February 19, 2021 • 59 mins
From 1985 to 2006 Nick Pope worked as a civil servant for the UK Ministry of Defense researching and investigating UFOs. Pope tells Kesha that governments and politicians are slowly starting to pull the veil down and disclose the evidence we have of aliens and UFOs.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Actually it was a landing and not a crash, so
there wasn't any debris. But what there was, and this
is confirmed in a file on the incident that the
Ministry Defense has now declassified and released what there was.
As well as those burn marks and scorch marks on
the trees, there were levels of radioactivity that seemed significantly
(00:23):
higher than the average background levels. Welcome back to Catch
in the Creepies Today, we welcome Nick Pope. Thank you
(00:46):
so much for coming on my podcast. Hi, Hi there.
Now I don't know how to pronounce this correctly, so
I'm going to just stab at it a you apologist, yes,
although I guess one who did this not as a
hobby but as a government job. So I don't really
call myself a uthologist as opposed to government official who
(01:07):
happened to be lucky enough to be given this amazing
real life X files gig. But that sounds so I
just like have so many questions, how did you get
into that? Is it something you're interested in or did
it volunteer? Lap? It completely fell in my lap. I
was already in the Ministry of Defense and just the
(01:28):
vacancy happened to come up at the exact moment that
I was due for a move, so it was just
right place, right time. But I had no previous interest
in this subject, no background knowledge, no particular beliefs. It
was just I know, this sounds crazy. It was just
another government job. Are there other crazy government jobs we
(01:50):
don't know about that? Are like people that studying ghosts
in the government. Well, they were certainly in the US
government for example, they had a program also looking at UFOs,
as we did in the UK, but also they did
get into so called remote viewing, which is just a
(02:10):
kind of fancy scientific term for psychic stuff. So yeah,
they have been looking at this. And just recently there
was an article I saw it on the BBC News
website talking about things like super soldiers and saying that
a lot of these things that people have been talking
about in terms of sci fi somewhere people are working
(02:31):
on this, Like robot soldiers were a bit of both.
Part of it is absolutely combat robots. And there's a
big debate going on right now about whether there's always
going to be a human in the decision making chain,
particularly if it comes to lethal force. US and UK
governments and some others have said, yeah, there should be
(02:53):
other governments are a little less constrained by those sorts
of legal and ethical and more. All. That's so scary. Yeah,
but part of it, part of this whole super soldier thing,
is human augmentation. And again there was a big article
making some allegations about what what China might be doing
(03:14):
in that regions. So so there's a lot going on
right now that's so terrifying. Okay, So back to the
that you were in the Ministry of Defense in the
UK and you're doing some other job and all of
a sudden a job opens up studying the extraterrestrial activity
(03:38):
or UFOs or we we would just say UFOs or.
In fact, we coined the phrase. We didn't invent it,
but we popularized it U a P. Unidentified aerial phenomena.
And that's now if you look at what's happening recently
with all these stories that I'm sure you've seen about
the U. S. Navy jets chain seeing the phenomenon, they
(04:02):
always used the phrase U a P. So it's the
term that we use in government, in military and the
intelligence community. And we to speak to your point about
extraterrestrial we didn't go in saying well, we didn't really
go in with any preconceived ideas. We just said, if
there's something in our air space, we need to know
(04:24):
what it is because it's automatically a defense a national
security issue. It might be the Russians, it might be
our own technology, some deep black program, or it might
be extraterrestrial. So we went in with an open mind
and just said, let's do the investigations and see what
the data show us. So you go in, are you excited,
(04:46):
are you skeptical, are you nervous, or you're just kind
of ready for whatever? A little bit of all of that.
I think, Um, I'm skeptical, absolutely, but I can't help
but be a cited. It's one of the great sayings
that this subject that the skeptics have to be right
every day, but the believers only have to be right once.
(05:09):
And we're really in the ultimate game changing territory. So
I went in never knowing is the phone going to ring?
Am I going to get the case? The thing that's
going to break this wide open? How? How is it
going to go down? Oh? My god? How long did
you serve at the Ministry at Defense? Twenty one years
(05:30):
in all, but only three years on their UFO program
because you get moved around every few years, either on
level transfer or promotions. So I did a lot of
different things in my twenty one year career. But I
think even now looking back, UFOs has got to be
the most interesting and fun in its way and most profound.
(05:55):
I mean to me, as soon as I think of
extraterrestrial life, then I think of the point of life
and the universe and spirituality and who are we and
why are we here? It just goes so existential so
quickly once you bring in extraterrestrial conversations. And I think
that for me, I've seen some weird things, but like
(06:17):
you said, like I'm not a total conspiracy theory person.
I realized that it could have been someone testing something
or just something I didn't really understand. But I did
see fireballs in the sky and they went away and
then they came back in a different formation. And ever
since I saw it, I've just been completely fascinated with
(06:38):
what we actually know, and what governments know, and what
the science behind it is. I think there's a quote
from me that really stuck out. He said, I strongly
suspect there's life elsewhere in the cosmos, because from observational data,
the laws of physics and the laws of chemistry appeared
to be constant throughout the observable universe. So and less
(07:00):
you believe there's something almost literally magical about Earth, the
same factors that gave rise to life here are likely
to have arisen elsewhere. So for me, that's like summing
it all up. If you believe in science, then it
makes scientific end in the laws of chemistry and physics
(07:20):
for there to be life elsewhere. I think so, yes,
And there was a scientific study just done last year,
I believe, and it came out with this statistic and
it sounded like a low number because they said, we
estimate there might be thirty six civilizations in our Milky
(07:42):
Way galaxy. And that doesn't sound like very many until
you do the math and realize, and I did. I
got out of my calculator and I thought, wait a minute,
Given the number of galaxies they estimate there are in
the universe, that means there might be seventy two trillions
civilization's out there. So it's just mind blowing. So you
(08:04):
can't really say whether or not it would be a
positive or a negative experience with an extraterrestrial because you
don't really know who you're dealing with. I would assume
it would be like any creature where there are some
that are a little nicer than others. Well, I think
it's going to be a spectrum. Yes, if people often
say to me, what do you think the aliens alike?
(08:26):
As if there is just one other civilization in the universe,
And like I just said, with those statistics, chances are
there's a whole bunch of these people out there, and
in which case your point is absolutely the way it
would be. Chances are there's a spectrum, and you know
statistically you're usually in the middle of it. So you
(08:48):
walk into a room, for example, you are usually not
going to be the tallest person or the shortest, or
you will be in the middle. So same with the civilizations.
They're will be many, many more advanced than us, and
others less advanced and morally too. Simply put, there'll be
good aliens and bad aliens and naughty aliens, as there's
(09:13):
probably all different kinds of aliens. I never even thought
about it like that because there's this quintessential picture of
the alien with the head and the gray the gray aliens.
But there was a guy who lived in my mom's basement,
and I'm gonna full disclosure. He was a little cookie.
He's a cookie man. But his name is Carl, and
(09:34):
he told me that JFK was assassinated because he was
going to tell the world about extra trustrial life. They
gave us they as in the extraterrestrials, gave us velcro
and microwaves and on and on and on. So to me,
it's like a little bit confusing because there were some
points Carl made that were pretty impressive. But then I
(09:57):
don't want to dip my toe into conspiracy theory culture either,
because I think that's dangerous. Yeah, I'm not saying that
all conspiracy theories are wrong. I mean I think history
shows us some turn out to be right. And in
relation to UFOs, yeah, I've heard those sorts of stories
about JFK. And I've heard heard a version of that
(10:19):
theory that brings in Marilyn Monroe as well and says
that because they were just tell me, because I want
to know, I have to know, Just tell me. Well,
he talk so, and the theory goes JFK. Let's let's
slip to Maryland that yeah, it's all true. They are aliens.
She was going to disclose that, so they bumped her off,
(10:42):
and then JFK said I'm going to disclose it, and
they bumped him off. I don't believe that. I think
it's a little bit, a little bit though, Oh my god,
I think it's a little bit far out there. But
I suppose it wouldn't be the first time that a
long shot has come in. But I prefer with my
government background, I prefer to ground myself in the sorts
(11:06):
of things that are unfolding. Now. I mentioned those US
Navy videos, but where you've got pilots coming out with this,
where you've got the radar evidence, where you've got classified
briefings in Congress, Yes, yeah, as has been announced very recently.
Senate Intelligence Committee have asked for a report on this
(11:26):
from Director of National Intelligence. So, whatever you think about
some of the more far out stories, all this is
happening here and now. As a matter of on the
record fact, do you think that we're in the age
of potential soon disclosure of this information or do you
think every every ten years people think it's coming and
(11:48):
it just doesn't actually get disclosed from the government. I
think we are further forward than we've ever been, and
I think this Senate Intelligence Committee initiative is going to
certainly move things forward again. But whether we cross the line.
I mean, the UFO community have this concept of disclosure
(12:10):
with a big D and in their mind's eye, it's
the President going on the evening news at primetime saying,
my fellow Americans, people of the world, we're not alone.
My take is it might not quite go down that way.
It might be a little bit more subtle, and I
think that's what we're seeing now. But there are congressional
(12:32):
briefings going on behind the scenes. People like Marco Rubio
have gone on the record to say, look, I'd rather
this was Aliens, because if it's Russia or China, we're
in big trouble. They've made a quantum leap that is
so interesting. And I did see Trumpet let a few
things slide that we're just questionable comments about, you know,
(12:57):
extraterrestrials or UFOs and his obsession with the Space Force.
I can't help but think, like, why would you be
so obsessed if there wasn't something else here? And um,
the former Israeli space security chief, I am a shed
I read what he had said about how there's we've
(13:18):
been in contact with extraterrestrials and we have people on
Mars and an underground bunker that are have relationships with extraterrestrials. Like,
how legit do you think that is? Well, that story
really struck me as being far out. Having said that,
the guy is who he says he is. He did
what he said he did in the Israeli space program,
(13:41):
So he's certainly someone who if if this sort of
thing is out there, as he says he is, someone
who would know. Um, I think it's there. There are
some pieces of that particular puzzle that we don't yet have.
But you know, if any of this was happening in isolation,
I think you could write one or two of these
(14:02):
things off. But but it's more than that. In UM.
For example, the Harvard professor Avy Lobe who spoke about
this strange shaped object that came through our solar system
recently Omua Mua and then a former CIA director, John Brannan,
he gave her an interview where he started suddenly talking
(14:24):
about something that might constitute a different form of life.
And when all these people from whether they're CIA people
or space scientists or professors, who government officials, intelligence community
people who've who whoever they are. When they all come
(14:45):
out with broadly the same sort of thing, all pointing
the same direction, it does make me wonder whether there
isn't some sort of orchestrated campaign here too. Well, you
do you tell them that this, I'll tell them that,
and then before we know it will be over that
line and we'll have had disclosure. Well, and I feel
(15:10):
like like you're saying, maybe disclosure isn't a moment in time.
Maybe it is the information slowly coming at us to
the point where it almost becomes normalized. Because that's what
I've found in my life is I started, you know,
I saw something of the New York Times. Then it's
on the Post, and then it's on TMZ. It's kind
of just like everywhere information about extraterrestrials. I spoke to
(15:35):
fellow singer Demiel Vado about it, and it seemingly people
are kind of unphased. And maybe that's the point, is
to become used to that kind of information. It's not
so crazy, it's not just for crazy people, And like,
wha couldus that we're going through the disclosure and we
(15:55):
don't even realize that we're in it. I think that's right.
And you know, three years ago you mentioned the New
York Times. Three years ago, just over three years now,
they ran a big article where they exposed these Navy
videos that that we've mentioned, and also they exposed the
existence of a secret program called a TIP Advanced Aerospace
(16:18):
Threat Identification Program. And the debate about what they did
and didn't do continues to this day, and the Department
of Defense have flip flopped over it quite a bit.
But there's no getting away from the fact that if
you'd have asked the US government three years ago, um,
(16:39):
what's your line on this, their answer would have been
nobody's interested and nobody's investigating. And now look where we are,
Navy pilots, the videos, the congressional briefings, Director of National
Intelligence drawing up a report on this. It's like it's
it's the whole thing has flipped a hundred and eighty degrees,
(17:02):
come out of the the fringe and into the mainstream
in a way that I think would have been inconceivable
three three years ago. Well, it's a lot of people
that have a lot to lose, especially the respect that
I would assume it would take so many years of
hard work and a determined sense of wanting to work
(17:24):
for the government and be of service and help make
the country stable and good. So to me, like I
sing songs, I can sing about aliens, nobody would bat
an eyelash. But there are a lot of people talking
right now have a lot to lose in terms of credibility,
and I can't help but wonder why would they be
(17:46):
sacrificing their credibility unless it was really real. Absolutely. One
of the people who has spoken out recently is a
retired intelligence official called Luis Alizondo, and he was so
highly principled about this that that he resigned from from
(18:06):
the government over this issue. And he said, look, I'm
not a whistleblower. I took an oath and I'm going
to keep that, you know, very seriously and not divulge
classified information. But within you know, there's a line, and
he went cross it. Neither will I. But within that
(18:27):
Louis Alizondo and some other people too who have been
involved in these sorts of programs, some directly, some indirectly,
have said, look, what they want to do is kick
start a conversation with the American people about this, and
indeed not just the American people, the whole world, people worldwide.
This is global. Yeah, it certainly is. It makes me
(18:49):
wonder when will they deem us ready? And I feel like, also,
what is the reaction going to be? Do you think
people will feel at peace? Are just pure panic or
maybe a little bit of both. Do you think it's
really gonna disrupt the sense of self spiritually? Because that's
my theory, is that it's gonna really disrupt kind of
(19:11):
like biblical and religious like religious beliefs. If there's this
whole world and other people and maybe we're not the
center of the universe and we're not the only ones.
And to me, that's my theory of theory of why
this has been kept kind of hush hush and is
fringe and it's kind of a little crazy if you
talk about it. I think there's a whole a lot
(19:34):
of different things there too to unpack. I mean, certainly,
one sense, every aspect of our lives will change, politics, religion, economics,
science and technology, and one's personal paradigm and worldview. I mean,
just everyone's view of who they are and how they
(19:55):
fit in to the world. And if we get this
to the wider cause marks. On the other hand, the
flip side is people still need to go to work
and go to school, maybe virtually these days, but you
know um in person too, and and life has to
(20:16):
go on. It has to so in one way, we
just have to incorporate this new reality into our lives.
And it's funny you mentioned the church, needless to say,
and religion. I've been to a couple of scientific conferences
on this. It goes I think without saying that. Almost
the biggest row was about how religions are going to
(20:39):
incorporate this into their doctrine. But finally enough they are
thinking about it already. And the Catholic Church already has
a line on this. So what is it? Is Jesus alien?
Is Jesus an alien? Well maybe, but there their line,
their line, I'm serious. Their lying is that there is
(21:00):
no doctrinal objection to the existence of extraterrestrial life because
human beings may place no creative limits upon God, and
therefore it becomes God's call as to whether to make
just Earth or whether to make trillions of other civilizations.
(21:23):
That doesn't mean that it won't be controversial. It will
be well, that's going to be great. I feel like
that's really reassuring news because for people that follow the
Catholic Church staunchly and it is really a part of
their life, a huge part of their life, then just
tell us already. If they haven't figured out, then let's go.
(21:45):
But I think the other religions, even though they haven't
been quite as vocal about it, I'm sure they're thinking
about it too, because otherwise the danger is people look
back to the Middle Ages and and I guess the Renaissance,
the rise of of modern science, and people remember, of
course the Titanic clash between science and religion, and in
(22:08):
one sense, religion got left behind, and and I suppose
they want to be a bit smarter about it this
time around. So I'm sure they're all thinking about it.
But you know, it goes back to this point, what
are we actually going to be dealing with? Are we
going to be dealing with picking up a message through
a radio telescope from a civilization that might have gone extinct.
(22:31):
Are we going to be talking about face to face contact.
If we are, is it going to be friendly or not?
And so the reaction is going to depend on that.
And yes, of course, I guess if we had literally
an alien invasion, people would panic and run for the hills.
But if we have someone extending the hand or tentacle
(22:53):
of friendship, then the tentacle of friendship, Oh my god,
I love it. Go on. I just like, I'm like
so into this. The other point is that we may
well be dealing with machine intelligence, of course, and that
raises a whole bunch of other questions about you mentioned
(23:14):
right at the beginning, almost like the existential view that
you'd have to take you if we encountered machine intelligence,
we'd very quickly have to get into a real, big,
deep debate about the nature of consciousness. Well, I think
we're kind of in that state already as well. I
think it's happening with right now. I have like seven
(23:36):
screens and then they have screens, and I can like,
we are basically holograms of each other in real time.
And I don't even know where you are right now,
but we are speaking face to face and we're reacting
to each other. And that still blows my mind. So
I think that the consciousness of like an Alexa or
(23:59):
whoever that the lady is on your phone, I forget
her name, sorry lady, but the theory. Yes, so Sirie
like that is something that we refer to as a
humans name, and the information is all coming from this
tiny little thing that goes with me everywhere and listens
to everything I'm doing. We're kind of already there. We're
(24:21):
kind of already like part robot. If you take your
phone everywhere and sleep next to it and it helps
track your sleep cycles and tells you wouldn't go and
where to go and how to get there. We're kind
of already in going in that direction. Yes, And then
of course it raises those deep philosophical questions like is
(24:43):
it and could it ever be self aware as as
a machine as artificial intelligence or is it just going
to do a very good simulation of being self aware?
And firstly, how could we ever know for sure whether
it was whether it was truly sentient or just doing
(25:06):
a very good job of looking like it. And secondly
would it matter? And there are people getting into these
whole issues of well, at what point do we have
to sit down and say do we give some rights
to machine intelligence computer programs AI? Because what about their
(25:27):
right to exist? If even if we create them, what
about then their right to exist independently? So it's it's
really deep heavy. Oh my god, that's that's tripping my
brain out. I think you just like jumbled my brain.
So the artificial intelligence would have its own rights to
exist because we created it. So we're also playing guard
(25:50):
a little as well. Yes, and if we can't be
sure that it's not truly self aware, maybe not now,
but maybe in five ten years time. But some would
say maybe now. If we can't truly be sure, shouldn't
we er on the side of caution and assuming that
it is alive before we blithely decide to delete the program? Yes,
(26:15):
I guess that brings into question how do you define
if something is truly alive or not? Well, the great
computer pioneer Alan Turing had something called the Turing test,
which was basically hooking a person up to a computer
and another person and you wouldn't know who was in
which room. And Turing said, if you get to the
(26:36):
point where you can't tell the difference, that's crossed the line. Now,
I don't know whether that's the way it will be
done or not. But and then then there's the classic
old sci fi story about the scientists who build the
the really really powerful computer and they switch it on
and they all scrambled to ask the first question, and
(26:59):
one of the scientists said, my question is is there
a God? And the computer says yes there is now
Oh damn sassy computer, but also true. So crazy. I like,
I know this movie came out when I was like five,
and I should have seen it, and it's like a
(27:20):
landmark movie about this. But I just saw the Matrix
and I have to say, being in quarantine, I don't
know if it was just that, but with all this
stuff going on where I'm just slowly starting to hear
about extraterrestrial things and life being a simulation, I'm just like, existentially,
my hands are up and I'm like, someone just like,
(27:41):
let me know what's real, because all of this is
making me feel like I'm on a bad acid trip. Well,
simulation theory is is absolutely quite um topical at the moment,
and it links in with I mean, some people think
they I think the seminal paper date back some years
and it's it says, yeah, this is all a simulation,
(28:04):
and we're ancestor simulations because at some point um any
civilization that sufficiently advanced would want to create and bring
back to life it's it's ancestors, and statistically there's a
bigger chance that you are an ancestor program than an
actual individual. I know I am an ancestor to who,
(28:31):
to somebody who has created this simulation. We just think
that we're living now and and actually we're not. There
are There are quite a lot of papers out there
about this simulation theory, but another just bringing it back
to UFOs and aliens. Of course, there's a related idea
that planet Earth and maybe the universe as we perceive it,
(28:56):
is itself just an extraterrestrial simulation that we are someone's science.
Hold on, wait, so the whole thing is a simulation
created by an extraterrestrial So we're like, do you know
what sea monkeys are? Yes? Those like little you get
(29:18):
like a bag and you put it, So we like
might just be like sea monkeys. Yeah, and do extras.
We might be somebody's I mean, maybe it's organic, maybe
we are someone's chemistry experiment. But if we're if it's
simulation theory, then maybe we're someone's computer experiment. I mean,
(29:38):
this is all pretty much unknowable, except people then say
that when we begin to outgrow the program, or when
we begin to twig that yeah, maybe this is simulation
in a sense. That's the point where they don't bother
hiding it anymore, and strange things start to happen in
(30:02):
the matrix. So some really weird things would happen, like
the whole world would suddenly shut down, and people wouldn't
go to work, and things that you would have said
would be crazier a couple of years ago suddenly start
to happen. And yet I ask myself, are we not
now living in that very world? Well, then what do
(30:22):
you do? Once you just like see it and it
blows your mind and you're like, okay, I'm freaked out.
I don't know what's happening. And then, like you said
this earlier, but like you've still got to go to work,
you still got to go to school. But then I'm like,
why funck work, Fuck school. I'm going to the beach
and I'm going to be naked. Go for it. I
(30:44):
think that's the thing. Live your life. I mean, yeah, sure,
be good to other people and follow the laws and things,
but have people. I mean, look, whether it doesn't matter,
does it, You know, it doesn't whether this is true
or not. If you go through life, and you learn
along the way, you do some good things for other people,
(31:06):
but also, let's not forget this, you have some fun yourself,
then that's not a bad philosophy, whether we're in a
simulation or whether all this is completely wrong and reality
is just boring, all true preach. I want to join
your cult. Love that. I think it's so important to
(31:27):
have fun, Like life can get just so heavy and depressing,
and I think one of the most important things is
to play like an animal, like the animals do, and
not forget that we're animals and always engage in playing.
So I basically have devoted the entirety of my life
to facilitating dance parties because I feel like that's a
(31:50):
very acceptable human way to play and have fun. So
what you're saying resonates deep inside me, like dedicated my
entire life to it. My only question is if I
am a simulation of a simulation, and I'm a sea
monkey of some alien somewhere, then why does my body
(32:11):
hurt so much? Well, there are always going to be
glitches and matrix. The glitch on my whole side, my
whole life side, is a giant glitch. I think, Well,
it's either that or it's a kind of realism program.
I think it was the classic sci fi author Frank
Herbert who said real boats rock in one of his books,
(32:35):
one of his Yes, oh is it like from doing
the movie The Lynchian. I love that movie. It's so good, Um,
go on, so real boats rock. So it's like you
have to take the good with the bad in the
simulation or it's not going to feel real. Yes. Um.
And that brings us in a sense to well, the pandemic.
(32:58):
I know that's not what we can't talk about. Whatever
you want. I just wanted to talk to you because
you seem interesting. Well, but it goes, it goes back
to the point. There's a saying that I've heard a
lot right now, you've probably heard it too. A lot
of people are saying after the Black Death came the Renaissance,
and after the Spanish Flu came the Roaring twenties. So
(33:23):
it's like, in a sense, it's it's that philosophical concept
that to to appreciate the good, you have to experience
and and move through the bad. So the light like
it's always darkest before the dawn. It's also a saying
that comes to my it's actually right. I wrote that
down last night. I had a dream about that. Um,
(33:46):
I was trying to figure out if it really is
always the darkest right before the dawn. I don't know
from like a scientific standpoint if that's true. Probably not,
But I think the principle holds that that we are
at the moment going through dark days. But when everything
comes back, we will be literally in the new roaring twenties,
(34:08):
and all the things that you mentioned dance and music
and and fun will come to the four in a
way that perhaps before we'd forgotten. We we've forgotten how
good these things were, and I think we're going to
rediscover aspects of our lives that that we took for
a million percent. You took the words out of my mouth.
(34:30):
There are so many things that I personally get to experience,
and I always loved it, but I do think there's
an element when it gets taken away from you. You
realize what you had so fast and how much you
love it so much. And I cannot wait to go
and like hug and kiss people. Oh my god, I
(34:53):
want to fly on an airplane again. Holy sh it.
I used to fly almost every single day for a
couple of of my life, like I would be on
a different flight every single day. So when that happens
to you seven hundred times in a row, by the
seven hundred flight, you forget how fucking amazing that is. Yeah,
(35:13):
when you're when you're sitting up there and somebody gives
you that little flutive whatever, I did not drink it.
I was like, I'm on a plane every day. I
can't drink the champagne every day. I'm drinking the damn
champagne every single time I get on a plane here
on out. Sorry everybody, but I'm going to be that
lady me too. All aircraft are like all airports. They're
(35:37):
on international time, where it's flight o'clock somewhere, and absolutely,
I mean I've only I was like you, I used to,
probably not quite as much, but I used to before
the pandemic. Probably fly, I don't know, you often once
a week somewhere, a conference, a convention, filming, whatever it is.
(35:58):
Um I've seen. I mean, in the last few months,
I've probably only taken half a dozen flights. And of
course it's not the it's not the same, but it
will come back, inevitably, it will come back. I love
hearing you say that, and we just met, but I'm
going to believe you. I'm gonna choose to believe that
your simulation is telling me the truth. It will come back.
(36:20):
It has to come back. Everything is cyclical and everything
the constant. Everything seems to be changed. So we're going
through a change and hopefully cyclically it will come back
to some roaring future ship. That's really amazing. But I'm like,
I'm totally digressed from my question. So wait, there's something
(36:46):
I gonna ask you. Um, So, okay, I think I
kind of already asked you this. As the Ministry of
Defenses head of the UFO project, what would like a
day look like, like did you get to touch and
see and go to sits and like did you get
(37:08):
to see the really like crazy ship. Sadly, we didn't
have as some of the conspiracy theories think we do.
We didn't I promise you have a crashed UFO hidden
away in an Air Force hangar somewhere. So most of
the time, sadly, it wasn't quite like you see on
the X Files, like running around in the the dark
(37:31):
warehouse with the flashlights and all that. It was much more.
You get a report that comes in, you speak to
the witness, usually just over the phone you have because
this is government, because it's a bureaucracy. Of course you've
got a form for it. I know it sounds crazy,
but we inherited the old United States Air Force Project
(37:55):
Bluebook forms. We used the same templates, so we would
get all them, all the details, and then basically the
typical day it would then be doing an investigation. So
you would try and you would have literally a big
map of the United Kingdom on our office wall, and
(38:15):
you would go to that map and say right where
and when did this person see it? And you would
see what was going on, and you would have all
the information about all the military exercises and the civilian
flight paths and weather balloon launches and the satellite tracks.
And then we would speak to the radar people and
(38:36):
we would say check the radar tapes, what have you got?
Then if we had photos and videos, we would go
to the intelligence community imagery analysis people and say what
do you make of this? And then we we would
we have like for example, the Ballistic Missile Early Warning
(38:57):
Center that has space tracking radar are so that gives
you another aspect. So the day to day job. It's
it's a great cliche. There was no typical day, but
but the sightings would be the most important thing. So
it's like process of elimination, of taking out all of
(39:19):
the factors that could be mistakenly a UFO. So you're
like weeding out all the things that could be okay.
So have you ever gotten to the point where you
like get a photo or a video, you weed out everything.
You talk to the radar and there's just something that
like nobody can make like can makeup Like they're just like, okay,
(39:43):
this this we don't know how to explain this. Yes,
a handful of cases each year, but you're right, it
is like a process of elimination, and it happens exactly
the way you said. You go through the sightings, you
do the investigations, and at the end of it all
you go, oh, yeah, that these ones were aircraft, these
(40:03):
ones were satellites, these ones were fire lanterns, these ones
were meat yours. And then you are left at the
end with this this small percentage, this this small number
each year that you think, well that that is whatever
you call it. It's the core phenomenon, the ones that
(40:25):
you can't explain but in a way, that's that's the
ultimate irony of government UFO research. Unless we did get
our hands literally on a crash, sorcer or something. You're
left with a situation where I can tell you what
the UFOs weren't, but I can't tell you what they are.
(40:45):
So so all I can say is at the end
of it is, yeah, we've got a few percentage points
of these each year that we can't explain. I can't
prove to you that they're alien, but but neither can
I rule out that possibility. And those are the cases,
for example, where the pilots report speeds and maneuvers and
(41:09):
accelerations that we can't match, validated on radar, filmed on
forward looking in for red camera, But you can't say
with a hundred degrees certainty it's alien. All you can
say is we can okay. So in that moment when
you have some just crazy thing, you've ruled out everything,
(41:30):
and you're like, we have video or footage, we don't
know what it is. Do countries communicate with each other
and be like, is this you guys? Or does it
not work like that? I would just think as a
as the world that we live in it's obviously very fragmented,
and we like to be like us versus them, and
(41:52):
we do that a lot as people. It seems like
this would be an arena that would really be useful
for coming together to I now, if this is any
of our stuff, or if it's me maybe like an alien.
People don't talk to each other about this internationally as
much as they should. A lot of people say that
(42:12):
the United Nations should be taking a role. They don't
particularly want it, but yeah, you would think you would
hope that the first thing you would do is is say,
if it's the United States, say hey, over the border
in Canada, do you know about this? Was was any
of this you? Or or even if not, what about
(42:36):
your radar systems? Can have you picked up something we might?
There's not sharing them people that people don't and the problem, well,
that doesn't make any sense to me. Well, I think
the problem is that so many countries in bed their
UFO programs in the military and specifically in military intelligence,
(42:59):
and it's just if you're going to put these programs
in the most secret part of government you can find.
In one sense, it's no surprise that they don't talk
to each other because it's hardwired into these people not
to exchange information. I mean, without getting into a whole
another conspiracy, but one of the big whatever you think
(43:22):
about it, one of the big things that happened on
nine eleven or other didn't happen on nine eleven, is
that c I, A, and FBI didn't talk to each
other and they still don't as much as they don't
speak to each other. That's like, is that the part
of the conspiracy theory or is that fact? They're like
known fact, it's fact. No, all intelligence organizations see themselves
(43:48):
to some extent as being in competition with each other
for resources, for influence, for prestige, and all. So just
the inherently secretive nature of this highly classified, deeply compartmentalized
(44:08):
whether it's UFOs or whether it's anything, they don't talk
to each other as much as they should, and so
it is a failing. But it's not a failing that's
unique to UFOs. They see what you mean, at least
with allies, you would you would think that certainly. And
there are mechanisms, there are organizations and agreements, for example,
(44:31):
the Five Eyes when when you get that state, but
it's it's like a grouping of nations. So, for example,
there is information sharing between the United States and the
United Kingdom and some other countries to like Australia, New Zealand, Canada.
People people do talk to each other, but even within
(44:54):
those organizations and those agreements, they still don't talk as
much as they should. That's just you have me thinking
about all all the things. I think you broke my
brain when you're talking about us in our universe being
part of uh maybe an alien thing. I think I
(45:18):
think you officially broke my brain. I thought quarantine had
already broken it, but I think you did this conversation officially.
But what I'm hearing is past resentments and being dishonest
and secretive seems like it's the nature of mankind, but
(45:39):
also might be keeping us back from being able to
excel and expand our consciousness. That's my big theory of
our conversation. That's what my I would say from our conversation. Well,
it goes back to what Hyama said said in terms
of there's a galactic federation out there, but but humanity
(46:04):
isn't yet ready to join it, and he didn't elaborate
on what exactly that means. But if there is a
galactic federation. A very interesting question is what's the trigger
point for getting asked to join it? Um Star Trek
(46:25):
the Star Trek franchise have their trigger point, and that
trigger point is when a civilization develops a warp drive technology.
So it's a technological threshold that you have to cross
to to get that invitation to join the club. But
maybe there are issues of morality as well. So for example,
(46:50):
I don't know the day on which no child dies
of starvation while others throw away food. Maybe that's the
day that the comes. We have a lot to sort out,
I think. But now that I'm thinking about, like just
tell us, but maybe we do have a lot to
sort up before we can actually wrap our brains around
(47:13):
other forms of life, because on the chance that they
are conscious and evolved and moral, we still have a
lot of fixing of our own set of morals to
do here. Like, as you just said, people are starving
to death, and there's just foundational racism and everything, and
(47:35):
everyone is just so afraid to talk about stuff like
you're saying, even just between nations to share information because
you want the power, the prestige or the money or
whatever it is. I think once we all kind of realize,
like we're all human, so we've all fucked up. Okay,
so there's that. But once you just share, then maybe
(47:58):
there's a little bit less of an need to be
better than or feel less than, like validated or invalidated.
One could just be. And I think if we could
be as a species, maybe then we will be able
to coexist with another species or extraterrestrial life or whatever.
(48:19):
It is. Just that's my like hippie nature punk dream
as I just wish everybody would realize we're all the same,
because once you tell your secret and I tell my secret,
it's like, oh, you did that crazy thing? Why did
this crazy fucked up thing? And then kind of like
I feel so much better. No, I get that. And
you know, one other point with with this is maybe
(48:41):
there comes a time when just talking about about this
threshold that to really advanced civilizations in the universe, the
newly emerging ones like us might be the last interesting
thing for them. So the moment they do come down
and land on the White House lawn is moment that
our cultural uniqueness as a planet disappears, and maybe they
(49:07):
want to hang onto that for a while at least
until at least until we do get out there ourselves,
when when you can't keep a lid on it anymore.
But for the time being, maybe they want to see
how things developed, to see what cultural uniqueness will come
up with. And you know, one other point on UFO secrecy,
(49:29):
even among allies, even between friendly nations, I think, if
there is extraterrestrial technology out there, let's not kid ourselves,
the nation that first acquires it is going to be
top dog. So that's a that's a big thing, and
(49:49):
that might explain some of the secrecy. But so why
I feel like I'm not going to name any names here,
but I feel like there are particular leaders that would
like be scrambling to be the first one to do that,
even if they don't know anything, at least claim it,
because then it would give you this legacy, Oh my god,
(50:10):
the legacy. Yeah, you get to write your name in history,
which is one of the Actually that's one of the
skeptical arguments of course about UFOs, because if if we
did know this with a hundred degrees certainty, with some
of the presidents we've had, you would think that even
just on their last day as the ultimate monkey ranch.
(50:32):
They would say, by the way, before I go, there's
aliens for sure. I'm surprised that didn't happen very recently. Ah, well,
that's all very mind boggling. There was a forest I
was reading about that you have written a book about.
I don't want to but for the name what Okay
(50:56):
Randolsham Forest and that was it seems like the Kay
equivalent to Roswell here where there's like a crush site,
a lot of interest around it. I personally am obsessed
with Area fifty one and Roswell been there many times?
Have you gone there and have you like? Was there
(51:17):
any debris? That's what I have to know, if there's
any debris. I know there were trees that were smashed,
but I have to know if there was any body,
fluid metal, anything at all? Or am I not allowed
to know? Is this classified information? No? You you you
are allowed to know. The sad news is that well, firstly,
(51:38):
this happened some years before I joined the Ministry of Defense,
so it was one of my predecessors who did the
investigation on this. But it wasn't Actually it was a
landing and not a crash, so there wasn't any debris.
But what there was, and this is confirmed in a
file on the incident that the Ministry Defense is now
(51:59):
declass scified and released what there was. As well as
those burn marks and scorch marks on the trees um
there there were levels of radioactivity that seemed significantly higher
than the average background levels by by a factor of
about six times six six to seven times higher. So
(52:22):
there was physical trace evidence and radar too, But again, sadly,
we didn't quite get that smoking gun. But I've been there.
I mean, like I said, it happened after my time,
but I've been there since, mainly to do TV shows
and things. And I've also been to Roswell and and
(52:44):
to area fifty one, well not to it, right up
to the line, right up to the line. Fascinating places
and I think anyone that gets the chance should go
to these places. But you there's not necessarily much to
see any more. I'm so sad. I want to know
where these things are kept. I just want to know
(53:06):
if anyone has seen a piece of a spaceship. Some
people say that this debris exists, and there's a lot
of talk at the moment about so called meta materials,
materials with very strange properties, different quisotopic ratios, different chemical
(53:31):
structures um. At the moment, we've got a lot of
talk and allegations, we haven't yet physically got our hands
on things. But it goes back to what the Senate
Intelligence Committee said that they want from Director of National Intelligence.
(53:51):
The first thing they want is to know within the
US government, look, people who knows what, who's got files
on this? What you all doing, and let's see what
we already know about this and if part of that
debris bring it on. Yes, I wish everybody would just
call a truce for like twenty four hours and be like, okay,
(54:14):
truce on everything. Let's just take a time out and
share the information we have on UFOs and then obviously
tell me absolutely can tell me there is okay. I
have like a couple of real stupid questions because we're
(54:35):
like almost out of time. Feel free to be like, no,
but there is one I kind of want to ask you.
But this is just like a silly question, is there?
Do you have a like a favorite conspiracy theory and
you have a least favorite one that like drives you nuts.
I think my least favorite is that we didn't get
(54:55):
to the Moon, because I've met at least one of
the astronauts who did go there, edgar Mitchell, and all
these people I think are very brave, truthful, honorable people,
and the skills and the skills of the scientists and
the engineers. I think it's disparaging to those people there
(55:18):
there ability their bravery to say that we didn't go,
and I think there's a whole bunch of really really
good evidence to say that we did, including the moon
rocks which are different in terms of isotopic ratios and things,
and heck, they even left Basically, they left a giant
mirror on the Moon so that you can fire a
(55:39):
laser at it and measure the distance that you know,
because of the time it takes the light to come back,
but we love to mirror on the Moon to shoot
lasers at. Yes, it's it's called the did you this?
I think it's technically called the Laser Reflector Experiment or
something like that, but it is. It is basically a mirror.
(56:01):
We left a mirror on the Moon, and like pretty
observatories that you know, anyone that's got a sufficiently powerful
and accurate laser can fire it. And obviously it wouldn't
come back if we didn't go up there and leave
the thing there on the first place. That's my least favorite.
What are we shooting lasers adding for? Firstly, one of
(56:24):
the big reasons is to measure down to the sort
of nano millimeter the distance between the Earth and the Moon,
and that distance is changing ever so slightly every every
year the Moon drifts a little bit further away from
the Earth, and scientists like to measure those sorts of things.
(56:47):
So that's that's one reason. But if I'm being honest,
I honestly think the other reason then it's just to
prove that they went there in the first place so
that you can do this experiment. Well, I mean, a
lot of people give these astronauts ship and like have
made a whole thing out of it. So maybe it's
good they left their little laser mirror up there because
(57:09):
I didn't know about it. I'm gonna tell everybody I
know about the mirror, the laser mirror, and I don't know.
I don't know that I particularly have a favorite. Um
maybe it's I don't know, lizards, Um, just lizards, not
lizard people, just lizards. Oh man, Okay, do you have
(57:31):
like a wildest conspiracy theory that you ever heard, and
you're like, wow, that is such crazy bullshit. Yes, the
false flag alien invasion theory. I don't know this one. Okay.
This is the theory that there aren't any aliens, or
that if there are, the government is going to make
(57:54):
some fake aliens. And basically what they're gonna do is
through a combination of hologram technology and Hollywood special effects.
They aren't going to fake an alien invasion so that
they can unite the world under a new World Order
(58:16):
to fight this threat that in reality doesn't really exist.
It's all a con So the false flag alien invasion, Wow,
I would have never thought of that, because people have
a lot of time. I just think we should all
be friends and stop killing each other and share a
UFO information. So then maybe the aliens can come and
(58:39):
we can hang out with them. That would be good
party on fuck. Yes, that is how we are ending
this interview party on Intergalactically. Thank you so much for
coming on here. It is so fascinating to talk with you.
I'm going to try to get your email or something
because I have like five million more questions. Thank you
(59:02):
everybody listening um, if you would like to shamelessly promote yourself,
go ahead. Where do people find you? How did they
find you? What do they I have a website, Nick
Pope dot net that links to my social media, but
the one I use most, particularly for fast last stories,
is Twitter, where I am Nick Pope, m O d
(59:25):
okay perfect Follow him. Thank you for listening, keep on
creeping on. Thank you, Nick, It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
Actually it was a landing and not a crash, so
there wasn't any debris. But what there was, and this
is confirmed in a file on the incident that the
Ministry Defense has now declassified and released what there was.
As well as those burn marks and scorch marks on
the trees, there were levels of radioactivity that seemed significantly
(00:23):
higher than the average background levels. Welcome back to Catch
in the Creepies Today, we welcome Nick Pope. Thank you
(00:46):
so much for coming on my podcast. Hi, Hi there.
Now I don't know how to pronounce this correctly, so
I'm going to just stab at it a you apologist, yes,
although I guess one who did this not as a
hobby but as a government job. So I don't really
call myself a uthologist as opposed to government official who
(01:07):
happened to be lucky enough to be given this amazing
real life X files gig. But that sounds so I
just like have so many questions, how did you get
into that? Is it something you're interested in or did
it volunteer? Lap? It completely fell in my lap. I
was already in the Ministry of Defense and just the
(01:28):
vacancy happened to come up at the exact moment that
I was due for a move, so it was just
right place, right time. But I had no previous interest
in this subject, no background knowledge, no particular beliefs. It
was just I know, this sounds crazy. It was just
another government job. Are there other crazy government jobs we
(01:50):
don't know about that? Are like people that studying ghosts
in the government. Well, they were certainly in the US
government for example, they had a program also looking at UFOs,
as we did in the UK, but also they did
get into so called remote viewing, which is just a
(02:10):
kind of fancy scientific term for psychic stuff. So yeah,
they have been looking at this. And just recently there
was an article I saw it on the BBC News
website talking about things like super soldiers and saying that
a lot of these things that people have been talking
about in terms of sci fi somewhere people are working
(02:31):
on this, Like robot soldiers were a bit of both.
Part of it is absolutely combat robots. And there's a
big debate going on right now about whether there's always
going to be a human in the decision making chain,
particularly if it comes to lethal force. US and UK
governments and some others have said, yeah, there should be
(02:53):
other governments are a little less constrained by those sorts
of legal and ethical and more. All. That's so scary. Yeah,
but part of it, part of this whole super soldier thing,
is human augmentation. And again there was a big article
making some allegations about what what China might be doing
(03:14):
in that regions. So so there's a lot going on
right now that's so terrifying. Okay, So back to the
that you were in the Ministry of Defense in the
UK and you're doing some other job and all of
a sudden a job opens up studying the extraterrestrial activity
(03:38):
or UFOs or we we would just say UFOs or.
In fact, we coined the phrase. We didn't invent it,
but we popularized it U a P. Unidentified aerial phenomena.
And that's now if you look at what's happening recently
with all these stories that I'm sure you've seen about
the U. S. Navy jets chain seeing the phenomenon, they
(04:02):
always used the phrase U a P. So it's the
term that we use in government, in military and the
intelligence community. And we to speak to your point about
extraterrestrial we didn't go in saying well, we didn't really
go in with any preconceived ideas. We just said, if
there's something in our air space, we need to know
(04:24):
what it is because it's automatically a defense a national
security issue. It might be the Russians, it might be
our own technology, some deep black program, or it might
be extraterrestrial. So we went in with an open mind
and just said, let's do the investigations and see what
the data show us. So you go in, are you excited,
(04:46):
are you skeptical, are you nervous, or you're just kind
of ready for whatever? A little bit of all of that.
I think, Um, I'm skeptical, absolutely, but I can't help
but be a cited. It's one of the great sayings
that this subject that the skeptics have to be right
every day, but the believers only have to be right once.
(05:09):
And we're really in the ultimate game changing territory. So
I went in never knowing is the phone going to ring?
Am I going to get the case? The thing that's
going to break this wide open? How? How is it
going to go down? Oh? My god? How long did
you serve at the Ministry at Defense? Twenty one years
(05:30):
in all, but only three years on their UFO program
because you get moved around every few years, either on
level transfer or promotions. So I did a lot of
different things in my twenty one year career. But I
think even now looking back, UFOs has got to be
the most interesting and fun in its way and most profound.
(05:55):
I mean to me, as soon as I think of
extraterrestrial life, then I think of the point of life
and the universe and spirituality and who are we and
why are we here? It just goes so existential so
quickly once you bring in extraterrestrial conversations. And I think
that for me, I've seen some weird things, but like
(06:17):
you said, like I'm not a total conspiracy theory person.
I realized that it could have been someone testing something
or just something I didn't really understand. But I did
see fireballs in the sky and they went away and
then they came back in a different formation. And ever
since I saw it, I've just been completely fascinated with
(06:38):
what we actually know, and what governments know, and what
the science behind it is. I think there's a quote
from me that really stuck out. He said, I strongly
suspect there's life elsewhere in the cosmos, because from observational data,
the laws of physics and the laws of chemistry appeared
to be constant throughout the observable universe. So and less
(07:00):
you believe there's something almost literally magical about Earth, the
same factors that gave rise to life here are likely
to have arisen elsewhere. So for me, that's like summing
it all up. If you believe in science, then it
makes scientific end in the laws of chemistry and physics
(07:20):
for there to be life elsewhere. I think so, yes,
And there was a scientific study just done last year,
I believe, and it came out with this statistic and
it sounded like a low number because they said, we
estimate there might be thirty six civilizations in our Milky
(07:42):
Way galaxy. And that doesn't sound like very many until
you do the math and realize, and I did. I
got out of my calculator and I thought, wait a minute,
Given the number of galaxies they estimate there are in
the universe, that means there might be seventy two trillions
civilization's out there. So it's just mind blowing. So you
(08:04):
can't really say whether or not it would be a
positive or a negative experience with an extraterrestrial because you
don't really know who you're dealing with. I would assume
it would be like any creature where there are some
that are a little nicer than others. Well, I think
it's going to be a spectrum. Yes, if people often
say to me, what do you think the aliens alike?
(08:26):
As if there is just one other civilization in the universe,
And like I just said, with those statistics, chances are
there's a whole bunch of these people out there, and
in which case your point is absolutely the way it
would be. Chances are there's a spectrum, and you know
statistically you're usually in the middle of it. So you
(08:48):
walk into a room, for example, you are usually not
going to be the tallest person or the shortest, or
you will be in the middle. So same with the civilizations.
They're will be many, many more advanced than us, and
others less advanced and morally too. Simply put, there'll be
good aliens and bad aliens and naughty aliens, as there's
(09:13):
probably all different kinds of aliens. I never even thought
about it like that because there's this quintessential picture of
the alien with the head and the gray the gray aliens.
But there was a guy who lived in my mom's basement,
and I'm gonna full disclosure. He was a little cookie.
He's a cookie man. But his name is Carl, and
(09:34):
he told me that JFK was assassinated because he was
going to tell the world about extra trustrial life. They
gave us they as in the extraterrestrials, gave us velcro
and microwaves and on and on and on. So to me,
it's like a little bit confusing because there were some
points Carl made that were pretty impressive. But then I
(09:57):
don't want to dip my toe into conspiracy theory culture either,
because I think that's dangerous. Yeah, I'm not saying that
all conspiracy theories are wrong. I mean I think history
shows us some turn out to be right. And in
relation to UFOs, yeah, I've heard those sorts of stories
about JFK. And I've heard heard a version of that
(10:19):
theory that brings in Marilyn Monroe as well and says
that because they were just tell me, because I want
to know, I have to know, Just tell me. Well,
he talk so, and the theory goes JFK. Let's let's
slip to Maryland that yeah, it's all true. They are aliens.
She was going to disclose that, so they bumped her off,
(10:42):
and then JFK said I'm going to disclose it, and
they bumped him off. I don't believe that. I think
it's a little bit, a little bit though, Oh my god,
I think it's a little bit far out there. But
I suppose it wouldn't be the first time that a
long shot has come in. But I prefer with my
government background, I prefer to ground myself in the sorts
(11:06):
of things that are unfolding. Now. I mentioned those US
Navy videos, but where you've got pilots coming out with this,
where you've got the radar evidence, where you've got classified
briefings in Congress, Yes, yeah, as has been announced very recently.
Senate Intelligence Committee have asked for a report on this
(11:26):
from Director of National Intelligence. So, whatever you think about
some of the more far out stories, all this is
happening here and now. As a matter of on the
record fact, do you think that we're in the age
of potential soon disclosure of this information or do you
think every every ten years people think it's coming and
(11:48):
it just doesn't actually get disclosed from the government. I
think we are further forward than we've ever been, and
I think this Senate Intelligence Committee initiative is going to
certainly move things forward again. But whether we cross the line.
I mean, the UFO community have this concept of disclosure
(12:10):
with a big D and in their mind's eye, it's
the President going on the evening news at primetime saying,
my fellow Americans, people of the world, we're not alone.
My take is it might not quite go down that way.
It might be a little bit more subtle, and I
think that's what we're seeing now. But there are congressional
(12:32):
briefings going on behind the scenes. People like Marco Rubio
have gone on the record to say, look, I'd rather
this was Aliens, because if it's Russia or China, we're
in big trouble. They've made a quantum leap that is
so interesting. And I did see Trumpet let a few
things slide that we're just questionable comments about, you know,
(12:57):
extraterrestrials or UFOs and his obsession with the Space Force.
I can't help but think, like, why would you be
so obsessed if there wasn't something else here? And um,
the former Israeli space security chief, I am a shed
I read what he had said about how there's we've
(13:18):
been in contact with extraterrestrials and we have people on
Mars and an underground bunker that are have relationships with extraterrestrials. Like,
how legit do you think that is? Well, that story
really struck me as being far out. Having said that,
the guy is who he says he is. He did
what he said he did in the Israeli space program,
(13:41):
So he's certainly someone who if if this sort of
thing is out there, as he says he is, someone
who would know. Um, I think it's there. There are
some pieces of that particular puzzle that we don't yet have.
But you know, if any of this was happening in isolation,
I think you could write one or two of these
(14:02):
things off. But but it's more than that. In UM.
For example, the Harvard professor Avy Lobe who spoke about
this strange shaped object that came through our solar system
recently Omua Mua and then a former CIA director, John Brannan,
he gave her an interview where he started suddenly talking
(14:24):
about something that might constitute a different form of life.
And when all these people from whether they're CIA people
or space scientists or professors, who government officials, intelligence community
people who've who whoever they are. When they all come
(14:45):
out with broadly the same sort of thing, all pointing
the same direction, it does make me wonder whether there
isn't some sort of orchestrated campaign here too. Well, you
do you tell them that this, I'll tell them that,
and then before we know it will be over that
line and we'll have had disclosure. Well, and I feel
(15:10):
like like you're saying, maybe disclosure isn't a moment in time.
Maybe it is the information slowly coming at us to
the point where it almost becomes normalized. Because that's what
I've found in my life is I started, you know,
I saw something of the New York Times. Then it's
on the Post, and then it's on TMZ. It's kind
of just like everywhere information about extraterrestrials. I spoke to
(15:35):
fellow singer Demiel Vado about it, and it seemingly people
are kind of unphased. And maybe that's the point, is
to become used to that kind of information. It's not
so crazy, it's not just for crazy people, And like,
wha couldus that we're going through the disclosure and we
(15:55):
don't even realize that we're in it. I think that's right.
And you know, three years ago you mentioned the New
York Times. Three years ago, just over three years now,
they ran a big article where they exposed these Navy
videos that that we've mentioned, and also they exposed the
existence of a secret program called a TIP Advanced Aerospace
(16:18):
Threat Identification Program. And the debate about what they did
and didn't do continues to this day, and the Department
of Defense have flip flopped over it quite a bit.
But there's no getting away from the fact that if
you'd have asked the US government three years ago, um,
(16:39):
what's your line on this, their answer would have been
nobody's interested and nobody's investigating. And now look where we are,
Navy pilots, the videos, the congressional briefings, Director of National
Intelligence drawing up a report on this. It's like it's
it's the whole thing has flipped a hundred and eighty degrees,
(17:02):
come out of the the fringe and into the mainstream
in a way that I think would have been inconceivable
three three years ago. Well, it's a lot of people
that have a lot to lose, especially the respect that
I would assume it would take so many years of
hard work and a determined sense of wanting to work
(17:24):
for the government and be of service and help make
the country stable and good. So to me, like I
sing songs, I can sing about aliens, nobody would bat
an eyelash. But there are a lot of people talking
right now have a lot to lose in terms of credibility,
and I can't help but wonder why would they be
(17:46):
sacrificing their credibility unless it was really real. Absolutely. One
of the people who has spoken out recently is a
retired intelligence official called Luis Alizondo, and he was so
highly principled about this that that he resigned from from
(18:06):
the government over this issue. And he said, look, I'm
not a whistleblower. I took an oath and I'm going
to keep that, you know, very seriously and not divulge
classified information. But within you know, there's a line, and
he went cross it. Neither will I. But within that
(18:27):
Louis Alizondo and some other people too who have been
involved in these sorts of programs, some directly, some indirectly,
have said, look, what they want to do is kick
start a conversation with the American people about this, and
indeed not just the American people, the whole world, people worldwide.
This is global. Yeah, it certainly is. It makes me
(18:49):
wonder when will they deem us ready? And I feel like, also,
what is the reaction going to be? Do you think
people will feel at peace? Are just pure panic or
maybe a little bit of both. Do you think it's
really gonna disrupt the sense of self spiritually? Because that's
my theory, is that it's gonna really disrupt kind of
(19:11):
like biblical and religious like religious beliefs. If there's this
whole world and other people and maybe we're not the
center of the universe and we're not the only ones.
And to me, that's my theory of theory of why
this has been kept kind of hush hush and is
fringe and it's kind of a little crazy if you
talk about it. I think there's a whole a lot
(19:34):
of different things there too to unpack. I mean, certainly,
one sense, every aspect of our lives will change, politics, religion, economics,
science and technology, and one's personal paradigm and worldview. I mean,
just everyone's view of who they are and how they
(19:55):
fit in to the world. And if we get this
to the wider cause marks. On the other hand, the
flip side is people still need to go to work
and go to school, maybe virtually these days, but you
know um in person too, and and life has to
(20:16):
go on. It has to so in one way, we
just have to incorporate this new reality into our lives.
And it's funny you mentioned the church, needless to say,
and religion. I've been to a couple of scientific conferences
on this. It goes I think without saying that. Almost
the biggest row was about how religions are going to
(20:39):
incorporate this into their doctrine. But finally enough they are
thinking about it already. And the Catholic Church already has
a line on this. So what is it? Is Jesus alien?
Is Jesus an alien? Well maybe, but there their line,
their line, I'm serious. Their lying is that there is
(21:00):
no doctrinal objection to the existence of extraterrestrial life because
human beings may place no creative limits upon God, and
therefore it becomes God's call as to whether to make
just Earth or whether to make trillions of other civilizations.
(21:23):
That doesn't mean that it won't be controversial. It will
be well, that's going to be great. I feel like
that's really reassuring news because for people that follow the
Catholic Church staunchly and it is really a part of
their life, a huge part of their life, then just
tell us already. If they haven't figured out, then let's go.
(21:45):
But I think the other religions, even though they haven't
been quite as vocal about it, I'm sure they're thinking
about it too, because otherwise the danger is people look
back to the Middle Ages and and I guess the Renaissance,
the rise of of modern science, and people remember, of
course the Titanic clash between science and religion, and in
(22:08):
one sense, religion got left behind, and and I suppose
they want to be a bit smarter about it this
time around. So I'm sure they're all thinking about it.
But you know, it goes back to this point, what
are we actually going to be dealing with? Are we
going to be dealing with picking up a message through
a radio telescope from a civilization that might have gone extinct.
(22:31):
Are we going to be talking about face to face contact.
If we are, is it going to be friendly or not?
And so the reaction is going to depend on that.
And yes, of course, I guess if we had literally
an alien invasion, people would panic and run for the hills.
But if we have someone extending the hand or tentacle
(22:53):
of friendship, then the tentacle of friendship, Oh my god,
I love it. Go on. I just like, I'm like
so into this. The other point is that we may
well be dealing with machine intelligence, of course, and that
raises a whole bunch of other questions about you mentioned
(23:14):
right at the beginning, almost like the existential view that
you'd have to take you if we encountered machine intelligence,
we'd very quickly have to get into a real, big,
deep debate about the nature of consciousness. Well, I think
we're kind of in that state already as well. I
think it's happening with right now. I have like seven
(23:36):
screens and then they have screens, and I can like,
we are basically holograms of each other in real time.
And I don't even know where you are right now,
but we are speaking face to face and we're reacting
to each other. And that still blows my mind. So
I think that the consciousness of like an Alexa or
(23:59):
whoever that the lady is on your phone, I forget
her name, sorry lady, but the theory. Yes, so Sirie
like that is something that we refer to as a
humans name, and the information is all coming from this
tiny little thing that goes with me everywhere and listens
to everything I'm doing. We're kind of already there. We're
(24:21):
kind of already like part robot. If you take your
phone everywhere and sleep next to it and it helps
track your sleep cycles and tells you wouldn't go and
where to go and how to get there. We're kind
of already in going in that direction. Yes, And then
of course it raises those deep philosophical questions like is
(24:43):
it and could it ever be self aware as as
a machine as artificial intelligence or is it just going
to do a very good simulation of being self aware?
And firstly, how could we ever know for sure whether
it was whether it was truly sentient or just doing
(25:06):
a very good job of looking like it. And secondly
would it matter? And there are people getting into these
whole issues of well, at what point do we have
to sit down and say do we give some rights
to machine intelligence computer programs AI? Because what about their
(25:27):
right to exist? If even if we create them, what
about then their right to exist independently? So it's it's
really deep heavy. Oh my god, that's that's tripping my
brain out. I think you just like jumbled my brain.
So the artificial intelligence would have its own rights to
exist because we created it. So we're also playing guard
(25:50):
a little as well. Yes, and if we can't be
sure that it's not truly self aware, maybe not now,
but maybe in five ten years time. But some would
say maybe now. If we can't truly be sure, shouldn't
we er on the side of caution and assuming that
it is alive before we blithely decide to delete the program? Yes,
(26:15):
I guess that brings into question how do you define
if something is truly alive or not? Well, the great
computer pioneer Alan Turing had something called the Turing test,
which was basically hooking a person up to a computer
and another person and you wouldn't know who was in
which room. And Turing said, if you get to the
(26:36):
point where you can't tell the difference, that's crossed the line. Now,
I don't know whether that's the way it will be
done or not. But and then then there's the classic
old sci fi story about the scientists who build the
the really really powerful computer and they switch it on
and they all scrambled to ask the first question, and
(26:59):
one of the scientists said, my question is is there
a God? And the computer says yes there is now
Oh damn sassy computer, but also true. So crazy. I like,
I know this movie came out when I was like five,
and I should have seen it, and it's like a
(27:20):
landmark movie about this. But I just saw the Matrix
and I have to say, being in quarantine, I don't
know if it was just that, but with all this
stuff going on where I'm just slowly starting to hear
about extraterrestrial things and life being a simulation, I'm just like, existentially,
my hands are up and I'm like, someone just like,
(27:41):
let me know what's real, because all of this is
making me feel like I'm on a bad acid trip. Well,
simulation theory is is absolutely quite um topical at the moment,
and it links in with I mean, some people think
they I think the seminal paper date back some years
and it's it says, yeah, this is all a simulation,
(28:04):
and we're ancestor simulations because at some point um any
civilization that sufficiently advanced would want to create and bring
back to life it's it's ancestors, and statistically there's a
bigger chance that you are an ancestor program than an
actual individual. I know I am an ancestor to who,
(28:31):
to somebody who has created this simulation. We just think
that we're living now and and actually we're not. There
are There are quite a lot of papers out there
about this simulation theory, but another just bringing it back
to UFOs and aliens. Of course, there's a related idea
that planet Earth and maybe the universe as we perceive it,
(28:56):
is itself just an extraterrestrial simulation that we are someone's science.
Hold on, wait, so the whole thing is a simulation
created by an extraterrestrial So we're like, do you know
what sea monkeys are? Yes? Those like little you get
(29:18):
like a bag and you put it, So we like
might just be like sea monkeys. Yeah, and do extras.
We might be somebody's I mean, maybe it's organic, maybe
we are someone's chemistry experiment. But if we're if it's
simulation theory, then maybe we're someone's computer experiment. I mean,
(29:38):
this is all pretty much unknowable, except people then say
that when we begin to outgrow the program, or when
we begin to twig that yeah, maybe this is simulation
in a sense. That's the point where they don't bother
hiding it anymore, and strange things start to happen in
(30:02):
the matrix. So some really weird things would happen, like
the whole world would suddenly shut down, and people wouldn't
go to work, and things that you would have said
would be crazier a couple of years ago suddenly start
to happen. And yet I ask myself, are we not
now living in that very world? Well, then what do
(30:22):
you do? Once you just like see it and it
blows your mind and you're like, okay, I'm freaked out.
I don't know what's happening. And then, like you said
this earlier, but like you've still got to go to work,
you still got to go to school. But then I'm like,
why funck work, Fuck school. I'm going to the beach
and I'm going to be naked. Go for it. I
(30:44):
think that's the thing. Live your life. I mean, yeah, sure,
be good to other people and follow the laws and things,
but have people. I mean, look, whether it doesn't matter,
does it, You know, it doesn't whether this is true
or not. If you go through life, and you learn
along the way, you do some good things for other people,
(31:06):
but also, let's not forget this, you have some fun yourself,
then that's not a bad philosophy, whether we're in a
simulation or whether all this is completely wrong and reality
is just boring, all true preach. I want to join
your cult. Love that. I think it's so important to
(31:27):
have fun, Like life can get just so heavy and depressing,
and I think one of the most important things is
to play like an animal, like the animals do, and
not forget that we're animals and always engage in playing.
So I basically have devoted the entirety of my life
to facilitating dance parties because I feel like that's a
(31:50):
very acceptable human way to play and have fun. So
what you're saying resonates deep inside me, like dedicated my
entire life to it. My only question is if I
am a simulation of a simulation, and I'm a sea
monkey of some alien somewhere, then why does my body
(32:11):
hurt so much? Well, there are always going to be
glitches and matrix. The glitch on my whole side, my
whole life side, is a giant glitch. I think, Well,
it's either that or it's a kind of realism program.
I think it was the classic sci fi author Frank
Herbert who said real boats rock in one of his books,
(32:35):
one of his Yes, oh is it like from doing
the movie The Lynchian. I love that movie. It's so good, Um,
go on, so real boats rock. So it's like you
have to take the good with the bad in the
simulation or it's not going to feel real. Yes. Um.
And that brings us in a sense to well, the pandemic.
(32:58):
I know that's not what we can't talk about. Whatever
you want. I just wanted to talk to you because
you seem interesting. Well, but it goes, it goes back
to the point. There's a saying that I've heard a
lot right now, you've probably heard it too. A lot
of people are saying after the Black Death came the Renaissance,
and after the Spanish Flu came the Roaring twenties. So
(33:23):
it's like, in a sense, it's it's that philosophical concept
that to to appreciate the good, you have to experience
and and move through the bad. So the light like
it's always darkest before the dawn. It's also a saying
that comes to my it's actually right. I wrote that
down last night. I had a dream about that. Um,
(33:46):
I was trying to figure out if it really is
always the darkest right before the dawn. I don't know
from like a scientific standpoint if that's true. Probably not,
But I think the principle holds that that we are
at the moment going through dark days. But when everything
comes back, we will be literally in the new roaring twenties,
(34:08):
and all the things that you mentioned dance and music
and and fun will come to the four in a
way that perhaps before we'd forgotten. We we've forgotten how
good these things were, and I think we're going to
rediscover aspects of our lives that that we took for
a million percent. You took the words out of my mouth.
(34:30):
There are so many things that I personally get to experience,
and I always loved it, but I do think there's
an element when it gets taken away from you. You
realize what you had so fast and how much you
love it so much. And I cannot wait to go
and like hug and kiss people. Oh my god, I
(34:53):
want to fly on an airplane again. Holy sh it.
I used to fly almost every single day for a
couple of of my life, like I would be on
a different flight every single day. So when that happens
to you seven hundred times in a row, by the
seven hundred flight, you forget how fucking amazing that is. Yeah,
(35:13):
when you're when you're sitting up there and somebody gives
you that little flutive whatever, I did not drink it.
I was like, I'm on a plane every day. I
can't drink the champagne every day. I'm drinking the damn
champagne every single time I get on a plane here
on out. Sorry everybody, but I'm going to be that
lady me too. All aircraft are like all airports. They're
(35:37):
on international time, where it's flight o'clock somewhere, and absolutely,
I mean I've only I was like you, I used to,
probably not quite as much, but I used to before
the pandemic. Probably fly, I don't know, you often once
a week somewhere, a conference, a convention, filming, whatever it is.
(35:58):
Um I've seen. I mean, in the last few months,
I've probably only taken half a dozen flights. And of
course it's not the it's not the same, but it
will come back, inevitably, it will come back. I love
hearing you say that, and we just met, but I'm
going to believe you. I'm gonna choose to believe that
your simulation is telling me the truth. It will come back.
(36:20):
It has to come back. Everything is cyclical and everything
the constant. Everything seems to be changed. So we're going
through a change and hopefully cyclically it will come back
to some roaring future ship. That's really amazing. But I'm like,
I'm totally digressed from my question. So wait, there's something
(36:46):
I gonna ask you. Um, So, okay, I think I
kind of already asked you this. As the Ministry of
Defenses head of the UFO project, what would like a
day look like, like did you get to touch and
see and go to sits and like did you get
(37:08):
to see the really like crazy ship. Sadly, we didn't
have as some of the conspiracy theories think we do.
We didn't I promise you have a crashed UFO hidden
away in an Air Force hangar somewhere. So most of
the time, sadly, it wasn't quite like you see on
the X Files, like running around in the the dark
(37:31):
warehouse with the flashlights and all that. It was much more.
You get a report that comes in, you speak to
the witness, usually just over the phone you have because
this is government, because it's a bureaucracy. Of course you've
got a form for it. I know it sounds crazy,
but we inherited the old United States Air Force Project
(37:55):
Bluebook forms. We used the same templates, so we would
get all them, all the details, and then basically the
typical day it would then be doing an investigation. So
you would try and you would have literally a big
map of the United Kingdom on our office wall, and
(38:15):
you would go to that map and say right where
and when did this person see it? And you would
see what was going on, and you would have all
the information about all the military exercises and the civilian
flight paths and weather balloon launches and the satellite tracks.
And then we would speak to the radar people and
(38:36):
we would say check the radar tapes, what have you got?
Then if we had photos and videos, we would go
to the intelligence community imagery analysis people and say what
do you make of this? And then we we would
we have like for example, the Ballistic Missile Early Warning
(38:57):
Center that has space tracking radar are so that gives
you another aspect. So the day to day job. It's
it's a great cliche. There was no typical day, but
but the sightings would be the most important thing. So
it's like process of elimination, of taking out all of
(39:19):
the factors that could be mistakenly a UFO. So you're
like weeding out all the things that could be okay.
So have you ever gotten to the point where you
like get a photo or a video, you weed out everything.
You talk to the radar and there's just something that
like nobody can make like can makeup Like they're just like, okay,
(39:43):
this this we don't know how to explain this. Yes,
a handful of cases each year, but you're right, it
is like a process of elimination, and it happens exactly
the way you said. You go through the sightings, you
do the investigations, and at the end of it all
you go, oh, yeah, that these ones were aircraft, these
(40:03):
ones were satellites, these ones were fire lanterns, these ones
were meat yours. And then you are left at the
end with this this small percentage, this this small number
each year that you think, well that that is whatever
you call it. It's the core phenomenon, the ones that
(40:25):
you can't explain but in a way, that's that's the
ultimate irony of government UFO research. Unless we did get
our hands literally on a crash, sorcer or something. You're
left with a situation where I can tell you what
the UFOs weren't, but I can't tell you what they are.
(40:45):
So so all I can say is at the end
of it is, yeah, we've got a few percentage points
of these each year that we can't explain. I can't
prove to you that they're alien, but but neither can
I rule out that possibility. And those are the cases,
for example, where the pilots report speeds and maneuvers and
(41:09):
accelerations that we can't match, validated on radar, filmed on
forward looking in for red camera, But you can't say
with a hundred degrees certainty it's alien. All you can
say is we can okay. So in that moment when
you have some just crazy thing, you've ruled out everything,
(41:30):
and you're like, we have video or footage, we don't
know what it is. Do countries communicate with each other
and be like, is this you guys? Or does it
not work like that? I would just think as a
as the world that we live in it's obviously very fragmented,
and we like to be like us versus them, and
(41:52):
we do that a lot as people. It seems like
this would be an arena that would really be useful
for coming together to I now, if this is any
of our stuff, or if it's me maybe like an alien.
People don't talk to each other about this internationally as
much as they should. A lot of people say that
(42:12):
the United Nations should be taking a role. They don't
particularly want it, but yeah, you would think you would
hope that the first thing you would do is is say,
if it's the United States, say hey, over the border
in Canada, do you know about this? Was was any
of this you? Or or even if not, what about
(42:36):
your radar systems? Can have you picked up something we might?
There's not sharing them people that people don't and the problem, well,
that doesn't make any sense to me. Well, I think
the problem is that so many countries in bed their
UFO programs in the military and specifically in military intelligence,
(42:59):
and it's just if you're going to put these programs
in the most secret part of government you can find.
In one sense, it's no surprise that they don't talk
to each other because it's hardwired into these people not
to exchange information. I mean, without getting into a whole
another conspiracy, but one of the big whatever you think
(43:22):
about it, one of the big things that happened on
nine eleven or other didn't happen on nine eleven, is
that c I, A, and FBI didn't talk to each
other and they still don't as much as they don't
speak to each other. That's like, is that the part
of the conspiracy theory or is that fact? They're like
known fact, it's fact. No, all intelligence organizations see themselves
(43:48):
to some extent as being in competition with each other
for resources, for influence, for prestige, and all. So just
the inherently secretive nature of this highly classified, deeply compartmentalized
(44:08):
whether it's UFOs or whether it's anything, they don't talk
to each other as much as they should, and so
it is a failing. But it's not a failing that's
unique to UFOs. They see what you mean, at least
with allies, you would you would think that certainly. And
there are mechanisms, there are organizations and agreements, for example,
(44:31):
the Five Eyes when when you get that state, but
it's it's like a grouping of nations. So, for example,
there is information sharing between the United States and the
United Kingdom and some other countries to like Australia, New Zealand, Canada.
People people do talk to each other, but even within
(44:54):
those organizations and those agreements, they still don't talk as
much as they should. That's just you have me thinking
about all all the things. I think you broke my
brain when you're talking about us in our universe being
part of uh maybe an alien thing. I think I
(45:18):
think you officially broke my brain. I thought quarantine had
already broken it, but I think you did this conversation officially.
But what I'm hearing is past resentments and being dishonest
and secretive seems like it's the nature of mankind, but
(45:39):
also might be keeping us back from being able to
excel and expand our consciousness. That's my big theory of
our conversation. That's what my I would say from our conversation. Well,
it goes back to what Hyama said said in terms
of there's a galactic federation out there, but but humanity
(46:04):
isn't yet ready to join it, and he didn't elaborate
on what exactly that means. But if there is a
galactic federation. A very interesting question is what's the trigger
point for getting asked to join it? Um Star Trek
(46:25):
the Star Trek franchise have their trigger point, and that
trigger point is when a civilization develops a warp drive technology.
So it's a technological threshold that you have to cross
to to get that invitation to join the club. But
maybe there are issues of morality as well. So for example,
(46:50):
I don't know the day on which no child dies
of starvation while others throw away food. Maybe that's the
day that the comes. We have a lot to sort out,
I think. But now that I'm thinking about, like just
tell us, but maybe we do have a lot to
sort up before we can actually wrap our brains around
(47:13):
other forms of life, because on the chance that they
are conscious and evolved and moral, we still have a
lot of fixing of our own set of morals to
do here. Like, as you just said, people are starving
to death, and there's just foundational racism and everything, and
(47:35):
everyone is just so afraid to talk about stuff like
you're saying, even just between nations to share information because
you want the power, the prestige or the money or
whatever it is. I think once we all kind of realize,
like we're all human, so we've all fucked up. Okay,
so there's that. But once you just share, then maybe
(47:58):
there's a little bit less of an need to be
better than or feel less than, like validated or invalidated.
One could just be. And I think if we could
be as a species, maybe then we will be able
to coexist with another species or extraterrestrial life or whatever.
(48:19):
It is. Just that's my like hippie nature punk dream
as I just wish everybody would realize we're all the same,
because once you tell your secret and I tell my secret,
it's like, oh, you did that crazy thing? Why did
this crazy fucked up thing? And then kind of like
I feel so much better. No, I get that. And
you know, one other point with with this is maybe
(48:41):
there comes a time when just talking about about this
threshold that to really advanced civilizations in the universe, the
newly emerging ones like us might be the last interesting
thing for them. So the moment they do come down
and land on the White House lawn is moment that
our cultural uniqueness as a planet disappears, and maybe they
(49:07):
want to hang onto that for a while at least
until at least until we do get out there ourselves,
when when you can't keep a lid on it anymore.
But for the time being, maybe they want to see
how things developed, to see what cultural uniqueness will come
up with. And you know, one other point on UFO secrecy,
(49:29):
even among allies, even between friendly nations, I think, if
there is extraterrestrial technology out there, let's not kid ourselves,
the nation that first acquires it is going to be
top dog. So that's a that's a big thing, and
(49:49):
that might explain some of the secrecy. But so why
I feel like I'm not going to name any names here,
but I feel like there are particular leaders that would
like be scrambling to be the first one to do that,
even if they don't know anything, at least claim it,
because then it would give you this legacy, Oh my god,
(50:10):
the legacy. Yeah, you get to write your name in history,
which is one of the Actually that's one of the
skeptical arguments of course about UFOs, because if if we
did know this with a hundred degrees certainty, with some
of the presidents we've had, you would think that even
just on their last day as the ultimate monkey ranch.
(50:32):
They would say, by the way, before I go, there's
aliens for sure. I'm surprised that didn't happen very recently. Ah, well,
that's all very mind boggling. There was a forest I
was reading about that you have written a book about.
I don't want to but for the name what Okay
(50:56):
Randolsham Forest and that was it seems like the Kay
equivalent to Roswell here where there's like a crush site,
a lot of interest around it. I personally am obsessed
with Area fifty one and Roswell been there many times?
Have you gone there and have you like? Was there
(51:17):
any debris? That's what I have to know, if there's
any debris. I know there were trees that were smashed,
but I have to know if there was any body,
fluid metal, anything at all? Or am I not allowed
to know? Is this classified information? No? You you you
are allowed to know. The sad news is that well, firstly,
(51:38):
this happened some years before I joined the Ministry of Defense,
so it was one of my predecessors who did the
investigation on this. But it wasn't Actually it was a
landing and not a crash, so there wasn't any debris.
But what there was, and this is confirmed in a
file on the incident that the Ministry Defense is now
(51:59):
declass scified and released what there was. As well as
those burn marks and scorch marks on the trees um
there there were levels of radioactivity that seemed significantly higher
than the average background levels by by a factor of
about six times six six to seven times higher. So
(52:22):
there was physical trace evidence and radar too, But again, sadly,
we didn't quite get that smoking gun. But I've been there.
I mean, like I said, it happened after my time,
but I've been there since, mainly to do TV shows
and things. And I've also been to Roswell and and
(52:44):
to area fifty one, well not to it, right up
to the line, right up to the line. Fascinating places
and I think anyone that gets the chance should go
to these places. But you there's not necessarily much to
see any more. I'm so sad. I want to know
where these things are kept. I just want to know
(53:06):
if anyone has seen a piece of a spaceship. Some
people say that this debris exists, and there's a lot
of talk at the moment about so called meta materials,
materials with very strange properties, different quisotopic ratios, different chemical
(53:31):
structures um. At the moment, we've got a lot of
talk and allegations, we haven't yet physically got our hands
on things. But it goes back to what the Senate
Intelligence Committee said that they want from Director of National Intelligence.
(53:51):
The first thing they want is to know within the
US government, look, people who knows what, who's got files
on this? What you all doing, and let's see what
we already know about this and if part of that
debris bring it on. Yes, I wish everybody would just
call a truce for like twenty four hours and be like, okay,
(54:14):
truce on everything. Let's just take a time out and
share the information we have on UFOs and then obviously
tell me absolutely can tell me there is okay. I
have like a couple of real stupid questions because we're
(54:35):
like almost out of time. Feel free to be like, no,
but there is one I kind of want to ask you.
But this is just like a silly question, is there?
Do you have a like a favorite conspiracy theory and
you have a least favorite one that like drives you nuts.
I think my least favorite is that we didn't get
(54:55):
to the Moon, because I've met at least one of
the astronauts who did go there, edgar Mitchell, and all
these people I think are very brave, truthful, honorable people,
and the skills and the skills of the scientists and
the engineers. I think it's disparaging to those people there
(55:18):
there ability their bravery to say that we didn't go,
and I think there's a whole bunch of really really
good evidence to say that we did, including the moon
rocks which are different in terms of isotopic ratios and things,
and heck, they even left Basically, they left a giant
mirror on the Moon so that you can fire a
(55:39):
laser at it and measure the distance that you know,
because of the time it takes the light to come back,
but we love to mirror on the Moon to shoot
lasers at. Yes, it's it's called the did you this?
I think it's technically called the Laser Reflector Experiment or
something like that, but it is. It is basically a mirror.
(56:01):
We left a mirror on the Moon, and like pretty
observatories that you know, anyone that's got a sufficiently powerful
and accurate laser can fire it. And obviously it wouldn't
come back if we didn't go up there and leave
the thing there on the first place. That's my least favorite.
What are we shooting lasers adding for? Firstly, one of
(56:24):
the big reasons is to measure down to the sort
of nano millimeter the distance between the Earth and the Moon,
and that distance is changing ever so slightly every every
year the Moon drifts a little bit further away from
the Earth, and scientists like to measure those sorts of things.
(56:47):
So that's that's one reason. But if I'm being honest,
I honestly think the other reason then it's just to
prove that they went there in the first place so
that you can do this experiment. Well, I mean, a
lot of people give these astronauts ship and like have
made a whole thing out of it. So maybe it's
good they left their little laser mirror up there because
(57:09):
I didn't know about it. I'm gonna tell everybody I
know about the mirror, the laser mirror, and I don't know.
I don't know that I particularly have a favorite. Um
maybe it's I don't know, lizards, Um, just lizards, not
lizard people, just lizards. Oh man, Okay, do you have
(57:31):
like a wildest conspiracy theory that you ever heard, and
you're like, wow, that is such crazy bullshit. Yes, the
false flag alien invasion theory. I don't know this one. Okay.
This is the theory that there aren't any aliens, or
that if there are, the government is going to make
(57:54):
some fake aliens. And basically what they're gonna do is
through a combination of hologram technology and Hollywood special effects.
They aren't going to fake an alien invasion so that
they can unite the world under a new World Order
(58:16):
to fight this threat that in reality doesn't really exist.
It's all a con So the false flag alien invasion, Wow,
I would have never thought of that, because people have
a lot of time. I just think we should all
be friends and stop killing each other and share a
UFO information. So then maybe the aliens can come and
(58:39):
we can hang out with them. That would be good
party on fuck. Yes, that is how we are ending
this interview party on Intergalactically. Thank you so much for
coming on here. It is so fascinating to talk with you.
I'm going to try to get your email or something
because I have like five million more questions. Thank you
(59:02):
everybody listening um, if you would like to shamelessly promote yourself,
go ahead. Where do people find you? How did they
find you? What do they I have a website, Nick
Pope dot net that links to my social media, but
the one I use most, particularly for fast last stories,
is Twitter, where I am Nick Pope, m O d
(59:25):
okay perfect Follow him. Thank you for listening, keep on
creeping on. Thank you, Nick, It's been a pleasure. Thank you.
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