"New Depths and New Angles" (w/ BenDeLaCreme & Jinkx Monsoon)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Look man, oh, I see you? Why why and look
over there? How is that? Culture? Yeah? Goodness, Dan du
culture East is calling? Opening thought? Are you excited about?
Sort of I'm gonna put this on quotes taking seven
and a half. And when I say that, we sort
of told our guests we're gonna go for like a

(00:22):
hard seven and a half up top meeting seven and
a half minutes of pop culture. And then there we're
sort of some pithy jokes flying around about being excited,
like I'll take seven and a half. And then my
thought I wanted to open with was are we excited
about seven and a half or is that too big? Go? No,
I think that's in the goldilocks zone. All right, Really
you describe to me a dick that was like an

(00:45):
anytime someone says baby arm, I go, oh, let's reconsider. Well,
have I ever talked about the time I had text
with a guy I bottom for a guy that had
a baby arm and I'm swear to god, my asshole
made a noise like a Snapple cap was opening. It
was like, and I also hit, I'm a riya know it.
I was like, and we laughed and we could not
keep having sex after that, but that's okay. We had

(01:07):
sex later, probably about a week and a half later,
seven and a half. Sure, why did you laugh? Because
you guys bread a fact off of the cap and
it was it was, um, did you know that ten
percent of gate people go on? No, I want to
know this? Only ten percent? The market's bad. Well, it's
ten percent of ten percent, it's percent of the world

(01:29):
is queer. Right, So closing that loop, we're both excited
about seven and a half. But if it's a baby
arm and we make a noise like a soft drink,
you can laugh it off and just get ready for later.
So sort of that's now, that's a topic that's already
been discussed on the podcast, and we're leaving it behind.
Now let's move on to this new thing of how
many people in the world are queer. It was so

(01:50):
often said ten percent, but I feel like this this
number is changing. Well, yeah, I'm knowing, you know what,
At least in this country, the sense is every ten years,
So we're gonna have to wait for another seven years
to figure out what the new status. I have not chucked.
I just kind of pulled that number out because I
think that sounds like roughly the right figure. I'm probably wrong.

(02:12):
Can the census taker ask me how I express myself sexually? No?
Can they ask me that? Sometimes I go, how do
these people know? Sometimes I fill out the census and
they leave saying fag well, I'm sorry. I send back
the census, going you're not getting anything out of me

(02:32):
but the bare essentials. Yeah. I opened the door of
the census taker and I crossed my arms like this, Well,
go on, go on away, see what you can get
out of me, bitch. I missed the census takers from
twenty twenty because we were in the pandemic. We were
in lockdown and there was no sensus takers. Wow, but
I remember were there. It's been a while. It's like
Cannibalector once said. A census taker tried to test me

(02:55):
once and I said, girl, it's the pandemic. Come back later. Anyway,
Today is going to be a really fun episode of
the pot. It's been a really incredible sort of week
and a half. I have tattoos. Now, congrats? Are you?
Are you aquaforing? What's Oh? You still have the thing
on the other one. Well, they told me four days
we went to an iconic tattoo artist Boonen came and

(03:16):
I got a little house on my wrist to get
a matching tattooth house. And I got this twenty two
on my other risk to denote a powerful year, a
powerful year and a powerful Taylor's Swift song as well.
Producer Becca says in the chat they came in twenty twenty,
but apparently in twenty twenty one they are now asking
about sexual orientation. Before then, they did not ask sexual

(03:37):
orientation in the census. Good to know, So we're going
to find out in nine years. Oh I'm sorry, seven years.
I don't know. I don't want to know who cares, Okay,
I don't want to know anyone else's. It's not queer to, like, yeah, exactly,
be known in that way. It's not queer to be
known in that way. Isn't that such a beautiful Oscar
wild thought. It's not queer to be known in that way.

(03:59):
It's queer to be known in that way. Oh my god.
I went to Queer Britain. This lovely museum in the UK.
They have Oscar Wilde's prison door. Once in the exhib
I go, this is this is too sad. I got
if Waltz could talk anyway. Wait, prison door? Was he
in prison for homosexuality? They threw him in jail, they did.

(04:20):
We can't talk about it. It's too sad. Can you imagine? No, Well,
the mood is horrible now. Now the mood's bad. So
many queer gay writers from the past suffer terrible face. Yeah,
bring the mood back up. Frank O'Hara got run over
by a car and on Fire Island. That's how he died.
I did not know about that. And to hear about this,

(04:40):
and I'm so happy we're sort of starting this podcast
in this way. I did not know he was run
over on fire in the Fire Island pines. That was awful.
I think we can not have better guests. I mean,
as the guests. This is the perfect sort of intro
lead into our guests. I would say, these are too

(05:01):
cerebral people, very smart people who are going to have
a lot to say about this. The Frank O'Hara and
Oscar Wilde of our generation. Something. Keep them inside, keep
him inside. I gotta say I was a little um
not nervous. I just had you stress. It's the good
kind of stress when you go into a situation. Why, like, oh,
because of our guests. Yeah, I'm so excited. Here's the thing, genuine, true,

(05:25):
deep wells of talent. And I mean, if you were
lucky enough to see their Christmas tour, then you were
one of the luckiest fuckers in America. I could not
see them because I was on my own tour, but
I did sort of run into them iconically in the
Ronald Reagan airport and we took a powerful queer photo
that I posted too Grid because I said, this is

(05:46):
too powerful. It's what Reagan would have wanted. The only
thing missing was you bow. Then it would have burned
to the ground. It's like a scene out at the
Comeback or something. You know, It's like two different queer
Christmas comedy shows touring at the same time, but meaning
each there at the airport running into each other. The
airport is very like curb your enthusiasm to come back.
I love that. It's like a little like behind the
scenes of showbiz kind of thing. And that's why I

(06:08):
brought it right to the grid right right. You know
them from not just Drag Race, but Drag Race All Stars.
You know them from a multitude of projects between them
and if you're lucky enough to be in New York
right now, you can go see one of them on
Broadway as Major Mama Morton. We were so lucky to
be able to go. I was personally blessed to be

(06:29):
in the front row, which that's I sort of get
really high and then just buy tickets, and then when
I show up, I realized, oh, I bought front Row Center,
Orchestra Center, Orchestra front Row. I was like, okay, I
was enveloped and it was one of the best things
I've seen, and I've been seeing everything and I was
so happy. I went excellent, electrifying. The energy in that

(06:51):
audience is truly incredible. I've never really seen anything like
it and brand new, and it's a brand new energy.
We're going to talk about it, but gosh, you know him,
you love them, and if you weren't lucky enough to
see their Christmas special, it is beautifully captured as a
one hour special that you can see on any streaming
service you'd like any for rental or purchase any one

(07:12):
of them, except for the ones that you subscribe to.
Is that correct. We're so thrilled to have them here.
It's truly our honor to have banjo mon Hello high high,
Hi hi hi Hi. Is every introduction that gushing because no,

(07:34):
say no, I said no, they're not always that gushing
in every single sense of the term. No. This is
major and huge. It was love at first sight for
us with both of you. It's true. It's lovely to
be here with you. Guys. Wait, I want to who's
the Larry David in the airport scenario? Oh, I guess

(07:54):
who was it? Following? I mean, look, whoever's the richest? Yeah,
who's thet's top Let's get real real about the great
place to start. Whoever's the most into crypto? That would
be Ben. I think I just need to point out that. Okay,
first of all, thank all three of you for coming

(08:16):
to see Chicago on Broadway. Y'all came at different times,
so it's nice to have friends peppered throughout the experience.
Most recently, Bowen came with my middle school boyfriend Dan Lansky,
the best selling author of The Gilded Razor that is

(08:39):
written about his youth and overcoming addiction. And he couldn't
remember a lot of the details of when we dated,
so I helped him write the chapter that's about me
cheating on him in middle school? Oh wow, I heard
there was a really sore did love triangle at which

(09:02):
Jenks was the vertex of this triangle? Is that correct?
It was me and two boys named Sam. Wow, true
middle school strumpet behavior. I've always been a huh. Yeah.
It continued through life. It's not as if that was
some sort of childish phase. The childishness was ever thinking

(09:24):
that I was someone who should be monogamous, and that
ended at middle school. That's beautiful. And then do you
feel some sort of cosmic connection to the people named
Sam or is that just trivial? People named Sam just
come into my life and stay there. But you have
remained friends clearly. Yeah, Sam Landsky and I. It's just oh.

(09:48):
And then the third Sam in question is Sam Rogers.
I hope he doesn't mind me name in him. But
I really like bringing up these two. They've both been
on They weren't on my podcast yet, but they were
on the thing that predates my podcast, which is a
digital show I did in the Pandemic called Jinks Calls
Her Friends, and that's exactly what it was. And I

(10:13):
called both of these Sam's. And what's really really cool
is we all met in middle school. We were all queer.
We were all the same age. Sam Lansky and I
came out really early. Sam Rogers came out in high school.
We all said in middle school what we wanted to
do with our lives, and all three of us do
exactly what we said we were going to do in

(10:34):
middle school, including Sam Rogers, who said he wanted to
be a famous actor and a lawyer. And he was
in the revival of Westside Story on Broadway. And then
when he felt like he had had felt his acting oats,
he retired from acting, went back to school, and now
he's a lawyer too. And not every love triangle, everyone

(10:57):
sort of gets what they want, you know what I mean,
really rare for everyone, and I love triangle to like
leave it and go on to sort of good things.
You know, you could y'all could have really broken each
other right there. I know. I think it's queerness. I mean,
I think if the queer people in my life, like
Dayla is probably the most type A. I don't even

(11:19):
she's a monster, but like also she's incredible, Like it's
she's an incredible monster. She's a deity. She's a wrathful deity.
She's capable of such incredible things with her personality, and
it comes, you know, at a cost for everyone involved,
including her. But queer people just get shit done. I mean,

(11:43):
look at the four of us. If the four of
us ever morphed into one person, we'd be the next president.
I think we can do it as a refracted beam
of light for people. We can each run for office.
That's my take. I'm in to it. I mean, is
there any reason we can't kind of reconfigure things where
actually our quadruple just is I mean, maybe this is

(12:06):
becomes one of those successful offshoots of one of Jinx's
early relationships, and we all go for the presidency together
as a as a four person ticket, three first husbands,
and uh you know, we take turn playing. Absolutely there
are swings and DayLA's sipping from a manifest that ship

(12:28):
mug and so is just in the air. This was
It's maybe the cheesiest drink where I've ever owned, but
it was sent to me by my drag hero of
our La, Jean Merman, and I'm like, I will always
drink for it from it forever. It is a great
gift and it can be powerful. Bead Wong sent me
a mug. That's my favorite Muggets as the word balls

(12:49):
on it. I love it. And I don't think you
can escape cheesiness or corniness if you have text on
a mug. You just have to embrace the fact that
it's like, it's silly, it's lovely, it's low steaks. It's
rule of culture. Mugs can be silly. It's actually a
rule of culture. Bone. What number was that, fifty seven?

(13:09):
It was a real culture number, fifty seven. Mugs silly.
I mean, we're we're drinking coffee, we're having fun already.
Why not have more fun? Why not say it with me?
Mat Dragon, Oh my god, exactly. And this is actually
this mugs first public appearance, so yeah, this is the
big moment. Told us it's coming out party. Yes, wait,

(13:33):
Jinx is in New York obviously, mattson La daylor where
are you joining us from? I'm getting PMW vibe. I'm
in Los Angeles as well, sort of a beautiful day. Huh.
It's it's lovely, but I'm in my studio, which is
a basement, so it's neither here nor there. But yes, well,
if anytime you want to emerge, hon Knee La is laing,

(13:53):
I'm ready, Where are we going to the market? How
fun was the war? Was that the situation of every
day is incredible and gorgeous. And because we have one
person that's like, hey, come on, we're gonna make the
flight and one person who's like, I'm coming, I'm coming,
I'm coming is Jinx's battle grain. Our tours are a

(14:15):
lot because we have a huge emotional investment in the show. Right.
It's not like a show where it's just like you
get up and do a couple numbers and you know,
you have a meet and greet and you're girl and
with the girls backstage. Our show is our baby. It
is also you know, it's our opus, our annual opus

(14:38):
that we pour our heart and souls into, you know it.
Really we put a lot of ourselves into it. So
how the show goes each night determines how we are
until the following show. Basically, I have to say more

(14:59):
than any other year. Year, like you and I didn't
come off stage like it was. You know, sometimes you
come off stage and early, oh how did that you
end up being? What that was to me? And I
don't think we had a show like that this year.
It was a good feeling. It was amazing this year,
being the first year back to touring post pandemic, where

(15:20):
people started to feel at ease of even being there. Like,
you know, our tour last year or two years ago
got canceled at the end of it because everyone got COVID,
not just us, everyone, you know, it was like another wave,
so a lot of things went back down, And now
it's been it feels like we're all starting to actually

(15:41):
feel over the worst of it. So there is a
gratitude between performers and audiences right now that is palpable.
It's like we're all so grateful to be back at it.
And I think a lot of people have realized what
aspects of live entertainment they were taking for granted, both

(16:04):
your performers and audience members. So I have felt it
through our holiday tour. I felt it this entire run
of Chicago, like audiences are really really excited to be
back in the theater, and it's it's just like a
chicken in an egg thing, because performers are bringing a
lot of joy to their performance, just happy to be

(16:26):
back at it, and that makes the audience excited and
then they excited. We all just love each other because
none of us got childhoods and the energies was really
grant and I like, and maybe it is because there
was the pandemic and I didn't obviously we didn't see anything.

(16:49):
You kind of take for granted what you didn't see
before that. Like I kicked myself thinking about how long
I lived in New York and I didn't see all
these like incredible shows like all throughout my twenties. You
can't replicate that experience. And then all of a sudden
you turned around and so and so's not in the
show anymore, that show's not available to see anymore. So yeah,
that's definitely been true for me. I am online on

(17:09):
Broadway dot Com purchasing. But with the tour, it's like
I think, because would you say that the tour kind
of is this fastimily of like your dynamic in real
life or like then Dayla is like trying to like
execute on this like holiday special and Jinks is like, well,
I don't have the same idea of a Christmas special thing.
And then the new I mean, like but to do

(17:31):
that every night is I would say, like maybe emotionally
like like like the boundaries, like like the boundaries move
a little bit, or are aren't totally defined? Do you
ever get lost? It's changed a little over the years too,
because we rewrite the show essentially every year. We always
are like, oh, let's change one or two things, and
then it's like ninety percent different. But this did definitely

(17:52):
reflect I mean, I was the one who was like, Jinks,
we should do a holiday show, like initially, and we
sort of talked about this thing, being like, we'll do
We'll make it really easy, breezy. You know, we used
to host these drag race like viewing parties. We'll just
get up there and like, you know, have a few drinks.
Jinks doesn't drink anymore, but we used to have a
couple of martinis, like, sing some songs. It'll be very casual,

(18:15):
and then I sort of Jinks. I may be misremembering this,
but I think this is an accurate representation of our
dynamic that I was like, no, actually, scratch that. We're
scripting an entire thing, and so it is very much
The character is very much a reflection of that. And
I am always sort of in real life, I'm not
dragging Jinks through anything because she's exceptionally game. But I

(18:39):
also think that, you know, we've had this character dynamic
where we're really adversarial, and this year was the first
year where we were like, with this show, we're starting
to develop more of a buddy comedy thing where we're
like on an adventure together. Yeah, because I think it
was feeling. I think it's just our relationship change. The

(19:00):
show is changing with it. Yeah, but you know what,
like the first instinct for a queer duo to play
an adversarial dynamic, I think is like something that a
lot of people can identify with. I think Bowen and
I for sure a lot of our early work is
us being like super adversarial, and I think there is
an instinct to want to like stand across from each other,

(19:20):
like arms at the hips, like what do you have
to say to me? Because it harkens back to like
a dynasty soap opera type situation of like let me
best you and it. But it is inherently playful. But yeah,
sometimes it can feel like maybe sometimes it gets a
little real. Well, you know, one thing that I've kind
of been becoming much more aware of, and this is

(19:43):
one of the few things that can thank Ryan Murphy
unabashedly four is Hude, Betty and Joan really taught me
how toxic it is to pit people against each other
when they otherwise wouldn't have been, you know, like and

(20:04):
I think, you know, it's so funny you're talking about
you and bowen Dale and I had that. My music
partner and I have always had we're two people at odds.
My comedy partner, Nick Sejoya. Our early work was all
about hating each other. Yeah, So I do think they're
that's built into just being because when there's a scarcity

(20:26):
of opportunities for people, then you know, when you think
of females in this industry being so disenfranchised, and then
queer people in this industry being disenfranchised. For much of
the history, of course, we get pitted against each other
because we're being told there's only one spot for us.

(20:48):
And what we're finding out these days is no, let's
claim a lot more space. Rather than fighting over the
one spot, let's demand two spots and Dayalen I just
kind of naturally over the years, have shifted from writing
kind of like adversarial variety shows to This year was
the first year we wrote a play with a buddy

(21:10):
film kind of motif to it, and I think that's
the direction we're heading, because it was really rewarding to
say this year we are writing a drag variety show
and we're writing a three act play. Done, that's what
we're doing. I think we also write like we have
different touchstones now as queer people for like femininity and culture, right,

(21:32):
Like all about Eve is sort of how we grew up,
and now we have like Abby and Illana, you know,
we like there's a different shift in how women in
media are sort of no longer being presented as pitted
against each other in the way that they were at
a different time. Yeah, it's less like I'm looking hot today,
isn't it? And it's more like you're looking hot today?
You know. Of such an amazing shift, and it's cool

(21:55):
to see that expand into the world of drag, which
is historically had Yeah, totally. But I think this is
all leading to both of you doing at some point
like whatever happened to Baby Jane type. We are so
perfectly already those market types. It's so already the like

(22:16):
bleeding heart martyr and the wheelchair and I'm so already
the bitter old vaudeville clown in our shadowy Castle. Um wow. Yeah,

(22:42):
in the spirit of claiming space and celebrating one another
rather than being adversarial. I just want to take a
moment to gush over the two of you. No need,
no need, no I need to. I know Matt showed
off his tattoo with the twenty two significant air I
have to imagine that in cludes I love that for you.

(23:02):
That show is so good and you are so good
in it. It's incredible, It's incredible. I'm so happy you
both enjoyed that, like the funniest, coolest people enjoyed. I
think that was the first thing that tumbled out of
our mouth when we saw you in the airport that
day too. I feel like we yeah, bowen to see
you kill it on SNL is just so significant. I mean,

(23:26):
like SNL is an institution, and I'm so glad they
finally are realizing that clear people be funny too. But
you are doing such wonderful stuff on that show and
so unapologetically for such a large broad audience, and that

(23:47):
is so important for our community. That means so much.
Thank you. If you have a flamboyant inanimate object journey
is I gotta say, I think I have to like
put a period on it because I love it because
it opens up you know. I think we learned this
bow and like bone and I used to be a
part of this children's theater performance collective called Story Pirates,

(24:09):
and kids would write stories and you would perform as
these things that they wrote. You would you would routinely pencil.
And I'm going through a divorce. I have to find
a way to get this document to my husband, who's
a mug, yeah, comfy mug. And it's just like I
remember when that was happening. It opened up the possibility

(24:31):
for what you could play. And so I do think
it's fucking fun that Bowen like plays these things because
it's I'm very queer too. I love it. Oh no, certainly, certainly.
I think I'm still figuring out where I'm landing with this,
because it's that thing where like if you do comedy,
at some point you're like, oh, when does your act
become your enemy? You're like, when does this? But maybe

(24:53):
that's my own fucking weird pathology, because you guys all
find ways to make things interesting because you is are
literally doing a show on a recurring basis and are
having to iterate on it repeatedly and making it interesting
so that you like fall back in love with it,
and I just need to. Like with SNL it's like
it's hard to fall back in love with the thing
because all that's crystallized is what's on tape. And if

(25:15):
you do want to read this that it it has
to like in some way outdo the last showing of it.
And so that's why it's right. It's a different relationship maybe,
but that means a lot coming from both of you,
because I think between the two of you, it's five
or five the top Snatch game performances ever Paul and
Maggie Smith, Judy Garland, to Touch Leone and Liliedi those

(25:35):
are in the top five period between two people. Amazing
you guys, and everything overlapped seasons. Like I think that
is It's this wonderful thing that I think is so
cool about some duos now, where it's like you see
these two people who are individually phenomenal and then to
see them sort of like force multiply each other is
just really awesome. Well, I'll let day La talk on

(25:57):
it because she'll be more concise than I will. But
I think my best work is in partnership, like across
the board, like I. I perform solo when I have to,
but all of my best work is in collaboration. I agree,

(26:18):
I feel the same. I feel the same way. I've
been told I'm supposed to speak on this side. I
just I was volleying it to you. I was setting
up a topic. But what's the topic that I can't
live without you? No collaboration solo? Strange? Oh yeah, because
Dayla was working solo, you know, and continues to work solo.

(26:42):
When I work solo, it's actually with my music partner.
We've always joked that my solo shows are actually two people.
We just call it my solo show. But Dala's solo
shows it's her on stage, and if she's with a
scene partner, it's a puppet that she's also operating so
and in until she can get her hand up there
and move my mouth for me, which I'm working on

(27:07):
and so. But you know, and it's true that when
I'm doing my solo projects that I am the only
person on stage, but I do collaborate with a lot
of people in process, so it's still the result of
multiple voices, which I think is particularly important when you're

(27:27):
been at it for this long and like you were saying,
bowen when you are. I mean, we've been doing the
same characters for right and in order to keep that
interesting both for us and I think an audience, It's
like we've constantly had to discover new depths and new
angles to that, which I think is really cool to

(27:48):
be able to take these I'm constantly discovering new depths,
as do you remember the wedge? Is that still a thing?
The sex I saw a lot of ads for that
sex with I don't know angles, but um, like something
you wedge in there to sort of, you know, just oh,

(28:13):
that's great, I can use that. Yeah, yeah, well check
it out. It's called the wedge or something googling. But
what the hell was I talking about new depths and
new angles? But I do think that it's fun that
Jinx and I have these very like cartoonish over sort

(28:33):
of exaggerated characters. But we've gotten to find ways within
like our work with each other, we get to find
ways to like play more of the humanity of them
underneath that, which I think has been really important in
terms of the longevity of this project is that every year,
I think we dive further into that and people have
even more of a strong emotional connection to it. And

(28:54):
so what I'm what I'm saying is I think you
have to spend more time as a weather balloon in order, Yes,
because they're just gonna keep coming. They're just gonna they
really are. It's like there's so many of them, you
could do them with different accents. Bo's love that they
look big. You know. I wanted to ask about, like

(29:17):
specifically the characters of Jinks Monsoon and Bende la Creme,
because when you both came into drag Race, I would
say that these were both highly characterized personas that you had,
you know, Jinks Monsoon with the lifted arm and the
sort of swimsuit like we got what it was immediately,
and then Bende la Creme. You know, that's sort of
like pin up vibe that you were playing. I wonder

(29:39):
how much did drag Race challenge you, How did literally
the drag Race of it all challenge you to find
new depths and new angles in those characters, as it were,
because it feels like that's something that they say, It's like, well,
we want to know you the vulnerability, and it's it
is the vulnerability. You know what I'm saying, it's a
devilish sword, because I think both positive and difficult things

(30:03):
came out of that breaking down the wall of the
character and seeing the artist inside. And after season five,
I felt like people would come to my shows expecting
to see Jinks the artist, you know, the water off
a duck's back, you know, sensitive soul, and Jinks the

(30:26):
character is an narcissistic, pessimistic, nihilistic, milfy bit righte. And
so people would come to my shows and be kind
of shocked at what my material is versus who they
thought they were going to meet that night. And so
I kind of spent a while between season five and
All Stars seven reintroducing the character to my audiences so

(30:51):
that they could tell the difference. And it took I mean, like,
that's why I'm kind of glad At seven happened when
it did, because after a decade, and especially after teaming
up with Dayla and getting our show seen by so
many more people, because when we combine our powers, our
reach is like incredible. So it's just it's like, by

(31:20):
season seven, I had a very clear idea of who
Jinks the character was, so did my audience and I
spent season seven using that as a way to reintroduce
the character. And now when people come to my show,
they know exactly what the fuck they're gonna get, and
that is such a boon to me because it means
I get to start from the plateau of people get it.

(31:44):
I don't have to introduce as much to them in
all of my shows. I get to start from a
place of mutual understanding, all right, right, which is such
an old school way to approach drag that we do
where there's really like one character at the heart of it,
and that's not every drug, which is great, right, Like
we have drag queens with a lot of different skill sets,
but it's a real challenge when it goes into a

(32:06):
reality TV format and you're supposed to like cry about
your dead mom or whatever while you're putting on makeup,
and it's she can say that her mom's dead, yeah,
just this morning. Actually it was rough, but the right.
But the thing is that we have these amazing, larger
than life characters, and so I imagine this was very

(32:29):
intentional going into season six that I had the benefit
of Jinks just being on five, and so I got
to like learn from some of her experiences, so I knew, Okay,
I have to let people know what they're going to
see when they come on stage. The backfire when I
come on stage, they're not going on stage and not interactive.

(32:50):
The backfire aspect of that is that if your character
has is cartoony and sort of over the top, but
has any sort of new then that does not know.
Nuance comes apart across on reality people. I'm sort of
all the time like, oh my god, she's so positive
and sweet, and I'm like, but when I use her
on stage, it's basically a criticis like, it's a critique

(33:13):
of that outlook total. Yes. Yes, So that was a
little weird, and then all stars I like went in
and it was just like, Okay, well, now I'm gonna
show that I am capable of playing a lot more
characters because I also do that. On sh she run
in like a sniper. Truly, she went in like a
over ops highly trained assassin. Yes, I don't know why

(33:34):
I'm making it violent. It was like like if mister
Bean got hired as an assassin and just course accidentally
shooting the right person. Yeah, but I think Ben's run
on drag Race is really remarkable because there was such
a clear threshold between the persona and drag and the

(33:55):
confessional workroom, real grounded Ben, you know, like that was
what always sort of struck me. What I was that,
I was like, God, like, she really has such control
and a toggle over these two people, and both of
them feel honest. I wouldn't say authentic. I don't really
know what that means when I say that we're but
honest versions of the same person. Does that make sense?

(34:15):
And I absolutely identify strongly with that. That is very
much that, like Daala is a very contained version of
myself that can only exist in sort of short durations, right,
which is like I think the magic of a character
like that is like that sort of outlook is not sustainable,
which is why all of my pessimism is reserved for

(34:37):
out of drag experiences. Sure, then you become like Lady
Gaga and you're like, I was this, I am this person,
like there is no separation between well, and that's kind
of where we're at, and we talk about this all
the time as ourselves and in our collaboration. What's really
really funny is that Dala and Jinx, I mean, we

(34:57):
both possess multitudes. We both us aspects that are attributed
to either of us. But it's so funny to hear
Day Let's say that her character is so contained in optimism,
and all of her pessimism exists in her real life,
whereas for me, I get all of my demons out

(35:18):
on stage, and then my day to day persona is
this bubbly, over the top optimistic, like let's turn everything
into a game. I mean, part of that's just me.
Those are my coping mechanisms so I don't fall back
into alcoholism. But also it's just who we naturally are,
you know, Like she it's so funny that like on

(35:39):
stage I'm the rand and she's the stimpy, and then
off stage she's the burden. I'm the ernie, you know,
like we kind of flip flop back and forth. And
I mean that in all contexts. Yeah, I identify with that.
I find I find that my day to day, especially
in like developing my persona for my own special in

(35:59):
my own Christmas show and the things that I do.
I've come to realize like I'm much colder on stage
as like the persona I play, and like much more
like a smile a lot less, you know what I mean.
Like sometimes even sometimes I'll look at my own social media,
like I'll black out and I'll look back at it,
and I'm like, I am projecting someone who sometimes I

(36:21):
and I guess that's like a struggle, right, like as
someone who's like public and trying to be an artist
but also like has like a podcast and gives people
a glimpse into their real life. It's like you don't
always have a hold on like what you're projecting and
who you are. Like that that's tough to manage. And
then to see it sort of edited down by someone
else in a reality show has to be and then

(36:43):
critiqued on that premise has to be such a mind fuck,
like because I know it is for me, just like
in trying to have a career without cameras following it
and then being like yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll put this
together and yeah, well I'm staying on my meds and
drinking plenty of diet. It's a beautiful song. Maria Banford,

(37:05):
You're welcome. Yeah, we have to ask you both the question,
which is what was the culture that made you say
culture was for me? Ben Let's start with you. I

(37:25):
have really been overthinking this, which is no such thing
that makes sense what the character is my amoum. I
talk about a lot of the same touchdow like over
and over again in interviews, I like talked about the
same stuff, and I was really thinking about what's my
angle here? And I think that the first time I
remember being like deeply affected by a piece of media

(37:47):
in a way that like rattled my core. With Labyrinth
it was, oh, you know, it was so like campy
and over the top and like a musical, but like right,
so much of my sense of dy I think early
on was sort of the things where some sort of
reality and some sort of cartoon or puppet element crossover,
like whom Roger Bradman was like a huge deal for

(38:09):
me Pee Wee's Playhouse, which is that kind of dynamic. Um,
but Labyrinth man just like shook me because I was
I mean, I think it was like seven or something,
and um, it was so playful and fun and like
magical but also so sexy in a way that I

(38:31):
was not prepared for and that I was so like
excited but also deeply upset by. Yeah, just sort of
understanding myself, that's that thing you're like, what is that? Well?
And I think it's maybe also the first time that
you're like, oh a piece of media can like reach

(38:52):
real deep inside you two things that you don't even
know how. I mean, I obviously I was not thinking
about that at seven, but when I like reflect on it,
the way that it can touch parts of you that
you are unaware of. Yeah, that's why I say that
the movie Beauty and the Beast is responsible for my
foot fetish. Why guest on with the toe deep? Oh yeah, yeah,

(39:18):
like exactly what you want? Was that your gateway to
David Bowie as well? Yes, yes, yes, And then I uh,
I became just absolutely obsessed. It was actually it was
my mom who brought home that VHS of Labyrinth, and
she was just sort of she put it in sort
of knowingly and watched it with me, and she was
there was some part of her that was like, I

(39:39):
think this is going to speak to you, and then
afterwards burst into tears and it was like, you know,
that was not a conversation we were having, but it
was very much in retrospect her being like okay, like
I see you, you know, but um wow yeah. No. Afterwards,
like being able to sort of more fully dive into
everything else that David Bowie has been was definitely that

(40:01):
set me off on a path for sure, David Bowie too.
That's I would also probab maybe even connect that to
you like gravitating towards drag because David Bowie was in
an essence a drag queen. I mean, he was everything.
Oh absolutely. It also launched me into the Jim Henson universe,
which is also full of drag queens, Yes, Piggy and

(40:23):
Janice and all these other you know, Frank Oz playing
all of these amazing archetypal women. Yes, so yeah, from
all angles, it combined every element of that excellent answer
because every strand really goes back to that thing for
to labyrinth for you, where it's the beam of light
that refracts into all these things that you do now,

(40:44):
which is beautiful. Yeah, and there's a million other touchstones
along the way, but that's the first time I remember
just being truly shattered by something in a good way.
And also the like bizarre glamor you know, like it's
glam but it's also fucked well and it's sexy and
it's fun, but it's also like deeply it's like getting

(41:08):
into like fears and like it and like all sorts
of you know, it's it's speaking to sort of serious
and complex emotions and yeahs, you know, and I like that.
I like when something is really silly and campy and
sparkly and draws you in and then uh kind of
one two punches you as something else. Yeah, we don't

(41:28):
have enough of that stuff now, we really do. I
think the last thing I can really imagine. And speaking
of duos that like went for it in like a
stylized way that you can see in watching it. I
was like, people that see this that are young and
don't really know themselves yet might really find themselves. And
this is like Barb and Star. Yeah, such an incredible movie.
Jins and I watched that like within twenty four hours

(41:51):
of each other and could not shut up about it.
Anyone who doesn't like that movie doesn't know movies. It's amazing.
Why are we not seeing drag queens? I don't want
to say who the villain is. Why have we not
seen more drag queens cosplaying that villain? Right? You're right, right,
you're right. Yeah, the soda scream in the beginning, I

(42:12):
knew and it was beautiful the way that I really
like spoke to sort of this amazing journey of these
women in middle age kind of finding themselves and reassessing.
And it was such an amazing way to get into that.
And that's what I love about camp in general is
that it just sort of breadcrumbs you down a road

(42:33):
and then you can do anything with it, and you
can keep it silly or you can really go somewhere.
But people they all their armor is down when they've
been dazzled by some like bright colors and some goofy jokes. God,
you're so right. It is breadcrumbs when it comes to
like delivering camp. I think we all like can recognize
it at this point in the culture, but to make

(42:55):
it it is this thing where you leave crumbs and
then once you fully have the audience in the pocket
of that, you can do literally anything and we will
be along for the ride. There can be a crab
that like comes along and speaks in Morgan Freeman's voice,
you know, like that speaking of which, and this is
something that Jinx and I sort of like always think
about in our shows is that we have like this

(43:15):
sort of heart that we want to get people to that.
We really want them to feel vulnerable, and so we
use a lot of dick jokes to get there, but
also puppets try having the drag the crab like deliver
that message. I always, I actually always use puppets to
talk about them. I did a show like a million
years ago about um it was. It was about like

(43:39):
American history, and I used a bald eagle puppet to
address slavery and genocide because that's the only you know
what I mean, it's like the only delirious system that
like the audience will like tolerate because they're like, oh,
it's a silly puppet giving this heavy, heavy message. Yes, yeah, totally.
Oh and we do that in the show as well, right,
except usually our puppets are villa. Yeah. Oh right, because

(44:01):
it was the it was the Barkart. Yeah. So in
the in the special, it's the ghost of my dead
grandmother in a glass of eggnog and she's sort of
like racist and homophobic. Um yeah, And we've used that
a lot. We had a transphobic gingerbread man on one
of our that was like furious that we were not
necessarily going to assign them mail like through bread ties

(44:23):
and like signifiers like that. Yeah, were angry about that.
I'm curious about what other touchstones there were though, because
you overthought it. I do want to know where else
your brain went, Like along the way. There's a lot
of like Elvira hue Herman characters who I really love
that they never broke. They would go on like a
late night talk show and they would not reveal the
person behind them, which is something I was sad about

(44:44):
Drag Race sort of losing, is that it's like first
to see the person behind the character, and we've lost
that thing of people who just never allow you to
know them, which makes you believe in their characters in
a way. That's why would we be able to believe
that Elvira is a person human like moving through the world.
But Cassandra Peterson has convinced us of that, like we

(45:07):
bought it right in a way that was like speaking
to like the child in us and all sorts of stuff.
And then I don't know, fast forward and when I
saw the Weekstock documentary, that was really when I was like, oh, click,
click click, all these sensibilities drag is part of this,
And that's where I really was able to say, oh,

(45:29):
all these things that I am already drawn to, or
that I already am, there's a container for that, and
it's this thing called drag. And that's how you get
to incorporate all of it. That is drag, drags the clock,
and then everything else is sort of the gear and
the hand and all that saying. I can't think of
a modern equivalent to like an Elvira, a peewee, like

(45:49):
someone who will not break on it like that though,
because we're obsessed with knowing whoeverone is. Does Pete Davidson
how I don't know about that? But I mean, I
gonna bring up age just because Matt and I were
on a Jimmy Glick kick recently and Jimmy Glick is
like it's it's so ridiculous, And there are problematic aspects
of Jimmy Glick obviously, but like there's something really pretty

(46:12):
brilliant about Martin Short, just like staying in that zone
and having Jimminy Glick be the delivery system for his
most vile, toxic, mean, rude thoughts and he would just
insult his guests. You know, you know who is maybe
our closest thing is Stephen Colbert. Sure, Yeah, totally totally
less so now but right, and Amy Sedaris has built

(46:34):
like even just her out of Jerry Blank drag, Like
by creating at Home with Amy Sedaris, She's created a
version of herself that is Amy Sedaris, but also a heightened,
you know, clown form of her. You know what's funny
is I completely agree with Dayla, And also I think

(46:57):
there's something very powerful about just us talking about ourselves
and talking about our lives. You know, Like I really
did miss the anonymity that I gave up when I
did drag Race. Like I used to be able to
be Jinks and then get out of drag and no
one knew who I was in Seattle. I mean, like

(47:20):
the more popular I got within the drag scene, the
less that was. But like I still was able to
like go places out of drag and just be a
human being and that's kind of gone from me now.
But to know that people who resonate with the stories

(47:44):
that I've been very candid with to know that that
inspires them and helps them in the same way that
drag queens did that for me. It might be like
through different forms, you know, but like people are drawing
inspiration from me the same way I drew inspiration from
Lady Bunny and Coco Peru and you know, the old

(48:05):
guard of drag, the generation that paved this path for me.
So uh, it's it's give and take. I'm okay with
it is the thing. It's like, I'm okay and I
still do what I love to do and they assign
meaning to it. I always say, listen, I'm really really
happy to pay it forward. If me getting on stage

(48:27):
and telling a bunch of satirical dick jokes makes you
feel more seen than, it's a win win total in us.
Beautiful Jinx, What about you the culture that made you
say culture was for you? Um, I'm gonna weave a
tale of many things that have all fit together, but
I think my my answer is LARPing, live, oh, role playing.

(48:51):
Oh my goodness. Now, in middle school, all of my
friends were Mormons, but I didn't know what Mormons were.
But these were Portland Mormons, so they were very liberal Mormons.
And their favorite things were the King Arthur Legends and

(49:12):
Rocky Horror Picture Show. And so we did a lot
of things. Yeah, we did a lot of We would
put on the soundtrack and act out the soundtrack. That
happened a lot. We all had nicknames based off of
characters in the King Arthur legends. I was Queen Gwenevere,
and then I was a greade below or two grades

(49:35):
below most of the friends in this group, so their
eighth grade graduation. After the last day of school, we
went to a park and larked for like three hours.
And I guess the reason why this is so important
to me is because it was this moment of realizing

(49:59):
that if you are just honest about having an interest
in something, you might find people who share that interest,
even if it's the dorkiest interest, something you would never
want to even reveal about yourself. But if you find
a way to safely reveal that, you might find people

(50:20):
who share the interest. And like I sincerely loved dressing
up in Renaissance gear and running around in this park
with my friends and pretending I was a shape shifter.
I had this Perier bottle that I had peeled the
labels off of and it was my shape shifting potion.
It led to me cracking my tooth. Oh, because they're

(50:42):
so hard, those bottles. Yeah, someone bumped into me and
it broke my tooth. And I used to lie and
say it was a skateboarding accident because I didn't want
to admit that it was from live action role play.
But you know, when I think about that, I'm like,
that just showed me that, like, there are people in
the world who want to play make believe with you.

(51:02):
And then it wasn't long after that I saw my
first drag show. It wasn't long after that that I
started doing drag and that was just like, those are
the breadcrumbs of leading to me being me. And then
I think about The Dresden Dolls and Amanda Palmer. The
Dresden Doll the first band of my youth that was
like not a band that my parents listened to when

(51:24):
I found myself, and it was like so very much.
It was the exact kind of music I had always
been waiting for. That Amanda Palmer became this big icon
to me. Amanda Palmer's gone on to do such amazing things.
She's continued to be this icon. We got to do
a duet together. She put out a book and a
Ted Talk, So if you can't read, you can listen

(51:46):
to the Ted Talk. But it's called the Art of Asking.
And that's how I started this whole rant. But the
art of asking. It's just the concept that if you
are honest with the world about what it is you
need or what it is you're looking for, then you
might find people who want to give it to you,

(52:06):
and you might not ask for anything in return. They
might just be looking for someone to give this thing to.
But you'll never know until you ask. Yeah. So I
think we've been conditioned to think that we have to
do everything on our own. And if you need help
from others, or if you need to ask for help,
or if you need to ask for assistance, or you're

(52:27):
searching for people with similar interests, then you're somehow weak
or less apt or less like fit for the world.
But a man Palmer says, Nah, there are just times
when if you ask, you can receive, and it's as
simple as that. That's wonderful. Between the Dresden Dolls and Larking,

(52:49):
I think there's this shared thing of like esthetics, where
like Listen, I never larped, but I would do this
thing I was like squarely in the eighth grade, let's say,
going to Chinese school on Sundays, and what I would
do with the kids in like the fifth grade who
were around these like all the Chinese kids, kind of

(53:12):
like we're in the same soup or whatever. And then
we all like went outside and I would lead these
like this weird high fantasy like adventure where I was
the dark Lord and these kids had to chase me
down and fight me with their spells. But the thing is,
we didn't have costumes. And so between the Dressdin Dolls
and you LARPing as Guinevere with your potion, like you

(53:34):
had costumes and props, and I feel like the Dressden
Dolls were this group who like embraced this like fusion
of cabaret and punk and so like it was steampunk
cabaret punk punk. It was also like very clear even
though they were a male and a female, and but
like I would venture that Amanda Palmer identifies as queer,

(53:57):
and they exuded it at a time when I wasn't
seeing a lot of queerness and media, I was assigning
queerness two things, right, you know, remember when we didn't
used to get to see ourselves on TV, so we
had to find ourselves. I've always found myself in the
most random of places, like magic al dispel on ducktails,

(54:20):
remember that freaking he stuck It's why little queer kids
are always choosing who they choose in video games, you
know what I mean. Yeah, I think it's a much
more mainstream instinct than people realize that they want to
disappear into something. I mean, even little kids when they're
playing like man Hunt. You know, there's this fantasy they're

(54:43):
playing about about hunting and being hunt dead that they
do in a safe way, or like with video games
or even in school. I remember my favorite things were where.
I remember when I was in eighth grade, we were
going to re enact the Boston massacre trial and I
was John Adams the Law and it was my favorite
thing because I would write these long, long speeches to

(55:05):
give in front of the jury. And I remember I
think people were afraid of how hard I was committing
to it, and I was really willing to commit to
commit to it because I think they were like, it
wasn't cool to commit to it. It seemed gay to
commit to this thing, so they didn't vote for me
at the end. And I remember I did not win
the tribe. It was really like that. It was very overdrawn,

(55:28):
and I'm telling you, my closing argument to the jury
was like ten pages and I'll never forget. My teacher,
mister Tapagna, pulled me over to the side and he said,
I want you to know that I appreciate what you've done,
and I want you to give me that because it's
one of the best things I've had written in my class.
And he saw that I tried hard and committed it
and wanted to live out the fantasy. And it's like

(55:49):
that thing where you see a kid wanting to live
out fantasy and other like their peers like stomp it
out a little bit. And there is that instinct, I think,
to stomp out creativity and stomp out like imagination, and
we see it now more than ever because of fear
and because maybe that you'll look stupid if you try
to do the same thing. But I really appreciated that

(56:09):
someone in my life encourage that. Like I said, I
do think like if we all were more in touch
with our inner children, we all would be doing more
things like that. Because it's fantasy, it's imagination, it's fun,
it doesn't have to be scary or weird. You know. Yeah,
it's interesting that it's niche because it's actually so universal.
I think it's why video games are like such a

(56:31):
big part of our culture. And we're talking a lot
about queerness and video games, and I think video game
developers are having to realize that they have a huge
queer audience because I don't think people realize it. But
like video games were a safe space for queer kids,
ye because you could play by yourself, and just like
you were saying, you choose characters. Especially nowadays, you can

(56:52):
customize this character, so who cares who you are in
your day to day life. You can be who you
want to be in video games and no one has
to know. And so that's why this kind of representation
is important. But I think we should just find ways
to make life more like video games. We should just
let people be their avatars in their day to day

(57:15):
life without judgment. I mean, alok v men, And sorry,
I know I'm on such a tangent right now, but
Aloke is always talking about the reason why people try
to squash out that creativity is because they're afraid, And
you were just saying fear, but it's like it's fear
of two things. It's fear of someone else living that

(57:36):
kind of freedom and having to reconcile that they're being
free and realizing that you're not free, and so having
to admit that you've been living under this like brainwashed
conditioning your whole life, and if you wanted to, you
could actually be free of that. But then also the
fear of like what would that feel like to let

(57:57):
all the rules go and of everything we've been taught
and just actually live authentically, Like that's terrifying for some people,
and queer people were just used to being terrified, so
we go for it, right, Yeah, Yeah, yeah, I think
that's true. It's it's very hard and scary to live
your life open to things and taking risks because you

(58:18):
get hurt, you know, like especially like when that's intrinsically
who you are and who you want to be, you know,
especially like living in a world where you are told
in a macro sense like you don't fit in here,
and so then you're like alone with yourself and you think, well,
at a certain point, I look back and I think
that actually was a gift, because I'm like, well, if
I don't belong here, let me look around for what

(58:39):
I do belong. And then it's the asking of it
all that you mentioned. It is the finding of community,
and then you find your you know, bow and yang
to you, or you're been to you or your jings
to you, and like you feel encouraged and you feel
more like yourself through community. Absolutely. I mean, I think
that as queer people, we spend a lot of childhood

(58:59):
like waiting for adulthood and then explode into an extreme
right because it's been getting pent up for all that time.
It's and I think one of the beautiful things about
the video game Aspect Right is that, like we just
had to wait until we had access to anything that
could help us sort of present ourselves the way that
we see ourselves, or that we had like a safe

(59:21):
environment where we could present ourselves in the way that
we see ourselves. And now there is this outlet for
queer kids to have some of that. You know. One
of my favorite this is actually, I'm sorry this is
a tangent, but one of my favorite things to ever
be on SNL is Wells for Boys. Oh my god,
it's I think it was a water actually, I mean,

(59:44):
I think that was a huge deal that was so explicitly,
intrinsically deeply queer. Yeah, that was just a way that
I've seen myself reflected in media that I have not
seen before. But I really, you know, I think a
lot of us that's the thing is we just like
sit around and wait to be grown up so that
we can do anything about it. And then of course

(01:00:05):
we're just going to be like totally balls to the
wall by the time we get there totally. I think
I am trying to maybe connect too many dots here,
But I think, like the thing, the thing from day Alt,
the thing from Jenks about these cultural touchdones is that
like aesthetics matter in that it is what communicates, It
is the medium of communication for people. That's I think

(01:00:26):
that's why, like I always say, like it's not shallow
to like care about the way you look, even if
it goes against a beauty standard, but it goes if
it goes along with the beauty standard. It's like it's
important because it might actually play into like a gender
expression or another kind of expression. But then I think
it's also the reason why not to bring this into
the chat. But like the drag bans are like all
of a sudden very prolific, is because drag ends up

(01:00:49):
being the most aesthetically impactful thing across the board. And
so it's the thing that like Stokes fear in certain
people who think, well, this is the most dire dangerous
thing that's going on right now, even though it does
not pose any threat to them. But it's only because
there's this aesthetic quality to drag that like says so
much without really saying anything verbally orally. Does that make sense?

(01:01:12):
It's like what we were talking about earlier about like
you get to start from a more honest place with
new people that you meet. Right, Like, my life has
improved so much now that I've started presenting as the
way that I feel inside, because people call me ma'am
rather than sir, and so I respond joyfully rather than cranky. Yeah, exactly.

(01:01:39):
So yeah, aesthetic, aesthetic presentation can be more important than
just you know, vanity or it's not all about ego now,
it is also about having a conversation without words. Well
and dragon, I think, I mean, I think it's also
scary to people in general. But right now, obviously there's

(01:02:01):
a lot happening with drag right now in our country
that's like bizarrely high profile. I still it feels surreal
to me, but it also feels so familiar, right It's
like I think a lot of people are reacting to
it in this way where it's like WHOA, who could
have seen this? And I'm like, I think most of us,
you know, And it started there like that's it was
recent history that drag was regarded in this way, and

(01:02:22):
I think it's because it's like, it is the aesthetics
about a claiming power. It's about being the most powerful
person in the room, and that's huge. And that's what
it was in like bull culture in Paris is burning.
It was being like, okay, we're not rich and straight,
but we can still claim that power in these spaces.
And now we're in all the spaces, and of course

(01:02:44):
it's terrifying to people because yeah, yeah, I don't fear
controls people. And imagine imagine being like a god fearing
person who's been taught that feels that way, and then
hearing someone like RuPaul saying I am God and drag,
you know what I mean, And suddenly there's hundred of
like I guess what ru would call it, monsters running
around being God and drag. And then that idea, even

(01:03:06):
if you are not a drag queen or have an
instinct to do drag, I remember how revolutionary it was
for me to hear that there actually were not limits.
That is when my comedy really broke open. And I
have to credit like the popularity of drag Race for
showing me someone in my twenties who was very much
doing this sort of straight drag in my comedy until

(01:03:26):
I realized there was like an empowering thing about really
taking your queerness and putting it out there. I mean,
it was this weird time in my life and I
think I'm speaking for a bow and two, which was
like drag Race becoming huge, our friends Josh Sharp and
Aaron Jackson, like performing at UCB, which is like a
very hetero institution at the time, and then being so

(01:03:48):
unapologetically their fag itself, you know what I mean, Like
like and I just like it's this idea like, oh wow,
I actually don't have limits, and I don't think I
would do anything that I do now if that message
hadn't been delivered to me. And so for queer people
to be given this powerful message and this powerful tool

(01:04:11):
and to realize, like, don't listen to the naysayers and
all these things, like, of course, that's going to be
scary for people that want controlled desperately because they're afraid. Yeah,
but now that you've mentioned it, I will say that
i've seen videos of your UCB characters. You're upright, since
I've seen what was this? M Yeah, that was one

(01:04:35):
of my favorite, the most unpredictable Batman villain of all time,
where they didn't have an identity or like they basically
were everything everywhere all at once if you were, and
that would make them actually predictable, because if you think
about these Batman villains, it's like, okay, so they're the Joker.
You know, there's going to be a card. You know,
it's probably going to be the thing opposite of what
they say. Like, we really could kill the Joker if

(01:04:56):
we wanted to. I get that gothamester run and be afraid,
but like know the Riddler. Let's just get someone who's
good at riddles on the case, get someone who's get
mamma who's good at wordle to come in here, and
we can kill the Riddler to penguin honey and I
don't know, I'll turn up the heat. Wow. Speaking of Wordle,
we are boycotting the Times now, so yeah, listen, Wordle

(01:05:18):
was if you played Wordle for more than two weeks
and I used this word pejoratively. You're a fucking nerd.
You're how we already established a love of nerddom in
this conversation. Though, Yeah, I'm choosing in this instance to
use it prejoratively and to actually, like weabinize that that word. Sure,
as a queer person, you have that option absolutely, And

(01:05:39):
I was using faggot prejoratively against Jason. I want to say,
Eric Jackson, what a great person. I've known er ages
and I have had the biggest crush on them my
entire knowing them. But I just the Times. The Times
is oh. I felt horrible because I was introducing Sam
Lansky to a group of people, and I always love

(01:06:01):
to brag about my friends, and I was like, Sam
Lansky New York Times bestseller, But who gives a fuck?
What the New York Times thing? You should say, good reads, legend,
Sam Lancy, but don't support Amazon. I think, ma, I'm

(01:06:26):
moving very sort of naturally into our so called I
don't think so Honey, because there's not a bigger I
don't think so Honey than New York Times right now.
But this is our sixty second segment where we take
something in pop culture and we sort of absolutely rage
against it because it needs to be raged against. Mine's
a little alt this week both but as a result
of my ticket buying spree when I'm high, I've realized

(01:06:47):
something about myself and I would pop off interesting. This
is Matt Rogers. I don't think so many a time
starts now. I don't think so honey, me during a
Broadway show, I'm not watching the story. I'm watching the butts.
Especially when I'm in the front row at Chicago, I
am looking at your butt. I'm sorry, if you're a
dancer in a Broadway show, I'm looking at your butt.
It's sort of like it's it's something I can't control.

(01:07:10):
And the garments that my guys are wearing, like, oh my,
I'm telling it's happening at something like it Hot. It's
happening at Chicago. It's happening over here, over there, it's
happening at End Juliet. It's happening at I'm going to
see a Dolls House, Jessica chast Stake. There. It's happening
at Bet Cinderella. It's one of the only things happening

(01:07:30):
at kidding so much, just happening at Bet Cinderella, and
I think I had the time of my life watching it.
But I'm still processing. Sure Broadway boys, get in the dms.
Reach out. At the very least I can make you laugh.
I'll take your ass. Let's have a good time, Let's
have a drink and as twirl about the room. I
don't think so. And that's one minute lovely. And speaking

(01:07:53):
of Broadway asses, I would say, jinks, that suit really
fits you nicely. The suit fits me nicely. The ass
is fake, No it is. That's my phone drag ass silly,
Well that number thirty None of my silly. Just the

(01:08:14):
most gorgeous people in the world in Broadway ensembles. I mean,
it's just I'm so happy for all of them too,
because it does feel like an exciting time on Broadway again.
Like I went to go see obviously you in Chicago
and it felt like, you know, afterwards, we were lucky
enough when you popped out, got to meet Lana Gordon
who's playing Oh My God, and even she was saying,

(01:08:37):
like the energy has been so great, I mean, like
and like to hear about the houses being filled in
the way that they have with you, with you, like
that's amazing. Not only for you and for Broadway, but
also for these incredibly talented people who don't always get
receptions like that or excited audience is like that, who
really deserve it, because this is to even get one

(01:08:57):
of these jobs and to keep one of these jobs
is such a feat and like just so kudos to
all of them, and they're gorgeous. Absolutely, I will keep
this brief, but it's a really queer time on Broadway
right now. Lots of it's true, and it's about fucking time.
But I'll say this because it was kind of astounding.

(01:09:17):
I saw Take Me Out, which you probably heard about
for Jesse Tyler's Tony winning performance in it, but also
full frontal male nudity. Now, both with Chicago and with
Take Me Out, there was a thing that drew queer
audiences in full frontal male nudity, drag queen on stage,
so there was a hook that lured audiences in. Then

(01:09:39):
once they were in Take Me Out, it was a
profoundly beautiful show. It was so good, it was confronting,
it was honest, it was magnificently performed. Chicago, like you
were saying, Lna Gordon and Charlotte dan Bois icons. They
are gay icons who have been playing these roles for
years and are fine finally getting to play these roles

(01:10:02):
in front of queer audiences who are going to respect
the work that they're doing and the level that they're
doing it at in a way that their straight audiences
might not have access to. So everything you just said, yes, yes, yes,
Broadway very queer. It always has been, but now we're
being unapologetic about it. Yeah, And I do just want
to tag onto that, like I mentioning that I saw

(01:10:23):
these shows just excellent, and there's also in some like
It Hot and and Juliette, there are explicit trans narratives
in them that like And to see that in more
than one show on Broadway right now, not even just
queer like it's really exciting. And I found myself looking
around and everyone really receiving it and watching it, and

(01:10:44):
I just think about, you know, when I was a
little kid seeing Hairspray on Broadway like that that was
such a revolutionary thing at the time, and to the
progression on that and to see it really happening in
Broadway theater, like, you know, kudos. And I've been having
a really amazing time. I'm seeing all of these shows.
All right, Bowen, yan, are you ready for your I

(01:11:04):
don't think so, honey. I'm ready. I'm ready, and I
don't know how this will be received. I feel this
way though I do. I do well. If you feel it,
you need to speak it, Okay, Bowen, this is your
I don't think so, honey. Your time starts now. I
don't think so, honey. The words macaroon, macaron, and macaroni.
Language fails us all the time. These are three things

(01:11:27):
that are completely different from each other, and yet they
share the same root word. Yes, and really it doesn't
make any sense. These are things that cannot be interchanged
for each other. Maybe a macaroon and a macaroon can
be interchanged for each other. They're both sweet, lovely, delectable desserts.
They're not the same thing. And I actually don't like
it when people refer to a French macaroon as a macaroon.
There's no coconut, there's no almond, carelessly tossing this term around.

(01:11:52):
Words matter, and yet words fail us. It is a
terrible conundrum we are in. As English speaker. I truly
mourn the loss of other languages and an era of
globalization in an era when every person on earth is
expected to know some English, when they have gorgeous mother
tongues that can more readily wield these three different foods

(01:12:14):
with different terms macaroni, macaroon, macaron different things entirely. And
that's one minute, My girl said, era of globalization. It's true,
it's true. I may you say something subversive, which is
that I think a macaron is disgusting, and I'm really
upset when somebody offers me a macaroon and get out
of here. Get out of here, because a macaron is delectable.

(01:12:36):
I feel the opposite. Ben Well, but we're Jack Spratt
and his wife. We're going to polish them all off.
I love macaroni. I love macaroni too. I love it.
I always forget when someone says macaroni that they don't
necessarily mean elbow. But I think of elbow macaroni when
I think of macaroni. But it could literally be any
tubular pasta. Let's just I didn't know that. Yeah, I'm

(01:12:58):
learning so much here. Any tubular pasta macaroni, Yes, any
tubular pasta macaroni. It's square rectangle sort of thing. So
Penney is macaroni. Penny is considered macaroni. Next time you go.
I don't think so, honey. If you go and buy
a penny at the store, you're going to see macaroni

(01:13:19):
on the box. I don't think it's very's telling meat
is macaroni. Forget it? It's square rectangle. Wow, that might
have to be a rule of culture. What that? Every
tubular pasta is Macaroni's consider? What number was that? Again? Seven?
It's rule of culture number seven. Every tubular pasta is macaroni.

(01:13:41):
Rigatoni is Macaroni is macaroni. I'm horrified by this, but
I resk It's crazy, isn't that jarring? Think? It really
freaks me out if I think too hard about it.
Macaroons are not macar macaroon, and neither of them are macaroni,
And yet they all sound so similar. And when Yankee
Doodle stuck a feather in his hat, he called it macaroni. Oh,

(01:14:04):
oh my god, I didn't you know? Then? I identify
with you being scared about the new information and fearful.
But remember that, you know. Jennifer Lewis once looked me
in the eyes on this podcast and she said, we
can be scared, but we must not be unafraid. So
take this information in and move forth. I think we
should start with a bende la creme. I don't think so, honey.

(01:14:25):
What do you say? Wow? I love it. This is
this is the moment in time. You're ready, I'm down.
Mine is also language based to this. Amazing, It's perfect.
This is bende la cremes. I don't think so, honey.
Her time starts new. I don't think so, honey. With
the de evolution of the English language through TikTok, I
cannot handle the POV situation. Yeah, that is not POV.

(01:14:45):
Of me eating a French fry. Is A fistful of
French fries is of me eating French fries. It makes
me furious. I'm I do not like this no one
colon thing. I understand that started a certain way, but
it it devolved into it. We don't need everything to
start with no one colon. We know that no one's
anything that is implicit in leaving it alone. I come

(01:15:09):
from the greatest generation of overusing like and misusing ironic
and literally. I feel good about that. I think we
should stop it there. I think it's getting too rapid
and too out of control is meaningless. I want to
hear no more chaotic. Everybody learned what POV is, and
stop putting your memes in like four different fonts. Just
write a new meme. That is what we need. And

(01:15:29):
I don't think so, honey about any of this d evolution.
And that's one minute I knew you by God, I mean,
isn't it funny bowen is them? I have always identified
as I just especially in the confessionals. I'm like, God,
I was like, I could listen to this person just
talk and time. Not not that it's that's a means

(01:15:51):
of identification, but I'm just like, oh, I love this
person truly truly. But no, no, no, no no, but this
is that was a perfect I don't think so and
it POV is. The usage is completely bastardized. It's crazy,
so upsetting, particularly by really really attractive people who honestly
should be trying harder. Yes, agree, but then that kills

(01:16:12):
it for me. I'm like, no, boner gone, it's not
gonna work, And no one colon. Yes, it is just
at this point a means to like set up a
thought that did not need the set up. No, no,
it's it's extraneous. Why we can't both completely stop using

(01:16:33):
language correctly and nothing about economy of language. If you're
going to be bad at using words, use fewer words,
thank you, oh my god. And actually that's a great note.
I used to be very global note. I used to
be very, very very hard on people misusing literally. But
I think at this point the work has sort of

(01:16:53):
like taken on an additional meaning, which is just saying
something is amphatic, agreed, it's it's also I mean, I
grew up on literally and the alanis Morisset, you know,
cultural confusion around and what that means. Yes, And I
just feel you know that to me, that's grandfather Dan.
I understand that's generational. I was listening to a podcast

(01:17:16):
that I recorded the other day and the amount that
I used like and I always overuse, but in this
one it was every other word, and I was infuriating.
When you catch yourself doing that, Yeah, I'm just saying, everybody,
give yourself a little bit of grace because guess what.

(01:17:37):
You go back and watch any of my talk show appearances,
you will be stunned at how often like gets thrown
in there. And I've just learned to accept it. It's okay.
People still understand what I'm saying. I forgive it in others,
and I am working on giving myself the same grace. Absolutely.
Janine Garofalo when she came on this podcast her I
don't think so, honey, was people saying like a lot

(01:17:57):
and we were kind of just sitting there like, oh,
so she has never listened to this and thought, oh yeah,
I'll do what I have the afternoon for you. Had
she listened to this podcast, she would never come on
because she doesn't respect us. She doesn't respect us, and
that's okay, okay. I have always felt very strongly about
grammar and punctuation and respecting language and stuff. And then

(01:18:23):
and then also there is classism in that, right, Like
it's been pointed out to me that being like a
gatekeeper and not like listening to someone because of the
way they speak is inherently classist. I do, though, think
that if you want to be a content creator using

(01:18:43):
language as a medium, you should have respect for it, right.
I mean, there's got to be some middle ground. But
I mean, I don't want to be classist, but I
also want to understand what people are saying to me.
I feel horrible Sometimes when it's like a typo will
really throw me off because I'm like, is this a typo?

(01:19:04):
Because it's a typo? Is this a new abbreviation? I
don't understand. Is this a new phrase that's being used.
Maybe I'm just maybe it's more my problem than anything else.
I don't want to be classist about this, but I
am perfectly fine with being agist. Young people are bad
at a lot of things, and that I am okay
with saying out loud, yeah, this is the perfect kind

(01:19:27):
of ageism. Are you ready? Old people are bad. Young
people are also bad at The perfect age is the
age that I am? Yes, that's it. Yes, it's equal opportunity.
It was a crime when my father felt that way,
But now that I am my father's age. Isn't that
funny though? When you start to become that person that's
like that literally is like these kids, you know what

(01:19:48):
I mean? Like I think it started with like I
don't know, I guess like when I didn't and I'm
just gonna bravely say this. When I really didn't get
the Billie Eilish thing at first, I was like, h
I was like wait what, Like it's because I really
didn't get it and so so famous like like ubiquitous,
like parents know who she is. And there I was

(01:20:10):
being like, h like a cranky about it, and now
it is right, But I was thanky about TikTok to
it first. Now I think it's fun and goofy and
I laugh my little ass off when I'm on it.
But like the ways in which like it felt like
it accelerated past you, you know what I mean, Like
that's what it is. And but but it's it's funny
to become like yeah, yeah, get off my lung. I'm

(01:20:33):
having this thing where I like, I have learned a
lot of things from young people. I have learned a
lot of new ways of thought from young people. Of course,
I've learned a lot from my elders. I guess my
only frustration with age groups right now is their inability
for patients with one another. It's like being a queer
person in my thirties. I am finding a lot of

(01:20:55):
frustration in trying to get the older generation and the
younger generation to have a conversation with you. I know,
like they are each digging their heels in the sand
in opposite directions and not across the board. You know,
I know plenty of older people who are very open minded.
I know plenty of young people are extremely mature. But

(01:21:17):
I'm talking about the issue we're having in the queer
community right now and have been having for a while,
is old people don't want to learn new stuff because
they think I built this community. How dare you tell
me there's new terms I don't know? And young people
are like, but you built the community for me. So
I'm telling you this is what I want. Why aren't
you respecting that? And then I'm sitting here in my

(01:21:40):
thirties wanting to have sex with everyone. Sam, can't we
all get along? And they're so tired from the fighting
and I can't get it up. They can't get it up.
And you just bought a WEDGEE what. I can't be
a slat in this modern age. If people can't get along,
you'll find a way to manage um. All right, So

(01:22:05):
Jinks Moon Soon it's time for I don't think so, honey.
Are you're ready? And remember never forget Jinksman Soon judged
a lost culture recess. I don't think so, honey. Competition
at Clusterfest in San Francisco alongside Alaska Thunderfuck, and it
was one of the great episodes. If you want to
go back and listen to that episode it was. It
was won by Rachel Pegram and it iconically features Joel

(01:22:27):
Kim boosters I don't think so honey after sex when
you fart and a little bit of cum comes out,
which he did say in front of my entire immediate
family in the great city of San Francisco, and I
believe it tickled our panelists. So mun come came out.
This is your I don't think so honey. Your time

(01:22:49):
starts now. I don't think so honey about trying to
blame the safety of children on drag queens when guns
killed children and Dreka drag queens don't kill children. But
I think that's preaching to the choir. So I'm gonna
say I don't think so honey to Jinks right now.
You don't need to talk about that because everyone already knows.
What I want to talk about is, I don't think

(01:23:10):
so honey. If you're gonna walk down the sidewalk, especially
in Times Square, you gotta keep up pace moving. You
don't get just slow down. You don't get to turn
your head around and look this way. While you're walking
that way, you don't get to walk forward to a
breast at a snail space. Some of us are on
our way to work. Some of us only have an

(01:23:31):
hour long dinner break, and we've gotta go get new nails.
If we've got to get new lashes, a new highlighter,
and you are slowing us down in every minute fucking counts.
So if you are gonna walk in New York City,
if you're gonna walk in Time Square, you're gonna walk
in a brisk pace. That's just how it goes. If
you can't handle it, get out of house, kitchen and
god damn it. You know, it's so funny, like even

(01:23:53):
just spending some time in New York, like you become
this person who really is Like there's rules of the road,
and in addition, there's rules about escalator etiquette. If you
are standing on the left side, you have flopped. You
are doing the wrong thing. The right side is for standing.
The left side of the escalator is a lane for

(01:24:13):
people that want to walk up the escalator. If you
don't know this by now, you will never never never
know me, my fucking you. I feel like there is
a real heterosexual entitlement to couples holding hands on the sidewalks.
You do not see queer couples standing next to each other,

(01:24:33):
no matter how many people are bustling down the street,
just holding hands, as if it is their god given
right to block that much of the side. Straight people
are convinced that everyone should celebrate their relationships at all times.
Straight you are convinced that we are all so lucky
to witness their public displays of affection. And it's just

(01:24:57):
not so straight people. I don't give it shit. Single file.
My partner and I walk single file, and that is
part of why I love him. Thank you. Michael's a
block ahead of me. That's partnership too. It comes, It
comes in all forms. You need someone to blaze the trail.

(01:25:19):
I've been speaking of blazing the trail. There's two legends,
legendary legends in the zoom. Um. This was so so
much fun to have you both. We can't even tell
you how much you've both just inspired us, made us laugh,
made us scream, point at television screens and go oh

(01:25:39):
my god, and what the fuck? And yes, and stages
across the damn country. And I'm gonna imagine the world
are also grateful and thankful. You're both amazing well be
much two way straight. The feeling is abundantly mutual, outrageously
so I can only hope to run it into you

(01:26:02):
guys at airports, all three of you. Yeah, I would
love to run into you. I'd be like, where are
you going? Can we coordinate like a Delta Lounge moment
at some point? World Delta? Right, no Delta. I was
just in the Delta Lounge last night and they were
doing a JFK. Well, it was packed, and so when
they were doing a lovely moment of there's not just
one pasta buffet, but two there, I said, thank you,

(01:26:25):
thank you. I was just in JFK the other day
and they did the same thing. They set up that
little cart right that we're talking about day, a noodle
cart like in the corner, and the Nathan's hot Dog
cart somewhere too. Wow, that's what you need everywhere across
the country. And a Nathan's hot Dog cart, not just
in New York, but the what the Delta Lounge at
lag already, I gotta say, top notchy. Have you been

(01:26:48):
to the new one in Los Angeles? I mean it's
not that new No, it's really, it's really. Oh it's great. No,
it's great, very good, well done, Delta. I ate barbecued
ribs on a deck. Yeah really, there's that deck where
you can walk, you can watch play. It's beautiful. Listen.
I'm uncloud nine right now because I haven't had to
fly in like six weeks. And every airport, every airport

(01:27:11):
is the most gender phobic place. Oh my god, next
time I do this, I'm gonna do it. I don't
think so honey about the gender phobia at the t
s a security check? Oh oh my gosh. Well, every
all the readers have to go, you know, see Jinks
on Broadway in Chicago. And in that spirit, bowen. We
end every episode of this podcast Lost Culture, a critically

(01:27:34):
acclaimed podcast which has been noted for the chemistry between
a toast and it's insight into the entertainment industry with
a song whatever happened to please may I? And yes,
thank you? And how charming? No? There, master went last class? Last?

(01:28:06):
Oh no, no, just that. Waken and listen. If you
want more of that, go to the theater. Bye bye,

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Bowen Yang

Matt Rogers

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