“Gas Me Up, Lil Bro!” (w/ Joanna “JoJo” Levesque)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Look Mayer, Oh, I see you my own and look
over there is that culture. Yes, lost cut Ding Dong
lostistas calling what I chose to do with my hands
I was in raised my hands up like a vida
in our news space.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
I mean very appropriate. We have a Broadbay legend among
us today. Welcome, welcome.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
Oh, this is when I went to the wrong one
while I'm finding our footing here and what is essentially
a NewSpace that really says we're in New York.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
We're next to the Port Authority. Like, it doesn't get
more New York than this. It's giving Oliver and Company.
It's giving true New York.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yeah, when you say, I would say it's given to
New York. I've been so happy to be here. In fact,
I was telling Bowan off air, characters from the past,
characters from the past of the podcast have sort of
come back into.

Speaker 2 (00:48):
Play, and you better believe it took me two seconds
to guess who it was and I was correct.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yep, y'all Big Bro is back. Last night I met
up with Big Brother. You met up with him. I
thought he just like rolled into the chat or something.
Big Bro came by The Bro rolled through. No, and
I gotta tell you there was a reason why he's
a legendary man on this podcast. That man. So basically,
for those of you who are joining last College later
in life, we went to we were in.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Fire Island a few years ago and then Matt I
was not there for it. I got there a couple
of days late. Matt comes back home from a night
out and tells the house of his escapade with someone
named Big Bro and how they had something they were
doing stuff by the river.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
There's no river on Fire Island, Fire Island, Knights. I
was taken by a man who referred to me as Lilbro,
and so by transit of property, he had to be
referred to as Big Bro. And that was the sort
of let's just say dynamic when I was taken down
by the river which was really the bay, and had

(01:55):
pretty incredible sex. And I have to say, years later
in the UNIFOL Alert twenty twenty four, better, wow, even better.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Always that's always what you want, Like sometimes it's not
a given that it's an upper trajectory.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
Sometimes you know it's the worst when you have like
what we're gonna call like mythological sex with someone that
becomes part of the cannon in your life. You're like, wow,
remember that, and then you would visit it later and
it's flop.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Yeah, that's happened. If it happens every day, it happens
every day. It's actually real culture number nineteen.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
It happens. It happens every day.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Now, I have so many questions, like how did the
conversation sort of strike?

Speaker 1 (02:36):
He texted, He said, are you in town? I said,
I sure am. Saw you at the Open and a center.
At the Open, we actually went to the one. Yes,
let's tradition to that out of this like sort of
we had a we had a great weekend variety.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
See our guest and Mulamer's the musical Run Don't Walk
at the Al Hirschfeld.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
And you know, I got us the best seats in
the house. And this actually is a real it's a
real tip to everyone out there. If you ever can
buy tickets to a broad musical and the first row
of the mezzanine is available, grab those seats because I
like to see the whole production. Of course you want to,
and this production is a production.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh no, the mezzanine is giving you have the titular
mulan on one side, on house left, and then you
have the elephant elephant, the titular elephant from the Love
medley on house right. Wow, I didn't list so many
titular things a lot. It's a very titular show.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
And some tits around, thankfully, some beautiful Broadway bodies. Let
me tell you if you want to see what we
refer to as stacked people dancing about and I'm sorry
to objectify our guests this way, but gorgeous, gorgeous, stunning,
sparkling diamond for body tea, body tea, voice tea, acting

(03:43):
tea tea.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Oh my god, we were so sid well, we'll bring
her into this later, but we fully insulted our guests
in a way because we like went to her dressing
room and we're like, oh my god, your acting was
so good, so grounded, And then we left We're like, no,
she's fully been in like storied, storied actor Aquamarine RV
Like are you kidding?

Speaker 1 (03:59):
Where we like, oh my god, you're acting was incredible,
because well, here's the thing. When you are blessed to
be one of the great singers of your generation, that's
sort of going to be the thing that like, that's
the headline the representation. First of all, can we just
take the representation and it matters, But the reputation of
our guests singing voice, let's just say it precedes her

(04:21):
because first of all, go back.

Speaker 2 (04:22):
With me in time. Oh, I know this is mortifying her,
but like, this is just how it is. I remember
exactly where and when, and this is what I'm gonna say.
I was an information processing class.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
I had an older friend, this girl that I You
ever have a class with someone and they become your
friend in just that class because you have nothing else together. Yeah,
So I was in information processing learning how to type
on home Row. We all know Homeow home Row is
one of the great girls. Whatever, it's on the keyboard.
So I'm learning how to type to get the maximum
words permitted. And I'm next to my new friend, Jasmine,

(04:54):
and she turns to me and she was like, do
you know about Jojo? And I was like, no, but
what's going on? She goes, this girl is the most
unbelievable singer. She's thirteen, and I think, I think, well,
you were thirteen. I think I was fourteen. You're famously
a little younger. Yes, seethes for forty five minutes fast forward.
Finally we resume anyway, I'm like, let me find out.

(05:17):
That's when Leave get Out entered the chat. Of course.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
I was on the top level of our cafeteria mm hmm.
That's mockey Hill High School, and I saw a picture
of her, and then I listened to the song yep,
and I was like, holy fucking shit.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
I knew growing up.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
I was like, there's gonna be a day when, like
outside of like kids programming and like kids TV shows,
like there's gonna be someone our exact age, yep, who's
gonna pop the fuck off? Like I knew this innately
as a kid. And there she was, you know what
I mean, Like that was like the first person.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
And it got better because then I got the album
and I was obsessed with every track. We have to
talk about Breezy because it gets talked to about in
the book, and that's so funny. We must get into it.
I can't even believe her here, baby, it's you. We
were just having one of the great songs at all time.
Forget about too little, too late. I'll never forget like
what people think people like sort of like singing in
on the cross country bus to go to meets and

(06:13):
sort of straight guys being like, are you riffing? Maybe,
I'm like yeah, nah, nah, no, I'm not riffing. And
then you were like and I was like, do you know,
is this forget about disaster? The bridge of disaster and
forget it? And then everything since I mean, we've just
been so like enraptured by and impressed by the memoir.

(06:35):
This is over the influence by our guest. And if
you are a music fan, especially if you are a
millennial music fan, you have to have to read this
because it's important. It fills in so many gaps. It's
it's a great exploration of what the music industry can be.
Like is like just really really important stuff if you're
a music lover, a music fan and wants to learn

(06:57):
more about like the industry and this amazing artist.

Speaker 2 (06:59):
Just about how it's made about like what inspires musicians,
like the way it's collaborative, Like this is also grounded
in like this beautiful realism. There is also so soulful
and devastating but inspiring and uplifting, Like it's everything. I
have not had this feeling about a memoir, say well,

(07:22):
hold on. It was like, oh, like this is like
a friend reading like talking to me and telling me
about their life, but then not since meeting Mariah Carrey, I.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Was gonna say the same thing. This calls some reading
of Mariah Carey. This references that very same feeling and
also in that way where it's like a very unrelatable
story because like, who has these experiences besides this individual,
but also incredibly relatable in terms of the anxieties, the fears,
the self doubts, the successes, the blaming of self that

(07:52):
I think a lot of millennial people go through, especially
when you're someone who holds yourself to a very high standard,
as you should, when you are talented, gifted a certain
way with what you do, when you're put on a
certain pedestal. I mean, I just cannot say enough. And
this is a great moment. Yes, And she's currently the
Sparkling Diamond and Mulan Rouge on Broadway, and you got

(08:13):
to get the book. Everyone, please welcome into your ears.

Speaker 3 (08:16):
Joliv God, I'm on Lost Coach.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
You fully are on Lost Coach, and it's our honor.
It's you, guys.

Speaker 4 (08:29):
I'm honored. Thank you so much. That was so cool
to hear you talking about the book because it's one
thing to write it, and now people are going to
start reading it, and it's just just like blowing my mind.
So thank you so much for taking the time and
saying those nice things about it.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Truly incredible and like all the way up until the
last page, it was just so so beautiful and the
way you even wrote about it, Like I'm on Waikiki
Island in New Zealand right now typing this setting it
to my editor, and I was just like there was
just this like momentous like it was on the precipice
of something. It's like she's about to share her story,
and like you're someone that we've talked about on the

(09:04):
podcast since the beginning many times.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
Really well, I said, I've been a fan of ever
since I heard you sing a note, and you have
that you do have that with like people like in
our generation, our age. It's like this nostalgia and I
wonder how that feels as someone who's still like so young.

Speaker 4 (09:20):
It is weird and dope to hear you guys talk
about like the first time you heard about me or
heard my music, because I remember the first time I
heard Britney Spears, I was like backstage at the Huntington
Theater playing Mustard Seed in a Midsummer Night's Dream, and
I remember this cooler older girl was like brought in
this big boombox or something and played baby one more time,

(09:42):
and I'm like, that is fire? What is that?

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah? Is that?

Speaker 4 (09:46):
And it's just crazy that people have those like moments
with my music. Yeah, And I know it maybe is
cliche to say that, even twenty years into my career
that like it's crazy, but like, I don't know how
else to describe it. It just is kind of weird that
we're all the same age and we were growing up
at the same time. And I don't know, and.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yes, people can be like I grew up listening to
your music.

Speaker 4 (10:09):
It definitely makes me feel old and we're not young.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, we're not older older.

Speaker 4 (10:16):
So I don't know, it's just it's weird.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
The fact is that way, Yeah, isn't that? Isn't that
crazy that? That's what the fact is?

Speaker 4 (10:23):
That is the fact.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Does mid thirties started thirty three three? I don't.

Speaker 4 (10:27):
I don't identify as mid thirties yet.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
Okay, okay, how do you identify thirty three? You're you're
like a month younger December.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
Babymber, December twentieth, December twentieth, nineteen ninety.

Speaker 4 (10:36):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
I'm okay with identifying as mid thirties.

Speaker 4 (10:40):
I'm okay with it. I just don't yet I'm okay
with it, but I did giving.

Speaker 1 (10:45):
Do you know that it's always mortifying to think, like
a couple of years after you've turned a certain age
and you said at the time, like, oh God, I
can't believe I'm assage. Like I remember being twenty five
and saying, it's just such a weird age to turn.
You now, I feel like I'm in the middle of something.
And someone like truly in their mid to late thirties,
was like, you need to stop saying that. And I

(11:06):
remember at the time being like, why, it's how I
feel now. But to all twenty five year olds who
are saying that, you need to stop saying wherever you are.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
But the thing about you hearing this from people though,
like I grew up on you. I grew up on you,
Like you're just going to keep hearing that as we
all get older, you know what I mean? Like this
is just like such a huge important threat in your
career and your story. It's like and that's what you
build on.

Speaker 4 (11:30):
Absolutely, it's amazing to have that. Ieah, wouldn't trade it
for anything. No, hell yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
I mean we saw you the other night in Uge
and by the way, your performance is so great and you.

Speaker 4 (11:42):
Are the best audience members of all time.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
We tend to be the best thing.

Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah, yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
I'm going to give us that. Okay, I'm going to
give us. Okay. We're very engaged and we're very gay,
so we're screaming.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
We heard, we felt, we loved it.

Speaker 2 (11:57):
We were clocking people like there's a scene that takes
place on the Chanze les A and everyone's in these
fabulous Yes, this was.

Speaker 4 (12:05):
A gorgeous pretty sign is so beautiful.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
That beyond like the story and the music and the
and the performances, like there is just so much to
be said about, like the production design of the show.
Thank you for that, maximalist, sumptuous all of it. It's
so fucking good. There was just a couple of people
and I think we told Jay this just people in
the back, like.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Just like we can't even do that. There was just
a kisses from a long distance air kiss ye each
other to each other. So my favorite thing to do is,
and you're a theater fan, so you and like you
mentioned in the book, like one of the great things
is that you can go back to this show and
a lot of these maximalist productions and you can just
watch one ensemble member the whole time, to watch their
choices and it's so fun. So we were hiding, we

(12:49):
were screaming silently to ourselves respectfully in the theater. But whenever,
like these insanely like well cooffed women in that scene
would walk up to each other, they would truly touch
hands like this, and they would just go and they
were just and that's how they agree each other. And
I was like, that is everything, like the opportunity to
just be so dumb, so stupid, just like I love it,

(13:13):
I miss it. I come on. It's a good vibe,
the production.

Speaker 4 (13:20):
Great vibe. And also how hot is everybody in the show.
The ensemble is unbelievable. The legs on the guys who
lift me and stuff. If we could just for a moment.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
We got to talk about that one. Believe.

Speaker 4 (13:31):
Yeah, I feel as though you're talking about Alec, who
has big, beautiful legs. He's so fit, he looks like
I don't know, like a.

Speaker 1 (13:38):
Like a like a Marvel like a Marvel guy. It's
like if Prince Eric was thick.

Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's what I'm going to say about Alecs with those thighs.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (13:49):
So yeah, when I'm getting lifted all those times for night,
I am in good hand. Yeah, I know they are
in the gym just getting them reps int.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
No, it's great. The glue bridges were not missed. No,
not at all, but you so. I one thing I
was concerned about was when you do descend yes as
the Sparkling Diamond, which you do a couple of times,
because then you come back as the iconic Kylie Minogue
Green Faerry.

Speaker 4 (14:12):
This is Kylie Minogue Green Fairy, Yes.

Speaker 1 (14:13):
And so I was like, now, I hope she's okay
with heights, because when you book the show, it's like, yeah,
of course I'm going to be Satina amazing, and then
they say to you later, well, you're gonna have to
come down from one hundred feet every show.

Speaker 4 (14:25):
Yeah, it was so scary the first few times. But
I actually saw this show like two years ago when
it was the touring production of it, so it was
at the Pantagious in La I saw it and I
was like, oh my god, it's so romantic and sumptuous
something and just decadent, and it feels like you're inside
a beating heart. I was so into it, and I

(14:45):
saw Satine come down from the ceiling and I was
just like, Oh, first of all, I'm like, I'll never
have a budget like this for my own music. I
was like, So, I was like, imagine like getting to,
you know, be in productions like this. I was like,
I would just that'd be such a dream that I
just kind of put it out into the universe, and
the universe inspired and here I am playing Setine and

(15:06):
it was scary the first time coming down from the ceiling.
I definitely took Are you familiar with propranolol?

Speaker 1 (15:12):
Oh sure, I'm not. Well, she'll calm you down, Okay, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (15:16):
So it's for like heart palpitation. I get debilitatingly nervous.
So I used to like, do it just a cheeky,
just a touch of a xanax and just a tasteful
mindful amount of mindful so I don't like. But then
I was like, oh no, but what if I want

(15:36):
to cry, It's not gonna let me, you know what
I mean. So Panol for the first few shows kept
me right love.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
But now I don't need it anymore.

Speaker 4 (15:44):
Oh no, put me up there, throw me down. I
don't even need a harness.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Well you wrote this in the book, like I think
it was your first show, a seteene coming down. You
were like, not even the wings, like the ceiling about
to come down, and you were like, what would sateen,
how would the teen feel in this moment? Be like
I've done this hundreds of times. I love people are
coming for me. I need to be in that mindset.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
Literally, people like I don't even need to try.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Like I would say spoiler alert, it's like a good
like twenty ish minutes into the show before we even
see you, and like I don't know, like the people
that we were with, we were just like, oh my god,
we're here for Jojo, like when she's coming out, like
Aaron Debait everybody, David Harris. We love the whole cast,
like the whole crew, but we're just like they really
are like teasing it, teasing in such a cool way,
like Joejo's about to pop out, and then you popped down.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
You came down. And I do the same thing with
Nicole in the movie that were you a fan of
the movie.

Speaker 4 (16:36):
Big massive fan one of my favorite movies, Baz Luhrman,
I Love You and you know it. He came backstage
and he like showed love and I'm like, oh my god,
you like me. There's a character, such a character. Yeah,
I love to like party with him, Like.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
I bet that option is available to you hopefully one
of these days.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
He just seems, yeah, like such a character so interesting.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (16:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:58):
I remember the first time I ever watched that movie.
I watched it with my mom. We rented it on demand,
and the first half hour is so bad. Shit. The
whole thing is like, but you come to appreciate its
level of batshitness, like when you adjust to it, because
what happens is you adjust to it and your senses
are so overloaded, and then it falls into just being

(17:20):
them and their chemistry together just explodes. And just there's
something about her sheer star power and magnitude and that
like that hair collar, and like the way that she
is so committed to it. I just and then the
emotional place that it goes. I remember what happened was
we watched a half hour of it. My mother was like,
I have to tell you, I don't even know what's happening.

(17:42):
She I guess turned it off, left for ten minutes,
and she had she had probably gone to bed, and
I was like, let me go join this again in process.
So it came back and they're in the suite and
it's just the two of them. By the end, I
was sobbing a mess. Had never been so emotionally connected
in my life. And it all paid off. And the
Ewan McGregor, Oh, come on.

Speaker 4 (18:03):
Who really pulls at my heart string?

Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, that like shouty singing. I realize that's so earnest
and beautiful.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
Yeah, Ernest, Ernest, Yeah, the way that bas like his
cuts and all that stuff. It's very frenetic, I think.
And I love that about Elvis. I love that about
The Great Gatsby. I love that style is just so
so wild. And yeah, the songs. You hadn't seen it
before the show, neither we had.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
Why I took us to see the original broadcast and
then COVID and the COVID happen.

Speaker 4 (18:31):
Did you think that the songs would be different because
the songs are different from the movie.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yes, well, I knew that the songs would be different,
but I did not. I think the show does a
really good job of not telling people, like it's not
in the Playbell like you know.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
What I mean.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Like, I think it's a very good intention because it's
like we should be surprised as an audience about what
songs are being.

Speaker 4 (18:50):
It's always so funny, like when the audience is like, oh,
I see what you're doing there, Like when Aaron turns
his head and it's like when I say shut up
and dance with me or whatever, he looks and winks
and they're like the audience was like, oh that.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Song, now, I love that. So there's the number in
the movie which is Nicole Sing's one Day Fly Yeah,
and that's fully replaced by Katie Perry Firework, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (19:13):
Is that what it's replaced?

Speaker 1 (19:13):
Pretty There's a scene there's a scene where like, you know,
she is preparing I guess to the duke is however,
and she sings about her desire to you know, transcend
that place and do more. And I guess it's not
exactly an emotional one to one, but it is like
in that same place and Firework really it takes you there.

Speaker 4 (19:35):
It does take you there. Her duke was creepy by
the way like really really creepy and like in our show,
he's very sexy Australian.

Speaker 1 (19:43):
We were interested in him.

Speaker 4 (19:45):
Yes, he is interesting.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
He's interesting. Is interesting. Just someone hot is interesting. My
favorite way not always the case.

Speaker 4 (19:56):
They broke. Maybe I need to ask you whatever you want.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
No camera, mychnology on the show. We really don't say
much off camera here.

Speaker 4 (20:03):
Okay, great. I really enjoyed the way that you talked
about this mythical sex with someone because there are people
and the way.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
You read the book.

Speaker 4 (20:13):
Yes, but into the canon of somebody's what I'm like, yo,
because there are people who I've mit size. Yeah, of
course that is great. I'm just gonna start thinking about
and speaking about.

Speaker 1 (20:23):
Things sometimes though that is dangerous to do because certain
situations can't really be replicated. Like I remember that moment
was such a It was kind of watershed for me
that moment, to be honest with you, because I was
thinking back around that trip to Fire Island and like
we've been back several times and that was really like
the last that was the one time I really felt
like very like i'll just say, like very sexually free

(20:47):
and like I let because when you go to on
like a gay vacation like that, or to any destination.
You know, it's like whatever, like you're supposed to be
like debaucherous. Let's feel like it's like a Vegas thing
or whatever the fuck. It's like you can kind of
choose your own adventure. And that trip, I remember we
were saying we were in our Charizart era breathing fires. Pokemon.

(21:09):
You didn't want to go up against her, So we
were in our Charizar era on that trip, and the
way it was manifesting from me was just being very
forward and available. And I will say in recent trips,
I've missed that person, have missed that.

Speaker 4 (21:24):
You can summon that person.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
I know, but don't you don't I know what you
know what I'm talking about. It's like it's like sometimes
it's like the access to your your vitality is sometimes
not always like I know because you texted me when
you listen to the episode last week and you said,
because she goes when you said I need access to

(21:46):
my penis to feel like Matt Rogers, she goes, well, yes, journey, yes.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
Longer, I'm no longer and is cool for me, but
I'm I loved it at the time, but I'm glad
to not be on it anymore personally, of.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Course, But you said you were a situational girl.

Speaker 4 (22:08):
That's what my therapist said. She was like, I think
it's situational depression. But yeah, was prozac for a long time.
And then I'm like, do I need to be on
Should I be on this forever? Can I explore like
natural things? Can I explore what happens when I work
out consistently? And I actually try to take you like
prioritize those things. And it was it was very good

(22:29):
for me.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
What's your journey now? Are you? Are you vegan? Like no, okay, God, I.

Speaker 4 (22:33):
Just had a chicken finger. Yes, honey mustard babe.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Honey mustard Babe's so good.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
So I'm not vegan, but I love to like cook
plant based. I've been vegan before for a relationship. Actually,
I think it's like really why I was vegan at
the time. But then I was like, oh, I feel
really good and it's hot, like if you're vegan together
and you're like eating watermelon and large making each other
food and like being naked and hot. It was just
a moment and yeah, so no, I just I call

(23:04):
myself a flexitarian flexitarian.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
Would it be nice to have in someone you were
with if they could do the vegan thing with you again,
just like a new person.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
I really enjoy the freedom of like when I go
overseas to eat the cuisine of where I'm at in Rome,
if you will. So I don't really desire to be
vegan right now?

Speaker 1 (23:27):
Are you with someone? Now?

Speaker 2 (23:28):
I'm sorry, I'm this is like my roundabout way of
being like are you Are you dating anybody?

Speaker 4 (23:31):
I am not dating anyone seriously, but I am outside
out there, I'm outside and it's so weird. I never
thought that I would be on a dating app, but
I'm on Ride.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Yeah, yeah, I read that.

Speaker 4 (23:43):
Have y'all seen me? Oh okay, I haven't seen you actually.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
Any women, but I see some women. If you go
to the map, ye go y three to thirty three,
not mid thirties, not.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yet mid early so early, not identify thirties?

Speaker 4 (24:01):
Is there really good changing?

Speaker 1 (24:05):
And so when you're dating now is the intent? Because
in the book you also talk about like the many
intense relationships that you've had.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
Oh many? And what are you calling me many many lovers?

Speaker 1 (24:16):
No? I would say, you know what I'm saying. Yes,
and so you know, the words love addict are even
used love addicted. And I have to say I identified
with a lot of what you said. And lately I've
also been on the journey of like, I'm going on
dates and it's to spend time with another person, And

(24:37):
is that where you're at now? And have you adjusted
to that in a way where you can leave the
day and not overthink woo, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (24:46):
I think that's the beauty of learning how to just
go on dates, like what you said, and also like
not just because I've jumped into relationships or I've been
like this is good, I'm just going to go with this.
And I've been a serial you know, two years, three years,
one thing after the next, never really free falling, always

(25:07):
having my hand on the next monkey bar man, if
you will, you know what I'm saying, like the next thing,
and always having that security and comfort of the next person.
So since I ended my engagement like almost two years
ago now, I've been allowing myself to or try and
practicing free falling and like being alone. And last year

(25:32):
when I was in Mulain Rouge, I like, after I
got into the swing of the show, I went on
a few dates with men that I would have never met,
just in the wild of life and the circles that
I run in and stuff, because it's mostly like singers
and artists and performers and stuff like that. So I
was saying, like swiping no on anybody that was an artist,

(25:53):
and just I was like, I went out with a neurosurgeon.
I think I said this in the book, and like
a teacher and an executive. But the true is is
that I just do like artists. It's very hard not to.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
It's one less thing to explain about yourself.

Speaker 4 (26:07):
Yeah, And I just like the way music affects me
and how I love it and how I like to like,
you know, I grew up like harmonizing with my parents
and like singing with them in the car and stuff,
and I think there's something very comforting about that. But
I question is the comfort a good thing or is
it something that I should If it's familiar, should I

(26:27):
go try to, you know, look for something else. So
long winded way of answering your question is have I
figured out how to not overthink it. I try to
have a full enough life to where I'm like sewing
into my friendships, feeling good about my career, the work
I'm doing, like being able to look myself in the
mirror and be like, I'm proud of you. You're a
nice You're doing a good job. So then I'm just

(26:48):
like I'm a catch, and you know, I just want
to see if I like this person?

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Do you know what I mean? That's what I'm trying
to Well, we try to sometimes say, well, you were
the first person that said this, and I literally adopted
it immediately. It was if I'm spending time with you,
it's a big deal.

Speaker 4 (27:03):
The serious Where did you get that? I think I
just made it is a big deal?

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Yeah, it is, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (27:11):
And like, especially now for you, where you are feeling
this like not easey, because it's never easy to lead
a Broadway show, but it's like you are feeling this
like like that is a stable center and anchor of
your life, but you're you're now able to, like you
were telling us earlier, like have a night out like
once a week, you know, like that is protected time.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
Though, yes, you know what I mean, precious, So if
I'm gonna go out with somebody a fucking stranger loose,
I don't know what hell these guys are Yeah. Yeah,
then it's like it needs to feel substantial or like
there's it's there's something of something there. So yeah, And

(27:51):
I've never really had that type of stability of like
showing up to the same job ever. So that is
cool to know that I'm going to the same theater,
I'm going to see the same people since I was young,
and I love the flexibility and the change and all that.
But I think there was something in my spirit that
was like it'd be cool to be planted for a
few months.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, you were saying how the last time you did
Milan Rouge there was a moment when you went back
to LA and how you were kind of nervous about
this stability or other structure kind of just kind of
being put on pause for a little bit, right, Like
your life back in LA was just like catching up
to you again and like hitting you in one like
big moment. And I wonder now, like now that you're

(28:34):
back and now that you're in the city, like what
is is there some intention now about like staying here
a little longer.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
But they're not. It has to do with the show,
because you do love it.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
I love it. I love it.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, And Connie's outside. I know.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
Yeah, my aunt Connie and my cousin's girlfriend Billy were
from South Boston and they just like they'll drive in
so I get to see my family more often. I
was in LA for fourteen years, and I didn't realize
how far I actually was. Obviously it's three thousand miles
away whatever, But like it just made me into a
weirder person, Like I am weird, but like it made

(29:09):
me into a certain I'm just good. I'm good on
LA right now. I think I've spent enough time. Being
back on the East Coast feels right in my spirit.
I think I need it. I need to remind myself
of like this gritty little bit that I am.

Speaker 1 (29:20):
Like.

Speaker 4 (29:21):
I like how weird things happen here. I like the
chance meetings that you might run into somebody on the street,
and I like all the walking, and I like to
taking the subway, and I like the community that I
feel here, And yeah, I dig it. So I think
I'm gonna explore some more neighborhoods see what feels like
the right fit for me to come to Brooklyn.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
I was gonna say, what about Brooklyn for you? What
about what about like Carroll Gardens.

Speaker 4 (29:47):
Okay, I did look at a place in Carroll Gardens.
It was like a five story walk up and I'm like,
I don't know I can do.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
That's tough.

Speaker 4 (29:54):
Yeah, that's really gonna be a no for me. Yeah,
but maybe you can tell me some like cool spots.

Speaker 2 (29:59):
I'm trying to put my on touch with my my gal,
my broker.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
But the iconic running Row, the iconic Ronnie Rose her
second mention in a row.

Speaker 4 (30:08):
Wow, really just another.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
Mythological hurd that looms larned in the world of real estate.
Not exact. Ronnie Rose is my.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
Real estate big bro. She really gave me the business.
But anyway, I'm feeling okay, so not really you know what,
here's the thing to the Hirschfeld.

Speaker 4 (30:27):
Yeah, but like I'm not going to move into the Hirschfeld,
So like, of course, I don't know how long you know, yes, exactly,
just like six more weeks there. But if yeah, if
I'm gonna, I want to be a part of that
world a little bit more than I don't know.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
I think you are so where you belong on theater.
I mean, I just think it makes sense because just
because because you really are great and I mean like
like you really are like.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Little broad to that that's the title.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
That's another thing that up a little broke up, a
little bro period period. I just can see you in
so many roles. I can see you just doing a play,
like I mean, like.

Speaker 4 (31:14):
Great, yeah, because it would be so nice to not
have to think about singing. Do you know what I mean?
You guys, it'd be so cute to be able to
go out and have a cocktail and then show the
next day.

Speaker 1 (31:24):
Couldn't be me, you know what, though, I remember, like
I saw Adina Menzela in a play.

Speaker 2 (31:29):
Oh yeah, it was face face Value or something whatever
it was.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
It was something.

Speaker 4 (31:35):
She's doing another one. She has a new one coming
out soon.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Is it a musical or is it a play? Because
I saw her in a play and I was like,
this is the idea of famously of singing yes, yes,
and just see her in a play. I was like,
you know, if you get connected to this part of town,
like they'll think of you for all sorts of things,
and I have to imagine that, like, well, obviously, like
you're doing things outside of Mulin Rouge that are like exciting,
but I do want to ask, like just in terms

(31:58):
of recorded music, can you talk about the song Porcelain
at the end of the book. Yeah, is that something
that we're going to be hearing.

Speaker 4 (32:04):
Yes, I'm putting on new music soon. You are are
going to lead with Porcelain, which is really cool. And
I'm just so nervous because I just haven't put out
music in a long time.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
And it's been three years I think, so it.

Speaker 4 (32:16):
Feels like it's been thirty three years. It feels like
I've never put out music before. Actually it's so weird.
But yeah, I'm really excited just to rip the band
aid off and just put stuff out like Era New Era.
There so much dope music out there, and I just
want to play. I just want to beat, you know.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
Fun We were saying the other day, you're really into
the Sabrina album so good. I feel like you guys
speak to each other.

Speaker 4 (32:35):
You really just so funny and yeah, cute and horny
and I'm obsessed.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
I also, can she can map out a riff?

Speaker 4 (32:43):
Yes? Oh? She is really? Like is she underrated as
a vocal fast?

Speaker 1 (32:50):
There was this video of her like just messing around
with this Jasmine Sullivan song.

Speaker 4 (32:55):
Yes, Oh, I've seen and.

Speaker 1 (32:56):
Siss A commented like, I did not know you exactly.

Speaker 4 (32:59):
And a lot of us fell that way. Wow, do
you know Eric Vitro the vocal Coach's arian his vocal coach.
I feel like, I don't know if you went over
to the UK, Like he's been a part of her
life for a long time, but he's also we worked
with Sabrina. I work with him from time to time.
He's great, He's in la if you guys every n
it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
I feel like all three of all three of you
that you just mentioned, Like I hear a ton of
Ariana like in like all three of you guys' stuff.
Like I thought Sabrina's album was just like not only
was it incredibly well performed and well written, but it's
just it's like a fusion of those two things. There's
just a lot of personality. It feels like getting to
know someone better. Yeah, and I think that on your

(33:37):
last two outputs too. Like sometimes when I was reading
the book, I was like, man, this has to be
a really difficult thing to have such a complicated relationship
with things other people truly love.

Speaker 4 (33:48):
Yeah, it makes me feel really bad.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
No, no, no, because I completely identify with that. Do
you of course, being like, well, it means something to people,
and so therefore it is like valid and important that
you should honor as someone who who made it. But also,
and I'm just talking about like a little four minute sketches,
you know what I mean. Yeah, sure, let's say when
everyone comes hate.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
It's just like when someone just boils you down to
a thing.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
When someone just when you know, someone will just shout
across the street like Iceberg, and I'm like, I don't.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
Wrin is that it's happened?

Speaker 1 (34:23):
What happened?

Speaker 4 (34:24):
Yeah, I'm the girlfriend back.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
You're so good in that though, Oh well, thank you
so much, you really.

Speaker 4 (34:29):
Are, but please tell me more about Well, no, it's.

Speaker 2 (34:31):
Just I really And what what Matt's getting at is
like it's it's like it's a constant renegotiation internally where
you're like and it lands like the pendulum finally like
stays at are we so lucky to be doing what
we do? But like, I think you are so honest
and vulnerable about how difficult a lot of these songs

(34:54):
that you put out were because it was being dictated
by all these other people.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
Yeah, and that makes me feel a lot of ways,
makes me feel like a little embarrassed because but not
to where I'm like, you know, hanging my head down,
you know, like it's just sha. I don't feel ashamed
about it because I understand now like why I made
decisions all throughout my life, like even ones that I'm
like where I hurt people or wherever. But like as

(35:18):
it goes with that, like it kind of just makes
me really excited when I see artists that are just
I believe they really are fighting for their vision. That
takes a lot of courage. I think it also takes
a lot of support from other people around them, whether
it's their management or you know, just even family and
friends and stuff who like really see and want to

(35:40):
help them pull that off.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
I think.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
And I just I always felt kind of alone, like
when I was trying to fight for something. So then
I because I was going through stuff in my personal
life or family life, and I had like been in
this wicked long lawsuit and I just had no more
resources energetically or financially or anything. I just like felt
so backed into a corner. Yeah that so, so I'm
like embarrassed that I like did songs that I didn't love,

(36:06):
but I understood why I trusted, you know, executives that
were like, this is going to be a hit, and
I was like, I just think I'm supposed to have
more hits, So I'm just gonna do what you tell
me to do because everyone's telling me you're supposed to
be this or blah blah blah. So but I'm sure.
So you can understand the confusion.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
Because they happened to be right the first time. So
get in the book, you discuss how you first heard
Leeve get Out even as a twelve year old, and
you're like, this doesn't feel like me, and I don't
get it, and then you record it, you put your
thing on it, and it literally immediately pops off. So

(36:47):
then it's like it becomes a core belief. These people
do know better core belief.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
And it was no longer those people that were telling me.
It was just other people that filled that place. So
I was like, oh, even though it's not like Barry
and Vincent, you know, making these these calls, it is
other people who also have had success in that area.
And because it's a core belief, they whoever, they are
no better than me. And then those those songs that

(37:11):
I compromised on, it just never popped off, like the
promise was. I'm like, so then you just feel silly. Yeah,
you know what I'm saying. But it's kind of a
blessing in disguise because to sing over and over and
over again songs that you just really don't feel like,
you like, if they're not big hits, you like, don't
have to sing them.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Sure, I'm totally fine, totally yeah.

Speaker 4 (37:31):
And then like Creature of Habit for example, which I like,
don't care for that song. I'm so glad that I
don't have to sing that. I'm a creature.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
What the fucks, I'm a creature.

Speaker 4 (37:41):
I'm a creature, and I just did Masked Singer. I'm like, honestly,
I want to take myself off of this planet right now.
This is insanity, But that was the recommendation.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
We talk about climbing Cringe Mountain. I feel like the
way you wrote about your time on the Mass Singer
was I think kind of beautiful and sort of really yeah,
heistic too, because You're just like, this is obviously like
not where I thought I.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Was gonna I thought I was going to be doing.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
But you've you've like crossed that fire and that crucible
and like you can literally do anything, like no one can.

Speaker 4 (38:13):
Tell you actually really enjoyed doing it. It was during
it was twenty twenty or twenty twenty one, so I
was like very much about getting a check as well, get.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
The check and get out the use.

Speaker 4 (38:21):
I really enjoy that.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
So yeah, so it was cool. I got to sing
songs that I wouldn't have Like I sang how am
I supposed to Live Without You?

Speaker 1 (38:28):
Michael Bolton, Major Major, By the way, your cover of
Can't Fight This Feeling from Lisa Frankenstein, which came out
this February.

Speaker 4 (38:37):
Pea Williams director, Oh that movie a cult classic, instant classic.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
It really like that that song you gave that song? Yeah,
you really did, and you gave every song, but well,
thank you. I mean one thing that I think was
a really fun thing when it happened. And also it's
really interesting to look back now that like Taylor has
her tailor's versions and stuff. Is you re recording your
first two albums and releasing them in twenty eighteen. And
I do remember being so excited when when they came

(39:07):
out because I was like, because they weren't available for streaming,
and I was such a I think I didn't know
where my two thousand and four actual JoJo's Compact disc
was in order? Would I know how to play it now?
But when you did that, And by the way, Doug
Krantz actually as a gift when he when he he
takes photos for me when I'm when I'm doing my
show sometimes he's really great, and he gave me as

(39:29):
a gift those two vinyls. Wow, So I have them
in law eighteen vinyls. Yes, I love and so. But
what's great about the rerecording of that, and like I
was really happy to see that you write this in
the book, is that when you finally got to rerecord
those things and you have those little bittersweet moments of
reconnecting with you know what it felt like to record

(39:50):
them the first time. It almost feels like you can
speak to and perform them in a way that you
actually understand those emotions right and in a way it's like.

Speaker 4 (39:58):
Their new songs, Yeah, and they are.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
There were grown ass songs, grown ass voice the way
you do me.

Speaker 4 (40:04):
What am I talking about? How to touch a girl?
I mean, how to touch her heart? But like I
don't know, so you know, but.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
How to touch a girl.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
I mean, like it's really meaningful that it's like the
song that you wrote, and it's like it's such a
beautiful it's like Aretha, like this girl's in love with you.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
It's so.

Speaker 4 (40:22):
But even singing like keep on keeping On, which was
like the song that I wrote by myself twelve years
old from my first album, I was like really touched
by thinking about my little prepubescentself walking around the apartment
complex and like writing those lyrics and then to re
sing them. It was I just even in just writing

(40:43):
this book, in totality, I realized how very little I
had actually taken the time to try to remember because
I didn't want to.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
Wow, that's really interesting.

Speaker 4 (40:53):
I didn't give myself the time or space to appreciate
how unbelievable my life is. It has been the things
that I've accomplished, the things I've overcome, the to me,
it feels like against the odds that I'm still alive sometimes,
do you know what I mean? And so I'm like
take the time and be like even the wisdom that

(41:15):
I had at twelve years old to want to encourage
myself and others and keep on keeping on, like that's
precious Yeah, I'm like, oh my god, little Joe.

Speaker 1 (41:23):
And that she was speaking to you twenty years later.

Speaker 4 (41:26):
Yeah, she was still telling me to keep on keeping on.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
I'm like, what is happening?

Speaker 2 (41:29):
It was cool, But that's interesting to hear you say that,
like you weren't sure what the capacity for your own
memory was because like the detail is very granular and
it's very specific in this book, and I wonder if
that must have been And I'm sure it was like
a very intense process of just like picking out these
details of just like even like you talking about like
how long this hallway in this Vegas hotel was. I

(41:52):
was just like, yeah, that's so specific, Like that's tied
to a very dark memory. But you're like, but just
even in the book, you're like, these Vegas hotel always
are fucking law.

Speaker 1 (42:00):
That was very visceral. That detail is very visceral because
you can feel.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
It, so like I imagine it was really deep, kind
of excavating of like the details of those really intense moments.

Speaker 4 (42:13):
Yeah. I mean, I've been in therapy for a long
time now, so I have thought about some of the
pain points in my life because I've wanted to work
through them and try to learn something or grow from them.
But like that moment in Vegas, for example, that is
a hinge point in my life where it's also my
mom's story, and I wanted to be really thoughtful and

(42:35):
sensitive about the way that I told things that were
her story and that are pain points for her too.
But I realized how much I had protected other people
to where it was like too much for me to bear.
And like I can see that room, that Vegas hallway,
because that was a moment that I'll never forget. You know,
I can see the letter that my mom wrote me,

(42:57):
and I can see it strewn, you know, all the
things that are the book and that happened, and that
I didn't know if I was ever going to share. Yeah,
that my family knows and things like that. And it's
not from a place of wanting to call anybody out
or anything like that. Like trust me, I felt a
lot of I wrestled with it. But the story that
I tell in this book and what my experience has

(43:18):
been is about redemption and evolution and people can change
if they want to, and and that by sharing it all,
no one can use anything against you, No one can,
like you know what I mean? There's nothing to be
ashamed of.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
That's beautiful.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
And the theme that kind of rang for me in
reading this was like from the beginning, from your first
appearance on Kids Say the Darkness things, which I loved
as a kid too, like when they're product so I
loved so sweet. But it's like from your first moments
being on camera, it's like you were talking to a
very complicated adult. And then I think the theme of

(43:55):
this story for you is that like your whole life
and your career has been about like being affected by
these very complicated individuals, and that you, by the end
of it, have the grace to forgive a lot of
them and to complete them as people in the way
that you talk and write about them. I think that
is like the story of Jojo to me, like, oh my.

Speaker 4 (44:16):
God, thank you for saying it, Like, yeah, I really
appreciate it because I had a lot of I did
have fear about anybody feeling upset or like I put
them out there. I look, I don't paint myself in
like the rosiest you know light. I'm not a victim,
nor am I a villain. I've been all things. Yeah,

(44:36):
and a lot of people have been that in my
life too.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
So it's not like anyone can read this book and
be like, Wow, she really went out of her way
to make it seem like everyone was the bad guy good.
That's not how I look at it.

Speaker 4 (44:48):
That's what I look at it.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
In fact, I think one of my favorite parts of
this book is when you literally just tee it up
by being like, I don't even know how to say this,
I'm just going to say it, I cheated on awesome person,
this this incredible person. And I think that that was
actually one of the things that of course, like if

(45:11):
you're on your like moral high horse or whatever like
which people of course, undoubtedly maybe you might not see
yourself in it. But I think that, like, all I
know is this idea that I know this is the
wrong thing to do, but the urge inside me wouldever
you paint that really really vividly, this co.

Speaker 4 (45:33):
This compulsions, saboteur compulsion inside which which I think you know,
in the way that I think about addiction, addiction can
be to stimulation, to loved substances, to getting outside yourself,
to chaos too. I've flirted with all of that, you
know what I mean, And I think that I was
in such pain. There was such confusion and chaos in

(45:54):
my life that it's as if I needed to poison
this like one thing because I felt unworthy. It's it's
like I wanted to test, maybe subconsciously, how much it's
just there's no excuse. But looking back, I can and
through therapy, I'm just like why why?

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Right?

Speaker 4 (46:12):
You know what i mean?

Speaker 2 (46:13):
The excuse is the human condition right now, It's like,
that's that's what it is. It's like, it's irrational, it's selfish, selfish,
but also it's informed by like and this is this
is me. I'm not putting blame on these people, but
it's I think it's a product of you being the
on the receiving end of a lot of adults and
people who are there, who are there to protect you,

(46:36):
who made you feel maybe unprotected.

Speaker 4 (46:38):
At times I felt I felt very alone.

Speaker 1 (46:49):
You know, who looms very large in this book who
I wanted to ask you about is Aliyah. Like from
the very beginning, it feels like there's this moment where
you go into Barry Hankerson, who was her uncle, yeah,
and who was you know, the founder of Blackground, and
you know he obviously is a complicated figure in the

(47:09):
book and at large. But there was a moment where
you sing for him and it was their first time
meeting him, and there's a moment where he says he
literally saw her spirit, and her spirit told him that
you were the one to invest in insane, insane, insane.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
I texted him when I got to that part, insane, but.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
That in many ways it's insane because it's like you
believe that he believed it, but also you also think
this is a manipulation. Yeah, totally, because there's probably no
no more, especially when that person is literally at that
point like a specter, like they're not there. And her
image is so brandished and utilized for this thing that

(47:52):
is like you know, of the past, but also will
always feel contemporary. It's like she is an ideal that
can never realiz reached, unbelievable. And in the years since
she's passed, like, I feel like, you know the things
that have come out about R. Kelly, the things that
have come out about a lot of people around her,
I want to know what your relationship to her is today.

Speaker 4 (48:13):
She's an icon. There's no one like she has inspired
all the girls, myself included, but everyone who's putting out
music around her time and since then, like she is
the one, she's the prototype and an amazing actress and
all around performer. She was about to go on and
do the Matrix series, I think right like she was,

(48:35):
and she had just done Queen of the Damned and
you know, Romeo Must Die and all these things, like
just unbelievable. I feel so much for her because of
I know some of her family. You know, in dealing
with Blackground. That label was founded for her because Barry
had taken her to every other label and they said,
she's too young, we don't want to deal with it,

(48:55):
blah blah blah. Then he was also managing r Kelly
at the time and he put them together to work together.
The rest is history in many ways. And she was
not protected. She was a child, and she you know,
acted grown and looked grown and was singing grown.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
With look make her look very grown.

Speaker 4 (49:16):
Yeah, And there was this whole mystery and amazing thing
surrounding her, like her oral was larger than life. In
the marketing and the music and just everything was perfect.
But now that I'm an adult, I'm like she was
not protected. And matter of fact, I know a lot
of things that I'll never say. And it's just crazy

(49:39):
all the stuff that's come out with our Kelly, thank God,
because I heard so many stories. It really was the
industry's biggest secret, and there were people around that facilitated that.
And you can, you know, through without me needing to
say it, know who facilitated that, and you know, it's
just there's no way around it is disgusting.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
It yeah, really rough.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
And I feel like your connection to her is even
kind of projected onto the way that like background sort
of withheld both of your work.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
For so long.

Speaker 4 (50:20):
Yeah, So every label has to do a deal with
the digital streaming platforms like that was going on when
kind of the digital streaming revolution was happening and everything
was changing and people were streaming music as opposed to
like buying and stuff. So every label, no matter how
big or small, needed to do individual deals with all
the DSPs. My former label that Aliyah was on as well,

(50:40):
and Tony Braxton and Timbland and stuff, they did not
do deal. They just didn't get to it or they
just like, you know, they just made interesting business choices
that I'll never ridiculous, Like I just don't get it.
So my stuff was not available on streaming. Neither was Alia's.
Her fans were going crazy online. My fans were going
crazy online, and I was like, if I can do

(51:03):
something about my own history legacy being snuffed out, I
need to try to do something. And so then I
re recorded my own music. There was no real precedent
for that. I never hadn't seen that be done before,
so we just went for it. And then a couple
of years later they got to doing a street you know,

(51:23):
a deal with it, and then it just looked like
I just wanted to re record my music, but it
was out of necessity.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
And I could tell even then. I was like, this
must be a thing of like there must be something
fucked up going on. And the fact that you were
doing that was like both I'm sure empowering for you,
but also you have to know, so empowering and fun
for your fans. Yes, yes, because I'm telling you, I
hope so, oh god. Yeah. Just first of all, first
of all, to even have access to it was huge,

(51:50):
And the second of all is just like, I know,
you talk a lot in the book about like your
relationship to your singing voice now versus then, and how
there is a lot of anxiety around just the way
the human voice changes.

Speaker 4 (52:01):
For both every seven years, they say.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
Yeah, I heard of this. Well, yeah, you're your entirely,
you're entirely cellularly replaced seven years. But I think seven
is vocal. Well, but we're not. None of us are
scientists the chemist story. No no, no, no, no, I'm
not so close to a scientist. No no, no, that's
not true.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
But but yes, like the way you write about in
the book is so honest too, because you're like, because now,
I'm sure you love the way your timbre, but it's like,
I'm sure with the changes as you age, It's like.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
It was weird to accept, of course, because I mean
my first album, I hadn't got my period, Like I wasn't.

Speaker 3 (52:39):
It wasn't a woman's voice quite literally, yeah, not a girl.

Speaker 4 (52:43):
I was a girl and also not yet a woman
a woman. Yeah, so yeah, it was weird because I'm like,
oh my god, people always going to compare my voice
to a prepubescent voice. Yeah, and now I just don't care.
I'm just too old for that. I'm too grown.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
I will say like something about the first two albums
not being on string, and but then the twenty eighteen
albums being right, like there was like.

Speaker 1 (53:03):
A little they rarely then put the albums.

Speaker 4 (53:06):
On stream exactly, That's what I'm saying. So then then
it made you look like, yeah, but whatever, I think.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
I've just stayed with the twenty eighteen releases and I
just prefer those versions, honest dead ass rediction down, like
like conviction down, fiction down. I'm like, we're listening to
Baby It's You twenty eighteen. I don't, it's it's just that's.

Speaker 4 (53:24):
A little richer.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Well, it's just I think it's just better than the
fact that you still like Baby It's You. I do.
It's huge for us because we can't.

Speaker 4 (53:34):
Dislike too Little Too Later or leave get out or anything.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
All. I get what you're saying, but like you don't
really talk about too little too late.

Speaker 4 (53:42):
Because I wanted that.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
I know.

Speaker 4 (53:43):
It's that was my ship, like it was sent to
my sidekick messenger or whatever, like the demo from her
last name Cunningham, She's She's Super Dope, and then Billy
Steinberg and Josh Alexander and it was sent to me
and I was like, I knew that if I could
get this song, that that should be my next single.
To Little Too Late was everything everything.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
I just have to shout out, not that kind of girl.

Speaker 4 (54:07):
Eighteen just better than the original so much.

Speaker 1 (54:11):
Yeah, First of all, the way you tore up SWV
week like as a twelve year old kidding me, had
absolutely no right. And I was not surprised that the
girls were reaching out because that had to be who
from that time was like a singer, singer that reached
back out that you were especially gagged. It had to
be a ton of people what like around that time

(54:32):
when you get introduced.

Speaker 4 (54:33):
To like Brandy, Yeah, I mean that was like no
better than Chaka Khan. I remember, like I mean, oh,
Whitney Houston, I mean, send me flowers to Square Garden,
You're hitting no. When I was performing at like a
jingle Ball or something, her and her daughter rest in peace.
Then Bobby Christina, they sent me flowers, and I'll never

(54:53):
forget that moment.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
That is the ultimate validation as a sing.

Speaker 4 (54:57):
It really is. Actually I don't need anything else, period.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
But like there are so many wonderful moments of the
Boat Too where you just talk about these like moments
and these interactions with all these singers like Destiny's Child
and oh yeah, even like going to Taylor's house to
Selena and she was like keeping up with the lawsuit
and so many things.

Speaker 1 (55:17):
Victoria Monet. I love the Victoria Monnet piece because we
just saw we we're a Victoria fans. Speaking of Big Bro,
I think I think that she may have made an
appearance last night sonically.

Speaker 4 (55:29):
I love I have texted her this. I was like,
I have had some of the moment of my life
to her musical.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
Oh yeah, I really have got this fucking moment that
Arian positions We're big. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, look,
her hand on all contemporary R and B pop music

(55:58):
is monumental. And we saw her at Coachella. She killed it.

Speaker 4 (56:03):
Of course, she's a force. I could not be happier
for her. No one deserves it more. And she's a mother.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 4 (56:14):
I'm just in awe just to.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
See, like by the industry standards like someone quote unquote
older or like up in years.

Speaker 4 (56:21):
No, it's fire.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Yeah, she's amazing.

Speaker 4 (56:24):
Mid thirties, looking better than anyone in the world.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Yep. And it's just it's aesthetic is so you can
just tell it's someone who has, you know, for better
or worse. I'm sure coming up, it felt like, when
is it going to be my turn? But now that
it's like she can have this fully realized like visual
like sonic, you know, emotional identity and what she's doing,

(56:48):
that feels really satisfying.

Speaker 4 (56:50):
But that's the exact word that I'd use to describe it.
It's satisfying because of all the thoughtfulness, the attention to detail.
She spared no expense, she put everything into this. I
love Jaguar one and two. I'm just so here for
everything that she does. Like, I trust her as an
artist so much, and she's such a beautiful person, and

(57:12):
I know so many people that are in her orbit,
and I've you know, known her a little bit throughout
the years, and she's just it's so cool to see her.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
I was with your former castmates Liz Gillies and Frankie
Grande during those Grammys. We were at Ari's whenever named
drop but then but watching her win, like Ari Burser tears. Yeah,
Like when Victoria won the Grammy, it was just like
everyone on Liz and frank it just everyone was just
like this. They were just turning me belink. You have
no idea, no idea. This girl deserves it more than anybody.

Speaker 4 (57:40):
So yeah, so when she was on the fifth Harmony
tour that I was on too, and just to see
how humble she was, she was grateful for the opportunity
just kind of doing her thing. I think she had
written for them or was working with them, and and
I'll never forget, you know, just heard how she just
had a fan on her, just like a fan blowing
her hair, and she learned how to do all the

(58:02):
things behind the scenes. And it's just truly the best
story ever.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
I mean, as we're talking about her, like, it just
makes me excited for Porcelain and for everything that's coming
with you because because Sagittary Sun, Aquarius Moon, Yes, and
that made sense for me, sad sad, because it made
sense to me just because you have this thing in
the book where you're like I was always told I
was like left of center, that you always have these
experimental ideas, and that's like, that's the Aquarius, I think.

(58:29):
And then I'm also like, I think you're one of
those people where it's like like Charlie popping off recently,
it's like, oh no, the industry had to catch up
to that, you know what I mean, I feel that
way with you. I feel that way with you where
it's like now that we're in this like really experimental
place with music and with R and B and with
pop and dance and all these other things, it's like
it's like you like you're going to meet that moment,

(58:52):
you know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (58:53):
I'm so inspired by everything that I see and the
people that you just named, Like it's even I've been
doing this a long time. It really fills me with
a lot of energy to see that and to keep
believing for myself too that like if you are true
to your artistic vision, you are clear about it, like
build it and they will come and the right people

(59:13):
will come, and it can take time, but you know,
just to keep that faith is.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
Yeah, it's a long game.

Speaker 2 (59:20):
It's a long game, and we're talking about the culture.
I think it's time, asked Joe to the question.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
Yes, I mean it is. I'm just like sitting here
like and I'm just thinking about like all the times
you were like all I wanted to do was do
my vision and they stop me. And I was just
thinking like about how authenticity is while people are truly
responding to right now, and there's it's such a great time,
Like no one can tell you or anyone now that
like oh, R and B isn't what's in. That's not
the way we should take pop. It has to be

(59:45):
pop rock, it has to be pop dance or whatever.
We're in such an eclectic.

Speaker 4 (59:48):
Time and what is a genre even?

Speaker 1 (59:50):
That's what I'm saying is it's like it feels like
a really ripe time. And like, speaking of time, we'll
go back in it and we'll ask you the question,
ask what is the culture that made you say? Culture
was for you?

Speaker 4 (01:00:05):
Okay, I hope I understand this question correctly.

Speaker 1 (01:00:07):
It's okay that you don't give.

Speaker 4 (01:00:09):
You my interpretation. Diva's Live.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Thank you for anyone said it Diva's If they have,
they haven't said it today.

Speaker 4 (01:00:17):
Okay, I know that's right. That that was everything for me,
Seeing like Mariah and Shanaiah and Shaka and Celine and
Whitney and all of these women they used to do.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
It every year. I was like, why did they stop?
They have to do it again me?

Speaker 4 (01:00:35):
That was everything for me. It made me feel so
alive and I was like, oh, I want like a
little bit of this one and this one, and like
one day I want to.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
Be like that talk about genres are coming together. I
mean they represented everybody.

Speaker 4 (01:00:47):
Was Bonnie right there. You know, it's just yeah, so cool,
and I feel like now would be a great time
to bring that back. I think amazing they did something
I did like a Divas Live Chris this thing a
few years ago, and that was that was sick. But
really the heyday was in the late nineties. Yes, I
was a little cherub, Yes, sitting and putting in my

(01:01:10):
VHS tape, taping it and watching it back over and
over again.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Yes, yeah, oh that was the That was truly the moment.
I remember. It was like the first one they ever did.
Mariah came out first and she did I think my
all and then Make It Happen. Do you know I
saw it on your playlist for the album for the book,
I mean, like it, make it Happen was on your

(01:01:36):
looking I don't know how many times I tell you
I'm a fan, I love you, I love you back,
I loved you from jump like I mean, like but
I get And also calling back to her book, she
talks about you know, she has such a relationship with
that song because it was truly a documentation of where
she was at like hitting the pavements, and you know

(01:01:57):
that that's why she included it that night, said.

Speaker 4 (01:02:00):
What not more than three short years ago. I was
abandoned so very young, and so I took the shoes
the shoes. Sometimes I couldn't even I often cried myself
to sleep, so I had to keep on going, never
knowing if I could take it, if I could make it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
She's bridging, and then.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
At the end she is way lay yeah out. I
had all the instruments and it's just like the drum,
it's just percussion, but like everything roaring, she's just raw
because she is preaching.

Speaker 4 (01:02:35):
She is preaching me as like a six year old girl.
Was like just I don't know why I needed that
injected into my veins in that way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
But yeah, but Diva's Live was like giving you a
fucking buffet, you know what I mean. That's what we
need to bring back. It's like get all them on
the same stage, and you want to know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
What to It created iconic moments in the culture, such
as Selena and Aretha doing their sing off at the end.
I reversial amongst the girls like Mariah like, you know,
feel some way about it, I think, but like who
won that though, I don't think we can confidently say
there was a winner.

Speaker 4 (01:03:09):
I hear you, but like, wasn't one of them kind
of like just unaffected by it. Some were playing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Think Selene was just in playful mode. I love her
so much, so much for that. But then you could
see some other ladies were like in reverent mode. Like
Mariah truly was in reverent mode. She was like, you
don't go up to Aretha and challenge and that's how
I feel, right, And but Selene, I think maybe because
like Selene maybe culturally didn't come up in a place

(01:03:38):
of like, well she's Canadian, right and sings like a
different genre. I guess you could say. And then like so,
but I think like it was just funny to hear
about later like that Mariah felt like that that was
like this, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, let her have them
the Queen of so she is why we're here. In fact,
they built that night around her period. They had to

(01:03:58):
turn all the off. This is an iconic thing. Did
you know about this? She will not sing with air conditioning,
and so the air conditioning was turned off. I mean
it was very hot.

Speaker 4 (01:04:09):
Good for the question.

Speaker 1 (01:04:10):
Now you can see in this by everyone's footage that
I everyone they like as if it was church.

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
If you want another memoir to read her, it was
written by Dave Ritz and he interviewed her over years,
and it's Aretha's memoir. It is so good, really interesting.
I had no idea what her childhood was like. And
her father was a creep a famous pastor, mad creepy,
but really amazing, especially if you guys love Aretha.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
Were you like researching a lot of other.

Speaker 4 (01:04:40):
I was reading a lot of memoirs in the past
couple of years. When I was thinking about writing one,
I'm like, let me just get this all in my
brain so I can see.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
You must have read Mariah's Yes, truly, I.

Speaker 4 (01:04:50):
Mean, and her audiobook is really what is so good?

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Are you doing yours? Of course? Of course, and we
better hear you singing that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
I still don't know if legally they were able to
clear with the publishing I just cracked my hand on here.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
I kind of.

Speaker 4 (01:05:05):
Satisfaction, very satisfying. So yeah, I hope that they were
able to get clearance because I did sing the words
and the stuff, So we'll see.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
Oh, we hoped that would be good. I mean, did
you have emotional moments reading it was there parts that
were very difficult to get through.

Speaker 4 (01:05:19):
Yeah, so I did it over the course of like
five days. It was like five hours a day for
five days.

Speaker 1 (01:05:24):
Yeah, that's a lot.

Speaker 4 (01:05:25):
It was cool, It was cool. I'm glad. I couldn't
have let it go down with anybody else reading it
that had been so weird. I have a pretty nice
speaking voice. I felt like I could do it, So.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
We love hearing your voice. But but so in terms
of like the divas live of it all, we have
to know if there's five today, and yeah, that's the
thing is there has to be. I guess it's like
you have to build it around Beyonce, right.

Speaker 4 (01:05:50):
You have to build it around Beyonce. Ariana y Ariana.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
I want Yeah, maybe Adele. I always put Kelly out there.

Speaker 4 (01:06:02):
Kelly.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Kelly Carson can sing.

Speaker 4 (01:06:04):
There's only one. Now I need a country person, Carrie.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
I suppose it's Carrie. She certainly can sing like a motherfucker. Yeah.
I have a berries trainer who I literally have to
stop working out every time because he goes after this,
you're gonna be looking like Carrie Underwood And it's just
the gayest I mean has now becoming celebrity on the
podcast he needs to be on like but like literally,

(01:06:33):
like he always to say, after this, our thighs are
gonna like carry underwood and I have to put my
ways down because I'm like, you are so gay. It's
the best because no one gets it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:43):
Like the women you everybody knows I've ever seen is
that like factotum, she really shows them off on the
album covers.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Okay, she could be you just cast that like in
two seconds.

Speaker 4 (01:06:57):
I mean you starting with Beyonce and then me with
Ari and then ale I mean from there.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
We haven't even said the word Jennifer Hudson, you know who.

Speaker 4 (01:07:08):
Also, I mean miss n I rap oh love, Renee
kills it. There's so many, There's just so many.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
And isn't that amazing?

Speaker 4 (01:07:16):
Is it's just like it's a good time.

Speaker 1 (01:07:18):
It's a really good good like also like you have
on good to know? Yeah, come watching her moment now,
Like I.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
Really feel like that's the song of the summer nasty.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Yeah, but I know.

Speaker 4 (01:07:34):
It's a controversial topic of what is the song?

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
People this year it's harder than ever had we had
a really good summer.

Speaker 4 (01:07:39):
I mean espresso for me it's between Espresso and Nasty.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
I think we have to give it to Espresso just
because of the ubiquity and the fact that it announced
Sabrina Carpenter in this way that it feels like we're
never going back now, is it? And it feels like
Espresso was the most so nasty. Good luck babe, good
luck babe.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
Birds a feather like there. I mean, it was a
great summer. Like this is like there's a ground swell
happening in music right now and like there's room for everything,
and like fuck, like I don't know, like it's exciting
and like it's just really exciting me that you're you're
putting up.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
When do you think we'll get it?

Speaker 4 (01:08:18):
I think really soon.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
You think you want to clear mulan rouge and then
maybe put it out or you want to, like.

Speaker 4 (01:08:23):
What I'm thinking, get myself a little, Yeah, let her
cook a little, you know. But yeah, I've been sitting
on this, this song for a little bit and just
wanting to like make sure I got my business in
order so it can come out and do the thing.
And yeah, I'm eager.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
Are you is it? Indie? Now? Like are just still
on your.

Speaker 4 (01:08:40):
Your over It's on Clover little distro situation, and it's
it's cool, it's different. It's like, I respect so much
how Tanache has rolled it out. When you're bringing on
people and you're doing it independent, but you it's it's
not for the faint of heart. It's actually a lot
to learn from doing India.

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Yeah, I want to pick your brain after this, actually yeah,
please do Yeah, but anyway, uh, can you give us
some If you had to describe the new music in
three words.

Speaker 4 (01:09:09):
Flirting with pop is three words, perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Delicious, little hooks. But there's nothing like pop R and
B music. There's nothing like it. It's why I love
you so much. Yeah, I just love people who really
fucking mean what they're singing. And pop music is not trash.
Pop music actually is very powerful because it gets in
people's ears. And when you have a meaningful demure, meaning

(01:09:42):
like what is it called mindful? If you have a
mindful singer doing pop music, That's why Sabrina Olivia Rodriguo,
that's why these girls are killing it because they mean
what they're singing.

Speaker 4 (01:09:55):
Yeah, and imagine that feel it. Yeah, their song writers
and they are whether they're writing it themselves, they're collaborating
doesn't matter. These are their stories and that's why they connect.
And there's no way to like whatever labels they're signed to.
Are so lucky to have them because you can't fabricate
that they are real. They are authentic.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
These girls Chapel too.

Speaker 4 (01:10:16):
I think Yea is a beast.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
Beast like that bridge on good Luck, Babe. We haven't
seen a bridge like that since disaster.

Speaker 4 (01:10:24):
Guys, I'm gonna be honest with you, this is embarrassing,
but like I am not deep into the Chapel canon.
I don't know the world. Yeah, I need to give
it time. Sure, sure you're gonna like that. I'm gonna
dive in tomorrow when I'm at the theater. I'm gonna listen.
I'm gonna think of.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
You both, you think of us and send us to
sex because there's real writing on there. And she's got
a beautiful voice. I remember. So we were just talking
the other day about like when I first went to
go see her at the Fonda, and she she had
this unbelievable voice and her energy on stage. The way
I described it was like Annie Lennox meets Kesha, like

(01:11:00):
this like super like conceptual, like weird drag persona that's
like very fun forward, but this voice from like someplace.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Else, Yeah, like channeling something where I feel like you
were channeling something like I feel like.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
I'm pitching to her.

Speaker 4 (01:11:18):
Okay, you at the yes, my pinstripe pants are.

Speaker 3 (01:11:23):
Exactly giving, exactly like I'm sold on her. You don't
need to do it tomorrow. You know this might make
or brink her. I have to ask you about Iceland.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
To Iceland.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
Then I went to work there and one of my
favorite experiences of my life.

Speaker 3 (01:11:39):
Really, where did you you went to Blue Lagoon?

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
Which is iconic? I went to Sky Lagoon?

Speaker 4 (01:11:45):
Okay, I was looking at that one too.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
Really good.

Speaker 2 (01:11:47):
If you go again, I just think what a beautiful place.
Didn't feel like Mars, Like, yeah, you feel like you're
on another planet. The nature is like so unbelievable, Like
that's where they shot like Interstellar and stuff. It's like,
where can we go in the world? That makes underrated
film by the way.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
Really underrated film. Anyway. That's a good edible on your
day off watch do you still fuck with weed? No?

Speaker 4 (01:12:09):
It scares me right now, it scares you. Not the
season for me, for us.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
I get you from marijuana totally see, and we were
just talking about how you both need to take a
step back because we're actually our proper Stoners. But the
thing is, I know sometimes though, like just sitting in
front in front of an Interstellar like it really was,
and that's a movie I sob Oh my god, what
movie makes you cry the hardest?

Speaker 4 (01:12:31):
Interstellar? I definitely cried for that too.

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
Rival. Have you seen that one?

Speaker 4 (01:12:34):
I haven't seen that. I haven't seen that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:37):
First of all, Amy Adams is that girl and no one,
no one can ever say anything to me because she's
deserved in an oscar several times. Arrival is her best performance.
It's just it's so beautiful when you really get to
what it's about, Like it's one of those movies that's like, is.

Speaker 4 (01:12:52):
It about space too?

Speaker 1 (01:12:53):
So it's an alien movie, it's an alien encounter movie.
She plays someone who is like a linguistics professor who
they bring into communicate with these aliens who they don't
know what the aliens want.

Speaker 4 (01:13:02):
And I already have chills.

Speaker 1 (01:13:06):
So you find out that their concept of time is
very different, and that speaks to a situation that she
goes through, and it is an absolutely beautiful message and
it is one of the great films. That way an
evil move who did the Dune films directed it. Yeah. Visually,

(01:13:27):
very beautiful, very brand new in terms of like yeah,
like just the way that the creatures are designed, like
I thought.

Speaker 4 (01:13:35):
You do get to see the creatures, you do.

Speaker 1 (01:13:37):
You intimately see them.

Speaker 4 (01:13:38):
It's not like a big bro little brother.

Speaker 1 (01:13:43):
They made me shot Heaven like the video productry doesn't
know me, and so I feel like he just understood
who I was in a moment, and that's sort of
that's just gonna when they realize my candor Hello, Hello,

(01:14:09):
So which ones of the boys in Mulan Rouge do
you think should date us?

Speaker 4 (01:14:15):
I love this question?

Speaker 1 (01:14:17):
Do you really? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:14:19):
Are you both single? Do you want me to?

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
By the way, can you give it up for this cover?
This cover is really good. It came in the mail.
I took it out of the album. I was like,
I gass, be honest, not gas. I gassed. You were sent.
You were probably send a bunch of photos from the shoot.
When you saw this, you were like, that's her, That's.

Speaker 4 (01:14:41):
Be honest with you. I did the shoot myself in London.
We did a whole other shoot. It was just me
and Ronaldo, who does social stuff. He's he's worked, he's
been on my team for a long time. We love
Ronaldo and it was just me, him and the photographer
in London. I did a whole other shoot with my
book company. Hated hated it, huh and just went back
to this shoe and was like, sorry, guys, I know
you just paid for this whole thing, but like, look

(01:15:03):
at this picture.

Speaker 1 (01:15:04):
This is a beautiful thing.

Speaker 4 (01:15:06):
Let's let'sten to that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:07):
See. And also you talk a lot in the book about, like,
you know, the way that you have been packaged and
the photos that they've chosen and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (01:15:17):
Stupid.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
Yeah, yeah, but like you know what, that is empowering
because you're like, I'm gonna tell my story. I'm also
gonna pick the fucking photo. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:15:23):
It just had to be that. Yeah, come on, come on,
We've been doing this too long.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
To say, you know, we're over the influence. I just
love it. I love it so much. It might be
time for I don't think so. I don't think so money. Okay,
so we are. We've arrived at that part of the
episode where we take sixty seconds to rant against something
in culture that is bothering us a little bit. Now
today I'm not going to be so cultural. I'm going

(01:15:49):
to talk about something a little personal. And I feel
like this episode I've been very bodily, and that's not
gonna stop. Bodily. Bodily. I've been bodily my vocabulary. I've
been talking about Big Bro what he sort of makes
my body do. I'm going to talk about what's another
thing that's happening with my body?

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Uh oh, coming out a different end. No, stop, this
is Matt Rogers. I don't think so many as time
starts now, I.

Speaker 1 (01:16:11):
Don't think so honey. Why is my one foot all
of a sudden bigger than my other foot? Is? I
swear to God, if someone can explain to me what
is happening? Please. The other night, we were out of wedding,
I wore some nice shoes. I have these nice boots,
and I put one foot in one shoe, another foot
in another shoe, and I realize the one shoe doesn't fit.

(01:16:32):
Cut to about three weeks ago, we're with our stylists
getting ready for a thing we're doing, and I put
my shoe in one of the I put my foot
in one of the shoes and it's the same thing.
So now it's not even discriminating on it's just this
pair of shoes, like maybe something happened to these leather boots. No,
it's my foot. Is it the fact that I'm on
a treadmill a lot? What is happening to stop my feet? Well,

(01:16:58):
you put freaks out there, bang out. We can talk
not against it anyway. Why is my one foot bigger
than the other? Suddenly, I don't think so, honey, that's
one man? Anyone is it in every seven years thing? Actually?
Do you know why one so there is.

Speaker 4 (01:17:20):
I'm not a doctor and you're not, then shut.

Speaker 1 (01:17:24):
Up bigger than It's like when women are like, my
one tit and I do have that you have one
bigger tit than the other. I've got one bigger tip.

Speaker 4 (01:17:35):
I need to explore see which one is bigger.

Speaker 1 (01:17:37):
It's like, I guess it makes sense. It makes and
I'm literally, as I'm talking right now, I'm realizing my
one foot just feels bigger. I also think, you know
what I think I have? So every single morning, when
I wake up, the back like above my heel feels sore,
and when I get up, I'm like when I walk,
I'm like oh, oh, I think I have achilles. I

(01:17:59):
think I have that to.

Speaker 4 (01:18:01):
Achilles thing is.

Speaker 1 (01:18:03):
Tender right and sore. And when I was feeling the one,
especially on the right, I was like, is there a
little bit of a bump here?

Speaker 4 (01:18:10):
Inserts for our shoes? Is that where we're at?

Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
Suddenly you're identifying al It took me was It's like
achilles tendonitis. And I think I think you'all did to
go to the diatress. No, that's you know what I mean?
That is foot tea, foot tea. I wish my foot was. See,
my foot is not tea. My body's been kind of lily.
My foot is not tea. Everybody is stop, We'll just

(01:18:37):
tell any one of those absolutely stacked dancers. Yeah. Actually,
to be honest with you, sometimes I'm like I like
them all, okay, the one you talked about. But also
sometimes I'm like, if a guy like that was interested
in me, I don't even know if I would know
what to do with Now. I know, I'm sure figure
it out, but like, wow, like I used to say,

(01:18:57):
like my idea would be with a Broadway dancer, and
that still holds true. It's still it's true, But it's
like it's like a little intimidating these men are. Let
them lead. They know what they're doing, you know what
I mean. Let them hear that, Let them lead, Let
them lead. It's actually really coaching number nineteen. Let them lead,
they know what they're doing. Re Broadway dancers. So that's

(01:19:18):
If anyone out there can tell me why my one
foot is suddenly bigger than the other end wasn't always,
that'll be amazing. And yes, I check the sizing of
the shoe and they wear the same size. It's not
the shoe. Not the shoe, you say, Laurent. You continue
to do wonderful work. A shoe I was gifted dinner.
Oh my god, Yes, that wasn't a flex, but so
what if it was? So what if it was? I'm sorry, okay, ready,

(01:19:42):
I'm ready. This will be Bow and Yang's. I don't
think so, honey. And if I can find my stopwatch, wait,
oh there it is. Sometimes I get confused and I
go to the calculator one instead of the clock. They're similar.
Oh that's and I don't think so money right there,
design flaw apple, are you listening, Hey, this is the
one thing I don't think so, honey. As time starts now,
I don't think so, honey.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
Why is women's tennis best out of three and men's
tennis best out of five? I just learned that this
weekend after going to the Open. That doesn't make any
sense to me. I want to see the women play
a little longer, if anything. But if we're striving for
gender parody, then I think we might as well just
make up the same rules.

Speaker 1 (01:20:19):
Everything else is the same. Why could the number of
sets be the same. I cannot believe what I was seeing.
I was seeing Pagoula go against.

Speaker 2 (01:20:26):
Swy techy tech Okay, that was a thrilling game, and
then that and admits too soon, and then I goes,
I just see mister Sinner go up against what's his face?

Speaker 1 (01:20:37):
Taylor Fritz? Not Taylor Fritz at the quarter final?

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):
It was it was someone else. But I was just like,
I think I would have preferred to watch the.

Speaker 1 (01:20:44):
Women play longer. Yeah, I'm a news I get it now. Fifteen.

Speaker 2 (01:20:47):
I lost so much time in my life not standing tennis.
Now I finally do sports are back, y'all. I mean,
this Olympics really lit a fire under my ass. Now
I'm like, I'm second it on every damn, I'm doing
a little wars around the house.

Speaker 1 (01:21:01):
I'm putting the game on. That's why, Menda, this is
our big sports.

Speaker 4 (01:21:04):
Year in the game to see it for you, and
I want to put the game on too. When I
saw Challengers, that's when.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
I first of all round of applause, so good.

Speaker 4 (01:21:15):
So hot, loved it. But then I started taking tennis
lessons because I'm like, I want a tennis bae. I
think that's a sexy thing. I did watch none of
the US Open.

Speaker 1 (01:21:24):
Where did I go?

Speaker 4 (01:21:25):
It's not okay and it needs to change next year.

Speaker 1 (01:21:28):
I haven't watch any either, except when we went to
the men's final and I didn't even know who Tyler
Fritz was. He in fact competed in the final of
the US Men's Open.

Speaker 4 (01:21:37):
I've been thinking about this all night long.

Speaker 1 (01:21:39):
Okay, this is really good. Okay, so this is Joe's
I don't think so, honey, Joanna, Jojo Levesque. Her time
starts now.

Speaker 4 (01:21:49):
I don't think so honey. Why do you say? I
don't know if either of you say it like this important?
When did people start doing it like that? Is this
a Kardashian speak? And like the slow down and that
everything up. Also, do I speak like this now? Like
people speaking like they're from this region that doesn't exist,
or like you know what I mean, it's like it
no longer, and I think it's because of I think

(01:22:11):
it's La not not LA's fault, but it is probably
keeping up with the Kardashian's fault, right, Yeah, the slow
speak the and I'm sorry if I don't. I don't
know who speaks this way, but I started seeing it.
It reminds me of like the demure and stuff like that,
but like important, yes, yeah, when did we start breaking
like this? It's beautiful? I like it. It makes me
feel good in a little asmri and tingly. But but

(01:22:33):
what inspired us to speak this way?

Speaker 1 (01:22:35):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (01:22:36):
And also like it's interesting when I have to ask
people like where are you from? Because you just sound
like a Kardashian, right, I mean, so, how am I
going to fill up these last three seconds? Do I
sound like this too? Am I aware of what I
sound like? Anyway?

Speaker 1 (01:22:49):
That's one minute you are. You've really pinpointed something that
has bothered me so much, And this is why it's
a great I don't think so, honey, because I've never
said it out loud. There are people who be like
important important, Yeah, they will hit all that and sometimes
I'm like, I don't know, is it like an accent?
Is there just like is there a regionalism where I

(01:23:11):
don't want to like be like why are you saying
it like that? But it's enough people now where I'm like,
what's happening?

Speaker 4 (01:23:16):
Yeah, it's a trend.

Speaker 2 (01:23:17):
I think can you both can you both say the
word as you would say important important?

Speaker 4 (01:23:22):
And I don't think that's correct.

Speaker 1 (01:23:23):
I think that is correct. First of all, they're going
to be like not not a mask important important, it's
important important.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:23:34):
I've been called out because I say, I say picture,
like picture, picture, and I say, remember, like member, how
do you say museum?

Speaker 2 (01:23:42):
Do I say it weird that you actually say it
in thet way? Museum, museum, music, museum, like it's museum.

Speaker 1 (01:23:51):
How do you say it museum?

Speaker 4 (01:23:53):
Um, museum, but that's just being museum.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
How do you how do you say? How do you
say that the thing of a house a roof?

Speaker 4 (01:24:01):
Okay, but my granddad used to say a rough rough.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
But I say I say a rum Yeah, I say
I'm going to my room. How do you go to
my room, this room. How do you say the video
game character that wears a red hat.

Speaker 4 (01:24:13):
Mario Mario, I'm on island.

Speaker 1 (01:24:19):
I am like, if that's the thing, is like, if
I ever get a little angry or a little drunk,
he comes out.

Speaker 4 (01:24:25):
Yeah, my Boston self comes out. And it's like I've
lived in l A a long time, but when I get
drunk or angry, it's coming out.

Speaker 1 (01:24:31):
Yeah. You absolutely said Wicked earlier. Yeah, and you weren't
talking about it. Remember four film? Are you excited? Oh
my god?

Speaker 4 (01:24:40):
Am I excited?

Speaker 1 (01:24:40):
Have you seen that? No?

Speaker 4 (01:24:44):
I saw it in the West End, so I.

Speaker 1 (01:24:47):
Have seen it.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
So funny, I'm sorry, funny because they really dig it
because they speak in British accents in that show.

Speaker 1 (01:24:55):
It's so funny.

Speaker 2 (01:24:56):
Just like just the difference is so popular. Yaw, it's like,
oh yeah, sure that works.

Speaker 1 (01:25:04):
You know. There's been so the Wicked trailers have come out,
and I want to say, if you want to and
this is I'm just saying it. The best Wicked trailer
yet is the Italian Wicked trailer. The other night, I
gotta watch it. I don't know why internationally trailers are
different than domestic trailers, but for some reason, they will

(01:25:24):
send out different versions of different cuts of entire trailers.
I guess to market the film differently. I think my opinion,
and I don't know this America audiences don't want to
know that it's a musical. Well America, it's the studios
don't like to tell people that it's a musical because
they believe if audiences know something as a musical, they
won't come. So a lot of times they try to

(01:25:46):
make the movie look like a Marvel movie or like,
you know, it's.

Speaker 4 (01:25:49):
They tried to hide that The Mean Girl's Reboot was
a music. Yes, they did try awareness until later, Yes, and.

Speaker 1 (01:25:54):
Then it was full on, which is in fact, the
reason it existed is because there was the musical on
Broadway and then it was this. But they what they
will do, I think, or what they're doing with the
Wicked trailer is I think they assume that maybe a
lot of people in America know the story, and so
they're just building an around big set pieces and like
trying to capitalize on the fact that this is a

(01:26:15):
story about two women who support each other, whereas like
the Italian trailer kind of tells the story a little
bit more about the fact that they are actually at
odds throughout most of it, because you know what I mean,
Like I think there's something more international happening with the
way they're trying to get the story across okay, and
then the American trailer, in my opinion, is more capitalizing

(01:26:38):
on look at how beautiful this looks. These are the stars,
you know, everyone gets sort of a little moment, whereas
like the other trailer is like, this is the narrative
that you'll be seeing unfold, so interesting, depending on what
I guess people need to decide if they're going to
buy a ticket, which I don't know what's in dispute,
it's wicked, Like.

Speaker 4 (01:26:56):
Do you speak Italian or how do you know like
what's being narrated as far as the trailer or you
just know from the way they're piecing it together.

Speaker 1 (01:27:04):
Subtitles are amazing thing.

Speaker 4 (01:27:05):
Subtitles wow especial roller coaster number one hundred amazing, one
hundred and fifty years old. I'm not familiar with do you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:12):
Do you know? But if you're one hundred and fifty,
then do you ever like when you're watching TV? Do
you do the subtitles?

Speaker 4 (01:27:17):
Because because my vision is impaired because I'm in my
mid thirties, so I need the help I can.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
What a journey we've been on this episode, the.

Speaker 4 (01:27:23):
Whole bridge that I crossed to accept when you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:26):
Said you wouldn't accept it now you've identified as elderly.
Well except yeah, Command War. This episode has aged you,
but in a beautiful way. Thank you. You've told your
story and what not just here on the episode, but
in this amazing book September seventeenth, Over the Influence. Wow,
this is really you did such an amazing job. And

(01:27:48):
what I will say is, I know you didn't use
a ghostwriter, which had to be scary and like and
a lot, but I will say, what an amazing choice
because you know this came from you, and in that way,
it's a real page turner because you there's no pretense
and there's no dilly delling, and there's no obviously there's editing,

(01:28:10):
but there's no editing. You know. What I'm saying is
it's like this is this is it feels like what happened.
And I just really fucking respect you even more than
I already did because of how beautifully you told this,
and I thank you for it.

Speaker 4 (01:28:22):
Thank you for gassing me up this whole episode. You guys,
I am about to go out and take over the world.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
Y'all?

Speaker 4 (01:28:28):
Thank you?

Speaker 1 (01:28:28):
Can they call us too well to call us Molly pills,
Molly Pills, Molly Pills. No, no, no no, we're just
trying to I was trying to deflect the compliment and
I ended up being silly. But the fact is, we
fucking we love it absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:28:44):
I adore you. I'm honored to be sitting on this
burn orange velvet vels. Okay, guys, I'm a fucking last couch.
I am so excited, oh my god, so much.

Speaker 1 (01:29:00):
We saw the door. And the fact is we end
every episode with a song.

Speaker 5 (01:29:05):
It's just a little little you know, all right, doing
the same, you know, it's just too little to lay Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:29:24):
Black culture at This is the production by Will Ferrell's
Big Money Players and I Heart Radio.

Speaker 1 (01:29:27):
Podcasts, created and hosted by Matt Rodgers and Bowen Yang.
Executive produced by Anna Hasnier and Hans

Speaker 2 (01:29:33):
Soni, produced by Becker Ramos, edited mixed by Doug bamim
Aniela Board and our music is by henryk Birski.

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Bowen Yang

Matt Rogers

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