lipstick Jungle. Getting that on the air was
really up high, and Brookshields was in that, and you
know we love that show. Um. I mean, and the
(40:14):
lows would be when one of my old editors at
The New York Observer, uh, you know, just out of
spite gave me a really really shitty review of one
of my books, and I thought, I was, like, I
did not work my ass off for fifteen years for
(40:40):
this fucking asshole who went to Harvard who's jealous to
tear me up in New York magazine. I mean, that
was I would say that was one of the lows,
and that made me realize. I mean, unfortunately, one of
the things that I don't work very much with men,
but one of the things that I've learned from them
(41:03):
is you really they don't have your back. Or a woman,
they don't have your back. They're never have your back.
They will give lip service to having your back, but
they really don't have your back. I couldn't agree. I
really actually really agree, and I'm not the person to
say that, but I do really agree. But the thing
that I'm hearing from you, and it sounds obvious, but
because we're in the Instagram filter shortcut world, isn't the
(41:28):
number one reason that you are successful because you work
your goddamn ass off from the day one till now. Yes, um,
but I think you have to really, really really love
doing it. And you know that's to me. It's like
one of the big differences between being um writer and
(41:50):
being an actor. When you're an actor, you have somebody
has to hire you to do the job. You can't
you know, you can't walk down the street and say hey,
or be in your apartment like, oh, I'm gonna act.
It doesn't make any sense. But with a raider, you know,
all you need is a piece of paper and a pencil, honestly,
(42:13):
and I write a lot of stuff that I don't
get paid for. I just do it because that's who
you are. You know. I did it without making any
money for a long time. And when I look at
my financial situation, I'm always like, I've made enough money
to be able to afford to write for the next
(42:34):
five years or for the next two years. That's beautiful,
that's really nice, So, you know, So that's how I
look at it, and I often think, you know, you
just have to pray that the culture is gonna somehow
catch up with you. But then it also you know,
sometimes you're rioting on the wave and it aligns and
(42:58):
it works in your six dessful, but that wave changes
direction and then you're not successful. So that's really that's
the hard part, yes, but that's the learning. That's the
best part, because that's when you realize how to navigate
something and when it happens again, you don't get all
(43:18):
worked up into it. I guarantee that guy who wrote
you that shitty review, if that happened today, you would
handle it in a completely different way emotionally and maybe literally.
Well today there's you know, today you can put that
out on the Internet, and you would have other women
coming to your defense and saying, like, this guy's really
out alone and this is a really sexist review. But
(43:42):
back then that didn't happen. Well, I so appreciate your wisdom,
your insight. You're telling us your story and sharing and
this conversation. I appreciate it so much, and I wish
you so much luck on your show, and I can't
wait to hear about it. Well, you're gonna come to it.
I would love to come to it. I just wasn't
gonna invite myself. I can invite you. Okay, great, great,
(44:06):
it sounds wonderful. Bye bye. So that was Candice Bushnell.
Her show is Is There Still Sex in the City.
She was interesting and different. That was more of a
conversation that was just really us getting inside of who
(44:27):
she is. And she was really just part of such
an iconic time in New York and the most iconic
show for single women in history. And I really appreciated
that conversation, and I liked that there was pushback, meaning
there were things that I thought that were were incorrect,
and it just was a good, good flow. So I
appreciate you and that conversation and I hope you will rate,
(44:51):
review and subscribe. Thank you so much. It's going really
well and I'm so happy to appreciate you. Yeah, walk
bout the fut
We have to go into the fact that I did
a zoom from my daughter's school and the pronouns conversation
with each teacher, each parent, each child, and my daughter
says in school too that everybody has to say their pronouns.
So and my daughter don't even know what hers were.
And I can't even blame you. I know what I
(00:34):
am or what I think I am, but like I
never have said it out loud, I don't. It hasn't
come up for me. And so she didn't know. She
said someone exactly had to say it, someone said it
before her, because someone's parents definitely told them. So there
are these crazy stories about these camps. This summer summer
Camp went fucking crazy this summer. So either it was
the pandemic or everybody meaning everybody being politically correct, it
(00:59):
was the pandemic or politically correctness, or it just happened
to be the craziest year in camp history. So my
daughter doesn't go to camp in the Hampton's Um. I
canceled for this too. It's a primarily Jewish sport. This
send your kid away for the whole summer to camp.
It's a primary it's it's people other people go to camps,
but like people looking at you like something's sucking wrong
(01:20):
with you that your kids? Where is she going this summer?
And I'm like, I can't, mommy, what I can't wait
to ship my kids off of the whole. So what
I guess you can't, mommy. We go weakeboarding, we go surfing.
This is a very very revolutionary, drastic And he's laughing
because and he works for your Jewish Annie, And right,
you go to camp? Annie, Yeah, a teeniorsot to camp.
(01:42):
Did you has you ever met a Jew that is
of some means that hasn't got that has not other
kids going to camp? Never? No, it's just like it's
a Jewish. It's weird. People think, yeah, right, So the
fact that my mother, they'll think it's genetic. My mother
came from a Catholic family and converted. And I'm not religious,
but people, you know, if you're Jewish, it's just it's
(02:03):
a write of passage. Okay. So all the Jews in
the Hampton's are on this like list than email list.
It's either like a thread or they all are on
some chain and people are on there who their kids
don't even go to these camps. But like every jew
emails each other and knows about what's going on all
the camps. And there are different ones, like there's one
called Racket Lake and one that was called like Tyler Hill.
(02:25):
Are they still all around? Which one did you get
when knock trails? And these are like brand these are
brand names. Is I just had like Louis Uttan product Gucci?
These are like brand name KM one was like tennis something.
So this summer, these these these emails were flying. Okay.
One of the emails said that, And some of it's
just gossip because there's a lot of liability, so the
(02:47):
parents are putting it on their own emails. It's not
like a blast from Camp Central. This is like parents
emailing each other. So the first story, and these are
all true stories. It's they've all been vetted. There are
all the all the camps are freaking out. The first story.
One one issue that occurred was it's an all girls
camp and a person with a penis who identifies as
(03:09):
being a girl went to the camp and was in
the bunk with the girls, and the girls saw her.
Because it's hard because it's a it's a it's a
male anatomy. But in identifying as a woman. So the
so the girl other girls saw a penis and they're like,
(03:30):
you know, years old. So the parents obviously or not obviously,
But then why could you see a vagina? I don't know. Okay,
so the parents obviously weren't that um happy. And then
and I don't know why this is different because I
don't we hadn't heard about it that much. But this
girl with with a penis was making out with a
(03:52):
lot of the different girls at the camp. So that
was the first story that happened, like things you don't
necessarily think of. Okay, A separate story just about crazy
camp stuff. Was there was somebody that having nothing to
do with sexuality, was it was? It was it was
a tickler, like tickling all the different kids, and that
person got sent home. And then there was one where
there was like a hole in the bunk and they
were there was a peaker. And then this is my
(04:15):
personal favorite, So they send home emails when you're at
camp and they say, um, you know, we did a
camp a bonfire that you know, color war. Everything's going great,
this happened, we all had this experience. This happened, the
other thing happened, etcetera, and yeah, and by the and also, um,
three of the kids went out to go get wood
for the bonfire and they came upon a dead body.
(04:38):
So in one of the camps there was like an
engineer or somebody that took their own life very very
sad obviously, and three of the kids went in like
stand by me fashion and found a body. So camp
was lit this summer. But it's an interesting conversation about
(04:58):
a girl a female anatomy being in a male anatomy
bunk or vice versa. Okay, so that's a conversation. And
they're talking a lot about sports now, and how is
it fair if you're on a team and somebody with
a male anatomy who identifies as being a woman is playing,
And is that fair? And how can you balance out
(05:19):
a lot of people, don't you know? Because there are
I think there's um like studies that the least uh
proficient male is still often stronger or vest or what
have you male anatomy than the most proficient female. I said,
what they can maybe um level the playing field, like
(05:40):
find somebody to be in that same situation to play
on the other side, or some way to do it,
or you know, there's way there are ways too great
on a curve or things like that. So what about
that conversation? And then you know, I was thinking the
other day about this is to be honest, I have um,
I have a mail driver, and I was thinking, and
my girl up, my assistance will sometimes if I have
(06:00):
to go run and do something, they'll stay with Brenn
for a minute, or they'll meet her downstairs when she
does a transfer back from her dad. Um, I don't know.
I don't have a nanny. I've never had a nanny,
so you know, and I don't never scared. I've never
had a babysitter either, So people around me will help me.
And um my driver will drive bryn to school sometimes
or back to her dad's uh without me in the car.
(06:21):
So I was thinking the other day about, and this
has been in the past two if Albie was a driver,
we had the Britain love. She loves all DEMI driver.
So I was thinking about if I was going out
one night and if he could stay with her if
I had to just run and go do something. And
I thought, well, my ex might say something, would say
something like, oh, she shouldn't be because he said in
the past wouldn't shouldn't be alone with you know, quote
(06:42):
unquote a strange man or you know, but then why
can she be alone with a woman? Like that's something
no one really talks about. And that happens also in
office is where men my Dennis, my ex fiance, has
a rule that he wouldn't be in an office alone
with a woman if the door weren't open because of
me too and all that stuff, and people say that
(07:03):
about elevators. But now it's gonna to change just to
be a person. Why why is it just a woman?
Because that's sexist to say that. God, a man could
be with my daughter, but not a woman. Right, So
that's one interesting thing that's crazy. And then you know,
everybody's giving their pronouns and the next thing you know
that's gonna be you're gonna be like, I don't I
don't pronoun I don't I I don't want to tell
(07:26):
you that that's it's private information. Like everything is so
rule based and people don't know exactly how to follow
the rules that you know, anything could you could say
anything too though you could say, and this is the
controversial conversation, I'm fully okay with it, but you could say,
I don't want to say my sexuality, that's not relevant
to anything. Why does that have to be something that
(07:47):
we tell everybody? Um also, you know with the bathrooms
at schools changing and all that, which is great. But
the truth the thing, the interesting thing about this is
the age when so my daughter's age, what happens if
there's a child who isn't ready to make that decision?
So don't a lot of girls in college or not
(08:09):
even a college, high school college, don't a lot of
girls in college have a lesbian phase but then they
realize that they're not. Maybe they're going through something, maybe
they want attention, maybe they go through a bad a
bad breakup. And how what is the age that someone's
absolutely positive who they are? There's got to be gray area,
Meaning there are some children that know exactly who they are.
They identify as a boy, they identify as a girl,
(08:31):
they may have male anatomy, they their parents know for sure.
But then aren't there some kids that in high school
and college make that decision. And I've heard literally hard
of situations where then they sort of unmake that decision. So,
if you're a person who's for a period of time
identifying with being a girl and you're a boy, and
(08:54):
then you know, you decide to switch that back. I
mean you're not going through any sort of surgery in
that case what I'm talking about, But I just mean
you're more comfortable like that, and then you decide to
switch back, Like, what does that mean for that camp?
What does that mean for that bunk that there's a
person with a penis and maybe a mother isn't ready
for her child to see a penis in the bunk
(09:15):
and understand that the person identifies as being um a girl.
Because my daughter understands all of this. I mean she's
you know, it's amazing. They have different language, different understandings.
But she's also hasn't seen a penis, you know, and
so in a camp she would have would see girl parts.
So I just think these conversations are also fluid. So
(09:35):
I want to hear what you guys all think. What
do you think you you all on the on this
on this podcast, my team, my producers, did I explain
all that right? It was a confusing or like, explain
my feelings right that I seem like I have any specific,
uh point of view on it, because I it's just
a conversation. I don't actually necessarily, I just we was
talking about it at dinner last night. Yeah, it definitely
(09:57):
seems like you are more opening the converse station and
then coming in with a strong point of view on
what you think. The the answers are necessarily Yeah, what
do you think? What do you think about it? Um?
You know, I'm very active in trans inclusion in sports
and things like that. I think, especially at young ages,
you know, inclusion is all that really matters as far
as helping young people be fully fulfilled UM versus winning. Yeah, definitely.
(10:23):
You know, building billion a child's morale is going to
be the most important thing over the team winning because
they feel like there's an advantage. There's also a very
uh like a lot of those studies, like there's not
a ton of studies to prove that especially at young ages,
kids have that much of an advantage based on anatomy
at that point. Okay, so what about when they what
about older? What about high school? When people are what
(10:47):
about when they're drafting kids for like you know, like
Friday night lights stuff for football and matt it matters
what colleges think and the winning and losing do do matter?
So what do you think about my idea of you know,
grading on a car car EV which is crazy for
like professional sports, or stack the deck so that there's
a situation where both teams, but you can't control that,
(11:08):
I guess because you can't control other schools do It's
I think it's a complicated issue. You have to admit
that now, Yeah, definitely. I mean I think a large
for the conversation too, is like what is an advantage?
You know, like people bring up Michael Phelps a lot
um is height in basketball and advantage. So it's like, okay, sorry,
you're too tall to place. Okay, I like that. So
it's kind of like, what, what's even an advantage? So
(11:30):
that's kind of a conversation that I've seen around it
a lot interesting what is an advantage? Well, but there
are differences between men and women, even they say in
left and right brain, I mean, there are physical differences.
We can't say that every single thing is going to
be exactly the same, do you know what I mean? Totally?
So then it's like that kind of opens up in
what is competition? Like, what's the goal of competition if
(11:51):
there's always gonna be some advantage somewhere. Then I understand
that's a very interesting thing. What if you're smarter and
you're just smartest, you have better tagtical decision making on
a field. I get why it's such a What do
you think about the the the bunk A male anatomy
person in that bunk. Yeah, it's interesting because, like you said,
(12:12):
some of the parents are freaking out, but it sounds
like your daughter like kind of knew the words and
kind of was like familiar already. So I'm wondering how
much do you feel like it's parents overreacting in their
kids behalf but they're kind of ready for those conversations,
or do you feel like not they're not ready? I
mean no, because because because a penis often goes into
(12:33):
a vagina, I think so they might not want that
sort of you know, visual so that soon, you know
what I mean, like that idea, I think, I mean,
it's it's super it's it's it's changing a whole construct
of how people think. So if somebody identifies as being
a girl and is in a bunk and has a penis,
(12:55):
I think I understand why it's going to be jarring,
But I also under stand how much turmoil for that
poor child who is going to have to feel that
like they don't know where they belong. That is horrible,
like that feeling, you know what I mean. So that's
the point everyone. They have to have a place to
go to go to the bathroom and feel safe and comfortable.
That just has to be a discussion. And what if
(13:18):
there are no other kids in that situation. I guess
if I I were a parent, I would want my
child to go to another camp where there were kids
in the same situation, or I would do Camp Mommy
like I do, Like I would not every you know
what I mean, Not every situation is set up to
make somebody thrive. I mean, I know people who won't
send their children to really very athletic schools because they're
(13:41):
a little more quote unquote alt or quote unquote you know, nerdy,
like whatever that word means, you know what I'm saying,
but like just not not jocks. So they're not going
to send them to these schools that are primarily jocks
because they're not gonna They're gonna set them up for
not feeling safe and successful. So I think parents have
to do the job of making your kid feel safe.
(14:02):
You can't just put you can't just because you can't
make every situation fit. I think that I think that's
what I think. I think I would. I'm always going
to try to set up my daughter for where she's
going to thrive. And I don't think I like that
the camp. But the camp didn't think it through. I
guess if that ever happened, I don't know. Maybe they
didn't think someone would see their anatomy and then that
(14:23):
would be the thing. I guess that's the rule. No
one shows their anatomy females or or males. That one
was a counselor. The counselor was identified as being a girl. Oh,
I did hear that. I'm mixing the two stories. Okay,
so that was a point of a camper too, because
it could happen. Yeah, that could happen for a camper.
But that's true. It was a counselor, but it was
this There was also, I'm not the counselor. The kid
(14:47):
was a male anatomy child making out with female anatomy child.
That was the thing the parents were writing about. But
then separately, there was a counselor that was in the
girls um bunk and and they saw the counselor's anatomies,
and now that's an older counselor, so then that's like
sort of that's that's a problem, Like that's that's not okay.
(15:09):
So it's very interesting. It's a very interesting conversation. And
I feel like that would be where no one can
no one's allowed to show their anatomy. It doesn't matter
what you identify as or who you identify as. Candice
Bushnell is my guest today. She is an international best
(15:31):
selling author with three TV shows based on her work,
including of Course, Sex and the City. She's been writing
professionally since she was just nineteen and talks to me
about the passion it takes to make it as a writer.
We discussed New York and how it's shaped our lives
and her work, and what drove her to write and
star in her new one person show, Is There Still
Sex in the City. She's so fascinating, so honest, so
(15:55):
new York and so real. I know you're going to
love this one. So you grew up in Connecticut? Correct, Yes, okay,
I did, but you know I came to New York
when I was actually eighteen. I pretty much I did,
but a lot of people do I ran away from college?
(16:17):
Did you um come from humble means middle class? What
was the financial situation in your home? It was a
middle class family, you know in Connecticut, the suburbs. You know,
I think the people felt that, you know, in those
days middle class, A lot of middle class people felt
like they were upper middle class. You know, there was
(16:39):
a lot less income disparity back then. It kind of
felt like everybody was the same. I mean we didn't
have you know, there weren't people who were like living
in mansions. There were people who had family money. Um.
But because I didn't grow up in Greenwich or a
place like that where people were working in New York City,
(17:02):
it kind of felt like everybody was pretty much the same.
You know, everybody wore eesa left cost shirts. It was
a very losty old New England town um where people
really valued being Yankees. You know, everybody was modest. You
don't talk about money. It was considered very declasse to
(17:23):
talk about money. So it doesn't sound like you wanted
for anything. But there were definitely dreams of aspiration, meaning
there was definitely some place to go to sore So
what was your parents were together? Yes, until my mother died.
Oh wow, okay, So did they instill in you a
(17:44):
work ethic? What was the relationship to success and work
and striving in your house? I think the one thing
that my parents never I had two younger sisters and
they never you know, they never talked about getting married
and having kids. That was something that that you know,
(18:06):
I wasn't talked about. It wasn't encouraged. We didn't know
how to I have two younger sisters, no brothers. I
don't even think I really talked to a guy until
I went to college, so I have a very little
experienced with men. My father was a genius, invented the
(18:28):
fuel cell the east in the first of follow space rocket,
So being smart was really really important somehow, you know.
There was a lot of pressure to do something, but
no instructions on how to do it, no help on
how to do it. It was really about you know,
(18:49):
in those days, I remember my father saying, you know,
when you turn it too and you're gonna be cut off.
So if you want to figure out a good way
for your for your kids run away from college, tell
them they're getting cut off at a team. So they
were very much instilling a work ethic and don't rely
on a man, which is so interesting to me because
of your trajectory. That's why I asked these questions because
(19:12):
often people who are now successful, raising our kids is
more challenging than we didn't have anything. Um, So you're
saying that that was really instilled, and that's come through
in your work completely. Like, does not seem like you
ever really even thought about a man rescuing you, saving you,
being your prince charming. It seems like you wanted to
do it on your own. I did. It's a lot
(19:32):
harder to do it on your own, do you know
very well? But very few women have made the kind
of money you've made. Very few. Is it harder? I
think it would have been harder to meet someone and
wait for them to give me what I wanted and
have to ask permission and have someone else control the
purse strings. That's something I've never even understood. How you
(19:53):
do that? That's the problem. I mean, that's the problem.
It's like, I mean, you know, you live, you've lived
in New York. You know there's a whole you know,
there's a huge group of women who come to New
York who were looking for the rich husband, And I mean,
if you're looking for rich husband, New York is one
of the places you come, and they know how to
(20:17):
manage that negotiate that they're pros. But I do see,
you know, I mean, I see women who have been
married to very rich men end up with you know,
five million dollars, twenty millions. I understand what you're saying,
but I think if you marry for money, you pay
for the rest of your life in some way. So
(20:38):
that's just a concept. I totally agree. You are married
for how many years now, I'm divorced. I was married
for ten years, so I I consider that to be
(21:01):
a successful relationship. I do too. I mean, I think,
you know, there's all different kinds of successful relationships. And
I mean, you know, as time goes on, I think,
you know, some relationships are just not meant to last forever.
And I think that, you know, as people live longer,
(21:22):
they're gonna be sections of time when you know you're
with someone, you maybe with somebody who you raise a
child with, and then you don't stay together, and then
maybe you're with somebody else. So I think we're gonna
have different stages in our lives as women. There will
be times when you're gonna be single. That's a construct.
So it's interesting you just are talking about something that
(21:43):
doesn't have to be bad. It could still have been
a successful relationship. It just was gonna devolve based on
who you both were becoming or became, is what I
think you're saying, right, you know, and it also depends on,
you know, where people are in their lives. My husband
was ten years younger, and you know, I mean when
my mother died. These kinds of things can really change
(22:07):
relationships too. You know, if there's an emotional blow and
you know, one person can kind of lose their footing,
and sometimes the other person is just not emotionally and
psychically able to help them through that because it takes
a lot, It takes a lot of It takes a lot,
(22:29):
you know, I think, you know, I think that being
married takes a lot of emotional maturity, probably more than
most people have. You know. Then on top of that,
having a child, you know, you need to grown ups
in a relationship, I think, to have to raise a child,
and often you've got one, usually the woman. That's so
(22:53):
interesting what you're saying. It's true, both people have to
be really up to the task. Not everybody based on
what we all come into this life with our own
baggage or own family, our own history. Not everybody's always
up to the task. Not everybody wants to workshop everything.
You have to work it, and not evon always wants
to work. Sometimes people just you know, give up and
let go of the rope. I think that's interesting, and
it doesn't mean it's a failure. I mean that's I
(23:14):
think that's very interesting. So what is your writing process
and how has it changed? Well, first of all, I
started writing professionally when I was nineteen. I'm completely mystified
by you know, people who say like, oh, I want
to write a book, and I've never written a book before,
you know, I mean, to me, writing is a very
different thing. To me, writing is like being an actress.
(23:37):
It's like being a violentist. It's that's who you are.
It's something that you're born doing. It's something that it
comes deep within. And when I was younger, I really
felt like I am going to die if I am
not a writer. Less than that, people with less passion
than that is like, I don't really get it. Why
(24:00):
would you want to write a book. I'm just for money?
I guess writing is not a money making thing. That's
what I don't understand. It's really it's a passion and
it's something that you feel like if you don't do it,
you're gonna die. And that was pretty much how I
felt all through, you know. I mean, I knew I
(24:22):
was going to be a writer when I was eight,
and that's really what carried me through, you know, my twenties,
not making any money, really struggling writing for women's magazines.
I mean, now that I'm doing the show, I just
I think, you know, there's just so many easier ways
(24:42):
to make money, like probably being an actor, right, you know,
I mean, writing a book is lonely, it's tedious, it's
extremely time consuming. You know. For me, when I'm writing
a book, I'm writing, I might write ten pages a day.
I am not seeing anybody for about ten days, and
(25:05):
I have a really, really disciplined schedule, so it's you know,
it's not a side job for me. You have to
not only be a person who wants to be a
writer and knows how to express themselves and feel, but
who also is grammatically able, because nobody I know can
(25:26):
write an email, nobody can spell, and nobody can communicate.
I mean, I I correct everybody's everything. So that's the
only reason probably that I can write books, because if
I have a thought, I can communicate it in a
very streamlined way. But it's not in your god given
talent way, in my opinion, So I'm find that very
interesting what you're talking about, your natural boy. I don't.
(25:46):
I don't. I mean, I'm right, because I find human
beings fascinating and all. And it's like, I'm kind of
like a medium. I have been ever since I was
a kid. I can really get into people's heads and
like feel what they're feeling. And you know, I don't
(26:12):
write a book because I'm trying to get a message
across you. Because this is fiction too. It's not like
a prescriptive. It's fiction. It's fantasy. I'm creating characters and
then I'm following the characters. The characters take over. You know.
It's it's it's it's a work of imagination, and it's
(26:34):
really about being in your head and literally being in
a different world, like being in this world, but really
being in the world in your head and capturing that.
It's a very different thing. And you read a lot.
I used to. I mean that, you know. That's the
(26:56):
other aspect of this is that I used to read
a ton. Now I feel like I'm just addicted to
my goddamn phone. If you're not reading, you're probably writing, right,
I mean, right now I'm not writing because I'm working
on the One woman show. Is there's still sex in
the city. Um, Normally I'm writing six days a week
(27:18):
and probably for five or six hours a day. Um.
That is a discipline. It's disciplined. That is a discipline.
That's amazing. It doesn't give you time for a lot
of other things. And you know, I mean I gave
up going out a lot too. Sounds satisfying though, And
the pandemic was probably the craziest time of your whole life,
(27:40):
like you probably probably poured out of you. Everybody's life
during the pandemic was pretty much my life all the time,
you know, not going out, not seeing a lot of
people working at home, not putting on the TV. But
it was such an unsettled time that I wasn't exactly
(28:01):
sure what to write about your success when it popped off,
Like what tell me about that story you were doing
what you couldn't pay your rent? Like what was that arc. Like,
I think what it's really about is finding your voice
and finding your style, what you write about, your point
(28:23):
of view, how you look at the world, and then
being able to take what's in your head and get
that onto the page. That's really the hardest part. It's like,
you know, it's like playing an instrument. It's like playing
the violin. You know, at first you practice everybody else's music,
(28:43):
and you know, you learn how to actually do it
put words together. So from all of my twenties, I
was really writing the precursors in a sense of what
would become Sex in the City. Okay, I was writing
about women in New York, women, my friends, me, our relationships, society.
(29:11):
What's it like as a you know, woman with the
pressures to have a career, find a relationship. And you know,
I just kept doing it, and eventually it's like the
outside world kind of intersected with my ambitions. You know.
I got an opportunity to albacolumn in the New York Observer,
(29:35):
and I knew exactly what to do because I've been
doing it for so long. And so then you get
yourself in the right place at the right time, and
you become successful. Maybe if I had written you know,
if I had different breaks, uh, when I was in
(29:56):
my twenties, if I come from a wealthy family that
accorded me where I could just have written books. When
I was nineteen, I wrote a children's book. Um, and
I thought, I am just gonna write novels. And but
you can't do that unless you have family money, unless
(30:16):
you have the right connections, unless you went to an
Ivy League school. Uh. You know, all of that stuff
takes connections, and I didn't have any connections. Did you
get really into it? You're like, oh my god, this
is it. I'm I'm somebody. I mean, it doesn't sound
like you were like that, but were you like that?
You know, it might be that I've always felt like
(30:37):
I am somebody. Um, I think you know, New York
is definitely a place where people come to make it,
and I definitely came here to make it and hopefully
to be who I was supposed to be, and know
I'm who I am supposed to be. But in terms
(30:58):
of you know, look, New York is a place. It's
all about status and it's all about pecking order. We
see that at the met Ball Who's going who isn't
I went once when I was with the real Mr
big Um, And you know, New York is that's what
(31:18):
it's about. Do you care? Do you care that you
didn't go to the met Ball? Not really? Do you know?
Like yes, in a sense that I would love to
see if I could do it and nail it and
land it. But that's just who I am as a
person as just for myself, nothing to do with I
don't care what people think of me. I don't care
about the press or any of that stuff. That's just
not me. And you know, and New York is a
(31:39):
place where you know, there's certain you know, people that
you can hang out with and be a part of
if you want to adopt the same kind of attitudes
that they have. And it's like, you know, I mean,
I've been in situations where people are like, oh, if
you start up to this person, you know they can
(31:59):
do your lot of favors. It's like, I'm not sucking
up to anybody. That's truly what you just said is
really the real New York. What you were talking about
is the bullshit New York and most of those people
the Emperor has no clothes when you meet them there morons,
they're crazy, they're whack jobs, they're just all image. They're frosting.
There's no cake like And that's one of the realities
(32:20):
about New York. I mean, they're just I mean, there's
so many decisions and people do so many things that
are just horrible and it's just business. And so you
really have to have a tough skin here. And you know,
there's certain people who it's like, Okay, they're famous or whatever,
but do you really want to hang out with them.
(32:40):
It's nice to have arrived so you don't have to
go anywhere anymore. But now maybe because it's after the
pandemic or whatever, but now I'm like, I want to
go out. It's so funny me too. That's why I
last night, look because you want to get dressed up
and do something and I'm not like that at all.
That's exactly it. And you know, I mean, that's really
one of the reasons why I'm doing the show at
the Darryll Row Theater is it's like coming to my
(33:03):
living room. It's like gathering a whole bunch of girlfriends.
I'm with your girlfriends. We're gonna have a good time.
And I feel like That's that's what I'm really looking for.
I love that. Okay, well I love that. Um what
do you think about in your city? What do you
think about New York? Do you still have this love
(33:24):
affair with New York? Do you love it the same
way you always did? I mean, as one gets older
and one matures, certain things fall away. Um. You know,
when I was younger, everything is so magnified. Every little
detail is so important. When you get older, you can't
even see that. Well, you know, I can't even tell
(33:46):
the difference between a fake Chanelle bag in a real one.
You know why haven't so I don't care. But you're young.
It's like you're you know, having the right hand bag
is so important, and and you know, going to the
right parties and getting in and you know, also I
was in New York when in the late seventies went
(34:08):
Studio fifty four, the eighties, the nineties. New York was
all about going out, I know. And that was part
of business too. That was business to succeeding at that
and it was the theater of New York. It was
the you know, you go to a restaurant, you see
four people you know, and you you know, your your
(34:31):
your network, and and you know, it was that excitement
of things are happening all the time. And but that's
how it is when you're young. Now, is that Williamsburg
Brooklyn with you know, twentysomethings were going out to clubs?
It probably is. Is it gonna happen being a six
(34:54):
year old woman? I don't know what it is when
you have no hormones. You look at the world differently, right,
that it's much better. Actually, that's very very funny. But
so I think it's more about a mastery. But you know,
I do still love New York. It doesn't feel like
(35:16):
it's as exciting as it used to be. But that
could just be because of my age. I don't think so.
I know, I think about that sing. I think she's
taken a hit. I mean, like to me, I mean,
one of the problems with New York is, let's face it,
it's the income disparity because and the other thing is,
(35:37):
for instance, like in the you know, in the building
that I live in, the building I live in, Dorothy
Parker used to live here. It used to be all
one bedrooms, and it used to be you know a
lot of single women. Now people have taken all of
these apartments and then combine them because they have kids
(35:59):
and so there are astronomical maintenances. The prices of the
apartments are you know, five times what they should be,
and who can afford that. The only person you can
afford that is another hedge funder with a family, So
you know, just that itself. You know, it changes the
(36:20):
dynamics of the city because where are you know, the
city used to be filled with single people. Yeah, but
online dating has changed that a lot too. I've heard
men say that they won't walk up to a woman
in a restaurant or a bar and just cold because
if she's with a girlfriend, because they will think if
she wanted to be out with a guy, she would
be on an online date. Every girl. Every night. Your
(36:43):
show would be a totally different show. Every night you
could go get a different online date, the one where
you just box someone, the one where someone is Jewish,
the one you want to marry someone, the one you
want to go on three dates, tell a storytell a joke,
you have something in common, some weird fetish. I mean,
you choose your adventure. So that's why people don't have
to go out and it's not that interaction and that
social jungle. It used to be, yes, except that everybody
(37:05):
I talked to you goes online all the time. Hate.
I met my fiance online, and like he's Prince Charming. Literally,
he's like the real life Prince Charming. And you have
to treat it like you have to do it like
a business too. You can't just be like flippant about it.
So you know what's important to you, you know it's
not important to you, and you know what's a deal breaker,
what's non negotiable. And it's amazing. And I can't what
(37:27):
I'm saying that because I was the last one to
do it, the last except for you. I was like,
there's no way, it's not for me. And I got
into it and like I literally met Prince Charming. I
know so many people who have met somebody online dating,
and you know, they do the same thing. They really
treat it like a job. But the only thing that
(37:49):
I've noticed, but you know what it's like, online dating
is like offline dating. You know, if you have if
you're good at certain things, you know, being able to
make a conversation, shan having self confidence, you're gonna do
well dating online or offline. Yeah, are you vain? I
(38:23):
don't think so. Now you don't care about age and
plastic surgery per se, or you don't think about it
a lot, like well, I feel like I should get
plastic surgery. I do not think based on looking at you,
I didn't know you've had it or haven't had it,
you definitely should not get plastic surgery. I haven't had any,
but I feel like I want to. But I also
(38:45):
feel like it don't really have the guts. I feel
the exact same way. I mean. The thing about plastic
surgery is it doesn't really make you look younger, as
somebody said to me. It makes you look, you know,
really good for your age, like somebody who's had plastic surgery.
I am not against it at all, and I also
think I think that people do. If plastic surgery is available,
(39:08):
people will do it. And I think that it's part
of human nature self improvement, which I admire. No problem either,
but I don't want to look like a crazy person,
you know what I mean? No problem saying I get
it tomorrow and Jiffy plastic surgery. I go to Brasil,
go through the drive through, but I just know I'll
end up looking crazy. I don't look at makeup, contouring,
none of that. I'm not vain at all, so that's
(39:30):
not for me. But you look amazing. And I would
never have said it if I didn't think it, so
I wouldn't get it if I were you. Of your career,
the high and the low. I you know, I think
one of the highes was getting into the New York
Times bestseller list, because that was you know, that was
(39:51):
definitely high. And but of course, you know then there's
always the pressure. I mean, I think Lipstick Jungle, the
TV show Lipstick Jungle. Getting that on the air was
really up high, and Brookshields was in that, and you
know we love that show. Um. I mean, and the
(40:14):
lows would be when one of my old editors at
The New York Observer, uh, you know, just out of
spite gave me a really really shitty review of one
of my books, and I thought, I was, like, I
did not work my ass off for fifteen years for
(40:40):
this fucking asshole who went to Harvard who's jealous to
tear me up in New York magazine. I mean, that
was I would say that was one of the lows,
and that made me realize. I mean, unfortunately, one of
the things that I don't work very much with men,
but one of the things that I've learned from them
(41:03):
is you really they don't have your back. Or a woman,
they don't have your back. They're never have your back.
They will give lip service to having your back, but
they really don't have your back. I couldn't agree. I
really actually really agree, and I'm not the person to
say that, but I do really agree. But the thing
that I'm hearing from you, and it sounds obvious, but
because we're in the Instagram filter shortcut world, isn't the
(41:28):
number one reason that you are successful because you work
your goddamn ass off from the day one till now. Yes, um,
but I think you have to really, really really love
doing it. And you know that's to me. It's like
one of the big differences between being um writer and
(41:50):
being an actor. When you're an actor, you have somebody
has to hire you to do the job. You can't
you know, you can't walk down the street and say hey,
or be in your apartment like, oh, I'm gonna act.
It doesn't make any sense. But with a raider, you know,
all you need is a piece of paper and a pencil, honestly,
(42:13):
and I write a lot of stuff that I don't
get paid for. I just do it because that's who
you are. You know. I did it without making any
money for a long time. And when I look at
my financial situation, I'm always like, I've made enough money
to be able to afford to write for the next
(42:34):
five years or for the next two years. That's beautiful,
that's really nice, So, you know, So that's how I
look at it, and I often think, you know, you
just have to pray that the culture is gonna somehow
catch up with you. But then it also you know,
sometimes you're rioting on the wave and it aligns and
(42:58):
it works in your six dessful, but that wave changes
direction and then you're not successful. So that's really that's
the hard part, yes, but that's the learning. That's the
best part, because that's when you realize how to navigate
something and when it happens again, you don't get all
(43:18):
worked up into it. I guarantee that guy who wrote
you that shitty review, if that happened today, you would
handle it in a completely different way emotionally and maybe literally.
Well today there's you know, today you can put that
out on the Internet, and you would have other women
coming to your defense and saying, like, this guy's really
out alone and this is a really sexist review. But
(43:42):
back then that didn't happen. Well, I so appreciate your wisdom,
your insight. You're telling us your story and sharing and
this conversation. I appreciate it so much, and I wish
you so much luck on your show, and I can't
wait to hear about it. Well, you're gonna come to it.
I would love to come to it. I just wasn't
gonna invite myself. I can invite you. Okay, great, great,
(44:06):
it sounds wonderful. Bye bye. So that was Candice Bushnell.
Her show is Is There Still Sex in the City.
She was interesting and different. That was more of a
conversation that was just really us getting inside of who
(44:27):
she is. And she was really just part of such
an iconic time in New York and the most iconic
show for single women in history. And I really appreciated
that conversation, and I liked that there was pushback, meaning
there were things that I thought that were were incorrect,
and it just was a good, good flow. So I
appreciate you and that conversation and I hope you will rate,
(44:51):
review and subscribe. Thank you so much. It's going really
well and I'm so happy to appreciate you. Yeah, walk
bout the fut
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.