Gretchen Carlson

Gretchen Carlson is a broadcast journalist and television personality that has become a very vocal and inspirational advocate in the movement for safer workplaces for women. Her story is incredible, inspirational and one that, even if you thought you knew, you haven’t...until you’ve heard this conversation with Bethenny.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
So Gretchen Carlson is here. We met years ago. You
were moderating an event and I think I spoke was
that it?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, it was a couple of years ago. It was
actually on Zoom because I think it was during COVID.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
That was probably one of my first and really only
Zoom appearances.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
What yeah, why?

Speaker 1 (00:30):
I first of all, it would be hard for me
to even get myself on a Zoom now, meaning physically
do it. I'm one of those people that's like a
dinosaur in that way and that tech way. But I
didn't see the future and understand how Zoom could be real.
And it was so great to do appearances and your
pajama Yeah exactly. So that was good for me. But
what was that for?

Speaker 3 (00:51):
Do you remember?

Speaker 2 (00:52):
I was trying to remember when my pure person was
just asking me what it was. It was for some
like conference that featured people who were philanthropic.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Oh, okay, So it was about we.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Were talking about all your efforts with when you go
in after hurricanes strong and yours and yours and so
you know, my efforts at lift our voices. And I
think it was put on by a magazine. But it's
escaping me, right, Okay, what it.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Was so like so many other people that I interviewed
that I know, we text back and forth, We've talked
about making plans, we live near each other, Like so
many other people, when I look at their bio, it's
something that's never come up in speaking to them or
texting with them.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
Obviously. I mean, you have the.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Most colorful, assorted, impressive resume bio. I mean, if you
had this as a resume and it basically just gave
your hobbies and the other things you've been involved in,
it would be impressive. So I was really, really I
was shocked. So some of the things I read was

(01:53):
a talented youth violinist, you were Miss Minnesota, Miss America,
You went to Stamford, You were on Fox and Friends
for many many years. You also, I mean I watched
the documentary, if I listened to everything I see on TV,
you kind of took down a network and also started

(02:14):
a movement. So let's start by how you are so ambitious.
Even just saying that you went to Stamford alone is
something that's impressive. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Look, I think there's a through line in my life
about working incredibly hard, you know, but there's also a
through line that I think is inspirational to especially women
who maybe drop out of the workforce or are trying
to look like what their next calling is after they've
been a parent. And my life, I hope, is a
testament to like, you can always pick up the pieces
and start over if you have a really good base

(02:44):
of working hard, because my life has worked in so
many mysterious ways, just like what you rattled off, like.
I was a really serious violinist as a child, and
I thought that was going to be my career, and
I studied at Juilliard in New York, and I burned
out when I was seventeen. I was like, you know what,
I just like too many other things in life, and
to be what I wanted to be in that area,
I would have had to given up everything else. And

(03:04):
I wasn't willing to do that because I loved school,
and I was in drama, and I liked boys. I mean,
you know, there were a lot of things that were
distracting me from music. And so then I went to
Stanford and dedicated myself to my academics. And then my
my mom especially was pretty upset that I wasn't playing
the violin anymore. So I'll never forget. She called me
when I was studying overseas. She's like, I phound something

(03:26):
for you to do with your violin and I was
like what, And she goes Miss America and I was like, Mom,
are you ef a nuts? Like I'm from Minnesota. I'm
I'm five foot three, I played classical violin, which has
never won. I never watched pageants growing up. I was
a tomboy. But my mom has been like this incredible

(03:48):
driving force in my life and has really pushed me
in a good way. And so she won, and I,
you know, I entered because fifty percent of your points
are based on talent. Ah, so that was that's what
makes Smiss America different from Miss USA or other I wow,
most people don't unfortunately. Yeah. So then I, you know,
I stopped out of Stanford so that I could because

(04:10):
once I got into it, I was like, Okay, I'm
going to give this one hundred and twenty five percent.
And there's so much luck involved in all of this,
but so it you know, it ended up working out.
I became something I never ever dreamed that I would
ever be doing.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Because of Miss America because it was sort of being
forward facing.

Speaker 3 (04:25):
As we talked about.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Before, I never expected to be in a pageant, right right?

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Oh right?

Speaker 2 (04:31):
I played grew up playing football with my brothers, you know,
like I it just I wasn't a girly girl, like
I never watched it growing up, So then suddenly I
was it. I remember the night, the night that had
happened to age myself, MERV Griffin and Ava Goabor because
Viva Gobor was one of my judges and she was
the beard for MERV Griffin.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
Right, Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
So he had hotels in Atlantic City, so they threw
me this pizza party after I won up in some
sweet and I remember going into the bathroom and looking
at myself and being like, holy shit, Like now you
did this? Now?

Speaker 1 (05:06):
What? Right?

Speaker 2 (05:07):
Because you don't really prepare to like be it, Like
I never thought about, oh if this actually happens, Like
what is it like to be miss America?

Speaker 1 (05:14):
Oh that's interesting because often even with any job, you're
excited to get it because it's a big get. That
was me with a talk show, but I didn't really
want it. I don't know that's your situation, but I thought, like,
who wouldn't want this? And I'm supposed to go for this.
But once I had it, it wasn't really for me.
It wasn't even my personality, which I think is something
people should explore new things, but you really have to

(05:35):
think about it. Fill aligns with your personality ego aside exactly.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
I mean it's very similar. So like what it took
to actually get there and win was totally different than
what it was to actually be it.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Well, it was very you to get there and win
and be disciplined and put in the work and like
to win. You are that type of person which we're
going to get into. But then you probably became a
show piece.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, And like back then, I was going to drugstores
and signing autographs and I'm like, what am I doing?
And I would hear people this is one of the drawbacks,
which I guess would be expected because people were I
was looking at your exterior, but I would actually hear
people in line like I didn't have ears, and I
would hear people say that's miss America. Yea, no. Look.

(06:18):
I developed such a tough skin from it. So what
I tried to do was do events where I could
perform my violin a lot so that people would understand
that this was you know that it was my talent
that propelled me to do that's hard. I did a
ton of speaking so that people knew I was intelligent,
and actually the skills that experience gave me have helped
me for the rest of my life. The first week

(06:40):
I was Miss America, I was at this huge dinner
with two thousand people, and I thought I was just
there to attend, and right before dessert, the guy in
charge came up to me and whispered in my ear,
just wanted to let you know that your keynote is
in five minutes. And I said, excuse me, my keynote
And I said, oh, well, how long would you like
me to speak? And he said, oh, just forty five minutes.
I would shit. I went in the bathroom with cocktail

(07:00):
napkin and like a pencil and wrote down some bullet
points and learned from that point forward that I always
had to have a speech in my back pocket. But
it was just a week into this, so it really
gave me amazing communications skills. I'm not nervous about anything
after that. Right, you're twenty two years old and you're
forced to be fifty Wow.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
But I think that's also something that mothers or parents
can think about with their kids, not leaning into looks
being the first thing I hear so many times. You know,
I'm a person that is totally comfortable being with no
makeup and obviously and pajamas.

Speaker 3 (07:38):
I post how I look like a wreck.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
I look like a wreck, Like I'm not defined by
what I look like at all, And it's never been
what's been forward facing. And it's funny because I used
to work with Paris and Nikki Hilton, worked for Kathy
and du Errands and be sort of there, you know,
take them to school and things like that, and they
were so stunningly beautiful, yet always really shy and quiet
because they really didn't they were lions, they were gorgeous.

(08:01):
They really didn't have to focus on personality then. But
I remember, actually their aunt Kyle used to talk about that, like,
that's not what they don't need to lean with. Their
minds and personalities need to lead with that, and they
developed that. But as women and daughters like you want

(08:23):
to kind of be the most interesting person in the
room versus just the hottest person room, So you were
trying to show everyone that you were more than that.
But also it sucks that you felt like you had
to explain why you were Miss America. You were kind
of explaining what the whole meaning of the pageant was about.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
You're right, right, like there was no category for height,
but people would be like, oh, why isn't she taller?
You know, I'm like, wait a minute, Like but to
your point about parents, I used to get asked by
mothers during that time in my life, what should I
do to prepare my daughter to possibly be Miss America?
And I would be like, stop worrying about her exterior.
Have her start playing an instrument or a sport or
something where you learn value about yourself, and that you

(08:58):
learn by putting time into something that you get better
and that builds self esteem. So my main message has
always been building your self esteem from the inside of
your soul instead of how we look. And today, in
present day, that's just so much more important than when
you and I were growing up, and with social media
and everything else going on now, and it's one of
the reasons when I was at Fox that on the

(09:20):
International Day of the Girl in October of that year,
I did my show without makeup on and I was
the first person to do that on cable. Ze oh
really yeah, And my whole point was that we should
be valued for what's coming out of our mouth and
the interviews I was doing, and not how we look.
And trust me, the higher opposite fox were really mad

(09:44):
at me that day.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Well, that's right, I believe you because it's also but
it also has just if you're a smart person, it
has longevity. Looks don't have longevity brains do. I mean
he saw Judge Judy say like, if you can't do
it to twenty, do it at thirty, can't do it thirty,
do it at forty. And you know, remember she said,
thank god I never asked for equal pay with men,
because she was making more than any of the mem

(10:06):
I like that. And I also think that as we
get older, when I think about age, I don't think
about vanity. I never have, but I never think about vanity.
I don't think about wrinkles. I think about being healthy
for my daughter. I think about that, you know, the
numbers don't lie, and will I be around for her?
And like that's what makes me cry, not looking older.

Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well, I'm being wise for her. Like you've had so
many life experiences. I've had so many life experiences, and
I mean, I don't mean to fast forward to what
I ended up doing seven years ago and taking down
the one of the most powerful men in the world.
But I have learned from my kids that those actions.
As much as I feared how it would impact their lives,

(10:46):
it actually has worked out so amazing because courage is contagious.

Speaker 1 (11:01):
So how did you get on to Fox and Friends?
How did you become a TV personality?

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Get a news so?

Speaker 2 (11:08):
I mean it's a long, long journey because there's really
no set path to becoming it's one of the top
journalists there, especially now with reality TV, which you know
a lot about people become famous overnight and suddenly they're
doing TV and I'm like, wait a minute, they don't
know anything about news.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
Oh and also TikTok journalists, So people reporting the news
on TikTok of the microphone is if like, it's interesting,
and some of.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
Them were good at it. It's research, it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
No, I mean, so look, I'm not saying that they
shouldn't become popular at all. But when I was starting, well,
actually I was going to be a lawyer, so I
took the LSATs and then my whole Miss America experience
really put me in front of the camera on a
daily basis, and I had had sort of an interest
in the back of my brain, and so it rekindled
that interest. And then I knew my LSATs were good
for five years, so if the TV thing didn't work out,

(11:53):
I could still go to law school. And it's actually
one of my big regrets in my life that I've
never gotten the education because I'm such a student at
home and I always say to my husband, now do
you think I have time to fit in law school?
He's like, what are you talking about? But I still
might do it. But anyway, so I didn't go to
law school and I started in my first job in Richmond, Virginia,
and I knew nothing about TV. I mean it was

(12:14):
I had no idea what I was doing at all.

Speaker 3 (12:17):
And where had you been living prior to that?

Speaker 1 (12:19):
I was.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
I finished my degree at Stanford after I was missed
right after I met So then I went to do
this job and three months into it, I got a
female boss, which was a godsend because she looked at
me and said, you're a hard worker. You're now the
political reporter. I was like, oh crap, Like what does
that mean? She goes you're covering the governor every day.
I'm likeugh, and you didn't know anything about politicians. Well,

(12:40):
I didn't know anything about politics. I didn't know anything
about TV more importantly, because that was my job. TV's
such a like a as you know, learning while you're doing.
Like you it's a practical job in the sense that
you can't really study how to do it.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Oh no, it's practic's but being a chef in the kitchen,
you really have to get in the kitchen to do it.
Someone can tell you and you could read it about it,
didn't even hear about it, but you have to do it.
But I think it's harder probably to become a quote
unquote knowledgeable expert on politics and it is to learn
how to be on TV.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
True, So I was learning both at the same time.
It was really a sink or swim situation. Yeah, and
you know, I worked my full head off and built
up all these contacts and so you know, it worked out.
And so then after two years in TV, what happens
is you can't just like be promoted by going up
to the fifteenth floor. You got to move cities. So
you go to a bigger market. So then I went

(13:31):
to Cincinnati, and that's where I really learned how to
do live TV and turn things quickly. And then I
went to Cleveland and that was my first reporter and
anchor job. Then I got promoted to the main anchor
job in Cleveland. Then I met my husband on a
blind date, got married, and promptly got fired because I
was part of the first prime time local newscast with

(13:55):
two women. Okay, it was kind of a precursor to
what I ended up doing, but it didn't work, and
the other woman was like born and bred in Cleveland,
so I was the one to go. But it's a
horrible experience because it's like I was being made fun
of for being fired. But it's not like I went
out to a bar and like exposed myself and got
fired for cause, right, you know. It was just because
it didn't work, so and I'd just gotten married. It

(14:16):
was a really dark time in my life. I mean
I would sit in my garage and smoke cigarettes and.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
That story before and cry because I was just.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Like, what am I going And it's hard enough to
get married. It's transition, and I was established in my career.
I was in my thirties, and then it was just
gone and it was sort of my identity. And so
I really struggled for that first year. And then I
and then, as fate would have it, I got like
three job offers, all in Dallas in the same week. Really, yeah,
how soon after a year?

Speaker 1 (14:45):
Oh okay, because I feel that it's so funny people
want to put you down for your failures and really
bring them up, and you wouldn't have your successes without
your failing They're honestly valuable. And I have always been
a person who, in the moment when something I don't
get something or it fails, that I have always had
the wisdom to realize that it was all going to

(15:05):
something was going to come from that difficult time.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
So I think you don't feel it when you're living it.
But yeah, and then my mom, of course, my mom
would tell me every day it's just around the corner,
like meaning a new job. So then, like I said,
his fate would have it, I got I got three
job offers. Ironically, the one I took was so my
boss in Cleveland, who had really nothing to do with
letting me go. She ended up going to work for

(15:28):
NBC in Dallas, and that was one of the job offers.

Speaker 3 (15:31):
Oh great.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
So it was like a testament to like, I really
enjoyed working with Gretchen and I'm going to bring her back.
But I did have to take a bit of a
step back because I went back to like anchoring the
weekend news, right, So I had to build myself back
up and within And by the way, I lived in
Dallas for a full year without my husband. We commuted.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
That must have been brutal.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
It was brutal, yeah, But then he finally moved down there,
and then nine months later I got a job with
CBS News in New York. And on my third date
with him, when we first started dating, I said to him,
this sounds like something you would say. I said, if
you don't want to move to New York City in
your life, don't call me back. Ah, that's where I'm going, right,

(16:09):
you know. And like I said, I was already in
my thirties, like I was established and relationships are kind
of secondary, right, And he said, well, that's where I
want to go too, So I was like, okay. So
we were very happy to move to New York City
and that was in two thousand and we were like
two passing ships in the night because he's a baseball agent,
so he was constantly on the road recruiting and going

(16:32):
to games. And I was an international correspondent for CBS News,
so I always had a suitcase packed and literally I
would have to be on my way to the airport
in two minutes after they called me to say such
and such happened, you have to go. So sometimes we'd
have date night in LaGuardia. You know, it was just like, oh,
I haven't seen you for a week, but you're flying
to Tokyo and I'm going to you know, Istanbul, so

(16:52):
I guess we'll meet up. And it was it was
a really exciting time in our life. We could really
enjoy New York. We didn't have kids yet, and then
I got Then I got promoted to the Saturday early show,
which was always my dream to do a morning show
because it was like a combination of hard news but
also showing your personality and having fun, right. And it
was also then that I could start thinking about having kids,

(17:14):
because you know, morning shows are like they want to
show off the babies, and when you're an international correspondent,
not so much.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Oh, no, one's thinking of you as a mom. And also,
it sounds like you liked the structure. No, Kelly rip
I talked to you about that she liked when she
got Regis and Kelly that she liked the structure. She
being an actress, was not the same sort of consistency
and structure.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
So it is n Yeah, So then we, you know,
we started trying to get pregnant. I was blessed to
I have problems at first, but I was blessed to
have a daughter and soon after a son, and I
just hit the jackpot, you know. And then when my
son was three months old, Fox came calling and they
were like, how would you like to do a morning
show five days a week. Well, who wouldn't say yes

(17:53):
to that?

Speaker 3 (17:53):
Of course?

Speaker 2 (17:54):
You know, this is years ago.

Speaker 3 (17:55):
I was on that show. Oh yeah, yeah, Fox and Friends.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah, and it was the number one cable news show
in the country and it became more popular once this,
you know, our group was assembled. But the hell started soon.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
After, right, So the hell was while you were on Fox.
You were on Fox and Friends for how many years? Eight?

Speaker 2 (18:15):
That's a long And then I had my own show
at Fox for three years. But so I got fired
from Fox and Friends at the height of the height
of the popularity because it was retaliation for me not
acquiescing to sexual demands. Wow. And so it was made
to look like I got a promotion because they gave
me my own show in the afternoon, But it was

(18:37):
actually a demotion. They slashed my pay in half. They
gave me a desk from the broken closet, I mean
the broken desk from the closet. I had the smallest
producing staff. I mean, it was like it was like
a three year journey to try and make me invisible
so that when they actually fired me, people wouldn't miss out.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Oh and that also it looked like there was a
history of it was bad. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
I didn't have viewers, my ratings, you know, the whole.
I mean, imagine if that time and energy. And by
the way, this is not only happening at Fox News,
and by the way, in every industry this is happening
where women and men are subjected to sexual misconduct and
then when they don't do it, they're retaliated against.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Right well, also even not just limited to that, just
sanctions and punishment for being bad, Like you feel like
a child for being bad. And I recently likened it
to cult like behavior because the person at the top,
often a male figure, has the power and the charisma

(19:36):
and is feeding off of all the machinations and the
chessboard and the pieces that they're moving around, and has
individual relationships with each person that the others don't know about,
and they're promising individual things they're giving, they're taking away.
And isn't that Is that in a sound familiar.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
You and I are just talking the same language at
this whole podcast, because that's exactly what this is all about.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
And did you ever think about it in a cult man?

Speaker 2 (20:00):
You said that were, well, yes, I believe Well Fox
has gotten just way out of hand, different from even
when I was there. Yeah, I would never ever, ever, ever, ever,
ever work at Fox News in this you know, iteration
of it, right, but you factor that this is now
Let's see, I was there eleven years. I've been gone seven,
so eighteen years ago I took that job at Fox
and Friends. I didn't even know that it was like,

(20:23):
It's not that I'm naive. I didn't even know it
was a political channel.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
At the time when we were growing up, news was
not you didn't have anchors eye rolling about the opposite party,
like it's almost juvenile. When we were growing up, news
was definitely more neutral.

Speaker 3 (20:38):
It wasn't so liked.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Like it's the news, you're supposed to seem somewhat impartial.
And it's become like almost scripted.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
No, it's totally like we only watch what we want
to hear, so everything becomes siloed. And that's how we
have gotten into this great divide.

Speaker 1 (20:53):
Right, you can hear what you want to hear by go,
like the way people call their friends to tell them
what they want to hear, or hate who they want
them to hate. That's what That's what the news in
general is like.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Now. To me, some people still think I'm on Fox
when I walk through the airport, and why is that
because that's the only thing they watch. And obviously Fox
News never reported on the fact that I brought down
the guy who ran it, right, so they in their
brains still think they see me on Fox News, which
is just crazy. So and by the way, Roger Ails
is my alleged predator, is the one who created Opinion TV,

(21:29):
and so when it started twenty five thirty years ago,
it was I don't want to give him any credit,
but it was a brilliant idea because it was at
that time that people the internet was starting, and people
were getting their news at work, right, so when they
got home at night, they actually wanted to see what
people thought about the news.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yes, and also infotainment. It was you know, it wasn't
just the news dry because everything's become infotainment because you know,
they're going to start selling the clothes off of anchors
back soon, because you have to have more ways to
monetize what you're doing. And it's it is, it's it's
just the nature of the beast exactly. Okay, So how

(22:15):
do you take this on? So you feel like you're
being demoted, you feel like you're being fired, how do
you what's your first step to taking down a person
at a network? Like who are you talking to? What
are you doing so? And how many years ago is this?
Because I watched I.

Speaker 2 (22:31):
Was fired seven years ago. You fired seven years and
I sued two weeks later, So I was already thinking
about this.

Speaker 3 (22:39):
When did you sign an NDA.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Upon my resolution? After I came forward and sued, and
then you know, we came to a settlement agreement and
then part of that and my settlement was very progressive actually,
because I got a public apology that never happens. And that's,
by the way, that's all survivors ever want is because
it validates their claims. I got that, which was huge,
and I also gave that Fox News and Rupert Murdoch

(23:05):
and News Corps.

Speaker 3 (23:05):
Oh wow, yeah, they acknowledge a valid Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
I to apologize for the horrible treatment that I faced
and that I was a reputable, you know, talented woman
who should have never ever he had. When the news
came out about my settlement, ironically, I was getting my
nails done in pedicure because I was waiting to get
a haircut on the first day of school after we
dropped off our kids, and tears were just streaming down
my face because the headlines that came out were they

(23:29):
apologized to her, They apologized to her chills survivors. Thousands
of people have reached out to me since saying that's
all I ever wanted, right and and then so, but
what came. I was also given the ability to speak
openly about issues like sexual harassment in the workplace, which
I've taken full advantage of in the laws that I've passed,

(23:51):
and the millions of people that I've helped. What I
have been silenced about are all my basically my truth,
my whole story of my eleven years at Fox. I
can't tell you really what happened to me.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
Do you have any regrets?

Speaker 2 (24:04):
I have absolutely no regrets about coming forward I have.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Now, do you have regrets about the settlement?

Speaker 2 (24:08):
You?

Speaker 3 (24:08):
Maybe you can't talk about.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
This, But how could I have known? You've had so
many twists and turns in your life too, so you'll
relate to this. How could I have known that I
was igniting an international movement called me Too when I
came forward?

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Right?

Speaker 2 (24:21):
I thought I was going to be crying at home
for the rest of my life because I was fired
and never work as a journalist ever again. So that
was the first thing. Number two. How could I have
known that because of that movement and how well known
my story would become, that it would inspire so many
other people to come forward, and then that I'd actually

(24:41):
be doing advocacy work to get rid of NDAs. How
would I know that in a short span of seven years,
I'm actually have passed laws now that get rid of NDAs.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Can you do that on your own?

Speaker 2 (24:55):
I mean, so far nobody really wants to be on
board about opening up people's truths from time in the past.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
I disagree because I don't I think because this you're.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
Not about politicians who don't want to do that.

Speaker 1 (25:12):
Oh No, I just want to talk about this topic
because I truly feel like there we're going to get
into the reality reckoning. And if you've heard about it
and what you think about it, yeah, and if they're parallels,
I'm sure there are. But the thing is, I do
not think that a place like Bravo for example, or
any of the big networks or streamers now can get
away with suing someone who speaks up about improper treatment

(25:34):
because the court of public opinion is so much more
powerful than the court of the law. I just think
it would be too damaging for them. Like I think
if anybody silenced you from deciding now that you made
the wrong decision about that one thing, I just don't
think that they would. I don't think that they would
take action, and I just don't think they'd win.

Speaker 2 (25:50):
But keep in mind, I was the first person to
take the house down.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
Well, and also you get criticized because you took money.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Well yeah, but here's the whole problem with that. The
way that gets publicized. How is it good publicity? It
gets publicized that and this is how we think culturally
that people who sign settlement agreements get money for their silence. No,
you want to know what people are getting money for.
They never freaking work again. That's true because they get

(26:17):
black buld from the industry. It's true to consider to
be a troublemaker. And that's what I'm also trying to change,
not just laws, but and by the way, passing bipartisan
legislation in the most hyper political time of our generation
is easier than changing culture. And that's saying a lot.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
No, I'm just saying it's hard to because I've watched
other people in this sphere. I'm not suing anyone and
I'm not asking for any anything. So it's very powerful
because you can't say that I'm just going for money. Now,
I'm not saying that's what you did. You experienced torture.
And also someone should be whatever. Yes, it's that you
can't work again, but it's okay to say I want

(26:55):
compensation for what I experienced or that there were damages
or it's damages, because.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
You can that's an old school way of solving these things.
So what I'm trying to do through Lift our Voices
now is change the way companies think about these things.
They spend millions of dollars trying to cover things up. Oh,
I you know, imagine if they actually put all those
resources into independent investigations that don't penalize the person who
had the courage to come forward. How this should work

(27:20):
is like, let's say I come forward. I say this
is how I'm being treated At Fox News, they do
an independent investigation, not the kind walls hr or hiring
a law firm for a million bucks that they've worked
with for twenty years, none of that bullshit. Independent use
the money that they're using to cover up shit. Do
an independent investigation, find out Gretchen's telling the truth. She

(27:41):
gets to keep her job. Why why should people who
have courage to come forward be the ones that get
shunted out never work again. And by the way, because
it's all secret, the perpetrator gets to keep their job
because nobody knows what's happening. And this is how this
vicious cycle y has gone.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
I agree, I'm actually not on It's actually not that
dissimilar what I'm talking about. So the reality reckoning, I'm
not sure what you understand about it totally.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
I've read all, I know everything you're doing.

Speaker 3 (28:09):
But what happens?

Speaker 1 (28:10):
I just said something I literally wasn't even about me
per se. It was just like, wait a second. This
is the most exploited group because these are people that
are being themselves quote unquote playing themselves and they lose
jobs and kids are damaged forever and have mics on them.
And what's different, though, is that you could define that
it was improper improper practices in the workplace. The reason

(28:34):
that this is more cave era and more archaic is
this is not a workplace. So you have to be
there on time. You are not allowed to not show up.
You have rules, you have contracts, you have regulations, but
they're entirely to benefit the realm. You are not an
actual worker, so you don't. You get paid by a
third party, so it doesn't seem like you're a real worker,
meaning you can you could drink forty drinks at work here.

(28:57):
You could be an addict that's recovering and start doing
drugs and that will be celebrated in this workplace. The
person is not valued. But the similarity is that the
top is literally monetizing and benefiting from this off of
women's backs, and it's an environment where it's literally celebrated

(29:18):
and designed for women to trash other women, to set
to not explore people's lives, but to exploit them. It's
the upside down because we don't even have the baseline
of it being a workplace to then say this is
improper work in the workplace.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Well, let me tell you the two laws I passed
last year to get rid of NDA's for sexual misconduct
and forced arbitration, which is the other way that you're silenced.
People have no idea what that is, but it means
that you can't go to court, you can't openly sue somebody,
You have to go to this secret place. Yes, exactly, yea,
which is so my two laws I passed even protect
reality show workers, okay, even though because they're independent contractors

(29:57):
right yep. So I made sure to have that in
the language of both of my bills, because, especially after COVID,
there are so many gig workers, independent contractors, migrant workers.
They're all covered on my So your reality fight for you.
There is a lot of synergy. Oh, yeah, my laws

(30:17):
actually protect reality show workers even though they're not real employees.
So if they faced sexual misconduct during their time while
they're there, they don't have to be silenced anymore.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
There's also there's no one to go to. There is
no hall monitor, there is no HR, there would be
no one to talk to. You'd be talking to a
producer who's paid to get you to drink. And doesn't
mean they're pouring it down your throat. It means they're
having alcohol everywhere and telling someone else get her to
play that drinking game. And there's no therapy. And I've
seen people have nervous breakdo I've seen people have breakdowns

(30:50):
and then be put on television days after, like it's
actually abuse and it's emotional abuse and so and by
the way, many people don't get compensated at all and
forever like you didn't get.

Speaker 3 (31:03):
Paid well known, and then they know even if you
are well known.

Speaker 1 (31:05):
Then I got paid fifty dollars from my first season,
and fifteen years later, I'm on the entire buses and
those are still being aired in My picture is still
on the thumb print and I don't see any of that.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
You don't get a residual from that zero God.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
No, no one realizes that that if and now they
sell They've just sold it again. They keep selling and
selling and selling, So Bravo sells it. We're gonna hack
up the chicken number, giving something to hey you, Hey you, Australia,
hey u UK, to Amazon, to this one, to that one,
to Peacock not a thing, and the memes, the and
the gifts, like we are really in the dark ages
because even and it's hard to say, even someplace like

(31:38):
Fox or CBS or CNN or ABC, there is some
like there is some sort of governor, like there is
a you sign a contract, you're supposed to be in
a workplace, you can say like this is not okay,
you might not be heard, but there this is not even.
This is literally the wild wild West, and no one's
looked at it.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
For thirty years.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
So well, good for you for so.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
But but more importantly than the details about it is
like I know you felt this. What it feels like
to say something first, to know that you're right, and
a lot of people on the macro level to agree
and know that you're right. But the peers and the
people in the mid level that are scaredy cats. They're

(32:18):
the ones making you think that you might be fucked,
that you might be like you know what I'm saying,
Like my brain is upside and I'll see people on
the street and I'll hear from people that are running
multi billion dollar, you know, publicly traded companies in entertainment
that are saying, I want to hear what you're doing.
I want to be part of it, Sagan after coming
to me, I want to be part of it. Everyone
knows I'm right, but at my peer level and the

(32:39):
mid level, I'm toxic and people won't work for me,
and some producers won't work with me. I don't care,
because I also think that I started this at a
later period in my career in life than you did.
You were younger, and like you said, like earning power
was cut off earlier, Like I'm I'm I want to
be in my pajamas doing makeup in cottage cheese videos, you.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
Know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (33:00):
So like I'm not, But I definitely have risked a
lot and like been on the verge of cancelation for
this thing that I'm not even making money for. But
I have all these people behind me that are now
depending upon me and I can't open You can't open
your mouth, which is what all celebrities do, and not
back it up.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
Right, you got to go the way.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
Look, your path is very similar to what I did.
You're helping people you'll never meet, right, right. I say
this all the time. This will be my legacy. What
I'm doing now. I'm helping millions of people who I
will never ever meet in this world because we have
gazillions of workers in America. Right And the work I'm
doing at Lift our Voice is to get rid of

(33:39):
the way we silence these stories. I have a lot
of people who disagree with me too, mainly companies because
they don't.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
Want to deal with it.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
They like their dirty laundry being silence. Right. But the
people I'm helping it's massive. Oh yes, it's basically everyone
from from minimum wage workers up to white collar jobs,
because we're all subjected to these silencing mechanisms. But we
have no idea what we're signing when we start a job.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
That's you're also helping people that disagree with you and
were too scared to stick up for it, and they
knew you, and they knew that you were right, and
you had people secretly texting you telling you that they
don't have the courage that you do. But you're right,
and they're cheering you on. You were having silent cheers, right.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yes, yes, yes, I mean I didn't hear from a
tremendous amount of people at Fox News, but the rest
of the world, Yes.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
Well, what about the rest of the entertainment industry too?

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (34:27):
Look, this is rampant, as we saw, because then the
Harvey Weinstein allegations came out fifteen months after my stories.
But the only reason those came out is because the
reporters of the New York Times were given the green
light to actually look into them more seriously because my
case had come forward.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
And you don't get the credit for that.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
No, no, I don't. But I know what happened exactly.
And I know they always say that the me too
movements started in October of whatever year that was, and
I'm like, well, wait a minute, because I came forward
in July, fifteen months before that, which you know, Look,
there's so many of us who played a part in this,
But definitely it took an immense courage from me to

(35:02):
be by myself and jump off the cliff.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
That's why it's funny because you deserve the credit and
you want it because you know how you felt naked,
alone and afraid, like I have been standing naked me
like what am I doing? Why am I doing this?
What am Your head's blowing up? You don't know what
you're doing? And yeah, you want the credit because it
wasn't easy. When you first opened your mouth, you were
shitting your pants. But you open your mouth and then

(35:25):
once the words came out, you're like, all right, I
guess we're going.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, And there was no safety net below except for
all the survivors who started reaching out to me, and
they actually were what buoyed me in my darkest days.
I realized there were two epidemics. There was an epidemic
of misconduct in the workplace, right, but there was also
an epidemic of putting it under the carpet and silencing it.
And that's when I rolled up my sleeves and back

(35:47):
to how we started, with my hard work ethic that
I've had my whole life. I was like, I got
to do something about this, like I have to. I
have to pay tribute to all these people who came
before me, who nobody has ever heard of because they
were silenced.

Speaker 1 (35:59):
Yeah, well you were saying, there's two problems. One the
actual issue to the cover your ass exactly cover your
ass is massive. I'm dealing with cover your ass. And
once the thing I will say to people who want
to fight for something and who could possibly have the courage,
that is kind of what you're saying, once the match
gets lit, it's a forest fire, they cannot stop it.
Like that's I'm already there, like where I'm telling people,
don't worry, we got this. And I'm not even sure how.

(36:21):
I just am positive, not even like blind faith. Like
it's too powerful, it's too true.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
And you don't even have to get politicians to agree
with you, which I do passing laws. That sounds. So
I've walked the halls of Congress for the last you know,
six six and a half years, And to your point
about knowing that you're doing the right thing, but having
no idea when you actually start it. H So for
me last year being at the White House and standing

(36:48):
up on a stage with the Vice President and President
of the United States, yes, and introducing them and being
the voice for all of the survivors all across America
and standing there and watch him sign this first bill
into law and handing me the pen.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
That that is the justification for me jumping off of
that cliff without knowing what the hell was going to
happen to me. Not because of Gretchen Carlson, because on
that day we gave power back to millions of people
who have been subjected to these kinds of things at work.
And then eight months later we did it again with

(37:24):
our NBA bill. These are the two biggest labor law
changes in the last one hundred years.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
This labor law is a very big issue right now.
I was talking to Juju about this. They're very interested
in this over the area you talk to them.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
But you're right.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
The first validation was getting your personal apology, and now
the validation is passing laws and know the lawyers that
are helping all these people. They want me to go
to Washington and because you know of a union and unfair.
Sometimes I'll talk to someone and say that I should
have them on, but like then it has to really
pop off. Why otherwise we're just talking about fluff like

(37:58):
I was recently, Like I've got to talk to you
because we do have similarities and this is so interesting
and you really did break through, and I think that that.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
What did you think of the documentary?

Speaker 2 (38:10):
There was a movie called Bombshell, and then there was
a mini series called The Loudest Voice.

Speaker 3 (38:15):
The Loudest Voice.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Yeah, okay, okay, So just to put in perspective for
your listeners about how restrictive NDAs are they. I've had
people come up to me and be like, oh, I
saw your miniseries and I saw your movie, and I'm like, actually,
those are not my projects because I can't participate in
anything best on my NDA.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
That's why I'm asking what you thought, though, Well.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
I can't even tell you, which is my point.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
Well was it good?

Speaker 1 (38:39):
You can't say it was at you can't say anything.
You can't say good, or I can't.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Say the portrayal was accurate. Here's what I can say,
and now my brain's again in overdrive. I can say
that I think it's absolutely amazing and wonderful that actresses
of the caliber of Naomi Watts and Nicole Kidman took
on these roles playing Gretchen Carls. I'm like, I'm just
a small town kid who grow up Minnesota, right, Like,
that's crazy. Okay. The fact that they thought that this

(39:05):
issue was important. Great point, right, The movie and the
miniseries has probably helped countless numbers of people to also
develop the same kind of courage worth it. Whether or
not I can actually tell you that, you know, the
portrayal of me is accurate or not, kind of doesn't
matter if those two things are more. Oh and the

(39:26):
third thing is Hollywood would have never made these projects
seven years ago, right right? I mean, so that's the
third big thing. I mean, would I love to own
my own truth? Like people are always alarmed when I
give speeches or do interviews and I say I don't
own my own truth. I don't own my own story.
How fucked up? Is that?

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Very fucked up?

Speaker 1 (39:46):
But yeah, But the bigger the bigger picture is people want.
It happens in divorces with custody agreements or divorce or
you just signed because you said the deal, fatigue, you're exhausted,
you got something, somebody broke down. Your lawyer says to you,
fucking sign it, just sign it, and you don't. God
doesn't give you everything, But really be careful on what
you sign, because I'm sure you have some regrets and

(40:07):
because you just didn't know you'd be on this trajectory,
this deep.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
I would never know, and it was just commonplace. But
now it's not. We've passed laws in states now where
we can be more progressive than on Capitol Hill in
New Jersey, California, and Washington State, and we've now introduced
it in New York. You can't use NDAs for anything anymore.
It's amazing. So it's not an option if you live
and work in those states. And that is huge as

(40:33):
we continue to move state to state to state, because
what's happening is companies that are based in those states
now they're kind of in a pickle because if they
have employees all over globally, but they can't enforce NDAs
for people who live in those three states, but they
can make sure people are under NDAs everywhere else. A
lot of big companies have changed their policy to take
out NDAs for everyone, right.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
But I don't know why.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
I just have this feeling that you'll have a you'll
claw us back at some point. I just have this
film that Jogo that there'll be some law that's passed
that includes where you used to work Fox, and that
they'll have to publish if they'll they would have to
public say you can talk about your story because they
don't represent that anymore.

Speaker 3 (41:14):
Something.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
It has got to be a way that you will find.
You'll find I would find a way to tell my
story well, because I would make the people fight for
me to tell my story. And the people say, like, unleash,
show us the tapes.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, I've said publicly that Fox has gone out and
said that they've cleaned up their act. If that's the case, right,
then let me out in my na right, But you
don't let me out, so maybe you haven't cleaned up
the act. I'm you know, the more progress we make,
Bethany with these laws, the more pressure there will be
to eventually pass a law to make them give up

(41:50):
all their past people that they've silenced too.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
And when you're talking about Fox, you're talking about Fox News.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
That's what you know.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Do you know what goes on with Fox Entertainment. I
just did Snake Oil. I had a great experience, Like do.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
You know, I have no idea, but I do know
that my nda is with the parent company, and so
they try and entangle you so that if even one
of those entities decided to let you talk, you're still
screwed because the other two. So my third you're not
going to believe this. The third person or group in
my nda is Roger Ayls, who was my alleged predator

(42:21):
who died, right But even though he's a dead mass,
his wife Uh wow, Yeah, she would have to agree.
How crazy is that she'd have to agree to let
me out even though he's dead. That's that's how screwed
up this country became with silencing its people. And so look,
this movement this time isn't going away. So you're right.

(42:44):
There is what we're hoping for with our work at
Lift our Voices. That is that there will be this
public outcry that people will say, we're not going to
work at places that silence us anymore. Yeah. And in fact,
this coming year, we're going to put out the first
ever survey so that people will know companies that silence
them and companies that don't. That'll be a huge resource

(43:07):
for people to understand because it's the number one question
I get. But it's also going to be a subtle
nudge to companies to change their policies because they're going
to get a bad grade for me and I come
as a credible source on this issue. So if I
say this company silences their people and I'm giving them
an f that might spur them on to change their policies.

Speaker 1 (43:28):
And where are you saying all this? How do you
where we're currently doing all the research right now? No,
I mean, what's your current vehicle for communication? You're not
on tell are you on television regularly? Like where are
you saying all this? Whereas yea, you're here today talking
about this, but where are people sharing.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
Ass TV conferences? Social media? You know you and I
can do something together so you can help me get
the word out and vice versa. But eventually this is
going to be released sometime next year. First of it's kind,
nobody else is judging companies using my metrics of whether
or not they silence you, and I believe it's the

(44:04):
silver bullet to equity.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
So what are some great companies?

Speaker 2 (44:19):
They're very few and far between, Like, what.

Speaker 1 (44:21):
Are companies that have jumped off the page of Airbnb
is a great company and Airbnb is donated by the
way to be strong and helped people.

Speaker 3 (44:27):
So we've worked with them. So that's I'm glad you
said that.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Yeah, I mean, I can't vouch for what goes on
inside of airbas you're saying, from your perspective and from
my perspective, they don't use forced arbitration and they don't
use NDAs amazing. And now now, of course, because of
my laws, no company can use forced arbitration for sexual
misconduct anymore. Right, But here's the problem, Bethany. They're not
going to tell the employees that they don't have to

(44:51):
tell the employees. So let's say you signed a contract
ten years ago and it has an NDA and a
forced arbitration clause, and you're being sexually harassed. You don't
have to abide by the NDA or the forced arbitration anymore,
but you may not know that. So me getting this
word out is so important.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
I agree because at what the lawyers have said is
happening with with Bravo, and I feel like the word
arbitration has been around, it's everywhere, and you feel like
arbitration is a scam.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Here, Okay, here's what I want to hear about. Here's
what it is. So arbitration was never intended to adjudicate
human rights violations at work. It was it was like
if I was your neighbor and you knocked over my
fence with your car.

Speaker 3 (45:32):
Like the people's court exactly.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Instead of clogging the court system, they came up with
a process called arbitration for a three hundred dollars claim,
so the judges wouldn't be bogged down with all these
ridiculous cases. Okay, that was the point of arbitration. Go
to an arbiter, work out your claims, pay your three
hundred bucks, goodbye. Companies got smart about forty years ago

(45:55):
and decided to start putting forced arbitration clauses in PA contracts,
so if anything bad happened, nothing would ever come out
because arbitration is a secret process interest so you couldn't
openly sue. So what's happened over time with NBA's and
forced arbitration is that America thought we had come so

(46:17):
far in discrimination and sexual harassment all that because nobody
was ever hearing about these cases. And so when I
jumped off the cliff and then the mountain happened with
all these people coming forward, the American public got pissed
because they were like, wait a minute, I thought we
had solved this. The reason that they didn't know about
it was because it was all going to secrecy. All

(46:37):
these cases, thousands, hundreds of thousands of them were going
to force arbitration instead of an open court. Wow, So
these people, And the scariest part about it is only
two percent of all arbitration cases are found for the complainant.
So why bother lawyers won't even take your case if
you have a forced arbitration clause? And because it's a

(46:59):
secret process, nobody knows that there's a predator who's going
to arbitration and they get to keep working. You're fired,
you never work again, you don't get you don't get
any compensation. So the only reason you know about my story, Bethany,
is because my lawyer, I happened to be able to
have the resources to have brilliant lawyers, which not everybody can, okay,
And they came up with a brilliant strategy to sue

(47:20):
Roger Ayles personally to try to circumvent my forced arbitration
clause that I had with the company.

Speaker 3 (47:25):
A strategy.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
It's the only way my case became public and not
everyone has that opportunity or option. We arguably would not
be in the me too movement if they had not
thought of that, Okay. So forced arbitration is an unbelievable evil.
Next year, eighty four percent of all Americans will be
under it. Eighty four percent of us. That's an explosion

(47:46):
from nineteen ninety one when only two percent of us.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
Was look at your contracts exactly, look at your contracts.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
And one third of all Americans sign NDAs on their
first day of work. One third they think they're signing
only to protect trade secrets where they work.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
So that's no, that's what Bravo just said. The NDA
is just to protect storylines.

Speaker 3 (48:07):
But who cares?

Speaker 2 (48:11):
You know what I mean? But have a lawyer look
at that, because let me tell you something, these NDA
clauses don't scream to you. If something bad happens to
you, you won't be able to talk about it. It just
looks like you're never if you work at coke, you're
not going to go across the street to Pepsi and
give the recipe.

Speaker 3 (48:26):
No, it's but by the way, it's no, it's what
Bravo's saying. They're saying.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
Of course, it was just to protect story Back to
the cover your ass model, which who everything leaks in
the media anyway, No one cares who Ramona sleeping with.
It's not a secret because someone's leaked it to the media.
So that's bullshit.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
I bet the NDA is broader than that. I bet
it also means that anything bad that happens to anyone
on set that they can't talk about it.

Speaker 3 (48:47):
No, you also can't sue other people.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (48:49):
You can't sue other people that you work with.

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Sometimes people click on emails Bethany that they get from
their company. Just from clicking on the email, they agree
to forced arbitration.

Speaker 3 (49:00):
That's criminal, it's insane.

Speaker 2 (49:01):
They haven't even they haven't they don't even understand. Well,
first of all, they didn't even get a chance to
understand it because they just who doesn't click on an
email from work?

Speaker 1 (49:09):
The government should be giving you grants to like have
a lot of people under you to do this, Like
this should be a real, like, you know, not for
profit business.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Well this is so. Lift our Voices is not for profit.
But we are always in major fundraising mode because we're
the only organization doing this work in the world. Yeah,
and yes, we're trying to raise money to build out
our infrastructure. I always say that I need to clone
myself by like a thousand people because I have the
capacity to do so much work, and I've been successful

(49:38):
in it, but you need money to hire people.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
This has been cracked open, and I'm sure we won't
do everything perfectly. There'll be some eggs broken to make
an omelet like you didn't do it perfectly. You can't
even tell your fucking story, so that's not perfect. But
you've made a lot of progress in Amail.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
I've taken advantage of every possible thing that I did
get out of that settle, Yeah, which was my voice
on these issues. You know, I can't give you the
details of what he said to me and what he
did to me, and that doesn't really matter when I'm
passing laws and.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
It's not just about you, that's what you're saying. It's
not about you.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
It's not about what he said to you. That's gossip.
You're talking about the whole systematic change.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
I want to make sure that Britain and my children
are not silenced in the next generation. Yeah, okay, And
we thought we had solved all this crap in our
generation and guess what we were fooling the American public
because it was all going to secrecy. Yes, So now
I vow to the rest of the world that we're

(50:34):
solving it now for our kids. And actually a lot
of this starts with our young boys, because we do
a really good job of raising up our girls. That's
not what this is about. Men rule the world still, yes,
and we need to get to those men to say
at a young age, help us do this, Help lift

(50:55):
us up. Stop silencing people in the workplace, help women.
And so women can get in a room and go
rah rah rah rah rah, and then go outside and
feel empowered. But it doesn't matter really because at work,
if we don't have men involved in this equation, we
are not going to move the needle. Right. They have

(51:15):
to help us, and one way they can help us
is take away silencing mechanisms. Also pay women fairly and
also promote them.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
Well in some ways too. You're not going to get
them to necessarily care. You might get them to be
proactive just to cover their s and that's fine too.
Meaning I had someone, you know, they're not going to
give a shit if.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
They have daughters.

Speaker 1 (51:32):
They might might, it's so abstract to them because they're
so powerful. They don't think their daughters are gonna have
to deal with it, you know what I'm saying. So,
but I just ran into someone who I you know,
I can tell you confidentially not on this podcast, that
is probably the most powerful person in the entire entertainment industry.
And they came to me to say, I want to
hear about what you're doing, probably partially because they're scared.

Speaker 3 (51:54):
I don't really give a shit.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
They were like, I want you to talk to my
top management, which I did, and you could tell that
they were all also partially uncover their ass mode, pretending
they've already been doing all these things. But there the
wheels were turning, and I was like.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
No, no, no, you're you. You.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
You would be smart if you got on board because
you have exposure, and this train's going with or without you.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
That's the same phrase I use. Really, Oh my god,
we have so many synergies. I always say to company CEOs.
The train has left the station, so get on board
with the work.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
Get out of the way. You're gonna get hit or
you're gonna get hit.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
That's right, yeah, because there's no going backwards anymore.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
No, it's happening.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
And that's why you have this power because you just
know because you lit the match. And I felt that,
and sometimes I don't even know exactly what I'm working towards,
but I know that I'm going in the right direction.
So wow, okay, so all right, so tell me you're
this is the last question. You're a rose and thorn
of your career.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Well, the thorn is obviously my experience at Fox News,
Uh therapy because of it, Like my therapy has been
all of my work talking to all the other survivors
and the work I do every day. I have to
wake up optimistic every single day.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
But you're not, like now currently traumatized from what happened.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
No, no, no, no, okay now, because I'm so embedded in what
I'm doing, and that's my therapy is like I know
I'm making the world better.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
No. And you also, once you get that validation of vindication,
it does release something. It probably took a while to
get it off of you, but it did.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
But but I'm going to tell you that my rose
is also working at Fox News right because it gave
me the opportunity to transform my life into advocacy that
I never ever ever thought i'd be doing. It's not
like you, when you're a successful person like you and
I have been, It's not like you aspire to put
poster child for harassment in the workplace on your resume. No,
but I've taken full advantage. And a friend said to

(53:37):
me after I came forward seven years ago, she said,
you know, something good is going to come from this.
And at the time I was like, you're full of shit,
Nothing good is going to come of this. But you
know what, she was right.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
She was right.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
And also I always say to people, you don't have
to know where you're going to. Just get on the road,
get in the car, plan out something, but it probably
won't be what you planned. You'll hit a roadbock, you'll
run out of gas. Just like get in the goddamn car,
and always beforeward moving. It doesn't mean like I'm waiting
for life to happen to me. That's not what it means.
It means like you worked your ass off at Miss America,
you worked your ass off at the small market, you

(54:10):
worked your ass off at Stanford. You're a work your
ass off person. And that's really what I think is
the key to anyone's success. Not social media, not a filter,
not a cute little tagline, not a reality show. It's
working your ass off.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Yeah, but you have those same characteristics I feel like
we could finish each other's sentences.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Yeah, Reah, now no, and I'm a track. I was
talking to Juju Chang from Nightline yesterday about this because
I am very attracted and friendly with strong women, but
interestingly that really have a strong voice in media, like
I love Hotecopy, I always have I connect with her.
I really have a good relationship with Kelly Rippo, with
Katie Couric, I connected to Gail King, like. I was

(54:50):
thinking that a lot of the women, not a lot,
like ninety nine point nine percent of the women that
I respect in this industry are in similar have similar
back grounds to you, and there's got to be something
to it. There has to be a parallel to that
work ethic and what that.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
Takes completely in a world. Judge Judy to the to.

Speaker 3 (55:07):
The mix, Yeah do you know her? Yeah? Oh so
you'll okay, so you can.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
We'recause I'm going to have a power woman's dinner party
here and invite a group and I would die.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
I would plots if Judge Judy comes over. I just
ran into her in in our town. Oh okay, and uh,
she's the most lovely person ever. And by the way
you quoted her, earlier, like she for us beyond, Yeah, beyond.
So she would.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
She's a tough bitch, she yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
So she would be a great addition to the party.

Speaker 3 (55:38):
I love that.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
Okay, amazing, that'd be even more interesting. All right, great,
so we'll talk about that. Yay, Give me a hug.