Sausage Casing Bodies with Graham Nicholls

Kesha talks with leading researcher and practitioner on out-of-body experiences Graham Nicholls. Graham discusses his history of seeing apparitions and experiencing out-of-body experiences as a kid and how those moments guided his life's work. Kesha learns about shared-death-experiences and finds out what it feels like to separate your soul from your body.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was maybe six ft above my body looking back
at myself, but the me that was floating felt like
the real me. And I looked back at myself and
I saw my body laying there, and it was like
looking at a photograph. Hello, and welcome to this week's

(00:32):
edition of Cash and the Creepies. Today, I welcome Graham Nichols,
expert on out of body experiences, author and board member
at the Rhyme Research Center. Thank you so much for
being here. Thanks for being my podcast. Great to be here.
I'm like, really fascinated with out of body experiences. Well,

(00:53):
let me this is something I ask every guest. Do
you believe in the supernatural? I tend to see it
as the natural, I guess I tend to see it
as an extension of the natural, if you like, So,
I wouldn't necessarily call it supernatural, but yeah, that works too,
So yeah, what would you call it? Just like it's

(01:13):
the natural part of things that we can't see. Yeah,
I just think it's that we haven't fully understood everything
that's possible in the world yet. That's kind of how
I tend to look at it, Like our brains can't
comprehend it. Now. I just think sort of scientifically. I
guess we call things supernatural until we scientifically understand it,

(01:33):
and then we just call it the natural because I
guess if you go back in history, we used to
call anything that was sort of unusual. We used to
call getting ill supernatural, didn't we because we people used
to say it was like a spirit taking over your
body or something, and that's what being sick was or
something like that. So I guess how I tend to
look at it now is that um as we start

(01:55):
to understand all those things, it just becomes a part
of our understanding of the world. I guess we have
different opinions on how the world works, from religion to
science too, parapsychology and all those kinds of things so
interesting because I feel like I find this supernatural. That's
just like the most umbrella term for what I'm fascinated

(02:18):
in is the stuff that is not yet explainable or
just like you can't really see it. It's intangible. You
can't hold it, and maybe you can't prove it scientifically,
but you feel it. And once you feel something or
you see like an apparition or for me, I've seen
like lights in the sky, like I've seen it. You

(02:38):
can't really explain it when I try to. I'm aware
that it sounds crazy as all hell, but I saw it,
so it's real. Yeah, I think I think we can
probably deal with these things scientifically. That's the interesting thing.
I tend to. I tend to be quite drawn to
the science, and I want to I want to do

(03:00):
our body experiences and explore ghosts and apparitions and all
those kinds of things in the context of science, and
then kind of maybe one day we'll kind of see
those things as normal in it. I think so too,
And that's like why I love science. I love science.

(03:22):
So something that you're an expert at out of body experiences?
What is an out of body experience? Okay? So, and
our body experience, from my perspective, is probably when your
consciousness or you could call it a spirit or something

(03:45):
like that just depends on how you look at it,
but I think it's when your consciousness experiences the world
from a vantage point or a place away from your
physical body. So it's literally like I feel like me,
everything about me is normal, but I might be floating
above myself looking back at my body. Like my very
first experience I was maybe six ft above my body

(04:08):
looking back at myself. Um, but the me that was
floating felt like the real meat. And I looked back
at myself and I saw my body laying there, and
it was like looking at a photograph. It would it
look like me. Everything about it was kind of me.
But then at the same time, it didn't feel like
that was the real meat. It felt like the one

(04:29):
floating was the real meat. So that's kind of what
it's like. It's literally like your sense of self, everything
that you identify as you is not associated with your body.
It's another location. So you can travel anywhere in the world.
Theoretically it doesn't always work out quite like that, but

(04:50):
you can go to different locations all around the world,
and you can even go into other levels of reality basically.
So it's it allowed allows you to directly experience and
explore what it is to be a spiritual being or
what the spiritual actually means or the supernatural actually means.
You can have direct experience of it. So that's what

(05:13):
I see it as. Okay, so when you're the first
time this happened, how old we are. The first time
it ever happened was a spontaneous experience when I was
twelve um and that one only lasted a few seconds,
and I found myself maybe half a mile from where
I lived, and I was just above the ground. I

(05:35):
wasn't asleep when it happened or anything like that. I
was just relaxing, and suddenly it was like a click,
and I found myself at this other location, floating above
the ground, basically like a kind of living ghost. It
was just floating there in the middle of the street.
Was kind of like, what the hell is happening? And
then it kind of ended almost as quickly as it started.

(05:57):
But then I heard that there was this thing called
out a Body Experiences about a year later, and that
was when I learned to do it kind of devoted
myself too in my mind, which I've never experienced this,
but I think I've had, like I've had some weird
feelings like that. It's usually like right when I'm falling

(06:18):
asleep or meditating where I feel very much like It's
not a very glamorous way to put it, but this
is just how I saw it. Like our body, like
our skin is like the housing for the like cosmos

(06:38):
that live inside of us, like the spirit and so
it's kind of gross, but this is like what I
have deduced non scientifically, but it's like the sausage casing,
but instead of sausage inside, it's my soul. Does that
make sense? That's a good way for it. But like

(07:01):
the soul that's inside this theoretical spiritual sausage that's floating
to me, that's like who you really are. And then
like I feel like having actually like your spirit and
your body come together. That's like being present in this

(07:22):
life on this plane. But I have a lot of
times where I will like look in the mirror and
be like, oh, ship, I forgot that's what you're Your
housing looks like, Like I'll totally forget what I look
like until I see a mirror and I'm like, oh, well,
so very much like understand the spirit being a separate
entity than the body, but having them be in two

(07:43):
separate locations is something I've never experienced. So like, when
that happened to you, were you thinking about this place?
Did you like this street? Or you just showed up
on a street floating just some random near to where
I went to school. So I think probably the reason
I went there was because it was somewhere kind of

(08:03):
familiar to me, somewhere that I sort of knew well, um,
and maybe I had an emotional connection to it. I
think often where you go in the out body experiences
is to do with how emotionally linked you are to
that place. Sometimes not always, but I think the majority
of the times that's kind of how it happens. So

(08:24):
in that first experience, I went there probably because it
was familiar to me and known to me and that
kind of thing. Um, And did it freak you out?
It did freak me out. Yeah, I didn't know, not
not hugely, because I guess rewinding a bit. When I
was about five and early in my life I had

(08:45):
apparition experiences and things like that. So I've had other
God tell me about that and go on, you can't
just like pass over that, okay girl, m okay. Well
that that was basically the first paranormal supernatural thing that
ever happen. And I was five years old. I were
around that age. I basically woke up in the night,

(09:06):
went into the hallway of the flat that I grew
up in, um, and basically in the hallway there was
this tall figure. It filled the entire kind of height
of the doorway that kind of led out of the flat. Um.
It looked quite inhuman in a sense. It was humanoid,

(09:29):
but it had it's really hard to kind of describe it.
It was just very otherworldly. It kind of almost I
guess now I would probably say something almost like a
shaman or shamanic something like that, kind of almost like
it was wearing a kind of costume or something of
that description. Um. And I just sort of looked at it,

(09:50):
and that really terrified me. Obviously, I've never seen anything
like it. I remember going down onto the ground because
it sort of gave me some solidity, and then turned
around to try and sort of call out to my parents, UM,
but I was too scared. I couldn't make any sound, basically.
And then I looked back and it was still there
and disappeared or anything, and it just and then kind

(10:13):
of around it. There seemed to be almost like a
suggestion that it was like standing on a threshold. It
was almost like there was an opening to some of
her reality or something behind it. So it was a
really crazy experience. I don't know how how else to
put it in terrified you want to go? Did you

(10:33):
want to go into this other realm because I would, well,
maybe not at five, but like today, i'd be like,
let's go, let's go into there. But I guess at
five years old, I probably wouldn't feel the way. Yeah,
at five, I was just scared. But but then when
the outer body experiences happened, it was something that I
really wanted to explore. So that's when I got hold

(10:55):
of a book on the subject, and then I literally
I decided to dedicate a year because I read that
it took a long time to learn often, so I
decided to dedicate a year to systematically learning to have
um have those experiences. So it actually took me six months,
but I I practiced every single night for that whole period.

(11:15):
So I don't know where that dedication came from. This
is like thirteen and a half fourteen, But I just
really wanted to do it. Okay, I have so many questions. Okay,
so the first time it happened kind of freaky quick.
But then you're like, I want to go into this.
I want to learn how to do it and dive

(11:38):
into it. How does how do you begin to teach
yourself to have an out of body experience? Do you
train yourself? Is it like like training on muscles at
like vocal training, Like how do you just have to practice?
You just have to It's kind of like self hypnosis.
I guess what I did was I went and I

(11:59):
found a book on subject. But the only book I
could find was quite scientific, So it was more saying, ah,
these experiences real That was more where it was coming from.
But in the back of the book it had a
few really simple techniques. The technique was just that you
imagined you were floating on a cloud basically, and you
had to keep imagining that. The idea was that eventually

(12:22):
it would sort of trigger your unconscious mind to realize
that that's what you're trying to do. You're trying to
have an outward experience. Luckily we have much better techniques
than that now, but at the time that was all
I had. So I worked with this technique over and over,
did it every single night, and then eventually, yeah, it
led to this. Uh. I was almost at the point

(12:44):
of giving up. Actually, I was kind of like, this
isn't this isn't working. This is kind of like I've
been doing this for months, if there's no point it's
not going to work. I was sort of really disillusioned
with it, and then so I sort of let go,
and I wasn't sort of tensing up. I was sort
of trying to make it happen anymore. I just sort
of let go. And when I let go, it just

(13:06):
like this huge energy went through me, which was a
very positive energy. It felt very good. It was like
a kind of just huge release of tension and stress
and everything. It was just all kind of surge through me.
And then I just that was when I found myself
above my body, looking at the what looked like a
photograph of myself. It was very still and kind of

(13:29):
didn't seem alive in a sense, whereas the me that
was outside of my body felt full of energy. It
was almost like there was energy radiating off my body.
The whole room was kind of lit up from the energy. UM,
and I couldn't move very much. It was quite limited
in that first experience. It was almost like I could
only rotate kind of sort of like that. But um.

(13:50):
But at the same time, I just felt completely alive
and completely energized. And then I came back to my
body and I was just Yeah. From that point on,
it was like the floodgates opened and I was like,
I could do it pretty much whenever I want it. Then,
like you could do it. I'm not going to ask
you to, but like if you wanted to, you could

(14:11):
like go and do that, Like after we have a chat,
you can go have an out of body experience. Well,
there's a tend to I tend to say, when the
conditions are right. So if you if you think about, um,
something like being creative for example, when you know, when
when you feel like you can do artwork or do

(14:33):
something like that and you just feel like you're in
that right head space kind of thing, I tend to
think it's similar to like being in the zone, you know. Um, So,
so yeah, if I'm in the right kind of condition
and everything feels right, then yeah, I can do it.
But sometimes you just you know, like with anything you
don't feel quite right and it doesn't doesn't work. But

(14:55):
but yeah, most of the time when it's kind of
feeling right, if I force it, if I try sort
of too hard, odd than the quality of the experience
will be quite lowing quality. But if I allow it, yes,
then it's better. I think that's true in just life
in general. I've started approaching life in general exactly what
you just said, where you stop trying, Like I do

(15:19):
believe that hard work and practicing something can help develop
a skill, but I do think when you try to
force something that's just unforceable, like an experience like that,
or even making like a really like for me, as

(15:39):
making a song that's like really emotional, Like I can
sit there and try all day, but you never know
when it's going to come. It almost comes when you
stop trying so damn hard, which is so hard to
stop trying when you're like, no, but I've tasted the magic.
I want to have it, but you have to. So
I've started looking at life like it like a wild

(16:01):
tiger and I'm a cat lover. I don't know if
this is going to make any sense, but in my mind,
it's like you have to, like you can't be thirsty
for the magic, like if they're going to interact with you,
whatever it is, like the universe, God, energy, the wild tiger,

(16:21):
whatever it is, you can't want it too bad because
I feel like you want something too bad that energy
repels whatever it is that you want so badly, and
like you said, when you have to kind of let
go of it and just allow it to happen. That's
when the really magical stuff happens. I think, in my opinion,

(16:42):
I agree, and I think that's actually one of the
key secrets without body experiences. I think if someone is
trying to learn, they need to maintain a kind of
positive mental attitude. They need to be really kind of excited,
look at it like they're exploring and trying to, you know,
to discover something new and keep that kind of openness

(17:02):
and that excitement, and if they do that, then the
experience will unfold quite naturally. But um what, unfortunately, what
most people do is they tend to kind of get
this idea of the word projection. I did it myself.
I had this idea that it was all about will
power and projection and you know, I had to kind
of make it happen kind of thing. And I think

(17:24):
that's completely the wrong way to think about it. So
when I let go of that, that's when the experiences
really started happening. So now I tend to allow the
experiences to happen when everything feels really right and good,
and I'll just see where it goes. So I kind
of go with the flow a lot more. Now. I

(17:44):
love that I'm writing down and allow it. I feel
like that's like the name of the game of my
life right now. I'm just every time I don't know
what I'm doing or what to do, I'm just like
I'm gonna start trying to figure it out. I'm gonna
sit back, I'm gonna allow it to play out. But
I have like a super open heart, which also leads

(18:10):
me to being super fucking gullible but trying to like
find those boundaries in my life. But I yeah, allowing
it to happen, which I'm such a control freak because
I go like O, C, D, D H, you name it.
I'm just like have so much wild energy. So just
like sitting back and allowing things to happen does not

(18:32):
necessarily come naturally to me, Like I like to get
ship done and do it. I think the thing is,
I think you can explore all these things and explore
these avenues of how life and these kinds of experiences
where they take you, um, But I think it's just
being open to letting them take you somewhere. So you're

(18:53):
being active in that sense, but you're not trying to
say I have to go down this avenue or I
have to do this particular thing, you're kind of allowing
the experience to kind of take you in a particular direction.
To give an example, in my EARLI out of body experiences,
I was often trying to I had this idea that
I needed to perfect everything, so I needed to be

(19:14):
able to move and control every movement that I made
and be completely in control of the experience. And so
actually just going across the room in a straight line
was really difficult. There's people tend to experience. They often
call them astral tides. So it's almost like this energy
that kind of moves through the space, and as you're
trying to move, it can kind of make you drift

(19:37):
in a different direction or something like that, and I
I would try to go against that. I would try
and go against the grain and try to say no,
I want to go from here to that, and and
doing that actually led me to waste a lot of
amazing experiences. If I'd actually let myself go with that tide,

(19:57):
or go with that energy and just see where I go,
then it probably would have materialized into an amazing experience.
But I was too caught up in controlling it that
I was kind of missing the forest for the trees
a little bit in those early days, but then I
just started allowing the experiences to unfold, and then I

(20:17):
would find myself, I don't know, in Cuba or like,
you know, complete all different parts of the world, or
or even in like these other levels of reality. They
seem to be you know, like um beautiful natural environments
that very much like what people describe in sort of
heavenly type things. And then you know, all different kinds

(20:38):
of experiences and situations where I would seemed to see
something from the past or see something from the future,
these kinds of things. So the experience is just completely
open to so many possibilities. Really, so do you think
it's almost like a little bit of time travel because
time is relative little like inter dement Chanel Just like

(21:04):
I'm trying to wrap my brain around it, because this
is something I really have no experience with, but it
just kind of sounds like when you let go of
your physical constraint of your body, you can kind of
go anywhere, but you have to ride the astral tie.
I'm writing that down to that's going in a song.
I've never heard that before, and I love it is.

(21:28):
They're all gonna be like tattooed on my foot and
like a song, so very inspiring. But like, have you
ever been to Cuba in your body? Or just see that? Ye?
See that? Actually, that experience I was thinking of was
connected to someone who was very close to my family.

(21:49):
It was from Cuba, um, and she died, and quite
soon after she died. It was literally the last thing
I've written in my diary. I had an outabuny experience
and I went to Cuba. I worked out it was
Cuba because of the way it looked from above and
like all you know, the the coastal imagery and all

(22:12):
of that kind of thing. And I worked out where
I was, and I was thinking, why have I been
drawn to Cuba? But then I opened my diary, which
I have kept a diary since it was fourteen of
most of my experiences. UM, so I started. I opened
it to write this experience down, and there was the
entry about the death of the family friend. And then

(22:34):
I realized us she was born in Cuba, And suddenly
it all kind of made sense that it was almost like, um,
it was almost like a connection with her, or some
kind of message from her, if you like, or something
like that. So interesting is there a world where it's like,

(22:54):
because I've done some hypnosis before but never reached what
you're talking about, But is there science that backs out
of body experience? I just like, I have no idea. Well,
actually that's something I'm really passionate about as well. Um
there is there are some researchers who have done work

(23:18):
in the past. Um there was a guy called Alex
Tennis who did research in the sort of eighties and
with a research of all Carlos osis from that VIEA
and they did experiments where they tried to sort of
he would try to go and see targets and things
like that. And then there's a researcher in Italy at

(23:40):
the moment called Patricio Trisoldi who is doing research same
kind of thing, looking at seeing targets and things like that.
And then the Rhyme Research Center. I've done research with
them looking at trying to again trying to see targets
and things like that at a distance. So we did
like about in weeks of different targets and things, and

(24:03):
then I would try to have an experience or I
tried different techniques not just outable the experiences. I tried
to remote viewing. I tried different methodologies. I used sensory deprivation,
mild sensory deprivation, all different things. UM. I have used tanks.
In that particular instance, I used gangs felt, which is

(24:27):
where you wear kind of headphones that play white noise
or pink noise, and then you have kind of ping
pong balls over your eyes, like half pink pom balls.
So and then you have a red light in your eyes.
The reason for this is it the red light make
sure pupils dilate. But then you can only see this

(24:47):
uniform red glow because of the dome over your eyes.
And then what happens is your brain starts looking for information,
so you start getting psychic information coming in. UM. So
it's a way that you can take a very ordinary
person off the street and give them a mild psychic experience.

(25:08):
So they've used it in a lot of research. So
that's really interesting to me. So if you take the
average person, do you think every person has some sort
of psychic ability? Yeah, basically yes, because I think so
too the same way I think every person is an
artist if they allow themselves to explore the avenue. But

(25:31):
I guess I would a wonder like what was produced
by all of these things you did? Well? It shows
what they do is they create a statistic on how
accurate it was. And basically the research shows that, um,
people who go into the laboratory, even an average person

(25:53):
does about six six to eight above chance. So what
so if they were guessing, they would say get sort
if they if they're doing the gang Spelled experiment with
the sensory deprivation, they get about thirty three percent, so
they go up. But when you control for people like

(26:14):
me or creative types probably someone like you as well, UM,
people will do significantly higher than that. So it gets
up to more like accuracy and things like that. Um,
the thing I was doing, the remote perceptions with that,

(26:35):
there's there's been incredible results with those kinds of studies.
And you know, I've also I've also had witnessed out
body experiences where there were people present and then I
had an out body experience and then we were able
to verify the information and things like that. Okay, wait wait, wait,
hold on, So you're being watched while you have an

(26:55):
out of body experience and being like studied those experience
is weren't so much the studying the experiences that I
did during that fourteen week study, those were those were
all under controlled conditions, so it was all completely blind
and I had to look at studies. And then I've
done some research with Dean Raiding at the Institute of

(27:17):
Noitic Sciences which was literally like something out of a film.
They put you in a still still box basically and
kind of lock you in and that box is completely
magnetically shielded, so there's no frequencies or anything can go
into that box. And then I had to try and
affect things on a quantum levels, on the most minute

(27:41):
level of like physical reality. I had to try and
influence quantum effects on that kind of level. What does
that mean? Moving things or trying to like read what
someone else is thinking, moving things on a on a
quantum level. So have you heard of the double slit experiment? No,

(28:01):
tell me about it please. Well it's a really interesting
experiment because what they do is they've got these two
slits and they shoot photons particles of light through these
slits um with a thing called an interferometer. So it
just sends these particles through and if someone looks observes

(28:22):
the experiment, you get dots on either side like their particles. Right,
if someone is not observing the experiment, you get a
wave pattern. So basically the act of someone looking at
it seems to change reality on a quantum level um.
This is kind of what some people believe is going on,

(28:44):
that there's literally that we are like when we interact
with reality, reality changes um. So what the experiment deemed
Radium was doing was he was wondering if this could
happen on a psychic level, So could I affect reality
on a quantum level, on that really minute level of reality?
So could I cause a change in this like wave

(29:07):
or particle pattern that you get. So basically I was
in this box and I had to try and cause
the particles to deviate from how they were usually functioning.
And then he looked at the data statistically and would say, okay,
yes it worked or yes it didn't work. So he

(29:27):
found that overall with those experiments that it does work,
and that basically people can affect things on a quantum
level with their psychic ability. Basically, so that psychic ability
or do you think that's just energy? Because if you
take it to like physics, right, we're all energy. We
all have energy. So this might not make any sense.

(29:50):
I'm really visual, but there's sound waves, right, So I
make sound as a job, so I see the sound waves,
so I'm kind of imagining the light wave in a
more sense, like if it's going like this, so with
your mind, you made it kind of change direction, is
what you're saying. Because that makes sense to me, because
even just having a positive attitude or being kind to

(30:13):
someone I feel like can change energetically your mood and
also the mood of someone else. So it only makes
sense that it's part of physics to me, like the
energy that you're putting out would affect the things that
are surrounding you, including sound waves, light waves. All of

(30:33):
that sounds like it makes perfect sense to me, But
I mean, is that far out. What a lot of
the scientists would say is that they don't divide all
these things up. I think a lot of the scientists
are starting to think that consciousness might be a fundamental
aspect of reality, that are our minds and our experience

(30:54):
of the world might be as much a part of
reality as light or sound or any of those things
that literally um. Some of the near def experience researchers
think that as we um when we have a near
deaf experience or an out body experience, or um or
when we die even that essentially it's like the filters

(31:17):
taken off. Suddenly we're able to experience reality for the
full spectrum of what it is. But while we're alive,
we're kind of almost our brains are almost filtering it out.
So there's Yeah, there's so much possibility for what could
be going on. Really, I know, it trips me out.

(31:38):
I don't know where to start with it. And then
I'm like and then I'm stuck in my little sausage
casing body and I forget, and then I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah,
you're like you're a woman, your freckles, you're blunt, like
the things like that. I'll totally forget until I see
a mirror. But that's neither your No there. I want

(31:59):
to ask you're about okay with the out of body experiences.
Is there like a place you're trying? Is there like
a goal I feel like I want to go into,
like the ether, I want to go to the moon,
or you just are open to wherever it's going to
take you. In the early place you wanted to Yeah,

(32:20):
in the early experiences, I was more focused on a
particular place that I wanted to go. But then I
guess a bit like what we were saying about intuition
and guidance and sort of trusting things. Um, I started
to find that when I allowed the experience to unfold,
more interesting things would happen, or more challenging things. Um.

(32:44):
You know. So I've generally just allowed the experience to
unfold as it does. I mean, um, sometimes I will
decide on trying to get to a particular location. Like
one of the experiments that I was doing with the
Institute of Noitic Sciences was I tried to go to
their laboratory in and out of body experience and influence

(33:06):
the experiment there from the UK. So I went there
physically when I did the actual experiments, but then afterwards
I tried to go back in an outbuddy experience and
influence it from the other side of the world. So
I don't know the results. How did that work. I
don't know the results of that yet, but that was
something that I tried to do. So well, then it's

(33:28):
like then I'm like, you're basically a living go yeah,
So then it rises, I mean, then the question arises
like well, our ghosts necessarily dead people are not necessarily
because people have seen me, and people see people while

(33:50):
out of body as well, usually in the form of
a kind of shadow figure, that's the most common. So
it will literally be like a figure that looks like
a shadow that's kind of moving around on its own.
That kind of thing. Interesting, So when you were a kid,
that maybe was like what you thought was a ghost,

(34:11):
or the apparition could have actually just been it's possiblesible
body experience. It's possible gateway didn't look like a shadow,
didn't have that quality. But then again, some people have
also not seen me, but some people have seen someone
having an outbuddy experience and seen them exactly as they

(34:32):
look in real life. So even down to being accurate
about the clothes that that person head on on that
particular day, which is really strange because that kind of
then you've got the thing that they were wearing clothes,
so they've had an out of body experience, gone to
a different location their clothes, so it kind of suggests
that maybe they're projecting some kind of image of themselves,

(34:56):
you know how they usually look as well as you know,
whatever else is going. So sometimes it's nondescript, like a shadow,
but other times it's like a full image, including like
clothes and details of their appearance and all of that.
That's so interesting because I'm so I have so many

(35:18):
ridiculous items of clothing, and I just wonder what I
like to think that when I pass away, when I die,
I either turned into a mushroom, or if I'm like
going to this ether place, I wonder what I'll be wearing.
Like I kind of hope I'll be like naked with

(35:40):
a sparkly cape on with just covered and glitter, and
I think I'll be turquoise, and I don't know. I
just wonder. I'm hoping. Basically, I'm asking you you are
confirming that that's probably what I'll look like in that
for life definitely perfect. That's how I needed to know

(36:03):
because I was reading something you'd said about how you
you were having an out about the experience and you
think maybe saw from a distance people that were like
in transition between life and death. Is that right? Oh? Yeah, yeah,
I had. They tend to call it a shared death
experience now where you literally see the kind of deaf

(36:26):
experience of someone else. Um, so in that in that experience.
So that's an example of kind of amazing stuff that
if you don't force the experience in any direction, that
can happen. So I found myself it was quite classical
about sort of a laughter life kind of type of environment.
It was very misty, kind of cloudy looked, you know,

(36:50):
literally like bellowing cloud. There was no up, no down.
You couldn't really see any surface or or sky or
it was just all this kind of misty environment and
around sort of about a hundred twos from where I was.
It's the best estimate I can give. There was a
group of people and they all seemed um, not stressed,

(37:15):
but confused. They all seemed like they didn't know what
was happening where they were, what was going on UM.
And as they sort of settled into the experience, as
they started to feel more in tune with what was
going on, UM, some of them, it was literally like
I was seeing their thoughts. It was like this sort
of um almost like a screen opened up around some

(37:38):
of their heads and I could see memories, thoughts, perceptions
of There was one guy in the foreground, like the
closest to me. UM. He was sort of an older guy. UM.
He seemed to be struggling, and I saw in the
imagery in his mind this man who had very like

(38:02):
leavery sort of skin, very dark tan. He looked like
he'd worked outside his whole life, very very kind of
looked like he'd been beaten by the sun for for
years kind of thing. Um. And I kind of interpreted
this as probably his father, and he was kind of
seen there seemed to be tension between him and his father,
and he was struggling with this tension, and slowly it

(38:27):
was kind of seemed to be getting resolved, um, but
he was he was struggling. And then I looked across
the group and then there was I think it was
a woman on the far side of the group, and
she was the complete opposite. She seemed to be really
open and light and she wasn't stressed by any of
the situation um, and she just basically just drifted off

(38:52):
into into the sort of mist, and it was like
it was like she transitioned. She just went from one
level to another, like quite smoothly and easily. So within
the group, there were different levels of intensity of the
process they were going through, so it was literally like
what they call a life review. In near death experience research.

(39:13):
So they were going through this process and then they
drifted away. So after this experience, it was in the morning,
I came back from the out body experience and I
was kind of like this, I felt so real, This
was so like a peak experience. I tent to call
them like something that's like beyond anything I normally experienced.

(39:36):
And I remember, I think it was on the TV.
Later that day there was a news report that basically
said there'd been a plane crash in Norway, um on
an island off of Norway called Sabat, and a hundred
and forty people had died in that crash, which was
exactly the like the number that I'd seen, and most

(39:57):
of them were you Rainian or Russian kind of descent,
which is also what they look like to me and
the experience, so it was like I got a confirmation
in physical reality that what I'd seen in that experience
was a real experience. Basically, that's so interesting to me

(40:19):
because like for all the reasons, but I guess, witnessing
the crossing over of other souls, I have like so
many questions. First of all, when you're doing this, do
you have like feet and hands and like, are you like,
do you look like a person? Are you more just
like I feel like a ball of energy? Um. That

(40:40):
that depends. Sometimes I have a body, but more commonly
now I'm more like a ball of energy. Um. But
in the early it's it's interesting. I think that in
our early experiences, we tend to think of ourselves kind
of like um, as a body, as a person, So
you tend to experience yourself as a as a body.

(41:02):
But I think as the process guys on, as you
become more familiar with being in an outputty experience, it
tends to sort of shift and you start to experience
more as a kind of an ORB or or something
like that, which I've also had an orban experience. So
that's another thing. Okay, wait, what's the Okay, wait, hold on,

(41:24):
So you tend you tend to be more of an
orb and you've had an orbit experience. I'm going to
circle back to that one second. But the plane crash
that people they still look like people, like fully clothed
in the whole thing. Okay, So now the orb experience,
because I've also heard that. I was talking to Demi

(41:46):
Lovato and she was talking about kind of um experiencing
like through meditation, extraterrestrial contact, and she was showing me
photos of these blue green um golden I personally saw
ones that were like orange fire colored like these orbs,

(42:08):
and so I want to not like a it could
be extra treasure. We could I'll be talking about the
same thing and be what's your ORB experience? Well, I agree,
I don't know what it was. But I was meditating
with a friend of mine. He's a musician. Actually we were.
We were sitting meditating and just kind of very calm,

(42:33):
had sort of a very peaceful music on. We was
sitting there and suddenly, at the top of the kind
of weather ceiling and the wall meet, this kind of
ball of energy just moved through the wall um at
the at that level, and it was about the size
of a basketball and it and it drifted down slowly

(42:55):
in front of us and stopped at kind of like
our eye level between me and him. UM. I looked
at him and he kind of gesture to me that yeah,
he was also seeing this um and we just we
looked at it and it seemed to just radiate this energy.
It was green, like opaque green um, and it was

(43:16):
just radiating a very positive energy. It was like a
kind of love energy even. It was just really we
just felt incredible kind of sitting there and we just
kind of watched it. And then it stayed there for
quite a while, maybe as long as ten minutes or
something like that. Um, and we were just fixated on it,
and we almost felt like we were communicating with it,

(43:39):
but on a sort of an emotional level. Um. And
then it drifted away. I don't remember exactly, but it
kind of drifted away. So, yeah, that was my experience
with a or. But I don't know what it was
that I put it down to being a spirit because
that was my reference if you like my filter. But

(44:01):
you know, you could easily also interpret that in it
as a kind of alien or I don't know, extraterrestrial.
It could be a spirit that's passed on. It could
be somebody else astral projecting or having an out of
body experience. It's so crazy. There's so many there's so
many possibilities. And I feel like usually when I talked

(44:25):
to a large majority of people about this kind of stuff,
they like giggle, And I mean not to generalize, but
I'm just gonna like most of the men I have
dated like cis gender white straight man like laugh at

(44:47):
me when I talk about this stuff. So I was like,
is it because I'm an artist? Is because I'm a woman?
Is it because I have always have had this really
strange relationship with my body where it just felt like
it wasn't mine? Since I remember having about it, I
was like, Oh, this is my vehicle. So does say
for this lifetime for my soul. But it's so nice

(45:07):
to have this conversation because I do feel like leading
us somewhat spiritual existence has made my life so much
happier and more positive and better and also be able
to weed out like what's actually good for not only
myself but other people on the planet. I agree, And
I think I think what you just said about men,

(45:28):
I think there is really a kind of hits to
do with this kind of role of masculinity and how
people are supposed to be in society. And I think
often men do get caught up in this thing that
they should not engage with those kinds of things they
should sort of because they're not you know, they too
we were? Were they too emotional? Which is you know,

(45:50):
things like that. So I think I think there's a
degree of sort of toxic masculinity and those kind of
ways of approaching things, which is really unfortunate thing because
you get the same thing with you know, things like
veganism and stuff like that. You know, people get very yeah,
because I'm also vegan, and I kind of see that

(46:11):
a part of my spiritual sort of identity as well.
And I feel it's a shame that a lot of
these sort of masculine viewpoints kind of stop people doing
better things in their lives. Specifically, it's so true because
of some sort of societal system that makes no sense,

(46:32):
yet we all kind of conform and adhere to it
until you hit a certain point, which I feel like
has happened really over time for me at least, but
where I started being like, wait, why am I even
doing that thing? I don't stand for that. I don't
want to do that, I don't want to wear that,
I don't want to say that. But it just seemed

(46:53):
like it was part of what I was supposed to
behave like and I think for you know, a lot
of men that I've met, these conversations just like they
just dip out, They're like, no, I'm good, So I
like love having this conversation with you. It's great because
I do think there's an element of the masculinity that's
supposed to be not emotional, and I feel like, as

(47:16):
such an emotional creature, I could do being less emotional,
but there's so many men I see that I just
want to be like, it's okay, you cry. Like maybe
the world would be like, like less aggressive if everybody
was just a little bit more emotionally open and felt
safe doing that. Yeah, I think I think informity is
a big problem in general, you know. I think that

(47:39):
I think without a body experiences and all these things
they took me away from maybe a lot of that
need to be a particular way in my life. So
I think having those experiences made me think, no, I'm
going to walk my own path. I'm not going to
sort of follow this herd mentality that a lot of
people get sucked into and just sort of explore what

(48:01):
it is to be human and what all these experiences
mean and all these kinds of things. So I just
was exploring all these different areas that maybe a lot
of mainstream society rejects from the age of like fourteen
or whatever. That's I love that I wish I had
been more into spiritual stuff when I was at age.

(48:23):
I was just into like trying to make out with
like senior boys, and I was playing the saxophone in
the marching band. It was not cool. It was it
was not having out about the experiences. I wish I
was like you got like a head start onto deeper
cool ship. So you have, of course on how to
like do this? Do you teach people? Oh my god,

(48:46):
I kind of do it all right? How do I
sign up for it? I have an online course and
I do private tuition, So I I love teaching people.
I think it's like so fulfilling to kind of give
people that kind of variance and see where they can
go with it. I've also got technology that I developed,
which is sound technology that helps get you to the

(49:10):
vibrational state, which is the pre state to the outbordy experience.
It's like the launching pad. So if you can get
to that point, then it's much easier to have an
outbordy experience. So I developed that as well. So what
does that It's infraliminal sound, So the infra part means
infra sounds, so it's very low level sound. Frequencies that

(49:33):
cause a mild shift in in your sort of conscious state.
And then it's also got subliminal messages to sort of
help you tune into the out body experience. So it's
kind of a combination of those two things. So UM,
and it uses the frequencies to kind of guide you
into that pre state of the out body experience. Basically,

(49:57):
what are the Okay when I hear when I think
of subliminal messages, I can't help but think like, oh,
that sounds like manipulative unless I know what it is.
So what are you saying, Like, what's the subliminal message
just to have enough body experience? It's it's just literally

(50:18):
too um, because I think a lot of the process
of inducing an outbuddy experience is getting the message to
your unconscious mind. Because I think what tends to happen
is we lay there trying to induce an outbuddy experience,
but sort of our conscious mind doesn't quite get what's
going on in that You can't sort of fully induce

(50:39):
it just from a conscious state, so you have to
get it into your unconscious in order to trigger the experience.
So the subliminals help with that. UM. So you can
also do it from a sleep state as well. But
there's two different versions. Are you like whisper talking in
the background, like saying things? Are the frequencies are I'll

(51:01):
just have to listen to you. You don't hear anything.
The main thing is the frequencies. But then there's there's
just these subtle sort of affirmations call them affirmations that
are layered into the frequencies. But the main thing what
we did is we did we experimented with ways of
um altering consciousness using frequencies. So when you listen to

(51:25):
music or you listen to sound, we all know there's
an emotional change or there's a change in how we
feel when we do that. So basically experimented with, okay,
if we put this kind of frequency, how does that
make the person feel? Do they feel better? Do they
feel more peaceful? You know what? How does that frequency
affect people? So we went through and basically created a

(51:48):
pattern of frequencies that will help you get if you
follow them, like almost like a meditation. You go with
the sound frequencies. It's almost like a mantra or something
like that, but in a recording, So a mantra or
like the sound that you hear when when you hear
like Buddhist monks or something like that, they're using sound

(52:10):
to get their consciousness to a particular point. And basically
I've kind of distilled that into frequencies in a in
a recording, so you can listen to that and it
will guide you to that point. Um. And then if
you combine that with the techniques, then it's much easier
to have an out body experience. So it makes it

(52:30):
more like a couple of months of work rather than
six months or whatever. Wait, I really want to do it, Okay,
just for myself, but and everybody listening, how would they
sign up for that? Do you have a website? They
can go to Graham Nicols dot com, which is Nickels
with two l's um, and yeah, they can get everything there.

(52:54):
The infra eliminal tracks are on there, or they can
get the course and there's kind of packages you get
course with the infraliminal and they can even get the
course infraliminal and I'll answer their questions as a one
on one option as well. The whole thing. I love that.
I'm gonna I'm gonna try it. I mean, I'm gonna

(53:18):
try it. Fuck it, I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna
try it. Um. I wanted to ask you about because
I was reading something you had written about the importance
of solitude and as someone who is never by themselves ever,

(53:39):
like ever, like even when I go pe, I'll have
someone following me asking me a question about something. Never alone,
and I like being around people, like I'm just always
around a ton of people. And maybe I'm used to it.
Maybe I'm codependent. Maybe I don't know what it is,

(53:59):
but so what do you think it is so important
about being alone? Um, I'm not sure it's important for everyone,
but I think it can be a really powerful way
to connect with those inner experiences and listen to the
kind of levels of your awareness and your consciousness that

(54:22):
maybe you don't hear if you're kind of constantly around
chatter and other people a lot like you do with
meditation and things like that. So, UM, I tend to
like to go off into nature and kind of connect
with nature and just spend some time on my own.
And it's almost a bit of a shamanic thing and

(54:42):
a little bit um. I also was initiated and part
of like witchcraft when I was quite young. So that
was also interconnected with all this. So um, I've sort
of kept wait, what do you mean, Um, you're initiating
the witchcraft. You have to tell me what that means. Well,

(55:02):
when I was fourteen and I was getting into all
this stuff, um, I guess when I was looking into
out of all the experiences and astral projection and all
that stuff, I came across witchcraft and things like that
as well. So I found a coven um who did
a blend of Alexandria and wicker and also um, traditional

(55:23):
English witchcraft is how they referred to it. So I
got involved with them, and I got initiated with them,
and so I learned a lot of processes for sort
of connecting with nature and going out into nature and
doing trance work and things like that out in nature.
So I guess that's more the more like using the

(55:45):
body and being very physical and being out in in
amongst the woods or whatever and kind of just connecting
in that kind of way. So um, I'm very I'm
very kind of explore any avenue that I think has
value and that will work and be useful and interesting.
So I've just always been open to all those things.

(56:06):
So yeah, me too. I love it, and I love
like I'll go on tour and be playing shows with
tons of energy and tons of people and just like wild,
wild energy. And then my like come down off of
that is I like to go into the middle of
nowhere and camp and like just like be around absolutely

(56:30):
no one. Or I love scuba diving because I feel
like it's the only time I ever get to really
be alone. Okay, so but I have to put on
a fucking tank and go under the ocean for people
not to bother. The camping sounds similar to what I do.
I often go off into the woods and all that

(56:51):
kind of stuff, so and decamping, and yeah, I find
I find that I like to do that at least
once a year or something where can just sort of
connect and and often I find that my experiences with
the out of body stuff will get better if I
do that, So it gives me that extra kind of

(57:12):
boost if I do something like that. In sensory deprivation,
like you were talking about the tanks earlier, something like
that as well. I think it's just that being in
that total stillness and being completely kind of away from
any kind of imagery and sound and all that kind
of stuff, and just having that period just allows your

(57:35):
it's like a reset, allows your consciousness and your experience
to just reset, and then you can just when you
try to do something after that just tends to flow
and be so much better. Um, that's how. But do
you have the problem of like your brain just being
like that's how I would describe my brain. My brain

(57:57):
is quite like that. So I think I need things
to kind of the kind of tune it out, you know. Um,
I definitely am more of a constantly coming up with
ideas and constantly exploring new areas and constantly learning. You know,
I'm just NonStop with that. So I think that these
kind of practices allow me to maybe turn that off

(58:20):
a little bit into kind of reconnect with something else.
I called myself a spiritual explorer, and then somebody wants
in an interview called me a nature punk, which is
like my favorite thing ever. I was like, I feel
like I'm being seen for who I truly am. But
I don't know, I just feel like if a kindred
spirit in those regions, I'm creative. But Okay, I have

(58:46):
one more question, because I know we're like about at
a time, but I have one question, just because I
don't quite understand what is the difference between astral projection
and and of body experience or can are they can?
Can they be the same thing? Are they two separate things?
I guess what most people that the way most people

(59:09):
divide the two is to say that UM, a'stu projection
is an intentional our body experience. So you could have
an our body experience spontaneously like I did when I
was a kid. You can just sort of lay down
and UM, it might happen, or you know, people have
them in all different contexts and situations. So M and

(59:31):
our body experiences like I mentioned that thing of that
you feel yourself out of your physical body and you
experience the world from that out of body vantage points.
So that's what it feels like, UM. But astral projection
is the process of trying to make that happen in
an intentional way. And I guess the term astral projection

(59:52):
also comes from more like esoteric writings, So our body
is more like the scientific modern term UM, whereas astral
projection is more than classical, going back into hermetic traditions
and philosophy and all these esoteric ideas from the past.
They used to use that kind of context, and in

(01:00:14):
those ideas, you have multiple bodies in that philosophy. So
they say an etheric body, which is operates on this
plane on the physical plane, and then the astral body
operates on the astral plane, and then there's more after that.
I don't really subscribe to all that, but that's where
the term astral comes from. It literally comes from from

(01:00:38):
astra like meaning like like a star. So um, it
literally means like star projection or you know, like it
being like a star, making yourself like a starter, I guess, um,
So yeah, that's that's really the difference. But I've started
using independent consciousness experience aliens as well. That's my new

(01:01:02):
sort of term, which is basically because then it doesn't
focus so much on the idea of a body. It's
more like I can experience myself, my consciousness independent and
kind of out there in the world, functioning in its
own way. So it's kind of a bit different to
this thing that just focuses on sort of coming out

(01:01:23):
the body, you know, because often people sort of get
fixated on this idea of being above their body looking
back at themselves lead line below, And I think, what's
most interesting about our body experiences is this when your
consciousness expands and your experience like an interconnectedness with all
of life and reality you like. So it's kind of

(01:01:45):
when you just don't know what you're going to learn
and what you're going to experience. I think that's the
most fascinating part about it. In many ways, you're not
so focused on the separation of spirit and body. You're
just open to expansion of consciousness. Yeah, because at the
end of the day, I think no one really wants

(01:02:06):
to just come out of their body just so they
can look at themselves on their bed. Um. That sounds terrifying. Yeah,
that's not That's not really what most people are interested in.
Most people, I think, are interested in experiencing other levels
of reality. Um, you know, asking those questions like about
life after death, um, experiencing sort of interconnectedness with other life,

(01:02:32):
like other beings, all those kinds of things, you know,
asking those bigger questions. I think. So cool. All right, Well,
I'm going to sign up at Graham Nickels with two
els dot com. Yes, is that right. What's the name
of your book? Well, the first my first book is

(01:02:55):
called Avenues of the Human Spirit. Um, and that one
explores all of my own kind of journey and all
of that kind of thing like um, including how it's
sort of spiritually changed me and all that kind of stuff.
Coming from a very sort of working class background and
you know, very sort of ordinary kind of outlook on

(01:03:17):
life and how that shifted. And then the second book,
which is called Navigating the Out of Body Experience. That
one there's a sort of new edition coming out, but
it's also available with my course. Can I ask you
a really like a couple of very stupid questions that
are real m but fun. If you hate one, you

(01:03:40):
can be like, I don't want answer. Okay, if you
had a cult, what would be the dress code? Nudity? Nudity?
I agree fully agree, Like why did we I have
so many clothes, but like I would like to have

(01:04:02):
none except for maybe just one keep just for fun,
for fair, like just for pizzas, you know, not for anything,
like to cover anything, just not out of necessity. If
you were a ghost, which you might be a ghost
when you're projecting yourself over the living one, yeah, yeah,

(01:04:26):
which is a trip. But okay, so would you how
would you haunt and who would you haunt? There anybody
you would want to hunt, just like funk with um.
The thing is a lot of people probably like I
probably would like probably move around like try some people

(01:04:49):
there that some people there just move around the world,
like checking out, checking out what's really going on behind
the scenes, check out what's what the secret secrets of
the world really come down to. The Vatican would be interesting.
I think they're really up to behind the scenes. It

(01:05:10):
would be interesting behind like politics and major religions. I
just want to go see what's up. Well, thank you
so much Graham Nichols for being here, Thank you everybody
for listening, and keep on creeping on.