“For The Night” (w/ Charli XCX) - Matt’s Pick for Best of 2024!

A re-release of Matt's favorite episode of the year! 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, this is Matt and as you know, we
are going to be taking the next few weeks off
a little winter break for us, but we wanted to
use this time to not have the feed be totally empty,
So we are going to be doing some re releases
and the intent behind these is to share some episodes
that we just want to shine a light onto some

(00:20):
of the best of the year. So this week is
my choice, and the next week you're going to hear Bowens,
and then the week after that, our producers Ana Hasnie
and Becca Ramos have teamed up to choose their top
episode of the year. This was not a difficult decision
for me at all. I have chosen for the Night
with Charlie XCX and here's a little bit about why.

(00:41):
I mean, I think we can all agree that Bratt
was the cultural phenomenon of the year. It just had
so much crossover appeal in fashion and music and politics yish, but.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Looking back, we did not know that at the time.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
I remember we got Brat a little bit early and
I listened to it the morning of our episode, and
I was really struck by the honesty in Charlie's lyrics,
the progression in her music like I always am, but
there was something really different and special about Brat And
if you listen to the episode, a lot of the
conversations that we have about you know, the lyrical content

(01:19):
and the ideas that she's engaging in. This episode was
the first time where she talked about a lot of
that stuff. You even hear her say like in terms
of girls so confusing. We asked her who it's about,
and we have like a little bit of a fun
back and forth with her about it, and she's, you know,
she's weighing whether or not to even say who it's about.
And then weeks later, obviously, you know, the Lord remix

(01:41):
came out, and then you know, just snowballed into this
cultural phenomenon that I feel like this had to be
the episode that we re released, So I'm super excited
to share again with you for the night with Charlie XCX.
She also has a lot of interesting, fun things to
say about Salt Lakes these last season, so it's kind

(02:01):
of reaching back to our last episode with Angie two.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
But I just felt like this was the perfect episode
to share with all of you. And I love Charlie,
and you.

Speaker 1 (02:08):
Know, the Grammys are coming up, so I guess you
can consider this a four year consideration ad as well.
Y'all know how I feel about BRATT and how it
should be taking out of the year. That's just my opinion.
But yeah, so this is for the night with Charlie
XCX WAH. Happy holidays, Thank you all so much. We'll
see you in twenty twenty five. Next week is Bowen
Yang's pick, but here's Charlie for now.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Look mare, oh, I see you my own bowe And
look over there is that the culture? Yes, goodness, Woe
loves culture, ding dong los culture.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
He's just calling We're off to the races here today
we prep British culture, British culture.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
More to com.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
I will say I'm a little upset about how much
amon milk is in this.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
Okay. If the cameras are picking this up listeners at home,
we can't see this. This is Duncan Donuts level chicanery.
It's pure milk with a little bit of ice coffee.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
I was going to use the word chicanery two for
the record, And I just want to say I wouldn't
even want to walk down the street and people think
that I have to coffee like this, like this is
just more omond milk than anything. Can I get an
amen up and hear in the words of RuPaul, this
is just that. There's also like a weird pallid color
to it. It doesn't have what I would call a
healthy looking color. And you guys all feel me out there.

(03:23):
You want coffee, not milk.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Thank you, Becca. It looks like chocolate milk. I was
going to say, next quick rabbit random mud lest I checked.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
I wasn't eight years old in my basement where I
would drink chocolate milk on the regular.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
What's your merch story, Matt, just with like an artist
that you love. My merch story, I'm wearing merchant. We merchant,
but Bowen is in Charlie Merchant. By the way, it's
very cute merch, which I say is a commment to
you the wearer and you the seller. My merch story
is I'm also currently wearing merch for drive away dolls.
This is Focus Features.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Send us this merch and I said, that's cute and
I will wear it on the thing.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
I didn't know they were going to do this. They
send it to us, and.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
After seeing the movie Challengers, I thought three someome cultures
sort of in I do think of the threesome of
MMF of MMF threeesome, and so I'm just sort of
encouraging that. Yeah, here on the podcast, I hope you
received who knows what happens today during the episode. I
don't think it will be an MMF threesome, but we've
got MMF here. Now, would you say that, like if

(04:24):
between between let's say like MMF two dicks one bad,
let's just go in with that parameter.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, I might get so like Dick confused that I'm like, yeah,
of course there's a vagina in the nex.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Listen all I know, it's not shocked. You can't think
about it too hard. I think when it comes to threesomes,
you have to just take.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
It moment by moment.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yeah, I've had two in my life, Uh huh, and
getting out of my way was important.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
No, I've had three.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
So the first one I was very in my own
way the entire time, and I was like, I am
doing this with more than one person, and it's a
little bit of a break teaser. And then the second
you just let that go and you have a wonderful time.
You know what happened to me the first time what
I was facing forward, facing someone great true North, and
it was and then jump scare behind me, literally like oh,

(05:17):
like I want someone to stick it in.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
They didn't stick it in. They just kind of kind
of nestled behind me, and I was like, oh, I forgot.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
The crazy thing is when you're facing true North and
sort of giving that are one one, you're a giving partner,
and then all of a sudden you feel the third
kind of really come through the back and you're like,
I'm not in that zone right now.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
I need to know. So let's just all.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Communicate and take it moment by moment everyone, And that's
sort of our treative Challengers.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
If you want a little educational video. But again, you
never see any three Challengers. You don't see any penetration anyway.
What's penetrated me is the new album. It's a really
penetrative album.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Emotionally penetrative, obviously sonically and physically pet and the best
way in a way that I invite and I'm open
wide for angels.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
If you're listening, this might be offensive to the guests.
If you mourn XCX world the way that some of
us out here do. This album is gonna give you everything.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
You want and more. You're about to party. We're about
We're about to party, but.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
You're also about to feel.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
And this is what I love about our guest and
like it's just so sort of singular and iconic. Is
like what I love is like you know, like emotional
pop music, and you always get our guest perspective, her POV.
It's always interesting and specific no matter what it is.
I was telling Bowen, like when we were just at
Prada Mange where we have all of our good conversations.

(06:39):
I'm a huge fan of our guest ballads, ballad like
I'm a ballad girl, and like you give that And
I'm just so excited. The new album, Bratt is coming
out June seventh and seventh. She's doing the Brat Tour
and then she's going to the Sweat Tour with the
Choicevon and on.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
Yeah, so she's just doing Brat, Sweat, Brat. Why are
you laughing? It's just so funny that I'm just sired, silent.
I'm like, I'm.

Speaker 3 (07:06):
Two three tries. That was so fun linking to you
guys gabaway thing about what you gab and saying about
on your records.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
We're having fun too good. You are the most fun.
You do truly.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
Intrinsically understand how to make us have fun. So nice,
we're having fun on the way. You get a Big
Day Baked Day recording that we're gonna release it closer
to the album released. But you're going on seth with Troy. Yeah,
and then watch it happens life also with Toy with
a housewife. Do you know? No, I'm so sad about
that you're just on solo.

Speaker 3 (07:42):
No, it's another man, Okay.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
I couldn't tell you who it is.

Speaker 1 (07:48):
I love that we will find out later episode like,
oh that's true, and I'll be like, it's I love.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Vineyards, I love I don't know. I think his name
is Joe.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Joe, And honestly, he's gonna ask you to be.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
We're going to really burn it out. We were talking
here about last time you were you were on you
were not as versed in the Bravo verse, and now
you are all in one city exactly so, and you
asked us a really important question, which was you want
to ask us again? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (08:25):
My question for you both is are you pro Monica
or the anti Monica?

Speaker 2 (08:32):
I'm tie sorry, no, no, no, that's okay. We and
the way we answered was an we're Auntie Monica. We
we were don't make fun of our guests, No I say,
I say Auntie as well. We were so what my
answer was. In the beginning when it all went down,
we were very anti, were like get her off, like

(08:53):
like none of the women want to film with her,
like she is not allowed anywhere near them. And then
now that they announced that she is no longer there,
we're like, oh, it's going to miss something. The travesty.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
My thing is like I just want to watch a
show where everyone speaks to each other because it gets
boring when you.

Speaker 2 (09:10):
Have a cast that's like, I'm not talking to her.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
You don't see like once you branch out to other franchises,
it's like when a cast is like not operating as
a group. And they were also scorched earth with Monica
at the end, like unwilling to speak to her. Can
you give thoughts on Mary Cosby from your Charlie perspective?

Speaker 2 (09:29):
I mean, this woman is just She's on the album,
she's gonna be.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
On the follow remix record, is just she is. I mean,
I don't even know where you begin it's like I
love her and I hate her, sure.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
But do we love you love her her hair? No,
that's totally fair.

Speaker 3 (09:48):
My friend saw her at Sounds Hot Tower and apparently
she was really rude to her.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
She was like.

Speaker 3 (09:57):
My friend was like, oh, can I sit here at
the bar and she was like no. And then my
friend was like, do you have someone coming? And she
was like yeah, and then obviously no one came and
it was just for her bag.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
Oh my god.

Speaker 4 (10:10):
And at the same time, I'm like, that's married legend.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Yeah her do what? She inbread comment? Yeah, I was
gonna say, and then she called your friend in brad
or something.

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
But the inbred comment followed up with Heather asking her
did you really call me inbred?

Speaker 2 (10:24):
And she goes, I did did?

Speaker 3 (10:28):
Yeah, you damn bitch, I did I do?

Speaker 2 (10:31):
I do?

Speaker 1 (10:32):
And then when they like went through it at the
reunion to it was so bizarre because Heather was kind
of just like threw up her hands and was like, listen,
I respect that she said it.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
She speaks her truth. It's like, can you please Heather
do all that? They talked to her like she's five
years old. Either she's a mental patient, which she might
be and like she's afraid of her, they're afraid.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
I mean, she gets a lot of free passes, you know,
because well.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
That was funny when she was on Watch What Happens Live,
Like they asked her a question like why did you
come back?

Speaker 2 (11:04):
And she fully just goes.

Speaker 5 (11:05):
To help you guys out, I mean love, love, because
you want to know why there's like not a thirsty
bone in her body or like a bothered because you
can tell she doesn't.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Really get it right.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
So she's just like going to show up and say
whatever the fuck it is. The rumor is now that
she called Lisa Barlow's youngest son the word. That is
the rumor that's happening for next season. Thoughts on that, I.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
See, I see, I see it. I can imagine it happens.
You can imagine it happening.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
Yes, I imagine it happening. I'm fascinated by her wardrow.

Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yes, and the choices and the choices many colors, many
actually got dressed in the.

Speaker 2 (11:46):
Dark times in a run and then she just went
out with all of it.

Speaker 1 (11:50):
And isn't it funny that she's like the fashion She's
the fashion god.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
I mean, the thing is she's gonna come for us,
So are you ready? Like she's coming for us.

Speaker 2 (11:59):
I think she cares. I don't think she cares what
we think. Yeah, maybe maybe.

Speaker 1 (12:05):
Feud for you though, Mary m Cosby.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
That's why no one. It would be so good. It
would be so good. I'm pro Monica. That's great. I
just want to pivot back to that.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
I'm pro Monica, and you said to us, you know,
what she did wasn't really that bad, and we agree
that it would be like if Troy ran a patrol
account for like an anti Charlie Troy, like.

Speaker 2 (12:31):
Everyone leave after my set.

Speaker 3 (12:33):
But but was she Okay, here's the thing. I'm pretty
like Flag in the Sand, like, I'm pro Monica, but
I haven't actually done much research into reality vuntee, so
I'm basing that on nothing. But I've heard from friends
who I trust dearly that she wasn't really like talking

(12:56):
shit about the.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
Women, so she was it was really.

Speaker 3 (12:59):
More of a gent and obviously that was her narrative
on the show, which I was a little bit like,
a right, yeah, yeah, but you know, God love her.
But I was like, surely she's using that a little bit.
But my reliable friends say that that was the case
that she wasn't really talking about the women.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
I believe you're reliable friends.

Speaker 3 (13:17):
So then I'm just like, also, I'm like, guys, you're
on Housewife.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Yeah, I know what it was those back she ran
out of steam when it came to defending herself and
explaining it.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Like I felt like she sort.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Of like threw up the white flag as it were.
When it was go time. It was like, Okay, this
is the reunion, explain what it was and what exonerates
you about this, And it felt like she kind of
just took it because she got confused and started to
lean into the villain narrative, right, thinking that's what people
would want, when it was like, no, what you want

(13:53):
is to stay on the show, and they won't film.

Speaker 2 (13:55):
With you unless you can explain you get them on board.
And then I think she was like gearing up to
bring out that burn Book prop, like she was like,
probably rough and a half the burn Book didn't learn
that all went a bit a ride, isn't it. So yeah,
you got to You've got to mean girls track on
your album.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
I love this song thank You because it really is
for that girl, thank you for the days that are
trying to be that girl that day.

Speaker 3 (14:19):
Yeah, you know what's interesting about that song is I'm
going to tell off you have Mark.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Okay, excellent.

Speaker 3 (14:26):
So the thing is about the mean Girl's song on
the album is that it's kind of like.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
A fascination with women like that in the culture. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Oh you know what, I was actually totally in my
brain talking about a different song.

Speaker 4 (14:44):
No, I know, I remember talking about mean girls.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (14:47):
Sorry, No, that really is just about like being a bit.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
Love So sorry, I was thinking, sorry, I was thinking
about so confusing.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Questions about this and okay, you don't have wonder if
you answer. I think I think you've already and look,
we're not entitled to any information.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Okay, who's just about.

Speaker 3 (15:09):
No, I Miriam Cosby totally no, you know, I haven't.
This is early Yeah, like this is the first time
I've spoken about the songs. You guys are the first
people to ask me. So I haven't quite decided whether
I'm revealing.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
The problem when I wrote it, I was like, I'm revealing,
But now you know, now the time is here, I'm like,
I'm really I think I should reveal.

Speaker 2 (15:34):
I think not for your benefits, just in general, I
think that whatever we're going to I feel at some point, yeah,
in thirty years.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
My thing is people are going to guess Yeah I
already probably both have an accurate guess, and I'm not
going to ask you to say out loud because you'll
tell by my face.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah okay, yeah, but I like that person, right, yeah,
well you know you know what, yeah, like say it
with your eyes.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
I think it's yeah, okay, okay, now I think.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
So.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
The thing is, it's like, I think we live in
this like world of pop music right now, where like
women are like I support other women.

Speaker 4 (16:16):
I love women. I'm a feminist and that's great, like
love that, but artifice to it.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Absolutely absolutely, And I don't think that you become a
bad feminist if you maybe don't see eye to eye
with every single woman. That's just like not the nature
of human beings. You know, there is a competitiveness between us.
There is envy, there is camaraderie, there is you know,
all of these different like dynamics, and I mean I

(16:43):
feel that working in entertainment, there is this kind of
dance that we all do with.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Each other, whether you're in music.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Whether in your you're in your world like, no matter
how you identify, there is this dance that everybody's everybody's
watching each other.

Speaker 4 (17:03):
Everybody's like posing in the picture, like hey, this is he.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
You're some good friends.

Speaker 3 (17:09):
Yeah, but then you're also like I want what they have,
And then the next day you're like, they suck. I
killed it today. And this happened, but no one really
is like willing to discuss it. But we've we all
probably have our person, yeah, maybe a few different people,
and I'm sure we are that person for other people.
And I just find that there is this like strange,

(17:32):
like unspoken thing that often happens, particularly with women, because
there is such a narrative of pitting women against each
other within music. And sometimes that's not totally like fabricated.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
Do you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
Sometimes there is like what's the phrase smoke where the smoke?
Like I do feel like that sometimes does happen, And sometimes.

Speaker 4 (17:54):
It's like I don't know, everybody's just doing this little like.

Speaker 2 (17:57):
Square dance, totally like this idea like oh, women are
pitted against each other. That shouldn't make you feel any
worse or more complicated about the fact that like it happens.
It's not. Why is it this red line all of
a sudden you're not supposed to get into any other
conflict with any other It's.

Speaker 4 (18:13):
Like it's unrealistic. It's unrealistic, and.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
It's not saying fuck her, You're saying it's confusing. When
I feel like we got a lot of people saying
that we do great stuff together. It feels like the
vibe is good, and then I'm confused. It's like, am
I okay with who the audience might fill in this spot? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (18:31):
Well that's the other thing about it.

Speaker 3 (18:33):
It's like, for me, this is like my favorite part
of the high artness of music and the low artness
of like pop stop ye. Like I like the marriage
of the two, and I like that maybe people are
getting it wrong, but they're like having fun playing the game. Yeah,

(18:53):
because I think that that brings like kind of this
three dimensional world two songs, you.

Speaker 4 (19:00):
Know, outside of just like the song's really good.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
It's like it's nice to plant like theories and ideas
and let people like live their kind of Paris Lindsay
fantasy with it. It's fun, but I also think it
does this thing of like with the whole record, I'm
kind of like doing that in ways, it's like holding
a mirror to this kind of culture that we're in

(19:24):
right now where everybody is really I feel like everybody
is like their moral compass has to be so in
check all the time, but it's like sometimes it's just
like fun of it's not and everybody the listeners, like
your moral compass isn't always like bang on.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Like everybody's a little fucked.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Everybody's like like shady. Everybody has like thoughts of all
these different things, like everyone's kind of a bitch sometimes
and that's okay, Like it doesn't make you a bad person,
it makes you af flawed human beings.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
To put that into work too, because like I mean,
I can't stand the morality thing as it applies.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Like, but when did pop stars and let's just include
in lump in like actors and shit, like when did
they become like moral parragons because like, actually it's from
my mom, Like in the seventies there would be signs
up that said no actors. It's like we were like
like we like they were like the rowdy, fucking like
chaotic people and that's what everyone understood them to be.
It's like these are not good people. Keep them out,

(20:26):
you know what I mean, and like maybe that's okay. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
I wondered, like, it's interesting this celebrity culture, especially over
the past like ten maybe fifteen years, has really like
changed a lot in the I think niceness became a commodity,
Whereas before niceness wasn't cool, right, you know, it wasn't
like cool to be nice. No, yeah, and then like

(20:50):
suddenly it really was. It was like, oh, well, if
you're not nice, like you're dead, you know. But it
actually just used to be like really cool to be
like County. And I feel like we're slowly edging back there,
but I still think we're in all nice era. I
still feel like we're in our lights and everybody has
to be so nice all the time, and that's like
cool if you're like really actually just like chill and nice.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Yeah, sometimes I'm like, I see you see through it,
and we'll do. I think everything is too sensitive now
to actually who you are.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
Like the media, it's like if people are.

Speaker 1 (21:23):
Watching, they're watching so closely so that you can't really
get away with like putting on a persona anymore. That's
like really different from who you are because we see
so much of it and we're inundated in the discourse
and et cetera, that like we're ahead of the game
that you're.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
Playing right, and you play it like really well, yeah,
some people do really good team to cover shit up.
But I feel like, and I mean this on such
a complimentary level. You, I feel like you've stuck to
your countiness the whole the whole way through.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
Yeah, well, I appreciate that. It's funny. It's like I
think I.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
Can be bitchy. I don't know that I'm a bit right.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
That is a big distinction, you know, like I'm never
going to be horrible to someone for the sake of it,
because it's actually I personally find it a lot harder
to be like deliberately like emotionally or mean or whatever,
you know what I mean. Like, And don't get me wrong,
I'm sure I have my bad days. Like I'm not
saying I'm a saint.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
But I'll also just like tell it how it is.

Speaker 3 (22:25):
And I think that gets misconstrued as being mean, but
it's actually just I'm just being real because I don't
think that it's that interesting to have this sort of
like facade of.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
Like yourself and.

Speaker 4 (22:48):
You're all gonna die and I'm just like just.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Like have fun. I mean, I think this album is
kind of like on this frontline where a lot of
a lot of artists are doing this now where it
is like transparency, I'm bringing the fourth wall, Like you're
singing about a G and Sophie and like like for
the first time probably right and a little way and like, yeah,
you're being very real about ships, like you're singing. I
don't want to spoil the rest of the album, but
like you were singing about things that like are very surprising,

(23:15):
and I'm like, oh, I didn't think she would be
she would have a song about like I think is
that I think about it all the time? Yeah fourteen
is that? Yeah? Yes?

Speaker 6 (23:24):
Yeah, I just remember because what track fut.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
Analogy It goes into the last track and I love
the two together because it's such a psych out Like
it's like you're talking about like really weighing things in
your in the way where you are in life, Like
now is the time when I should maybe really think
about a family, if that's what I want, Like, is
it okay with you that I think about this? Like, yeah,
this occupies a lot of Space and then the next

(23:50):
song is keys.

Speaker 7 (23:51):
Yeah, and I was like, and I was like, is
this her answering it or is this her having fun yeah?

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Or is it both? Like it's it's not.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
The answer because I definitely I don't think I have
an answer.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Yeah, if you have baby, we do cocaine is what
you're saying.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
Totally all brand deal's gone.

Speaker 2 (24:11):
That's school.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
But no, I don't have an answer.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
But I think it's an interesting question to muse over
because I mean, do you guys have many friends who
have kids?

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Female friends are really starting I mean like even in
the past six to eight months, like four or five
of my friends I've had their.

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, Like one of my friends had her third Wow. Yeah,
oh wow? Is this your friend group?

Speaker 4 (24:35):
I don't have loads of friends who have kids.

Speaker 3 (24:37):
Yeah, But I had kind of one, like major friend
in my life who's a songwriter who had a baby.
She was kind of the inspiration for this song because
I went to her house to visit her in Stockholm
with her partner. They've been together for years, but they
never really were like we're having kids. It just kind
of happened, you know, And then it was so crazy

(25:00):
going over to their apartment writing songs with them. She's
wearing the same clothes she always wore, the apartments the same,
they're exactly the same, we're writing songs, but it's just
like everything is different because she has the key to
this door that like, I'm not even in the same
room as yet, do you know.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
What I like?

Speaker 1 (25:19):
It's almost like they now know something you don't know.
And it's that wanting that like is driving the question
in you exactly really interesting.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
Exactly and it's like you don't not to say that
you can't you know, get the same sort of level
of person. I'm not saying that, but I just I think,
particularly like with her, for me, I was just like, wow,
like we used to be so similar, and now your worldview,
even though you're saying all the same things and you're

(25:46):
the same person, you're also just like completely different because
you have this new perspective that I can't even really
begin to understand.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, you know, and it's just strange. But does it
not give you some comfort that like she she's wearing
the same clothes, nothing about her.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
Absolutely no, It's totally comforting. But then it's at the
same time, it's just like, I mean, missing out like,
and I think for me, it drives me to this
place of like, do I want kids? Will I feel
this new lease of life and this whole new world

(26:23):
open up?

Speaker 2 (26:23):
If I have kids? Will I feel resentment towards the kid?

Speaker 3 (26:26):
Will I seamlessly be able to do both things and
exactly the way that I want?

Speaker 1 (26:32):
No?

Speaker 3 (26:32):
Probably not unless I like kind of disregard the kid.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Like you want to do an amazing job at both,
And so I would also if I were in that position.
I don't I'll ever have children, But if I were, really,
if it was something that was on my mind, I
would worry that it would like harm my passion and
like what I know I'm supposed to do you know
what I mean? Like, is it going to change the
way that I relate to myself as like this person

(27:01):
who like in your cases out there creating and like
being this like pop idol? And then I don't know,
like it would it would change a lot, Like you
don't know that you're gonna be exactly like your friend
wearing the same ship talking about the same ship. For
some people it really changes hard.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
But I feel like you have already been through a
situation where everything was taken from you in some sense
with lockdown. Like your response to that was like how
I'm feeling now? So I feel like if like in
a big life change situation like that, you already kind
of I'm not saying what happened exactly that way, but
you already know that. Like your response would be to

(27:38):
like keep making true. Yeah, that's pretty interesting. I never
thought of it like that, Noah, connecting dots. Last time
I saw you was at SNL and at the Good
Nights you were like, what's going on after? And I

(27:58):
was like, there's a horse meat disco? And then I
almost did you know? I went after you didn't miss much?
That was that we love horse.

Speaker 1 (28:05):
Meat, you know.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
I mean you know this because you do it. But
it's it's a lot of it's a lot of energy.

Speaker 3 (28:11):
It's late, it's late, but.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Like the boiler room set looks fucking late. But I
mean this is like, because when do you end one
one and then then you go to the funny Mexican restaurant?
Where was it Ro Mexico? What is okay? We rotate,
we rotate restaurants.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Why isn't it okay the same place? Why isn't it
just a better place.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
You know what, do you really roll the dice and can't.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
But like sometimes I'm like where we're going and it's
either a fuck yes or a calm on?

Speaker 2 (28:46):
But has it? It has been a.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
Yeah, and they would I went ROAs Mexico.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Mexicano was oscar Isaac. I mean I had fun, but
I had fun. You had a margarita. It was funny
and you described it as a funny restaurant, and it
is a very funny restaurant.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
It's hilarious. And we love Rose Mexicanos so much. We
love them, we love them, but we want a table.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
To know it was gone. My brand Mexicano gone. But
I like Charlie Famously, it's not a budget thing. It
kind of is like it's getting a slash. I know,
budget you need to come back when the party is
at Love and you at Sacks. It's chic. There's there's
room to walk around. But Charlie famously was the musical

(29:30):
guest during the Omicron episode where it everyone was gone, right, well,
can I say can I reveal? Like on the monitors
on Thursday, like all the writers were fucking screaming because
it was like, oh my god, it's.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
Like Caroline polojecks here, Christine's here, They're doing new shapes.

Speaker 2 (29:45):
And then like the world missed out on like the
three of you being on the same stage on TV
doing it was that was crazy.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
Gra that was crazy also because yeah, I guess we
never did that performance that was we had.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
We were on a did you see a sound check?

Speaker 3 (30:00):
We're on a spinning platform, so cool, and like I
love Caroline and Christine, but my god, that it was crazy,
like because.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Guys go crazy on it. It was like.

Speaker 3 (30:10):
Caroline wanted the platform to spin one way, one speed,
Christine wanted to spin.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
The other way.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
I was like, I don't care what platform.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
COVID. It was just like so stressful. It was just
like a lot, and then we finally figured out. We
were so feeling so good about it, but like dancing
on the platform.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
We're not falling over. We like we fucking killed it.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
And then we're literally we were in like we were
getting ready like.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
And then on Saturday.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was in gum and then
Caroline was like it's not happening.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
I was like, what do you mean You're not coming
and she was like no, It's like it's they pulled
the plug on it.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Yeah, entirely, well not my meatball sketch.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
Thank god? Played meat show?

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Was it?

Speaker 2 (30:55):
That was? That was the second show. That was the
time you came back.

Speaker 4 (30:57):
Oh, I got a chicken Chicken, I was, I did
some sketch.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
You were you were you were tricking or repair it.
You were a parrot. You were a parrot.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
Yeah, and I was.

Speaker 2 (31:07):
Kind of like, oh.

Speaker 4 (31:09):
Well at least I kept that.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
And it was yeah, yeah, wow, a good one though,
to play chicken with Paul. That's so snl coded.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Sketch comedy. Yeah, I was, I was a chicken in
me ball.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
But then you were. But then the second show you
did baby and then what what did you do for you?

Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Oh my god. Rena wasn't there for Rena was not then.
But speaking of sons of Towers, Towers holds a very
special place in my heart because that was where I
was when Crash came out, the whole album, and I like,
it was just me in a room listening to that
whole album. Went to the tour. You were fantastic, And
I still say that that is the most well behaved
audience because it's these lovely boys and girls just jump

(31:54):
up and down the article. No one's like throwing elbows
in the pit, you know what I mean. Everyone watches
and they're polite. Angels are polite, But with this, do
you want them to get a little a little bit more.

Speaker 3 (32:09):
I always want them to get chaotic, like whenever they
You know, I'm lucky because whenever I bump into like
a mass group of angels, they're very like.

Speaker 2 (32:20):
Sweet, you know, they like wait in line, they.

Speaker 3 (32:23):
Like have the lids off their sharpie like organized.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
Yeah, It's never like like a ship show like I
saw this TikTok of Paris. Hilton had done like a
signing and it had got a little hectic and someone
had like drawn on her like chanel bag, and I
was just like that. I mean, I'm sure there's like
there's lots more where it came from, but that is

(32:49):
really like that's such a bummer.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
That would never happen with the.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Angel Always, I always travel on a hair left it
on the plane.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
You did you have my favorite? What's my bad? Because
you have the banana, you have the line, yes, and
you have the barreto. Is it the true emotion?

Speaker 1 (33:09):
No?

Speaker 2 (33:09):
No, no, No, that's that's no. What is it? It's
that I just mixed emotions. You and I have the
same fragrance.

Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah, I'm wearing a lots too late today. It's a
new I haven't done it before.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
It's at a new thing. Yeah, I've switched and it's
just like, what are you? I am on Delo Santos
from Okay, I have that.

Speaker 2 (33:31):
I will say. Bow and Yang really tried to get
me into Sunday cologne and that was not for me.
Sunday it's called no, No, it's as well. It's called Sunday.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yes, Sunday something rainy Sunday. No, that's much I think
about Sunday. It's just called Sunday. Sunday Colon Sunday.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
I found and I actually was wearing. It had its
debut at Coachella on me, and I felt very good
by the way. You didn't You didn't say me, but
I saw you. Last year went off, people were getting
people were getting fun, rowdy fun.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
How was Coachella this year? I tell she was fucking great.
But makes an appearance in the Mean Girls song.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yes she does, because because hot girls listen.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
To Landa and me girls listen to It's true. It's true.

Speaker 4 (34:16):
I feel like any cool, like genuinely cool.

Speaker 3 (34:20):
Girl not only like likes Landad, but like understands like
the law, like Lana in.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
A really deep way. She's total real.

Speaker 4 (34:35):
She's an art figure.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
She really is something symbolic, something right. Yes, when I
was hearing that song, I was like, I see this girl. Yeah, yeah,
you see her.

Speaker 4 (34:45):
Yeah, she like smokes skinny cigarette and being.

Speaker 3 (34:48):
Being she's a little le Yes, she's a little bit
like she's got a vocal, fry vocal.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
But it doesn't feel dated. It feels very good on her. Absolutely,
And I will say being at.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Coachella around seventy five thousand of those girls, yeah, was
a good vibe cool. And I wasn't sure about her
doing the Friday night because I felt like that should
be a party. Like in my head, I was like
switch Dojah and Lana. Put Lana on Sunday night, Dojah
will get everything started. And then now having seen it,
I'm like everything was exactly it was, Yes.

Speaker 2 (35:18):
Yeah, did you go? I didn't gone. I've never been
never been what people do with your music, though, I
think like, if we're gonna compare Lana heads to like Angels,
and people like really like love you. I feel like
you get people to like do the digging of like
oh my god, like it's this there's this whole album
that you know, like they they really start to like
dig through the crate. And I think people love to

(35:40):
like take your stuff, all the stamms whatever, and then
just like rearrange it and like they they have fun
with the building blocks that you're giving. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:48):
I think my music is like intrinsically like for the night. Yes,
you know, you can't listen to it in the day.
You can in the car like whatever, but generally it's
like the best time.

Speaker 1 (36:01):
I remember, like I saw you at the will Turn
a few years ago and just like what was happening
on stage was so great and one of my favorite
songs of yours is I Don't Want to Know, and
like I just like you had this like really cool
purple light just like I don't know, just like you're
not like synesthetic, are you?

Speaker 2 (36:17):
I I could tell yeah, someone like got into your
face was like you're not actually.

Speaker 3 (36:23):
No, no, no, I just it's like one of those
things where you know, like when you do your first
interviews and it's like one of the first things you've
ever said.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
And then like it follows it's people are like she's synesthetic,
test her, but you actually experience that.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, And for me it's like really helpful with writing.

Speaker 3 (36:39):
Yeah, when I'm writing, I'm like, this song is purple
like and then I'll be like, hey, gee, you make
the purple.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
I wanted to ask you this question about like, when
you sit down to write a song, is it like
because it feels like equal parts important and obviously it is,
but I guess my question is is it the sounds
and like where you're going sonically that dictates what something
is going to be about, or do you come in
with an emotion that you need to get up?

Speaker 3 (37:02):
With this record, it's been very much that I came
in with what I wanted to say, whereas on previous
records it's not actually really been like this.

Speaker 2 (37:11):
With this record, it's been so lyrically led.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
Like I've been like I want to write a song
about my kind of sticky relationship with my mom and dad,
which was apple, or like I want to write the
song about not being sure ever I want to have kids,
or you know, like it's been very like it's there,
it's in my head, like mean girls kind of like

(37:35):
piecing that around like a few different girls I know,
and thinking about like qualities that they have and putting
that in a song three sixty.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
Luck and your bookends are there, it's thanks, yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
And with that it was very like, Okay, I want
to talk about me like being the like a sonic
reference for people, but through the like lens of Julia
kind of being the like New York like it girl,
street fashion girl that everybody's referencing, you know.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
Julia Fox meaning yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
So it was like very specific and then kind of
fun to build out these like pop songs that hopefully
like a lot of people can relate to, but they're
coming from like quite a specific idea.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Right in place. And why do you think it didn't
happen with the other albums. It just like wasn't the
way it was.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
I think I was writing very much like the way
I would write on previous records.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
We would build a track.

Speaker 3 (38:30):
And then I would get on the microphone and literally
be like and then I would figure out the lyrics
that fit the vowel sounds I was kind of making.
So there was already this sort of like map of
sound that you know, I was trying.

Speaker 2 (38:43):
To fit words to you're saying, this is lyrically.

Speaker 3 (38:46):
Where lyrically love and not really focusing too much on
rhyme or worrying about like what fits within a stanza
or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
You know.

Speaker 3 (38:54):
So actually, just I was really able to kind of
just write lyrics I would actually say in a conversation
rather than crafting them into this sort of like song
version of what I would.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Say, and even like melodically in the way that like
the song forms around is like even with girls so confusing,
it's girl, you know what I mean, Like there's something
there that's the melody, like the way you.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Really say it, like I want to do this, you
know what I mean, Like you know, it's just like
it's like it feels.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
Like it's born out of something you want to say
yes this time, and to hear that you say that
is yeah, it works.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
But back on this thing of like I think this
is like extremely transparent in the way and it is
like holding up this mirror because like the worshack test
of this album is the cover and everyone having all
these opinions about like the care right and it's in
your and I think you kind of threw it back
of people in a nice way where you're like, no,
this is actually like this completely reveals what you think
like pop really should appear and how they should put

(39:52):
out their work and stuff like that, which I think
is great. But I think with the content of the album,
it's more about like guys, like I think about like
easy dark shit about my career. I'm not putting words
in your mouth, but it's like, I think it is
your most vulnerable album because you are being very honest
about like how you regard yourself in a way that
would have never occurred to me. You know, like there

(40:13):
are allusions to like your career being in this in
between and I'm like, oh, like six albums in like
you feel that way, yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
Well, I just it's I think there aren't many people
who have a path that I have that there are,
Robin being one, and I think that's why there's a
lot of like synergy between the two of us. But
you know, somebody who had speaking about Robin now huge

(40:42):
commercial success, yes, right at the beginning of her career, yes,
and then kind of had to like rebrand and then
became this kind of gay icon, kind of.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Like Girl of the Night. No, that sounds wrong, but you.

Speaker 3 (41:00):
Know, like nighttime music like club like always no matter
what she does, is always going to be kind of
like looked upon as like a really important artist who's
kind of like treading new ground and.

Speaker 2 (41:13):
You know, kind of like timeless.

Speaker 3 (41:16):
And I think, you know, we share similarities in that,
you know, not my first music, but music for my
second record was globally like commercially successful. But at that
point of time, for me, I didn't really have my
artistry kind of totally figured out in the way that
I feel that I do have now. I mean, there

(41:36):
were definitely like good through threads, but when I look
at for example, like Sour Olivia Rodriguez, I'm like, oh,
I wish i'd done Sucker kind of like that, like
because I think there are parallels within those universes. But
I think she just did it better because I think

(41:58):
she I don't know, I don't think I knew myself
that well at that point in time when I was
doing that record, and I look at some of the
decisions she made and I'm like, oh wow, it's like
still really like pop and kind of like touching on
this like live like punkish stuff, but it's done in
a way that to me is still very cool. Whereas

(42:19):
I feel like when I look back on Soccer, there
at elements of it that I'm like, oh, that was
just a bit annoying.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Shing, you know what I mean. I've told you though,
that like True Romance is still the perfect I don't
know how you feel about that album, but it's like
I feel like that is still for Charlie. That is
still like that's the through throughout, that's the thing, And
like I still listen to So Far Away and I'm like,
this is fundamentally the same stuff she's putting it, she's
put out through her whole career, and like that is

(42:45):
like music of the Night where it's like it's like
the beginnings of like bedroom pop, this whole thing now
that has this whole you know, life and culture around it.
Like I think you really broke ground in that way
with it, Like yeah, Sucker is its own thing and
that must been so strange and so complicated, but it's
still a great record, The True Romance. I think it's
still like you you can always always fall back on

(43:07):
that first record is like yeah, I love that record.
I love that record. But yeah, anyways, I think it's
like it's just interesting. My career hasn't been like a
to be It's been like kind of it's like a
weird JPQ.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
To and it's like straddling this like commercial thing also
being a songwriter, also being linked to the underground, disregarding
that and coming back and you know, it's a mess.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
It's not a mess. It's that I think. I'm sure
you nice way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People don't have that
trajectory anymore because we're so afree to take the risk,
whether from the label or from the artists themselves. Like
I think you have been so good about using whatever
the apparatus is, whatever you have within you just like
make it. Like that's like that's how I'm feeling now.

(44:03):
Is to me, it's like, yeah, you just fucking made it,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (44:16):
You have had these like when you describe it as
a mass, it is interesting because it's like there's these
spikes of like these mainstream moments, like going back to
like boom Clap like that, being in like love Simon.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
Like that was.

Speaker 7 (44:33):
But I guess that's what it's like that kind of
was our fault. They they're still gay though, but like that, And.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
Then I remember it was a few years ago now,
but we were in the Fire Island movie, and when
we found out that the Boys remix was going to
be in our trailer, I was like, thank God, because
this is going to get across like the fun of this.
It's going to make it seem even more fun than
it is like and also just like there was something

(45:04):
about doesn't that song also start promising young women?

Speaker 2 (45:07):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Like so it's just like there are these like moments
in like big mainstream that like you're right there, and
so I wonder how do you feel when something is
perceived on that level?

Speaker 2 (45:18):
Is that like an exciting thing or is it a
little bit like.

Speaker 3 (45:20):
H no, no, I feel good about it. It's like, okay,
I think because there are some things you mentioned that
so like Fire Island promising young woman, those things feel
really exciting to me and inspiring and happy to be
involved in them. But I think it's like what I've learned,
like going back and forth between this kind of like

(45:41):
more commercial version of myself to this kind of more
I'm really just leading with like what's in my brain
and my you know, instinct.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
I've just learned now from doing it, So.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
I can't like fake. I just can't like fake pushing
the commercial button.

Speaker 2 (45:58):
Likely. I can't. I can't do it. I can't like
and that's no disrespect to the people who do.

Speaker 3 (46:07):
Some people are just like made to like live in
that world and like they want to make the music
that it's going to like really succeed in that world.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
And it's really hard to succeed in that world.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Like I'm not taking that away from anyone, but like,
I just can't do it because when I've written those
songs and I put them out, it's like they only
go so far because I think there's a block that
the fans see as well.

Speaker 4 (46:34):
They're just like, she's not that girl. Like that's not
who she really is.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
She's not that girl.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Like some of them can, like maybe a less hardcore
fan can get down with it, but it's like, you know,
it's just like when you smell a rat or whatever.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
It's like, I have to just be yourself. Myself in
the milk ain't clean. Yes, when you're not being yourself.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
And I can't fucking nor should you have to. I
can't do because it makes me miserable.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
You have to sing that music every night.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
I think it was Dua who said we were just
talking to her about her album and she we were
talking about this like theme that she has of like positivity,
and the messages that she has are usually like up
and she's like, well, I have to sing it every
fucking night. So if it's gonna be something that's in
my mouth every single night, it better tastes good, like
you know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
Like it's so funny because I'm the opposite of Yeah,
really like if I had to sing really overly positives
like boom clap is a good example.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Obviously, it's so different from like.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
Radical optimism, like completely different sounding records, et cetera. But
like that's funny that she says that, and that makes
sense for her because she is I think she is
always really kind of like seizing like the positivity in life.

Speaker 4 (47:48):
I kind of like to dwell in the Yeah, to
kind of like sit in the ship.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
And externalize that because that is also a valid emotion
that people out there are.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
I have to do it, I could. Yeah, that's so
that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah, But like I feel that
this is like just like like the pendulum, like.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
A vision of like me performing Radical Optimism and doing
Brat Brat being like three six five putty girl, and
then me doing Yeah and like both of us like
being on our like the versions of what those tours are.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
And I want to see that how is that? How's
how's it going down? This is? But this is how
you know that? Like you're doing the right thing?

Speaker 1 (48:31):
Is that?

Speaker 2 (48:31):
Like you Yeah, Like we love Doua.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
It would be crazy if she did three sixty, and
it would be kind of crazy if you did Radical Optimists.
It's like you are doing the thing you were meant
to do. It is purely externalized from whatever your inner
life is.

Speaker 2 (48:44):
And I feel like you're what you're saying is maybe
the pendulums stops swinging, like you've landed in this nice
space of like I'm in between or I'm more of
this one thing than I am this thing, And like
I feel like reflective surfaces are a big part of
this album. That you look at the mirror, you see
me like and you're holding up a mirror to society,

(49:06):
the reflective but like it.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Use it like a mirror, like a mirror. We had
asked Charlie the question, yes we do. So this is
the central question of last culture. It's what was the
culture that made you say culture is for you? You
can look back and be like, I am largely me
because of this thing I experienced.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
I think it was and maybe this is not its
very surprising, but I think it was like the London
rave scene and that like culture of like London warehouse
policies that I kind of came up through because that
sort of in turn put me very onto kind of

(49:51):
like club kids stuff.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
When I was younger and when I was in art school,
I was always kind of like in this sort of
like Lee Bowery like buyer, like Michael Alec kind of yeah,
but still there was a cool scene.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
Yeah, like those parties, like that level of yes, totally
and that level of kind of like diy esthetic with
clothes and music.

Speaker 4 (50:15):
And yeah, I think that really formed who I am.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
How did you find it?

Speaker 3 (50:21):
I think it was from starting going to these parties
because when that.

Speaker 4 (50:27):
Must have been like two thousand and seven and eight.

Speaker 2 (50:31):
When I was going in London I was young. I
would go with my parents, Oh wow, which was not cool.
But were you guys like in Essex going to Yeah, yeah,
they would drive me.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
I would get asked ahead of my space, and I
knew this like promoter who was like come and play
and we would like drive into London and I would
play at like three am.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Being booked for these yeah, it was being booked.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
Yeah, And that was kind of my first like look
into kind of night life and like party culture at
that point in time.

Speaker 4 (51:01):
I guess it was like our version of Indie Sleeves.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
It was New Rave, which was like you know for sure, Yeah,
And so that was sort of like a kind of
regurgitation of you know, all the prior like first second
wave of club kids that were coming before. So I
kind of just got sort of like sucked in through
that way.

Speaker 2 (51:23):
But like and then you learned about the prior wave,
it felt like education. There was some like rooting for this.
It wasn't like it just kind of came about of nowhere,
like you had a history to like, yeah, I had.

Speaker 4 (51:33):
I had to soak in the history because I wanted
to understand.

Speaker 3 (51:36):
Like what Michael Atlck was doing and what like that
original like club scene and like those club kids were
doing back here in New York and those levels of
like crazy parties they would throw like they threw one
on a bridge where all they like shut both ends
of the bridge and like you know, just this like
lore of like partying and how that kind of like

(52:01):
spawned into music and then began to kind of create
like new sounds of music.

Speaker 2 (52:06):
I think that it's like such a rich thing thing
for me. Yeah yeah, yeah, like like you like at
the Limelight would have been so fucking imagine. Yeah, wild.
But that's where do you live now? Do you do
you still like I'm half in La and half in London. Yeah,
back and forth La out of necessity or.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
Do you like it?

Speaker 2 (52:27):
I am beginning to maybe be over it. I've been
there for ten years. That feels like that feels like
double yeah, the amount of time it would take over it. Yeah,
I'm thinking about New York. Actually, I think New York.
I lived here. I think New York is New York
and London.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
Like I guess, like if you were someone who wanted
two different experiences in the two places you live, Like
I'm here because I want to rest, meaning LA, and
I'm here because I want to be included in what's
going on and like the culture that's London, but like
New York is New York.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
Yeah, I do. If we can rest in New York.
I love London too. Did you love performing at Coachella?
I was, honestly so scarce.

Speaker 3 (53:07):
Was it scary yeah, because you know with stage Yeah,
and everyone was like, it's all about the live stream.

Speaker 4 (53:14):
Everyone's like about the live stange. That made me kind
of treat them.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
On like TV. Oh was that helpful?

Speaker 6 (53:21):
Now?

Speaker 2 (53:22):
Well, I was happy with.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
How it looked and how I sounded because I was
thinking so much about the broadcast.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
But it definitely like was just stressful. That wasn't a
major you know, it was a major change.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
I remember we saw Chapel in the Golbie tent and
then right after that we walked over to Sabrina Carpenter
on the Coachella stage, and I remember.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
It felt like the energy was lower.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
But then I was like, oh, but on this stage
they're thinking about the live stream, whereas in like the
Golby and Sahar tents, they're just giving.

Speaker 2 (53:54):
A live show and it feels like that.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Like, so the live experience does feel I would imagine,
and like more alive there, and maybe as the performer
it feels more connected, whereas like on the Coachella stage
where you were, it is a lot about like they're
watching it at home.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah it was scary. Yeah that's okay. I mean what
would I was having the best? Lee? You used to
do these like videos, these little short films of him
like teaching you how to like have tea. Like he
was just so adorable people don't talk about with Lee

(54:31):
Bowry is like, yeah, it's like the looks and all
these things, but it's like at his heart he was
just like sensitive Australian Australian may I got confused to
as a bread But you know, maybe maybe you're right,
Maybe you're right. No, we can't look it up. I hope,
I hope you're both wrong. But like, did it take you? Like,
was there a developmental thing for you to like grow

(54:52):
up in that and then be like I'm gonna like
do you like I'm gonna make this like part of me.

Speaker 3 (54:57):
I don't think it was a choice. I think it's
like it just I gravitated so hard towards it. I
think it was like I saw elements of myself in
what was being created in the world that I was
looking into. There was there was like a punkness and

(55:20):
like a kind of freeness, and it felt that there
was like a possibility to be a little messy and
not perfect and not look a certain type of a
way to still be able to express yourself and feel
really like validated or something.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
And I think I was searching for.

Speaker 6 (55:39):
That a lot when I was growing up, and that
that could be a version of success is just going
there and participating and being in the culture and being
around people that make you feel good and not this
like more calculated metric of like, well did this happen?

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Did you look like this right?

Speaker 4 (55:53):
And be rewarded for being a freak?

Speaker 3 (55:55):
I think that was I think that was something that
really like made me like gravitate towards that world, because
that was what was like celebrated if you would like
really like wearing something like weird or like you know
what I mean, or like you got attention, you got
like something, yeah, right, I was like, Oh, that's cool,
Like you don't have to be this kind of traditional

(56:17):
version of beauty or talent or like whatever it is.
It's that you can kind of make a fantasy and
it be valid even if it's like a little fucked.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
And ugly, you know, or whatever that's your rout though,
Like that's why it's like you don't have to worry
about being like the moral model for anything. It's like
just like let that shit go because you started out
in this like environment where like it didn't really matter.
Like nightlife culture is about like unrepressed everything. It's just

(56:48):
like humanity revealing itself and being so like, no, I
love it, you know what I mean? And I love it.
It's so interesting. Have you done Mighty Hoopolo? I have
been to Mighty Hooplo. I don't don't want that. Things
like big queer, Like it's like a weird.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
When is that?

Speaker 2 (57:05):
Four times? What's that? What's that? There's a park that's Victoria.
I haven't done it.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
You haven't done it, no problem, but it's like it's
like a teeny tiny coach but in London with all
queer Jason.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
That's so yeah, it's fed. It's fucked in a crazy way.
Excited for tour, I am. Have you guys been wanting
to tour together? It feels like such a natural. Yeah,
you know, we have the same manager.

Speaker 3 (57:35):
Our manager has been trying to get us to talk
together for years and every time we're like, yeah, like
obviously we love each other. But I think the music
has never quite lined up, and now it's like so
lining up.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
You know.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
So this time when our manager like for like literally
the fifth time, was like, you guys want to together,
we were like, yeah, we do because it really made sense.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Could see how it would really like flow and work together. Yeah,
sung together, I think so.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Were to be honest, we're still putting it together. But
I think that yes, it's what people. Yeah, I mean,
I don't think it's going to be like a full
Medley situation, but there's definitely going to be a few moments.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
You guess. I did see you guys. I think it
was also at the will Turn like it was just
you guys were on the same show. Yeah, it was
a festival that I think we both did together. Yeah,
because I remember just thinking that I forget festival.

Speaker 4 (58:41):
That maybe was Troy's invention, but maybe it was also
my mind.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
But I don't remember. He totally did every year he did. Yeah, yeah,
well it's going to be it's gonna be.

Speaker 1 (58:54):
Wait, people were freaking out, yes situation, which is always
a good feeling when it's like.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Tickets, I know. So yeah, we're so happy. We're really happy.
It's gonna be fun. It's like pretty quick. Huh, I don't.
It's like a couple of months, right, It's like not
even is it like five weeks? Okay? Where is it
in New York? Is it m S G y? Obviously

(59:21):
it's gonna be really fun. And you know I've paid
top dollar for you, like I don't anymore. Yeah, I'll
take it. I'll take it.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
I did hear a story one time of I won't
say any details until after, but there was an artist
who was in a big feud with this other famous
person and the famous person reached out like years after
to like get tickets to a show, and the person
just sent back a ticket link and said buy one.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
I love.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
All right, So it's time for I don't think so many, okay,
and I just know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
You're gonna pop the fuck off. So this is this
is our sixty second segment where we drag name cultural item.

Speaker 5 (01:00:12):
Here.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
I walked into this myself today. Uh it's my own fault,
but I am gonna okay, here we are there's some
self accountability. Yes, is Matt Rodgers. I don't think some
of these time starts. I don't think so, honey. Wearing
a graphic tea on the subway in New York. Because
here's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
People are gonna read it, and then they were gonna
engage with it, and then you're trapped with them for
what could be as much as a half hour. So
today I have a shirt on that says, is it
gonna be a threesome? I'm challengers coded my whole life
right now. This is merch from Focused Features. Thank you again,
Driveway Dolls and for Driveaway Dolls. Haven't seen it yet,
but Wade's sister. I just know that I was on

(01:00:45):
the subway today with a gentleman who could read the
shirt and did out loud, and so then he was
engaging with it. He caused everyone to turn and I said,
you know what, maybe if I hadn't worn a shirt
with words on it that could be read, I wouldn't
be having a conversation at all, least of all about threesomes.
And this person was not necessarily someone I wanted to
engage with about threesomes.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
If you know, if you see me wearing this and
you think we would vibe, I don't know. Maybe I
will be wearing it the whole rest of today. This
episode comes out in like three weeks, but I'll wear
it again.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Actually, yes, today this episode is released, I'm gonna be
walking the streets and you're wearing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
It, say hi, but not if you're like a crazy
person on the STU. And that's one minute. So that's
my I don't think on today. Very so good, Thank you,
I'm going to You're gonna be so good. We all
we all know you talk super fast? Do I recording media?

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
You go?

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Let me tell you something like in a way now,
I'm like, do you know way that It's like, oh,
you mean in song? I'm just saying your we know
you can get, you can hit, you can rip. You
know what I mean in that way? Is that like
a problems? Yeah, everyone's thinking about Charlie's. They're like, yeah,

(01:01:57):
she just talks too fast.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
It wasn't so fa.

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
No, I'm just saying, like, I've heard that album. I
know that, I know that you can keep up the tempo.
I understand speaking of tempo, you're ready to fucking do this? Yeah, okay,
so this is Villa Yang's I don't think so, honey.
As time starts now, I don't think so, honey, pubic hair,
Why is it looking different down there than up here?
I look like miss Frizzle got a dye job, and

(01:02:22):
I'm curly, curly curly, and I wish I could get
a perm up here and make my give myself a
little swoop. My pubic hair is so tightly coiled down there,
and when you see it on the bathroom floor, you go,
oh no, that is not something I want to see.

Speaker 2 (01:02:37):
And it's if you're living alone like me, it's just you.
I don't like how I don't like it. I don't
like what it says about me. I think pubic hair
like either. When you have it, it's like, oh, let's
let's shear it, and then when you don't have it,
it's like sheer, well, now.

Speaker 1 (01:02:52):
You look like a fucking mole rat. There's between second.
Why can't we just stay there?

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
And I'm as sure as helling are removing it because
it's like because, like I said, if it's gone, it
looks even crazier than if it is. A five seconds
but it's a jungle, and I have a really crazy situation.
I don't know why it's different down there. It is
in body hair all supposed to be the same, and
that's what minute.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
You are the only person I believe in history to
say you wish what was down there, You wish your
pubic hare was on your head.

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
I just wanted to go both ways. If my hair
on my head looked pubic, I'd be like, well, at
least it's consistent, right, This is so shocking. First of all,
laser hair removal on your pubic area, asshole. Maybe some
people do it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
The guys I've been hooking up with lately don't seem
to care at all about maintaining it down there, right,
or maybe they just think they don't care what I think. Yeah,
I think it has been so wild and free you
as I think, no matter your gender. It's like there
is not a great way to manage it, like period.
Well maybe it's also because I'm hooking up with like
men that are my age in their thirties and not
like just giving up. This isn't like when you're in

(01:03:57):
fresh in your twenties and everyone thinks like, oh, I
should like manscape or whatever, or like really keep it
clean down there. It's like give it a rest, girl,
Like we're all just trying to live life. When no
one cares that you're a hairy one.

Speaker 2 (01:04:09):
No one cares. But I bet your people cares thrilling,
it's freshly shorn. Why you have plans later? No, I
just it was getting out of hand and I am
in that liminal space now where I'm like, this sucks. No,
I'm actually okay, I'm moisturizing cool down there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
I guess I should use I should try my purple
shampoo for my blonde get blonde pube.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
Do my heart just skipped me something, You're like, just
speak the truth. This is Charlie Xx's I don't think
so many of your time starts now, Okay, I don't
think so, honey.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
I'm actually coming for a group of people, these people
who have this stuck up I roll the attitude towards
reality TV, you know what I mean. Back to the
beginning of our conversation, what is not to love? I
feel like there is such a high low conundrum to

(01:05:14):
reality TV that just makes me want to sink my
teeth in. Whether it be our favorite Housewives for Salt
Lake City Potomac also heard, also heard it's pretty good,
but also what about some other amazing shows below Deck,
below Deck, Down Under Below Decks, Sailing Yard, below Deck,
Mediterranean Love Island, Australia, British heard the US wasn't that good.

(01:05:38):
But anyway, I just think that there is such a psychology,
such a wonderful, amazing world to delve into on reality TV.
It's like the factory. It's absolutely fabulous. Just keep it
coming and don't judge it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
And I don't think still, honey, the world there. Reality
TV is not trash. It's not trash.

Speaker 3 (01:05:58):
It's all it's art. You watched Sweat during that, Oh
my god, I was like sweated and look, but that's
like a.

Speaker 2 (01:06:05):
Good sign like we had. It was just like, oh
my god, wait to clearvoid come in recently and he
when he sweats, he means it's the spirit movie. It's
like energy is moving through. That's what's happened. Amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Yeah, you should watch Couple's Therapy. Oh, it's so good
with around.

Speaker 2 (01:06:27):
She is the sexiest. She so sexy. Do you want
to be here? I love her and what just happened here?
I love just a tiny little what and what's and
what what was? She's like talk about this, She's amazing.
I'm so glad you watched it. I love her. I
think her fashion is incredible. It just cheat.

Speaker 4 (01:06:46):
Yeah, her apartment's really cool.

Speaker 2 (01:06:48):
Yeah, have you gotten to the lockdown stuff yet where
they bring the cameras into her apartment because she's doing
all of it through like tell her. So you see
her apartment and it's like kind of messy in a
very charming way. She's got our kids running her round?
How many kishses does she have to? I think she's
so fast. I love is when she speaks to her therapist.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Yeah, real, yeah, Virginia, Virginia's fron coat.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
She's a real super sar. But you've finished it all
the way through, there's like, I mean, whatever we want
to talk about. There's there's really Palestinian queer couple that's amazing.
And then like and then Order is like when she
finds out that one of them is Palestinian and she goes,
you know, I'm from Israel, right, and then order like
blessed like is like on socials being like this is
crazy anyway, but you should watch it all the way through.

(01:07:36):
You would love it. I hon't wait. But that's between
like that's not quite reality. It's not quite documentary, right.
It's like they know they're being filmed, but they can't
see the cameras.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
I think they've done that. Shut by I have no
idea how long we have left, but I'm like, please don't.
We could do a whole episode on this. I feel
like they've shot that show in a really tasteful way. Yes,
and I hope it never changes, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
What you want to what it is.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
It's like you can tell that well, obviously it's all
hit and that's like part of it, but it's still
really elevated the way they shoot it. And I just
what I love is that they seem to catch micro
emotions like it's really like intentionally edited, and I believe
it's like really smartly done through her lens. Yeah, because
we're making a joke about like what was that? We

(01:08:22):
saw it too, you know what I mean? And also
it has to be so crazy like to be in
those sessions and then watch it after because it's also
an edited version of that session. That would also maybe
give you a little bit of a complex like why
am I being edited this way and not that way?
Like I can't understand saying yes to that, but I'm
so thrilled that people do me too.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Do you have a favorite couple or most nice?

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
Like the young queer couple, Like they were really young
and they had been in a relationship for like three
years sort of formatively, and one of them wanted to
be in an open relationship and the other did not
or was adjusting to that. And I think ultimately what
they had to really figure out and admit to each
other was that they were not.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
Right for each other.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
For watching that play out was heartbreaking, and I just
hope that they could still figure it out to be
in each other's lives, because that's I think the hardest
thing about when a relationship ends is it's like I
don't want to lose you as the person, you know
like that, And I thought that was just like a
beautiful illustration and like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
You know, examination of that kind of thing, like I
love you more than anything. This is not right. Do
you have a favorite? Yeah? Mine is also season one.

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
It was the kind of like very sort of setting
his ways quite sexy.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
Oh, I know you're talking about man. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
Yeah, the woman who was sort of willing to try anything,
and he was just he would like get up during
the session and walk around.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
I can't stand it, and he was just like being
like very controlling. But his story is interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
His story was so wild that woman like fucked him
when he was like fourteen, tied into a.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
Bed and yeah, so the way it came out again
could be the edit.

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):
We don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:10:06):
It was just sort of like they'd done like four
or five sessions. Yeah, nothing was really like going anywhere.
And then one day he's just like, well, you know
there was that time where I got tied.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
To a bed, Like Awna is like what really, Yeah,
it's just like he just like throws it in out
of nowhere. Yeah that's real though, that's a real therapy ship. Yeah,
there's no like easing into it. Sometimes it just kind
of you drop it off.

Speaker 1 (01:10:33):
Well, you get the sense that he either was just
as stubborn controlling with like releasing that information as he
is in the immediate thing, or I think some guys
that are like that just don't understand that affected.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
Them in that way. I mean, who knows, but I
was under the impression that maybe he just like wasn't there.

Speaker 3 (01:10:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
But then the thing that was really interesting about them
was then Awna would go and speak to her therapist
about how she was getting very triggered specifically by him,
and that was like this extra dynamic that was really interesting,
and she was kind of talking about how she needed
to make sure she was providing like fair and equal counsel,

(01:11:17):
but she was like so annoyed by him.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
Yeah, that is interesting. I think there's multiple like people
like this, Like he's one of the people who says her,
I could do your job. Yeah, I really I couldn't
believe that. Do you imagine the gall Do you have
a favorite couple? I like, there's a couple of season
two that's really great. It's two men. One of them
is a ballet dancer. One of them, Oh, they were great.

(01:11:39):
They were great, and then one of them had a
really horroring journey with like sobriety, and then then the
pandemic happened. Then the pandemic happened, and then there's this
one couple. There's a problem couple of season three, and
she order talks to Virginia and she talks to a
peer group of other therapists and all of them like
help her crack this one couple because it's she hits
the watches like I don't know what because the guy
was and there's there's such a sensational clip of her

(01:12:00):
like they play at the beginning of the season where
she she just like Yep, they're screaming, and she goes
to stop. You guys, right now, I'm not the right
therapist for you. And then you're like, you're like, how
does it get there? How does it get there? Watch
you watch it?

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
And great, there was a great couple that was she
was a dancer in The Lion King, yes, and and
like she was like she was always busy at night
and so she could never have dinner with the family
and her kids, and like it was like a thing.
He's like, well, you're never home for dinner. It's like,
I'm in the Lion King. And you knew this when
you married me. She went the Lion King for as

(01:12:35):
long as the earth has been there.

Speaker 2 (01:12:40):
I know, security are icon? Are you a therapy icon?

Speaker 3 (01:12:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
I meant the Lion King being what a yall? Honestly,
I can't believe I was never not in it. I
can't believe I was. No, I can't believe I was
ever not in it because therapy.

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
Again, the King, I was like lying, I don't think
there's many roles for me and the Lion King on Broadway.
But I would love to help out you ushering, But no,
therapy is great. Therapy is great, speaking of great, Speaking
of great, The album is fucking sublime. Yeah, good for you,
and I'm glad you responded.

Speaker 2 (01:13:21):
Seems like you responded positively when I when I made
a comparison to XX World. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (01:13:27):
Of course.

Speaker 3 (01:13:28):
No, you're right, and I'm I think, yeah, you nailed
itailed it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:33):
Yeah, fucking good. We love you, Charlie, I love you.
But of course it's pretty fun. Let's the end every
episode with the song I'm breaking, Why do I Love
all your bells? You know what I love? Official officially

(01:13:54):
reminds me of he was my boyfriend, my friend.

Speaker 1 (01:14:00):
We figured it out that I hope that couple therapy
couple did. But Official was like I was the song
whoa like the little things are happening that make me?
Isn't that make us? Official?

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
Lots of culture eats. It's the production by Will Ferreld's
Big Money Players and I Heart Radio.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
Podcasts, created and hosted by Matt Rodgers and Bowen Yang.
Executive produced by Anna has Nier and Hans Sonni, produced
by Beck Ramos, edited mixed by Doug bamm anichel Board and.

Speaker 2 (01:14:33):
Our music is by Henry Kbirsky.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Hey, everybody, it's me Matt Rogers letting you know. Tickets
are on sale now to see me on tour, the
Prince of Christmas Tour, that is, I'm doing my whole
album Have You Heard of Christmas, plus a lot more
with the whole band all throughout December. Go to www
Dot Matt Rodgers Official dot com. See me in a
city near you.

Speaker 5 (01:15:00):
Oh,