April 26, 2022 • 23 mins
As we all watch Johnny and Amber’s debacle in real time, we know with 100% certainty we do not want to end up like that!
Bethenny endured a decade-long divorce (yes, a DECADE) so she is sharing essential wisdom. Listen up, and you will never end up in a predicament like the one we are watching unfold.
Have you seen Bad Vegan?Bethenny’s take will get you fired up.
Plus, has Bethenny met the Tinder Swindler? Do not miss this.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Okay, so now I know why you're all asking me
to talk about Bad Vegan. Can I just tell you
that it's so funny that some of these crazy people
that have these documentaries written about them, these these shows
on Netflix, I've met some of them. The Tender Swindler,
(00:33):
I have met that diamond guy. I met him as
he I met him years ago because I had him
in my phone book and I remember like him saying
he was in the diamond business, which any girl not
from like a hitting on me perspective, just sort of
like a networking perspective. I remember it, and I feel
like he had a guy with him and he said
that was his brother or something, but that name, and
it sounded very diamond dish. I think it was like,
(00:55):
what was that, like Nassarian or Sam. I may be
mixing stories. It was what was the I don't know
the guy's name, but anyway, I remember the guy's name.
I saw that I was watching the Netflix thing. I'm like,
I've met that guy, and I remember he told me
he was in the diamond business, which are always like, yeah,
he doesn't want to know someone in the diamond business.
Total scam um. So bad Vegan, so I don't know
(01:20):
if you were listening last time, but I was raw
and vegan for a year. I went to school for
food and healing. This was twenty years ago, and that
whole space of raw and vegan was very cutting edge
then everything that Sarma. If you haven't seen the Netflix
show on her, this is based on this woman who
(01:41):
got into some crazy vortex hole where she was on
the lamb for over a year with this criminal. But anyway,
what she said about it being cutting edge when they
opened Pure Food and Wine was true. So for those
of you who didn't see it or don't know the story,
there's a woman named Sarma. She was married to a
guy named Matthew Kenny, who was a chef, a famous
chef in New York, a well known chef in New York.
(02:03):
They were like this good looking couple. They opened up
a raw restaurant called Pure Food and Wine. Everyone knew
about it because it was the first ever of its
kind restaurant that was upscale to make this food that's
not only vegan and vegetarian, which was cutting edge to
begin with. This is back when milk was being served
at Starbucks and and getting soy milk was innovative, like
(02:24):
there's no almond, macadamia, cashew milk, oat milk, none of that.
So they opened this restaurant. It's not only vegan and vegetarian,
it's raw vegan vegetarian. So she's right in the show
saying that it's cutting edge. I knew her husband because
I did business with him briefly when I had my
company Bethany Bakes, My Wheat, egg and Dairy Free Baked
(02:46):
Goods company, and I was also a natural food chef
and trying to hustle, and I was selling him cookies
to his one cafe, and I remember helping him or
cooking for this event or something. In Dumb Boat, it's
like very foggy in the background, but he's not really
in the show, which is interesting at all. I'm not
even referring to him. But in addition, I know the
(03:08):
guy Jeffrey Chattero, who's the restaurantur who's very prominent in
the show Bad Vegan, because he was partners with Sarma
and Matthew Kenny, and I known him for years. He
started the restaurant China Grill, which was like the hottest
Asian fusion restaurant in New York and he did Asia
(03:28):
to Cuba, and I believe, if I'm not incorrect, he
was the maybe the restaurateur behind Rocco di Spirito and
that TV show The Restaurant. I'm not sure about that,
but I remember that for a reason. So when I'm
watching these shows and I'm like, wait a second. And
I met Sarma at one Lucky Duck because I was
eating raw and vegans, so there was no one else
that had this kind of food. And I remember going
(03:49):
into the place in Chelsea Pierce to get those raw
spiced cashews. They were amazing. I had no idea of
anything that's going on behind the scenes. I didn't even
know that Pure Food and Wine was like a celebrity
hot spot because it was just I remember going there
and having that zucchini lasagna, and it was just a
place that was when you want to eat that kind
of food. In order to cook, in order to prepare
(04:11):
raw food, it would take four hours to dehydrate like
a pizza or something. It's a very labor intensive, thoughtful
cuisine that involves a lot of ingredients, and it's very
expensive and it has to be organic, and it's soaking
nuts and it's pureeing everything, and it's really labor intensive.
So the restaurant was cutting edge because if you wanted
(04:33):
that food, you would pay for it because it was
impossible for you to do on your own. The way
to eat raw on your own would be raw nuts, avocado,
raw gaspaco, but not cooked tomatoes ever, and salads and
it would be redundant and repetitive and anyway. So that's
about the raw food movement. But this woman's parma um.
(04:53):
This show is about her who went to Wharton, very
smart girl, worked at bear Sterns, becomes the wife of
a chef, opens up very extreme raw vegan restaurant and
gradually gives this guy, this guy who she was in
a relationship with an and ultimately marries after her relationship
(05:18):
with her husband. And this guy is like an overweight,
slovenly kind of degenerate, and she was married to Matthew Kenny,
who was like the vision of health and good looking,
and now she's with this other guy and she's obsessed
with her dog. So I understand that I was walking
into it thinking that I was going to think that
she was totally shady and not trust anything she was saying,
(05:39):
and I'm probably halfway through it or maybe more. And
she's now on the lamb in the show, and I've
believed mostly everything that's come out of her mouth, which
is shocking because you know, I'm savvy and I'm smart,
and she went to Wharton and I always say, you
can't play stupid and smart at the same time. So
how is this woman giving this guy gradual money, which
a lot of these swindlers do to get to the
(06:01):
point of one point seven million dollars and he's promising
her there's sort of like self actualized anointment into this
other world. And the thing that I realized in the
show is they do get into this mystical stuff. So
people are into raw and vegan and hot yoga. They're
going to see psychics. They're doing energy work. They're doing
(06:23):
right raiki, they're doing cranios sacral. They're pulling with with
coconut oil in their mouth to get the toxins out.
They're doing juice, fest are doing detox. They're going on hikes.
They're going to a place called Agape in California to
go find God. They're in another way going to the
place uh Kapalu upstate New York to go do you know,
(06:45):
not talk for a week and do cleanses. And they're
they're going to Hippocrates in Florida and doing extreme things.
They're going to add Wigmore Institute, which is in Puerto Rico,
and you're basically drinking wheat grass and this stuff called
the juvlac and it's extreme and it's culty. It's a culty.
So what I think, and I don't know if I'm
(07:08):
a percent right, obviously, but what I and if I
don't even know if I if I'm right in what
I think. I think I think having been in a
relationship with someone who had some serious issues but made
you feel like they were totally possessed by you. And
also depending upon when you meet someone. If you meet
someone and you're vulnerable and you're coming out of something bad,
(07:31):
or you're a homebody, or you're lonely, or you're going
through something, it's exhausting to think about meeting someone new.
So sometimes the one who's giving you attention, even if
it's the wrong person, you think you might never meet
somebody again. This is it. This is the last person
you know, you've been an abusive relationship or something, it's
mentally abusive or emotionally abusive, and you think that, like,
no one will ever love you like this, even if
(07:52):
it's a crazy person, and you're getting older, and you
might think this is all you can get. I think
that was one element. I think she was in a
relation of an addict. And addicts are natural born liars.
They lie for a living. So imagine I have a
friend who knows someone who just got a bad diagnosis,
and they called us to ask for a favor, to
(08:15):
pull in a favor, to call some very powerful person
to help them get ahead of a line for medical attention. Okay,
we didn't question whether she was telling the truth, but
she could have been making that up. You could make
that up because it's not the first day that you're
gonna ask for the money. She could have made that up.
But then the next time say something else. And the
next time, oh, no, I just got to get medicine
and I can't afford it. And then you're like, oh,
(08:36):
I'll give it. Like I don't think these con people,
they don't operate in one day. They play the slow game,
and then they work you. This guy was working her
mother too, you know, making her seem crazy. I will.
I'm the only one will ever love her. I love
I love you. I'm just trying to take care of her,
but I need money for this and I'm worried. She
also had this girl, Sarma, who yes, went to Warden,
(08:57):
and it's hard for me to believe believing she was
going to get the like mystical status in the universe.
I believe so people can fall into cults. We've seen it.
We've seen smart people, the Hurst Girl, we saw the
person from the Sea, Grum's family in that movie The
Vow gets sucked into a cult. It happened to Um,
(09:17):
Katherine Oxenberg's daughter, Like you know, people can get sucked
into a call. I think this girl's Sarma was in
a one person call. I think this guy brainwashed her
and sucked her into a one person called. She kept
going in deeper and deeper and darker and dark and
being more miserable and lost, but didn't know it because
she only knew what she knew. Do you ever feel
(09:37):
exhausted so tired you can't see straight, and you're in
the worst mood and you want to cry in the
world's coming to an end or pms and you just
want to scream and freak out over everything and it
seems real. Then you get your peer and you're like, oh,
this happens every month, like you're a crazy person. So
I think that she kept getting sucked in deeper and deeper.
That being said, she was lying to other people, asking
(09:59):
other people for money, and she left people that are
employees without getting paid, which is disgusting. I just don't
see another way. I don't think that she herself was
taking any of this money. I think she kept pouring
it down his illegal gambling throat. And I think that
that writer that was in the show, he would have
(10:22):
reporters are the most cynical people ever. They'll always say
the most negative thing. They'll always go to the you know, worst,
most cynical place. That's their job. He doesn't seem to
think that either. He seems to think that like something
went on. I think she was in a one person
called I really do. And how do you pull someone
out of a cult when no one's even with you.
She's alone on the road with the master of the cult.
(10:44):
He only has one person to to indoctrinate. He's giving
her the kool Aid deal, you know, the Jim Jones
cool aid to one person. When you're in a big
colug you're telling it to all these people. You've got
to manage. This is one person. That's why I really
think so far, I can't wait to watch the rest.
I think it's terrible we said. But I'm the person
who would say, oh my god, she knew and she
was a swindler. I don't think so. I don't know why,
(11:06):
even though I know it's a bunch of crazies in
this raw vegan world. I know it intellectually, even though
I know her ex husband got you know, didn't really
necessarily pay people. Always starts businesses, then starts new ones
with somebody else. He's got businesses all over the world.
But I don't think he was a swindler either at all.
I think he just was not a great business person.
He's a creative, that homeless guy on the show that like,
(11:28):
you know, I thought she was such a kind person.
I don't know. I knew a girl that used to
give her dog callnics and get acupuncture for her dog.
In that alternative world, people can be freakish. I just
don't know why. I'm just not black and white on
this thing. I'm just not I just I can't. I'm
fascinated by it and it's an interesting show. So that's
where I stand nowhere where any of you would think,
(11:49):
because you know I could be judgmental. I just I'm up.
I don't understand. I'm just it's crazy staying in Vegas
for a year. She couldn't pull herself out. Why didn'
her family pull her? Because it's a hell. It's the
only explanation if you're not gonna call your calling your
parents and saying I love you and everything's fine, and
sort of like she was sucked into the vortex. What
do you I don't know. I want to hear what
(12:09):
you guys think. A lot of you have said to me,
please talk about this, so let's keep going if I
have to. It's like a book club. If I have
to redo my answer after watching the next few episodes,
I will, But I'm just like mesmerized. Anyway, I wanted
to talk to you about that without getting it's too
(12:35):
much detail about myself, but it's important for all of you.
So I remember when do Me Moore was going through
a divorce with Ashton, and I think, um, she just
she just stayed quiet and stuff was coming out about
her for a while, and I knew someone who was
working with her, and it was frustrating for her to
just stay quiet because you're just watching yourself get trashed
(12:57):
and you haven't had your day and your voice yet.
I have experienced that. I experienced that for year after year.
I was the person who's obviously the villain, the successful,
more you know, aggressive talker, and and there you know,
the rich mogul and uh, the housewife. And there was
(13:21):
so much going on behind the scenes that I had
a gag order and I couldn't talk about because of
my child. And I was very conflicted because I didn't
want to talk about a lot of this stuff. First
of all, I was free. I was going to lose
custody or get sued or just you want to follow
(13:41):
the rules. It's the same reason that all the me
two people followed the rules. The assigned a document. This
is the way the world went, and you just followed
the rules. Phil When I first did a custody agreement,
you had you just you got so tired. Any of
you going through the divorce, if you're going through a
custody agreement, you get so tired and you just will
say and yes, yes, yes, whatever you want, just sign it.
I can't do this anymore, right, So some of the
(14:03):
things you'll sign would be like we'll not talk about this,
will not put your daughter on Twitter like I didn't.
That wasn't a specific thing. But I'm just saying, like fine, whatever. School,
Like you just you can't fight all the battles, You
can't kill all the roaches in Manhattan, and you just
want to you believe what people tell you that eventually
it won't matter because the kids get older and this
(14:25):
is just a document, but you're not going to bide
by most of it. I ended up being in a
situation where the person used it as a weapon and
used it against me, like every to the letter of everything,
and you just felt a little trapped. And once things
were happening that we're not acceptable and that were abusive
(14:46):
and that we're not okay, I just ate it. I
pushed it down and I was being silently tortured. And
the truth is I was watching the headlines and hiding
my head because knowing like people are thinking this, and
people are thinking that, and who knows who's play racing it,
and you know, and you're just hiding and it affects
your career. It affected my career. I didn't I couldn't
(15:09):
care that much because I was just trying to protect
my child and not lose my mind. It was really
really hard. But you there's no question about the fact
that Johnny Depp being associated with abuse and these kind
of allegations without having his day in court, that it's
done severe damage to his career. There's no question about it. Okay,
(15:30):
there is absolutely smoke and fire with both parties. That's
an abusive, tumultuous relationship, I'm sure because you wouldn't tolerate
some of that for more than a minute, so even
just to be there. But I've been in situations where
there's some shady stuff going on and you just convince
yourself something else is going on, and you know you
(15:52):
can't blame, you can't victim blame or anything like. The
people can be in bad situations, men and women alike,
by the way, but I have experienced stifling and then
getting into court and then headlines being what's literally being
said from their mouths, and it's really hard. My divorce
was going on for so many years that I never
(16:13):
got to say anything, and I still haven't said really
much believe it or not considering what happened, because you
battle between your kids and what they're going to hear
and what women need to hear because it's important, just
like with me too. So that's the struggle, Like do
I come out and talk so I can help so
many women in the world, But then my daughter hears
(16:35):
things that would really be hurtful, be be you know,
disillusioning for her. So I've chosen really to be very
vague and to not say what's happened. It's a choice,
and it's been a it's been a struggle. So this
reminds me of that, only because this has been going
on for so many years, these allegations, and now they're
finally in court and things are coming out and people
(16:56):
get to make their own decisions, and it may not
it may be grayer than ever. It's not black and
white because people I'm talking to go back and forth
and aren't sure what they think, whose side there on,
who they believe. It seems very very gray. But what
is not gray is that there have been wages and
careers potentially destroyed and possibly forever. Because it's hard to
(17:19):
go back from what people think of you. I remember
when I have my talk show, I interviewed Justin Bieber
and some girls said he got her pregnant years ago,
and everybody just thought it was true and it wasn't true.
But then the ride that people go on and thinking
it's true is relentless. It's voracious. The appetite for this,
it's relentless. But the ride to like, oh that was
(17:42):
that's not true is nothing. It's just like, oh, it's
not true. Okay, But many people didn't hear that little part,
that little blip. Many people are still remember the first part.
So so many people remember my nasty divorce. I don't
know that everyone remembers that little blip of what happened.
And you know, when I got some vindication. But the
ride to reputational destruction, you know, it is rough and
(18:06):
then oh just sorry, We're sorry. It's attraction. Someone one
said something horrible about me about the Forbes magazine article
I was in and what sold my company for It
looked like we I didn't even say I never had
never said a number. It looked like Forbes was lying.
It looked like a big scandal. But the apology was
like two seconds long, and it was like I spent
days of my life having a defense something that never
even happened. So there is gray because there's substance abuse
(18:32):
and just overall tumultuous relationship and dysfunction. And you remember
back Johnny Depp trashed a hotel room when he was
in a relationship with Winona writer. He trashed a hotel room.
Is that relevant now? I don't know. I've never trashed
a hotel room. And Amber heard who I sat next
to in France one once at a restaurant. Uh. We
(18:53):
don't know what motivates people. There are three sides to
every story. And she stayed in that relationship with that person. Oh,
I've been recorded, by the way a lot. I've been followed,
I've been hacked, I've been recorded, and I've had someone
say things to me in a very provocative way where
you don't recognize how the person is speaking to you,
(19:15):
and you're like, what's going on? And you and you think,
oh God, I don't want them to know that. I
know they're recording, but oh, they're recording. But that's why
they're speaking in this way. That's a big thing too.
You're recording someone, so you're showing your side of it.
You've prepared to put the recorder on and say this
is what happens. That's just something to consider. I like
(19:35):
I said, I don't know neither and not none of
you know, but you know more because you've watched the trial.
I'm just saying, there are a lot of these things
to think about. A person who's recording another person is
producing their own short films, so we don't know what
happened five minutes before or five minutes after. You know.
The thing that's tricky is there's often one trusting person
(19:58):
that never of things they could get to this point,
so they can't possibly imagine how bad it is. So
you can't imagine that someone would record you and try
to use it against you. That being said, it's the
first thing the lawyer says, and I hate to tell
you that if you have something going on where there's abuse,
or something's happening, or something's happening in front of your child,
(20:20):
if someone is saying abusive things in front of your child,
it's damaging and it's abuse to your child. A children
listening to emotional abuse is abuse to children. I just
want you to really understand that. And battles between adults
custody battles in particular, and things like this that we're
talking about, where there's like dysfunction and a home there's
a situation where you're being abused mentally, emotionally, or your
(20:45):
child's being used as a pawn, or they're being abused
by way of you know, there have been things that
I've heard. I know, I know you don't want to
go with your mom. I know you don't want to
go with your mom. I know you want to stay
with that. I just recognize this stuff. It may sound crazy,
like big deal, why am I going to record I
know you don't want to go do my thata doesn't
sound like give us repetition and things that happen over
(21:08):
and over and patterns and things that you can track
and things that you can write down and write emails
about and have proof of correspondence about it and dates
that things happen. That's very very helpful. Yeah, if you
need to record something, you'll need to record something, make
sure it's a state. You're doing it in a state
where it's legal to record another person. By the way,
(21:28):
because there are certain states where it's legal. In New York,
you can record another person and it's legal. You and
I could be having a conversation right now. You can
be recording the whole conversation. You can do that with
your boss, et cetera. In other states, it's illegal. In California,
you cannot record another person. In New York it's a
third party. You can't record to other people talking without
them knowing that you recording their conversation. But I'm just saying,
(21:50):
in these matters you need proof and pattern proof and patterns, dates, times, records,
patterns and threads. People often find pockets, find abuse pockets.
I'm gonna try this. This will drive them crazy with me.
It was the same email over and over and over
(22:10):
at the same thing. It could be about are you
with other men? Are you with other men? I guess
you're going out tonight. I guess you're going out hundreds
of emails about individual topics, and then when they don't
work or they don't get a rise, someone goes to
another one. It could be mocking you, religious, it could
be racist, it could be sexually. It could be saying
you're fat. It could be saying you're useless and ugly
and old or relevant. Whatever it is. I know it's
(22:33):
happening to some of you. I know it has happened,
and you have to be organized in the beginning because
later you'll get anxiety and be like, oh ship, I
didn't get at that time, so it sucks. And also
know that someone could be recording you too. It's just
sad to know that, but it's the truth. And when
people start getting advice from other people and from lawyers,
lawyers are there to make money for the most part,
(22:56):
and lawyers will say things that are callous and cold
that you can't image and like they might be recording
you or you might want to record this, and you're like, what,
they would never do this. I love this for you,
Like they don't care, they don't care, They just they're
same recorded. Because it all matters. It all matters. There's
little things you don't think of. It all matters.
Okay, so now I know why you're all asking me
to talk about Bad Vegan. Can I just tell you
that it's so funny that some of these crazy people
that have these documentaries written about them, these these shows
on Netflix, I've met some of them. The Tender Swindler,
(00:33):
I have met that diamond guy. I met him as
he I met him years ago because I had him
in my phone book and I remember like him saying
he was in the diamond business, which any girl not
from like a hitting on me perspective, just sort of
like a networking perspective. I remember it, and I feel
like he had a guy with him and he said
that was his brother or something, but that name, and
it sounded very diamond dish. I think it was like,
(00:55):
what was that, like Nassarian or Sam. I may be
mixing stories. It was what was the I don't know
the guy's name, but anyway, I remember the guy's name.
I saw that I was watching the Netflix thing. I'm like,
I've met that guy, and I remember he told me
he was in the diamond business, which are always like, yeah,
he doesn't want to know someone in the diamond business.
Total scam um. So bad Vegan, so I don't know
(01:20):
if you were listening last time, but I was raw
and vegan for a year. I went to school for
food and healing. This was twenty years ago, and that
whole space of raw and vegan was very cutting edge
then everything that Sarma. If you haven't seen the Netflix
show on her, this is based on this woman who
(01:41):
got into some crazy vortex hole where she was on
the lamb for over a year with this criminal. But anyway,
what she said about it being cutting edge when they
opened Pure Food and Wine was true. So for those
of you who didn't see it or don't know the story,
there's a woman named Sarma. She was married to a
guy named Matthew Kenny, who was a chef, a famous
chef in New York, a well known chef in New York.
(02:03):
They were like this good looking couple. They opened up
a raw restaurant called Pure Food and Wine. Everyone knew
about it because it was the first ever of its
kind restaurant that was upscale to make this food that's
not only vegan and vegetarian, which was cutting edge to
begin with. This is back when milk was being served
at Starbucks and and getting soy milk was innovative, like
(02:24):
there's no almond, macadamia, cashew milk, oat milk, none of that.
So they opened this restaurant. It's not only vegan and vegetarian,
it's raw vegan vegetarian. So she's right in the show
saying that it's cutting edge. I knew her husband because
I did business with him briefly when I had my
company Bethany Bakes, My Wheat, egg and Dairy Free Baked
(02:46):
Goods company, and I was also a natural food chef
and trying to hustle, and I was selling him cookies
to his one cafe, and I remember helping him or
cooking for this event or something. In Dumb Boat, it's
like very foggy in the background, but he's not really
in the show, which is interesting at all. I'm not
even referring to him. But in addition, I know the
(03:08):
guy Jeffrey Chattero, who's the restaurantur who's very prominent in
the show Bad Vegan, because he was partners with Sarma
and Matthew Kenny, and I known him for years. He
started the restaurant China Grill, which was like the hottest
Asian fusion restaurant in New York and he did Asia
(03:28):
to Cuba, and I believe, if I'm not incorrect, he
was the maybe the restaurateur behind Rocco di Spirito and
that TV show The Restaurant. I'm not sure about that,
but I remember that for a reason. So when I'm
watching these shows and I'm like, wait a second. And
I met Sarma at one Lucky Duck because I was
eating raw and vegans, so there was no one else
that had this kind of food. And I remember going
(03:49):
into the place in Chelsea Pierce to get those raw
spiced cashews. They were amazing. I had no idea of
anything that's going on behind the scenes. I didn't even
know that Pure Food and Wine was like a celebrity
hot spot because it was just I remember going there
and having that zucchini lasagna, and it was just a
place that was when you want to eat that kind
of food. In order to cook, in order to prepare
(04:11):
raw food, it would take four hours to dehydrate like
a pizza or something. It's a very labor intensive, thoughtful
cuisine that involves a lot of ingredients, and it's very
expensive and it has to be organic, and it's soaking
nuts and it's pureeing everything, and it's really labor intensive.
So the restaurant was cutting edge because if you wanted
(04:33):
that food, you would pay for it because it was
impossible for you to do on your own. The way
to eat raw on your own would be raw nuts, avocado,
raw gaspaco, but not cooked tomatoes ever, and salads and
it would be redundant and repetitive and anyway. So that's
about the raw food movement. But this woman's parma um.
(04:53):
This show is about her who went to Wharton, very
smart girl, worked at bear Sterns, becomes the wife of
a chef, opens up very extreme raw vegan restaurant and
gradually gives this guy, this guy who she was in
a relationship with an and ultimately marries after her relationship
(05:18):
with her husband. And this guy is like an overweight,
slovenly kind of degenerate, and she was married to Matthew Kenny,
who was like the vision of health and good looking,
and now she's with this other guy and she's obsessed
with her dog. So I understand that I was walking
into it thinking that I was going to think that
she was totally shady and not trust anything she was saying,
(05:39):
and I'm probably halfway through it or maybe more. And
she's now on the lamb in the show, and I've
believed mostly everything that's come out of her mouth, which
is shocking because you know, I'm savvy and I'm smart,
and she went to Wharton and I always say, you
can't play stupid and smart at the same time. So
how is this woman giving this guy gradual money, which
a lot of these swindlers do to get to the
(06:01):
point of one point seven million dollars and he's promising
her there's sort of like self actualized anointment into this
other world. And the thing that I realized in the
show is they do get into this mystical stuff. So
people are into raw and vegan and hot yoga. They're
going to see psychics. They're doing energy work. They're doing
(06:23):
right raiki, they're doing cranios sacral. They're pulling with with
coconut oil in their mouth to get the toxins out.
They're doing juice, fest are doing detox. They're going on hikes.
They're going to a place called Agape in California to
go find God. They're in another way going to the
place uh Kapalu upstate New York to go do you know,
(06:45):
not talk for a week and do cleanses. And they're
they're going to Hippocrates in Florida and doing extreme things.
They're going to add Wigmore Institute, which is in Puerto Rico,
and you're basically drinking wheat grass and this stuff called
the juvlac and it's extreme and it's culty. It's a culty.
So what I think, and I don't know if I'm
(07:08):
a percent right, obviously, but what I and if I
don't even know if I if I'm right in what
I think. I think I think having been in a
relationship with someone who had some serious issues but made
you feel like they were totally possessed by you. And
also depending upon when you meet someone. If you meet
someone and you're vulnerable and you're coming out of something bad,
(07:31):
or you're a homebody, or you're lonely, or you're going
through something, it's exhausting to think about meeting someone new.
So sometimes the one who's giving you attention, even if
it's the wrong person, you think you might never meet
somebody again. This is it. This is the last person
you know, you've been an abusive relationship or something, it's
mentally abusive or emotionally abusive, and you think that, like,
no one will ever love you like this, even if
(07:52):
it's a crazy person, and you're getting older, and you
might think this is all you can get. I think
that was one element. I think she was in a
relation of an addict. And addicts are natural born liars.
They lie for a living. So imagine I have a
friend who knows someone who just got a bad diagnosis,
and they called us to ask for a favor, to
(08:15):
pull in a favor, to call some very powerful person
to help them get ahead of a line for medical attention. Okay,
we didn't question whether she was telling the truth, but
she could have been making that up. You could make
that up because it's not the first day that you're
gonna ask for the money. She could have made that up.
But then the next time say something else. And the
next time, oh, no, I just got to get medicine
and I can't afford it. And then you're like, oh,
(08:36):
I'll give it. Like I don't think these con people,
they don't operate in one day. They play the slow game,
and then they work you. This guy was working her
mother too, you know, making her seem crazy. I will.
I'm the only one will ever love her. I love
I love you. I'm just trying to take care of her,
but I need money for this and I'm worried. She
also had this girl, Sarma, who yes, went to Warden,
(08:57):
and it's hard for me to believe believing she was
going to get the like mystical status in the universe.
I believe so people can fall into cults. We've seen it.
We've seen smart people, the Hurst Girl, we saw the
person from the Sea, Grum's family in that movie The
Vow gets sucked into a cult. It happened to Um,
(09:17):
Katherine Oxenberg's daughter, Like you know, people can get sucked
into a call. I think this girl's Sarma was in
a one person call. I think this guy brainwashed her
and sucked her into a one person called. She kept
going in deeper and deeper and darker and dark and
being more miserable and lost, but didn't know it because
she only knew what she knew. Do you ever feel
(09:37):
exhausted so tired you can't see straight, and you're in
the worst mood and you want to cry in the
world's coming to an end or pms and you just
want to scream and freak out over everything and it
seems real. Then you get your peer and you're like, oh,
this happens every month, like you're a crazy person. So
I think that she kept getting sucked in deeper and deeper.
That being said, she was lying to other people, asking
(09:59):
other people for money, and she left people that are
employees without getting paid, which is disgusting. I just don't
see another way. I don't think that she herself was
taking any of this money. I think she kept pouring
it down his illegal gambling throat. And I think that
that writer that was in the show, he would have
(10:22):
reporters are the most cynical people ever. They'll always say
the most negative thing. They'll always go to the you know, worst,
most cynical place. That's their job. He doesn't seem to
think that either. He seems to think that like something
went on. I think she was in a one person
called I really do. And how do you pull someone
out of a cult when no one's even with you.
She's alone on the road with the master of the cult.
(10:44):
He only has one person to to indoctrinate. He's giving
her the kool Aid deal, you know, the Jim Jones
cool aid to one person. When you're in a big
colug you're telling it to all these people. You've got
to manage. This is one person. That's why I really
think so far, I can't wait to watch the rest.
I think it's terrible we said. But I'm the person
who would say, oh my god, she knew and she
was a swindler. I don't think so. I don't know why,
(11:06):
even though I know it's a bunch of crazies in
this raw vegan world. I know it intellectually, even though
I know her ex husband got you know, didn't really
necessarily pay people. Always starts businesses, then starts new ones
with somebody else. He's got businesses all over the world.
But I don't think he was a swindler either at all.
I think he just was not a great business person.
He's a creative, that homeless guy on the show that like,
(11:28):
you know, I thought she was such a kind person.
I don't know. I knew a girl that used to
give her dog callnics and get acupuncture for her dog.
In that alternative world, people can be freakish. I just
don't know why. I'm just not black and white on
this thing. I'm just not I just I can't. I'm
fascinated by it and it's an interesting show. So that's
where I stand nowhere where any of you would think,
(11:49):
because you know I could be judgmental. I just I'm up.
I don't understand. I'm just it's crazy staying in Vegas
for a year. She couldn't pull herself out. Why didn'
her family pull her? Because it's a hell. It's the
only explanation if you're not gonna call your calling your
parents and saying I love you and everything's fine, and
sort of like she was sucked into the vortex. What
do you I don't know. I want to hear what
(12:09):
you guys think. A lot of you have said to me,
please talk about this, so let's keep going if I
have to. It's like a book club. If I have
to redo my answer after watching the next few episodes,
I will, But I'm just like mesmerized. Anyway, I wanted
to talk to you about that without getting it's too
(12:35):
much detail about myself, but it's important for all of you.
So I remember when do Me Moore was going through
a divorce with Ashton, and I think, um, she just
she just stayed quiet and stuff was coming out about
her for a while, and I knew someone who was
working with her, and it was frustrating for her to
just stay quiet because you're just watching yourself get trashed
(12:57):
and you haven't had your day and your voice yet.
I have experienced that. I experienced that for year after year.
I was the person who's obviously the villain, the successful,
more you know, aggressive talker, and and there you know,
the rich mogul and uh, the housewife. And there was
(13:21):
so much going on behind the scenes that I had
a gag order and I couldn't talk about because of
my child. And I was very conflicted because I didn't
want to talk about a lot of this stuff. First
of all, I was free. I was going to lose
custody or get sued or just you want to follow
(13:41):
the rules. It's the same reason that all the me
two people followed the rules. The assigned a document. This
is the way the world went, and you just followed
the rules. Phil When I first did a custody agreement,
you had you just you got so tired. Any of
you going through the divorce, if you're going through a
custody agreement, you get so tired and you just will
say and yes, yes, yes, whatever you want, just sign it.
I can't do this anymore, right, So some of the
(14:03):
things you'll sign would be like we'll not talk about this,
will not put your daughter on Twitter like I didn't.
That wasn't a specific thing. But I'm just saying, like fine, whatever. School,
Like you just you can't fight all the battles, You
can't kill all the roaches in Manhattan, and you just
want to you believe what people tell you that eventually
it won't matter because the kids get older and this
(14:25):
is just a document, but you're not going to bide
by most of it. I ended up being in a
situation where the person used it as a weapon and
used it against me, like every to the letter of everything,
and you just felt a little trapped. And once things
were happening that we're not acceptable and that were abusive
(14:46):
and that we're not okay, I just ate it. I
pushed it down and I was being silently tortured. And
the truth is I was watching the headlines and hiding
my head because knowing like people are thinking this, and
people are thinking that, and who knows who's play racing it,
and you know, and you're just hiding and it affects
your career. It affected my career. I didn't I couldn't
(15:09):
care that much because I was just trying to protect
my child and not lose my mind. It was really
really hard. But you there's no question about the fact
that Johnny Depp being associated with abuse and these kind
of allegations without having his day in court, that it's
done severe damage to his career. There's no question about it. Okay,
(15:30):
there is absolutely smoke and fire with both parties. That's
an abusive, tumultuous relationship, I'm sure because you wouldn't tolerate
some of that for more than a minute, so even
just to be there. But I've been in situations where
there's some shady stuff going on and you just convince
yourself something else is going on, and you know you
(15:52):
can't blame, you can't victim blame or anything like. The
people can be in bad situations, men and women alike,
by the way, but I have experienced stifling and then
getting into court and then headlines being what's literally being
said from their mouths, and it's really hard. My divorce
was going on for so many years that I never
(16:13):
got to say anything, and I still haven't said really
much believe it or not considering what happened, because you
battle between your kids and what they're going to hear
and what women need to hear because it's important, just
like with me too. So that's the struggle, Like do
I come out and talk so I can help so
many women in the world, But then my daughter hears
(16:35):
things that would really be hurtful, be be you know,
disillusioning for her. So I've chosen really to be very
vague and to not say what's happened. It's a choice,
and it's been a it's been a struggle. So this
reminds me of that, only because this has been going
on for so many years, these allegations, and now they're
finally in court and things are coming out and people
(16:56):
get to make their own decisions, and it may not
it may be grayer than ever. It's not black and
white because people I'm talking to go back and forth
and aren't sure what they think, whose side there on,
who they believe. It seems very very gray. But what
is not gray is that there have been wages and
careers potentially destroyed and possibly forever. Because it's hard to
(17:19):
go back from what people think of you. I remember
when I have my talk show, I interviewed Justin Bieber
and some girls said he got her pregnant years ago,
and everybody just thought it was true and it wasn't true.
But then the ride that people go on and thinking
it's true is relentless. It's voracious. The appetite for this,
it's relentless. But the ride to like, oh that was
(17:42):
that's not true is nothing. It's just like, oh, it's
not true. Okay, But many people didn't hear that little part,
that little blip. Many people are still remember the first part.
So so many people remember my nasty divorce. I don't
know that everyone remembers that little blip of what happened.
And you know, when I got some vindication. But the
ride to reputational destruction, you know, it is rough and
(18:06):
then oh just sorry, We're sorry. It's attraction. Someone one
said something horrible about me about the Forbes magazine article
I was in and what sold my company for It
looked like we I didn't even say I never had
never said a number. It looked like Forbes was lying.
It looked like a big scandal. But the apology was
like two seconds long, and it was like I spent
days of my life having a defense something that never
even happened. So there is gray because there's substance abuse
(18:32):
and just overall tumultuous relationship and dysfunction. And you remember
back Johnny Depp trashed a hotel room when he was
in a relationship with Winona writer. He trashed a hotel room.
Is that relevant now? I don't know. I've never trashed
a hotel room. And Amber heard who I sat next
to in France one once at a restaurant. Uh. We
(18:53):
don't know what motivates people. There are three sides to
every story. And she stayed in that relationship with that person. Oh,
I've been recorded, by the way a lot. I've been followed,
I've been hacked, I've been recorded, and I've had someone
say things to me in a very provocative way where
you don't recognize how the person is speaking to you,
(19:15):
and you're like, what's going on? And you and you think,
oh God, I don't want them to know that. I
know they're recording, but oh, they're recording. But that's why
they're speaking in this way. That's a big thing too.
You're recording someone, so you're showing your side of it.
You've prepared to put the recorder on and say this
is what happens. That's just something to consider. I like
(19:35):
I said, I don't know neither and not none of
you know, but you know more because you've watched the trial.
I'm just saying, there are a lot of these things
to think about. A person who's recording another person is
producing their own short films, so we don't know what
happened five minutes before or five minutes after. You know.
The thing that's tricky is there's often one trusting person
(19:58):
that never of things they could get to this point,
so they can't possibly imagine how bad it is. So
you can't imagine that someone would record you and try
to use it against you. That being said, it's the
first thing the lawyer says, and I hate to tell
you that if you have something going on where there's abuse,
or something's happening, or something's happening in front of your child,
(20:20):
if someone is saying abusive things in front of your child,
it's damaging and it's abuse to your child. A children
listening to emotional abuse is abuse to children. I just
want you to really understand that. And battles between adults
custody battles in particular, and things like this that we're
talking about, where there's like dysfunction and a home there's
a situation where you're being abused mentally, emotionally, or your
(20:45):
child's being used as a pawn, or they're being abused
by way of you know, there have been things that
I've heard. I know, I know you don't want to
go with your mom. I know you don't want to
go with your mom. I know you want to stay
with that. I just recognize this stuff. It may sound crazy,
like big deal, why am I going to record I
know you don't want to go do my thata doesn't
sound like give us repetition and things that happen over
(21:08):
and over and patterns and things that you can track
and things that you can write down and write emails
about and have proof of correspondence about it and dates
that things happen. That's very very helpful. Yeah, if you
need to record something, you'll need to record something, make
sure it's a state. You're doing it in a state
where it's legal to record another person. By the way,
(21:28):
because there are certain states where it's legal. In New York,
you can record another person and it's legal. You and
I could be having a conversation right now. You can
be recording the whole conversation. You can do that with
your boss, et cetera. In other states, it's illegal. In California,
you cannot record another person. In New York it's a
third party. You can't record to other people talking without
them knowing that you recording their conversation. But I'm just saying,
(21:50):
in these matters you need proof and pattern proof and patterns, dates, times, records,
patterns and threads. People often find pockets, find abuse pockets.
I'm gonna try this. This will drive them crazy with me.
It was the same email over and over and over
(22:10):
at the same thing. It could be about are you
with other men? Are you with other men? I guess
you're going out tonight. I guess you're going out hundreds
of emails about individual topics, and then when they don't
work or they don't get a rise, someone goes to
another one. It could be mocking you, religious, it could
be racist, it could be sexually. It could be saying
you're fat. It could be saying you're useless and ugly
and old or relevant. Whatever it is. I know it's
(22:33):
happening to some of you. I know it has happened,
and you have to be organized in the beginning because
later you'll get anxiety and be like, oh ship, I
didn't get at that time, so it sucks. And also
know that someone could be recording you too. It's just
sad to know that, but it's the truth. And when
people start getting advice from other people and from lawyers,
lawyers are there to make money for the most part,
(22:56):
and lawyers will say things that are callous and cold
that you can't image and like they might be recording
you or you might want to record this, and you're like, what,
they would never do this. I love this for you,
Like they don't care, they don't care, They just they're
same recorded. Because it all matters. It all matters. There's
little things you don't think of. It all matters.
Host
Bethenny Frankel
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.