Maksim Chmerkovskiy

On fleeing Ukraine and how people can help. 

Earlier this year, you might have said that Ukrainian-born Maks Chmerkovskiy was best known for his work on Dancing with the Stars, but once Russia invaded Ukraine, Maks became a voice for the people who are still there. Bethenny asks Maks about what it was like to escape, and the two of them reveal a myth about crisis aid. Take their advice, so you don’t make this common mistake.  

Bethenny and Maks also bond over what it’s like to be misrepresented on reality TV. Dancing with the Stars didn’t do Maks justice, but today, Bethenny finds out who he really is.

Plus, Bethenny’s fiancé sent her a video that she needs your help deciphering. Tune in and see if you can figure this out.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
My fiance sent me a clip of John bon Jovie
singing at a concert. It did not sound like him,
like when a woman needs to know when to hang
up her thongb Can bon Jovi not sing anymore? Or
was it just a bad thing because he's not really
that old? So like when does somebody fold it up
and just be like okay if if I don't sound

(00:32):
the same, or is it just another iteration and it's
camping and you're just seeing the person? What is what's
the expiration date on somebody? Like when do you say, Okay,
the table ain't cold, I'm walking out of here. You're
not grabbing every last dollar. But I just want to
know did anyone else hear about that? Because my fiance
sent me a video of bon bon Jovi and he
was singing a song that like we all no, I

(00:53):
can't remember which one it was, And I was like,
who is what song is that? He said, It's not
like shot? Is it Shot to the Heart? One of
the songs that I think we all know. My guest
today is Ukrainian ballroom dancer Max Schmerkovski. Before Russia invaded
Ukraine on February, Max was best known for his work

(01:16):
on Dancing with the Stars, but when he escaped Ukraine,
the world came to know him as an advocate. He
stepped forward to share what is really happening in Ukraine
and what it felt like during the invasion, so that
we could all understand the magnitude of this crisis and
take action. His story is inspiring and a reminder that
there's so much more work left to be done in Ukraine.

(01:39):
Here's our conversation. How are you? How are you? I'm well,
it's so funny to um have reconnected with you. I

(01:59):
don't years ago. I think he did my talk show.
But how do we know each other? To begin with?
Is that how we first met? I don't I really
know you. I don't remember how we met, but I
think you did the show, right, I honestly, I don't remember,
to be honest, and I thought about it. I'm like, yeah,
I know you very well. I speak of you on
the first name basis. I have no idea why and uh,

(02:21):
and I feel like we keep doing stuff together, but
never really you know, we always kind of brush it
off to like when we have time, we'll hang out
and all that, but normally we just kind of like, UM,
I don't know. I speak very highly of you. I
think you are you know, great, uh, you know, entrepreneur.
I look up to you know, success of people and yours.

(02:43):
I remember for some reason that you know, it's one
of those successes that I that I looked at and
I was like, yeah, this is this is very attainable.
This is something that you know, industry can provide that.
You know, I'm in the right place at the right time,
around the right people, and you're people. So I don't
you know, it's just like as far as what you asked, uh,
you know, kind of like, well, we think of each other,

(03:04):
we know each other. That's what I kind of feel like, I,
you know, know about you. Well, I've always liked you.
I respected you and your brother, and uh, I know
many of the people that are on this show, and
it is a lot about people an attainable success. So
I'm glad you brought that up. But I don't really
many of my friends have come on and very successful

(03:27):
people like Mark Cuban or um Nar Cheryl Sandberg, and
I didn't know that much about them until we have
these deeper conversations. So I want to talk to you
about your trajectory because we were friendly a long time
ago and we both moved on in our personal lives
and professional lives. And I don't know exactly what you've
been up to and what your journey is like you

(03:49):
lived in New Jersey and now you live in l
a full time. Yes, I do. Okay. So when you
were dancing on Dancing with the Stars, were you living
where were you living as your primary residence New Jersey?
I was unfortly you are unfortly okay. Um, And do
you consider where do you do you feel like Ukraine's home?

(04:09):
Is that really where your heart is that? Do you
have you? Or? And then in the United States is
it more East Coast or West coast? Like where how
do you feel inside? Yeah? Is I feel it inside?
And I feel like it comes out more so than
anything else. Is just Brooklyn? You know, it's not you know,
it's not a cute thing to say. Um. You know,

(04:31):
Val and I talked about this all the time, like
when you know king stuff like you listen, I'm not
you know, I'm not, admittedly, but I did grow up
in Brooklyn. That's my first sort of moment of entry
into United States. And by that it's a huge point
in my life. UM. And and to answer your question
as far as when my heart is Ukraine and all

(04:53):
that Ukraine is like you know, and I said it somewhat,
Ukraine is like the parent that gave me up for adoption,
you know. And and at fourteen years old, when I'm
leaving you know, my hometown, my birthplace, we up and
we left. We were never coming back. It wasn't like, hey,

(05:14):
let's go move for a minute. Um. No, we were
going away. Uh. And when we landed, it was sort
of like the family kind of like model for us
to just like, Okay, here we are. We're now making
it here. This is not what it is, that's not
where we are. So I took it as such. I
fell in love with the place. Obviously, there's a lot

(05:36):
to fall in love with New York. In New York
City and you know nearby areas. UM had a lot
of culture growing up. We landed in ninety four, so
the second part of the nineties was like the renaissance
in New York City was continuing, you know. And so
I got a whiff of that. UM graduated Brooklyn High School,

(05:58):
edward our model all the way went to Pace university, um,
you know, did the things that New Yorkers do, and
after a year dropped out because I had a business.
I opened my dance studio in New Jersey and they
were just completely interfere with my business and my dance
career and all of that stuff. So I came to

(06:19):
university said to my I remember it was like accounting
one on one and the guy came in and said, listen,
you got a value of time and it was like
the first class of the second year. And I was like, damn, man,
I'm I'm in a wrong place, like I should. I
just I need to be paying more attention to my
career as a dancer and my business as a dancing

(06:39):
shot too interesting. It's funny that you said that you
feel most connected to Brooklyn, because it is there is
a soulful immigrant pride in broke places like Brooklyn, like
the Lower eas Side of Manhattan, and there's a texture.
I've been watching Boardwalk Empire recently, and there's a texture

(06:59):
to places like this that is hard to really explain
to people who didn't I grew up going to Brooklyn
and Queens and it's just they're very multicultural melting pots.
So there's so much passion and soul and striving and
coming from nothing and making something. So you know that
that that definitely makes sense with you. The Constitution and

(07:23):
your pride as a man, as a person, as a
you know, an American man like you definitely have that background.
I can I can feel that texture. I think that's
very interesting and Brooklyn is very much that. Um So,
did you grow up poor, lower middle class? Middle class?
What was your family background? Proud right away to take

(07:45):
that probably lower middle Uh no, and I'm not knocking
the ones that didn't grow up poor, you know. Is
if we're just gonna break it down, just feel like
we all have different opportunities. You know. I had an
opportunity to, you know, to learn the language in a
certain way, you know, to get woven into the um

(08:06):
the life of the United States as a country a
certain way. You know. I got to I got to
travel regardless of my financial status, which is a big
deal because we consider travel to be vacation. Um I
was traveling for my career as a professional dancer, you know,

(08:26):
And so very shortly after lending us literally a week later,
my dad parents decided that, um it is very important
for the fourteen year old me to continue dancing and
for the eight year old vow to step and start
doing dancing as well, because that was the plan anyway,

(08:46):
you know. And so this is what this is where
the fish are anchored. Me down. I'm gonna speak for
me alone. You know. It was eight year difference, sorry,
six year difference with Valve, you know value. You know
I'm too, but you know us a little bit differently,
and you know, we have a lot of similarities, but
some things are bound to be different. You know. I

(09:08):
experienced it. I experienced immigration as a teenager going into
sort of the years, right, um. But you know the
thing is that I immediately moved on, right, so that
the analogy of Ukraine being my birth mother who gave
me up for adoption, US welcomed me, and I moved

(09:30):
on immediately, you know. And so I proudly represented US
from day one as a competitor. And now I'm flying overseas,
now I'm representing a country. This was also the first
time I got to do that, not because I didn't.
I would not have gotten to do that in Ukraine,
by the way, we don't know, um, But if I

(09:51):
were to continue dancing I would have probably you know,
fought for the same, but I felt like it was
a big deal bestowed on me, you know, myself and value.
We wrapped hard immediately, and so and wait, you were
that you were that good, like in all of Ukraine
for your age, you were that good. Like you were
you would be ranked in the top you know tier

(10:13):
like that. You were like you know, the Olympic athletes
of dancing at that time, that we're just very good.
But that's a big deal in the US. I was
not very good in Ukraine, but I was great in
US because in the US it was just the beginning
stages of the teens and the youth as we know
it now, you know, and today obviously we're Dancing with

(10:35):
the Stars as a concept that came on television and
mid two thousand's thousands five, you know, we had a
big renaissance or ballroom in the United States, Like what
is this? What do these people do? Like what do
you mean? You know, I'm a US national champion, my
brothers a seventeen time US champion, World champions, you know,

(10:57):
all of these sort of like things started to come
up and people realize it's a huge industry. You know
that we didn't know about. So, you know, I was
given this incredible opportunity. Came from Ukraine. I didn't speak
the language, but had a skill dancing when I was four,
Like I said, fourteen, I was not very good in
Ukraine's standards. Everyone danced very hard. Competitive career too, you know,

(11:24):
to follow. But I would have done it, but I
got I was I had a different you know, I
had a different path. Nice. Wow, Okay, well that's interesting.
That's like when people go over to you know, play
basketball and Israel or something. It's it's true, and then
come and then come back and actually do because what

(11:44):
happened is us in the way that it was at
the time and the confidence that it was given us
because the pool of competitors was much smaller. We were
building the industry. We were then going out and representing
us of the world, and we were doing amazing things. Well,
that's interesting you're saying. If that's an interesting just note

(12:06):
for people you're if you're in a cea of a
bunch of people like you that are doing what you're
you know you're doing, and you don't seem like you're
shining to go be a big fish in a small pond.
Then come back to the big pond. You might have
a different bravado, a different confidence, a different skill set
where maybe maybe even your your charm or your personality
comes through or some other thing comes through, so you

(12:26):
could succeed back somewhere where you were just flat. I
mean they were jumping. But you know, as a young
father to a five year old, now, you know, I
think about this all at the time. What skills set,
how do I use it? How what do I give him?
You know, how do I boost his confidence? And then
I get stuck on that boost his confidence. I'm like,
you know, I my confidence was boosted when I moved

(12:48):
to us, and all of a sudden, dance became my
you know, my high card. You know. It wasn't like
I was caught one, like you said, I'm in the
big seal of like a lot of fish. You know,
I got this pond and I was like, you know what,
I'm gonna take this opportunity and we were in with it. Um.
And so the confidence, I was going to say, the

(13:09):
confidence that you get from an opportunity where someone comes
and says, well, you're great, You're special, this is a
special skill and then you hear that, like, you know what,
it is a special skill. And just because I'm in
a in a class who in the city, on the
country where it's super popular everybody does it does mean
my skill is not special. People forget funny. So true.

(13:30):
It's true with kids because I know some people who
have kids and they're frustrated that they don't have a passion,
like you can't just force that, and they're frustrated that
they don't have some purpose that they funnel their energy into.
My daughter is an artist and she is passionate about it.
She'll sit in an art room for hours and hours

(13:51):
and focus on it. So this is that's so beautiful.
Thank you she made she made I think twenty five
of these. She made twelve thousand Ukraine. But it's nice
for kids to have something. It could be anything. It
could be collecting buttons and just to sit in a room,
not be on the phone or the TV, and to
funnel and channel your energy. And so I foster that,

(14:11):
you know, I mean, her teacher say she's the best
in her I mean she's very good. But I don't
know in the world. It doesn't matter. You just feed it.
I keep feeding it. And you know, telling her how
great it is, and you want to promote that because
you want them to just feel special at something. So
I agree with what you're saying because it boosts confident.
I'm actually I'm actually just quoting Peter. I gotta admit that,
you know, she brought a lot of what I never had,

(14:34):
or you know, the perspective that I never had into
my life. And when we got together, the you know,
shy is is like a perfect I hope would be
a product of the both of us. You know, I'm
going to bring whatever I bring. I just feel like
she levels me and she focuses my you know, this

(14:56):
sort of spread out kind of energy drink. I'll go
hard a where and she's like, well, why don't we
just focus on things at hand? And amongst other ways
that I feel. Now I'm realizing that she's controlling me
to but that's yeah, but that's that's the reality is
that you know, I know, hard upbringing. You know, I'm

(15:19):
not gonna say that our parents beat us. Now I
got as a couple of times, but that was like
not you know, I was loved and that's what made
us not just survived. Brooklyn and the mid nineties, but
you know, get better and and and grow and self
educate or educate be you know, take things in. You know,

(15:42):
we stayed passionate because we were coming out every day
out of our apartment and we're like, let's go get it.
Because every night when we come home, every evening, and
I feel like, oh, you know, you know, I don't
have need friends, I don't have a social life. You know,
I feel depressed as a teenager. I'm already depress and
I'm depressed not in the speaking the language, you know,

(16:03):
and all of these things. I would come home, I'd
get a hug, a hot meal, you know this constantly.
There was love, a lot of love in the house
and so you know, they struggled and we didn't know.
We we knew, but it would kind of like everybody struggles,
sort of like we made it normal and you know,
let's go great to come from something, To come from

(16:25):
something like that, the pride, to build something, to see
it on the other side now, to then see your
parents differently, I mean, all of that is really makes
creates a texture in the personality. And I'm seeing it
three with you and I'm we'll get to Ukraine. But
I'm I've seen it, you know, Like I said, I
don't know you that well, but I'm seeing this come through.
You do need to be harnessed in different areas. We

(16:45):
even talked about that within relief, you wanted to do
everything and you've got to be really focused to make
an impact. But by the same token, I'm seeing that
all of this purpose sort of coming to fruition in
your life. At the same time, it's overwhelming. I get
it too, you know. You sure, we only have so
many years on this planet. You're trying to figure out
exactly how to focus and channel your energies on bullshit,

(17:07):
on money, on this, on that, on philanthropy, I mean,
you know, on relationships. Um so dancing with the Stars coming.
You didn't come to this country for Dancing with the Stars.
You came because of dancing, and you know it did
create this resurgence or almost a beginning for ballroom dancing

(17:27):
in this capacity in this country. So it's weird this
this intersection of luck and your skill and the entertainment
industry that all came together. Probably for a lot of
the people on this show, it must have been like,
holy sh it, we're just dancers and no one cares
what we're doing. We're in this niche, little weird world
and now this becomes this mega, crazy, really household name hit.

(17:51):
So how did that whole thing come together? Well, I mean,
you know, we didn't think that that way, you know.
So the timeline is now, uh, two thousand five is
eleven years after we've arrived in the US, and so
in the eleven years leading up to UM, you know,
we've done a lot, We've grown up. I'm now a

(18:13):
professional who's basically retired from competitive ballroom dancing by going
on Dancing with the Stars. I didn't know it at
the time, but that's how it happened, right, And I
was ready for that two thousand five, you weren't. The
first season though it was a ready a success or,
it was not a success No, no, Well I missed
the pilot season which was during the summer six episodes,

(18:34):
and then the second season when it was coming around, UM,
I would get the same call. And the way it
was made, these calls were made this by Now this
is the ballroom dancing is an industry. It's an industry
in the United States, and it's a well represented industry
by US. Valle is now a two time world champion.

(18:54):
You know, I'm now a big time you know, professional,
but in the world, none of us. But I've been
signing autographs in Germany since since early two thousands, you know,
because because outside of the US, were a big deal.
And so now you've got this ballroom dancing come to
the big the big screen the television right at the time,

(19:16):
and so people are looking at it like this is dope,
this is awesome. I like it. It's corny, it's cute,
it's funny, it's interesting, it's athletic. There they all have accents.
Why is this guy on my television speaking the way
he's speaking and saying just weirdly constructed sentences, you know,

(19:37):
But then he does the church and I did it.
So it's a good description. That was just listen. You know,
somebody told me one time that like the success of
Dancing with the Stars is in the fact that it
was never number one. It was always like top two three,
two three, two three, And so if you're number one,

(19:59):
if you don't retain number one, you'd be like when
you're two or three, it's like, okay, it's not for
that show to go Dancing with the Stars that's somebody's
favorite pastime for generations at this point. Yeah, it's unbelievable.
I mean, we're competing with Monday night football for damn

(20:20):
near decade and a half. Amazing. But and what's but
what's jumping off the page? It's funny because years ago
I was going to Apprentice, and when I did that show,
my friend said, they didn't show that you were funny, like,
because it's all about the competition. It was about the competition,
and even more so obviously on Dancing with the Stars.
Your personality, I don't even think ever comes across like

(20:43):
you're cute, you're funny, you're handsome, you're you could be
a little tough, you know whatever, you're you're good looking,
but like you're fine. I mean, even the way you
just describe that, like they should have had you doing
the promo, I don't think your personality, even to this day,
and even within with the relief work, you're so intense
about it because it's obviously not you charming, but you
have a really funny personality and a really good way

(21:04):
of putting thoughts together. In my opinion, you're a good communicator.
Now that you know the subject is popular and we
can talk Ukraine, but this the city I'm from, Adessa
is actually a known for its comedic backgrounds in former
USSR and just in general in that in that community.

(21:25):
But yeah, no, we just have fun sense of humor.
And if you lead with self deprecation, you can just
go straight up be a stand up comic if you
just fabulary to follow it. So um, look I should
try it. I have a couple of moments in my
illustrious uh D answering with the star's career that are
still famous for its just I can't believe this guy

(21:50):
just said that, Like what, I cannot believe he just
did that, you know, and so and this was naturally
coming out. But you know, I was gonna answer your
question about like people don't know me. I agree with
that because there was a moment when somebody I was
just completely always disappointed with the way I'm looking. I
look at the packages. At some point there was a
period of time when I was you know that moment

(22:12):
they showed before you dance and I'm like, wow, I
look like an asshole, you know, Like why am I
constantly this d bag? Right? Like? Why am I? Why
is this? This is not my this is now have
a field. It's now I feel neat. I'm proud and funny.
I'm like, you know, swap but as a joke and
this is never serious. But anyway, the someone told me

(22:35):
at that time one of those high end exacts in
charge of all this stuff, and I remember, you know complaint.
It's like, look, if you don't say it, we don't
have it. I'm like, okay, cool. So at the moment,
I was like right, But then I followed up with
but I give you fifty hours of rehearsal time at
that time, unregulated. I have a person that just needs

(22:57):
a lot of time, and I dedicate my self. I
give it forty good hours. Or I'm in the room,
I'm rehearsing and for thirty second piece, you're gonna choose
only that, right, No think So for a long time
I thought it was on me. It's not. It's under
way that they need to have been the character that's

(23:18):
told dark sess nonsense and it's like, is the you know,
not per se guest stone because you never really feel
bad for him. But I'm like that antagonist character that
was chosen to be and I didn't know. I didn't
know that it was right, But well, I don't know
because I think, like me, you have a resting bitch face.

(23:41):
That's my just like you don't understand inside on the inside,
I'm cute and cuddly. I just you're intense. I may
be very cute and cuddly too, but I'm intense. And
so when people see your resting bitch face or how
intense you are, listen, I saw how you were during
what went on with Ukraine, and it's intense. You're hyper focused.
It's the only thing you're focused on. And that's how

(24:03):
you are with dancing. So good because it's hard to
for people listening who are into business. You can't be,
you know, a jack of all trades. When you're so
intense about business. It's very serious. It's money when you're
doing relief for it's very serious when you're dancing at
that competitive level. So you are, you are intense in

(24:24):
that way, and that's what comes across and frankly, that's
what the show was about. It was about the competition.
That's why I mentioned it because I went through that
with the Apprentice. It was not it was not The
show was not that was to me, that was my
intensity and that was the root of all of this stuff.
The show is to entertain I get it. I didn't
know that. I thought, oh damn, I was given an opportunity.

(24:47):
Here you go, what do you do best? And I'm like,
I go for a wind. That's my best quality. Like
you put me in the front start line. And if
the end result is who finished this first, I'm gonna
give them my own, you know, and then there's no dispute. Right.
But if but then there was another component, this is entertainment,

(25:09):
and another component it's not about value, right, and another
component the judges. And this is also not about anything.
So it's like it's just a lot of things that
I was not ready for. That side, Well, it's all
about the Benjamin's baby. It's all about business. It's all
about ratings. So if that's entertainment, if that's a competition,
if that's sex sells, that's what it is. That's what

(25:31):
it is on Shark Tank, that's what it is on
The Apprentice, that's what it is on all these shows.
That's what it is on Housewives. It's about the money
and the selling. So how are you bringing people into
your store? So whatever it is that people are doing
they have a store, those are the windows. How are
you decorating your windows? And if it's you being that guy,
then that's how that window gets secorated, and that's what

(25:52):
you're portrayed to be. It didn't have somebody telling me that.
I had somebody tell me that probably along the way,
but no one really set it down like listen, you're
not listen. You let just listen to what the war's up.
Because I heard like, hey, you can't be this, or
hey you shouldn't be that, and then my Grandma's like,
m know what, you know, why would you say that?

(26:12):
You know? So it was never like hey, you know what,
you can do that right. You can express yourself. You
can continue running your brand right what I understand now,
But you can do it in the way that everybody
doesn't cringe, you know on Monday night when they relaxed
after a long day of work and they don't want
to see that. That's a different program. Right, Even in

(26:35):
non entertainment, even in regular business, people have to stop
the stand back and recognize that. When I wanted to
be on the Apprentice and I met with Mark Burnett,
I was about the business. I'm successful, I'm not successful.
I'm smart, I'm motivated. Whatever they wanted, yes, you had
to check that box to get in there. Just like
the dancing, you can't not know how to dance, but
they wanted entertainment. And in business people, the people that

(26:57):
are going to sixty it is the one who's going
to be a bit arismatic in the meeting or the
one who's a little bit intense. Are the one who
gets their thoughts across or the person who everyone wonders
what they're thinking. It's the same thing. You have to
be compelling to get your point across one way or
the other. I mean, I have people that have worked
with me, assistance and staff. If they're pleasurable to be around,
if they're entertaining, if they're fun, if I enjoy them,

(27:18):
that's gonna work better than somebody who's not pleasurable to
be around. So it's interesting how it works in so
many different ways. Even if it's not entertainment, it's about
what's drawing people in. And by the way, in philanthropy too,
you know what's the message. I bet you saw this,
and it's frustrating philanthropy for many people. Um philanthropy is

(27:40):
is marketing in many ways. So ten different people want
you to bring money into their places, right, and many
of them are middle men and women. Many of them
these celebrities, now you probably know so much more than
your new a year ago. I've been doing this for
a while. Celebrities link here and donate here. But that
celebrity does it know what that thing is that's to

(28:01):
another place. So now you've stopped on a stop and
you're giving money. But they're saying, what, I'm going to
tell you to give money to me, and I'm going
to give it to them. Well, I want to talk
to them, so I tried to be with them, meaning no, no,
I'm in control of the money. So this is where
the money is going. Being transparent talking about the problem.
As you learned, you were telling about the problem in Ukraine.
Then you were trying to direct people. But as you

(28:23):
saw people get over it. It's cool for a week.
It's cool, just like it's cool to watch Johnny Depp
this week, but not next week. It'll be somebody else's divorce.
Last week it was cool that j Lo was getting
engaged someone else next week. So it's weird because philanthropy,
which you just got a real intense dose of is
also marketing. It's a not for profit business, but you

(28:45):
have to find your way in and no one to
pull in. So anyway, I want want to hear more
experience with that. Yeah, I had a crazy entry left
entry way into philanthropy, into world of fundraisers and charitable life.
If you will, UM back in a day. You know,

(29:07):
I just started playing golf and we are hot on
Dancing with the Stars. This is like eleven, twelve and
thirteen fifteen, I don't even know, years ago something like that.
And I literally just hit the club for the first time.
I had no business plan on the on the course,
and uh, A friend of mine calls me. It's like, hey,
I was supposed to do this golf tournament. You go, Like, sure,

(29:28):
I went, and it was for fundraiser of celebrity golf
tournament for child health and I had no idea what
that is. And so I got there and I see
this expensive experience of golf golfing, and then you get
together and there's an auction and then there's a night
after and the gal and I was like, you know,
the really raising money for these in battle you know, abuse,

(29:50):
severely abused kids. Um I'm like, I want to see that,
and I don't know. It just irked me. When we
were talking about this, I was like, oh, this is
this got really down for a second. I've never been
to these functions before. You know, it's fun. It's everybody's
communicating and boomed down and fundraising starts and they say

(30:10):
that stuff and you're like, you look around the room
and like, it's not the right entertainment, you know program.
At the moment, I thought, I was like, what do
you meaning. It's it's it's tone deaf to be here
with all these celebrities at the highest level talking that
thing you'd direct. They started, they started announcing like here's

(30:31):
the you know, the pictures, and you know, I'm like, wow,
this is really dark, and I'm like, is this event
kind of like for that? But then so I got
really confused. Anyway, so I wanted to follow up and
went out and I visited one of the villages and
it just blew my mind. You know, once you see
kids that were severely abused. She's tagging on your leg

(30:52):
and she's like nine, it's village. Oh so so child help.
This organ is sayation has three villages in the United States,
the big communities where they bring the kids, um, rehab them,
do their back. And so the point of this whole
thing was this is a ninety plus million a year

(31:14):
type of fundraising organization. So it's a big deal, Devans.
It's a big because I learned a lot and I
understood the value of entertainment as part of this, because
you've got to give somebody, you know, an opportunity to
donate because they have such a great time. I learned
the fact that you can't, you know, really frown upon

(31:36):
the way people donating because who cares why he writes
to check and with what face? As long as he
writes to check or she writes to check, and this
goes to you know, the foundation, so you know. But
then I learned the business side of this whole thing,
and the dirty side of some other stuff, not through childhood,
but through just in general, you know, fund raises and

(31:58):
everything else. I helped old foundations and organizations. I left
some because it was like, that's not the way, you know.
I like this to be organized, and that's your way
of doing it, and I want to be part of this.
When Ukraine tragedy happened and I would happened to be

(32:18):
a judge on a TV show in Ukraine, a judge
on a TV show I have at that time. You know,
I spent like eight nine months actively working in Ukraine
since last year, since twenty one, and I've started to
you know, taking a lot of relationships and I created

(32:40):
a lot of new relationships, and I you know, that's
why not to jump out. But for me, this war
has faced his names, last names, my manager who's now
a refugee with our kids. I mean, this it's just
a lot. We'll get that. But you know, now I
was there for consistently long enough and deeply rooted enough,
every connected back and now that you know, I've rekindled

(33:03):
and we've made it up with my birth mother. I
still love my mom because that's us. For me, that's
that's my home. I'm from, you know, that's where I met.
But you know, this is now a relationship I want
to continue, you know, and I want to continue figuring
figuring out. I was welcomed by the country, I was

(33:24):
welcomed by the people, and I had a great time.
The war starts, and so I feel like it was
that moment when you know, I was for the first
time in that child health village where it just shocked me.
You know, there was a moment when the little girl
tagged on my leg and she couldn't have been older
than nine and kind of give me a look sleft

(33:47):
me on the butt, said something sexy. I just blew
my mind. And then they took her away and the
gentleman was explaining to me like, yeah, she was, you know,
great since it was a little girl and so she's
like in rehab, and it was just like, my god, Wow,

(34:07):
that's a crazy story. That's a crazy way of getting
into understanding why, no matter what, it is important to
raise funds for this organization, for this type of foundation,
because that's what they're dealing with, that's what they're doing.
So now it made sense to me. I was in
I was committed cut to and you're you're you know

(34:31):
that's years ago and now you're connecting to Ukraine kid
and I'm now professionally, you know, committed to charitable opportunities
because why else, because I'm a TV personality, what do
I do for the world, you know what I'm saying, like,
how do I paid forward? How do I earn that karma?

(34:51):
You know, it's not the chart because you make I
made you feel good, yes, but what else? You know,
it's not enough. And so I created the sort of
subworld of just you know, helping and being charitable. I'm
in Ukraine, got to February and I'm shooting a TV

(35:11):
show dance then your world of dance in Ukraine, and
I wake up in this war, you know. And so
then I got stuck whatever that process was. Then in
the process and now communicating with the people that I
judged yesterday at dance competitions and today he's at the
front line with the gun and I can't even connect

(35:33):
the two and I can't process it. Then the bombing started,
Then Bucher started. Then you know, all of that nuns
and started. By the time I got out of you,
of of Ukraine and made my way back, and I
was in war. So it was full blown. It was
a war, and it was war on the people that

(35:58):
I now this is these are my people, you know,
and I'm proud of these people. You know. The Brooklyn
is my people that you will ask me, you know,
you know me. You love me, you love me. You
love me in Kentucky, you love me. In Alabama, you
love me because I've traveled this country, because I've done it.
If you don't like me, I love you too. But

(36:19):
I'm saying I've been here. This is you know, I'm
figuring out. I'm exploring other people and have some made
this crazy connection and it happens to be where I'm from,
and we speak the same language. And they're getting bombed
and then bomb shelters so quickly, the executive producers of
my project and bomb shelters. I can even call him

(36:40):
and be like, hey, get me out of the country
because I'm like, what kind of presson? She's got kids.
You gotta deal with that first. You know, it's crazy
to right, they're the ones in charge to like help
you as a talent, but in everts every person for
themselves because and I try to like get myself off
of anyone's response stability. You know, the rest is sort

(37:02):
of history now and sort of like I made my
way out to Warsaw, I look back and I'm like,
there's no way that this is the end of me.
And relation to that, there's no way that I'm going
to wait this out and get back to like guys,
call me when the show is back on. It feel
bad for you, Like, there's no way that that's my step,

(37:22):
like regardless of what I feel and how maybe I
was just too stressed and this is a crazy experience.
Trust me, will trust me for the people that are
in it. You know, we're not we're talking levels, right,
But for me, it was like an entry level experience
in the war. You know, thank god I didn't get shot.

(37:43):
We've been shot at, but it was terrifying to be
anywhere in the vicinity of that. Oh no, you gotta
complete wake up call that life, and whether you're Ukrainian
or from Boklyn, it's it's just crazy that you experience that.
And then you came home and I know because we spoke,
and you just wanted to be of service, and you

(38:05):
wanted to go back because everybody's goal is to get
the hell out of there. So you got the hell
out of there, and then you felt like, wait, now
you know you shall shock post traumatic, so you go
back and I know that you've connected with my team
and other teams and we're there for how long when
you went back? So you know, before I went back,
I was you know, we spoke and uh and and

(38:25):
and I literally just wanted to hear, what what am
I doing? What is this? How do I process it?
And you are you know, kind to just explain stuff
and put everything in perspective and also give me a
look into the business side of that too, because now
I'm trying to be productive in the new era, in
the new direction, taking with me everything that we have
and that I've learned about, even business. You know, my

(38:48):
dad was so successful with the fourth Leade in New Jersey,
you know um set up and then the sort of
the sale of bar and over twenty seven the organization
that we started because we were able to, you know,
apply all the tools and elements of running our own

(39:09):
you know, multilocational corporation of them, because you're not gonna
scaling it. You scaled a small business. You're trying to
scale a small business. And that's what I was trying
to say to you that like with philanthropy, there's only
one you, and you have a voice and you have
millions of people listening to you. So you could go
do this one thing that is going to be lovely
and nice and go into one house and help one person,

(39:29):
or you could scale this, which is what we've done.
And so it takes a little while, and I had
to learn that too. You get sucked down every drain
and you go and you want to help every single
puppy and every branch and every child, and you got
to pick your spots because comes a scalable business. Yeah,
because what people don't realize is in the conflict in war.
I just don't want to confuse war with conflict. But

(39:51):
in the situation this of this magnitude. I mean, you
know how they say every little bit helps, I don't
know about that. Like every little bit makes it a
messy situation. I'm so glad. I can't believe you just
said that. No one said that except for my partners Michael,
who you know and I people all the time, people

(40:12):
in the entertainment industry, very successful people. I want to
bring my son over. We have a trunk full of
clothes we want to bring. I'm like, and I don't
mean to be rude, I'm like, we have a hundred
and fifty million dollar operation. If you know someone at
toys Rs. That wants to send me ten million dollars
in toys, I can distribute those, But a trunk full
of clothes I can't help you with. Or people we

(40:32):
want to go over there. I want to bring my
child to go over there. I'm like, okay, so when
you get there, let me well, like, how do you
coordinate it? I'm like, I'm not running like a team tour.
I've got you know, so the little things sometimes and
what I mean to not be negative to people who
want to help, because I was listening, Go to your
local school, church, get organized, collect everything sorted, get volunteers

(40:55):
for that. Then be like, we have this, we have
a hundred T shirts in this these sizes, and then
we can merchandise it. But but you are scaling a
small business. You just said that. You know, you're talking about, Hey,
why don't we organized right there? Pause? Because that's not
what she wanted to do. And to be honest with you,

(41:16):
you know, I'm gonna have to call out some people
because now I have that experience too. We're collecting over
two hundred fifty thousand pounds and yeah, you know, uh
with gam and be strong and Mike. It's a small
fish in a big sea. But now I'm sort of
understanding the process. I know how to funnel it the

(41:37):
right way. We have collected two hundred fifty pounds and
you know, I'm gonna tell you he's talking about aid.
He's collecting eight and then it's about distributing it. It's
like literally like any other businesses, marketing, sales, marketing, distribution.
He's got the aid, now he's gonna have to distribute it.
But I was gonna say that I want to call
out people who sent us stayed clothing and I'm talking

(42:02):
staying like peace, things like it smells you know who
sent us uh past do food? You know who sent
us past do? I don't even know how you find
that hand sanitizes. You know that I like expired some
crazy things that would expiration data was like years ago.

(42:24):
And the call out is this, like if you decided
to use this way to clean out your closet, don't
do that. You're not helping who are you helping. You're
talking about people who lived a very you know, successful
life in a in a in a in a European
country that have now fled, and you are saying, here

(42:47):
you go, you're welcome with with with something so degrading.
You're not helping with the process. You you're hurting the process.
You sort of like say something Max, this is the
thing that I try to tell people because they want
to help people think because they can't give money that
they want to help in this way and people's voice
is more important. There are major corporations like Amazon, like Goya,

(43:10):
like kind Bar, like Delta that will help if you're
a credible relief effort. Okay, so we have those people,
so you're we we implore you to be the voice
the communicators. The switchboard Max is one voice. I'm one voice.
If you communicate what we're doing, those big companies will listen.

(43:30):
So rather than dump out your trunk full of clothes,
which will have to sort and it's not helping, your
voice is worth millions of dollars because your vice voices
who these big companies are listening to, and that's when
they'll then give us millions of pounds of aid that
we can distribute. That's why people have to be educated.
Though they don't know. They just think, let me give
them anything. They're desperate and they don't know. I don't

(43:53):
know people, Yeah, I mean, yeah, you're right. I would
also say that, you know, if you are an organization
like us and you decided to scale and you have
this you know what they say organic attachment to the
to the to the to the process. Um, you know
we are Ukrainian. Baranova is a street and address in

(44:14):
Odessa that's literally getting bombed right now where I was born,
my dad was born. Baronova is the name of the street.
That's literally our address of place of birth in Ukraini.
So that's the name of our effort. Yes, So I'm saying, like,

(44:34):
with the experience of you know, entertainment industry that I have,
it made sense. With the experience of the business uh
set up and failures and lessons in business that we have, um,
we're able to grow this if you are just a
very very sort of philanthropic person by nature, and you

(44:57):
feel from a very far away I'm not facetious about this.
I'm just kind of trying to describe the most of
the people, you know. When I flew back from Warsaw
too Los Angeles, I realized how far away I am,
you know, and how far away all these people are.
So unless you're into politics and geopolitics and nervous about

(45:18):
you know, economic downfall and inflation and stuff like that,
you're far away. You live your life, you might not
be connected. So if you're very philanthropic in that sense,
and you saw this on the news, and you want
to help send five dollars to to just five dollars
to an organization you trust to do this, right you me,
Mike us whoever, just five bucks you help more than

(45:42):
if you send a lot of stuff that isn't something
that I'm gonna follow ze because now I'm in costing
me somehow some way to dispose of it if I'm
not smart enough and I have somewhat common take me right. So,
like now we're working with other organizations that unrelated to
your relief efforts, you know what maybe related to like

(46:03):
you know, we just literally dumb clothing we don't need
back into the now it comes a whole I get
exactly well, So you're learning that it's very much like
running a successful business. And the thing I want to
say about that before we get onto your business is
you can't trust every organization or relief effort, just the

(46:24):
same way that you can't trust every business. If you
think that every single business is run well and successful, great,
then that's what you think of charity. But if you
realize that every business is not run well and successful,
you will realize that every philanthropic effort is not. So
do your research. The way that you're investing your money
to invest in philanthropy and someone who's doing it themselves

(46:46):
like you are and passionate is a good start for sure. Um,
your business, So you went to for nine months to
Ukraine and we're on this show. You're still an entertainer.
You're still working in the entertainment industry. What is your
core business? How do you support yourself? What's your goal?
What are you building towards? What's your business now? What
do you do for a living? I mean, it's it's

(47:08):
it's interesting because you know, we have to also mention
that we're just coming out of craziness for a couple
of years that we've just lived through, you know, with pandemic.
Oh no, I know, and I'm changing my entire career too.
But I'm asking for something. What would they do? I'm
a dancer, I say, you know, when people ask me

(47:28):
like what do you do? You know I'm a professional dancer.
Oh great, Oh it's like that show. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
oh yeah, I haven't seen you on it. And I'm like, yeah,
well I don't. I'm not on the number. What do
you do now? Okay, well now I own a chain
of dance studios. You know, we have fourteen locations high
end social dance studios that are called Dance with Me

(47:50):
in eight states. We're very proud of that. Weeds my brother,
my dad, and a business partner, and and the team
of people that we've worked with for a very long time.
Some of them, you know, some of whom were my
ex students who became at some point part time than

(48:12):
full time. Now they're like, you know, corporate directors. So
you know, we have a great company that we built
from scratch, like I said, learned a lot on um.
And again the beauty of that is it's in eight states,
and that that gives me an opportunity to experience every
kind of person in the United States, you know, and
and understand every kind of market in the United States.

(48:34):
And also maybe we set ourselves up for a little
bit of like economic you know, ups and downs that
we can regulate because we are not just in the
New York State where you know, for example, COVID laws
were a little different, but we also have five locations
in Texas where COVID laws were a little different and
allowed us to continue staying afloat. So we did some

(48:56):
things that you know, we're proud of. What well, I
guess that's good for me to um the last question,
which is your rose and your thorn of your career?
The high and the low of your career? Um, the
higher and the low. I think you know, if you
talk about career and the business and it's finance and finances,

(49:20):
you know it has to be financial, you know, the
highest you know I have, I'm I'm in two most expensive,
hardest to succeed cities, you know, New York City. I
have a you know mentioned and you know cars, and
I'm supporting my parents and you know, my brother in

(49:42):
a way. And then you know, I'm also in l A.
And I'm just like this the Bachelor on at at
some point top TV show, you know, for a period,
for short period of time, we were like the top
TV show in the country, and probably you know, probably
ran sort of like you know, the reality genre of TV,

(50:07):
you know, landscape at that time, right, And so I
have my life in l A and the entertainment industry.
So I'm like, I'm feeling I'm feeling that, right, and
then and then I feel the confidence and I'm like bamm,
and then the wings spread, and that's what I realized.
It wasn't the confidence the cockiness, you know, and it's
like everyone has that, and it was literally I was

(50:28):
watching somebody else who's super successful. Oh shock, you know, shock,
You're asked shack. He's like, he's literally just said that.
It's like, you know, you think you're perfectly not perfect,
and then he says, you know, Penny Hardaware relationship was awful,
Kobe Bryant relationship with Big Mistake. This is the guy
who at the time was pumping himself in the chest,

(50:50):
I'm the best that you're nothing about me. And I'm like, wow,
that's so familiar. You know, today we respect the guy
for his entire career, everything he's done right, but he's
admitting to the stuff that we were witnessing, Like, yeah,
that kind of seems wrong, Like don't you think and
you know, I have to look to drink your own
kool aid. I'm saying everyone dreams their own kool aid.

(51:14):
I'm saying everyone who gets into this and loses their
head with the success drinks the kool aid um. I
don't have that. I don't have the mension, I don't
have the whips on both sides. That's how you know,
I was saying in b k UM, I don't have

(51:38):
that part of my life right. A couple of years ago,
I was gonna say, pre pandemic, things exploded, you know, personally,
not you know personally, but like business exploded, there was
some other things just exploded, and things that I felt
secure about not and things that I felt insecure about

(52:00):
became the sort of the life the refts. Right, it's
all just very a little trivial, but it's all personal.
But it's again it's describing what everyone goes through. Whether
you're you know, in finance and you know you had
money in the wrong stock, you know, and and then
this happened, or whether you and you know me and
I don't know whether if you're a professional athlete and

(52:21):
you I don't know, God for a bit broken me,
you know what I'm saying like that, That's how I
look at it, Like I had a financial career that
took a hit, you know, and I needed to and
I got depressed, and there was points and there were
law in life, and then I was just starting to
come out and then bank pandemic and again would feel like,

(52:41):
oh my god, the world is coming to an end.
This is very why me at this time? That's how
you by you, why the whole planet and so and
to us, it gave us an opportunity to come Okay, cool,
Well you know what this is too crazy? You and
your brother? Are you and your father? Are you in

(53:02):
your whole family? Just me by myself, Me and my
had to you had But this is what you've done.
You had to pull yourself up in your bootstraps and
figure the ship out. And you did like you got
you got organized, and you like did what everybody did
in the pandemic. You got your shipped together and shook
it up. Yeah. And and and I feel like I
you know, I feel I feel different. I speak different,

(53:23):
and my train of thoughts different, and I look forward
to different things differently, you know. And again that's and
again just bringing the soul back, and then the fam
and it's again end of the world. We're in war.
What is happening? You know what I'm saying. And then
once again and now you and I was just an
exercise of of don't lose your head, you know, no

(53:44):
matter what, and every down follows by up, you know,
it's just natural way of things. Um, and you know
the black stripe and white stripe. They you know, So
there's certain things you're in control of, certain things you're
not in control. I'm in control of every single reaction
that I that I make. You had, you hit multiple

(54:09):
back to back doses a reality, but the final dose
was the war, which made you realize that none of
the ships you were even worried about mattered, and that
life and death mattered, and that child trafficking matter, and
the family mattered, and being safe mattered. And so you
really I think that's the whole reason for you having
some PTSD, all of the things you just described, not
just the war, but personal, a personal low, financial hit,

(54:35):
a pandemic, a war. And now you're coming out on
the other side. Yeah. And the perspective is like, listen
to five minutes that I was negligent with, you know,
spending with my son. Oh, that just don't be negligent,
because when is that Like you're gonna look in the
bank at some point metaphorically and be like, you know,

(54:56):
I wish I had all those five minutes, yes to
gether right now, you know, and and had more of
that time. You're gonna feel that way at some point
not being philosophical about this something you know, you can't
you can get that the money, who cares about the money.
You can get the money, but you can't get the
time back. You cannot get the time back. And so

(55:17):
it's quality of time, quality of time for me at
the moment, multiplied by you know, just quality of time
with the multiplied by the right people. You know, really
because then you you know, you get something out of it.
You you give a lot and and you don't you know, yeah,

(55:39):
I just don't want to digress. But I think one
of the things that really helped is that is that
the circles. The circles also change, and I think it
comes with you know, now you have a kid, you're
a different person. You know, you're a different person. Will
get married, you're different person. We have a child, you're
a different person. Where you have to because now you
come back out like guys are back, you know, and

(56:00):
then everybody's like, now we just now got our first
so we only started. So you know, for me, a
lot of that stuff is also relevant. My circle of
people changed a little bit. People that are in my
house every day, I'm not the same people that used
to be you know, and so it's just this interesting.
Life is incredible. Well, life is incredible. It's an amazing

(56:21):
place to end. But it's funny because you made you.
You expressed that your rose and thorn are one. They're
like a circular reference, the high and the Without that, Hi,
you wouldn't have hit that low. But that low is
now turning into a new high because it's more like
it's with perspective. So I think it's life is beautiful.
It's a great place too. And I appreciate you, and

(56:42):
I appreciate the discussion and now really getting to know you,
because now I can definitely say I know you. And
I appreciate all the awareness you've raised for Ukraine and
being so passionate about it and finding that new side
of your life, and your wife being my the one
who is communicating with me, my switchboard operator to talk
to you no and listen. I thank you so much,

(57:02):
And again I just want to have to say mentioned
thank you. Mike. Mike Caponi is a big dude, and
it's like as a big it's a big influence. You know.
I'm I've yet to know him as a person. You know,
I'm not gonna lie he's talking about my partner in
relief for who's on the ground still in Poland. Months later,
he dedicated his life to philanthropy, had a very screwed
up life and pulled himself out of the dumps of

(57:25):
life on his own, and he's dedicated his life to
philanthropy and he worked together and found each other. Yeah, no,
it's incredible what what you guys have done with Jim
be strong and then and and the lastly, you know,
the war in Ukraine maybe overstune may not, but the
damage is unprecedented. And unprecedented is not a word you

(57:50):
can't say a lot, right when I say I'm precedented
is yeah, but we had World War Two, Yes we did.
We didn't use things as he has been used now,
and the destruction was kind of different type of destruction.
And uh, I feel like there's no comparison, and it's
not about that. But my generation has probably never seen that,

(58:16):
you know, And so I feel like, uh, the reason
why I need to continue doing this is because for
a very long time after the relief effort that I
chose to be a part of, the humanitarian is going
to have to continue. Oh no, well, we we always
say we're there long after the headlines fade, and unlike
a hurricane, which stops and then you're dealing with the aftermath,

(58:39):
which is horrifying. And we've seen so much in Haitian
the world. This is still ongoing. It may not be
at the same favorite pitch, but once it stops, you're
dealing with what you were dealing with after Hurricane Katrina,
but you're dealing with lives and relocation and crazy stuff.
And not everyone is interested in this all the time,
which is why, uh, my unsolicited advice to you, Max
is pick your time to talk about it and make

(59:01):
it really compelling, because effectively, you are marketing. You have
to get people interested in. If they hear it too much,
they zone out because they want to hear about what
somebody wore to the Grammys. They don't want to hear
about People don't want to hear about death and destruction.
It's sad, but it's true. You have to. That's that's
my next that's my next level of understanding and compartmentalizing

(59:24):
my efforts and making sure that I'm still putting out
a lot. Yeah, Michael wants to post five times a
day every day, because that's what he's doing and that's
his main thing, and he is a core group that
wants to hear that when he wants me to, I
actually lose followers, believe or not. If I post a
picture of myself in a bathing suit, it will do
very well. But you post a picture yourself in a
bathing that I promise you will do very well. You

(59:44):
post a picture of Ukraine. Right now, they're full. People
are there might be a cool thing that happens tomorrow
where there's a fire somewhere, and that's the cool thing
to talk about. And it's sad to discuss it this way,
but that's the fact of the matter. So I say
to Michael, I'm not posting right now about this because
people don't have the bandwidth for it. Will do better
if we wait until they're digesting it and have something

(01:00:05):
important to say and some takeaway, and then we can
raise money again. But you have to just remember you
have to go with the EBB and flow. It's you
can't change people. This is the way that it is,
and that's why you can be successful. What you are
successful in these efforts because you apply the marketing know how.
The marketing steals. People are yelling at me NonStop, screaming

(01:00:26):
at your phone. They're judging you for what you just said, Like,
how can you say that these people are dying? Yes,
you're right, but that's why I'm doing it this way
because that can make bigger impact and big time exactly
how to utilize my voice. Everybody's talking about how healthy
avocados are. We are, well, avocado is healthy, it's a
healthy if. Every day they're telling you about avocados, You're like,

(01:00:47):
I don't want any avocados anymore. So you have to
you know, it's anything. It's there are people dying in Ukraine,
their kids going to traffic and their orphans. We've extracted
hundred fifty million dollar effort. People don't want to hear
about right now anymore than they want to hear about
my business, my television career anything. So there's just a
way to do it, and it's just it is what
it is. So that's why I said a little bit that'

(01:01:08):
to your wife and to you because you're passionate about it.
But going in and out and finding your way will
be really really amazing and you've done amazing things. Thanks
Thanks Max, have a great day. Okay, So that was

(01:01:36):
that was really interesting. I met Max through my superficial
life of entertainment and reality television. We uh stayed in touch.
When I got deeply involved in an effort in Ukraine,
I realized that Max was there, maxim was there and
connected with him and connected with his wife and was
concerned about his safety and what was going on and

(01:01:56):
how he was getting out. And then he wanted to
get involved in philanthropy there. And we have a massive effort,
uh more than a d fifty million dollar effort that
will take months and months to continue with and we've
extracted orphans and we have multiple warehouses and my partner
Michael Capone and JEM, which is Global Empowerment Mission, are

(01:02:17):
still on the ground uh and doing the heavy lifting,
to be honest. And Max went and visited our warehouse
and he became connected and we've helped him a little
bit too to kind of give him some of our experience.
So he's had an interesting life. I think it's nice
how he was humble about taking a financial hit in
his life, a career hit, uh, trying to rebuild and

(01:02:42):
getting hit with the pandemic, trying to rebuild and getting
hit with a war and just being honest about the struggles.
So it was a different type of interview, a different
type of guests, and I'm really glad for the conversation,
appreciative and I think you'll enjoy it.