October 11, 2024 • 26 mins
We're joined by dating coach Evan Marc Katz for more advice like fixing your broken "picker" and dating like a CEO. CEOS don’t let the interns applying for the job dictate the terms.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
We have Evan Mark Katz, a dating coach, dating advisor,
dating expert, to help you find the love of your life.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Evan, welcome, beth.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Any, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Of course, so you are a matchmaker. What percentage of
matchmakers are men?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I am not a matchmaker. I'm a dating coach for women.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Oh, you are a dating coach.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
That is a major distinction. Matchmakers make introductions. Dating coaches
tell women how to make better decisions, which in my opinion,
is more powerful.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And you don't make introductions.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I do not make introductions.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Because some matchmakers also coach do get dating coaching. Also,
That's why I thought like it's like, maybe you do
more dating coach, but you also matchmakes so interesting.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I'm the og dating coach made up this job twenty
years ago, and now everybody's a dating coach.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So you don't look like old enough that you could
have made this up twenty years ago.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
We're close to peers on fifty two.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Grew up in Long Island, member of the tribe where
Exotic Delmore Amy Fisher.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Oh amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay, wait a second, Okay, So you are a dating
coach and you've been doing this for twenty years.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Are you married?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I have been married for sixteen. The first five years
of this I was learning from coaching other people what
my own hypocrisies were.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So I had a book called, I Suck at Dating,
so you don't have to So that was you.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I've got a couple of books that are like that.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Okay, you might still suck at dating. You probably haven't
done it that much you've been coaching it.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
I have a unique ability to be around women and
help them see in their blind spots. And if I
were let loose on society, I think I'd lapsed back
into the old thing that being good at dating. I'm
much happier married, though I can't advocate for a happy
marriage enough.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So have you been listening to the advice that the
matchmakers have been giving on to just be dating?
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Yeah? I mean I absolutely have great respect for matchmakers.
I think they have a really hard job. I think
we have similar clients. That people come to me are
the ones who say, Okay, I'm the common denominator. I mean,
it's basically helping women get out of their own way.
I think if you ask most women the biggest problem,
they're going to say, where are all the quality men
and why am I attracted to the wrong men. I
(02:23):
help women fix their broken man picker.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Oh, I'm gonna love this from.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
The very beginning right confidence and self awareness to the end.
So it's a much more concierge handholding process. I make
sure women will never get into another bad relationship again.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I call it like getting in the wrong cart. I've
gotten in the wrong car. It looks good, the sign's
going to one location. I know I really want to
go to the other, but the car in the moment
looks good. Then you're in the car, then you're driving.
You were probably making a decision out of fear and
not truth, which I think is a big thing. People
aren't willing to really sit back and hold and wait.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I love your metaphor, and I use something similar.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Tell me I talk about shopping in the wrong aisle
of the grocery store. Most people like steak and ice cream.
But steak and ice cream is going to kill you eventually,
and so then you're like, hey, you got to get
off that steak and ice cream diet. The fixer upper,
broken narcissistic workaholic man who cheats on you, we got
to break you up with the steak and the ice cream. Oh,
so you're telling me I just have to have rice
(03:20):
cakes and kale. You're telling me to settle. No, there's
this lane of chicken and vegetables where the most happy,
healthy people live. And if women could discover the ten
percent of men who are worth their while, there's a
lot of love to be had out there. But most
people vacillate between. This guy bores me. I'm so intoxicated
by this guy, but he's so bad for me.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So I'm going to challenge that because I feel I
also consider myself. I consider myself an almost expert level
data like I have a lot of institutional knowledge, and
so I think saying that means like someone's going to
have to really make a lot of sacrifices because now
they're going to have to eat the grilled chicken and
won't get the delicious fatty steak.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
When I think that, I think sometimes people could have.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
The steak, but because right away the steak seems so
bad for them, they're not willing to be patient enough
and work the situation to see if there's an energy match,
Like meaning I have met people that are the steak
and wanted immediately them to turn into the chicken, but
(04:25):
turn into the healthy chicken when sometimes if you like
show who you really are, you're patient, you present your
best self. To Barbie's point, her opinion is that you
have to be your best self before dating the person
you'd want to date. And then I think that there
are many roads to rome. I have been with many
steaks that have turned into tofu because they hadn't met
(04:49):
the right person. They need the right energy match, they
need to be intellectually challenged. So I think there's a
world in between both where it's like the leaner steak
and the fattier chicken.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
There's no coach matchmaker in the world who would be successful.
If their solution you see all the happy couples on
someone's website. If their solution is take your medicine and
deal with it right. The presumption is that anybody who's
coming for dating a relationship advice is lost and when
they exit, they exit in a happy relationship on their terms.
(05:20):
And so I would agree with your point that timing
has a lot to do with things. I think that
people should really pay attention in that first month of
dating to whether the timing is wrong. Talk about getting
in the wrong car, getting on the wrong bus and
heading to Chicago when you meant to go to Boston.
There's a lot of guys who are just huge red
flags and people ignore them. Recently separated, recently divorced, don't
(05:43):
know what I'm looking for.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
You're too good for me. I'm intimidated by you.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Let's start from the very beginning. Okay, so you only
coach women.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
The first five years of this. I coach men. Men
need help, they don't ask for it. So that's when
anybody is like, why don't you coach men? Men need
so much help. Men really don't ask for support, and
so that's why I help women.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Okay, so you help women. So there's a woman, and
my opinion is that if they're coming to you, it's
what you've just said. They've been their picker is off,
or they feel that they've been in the wrong relationships,
or they went through a breakup. They're afraid, they're older.
How am I going to meet someone? There's a lot
of fear that comes in. I think fear is a
critical thing, right, So would you say that the first
(06:27):
step is like to work on yourself and become a
whole person like you have to become the fully put
together piece of furniture, not the ikea that has screws
missing and is because you could meet the right guy
and mess it up. So you're coming in as a
fully formed individual meeting. Are you doing the therapy? Are
you talking to you to like assess the situation, like
(06:47):
what's the step to get because I do think also
that people are coming and look for something. Sometimes as
a reaction to the last relationship is a big mistake.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
The pendulum.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
You just want you know you now you want the
warm blanket because you had the player cheater.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You don't have to go the whole opposite direction.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Hey, Bethany, I know you don't need validation. I want
to give you some validation today. Okay, you're instinctively really smart.
The thing you're talking about, I call it the over correction. Wow,
if you had a guy with no money, I'm looking
for money. If you had no chemistry, I'm looking for chemistry.
And we go way, way, way to the other end
of the spectrum. My mom did this the guy after
my dad passed away. Really nice, gentle guy, no attraction,
(07:26):
no respect for him. Didn't make her laugh, But boy,
he was nice and that lasted for like two years.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
By the way, you go for the warm blanket if
you've been in a toxic abusive situation, but you may
but you maybe you may not be warm blanket. Then
you're confused, like, wait, but I wanted safety. I wanted security,
but you weren't. Like at the baseline, just saying this
is me and Bethany, what do I want that matches me?
So you call that the overcorrection, I called the pendulum.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
All right, check yes, and again we're speaking the same
exact language.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Amazing As far as what people.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Do right when they feel either their pickers broke or
they're broken due to repeated mistakes, childhood trauma, divorce, attachment styles,
et cetera, I think it's a both and solution. Not
to be wishy washy. A lot of people come to
me after they've done years and years and years of therapy,
and their therapy might have helped them understand why they're
(08:17):
attracted to the wrong people, but it hasn't gotten into
a relationship with the right person. So as a dating coach,
my job is to get you dating and dating smarter
from every step of the way, from how you market
yourself online, how you flirt and how you deal with
text and how you deal with sex. And there's a
whole curriculum that I've created for women and a community
where a whole bunch of people who've been successful at
(08:39):
this venture hold your hand through this process, so you're
not doing it alone when you don't trust your judgment.
So I think there's something wonderful about women in particular.
Guys are like, you know, you know, being stereotypical people
break up. Women are like what did I do wrong?
What could I have done better? How could I have
fixed this? How could I have tried harder? And the
guys like crazy bitch?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And by the way, but that's what I was saying before.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
You could be great, but you're ahead of your skis, yes,
and you scare the shit out of the guy, and
you'll never get the chance to see what it could
have been.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Or you choose a guy who, for all of his qualities,
isn't ready for you now and it's not your job
to wait for him to change.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Sometimes you could be texting with someone and maybe they
have a job where they're really just not on the
phone that much, and you could mess it up because
texts could screw everything up and you really don't get
to know who the person is.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
You're right, and I'm as a fifty two year old man,
I'm pretty old school. I think we need to resolve
things this way. You can't have an important conversation via text,
even though it's the most ubiquitous form of communication. I agree,
so to your original point. A lot of women that
will spend a decade working on themselves and not go
on a date, got it. And I don't think you
need to do that that I think they go in concert.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's an overcorrection too.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Therapy is about your past, and coaching is about your
present and future. Love that, so, yes, deal with your
past and all your belief systems and limiting beliefs that
are holding you back, and simultaneously don't sit on the
sidelines waiting for perfection. It's the John Lennon life is
what happens when you're making other plans.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Okay, you can.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
I talk to women who have not gone on dates
for years and years and years under the idea that
if I continue to work on myself, then I'll be
ready for him. I genuinely believe this. You don't have
to change too. Find love you have to change your
choice in men first and foremost. It doesn't mean that
there aren't rough edges to sand off, because we could
always be better.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
You don't have to change. You have to change your
choice in men. You have to change some of your behavior.
You You were about to talk about attachment styles. People
have different means of communication and attaching, and men and
women sometimes have different and mine would be anxious attachment
or anxiety. But I call that like this is the
control yourself. Like this is where you have to have
(11:02):
guardrails on you. In communication. You could be a fast
text or you could be an over communicator. You have
to have guardrails. So I think let's talk about this
part of it, because I don't think where do I
find men is as difficult as when I meet them online?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Or what?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Now I've got to fish? What am I doing with
this fish? Because it's going to wriggle right off? Now
I've got a fish, So how am I handling that?
So let's do that?
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Right? No, I think that's really important anxious attachment sign
and again you do a really good job of taking
complex things and making them accessible. Anxious attachment style is
when you don't trust that someone is going to be
there for you, because historically they have not been there
for you. They have abandoned you, they've disappointed you. So
you need a ton of reassurance that that person's going
to continue to be there. Nake you feel safe, Yes,
(11:47):
well you don't feel that safety. You do more reaching out.
You come from a place of fear. You come from
a place of scarcity, and that's the thing you're talking
about driving someone away. So for anxious attached women who
are looking for masculine and energy men right as women
often are, you could generally trust a guy will do
what he wants. You don't have to remind him you're alive.
(12:09):
And so when I was dating my wife seventeen years ago,
she never had to call me. She never had to
text me. It's not that she couldn't have and I
wouldn't have responded. But if I wanted to call her,
i'd call her phone that to see her. I'd see her.
You let him drive the train and choose you by
his own volition instead of trying to pull him into
(12:30):
your orbit.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
But you just made a huge assumption that anybody that
has anxious attachment that they're going to act on it.
And if you're a really really good chess player and
you're like a complicated thinker, you are self aware, you
know you're that you haven't labeled it, but you know
you might be that type. You're needy or because of
your emotions, because of your childhood, but that doesn't mean
you're acting on it. You could be I like, you
(12:52):
would never never call a guy, never text the guy.
The guy has to call. But if you're seeing that repeatedly,
there's like a pad. And sometimes you can scare them
away because they think you're like just you're very cold,
you're very you know you're not. They'll think you're not
interested when you're completely interested, but you just have anxiety inside.
(13:13):
So you're trying to completely control the program and they're
then freaking out the retreating.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
That's a great subtle observation. And so what we try
to do in coaching is create an environment where any
guy would want to be there.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
We both use a lot of metaphors. Right.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
I tell women you're the CEO of your love life.
Men are interns applying for a job with you. And
if you're going to be a company, be Google, be
a place where they're giving you free meals and they
drive you back and forth from work, and they have
people missaging you and your share give someone an experience
that they're going to want to come back for more.
And so the the tone and the messaging of these
emails is not cold. There's nothing that resembles game playing.
(13:53):
It's warm, it's enthusiastic. You respond quickly, but you're responding
to his needs instead of reaching out. That's one hundred
persons distinction. But when he reaches out, oh my god,
I'm so glad to see you. Yes, I'm free on
Friday night, that was your day. Yeah, So you can
still be warm and enthusiastic and all those things that
Nan love, but you're allowing him to demonstrate his interest
(14:15):
in you, so you don't have to find yourself in
that same place of feeling needy.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Right, And this is when we're dating. This doesn't have
to be when you're a full fledged relationship and you
feel safe.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
That goes out the window. When you have a relationship,
we throw that out.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yes, I agree, So this is and this is when
you're a little bit brief. But like you said, you're
not cold, you're not distant, you're not playing game You're
not trying to be a bitch. You are warm, but
you're also busy, booked them busy and make a plan,
But it's how do you feel when you're with the person,
and if you create a good experience there. I think
a lot of women on the date get into their
(14:50):
head and start showing their cards about what was happening
when off the date, and I think that's where we
get tripped up. So a woman like and I've I've
had him, I've had him. Man say to me, wait, well,
I wasn't even sure you were excited because your texts
were like a little brief now they weren't cold. They
just were kind of maybe slightly chilly, but like not
but still warm.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And I was like, no, oh really, what was it?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Like? So sweet because you don't want to fall on
that trap where they're trying to find something out and
then you become needy. They've got all the power and
you're doing what you basically would have done on the day.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
On the text, I think you just unnerve something that's
really important part of you being an advanced dater. And
if you forget me omittment for making an observation because
I don't know you. Well, obviously, I think we can
kind of get into our head and overthink this too
much and try to turn it into such a science
and right where there's this almost this gamification. He said this,
(15:44):
and I'm going to say this, and we could dissect it,
and it doesn't mean that either you nor I is mistaken.
But you know and I know that in real life
when people make a connection, everything goes out the window.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I totally true being with the right guy totally. That's
totally true as well. That's totally true as well. It's
just that men don't seem to like overly needy women
until they're in a relationship and then they actually need them,
they want to be needed.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
And then there's another wrinkle to this, which is we'll
talk about masculine and feminine. Masculine men want to be
the ones to pursue you more and more in society, men,
especially younger men, are more passive right, waiting for her
to call, for her to make the first move. You've
seen white lotus like this. This is kind of what
(16:33):
happens is men don't act the way men used to
wow and women are more off balance. Right California, it's
a gatting just a very laid back culture. So he's
kind of waiting for her to text, she's waiting for
him to text. I'm serious, men, So.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Then how are you doing your job when your constructs
are the opposite?
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Because it becomes more complex, I have to find out
a what kind of woman I'm dealing with. Is she
a woman who is in her masculine or femin Is
she comfortable taking the lead. If she is, it's okay,
you can call him. If he's the guy who likes that,
it might work. You don't want to give top down
dating advice that works. I think you know every person
hears to every stereotype. So I find out what kind
(17:12):
of personality she has, and then I also have to
ask her, Hey, on that first date, is this the
kind of guy who's like first date closer? Because with
that guy, you can't nudge him into calling you. But
there's a lot of really nice, sweet guys who are
not good at dating. They don't have that swagger, they
don't have that confidence. They're not going to make the
first move. They'll just kind of hang out with you.
(17:33):
They're guys who are often friend zoned guys. You know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Here's what I think I think that when you get
into the swing of dating, you know, and it can't
be so black and white. Yes, matchmakers also you want
to lean into your feminine and let them be the man,
and I get that, but I do think that if
ultimately you're looking for a partnership, when you have two people,
(18:11):
the best ideas should win. Like, let's pretend, Okay, so
I'm a public person. Let's say I date someone who's
not a public person, and I'm able to like get
the reservation because it's a great place. I'm not going
to be like not presenting that. It's the way that
you present it. Now that's obviously not as relatable. But
I'm saying there are some women that are strong personalities,
and maybe they're more organized, and maybe the guy is
(18:31):
great at other things. Maybe he's really great at the
map or great at play, you know, once you're on
the trip, but the woman's better at planning it. I
think you kind of have to find the rhythm. As
long as it's an equal partnership, both no one feels
emasculated or demoralized, where both people feel like they have
value to the situation and also are receiving value from
(18:52):
the situation.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
I think that's really great. And on top of that,
it is one of the things I thought we were
going to lead with today. Because I'm a dating coach
for smart, strength, strong, successful women, That's one of the
things that comes up all the time. If I'm in
the ninety ninth percentile, how do I deal with men
who don't have that?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Couldn't have that?
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Can I only date in the tiny, tiny percentile of
men who are richer or smarter than I am?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
What does this mean for all the rest of the guys.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
And it sounds like you've had enough life experience to
kind of actually figure that out. It's about how you
make him feel. He has to be secure enough on
his own right. You can't just give a guy that.
There are going to be people who can't handle that,
but they self eliminate.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
They self eliminate, But you have to find out if
there is a genuine value that that person provides in
the relationship, not just that they'll stay home with the
kids if you get married, meaning like that there's a
genuine value add in a relationship, meaning it could be
a partnership, just like a business partnership, which doesn't have
to be some person's operations and logistics and doing things
(19:51):
that you might not never want to do, and you
have the vision in the marketing, Like each person likes
what they're doing, and one may be more sexy. But
I think that women often some women date down sometimes
and then like later it catches up with them because
it seems like a good idea in the beginning.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I agree, And again, let's let's both and that okay, right,
if you're ninety ninth percentile, technically virtually everything is dating down.
Now if a man was in the ninety ninth percentile,
would we ever say he's dating down to be with
a woman.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I'm not even I don't even think the money means
dating down. It could be that a person is extremely
like really going to help you, like, let's say, with
your business, or really is an amazing chef that like
cooks amazing meals and you want your kids to be
helped like. I don't think that that would be dating
down just because of money. I think dating down is
if I think a really rich guy that's richer than you,
(20:44):
that it is a mess who's not willing to work
on himself or work on the relationship, but just expects
it that's dating down.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So I don't think it has to do with money.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
We're speaking the same language. But I think a lot
of people, I mean, certainly our generation, our parents' generation.
My mom got married when she was twenty one. She
went from her father's home and to my dad's home.
She was a stay at home mom, and then worked
part time when my dad had some tough times. I mean,
it's a very very traditional middle class thing. Now women
(21:14):
are making as much as men in over forty percent
of marriages where there are making more than men. Whomen
are getting more degrees, more advanced degrees, and there's lots
being written about a lot of think pieces about what's the.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Role of men.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
If I don't need a man, what are they even
there for? You're right, they have to bring some value.
And to me, when I look at how what my
wife brought to me, it wasn't an advanced degree and
it wasn't money. She's the first person I ever met
who loved me unconditionally, who accepted me completely for who
I was, without trying to change me. That was her
(21:50):
unique value proposition. After three hundred online dates, and I
think if more people paid attention to that feeling, we
might have happier relationships because I don't think there's anything
much more important now.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And you know, I always say, never settlest on what
you deserve and like someone's only going to give you
what you're willing to accept.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
And I really believe that stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Here's something that I want that has happened to me
a couple of times and it's really served me, and
you probably have a name for it and you've experienced it.
So let's say you're in something, you're dating someone and
you like each other, but it's not making you feel
the way you need to feel, like you're kind of
settling in some way, it's just not at the level
where you need it to be. This is what I
(22:30):
have done a couple of times and it has worked.
But you have to be willing to walk if it
doesn't work. And it's not a game. It's literally the
opposite of insecure or of a game. It's just being
completely secure. Where years ago, there was this guy and
he was a player, and you know, and I I
he was a player, And it happened the next time
(22:51):
with the same type of person, a real player had
never really had a girlfriend, and we were dating and
we really connected, and it was amazing when we together,
and the fooling around was amazing, the physical was amazing,
All of it was amazing, and the humor like it was,
it was elevated. But then when we would separate, it
would be almost like you took three steps back. You
took one, two steps forward, three steps back, and then
(23:13):
maybe the next time you're supposed to date, you're kind
of waiting around and the person hasn't called by a
certain time of the day. You just didn't like the
way it made you feel. You kind of felt like
the floor could fall out at any time. You just
didn't feel like it was evolving. And this guy called
like at the late afternoons, like we're still on for tonight,
which is fine, but like it wasn't like the comfort
level of where we were intimately. It wasn't making me
(23:33):
feel good. And I said, and you have to find
the way to say it so it doesn't give desperate
and needy, and it gives confidence. It's like a woman
cutting her hair short but rocking it. I said, I
always need to be evolving. If it's in business, if
it's a friendship, I don't Because he said, I don't want.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
A serious relationship.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I said, okay, well, I'm not looking to get engaged,
but I don't want to be investing in someone if
I don't see an evolution in some way, because that's
just not what I'm looking for. And he was like, well,
I don't want something serious, and I was like, no problem,
we can call it. This is what I need like
and I had to be willing to walk because if
he was will and I kept saying, but wait, but
like we like being together and we like this. I'm like, right,
(24:14):
I feel like we take two steps forward and three
steps back, and I just won't ever settle for less
than what I deserve.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
And we went back and forth.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
It had to be fifteen twenty minutes circles and I'm like,
don't worry, then call it. If you can't do it,
then go and he ended up folding. He goes, all right,
let's try this, and it ended up being a very successful,
very long, very deep relationship on the first one of
it's kind for him.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
And what I'm.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Saying is it's like in business, if you feel like
the deal is not going to give you what you
need and you'll later end up presenting it, you gotta
walk and it's so hard, but that confidence could end
up making the relationship really successful because the person respects you. Like, wait,
even if this person knows how into them you are,
like you have exhibited and you might say it more
in this conversation. I am really into you and I
(24:57):
like the way I feel. But I'm into my You know,
I'm not going to settle for less. So where do
you stand on that concept, the pride of like who
you are and what you're willing to take.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I think it's a really good anecdote. I think it
falls squarely under the idea that you're the CEO and
he's at the intern. The problem is when you let
the man set the terms, When you let the intern
set the terms of the agreement and he says, you
know what I want. I want the job where I
could work once a week. I'm just going to come
into the office. I'm going to come in for three hours.
(25:29):
I'll do great work.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
You'll enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
You're saying, that's what the guy was saying to me,
And he's like, I don't want something serious.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
He was doing what you did.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
That's what That's what guys always say, right, Okay, got it?
Speaker 4 (25:37):
How little can I give that you'll say yes, interesting.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
And women give away their power of the No. This
is my company.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
That's brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
If you want a job at this company, I don't
know that you're going to have the quarter office and tenure.
I don't know what's going to happen, but I do
want someone who really wants to be here. And what
does that look like from a boyfriend. You're gonna call
me every day to see each other two three times
a week. We're going to spend weekends together. We're going
to meet each other's friends and family. It's going to
(26:06):
be an integrated relationship. Then we're going to explore a future.
If that's not in your interest, you're not the guy
for this job. No hard feelings. You look cute in
the Brooks Brothers suit, you got an amazing resume, wonderful
interview that pooh, what an interview, But you're not a
good long term candidate for this job. That's brilliant, and
I am looking for long term candidates. If you keep
(26:26):
on taking on interns who dictate the terms, you're never
going to be happy. Yes,
We have Evan Mark Katz, a dating coach, dating advisor,
dating expert, to help you find the love of your life.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Evan, welcome, beth.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Any, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Of course, so you are a matchmaker. What percentage of
matchmakers are men?
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I am not a matchmaker. I'm a dating coach for women.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Oh, you are a dating coach.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
That is a major distinction. Matchmakers make introductions. Dating coaches
tell women how to make better decisions, which in my opinion,
is more powerful.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And you don't make introductions.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I do not make introductions.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Because some matchmakers also coach do get dating coaching. Also,
That's why I thought like it's like, maybe you do
more dating coach, but you also matchmakes so interesting.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
I'm the og dating coach made up this job twenty
years ago, and now everybody's a dating coach.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So you don't look like old enough that you could
have made this up twenty years ago.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
We're close to peers on fifty two.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Grew up in Long Island, member of the tribe where
Exotic Delmore Amy Fisher.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Oh amazing.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Okay, wait a second, Okay, So you are a dating
coach and you've been doing this for twenty years.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Are you married?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I have been married for sixteen. The first five years
of this I was learning from coaching other people what
my own hypocrisies were.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So I had a book called, I Suck at Dating,
so you don't have to So that was you.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I've got a couple of books that are like that.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Okay, you might still suck at dating. You probably haven't
done it that much you've been coaching it.
Speaker 4 (01:38):
I have a unique ability to be around women and
help them see in their blind spots. And if I
were let loose on society, I think I'd lapsed back
into the old thing that being good at dating. I'm
much happier married, though I can't advocate for a happy
marriage enough.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So have you been listening to the advice that the
matchmakers have been giving on to just be dating?
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Yeah? I mean I absolutely have great respect for matchmakers.
I think they have a really hard job. I think
we have similar clients. That people come to me are
the ones who say, Okay, I'm the common denominator. I mean,
it's basically helping women get out of their own way.
I think if you ask most women the biggest problem,
they're going to say, where are all the quality men
and why am I attracted to the wrong men. I
(02:23):
help women fix their broken man picker.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Oh, I'm gonna love this from.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
The very beginning right confidence and self awareness to the end.
So it's a much more concierge handholding process. I make
sure women will never get into another bad relationship again.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I call it like getting in the wrong cart. I've
gotten in the wrong car. It looks good, the sign's
going to one location. I know I really want to
go to the other, but the car in the moment
looks good. Then you're in the car, then you're driving.
You were probably making a decision out of fear and
not truth, which I think is a big thing. People
aren't willing to really sit back and hold and wait.
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I love your metaphor, and I use something similar.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Tell me I talk about shopping in the wrong aisle
of the grocery store. Most people like steak and ice cream.
But steak and ice cream is going to kill you eventually,
and so then you're like, hey, you got to get
off that steak and ice cream diet. The fixer upper,
broken narcissistic workaholic man who cheats on you, we got
to break you up with the steak and the ice cream. Oh,
so you're telling me I just have to have rice
(03:20):
cakes and kale. You're telling me to settle. No, there's
this lane of chicken and vegetables where the most happy,
healthy people live. And if women could discover the ten
percent of men who are worth their while, there's a
lot of love to be had out there. But most
people vacillate between. This guy bores me. I'm so intoxicated
by this guy, but he's so bad for me.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So I'm going to challenge that because I feel I
also consider myself. I consider myself an almost expert level
data like I have a lot of institutional knowledge, and
so I think saying that means like someone's going to
have to really make a lot of sacrifices because now
they're going to have to eat the grilled chicken and
won't get the delicious fatty steak.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
When I think that, I think sometimes people could have.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
The steak, but because right away the steak seems so
bad for them, they're not willing to be patient enough
and work the situation to see if there's an energy match,
Like meaning I have met people that are the steak
and wanted immediately them to turn into the chicken, but
(04:25):
turn into the healthy chicken when sometimes if you like
show who you really are, you're patient, you present your
best self. To Barbie's point, her opinion is that you
have to be your best self before dating the person
you'd want to date. And then I think that there
are many roads to rome. I have been with many
steaks that have turned into tofu because they hadn't met
(04:49):
the right person. They need the right energy match, they
need to be intellectually challenged. So I think there's a
world in between both where it's like the leaner steak
and the fattier chicken.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
There's no coach matchmaker in the world who would be successful.
If their solution you see all the happy couples on
someone's website. If their solution is take your medicine and
deal with it right. The presumption is that anybody who's
coming for dating a relationship advice is lost and when
they exit, they exit in a happy relationship on their terms.
(05:20):
And so I would agree with your point that timing
has a lot to do with things. I think that
people should really pay attention in that first month of
dating to whether the timing is wrong. Talk about getting
in the wrong car, getting on the wrong bus and
heading to Chicago when you meant to go to Boston.
There's a lot of guys who are just huge red
flags and people ignore them. Recently separated, recently divorced, don't
(05:43):
know what I'm looking for.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
You're too good for me. I'm intimidated by you.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Let's start from the very beginning. Okay, so you only
coach women.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
The first five years of this. I coach men. Men
need help, they don't ask for it. So that's when
anybody is like, why don't you coach men? Men need
so much help. Men really don't ask for support, and
so that's why I help women.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Okay, so you help women. So there's a woman, and
my opinion is that if they're coming to you, it's
what you've just said. They've been their picker is off,
or they feel that they've been in the wrong relationships,
or they went through a breakup. They're afraid, they're older.
How am I going to meet someone? There's a lot
of fear that comes in. I think fear is a
critical thing, right, So would you say that the first
(06:27):
step is like to work on yourself and become a
whole person like you have to become the fully put
together piece of furniture, not the ikea that has screws
missing and is because you could meet the right guy
and mess it up. So you're coming in as a
fully formed individual meeting. Are you doing the therapy? Are
you talking to you to like assess the situation, like
(06:47):
what's the step to get because I do think also
that people are coming and look for something. Sometimes as
a reaction to the last relationship is a big mistake.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
The pendulum.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
You just want you know you now you want the
warm blanket because you had the player cheater.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You don't have to go the whole opposite direction.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Hey, Bethany, I know you don't need validation. I want
to give you some validation today. Okay, you're instinctively really smart.
The thing you're talking about, I call it the over correction. Wow,
if you had a guy with no money, I'm looking
for money. If you had no chemistry, I'm looking for chemistry.
And we go way, way, way to the other end
of the spectrum. My mom did this the guy after
my dad passed away. Really nice, gentle guy, no attraction,
(07:26):
no respect for him. Didn't make her laugh, But boy,
he was nice and that lasted for like two years.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
By the way, you go for the warm blanket if
you've been in a toxic abusive situation, but you may
but you maybe you may not be warm blanket. Then
you're confused, like, wait, but I wanted safety. I wanted security,
but you weren't. Like at the baseline, just saying this
is me and Bethany, what do I want that matches me?
So you call that the overcorrection, I called the pendulum.
Speaker 4 (07:49):
All right, check yes, and again we're speaking the same
exact language.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Amazing As far as what people.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Do right when they feel either their pickers broke or
they're broken due to repeated mistakes, childhood trauma, divorce, attachment styles,
et cetera, I think it's a both and solution. Not
to be wishy washy. A lot of people come to
me after they've done years and years and years of therapy,
and their therapy might have helped them understand why they're
(08:17):
attracted to the wrong people, but it hasn't gotten into
a relationship with the right person. So as a dating coach,
my job is to get you dating and dating smarter
from every step of the way, from how you market
yourself online, how you flirt and how you deal with
text and how you deal with sex. And there's a
whole curriculum that I've created for women and a community
where a whole bunch of people who've been successful at
(08:39):
this venture hold your hand through this process, so you're
not doing it alone when you don't trust your judgment.
So I think there's something wonderful about women in particular.
Guys are like, you know, you know, being stereotypical people
break up. Women are like what did I do wrong?
What could I have done better? How could I have
fixed this? How could I have tried harder? And the
guys like crazy bitch?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
And by the way, but that's what I was saying before.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
You could be great, but you're ahead of your skis, yes,
and you scare the shit out of the guy, and
you'll never get the chance to see what it could
have been.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Or you choose a guy who, for all of his qualities,
isn't ready for you now and it's not your job
to wait for him to change.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Sometimes you could be texting with someone and maybe they
have a job where they're really just not on the
phone that much, and you could mess it up because
texts could screw everything up and you really don't get
to know who the person is.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
You're right, and I'm as a fifty two year old man,
I'm pretty old school. I think we need to resolve
things this way. You can't have an important conversation via text,
even though it's the most ubiquitous form of communication. I agree,
so to your original point. A lot of women that
will spend a decade working on themselves and not go
on a date, got it. And I don't think you
need to do that that I think they go in concert.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
That's an overcorrection too.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Therapy is about your past, and coaching is about your
present and future. Love that, so, yes, deal with your
past and all your belief systems and limiting beliefs that
are holding you back, and simultaneously don't sit on the
sidelines waiting for perfection. It's the John Lennon life is
what happens when you're making other plans.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Okay, you can.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
I talk to women who have not gone on dates
for years and years and years under the idea that
if I continue to work on myself, then I'll be
ready for him. I genuinely believe this. You don't have
to change too. Find love you have to change your
choice in men first and foremost. It doesn't mean that
there aren't rough edges to sand off, because we could
always be better.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
You don't have to change. You have to change your
choice in men. You have to change some of your behavior.
You You were about to talk about attachment styles. People
have different means of communication and attaching, and men and
women sometimes have different and mine would be anxious attachment
or anxiety. But I call that like this is the
control yourself. Like this is where you have to have
(11:02):
guardrails on you. In communication. You could be a fast
text or you could be an over communicator. You have
to have guardrails. So I think let's talk about this
part of it, because I don't think where do I
find men is as difficult as when I meet them online?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Or what?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Now I've got to fish? What am I doing with
this fish? Because it's going to wriggle right off? Now
I've got a fish, So how am I handling that?
So let's do that?
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Right? No, I think that's really important anxious attachment sign
and again you do a really good job of taking
complex things and making them accessible. Anxious attachment style is
when you don't trust that someone is going to be
there for you, because historically they have not been there
for you. They have abandoned you, they've disappointed you. So
you need a ton of reassurance that that person's going
to continue to be there. Nake you feel safe, Yes,
(11:47):
well you don't feel that safety. You do more reaching out.
You come from a place of fear. You come from
a place of scarcity, and that's the thing you're talking
about driving someone away. So for anxious attached women who
are looking for masculine and energy men right as women
often are, you could generally trust a guy will do
what he wants. You don't have to remind him you're alive.
(12:09):
And so when I was dating my wife seventeen years ago,
she never had to call me. She never had to
text me. It's not that she couldn't have and I
wouldn't have responded. But if I wanted to call her,
i'd call her phone that to see her. I'd see her.
You let him drive the train and choose you by
his own volition instead of trying to pull him into
(12:30):
your orbit.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
But you just made a huge assumption that anybody that
has anxious attachment that they're going to act on it.
And if you're a really really good chess player and
you're like a complicated thinker, you are self aware, you
know you're that you haven't labeled it, but you know
you might be that type. You're needy or because of
your emotions, because of your childhood, but that doesn't mean
you're acting on it. You could be I like, you
(12:52):
would never never call a guy, never text the guy.
The guy has to call. But if you're seeing that repeatedly,
there's like a pad. And sometimes you can scare them
away because they think you're like just you're very cold,
you're very you know you're not. They'll think you're not
interested when you're completely interested, but you just have anxiety inside.
(13:13):
So you're trying to completely control the program and they're
then freaking out the retreating.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
That's a great subtle observation. And so what we try
to do in coaching is create an environment where any
guy would want to be there.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
We both use a lot of metaphors. Right.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
I tell women you're the CEO of your love life.
Men are interns applying for a job with you. And
if you're going to be a company, be Google, be
a place where they're giving you free meals and they
drive you back and forth from work, and they have
people missaging you and your share give someone an experience
that they're going to want to come back for more.
And so the the tone and the messaging of these
emails is not cold. There's nothing that resembles game playing.
(13:53):
It's warm, it's enthusiastic. You respond quickly, but you're responding
to his needs instead of reaching out. That's one hundred
persons distinction. But when he reaches out, oh my god,
I'm so glad to see you. Yes, I'm free on
Friday night, that was your day. Yeah, So you can
still be warm and enthusiastic and all those things that
Nan love, but you're allowing him to demonstrate his interest
(14:15):
in you, so you don't have to find yourself in
that same place of feeling needy.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Right, And this is when we're dating. This doesn't have
to be when you're a full fledged relationship and you
feel safe.
Speaker 4 (14:24):
That goes out the window. When you have a relationship,
we throw that out.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Yes, I agree, So this is and this is when
you're a little bit brief. But like you said, you're
not cold, you're not distant, you're not playing game You're
not trying to be a bitch. You are warm, but
you're also busy, booked them busy and make a plan,
But it's how do you feel when you're with the person,
and if you create a good experience there. I think
a lot of women on the date get into their
(14:50):
head and start showing their cards about what was happening
when off the date, and I think that's where we
get tripped up. So a woman like and I've I've
had him, I've had him. Man say to me, wait, well,
I wasn't even sure you were excited because your texts
were like a little brief now they weren't cold. They
just were kind of maybe slightly chilly, but like not
but still warm.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
And I was like, no, oh really, what was it?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Like? So sweet because you don't want to fall on
that trap where they're trying to find something out and
then you become needy. They've got all the power and
you're doing what you basically would have done on the day.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
On the text, I think you just unnerve something that's
really important part of you being an advanced dater. And
if you forget me omittment for making an observation because
I don't know you. Well, obviously, I think we can
kind of get into our head and overthink this too
much and try to turn it into such a science
and right where there's this almost this gamification. He said this,
(15:44):
and I'm going to say this, and we could dissect it,
and it doesn't mean that either you nor I is mistaken.
But you know and I know that in real life
when people make a connection, everything goes out the window.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
I totally true being with the right guy totally. That's
totally true as well. That's totally true as well. It's
just that men don't seem to like overly needy women
until they're in a relationship and then they actually need them,
they want to be needed.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
And then there's another wrinkle to this, which is we'll
talk about masculine and feminine. Masculine men want to be
the ones to pursue you more and more in society, men,
especially younger men, are more passive right, waiting for her
to call, for her to make the first move. You've
seen white lotus like this. This is kind of what
(16:33):
happens is men don't act the way men used to
wow and women are more off balance. Right California, it's
a gatting just a very laid back culture. So he's
kind of waiting for her to text, she's waiting for
him to text. I'm serious, men, So.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Then how are you doing your job when your constructs
are the opposite?
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Because it becomes more complex, I have to find out
a what kind of woman I'm dealing with. Is she
a woman who is in her masculine or femin Is
she comfortable taking the lead. If she is, it's okay,
you can call him. If he's the guy who likes that,
it might work. You don't want to give top down
dating advice that works. I think you know every person
hears to every stereotype. So I find out what kind
(17:12):
of personality she has, and then I also have to
ask her, Hey, on that first date, is this the
kind of guy who's like first date closer? Because with
that guy, you can't nudge him into calling you. But
there's a lot of really nice, sweet guys who are
not good at dating. They don't have that swagger, they
don't have that confidence. They're not going to make the
first move. They'll just kind of hang out with you.
(17:33):
They're guys who are often friend zoned guys. You know
what I mean.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Here's what I think I think that when you get
into the swing of dating, you know, and it can't
be so black and white. Yes, matchmakers also you want
to lean into your feminine and let them be the man,
and I get that, but I do think that if
ultimately you're looking for a partnership, when you have two people,
(18:11):
the best ideas should win. Like, let's pretend, Okay, so
I'm a public person. Let's say I date someone who's
not a public person, and I'm able to like get
the reservation because it's a great place. I'm not going
to be like not presenting that. It's the way that
you present it. Now that's obviously not as relatable. But
I'm saying there are some women that are strong personalities,
and maybe they're more organized, and maybe the guy is
(18:31):
great at other things. Maybe he's really great at the
map or great at play, you know, once you're on
the trip, but the woman's better at planning it. I
think you kind of have to find the rhythm. As
long as it's an equal partnership, both no one feels
emasculated or demoralized, where both people feel like they have
value to the situation and also are receiving value from
(18:52):
the situation.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
I think that's really great. And on top of that,
it is one of the things I thought we were
going to lead with today. Because I'm a dating coach
for smart, strength, strong, successful women, That's one of the
things that comes up all the time. If I'm in
the ninety ninth percentile, how do I deal with men
who don't have that?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Couldn't have that?
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Can I only date in the tiny, tiny percentile of
men who are richer or smarter than I am?
Speaker 3 (19:16):
What does this mean for all the rest of the guys.
Speaker 4 (19:17):
And it sounds like you've had enough life experience to
kind of actually figure that out. It's about how you
make him feel. He has to be secure enough on
his own right. You can't just give a guy that.
There are going to be people who can't handle that,
but they self eliminate.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
They self eliminate, But you have to find out if
there is a genuine value that that person provides in
the relationship, not just that they'll stay home with the
kids if you get married, meaning like that there's a
genuine value add in a relationship, meaning it could be
a partnership, just like a business partnership, which doesn't have
to be some person's operations and logistics and doing things
(19:51):
that you might not never want to do, and you
have the vision in the marketing, Like each person likes
what they're doing, and one may be more sexy. But
I think that women often some women date down sometimes
and then like later it catches up with them because
it seems like a good idea in the beginning.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
I agree, And again, let's let's both and that okay, right,
if you're ninety ninth percentile, technically virtually everything is dating down.
Now if a man was in the ninety ninth percentile,
would we ever say he's dating down to be with
a woman.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
I'm not even I don't even think the money means
dating down. It could be that a person is extremely
like really going to help you, like, let's say, with
your business, or really is an amazing chef that like
cooks amazing meals and you want your kids to be
helped like. I don't think that that would be dating
down just because of money. I think dating down is
if I think a really rich guy that's richer than you,
(20:44):
that it is a mess who's not willing to work
on himself or work on the relationship, but just expects
it that's dating down.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
So I don't think it has to do with money.
Speaker 4 (20:53):
We're speaking the same language. But I think a lot
of people, I mean, certainly our generation, our parents' generation.
My mom got married when she was twenty one. She
went from her father's home and to my dad's home.
She was a stay at home mom, and then worked
part time when my dad had some tough times. I mean,
it's a very very traditional middle class thing. Now women
(21:14):
are making as much as men in over forty percent
of marriages where there are making more than men. Whomen
are getting more degrees, more advanced degrees, and there's lots
being written about a lot of think pieces about what's the.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Role of men.
Speaker 4 (21:27):
If I don't need a man, what are they even
there for? You're right, they have to bring some value.
And to me, when I look at how what my
wife brought to me, it wasn't an advanced degree and
it wasn't money. She's the first person I ever met
who loved me unconditionally, who accepted me completely for who
I was, without trying to change me. That was her
(21:50):
unique value proposition. After three hundred online dates, and I
think if more people paid attention to that feeling, we
might have happier relationships because I don't think there's anything
much more important now.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And you know, I always say, never settlest on what
you deserve and like someone's only going to give you
what you're willing to accept.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
And I really believe that stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Here's something that I want that has happened to me
a couple of times and it's really served me, and
you probably have a name for it and you've experienced it.
So let's say you're in something, you're dating someone and
you like each other, but it's not making you feel
the way you need to feel, like you're kind of
settling in some way, it's just not at the level
where you need it to be. This is what I
(22:30):
have done a couple of times and it has worked.
But you have to be willing to walk if it
doesn't work. And it's not a game. It's literally the
opposite of insecure or of a game. It's just being
completely secure. Where years ago, there was this guy and
he was a player, and you know, and I I
he was a player, And it happened the next time
(22:51):
with the same type of person, a real player had
never really had a girlfriend, and we were dating and
we really connected, and it was amazing when we together,
and the fooling around was amazing, the physical was amazing,
All of it was amazing, and the humor like it was,
it was elevated. But then when we would separate, it
would be almost like you took three steps back. You
took one, two steps forward, three steps back, and then
(23:13):
maybe the next time you're supposed to date, you're kind
of waiting around and the person hasn't called by a
certain time of the day. You just didn't like the
way it made you feel. You kind of felt like
the floor could fall out at any time. You just
didn't feel like it was evolving. And this guy called
like at the late afternoons, like we're still on for tonight,
which is fine, but like it wasn't like the comfort
level of where we were intimately. It wasn't making me
(23:33):
feel good. And I said, and you have to find
the way to say it so it doesn't give desperate
and needy, and it gives confidence. It's like a woman
cutting her hair short but rocking it. I said, I
always need to be evolving. If it's in business, if
it's a friendship, I don't Because he said, I don't want.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
A serious relationship.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I said, okay, well, I'm not looking to get engaged,
but I don't want to be investing in someone if
I don't see an evolution in some way, because that's
just not what I'm looking for. And he was like, well,
I don't want something serious, and I was like, no problem,
we can call it. This is what I need like
and I had to be willing to walk because if
he was will and I kept saying, but wait, but
like we like being together and we like this. I'm like, right,
(24:14):
I feel like we take two steps forward and three
steps back, and I just won't ever settle for less
than what I deserve.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
And we went back and forth.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
It had to be fifteen twenty minutes circles and I'm like,
don't worry, then call it. If you can't do it,
then go and he ended up folding. He goes, all right,
let's try this, and it ended up being a very successful,
very long, very deep relationship on the first one of
it's kind for him.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
And what I'm.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Saying is it's like in business, if you feel like
the deal is not going to give you what you
need and you'll later end up presenting it, you gotta
walk and it's so hard, but that confidence could end
up making the relationship really successful because the person respects you. Like, wait,
even if this person knows how into them you are,
like you have exhibited and you might say it more
in this conversation. I am really into you and I
(24:57):
like the way I feel. But I'm into my You know,
I'm not going to settle for less. So where do
you stand on that concept, the pride of like who
you are and what you're willing to take.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I think it's a really good anecdote. I think it
falls squarely under the idea that you're the CEO and
he's at the intern. The problem is when you let
the man set the terms, When you let the intern
set the terms of the agreement and he says, you
know what I want. I want the job where I
could work once a week. I'm just going to come
into the office. I'm going to come in for three hours.
(25:29):
I'll do great work.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
You'll enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
You're saying, that's what the guy was saying to me,
And he's like, I don't want something serious.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
He was doing what you did.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
That's what That's what guys always say, right, Okay, got it?
Speaker 4 (25:37):
How little can I give that you'll say yes, interesting.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
And women give away their power of the No. This
is my company.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
That's brilliant, brilliant.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
If you want a job at this company, I don't
know that you're going to have the quarter office and tenure.
I don't know what's going to happen, but I do
want someone who really wants to be here. And what
does that look like from a boyfriend. You're gonna call
me every day to see each other two three times
a week. We're going to spend weekends together. We're going
to meet each other's friends and family. It's going to
(26:06):
be an integrated relationship. Then we're going to explore a future.
If that's not in your interest, you're not the guy
for this job. No hard feelings. You look cute in
the Brooks Brothers suit, you got an amazing resume, wonderful
interview that pooh, what an interview, But you're not a
good long term candidate for this job. That's brilliant, and
I am looking for long term candidates. If you keep
(26:26):
on taking on interns who dictate the terms, you're never
going to be happy. Yes,
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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