"Fairy Drag Queen Guinea Pig" (w/ Chappell Roan)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Look Marier, Oh, I see you, my own my Bowen.
Look over there is that culture. Yes, goodness, we lost culture,
ding Dong, ding Dong.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Lost culturistas calling was that the first time we were
ever out of sync? Boats well, honestly, boats very well.
You know what I was distracted thinking about.

Speaker 3 (00:20):
Uh huh. I'm surrounded by tops. We've got service tops,
camera tops, publicist top.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
You know, can I reveal something about Bowen Yang? This
is the this is the big thing that I wanted
to reveal on this podcast the other day in a
personal text exchange. So that's how you know it's real
because we never lie to each other. It's only ever transparent, real,
honest and more. Bowen goes. I think I legitimately might
be by, which is not the same thing as being
a top. Yeah, but the girl talking about you are

(00:50):
conflating like having a dick.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Okay, don't do sexual politics with me right now.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
All I'm saying is Bowen has a crush on Go ahead,
come out say it, Lucy Dakis.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
But I've always had this you love like wonderful. Lucy
and I exchanged a powerful glance at Forest Hills. This
is like three years ago. Oh my gosh, she was.
She was opening she and Maxihachi were opening for Connor Oberst,
and she had just got she had just done her set.
This is right when home Video came out her album.

(01:20):
And then I just like glanced over at her, and
then she glanced over at me, and we kind of
smiled at each other. And then that was it. And
ever since then, and then obviously since then, we've like
talked and hung out, but like something powerful about her.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
She talked and hung out, Like it's like, did you
did you watch you ever watch nobody wants this?

Speaker 3 (01:36):
That thing on Netflix?

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, when men kissing that song is like boo, But
it's like that Cynthia romantic pops up that played when
you looked at Lucy Dikas across the room. And don't
think we ever forgot about your thing with Katie Gavin.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Oh yeah, that's a good love triangle. This is my
trend alert. Here we go. It's always with a gay
woman and maybe there's a safe in that. It's like, well,
there's no stakes in this, so I can safely from
a far pine.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
So I can't wait to see how this episode turns out. Anyway,
because this actually is a huge moment in history, because
I can't believe this is true, but I think I
actually have two things on record on this podcast. One
was there's an episode where I literally go to you,
have you listened to Driver's License by Olivia Rodriguez?

Speaker 3 (02:26):
And now what is that?

Speaker 2 (02:27):
This is when it first came out, and that's on record,
and I believe me bringing up Chapel to you is
on record on this.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Podcast is also on record on this podcast as well.
It's on record for a lot of people who listen
to you and they were like, I'm gonna check this
girl out.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
It was late twenty twenty two when I first sort
of hurt her live but no, but then it was Fonda.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
It would know.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
It was April twenty twenty three. I think you were
at the Fonda, and I remember it was a special
evening because you could feel the energy and I remember
she sang Pink Pink Pony Club and then she was
saying the Pink Punty Club is here, and I was like,
oh wow, it really feels.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
Like it is here, like the La Show, it's about
La etcetera.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
That was a really special night and I left that
being like she's she's.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
One of she's the one, She's one of the ones,
and now she's here. She's a Pisces legend, she's a
Grammy winner. Everyone welcome, Hey, thank you.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
One Album of the Year at our Cultural Awards before
your album was even out, and I've always wanted to
ask you how you felt about that?

Speaker 4 (03:25):
Was really really I was like that is that makes sense?
It was like that is so funny.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
I'm dumb. It was.

Speaker 4 (03:35):
It's so silly.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
It was earned.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
I remember the song that changed everything for me. I
was like, wait, what the fuck was casual? Do a
lot of people say that.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
I didn't expect that. I'm like, literally, Casual was the
biggest bitch to get done. Really, it was like a
lot of tense moments because I was like, I think
it should be huge. I think it should be a
really big pop song, and my orrid was like, I
don't think. I think it's supposed to be sad, and
so I was like wrong, And that's happened so many

(04:05):
times about my songs, so like it was it's like
even the subway, Like I'm just I was like, nobody's
gonna gi a fuck about this.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Like I don't people are clamoring.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
Cling so like casual. To me, I was like, I'm
just gonna put it out and just not even care
because I am like synth pop girl. This is not
super synth pop heavy uh huh. But people liked it,
and now I love it. I always like things more
when I like it.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
You don't think it's both like like like a moody
song that also builds like this grandiosity, because that's that's
what we love about it.

Speaker 4 (04:40):
I think I get nervous writing songs that aren't like
beat heavy and like dance forward instead of it's kind
of like a wallowing and misery type of vibe.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
So I hear that. I mean when I left your show.
When I first saw you, I was like, I feel
like the only way to get it across is like
it feels like and this is lame to do this,
but it feels like Kesha meets like Annie Lennox.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
You have this like fun. You came out of this
like shit blonde wig and then.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
You came back out with your with your hair and
you were like it's me chapel chapel ron and we
were all like laughing because there's like aware unawareness and
there is like this is before you were calling what
you do drag, but there was such a huge drag element.

Speaker 3 (05:23):
You had a drag performer open up. Yeah, but yet
you have this like.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Haunting, gorgeous, like ethereal voice that I was like, I
don't think we have this out there.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
So that's what I meant by Like the Kasha meets Annie,
that's so sweet.

Speaker 4 (05:37):
I mean those are icon girls, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:39):
But that's fun casual on a song like that. It's
funny to hear you say you're like more comfortable doing
the beat heavy stuff because what really like took me
and maybe this is just the place I was in,
but was Coffee was Kaleidoscope, was like those moments that
are so like important and deep in your show Thank You.

Speaker 4 (05:57):
It is like so different live. You can really really
feel the the ballads because I'm actually better at performing
ballads like than I am pop songs, just because like
I have a ballad voice way more suited for him
than I'm mm hmmm. But so that's why I feel
like the ballads go so heavy life because I found better.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
Well, well, it's like it's it is just like it's
almost like a different singer, you know what I mean,
Because I guess It's like when you're needing to do
the pop thing, do you find yourself being like, Okay,
now I'm a different pop girl.

Speaker 3 (06:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
Yeah, you have to like I can't see Kaleidoscope and
then go, you know what they say, never Friday Night,
and you know it's really it is a different you
have to like lock into different characters. I feel like
for each song, especially like my king Kus Karma is
like I'm less worried about hitting the notes rather than
just like screaming as.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Giving hard as I can. You know that was an
important song for me at the time. I was like, oh,
this is It's an.

Speaker 4 (07:01):
Important song for me. Every day I feel like I'm
like I actually still feel pissed, Like I don't know
if I'll ever get over it. I don't know if
I'll if I'll ever not be mad.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
Is it kind of the song's fault though, that you're
locked into this like sentiment?

Speaker 4 (07:15):
Yeah, And that's what's so hard about writing about xes
is because you're locked and especially if you hate them,
and like I don't, luckily like I don't hate a
lot of my exes. I have so many songs about
my exes, about different people, about people I never dated,
but still in love with like and I don't hate them.
But it's really hard to sing songs about people that

(07:36):
you hate because you still hate them.

Speaker 3 (07:37):
Everybody gets too in life. How many do you have?

Speaker 4 (07:40):
How many exes?

Speaker 3 (07:41):
But you hate that you fucking hate exes that you
fucking hate. I think everyone gets it. Is it more
than two? Just just just just greater than or less
than two.

Speaker 4 (07:51):
I feel like high school people just don't care.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
Well, you know what your feelings were real, but it
doesn't My.

Speaker 4 (07:57):
Feelings were real, but it doesn't count. So one, Yeah,
that's only one. But I've dated like a lot of
dumb people. But you know that's not their fault.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's not their fault. You almost feel bad. It's almost
like punching down. And then all of a sudden they
get the distinction of like having a song, and that's
also hard. It's like, well, fuck you elicited such a
response from me that I felt moved to write this thing.

Speaker 4 (08:22):
It's like it just I get angry every time I
but that's good saying it. It's real. It's like it's
very real, and it's that's why it feels real about
the ballads. It's because like I am feeling that when
I'm icing coffee. There's been so many times that I
performed coffee and I'm just like, in the middle of
the song, was like, yeah, I'm done next, like because
I'm like.

Speaker 3 (08:42):
You actually ended it.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've just been like I can't. I
don't want to do this.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
That's so like form breaking and cool.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
It's just like it's just not worth the rest of
the show, you know, because like then you because you
always do ballots like in the middle. For me, I
do so then it's like a loop loop loop and
on like a high note. Yeah, And sometimes I'm just
like dreading it so much when like the ballad part,
the people like the Picture You vibe because like I

(09:13):
have my wig on the mic stand and I drag
my wig around and I make it like campy. But
I hated Picture You too because I was like this
is boring. I'm bored, Like I want to move around
on stage, out lights, I want like the pageantry. Yeah,
it's either like I do a fully ballad set or
I do all pop because and that's why I like festivals,

(09:35):
because there's not enough time to.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Do What about when you're doing a cover if you're
doing bad Romance?

Speaker 5 (09:41):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (09:41):
What is?

Speaker 3 (09:42):
What is is? Are you just channeling Gather? Are you
feeling are you like finding a way in for yourself?

Speaker 4 (09:47):
Bad Romance? Low key? I always felt like a fraud
singing really yes, because I was like, oh my god,
I can't live up to what I think I should
be in my fucking head for this song. I like.
And that's like the hardest part of like covering songs
that are so iconic. It's like people associate bad Romance

(10:10):
with like pure it was the biggest fucking pops. Yeah, Like,
and I think I just I do covers because I
want to feel like what's in my body, Like what
what will it feel like in my body to sing
Bad Romance in front of a crowd? And like that
is the closest I'll ever know to what Gaga maybe

(10:31):
feels like, Like I'm like, okay, this is how it
feels to like rage on stage to bad Romance, or like,
this is what it feels like to sing Barrakuda in
front of like fifty thousand people. And so I can
like leach off of the other artists experiences in that way,
you know. So, but Bad Romance is different because I

(10:53):
was just like she.

Speaker 3 (10:57):
I can't.

Speaker 4 (10:57):
I can't match it. That's what I realized. It's like
I can't match it.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
But does does the feeling of I kind of can
channel what it feels like to be Gaga singing this song?
Does that compete with the fraudulent feeling? Or is that
the same thing. It's like even Gaga's putting on a persona.

Speaker 4 (11:15):
I just think that I can't cover every song I
want to. I think it's like reserved. Yeah, like you know,
I think, and that's the coolest thing about pop. It's
like you can't. Fucking ballads like are more attainable, but pop.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, you know what's funny is it's like with good
Luck babe, it's so hard to sing, and like you
do see a lot of people taking cracks at it.
But you have one of those songs now where it's
like that's a Chapel Roone song.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
Do you feel like that, bitch?

Speaker 4 (11:45):
I can't even sing it.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
It's I can't sing.

Speaker 4 (11:48):
I cannot sing any original key like in a set
of songs if I was just doing it only maybe yeah,
But like I don't even when people sing my songs.
I'm just like I feel bad because like that I
know how hot like I have for you. I was
just like, good luck. I don't even care if you
fucking mess up because like thank you for trying. Yeah,

(12:10):
because I can't even nail it, like and also like
I can't sing like an impitch, like like I am
maybe seventy percent of the time, but the songs are
just that fucking hard. Yeah, And like it is cool
that sometimes, you know, I mean it feels good. Yeah,

(12:30):
it's feels good to be like.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
Yeah, that's my song.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, And I you so is it like when you're
when you're recording, is it?

Speaker 3 (12:41):
I guess why do I ask this question? I plays
the technique? Yeah, are you do you have the.

Speaker 2 (12:45):
Song out and you're like writing it straight through with
like Dan or Justin whoever you're writing with and then
you can like play it on the piano altogether. Or
are you going back and like revisiting different sections of
the song because that one really feels like it's so
many different things.

Speaker 4 (13:01):
That was well, it was originally called good Luck Jane,
and like it. We rewrote it. It was such a
it was so annoying. The best songs take the longest,
except Pink Pony Club that took one day and like
good luck, babe, we recorded the entire song four times
because I could not just like find a key that

(13:23):
made sense. And so I feel like for Naked and Manhattan,
it took two years to write the post chorus, which
is like touch me, touch me, touch me. So we
like come out usually with the chorus or like the
song title, and then we'll like create melodies around that,

(13:44):
and then we'll refine from there of like the lyrics,
and it's always a first edit. We hardly ever ever.
The only song that I used the first draft off
was Kaleidoscope, but like everything else is edit after edter
f and like you know, somebody's it feels like shit,

(14:06):
Yeah it has to if so Phenomenon felt like shit
to write.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
Really yes, And that's crazy too because it's such a
fun song. But it's like you're like banging your head
against the all being like.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
Fuck because it was like this is that puzzle was hard? Yeah,
it doesn't make sense like I was banging my head
against I've been banging my head against the wall with
the subway because I'm it just songs can work live.
Certain things can work live, and they do not work
in the studio or like for like my kink is Karma,

(14:36):
Like every performance I scream really loud at the end
of the song. I don't do that in the recorded version.
Doesn't fucking work. Same with the giver, it did not work.
Like first of all, I said the wrong thing on
s and I was supposed to say something else, like
I got nervous and said some like fucked up the wording.
It kind of like makes sense eighty percent, but what.

Speaker 3 (14:56):
Was the wording, like like the country boys can't treat
a woman.

Speaker 4 (14:59):
And only yeah, only it was like only.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
A woman knows how to treat a woman right or something.

Speaker 4 (15:05):
It was just it just didn't. It was like almost
made sense. But also I was like SNL, it was
so insane, Like it was just so scary. Your whole career,
your whole career. Everyone says nothing is harder than USNL,
nothing is harder than us sound it's like, but also
like that it is so live and there is no

(15:29):
like your band is live. That's like the scariest part.
It's like the movie Magic like girl, it's rare that
you see anyone fucking playing like anything for real on TV,
Like it is not most of the time. For real, Yeah,
because it just doesn't work like that works live but
not like on TV televice. It just the sound doesn't

(15:49):
work that way. So like I was just I was
so fucking stressed. So I'm like the fact that I
even performed the Giver and like made it through it's amazing.
But I know that, like it is so awesome to
see like everyone be like where the fuck is the bridge?
I'm like, boo woo woo. Do you not think I tried?

(16:11):
Do you not think? I do not think? I tried
over and over and tried different sayings and tried different
what the bridge was the hardest thing to figure out,
and like now I have like an even better idea
for it live. Like that's the other thing is like
the live shows matter just as much as the songs
themselves to me, because that is actually.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
Like that's a live you get, you get to mold
it and grow with it, and it gets to change, and.

Speaker 4 (16:38):
It like it just becomes a character in itself, just
like the live performance, Like everyone can kind of like
wait for that character of the song to come out.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
Because what you're talking about in terms of recording and
in terms of like cracking the subway let's say is
not to use this phrase again, but you have to.
That's that's locked in. You are locked into this thing,
and that's that's like the thing that people are going
to revisit the most readily and accessively. For what it's worth.
I feel like both ping Pony Club and the giver
on us and over fucking major. I was listening to

(17:10):
the SoundCloud the next day for weeks. Yeah, like that's
and I'm like, and then the track release, I'm like, fuck,
this is so hard for me sometimes when like an
artist puts out a live thing before the release and
then the track comes out and I'm like, I like
the live version better. Do you know why why I don't?

Speaker 4 (17:27):
It's called demoitis, demo demo witis, demoitis.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Okay, demo with demo the demos, so like what happens
school us?

Speaker 4 (17:39):
And this is like, this is to my detriment too,
This is to every person's stsment of like I get
a demo, I hear it, I play it for my friend,
and then I go back in and like, work on it,
play it to them again and they're like I just
liked the other one better. Yeah, And because you have
demoitis because you've like attatched so much to this, like

(18:03):
to you attach memories, like you attach all of these
things to this one version of the song. It's actually
not as good like as the actually recorded version, like
straight up because the song wasn't done. There was like
pitchiness all over the map, and like sometimes that's manged,

(18:24):
but it's not what I want my life. Yeah tracks,
but or sorry, my greatcorded tracks. But you fall in
love with what you hear first, yeah, because you hear
a different version and you're just gonna hate it because
it's different. That's the thing. I just go into new things.
I'm like expecting to hate it. It's like kay kayley,

(18:46):
like you are going to hate this, get past it
and like look at it for what it really is.
And that is how I get past to releasing how
I even release music, because it's like I'm gonna hate it.
Just live with it, like feel it and take a
step away because like all the people who have been
living with the giver on SoundCloud or whatever, of course

(19:09):
they're gonna hate it.

Speaker 3 (19:11):
That is like they're attached.

Speaker 4 (19:12):
They're attached, and like just because it's different, you'll hate
it because that's like human nature, you know. So I
was not surprised at all when people were like does
the magic And it's like, I think it has the magic.
I think, and that's really all that matters. And also
like people will just get over it because it's like

(19:34):
it just sounds better and for the subway, you know,
it's just gonna feel different, and different doesn't always mean bad.
You just have to like really take yourself out of
it and be like this is different and it's okay.

Speaker 3 (19:49):
And now you have two versions.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
And now you have two versions of the sound version remains, yeah,
and like that's the one you love, and there'll be
a third version when you come out and you know, perform.

Speaker 4 (19:57):
It at all these festivals coming up. Yeah, So it's
like it's demoitis. Just remind yourself. It's like like I
I there's so many TikTok songs that I'm like, oh
my god, this is so fun and I didn't realize
it was either a cover sped up or like something.
And then I hear the original version, I'm like, oh,
I like yeah, and I'm like, oh, I like the
TikTok one, and then I like go back and I'm

(20:20):
like actually, the artists put that out on purpose because
it actually fits the art better. Of course, so I
understand people were like where is the bridge? Of course
it was probably a man who decided that. I was like, no, baby,
I did decide that.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
Yah. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:38):
And also, do not forget this is a lesbian country song,
like this is like a big deal, Like this is
for me what I've always wanted to do, So it
may not be what you want.

Speaker 3 (20:51):
Yeah, right, right, right, right right, there's this like interesting
and title. I'm not going to say this, but it's
like you're not customer service, you know what I mean.
You are not there to like take in all of
these complaints and like synthesize them into it can't affect
your work.

Speaker 4 (21:07):
I had to stop reading.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
You got to stop reading. It's probably just I no.

Speaker 4 (21:12):
I deleted Instagram and TikTok off my phone on Sunday
because I was like, I actually like, if I want
to protect my creative psyche, like because I'm writing right
now nothing, I have to build a force field around
it and the things if I want to for sure
have a bad day, like one hundred percent guarantee. I
read the comments like and I just have to remind myself,

(21:34):
you touch it, yeah, it's like, okay, if you want
to open these, you're not going to feel Yeah. So
now it's just.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
Like never, it's never going to be worth it.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
It's never worth it, and like it just hurts my feelings.
I thought I would grow out of it hurting my feelings.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
Build a thicker skin or something.

Speaker 4 (21:52):
I thought I would become callous to it. And sometimes
I hate that I'm not callous, and then other times
I'm like, actually, thank god, I have feelings about people
hurting my feelings absolutely, because that is like sad. If
I don't know, maybe I'll get there one day, maybe
I can find a healthy medium, but I don't know.

(22:12):
People like saying it's not about like my art anymore,
all of a sudden, right, It's about me and how
I look or how I talk or my humor. It's
like that is the insufferable part, all of a sudden,
and not like the art. And so that's what hurts
my feeling because it's like when my art even you know,

(22:33):
like with the Giver, you are one hundred percent allowed
to judge it, hate it, love it, rip it, apart,
critique it, Like that is the point that is fair game.
It's art. I think, like everything else, I'm like, that's
outside of my art and performance. Stay with performance critique
it like that is visual art. Visually like critique my fashion,

(22:55):
that's fine. It's just when it comes to my personality
and like my mistakes that I make in public, it's
like it is rude.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
But the thing is, even if they are aren't mistakes,
human beings are allowed to make them, of course. And
I think that like one thing that people just whether
they can't reckon with it or they don't want to
because like people feel complicit in it is it's like
it was like unprecedented how quickly it changed for you
from here to here in terms of like the amount
of eyes on you and the out of mouths flapping

(23:29):
in regards.

Speaker 3 (23:30):
To what you did.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
So it's like even in a world where it's like
we've seen people go from like whatever it is, like
zero to sixthy or overnight success whatever that means, not
like this, Because I remember we were at Coachella and.

Speaker 4 (23:43):
We were like different now.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
We were so.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Excited at Coachella because we were like, oh and I
was with a couple of gays who didn't know who
you were yeteah, and that was you.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Know, a four.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yeah, it was a year while at.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
The end of that weekend, not only did everyone know
who you were, but everyone had an opinion on you,
et cetera. And then Gouve Bow was a whole other
fucking thing that was fifteen twenty different like think pieces,
and it's like that you're never gonna get You are
never gonna get what you want out of that one
individual human being. It's impossible, and I don't think there's
enough awareness of that or like, you know, people don't

(24:17):
take accountability for their own actions in that regard to
people get excited.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
Do you feel that? Do you guys feel that?

Speaker 3 (24:22):
I mean, we're not feeling on your level.

Speaker 4 (24:24):
No, But every level, of course, a film is a level.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
Every level is a level. The Culture Cure seventy six six,
Every level is a level.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
But of course, and it's also it's like when you
have something, when you have like something that you've put
out there that people have really connected with and people
have a relationship with you in that regard, it gets harder,
which is why I'm happy you just deleted the ship,
because you're in creative mode right now and you need
to be. I wanted to ask you, like, how is

(24:56):
it going in terms of you treating yourself create.

Speaker 4 (25:01):
Creatively the artist's way.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
I don't know if you have artists.

Speaker 4 (25:05):
That book taught me how to protect my creativity and
like how to be really treat myself really well and
be really gentle with myself. I am really good at
respecting my artistry. What I am not good at is
respecting like my feelings outside of artistry. Like it's so interesting.
I'm like very good at being gentle with like my

(25:28):
critiques on myself and like letting things. You know, it's
not going to be great the first time. You may
have to like water it and watch it grow. But
when it comes to like me making a mistake in life,
it's like that's when I'm not good at like giving
myself some grace or just like whatever. So my creativity
is very she's sacred and healthy. Like I just spent

(25:52):
the whole last week doing writing and I wrote some
songs I really love and like that's that is magic.
The fact that I could do that midst like the
past year, and the fact that I can't like do
a lot of things like I used to normally and
like feel normal. That's great, that's awesome. It worked, Like yeah,
it's just when it comes to like my self confidence

(26:14):
or comments or like you know, just saying something I
didn't mean or whatever. How that's how like when I'm
really hard.

Speaker 3 (26:22):
On myself, right when you know what that book does
early on, it tells you to like picture and think
back on the people early on in your life who
like try to like cut you off creatively. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I still I still go about this process with like
one specific person, this is the theater teacher or whatever.
You have to like treat them the same way that

(26:43):
you Chap will treat your exes. Yeah, you have to
like fucking go for the jugular in your brain with
these people. And you and I think my thing is
we have to keep doing it now now that like
there are these little side quests popping up where like, oh,
there's this person who like is being a little bogger,
this person's being a fucking asshole. Like it's a continuous

(27:04):
thing where you like have to tell these people who
make you feel like you're making a mistake, which you're not.
You can't even think of them as mistakes because these
are just people who are trying to like end you
creatively and you have to protect that.

Speaker 4 (27:17):
Yeah, you know, art is like for me, I'm such
I do have a thick skin around like my art.
It's really hard to see us something you see online
and be like, oh, maybe that's supposed to be funny, right,
but everyone's like that's serious and that's actually fucked up,
and it's like, huh, maybe it's just not one about

(27:40):
you or too serious.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Like well can we talk about Also, like when people
were dragging you for doing your mood dang thing.

Speaker 3 (27:46):
And then I was like, yeah, I was like, I
bet she thinks it's funny.

Speaker 4 (27:49):
I did. Yeah, I didn't feel anything.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
Sasha and I, Sasha Colby and I were talking about
and I was just like, I mean, yeah, everyone's mad.
I was like I'm not. I was like, I was like,
is she okay? And Sasha was like yeah, girl, she's laughing,
she's laughing. I was like, okay, Well then that's fine.

Speaker 4 (28:03):
I'm like the why people don't have to get mad
on my behalf right, but I'm for fine, yes, so
what is there to be mad about? Also, this is
what happens like that is andl it's comedy. Ye, Like
it is so lighthearted. It was like to me, harmless,
Oh my god. And for people to even if you

(28:23):
were to push it further harmless, it's like it's comedy.
I don't understand, Like I just don't know the line.

Speaker 3 (28:30):
I think people just get worked up over someone that
they are very It's like a it's like a love
bombing thing, or it's like limerens. It's like they're obsessed
with you and so they will die. It's parasocial.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
I mean, what it is is it's like I need
to protect this person they've expressed that they need help,
or I feel like I'm projecting what I might need
in that situation. But it's hard, Like you're saying, like
when you look online, is it supposed to be a joke?
Is this thing supposed be funny in a time when
we are.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
Nothing's funny right?

Speaker 3 (29:04):
When very it's not funny exactly.

Speaker 2 (29:07):
And meanwhile, it's like that was a really complicated, weird
time because it was like I remember getting text from
people being like are Bowen and Chapel okay? I was like,
first of all, they don't really know each other that well.
Second of all, I'm sure they are. Third of all,
why are we assuming that people don't have senses of humor.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
It's like it's chapelone, y'all.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
It's like I was watching your show and that's why
I was describing you as like there was like this
fun pop kesha, I'm ever come out in the ship
long wig and You're like, it's me Chapel Because if
we weren't supposed to know, I'm like, this girl is funny.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
We're all having fun. It's pop stardom.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
It's you know, even if like even if you.

Speaker 4 (29:43):
Didn't like think the mooting sketch was funny or anything,
you don't say.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
Anything, yeah right, there's always silence like you don't.

Speaker 4 (29:51):
You can always not say something right. And you know what,
people sticking up for me in that situation or not
sticking up for me made me feel no different. I
didn't feel protected and I didn't feel unprotected. So because
I didn't need it either way, sure, because I was
not offended.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
I wanted to have a serious conversation about this what
do you love about service topic?

Speaker 4 (30:14):
Okay, I didn't know what service topping.

Speaker 3 (30:16):
Was, but do you identify as one? I read?

Speaker 4 (30:21):
I read an article, You read an article and to
me is it like Stone Top.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
It's this is I had an encounter in the last year,
not not recently, but someone who was like, what do
you want me to do to make you feel good?
I'm a service Top said these words to me, like
I get off on watching someone take pleasure in what

(30:47):
I'm doing.

Speaker 4 (30:48):
True, Sorry, isn't that just sex? I'm so honest.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
That is thank you for saying me.

Speaker 4 (30:54):
So sorry, service Toop, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (30:57):
They are in their mind they are nervousing you, which
sometimes I mean, I'm sure we've been in situation and
I wouldn't even I don't even know if they would
identify it as kinky. But like sometimes it's like I
want to have sex because I want to feel good.
They want to have sex because they want to see
you feel good. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (31:15):
But that in turn makes them feel good, and so
it's you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Okay, so you're with you. Sometimes I think we go
crazy with the labels of everything.

Speaker 4 (31:22):
I don't understand, Okay, I mean, I that's why I
ask you if it's kinky, because it's like this may
not make me, like I may not understand this pleasure
thing for you, but I'm going to do it. Anyway,
because like you like to be dominated or something like whatever.
But to me, like I just thought that's how sex works.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
Yeah, but what is being a giver mean to you? Then?

Speaker 4 (31:49):
That just means I want to do things that make
you feel good. Yeah, like I'm a I will do things.
I will just give my time.

Speaker 3 (31:59):
And I will Yeah. And if I take that, if
I'm a taker, are I giving you something in return
by taking it? That's that I think that's where all
three of us are kind of getting a little mixed up.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
Maybe I'm lost too.

Speaker 3 (32:12):
I don't. I like I'm a pillow princess. I know
exactly where I am.

Speaker 4 (32:16):
Okay, good kidding?

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Are you? No?

Speaker 4 (32:22):
I'm not.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
I'm I'm sometimes a pillow princess. It feels good.

Speaker 4 (32:26):
I think maybe I just like so take it like takeer.
I wasn't really like actually thinking about anything when I was.
I was just like, oh, that's fun. Yeah, because a
giver and a taker, you like a taker? Like That's
literally where my mind went. But when I saw the
article about like servicetops and whatever, I was just like cool,
did not know that existed? Wasn't the intention? Like? I

(32:48):
just liked it. I do love that about pop cultures
that they will make something out of nothing, like you
know what I mean, Like they made this, people will
make like this and higher outline of like what each
thing means thing? Yeah, like what each character I played
means in like the lesbian community. And I literally was like,

(33:09):
don't know what you're talking about, but I just wanted
to wear a blazer like.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
I wanted to.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
You were talking on Apple about like really what it
was was you wanted a George straight type of song, right,
like you wanted to feel on stage like that kind
of swaggy country like character. Yeah, which I think is
different than like.

Speaker 3 (33:28):
I get off on making you O face.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
I thought that was like the point of set. It
is like for me, I give you pleasure and that
gives me pleasure.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
This is the healthiest discourse on sex anyone's ever had.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
But it you know, thank god doctor Ruth is dead. Hey,
she's rolling in her grave. One time I asked doctor
Ruth what she thought of prep and she didn't. She couldn't.
It did not compute. She was like what I was like.
It was at the Sunnins film Best. I was like,
it's so gay guys can have unprotected sex. She goes, well,
I hate that.

Speaker 4 (34:03):
Na, and then I was like, oh, oh okay.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
And then but it was fully doctor Ruth, and I'm
thinking she knows like what prep is and she did not.
And then I was like, Okay, maybe we've we've missed
each other in terms of like the sexual revolution.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
The reason I say this is actually a huge reset
for people. The way people talk about sex in this
day and age is that it has been so divorced
from pleasure.

Speaker 4 (34:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:27):
I think for a lot of people that's interesting.

Speaker 4 (34:29):
I mean that is why that is my experience when
I hooked up with men. That's how I knew I
was gay, Uh huh.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
Because it never was never felt like it was about
you or for you.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
No, I just felt so performative. Yeah, and like so
like I just did what I thought they wanted, even
if it didn't feel good. And maybe that's what to
me when I'm like, okay, service top is that do
service even if you don't want to. I don't know,

(35:00):
Like I just want to do what my partner makes
them feel good. And when I make them feel good,
that makes me feel good. Right, So I think I
would not really know what to do if someone I
was hooking up with was only service stone top.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
Uh huh.

Speaker 4 (35:17):
I don't think I would really know what to do
because I would want to do something for them.

Speaker 3 (35:21):
Huh. Yeah, are we saying that the term service top
is a little bit It feels like it's a given thing.
It's like saying, well, I'm a I'm a sensory bottom.
It's like, of course you are. You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (35:35):
Now you have something you asked, You're going to feel that, Like.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
Why I only I'm the best, I'm best when I
bottom and I can feel it. Well, yeah, what are
you talking about.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
That?

Speaker 4 (35:46):
That's crazy?

Speaker 5 (35:47):
It's no.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
But you know what though, like it takes time to like,
I think a lot of people say this stuff because
there it's it's more a thing of it's less them
expressing what they actually like and more people being like, no,
like I do have sexual agency, I do have a
sexual identity. When the fact is, it takes a lot
of time, totally, Like, I don't even think. It wasn't
until my late twenties that I was even having real

(36:10):
sex that like consciously took me out of what I
had seen in like porn or what which I do
think and I have so much respect for everyone, like
in the sexu work community, et cetera. But I do
think when you're ingesting a lot of it young, you
of course want to emulate the things that you see,
and that is like inherently not going to be natural
to you every time. So it's like it's like in

(36:31):
that way it becomes a teacher in a way that can.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
Be a little rocky. It wasn't.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
And I was just thinking sitting here, like, you know,
I had a great sexual experience like last week, and
I was like gratulation, thank you so much and shout
out verse also flip you yes, amazing.

Speaker 3 (36:50):
And I've been I've.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Really started like owning myself as like the bottom that
I am. But then all of a sudden love. So
but that's what I guess what I mean is it's
like I need to stop telling myself I find one thing.
I think we all need to stop telling ourselves are
one thing and be open to those different experiences and
expressions because I think a lot of it is just
us wanting to belong in something.

Speaker 4 (37:11):
Yeah, that is so real. It's so nice when there's
a label that fits you perfectly right, because that makes
you be like, ah, like when I what is the
what is the one that is where you only are
sexually attracted to people that you're friends with, It's like,
I don't know that it's a It's like you have
to have like a really strong relationship to like feel

(37:34):
like you want to hook up with.

Speaker 3 (37:35):
Them, and it's not even just as friendship makes what
is it?

Speaker 4 (37:40):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
I'm not sure it's it's and Rachel.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
But when I heard about that, I was like, oh,
that makes sense to me, Like I can't. I don't
want to just hook up with people I just met,
Like that is why I'm so uncomfortable when I'm hit on,
like because I'm like, I don't know you, yeah, right,
And that is why I get myself in trouble and
date my friends and then it's like you know what
I mean, that is always what happens, and so like

(38:10):
that's why I'm so it's such a turn off when
people like are so bold at the beginning, yeah, because
I'm like, I don't know, you got to watch.

Speaker 3 (38:17):
Those anyway, people are really bold at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
My experiences, Okay, you're this is for you, you know
what I mean, Like we've experienced some love bombing, and
it's like, I'm sure we all have, and it's like this,
there's no way you're you're like this.

Speaker 3 (38:33):
Yeah, I've even asked a question. I've sat back, cocked.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
The brow and been like how yeah, And then they
have another line, the one I the one I got.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
The one I got was we deserve to have good
things for good people. And I was read that.

Speaker 4 (38:52):
Motherfucker, where'd you read that next? And think of something smarter?

Speaker 3 (38:56):
But some but people like like period when.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
You're I'm never surprised anymore when people have rehearsed the
whole thing, Like you find out later they had a
bit that they were going to do when you sat
down at whatever it is they were meeting, Like they
researched things to say to you up top with your friends,
especially someone.

Speaker 4 (39:17):
Like you're talking about, like people that research things about you.

Speaker 2 (39:20):
Yeah, well yes, but also I'm going to say, I'm
going to say this joke about a celebrity because I
know he likes celebrities like that.

Speaker 4 (39:28):
No, I was thinking of like people that can't you
can't just google like whatever. I guess like for me,
that's like gone, and probably like for you, like people,
it's gone hard it's gone. Like people can like kind
of guess what you might like and like like manipulate
a sentence that maybe would work best for you because

(39:49):
they know you like a regular bar. I'm always you know,
before I guess before last year, before last year. If
I like had to pick up line, I'd be like,
I can only laugh. It's hilarious because I'm just like,
but they had to try.

Speaker 3 (40:06):
You know what.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
That's the thing is. It's like they're trying, and everyone's trying.
It's like some people think and if I go in
with an arsenal of things to say and I really like,
you know, dress for Hirst, what this is going to be,
I'll feel better about it. But you know, sometimes it's
just like it is worth being like, Okay, when are
we going to get to the real you? Because because

(40:27):
they could take a long time.

Speaker 3 (40:28):
You like, you know.

Speaker 4 (40:30):
Do you feel like if people know who you are,
it's like, uh, turn off, turn on or just be honest. Yeah, right, yeah,
it does depend, but I am very weary if someone
knows who If someone is a fan and I like

(40:50):
have hit on them or something and like started like
a relationship with them and I did not know they
were a fan. That is scary to me because I'm
I've embarrassed, and also I'm like, I don't trust you,
and like are you screenshotting everything we're saying?

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Are you?

Speaker 4 (41:07):
I just get really, I've become so paranoid about that stuff.
Like I'm like, girl, I'll just talk like this all
the time because it was freaking.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
The lip readers. We were talking about that recently. It's like, which,
God bless the lip readers.

Speaker 4 (41:20):
We need those girls.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
We do. It is fun when you when you want
to know and you're on the other side of it.

Speaker 4 (41:24):
But like right all the time, I'll tell you that.

Speaker 3 (41:27):
At the Grammys, You're like, it's fucking open concepts. It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
All these people are looking down at you. It's almost
like I signed for that one thing that they really did.
This is the recording out of Me had posted like
watch Chapel, watch Benson Boone, or like watch Sabrina Carpenter
watching this person, and it's just like, why are we
watching these artists watch the thing? And then all of
a sudden, you're like your finger starts going like should

(41:54):
I click?

Speaker 3 (41:55):
And you're like, I mean, no, it's weird, but why
is that available?

Speaker 4 (41:58):
Because they want so bad to catch you. That's the
only reason. They just want to fucking catch you.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Why wouldn't you be paranoid if like that's on your mind.

Speaker 4 (42:08):
That's what I'm thinking about always. I'm just like I
have to think about all the time. I won't win.
It's not that I can or can't win. I won't. Like,
no matter what, Lily, I will not win this.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
You're not customer service, that's all.

Speaker 4 (42:22):
But also it's like I'm not customer service, and it's
everyone else's expectation, like against my entire humanity, Like it's
so crazy, but it's not their fault. It's like, that's
how celebrity culture is where we find our happiness. Are
like depths of hell. And for the first time your

(42:46):
comment matters, for the first time, something you say people notice.
And that's why the big comments are all mean, because
for the first time, your voice matters in a country
where you've been told that you never will matter. Yeah.
So that's why I think the psychologist is my personal

(43:06):
psychology around why people hate celebrities online. That's like why
the biggest all you look at the comments, the biggest
ones are the meanest, right because finally, Finally, finally, finally,
something you say is validated. Yeah, after all this time,
after you feeling so helpless, after everyone turning you down

(43:28):
and saying that you don't matter, the mean parts of
you do right online, and so like, I don't blame people.
Of course they're gonna hate. It's like all that there
is left is.

Speaker 3 (43:39):
To be mean because it's incentivizing a mean snarchy.

Speaker 4 (43:43):
And the meaner you are, like, the more attention you get, right, But.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
It doesn't get them, like, it doesn't get them past
the ceiling of like the comment section, right, the comment.

Speaker 4 (43:55):
Section, that's the other thing. It doesn't get you past
the comics. Like, it's not like it's giving a job.
It's not like it's getting you respect. It's not like
it's getting you like friends.

Speaker 3 (44:04):
Mm hmm. It's awful because everybody, and I'm saying everybody
at the highest levels of like this kind of stardom,
that that is like what they're dealing with. It is
I'm just telling I'm just telling everybody like from like
like from what I've seen, which is not too much,

(44:25):
but it's like, oh shit, like even in small glimpses
like at us and now it's like we just we
just you just cycle through like different case studies and
fame and it's just that's the common thread and it's
really fucked up. Anyway, we should move on.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
We want to ask you the question that we ask
all of our guests, which is Chapel roam, what was
the culture that made you?

Speaker 3 (44:49):
Say? Culture was for you?

Speaker 2 (44:51):
So basically this can be a movie, a music artist, environmental,
something about growing up, just whatever it means to you,
the culture that.

Speaker 3 (44:59):
Made you you.

Speaker 4 (45:00):
I'm really glad that guinea pigs have their own culture
online because I'm a guinea pick girl.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Wow, is this going to be I ever talked about that?

Speaker 4 (45:11):
A lot of people don't know that about the guinea.

Speaker 3 (45:13):
Pigs were in We're on SNL for the Giver Oh in.

Speaker 4 (45:17):
The background, yes for animal. Yes, the guinea pigs were
back there.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
Talk about guinea pig culture.

Speaker 4 (45:23):
Well, I'm just obsessed with them. I had four a time,
but they passed away. But I I am obsessed with them.
I think they're the cutest animals on earth. I worked
out a guinea I volunteered out of Guinea Pig Rescue
for a year. I love rodents in general, and I

(45:46):
love the guinea pig community online is awesome. I love
that community. I think the culture and like all seriousness
that made me feel like me was drag. Yes, at first,
I was very freaked out by drag. I was like,
I was like the clutch, the.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
Pearls girl, is that coming from where you're where you
come from? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (46:07):
Yeah, I'd never like the first time I went to
a drag show, I was eighteen seventeen or eighteen, and
it was Hamburger Mary's Oh Wow, And I was like,
oh my god, why do they keep saying anus. That's disgusting.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
They do that?

Speaker 4 (46:25):
Yeah, And I was like I just went I was like,
that was so fun, But why did they have to
just make everything so.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
I feel strange?

Speaker 4 (46:32):
I was like yes, and I was like what the hell?
And then I just got addicted to it. So and
that has taken like a long time. Yeah, like that
is in my actually in my blood now and like
to realize all of that. How it freaked me out
at first was really just me not having any gay
culture at all expressed in my life whatsoever. So like yeah,

(46:56):
and there was no sarcasm like that. There was no
like I had no idea who John Waters was like
and like it was so cool to like see a
whole community of people being gross on purpose for the
sake of being, for the sake of pearl clutching. Yes, yes,
like that is amazing to me. I love tackiness. I

(47:16):
fucking love bad hair, I love bad style. I love cameltoe,
I love I love, love love a bad dye job.
I love roots, I love like. I fucking love when
people get their teeth knocked out. I love like I
love that ship. Yeah, give me a nipslib. That's the

(47:38):
least you could do. Like, Yeah, So that culture of
like trashy on purpose is so freeing to Yes, yes, yes,
I love that and the guinea pig culture. And I
also really appreciate the two girls don't remember the names
who also believed in fairies with me. I love the
fairy culture. I think that they're real. Maybe I don't.

(48:00):
I'm just gonna say that. And I really appreciate the
fairy culture because fairies make me happy. And I lied
to everyone that I saw them.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
You are a fairy guinea pig. You did you know that?
And you know that you know you've always known a
deep down I like you know.

Speaker 4 (48:17):
I love But also the there's been a real awakening
which I grew up on the Barbie movies, like the
Crazy Crazy. I saw a compilation the other day of
the Barbie Animals of the How fucking crazy it was,

(48:37):
and like Barbie raised me.

Speaker 3 (48:39):
Yeah, I think fairies and Barbie is.

Speaker 4 (48:41):
A Barbie fairy Toopia, and that is where Bibble came from.
And Bibble is basically a flying guinea pig.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
So yeah, do you feel like the fairies visit you
when you're writing, when you're being creative? Are you channeling
the fairies in a way? Are the fairies in the walls?
And what are your muses? Like? Like, I think the
fairies are your muse.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
I usually I would say yes, fairies visit me. But
I think like the way I write now is from
like I take things that are really fucked up and
then make it really like I don't know, Like it's
the same with like the subway. The lyrics are usually
always darker, right, and they become like very very dark,

(49:21):
and then.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
They become like light do a brightening draft?

Speaker 4 (49:24):
Yeah yeah, yeah, so it's always like heavy dark and
then you know, then the fairies come and twinkle their
fairy does and it's like, yeah, maybe all of a
sudden can actually be on the radio. Sorry, I've given
like three cultures.

Speaker 3 (49:38):
They're good because they're sharing to each other. Oh, you
need to keep sharing.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
I want to return to guinea pigs the sentence of
the day because I had hamsters when I was little
and one of the most traumatic things I think I've
ever been through.

Speaker 4 (49:51):
I tell you every story.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
They were named Chippendale and one day my dad said
I have to talk to you and I was like what,
And then he basically was like, we don't have Ship
and Dale anymore. I was like, what they had eaten
each other chapel, That's what happened. They had eaten each
other alive. I don't know if it was throws of passion.
I don't know if they had a gay fight.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
They ate each other.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
At the same time, Chip and Dale killed each other.
It was wh what is that?

Speaker 3 (50:20):
Beta fish? They fight each other, they kill each other.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
It couldn't compute. And now getting older and knowing human
nature and animal nature, I sort of get it. Like
they were cooped up together for a long time with
they were Chip and Dale.

Speaker 4 (50:33):
That's hard. I was Spoisers territory.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
They're vicious it's true, but what were they territorial over
like the space they.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Just you know what, I'm five guinea pigs, Yes, I
can't normally most of the time you can't have two
more than two together, and like you're lucky if they
bond correctly as two boys, like you have to like
bond them correctly or else they will fucking like try
to kill each other. So maybe they just like did

(51:01):
not get what they were just not bonded correctly, or
they were Ah, they're hamster. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Did you have gay ones?

Speaker 4 (51:11):
I only had girls do really well with like multiple girls.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
God, it's not always the case, it is it always
is the case.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
Do you want to like have one now to like
have around with you?

Speaker 4 (51:23):
I wish I had there? What is so like guinea
pigs are not really children's pets, Like they're way more
difficult to take care of than a dog or a cat. Really, yes,
because you can't just like pour them a bowl of food,
like they need a specific type of hay, they need

(51:44):
vitamin C, like they need a specific type of fruits
and vegetables, Like you have to give them supplements and
you also like have to clean their cage. They can
only have certain types of bedding. You have to exercise them.
You can't just let them wander around like they're not
potty train. They have to be cleaned and like they
need bubble bats, they need their nails shrimped. It's like

(52:05):
not easy. So we had very so many people come
to the rescue. We're like, this is my first pet.
I'm nine, and I'm like, oh, And I think that's
why so many people have so many traumatic stories, because
they're actually such difficult pets to.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
And maybe I maybe we just didn't know that because
I'm imagining it's the same, like sociologically, I guess because
they killed each other, right.

Speaker 4 (52:27):
But everyone has a crazy hamster, guinea picker, gerble story, gurbles.

Speaker 3 (52:32):
I can relate to the rodents. I'm a rodent girl. Yes,
well okay, and maintenance. I'm I'm little. You need vitamin
C repellets.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
I need my Hey, hon, can I tell you I
might have beendeed deficient?

Speaker 4 (52:53):
Are you?

Speaker 2 (52:54):
So?

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Do you take like a vitamin decapsule?

Speaker 2 (52:56):
I must, you should, Yeah, But it's like sometimes getting
out there in the sun is like, you know, it's
better in theory, but then you get sunburnt.

Speaker 4 (53:07):
Can I ask you, Yeah, why do you speaking of
the sun in New York cruising?

Speaker 3 (53:13):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (53:15):
And I this is like I someone asked me this,
like a gay guy friend asked me the other day
of like why don't lesbian's cruise?

Speaker 3 (53:21):
Huh?

Speaker 4 (53:22):
And I want to know what you think.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
This is what I think.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
I think because gay sex is a lot more transactional
and a lot more projection y. So it's like, actually,
it's funny like this, this person that I was sleeping with,
we went on our first date and he goes, yeah,
I don't hook up a lot because I feel that
it's a lot to do with like projection, and I
don't really need that, Like talking about what we were talking
about earlier about how like sex actually is like two

(53:48):
people coming together and you usually can.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
I find this too.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
It's like when you have like good eye contact with
someone or like the conversation is easy. That's why people
talk about like the banter, and it like just directly
translates because that's what this person was looking.

Speaker 3 (54:02):
For and is looking for.

Speaker 2 (54:03):
And I think even more me and I've never really
done like the cruisy thing and the like random hookup thing,
Like of course I've done I've I've experienced it and
like experimented, but like I never felt comfortable going in
and out of those situations. A lot of people do
and like that's great, But I think it has to
do with just what gay guys are looking for and

(54:26):
needing out of sex, and it's just transactional.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
Yeah, it can live in a marketplace, it can live
in like a bathhouse or a park. It can live.
There's a space for it. Whereas like, just to generalize,
I feel like among lesbians it's like it's very there's
no like end point to sex. Necessarily it's emotional. It's like, yeah,
it's it's achievement based. It's not achievement based, as that
you're investing time and energy and care for each other

(54:52):
in a way that like is not going to be
condensed into like a sexual internection. Yeah, that's our theory.

Speaker 4 (54:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
Does that sound right? I do.

Speaker 4 (55:00):
No. I imagine you were like, well, the answer is no,
I don't know what. I don't know the answer. I've
just been because I was naive and I went to
Central Park and I was like, everybody is loving the sun.
It's just out in this you know.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
It's like.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
Yeah, And I was like they're like someone was like,
they're cruising and I was like, I was like, what
cruise cruising? What and so And I was like, so,
I've just been asking, like take on cruising and also
why people think that it's not in the lesbian culture
as much. I'm sure it is in some capacity that
I just don't know about. Yeah, I'm very out of

(55:39):
the loop, but I am just I'm very curious about
it what people's takes are, especially in New York because
it's like maybe it is in San Francisco more too,
but I don't really know about it.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
In La La, I think, well, l A is l
A is weird because it's it's it's the king of.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
This looking over your shoulder. It's constant but and you
know what it is.

Speaker 2 (56:04):
It's like it's not even cruising as much as it
Moore is just like constant comparison and like wondering how
if you can do better. That's kind of and it's
not to again, I hate dragging a whole city because
I love La and like, but I have found with
dating it is a lot harder, a lot.

Speaker 4 (56:22):
Hard People say that I came to New York because
La is really hard to date.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
In especially when like you're not like because now I'm
I just turned thirty five. It's like I'm kind of
looking now for something that could be my next like relationship.
And I understand this, Like I get it, I whatever,
But it can be a little demoralizing as you get
older and are looking for something else. So better to

(56:46):
just take yourself out of the environment entirely, which is
why I moved to New York.

Speaker 3 (56:49):
You can move back, so New York. We don't have
our fucking phone stolen as much at the abbey. Wait,
this is a thing. Did have you heard about this
pony club? You talked about it? Is it you doing it?
We've all had our phone stolen. I went to you,
I've never had my phone stolen. I would guys have

(57:11):
I've had my phone stolen, Not.

Speaker 4 (57:12):
At that, not at the abbey, but I've had three
friends and one night I have their phone stolen.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
Yes, And you know what they were saying, it was
it was the theory was that it was a bunch
of short women to women because they could just not
that they're picking on the women, But that was the
theory they were. They were picking on me.

Speaker 4 (57:30):
I'm sorry, why not short guys. The short guy said
that it was.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
It was the short women, they said, but there were
it was. It became like epidemic there for a while
in La.

Speaker 4 (57:45):
It's crazy. It's like, I don't know, my friend just
got his phone stolen off the grove. So the grove
crazy out there right now at the grove.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Where are you at the Oh my god?

Speaker 4 (57:59):
Is it? Oh?

Speaker 3 (58:00):
Was it not a l o?

Speaker 2 (58:01):
I have no idea. I'm butchering it. Send us clothes
and maybe we'll figure it out. No, but yeah, no,
the grove. Wow, imagine cruising at the grove.

Speaker 3 (58:10):
It happened.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
One time I saw my favorite porn star at the grove.
Should I say who it is?

Speaker 4 (58:15):
Now?

Speaker 3 (58:15):
His name is Chris Damned. He's great and I saw Damned.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Yeah, that's awesome. But he's not like demonic. He's like
quite lovely.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
I love it.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
But by the way, a lot of people are my favorites,
and I don't have one favorite. At the time, I
was gagged because there he was at the grove. Yeah,
I was like, wow, we're a star star.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
It's time. Oh my god, it might be time. I
don't think so, honey, I don't think so, honey.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
And I like, I was sort of going back and
forth about what I was going to do. I guess
I'll do this, okay, because we also had a caffeine
conversation before getting on.

Speaker 3 (58:58):
Yeah, okay, I'll do that. Hey, so this is I
don't think so honey.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
It's our one minute segment where we take sixty seconds
aka one minute if you really think about it.

Speaker 3 (59:06):
To rip something apart in culture. And here we go.
This is Matt Rogers. I don't think so many time starts. Now.
I don't think, so honey that coffee gives you coffee breath.

Speaker 4 (59:14):
That sucks.

Speaker 3 (59:15):
We need to figure it out.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Like actually wake up in the morning and I'm become
that person where I open my eyes and I need caffeine.
I don't think, so honey that it's gonna change anytime soon.
Our guest is off caffeine, and I feel like I'm
inspired by that. But it's just another one of my
strange addictions. I now wake up in the morning, and
also now I have relationships with the coffee shops. Those
are my girls. I have my girls in LA and

(59:38):
I have my girls in New York. And I just
realized in this moment I'm leaving my apartment in La
and I'm leaving my girls. Oh that's really hardly so
back to what I was there, So sweet Fernanda. She
also stands Lonna del Rush and we and like literally
when I said I was going to Coachella, she goes,
I love Lana.

Speaker 3 (59:56):
She did seconds and so she's an icon.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
But listen, the thing about coffee is it gives you
coffee breath, which is so bad for kissing, speaking, breathing,
et cetera and more. And I just want to figure
out a way to get my fix of caffeine and
not have coffee breath. I guess here it is Dia, Coke, Celsius, etcetera.
But I love coffee. I don't think so, Hony, that's
one minute.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Like I'm now at the place where you just gotta
you just gotta go cold turkey on it. I think,
I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
But it's like now it's like so built into my
life getting a cold brew right away first thing when.

Speaker 3 (01:00:28):
You wake up.

Speaker 4 (01:00:29):
I quit over Christmas break And was it just because
like you were getting Oh yeah, I was just like
going crazy. I was like already too anxious and so
like I was like, if I want to actually calm down.
I have to take every stimulant away. Yeah, very stimulant.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
So wait, do you smoke weed?

Speaker 4 (01:00:47):
Not right now?

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Not right now?

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Yeah, so like basically, are you in a place right
now of like there's nothing going in good.

Speaker 4 (01:00:54):
I wish let me say that there's an asterisk. I
want to fuck ton of drugs though, like yeah, yeah, yea,
I'm like, but it's not recreational. No, not right now, no, queen,
Yeah yeah, come on, I'm yeah, I've got my I
also have insomnia, so like, and I'm bipolar. So it's
like really hard if you are like not sleeping and

(01:01:15):
doing weed.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
Yeah, so it's cocktail.

Speaker 4 (01:01:20):
The cocktail. But I do love an edible. I do
love shrimps. Thank you, Silo for sending me a box.
I don't know how you did that legally.

Speaker 2 (01:01:26):
Hey, silou, and we can love that I know next time.

Speaker 4 (01:01:33):
But I agree with you, it's really hard. Quitting caffeine
sucks for four weeks straight, well because then you're Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
What we're not reckoning with is it is a drug totally.
It is a drug.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
Like and now I actually wondered about that, like people
that are in AA and stuff, like I wonder what
the relationship is with caffeine.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
I'm sure there's a support group out there for you.
That's wild. I think we can. Let's do it together. Well,
it's like added to the list.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
I'm now a place where it's just like I don't
know why I keep doing this, but I just keep
I'm moving to a new apartment in New York, and
I keep associating that with the day my new life
will begin. But like, you can't. That's like, that's like
addicts speak to you to yourself. It's like, well, I'll
be I'll be sober from this thing by age thirty five,
or like I'll just stop doing this on May twelve,

(01:02:20):
you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
It's like it's like, but why wouldn't you just stop
doing it now?

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
So that's me with caffeine, and this would solve my
coffee breath problem period. I think very afraid of people,
like I think the one of the worst things that
could happen is for.

Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
People to be like, oh, he has bad breath. That's bad.

Speaker 4 (01:02:38):
That is my worst nightmare.

Speaker 3 (01:02:41):
Yeah, or someone saying that don't worry anyway, don't worry about.

Speaker 2 (01:02:45):
It, okay, bowing yang, you actually came in galvanized today
I did. Okay, so this is bowing yang' I don't
think so many time starts now, I don't think.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
So many amper sands. You're doing too much. Oh why
do you look like that? Why do you look like other? Ways?
Stay in one lane, figure out one Look. I'm gonna
draw an ampersanda right now. Okay, and now I have
carple tunnel. That is crazy that shape, And here's I
looked it up. This is what ampersanda is short for,
quote unquote and per se and honey, just say and

(01:03:18):
just say, and you will never be plus. You will
never be universal, worldwide global like plus is good luck
finding an am person in any non Latin based writing system.
Plus is here to stay. Plus everyone on earth, from
children to elders, knows what plus means. It will sit
in for and just fine. And if you're too lazy

(01:03:39):
to write a n D, honey, you're in for a
root awakening. Lots of other challenges in life up ahead
for you. It's not saving you time, it's gonna give
you wrist problems. And you're being stupid. And that's what
I didn't stick the landing, No, No, you did that
was great. That was epic universe. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
I have to say, especially as two people who often
are Matt and Bowen and the em person is in there,
don't do it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
Don't do it. From now on, it's Matt plus Bowen, right,
Matt plus Bowen. We were doing plus. I used to
nam persan. Recently, I'm gonna I'm gonna start to retroactively.
You ended am person today. Thank you, Thank you so much.
Sorry thoughts on a person?

Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
I use it everything.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
No, wait, when you're doing what I.

Speaker 4 (01:04:24):
Will, I write incursive and so it's like I'm like,
I use an signed all the time.

Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
Though, how do you write it? How do you write?

Speaker 4 (01:04:32):
I don't do that crazy eight thing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
It's the crazy eight thing is that you do the
reverse three in the line down the middle.

Speaker 4 (01:04:37):
I just go it looks like an upside down four.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
No, that's a plus sign.

Speaker 4 (01:04:41):
Yeah, okay, then I do that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
Wait wait, wait, because you've also done it. I don't
think so, honey, on the letter nine.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
On the letter nine, the number nine, sassame street, reach out.
You need us there to teach the children. Wait, the
number nine.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
So wait, if you don't like am percent, how can
you stand by the number eight because.

Speaker 3 (01:05:00):
Eight represents the number eight, and but it still will
give you a carpor tunnel if asked to write it,
if to ask with writing it. And it's easier for
me to write eight the numeral than it is to
write E I, G H T. And is barely saving
you any time from writing. And I do agree that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
Handwriting and ampersand is like a mind fuck. But you know,
if you can figure it out, which seems I support.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
Okay, Chapel, I feel like you you you wrote your
topic down and we don't know what it is yet.

Speaker 4 (01:05:29):
This is how I do it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
This is like, okay, is this the creative process? Are
you always carrying around like a moleskin?

Speaker 4 (01:05:36):
This isn't mine?

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
This is no I know, but but I'm but I'm
in a world where it is yours, and that's really good.

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
Thank you. Okay, it's time, this is Chapel rounds. I
don't think so, honey. Her time starts now.

Speaker 4 (01:05:51):
My I don't think so, honey. Is stop. Let people
get venus. Let let the people have bad venir, let
them have good veneers, let them fall out, let them
be pure white, let them look like coffee. Let them
who cares if they don't fit. What if they love them?
What if people love their Veneers? What if they saved

(01:06:14):
up so long to get these veneers? Thirty seconds and
then you say that they look fucked up. Don't say
that to them. Let the girls get veneers, yes, like,
let them look like buck teeth, and you know what,
it's okay if they.

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
Talk different fifteen seconds.

Speaker 4 (01:06:33):
That's what happens. When you change your teeth, You're just
gonna look and talk different, and it's okay. Stop dragging them.
Your teeth are probably busted, which is fine. But you
know what, I support you if you got veneers and
you're busted.

Speaker 2 (01:06:46):
Yeah, and that's one minute. Okay, this is important. Way,
this is amazing. It's very American of people to be like,
I know how teeth are supposed to look.

Speaker 4 (01:06:55):
Do you want to know my hottest take? How people
drag cosmetic surgery and drag cosbic whatever. Yeah, you know
what's fucking cosmetic braces?

Speaker 3 (01:07:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:07:04):
So you want to tell me you haven't had cosmetic
work done, but you've had.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Braces, hmm, got them? Got them?

Speaker 4 (01:07:10):
Don't tell me that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:11):
We've all had gender affirming care. It all me me
shaving my fucking stubble this morning is g ac wow.
Not to go there, but are you speaking? And I
will say this is especially meaningful coming from you because
I feel like your your your orthodontire is very pristine.

Speaker 4 (01:07:34):
Because I had fucking I had work done my teeth. Yeah,
I had fucking visi line for years because I could
afford it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Right, how what was the invisiline process like for you?
I'm actually flirting with it in my in my brain
because people have started to get a little mean about
my teeth.

Speaker 4 (01:07:51):
Because they're American.

Speaker 3 (01:07:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:52):
Wow, it's only in the United States that it's fucking
people are obsessed, obsessed, obsessed, And if you do have
to and they're fucking yellow, they better not be. Like
in reality, bitch, you have to have money to do
this ship right, it's so expensive. No one has fucking healthcare.
No one has four fucking braces. Like, so I say

(01:08:14):
let them be. I say let it be. We need
girls with different teas.

Speaker 3 (01:08:17):
I never thought I had bade you bad. You know
what it is. It's like they're just okay. So this
was living. This is the truth. This is the truth
I was. I did. I did a very small role
in a.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
Movie called Lyle Law Crocodile, a huge movie called you
Know called My co stars Shawn Mendes as the crocodile
and Constance wu As herself as a character. But she
was what was your character? So I played like a
Ryan Seacrest, like America's got talent, like hosts. Because of
course Lyle Lyle goes and wiles the judges at the end.

(01:08:52):
So the little boy playing the lead I'm saying this
publicly comes over me, like runs over to me and goes,
I'm like, hey, what's up? He goes, you have sharp
teeth like a shark.

Speaker 3 (01:09:02):
And I go literally go, you can't say that to people,
and he just runs away. And I was like, this.

Speaker 4 (01:09:09):
Little actor just dragged me to hell.

Speaker 3 (01:09:12):
And then you know what happened. I went into the
goddamn bathroom and went like this.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
Pretty shine a line almost.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
Like AMI thinking like what is wrong?

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
And then they.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
Started saying like he needs braces. But I also want
to tell you I tuck it on one side of
my mouth. So but this is the stuff you Americans
have gotten in my head.

Speaker 3 (01:09:37):
And then one guy I was I was dating said
never change the gap, and change the gap. No, no, no,
everybody I've dated.

Speaker 4 (01:09:45):
I've dated a lot of different teeth, and I like
them all.

Speaker 3 (01:09:51):
Yeah, as long.

Speaker 4 (01:09:52):
As you don't have bad breath.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
Who fucking cares, right, that's my coffee.

Speaker 4 (01:09:57):
I love it. I love it. I love when people
have gold teeth. I love it when people have missing teeth.
I love it. Yes, I just like, let's see, it's
also just like, bitch, so parents could never fucking afford
their kids to have racist when you grow up, that's
what's what happens.

Speaker 3 (01:10:11):
I know.

Speaker 4 (01:10:12):
And you know what, it's fucking hell to have races,
and some people really need them because or al s
they'll have actual like jaw problems, or like teeth will
start falling out because it's overcrowding whatever. Bitch. Yeah, like,
but I was actually admiring your teeth the whole time.
Oh really, yeah, I was like, it's so they're so
cute and right, and you have very.

Speaker 3 (01:10:31):
White teeth too. But I thank you for saying this
important thing about let veneers be yellow, because they should
be a little yellow, because then someone's gonna say, well,
those veneers are too white. It's like there's you can't
win with them.

Speaker 4 (01:10:45):
They won't win. You won't win.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
That's important. It's not about can't. It's not about should.

Speaker 4 (01:10:54):
Yeah, or you might win, you will not. That's for
my therapist on Monday.

Speaker 3 (01:11:00):
Honestly, are you going once a week?

Speaker 4 (01:11:02):
Maybe? I'much twice, I mean twice a week. I have
my biodynamic cranial sacral therapy, I have my acupuncture, I
have my Oh.

Speaker 3 (01:11:11):
My girls, I need to try acupuncture. Acupuncture will slag.

Speaker 4 (01:11:15):
Really, I had to do it like ten times until
I really was like, I understand it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
It takes a minute, it takes a se what do
you mean, like physically it's hard to adjust to it
or just want to because.

Speaker 4 (01:11:26):
Like you know, you're like I was trained in like
only medicine works, like only like taking medicine works, and
so whenever I don't have like an immediate like I
take child and then I feel better if I go
and get acupuncture, and I'm like, nothing's different. Yeah, I
was like does this work? I don't know. And it's
like with wellness medicine, you just it's about yeah, you

(01:11:48):
have to keep fucking going and showing up. And like
I realized if like the actual acupuncture itself wasn't doing
anything differently, I knew that every time I walked in there,
I immediately got called where Yeah, and that's you know,
and now I believe that it's doing something. It is
you know, yeah, it's doing both now right.

Speaker 3 (01:12:08):
I love that I'm just lying there for like a
half hour and I can't do anything. Yeah, it's kind
of cool.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (01:12:13):
And it's kind of cool.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
Today was kind of cool. Today was very cool. And
we were so happy that you were able to come.
Like we've been wanting to do this with you for
such a long time and we are you know obviously
you know it feels like even silly to say, but
like we are such fans, I know, like we really
like I just think you're the best.

Speaker 4 (01:12:30):
You guys made me feel so special. You believed in
the art, You were the start of the getting the
queer community on or like no, no, I'm serious like
you Like I remember guys nominated.

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
From Buckingham Palace, love that palace, and I was.

Speaker 4 (01:12:49):
Like, I can't believe I'm nominated with like Mona, Like
that's so cool. I was like, this is crazy that
these were all like nominated. That's feels so big. And
because I've never been like recognized on a platform that
big yet, So that was so I don't know, I
just really appreciate it and that you got it, like
you were the first people in media to get it

(01:13:11):
because you articulated it for the right for the first time,
because you were like, it's campy, there's lore, and I
was like, finally someone understands that it's a joke. Finally
they understand that I'm everything I'm doing is like an
homage or reference to like the Queer Elders. Finally someone
understands that it's deeper than just what I'm doing on

(01:13:32):
stage or writing about. Like it felt so nice to
be understood. That is what was so awesome. I was like,
it's working, and there's they're the proofs.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
And you're so for real and that we just like
it's been truly surreal and a joy even for us
to watch everyone really embrace you. And I just hope
that even sometimes when it feels difficult, you know just
how helled.

Speaker 3 (01:13:58):
You are and how loved you are, and how.

Speaker 2 (01:14:00):
How special we think you are, and like you'll always
have a place right.

Speaker 3 (01:14:06):
There right here. Let's get the ears together.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
So we have every episode with a song bo right,
I mean, we could do one of our guests, but
also also st it oh.

Speaker 5 (01:14:25):
By a battle mans Oh bat mans I.

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
Knew you'd go on, I went up here everything Bye.
Last Culture. Racis is the production by Will Ferrell's Big
Money Players and Ihart Radio.

Speaker 2 (01:14:45):
Podcasts, created and hosted by Matt Rogers and Bowen Yek,
executive produced by Anna Hasnier and produced by Becka Ramos,
edited mixed by Doug Bami and Nikla Board and our
music is by Henry Komirski

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Bowen Yang

Matt Rogers

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