January 18, 2024 • 46 mins
Holly opens up to Bethenny about the secret life behind the doors of the Playboy mansion...including scandals, rules and NDAs.
Plus, she’s way more than a Playboy Bunny, find out the truth of who she really is!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
My guest today's television personality Holly Madison, who is best
known as Hugh Hefner's girlfriend and for her appearance in
the reality show The Girls next Door. She's written two
books about her life in the Playboy Mansion and now
one of the co hosts of the podcast Girl Next Level.
This is just be with Holly Madison. Let's get into it.
(00:34):
How are you? Where are you live in Vegas?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm in La right now. I go back and forth.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
You do, so, where's home base?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
In my heart? Vegas? But it's really like fifty to fifty.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Did you grow up in Vegas?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
No, I've lived there for like the past fifteen years, though.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
And I hear it's sort of like Miami where people
that live there aren't really in South Beach like on
the Strip. And that's what I hear about Vegas, Like
You're not like hanging out at Caesar's Palace.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, for sure. When I was younger, I used to
spend a ton of time on the Strip. But now
now that I'm older, I take things easier.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, And what is life like in Vegas?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I always say it's like a small town and a
big city combined, because you have everything there you'd want
in a big city, like so much stuff to do,
but it's kind of a small town vibe, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Do you go to like Lake Powell and the water
and places like that on you know, for vacation or
like those houseboats things like that.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Sometimes usually when it gets too hot, I just head
back to La though for a break.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Okay, And what is work in Vegas? Now? So you
have a very interesting story. I kind of would have
known that peripherally obviously for what I've seen in the media,
but after reading about you, just like you know, you
see all these people that you hear about or you
see in the press, and like you don't dig deep
(01:57):
under the hood and like and I'm like, wow, Like
I never really thought this much about Holly Madison and
what a crazy, crazy ride in life. So I can't
wait to talk to you about it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, totally. Yeah. As far as work, I shoot the
Playboy Murtyers there and my other new true crime show
weth Lee Blonde that's coming out in March. We shoot
those in Vegas.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
So you have a pretty big, successful business that continues
and thrives.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I enjoy it. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Do you think that people are surprised, or that they
think of you they've pigeonhole you, pigeonholed you as the
girl in the playboy mansion, and that people don't really
realize the kind of bread of business success that you've had.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I think so, Yeah, people like to just narrow it
down and be like, oh, the only reason you have
anything as you are on Girls next Door, and they
just because they're not paying attention, which obviously I don't
expect everyone to play super close attention everything I'm doing,
but people like to kind of boil it down to
one thing and think that everything you know comes from that.
But really I've been steadily working just on different things
(03:00):
throughout my life.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, and how many people have been on reality television
and not created a successful business out of it. I mean,
you haven't been on that kind of a mainstream show
like myself for years. And similarly, oh they made you
like they made me. I made them too, you know
(03:22):
what I mean. Like it happens a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, you picked up the torch and you ran with it,
and people don't want to give credit.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
You know, having lived in La I realize what a
small town it is. I've worked for Jerry Bruckheimer and
Lauren Michaels and I worked at La Scala, and I've
had a million jobs, and you end up knowing everyone
way more than New York or other places, like you
know everyone and you know the assistance that become the
studio heads. And having spent so many times at those
(03:49):
Playboy parties and me living out there during that time,
never being invited, but knowing people that would be there.
That guy Shane Black remember, used to have those parties
in loose Feeless, Like there were these big, sort of
alluring parties that were famous in LA. Parties in Malibu.
I came up at the same time as you, and
everybody knew everybody. So the reason I mentioned that is
(04:10):
that I wonder if you run into people a lot
now who like know that you know where all the
dead bodies are buried.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Sometimes yeah, I mean as far as like other parties
in LA. Wasn't really allowed to kind of go anywhere
else too much once I was in the mansion, so
it was kind of just that circle. But I do
run into people a lot who are like, oh, well,
I met you at the mansion, and I'm like, I
don't know, I must have been drunk, like I was
feel bad because so many people would come up and
say hi. To happen. I would say hi as well,
But it's a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Well, have you had any good business relationships? Because of
people mostly men who were there at the house, Like
there are a lot of executives, I know a lot
of them, writers, agents, managers. I mean everybody used to go.
There was no stigma to it like there would be now.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I would say most of my connections that I carry
through are more from E when we were doing girls door,
not so much people I met at the mansion because
for the big parties when more people would come, I
was expected more to just like sit at the table
with half the whole time, and I would say hi
to people who came up and stuff. But I didn't
really get the chance to know a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I understand, and for people that don't know, most people
don't know. How did you get that opportunity? How did
you become the top Hefner girl to be at that
seat at the table, Like how did that happen? That process?
And where were you living like the whole journey to
get there.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, I was in college and I was going to
the Playboy Mansion parties, which were really like the cool
parties at the time, and I started getting invited to
the pool parties, the Fun and the sun Pool parties
because those were a little more intimate. It was a
much smaller guest list, and you know, I would chat
with half a little bit and stuff. I felt like
I kind of knew him, and a lot of the
girlfriends of his would talk to me and like invite
(05:53):
me out and stuff, And at first I didn't want
to go, but then I decided, you know what, I
kind of want to move in because I had two
roommates at the time who were moving out, and I
didn't really know anybody else, and my credit sucked and
all that, and I thought, you know what, I should
give this thing a try so I'm not homeless. I
thought it would be fun based on the people I
knew at the parties and like that level of access
(06:13):
that I had. Right so I moved in and you know,
got in over my head. I feel it was a
much like more intense situation than I was expected. But
as far as being the number one girlfriend, I feel
like that happened because a few months after I moved in,
the main girlfriend at the time was moving out, and
everybody kind of knew that, and the other girls didn't
want that spot, and they were like, oh, you know,
(06:34):
I think Keath likes you the best. I think you're
going to be the main girlfriend because you know, he
and I would like watch movies together and things like that.
And I always enjoyed like being down at the dinner
table and kind of the quote unquote boring stuff that
the other girls didn't want to do. So it kind
of just naturally happened. It wasn't like something I had
to fight anybody for anything like that.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Was there a contract that had to be signed. Obviously
there was an NBA, but with a salary and benefits,
and it was as if you were taking like a
real job.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Absolutely not. I think a lot of people picture that.
I think, you know, people love to be like you
knew exactly what you were getting into. I think they
picture that scene in Fifty Shades of Gray where she
sits down at that conference table and she's given that
fat stack of papers to sign. But it was nothing
like that. There was no NDA, there was no contract,
there was no benefits, really like he would pay for
(07:26):
people's medical expenses and like doctor's appointments and stuff that
lived there, but it was all very informal in that way.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Well, I'm going to share something because I think that
it's easy for people to judge that situation, people who
have daughters, like, how the hell, how did your mother
let you all of these things? And yet we see
all these things happen. I lived in la and when
I worked for Jerry Brookhimer, he had another house that
he was renting out to different people, like Steve Tish
(07:54):
who did for his gumber, Jennifer Tilly, one of the Tillies,
and we got to be in that house Malibu, like
that rich house, but we were like I was driving
a Ford Probe and everybody would come in and out
of that whole strip of beach that was whrest alone
was you know, Carbon Canyon. This is this expensive people
who don't know Malibu strip that Now the houses are
(08:15):
fifty sixty one hundred million dollars. This house was probably
like five six million then. And down the street was
a man named Kevin O'Donnell, and he rented out Bruce
Willis's house, and he had come into new big tech
bubble money and he used to have these big parties,
and my friend was friends with him, so we were
good friends with him. And every weekend we were girls
(08:36):
that got to hang out at this house where every
power agent, the people running Hollywood, now no exaggeration, like
Oliver Stone was through there, Patrick White, so Us, every
Leo Decap, everybody was through these houses. And there were
these amazing parties, and it was so great to be
like the girls. And we didn't hook up with anybody,
wouldn't have to do anything, but the girls that were
(08:57):
friends with this guy who was really wasted all the time.
We became friends with his wife too, that they had
like an interesting marriage. We were too young to understand
non traditional marriages and billionaires and tech money, but we
loved being able to hang out there. We were poor
girls that were like getting to eat and drink like
for free, and have massages and go to these parties
(09:18):
and meet people. And it was like, I'm glad for
the stories that happened. I'm sure we could have gotten
ourselves into trouble. I grew up at the racetrack really
down and dirty, so I was able to handle myself.
But I relate to what I think you were saying,
and the story you're going to tell because that's what
LA was for many people.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, totally. You know, for somebody like a young girl
from the middle of nowhere, it's a very expensive place
to live, especially if you don't know anybody. So yeah,
if you got an opportunity like that, people want to
take it.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And what did you want to be when you grew up.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I didn't have anything particular in mind. I wanted to
do something in the entertainment industry. I wasn't sure why.
I definitely wanted to to be in Playboy. I was
just auditioning and doing all the things, but trying to
keep my grades up in college to keep my scholarships
and work as full time as I could, you know,
to pay the rent, and also audition. I was just
kind of failing at all of it because I was
trying to do too much.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
And what about the sexual aspect, like having sex with
multiple partners and it's almost like what is it called
polyamorous or like what was that dynamic between the women?
It sounds like it's from not only another generation, but
another culture.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I mean, I didn't get along with a lot of
the girls. It was really uncomfortable. You know, nobody wants
to be Well, some people do, I guess, but I
don't want to be like really in a room, you know,
having sex with somebody and then having all these other
people around, like all these other girls watching. So that
was really like embarrassing and uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
And that does sound like that move that show, the
Vow the cult, where like this male figure it has
these compartmentalized relationships with different people, very strategically, very intentionally,
and each person is you're the favorite and I love
you in a different way, or you know, I was
met was I was represented by Kendra's agent also, so
(11:17):
I knew her priferly and I've met her, but like, oh,
you're the cute, sporty one, it's different for you. And
that's why I think it's interesting that you've talked about
Stockholm syndrome and the word cult has been thrown around
because it's a situation where a male figure in power
is making all these women feel special in a certain way,
but like not really wanting them to let each other
(11:41):
know that relationship.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah. Absolutely, there was definitely a lot of two faced
stuff going on, you know, letting some girls get away
with some things but not others. Telling one girl one thing.
You know, he loved the drama, he loved the girl's fighting,
and for the longest time, I just didn't see it.
I thought we were super close, and I always kind
of blamed it on the other girls for the longest time,
and I didn't really wake up to that until I
(12:04):
was about ready to leave.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I coming from housewives, find it interesting, and I can't
help but say that it's interesting how the men and
I'm not the woman who's always calling like, oh, the
men are the devil. I'm not that person. I've never
been that person. I'm just a strong person and that's
why I'm successful. But I will say there's a dynamic
where the men, like I see Andy Cohen running this
whole operation of women, but he never gets dirty. The
(12:30):
women are fighting with each other and often on his show,
it's like the intersection of driving more conflict by getting
people to talk about each other, but he remains clean.
And I think that's interesting that you're saying that all
the girls who are supposed to be supporting each other
are fighting. It happens on The Bachelor too, the Bachelor
sitting over there, the women are all fighting with each other,
(12:51):
and the man is remaining clean while women tear each
other down, rip each other apart, and somehow the power
figure is like the king watching the jesters entertain him.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah. It's really toxic for sure. And that was definitely
going on. There interesting a lot of wisted energy, I feel.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah. And what about so you're divorced now, so you're
a single mom?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah? I mean, well, I don't call myself a single mom.
I don't really like it when people who are divorced,
who have a father who's involved with the kids and
doing half the work. I don't like it when people
say single mom. Not to be judgy, but you know,
there's a lot of women out there who really have
to do it themselves and don't have help. So I'm
single and the mom, But I wouldn't I get that.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I like that because you're co parent And yeah, so
you have a good co parent.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Absolutely, he's a great dad. I'm really really lucky.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Wow. Okay. And what about romantic life and dating?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I've been dating the same guy for four years, so
it's good.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Okay. And what do you do you do you want
to get married again?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I'm not opposed to it, but it's not like on
my bucket list. I feel like I had my dream
wedding and all that when I was married the first time,
so I'm not like focused on it.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I get that too, because at a certain you're younger
than I, but at a certain age you're like you
were married. It does become another contract and an entanglement
with another person that might not be necessary if you
don't plan to have more kids, for example, Yeah, exactly, okay,
and you're both going back and forth from Vegas to
La or the bas is Vegas.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
We're both we're both back and forth.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, okay. So if you were sitting on the plane
next to someone and they said what do you do
for a living? What would you say? They didn't know
who you were.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I usually just say I'm a writer.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
You usually say I'm a writer, And then what have
you written? You just tell about and talk about.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Your books, and yeah, yeah, I say I write memoirs.
You know. Sometimes sometimes if I meet somebody and they
ask too many questions, I get really shy and I
probably say a bunch of weird shit I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
And and that too, you think people think because you're shy,
you can be like bitchy or judgmental. You said you.
I read something about you saying that people you don't
know when people are finished talking.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm on the spectrum and I have what
they call flat effect, which means you have a really
monotone voice and your face doesn't show a lot of expressions.
So you know, people have always thought I was super
stuck up or mean or whatever. So that's kind of
like something I've had to learn to handle and like
adjust to you a little bit.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Does it help you because you seem unbothered?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah for sure. I mean well, also, like I'm forty
four and I just feel like I've been this way
for so long. I'm not really trying to change too
much anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So does all the Jeffrey Epstein stuff trigger you thinking
about a man like that and all these young women?
Back to what I was saying before, Like, when you
hear about that, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I mean, it's so crazy. I feel like we probably
don't even know the half of what's going on. It's
such a weird, secretive thing, and it's really terrifying, and
I feel awful that those things happen to those women.
It's really scary.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
And do you do anything, like is that part of
your platform, like with charity or anything sort of like,
is there a message for younger women who are doe
ied coming into these you know, who are young in
their twenties, coming into situations, like how to navigate them,
how to not make the same mistakes maybe that you've made,
or even just cautionary tales. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think it's so important for us to share our
stories so other people can learn from them. I feel
like now, you know, in the mainstream media and just
on podcasts and stuff, people are having conversations about things
that they never would have talked about when I was twenty,
you know what I mean. Just there's a lot less
shame involved in talking about sex and talking about interpersonal relationships,
and I think that's so amazing. Even, you know, scrolling
(16:39):
TikTok on my for you page, I see so much
stuff I can relate to you, whether it's relationship stuff
or other people who are in narcissistic abuse relationships, or
you know, other people who are on the spectrum. I
just think that we live in such an amazing age
as far as learning from one another.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
It's so true. Everyone's talking about everything now. So do
you consider yourself a hustler, Like, are you still working
as hard as you've ever worked? Are you slowing down
at all? And what's driving you now? Is it money?
(17:16):
Is it success? Is it trying to stay relevant knowing
that the landscape has changed.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I definitely still feel like a hustler, but I'm really
careful to like divide my time fifty to fifty. You know,
I have joint custody with my ex husband, so when
I'm with my kids, I try and put my phone
away as much as possible and just completely focus on them.
So like my hustling time is definitely way more limited
than it used to be. But I still feel like
I'm a hustler. And then like shit goes wrong, you know,
(17:42):
like Bridgett and I met up. She's my co host
for my podcast, and we we batch recorded a bunch
of stuff, so we're like, we're not going to be
together for the next six weeks, and then the audio
was messed up on all this stuff, so now we
have to last minute, Like we just were together like
late last night and then again this week. It's like
my worst nightmare, but you know, we have fun doing it,
and I just feel like like I'm definitely not resting
(18:04):
when it comes to that side of my life. And
as far as what drives me, I don't even know
what drives me. You know. I was in a place
where I was married and doing really well financially and
had two amazing kids, and I just kind of had
this weird feeling that I still needed to be putting
something out there and I couldn't really feel what it was.
And now looking back, I think it's more, you know,
(18:25):
I'm sharing my story for a reason because it might
help other people who can relate or might be like
on the brink of getting into some sort of situation.
So it's just kind of this weird, like internal thing.
I'm also a Capricorn, so I'm just never going to
stop working.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I get what you're saying in that, and you're younger
than I am, but it starts to be where you're stacking,
where you have kids and you want the quality versus quantity.
So you're like it started when they were napping as babies,
where you're like, all right, now is when I go
get my manicure, like this is it? Like this is
you know, and then then they get older and you're like, okay,
they're at school, we're doing this, or I don't have
(19:00):
my child for this time. When you first start getting
a divorce, you're having anxiety about that time apart, but
it becomes valuable time because then you can be totally
present with them and totally present without them. I feel
I relate to that one hundred percent, and it's very
it's like chunks, so you can define them versus like
they say that moms now spend more time in many
(19:24):
cases with their kids than the fifties moms that didn't
work because they were like drinking wine, smoking cigarettes, let
the kid out the back, like it wasn't. Just because
you are with your kids doesn't mean you're really with
your kids. So you can do it both ways exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And I'm really grateful for my schedule and I feel
like it works really well for me and allows me
to put my attention where it's best used.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I feel like, yeah, you're like me. Your life is
defined by the calendar, like for sure it makes you
feel safe. Yeah, same, And I also relate to like,
at a certain point, you're kind of like I'm sort
of might be almost retiring, Like I have enough money,
don't need to work, Like I don't want to feel
that like stripped stress I used to feel when I
was climbing, and then you pull back a little and
(20:08):
then you're like, I want to dip in a little more,
like I want to be doing something, but I want
to really only be doing what I want to be
doing or I'm passionate about.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah. Absolutely, there's just if you feel like you have
something to share, something to contribute that somebody might benefit from.
It's like this calling you have and you can't ignore it.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
I feel, yes, And what do you think about now
that being in twenty twenty four versus television really being
one of the only outlets. It used to be the
TV was really where you had to have a platform,
But now you have social media and now you could
do YouTube, you could do Instagram, you could do anything.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
One hundred percent, I'm so grateful for social media and
just being able to share and speak out, Like I
talk about it on my podcast all the time. Bridget
and I are always talking about you know, the old
Girls Nextdoor episodes, and you know what things were like
back then, and things were so different because you really
couldn't speak out if somebody else was putting a narrative
out about you. That was just what everybody believed full stop.
Like back then, we had MySpace pages and you could
(21:03):
write like a little post if you wanted, and maybe
somebody would pick up on it. But it wasn't that,
you know, important, It didn't have the weight that social
media does now. And just I even feel like for
me during the pandemic, when I started a YouTube and
started at TikTok, it was the first time I learned
to really be genuine, like talking to a camera and
really feeling like I was connecting to people because on
the reality shows I was always so scared and like
(21:25):
holding back and like scared of being embarrassed and things
like that. So I'm really grateful for those outlets for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So you feel in control of your edit, I mean,
and you don't miss traditional television.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
No, the stuff I work on now, it's true crime,
so it's more documentary. I feel like that's better suited
to me. I'm super interested in it. I don't miss
like doing reality TV.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I don't either, I really don't, because you're not in
control and you put something in the oven that comes
out six months later and you don't know literally what's
coming out of.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The oven exactly. It's scary.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
It's scary in each week you're living it and like
biting your nails just to see her safe.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And then that defines what people are going to think
of you, and you have to live that out in
the press. It's like a machine and it feels like
Mark Cuban I think it was said to me. We
were talking about cable and places like Bravo, et cetera,
and he was like, it's streamers for old people. I
was laughing, like, you know, it's it's interesting. Now, what
about your kids? It's Rainbow and Forrest. How old are they?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Ten and seven?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Okay, so Rainbow's ten? So does she have any understanding
about your past? Does she have any judgment? Does she
get it?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
What does she? Does she even know you're famous?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
No, she doesn't know anything about it. She knows people
come up to me sometimes and she knows I have
a podcast and a YouTube, but she doesn't know the content.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
I get it because it takes It won't happen until
like thirteen years old, where they'll they just start scrolling
and my daughter's all over it too, but it doesn't
they they disconnect somehow, which is actually positive. Okay, yeah,
they discnt you're a big reader.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I do love reading. I don't have as much time
to read anymore as I would like, but yeah, I
just finished an autobiography from one of the women from
one of the cases of the Playboy murders, because obviously
i'd studied the case before as we were filming it,
but I hadn't read her full autobiography. But I wanted
to get into that before I started doing press for it,
so I just finished that. It was really interesting, and
I'm reading the Rick Rubin book now. It's like a
(23:23):
all about art and getting into your creative process.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yes, Paul, my fiance, is a big reader. He read
that book too. Do you watch a lot of mystery
on TV?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I grew up loving unsolved mysteries. That was my favorite thing,
and I think that's kind of what got me along
the track to being what I'm into now. I do
enjoy true crime programming and true crime podcasts.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
I just subscribed to BritBox because anything with like some small, dark,
rainy town where there's like a murder that's unsolved or
a kidnap, it like, I get so sucked in. Paul's
on into that stuff. He didn't like anything international. He
wants it to be in the United States. I don't
know why. Like if it's like from Scotland, He's like, no,
it's got it's just like a thing, you know, where
you're attracted to things on TV. And if it's Scotland,
(24:08):
if it's like a bizarre like Dublin suburb or Scotland,
I'm like.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
In that's so funny. I'm desperate to go to Scotland. Like,
out of all the places I haven't visited, that's the
one I'm so excited to go to.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Why.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I love anything kind of creepy and eerie and there's
so many ghost stories and I just love the old school,
like old Harry Potter look to everything and the atmosphere
and then like the Isle of Sky and all like
the you know, mystical stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I'm dying to go to Morocco.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Ooh that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, Like that's my that's my place, like yours of
Scotland where it's just like just like I could I
want to eat out of the tajin and the couscous
and like the mystical and the bell rings at night,
like you know, it's just like very spiritual, mystical, and
I'm I'm I want that feeling.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I want you got to do it.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, I think a lot about traditional relationships and non
traditional relationships. And I bring that up because when we're younger,
it's the fairy tale and everybody just I'm starting to
believe half the people want to get married just to
be able to have the wedding and buy the dress,
and then people have these ideals about what it's supposed
to be. But now being in my fifties, having a
(25:18):
fiance who lives in Boston, having my own career, having
my own money, not needing to depend upon anyone for anything,
I think about traditional and non traditional because most people
that I know who have sustained very long relationships, it's
some version of non traditional.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Oh that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, I just want to talk about where you the
relationship that you were in which was so high profile
and so non traditional, that I want to know where
you stand on traditional versus non traditional relationships.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I mean, I'm very non judgmental about what anybody wants
to do. As far as like being monogamous. I'm not
traditional in that way. I don't like, you know, people
messing around.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
With other people saying saying, well, I.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Do think it's so important for everybody to design their
own relationship and have their own boundaries and give each
other their own space and respect their own time. So
it's it's almost like the thing with the coming back
to the kids and putting your full attention, so you're
excited to see each other again. And I think I
bet a lot of people are scared to even try
that because they want to, you know, show this united
(26:27):
front at all times, and they're scared of judgment and
what are the people in the neighborhood going to say.
But I think it's so important for each couple to
communicate and kind of like design what works for them.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I think so too, and I think it evolves. And
I think one of the biggest problems for the younger
generation is that no one's telling them the truth about that.
When you're in your twenties, you think, what are we
doing for dinner? What are we doing this weekend? We
go to your parents, ask my parents as we go
on a vacation, what we like. We are one person
and it's not realistic. What if one person likes to
go to the beach, the other person likes to go skiing.
One person likes to party the other part since boring
(27:00):
goes to bed at nine o'clock at night. I have
a friend who's been married for thirty five years who
he goes to bed at nine and her night starts.
She's on the treadmill, she's eating her candy, she's watching
her show, she's drinking her cocktails. She goes to bed
at one o'clock. She's different life.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Those are some of the best relationships. I think everybody's
allowed to thrive, and then people come together when they want.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, and now also with sixty percent divorce, if you
have two separate individuals, each individual might have children, different jobs,
different like you know, I have my time with my daughter.
I have my time with my daughter and Paul, I
have my time with all of us, blending, I have
my time alone. Like there aren't that many, you know,
(27:43):
even more than quadrants. It's broken up into fifths that
you can't do it like a one size fits all.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, absolutely, I agree with that one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I think I want to talk about that just more
as a general concept because I just think that young
women want that ring and that dress, but they don't
understand that like you can't depend upon another person, you
can't be another person, which is also connected to financial
independence too, I think, by the.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Way, yeah, absolutely, it's so important to maintain your financial
independence one hundred percent. Even if you even if you
think you're never going to have to work again, like
you could be surprised. And also things will happen to you,
like if you decide to not work for a year
and you want some kind of refinancing on something later,
you know, people will tell you, oh, well, why weren't
you working for a year, And it's like, well, I
just had my second kid and I didn't have to,
(28:30):
but they'll hold it against you.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I find that even in a situation where the people
really are equals and it's a partnership, I find that
money is always going to be a source of power
and control. And I find that if you're not, as
a woman making your own money something, it does even
if you have to you don't even realize you have
to ask somebody to buy something you want. You want
(28:55):
an apartment, even if it's a small studio apartment. You
have to ask permission to do this, to do that
because it's quote unquote a partnership. So everybody you know
who wants to ask permission to do something if you
don't have to, I mean, or have some or have
to do something you don't want to do because you're
not the one making the money.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, exactly, one hundred percent. I agree.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
You know, it's like even a situation like I find
that there's a dynamic where young girls have to play
the game, like with the in laws, or different dynamics
because they're not the ones making the gold.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I just think it's an interesting thing money and the
idea of tradition. What was your childhood like like? Was
(29:51):
it quote unquote normal?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I mean, I had two parents who are together. They're
still together now, they're great. We lived in Alaska, out
in the midd of nowhere for the longest time, and
then I moved to Oregon when I was in junior high.
I think probably the biggest obstacle for me was just
like being on the spectrum and not knowing it and
maybe having a little more trouble making friends. So I
felt really isolated, and I think that's part of the
(30:16):
reason I kind of wanted to get into the entertainment industry.
I felt like being known was like a shortcut to
feeling connected with people through like those parasocial relationships, or
even why it was so easy for me to bond
with hef is he's so good at making people feel special,
and I start to think, oh, well, I never really
connected with guys my own age. Maybe this is just
(30:37):
like the person who's meant for me, When really I
can look back and be like, no, girl, you're just
wired differently.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Were you in love with him? Did you love him?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, after I'd been there a while, I did. I
think it was kind of Stockholm syndrome me though, where
I felt very much identified by with or identified with
the person who made all the rules. And especially since
the girls in the house were pitted against each other,
you start to feel a little more isolated and like
you know that man is the one person you can
rely on.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Kind of do you ultimately feel like you could rely
on him? Or it was the it was literally the
quintessential conditional love relationship.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Oh, it's definitely conditional, Like you had to follow every
role to a tee, show up to everything, couldn't really
have a sick day.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Did he leave any of you anything?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Well, I wasn't with him when he passed I was
in the will. I know that before I left, but
then I broke it off with him, So.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
You were in the wall before you left, and I
also having had a very challenging father, I relate to
feeling somewhat dispassionate when someone passes away, and like everyone
else is judging that experience for you, and how can
you be you know, people so many times get up
(31:54):
at a funeral and other people are rolling their eyes
the way they're talking about the person that passed the
way because they have to say something positive because someone's
you're respecting someone who's past. But there's a lot of
complicated feelings about it. So you didn't did you feel
something negative? Did you feel nothing? Did you feel relieved?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I didn't really feel anything. You know, he was so
much older. I kind of felt it was coming relatively soon.
And for me, you know, I was really emotionally involved
in the relationship when I was in it. But when
I decided to leave, it was because I really was
realizing he wasn't the person I was idealizing in my head,
and he was very deceptive and very much playing me
off of other people. So when I made the move
(32:41):
to leave, my image of him kind of shattered in
my mind, and I realized I never really knew this person,
you know. And there would be times, you know, I
would still be shooting my spinoff show for E and
like the producer knew Heff and was always trying to
get me on the phone with Heaf or shoot scenes
with Helf, and sometimes I would, but I never really
want to have like a conversation with him because I
(33:02):
was just I just felt like he was so fake.
Everything he said to me, it was just designed to
manipulate or create a certain impression or keep me on
his good side. So it's almost like he became this
kind of robot in my mind, almost this non person.
So it's hard to feel anything when you feel like
you've never really known them, which is so weird to
say because we spent almost every day of seven years together.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Jesus.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Well, it's funny you say that because I've heard other
people in even way longer marriages say that they're not
connected to their partner, Like some people play different roles.
One's the breadwinner, and it's fun and we're going on
these activities and we're going out to dinner, and we're
going out with other couples and we travel, you can
really burn a lot of time with a lot of bullshit, right,
(33:50):
And I've heard people say like, we don't really sit
down and talk about anything like in long marriages. And
it's weird to realize that, but you could see how
it happens.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, that's sad how that just kind of gets lost,
you know. And then I think people feel kind of
alienated or nervous to try and like flip the script
a little bit. They just kind of get stuck in
a rut.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Well, because that's a dynamic and it's been set up
and it's a it's sort of like sex if sex
is always the same and you're gonna be that weirdo
that it's like hey, spank me, or let's hang from a swing.
It's like a weird thing to be doing with like
a friend that you've been living with for so long
that it's like, wait, what are you doing? You don't
do that. It's like, wait, you eat parsley. You don't
eat parsley. Now you want to be spanked? Like you
(34:31):
know what I mean? Yeah exactly, it's like one day
you want to do things differently. It freaks the other
person out.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Have you had a have you had challenges trusting in
relationships since then?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
One hundred percent. Yeah. Like when I would start dating
after that, I would take a really long time to
get to know somebody, and I would kind of like
prevent myself from getting attached for like at least six
months because I feel like I had a couple really
ships back to back that were very kind of similar,
kind of like controlling narcissistic people, and I just learned
(35:06):
that I need to like chill for like six months
because that's the window I feel just talking with other
friends who've been through it, where somebody will try to
like get their hooks in you and get you to
move in and get you to be financially dependent on them,
and then they start showing their true colors. So it's
definitely made me like slow down with like dating and
getting to know people.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Because that's like the methadone. You're kind of going towards
a similar drug, just like a lesser intense version.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, people are definitely attracted to similar types of people.
It can be a pattern. So yes, I once I
recognized that, I got really careful.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
And did you fully break the pattern or are you
attracted to that, but you intervene.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I feel like the pattern's been broken, Like there's certain
I guess personality traits or things I find attractive that
might be the same, But I'm with a really good
guy now, so it's not the same kind of like
person trying to dominate all my time or trying to
control what I do, or trying to say you need
to be here this time, things like that.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
And do you feel like people also have not trusted
you for the same reason.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Probably, Yeah, I think people are afraid that I'm going
to write a book about them, Oh, things like that,
or so that I would start dating someone and then
all his friends will come out of the wood work
and be like, bro, she's just a gold digger, bro,
you know.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
To right that, Yeah, I could tech at one hundred
percent see that. And then do you feel the need
that you have to prove yourself to the men, like
in business meetings or et cetera, to like, be like,
I'm not the you know, the Chrissy from Three's Company.
You know, Suzanne Summers went through this and she was
the smartest of them all. Be like, I'm not the
dumb blonde character.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Probably, I don't really think about it too much when
I'm having the interactions or in the meeting, because I
feel like when people meet me and talk to me,
they realize kind of right away that I'm not like
that high pitched girl with a pageant smile in My
Girl's next Door interview. You know, it's just a totally
different thing.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Amazing. Wow. Well, I have to say that when it
said you have had a diverse career and what I
read about you, they weren't kidding. I really thought it
was so interesting. I love reading about people and then
meeting them, and like, now I know you, and I
know you more than I know people that I actually know,
because I really, you know, looked into it. I guess
the last question is do you what percentage do you
(37:29):
think you've been lucky and what percentage smart?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Oh? Well, you know what, I think it's kind of
more smart. I've definitely had opportunities, obviously, like being able
to be at the Plateway Mansion led to the reality show,
But I don't ever feel like things even there were
handed to me real easily like maybe some I've seen
other people come through there who were a lot more lucky.
I feel like I always had to be prepared. I
always had to know what I want. I always had
(37:54):
to have my vision board. You know. They always say
like success is a combination of preparation luck, but I
feel like maybe it's just like the Capricorn in me,
But I feel like it's a lot more preparation. Like
when you were through for stuff I want, like I'm
usually told no about several times before it happens.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
And you were on it even from the beginning when
you were living in the house. You were like, this
is something. I'm making this into something. I'm not just
gonna sit on my ass and like be like you know,
the blonde, pretty girl like you were thinking about the
machinations of the situation.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Absolutely, And it was hard to do that too, because
I realized after I moved in, I wasn't allowed to
have a job outside of the mansion. I was not
allowed to go out an audition. I would do it
a little bit, but then you know, stopped. And then
the reality show came along, which I was nervous about doing.
I never really wanted to do a reality show or
like showcase my personal life like that, but it turned
into a great opportunity and I was definitely always thinking
(38:46):
about it. I was always saving, like my pennies and
like making investments and things like that.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Oh well, I guess I didn't ask that question. If
you guys were negotiating your own contract for that show,
he wasn't taking a piece of that. You had your
own money, you could store away like chestnuts, right, or
he was in to ted his hands in that too.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Well, at first, we weren't paid for the show at
all for the first order of episodes, and eventually, you know,
I was complaining to have secretary who was a friend
of mine, and she kind of got on the phone
and talked to people and made sure we got paid.
So we got a little bit of money for the
second half of season one, and then each season the
show was doing so well, we would get a raise,
but we weren't even under contract ourselves, like he negotiated
(39:28):
directly with HEF. They never we were considered like his property,
Like we were never negotiated with directly at all. We
weren't allowed to have our own agents, we weren't allowed
to have our own managers. And then in the last
season of the show, he finally realized HEF didn't have
us under contract, and they're like, this is our most
successful show. You have to have these girls under some
kind of contract.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
So hold on hold, because you've heard about this reality reckoning.
I've been talking about exploitation without compensation, so I have
to ask you about that. But like you E, they
didn't have a contract with you. They had a contract
with the leader of the cult on your girl's behalf,
like as his property. Mm hmmm, yeah, that's why I
(40:09):
brought up Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
It's fucked up, it's crazy. So finally, when he realized
hep didn't have uson under any kind of contract, they
insisted we'd be put under some kind of contract. So
hef had his own production company make up contracts and
I was told that I have to sign this, and
I was hesitanting. I was like, but doesn't that mean
I'm kind of signing a contract to be in the relationship,
Like it seemed a little weird to me. It seemed
(40:32):
a little sketch, And he was like, well, you need
to sign it. It has to be signed today or
the show's getting canceled. All this crazy shit. Kendra was
like away doing a promo trip, so I don't know
how they got her to sign and then Bridget was
in the shower and hef literally walked into her room
and pulled her out of the shower, dripping wet, demanding
her sign this contract. And she said no, I'd like
(40:55):
to have an attorney look at it. And he said,
absolutely not. You need to sign it now or pack
your bags, and she signed it.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Mm hmm. And what how many years in was that?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
This was like the last season? I think it was
either season four or five.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
So you didn't really make money off of that whole
thing a little bit.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
We made not millions, no, not not no, not millions,
and we weren't allowed to pursue our own things or
like take other opportunities or have our own pr or
anything like that.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
And have you ever gone to eat to be like
what the fuck everybody made all this money but us?
Or do you just guys all ignored it? Like I'm
just curious. That's insane, Like you're the biggest example of
what I've been talking about and I haven't talked to
you about it.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I mean, for me, like the person more at fault,
I feel as hef or even the producer of the show,
I feel like he felt like they were making this
deal with this big celebrity who was reclusive and weird
and he was a get for a reality show, and
they just went along with whatever he wanted, and he
I'm sure established the terms. I know he said he
wouldn't the show unless he had a certain producer friend
(42:02):
of his produce it. And also, you know, we were
being filmed shooting our pictorials and things like that, so
there was nudity and we just assumed that, oh, well,
they can't show that on e it has to be blurred.
And we were never told that, like the uncensored footage
was going to be put on DVDs or aired foreign
markets and things like that.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
It's exactly what I'm talking about. How you could shoot
something you've been paid zero dollars season one twenty years later,
you didn't know there was going to be a Hulu
or a Netflix or streaming and Amazon and Dice and
Slice and hey you Australia, Hey you UK, Like you
know this is why some people will sit here and
(42:43):
go come on, Bethany, I mean, do you give a
shit about these people? You knew they signed it's what
they signed up for, and I'm like, it's actually not
what they signed up or they didn't know what they
signed up for because it didn't exist what they signed
up for, Like, is your content still there? It still exists.
I can go watch today. I could go watch you right.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
On streaming services. People even show like pirateed uncensored versions
on YouTube and YouTube won't take it down. It's just
like it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, well, yeah, I think you're being very kind only
holding half responsible, but that there is an estate there.
You probably are owed money. That's insane. You signed your
life away. But that's what I'm talking about. So, yeah,
did a young girl who wanted to be in the
mix famous an opportunity? Of course she took it. Does
she know what the hell she's signing? Per se? Does
(43:33):
she can she afford a lawyer? This is what I'm
talking about, Like it sounds good later, but what the
hell did we know about what lawyer? Look at this? Yeah? Sure,
I guess it looks fine. It was a new world,
yeah for sure. Yeah, very interesting. Wow, So I guess
my question is what do you think of the reality
reckoning or what you've read of it.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I think there should definitely be some kind of regulations
like the things that can relate to for sure, Like
people should know exactly in their contract what they're signing,
Like if nudity gets caught on camera, is it going
to be used, where is it going to be used?
Things like that. I mean, I'm not sure. I'm not
an expert. I don't know what all the regulation should
be or what the best things are, but I think
it's definitely worth looking into because people, like you said,
(44:13):
they get on camera and sign their life away and
the footage is just used for whatever. And luckily, I
think the audience is getting a little more media literate
now where they know not everything they see on TV
is true, but not all the time. A lot of
people tell me, have you seen this Love Is Blind show?
And can you believe they did that? And I'm like,
I can't watch that stuff because I know nothing is real.
(44:33):
Like they will twist your words and if you don't
say what they want you to say in the confessional interview,
they'll frank invite it or they'll make it like you
said it. Or we even had instances on Girls next
Door where editors were called in to come in and
like do an impression of one of the characters, or
do an impression of one of the guest stars or
something if they didn't get what they wanted said, so
(44:54):
you're really just a puppet.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah, it's unbelievable and most people really don't get it. Wow. Well,
I really appreciate you coming on here. It's so nice
to meet you, and I appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Of course me too. It's fun.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
So Holly Madison is beautiful, she is successful, she is smart.
She certainly has been underestimated. And I thought that was
really interesting. I can't even tell you reading about her
was just wild. Like, you know, it's the girl who
was on the Playboy Mansion show. Okay, Like we don't
think about what that actually entailed and what it was
like to be in a relationship with Hugh Hefner. And yes,
(45:33):
you know, I was gonna say there are no victims,
but like young dough Eide girls taking opportunities. I lived
in LA you know I would have taken the opportunity too.
I'm just telling you that I get it. I'm not
going to judge whatsoever, and I'm sure a lot of
people do. But what has she turned this into podcasts
and crime shows and books and beautiful children and marriages
(45:56):
and you know, she's a class act, so I thought
that was really interesting.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Loved her.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I thought she was great, I thought it was interesting
and wow, really I was excited. But that's why I
love the show.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
I get to.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Really dig into who someone is that I would never
have gotten to speak to. So I'm grateful for you
guys for making that happen, like, really making that possible,
because without listening and being interested, we wouldn't be talking
to that woman who definitely sounds really really interesting. Loved
Halley Madison
My guest today's television personality Holly Madison, who is best
known as Hugh Hefner's girlfriend and for her appearance in
the reality show The Girls next Door. She's written two
books about her life in the Playboy Mansion and now
one of the co hosts of the podcast Girl Next Level.
This is just be with Holly Madison. Let's get into it.
(00:34):
How are you? Where are you live in Vegas?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm in La right now. I go back and forth.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
You do, so, where's home base?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
In my heart? Vegas? But it's really like fifty to fifty.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Did you grow up in Vegas?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
No, I've lived there for like the past fifteen years, though.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
And I hear it's sort of like Miami where people
that live there aren't really in South Beach like on
the Strip. And that's what I hear about Vegas, Like
You're not like hanging out at Caesar's Palace.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, for sure. When I was younger, I used to
spend a ton of time on the Strip. But now
now that I'm older, I take things easier.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah, And what is life like in Vegas?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I always say it's like a small town and a
big city combined, because you have everything there you'd want
in a big city, like so much stuff to do,
but it's kind of a small town vibe, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Do you go to like Lake Powell and the water
and places like that on you know, for vacation or
like those houseboats things like that.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Sometimes usually when it gets too hot, I just head
back to La though for a break.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Okay, And what is work in Vegas? Now? So you
have a very interesting story. I kind of would have
known that peripherally obviously for what I've seen in the media,
but after reading about you, just like you know, you
see all these people that you hear about or you
see in the press, and like you don't dig deep
(01:57):
under the hood and like and I'm like, wow, Like
I never really thought this much about Holly Madison and
what a crazy, crazy ride in life. So I can't
wait to talk to you about it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, totally. Yeah. As far as work, I shoot the
Playboy Murtyers there and my other new true crime show
weth Lee Blonde that's coming out in March. We shoot
those in Vegas.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
So you have a pretty big, successful business that continues
and thrives.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I enjoy it. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Do you think that people are surprised, or that they
think of you they've pigeonhole you, pigeonholed you as the
girl in the playboy mansion, and that people don't really
realize the kind of bread of business success that you've had.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
I think so, Yeah, people like to just narrow it
down and be like, oh, the only reason you have
anything as you are on Girls next Door, and they
just because they're not paying attention, which obviously I don't
expect everyone to play super close attention everything I'm doing,
but people like to kind of boil it down to
one thing and think that everything you know comes from that.
But really I've been steadily working just on different things
(03:00):
throughout my life.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yeah, and how many people have been on reality television
and not created a successful business out of it. I mean,
you haven't been on that kind of a mainstream show
like myself for years. And similarly, oh they made you
like they made me. I made them too, you know
(03:22):
what I mean. Like it happens a lot.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, you picked up the torch and you ran with it,
and people don't want to give credit.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
You know, having lived in La I realize what a
small town it is. I've worked for Jerry Bruckheimer and
Lauren Michaels and I worked at La Scala, and I've
had a million jobs, and you end up knowing everyone
way more than New York or other places, like you
know everyone and you know the assistance that become the
studio heads. And having spent so many times at those
(03:49):
Playboy parties and me living out there during that time,
never being invited, but knowing people that would be there.
That guy Shane Black remember, used to have those parties
in loose Feeless, Like there were these big, sort of
alluring parties that were famous in LA. Parties in Malibu.
I came up at the same time as you, and
everybody knew everybody. So the reason I mentioned that is
(04:10):
that I wonder if you run into people a lot
now who like know that you know where all the
dead bodies are buried.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Sometimes yeah, I mean as far as like other parties
in LA. Wasn't really allowed to kind of go anywhere
else too much once I was in the mansion, so
it was kind of just that circle. But I do
run into people a lot who are like, oh, well,
I met you at the mansion, and I'm like, I
don't know, I must have been drunk, like I was
feel bad because so many people would come up and
say hi. To happen. I would say hi as well,
But it's a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Well, have you had any good business relationships? Because of
people mostly men who were there at the house, Like
there are a lot of executives, I know a lot
of them, writers, agents, managers. I mean everybody used to go.
There was no stigma to it like there would be now.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I would say most of my connections that I carry
through are more from E when we were doing girls door,
not so much people I met at the mansion because
for the big parties when more people would come, I
was expected more to just like sit at the table
with half the whole time, and I would say hi
to people who came up and stuff. But I didn't
really get the chance to know a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
I understand, and for people that don't know, most people
don't know. How did you get that opportunity? How did
you become the top Hefner girl to be at that
seat at the table, Like how did that happen? That process?
And where were you living like the whole journey to
get there.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yeah, I was in college and I was going to
the Playboy Mansion parties, which were really like the cool
parties at the time, and I started getting invited to
the pool parties, the Fun and the sun Pool parties
because those were a little more intimate. It was a
much smaller guest list, and you know, I would chat
with half a little bit and stuff. I felt like
I kind of knew him, and a lot of the
girlfriends of his would talk to me and like invite
(05:53):
me out and stuff, And at first I didn't want
to go, but then I decided, you know what, I
kind of want to move in because I had two
roommates at the time who were moving out, and I
didn't really know anybody else, and my credit sucked and
all that, and I thought, you know what, I should
give this thing a try so I'm not homeless. I
thought it would be fun based on the people I
knew at the parties and like that level of access
(06:13):
that I had. Right so I moved in and you know,
got in over my head. I feel it was a
much like more intense situation than I was expected. But
as far as being the number one girlfriend, I feel
like that happened because a few months after I moved in,
the main girlfriend at the time was moving out, and
everybody kind of knew that, and the other girls didn't
want that spot, and they were like, oh, you know,
(06:34):
I think Keath likes you the best. I think you're
going to be the main girlfriend because you know, he
and I would like watch movies together and things like that.
And I always enjoyed like being down at the dinner
table and kind of the quote unquote boring stuff that
the other girls didn't want to do. So it kind
of just naturally happened. It wasn't like something I had
to fight anybody for anything like that.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Was there a contract that had to be signed. Obviously
there was an NBA, but with a salary and benefits,
and it was as if you were taking like a
real job.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Absolutely not. I think a lot of people picture that.
I think, you know, people love to be like you
knew exactly what you were getting into. I think they
picture that scene in Fifty Shades of Gray where she
sits down at that conference table and she's given that
fat stack of papers to sign. But it was nothing
like that. There was no NDA, there was no contract,
there was no benefits, really like he would pay for
(07:26):
people's medical expenses and like doctor's appointments and stuff that
lived there, but it was all very informal in that way.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Well, I'm going to share something because I think that
it's easy for people to judge that situation, people who
have daughters, like, how the hell, how did your mother
let you all of these things? And yet we see
all these things happen. I lived in la and when
I worked for Jerry Brookhimer, he had another house that
he was renting out to different people, like Steve Tish
(07:54):
who did for his gumber, Jennifer Tilly, one of the Tillies,
and we got to be in that house Malibu, like
that rich house, but we were like I was driving
a Ford Probe and everybody would come in and out
of that whole strip of beach that was whrest alone
was you know, Carbon Canyon. This is this expensive people
who don't know Malibu strip that Now the houses are
(08:15):
fifty sixty one hundred million dollars. This house was probably
like five six million then. And down the street was
a man named Kevin O'Donnell, and he rented out Bruce
Willis's house, and he had come into new big tech
bubble money and he used to have these big parties,
and my friend was friends with him, so we were
good friends with him. And every weekend we were girls
(08:36):
that got to hang out at this house where every
power agent, the people running Hollywood, now no exaggeration, like
Oliver Stone was through there, Patrick White, so Us, every
Leo Decap, everybody was through these houses. And there were
these amazing parties, and it was so great to be
like the girls. And we didn't hook up with anybody,
wouldn't have to do anything, but the girls that were
(08:57):
friends with this guy who was really wasted all the time.
We became friends with his wife too, that they had
like an interesting marriage. We were too young to understand
non traditional marriages and billionaires and tech money, but we
loved being able to hang out there. We were poor
girls that were like getting to eat and drink like
for free, and have massages and go to these parties
(09:18):
and meet people. And it was like, I'm glad for
the stories that happened. I'm sure we could have gotten
ourselves into trouble. I grew up at the racetrack really
down and dirty, so I was able to handle myself.
But I relate to what I think you were saying,
and the story you're going to tell because that's what
LA was for many people.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yeah, totally. You know, for somebody like a young girl
from the middle of nowhere, it's a very expensive place
to live, especially if you don't know anybody. So yeah,
if you got an opportunity like that, people want to
take it.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
And what did you want to be when you grew up.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
I didn't have anything particular in mind. I wanted to
do something in the entertainment industry. I wasn't sure why.
I definitely wanted to to be in Playboy. I was
just auditioning and doing all the things, but trying to
keep my grades up in college to keep my scholarships
and work as full time as I could, you know,
to pay the rent, and also audition. I was just
kind of failing at all of it because I was
trying to do too much.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
And what about the sexual aspect, like having sex with
multiple partners and it's almost like what is it called
polyamorous or like what was that dynamic between the women?
It sounds like it's from not only another generation, but
another culture.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
I mean, I didn't get along with a lot of
the girls. It was really uncomfortable. You know, nobody wants
to be Well, some people do, I guess, but I
don't want to be like really in a room, you know,
having sex with somebody and then having all these other
people around, like all these other girls watching. So that
was really like embarrassing and uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
And that does sound like that move that show, the
Vow the cult, where like this male figure it has
these compartmentalized relationships with different people, very strategically, very intentionally,
and each person is you're the favorite and I love
you in a different way, or you know, I was
met was I was represented by Kendra's agent also, so
(11:17):
I knew her priferly and I've met her, but like, oh,
you're the cute, sporty one, it's different for you. And
that's why I think it's interesting that you've talked about
Stockholm syndrome and the word cult has been thrown around
because it's a situation where a male figure in power
is making all these women feel special in a certain way,
but like not really wanting them to let each other
(11:41):
know that relationship.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Yeah. Absolutely, there was definitely a lot of two faced
stuff going on, you know, letting some girls get away
with some things but not others. Telling one girl one thing.
You know, he loved the drama, he loved the girl's fighting,
and for the longest time, I just didn't see it.
I thought we were super close, and I always kind
of blamed it on the other girls for the longest time,
and I didn't really wake up to that until I
(12:04):
was about ready to leave.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I coming from housewives, find it interesting, and I can't
help but say that it's interesting how the men and
I'm not the woman who's always calling like, oh, the
men are the devil. I'm not that person. I've never
been that person. I'm just a strong person and that's
why I'm successful. But I will say there's a dynamic
where the men, like I see Andy Cohen running this
whole operation of women, but he never gets dirty. The
(12:30):
women are fighting with each other and often on his show,
it's like the intersection of driving more conflict by getting
people to talk about each other, but he remains clean.
And I think that's interesting that you're saying that all
the girls who are supposed to be supporting each other
are fighting. It happens on The Bachelor too, the Bachelor
sitting over there, the women are all fighting with each other,
(12:51):
and the man is remaining clean while women tear each
other down, rip each other apart, and somehow the power
figure is like the king watching the jesters entertain him.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah. It's really toxic for sure. And that was definitely
going on. There interesting a lot of wisted energy, I feel.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah. And what about so you're divorced now, so you're
a single mom?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah? I mean, well, I don't call myself a single mom.
I don't really like it when people who are divorced,
who have a father who's involved with the kids and
doing half the work. I don't like it when people
say single mom. Not to be judgy, but you know,
there's a lot of women out there who really have
to do it themselves and don't have help. So I'm
single and the mom, But I wouldn't I get that.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I like that because you're co parent And yeah, so
you have a good co parent.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Absolutely, he's a great dad. I'm really really lucky.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Wow. Okay. And what about romantic life and dating?
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I've been dating the same guy for four years, so
it's good.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Okay. And what do you do you do you want
to get married again?
Speaker 2 (13:52):
I'm not opposed to it, but it's not like on
my bucket list. I feel like I had my dream
wedding and all that when I was married the first time,
so I'm not like focused on it.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
I get that too, because at a certain you're younger
than I, but at a certain age you're like you
were married. It does become another contract and an entanglement
with another person that might not be necessary if you
don't plan to have more kids, for example, Yeah, exactly, okay,
and you're both going back and forth from Vegas to
La or the bas is Vegas.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
We're both we're both back and forth.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, okay. So if you were sitting on the plane
next to someone and they said what do you do
for a living? What would you say? They didn't know
who you were.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I usually just say I'm a writer.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
You usually say I'm a writer, And then what have
you written? You just tell about and talk about.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Your books, and yeah, yeah, I say I write memoirs.
You know. Sometimes sometimes if I meet somebody and they
ask too many questions, I get really shy and I
probably say a bunch of weird shit I don't know.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
And and that too, you think people think because you're shy,
you can be like bitchy or judgmental. You said you.
I read something about you saying that people you don't
know when people are finished talking.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm on the spectrum and I have what
they call flat effect, which means you have a really
monotone voice and your face doesn't show a lot of expressions.
So you know, people have always thought I was super
stuck up or mean or whatever. So that's kind of
like something I've had to learn to handle and like
adjust to you a little bit.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Does it help you because you seem unbothered?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Yeah for sure. I mean well, also, like I'm forty
four and I just feel like I've been this way
for so long. I'm not really trying to change too
much anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So does all the Jeffrey Epstein stuff trigger you thinking
about a man like that and all these young women?
Back to what I was saying before, Like, when you
hear about that, what do you think?
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I mean, it's so crazy. I feel like we probably
don't even know the half of what's going on. It's
such a weird, secretive thing, and it's really terrifying, and
I feel awful that those things happen to those women.
It's really scary.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
And do you do anything, like is that part of
your platform, like with charity or anything sort of like,
is there a message for younger women who are doe
ied coming into these you know, who are young in
their twenties, coming into situations, like how to navigate them,
how to not make the same mistakes maybe that you've made,
or even just cautionary tales. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
I think it's so important for us to share our
stories so other people can learn from them. I feel
like now, you know, in the mainstream media and just
on podcasts and stuff, people are having conversations about things
that they never would have talked about when I was twenty,
you know what I mean. Just there's a lot less
shame involved in talking about sex and talking about interpersonal relationships,
and I think that's so amazing. Even, you know, scrolling
(16:39):
TikTok on my for you page, I see so much
stuff I can relate to you, whether it's relationship stuff
or other people who are in narcissistic abuse relationships, or
you know, other people who are on the spectrum. I
just think that we live in such an amazing age
as far as learning from one another.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
It's so true. Everyone's talking about everything now. So do
you consider yourself a hustler, Like, are you still working
as hard as you've ever worked? Are you slowing down
at all? And what's driving you now? Is it money?
(17:16):
Is it success? Is it trying to stay relevant knowing
that the landscape has changed.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
I definitely still feel like a hustler, but I'm really
careful to like divide my time fifty to fifty. You know,
I have joint custody with my ex husband, so when
I'm with my kids, I try and put my phone
away as much as possible and just completely focus on them.
So like my hustling time is definitely way more limited
than it used to be. But I still feel like
I'm a hustler. And then like shit goes wrong, you know,
(17:42):
like Bridgett and I met up. She's my co host
for my podcast, and we we batch recorded a bunch
of stuff, so we're like, we're not going to be
together for the next six weeks, and then the audio
was messed up on all this stuff, so now we
have to last minute, Like we just were together like
late last night and then again this week. It's like
my worst nightmare, but you know, we have fun doing it,
and I just feel like like I'm definitely not resting
(18:04):
when it comes to that side of my life. And
as far as what drives me, I don't even know
what drives me. You know. I was in a place
where I was married and doing really well financially and
had two amazing kids, and I just kind of had
this weird feeling that I still needed to be putting
something out there and I couldn't really feel what it was.
And now looking back, I think it's more, you know,
(18:25):
I'm sharing my story for a reason because it might
help other people who can relate or might be like
on the brink of getting into some sort of situation.
So it's just kind of this weird, like internal thing.
I'm also a Capricorn, so I'm just never going to
stop working.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
I get what you're saying in that, and you're younger
than I am, but it starts to be where you're stacking,
where you have kids and you want the quality versus quantity.
So you're like it started when they were napping as babies,
where you're like, all right, now is when I go
get my manicure, like this is it? Like this is
you know, and then then they get older and you're like, okay,
they're at school, we're doing this, or I don't have
(19:00):
my child for this time. When you first start getting
a divorce, you're having anxiety about that time apart, but
it becomes valuable time because then you can be totally
present with them and totally present without them. I feel
I relate to that one hundred percent, and it's very
it's like chunks, so you can define them versus like
they say that moms now spend more time in many
(19:24):
cases with their kids than the fifties moms that didn't
work because they were like drinking wine, smoking cigarettes, let
the kid out the back, like it wasn't. Just because
you are with your kids doesn't mean you're really with
your kids. So you can do it both ways exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And I'm really grateful for my schedule and I feel
like it works really well for me and allows me
to put my attention where it's best used.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I feel like, yeah, you're like me. Your life is
defined by the calendar, like for sure it makes you
feel safe. Yeah, same, And I also relate to like,
at a certain point, you're kind of like I'm sort
of might be almost retiring, Like I have enough money,
don't need to work, Like I don't want to feel
that like stripped stress I used to feel when I
was climbing, and then you pull back a little and
(20:08):
then you're like, I want to dip in a little more,
like I want to be doing something, but I want
to really only be doing what I want to be
doing or I'm passionate about.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah. Absolutely, there's just if you feel like you have
something to share, something to contribute that somebody might benefit from.
It's like this calling you have and you can't ignore it.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
I feel, yes, And what do you think about now
that being in twenty twenty four versus television really being
one of the only outlets. It used to be the
TV was really where you had to have a platform,
But now you have social media and now you could
do YouTube, you could do Instagram, you could do anything.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
One hundred percent, I'm so grateful for social media and
just being able to share and speak out, Like I
talk about it on my podcast all the time. Bridget
and I are always talking about you know, the old
Girls Nextdoor episodes, and you know what things were like
back then, and things were so different because you really
couldn't speak out if somebody else was putting a narrative
out about you. That was just what everybody believed full stop.
Like back then, we had MySpace pages and you could
(21:03):
write like a little post if you wanted, and maybe
somebody would pick up on it. But it wasn't that,
you know, important, It didn't have the weight that social
media does now. And just I even feel like for
me during the pandemic, when I started a YouTube and
started at TikTok, it was the first time I learned
to really be genuine, like talking to a camera and
really feeling like I was connecting to people because on
the reality shows I was always so scared and like
(21:25):
holding back and like scared of being embarrassed and things
like that. So I'm really grateful for those outlets for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So you feel in control of your edit, I mean,
and you don't miss traditional television.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
No, the stuff I work on now, it's true crime,
so it's more documentary. I feel like that's better suited
to me. I'm super interested in it. I don't miss
like doing reality TV.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
I don't either, I really don't, because you're not in
control and you put something in the oven that comes
out six months later and you don't know literally what's
coming out of.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
The oven exactly. It's scary.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
It's scary in each week you're living it and like
biting your nails just to see her safe.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And then that defines what people are going to think
of you, and you have to live that out in
the press. It's like a machine and it feels like
Mark Cuban I think it was said to me. We
were talking about cable and places like Bravo, et cetera,
and he was like, it's streamers for old people. I
was laughing, like, you know, it's it's interesting. Now, what
about your kids? It's Rainbow and Forrest. How old are they?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Ten and seven?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Okay, so Rainbow's ten? So does she have any understanding
about your past? Does she have any judgment? Does she
get it?
Speaker 2 (22:36):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:36):
What does she? Does she even know you're famous?
Speaker 2 (22:38):
No, she doesn't know anything about it. She knows people
come up to me sometimes and she knows I have
a podcast and a YouTube, but she doesn't know the content.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
I get it because it takes It won't happen until
like thirteen years old, where they'll they just start scrolling
and my daughter's all over it too, but it doesn't
they they disconnect somehow, which is actually positive. Okay, yeah,
they discnt you're a big reader.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I do love reading. I don't have as much time
to read anymore as I would like, but yeah, I
just finished an autobiography from one of the women from
one of the cases of the Playboy murders, because obviously
i'd studied the case before as we were filming it,
but I hadn't read her full autobiography. But I wanted
to get into that before I started doing press for it,
so I just finished that. It was really interesting, and
I'm reading the Rick Rubin book now. It's like a
(23:23):
all about art and getting into your creative process.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yes, Paul, my fiance, is a big reader. He read
that book too. Do you watch a lot of mystery
on TV?
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I grew up loving unsolved mysteries. That was my favorite thing,
and I think that's kind of what got me along
the track to being what I'm into now. I do
enjoy true crime programming and true crime podcasts.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
I just subscribed to BritBox because anything with like some small, dark,
rainy town where there's like a murder that's unsolved or
a kidnap, it like, I get so sucked in. Paul's
on into that stuff. He didn't like anything international. He
wants it to be in the United States. I don't
know why. Like if it's like from Scotland, He's like, no,
it's got it's just like a thing, you know, where
you're attracted to things on TV. And if it's Scotland,
(24:08):
if it's like a bizarre like Dublin suburb or Scotland,
I'm like.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
In that's so funny. I'm desperate to go to Scotland. Like,
out of all the places I haven't visited, that's the
one I'm so excited to go to.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Why.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I love anything kind of creepy and eerie and there's
so many ghost stories and I just love the old school,
like old Harry Potter look to everything and the atmosphere
and then like the Isle of Sky and all like
the you know, mystical stuff.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I'm dying to go to Morocco.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Ooh that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, Like that's my that's my place, like yours of
Scotland where it's just like just like I could I
want to eat out of the tajin and the couscous
and like the mystical and the bell rings at night,
like you know, it's just like very spiritual, mystical, and
I'm I'm I want that feeling.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I want you got to do it.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Yeah, I think a lot about traditional relationships and non
traditional relationships. And I bring that up because when we're younger,
it's the fairy tale and everybody just I'm starting to
believe half the people want to get married just to
be able to have the wedding and buy the dress,
and then people have these ideals about what it's supposed
to be. But now being in my fifties, having a
(25:18):
fiance who lives in Boston, having my own career, having
my own money, not needing to depend upon anyone for anything,
I think about traditional and non traditional because most people
that I know who have sustained very long relationships, it's
some version of non traditional.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Oh that's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah, I just want to talk about where you the
relationship that you were in which was so high profile
and so non traditional, that I want to know where
you stand on traditional versus non traditional relationships.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I mean, I'm very non judgmental about what anybody wants
to do. As far as like being monogamous. I'm not
traditional in that way. I don't like, you know, people
messing around.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
With other people saying saying, well, I.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Do think it's so important for everybody to design their
own relationship and have their own boundaries and give each
other their own space and respect their own time. So
it's it's almost like the thing with the coming back
to the kids and putting your full attention, so you're
excited to see each other again. And I think I
bet a lot of people are scared to even try
that because they want to, you know, show this united
(26:27):
front at all times, and they're scared of judgment and
what are the people in the neighborhood going to say.
But I think it's so important for each couple to
communicate and kind of like design what works for them.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I think so too, and I think it evolves. And
I think one of the biggest problems for the younger
generation is that no one's telling them the truth about that.
When you're in your twenties, you think, what are we
doing for dinner? What are we doing this weekend? We
go to your parents, ask my parents as we go
on a vacation, what we like. We are one person
and it's not realistic. What if one person likes to
go to the beach, the other person likes to go skiing.
One person likes to party the other part since boring
(27:00):
goes to bed at nine o'clock at night. I have
a friend who's been married for thirty five years who
he goes to bed at nine and her night starts.
She's on the treadmill, she's eating her candy, she's watching
her show, she's drinking her cocktails. She goes to bed
at one o'clock. She's different life.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Those are some of the best relationships. I think everybody's
allowed to thrive, and then people come together when they want.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Yeah, and now also with sixty percent divorce, if you
have two separate individuals, each individual might have children, different jobs,
different like you know, I have my time with my daughter.
I have my time with my daughter and Paul, I
have my time with all of us, blending, I have
my time alone. Like there aren't that many, you know,
(27:43):
even more than quadrants. It's broken up into fifths that
you can't do it like a one size fits all.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, absolutely, I agree with that one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I think I want to talk about that just more
as a general concept because I just think that young
women want that ring and that dress, but they don't
understand that like you can't depend upon another person, you
can't be another person, which is also connected to financial
independence too, I think, by the.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Way, yeah, absolutely, it's so important to maintain your financial
independence one hundred percent. Even if you even if you
think you're never going to have to work again, like
you could be surprised. And also things will happen to you,
like if you decide to not work for a year
and you want some kind of refinancing on something later,
you know, people will tell you, oh, well, why weren't
you working for a year, And it's like, well, I
just had my second kid and I didn't have to,
(28:30):
but they'll hold it against you.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I find that even in a situation where the people
really are equals and it's a partnership, I find that
money is always going to be a source of power
and control. And I find that if you're not, as
a woman making your own money something, it does even
if you have to you don't even realize you have
to ask somebody to buy something you want. You want
(28:55):
an apartment, even if it's a small studio apartment. You
have to ask permission to do this, to do that
because it's quote unquote a partnership. So everybody you know
who wants to ask permission to do something if you
don't have to, I mean, or have some or have
to do something you don't want to do because you're
not the one making the money.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah, exactly, one hundred percent. I agree.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
You know, it's like even a situation like I find
that there's a dynamic where young girls have to play
the game, like with the in laws, or different dynamics
because they're not the ones making the gold.
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I just think it's an interesting thing money and the
idea of tradition. What was your childhood like like? Was
(29:51):
it quote unquote normal?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I mean, I had two parents who are together. They're
still together now, they're great. We lived in Alaska, out
in the midd of nowhere for the longest time, and
then I moved to Oregon when I was in junior high.
I think probably the biggest obstacle for me was just
like being on the spectrum and not knowing it and
maybe having a little more trouble making friends. So I
felt really isolated, and I think that's part of the
(30:16):
reason I kind of wanted to get into the entertainment industry.
I felt like being known was like a shortcut to
feeling connected with people through like those parasocial relationships, or
even why it was so easy for me to bond
with hef is he's so good at making people feel special,
and I start to think, oh, well, I never really
connected with guys my own age. Maybe this is just
(30:37):
like the person who's meant for me, When really I
can look back and be like, no, girl, you're just
wired differently.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Were you in love with him? Did you love him?
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, after I'd been there a while, I did. I
think it was kind of Stockholm syndrome me though, where
I felt very much identified by with or identified with
the person who made all the rules. And especially since
the girls in the house were pitted against each other,
you start to feel a little more isolated and like
you know that man is the one person you can
rely on.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Kind of do you ultimately feel like you could rely
on him? Or it was the it was literally the
quintessential conditional love relationship.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Oh, it's definitely conditional, Like you had to follow every
role to a tee, show up to everything, couldn't really
have a sick day.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
Did he leave any of you anything?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
Well, I wasn't with him when he passed I was
in the will. I know that before I left, but
then I broke it off with him, So.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
You were in the wall before you left, and I
also having had a very challenging father, I relate to
feeling somewhat dispassionate when someone passes away, and like everyone
else is judging that experience for you, and how can
you be you know, people so many times get up
(31:54):
at a funeral and other people are rolling their eyes
the way they're talking about the person that passed the
way because they have to say something positive because someone's
you're respecting someone who's past. But there's a lot of
complicated feelings about it. So you didn't did you feel
something negative? Did you feel nothing? Did you feel relieved?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I didn't really feel anything. You know, he was so
much older. I kind of felt it was coming relatively soon.
And for me, you know, I was really emotionally involved
in the relationship when I was in it. But when
I decided to leave, it was because I really was
realizing he wasn't the person I was idealizing in my head,
and he was very deceptive and very much playing me
off of other people. So when I made the move
(32:41):
to leave, my image of him kind of shattered in
my mind, and I realized I never really knew this person,
you know. And there would be times, you know, I
would still be shooting my spinoff show for E and
like the producer knew Heff and was always trying to
get me on the phone with Heaf or shoot scenes
with Helf, and sometimes I would, but I never really
want to have like a conversation with him because I
(33:02):
was just I just felt like he was so fake.
Everything he said to me, it was just designed to
manipulate or create a certain impression or keep me on
his good side. So it's almost like he became this
kind of robot in my mind, almost this non person.
So it's hard to feel anything when you feel like
you've never really known them, which is so weird to
say because we spent almost every day of seven years together.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Jesus.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
Well, it's funny you say that because I've heard other
people in even way longer marriages say that they're not
connected to their partner, Like some people play different roles.
One's the breadwinner, and it's fun and we're going on
these activities and we're going out to dinner, and we're
going out with other couples and we travel, you can
really burn a lot of time with a lot of bullshit, right,
(33:50):
And I've heard people say like, we don't really sit
down and talk about anything like in long marriages. And
it's weird to realize that, but you could see how
it happens.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, that's sad how that just kind of gets lost,
you know. And then I think people feel kind of
alienated or nervous to try and like flip the script
a little bit. They just kind of get stuck in
a rut.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Well, because that's a dynamic and it's been set up
and it's a it's sort of like sex if sex
is always the same and you're gonna be that weirdo
that it's like hey, spank me, or let's hang from a swing.
It's like a weird thing to be doing with like
a friend that you've been living with for so long
that it's like, wait, what are you doing? You don't
do that. It's like, wait, you eat parsley. You don't
eat parsley. Now you want to be spanked? Like you
(34:31):
know what I mean? Yeah exactly, it's like one day
you want to do things differently. It freaks the other
person out.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
Have you had a have you had challenges trusting in
relationships since then?
Speaker 2 (34:44):
One hundred percent. Yeah. Like when I would start dating
after that, I would take a really long time to
get to know somebody, and I would kind of like
prevent myself from getting attached for like at least six
months because I feel like I had a couple really
ships back to back that were very kind of similar,
kind of like controlling narcissistic people, and I just learned
(35:06):
that I need to like chill for like six months
because that's the window I feel just talking with other
friends who've been through it, where somebody will try to
like get their hooks in you and get you to
move in and get you to be financially dependent on them,
and then they start showing their true colors. So it's
definitely made me like slow down with like dating and
getting to know people.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Because that's like the methadone. You're kind of going towards
a similar drug, just like a lesser intense version.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Yeah, people are definitely attracted to similar types of people.
It can be a pattern. So yes, I once I
recognized that, I got really careful.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
And did you fully break the pattern or are you
attracted to that, but you intervene.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I feel like the pattern's been broken, Like there's certain
I guess personality traits or things I find attractive that
might be the same, But I'm with a really good
guy now, so it's not the same kind of like
person trying to dominate all my time or trying to
control what I do, or trying to say you need
to be here this time, things like that.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
And do you feel like people also have not trusted
you for the same reason.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Probably, Yeah, I think people are afraid that I'm going
to write a book about them, Oh, things like that,
or so that I would start dating someone and then
all his friends will come out of the wood work
and be like, bro, she's just a gold digger, bro,
you know.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
To right that, Yeah, I could tech at one hundred
percent see that. And then do you feel the need
that you have to prove yourself to the men, like
in business meetings or et cetera, to like, be like,
I'm not the you know, the Chrissy from Three's Company.
You know, Suzanne Summers went through this and she was
the smartest of them all. Be like, I'm not the
dumb blonde character.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Probably, I don't really think about it too much when
I'm having the interactions or in the meeting, because I
feel like when people meet me and talk to me,
they realize kind of right away that I'm not like
that high pitched girl with a pageant smile in My
Girl's next Door interview. You know, it's just a totally
different thing.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Amazing. Wow. Well, I have to say that when it
said you have had a diverse career and what I
read about you, they weren't kidding. I really thought it
was so interesting. I love reading about people and then
meeting them, and like, now I know you, and I
know you more than I know people that I actually know,
because I really, you know, looked into it. I guess
the last question is do you what percentage do you
(37:29):
think you've been lucky and what percentage smart?
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Oh? Well, you know what, I think it's kind of
more smart. I've definitely had opportunities, obviously, like being able
to be at the Plateway Mansion led to the reality show,
But I don't ever feel like things even there were
handed to me real easily like maybe some I've seen
other people come through there who were a lot more lucky.
I feel like I always had to be prepared. I
always had to know what I want. I always had
(37:54):
to have my vision board. You know. They always say
like success is a combination of preparation luck, but I
feel like maybe it's just like the Capricorn in me,
But I feel like it's a lot more preparation. Like
when you were through for stuff I want, like I'm
usually told no about several times before it happens.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
And you were on it even from the beginning when
you were living in the house. You were like, this
is something. I'm making this into something. I'm not just
gonna sit on my ass and like be like you know,
the blonde, pretty girl like you were thinking about the
machinations of the situation.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Absolutely, And it was hard to do that too, because
I realized after I moved in, I wasn't allowed to
have a job outside of the mansion. I was not
allowed to go out an audition. I would do it
a little bit, but then you know, stopped. And then
the reality show came along, which I was nervous about doing.
I never really wanted to do a reality show or
like showcase my personal life like that, but it turned
into a great opportunity and I was definitely always thinking
(38:46):
about it. I was always saving, like my pennies and
like making investments and things like that.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Oh well, I guess I didn't ask that question. If
you guys were negotiating your own contract for that show,
he wasn't taking a piece of that. You had your
own money, you could store away like chestnuts, right, or
he was in to ted his hands in that too.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Well, at first, we weren't paid for the show at
all for the first order of episodes, and eventually, you know,
I was complaining to have secretary who was a friend
of mine, and she kind of got on the phone
and talked to people and made sure we got paid.
So we got a little bit of money for the
second half of season one, and then each season the
show was doing so well, we would get a raise,
but we weren't even under contract ourselves, like he negotiated
(39:28):
directly with HEF. They never we were considered like his property,
Like we were never negotiated with directly at all. We
weren't allowed to have our own agents, we weren't allowed
to have our own managers. And then in the last
season of the show, he finally realized HEF didn't have
us under contract, and they're like, this is our most
successful show. You have to have these girls under some
kind of contract.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
So hold on hold, because you've heard about this reality reckoning.
I've been talking about exploitation without compensation, so I have
to ask you about that. But like you E, they
didn't have a contract with you. They had a contract
with the leader of the cult on your girl's behalf,
like as his property. Mm hmmm, yeah, that's why I
(40:09):
brought up Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
It's fucked up, it's crazy. So finally, when he realized
hep didn't have uson under any kind of contract, they
insisted we'd be put under some kind of contract. So
hef had his own production company make up contracts and
I was told that I have to sign this, and
I was hesitanting. I was like, but doesn't that mean
I'm kind of signing a contract to be in the relationship,
Like it seemed a little weird to me. It seemed
(40:32):
a little sketch, And he was like, well, you need
to sign it. It has to be signed today or
the show's getting canceled. All this crazy shit. Kendra was
like away doing a promo trip, so I don't know
how they got her to sign and then Bridget was
in the shower and hef literally walked into her room
and pulled her out of the shower, dripping wet, demanding
her sign this contract. And she said no, I'd like
(40:55):
to have an attorney look at it. And he said,
absolutely not. You need to sign it now or pack
your bags, and she signed it.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Mm hmm. And what how many years in was that?
Speaker 2 (41:05):
This was like the last season? I think it was
either season four or five.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
So you didn't really make money off of that whole
thing a little bit.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
We made not millions, no, not not no, not millions,
and we weren't allowed to pursue our own things or
like take other opportunities or have our own pr or
anything like that.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
And have you ever gone to eat to be like
what the fuck everybody made all this money but us?
Or do you just guys all ignored it? Like I'm
just curious. That's insane, Like you're the biggest example of
what I've been talking about and I haven't talked to
you about it.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
I mean, for me, like the person more at fault,
I feel as hef or even the producer of the show,
I feel like he felt like they were making this
deal with this big celebrity who was reclusive and weird
and he was a get for a reality show, and
they just went along with whatever he wanted, and he
I'm sure established the terms. I know he said he
wouldn't the show unless he had a certain producer friend
(42:02):
of his produce it. And also, you know, we were
being filmed shooting our pictorials and things like that, so
there was nudity and we just assumed that, oh, well,
they can't show that on e it has to be blurred.
And we were never told that, like the uncensored footage
was going to be put on DVDs or aired foreign
markets and things like that.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
It's exactly what I'm talking about. How you could shoot
something you've been paid zero dollars season one twenty years later,
you didn't know there was going to be a Hulu
or a Netflix or streaming and Amazon and Dice and
Slice and hey you Australia, Hey you UK, Like you
know this is why some people will sit here and
(42:43):
go come on, Bethany, I mean, do you give a
shit about these people? You knew they signed it's what
they signed up for, and I'm like, it's actually not
what they signed up or they didn't know what they
signed up for because it didn't exist what they signed
up for, Like, is your content still there? It still exists.
I can go watch today. I could go watch you right.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
On streaming services. People even show like pirateed uncensored versions
on YouTube and YouTube won't take it down. It's just
like it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, well, yeah, I think you're being very kind only
holding half responsible, but that there is an estate there.
You probably are owed money. That's insane. You signed your
life away. But that's what I'm talking about. So, yeah,
did a young girl who wanted to be in the
mix famous an opportunity? Of course she took it. Does
she know what the hell she's signing? Per se? Does
(43:33):
she can she afford a lawyer? This is what I'm
talking about, Like it sounds good later, but what the
hell did we know about what lawyer? Look at this? Yeah? Sure,
I guess it looks fine. It was a new world,
yeah for sure. Yeah, very interesting. Wow, So I guess
my question is what do you think of the reality
reckoning or what you've read of it.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
I think there should definitely be some kind of regulations
like the things that can relate to for sure, Like
people should know exactly in their contract what they're signing,
Like if nudity gets caught on camera, is it going
to be used, where is it going to be used?
Things like that. I mean, I'm not sure. I'm not
an expert. I don't know what all the regulation should
be or what the best things are, but I think
it's definitely worth looking into because people, like you said,
(44:13):
they get on camera and sign their life away and
the footage is just used for whatever. And luckily, I
think the audience is getting a little more media literate
now where they know not everything they see on TV
is true, but not all the time. A lot of
people tell me, have you seen this Love Is Blind show?
And can you believe they did that? And I'm like,
I can't watch that stuff because I know nothing is real.
(44:33):
Like they will twist your words and if you don't
say what they want you to say in the confessional interview,
they'll frank invite it or they'll make it like you
said it. Or we even had instances on Girls next
Door where editors were called in to come in and
like do an impression of one of the characters, or
do an impression of one of the guest stars or
something if they didn't get what they wanted said, so
(44:54):
you're really just a puppet.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Yeah, it's unbelievable and most people really don't get it. Wow. Well,
I really appreciate you coming on here. It's so nice
to meet you, and I appreciate the conversation.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Of course me too. It's fun.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
So Holly Madison is beautiful, she is successful, she is smart.
She certainly has been underestimated. And I thought that was
really interesting. I can't even tell you reading about her
was just wild. Like, you know, it's the girl who
was on the Playboy Mansion show. Okay, Like we don't
think about what that actually entailed and what it was
like to be in a relationship with Hugh Hefner. And yes,
(45:33):
you know, I was gonna say there are no victims,
but like young dough Eide girls taking opportunities. I lived
in LA you know I would have taken the opportunity too.
I'm just telling you that I get it. I'm not
going to judge whatsoever, and I'm sure a lot of
people do. But what has she turned this into podcasts
and crime shows and books and beautiful children and marriages
(45:56):
and you know, she's a class act, so I thought
that was really interesting.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Loved her.
Speaker 1 (46:00):
I thought she was great, I thought it was interesting
and wow, really I was excited. But that's why I
love the show.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
I get to.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
Really dig into who someone is that I would never
have gotten to speak to. So I'm grateful for you
guys for making that happen, like, really making that possible,
because without listening and being interested, we wouldn't be talking
to that woman who definitely sounds really really interesting. Loved
Halley Madison
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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