“Undeniably Essential” (w/ Ari Shapiro)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Look man, oh I see you? Why why? And look
over there? How is that culture? Yes? Goodness dust cultures
is calling and really good moods because you know what,
it's the weather. It's the weather on both coasts at
the moment. We're recording this on Sunday, the twenty sixth

(00:21):
of March. Yeah, and it's nice in New York, it's
nice in La. I don't know what it's like in
our guests city. Right now, we'll have him China. How
are things in Glouckama? Glauckama? Do you understand what that
is a reference to? Oh no, I don't. I hate
it when this happens. It's from the Broadway musical Finnian's Rainbow,
and there's a song called how are things in Glaucama? Now?

(00:42):
Why would you say that? Well, just because it's sort
of now, why would you say that? Uh not? Now,
why would you say that? I don't know. I was
having fun. I'm sorry, I said were. I said we
were in good moods and sort of pattering the ball
back and forth, you know, like you do with balls.
And I sort of just sent to goat something and
you sort of shamed me. Queen. No, Queen, I didn't

(01:03):
mean to you know. I was thinking of you this morning.
I woke up. I want were I miss my friend
Matt Roger. You said that to yourself. I said that
out loud to no one. Oh. You sort of sent
me a photo last nighte of you and the girls
at iconic New York party event course Meat Disco, and
I was a little bit jealous, but not super jealous

(01:25):
because I am avoiding those spaces because I have a
new rule right now, which is no new gay men.
I don't trust them. I don't want to talk to them.
If you have to introduce yourself to me, keep it moving.
But I'm happy that you wanted to go to that event.
I needed to because I was so hermetic in London
for two weeks. I was like losing my mind. I
was like, I gotta go out totally. I have to

(01:47):
like release this and guess what it worked? Did you twirl?
We twirled and guess what we did. We went to
like the side room where it was like the energy
was not quite dark room, but it was like much hornier,
but it was it was the Hens. It was me, Josh,
Aaron Patrick Rogers, Matt Whittaker. We all went to this
back room and we just screamed at and it clucked

(02:09):
in a full conversation, and then the bit was dark
room more like red table talk that we were chatting,
we were healing, and that doesn't happen. And who says
that the dark room can't become the red table? And
that's a royal culture number forty eight? Who says the
dark room can't become the red table? Sometimes all the

(02:30):
girls in the dark room, they need the red table
the most, Like we need to really come to the
red table sometimes when we're in the dark room. Absolutely,
and horse me disco more like chicken feed dance off
period period. Oh my god, Wow, I'm so happy. The
energy is so good. Maybe it's the weather. Maybe you
know what we just said before we got on here,

(02:51):
Chatty Nicholas was right, let's go to the beach. Did
Jenny Nicolas say let's go to the beach? No, but
she did say that things were turning around and we
need to get channing on the pod. I feel one
thousand percent. Oh, I was just meditating to her like
ten minutes ago, okay, that this is going to be
a huge moment for the pod going for when we
do have Channing as a guest. But I will say

(03:13):
so there was that iconic week a couple weeks ago
where she said, guys, this is not the week. Everyone
stop what you're doing. Stop. And it really was a
truly awful week. And then the next week I was
still feeling in the duldrums, really really bad. Yet Channing
came on and she was like, I know, but you
have to use today because I believe it was the equinox.

(03:33):
And she was like, you have to use today to
put projects in motion and set your intention and put
energy into things that you want to like see through.
And I did that, and things are happening. Things are happening.
And our guests in his book The Best Strangers in
the World says he doesn't believe in any of this bullshit,
which I was him once. So was I on the

(03:55):
record on this podcast. I was like, I don't understand
this stuff. I've read too many Carl Seagan books to
buy into this same listen. Channy is someone if any
readers Katie's publicists out there are on that level, Channy
is someone who like puts it in very understandable, approachable terms.
It's not even two I would say, like misstick. It's

(04:18):
just very like straightforward and it's usually just about like
reflecting and writing down your intentions, like pretty like full
stop healthy things. Yes, you described it to me as
she's a scientist. And when you said to me she's
a scientist, I said, well, I'm on board. There you go.
I would challenge anyone, including our guests, to sort of
grapple with this statement. Okay, I'm just gonna say this

(04:39):
right now, and just know this changed everything for me.
Our bodies are over seventy five percent water. How can
you expect that we would not be affected by the
moons the tides? Oh my god, did she say that? No,
she didn't say that, but someone did who I don't remember,
but whoever they were change my life because I went

(05:01):
from being'm like I don't believe in that too someone
saying that to me, and then I was like, not
only do I believe in it, but I'm making it
a large part of my personality going forward. And you
as a water sign that's on period, as a waterside
that's actually on aquatic period, aquatic period. We mentioned our
guests in passing, Yes we did, And I'm gonna do
RuPaul right now and my new thing is I'm saying

(05:23):
how I meet people like RuPaul would say it. I
met our guest in Mexico City in two twenty one.
It was New Year's I was with my sister Bowen Yang,
and we connected and shopped together the next day after
a night o'le on the talent at the store, boyfriend's
shirt and I had active COVID nineteen. And I'm telling

(05:47):
you I had active COVID nineteen. I did not know
about it. And we shopped in a small store together
and I immediately texted our guests. I said, do you
have the coronavirus nineteen? And he said no. So not
only is this person an author, a host of all
things considered the legendary MPR host, I mean just like
man myth legend performer. I mean, have you heard of

(06:08):
Pink Martini. I mean like it's just like there's there's
so much underneath the gorgeous visage of this man. And
also no, he is very much Bella Ramsey and the
last of us, and that he needs his brain removed
and needs to be studied because he is COVID immune. Yes,
it will cure humanity if they study his brain. This

(06:30):
man is the vaccine. This man is the vaccine. Can
I just say, you know who listens to all things considered?
Every day in the car? My mother many. I was
gonna say, your mother. I was gonna say this because
I'm sure our guest gets like, oh, my parents love you,
and like, certainly I put on NPR doing the dishes
in the bathroom, doing the routine. This man is in

(06:53):
my ear. But for my mother to like choose to
listen to an English language program, wow, huge deal, huge deal.
You cannot get her to watch anything or listen to
anything that is not in Mandarin Chinese like, except when
it is undeniably essential. And that is a big deal.

(07:13):
Two words, undeniably dundant. It's a front runner for title
of app undeniably essential. The new book is the best
Strangers in the World. It is quite a read. Quite
read a bowl. I read this. I was like, I'm
gonna eat like five days three that I'm a celeb reader.
I read this in three Yeah. Absolutely, we loved it.
Beautiful stories from a beautiful life well lived. I've also

(07:36):
been sent an iconic three copies of it from PR,
and I want to say thank you because I absolutely
love having a gift to give because I can't think
of a better gift to give then the book by
our guest. And this is a moment in time. I
know readers publishist katies who identify as hashtag actually smart
are absolutely over the moon today to welcome into our

(07:59):
ears our guests. All right, oh my god, you guys,
you have given me so much over the year's entertainment, fashion, advice, fashion.
Last the only thing you have not given me is
COVID nineteen truly, and let me tell you, I was
a just way of COVID, Like it was like pee

(08:20):
peak contagion. If only you had spit in my drink.
I know, I thought about it. That was a fun
night and that was my last night there. We all
went out. That was very fun. That was the night
that I'm in R two. Yeah, on that rooftop bar.
And you know what was so meaningful to me was
seeing over the course of the year that followed all

(08:41):
of the flowers that bloomed for both of you from
Fire Island too. I love that for you to wick it.
I mean, it's been so glorious. This in a way
feels like a full circle moment where we're able to
reconvene and appreciate the amazing harvest you have both read
that is too nice, that it's so nice. I don't

(09:03):
know what to say. But this, this man is here's
the thing. He's a host in all ways. Like here,
he is making us, fluffing us on our own podcast, obviously,
and iconic coast in his own right. And I'll say,
I've had dinner at the man's home in Washington, d C.
The district of Columbia. As many people say, this man
can cook. He can cook. It's unbelievable. Secret ingredient is love.
I just pour a lot of love into it. There

(09:27):
is a culture out there of from my garden. There
is a from my garden culture there people who get
to say the words from my garden, my garden, blessed bunch.
I know that I'm a cliche, but yeah, no, I garden.
I grow vegetables, and I'm gonna just come clean about this.
I have a garden coach. I have this amazing urban

(09:51):
farmer who every two weeks comes over and tells me
how not to kill all the organic vegetables I'm growing.
And I'm not ashamed to admit that they are from
this incredible, small, local queer women owned company called Love
and Carrots. And it's the best decision that I made.
And them you have a trainer, that's I have. I

(10:13):
have an organic vegetable trainer. I'm not ashamed to admit it.
I have professional help. Now that's perfect. At this point,
I need a task rabbit for everything. Not that I
actually hire them, but it's someone to tell me. But
it's like, at a certain point, I'm just like helpless, literally,
and like all I can do is get help. You
cannot be expected to be good at literally everything. You

(10:35):
cannot be expected to be an expert at everything. And
if you have an opportunity to bring in somebody to
share their gifts and talents with you and economically support
them at the same time, it's a win win win.
There you go. That's my feeling about the thing. This
is pro test rabbit culture. And I've always been very
pro test rabbit because this is pro gig economy. This
is pro gig economy. It's called just pro gig economy. Yes,

(10:58):
we support it, we sup. I just say, if Bowen,
if you want to figure out how to do all
these things yourself, just have the task rabbit come over
and then watch intently. Right, Yeah, it's the whole Give
a person a fish, Teach a person a persing. Thank
you Jesus, teach a person a fish. Watch that motherfucker fish. Yeah,
film the person fishing. Kill the person fishing. You said kill.

(11:24):
Where I'm at? Took a turn? How is this book tour?
How are you doing? Yeah? It is so incredible. I
keep waiting for the experience of signing books to become
just a repetitive hand cramp activity, but every time I'm
doing it, I feel just in sort of shock that
these words that I wrote in private on my laptop,
wondering if anybody would ever want to read them or

(11:45):
have the opportunity to read them, are now going out
into the world and being consumed by people. And as
I meet people, like, it's just, you know, radio is
this very strange medium where you might reach an enormous audience,
as you know with your podcast, but you don't often
have the opportunity to engage with them because they're listening

(12:06):
in their car or their kitchen or wherever, and you
may never meet them. And now I'm like actually going
from city to city and meeting people who are telling
me that they listen to what I have to say
and they're reading the words that I wrote, and it's
this really meaningful experience. So it's a like ambitious eleven
city tour with a crazy itinerary. But I'm so thrilled

(12:27):
to be doing it. Like originally I was supposed to
be New York, Philly, Boston, DC, which makes sense, and
then Dallas was like, oh, we want you to come visit,
and I had one extra day, so I went Philly, Dallas,
Boston and met some amazing people in Dallas and went
two stepping at his country western gay bar called the
Roundup Saloon. Like I'm having a great time. I'm really

(12:48):
just loving this experience. Oh that's the best travel show.
Travel show for Art Shapiro. I'm down. I mean, sign
me up. You know what it's like to be on
the road. You go out with Alan all the time. Yes,
so Alan coming, And I made this show with your
friend and mine and words. And as soon as I
finished this book tour, we are all convening at the

(13:09):
Cafe Carlisle in New York for a two week run.
There we go, Oh amazing, It's the most fun thing
I've ever done to just like bounce around the country
with Alan and Henry and you know, like we do
this show where we just make ourselves laugh and hopefully
make the audience laugh too, and we sing songs together
and we it's never quite the same at any two nights.

(13:30):
And Alan, I mean you've both met him, you know,
magic man like mentor friend, older brother figure, just the kindest,
most generous, selfless, joyful person I've ever met. Yeah, I
love the chapter that I said, what would you call gosh?
I never know what to call them chapter and story

(13:50):
essay either, Yeah, whatever, lovely chunk chunk the chunk where
Because this is the dream, right when you're performing with
someone else on stage, is that they put you at
ease totally. You described like people asking you like, oh,
it must be really intimidating to the performance someone of
Alan's stature or whatever, and for you to say no,

(14:11):
it's the opposite is huge. Well, because it's like if
I jump, I know he'll catch me if our show
is going off the tracks. He is so talented and
experienced and gifted, he knows how to get it back
on the tracks. So I just have to like get
up there and have a good time with him. And
in the moments when we do forget what we're supposed

(14:32):
to do, it's brilliant, it's fun. It's a moment that
the audience experiences that will never be quite that way again.
I'm sure you've both had this experience where you're doing
a scene or a show or something with somebody who
has so much more experienced, talent and expertise than you
that you just feel like, oh, they've got this. I
can relax and I know that they can steer me

(14:55):
where I need to go. But then you still get
better in the process of just like totally yeah, yeah,
you level up. Yep. It's that thing of when you
feel comfortable enough and I'm ad nauseam about this on
this podcast, I feel, but I do feel it's the
best advice ever for a performer, which is when you
feel comfortable enough to start really having fun, that's when
the audience feels like they're having fun, like truly. I mean,

(15:17):
I always credit it. It's an Amy Pohler's book, Yes please.
She said. The hack is if you're having fun, they're
having fun. And so even in a very intimidating atmosphere
where you know you're performing at say the Hollywood Bowl
as you have, or alongside Alan Cumming, where there is
probably not for nothing but a ticket buyer who expects
a certain degree of excellence. And I would imagine also

(15:38):
someone that's coming that's like an NPR ticket buyer is
not necessarily not going to be thinking about the value
of their dollar. Oh but you know the great thing
about that scenario is they come in with such low
expectations for me that it's very easy for you. Like
if I can carry a tune, they're like, oh, okay,
you can carry a tune. Like allen coming one a Tony.
People come in being like I expect a Tony Award
went actually two Tony's to Tony Award winning performance. And

(16:02):
then there's that other guy who's a journalist. And so
then when I can like harmonize with Alan, people are
like yeah, they're freaking yeah, it's amazing. And of course
Henry Koperski, the third we call him the vegan meat
in our sandwich. Um, we couldn't do it without him.
He's just such a perfect foil. He's such a perfect

(16:22):
sort of like you know, straight man in the corner,
and we sort of toy with him throughout the show.
I mean, listen, you're talking to someone who knows quite
a bit about toying with toy with Henry's meat. Yeah,
he alright, vegan meat. He really is. He's just he
is a perfect foil. I mean, like it's just me
up there talking and I'll reference him and he is

(16:44):
like the other half of my act on stage, but
he is in musically he's so able to get on
the page right right there. I mean, he's truly a
super So. The other day, as you know, Matt I
said to Henry, look, I want to do a version
of Celo Green's song fuck You, but I want to
do it like in an earnest Josh Groban style with

(17:06):
an a tomniment that's sort of like early Passaic and
Paul and He's like got you and he did it,
and it's like okay, here we go, and can we
just say it is like an actual skill and talent
to be like played off of in that sense right
where it's like you're an accompanist or you're you're at
the keys, you're on display, like you're on stage just

(17:26):
as much as someone like as like either of you
and you kind of have to like do something technical,
which is to play the music, but also like roll
with like the vibe of the of the show and
like smile and like play along with like everything that's happening.
It is a true talent that I think is undersung. Yeah. Absolutely.
And when you look at the people who Henry has

(17:48):
worked with, from those of us present here to like
credit titleman, Yeah yeah, Larry Owens, Allen Cumming, like the
list of people who he has made better than we
actually are is long. I will say my favorite person
he's ever played for when I released my special with
Henry and I made together and I posted a separate

(18:09):
like grid post like that was just all for him.
The last picture I posted in like the Carousel was
him and Vanessa Williams, because I'll just never forget when
he got to play for Vanessa Williams and I thought
that was so amazing And that was like early on
what like before he was like, you know, literally pals
with you and Alan Cumming and like it wasn't a
surprise to see him in like whatever country, Like I

(18:31):
never know where in the world he is anymore. It's
one of the proudest times I ever. I mean, it's
it's the proudest I've ever been when I hear what
he's doing, and just because I knew him, truly when
like my image of Henry is like him covered in sweat,
like carrying a keyboard upstairs, you know what I mean,
like going from thing to thing, like truly being like,

(18:51):
you know, obviously deeply appreciated by the comedy community, but
we were not able to appreciate him financial that we
should have been. And now I take great pleasure in
being able to give him these opportunities and like treat
him the way that he deserves to be treated because
we finally can. But I just remember, like back in
the day, the Vanessa Williams thing. I was like, yeah,

(19:12):
she's like a legit superstar. You got to play with
her and the readers publicist Katie's No, Henry as like
a character on this podcast, like recurring guest star, even
though he's never actually made it appear. No, yes, he has.
Oh my went early early days, ye early days. Yeah,

(19:33):
he got his own episode. I came to it late.
I have to go back into the archives, you do.
That would be a really interesting listen because I think
we were dating at the time, and I also think, oh,
that was like right after Trump was elected though, and
I remember he had gotten to meet Michelle Obama. Do
you know this has hey? Oh wait, oh my gosh.
My publicist Joseph Papa showed me this. I did not,

(19:54):
and I had to just like last week, remember that, Henry,
How did I not know that this was you? Of
course I've seen this viral video with Jimmy Fallon, is
what you're talking about, right, yeah, oh yes, yes, oh
of course, Oh my god. That was that was huge.
That was so special. It was such a horrible time
because he had Trump had just been elected, and everyone
was truly it was horrible. Henry and I were living together,

(20:17):
I believe, still in South Slope, and he was gonna
go do this bit on the Tonight Show where you
had to tell a picture of Michelle Obama like what
she meant to you. I feel like now, knowing what
we know, like you know Michelle Obama. For some reason,
he didn't, and she came out and gave him a
hug and thanked him, and it was just you know,

(20:37):
there's not a more beautiful from the inside out person
than him, And to see him get that moment and
receive that moment and like you know, he really felt
like all of us in a way, like and I
was just overflowing. And then we talked about that on
the episode. That was a very emotional time. But yeah,
talk about just like a superstar inside and out. That's Henry,

(21:00):
I mean. And you can't if you're if you're someone
that wants to book him for December, you can't have him.
He's mine. That's Christmas for the rest of my life.
What is it? First option? No, first position? Sorry, first
He's in first position with me for all of Christmas.
That's right. Speaking of the Obamas, Yes, it's a weird

(21:27):
thing that I've clung onto from the book Ari is
that you describe being an Air Force one And I
don't know why this is sticking with me, but you're
like describing eating I think spaghetti and meat balls, and
I think you wrote the line the food on Air
Force one tends to lean heavy. Yes, talk about that?
What is that about? Well, even after Michelle Obama did

(21:50):
her whole Let's Move Eat Healthy, Improving school lunches things, Oh,
I loved Let's move well in the press corps in
the back of Air Force One, which still for lunch
should be sort of like a slab of meat loaf
and mashed potatoes. Why is this happening when the first
lady is encouraging consumption of fresh, healthy meals. And we

(22:11):
speculated that it was because they wanted to keep us
sedated and leak. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You're not going to
ask the president tough questions if you're in a food coma,
and so our theory never proven was that they were
trying to keep us down by overfeeding us heavy meals
on Air Force. Interesting. I think that that makes a

(22:33):
lot of sense. It's just a theory. We need an
investigate reporter to get on that. I mean, you were
too tired to investigate it. I mean, look, this was
the Obama administration, so things may have changed. For all
I know, there's now an Air Force one salad bar,
but at the time there was a real dearth of vege.
That's so funny. Can I ask about Obama in person?
So you describe him sort of coming up and like,

(22:55):
you know, asking how's lunch, and like being very present
and you being in his a minute media vicinity many times?
Is it giving star quality? Yeah, in the sense, so
like there's sort of paparazzi star quality and then there's
I'm so comfortable in my own skin that I don't
need to tell you that I'm a star star body.

(23:17):
And he always he really gives off kind of bro vibes,
basketball player vibes, like he always just seemed super chill,
super laid back, very relaxidentt And actually, so my husband
worked in the Obama White House. We overlapped for like
one year, which was an interesting momentum. He was a

(23:38):
White House lawyer, and so he kind of had a
different perspective on the President from me, but he describes
him the same way as just sort of like kind
of broy chill. Yeah, that first time I met him,
I remember, so I'm like sitting in my chair in
Air Force one and he's standing literally right next to
the arm rest taking questions, and I remember looking up

(24:01):
at him and I saw razor bumps on his neck. Yeah,
you talk about this in the book. It was like
it was my first time on Air Force one and
I had never been quite that close to the president,
and I just remember thinking like, oh, this is just
a normal dude, Like he's a guy who shaves in
the morning and gets razor bumps like anyone else. And

(24:22):
he had been such a larger than life figure any president,
you know, like the symbol, the hail to the chief,
the like trappings of the office, especially him totally, and
in that moment I was just like, Oh, he's just
a guy like any of us. It humanized him for me.
The razor bumps were the thing I latched onto. I

(24:42):
affected too, did Isn't that a great word? That word
cafexis yeah, which is even cooler because once you throw
the X in there, it's like any word is better
with an X in it. It's that's that's a rule
of culture. That's a real culture. Blood number is that boone,
that's a real culture number? Twenty six? Any word I

(25:06):
was just trying to reference a word that had X
zenax a great word. It's the umammy of letters. It
just makes every word. Is that another lilla culture? X
is the um of letters? Yes it is. It's culture
number fifteen letters. It hits you in the back of
the tongue. Yes. I never understood umammy until someone was like, well,

(25:28):
what's umami? Is ketchup? And I was like, Okay, I understand.
The ketchup has all everything. Ketchup is umami. Se sour,
a little bitter. You need a little bitter just to
round out yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. Oh my gosh,
you really need all tastes. And that's culture number eighteen.
You really need. And I would say that about culture too,

(25:52):
And you know, that's a great segue, because I think
you need all different kinds of people in this world
to blend together to make the culture. And you are
a person in culture. You're a culture former, You're a
culture reactor. You are the perfect person to ask this question,
which is the center question of last porturies does or
a Shapiro What was the culture that made you say

(26:13):
culture was for you? Okay, I've thought a lot about
this and I realized the true authentic answer is one
that is not necessarily mainstream or cool, but it's real,
and so I'm gonna give it to you. That's perfect.
When I was a kid, my parents had a VHS
tape dubbed from the television of the PBS performances of

(26:36):
Into the Woods and Sunday in the Park with George
original cast Wow Bernadette and both Yes Bernadette in both
Manny Patinkin and sending the part of George chipsign In
the Woods, Joanna Gleeson, Yeah, Joanna Gleeson, and like, I
watched those VHS tapes to the point that now thirty
years later, I can still recite literally every lyric from
every one of those shows by heart. And my parents

(27:00):
and said, oh, you know, we're actually related to Mandy Pattenkon,
And I was like, wait what, and they were like, yes,
our cousin Phyllis is married to his cousin Bert, not
my first cousin, not his first cousin. This is like
not actually related, but I as this, like young teenager,
was so excited about it. I wrote a fan letter
to Mandy Potenkon. Were related, My cousin is married to

(27:22):
your cousin, and I loved your performance so much and
I watched it. He sent back an autographed headshot, which
I pinned to my wall and had in my childhood
bedroom all through high school. Like other people had guns n'
roses posters or Christie Brinkley photos, I had an autographed
headshot of Mandy Pattenkin, who I'm sure it looked gorgeous.

(27:45):
Of course, it was like the Princess Bride years. Okay,
but a star. There is a coda to this story
is such a star. Yeah. Fast forward to my adult
life as a host of All Things considered. Yes, and
I'm interviewing Man Tinkin about his album Wow. And before
we start the interview, I say, Mandy, I have a

(28:06):
funny story to tell you. And I tell him this
whole thing and he says, wait, who's your cousin? And
I say, well, my cousin Phyllis was married to your
cousin Bert. And he says, oh my god, you were related.
Bert is my favorite cousin. He was the greatest. I
wait until I tell Catherine, Mandy's wife that we are
related to Ari Shapiro of NPO. You have to come

(28:28):
to my life show. I'm doing it in DC. When
we came to his live show, my parents happened to
be visiting DC. We went backstage, he greeted them like family.
I'm getting emotional just telling you about this. It's yeah.
So that's that's my story. That's like those VHS tapes
of the original Broadway performance of Sunday in the Park

(28:49):
with George and Into the Woods set me on a
journey of culture that continues to this day. Incredible actually
perfectly for you because it is because it's a thinking
person's musical theater to and I would describe you as
a thinking person, thank you. I would describe you as
a thinking person too, Matt Rogers, Well, that's huge. Not

(29:10):
everyone was. I'm a feeling person, but that's perfect for you,
like the Sandheim of it all, And then you know
musical theater inclinations like that's perfect. And when I think
back to those shows as a kid, I saw Into
the Woods as very much about fairy tales, which as
a kid made sense. And when I saw the Broadway revival,

(29:32):
you know, it was very loyal to the original text.
It didn't revolutionize it. But now as an adult, I realize, oh,
it's a show about parents and children that uses fairy
tales as the vehicle. And I think that as kids,
like we as absorbed what we're able to absorb. We
take in what makes sense to us. And great works
of art can evolve over time in our minds and

(29:52):
our understanding and operate on so many different levels. You know.
It's the genius of Sondheim, the genius of great art,
the genius of great art. I thought the same thing
when I saw Into the Woods on Broadway too, where
I was like, Oh, my reading of this show in
high school was like completely different than like what it
is now as an adult. I'm like, this is insane,

(30:13):
Like what a gorgeous sort of kinetic work it is. Yeah,
it's amazing. And I thought the revival was outstanding. And
I will say I just saw the revival of Sweeney Todd. Yeah, well,
so I saw it in previews and so I'm actually
seeing it. I'm actually seeing it two more times. I'm

(30:33):
seeing it this Friday and next Friday. So many times
you got copies of my book in the mail exactly, Well,
I'm going to read on the subway. I'm going to
read each time. Yeah, but that's my favorite musical. So
it's it's Sweeney into the Woods or up There from Yes,
I love Sweeney Todd. I feel like you could write
a whole other musical with just the backstory that is
delivered in a single song in the beginning of Act one.

(30:55):
Oh you know what I mean, Like, there is so
much information delivered in that first song. Yup, It's like
you can make a whole other musical about anyway before
he was talking about yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I
mean there's so much there. Yeah, I mean it's it's
before the action even like begins, you know, absolutely, Yeah,
it's so hard sometimes when you really marry a certain

(31:17):
version of something in your head. Like I wonder if
when you're seeing the revival of Into the Woods, it's
like you find yourself like sort of trudging along a
little bit mentally watching it because you're so in love
with a certain version that you're able to quote and
I would imagine like sing along too in ways like
because once you get really marinated and like Bernadette's Witch,

(31:39):
Oh yeah, it might be hard to hear another witch.
But you know what I mean. I expected to feel
that way about the revival of Once on This Island,
which was another show that that revival reinvented the show
in a way that was so exciting. Show you will
always be famous, incredible, incredible moment by moment, just surprising, delightful. Yeah, loved, loved, loved. Yeah,

(32:05):
there's something about Sunday in the Park, that original production
where the dress is still like insane that they made
that happen like people who haven't seen it, Like Burnette
like steps out of a dress that like mechanically animatronically
like opens up and I'm still like, how did they
do that? That would be hard to do today. I
feel even that and the Witch's transformation, both of them.

(32:28):
I'm like, Bernadette has these two moments that are stage magic. Yes, no,
Bernadette is such a superstar. I mean like a duh,
But like, Bernadette is one of the best of all time.
And I wonder how she got like a Kennedy Center honors. Oh,
she's overdue, she needs that. I was once at a
gym in South Beach, Miami and she was there working

(32:48):
out with a trainer, and I actually like suddenly followed
her around. Yeah, you have to have to you have
How could you not? How could you verify it? Was
she doing there? I can't remember it was it was
literally two thousand and four. She was doing back Yeah,

(33:09):
what she doing there? It was it was upper body.
Oh my god. Those are those are formative time. Those
are really good, well done. Thank you laid the question.
Wow I was dressed about that. Really. Yeah, those are wonderful,
wonderful answers. Thank you, thank you. No, I'm so honored

(33:29):
that you think so you know what you absolutely have
to go see. And I talked about this, the less
them because I sort of went on a Broadway tear
and I saw everything. You have to see the new
Parade Revival. I know, Ari, you will be really moved.
You'll have a great time. He is. I was just
listening the cast album Kids for the new revival. It's

(33:51):
just so so good. I think Jason Robert Brown is
Sondheim ascending, you know what I like. I think he
is so good. I feel like he has like really
revolutionized like and like mastered this new like contemporary musical
theater sound. And this is like his first thing. This
really holds up. It's beautiful. It's one of his best
I love pretty much everything he does. But you gotta

(34:14):
make this end bow in YouTube, Like, if there's any
free time, this is the one I'm dying to see
that I'm dying to see Merrily We Roll Along, And
I'm new Sean Hayes play that ran in Chicago, where
a friend of mine said it was astounding, and it's
about to open on Broadway. It's called Goodnight Oscar. I
think Goodnight Oscar. Yeah, I hear, it's amazing. I also
want to see that one. And also Jessica Chestein in

(34:35):
a Dolls House my college friend Amy Herstock wrote the
new translation adaptation, did well, I hear great things about it.
Something happens at the end that is such a gag
Like it's like, I can't even spoil it. But if
anyone out there has seen Jessica Chestin in Nadalla's house,
what happens at the end of the play, like the
way that Nora like spoiler alert for a doll's house.

(34:57):
But even though this is the hashtag actually smarted up episode,
if you've made it this far in this episode of
Last Culture, you know a doll's house, I'm gonna assume. Oh,
but the way that Nora leaves Mama, it might as
well have been a death drop. There is there a trapdoor,
all of the witch throwing the beans and into the woods,
just you know, a screech and a puff of smoke. Wait, really,

(35:19):
did I just call it? Is that what happened? I
can't confirm her denid trap, but your eyes went wide
wide at the recommenition. Now, Matt, I have a question,
do we think Annalie is like because this is her
what's at least her second time doing sondheime, because she
did Sunning the party. Yeah, she's like the new girlie

(35:42):
or a new girl today. Yep. I think that is
very exciting that there is. I don't even know if
we can call her new anymore. She's like she is,
of course, no, she's But what I think what Bowen
is saying is like, there comes a time when like
you become like, yes, musical theater beloved, and but you
have done to Sonteime's faby, Yeah you saw him multiple times.
It's basically like, what what's the status? Yes? And I

(36:04):
think that's important. She're saying that in the same way
that we refer to like Bernadette Patty ethel Bet, where
we should start just saying Annalie maybe, which is crazy,
and also Donna Murphy too, don't forget that conversation. Like, honestly,
I will say this, if ever you see an interview
with the musical theater actress and they say, well, the
first time I met Steve and they referred to him

(36:26):
as Steve, that's a tell. That is a huge talent.
I think it is so funny when these women say
Steve because it's just so familiar and it makes me laugh.
But um, what I will say is that he definitely
signed off on her casting and liked her casting. I
believe I read something in the New York Times that
said he was to see a reading of it and

(36:47):
then of Sweeney Sweet. Oh yeah, yeah, Like this has
been in development now for long enough that he was
aware of it, knew of it, and signed off on it.
But the interesting thing I found in that article was
that this actually was his most personal piece. Yes, I
was so surprised to read that. Yes, we're saying that,

(37:08):
you know, Steve, this is the story of your life,
and he maybe wasn't even conscious of that or didn't
want to necessarily admit that. But I mean minus the
eating people right exactly, besides the murder and the you know, annibalism. Yeah,
and they having rumpled bed with a woman rumpled beddingized.
But yeah, this idea that he had been done wrong
by the world. M I'm not sure how I feel

(37:31):
about his unfinished musical being staged. I don't know. Yeah,
it's hard. We'll see, we'll see. I don't know much
about that. Actually, it's based on a like Bunuel short story.
I might be wrong, it's like a Lorca Baby. It's
based on a work of fiction, and he'd been working
on it for a really long time. But I don't
know much clearly more than we do. But I saw

(37:53):
that headline too, and I was like, Okay, okay, let's
reserve judgment. I guess we have the goal, and I'm
actually gonna have some goal right now. I have to
ask you a question, and I think it's going to

(38:14):
be a pointed question. All right, here's the thing I
have to say to you. So I was at the
Kennedy Center and I watched your set, just no big deal,
you were hosting your show. I came because I was
headlining with Henry the next night, and I watched your
set and you were performing a song and you said
there was a lyric in your song that was like,
and some people watch Housewives sort of roll with your

(38:35):
eyes at me. And I thought, this, motherfucker, yes, is
being elitist towards me. So here, I was performing the
Noel Coward classic Why Do the Wrong People Travel? But
having been written in the middle of the twentieth century,
there are some lyrics that are quite dated, of course,
and so I replaced some with more updated lyrics. However,

(38:59):
I think you're playing that quote out of context because
the full line was while the right people stay back
home and watch Real Housewives. So in the dichotomy of
the wrong people traveling and the right people staying back home, you,
my friend, are the right people so resting, you should
be out there travel. Okay, good. Here's my question to you.

(39:22):
What's the quote unquote trashiest or lowest culture that you enjoy?
I want to know in your opinion. I mean, I
was an early Housewives watcher, but I kind of gave
up on that. Love is blind. I mean, okay, you know, okay, wait,
it's not trashy. But my friend Alan, I have to
shout out The Traders the best reality competition television show

(39:44):
I've seen in at least ten years. I binged it.
I savored every second of that show. The Traders. Wait.
Not to like connect too many dots, but the fact
that you're good friends with Alan and that you officiated
Alex Wagner's wedding between the most I'm the Traders. Oh
my god. As a child, I wanted so badly to

(40:05):
be on The Mole back when Anderson Cooper hosted it.
There's such a journey with the Mole for people our age.
I think like The Mole hit at a very specific
important time. I hope I'm not divulging any secrets here,
but I actually had a conversation with Alex Wagner when
she was considering whether or not to take the Mole
and it would have meant going to Australia and quarantining

(40:26):
and being away from her kids. And I was like,
do you have to do this? I do not delude
myself into thinking that is why. She said yes, I'm sure,
But I was like, this is the dream, this is dream.
She and I were on the same episode of Seth Myers,
and I was like, I have to go say hello

(40:46):
to her. I'm such a huge fan. And so we
talked and yes, she I think she even volunteered that.
She was like, I was really debating going, but I
think she was saying, like I was so much happy
that I was in Australia instead of America during any races.
Oh wow, I think the insurrection. I think January six,
twenty twenty one, she was in Australia shooting the Mole.

(41:07):
Maybe I'm getting weird when you're a news person. So
NPR was going through budget cuts then, is going through
budget cuts now? I was on furlough on January sixth,
and so I was literally not allowed to check my
work email or do any work. And it was so
strange as a news person to be watching what was
unfolding and just thinking like, should I be doom scrolling

(41:28):
right now? Should I turn off the TV and go
for a walk? Should I like, I can't do what
I would instinctually go do, which is like help tell
the story of what's happening. And I just found myself
so kind of like a drift and at a loss
for like, how can I be helpful? How can I
be useful, Which, frankly is one of the things that
I love about being a journalist is that whenever there's
a moment when it's like everybody wants to do something

(41:49):
and doesn't know what to do, as a journalist, I
know what my job is, what I'm supposed to do.
And so that was a strange experience for me on
January sixth, especially as it was unfolding like a thirty
minute walk from my house not that far from Capitol Hill.
I mean, look, it was a tragic moment. It was
horrible for democracy, for society, people physically and emotionally and
psychologically suffered. For me, as a journalist who wasn't able

(42:12):
to practice journalism. It was just it was very odd. Yeah, yeah,
I can't imagine because something had to kick in, but
then you have to like completely stifle it. Yeah. And
at some point when I've been listening to NPR with
CNN on mute for the last two hours, it's like, well,
do I turn away now, Like do I go take
the dogs for a walk and listen to Less culturestas

(42:34):
you know, Yeah, there were no help. Yes, the answer
to that question is always yes. What if literally like
all the journalists had been locked out of their accounts
and only Lost Culture could report On January sixth, it
was just like, we are here on the ground and
what we're seeing is just disgusting. I would love to
hear that commentary. People would pay money for that commentary

(42:56):
that honestly though, like in a real way, like to
be have to be a spect theater. There is really
tough when you have the talent and you have the
experience that you have to be able to like, you know,
especially I remember watching it and there was an element
of knowing exactly what was happening, but being so confused.
And I think that that is because we've never seen
anything like this before in the United States, right, and

(43:17):
so it does need to be explained, like what we
are seeing is an insurrection. This is the definition of
what that means. This is how this could end, This
is how much danger these people are in. So it
does fall to people like you to be able to
get that information across. And I will also say one
of the most moving and stirring parts of your book,
Best Strangers in the World, is you talking about your

(43:39):
experience with nine to eleven and literally speaking on the
phone to people in a journalistic capacity who then would
perish you know, I guess minutes or hours later. Just
that had to be that has to I don't stay
with you forever is not even the words. It has
to be formative as a person, well, it was formative.

(44:03):
I mean at that point I was sort of the
most junior person on the staff of Morning Edition. I
was working attempt contract. I was working overnights from one
to nine am, and I was actually going to go
home early because I couldn't stay awake. And then we
started seeing smoke coming out of the World Trade Center,
and so my job was just to call people in
the towers and put them on the air and say
what are you seeing? And what I realized that day

(44:27):
was so at that point, Bob Edwards was the host
of Morning Edition, and he was not a person who
spoke more than he needed to. He was a very
kind of taciturn person. He's still alive. He is a
very taciturn person. And I remember when we went off
the air at Knew that day and handed off to
the next show, he said, in these moments when everyone
is wondering what they can do, we know what our

(44:50):
role is. We know what our job is. And I
remember everybody was lining up to donate blood, and as
a gay man, I was not allowed to donate blood,
and I was like, well, here something I can do.
And so I would come in for the next several nights.
I would like work from nine pm to twelve noon,
and one of my jobs was to write short obituaries

(45:11):
that would be slotted in when segments came in like
a little bit short, and so they were like thirty
seconds to a minute. And I remember I found the
story of these two men and their son who their
son was a toddler. He was one of the youngest
people to die that day, and they were flying back
from a vacation, and I remember writing an obituary for

(45:33):
the three of them and referring to them as a family,
and just thinking, you know, that is something that somebody
else in this position might not have done. And I
felt like, even though it was this tiny, little thirty
second thing that just slotted into like a hole in
the show, I felt like I had left a small
fingerprint on the record of that day, and I thought like,

(45:55):
this is a way I can be useful. This is
a way I can actually help shape the stories we tell,
not as an activist, as a journalist, but as a
journalist who brings my own experience and history and identity
to the world. So yeah, I was a really profound
turning point from unbelievable. You write in the book about
how like starting out you would work on obituary packages.

(46:20):
That is like a fun peculiarity about like journalism that
I find interesting is that like when like our friend
Henry Melcher started working at MSNBC and when we're in college,
mat that was like one of the things I learned.
He was like, no, like it's so funny in these
and like my sister would like come home from like
Bloomberg or whatever. She was working for Bloomberger at the time,
and she was like, yeah, like all these news networks
have these opit packages. Do you think that probably like

(46:42):
honed some. Absolutely. The great thing about an obituary is
it's basically a profile. Yeah, and journalists write profiles all
the time, but this is a profile that you don't
have to do on deadline because the person is still alive.
And for me, as a beginning journalist, it gave me
an opportunity to work with NPR editors on important stories
that didn't step on any beat. Reporters toes and so

(47:05):
I could like gain those skills and build that expertise
and do as many edits as I needed to do
for stories that you know, might air a month or
a year or five years down the road. And it
also helped the editors get to know my skills and
my interests so that later on they would start pitching
freelance stories to me that were not obituaries that were

(47:26):
on deadline. And so it was a really important stepping
stone for me along the way. And as I write
in the book, Hume Cronan was like one of the
first big ones who you know, he was married to
Jessica Tandy. They both won like a lifetime achievement, Tony.
I think they were on Broadway and a million things.
They were in films like Cocoons. Yeah, and so yeah,
I'll always think fondly of Hume Cronin, who had the

(47:48):
courtesy of dying shortly after I did that obituary, so
it actually got on the air. So nice of him
to sit on the shelf. You got published. Yeah exactly. Wait,
I'm not done with the Mole and Traders. Oh yeah,
yes about it. First of all, Alex Wagner energetically is

(48:09):
so perfect for that job. But then another person I
could see being good at something like that is you.
I would, in a heartbeat, in a heartbeat, anyone who
is making a glam reality show set in some castle. Look,
I don't want to be eating worms. I'm not interested

(48:30):
in having Cockroe to spill on my head. But put
me in some like fancy James Bondish get up and
telling twenty desperate people what to do. Yes, signed the up. Yeah.
Like what I had heard was Alan had the best
time doing it, Like Henry was saying that. He came
back and was like, you know, I'm not going to

(48:50):
do my Alan coming. But it was, you know, like
he was he was so great that he had the
best time, and that he was thrilled that they were
getting a second season and the absolutely Yeah. And you
know most of those clothes were his really yeah. I
mean like would add a sash or a beret, roach
or something, but like they were mostly his clothes. But

(49:12):
something tells me for season two they're likely to have
a bigger costume budget, given that there was an entire
New York Times feature just about the clothes that Alan
wears in that show. Yeah, but that is like an
important like it's not even like an ornamental thing. It's
like it's an important thing about the visual language of
that show, which makes it to stink a little everything else.
The thing that kind of burst the bubble a little
bit for me was learning that none of them actually

(49:33):
slept at the castle. They slept at a like crappy
airport hotel offsite. I was gonna say, that makes total sense,
That makes total sense, but also it makes it seem
so much less fun. And Alan had a little cottage
that was not far from the castle. Nobody slept in
the castle. Rummer, Yeah, there is a level of like
you want to believe they're all in there, but then
I guess that's easier to produce what everyone would tell

(49:55):
the movie magic. Oh but also I heard that one
of them who made it to the finals. I'm not
I don't know if this is public. I don't think
it's a secret, but I'm just not going to name
them tested positive for COVID on literally the day everybody
was supposed to fly home, and then had to quarantine
in that shitty hotel for another like ten days or
two weeks. Yeah, after they had wrapped on this on
the show, after they had rapped on the show, I

(50:16):
thought you were going to say that they should say
tested positive and showed up that I want to find
out if I win. Although one contestant tested positive in
the middle of the run and just closed on their Instagram.
That that's why they like dropped out and disappeared. That's why. Yeah,
that's crazy that it tests positive way through the run
and like no one else that's and that sucks. It's

(50:39):
giving Matt Rodgers in Mexico City. I actually did get
COVID one month ago thanks to Alan's husband. We all
had like an upstate cat Skills weekend, and I was
so grateful that it happened one month before my book
tour because I was able to host All Things Considered
from home. I sounded like I had a cold, but
I felt fine. And now I'm like maximum antibodies, kingponging

(51:03):
from city to city, shaking hands with strangers and not
worrying about getting COVID. That's are you still enjoying? And
this is like obviously like don't You're never going to
say no, but like, are you still invigorated and excited
about All Things Considered? It's been gears And I wonder,
like because whenever you do something for a very long time,
and like it has an identity and it has a

(51:23):
way that it's done. I know us with this podcast,
we're always trying to find ways to make it exciting
for us and we've succeeded. Like are you still succeeding
in doing that? Here's what I love about hosting All
Things Considered? Is it even after six years? I know
when I wake up each morning that I'm going to
go to bed knowing about something that I didn't know
when I started the day. Like I can be curious,

(51:44):
I can ask questions I can follow my curiosity wherever
it may lead, and the show is formatted so that
I can do some big, ambitious project where I travel
from Senegal to Morocco to Spain, connecting the dots between
climate change, migration and extremism. And then I can interview
the incredible South African pop star Nakane about their new album, which,

(52:07):
by the way, is my soundtrack of the Summer. It
comes out later. Nakane. They released an album a couple
of years ago that included an amazing track called New
Brighton that was a collab with Annie and it was
just a new album. It's called Bastard Jargon. I'm obsessed.
There are a couple tracks out already. One of the
tracks is a collab with Perfume Genius. Put it on.

(52:29):
It will make your life. Were summer anthem, queer summer,
non binary, South African influenced London based pop dance extravaganza.
You're gonna love it? Wowkay damn. Anyway, So the point
is hosting All Things Considered allows me to do both.
And yes, I can be like hashtag actually smart, and

(52:51):
then I can queen out with Nakane and a combination
that's hard to find. Wow, this is very I'm gonna
like really try to again connect dots. But this is
on a meta level, Like I think this is like
the thing about the book, the thing about you, is
that there's so much like connective stuff here between, Like

(53:15):
the way you're able to like bridge something from like
the way you currently are now is like a journalist
quote unquote like buttoned up gay guy in DC, but
like you like trace it actually like your days in
high school, like being like queer, even though like that
wasn't the word you used back then. Yeah, to bridge
that thing, and to bridge like the things between like
all of your stories, and to bridge the thing between

(53:36):
like you having these like journalistic boundaries and reconciling that
with the fact that you have to be vulnerable on
stage sometimes. That was my big takeaway of the book,
is that like you can like really shift between these modes.
I'm so glad to hear that that was what you
took away from it, because I realized kind of in
writing it that the through line of my whole life

(53:57):
has been trying to make connections and trying to help
people appreciate similarities and build bridges across chasms of difference,
and the quality that I admire most in people is
the ability to make those unexpected connections, bring people together,
introduce them, you know, build opportunities for synthesis, and and

(54:19):
so you know, like when I was in Mexico City
and Henry said, you have to meet up with my
friends Matt and Bowen, it was that kind of a
thing where I was like, these different worlds coming together
and interesting people connecting in a foreign place Like that
is the thing that recharges my batteries. And so whether
it's performing with Pink Martini or doing a show with
Alan Coming, or reporting the news on the radio from

(54:41):
a war zone, I'm just really glad that's what you
took away from the book, because I feel like that
is kind of the underlying like bass note of the
whole thing. Code switching, international icon, international codes. Wait a minute,
the Queer Molest show should be called like code switch

(55:02):
or something, you know what I mean? Bo our host
Matt and I can ep or be in it. Can
we please make this happen? Code Switch? That is the
name of an NPR podcast. Damn shit fuck. That's all right.
It can be a reality show too, It can totally
be We just got to put an X in it somewhere,
so it's different. Like here's what I'll say, because I'll

(55:23):
like make a joke and be like, yeah, I want
to go on Survivor. I actually want to go on Traders.
I really want to be on Traders. Boh, And you'd
be an amazing trader. I would not be an amazing trader.
I would be an amazing faithful. You'd be incredible faithful.
Here's the thing. I've played Mafia with friends over the
course of an evening and I get so fucking stressed
out and like my blood pressure rises and that's over,

(55:44):
you know, two four hours. I try to imagine doing
it over weeks, and I think I might literally have
an aneurysm. That's why whenever the traders like that's why
they all like fucking break down into sobs when they leave,
especially the traders when they get like the ones who
got found out spoiler alert, they're like sobbing by the
time they go. I'm like, yes, because you've been holding

(56:05):
you've been like holding it together. It's literally and you
don't have any interaction with anyone else. Right when you
were a trader, you were experiencing what it means to
be posted. And I hope that the straight traders are
really considering that what they're experiencing for two weeks many
of us experienced for many years. And you need to

(56:26):
write I write this. We need to see this published
in the Atlantic, New York Magazine and the New York first.
It's that good. First I'm going to publish it as
a rule of culture. This is rule of culture number ninety.
When you are a trader, you are and I know
it eats them up because it's very hard. It's it's

(56:47):
very hard, meaningful that the only non straight white male
trader was three period. Like someone who like like is like,
you know, visibly a very specific like identity. Let's say yep,
and so she knows how to like huh in a
way code switch? Maybe. Wow. Look, if you're going to

(57:10):
write a think piece, you need more than one idea.
So this is I like where this is going. First
of all, co authored by line, he writes the foreword
to the published piece. But no, but like I have
to say, if these people on Traders did not know
who Surree Fields was and what she was capable of,
then that's your problem. She is an iconic four time

(57:34):
survivor contestant who has been robbed of the win at
least once in a real way. And I will say this,
the most cathartic moment for someone who loves reality television
was watching Surree Fields do that to Aria Leindike Junior.
Because there is not a more unsung hero of reality

(57:56):
television than Surree Fields, and there is not a more
despicable act than the one that Ari lyoned, like Junior
committed on his season of The Bachelor. So to watch
that happen in realel so Ari basically proposed to one
woman and then Becca, and then three weeks later, with
the cameras in tow, came to our house and said,

(58:19):
I I'm actually picking the other girl. And if you remember,
Cecily did this on SNL, Cecily played this girl and
they did a whole bit of like the cameras following around,
like they were like outside the bathroom draw while she's
sobbing and like Ari's there, like Becca, you have to
come out and She's like fuck you. And basically that

(58:39):
was as low as it possibly gets a show like
The Bachelor. And so to watch the Refields look him
in the eyes and said, you don't deserve this. And
then do we think she knew that? Do we think
she had seen that season of the Bachelor. I think
she's seen everything. I don't think that's why she made
the decision. I think she made the decision to be like,
you're a trader because she was like, fuck you, you

(59:02):
were not coming into the last second and splitting this
money with me. This is my money. There was an
interview where she was like, if it had been two
million dollars, maybe I would have shared it, but two
fifty k No, No, absolutely, they need to raise that
prize pot too. I'll say, I agree. I want to
start a go fund me to like but that's you
want to be Cia. How much just how much does

(59:24):
Sea give depends year to year? Do you know about this, Ari,
I have no idea what you're talking about. I know
who Sia is. I do not know about you know,
the iconic Sia. She watches Survivor every season and just
picks her favorite contestants and just sends them money Like
that is a thing that is I And it started
years ago when she came to like a like a

(59:45):
Survivor finale reunion, and Jeff Probes was like, my friend
Sia is in the audience and she loves the show
and she wants to come on stage, and so she
was and she just comes on stage with her wig
and was like I love this shine. That was my um.
But she was to do a better Cia than An Allen.

(01:00:06):
Sometimes I can do Allan, but only in private and
no one will ever know. Well, but basically, like, yes,
CIA is like another prize pot that you can win.
It's like if you impressa you get a good edit up.
I love It's the wild card. It's the prize, the
wild card to see a moment. And so Bond wants
to be that for Traders. Yeah, I want to be
the Traders. That is a whole waiting to be filled.

(01:00:29):
Oh yeah, period, honey. I hope Alex get to do
another season of them. Do we know is the Mull renewed?
I have no information on that. I feel like it
was no information. I thought it was too I mean,
here's the thing. It's weird because like Netflix is the
Mole and Peacock is Traders. I do feel I felt
more conversation around Traders. Oh absolutely. And also Traders was

(01:00:53):
big fish, small pond. The Mole was a small fish,
big pond, Like nobody was talking about Peacock before, say,
and and this is such terrible synergy, but they did
send me like a huge care package full of peacocks swag.
And it's like and then literally Susan Rovener, head of NBC,

(01:01:14):
emails me pictures of the wheelhouses of Miami. In the
photos like they were like, it was the day I
want to talking about how much I love Peacock. She like, Who's, like,
thank you so much your photos from the like the
Miami arena that we just shot today. Anyway, Oh what
I want that? I want a care package from Peacock.
I want a care package with those little packets you
can throw into the fire to make it burn green

(01:01:36):
or red. The drama of that so good. I love that.
You guys need to watch UK Traders, I've heard. Yeah.
UK Traders doesn't have Alan, but it has this other
iconic woman hosting it. I'm forgetting her name. I'm losing
her name, but she's like a thing in British culture.
She's amazing. Wait are there reality stars in that one?
Or no? It's all regular people, which I actually is

(01:01:57):
My big note for US Traders is I think it
should just be all reality people because I think that
they get what's necessary of them. Oh, Claudio Winkleman is
the host of UK Traders and she is a story
that's never been told. I love her her bangs, I
love it all. I love her energy. She's like Alan

(01:02:20):
is very like dramatic, and Claudia is very British and god,
I love that. So okay, we're gonna make code switch
with an X. We can first option to peacock and
after that we'll see where it cost. Yep. I love this, really,
I actually love this. I think it's time for Bowen
and I to co host a reality show. It's pastime.

(01:02:42):
It is long past all three of us. I'm gonna say,
I'm not entitled too much in this life and in work,
but I think all three of us deserve to host
that kind of show. Can I tell you I actually
have a concept for this, Bowen and I'm gonna sideboat
with you because I think I've come up with an
idea for us to co host show. Yes, but it's
really good and I actually do want to pitch it,

(01:03:04):
and I think it's really good. This is I remember
was it Otko who her? I don't think so hard.
It was about friendship reality shows. Yeah, this is the
show that she's been long. It's not necessarily that it's more,
but there's it's a twist show. So it's like you
think it's one thing and then it's another, like a
Milf Manner exciting. I don't really it's like Milf Manner,

(01:03:28):
I got it. Have you watched Milf Manner? You know,
I'm so sorry. I'm too afraid. I'm I'm like, it's
it's gonna be too too disturbing, you know, it gets
really it's the darkest version of what you think. It's
gonna be very fast. It's hard to come back from
abistle stuff like, yeah, truly abistle. Abyssle is a Yiddish

(01:03:52):
word that means a little bit abistle, just a bistle.
That's funny, just abistle, just a bistle. Also a front
runner for the title of up. This episode's full of them.
I think it's b I S S e L b
I S E L. That's not what I thought I
would have thought. B I S T L E. Oh,
like a bristle without the R. And that's what gets me.
Cut out the spelling be like a motherfucker is the

(01:04:23):
book out now. It is yes audio book as well.
I narrate the audio book. If you like me telling
stories in your ears. You can get the best strangers
in the world on audio book. And why wouldn't they
want that? I mean, maybe because they get two hours
of it every day on all things considered, but I
don't know because they love Can I ask you a question,
did you find the writing of the book a difficult process?

(01:04:46):
I feel embarrassed saying this, but no, for me, it
didn't think really really unenjoyable process. Um, it was just
like one step at a time, one bit at a time,
and then you know, I just gave myself permission to
not be great in first draft, and then I would
set it aside for a few weeks or months and
go back and make it, you know, hopefully better. And

(01:05:06):
I just right now feel so god like fortunate and
satisfied to hear the way these stories are connecting with
people and the people are finding meaning on them. It's
really a very unusual experience for me that I'm kind
of just trying to save her. It's really excellent. I mean,
I think one of the big reasons people connect with
you is that you find the angle that like cuts

(01:05:32):
through the noise, and like the way you talked about
Pulse was like the perfect example. It's like you did
a story about like people going out the next day
in Orlando to Parliament House. It's like, oh, but like
what other what other news outlet is doing that? You know,
Like it was probably just like several days, if not
like a couple of weeks of coverage about like the
victims obviously and like necessary story storytelling in that way.

(01:05:55):
But like I think the fact that like you would
go to like these ours in Orlando immediately after and
like talk to people going and why is really beautiful.
And I mean that particular story, like I knew what
that place meant. Like I'd been going to gay bars
my whole life. I had gone to gay bars in Orlando,

(01:06:17):
and like it wasn't until the very end of that
reporting experience where I was talking to this guy who
was editor of the free gay weekly paper in Orlando.
He has since passed away. His name was Billy Mains,
but I was telling him like, oh, yeah, years ago,
I went bar hupping in Orlando and I met these
bartenders who were so sweet, and they took me out
the next night and that had been twelve years before

(01:06:39):
the Pulse nightclub shooting, and so I didn't remember the
name of the bar, and I was sure that it
had closed. But Billy Mains said what bar was it?
And I said, I don't remember. I'm sure it's long closed.
And he said, well, what was the layout, like? What
did it look like? Because he lived in Orlando forever,
and so I described what it looked like where you
sort of walk in and there's a dance floor on
your left and a sort of bar on your right,

(01:07:01):
and he said that was Pulse. And I just in
that moment, realized that like this place I had been
reporting on all week that I knew I had some
connection to, just from it being a gay bar, which
is a place that I had spent so much time
in my life, like, it was not only a place
that I had an abstract connection to, it was a
place that I had a personal, immediate connection too. And

(01:07:22):
I looked on my phone for the name of that
bartender who I had met twelve years earlier, and his
name was in there with an email address that set
at Pulse Orlando dot com. There were two bartenders, one
had moved to Chicago, and was no longer working there.
The other was still working at Pulse, not on the
night that the massacre happened. But it just made me
realize that, like as a journalist, I can approach stories

(01:07:44):
as an outsider, and there's value to that, but also
the experiences that I have, my life, my history, my
perspective on the world is not something that I have
to set aside and put in a box when I
go out and tell stories. It's something that I can
bring to the stories I tell that can make them
richer and deeper and more nuanced and more meaningful, incredible,

(01:08:04):
It gives you like the take that really does again
like cut through something that like cuts through the din
of like what everyone is already hearing over and over again.
I just always ask myself, how can I make listeners
who are busy doing other things hear this? How can
I make them try to, you know, stay parked in
the driveway even though they're late to pick up their

(01:08:26):
kids or whatever the case may be, because they need
to hear the end of the story. What's the way
I can tell this story that people are going to say, Oh,
I see what those people are going through and relate
to them. And don't just see them as somebody other,
somebody far away, somebody different, but somebody who I have
a lot more in common with than I might realize.
Do you consume a lot of other NPRS stuff like

(01:08:50):
are you an NPR person outside of working there? Well,
I graze widely. I mean I try to know what's
on Morning Edition each day, and I try to this
and all things considered every evening when I'm not hosting,
And that's a total of like four hours of content.
So the rest of the stuff that I consume is
sort of a little bit of a lot of things.
Gotcha you listen away way, don't tell me, just sure do.

(01:09:13):
In fact, my Chicago book event is with Peter Sagel legend.
I just had a baby, and he's so sweet and
wonderful to do my book event with me even though
he has a little tiny child. And King, I'm doing
that show this week. You are, yeah, Chicago, Matt Rogers,
Mary the lead? Is this your first time? Second time? Oh,

(01:09:35):
We're gonna have so much fun. I love it. I
love doing the show. They don't do well on it,
but I think I bring a good energy. Bowen would
absolutely slay it. I did it over zoom. But like
the thing is, Um, you don't have to be good
at it to have fun. No, no, it's a blast.
People don't listen for the knowledge. That's not why people
are tuning in and scheidenfreude. People also not knowing what

(01:09:59):
the fuck is, which is not necessarily true. Um okay,
So I think we have to segue into I don't
Think so Honey, which is the segment of our podcast
where Bowen Yang, Matt Rodgers, and the guests. On this
episode it is Ari Shapiro. They all take one minute
to rant it on something in culture that absolutely deserves
a pulling down from the perch and a slapping in

(01:10:23):
the head. I have something. It is topical. We haven't
yet discussed this major moment in culture that is in process,
but I have I don't think so honey about it.
I know what this says, I intrinsically notes who I am.
Do you know what this is? I can't wait. I
think so yeah. I have a feeling this is Matt Rodgers.
I don't think so honey. As time starts new, I

(01:10:43):
don't think so honey. Your notes on the Era's set list,
The Errors Tour setlist we're giving notes on it. Okay,
I understand there are some odd choices Miss Americana and
the Heartbreak prints as the opener, listen, all she wanted
to say was it's been a long time, and then
she segues into what should And I predicted that she
would open this concert with months and Months and months

(01:11:06):
ago summer. That is essentially the first song that opens
the show. I don't want to hear that you miss
Sparks Fly. We are getting the speak Now era across
with Enchanted. She comes out in the blackgown, gives you
the moment we have felt, the speak Now era. She
gives you full on reputation. She gives you everything you
need from en eighty nine, I don't want to hear

(01:11:26):
from nine. We get all the hits. I don't want
to hear that you miss the self titled. The self
titled as an era is encompassed with Fearless. We don't
need the self title. If you're lucky, maybe she'll give
you Tim McGraw on that one song she does, which
is a different song every single time. Era's toward no notes.
I am watching on YouTube and going three times this summer.

(01:11:46):
I don't think so one of your notes. That's one
man in Vegas. She's saying our song. And you know what,
maybe what I hope for everyone out there is that
if they are the types of people that want another
speak now moment, that she gives you sparks fly that
who knows, maybe you'll even be the lucky one period
that didn't even mean to do that. And also get

(01:12:08):
dear John, I think back to December. I would love
but there's so much acoustic, ready made stuff. Maybe you'll
get one. But listen, it isn't the discourse. The point.
Isn't the hating the point? You know? Yeah, And here's
the thing. I am anti sicko fans. Okay, I believe
that fandom is dangerous because I believe that fandom is dictatorship.

(01:12:32):
And I believe that intense fandom actually defeats the purpose
of even enjoying things, because if you can't actually swarm,
if you can't talk about and enjoy and like pick
apart the things you like and also drag and be
a little nasty sometimes like you're all you are is
just an unhelpful clabber on in discussion, and then it

(01:12:54):
all gets like labber on, you're a clabber on. Okay,
I couldn't find the word but the word sycophant. And
I only have so many words that I say yeah, yeah, yeah,
but you know what I'm saying, No, totally, totally, And
but I'm the kind of person I always have something
to say. I always have that. I don't think there's
ever been a tailor album or tailor moment in culture

(01:13:15):
that I've not been like, this is great, but this like,
I always have something to say with the aerostour, She's
out there giving you three hours and fifteen minutes of
constant entertainment, giving you the whole thing. She said, I
know it was difficult to get these seats. I know
it was difficult to get these tickets. I'm gonna make
it a moment you'll never forget. I don't want to
hear notes on a three hour and fifteen minutes set list.

(01:13:37):
I just don't. Matt. I have a question for you
for your three viewings of this performance. Do you have
a plan for the scale of sobriety to anybriation, how
you plan to experience each of the three You know,
I think that what Bone and I have found recently
is that mushrooms are our girl for all three or
for one of the three or like or take them
an one hour into the three hour set, Like, what's

(01:13:59):
the strategy? What was our cocktail when we saw Chromatica?
Chromatica was RUMs and cokes. It was RUMs and cokes,
and then it was I think we got beers there. Yeah,
but we also had and what I mean by cocktail
was drug cocktail. So we were a little bit I know,
I know, I know, I know, I know, but it
was rum and coke at the bar like pre game.

(01:14:19):
And then we took like mushroom chocolates like before we
got in the car. Yeah, and then once we got
there we ordered beers. That was they were holes. That
was the full journey. And I would describe the way
we felt that Chromatica or should I say on Chromatica
as one of the happiest nights in my life. Well
then you gotta reapply that serum. Yeah. Yeah, I'm beyond

(01:14:42):
excited for this. Like, and we haven't talked about Aerostaur,
but it I've been watching the YouTube videos. It looks
so fun. Wait, Bowen, was that what you thought Matt
was gonna do? Was that where you thought he was going?
He was gonna talk about the Gwyneth's trial. I thought
it was like, oh my god, new episode. Start from here.

(01:15:03):
Trial trial is its own episode like that to the
Gills with the Gwyneth trial was such it was like
lost half a day skiing, well, I lost half a
day sking what was your name? Christen? Christ I was
gonna say. I was gonna say, Kristen, you skied into
my fucking back. Is the new from Aaron Brockovich, That

(01:15:24):
asshole faston my fucking nap. You ski directly into my
fu bang back. What a legend. It was unbelievable to consume.
And it never stopped, like the hits kept coming all
day when she was on trial. And I don't think
it's over right, like I think it's currently maybe maybe,
but it's the apple. Martin hasn't yet been called to

(01:15:46):
the stand. They will live forever in our hearts. It
will live. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that it's
happening that they allowed cameras in the courtroom. I'm grateful
they didn't inflict those courtroom sketch artists on us. No, no,
we don't want to see Gwyneth dune and wax pass
stelt chalk. She I don't think she did. I think
she wanted the cameras in there. Yeah good. I think

(01:16:06):
she said, everyone looking, how ridiculous this is. She knows
her audience, she knows how to play to them. Unbelievable.
But wow, I understand why you thought that. Bow And
it really shouldn't have been that. But I have to say,
like people discussing what they're missing from the aerostore of
a three hour, fifteen minute performance, I'm like, you, guys,
come on, she can't do the full discography. She cannot,

(01:16:28):
All right, So, bow and Yang, are you ready for
your I don't think so, honey. I am okay, this
is Bowen yangs. I don't think so, honey. His time
starts now. I don't think so, honey. A bookmark made
of metal, Oh you mean a nice you mean a
switch blade? I was reading I've been reading very recently,

(01:16:48):
including with Ari's book, with a metallic bookmark that I'm
not going to name the company that makes them, but
they might as well have been Lockheed Martin, because these
are weapons that can kill. These our weapons that can
take lives. And I had many close calls with this
blade of a bookmark, and I said enough, I posted

(01:17:08):
in the hotel trash bin, which is we've discussed on
this podcast. Those hotel trash kins are too small to realize.
This is a sharp spin. This is for needles. This
is for bookmarks that are knives. And if you're making
bookmarks with that are metallic, there are going to be casualties.
Someone's going to die and there will be consequences period.

(01:17:31):
Trust trust you will be done with blocking Martin, stop
it with these bookmarks. Any company that's making metallic bookmarks
is locking. Did TSA let you through with that? Somehow?
It was in my carry on? And know it's like,
how is this? I can kill someone with this? I
will kill someone with this. This is going to Cuba,

(01:17:55):
Jesus in a war zone. You could like perform surgery
with it. That's a scalpel owen Hunt probably performed surgery
that I'm I guess you don't watch Gray's Anatomy Me. No, no,
not even during the Golden Age when it actually was prestige.
I actually did not. I am so starry to disappoint
you as a Pacific Northwesterner. I know, I know, I know,

(01:18:19):
I watched Portlandia. Does that count as a Pacific Northwest show, Yes, desolutely?
Is that from an earlier era at Twin Peaks? Also?
You know, yes, oh yeah, isn't X Files around that area?
I mean, I watched it when I was a child,
but I don't remember where it was set. I feel
like X Files would make more sense to be in
set in like DC, right because they're dealing with sensitive

(01:18:40):
information those the later seasons. Okay, I will say I
did try to watch X Files once from the beginning,
and I was like, at a different time, it was different.
But they still be making them all, right, do they really? Yeah?
There's like every now and then they'll be like an
X Files movie and everyone's like, oh great, and then
like that. I guess I don't think there's been one

(01:19:00):
for a while. They're not okay, Yeah, I don't know
if that's true. Every once in a while, like in
two thousand and one and two thousand and five, I
feel like, you know, like constantly always in the news,
it's like and the new X Files movie is right
around the corner, and I'm always like, huh, you're thinking
of scream. I think, yeah, that's what it is. Okay,
So Ari, this is the most Are you ready for you?

(01:19:23):
I don't think so, honey. I'm ready, I'm ready. Okay,
this is Ari Shapiro's I don't think so, honey, A
very exciting moment in time, and his time starts now.
I don't think so, honey. Strangers going out of their
way to tell me that I sound sick on the radio.
If you show up to a party and you feel like,
maybe I shouldn't go to this party. I'm a little
worn out. It's been a rough week. And you get

(01:19:43):
to that party and the host of that party greets
you at the door and says, girl, you look tired.
Do you really want to hear that from the host
of your party. No, this is the same thing, but
coming from strangers. If I'm congested on the radio, girl,
I know that I am congested on the radio. And
unless you were reaching out to actively, Uber Eats, Matsible
soup to my house, and no, I am not giving
you my home address. I don't need you to inform

(01:20:04):
me of that which I'm already aware. And furthermore, if
I am hosting with a cold, I am doing so
from a home and you are getting a free product.
It is public radio. Yes I know you can donate
to your local public radio station, but you know ninety
percent of listeners do not. I just made up that statistic,
but I'm pretty sure it's true. So appreciate what you're
getting for free, even if you're getting it with a
little bit of a raspy cough and a little bit

(01:20:26):
of congestion. Because I know that I'm hosting with a cold,
and I don't need you to tell me. I don't
think so, honey, and that and that's one minute, very
well done. Do you get that when you're hosting the
podcast with a cold? Do you get readers? Katie's publicist,
you sound sick? Thanks, I was unaware. Appreciate the info.
What I got recently was it sounds like Matt Rogers

(01:20:48):
has a cocaine problem. Actually, I do kind of appreciate that.
I think that's kind of hilarious. I was like, I
literally responded. I was like, I don't have a cocaine problem,
thank you very much. I have a contained solution. Yeah. Period.
And then they were like, oh, well it sounds so.
I guess you just have a habit that you're on
top of them. And I was like, wow, these dms again,

(01:21:12):
I was like I can't believe this. I was like,
if you must know, I've been sobbing for months, that's
why I sound nasal cocaine. You don't need to say that.
It's so wild. I feel like you two could probably
relate to that. I felt like, absolutely, I'm aware. I
am aware when I sound less than my best and
your y'all's noting it for me is not appreciated as

(01:21:35):
you literally had COVID nineteen. I literally had was hosting
from home and when people were like, you sound like
you shouldn't be on the Arrow's like, no shit, you know,
I guess I'm kind of like, I'm really happy that
you didn't get COVID that day. We were in boyfriendship,
and I'm really happy you didn't get it. But that
makes me feel like I have like limptic COVID. What

(01:21:56):
does that mean My COVID wasn't powerful? Oh oh, I see,
I'm sorry, Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, My COVID wasn't coming
out of my body like that girl. You're sad that
you didn't give someone else COVID. I'm not just someone else.
It would have bonded our friendship. It would have cemented
our meat cute story and then after we went shopping

(01:22:16):
together we got COVID. I know. I was like, I
swear I know you have COVID. Now, I was like,
because I literally I think, oh yeah, I remember. I
started to feel awful, like right after and then took
a test and I was like, oh god, I have
to Ari Shapiro that I gave him curled. Nobody was
surprised to get a text from you saying I have COVID.
We all know how that New Year's that New Year's

(01:22:38):
trip went. It's like, yeah, well that's what comes of it.
Tame though, honestly, were we not on a scale like
oh that night we were pretty tame? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
that's true. Same we had lovely cocktails, yeah, and sushi.
This was coming off of Omicron. Now this is like
still Omicron is still kind of in the air. It
was the Winter Surge. Yeah, it was that time. That

(01:23:02):
was when I guess, you know, one million people got
it all at once. Yeah, you're one in a million,
Matt Rogers. You are because you not only didn't get it,
not only didn't contract COVID that day, but happened to
be you. And you've written this incredible book and it's
called The Best Strangers in the World and it's stories
from a life spent listening, which I think is beautiful.

(01:23:23):
Thank you so much. We absolutely loved it and we've
loved having you. I have loved this conversation the best
ninety minutes of this entire book tour. That is really hyperbolic.
Name one person that this was more fun to do
than talk to that you sent me to call them?
Absolutely not, this is absolutely we're messy here. I want
you to name one person on the tour. I'm gonna

(01:23:45):
just whisper it really quietly, so that with your full throat.
But wow, thank you so much. Pick up the book
by the audio book. It's a really special one. You're
not going to regret. I really was just like, what
what a Gordon in Merching Greeds? Thank you? Everybody check
it up and we Bowen Yang and I we had
every episode of with a song and it's true say

(01:24:15):
it's a cruise. He gave the thumbs up on it.
And if you want to hear more of that, you'll
see the Era's tour. It's the first song, Bye Bye
Bye

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Hosts And Creators

Bowen Yang

Matt Rogers

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