September 21, 2023 • 43 mins
Dr. Matt’s bedside manner is straight and to the point.
Find out what he thought of the Vanderpump Rules Reunion and why he likened it to “a hamster wheel of hate.”
Plus, he talks about how the world is reacting to Ashton and Mila and explains confirmation bias and why we’re surrounded by it.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
So welcome for everyone listening. This is doctor Matt, who's
someone who I don't personally work with, meaning he hasn't
quote unquote treated me. We've spoken because we've connected on
another matter that does isn't about me. But I so
I met doctor Matt in a way that maybe I'll
(00:33):
tell you another day. It's something like it's not a secret,
but it's a little prime kind of private for now.
So but I like, I like doctor Matt. And you
give your resume, like not long, but just like, what's
your I'm psychologist.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I'm in private practice. I've been in private practice since
ninety nine, which is obscene to me. I can't believe
how long I've been doing this.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
But yeah, and what percentage? What do you mostly work on?
It's fan I work.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
A lot with anxiety and depression, and a lot with families,
all aspects of families. So I see a lot of kids.
I do a lot of parenting, a lot of emerging
young adults, a lot of twenties. The twenty somethings are
coming into my practice more than ever before. Kids are
also couples.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
And couples, So you have like a what percentages kids?
What percentages or kids slash adolescents or percentages come.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, you know, whenever you get a child. Part of
my practice, I don't really just treat the child because
I gotta treat the whole family. I gotta treat everybody right,
so everybody comes in, so I make sure of it
so it ranges. I'm about fifty to fifty with kids
to adults.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, So since I was interviewing Raquel now Rachel from
vander Pump Rules, I mentioned it to you and I
asked you to watch the reunion of vander Pump Rules.
So you watched the three parts of the reunion. I did, yes, okay,
So to get everyone caught up, because I was trying
(02:05):
to get my head straight about what I thought I
was seeing, I asked doctor Matt to watch the reunion
because it seemed different than even the Housewives reunions I've seen,
where it is a beatdown in many different directions and
it is not exactly positive and it's not necessarily feel good.
I felt that it's been a little bit like there's
(02:26):
always like a toast at the end in some version
of a resolution. And I watched this and it felt
to me like a beatdown of a girl that people
do not like, made many mistakes great, but I just
was watching it on its face as a beat down
my words. She wanted to leave, and then she was
asked to come back, so I asked doctor Matt to
weigh in. So I then thought he'd be interesting to
(02:50):
just have on this show, not just about that, but
just about other things going on, whether it's Danny Masterson
or Cancel culture or scientology. I wanted to sort of
try this out because I think think a normal personal,
lay person discussing something is different than a professional person
that is thinking about this kind of stuff all day.
And that's an expert, not saying doctor Matt knows it all,
(03:12):
but I'm sure his opinion, you know, take his opinion
and see what you think. So this is doctor Matt,
and I guess we'll start with that. So you watched
that reunion, and I had research and know a bit
about emotional abuse personally, and I wanted to know what
you thought about that, like at that level. And you
said something very interesting, which was that it did not
(03:34):
seem like there was any goal or aim for resolution, right.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Right, Yeah, it was. It seemed to me it was
just a hamster wheel of hate. Right, we were never
getting off that, and they had a lot to be
angry about, not to say that they were, you know,
unnecessarily upset or angry, but there was no goal to that.
I unless, you know, I've been thinking about that, and
I think it's because of the name nature of the beast.
(04:01):
Maybe the goal is to get ratings, simply that, right,
so what are we going to do to get ratings?
And maybe right so, you know, I might be looking
at it differently, and what I would like to see
as a goal of some kind of conclusion, of some
kind of satisfaction, feeling better about a horrible event or
something that happened to you that was horrible. This reminded
(04:24):
me of Roman time, sending people, you know, slaves into
the colosseum to get slaughtered by the lions and we're
in the audience watching.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
By the way, it's so funny because I was talking
to someone using the same gladiator reference. I can't believe
you just said that. We've never said that to each other.
I thought the same thing. It's yeah, And the funny
thing is that you said, like, maybe it's about ratings,
which is so like cute because you don't watch these shows,
but the person who is the executive producer of the
show said that the show was on the verge of cancelation,
(04:56):
possibly being canceled, and that this saved the show, that
this scandal saved the show.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
So it's just funny and it's interesting to me too,
because you know, there are other shows like Intervention or
Hoarders where they're actually working through problems.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Right they're working through issues or conflicts, and it doesn't
necessarily have to be I'm going to slow to you.
It doesn't have to be all this high amount of
conflict watching people say things that maybe you always wanted
to say to somebody but didn't either have the guts
or it didn't want to know, have the ramifications of it.
So we sort of kind of vicariously enjoy watching someone
(05:32):
do that. But I think that there's more to it
than that, and I think there's an opportunity there for growth.
You know that. I tell my patients a lot. I say,
when you're angry at somebody and you have a five
gallon bucket of shit and you want to throw it
on them, there's no way you're not gonna get splattered
back on yourself. There's just no way, and I don't
(05:56):
think I would ever choose to do something that I'm
gonna get shit on myself for right, I want to
avoid it.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Well and the funny, Well, it is two things. One
is I don't blame the players, because I didn't blame
uh Russell Crowe for going into the pit and killing.
It was kill or be killed. I don't blame the players.
And it's funny because I said something about two women
on another show that said to each other, they're gonna
get this other girl wasted, and then one of their
(06:24):
sons forced himself upon her behind a door and that
was aired like and I never have said their names
because I'm not really blaming them. When you're in this game,
when you're in that colisseum, and I've been in that colosseum,
I've said things I would never normally say. I've done
things that you're in and I've I've not liked people
that I would normally like, because when you're on the field,
(06:48):
it's just a different game there, and it is for ratings,
whether it's even it's not like on the forefront. You're
not sitting there every second, so you just know what
the goal is of what you're doing. It's to always
say the thing you like, we hold back in life.
So I think it's all what I think is interesting,
and everyone's thinking about the people. And yes, we have
to think about the production because the people that are
(07:10):
the grown ups that are responsible and what they're putting out.
But if people aren't buying it, if people aren't buying it,
then there's nothing to sell. It's supply and demand. So
I think we have to look at the viewer that's
consuming this as normal because I said, it's almost like
the consumer. The viewer thinks of them. They think of
it as reality, but they kind of think of them
(07:30):
almost as actors. They don't think of it as like
real real. It's real, but it's not real real, So
they will allow for something to go down that they
would never allow in their own lives if they were
standing by. So it's like, I think we're consuming things.
And I just think that that podcast made a lot
of people reach out to me and start thinking I
didn't see it that way. They just were thinking this
(07:52):
is an entertainment vehicle, like gladiators being ripping each other's
arms off, But when they really thought this is a
daughter could be a mother one day, a purse, a
human being at the baseline, that was why it was
the upside down.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, and and not just the people who were attacked,
But I would have I would have preferred to also
hear more from the people who were attacking about what
exactly got them so upset? What exactly because you know,
this is the cheating. It seems like it's in a
lot of their lives. You know, it's in the in
the past and the histories of the show. Yes it was,
and maybe it was was more personal. But why was
(08:25):
it personal? And how was it personal? And how did
it affect them? And how did they how were they
afraid that it was going to affect them going forward? Right?
So that I think is so important, especially with like
healthy conflict resolution, because we don't have healthy conflict resolution
right now. A lot that doesn't get demonstrated too often.
(08:45):
Many battles are fought for for us instead of instead
of talking about it, people pull up their tense stakes
and leave, instead of managing and dealing with, Hey, this
has hurt me, this upset me, or this hurt me
upset me. But instead of saying it hurt me, upset me,
I'm going to attack you and I'm gonna make you
hurt and make you feel the way I feel.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
They need a moderator to do you have needed the
host to facilitate.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
That, somebody that because because when you're emotional, you're obviously
not thinking that in your emotional I'm gonna hurt, I
want to hurt. I'm hurt, I'm wanna hurt you. I'm
gonna make it fair and i'm gonna go I'm gonna
beat you, gonna win. So yeah, absolutely a moderator will
be important, someone who would be important to direct that. Yeah,
so it's more healthy. So it's an opportunity this way. Look,
(09:31):
I'm I'm a result based right, So I want people
to leave that situation feeling a little bit better, feeling
a little bit you know, I've grown a little bit
from the situation. This is a challenge and I've grown
from it. I can't imagine anybody who was launching all
those attacks felt better afterwards, tired, exhausted, but I don't
know if they felt actually better about it anything.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, And it's funny because there's a guy in this
Tom who's the villain. Also, and I had a guy,
a person yesterday, I had a person on this podcast
who was on a show with Tom as a roommate,
and he said it was this like sort of competition space,
this like boot campy type of army military thing. And
(10:14):
this guy Tyler, said that Tom was a good guy,
that he was loyal, that you could tell in these
games that he's the type who really went for you
and he got other people's backs, and like he too
is a gladiator in the middle of it. Now, I
know he's in a relationship, and I'll get into that
with you. He's in a relationship with someone that he's
(10:34):
lived with for ten years and now they've gone through
this and they're still living together, which I really question
because I can't imagine anyone who would live with someone
that they didn't have to live with, and I mean
children the abandonment issue, where like it's called abandonment in
the courts or some very serious diar reason. And I
think that the reason they are living together, and I
think that the reason he is also the villain in
(10:57):
this manner is because you do different things on these
television shows and you would in your normal life, as
I'm saying everybody does, and that shows based on alcohol
and affairs so this guy said, he's a human being,
and he said, it really bothers me because he had
an affair. He cheated. Now, by the way, he's not married,
he doesn't have kids. I'm not saying it's not bad,
(11:18):
but I don't think it's as bad as being married
with kids. That's just my opinion. And so this guy
Tyler was saying because of Cancel culture, like this guy's
getting so abused and other people that talk to him
are getting abused. And Rachel had said to me that
people that follow her or comments on something get abused,
Like we're really in this abusive culture. And he said,
(11:42):
people have affairs, people do bad things, but this he
has to live on a national stage, same with Rachel,
like they have to live it on a everyone has
to weigh in their opinion. And it's online bullying like
abusing these people. So where's the line. Why is that? Okay, Yeah,
he cheated, it's.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Bad, right, right, And maybe because he's a public public
figure of sorts, so it gives him access. It gives
people access to him where they where they can do
that for sure. And I think that I think that
we have that feeling when we could you know, they
open up themselves to us. So I'm going to share
my opinion, and I'm going to share how I feel,
(12:20):
and and and and isn't that symbiotic? Don't they work
that as well? If if he doesn't have an audience,
then he becomes irrelevant, right.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
He's Yeah, it's the rose with the pedal and the thorns.
You can't like you walked in to be famous, but like,
I don't know where the line. I don't know where
the line is. And I take a lot of ship
and get beaten up pretty good too.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, you know, it's funny because I was I was
reading I've been reading some of the comments of people
have written after your podcast. Yeah, I'm trying to do
a little you know, due diligence before I come on here. Yeah,
And one thing I have to say, you definitely get
people talking, right, good, bad, angry, happy, hate, love, You
(13:00):
definitely get people talking. And the interesting thing and I
and I talk about this a lot in my practice,
and I ask everybody, you know, what's the opposite of hate?
It's absolutely you know, and they always say love, love
and hate opposites, and they're really not, you know, they're
they're very closely related. They're very strong emotions. You don't
love a little you love, right, and you don't hate,
you hate the they're like very close, right. So the
(13:21):
opposite of that is apathy. It's just not difference in difference.
And you know, I think when you're in the public eye,
that's that's that's the worst indifference. Irrelevance is the worst, right,
So so it kind of works like, you know, are
these people in the reality are they really saying what
they're really feeling? Are they playing that game? As you say?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You know, you mean that that indifference meaning that the
people don't give a shit about you. Like the fact
that I get people heeded hating me or loving me
is doing is being successful and being a public person,
if they didn't give a shit at all, Yes, but
the public person needs to be indifferent and have apathy
means to like some I do. Like I was talking
to this guy, Tyler Cameron. He's a guy who is
(14:05):
from the Bachelorette. He's become very successful, he's beloved. He
hates the social media aspect. He said he got anxiety
for the first time ever, uh, because of reading comments
and things like that. And I would say that people
always ask me, and I think it might. I think this.
I think it has with my childhood and seeing a
lot of abuse I don't love. I get a little
(14:25):
anxiety when something's going sideways for me because it does happen,
because I do have an opinion. I'm out one of
these people just posting about flowers and jelly beans and rainbows.
But when that happens, I grab that wheel and like
I don't hold too tight and I don't hold too loose.
I just like I'm like, all right, we got something,
let's fucking deal with this. So I'm not a pert
(14:46):
or even though that when the Rachel thing, because I
took on a lot of hate, and her own you know,
team said to me, like, we appreciate what we saw.
You took a lot of heat, like they took a
lot of heat. But also one hundred percent of people
hated her. Now fifty percent of people hate, you know,
maybe even though so they're happy, maybe even fewer. I
actually don't even think it's fifty percent. It's maybe thirty
(15:06):
percent or something twenty. But it helped her. It gave
her something to go, somewhere to go, and I have
evolved into a new conversation for she was sort of
stuck in like being in this mental you know facility.
But they said you took on a lot of heat,
which I did. But like when I get slapped in
those comments, it's like a ball, a tennis ball. I
just like I just I like I serve it, you know,
(15:28):
hit it, which is.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Healthy, which is which is good? You know. I like
to think that I equate things with I love to eat.
I'm a big eater, right, So I love chocolate. I
cann have chocolate all the time. There are people in
the world who I've met who actually don't like chocolate,
which I don't get. I don't understand. Yeah, although those
are the people I want to go out to dessert
with because then they're not gonna take mine and we're good, right.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
So no, because they're gonna order some apple dessert. And
that's more annoying because you.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Don't get that it's fine, it's all.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
No, you don't share. So that therapy.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
There, right by time to be selfish when not having dessert,
especially chocolate. Right, So, Okay, as good as chocolate is,
as wonderful as chocolate is, even chocolate is not universally loved,
right and even as wonderful as you are and wonderful
as I am. Well, how can I be so narcissistic
to think that I'm as good as chocolate?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So I'm interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I'm not going to be universally loved. We have to
be okay with that. Yes, okay, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. It's a great because
chocolate's pretty fucking fabulous, So that's all great. Yeah, yeah,
that's a good one. But I like dark chocolate, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
As I've gotten older.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Dok, chocolate is yeah, I like, let's go all the way,
do it. So have you been watching the Danny Masterson stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I've quite a little bit here and yes, okay, have
you actually watched?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I was.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I was really enthralled with the Leah Rimoni series.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Oh really yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
What a what a crusader? How brave?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Amazed? I agree, that's ballsy to talk about it. And
I know her. I met her when we were both
pas on Saved by the Bet. I mean, I was
sorry when I was a PA Unsaved by the Belt
and she was a guest actress and I met her
and she was very cool and she was in some
shitty car and I remember thinking she was rich because
she was on one week she was an actress, like
going on television on a show, and she said, if
eating tacos out of the back of my car is rich,
(17:35):
then I'm rich. And I've always liked her, I've always
respected her, and I actually a lot of people were
saying she should come on here because I've been talking
about I've been referencing her, and I know her. We
respect each other. Maybe you'll come on for a little
bit of it. If she comes on, because I didn't
know you were such a fan. Yeah, she's really amazing.
She's very real and yeah she said it. Once you
(17:56):
say something, it's amazing, like you then have the freedom
you've you've I've ripped the band aid off and now
she's like, you know, fire hydrant just coming out. But
this Danny Masterson thing, Oh, that's what I was gonna
ask you. Do you do you deal with people victims
of sexual abuse?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I have, yes.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, So it was a very interesting ride I took
with this thing because a lot of things I learned
about from social media. It's like a snippet. It's not
something that was on my radar. Okay. So I think
that in the past I had heard that this guy
from that seventy show had been had violated women or
was accused of it, but it wasn't It just didn't
wasn't a story I was following. I don't think the
(18:34):
women had names or it just was something in the background.
So all of a sudden last week it becomes that
this guy is convicted, and literally I didn't remember when
I had first read it, and I did not know
this happened twenty years ago, but maybe you know. So
there's a separate conversation about these women and having to
endure this road of twenty years of torture in their minds,
(18:55):
and like it's this guy's running around and he's at
Starbucks and he's living a life, and he's acting on
a show with Ashton Kutcher and all the ranch and
all this stuff. But like when I first heard that
Ashton and Mela, who by the way, made this thing
much bigger, people are saying it's great almost what they did,
because it made this such a topic of awareness. So
even though people are very mad at them, they brought
(19:17):
awareness to something that people would have talked about for
two days and then stopped. So when I thought about
the mother contacting people that knew him to reduce a
sentence in and of itself. It made sense to me,
like it just the concept made sense. I didn't read
the stories about the girls. It wasn't human to me
or personal. It just was like and everybody went crazy.
(19:38):
And then I started doing a deeper look at it,
and Christina Ricci came out and said, you know, we
all know these guys that seem like awesome guys to us,
that do shitty things to other people. That doesn't mean
that they're good people because they've been nice to us.
And there's so many of those guys in Hollywood that
I've met, like all the me too guys I've met,
(19:59):
really all of them. And then and then I was
watching other videos of people saying how the percentage of
convictions that actually happened, how small that is, And then
how small the percentage of people that actually report it
because they don't think, you know, and all these things
that we all already know they're going to be doubted,
and then a person, it's the burden on the person
(20:21):
to prove it. And so I did a full rotation
to be like, I fully get why everyone was so enraged,
because it's sort of belittling something that's so hard to
get done that these women fought for twenty years to
get done. So I just kind of wanted to talk
to you about that whole thing.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Sure, sure, you know, the the damage that gets done
to victims is tremendous. It's tremendous. And it's not just
a physical it's that the emotional damage are wounds that
you know, really don't go away, get they change, they grow,
but the damage is tremendous because is it becomes such
(21:03):
a personal thing for them that they blame themselves right
or they find a lot how could this have been different?
What could I have done differently? They try to rewrite it.
You know, we all do that with certain when bad
things happen to us, we say to it, how could
I have avoided? What could have done differently? And to
(21:24):
make matters worse, they're told things many times and I
don't I can't say what has happened in these cases,
but many times they're told, think you deserve this, you
wanted this. Their bodies could have you know, betrayed them
and reacted in certain ways that think they want it,
even though the right So it's very confusing for victims
(21:48):
of this, because you know, if I didn't want this,
why did my body react to it? Or why do
I wear what I wore? Or you know that they
said that they they look at me in a certain way,
and which is sometimes okay, but not when it goes
over the edge.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Right, I mean before the line we're partying, we're drinking,
having fun, I was wearing a sexy top and then
it turned and like there's a line.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Before during after matter, right, it's just and.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Then why didn't I freak out and call the cops
a minute after? Like whatever?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah? Absolutely absolutely, and and maybe didn't happen that way?
And look, you know, our brain does some fascinating things
when we're faced with trauma. Shuts off, right because they
don't doesn't necessarily want to see it or you know,
react to it that way, right, We want to shut
it down. So when we shut it down, there are
gaps in our memory. There are gaps and what's going
(22:38):
to happen, And then we fill it in with what
we think would have been. But that's just a conjecture.
So then it's like, well, maybe I maybe I didn't
fight them, and maybe I didn't you know, say no
or and maybe it was. It was very clear. And
there's a responsibility that I think we all have in
relationships to make sure that you know that we're healthy
and we're in a good place, and we're interested in
(23:00):
what's happening, and we all want that. But I think
what happens after sometimes is this lack of support that
people feel or that they imagine will happen. So they
don't share it, and they don't want anyone to know,
so they don't tell anybody because they're they're afraid that
(23:21):
people can say, well, you deserved it, or why did
you wear that, or why did you go to his householdlone?
Why did you go to a hotel room alone right
and when? Or why did you leave your drink unattended?
Don't you know we told you that to leave your
drink unattended. My girls went off to college. I taught
them this is how you hold your drink right, not
like this, like this, and if someone makes a mistake,
(23:44):
someone does this, then they may I messed up because
I held my drink wrong. And so this lack of
support for themselves that they give, and then they project
that to other people, thinking that they're not going to
support them either it's damageing that abuse happens long longer,
all right, the effects have it. It's a ripple effect, right,
it happens so much longer and afterwards. So it's so
(24:06):
hard for people to come forward.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Also for you to have to deal with proving it,
go back and find all the ema what happened there
and what time and the detail like it's on it's
dumped on the person that it happened to because they
have to figure it out.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And I had.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Experience with the situation where I had to be a
lawyer with multiple books and multiple you know, and the
burden is on you. And but what you were saying
is interesting. It's there's something that happens with people. Well
two things. One, there's like a reflex that you have
about the way that you feel about yourself that's not normal,
(24:42):
and you intellectually know that it's not right. Like let's
say for years someone told you you were disgusting or
something about you like or uh, you left the house
for fifteen minutes, so you're a bad parent or stuff like,
even though it's ridiculous that you know, but if someone
like tells you or does something to you, love long
enough you start you have like a reflex that thinks
(25:02):
that that's real, and it takes a long time to
shake that up. It's not something you can just have
even a professional say to you that's not correct, and
you're just gonna be like, okay, now, I think deffinitely.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
It's like have Lovian, Yeah, well we we have a
confirmation bias, right, So you know, confirmation bias is super interesting,
and then it's it's it's pretty hard to buy out of,
to get out of. So the confirmation bias is if
I have a feeling about who I am, if I
have an idea about anything, and you can see that
with our political system right now, how separate our political
(25:33):
system is. So if I have a feeling about anything
about who I am, I only look at information that's
going to confirm that and I'm going to ignore any
information that might refute it. And so that can go
either way. So if I feel like I'm a piece
of shit, I'm going to find things. I'm going to
see things, eyes be wide open for evidence to support.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
That ape.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, or like yeah, I got a
speeding to I'm not a good person, or yeah, late,
I'm not a good person or whatever it is, or
I left my kid home for fifteen minutes, I'm not
a good person, and all these different things they build up,
and the fact that you know I'm doing this and
I'm doing that that is good and I'm taking care
of this. These people that are good fly out the window.
(26:18):
They don't matter because it doesn't conform to this confirmation
bias that I have, this bias I have that I'm
not good.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Well. I also thought about this thing being the victim
of any type of abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, any
kind of abuse that people don't always want to say
something because of how it affects other people around them.
How is it affecting your job and what they think
of you, How is it affecting if you have a
kid who's in school, How you'd like in any situation
in a family dynamic. I don't think that's discussed enough.
(26:46):
It's like, why didn't you say something? Or you should
use your voice, or this person finally opened up, and
that's some people hold things in, Like some people are
physically abused, but they don't want to embarrass their kid
and say it because will then know that one parent
or emotionally abuse it because of the kid like and
while it's great to protect kids, it's hard to know
(27:07):
what line to follow. Are you going to open your
mouth because you also can help other people, or are
you going to put you one child and what they
might think over all the other people. There are a
lot of things to navigate. And just even with this
these girls with the Danny Masterson thing, because they were
affecting their parents and the religion their parents. In this situation,
the girl is estrange now from her mother because her
(27:32):
mother's in scientology and you're trained that you're not to report.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, and from what I understand, also scientology doesn't believe
in psychology, so you couldn't go from you know, from
mental health assistance either.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Oh wow is that true? Wow?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I believe. I believe. So you know that that kind
of stuck out on me. He's like, oh, well, I
guess I'm not included. I'm not invited. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
So yeah, wow, so was It's a very very eye
opening thing. And also what it would feel like for
twenty years for the girls. Like I said, the guy
was walking free. Like I said, He's going to Starbucks,
ordering a latte, living a life. He has a wife,
he has kids. He's just living a life. I'm sure
it wasn't as easy since he was accused, but a
lot of people, you're a free person, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
It's it's even more than that for them, I would think,
because people who are traumatized and they have abusers, they
see them in the corner of their eye, in the
shadows all the time, right, They see them constantly. When
they're not there, they see them, they feel it.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, So I.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Can't imagine what that must have been like for these
women to not only have that, but also this tremendous,
tremendously large and powerful, wealthy organization behind him. Jesus, Yeah,
they follow me too, are they? You know? Now? Who's that?
Speaker 1 (28:55):
And who's Oh wow, now you're wrong, right wow? From
a house by the way, they could be thinking. They
could still be thinking that now.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
They absolutely could still be thinking that now. So that's
that's what I'm saying a lot of times, this this
type of abuse, the sexual abuse assault, it's not a
one time thing. Even if it is a one time,
it continues, it continues, and and that's what makes this
so damaging. It's so difficult to manage and to grow from.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, and that cross is gender. It's not just you
know men, men have been sexually assaulted also, right, and
it follows them as well. It's difficult for them as well. Right,
So it's it's not we don't we don't hear so
much about it.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
That's even worse because that's even more secretive. That's going
to be worse.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You hear about something doesn't mean it's not there.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, exactly, that's got to because that's more that's a
different level of shame. It's not as common, So that's
a different level of shame. Yeah, that's that's very interesting,
and I would imagine that they feel some level of vindication, validation.
And people always say, if you're holding on to anger
is like drinking poison, hope the other person dies. I
(30:04):
think in situations it is, but I think in those
situations there's a comfort to it. I think when you're like,
you know that that ultimately that person got what they deserve,
and like you kind of live in that. I don't
know what about that.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
That's a good question. That's hard to say, you know,
and hard to say what's healthier what's not? I guess
I guess the proof will be in the pudding. For them,
And that's probably a very personal thing. When you said that,
I thought back. I once saw an interview of a
Holocaust survivor and it was this Obviously, she was an
older woman and she had suffered immensely in a concentration
(30:44):
and concentration camp that she's five, and she said, if
I had the opportunity to talk to the commandant, I
would forgive him. I would forget. I don't want to
hold on to that hate. If I hold on to
that hate, it's going to keep me there, and it's
going to keep me miserable and angry and upset and
sad and all these things. And I just want to
(31:05):
forgive so I can move on. And God, I mean, listen,
god blasphem. If you're asking me if I could do
something like that.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
No, yeah, And I think there are levels like active mean,
hate is different than like smug, being smug, like reveling
in the fact that someone got with a fucking deserve,
because that I like, I would be like that if
I were those girls, and I would be like that
forever and there would be no amount, but I wouldn't
(31:33):
be like every day thinking of that. But that's how
I feel. That's why I was so wrong to even
entertain that letter and what Mila and Ashton did, because
I then put myself in the position and I'd want
him to get the worst possible treatment in jail, and
I wouldn't want him to die because it wouldn't be
enough suffering. So maybe that woman is way more evolved
than I am. But well, I see that change.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I think she's way more involved than most of us,
you know. I think, say, listen, we would never never
too late for us to evolve and to grow right
and too And I think that that's the ultimate thing
is apathy, is that you know what I'm You're not
part of my life anymore. You can't hurt me anymore,
You're not important to me anymore. Yeah, that's right, and
(32:15):
that there's something to aspire to, right. That's hard, that's
hard to do, hard to do.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, Yeah, I think there's a whole thing though, too,
with like it happens in obviously hedge funds and lawyers
in every industry. It happens in industry. I've seen it
firsthand with entertainment. People really feel that they're untouchable and
the power and the money and the smugness and the
Harvey Weinstein types and all of those guys that you know,
(32:44):
I've been I've been to a dinner with Harvey Weinstein
where he's bragging about how he you know, Michelle and
Barack Obama used to call him at night and have
him come to the you know, send over a movie
for them to screen late night at the White House.
And he's like, and Leo, who was sitting right there
was and Leo and he and I when we did
this movie and we won the award in j Lo
and Best and he loved it all like name dropping
(33:07):
and Gwynneth and this one, and like he thought he
was so hot. Ship right, Well, how much you talk
about cancel culture, it's not really in your business. You're
not really talking to entertainers.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
There is definitely that conflict that we're in, right, We're
supposed to be so open and free and be you
and body positivity and all that, but yet there's a
whole clash of other things. And and I think that
we we we are going through as a as a society,
as as people kind of going through this growing pains
of who we want to be and how we want
to be or how accepting do we want to be
(33:48):
really and that is that push pull. It's hard, It's
definitely hard, and it's it's so sad. I heard something
on the media the other day that family members aren't
talking to each other because of politics, right, because of health? Yeah,
and how awful is that that you're that you're a fan,
(34:09):
you lose a family member because you don't agree politically
with their guy. I think I think that so much
of it if we look at why now, right, Why
is it now? Why is it not before? Because I
think we've gone through things like this before, but it's
it does feel different now. It feels more severe. You know,
(34:32):
you know, you say you are what you eat, right,
If you eat healthy, you're going to be healthy. Well,
I think that we have to be very careful what
we digest in the media, what news we're digesting. And
this twenty four news cycle.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
What's no one does everyone says that was what I'm
saying about reality TV. You fight in the ocean. No
one's going to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
That's the problem, right, because because then we we just
listen to these talking heads that feed us information and
we don't really think critically about it.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, But first of all, it used to be that
journalists had to have multiple sources that were verified. Right now,
anybody can just say. A source said, if you're reading
Vanity Fair or like People magazine or The New York Times,
they have to have legitimate sources. They have a legal department.
I don't know why it differs and why everybody doesn't
have to have that. But if you're reading other magazines
(35:19):
or blog, there's no A source said, you could be
the sore. I could be, like anybody could be. So
a source said, who's usually their publicists? Their sister, their mother,
their brother, their publicist, right, their their agent or.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Famous line, what's the famous preamble to any A lot
of people are.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Saying they they they well know, but TikTok now what's
going on is TikTok and Instagram their journalist? These are
citizens journalists. These are people and a lot of them
are smart, and a lot of them do their research.
You know what they're talking about, but a lot of
them don't. So people are just sitting here and they're reporters.
They become reporters, but they have a million followers. They're
(35:58):
reporting on different types of news, entertainment, politics, cars, watches, whatever.
But there their people I listen to what some of
them say. It's insane, So I guess you're right. It's
the same thing with NoHo to trust.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I don't listen to. But there's no nutrition label on
things that we read, right.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Well, no, and also it's confirmation bias. You're listening to
people that say things you want to hear back.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
To your point, absolutely, and that's too.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, that's why when we were growing up, not to
be like back and mind it. When we were growing up,
the news wasn't what it is now, where you'll have
like a person on CNN and be like like about
something about about Trump or over on Fox News, they're
like chuckling, you know, like how Megan Megan Kelly were
like that moron. You know, like it's not it wasn't
like that we were growing up. It was more, you know, moderate,
(36:48):
It wasn't like it's just you turn on to Fox
if you want people to bash everybody on CNN or
Biden and just make fun of him, and you turn
on to CNN and to see people make fun of Trump.
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
It's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, and it's not and
it's not just us anymore because where you know, there
are other foreign nationals we're getting involved, right, And who's
social media is so interesting? Who's real, who's not?
Speaker 3 (37:14):
What?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Our bots what aren't? Right? So where are we getting
our information and getting your information from. I have had
conversations with people, and sometimes I'll engage up my patients
and you know, just and I and I do it
with playful banter. I try to as much as I
possibly can. And I'm a big teaser, so I'll tease
them about it. But when I hear them say certain things,
(37:35):
well I'll quote somebody. I'll say, that's really interesting. Where'd
you get that? Let's go to that quote. Let's find
that quote. Let's look for that study that they quoted.
Let's find we find the study. Let's read the study.
I'll read it with you. Well, I say that quote
is from a lot of times that the quote is
from the hypothesis of the study. It's not the reason
the study. And you can say anything you want and
(37:57):
a hypothesis because it's a question.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Well, when we were growing up, I think that things
like college, the concept of going to college and the
purity of that process seemed legitimate, and so the concept
of politics seemed not fair. It was always like mud slinging,
but you kind of thought there were two candidates. You
could really get an understanding from the three channels on
television of who they were, and it wasn't like a
lot of propaganda and marketing. And the reason I say
(38:22):
both of those areas is because drugs, big pharma, all
of it. But like with college, the colleges that when
I was in college were for morons, I mean you
literally they were known that you would have to just
sign your name on the SAT and you could get
in are now good schools. I don't think that the
education is that different. I think it's the money and
the marketing. So what I'm saying is like you're voting,
(38:43):
but you're voting based on marketing campaigns because the more
things you've heard about something, you're just it's just like
a commercial. So it's like, why are you buying the
air mez bag over the Chanel bag because of the
marketing campaign, like it's not because of the actual construction
of the leather. So I think it's scary because people
don't realize that it's not that easy to really get
(39:07):
good information because it's marketing. Marketing is massive. Everything is marketing.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Absolutely, and I'm proud of saying some of a girl, dad,
I know those two bags.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Oh good, good, good good. Your wife would want you
to know too. So what do you think about people
who've gone people who are going through a nasty breakup
or uh, infidelity or something really toxic living under the
same roof? What circumstances and what circumstances Would that be
(39:37):
a good idea?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Would they be a good idea?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Not too many. I hope it's a big roof, A
big what a big roof?
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Oh big?
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard. You know, it's it's
interesting because I have been involved with high conflict families. Yes,
and you see this dynamic that occurs where they they
it may be both, maybe one party, it may it
may not be both, but they don't want to let go.
(40:08):
They don't want to let go. Remember what I said,
the opposite of love isn't isn't hate? Right, They want
to be relevant and they want to stay in that
person's life. So if I can't get you to love me,
I'll get you to hate me because I'm still I'm
still getting you.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
You're still in the game, still on the ride, I'm.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Still in it. I'm still in it, and you're still
in it with me, and that's really difficult to break out.
You know what. You define yourself as part of that
relationship and really in that relationship, and you never want
to leave it, and even when you hate that person,
you don't want to leave it because they're part of
your life and you don't want to give that out.
Now that happens with kids, without kids, with business, without business,
(40:48):
with finances with it, with finances are involved or not,
it's very hard people to give that up. They don't
want to more in that loss for whatever reason. And
then we could definitely talk about that more, because that's
a lot, that's a big that's a that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
But yeah, no, because for me, I feel like if
you genuinely, if it's really emotionally unhealthy for you and
there's been something really toxic, I my experience is that
the only reason that someone would stay would be for
financial reasons they can't afford to leave, or that there's
that abandonment issue with the courts will say that one
(41:23):
party abandoned by leaving the house, because you're not.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Discounting for sure, right absolutely, but sometimes psychologically there are
other things involved and then the personal involved. We didn't
be aware of that.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
That's what I was going to say, it's underlying.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Ok. I'd love to talk more about that future.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Absolutely, Okay, Well, yeah, there's there's divorced stuff. I've dabbled
in talking about doing a divorce show, so you know,
we could talk about that more, like different divorce topics.
Thank you, Matt, talking you did great? Oh, thank you,
thank you great, really good conversation.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Excellent take care.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Doctor Matt was great. I really you know, I think
it's a dangerous game for people like me to just
opine if I have influence and if people are gonna
think what I'm saying is true, and I know people
will argue with me. And I'm not saying he knows everything,
but he's a trained professional h on a lot of
the matters in life and popular culture that we talk about.
(42:25):
So I think it's good to weigh in with someone
about some of the things that I've talked about with
you and just check in. You know, it's it's good
you hear your own voice, the voices inside your own head.
That's a very dangerous game. So even and when we
talk about things that are in popular culture, it's not
like to gossip, it's what does it mean? Meaning? The
Ashton Kutcher and Mila thing made me learn something. Maybe
(42:47):
the Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas divorce made me learn something.
Maybe the way Megan and Harry act in their lives
lives make me learn something. The Kardashian what you know?
So it's good to use these popular culture sure of
things that we all know about and think we have
knowledge about to learn. So I think that that's you know,
there weren't the advand of Pump of it all, all
(43:08):
of it, So I thought it was great
So welcome for everyone listening. This is doctor Matt, who's
someone who I don't personally work with, meaning he hasn't
quote unquote treated me. We've spoken because we've connected on
another matter that does isn't about me. But I so
I met doctor Matt in a way that maybe I'll
(00:33):
tell you another day. It's something like it's not a secret,
but it's a little prime kind of private for now.
So but I like, I like doctor Matt. And you
give your resume, like not long, but just like, what's
your I'm psychologist.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I'm in private practice. I've been in private practice since
ninety nine, which is obscene to me. I can't believe
how long I've been doing this.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
But yeah, and what percentage? What do you mostly work on?
It's fan I work.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
A lot with anxiety and depression, and a lot with families,
all aspects of families. So I see a lot of kids.
I do a lot of parenting, a lot of emerging
young adults, a lot of twenties. The twenty somethings are
coming into my practice more than ever before. Kids are
also couples.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
And couples, So you have like a what percentages kids?
What percentages or kids slash adolescents or percentages come.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Yeah, you know, whenever you get a child. Part of
my practice, I don't really just treat the child because
I gotta treat the whole family. I gotta treat everybody right,
so everybody comes in, so I make sure of it
so it ranges. I'm about fifty to fifty with kids
to adults.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Okay, So since I was interviewing Raquel now Rachel from
vander Pump Rules, I mentioned it to you and I
asked you to watch the reunion of vander Pump Rules.
So you watched the three parts of the reunion. I did, yes, okay,
So to get everyone caught up, because I was trying
(02:05):
to get my head straight about what I thought I
was seeing, I asked doctor Matt to watch the reunion
because it seemed different than even the Housewives reunions I've seen,
where it is a beatdown in many different directions and
it is not exactly positive and it's not necessarily feel good.
I felt that it's been a little bit like there's
(02:26):
always like a toast at the end in some version
of a resolution. And I watched this and it felt
to me like a beatdown of a girl that people
do not like, made many mistakes great, but I just
was watching it on its face as a beat down
my words. She wanted to leave, and then she was
asked to come back, so I asked doctor Matt to
weigh in. So I then thought he'd be interesting to
(02:50):
just have on this show, not just about that, but
just about other things going on, whether it's Danny Masterson
or Cancel culture or scientology. I wanted to sort of
try this out because I think think a normal personal,
lay person discussing something is different than a professional person
that is thinking about this kind of stuff all day.
And that's an expert, not saying doctor Matt knows it all,
(03:12):
but I'm sure his opinion, you know, take his opinion
and see what you think. So this is doctor Matt,
and I guess we'll start with that. So you watched
that reunion, and I had research and know a bit
about emotional abuse personally, and I wanted to know what
you thought about that, like at that level. And you
said something very interesting, which was that it did not
(03:34):
seem like there was any goal or aim for resolution, right.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Right, Yeah, it was. It seemed to me it was
just a hamster wheel of hate. Right, we were never
getting off that, and they had a lot to be
angry about, not to say that they were, you know,
unnecessarily upset or angry, but there was no goal to that.
I unless, you know, I've been thinking about that, and
I think it's because of the name nature of the beast.
(04:01):
Maybe the goal is to get ratings, simply that, right,
so what are we going to do to get ratings?
And maybe right so, you know, I might be looking
at it differently, and what I would like to see
as a goal of some kind of conclusion, of some
kind of satisfaction, feeling better about a horrible event or
something that happened to you that was horrible. This reminded
(04:24):
me of Roman time, sending people, you know, slaves into
the colosseum to get slaughtered by the lions and we're
in the audience watching.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
By the way, it's so funny because I was talking
to someone using the same gladiator reference. I can't believe
you just said that. We've never said that to each other.
I thought the same thing. It's yeah, And the funny
thing is that you said, like, maybe it's about ratings,
which is so like cute because you don't watch these shows,
but the person who is the executive producer of the
show said that the show was on the verge of cancelation,
(04:56):
possibly being canceled, and that this saved the show, that
this scandal saved the show.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
So it's just funny and it's interesting to me too,
because you know, there are other shows like Intervention or
Hoarders where they're actually working through problems.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Right they're working through issues or conflicts, and it doesn't
necessarily have to be I'm going to slow to you.
It doesn't have to be all this high amount of
conflict watching people say things that maybe you always wanted
to say to somebody but didn't either have the guts
or it didn't want to know, have the ramifications of it.
So we sort of kind of vicariously enjoy watching someone
(05:32):
do that. But I think that there's more to it
than that, and I think there's an opportunity there for growth.
You know that. I tell my patients a lot. I say,
when you're angry at somebody and you have a five
gallon bucket of shit and you want to throw it
on them, there's no way you're not gonna get splattered
back on yourself. There's just no way, and I don't
(05:56):
think I would ever choose to do something that I'm
gonna get shit on myself for right, I want to
avoid it.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Well and the funny, Well, it is two things. One
is I don't blame the players, because I didn't blame
uh Russell Crowe for going into the pit and killing.
It was kill or be killed. I don't blame the players.
And it's funny because I said something about two women
on another show that said to each other, they're gonna
get this other girl wasted, and then one of their
(06:24):
sons forced himself upon her behind a door and that
was aired like and I never have said their names
because I'm not really blaming them. When you're in this game,
when you're in that colisseum, and I've been in that colosseum,
I've said things I would never normally say. I've done
things that you're in and I've I've not liked people
that I would normally like, because when you're on the field,
(06:48):
it's just a different game there, and it is for ratings,
whether it's even it's not like on the forefront. You're
not sitting there every second, so you just know what
the goal is of what you're doing. It's to always
say the thing you like, we hold back in life.
So I think it's all what I think is interesting,
and everyone's thinking about the people. And yes, we have
to think about the production because the people that are
(07:10):
the grown ups that are responsible and what they're putting out.
But if people aren't buying it, if people aren't buying it,
then there's nothing to sell. It's supply and demand. So
I think we have to look at the viewer that's
consuming this as normal because I said, it's almost like
the consumer. The viewer thinks of them. They think of
it as reality, but they kind of think of them
(07:30):
almost as actors. They don't think of it as like
real real. It's real, but it's not real real, So
they will allow for something to go down that they
would never allow in their own lives if they were
standing by. So it's like, I think we're consuming things.
And I just think that that podcast made a lot
of people reach out to me and start thinking I
didn't see it that way. They just were thinking this
(07:52):
is an entertainment vehicle, like gladiators being ripping each other's
arms off, But when they really thought this is a
daughter could be a mother one day, a purse, a
human being at the baseline, that was why it was
the upside down.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, and and not just the people who were attacked,
But I would have I would have preferred to also
hear more from the people who were attacking about what
exactly got them so upset? What exactly because you know,
this is the cheating. It seems like it's in a
lot of their lives. You know, it's in the in
the past and the histories of the show. Yes it was,
and maybe it was was more personal. But why was
(08:25):
it personal? And how was it personal? And how did
it affect them? And how did they how were they
afraid that it was going to affect them going forward? Right?
So that I think is so important, especially with like
healthy conflict resolution, because we don't have healthy conflict resolution
right now. A lot that doesn't get demonstrated too often.
(08:45):
Many battles are fought for for us instead of instead
of talking about it, people pull up their tense stakes
and leave, instead of managing and dealing with, Hey, this
has hurt me, this upset me, or this hurt me
upset me. But instead of saying it hurt me, upset me,
I'm going to attack you and I'm gonna make you
hurt and make you feel the way I feel.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
They need a moderator to do you have needed the
host to facilitate.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
That, somebody that because because when you're emotional, you're obviously
not thinking that in your emotional I'm gonna hurt, I
want to hurt. I'm hurt, I'm wanna hurt you. I'm
gonna make it fair and i'm gonna go I'm gonna
beat you, gonna win. So yeah, absolutely a moderator will
be important, someone who would be important to direct that. Yeah,
so it's more healthy. So it's an opportunity this way. Look,
(09:31):
I'm I'm a result based right, So I want people
to leave that situation feeling a little bit better, feeling
a little bit you know, I've grown a little bit
from the situation. This is a challenge and I've grown
from it. I can't imagine anybody who was launching all
those attacks felt better afterwards, tired, exhausted, but I don't
know if they felt actually better about it anything.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, And it's funny because there's a guy in this
Tom who's the villain. Also, and I had a guy,
a person yesterday, I had a person on this podcast
who was on a show with Tom as a roommate,
and he said it was this like sort of competition space,
this like boot campy type of army military thing. And
(10:14):
this guy Tyler, said that Tom was a good guy,
that he was loyal, that you could tell in these
games that he's the type who really went for you
and he got other people's backs, and like he too
is a gladiator in the middle of it. Now, I
know he's in a relationship, and I'll get into that
with you. He's in a relationship with someone that he's
(10:34):
lived with for ten years and now they've gone through
this and they're still living together, which I really question
because I can't imagine anyone who would live with someone
that they didn't have to live with, and I mean
children the abandonment issue, where like it's called abandonment in
the courts or some very serious diar reason. And I
think that the reason they are living together, and I
think that the reason he is also the villain in
(10:57):
this manner is because you do different things on these
television shows and you would in your normal life, as
I'm saying everybody does, and that shows based on alcohol
and affairs so this guy said, he's a human being,
and he said, it really bothers me because he had
an affair. He cheated. Now, by the way, he's not married,
he doesn't have kids. I'm not saying it's not bad,
(11:18):
but I don't think it's as bad as being married
with kids. That's just my opinion. And so this guy
Tyler was saying because of Cancel culture, like this guy's
getting so abused and other people that talk to him
are getting abused. And Rachel had said to me that
people that follow her or comments on something get abused,
Like we're really in this abusive culture. And he said,
(11:42):
people have affairs, people do bad things, but this he
has to live on a national stage, same with Rachel,
like they have to live it on a everyone has
to weigh in their opinion. And it's online bullying like
abusing these people. So where's the line. Why is that? Okay, Yeah,
he cheated, it's.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Bad, right, right, And maybe because he's a public public
figure of sorts, so it gives him access. It gives
people access to him where they where they can do
that for sure. And I think that I think that
we have that feeling when we could you know, they
open up themselves to us. So I'm going to share
my opinion, and I'm going to share how I feel,
(12:20):
and and and and isn't that symbiotic? Don't they work
that as well? If if he doesn't have an audience,
then he becomes irrelevant, right.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
He's Yeah, it's the rose with the pedal and the thorns.
You can't like you walked in to be famous, but like,
I don't know where the line. I don't know where
the line is. And I take a lot of ship
and get beaten up pretty good too.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, you know, it's funny because I was I was
reading I've been reading some of the comments of people
have written after your podcast. Yeah, I'm trying to do
a little you know, due diligence before I come on here. Yeah,
And one thing I have to say, you definitely get
people talking, right, good, bad, angry, happy, hate, love, You
(13:00):
definitely get people talking. And the interesting thing and I
and I talk about this a lot in my practice,
and I ask everybody, you know, what's the opposite of hate?
It's absolutely you know, and they always say love, love
and hate opposites, and they're really not, you know, they're
they're very closely related. They're very strong emotions. You don't
love a little you love, right, and you don't hate,
you hate the they're like very close, right. So the
(13:21):
opposite of that is apathy. It's just not difference in difference.
And you know, I think when you're in the public eye,
that's that's that's the worst indifference. Irrelevance is the worst, right,
So so it kind of works like, you know, are
these people in the reality are they really saying what
they're really feeling? Are they playing that game? As you say?
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You know, you mean that that indifference meaning that the
people don't give a shit about you. Like the fact
that I get people heeded hating me or loving me
is doing is being successful and being a public person,
if they didn't give a shit at all, Yes, but
the public person needs to be indifferent and have apathy
means to like some I do. Like I was talking
to this guy, Tyler Cameron. He's a guy who is
(14:05):
from the Bachelorette. He's become very successful, he's beloved. He
hates the social media aspect. He said he got anxiety
for the first time ever, uh, because of reading comments
and things like that. And I would say that people
always ask me, and I think it might. I think this.
I think it has with my childhood and seeing a
lot of abuse I don't love. I get a little
(14:25):
anxiety when something's going sideways for me because it does happen,
because I do have an opinion. I'm out one of
these people just posting about flowers and jelly beans and rainbows.
But when that happens, I grab that wheel and like
I don't hold too tight and I don't hold too loose.
I just like I'm like, all right, we got something,
let's fucking deal with this. So I'm not a pert
(14:46):
or even though that when the Rachel thing, because I
took on a lot of hate, and her own you know,
team said to me, like, we appreciate what we saw.
You took a lot of heat, like they took a
lot of heat. But also one hundred percent of people
hated her. Now fifty percent of people hate, you know,
maybe even though so they're happy, maybe even fewer. I
actually don't even think it's fifty percent. It's maybe thirty
(15:06):
percent or something twenty. But it helped her. It gave
her something to go, somewhere to go, and I have
evolved into a new conversation for she was sort of
stuck in like being in this mental you know facility.
But they said you took on a lot of heat,
which I did. But like when I get slapped in
those comments, it's like a ball, a tennis ball. I
just like I just I like I serve it, you know,
(15:28):
hit it, which is.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Healthy, which is which is good? You know. I like
to think that I equate things with I love to eat.
I'm a big eater, right, So I love chocolate. I
cann have chocolate all the time. There are people in
the world who I've met who actually don't like chocolate,
which I don't get. I don't understand. Yeah, although those
are the people I want to go out to dessert
with because then they're not gonna take mine and we're good, right.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
So no, because they're gonna order some apple dessert. And
that's more annoying because you.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Don't get that it's fine, it's all.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
No, you don't share. So that therapy.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
There, right by time to be selfish when not having dessert,
especially chocolate. Right, So, Okay, as good as chocolate is,
as wonderful as chocolate is, even chocolate is not universally loved,
right and even as wonderful as you are and wonderful
as I am. Well, how can I be so narcissistic
to think that I'm as good as chocolate?
Speaker 1 (16:21):
So I'm interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
I'm not going to be universally loved. We have to
be okay with that. Yes, okay, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. It's a great because
chocolate's pretty fucking fabulous, So that's all great. Yeah, yeah,
that's a good one. But I like dark chocolate, you know.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
As I've gotten older.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Dok, chocolate is yeah, I like, let's go all the way,
do it. So have you been watching the Danny Masterson stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I've quite a little bit here and yes, okay, have
you actually watched?
Speaker 1 (17:02):
I was.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I was really enthralled with the Leah Rimoni series.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Oh really yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
What a what a crusader? How brave?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Amazed? I agree, that's ballsy to talk about it. And
I know her. I met her when we were both
pas on Saved by the Bet. I mean, I was
sorry when I was a PA Unsaved by the Belt
and she was a guest actress and I met her
and she was very cool and she was in some
shitty car and I remember thinking she was rich because
she was on one week she was an actress, like
going on television on a show, and she said, if
eating tacos out of the back of my car is rich,
(17:35):
then I'm rich. And I've always liked her, I've always
respected her, and I actually a lot of people were
saying she should come on here because I've been talking
about I've been referencing her, and I know her. We
respect each other. Maybe you'll come on for a little
bit of it. If she comes on, because I didn't
know you were such a fan. Yeah, she's really amazing.
She's very real and yeah she said it. Once you
(17:56):
say something, it's amazing, like you then have the freedom
you've you've I've ripped the band aid off and now
she's like, you know, fire hydrant just coming out. But
this Danny Masterson thing, Oh, that's what I was gonna
ask you. Do you do you deal with people victims
of sexual abuse?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
I have, yes.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, So it was a very interesting ride I took
with this thing because a lot of things I learned
about from social media. It's like a snippet. It's not
something that was on my radar. Okay. So I think
that in the past I had heard that this guy
from that seventy show had been had violated women or
was accused of it, but it wasn't It just didn't
wasn't a story I was following. I don't think the
(18:34):
women had names or it just was something in the background.
So all of a sudden last week it becomes that
this guy is convicted, and literally I didn't remember when
I had first read it, and I did not know
this happened twenty years ago, but maybe you know. So
there's a separate conversation about these women and having to
endure this road of twenty years of torture in their minds,
(18:55):
and like it's this guy's running around and he's at
Starbucks and he's living a life, and he's acting on
a show with Ashton Kutcher and all the ranch and
all this stuff. But like when I first heard that
Ashton and Mela, who by the way, made this thing
much bigger, people are saying it's great almost what they did,
because it made this such a topic of awareness. So
even though people are very mad at them, they brought
(19:17):
awareness to something that people would have talked about for
two days and then stopped. So when I thought about
the mother contacting people that knew him to reduce a
sentence in and of itself. It made sense to me,
like it just the concept made sense. I didn't read
the stories about the girls. It wasn't human to me
or personal. It just was like and everybody went crazy.
(19:38):
And then I started doing a deeper look at it,
and Christina Ricci came out and said, you know, we
all know these guys that seem like awesome guys to us,
that do shitty things to other people. That doesn't mean
that they're good people because they've been nice to us.
And there's so many of those guys in Hollywood that
I've met, like all the me too guys I've met,
(19:59):
really all of them. And then and then I was
watching other videos of people saying how the percentage of
convictions that actually happened, how small that is, And then
how small the percentage of people that actually report it
because they don't think, you know, and all these things
that we all already know they're going to be doubted,
and then a person, it's the burden on the person
(20:21):
to prove it. And so I did a full rotation
to be like, I fully get why everyone was so enraged,
because it's sort of belittling something that's so hard to
get done that these women fought for twenty years to
get done. So I just kind of wanted to talk
to you about that whole thing.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Sure, sure, you know, the the damage that gets done
to victims is tremendous. It's tremendous. And it's not just
a physical it's that the emotional damage are wounds that
you know, really don't go away, get they change, they grow,
but the damage is tremendous because is it becomes such
(21:03):
a personal thing for them that they blame themselves right
or they find a lot how could this have been different?
What could I have done differently? They try to rewrite it.
You know, we all do that with certain when bad
things happen to us, we say to it, how could
I have avoided? What could have done differently? And to
(21:24):
make matters worse, they're told things many times and I
don't I can't say what has happened in these cases,
but many times they're told, think you deserve this, you
wanted this. Their bodies could have you know, betrayed them
and reacted in certain ways that think they want it,
even though the right So it's very confusing for victims
(21:48):
of this, because you know, if I didn't want this,
why did my body react to it? Or why do
I wear what I wore? Or you know that they
said that they they look at me in a certain way,
and which is sometimes okay, but not when it goes
over the edge.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Right, I mean before the line we're partying, we're drinking,
having fun, I was wearing a sexy top and then
it turned and like there's a line.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Before during after matter, right, it's just and.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Then why didn't I freak out and call the cops
a minute after? Like whatever?
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah? Absolutely absolutely, and and maybe didn't happen that way?
And look, you know, our brain does some fascinating things
when we're faced with trauma. Shuts off, right because they
don't doesn't necessarily want to see it or you know,
react to it that way, right, We want to shut
it down. So when we shut it down, there are
gaps in our memory. There are gaps and what's going
(22:38):
to happen, And then we fill it in with what
we think would have been. But that's just a conjecture.
So then it's like, well, maybe I maybe I didn't
fight them, and maybe I didn't you know, say no
or and maybe it was. It was very clear. And
there's a responsibility that I think we all have in
relationships to make sure that you know that we're healthy
and we're in a good place, and we're interested in
(23:00):
what's happening, and we all want that. But I think
what happens after sometimes is this lack of support that
people feel or that they imagine will happen. So they
don't share it, and they don't want anyone to know,
so they don't tell anybody because they're they're afraid that
(23:21):
people can say, well, you deserved it, or why did
you wear that, or why did you go to his householdlone?
Why did you go to a hotel room alone right
and when? Or why did you leave your drink unattended?
Don't you know we told you that to leave your
drink unattended. My girls went off to college. I taught
them this is how you hold your drink right, not
like this, like this, and if someone makes a mistake,
(23:44):
someone does this, then they may I messed up because
I held my drink wrong. And so this lack of
support for themselves that they give, and then they project
that to other people, thinking that they're not going to
support them either it's damageing that abuse happens long longer,
all right, the effects have it. It's a ripple effect, right,
it happens so much longer and afterwards. So it's so
(24:06):
hard for people to come forward.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
Also for you to have to deal with proving it,
go back and find all the ema what happened there
and what time and the detail like it's on it's
dumped on the person that it happened to because they
have to figure it out.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
And I had.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Experience with the situation where I had to be a
lawyer with multiple books and multiple you know, and the
burden is on you. And but what you were saying
is interesting. It's there's something that happens with people. Well
two things. One, there's like a reflex that you have
about the way that you feel about yourself that's not normal,
(24:42):
and you intellectually know that it's not right. Like let's
say for years someone told you you were disgusting or
something about you like or uh, you left the house
for fifteen minutes, so you're a bad parent or stuff like,
even though it's ridiculous that you know, but if someone
like tells you or does something to you, love long
enough you start you have like a reflex that thinks
(25:02):
that that's real, and it takes a long time to
shake that up. It's not something you can just have
even a professional say to you that's not correct, and
you're just gonna be like, okay, now, I think deffinitely.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
It's like have Lovian, Yeah, well we we have a
confirmation bias, right, So you know, confirmation bias is super interesting,
and then it's it's it's pretty hard to buy out of,
to get out of. So the confirmation bias is if
I have a feeling about who I am, if I
have an idea about anything, and you can see that
with our political system right now, how separate our political
(25:33):
system is. So if I have a feeling about anything
about who I am, I only look at information that's
going to confirm that and I'm going to ignore any
information that might refute it. And so that can go
either way. So if I feel like I'm a piece
of shit, I'm going to find things. I'm going to
see things, eyes be wide open for evidence to support.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
That ape.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, or like yeah, I got a
speeding to I'm not a good person, or yeah, late,
I'm not a good person or whatever it is, or
I left my kid home for fifteen minutes, I'm not
a good person, and all these different things they build up,
and the fact that you know I'm doing this and
I'm doing that that is good and I'm taking care
of this. These people that are good fly out the window.
(26:18):
They don't matter because it doesn't conform to this confirmation
bias that I have, this bias I have that I'm
not good.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Well. I also thought about this thing being the victim
of any type of abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, any
kind of abuse that people don't always want to say
something because of how it affects other people around them.
How is it affecting your job and what they think
of you, How is it affecting if you have a
kid who's in school, How you'd like in any situation
in a family dynamic. I don't think that's discussed enough.
(26:46):
It's like, why didn't you say something? Or you should
use your voice, or this person finally opened up, and
that's some people hold things in, Like some people are
physically abused, but they don't want to embarrass their kid
and say it because will then know that one parent
or emotionally abuse it because of the kid like and
while it's great to protect kids, it's hard to know
(27:07):
what line to follow. Are you going to open your
mouth because you also can help other people, or are
you going to put you one child and what they
might think over all the other people. There are a
lot of things to navigate. And just even with this
these girls with the Danny Masterson thing, because they were
affecting their parents and the religion their parents. In this situation,
the girl is estrange now from her mother because her
(27:32):
mother's in scientology and you're trained that you're not to report.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, and from what I understand, also scientology doesn't believe
in psychology, so you couldn't go from you know, from
mental health assistance either.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Oh wow is that true? Wow?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
I believe. I believe. So you know that that kind
of stuck out on me. He's like, oh, well, I
guess I'm not included. I'm not invited. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
So yeah, wow, so was It's a very very eye
opening thing. And also what it would feel like for
twenty years for the girls. Like I said, the guy
was walking free. Like I said, He's going to Starbucks,
ordering a latte, living a life. He has a wife,
he has kids. He's just living a life. I'm sure
it wasn't as easy since he was accused, but a
lot of people, you're a free person, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
It's it's even more than that for them, I would think,
because people who are traumatized and they have abusers, they
see them in the corner of their eye, in the
shadows all the time, right, They see them constantly. When
they're not there, they see them, they feel it.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, So I.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
Can't imagine what that must have been like for these
women to not only have that, but also this tremendous,
tremendously large and powerful, wealthy organization behind him. Jesus, Yeah,
they follow me too, are they? You know? Now? Who's that?
Speaker 1 (28:55):
And who's Oh wow, now you're wrong, right wow? From
a house by the way, they could be thinking. They
could still be thinking that now.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
They absolutely could still be thinking that now. So that's
that's what I'm saying a lot of times, this this
type of abuse, the sexual abuse assault, it's not a
one time thing. Even if it is a one time,
it continues, it continues, and and that's what makes this
so damaging. It's so difficult to manage and to grow from.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, and that cross is gender. It's not just you
know men, men have been sexually assaulted also, right, and
it follows them as well. It's difficult for them as well. Right,
So it's it's not we don't we don't hear so
much about it.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
That's even worse because that's even more secretive. That's going
to be worse.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
You hear about something doesn't mean it's not there.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, exactly, that's got to because that's more that's a
different level of shame. It's not as common, So that's
a different level of shame. Yeah, that's that's very interesting,
and I would imagine that they feel some level of vindication, validation.
And people always say, if you're holding on to anger
is like drinking poison, hope the other person dies. I
(30:04):
think in situations it is, but I think in those
situations there's a comfort to it. I think when you're like,
you know that that ultimately that person got what they deserve,
and like you kind of live in that. I don't
know what about that.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
That's a good question. That's hard to say, you know,
and hard to say what's healthier what's not? I guess
I guess the proof will be in the pudding. For them,
And that's probably a very personal thing. When you said that,
I thought back. I once saw an interview of a
Holocaust survivor and it was this Obviously, she was an
older woman and she had suffered immensely in a concentration
(30:44):
and concentration camp that she's five, and she said, if
I had the opportunity to talk to the commandant, I
would forgive him. I would forget. I don't want to
hold on to that hate. If I hold on to
that hate, it's going to keep me there, and it's
going to keep me miserable and angry and upset and
sad and all these things. And I just want to
(31:05):
forgive so I can move on. And God, I mean, listen,
god blasphem. If you're asking me if I could do
something like that.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
No, yeah, And I think there are levels like active mean,
hate is different than like smug, being smug, like reveling
in the fact that someone got with a fucking deserve,
because that I like, I would be like that if
I were those girls, and I would be like that
forever and there would be no amount, but I wouldn't
(31:33):
be like every day thinking of that. But that's how
I feel. That's why I was so wrong to even
entertain that letter and what Mila and Ashton did, because
I then put myself in the position and I'd want
him to get the worst possible treatment in jail, and
I wouldn't want him to die because it wouldn't be
enough suffering. So maybe that woman is way more evolved
than I am. But well, I see that change.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
I think she's way more involved than most of us,
you know. I think, say, listen, we would never never
too late for us to evolve and to grow right
and too And I think that that's the ultimate thing
is apathy, is that you know what I'm You're not
part of my life anymore. You can't hurt me anymore,
You're not important to me anymore. Yeah, that's right, and
(32:15):
that there's something to aspire to, right. That's hard, that's
hard to do, hard to do.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Yeah, Yeah, I think there's a whole thing though, too,
with like it happens in obviously hedge funds and lawyers
in every industry. It happens in industry. I've seen it
firsthand with entertainment. People really feel that they're untouchable and
the power and the money and the smugness and the
Harvey Weinstein types and all of those guys that you know,
(32:44):
I've been I've been to a dinner with Harvey Weinstein
where he's bragging about how he you know, Michelle and
Barack Obama used to call him at night and have
him come to the you know, send over a movie
for them to screen late night at the White House.
And he's like, and Leo, who was sitting right there
was and Leo and he and I when we did
this movie and we won the award in j Lo
and Best and he loved it all like name dropping
(33:07):
and Gwynneth and this one, and like he thought he
was so hot. Ship right, Well, how much you talk
about cancel culture, it's not really in your business. You're
not really talking to entertainers.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
There is definitely that conflict that we're in, right, We're
supposed to be so open and free and be you
and body positivity and all that, but yet there's a
whole clash of other things. And and I think that
we we we are going through as a as a society,
as as people kind of going through this growing pains
of who we want to be and how we want
to be or how accepting do we want to be
(33:48):
really and that is that push pull. It's hard, It's
definitely hard, and it's it's so sad. I heard something
on the media the other day that family members aren't
talking to each other because of politics, right, because of health? Yeah,
and how awful is that that you're that you're a fan,
(34:09):
you lose a family member because you don't agree politically
with their guy. I think I think that so much
of it if we look at why now, right, Why
is it now? Why is it not before? Because I
think we've gone through things like this before, but it's
it does feel different now. It feels more severe. You know,
(34:32):
you know, you say you are what you eat, right,
If you eat healthy, you're going to be healthy. Well,
I think that we have to be very careful what
we digest in the media, what news we're digesting. And
this twenty four news cycle.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
What's no one does everyone says that was what I'm
saying about reality TV. You fight in the ocean. No
one's going to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
That's the problem, right, because because then we we just
listen to these talking heads that feed us information and
we don't really think critically about it.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, But first of all, it used to be that
journalists had to have multiple sources that were verified. Right now,
anybody can just say. A source said, if you're reading
Vanity Fair or like People magazine or The New York Times,
they have to have legitimate sources. They have a legal department.
I don't know why it differs and why everybody doesn't
have to have that. But if you're reading other magazines
(35:19):
or blog, there's no A source said, you could be
the sore. I could be, like anybody could be. So
a source said, who's usually their publicists? Their sister, their mother,
their brother, their publicist, right, their their agent or.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Famous line, what's the famous preamble to any A lot
of people are.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Saying they they they well know, but TikTok now what's
going on is TikTok and Instagram their journalist? These are
citizens journalists. These are people and a lot of them
are smart, and a lot of them do their research.
You know what they're talking about, but a lot of
them don't. So people are just sitting here and they're reporters.
They become reporters, but they have a million followers. They're
(35:58):
reporting on different types of news, entertainment, politics, cars, watches, whatever.
But there their people I listen to what some of
them say. It's insane, So I guess you're right. It's
the same thing with NoHo to trust.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
I don't listen to. But there's no nutrition label on
things that we read, right.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Well, no, and also it's confirmation bias. You're listening to
people that say things you want to hear back.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
To your point, absolutely, and that's too.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Well, that's why when we were growing up, not to
be like back and mind it. When we were growing up,
the news wasn't what it is now, where you'll have
like a person on CNN and be like like about
something about about Trump or over on Fox News, they're
like chuckling, you know, like how Megan Megan Kelly were
like that moron. You know, like it's not it wasn't
like that we were growing up. It was more, you know, moderate,
(36:48):
It wasn't like it's just you turn on to Fox
if you want people to bash everybody on CNN or
Biden and just make fun of him, and you turn
on to CNN and to see people make fun of Trump.
It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
It's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, and it's not and
it's not just us anymore because where you know, there
are other foreign nationals we're getting involved, right, And who's
social media is so interesting? Who's real, who's not?
Speaker 3 (37:14):
What?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Our bots what aren't? Right? So where are we getting
our information and getting your information from. I have had
conversations with people, and sometimes I'll engage up my patients
and you know, just and I and I do it
with playful banter. I try to as much as I
possibly can. And I'm a big teaser, so I'll tease
them about it. But when I hear them say certain things,
(37:35):
well I'll quote somebody. I'll say, that's really interesting. Where'd
you get that? Let's go to that quote. Let's find
that quote. Let's look for that study that they quoted.
Let's find we find the study. Let's read the study.
I'll read it with you. Well, I say that quote
is from a lot of times that the quote is
from the hypothesis of the study. It's not the reason
the study. And you can say anything you want and
(37:57):
a hypothesis because it's a question.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Well, when we were growing up, I think that things
like college, the concept of going to college and the
purity of that process seemed legitimate, and so the concept
of politics seemed not fair. It was always like mud slinging,
but you kind of thought there were two candidates. You
could really get an understanding from the three channels on
television of who they were, and it wasn't like a
lot of propaganda and marketing. And the reason I say
(38:22):
both of those areas is because drugs, big pharma, all
of it. But like with college, the colleges that when
I was in college were for morons, I mean you
literally they were known that you would have to just
sign your name on the SAT and you could get
in are now good schools. I don't think that the
education is that different. I think it's the money and
the marketing. So what I'm saying is like you're voting,
(38:43):
but you're voting based on marketing campaigns because the more
things you've heard about something, you're just it's just like
a commercial. So it's like, why are you buying the
air mez bag over the Chanel bag because of the
marketing campaign, like it's not because of the actual construction
of the leather. So I think it's scary because people
don't realize that it's not that easy to really get
(39:07):
good information because it's marketing. Marketing is massive. Everything is marketing.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Absolutely, and I'm proud of saying some of a girl, dad,
I know those two bags.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Oh good, good, good good. Your wife would want you
to know too. So what do you think about people
who've gone people who are going through a nasty breakup
or uh, infidelity or something really toxic living under the
same roof? What circumstances and what circumstances Would that be
(39:37):
a good idea?
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Would they be a good idea?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Not too many. I hope it's a big roof, A
big what a big roof?
Speaker 1 (39:46):
Oh big?
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard. You know, it's it's
interesting because I have been involved with high conflict families. Yes,
and you see this dynamic that occurs where they they
it may be both, maybe one party, it may it
may not be both, but they don't want to let go.
(40:08):
They don't want to let go. Remember what I said,
the opposite of love isn't isn't hate? Right, They want
to be relevant and they want to stay in that
person's life. So if I can't get you to love me,
I'll get you to hate me because I'm still I'm
still getting you.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
You're still in the game, still on the ride, I'm.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Still in it. I'm still in it, and you're still
in it with me, and that's really difficult to break out.
You know what. You define yourself as part of that
relationship and really in that relationship, and you never want
to leave it, and even when you hate that person,
you don't want to leave it because they're part of
your life and you don't want to give that out.
Now that happens with kids, without kids, with business, without business,
(40:48):
with finances with it, with finances are involved or not,
it's very hard people to give that up. They don't
want to more in that loss for whatever reason. And
then we could definitely talk about that more, because that's
a lot, that's a big that's a that's a lot.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
But yeah, no, because for me, I feel like if
you genuinely, if it's really emotionally unhealthy for you and
there's been something really toxic, I my experience is that
the only reason that someone would stay would be for
financial reasons they can't afford to leave, or that there's
that abandonment issue with the courts will say that one
(41:23):
party abandoned by leaving the house, because you're not.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Discounting for sure, right absolutely, but sometimes psychologically there are
other things involved and then the personal involved. We didn't
be aware of that.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
That's what I was going to say, it's underlying.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Ok. I'd love to talk more about that future.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Absolutely, Okay, Well, yeah, there's there's divorced stuff. I've dabbled
in talking about doing a divorce show, so you know,
we could talk about that more, like different divorce topics.
Thank you, Matt, talking you did great? Oh, thank you,
thank you great, really good conversation.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Excellent take care.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Doctor Matt was great. I really you know, I think
it's a dangerous game for people like me to just
opine if I have influence and if people are gonna
think what I'm saying is true, and I know people
will argue with me. And I'm not saying he knows everything,
but he's a trained professional h on a lot of
the matters in life and popular culture that we talk about.
(42:25):
So I think it's good to weigh in with someone
about some of the things that I've talked about with
you and just check in. You know, it's it's good
you hear your own voice, the voices inside your own head.
That's a very dangerous game. So even and when we
talk about things that are in popular culture, it's not
like to gossip, it's what does it mean? Meaning? The
Ashton Kutcher and Mila thing made me learn something. Maybe
(42:47):
the Sophie Turner and Joe Jonas divorce made me learn something.
Maybe the way Megan and Harry act in their lives
lives make me learn something. The Kardashian what you know?
So it's good to use these popular culture sure of
things that we all know about and think we have
knowledge about to learn. So I think that that's you know,
there weren't the advand of Pump of it all, all
(43:08):
of it, So I thought it was great
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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